more session rudeness

Subject: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,charley o'neill
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:36 AM

I know that previous threads have covered such topics, but I just wanted to get this off my chest and maybe see what people think.

I returned last night from a British outdoor folk festival. I was looking forward to seeing some of the big acts and checking out lesser known artists on the bill. Aditionally, the festival advertised 'open sessions' and the blurb encouraged folk to bring their instruments and join in . I was well up for jamming, learning tunes, meeting nice people and all the other pleasant vibes which are generally associated with a good session.

However, the one session that I attended put me off playing for the whole weekend. It was dominated by one little gang of twenty - something mates who insisted on playing their own material. Maybe they are a band - don't know. Said characters played perhaps their fastest, flashiest and 'show-offy' tunes to the total exclusion of everyone else. They totally blanked me when I tried to exchange pleasantries.

Initially I was encouraged to play a solo on a song that the guy who was supposedly running the session was singing.Without blowing my own trumpet, I think I made a reasonable fist of this. However the 'cool as folk' brigade did not enjoy my offering (wonder why?), making sly comments, making faces and then immediatly excluding me with two sets of tunes in their aforementioned arrogant style. Said tunes went on forever and were maybe supposed to impress with their Paganini type modulations. ..And to put the tin hat on it, when I stood up for a few seconds, one of the tossers nicked my chair!!!

That was it, game up for me ! I left the session, never to return, confidence knocked. I am not saying, 'how dare these young 'uns not respect me and my music'. The whole thing just knocked my faith in the sociable and communal nature of these things and left a bad taste. The guy running the session should have kept things in order, yeah let people play the odd party piece, but do not let arrogance dominate!

And boy, were this lot arrogant!, I should have realised this earlier, as they seemed to spend most of the rest of the day playing informally - IN FRONT (!) of one of the stages where people were booked to perform!

I am not a beginner, I have nearly 20 years gigging experience with a wide range of people. I am paid to play every weekend. Yep, they suceeded in driving me from a session and I wouldn't mind betting that they are extremely pleased with themselves. I will not stop playing. However, it does take a fair bit of confidence, as a lone player to enter such things. Someone with less experience may in the long run have had their confidence knocked irrepairably

Sorry to go on, maybe I've got too worked up, like I said, I just wanted to get it off my chest...

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:41 AM

Some sessions are run by, or get taken over by, arseholes. They're too full of themselves to care about seeming arrogant. There's not much you can do about it. Ignore them and go and find another session. Life's too short.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Gedpipes
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:55 AM

Hi Charley
You've got it off your chest! I don't think from what you experienced you had many other options other than to walk away. You'll bounce back.
Come up to Beverley at the weekend and you'll have a great time.
Cheers
Ged

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: treewind
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:06 AM

Two good answers already from Howard and Ged.
You really don't need to hang out with people like that, so walking away from the session was no great loss.

One of the things that always comes back to me when session etiquette is discussed on Mudcat is that ALL SESSIONS ARE DIFFERENT! A really good one that suits your own musical style and has nice friendly people in it is a good thing to find, but there's no guarantee it will happen where and when you want it to. That's part of the magic of a really good session - it's so lucky when it happens at all.

Anahata

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:23 AM

I'd be really interested to know which festival it was. Not for salacious reasons, but just because I have a theory that some festivals are more likely, because of lineup and target audience, to attract this sort of behaviour...

I also suspect I may know the culprits. Was it self-penned stuff? Mostly guitars? Or lots of boxes and suchlike?

I think what happens (and this does NOT excuse the rudeness you experienced) is that certain groups of young players meet at a series of festivals each summer - they know each other, they know each other's playing, they like playing together. It can feel a bit exclusive, to be honest. At festivals where there are a number of sessions, that doesn't really matter, because you can go and find another group to play with and leave them to it. But at a festival which doesn't feature many alternatives, I imagine it can be off-putting, as they seem to dominate things.

Just my observation. As i say, it sounds like they were horrid to you, whoever they were.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:28 AM

The thing is, at festivals, there are always people trying to make names for themselves. This is completely understandable, but it is the antithesis of what a session should be about. It's tough, but that's the way it is. People are desperate to get attention, they want gigs, a foot on the ladder, whatever, and they can turn a session into their own showcase. So if you happen to fall in with such a crowd, the best thing to do is what you did: walk away.Don't be too angry, people being hungry for recognition doesn't make them behave very considerately!
And good luck with finding some non-competitive, friendly sessions somewhere and somewhen else.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Zen
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:37 AM

I had this very thing as well at a "session" connected to a festival here in Scotland this weekend. The afternoon session was fine but the evening session comprised the aggressive and arrogant behaviour from a couple of "important" individuals like you described. Nothing was said to me, but it was to others, with an "inner circle" clearly being formed and it was reason enough to pack away the instruments and go. Fortunately, though, I still find this sort of behaviour to be in the minority with the vast majority of sessions being welcoming.

Zen

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Suffolk Miracle
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:38 AM

"The best thing to do is what you did: walk away."

Actually no: the BEST thing is to empty their own drinks over them, bend those of their instruments which bend and cram dog ordure into those that don't.

Sorry. Did I say that out loud?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:46 AM

I find it increasingly difficult to have an idea what to think with session reports here but with this one I'm a bit concerned with the combination of

"the one session that I attended put me off playing for the whole weekend", "I am not a beginner, I have nearly 20 years gigging experience with a wide range of people" and (from what I can gather) the knowledge that there were other sessions.

My own 25+ years of experience might well have told me to forget that one (and I might not have thought much of those involved) but it would not have put me off playing for the whole weekend. If I was a beginner, it might but these days I know enough to keep looking and am confident enough to believe I'm in with a chance of finding something where I might be able to fit in.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:55 AM

this is why I was asking which festival it was, Jon. If it's the one I suspect, it probably was the only session.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:58 AM

It was 'The big session' and yes, it was the only session

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 07:06 AM

I thought that might be the case.

Some festivals attract a more passive crowd, and some a more participative one. Big Session has tried to create a more participative vibe, but so far is a more passive festival - fewer players and fewer sessions. I don't think they do much in the way of adult workshops or events other than concerts, which is probably partly responsible. They also have the big oysterband presence and probably attract punters from the more commercial end of the folk scale.

Maybe the solution is to go with a group of friends and start your own session!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 07:11 AM

OK, what's the big session "about"?

--
While I do play regularly in sessions (and seek out what suits me best), I rarely get out to festivals but I guess setting up one session to please all can be awkward?

I only got to one this year and doubt I'll get elsewhere. There the sat night when it got going, I think we had 4 more looking to and expecting join in jigs, reels, etc. One I think looking for taking it in turns and giving their ("solo") songs, a guitar willing to join the tunes but not familiar with the territory, etc.

I could see for example that with no ill will intended and if a few more moelody players had turned up, the "solo singer" would probably have felt very left out,.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 07:13 AM

'OK, what's the big session "about"?'

not sure what you mean, but it's here:


the big session

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 07:19 AM

OK, I was wondering how mixed or otherwise it was with its range of folk music.

--
Only "Big Session", I used to consider going to was Sesiwn Fawr

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 07:20 AM

Sesiwn Fawr

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 07:21 AM

Looks like the answer would have been to bring a set of bagpipes, then.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 07:23 AM

But which ones?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,charley o'neill
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 07:30 AM

In all seriousness, bagpipes were not allowed ! They were listed in the 'do's and don'ts' as being too loud ( not that I can play them)

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 07:35 AM

Bit silly that. Pipes range from instruments that could sort of overpower everyone else to the gentle.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 07:40 AM

x thread - there was a whole discussion about this, hence the ironic comment from Jack Campin!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Betsy at work
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 07:50 AM

You've got it off your chest Charley - I'm with you 100 % - now take GedPipes advice.
In addition , you will have a switch on your body somewhere.
Switch it to " Positive ", then start smiling, and shout "Fuck'em all ", by which time you should be feeling considerably better .

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Gedpipes
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 08:04 AM

...Betsyatwork
what do you do when you are at home? You never seem to be doing any feckin work ;-))
Blue skies
Ged

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: kendall
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 08:47 AM

I encountered one of those egomaniacs at a bluegrass festival. He was playing fiddle for a band, and the mandolin player was new to the game, but she had her break all practiced and could hardly wait for her break to come around. When it did, this fiddler stepped right up to the mike and started sawing away. She was heartbroken, I could see that and it pissed me off. I stood up and yelled "Back off asshole".
He hasn't spoken to me since, but she has.And so has the rest of the band.
If you allow this sort of behavior it only gets worse.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Leadfingers
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 08:49 AM

Its Funny , but I always thought the whole point of a 'Session' is for it to be Inclusive , NOT exclusive ! Hopefully we will continue to be Inclusive at The Newt in Sidmouth this year .

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 09:11 AM

I always thought the whole point of a 'Session' is for it to be Inclusive

I don't think so and for regular events I tend to aim for more specialised (Irish instrumental), don't enjoy the worst you can get from off beat thumpers, shakers, prefer that 1/2 the night is not taken up by singing, etc.

I think of them as places for people shared interests and tastes to get together and with each having it's own ways.

It could well be that a festival session might be better by or need to cater for everything but I don't see that as the way all sessions should be.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Mooh
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 09:21 AM

In my limited experience, when a session is a group of individuals it seems to run more democratically, but when it's dominated by a group, a band, with their own agenda, it's hard to get a note in. Walk away.

As for loud instruments, the ever present guitar has a hard time soloing with banjos, pipes, whistles, and others who won't give way. Sometimes it doesn't matter what instrument one plays, there are just too many players at a time, and too few with the good grace to sit one or two out. Walk away.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Trev
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 09:32 AM

I once went to a session in an Irish pub in Helsinki. I was invited and I still asked for permission to join the session. Myself and the resident bodhran players took turns so as not to upset the others.

I hadn't played for a while and so I was amazed when I kept losing the rythym which the piper was playing (what do you mean "how did I notice?"). Eventually I put the drum down and said to the other player that I wasn't going to play as I was obviously so out of practice and I was probably putting the others off.

He replied, "Oh, don't worry, he always does that. That piper hates bodhran players so he messes up the rythym to make you look bad". Well, it worked. I didn't bother sitting in on another session.

Another time, in O'Donoghue's, Dublin, I asked if I could join a session and was permitted to. At one point there was a break and I asked if I could sing a song. As I did it turned out another singer was about to as well. A whistle player snapped "No!" at me, but the other singer (possibly the session leader) said it was OK and let me sing. After the song I spoke to the whistle player and apologised if I'd interrupted anyone. He snarled back that I should have said which key I was going to sing in so the others could accompany me.

I told him that I didn't know what key I was in... I'm a singer, not a musician... He snarled back that a "Real" singer would have known. I thanked the other musicians for their hospitality and left them, and the man who has the key of his instrument printed on it, to go out and busk (rather profitably) in Grafton Street.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: lady penelope
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 09:39 AM

If a session is specifically advertised as being open to all (as the session in question was) it really should have been kept along those lines.

No one session can satisfy every musicians tastes or wants, eg being a singer who doesn't play an instrument, I don't tend to go to sessions that are dominated by instruments. But that's the point. If I'm given the idea that what I'm attending is a singers session and it ends up being dominated by instrumentalists, I'm gonna be p*ssed off. Same goes for the Session Charley was at.

It's a poor show by the the session organisers. If it put Charley off, how many other people did it put off? It can put people off entire festivals, as they'll go away with the idea that the place is unwelcoming. Because at the end of the day, if the session organisers aren't going to bother their backsides, no one indvividual will feel as if they can say anything either. There isn't much else you can do but walk out.

Bit sad really.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Jacques
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 09:55 AM

So, who were these big session upstarts ? Anyone know 'em ? Two sides to every story and all that, maybe they'd like to state their case...

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 10:11 AM

I usually carry an instrument or two around with me that can function as an equalizer.

When there's an egomaniac who likes showing off how they can go from G minor to E major in every set, I'll get out something that can play a blindingly fast reel in E flat minor and look at them pityingly when they can't follow.

Or when they're going way too fast for most of the players in the room, get out the C melody saxophone and play a few simple waltzes in easy keys, very slowly and VERY LOUDLY. That thing can shout down an accordion.

Sometimes the show-offs get the point if you can do something that both gets all the players involved and catches the appreciative attention of the audience. If your two-minute tune or song gets silence and a round of applause when their preceding half-hour of amphetamine-fuelled hyper-syncopated Irish-Quebecois-Balkan reels was received with nothing but disinterested chatter, they may come round to the idea of letting other people in.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 10:28 AM

20 mins solid of Shepherd's Hey always comes in useful. If they ruin your night why not ruin theirs?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: theleveller
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 10:38 AM

On the other hand.....

...mrsleveller and I aren't used to playing and singing in sessions and singarounds so, at Rydale Folk Weekend, we just slipped in to have a look and sat on the edge to listen. No way! We were practically dragged into the circle, handed instruments (before I went out and got our own) and made to have a go, given huge applause and interested questions were asked about the stuff I'd written from a couple of reasonably well-known professional singer/songwriters (to the extent that I was encouraged to enter the song competition later in the day).

A totally wonderful experience.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,jaques
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 11:17 AM

No word from the big session rotters to whom this thread was about, stand up & be counted!!!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 11:22 AM

Be of good cheer. It takes some folks a painfully long time to learn that they are, in truth, NOT the center of the universe. While they are gaining this bit of intelligence, however, it is sometimes necessary to shun them and, if they persist beyond tolerance, throttle the bastards with used guitar strings and the like.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 11:37 AM

Use explosives...... works for me!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: irishenglish
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 11:40 AM

Rudeness and frustration aside-how was The Big Session Festival itself, or did this spoil your fun of the whole thing?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 11:45 AM

"It's a poor show by the the session organisers. If it put Charley off, how many other people did it put off? It can put people off entire festivals, as they'll go away with the idea that the place is unwelcoming. Because at the end of the day, if the session organisers aren't going to bother their backsides, no one indvividual will feel as if they can say anything either. There isn't much else you can do but walk out."

this is what I was trying to convey earlier. The nature of a festival like Big Session is that it provides space for people to start sessions, and may prime a few musicians to get things started, but it tends to be a more spontaneous affair than the organised or "led" sessions you'll find at many festivals with a less high-profile and commercial line-up. So there probably WASN'T a session organiser.

"No word from the big session rotters to whom this thread was about, stand up & be counted!!!"

That's a bit of a hiding to nothing, Jaques. It isn't like the whole of the folk world reads this forum. I'm pretty sure I know who the group of young musicians were - and know they wouldn't be caught dead on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 11:56 AM

So what forums DO they read? Their own blogs?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 11:58 AM

they don't really participate in any folk forums that I know of. Or blog. Or even talk about the politics of folk. They are too busy playing. :)

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Acorn4
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 12:09 PM

I was at the "Big Session" on Saturday and attended the session in the marquee for a couple of hours -on that occasion the people mentioned were only there in smaller numbers - I did manage to get talking to them in between tunes so they were not completely anti social-often sessions don't exchange too many niceties- they were very young (and VERY good!)and obviously not fully into session etiquette as yet so they will mellow with age. I get the impression they will "get noticed" before long and this will cause them to ease off the throttle a bit. It was bad mannered but I was prepared to make a few allowances.

The "Big Session" is only two years old and it normally takes a fringe a bit of time to develop - there were signs of informal things getting started in the main bar.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 12:15 PM

Acorn, several of them have already been noticed.

And yes - they are VERY good.

As you say, the session doesn't really lend itself to a lot of chat, and i'm sure they weren't being deliberately rude. As I said at the beginning of the thread, they meet at festivals over the course of the year. And when they meet, they play together almost constantly. There's going to be a synergy there which may come across as insularity.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 12:20 PM

I don't know about not being caught dead on but while most people I know from clubs and sessions know of and make use of resources such as John Chambers and the dt on the Internet, few (I can't think of one off hand) participate regularly in folk forums.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 12:22 PM

well, the chaps in question are a bit young for all this palaver.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Ewan Spawned a Monster
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 12:36 PM

"well, the chaps in question are a bit young for all this palaver"

I have it on good authority (well, a couple of 'em told me) that some of the younger trad musicians and singers do occasionally read Mudcat, but doing so quickly makes them lose the will to live...

Jack:"So what forums DO they read?"

Gave me my first decent laugh of the day. Not everyone's as sad as we are, you know! And not everyone's got a day job they need to escape from for a few moments. Eh? Eh?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: irishenglish
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 12:39 PM

A few moments escape? How about my entire working day! Especially these days!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 12:44 PM

Several younger folkies were following a thread a while back about Morris Offspring (several of them dance or play for morris - it gets you into festivals for free). But unless it's a special thread, the ones I know don't really bother. I know they're now aware of this one. Whether they choose to contribute is another matter.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,'cool as folk' brigade
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 12:49 PM

Bovvered!!! We were actually booked there to sit and play in the bar all day cos dare i suggest some pople enjoy our music? Sorry we ruined your life, Wasn't intentional but if you'd like a complimentary "cool as folk" T-shirt send your address to [e-mail] and dont forget to mention your size. :-)

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 12:55 PM

Ah - i guess they have decided to respond.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Phil J
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 12:59 PM

I also attended this festival, if you were booked to play in the bar all day, why were you posing on the grass with instruments strewn around you and thinking you were the bees knees half the time. well done, from what I saw of you and from what I have now heard,you have now proved yourself as very rude, immature and selfish individuals.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 01:02 PM

ooooh oooooh oooooh... who was at the Marquee? Anyone I know? Probably hehehe...

The funny thing is... Charlie, you chat about experience at sessions!!! I've been dragged and gone to sessions for 30+ years, some where there are a few people that think that they have magical fingers that everyone want to demonstrate on whatever instrument they are playing.

I have to admit that some of them really do have magic fingers (ok... brass blowin skills Nic!) which leaves you with the choices (IMHO your best choice)sit back and enjoy the sound or leave and find a session you can join along with. It's easy...

You are at risk of sounding like a grumpy ol' man who complains about a programme on the telly when you could save everyone the misery and just change the channel!!!

Peace and love people...

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Charley O'Neill
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 01:06 PM

There was only one session Mr Diamond, I fancied a bit of a play and was excluded, simple as that...

And kids, if you were booked to play , why weren't you mentioned in the program , or doing a proper gig?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Graham and Jo
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 01:07 PM

There are different kinds of sessions and sometimes musicians don't realise the effect they are having, but it sounds like these did realise and it was rude. Lets hope that as they get older they will loose the arrogant edge and realise that an open session is not a competition but an opportunity to share music together. Normaly in the folk world even top players are friendly and welkoming and want to hear what others play. We've had great experiences in Ireland.
Come to the Tiger at Beverley festival and there will be several sessions going on at once. You can take your pick.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,'cool as folk' brigade
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 01:12 PM

Yes Phil we were sat on the field with instruments strewn round. It seemed inpractical to walk to the camp site to put our instruments away to get them back again an hour later? I didn't realise sitting with your belongings in a field made you the bees knees but i shall in future make more effort not to be folk at a folk festival. Again terribly sorry if we offended you. Do you want a T-shirt to?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 01:13 PM

They are telling the truth - they were booked to play to add atmosphere to the non-stage areas.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: irishenglish
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 01:15 PM

Uh oh...to quote the Oysters, Here Comes The Flood! Cool as folk brigade, I wasn't there, so I have no judgement, but don't bite off the hand that may feed you in the future.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,'cool as folk' brigade
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 01:16 PM

Charley, Why not start your own session? would solve your problem?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Phil J
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 01:17 PM

I could not have put it better myself irish !

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 01:17 PM

I have quietly made the same suggestion elsewhere, Irishenglish...

:)

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,'cool as folk' brigade
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 01:20 PM

Didnt realise Charley was feeding me?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 01:22 PM

Tis a metaphore young 'un , perhaps you may understand such advanced use of language as time progresses

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 01:23 PM

Mr O'Neill, I can only apologise that you felt put out by being excluded in the only session... I wasn't there so I can only empathise with you as it is frustrating... everyone seems to always want to be the centre of attention ;)

You maybe an extremely talented performer and I do look forward to hearing you but you cant please everyone all the time and likewise everyone cant please you all the time that's diversity for ya...

Secondly, I don't know how the Big Session operates but for years my Dad, sister and friends have been asked by organisers to perform and don't ever seem to even get a mention in a daily newsletter. They do it all the time.

Dont worry, be happy :)

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 01:27 PM

I thought the thread would tell a tale
Of those who stories loved to weave;
I stumbled in by accident
On purpose I shall leave.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Acorn4
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 01:30 PM

If CAF were booked then it seems like a bit of a misunderstanding. Best of luck to you -you did sound really good!

I think it's quite a commonle held view that melodeon players of all ages have a bit of a reputation of "jumping in" at a session if a nanosecond is left after a previous contribution.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Phil J
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 01:32 PM

Yeah booked ? In what capacity, to take over a session and exclude others ? Grow up..

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 01:41 PM

Dear lord!!!

This seems to be an age old argument that never seems to go away de to hissy fitting people who throw there rattle (or other instrument) out of their pram when no-one's giving them attention.

Phil... sentence containing black, pot and a water boiling device?!

PEACE & LOVE people... we're supposed to be folkies... just kiss and make up and be grateful these "kids" or should I say young adults are carrying on the tradition (including this silly argument lol)!

Love you all

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Guest - WrightOldRacket
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 01:43 PM

It's very interesting to read everyone's opinions of how Folk Sessions, Jam Sessions, Singarounds and open mic's should be run. There is never really a right or wrong answer. Arrogance is, of course, completely unnecessary but sometimes these so called twentysomethings will come across that way just by having a good time.

FYI People: The group of "Twentysomethings" at the Big session Festival 2008 were invited by the festival organizers to keep the momentum of the sessions going during the weekend. They are a professional or semi professional musicians who work with some of the country's leading traditional ensembles. There were some self penned tunes played over the weekend but, on the whole, that material was deliberately kept to english trad tunes. Hell they even played the Shepherd's Hey for a fuck of a long time too!!!
I think there was a slight conflict of interest throughout the weekend due to the fact of the majority of people wanting to play the session were guitarist/singers who were enjoying playing with each other. The Twentysonethings were fully aware of this and, by the Sunday, chose only to play when invite to by the gentleman running the session (loved the A-min version of "Get Back" by the way. Cheers for the break!!).

Maybe it's easier when a session is better defined to start with. I know if I go to the Cooperage in Newcastle and rip into a set of morris Jigs they'll rend me in twain but if any of those chaps were to play a kicking set of Scottish tunes at the Kelham in Sheffield then they'd be equally poorly received.

I suggest that, if the big session wants sessions, they should define them in the program better. "Open Session" is a dangerous thing at a festival as it causes this kind of conflict in the first place.

There. Had my say.

T x

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 01:43 PM

Acorn4, are you using an Acorn computer hence the name? lol

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 01:44 PM

Gosh, this has moved on apace.... there have been another 1/2 dozen posts in the time it took me to write this so apologies if I am repeating anyone else!!

I also know who you mean. I am an old git who loves the music this lot make...I can hardly ever keep up with them but they have never been rude to me....even though I can often only play the first & last notes !!

I'm in agreement with Houston's TV analogy.....and I've never been to a festival with just ONE session. They're like buses, there's usually another one just round the corner - or if necessary start your own elsewhere.

And as for top class musicians - you will often find "names" playing with them - because they're
a)good
b)fun
c)not taking themselves too seriously

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 01:48 PM

Tom: well said.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Def Shepard
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 01:48 PM

Some of the more interesting musicians and interpreters, these days, are the young'uns, I wonder if this is what has some of my fellow 'old farts' so worried:-D

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Phil J
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 01:52 PM

Charley, did you ever think that these young buggers saw you were a reasonable player and were scared ? I'ts just a thought , maybe by playing their flashy tunes and being less than friendly, they were making a feeble attempt to mark out their territory, sad really

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Guest - WrightOldRacket
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 01:52 PM

Cheers Ruth.

Figured a bit of diplomacy was in order. Houston, great points well made dude. See u soon buddy.

I neglected to say before: I heard some awesome songs this weekend by some great singers who I'd never met before and I hope I will see again.

T x

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 01:53 PM

"I can hardly ever keep up with them but they have never been rude to me...."

indeed - I was welcomed into the circle last year only a week after buying my melodeon! They are lovely boys really - even if one or two need a smack on the bottom sometimes (*looks hard at the tuba player*)

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Acorn4
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 01:56 PM

On the question about my computer, it's almost as old as an Acorn but not quite.

I think all of us who attend sessions of any kind have an ego.

Perhaps we just get better at disguising it as we get a bit older!

On the positive note about the Festival - I think Ruth Notman will be about for a very long time -she's still a bit nervous and not quite the "finished article , but once again, still young but has one of the best voices around clubs and festivals at the moment. Great to see her playing alongside Roger Wilson.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,'cool as folk' brigade
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 01:57 PM

(*Tuba player looks even harder at the fiddler*) Charley, can I ask which day you had your experience?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 01:59 PM

Maybe the reason that Ruth was welcolmed and Charley was not was down to Ruth being a beginner and Charley, possibly a percieved threat ...don't know , I don't know what you do mate, by the way how old are you ? (could be another interesting factor me thinks ??!!)

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,dizzyLisa
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 01:59 PM

And they REALLY don't need to mark their territory.....
Sorry, didn't mean to be anonymous before - I clicked prematurely (I even had a d) but have now forgotten it !!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Guest - WrightOldRacket
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 02:06 PM

I'm slightly surprised that anyone would even consider being intimidated by another musician in a session (*Guitarist stares fucking hard at the floor*). I freak out whenever I go to work cos I play with amazing musicians every day. I hope that the twentysomethings were invited to play at the big session because, although they get over excited and play too fast or play tunes that aren't that well know sometimes, they do sessions well and are accommodating as musicians (maybe not as people).

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Rasener
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 02:09 PM

Acorn
Ruth appeared at Faldingworth Live about a year and a half ago, and I was very impressed with her voice then as well as her musicianship.
She has come a long way since then and has an excellent future.
Go get Ruth.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 02:18 PM

Seriously Ruth... you don't wanna smack that Tuba player on the bottom!!! oh dear!! the thought is sending ssshhudderrs though me :s

Thanks T Wright Racket, I like your point too, about how regions gettin a bit too arsy about other region tunes being played...

Just appreciate the music...

I have seen my Dad start a traditional tune and end up playing the Troggs "Wild Thing" (for eg.) from the mid-70's on and the "traditionalists" used to jump on his back while another section of people (late 20's, early 30's at the time) embraced it and realised the potential of moving with the times.

It's that same old argument... and it wont leave...

the egos wont let it ;)

Keep the traditional music alive but not the argument please.

Peace, Harmony and Tranquillity (PHAT for short) ;)

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 02:19 PM

I think those who are maligning Charlie need to re-read his opening post. If "Open sessions" were promised, they weren't delivered, and if "keeping sessions going" was what the people were booked for (incidentally, I first read "twenty something" as referring to the number of them) then what they did was not the same, and making faces at others' performances (TDL excepted) is not polite or welcoming, and nicking someone's chair is distincly rude.

Not replying to conversation in sessions is a bit more debatable - many feel that conversation in sessions is rude, but a short politeness beteen tunes is surely appropriate.

Sessioning one's own tunes without including known tunes is not engaging: it limits participants to those who know those tunes and that seems not to have been what the payers were booked for. But there is a place for new tunes - they have to start somewhere.

It does look as if there may have been a crossed wire about the nature of the sessions - some non-singers interpret the expression as excluding singers whereas I would suggest that it should include them (but not if all they want to do is solo) so that accompanied song (with the accompaniment staying in keeping) is as much part of a session as joining in with the played tune of another (and again you should not walk all over it).

It is helpful to those joining in if modulations and variations are preceed by an indication of the new key, by the usual finger gestures if necessary.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 02:27 PM

"(*Tuba player looks even harder at the fiddler*)"

LOL! That is SO true.


"Maybe the reason that Ruth was welcolmed and Charley was not was down to Ruth being a beginner"

I think it was just cause we're mates...but we only became mates through me meeting them at festivals. And if they can accomodate an old fart like me (socially or musically) they can't be all bad.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Guest - WrightOldRacket
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 02:29 PM

Good points Mr B.

I think that "open sessions" is the main issue. It would have appeared that there were two schools of "how a session should be" at the festival and they didn't gel as well as could have been hoped.

I personally don't recall an incident when any of (maximum of 6) twentysomethings deliberately avoided conversation with anyone although I may be wrong.

As far as "modulations" are concerned, I'd like to think that the twentysomething's session etiquette when it come to shouting keys, etc is pretty good.

I'm sure we will all learn from this and, in future, things will run more smoothely.

Jeez as far as knicking someone's chair in a session is concerned, it happened to me as well over the weekend. it can only be a mistake. It happens. Move on...

T x

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 02:31 PM

I sat in the open sessions in the back of the bar and really regretted not bringing my fiddle. I thought the twentysomethings (in reference to age not numbers. There were only 5 or 6 of them) were inspiring and aside from a small number of tunes which were played most i knew and are trad.
Does anyone know where they come from and if they play at a regular session anywhere?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Banjiman
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 02:33 PM

"more session rudeness"

I thought the thread title was an invitation..........

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Acorn4
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 02:35 PM

One point about the session that hasn't been made is the location. It was actually in a corner of a marquee just in front of the stage, and unless a singer had a voice of Brian Blessed proportions it was hard to project outside the circle, the bar being in close proximity, whereas the fiddles etc were able to do this, and quiet singers did not really have much of a chance. This was not any fault of the instrumental musicians.

Sometimes a good "Heinz 57" session will attract an audience of punters -the famous sessions in the Bedford at Sidmouth being a classic example - it was difficult for quiet singers to project to do this.

Acoustics are very odd sometimes very strange - a group of Leicester musicians regularly do a charity busk at a shopping centre in a bandstand, and the sound projects really well because of the roof - a tent is probably the worst possible venue acoustically.

The Festival is only young and the orgainiers overall did a great job -perhaps if they note the problems that occurred on the feedback forms, something will be sorted for next year.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,billydo
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 02:35 PM

Folk Degree, perhaps?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Guest - WrightOldRacket
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 02:36 PM

Jeez ok Here goes:

The Guitarist lives in Sheffield and plays sessions there a fair bit. He can also be found in Newcastle from time to time playing there.

Mr Fiddler lives and plays in Bristol
Miss Fiddle lives and plays in Portsmoth

The accordionist (who can also be found playing the Tuba) lives in London but tours the country al the time. good luck finding him in a session!!

The melodeon player lives in South devon.

All of the people listed can be found as artists, guests and just punters at a load of festivals over the summer...

Warwick should be the next reunion.

T x

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Guest - WrightOldRacket
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 02:38 PM

None of them have ever been on the folk degree. The giveaway is that, if they WERE on the folk degree, you'd ot have heard any morris tunes.

T x

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 02:39 PM

Crikey, I'm loving all this mystery...

Were the other two melodeon players (one of whom dances Cotswold morris and comes from Derbyshire and the other whose name resembles a chain of children's toy shops) not in attendance?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: irishenglish
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 02:40 PM

Uh oh...going to get WAV in here now for that one!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Def Shepard
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 02:44 PM

irishenglish SAID, " Uh oh...going to get WAV in here now for that one!"

Oh plese don't, please don't :-D

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Guest - WrightOldRacket
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 02:44 PM

He who resembled a toy shop was there.

t x

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,FolkisCool
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 02:47 PM

I know the individuals who this thread is aimed at and I think they're all very talented I have enjoyed attending sessions with them for several years and I'm making my best effords to join in with them now.

If you liked what you heard or you want to up your game or just have it out with us/them then come to The Ship in Sidmouth we'll be there.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 02:49 PM

This thread is hilarious.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,'cool as folk' brigade
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 02:50 PM

ruth, derbyshire dancer was on a stag do and Toyz'r was there. but te ginger king of wales didn't make it

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,dizzyLisa
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 02:51 PM

Schhhhh.....remember how small that bar is......you'll have the whole of Mudcat there, either joining in or waiting for feathers to fly !!!!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,'cool as folk' brigade
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 02:52 PM

Noone'll get into the ship as our ego's will block the door

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,FolkisCool
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 02:54 PM

Plus as I recall we drank most of what they had to offer last year, so no beverages for anyone else either!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Guest - WrightOldRacket
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 02:54 PM

I'm addicted!!!

FolkisCool, you sounded a little threatening then!!! I'm sure it wasn't mean to be.

I love you all.

t x

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 02:57 PM

Doesn't "the other whose name resembles a chain of children's toy shops" live in South Devon lol

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,FolkisCool
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 02:57 PM

Not meant to sound threatening at all, just venting my frustrations at this crazy argument which I dont feel will ever be settled I've seen the conflict and it's best solved by the offended parties to stay away from each other unless they are happy and content to do otherwise.

Much folk love and nothing too threatening.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,'cool as folk' brigade
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 02:59 PM

now you cant beat a bit of folk love can you?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,R2D2
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:00 PM

I will make everyone angry.

I LOVE YOU ALL

Please smile for the camera. It's a Kodac moment.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,FolkisCool
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:00 PM

...and a little off topic perhaps but it was not my idea to call WrightOldRacket in the middle of the night during a wiltshire festival.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:00 PM

I should really refresh this more often lol

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:01 PM

He does, Houston - I was mixing him up with a very tall boy with a celebrity girlfriend who dances with Bristol morris...

"Noone'll get into the ship as our ego's will block the door"

That is equally funny and true! :)

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Otis Luxton
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:01 PM

I'd like to go into a tune session and play the entirety of the music from "hair" back to back - just to piss everyone off. Then there would be no fussing and only one person to dislike. - Im halfway there already. Or i might just to go every session at sidmouth and towersey this year with a really loud boombox playing some Funkadelic or some really obnoxious Psy-trance. Just for shits and giggles.

Oat

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,dizzyLisa
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:02 PM

But it's usually your idea to call me and play that totally unknown and unplayable tune Upton-on-Severn !!! lol

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Guest - WrightOldRacket
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:03 PM

Nee bother F-I-C. I shut my phone off at night when I'm NOT at a festival now. I enjoy listening to C&H on the answerphone in the morning...

T x

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,FolkisCool
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:04 PM

No Lisa I dont think I have your number in my phone, I never need it I can always find you in the pub!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:04 PM

That sounds cool Otis lol

You gonna be singing on the campsite at sidders again?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Guest - WrightOldRacket
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:05 PM

G-Folk is on the rise Oat.

One of the bands I'm in (props Nic) has a rapper now? Maybe you'd like him in a session with our beatboxer?

Brap

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,FolkisCool
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:06 PM

I'm sure Otis can sing on campsite until the twentysomethings arrive to take over :P

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: irishenglish
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:07 PM

Well, I asked this earlier, but no one really answered-These issues notwithstanding, how was The Big Session Festival anyway? Lee was supposed to come back and do some drumming, was he there? And how was Steve Earle?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Otis Luxton
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:08 PM

Hey Houston,

I havent actually planned to go to Sidmouth this year, or any festivals for that matter. Im quite skint. I may do some stewarding, but that still costs money if im there. Sorry if you were looking foward to the Hair soundtrack. hehe. I think this thread has almost been exhausted? Are you at Sidders this year?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:08 PM

Fucking Twentysomethings...

The next time I see any of their parents I'm going to have serious words....

T x

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Guest - WrightOldRacket
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:10 PM

Lee did come back and did drumming. that was prety cool.

Steve Earl was AWESOME!!!!! If you've not heard the new record then check it out.very cool stuff.

New Bellowhead material was totally kicking too.

T x

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:11 PM

T Wright... there is a real up and coming plus fringe workshop on beatboxing on most festival campsites :D

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,'cool as folk' brigade
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:11 PM

have all the old people gone to bed now then?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,King_of_wales
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:13 PM

Ok, I was going to stay out of this but....

As I understand it the individuals concerned were asked by the festival organisers to come along and play tunes in the session area - both to attract a crowd and keep the session momentum going. That's what they did. End of.

Speaking from personal experience of playing with these guys (and girls) they're a bunch of top class musicians equally happy playing trad, contemporary or self penned tunes (hence being asked to play at festivals by festival organisers). Some sets of tunes (mainly trad) have become well practised by these guys over the years (of meeting up at sessiona) so I can see how it may sound like a performance set on occasion. But really it's all about having fun with the music and that means joining in with anybody and everybodys tunes. I guess that's why 'Ruth Archer' felt so welcomed - because she got the atttude right....

/2p

The other accordion player (HRH Wales).

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:13 PM

Otis... yep for my sins another 30 something year to notch on the tent pole :s

And I'm really skint this year... bloody children making me penniless... they'll be stealing our sessions next lol ;)

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,FolkisCool
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:13 PM

I think perhaps you exhausted them with your quick wit and response.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Banjiman
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:14 PM

I don't know, you come into our forum, take over, we just can't get a word in in edgeways with your kickin' and your beatboxes.......and look someone just pinched me seat. Pass me my zimmer I'm off to find a discussion forum I can keep up with........

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:15 PM

"have all the old people gone to bed now then?"

No - i'm still here. And will be singing on the Sidders campsite - ESPECIALLY to those who hate the sound of the human voice.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,'cool as folk' brigade
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:15 PM

ahh. we're in the precence of royalty

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,FolkisCool
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:15 PM

The king has spoken, all hail the king.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:15 PM

lol... am going to bed in a min tbh... hehehe

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:16 PM

" bloody children making me penniless... they'll be stealing our sessions next lol ;)"

just wait till the tuba player wants to shag your daughter...

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:16 PM

Can I join you Ruth? I'll only sing a couple then I'll be too drunk (hopefully) ;)

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,'cool as folk' brigade
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:17 PM

I shall look forward to that Ruth. Hows SDD? and of course the port drinker? Im off out but i shall return later. Can someone save my virtual seat?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:17 PM

"I guess that's why 'Ruth Archer' felt so welcomed - because she got the atttude right...."

also see my response of 03:16 pm...

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:18 PM

That's it... I'm send my sons to you Cool as Folk lol ;)

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,'cool as folk' brigade
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:19 PM

and i wasnt trying to shag her. just get her drunk for a laugh. she's to old for me

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:19 PM

Are Tuba lessons expensive hehehe

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:21 PM

"I shall look forward to that Ruth. Hows SDD? and of course the port drinker?"

Both well, thank you. The port drinker is all loved up - he has dyed black hair, too! Awww...

She's coming to Towersey - and bringing a mate!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:22 PM

"and i wasnt trying to shag her. just get her drunk for a laugh. she's to old for me"

i don't know which bit of that sentence is the most sick and wrong...

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,FolkisCool
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:26 PM

I really should check this forum more often this has had me laughing for quite a while now.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:26 PM

This is my very last post on this topic, it has descended in to lunacy and has gone far off the point. I am maybe ten yrs older than the cool as folkers (though maybe that seems like a lifetime to them ),I am not some old stick in the mud traditionalist. They worked a number on me, they eased me out. They were unfriendly and rude.They did not want me in your session. Yo kids,seriously , you were 'booked to play in the beer tent all day' , so how did that work out when proper grown up acts were payed to perform until early evening in said tent. Were you booked to lead the session? if so, for reasons more than adequately discussed, you did an appalling job trying to turn it into your own gig. Right, so you were paid to play in the middle of the field, spoiling the music that the proper booked artists were making in the aforementioned beer tent. I am confused!!I know that I will not win, one of you lot will be straight back in with an incredibly witty and sarcastic load of nonsense. Reflect my friends, reflect!I think you know who I am, I certainly will remember you...And Yeah Mr Diamond, peace and love and other such smug, pseudo flannel. Read my first post and you may more or less work out that is why I went to the session in the first place. Thankyou and goodnight...

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:27 PM

'"and i wasnt trying to shag her. just get her drunk for a laugh. she's to old for me"'

That is one of the more disgusting things I have ever seen on Mudcat. Keriste. Do y'all associate with shit like that? What a fuckin' dink he is.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,dizzyLisa
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:30 PM

"have all the old people gone to bed then"
You know this old fart better than that FolkisCool
But we do eat occasionally - obviously liquids cos our teeth are in a jar
CL x

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,FolkisCool
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:31 PM

"That is one of the more disgusting things I have ever seen on Mudcat. Keriste. Do y'all associate with shit like that? What a fuckin' dink he is. "

Or perhaps he's having a laugh, going with the flow and just enjoying himself with this thread much like the sessions?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Def Shepard
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:32 PM

""and i wasnt trying to shag her. just get her drunk for a laugh. she's to old for me"

Well laddie, just maybe someone (or someones, it's more fun) should tie you down and shove alcohol down your throat, though wait....that would put them on your level on the evolutionary tree, which I believe is somewhere below the amoeba or, as the old saying goes, if ignorance truly is bliss, you must be orgasmic.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,FolkisCool
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:33 PM

""have all the old people gone to bed then"
You know this old fart better than that FolkisCool
But we do eat occasionally - obviously liquids cos our teeth are in a jar
CL x "

Would appear you're not just crazy but perhaps senile too as it was Cool as Folk Brigade who asked that question not me.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Def Shepard
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:33 PM

"Or perhaps he's having a laugh"

he's laughing alright, but at the funniness of this thread

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:34 PM

Nice thing about plates is ya can brush yer teeth and eat at the same time.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Guest - WrightOldRacket
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:36 PM

U know what I was trying to be diplomatic but forget it.

Maybe some people feel fucked over by the way some other people behaved but shit, that happens. It was unintentional.

Come and introduce yourself next time we in the same field and I'll buy U a beer. Maybe we can start a fresh?

Peace out.

I'm done here.

t x

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:36 PM

I did read your thread at the beginning... I just think you are stressing too much... I must admit that I got confused and sidetracked by Howard Jones posting on this cos he is one of the godfathers of electronica :D

80's music, quality!!!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Def Shepard
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:37 PM

"he's laughing alright, but at the funniness of this thread"

ooops that SHOULD have read, "NOT at the funniness of this thread" ;-D

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,FolkisCool
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:39 PM

""he's laughing alright, but at the funniness of this thread"

ooops that SHOULD have read, "NOT at the funniness of this thread" ;-D "


Somehow that makes it all the more entertaining, you've already started thinking along the same lines as us, it's only a matter of time before you're assimilated. Resistance is futile :P

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:46 PM

It seems to me some of you folks just like to yell at each other, or be smart asses. I will make a couple of observations, not that I think it will make much difference:

- the first piece of session etiquette involves watching and making sure you fit in, who is the dominant/leader in the group, and what rules they seem to be following.

- if a session is advertised by encouraging folks to bring their instruments, then a session leader (regardless of age) should be prepared for folks of varying ability, and make allowances for them, and be encouraging.

- excluding folks by freezing them out simply shows a lack of class, not how good you are. BTW, I have done some work in Nashville and Toronto. Do you know how many fantastic players are sitting on the bench? Smugness just shows you to be an immature idiot, who will find out soon enough that there are many great players. But the type of performer that lives on in the memory of all is usually one that is gracious.

- your comment about Ruth Archer demonstrates that you have much growing up to do. I suppose we have all been there, so perhaps you will grow out of this.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:50 PM

it's the first time I've heard CAS called disgusting... oops I mean it's NOT the first time I've heard CAS called disgusting lol

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,FolkisCool
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:50 PM

Well let's all big up Big Mick for he has worked in Nashville and Toronto dont you know! ;)

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Def Shepard
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:50 PM

Alright, 'oo let the old geezer in, the one with the lampshade on his noggin? :-D

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Def Shepard
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:52 PM

ummmm....where's Toronto? :-D

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,FolkisCool
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:53 PM

*points* it's over yonder hill!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Def Shepard
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:57 PM

Marked it on me map for future reference:-D

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,TotallyFolked
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 04:01 PM

Tuba boy, be careful as you're starting to sound like another rather older accordian player ;P
And yes CL is senile as well as being old, but we love her anyways.

ooo, first ever post on mudcat!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 04:01 PM

Big Mick... All god's creatures got a place in the choir... greatness is in us all...

Moaning and throwing a hissy fit about how you weren't accepted as a performer by fellow performers do not score well on an audience.

Yes, you are right, a graceful performer does well, we all have our turn to shine! Unfortunately, it sounds like the ungraceful one in the argument is supposed to be the mature one and the immature one is returning in true style as only the 20 somethings can... namely "am I bovverd". to keep reading the thread after is pointless!!!

Unless you enjoy the quips lol ;D

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 04:01 PM

IMHO - Everyone in the session should take responsibility for the session. More than once I have heard that one person on a training course will get on a soap box and ruin the meeting for the other delegates. Sometimes the trainer cannot get the "wild hair" to behave and no one else will stand up and say "This is not your show!"

Same thing when I was in university. If a classmate was mucking up a lecture that I was paying good money for, I had no problem telling them to pack it in or leave and stop wasting everyone's time.

More than a few times I had to ask a noisy group of "non-participants" at a session during the Rochester Sweeps to keep it down, so I could hear the performers. I mentioned that it was a planned session and invited them to perfomr. Unfortunately, drink and pure self-centeredness over-ruled me. Still I stayed and kept picking away at them.

People (especially the young arrogant ones) need to be told when they are doing something wrong. In the long run, you will be doing them a favour. Better they don't ruin a future break into fame by creating a past of infamy among the real folk.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,cool as folk or whatever brigsomething
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 04:12 PM

In reference to sleeping with Ruths daughter, I speak in jest. Comments on age were made as she's actually too young, much like you stuffy old gits (sic) think i am. Do you really take a conversation where i offer complementary t-shirts and consolation for ruining someone's life seriously? Lighten up guys (see www.freelightbulbsforoaps.gov.uk) and get with the joke. The aforementioned port wasn't poured down her gullet by me. Just jokingly passed to her in view of her mother.

p.s. would you also like a free t-shirt?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,FolkisCool
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 04:14 PM

My T-shirt is a little worn out could I get a free one if I argue with you? ;)

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Polite Guest
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 04:15 PM

OK, so I'm sitting here, reading this thread, whilst listening to 'Big Session Volume 1' by The Oysterband and...their GUESTS.

The Big Session, as someone has said above, is a relatively new festival, organised by The Oysterband themselves. It is proving to be well loved and looked forward to each year now. Hardly surprising, for the Oysters themselves are well loved.

HOWEVER! ALL 'guests' of the band, are there at their request. As such, when they accept that request, they have, in my opinion, a duty and also a responsibility to uphold the honour under which they've been trusted to not only be booked, but I presume, perhaps also paid, to be at the festival.

Therefore, perhaps if they are lucky enough to once again be chosen to play at The Big Session, they would care to remember that they are representing The Oysterband, a band for whom there is one hell of a lot of respect out here.

And, for those cocky young kids in here, could I just ask you to do something. Turn this fiasco around and imagine how you would have felt if you had wanted to join in this session, a session run by older people, who refused to let you play? You'd have been angry I'd guess, so...learn the lesson of humility from this thread.

Do NOT bring The Big Session into disrepute, nor any other festival where you are lucky enough to be booked, because you know what, there a thousand other youngsters with equal talent out there who will fill you shoes instantly, and have a great deal more respect.

And this comes from someone who is a huge supporter of youngsters in the folk world...You are it's future, you are it's lifeblood, you therefore carry a huge responsibilty upon your shoulders. By all means, have a great time, have the most fabulous time, but never forget that EVERYONE is included in the folk world.

You are it's future, BUT, you are also part of it's past, and if it wasn't for all these 'ol folk in here you would not have the music that you do! So think on that....and learn.

And if you can't be bothered to learn that, then get your arses out of the folk world, and into mainstream music, where no-one gives a sod about anyone else.

In THIS world, you CARE!

Got it?

GOOD!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Polite Guest
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 04:18 PM

AND..The Oysterband have been informed....so watch it!

No-one, but no-one gets to bring that festival into disrepute...

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Def Shepard
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 04:25 PM

Oh dear, someone didn't take their happy pill *sigh*

LIGHTEN UP fer goodnessakes!!!!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 04:25 PM

(*looks hard at the tuba player*)

Is that the one who played Jingle Bells every five minutes throughout the night at Towersey a couple of years back?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Chunk
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 04:29 PM

Firstly, BIG Mick - Who the fuck boasts about Toronto? Nashville, yeah, but Toronto? Shut the fuck up.

Secondly, to all the people saying that maybe The "Cool As Folk" Brigade where threatened by the more "mature" player, because he would possibly show them up is, hmmm how to put this?.....

BULLSHIT!

I have the fortune of knowing said insolent rapscallions and the fact is that most of them can probably play fucking circles round you. Not because of there "Paganini type modulations" (who uses Paganini as an insult?), but because they are solid players and have, due to a glut of folkie parentage, been playing since their respective instruments since were old enough to pick them up.

And yes, they sometimes get faster and go for it a bit. Maybe because they still have some enthusiasm for the music they play and don't use sessioning as some form point-scoring competition.

Lastly, the main reason you seem to have a problem with them is because they are young. Any group of gnarly old folkies at a session, if they hadn't let you in or had made you feel unconfident, you would have probably doffed your hat at their strength of character and admired their skill.

Just because you are not in the "Twentysomething" bracket anymore, don't get bitter about it. Its unbecoming and hypocritical.

p.s. I would like a free t-shirt.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Def Shepard
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 04:34 PM

Ummm...there are many of "older" types who no problem with age at all, the only criteria is the quality and energy of the music played.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Polite Guest
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 04:35 PM

Def Shephard:

"Oh dear, someone didn't take their happy pill *sigh*
LIGHTEN UP fer goodnessakes!!!!"

Sure, I took my happy pill, what I didn't take is my 'couldn't give a damn about anyone else' pill. Sounds as if you may have taken one too many. Why doesn't that surprise me?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Barry Finn
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 04:42 PM

If 'they' were invited & booked to play then part of the job discription (for running an 'open' session) is "to invite" all-warmly, "to accomodate" 'all' other musicians, to make the session "as friendly" to all who venture within listening range (even the onlooking-non playing public), to be aware of the groups level of musicianship & try to focus in on common material &/or try to hit on tunes that at the very least can include & accomodate the style & repertoire. If you can't then ask those sitting by waiting to showcase what they do. Ask those not able to jump in to lead (& then try to back them too). Ask them questions, suss or feel them out, it's part of making it a friendly/inviting seesion. If you know a musician who came a distance speak up to them & get them to lead a few. Make them all feel as if they'd love to come back. It's part of the session leader(s) job to bring out the best of those sitting in & to bring all to the table. It sounds to me that a poor job was done here.

OK. I don't lead sessions, I don't because I wouldn't do a good job at it. I don't have that kind of out-going personality to include all, I don't have a "talk 'em up" nature, I'm not a good enough musician to bring along a very good musician to do their best & have them enjoy themselves being brought along for the ride & then get to thank me for the lift, I wouldn't recognize that something different or special in someone's else's playing to the point where I could appropriately comment/encourage/showcase their playing by asking them for a solo or asking them for a special spot in the session, I do have the sensitivity, to see if someone who has an instrument in their hand isn't opening their case to take it out & play it, I do have the awareness to note that a musician isn't sitting down to play & is looking forlorn or in wonderment. I do note the face worn by the on-lookers & woder if they're smiling & having a good time, it they're tapping their fett or fongers, if they're humming along, if they're applauding. I try never (if it's a session I'm regular to) to let a musician walk out the door if they haven't sat in, if it's a lack of chair (& that's the only good reason, aside from them being beginners), they can have mine. I also try to note when a musician comes in & scopes out or sizes up the session & is making up their mind on weither or not to join, watch, listen or go. Sometimes a great musician doesn't want to sit in with those that aren't as good, they get tired of playing with us "lessers". They too sometimes get tired of not being able to play with their "great" peers (they are so few & far between sometimes). Grab them before they walk out & you miss out on what they have to offer. They are usually older types, they don't let you know how good they are, usually they're a bit humble (at least in my experience). If you get free drinks as a session leader get them a drink, as them to play a couple before to go.

It's your job, it takes time to know your job & do it well, learn how to do your job. Your job is not to play well, it's to play well with others & see that others have fun playing with you.

When I 1st started playing seesions it was in the Boston area & I had
the great fortune to start out at the Old Village Coach House back in the mid 70's. That session was a hold over & extention from the great Dudley Street Sessions of the 40"s & 50's. Regluars were greats in their fields, Paddy Cronin, Larry Renyolds, Seamus Connelly, Mance Grady, Joe Durain, Johnny Cuningham, blah, blah,blah. All the best acts stopped in on their way through town. At all times, even up to this present day musicians of all levels,
styles, nationalities, colors, religions, backgrounds were wecolmed warmly & encouraged to play along, from the newest to the oldest (our 90 something old bones player, a regular, just pasted away), from the best to the worst (this takes sensitivity, here you need people skills). I remember Seamus Connelly telling me to stop playing softely under the table & start playing so's I could be heard & inviting me to sing. If he had been harsh on a beginner like me back then I would have died & never continued playing or singing in seesions. These people had such finesse when it came to leading sessions that it was like watching an art form.

So it doesn't matter a shit how fast you all can play or how good you can play or how much you'd like to "play with each other", what matters is that you do what you were invited to do or paid to do & that's to see that you all play "well" with each other & that everybody else has a good time doing that too!
If you can't do this things but want to continue leading sessions, find a right hand or even a right & a left hand who'll help you out with these things. If there's a core group of say 4 or 5 of you, discuss the type of session you'd like to lead, who has what skills that would help better the session for all, who's good at greeting strangers, who has the gift of gab, who has the awareness of what others are thinking & feeling about how they see the session, who's good at getting feedback from the other musicians, who's good at talking to the noddler or the hog about giving others a chance, who's good at telling someone that what they're doing isn't exceptable but making them feel like they'd love to come back all the more.

Barry

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Barry Finn
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 04:44 PM

This is a fast moving thread

Barry

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Polite Guest
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 04:44 PM

Great post, Barry.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Polite Guest
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 04:45 PM

Blimey! You were fast! ;-)

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Cool As Folk Brigade
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 04:47 PM

"if you had wanted to join in this session, a session run by older people, who refused to let you play? You'd have been angry I'd guess"

We didn't refuse to let anyone play. The original rant on which this thread is based stated that the guy in question walked out because he didn't enjoy our music. We never refuse to let anyone play with us. We see folk the same way we see swingers partys... the more the merrier.

"You are it's future, you are it's lifeblood, you therefore carry a huge responsibilty upon your shoulders."

Please elaborate on aforementioned responsibility. I play a great deal of genres, both for pleasure and professionally. I fail to see how we as youngsters carry a responsibility for folk music. If people enjoy any genre of music it will thrive. If support for a genre of music dies out the genre follows suit. The music I play with the musicians I'm priveleged to play with doesn't actually seem to be dying. If, as you seem to think, Polite Guest, I carry a responsibilty for singer/songwriters of the folk persuasion then I feel you are mistaken.

If there is public support for any genre then It will never die. In my experience the music I play is supported by both punters and professionals, obviously I can't please everyone but neither can you, or indeed anyone.

Please don't be yet another person who tells me about young peoples responsibility to preserve folk music and then grumble when it's not how you did it X number of years ago. Traditions evolve just like everything else does.I don't force you to listen my music.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Acorn4
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 04:47 PM

Rudeness in young performers is often just down to a bit of a lack of thought and over-enthusiasm. I was a complete ar****le at their age.

I find rudeness in a very small minority of older folkies harder to take because they should know better.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,dizzyLisa
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 04:58 PM

Well said Acorn 4
CL

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Polite Guest
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 04:58 PM

From me:

"You are it's future, you are it's lifeblood, you therefore carry a huge responsibilty upon your shoulders."

From you:

Please elaborate on aforementioned responsibility. I play a great deal of genres, both for pleasure and professionally. I fail to see how we as youngsters carry a responsibility for folk music.

Well, the people before you have been carrying it for the past 40 years. If it's too much trouble for you to take that responsibility up, then stay in another genre.

If people enjoy any genre of music it will thrive. If support for a genre of music dies out the genre follows suit.

The music is only as good as those who perform it. If that performance comes with the wrong attitude, it will damage your performance.

The music I play with the musicians I'm priveleged to play with doesn't actually seem to be dying. If, as you seem to think, Polite Guest, I carry a responsibilty for singer/songwriters of the folk persuasion then I feel you are mistaken.

The music you play is NOT dying for the simple fact that it has been in the hands of many people who care deeply about it, for a very long time. You are merely part of the procession, carrying it on to your children, yet to be born, and to theirs.

If there is public support for any genre then It will never die. In my experience the music I play is supported by both punters and professionals, obviously I can't please everyone but neither can you, or indeed anyone.

If you regard your audience merely as 'punters' then you have no right to be in the folk world. 'Punters' are merely people to whom you sell something, usually taking from them, for your own advantage.
You will never please your audience if you look down upon them. ALWAYS look up to them, apart from those inconsiderate bastards who have no respect for you, of course.

Please don't be yet another person who tells me about young peoples responsibility to preserve folk music and then grumble when it's not how you did it X number of years ago. Traditions evolve just like everything else does.I don't force you to listen my music.

Trust me, there is no-one who understands what you say more. I have been hanged, drawn and quatered for loving folk music. I have been pillioried for wanting more and more young people to come into it. I do NOT want you coming into it being beige, bland and boring, but this music means a great deal, to many. By all means take it to new exciting places, liven it up, liven up the way it is delivered, make it your own, but always remember that it belongs to others too, and it means a huge amount to them.

The music is OURS, not yours, not mine.

OURS..

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,R2D2
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:00 PM

So I guess my message of love fell on deaf ears. Regardless of age. O, sigh. And not one of you corrected the spelling of Kodac.

Magic, moments,
When two hearts are carin',
Magic, moments,
Memories we've been sharin'. . .
I'll never forget the moment we kissed,
The night of the hayride,
The way that we hugged to try to keep warm,
While takin' a sleigh ride.
Magic, moments,
Memories we've been sharin',
Magic, moments,
When two hearts are carin' . . .
Time can't erase the memory of,
These magic, moments,
Filled with love!
whistling . . .
The telephone call that tied up the line,
For hours and hours,
The Saturday dance, I got up the nerve,
To send you some flowers.
Magic, moments,
Memories we've been sharin',
Magic, moments,
When two hearts are carin' . . .
Time can't erase the memory of,
These magic, moments,
Filled with love!
The way that we cheered,
Whenever our team,
Was scoring a touchdown!
The time that the floor,
Fell out of my car,
When I put the clutch down!
The penny arcade,
The games that we played,
The fun and the prizes!
The Halloween hop,
When everyone came,
In funny disguises.
Magic, moments,
Filled with love!
whistling . . .

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:02 PM

We never refuse to let anyone play with us.

This is IT, exactly. A session is not for people to come play with a band-- any band. It's for everyone who shows up to play. When the session "leaders" feel that it's an "us" and "the rest of you" thing, that's not quite what experienced session people want, or expect, and they will feel the difference.


Why can the young people not just fess up to having learned an interesting lesson, and why can the elders not let them have the space for that?

It all makes me never want to come to a UK session, for sure. If this is what people are thinking while at one-- no thanks!

~S~

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: irishenglish
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:03 PM

Okay Cool as Folk Brigade, fair enough points. But no offense, you could have responded as you just did, way back at the beginning of this thread. Not that I mind a long thread, but why drag it out?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,R2D2
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:07 PM

Too many primas, not enough donas.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Polite Guest
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:12 PM

From you:

"We didn't refuse to let anyone play. The original rant on which this thread is based stated that the guy in question walked out because he didn't enjoy our music. We never refuse to let anyone play with us..."

No, perhaps you didn't refuse, but from what we are hearing, the person concerned felt unwelcome. I wasn't there, so I don't know for sure, but there doesn't seem to be much "Hey, we're sorry if you felt that way, it was never intended!" going on.

It's not YOUR music, it belongs to all, particularly in sessions. He had as much right to feel able to join in, as you were having fun, playing. Read Barry's erudite post, it says it all. You perhaps need to simply brush up your skills in welcoming people. It means an awful lot to make eye contact, to have a smile given your way and a warm welcome extended. And it costs nothing.

We see folk the same way we see swingers partys... the more the merrier."

Ah well, that may explain a lot then. Swingers parties are frequented by those who don't give a damn about others, love 'em and leave 'em, use 'em and abuse 'em. Give us yer keys, hey you'll do, any old body will suffice"

Nope, that ain't folk me young shiner!

It ain't love either, but I'm sure you'll tell me it's fun.

I'll pass though, if you don't mind. I'd far rather be listening to my new Oysterband CD - 'Meet You There' It has far more sex in it than any Swingers Party!

And hey, one day, maybe I'll meet you there, down in the moshpit, where you'll find that all the ol' folkies can jump far higher than you and boogie on down with the best..

Remember, Oysters fans never grow old...they merely sparkle, ever brighter...

Now get your cheeky butt back out into the folk world, and set it on fire, with your new found ideas, and let's see you and your pals working your way up through the festivals, with the right attitude!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:20 PM

Oh PoliteGuestLizzieCornish, I wondered how long it would be before you stuck your oar in. Get over yourself - you've never even been to the Big Session. For someone who moans about the Folk Police, you can lay down the law when you want to. Pious and self-righteous much? If any of them was proclaimed to be the next Seth Lakeman, you'd be getting your post-menopausal knickers in a twist and drooling all over their melodeons (not recommended - it ruins the reeds). I recommend you stay away from The Ship during Folk Week, or you'll be coming over all queer...

Coolasfolkbrigade, the Port Drinker says please bring more port next time. And she wants a free t-shirt.

Everyone is always moaning about there not being enough young people in folk. Well, these guys are some of the front line. They're young, and shit-hot talents. Before getting arsey about whether they fiulfilled their "brief" or not, why not ask them what they were actually asked to do? Whether they were asked to lead sessions, or simply play?

I have seen them on many occasions and have never seen them ridicule other players who want to join in. I did explain that, because they play together a lot, they have developed a kind of synergy. I have watched a dozen or so other musicians gradually join them at Towersey, or at Sidmouth, or at Warwick, and have no trouble at all. But they do play collectively, and instinctively. God knows we can't have that in folk.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: PoppaGator
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:21 PM

I would certainly hope that MOST of you have learned from this experience and will interact more harmoniously next time around. The fact that most of the above exchanges have been good-humored gives us hope...

For a band, or even a group of loosely associated individual musicians, to be "booked" to "run an open session" is almost a contradiction in terms, a situation rife for misunderstanding. Are the hireliings supposed to play their own shared material as performers, or are they supposed to provide a venue and a context where random attendees can show up and feel welcomed to participate?

Acting as host/emcee is probably more difficult, or at least a less common skill, than performing. And I would think that the role of emcee would be much more effectively assigned to an experienced individual than to any group, and especially not to a group of players who are ready, willing and anxious to play the material that they have rehearsed together, and in so doing, to make other potential participants feel unwelcome. They might very well not mean to shut others out, but nevertheless they are very likely to create such an impression.

Also ~ if the "session," or "performance-masking-as-a-session" was indeed too held close to another stage/tent/venue, shame on the organizers! No one participating in or listening to either of the competing events needs to be subjected to excessive "sound bleed."

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:23 PM

Wow polite guest :o

Punters?!? They are never looked down upon... dear me... that would be financial suicide.

As I understand it, folk (and all music) has a mutual benefit for the performer and audience... "usually taking from them, for your own advantage." is not how I see a punter, client or any trade agreement. It's an agreed advantage on both sides (unless you wish to give dodgy goods del boy!).

It appears you are attacking a group of young musicians because they don't conform to your behavioural protocols NOT because they play music to your folk 'Protocols' (cos you have to leave your personality behind if you play folk music).

Do as I suggested and do the polite thing and leave if you object to something (unless it's violence, then contact the authorities... that behaviour is not tolerated!)

Please leave these guys alone and just praise them for performing what they love... I mean... come-on you dont have to play what they play and they dont have to like what you play. You both have mutually realised that you dont enjoy each others thing. Be mature and leave it at that!!!

Polite boy/girl, STOP this responsibility bollocks! they have sat at home and rehearsed these tunes that's all the responsibility you can ask for!!!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Polite Guest
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:24 PM

From you, again.."I play a great deal of genres, both for pleasure and professionally. I fail to see how we as youngsters carry a responsibility for folk music."

Folk is different. It's the music of the people. It comes with a package, not just here, but in the US and Canada too, perhaps more so over there. It comes with a 'family' and when you come into that folk world, you become part of that 'family'. You don't have to come from the right background, or talk in the right accent, although there are always those who bring in such rules and regulations, but we learn to ignore them...You merely begin to let it seep into your soul. You find a support there, a willingness to help, to be friends, to include.

Never ever make anyone feel 'excluded' in the folk world. I've been there, done that, had it thrown at me in huge dollops. It's unpleasant, it hurts, it creates very bad feeling and...it can even risk damaging how someone feels about the music.

Always, ALWAYS **INCLUDE**   In the folk world, it is part of your job, part of your life. There are some in the older folk world who still need to learn that, so please do not think you are being judged on your age, merely the attitude.

I really do wish you and your pals a great future in folk music, I hope you have tremendous fun, and success too.

Good luck.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:25 PM

"with your new found ideas, and let's see you and your pals working your way up through the festivals, with the right attitude!"

you patronising old trout. Most of this lot have been going to festivals and playing this music since they were in nappies. They come from folky families. Why the hell should they listen to the advice of someone who discovered folk rock five minutes ago and considers herself the world authority on all things folk? Including festivals she's never visited and musicians she's never even seen or heard play?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:28 PM

Whenever there is an exclusionary session, I immediately leave. It is antithetical to
the whole nature of folk music which is inclusionary and communal. These sessions are
doomed to failure because they will be dominated by egos which will eventually destroy
the session.

People (the real people) want to play and share music and entertain themselves in a group.
They are hungry for this kind of rich communication.

As the world becomes more sparse in its ability to consume, communal activities grow
and the usual way of entertainment changes. Spending money to see performers become
less of an option particularly when people realize they can entertain themselves as participants in a musical experience.

This is the future of folk music, its present and past.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:29 PM

Swingers parties are frequented by those who don't give a damn about others, love 'em and leave 'em, use 'em and abuse 'em. Give us yer keys, hey you'll do, any old body will suffice

Raar I'd hate to go to one of your Swinger parties!!!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Polite Guest
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:31 PM

From Ruth Archer:

"Oh PoliteGuestLizzieCornish, I wondered how long it would be before you stuck your oar in. Get over yourself - you've never even been to the Big Session. For someone who moans about the Folk Police, you can lay down the law when you want to. Pious and self-righteous much? If any of them was proclaimed to be the next Seth Lakeman, you'd be getting your post-menopausal knickers in a twist and drooling all over their melodeons (not recommended - it ruins the reeds). I recommend you stay away from The Ship during Folk Week, or you'll be coming over all queer..."




From me, to someone else:

"Never ever make anyone feel 'excluded' in the folk world. I've been there, done that, had it thrown at me in huge dollops. It's unpleasant, it hurts, it creates very bad feeling and...it can even risk damaging how someone feels about the music."

Therein lies the lesson of this thread.

I hope you are able to understand now young folkies, and I hope that you all go on to great things, with those words ringing in your ears. Never treat anyone like that, it's not what this world or this music is about.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Barry Finn
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:37 PM

As you went to buy yourself a drink, a nod, a wink or even a hand gesture to he guy who felt unwelcomed may have been enough to get him seated. A friendly hand on the shoulder & a "thanks for showing up" as you passed him by 'on purpose', would have encourge him to play.

Your job is/was to see that you played well with others,,,,,,all the others!

and that all the others had fun playin "well" with you! It's everybody's sand pile!

That is your responsibility.

You love the music enough to play it well-----then it is your
responsibility to make sure that says well loved & doesn't dies by mistreatment it can die off easily enough on it's own, without the help of others!!!!

You love yourself, treat others well so they'll love you in return, that's doing yourself a favor, just do that much for your music.

Treat your music & my music the same way!

We love it when you young people come onboard & do it better than us, we then know we did "OUR JOB" well. We are well satisfitied when we hear young people playing better than us, we know that what we've done & loved all our lives will continue on & is in capable & loving hands.

You will never be a threat to us "older" players & singers, you are the kids we've loved & waited for all our adult lives, ever since we were the young'uns & you will at some point pass it on to your kids,,,,,,,,,,our grandchildren, we'll love watching them become even better players than you!


Barry

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Acorn4
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:41 PM

Is this the first time Perry Como has featured on a mudcat thread.

Re the Swingers' parties, there's that great line from the Cleverly Brothers song:-

"It's all sex and booze and women - what kind of life is that?"

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:43 PM

By his own admission the guy is no new folkie on the block... this all came from a misunderstanding that Charley had about "open sessions" being advertised and only found one session that wasn't open enough for him.

Come on! this rubbish has been going on round the folk world for decades and you have chosen this point in your life to attack people younger than yourself for what ever hang up you've got, as you think that these talented young guys are responsible for someone who needs to be treated like "you have to walk on egg shells around them"!!!

Give it a rest now!

Just enjoy the music and the joy!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:47 PM

"Therein lies the lesson of this thread."

no it's not, Lizzie. Becauselife is not, in fact, all about you.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Banjiman
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:49 PM

This is one depressing thread.........

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Def Shepard
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:50 PM

Enjoying what you play, playing what you enjoy, and having a good time is really what it's all about. I know it is for me

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:50 PM

I haven't read the whole thread, but it seems to me there's been a misunderstanding, or at least a difference of opinion, about what "running a session" involves.

In my book, it means getting the ball rolling, attracting other musicians, and then giving everyone the chance to play. If there's a lull, it's your job to fill it until someone else is ready to start a tune.

It does not involve playing tune after tune, even if you are prepared to "let anyone" play with you.

Sessions are complicated things, there are a lot of expectations and assumptions and unwritten rules, and it takes time and experience to learn how to read them and how to fit in. And yes, if you're running the session you can to some extent make the rules, but make sure everyone involved understands them and is prepared to go along with them.

But if you're in a session which is not to your liking, then either put up with it or move on.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:51 PM

dunno, heated at times... passionate... silly... I think it's quite entertaining ;) lol

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Polite Guest
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:53 PM

I'm enjoying it, Banjiman, but then, amongst other things, I'm listening to The Oysterband, so I'm a very happy bunny. ;-)

25 years without them, I have one helluva lot to catch up on. They are the most FABULOUS band!

And something else too, they care deeply about their fans. Always the sign of a great band that...and it keeps your fans with you for as long as you want to perform.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Banjiman
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:54 PM

"dunno, heated at times... passionate... silly... I think it's quite entertaining ;) lol"

I can think of better ways of getting my kicks personally than 'cat baiting.

Still takes all sorts I guess.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:57 PM

"I haven't read the whole thread, but it seems to me there's been a misunderstanding, or at least a difference of opinion, about what "running a session" involves.

In my book, it means getting the ball rolling, attracting other musicians, and then giving everyone the chance to play. If there's a lull, it's your job to fill it until someone else is ready to start a tune.

It does not involve playing tune after tune, even if you are prepared to "let anyone" play with you."

No one yet has asked what they were actually ASKED to do. Were they asked to simply play, or to lead sessions? That would make quite a difference to the behaviour expected of them.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Peter Beta
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:00 PM

You're a nasty piece of work, Ruth.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Polite Guest
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:01 PM

From Ruth Archer: "you patronising old trout. Most of this lot have been going to festivals and playing this music since they were in nappies. They come from folky families. Why the hell should they listen to the advice of someone who discovered folk rock five minutes ago and considers herself the world authority on all things folk? Including festivals she's never visited and musicians she's never even seen or heard play? "


Not a clue who that's about, but I've seen the Oysters loads of times. I can't recommend them strongly enough, and their fans have to be the best in the folk world, fizzing! They're like fireworks!
Some of the warmest people I've had the pleasure of meeting in the folk world.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Cat
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:01 PM

This thread is hilarious....

I am completely bemused as to why some people will sit (have sat?) here criticising people they have never met, because they offended someone else that they have never met in a place where they weren't in the first place.

Just a quick point -

One of the 'cool as folk brigade' did offer a 'sorry we didn't realise, I'll buy you a beer next time' response to the original post (much) earlier in the thread but nobody seemed to notice... I got the impression that everyone was too busy being outraged...

I'm also quite amused by all of these patronising posts about 'our music', 'music of the people' etc etc. My experience of people who say things like this is that they are usually people who have discovered folk music later on in life, understandably fall in love with it and are very precious about it. This is all great, but it feels completely different when you are born in to it... personally I've danced since I could walk and folk is such a completely ingrained part of my life there is simply no question of whether I'm going to 'carry it on' or not. I don't play and dance because I feel I have a responsibility, I do it because I can't imagine not doing it. And for the record, I don't think I have a responsibility - as previously stated, folk is 'music of the people', therefore following that logic it belongs to whoever is playing it in that moment. I haven't played the fiddle for months (for various reasons) but it doesn't mean I'm not a folkie any more... it's not what I do, it's who I am, and so it lives on. Having said that I do think it is important to preserve the old traditions, tunes, dances etc, but the whole beauty of folk music is that it is a changing entity - just because it belongs to everyone it doesn't mean everyone has to play it the same way.

Anyway.. I digress...

I also know the young rascals in question and I think they're lovely :) Don't judge people by what you read about them, by what someone else said, or better still - at all.

I would also like a free T shirt, and one for my baby ;o)

Love Cat xxx

P.S. I found a good quote today. Can't remember who it's by. It said 'Talking about music is like dancing about nuclear physics'.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Acorn4
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:01 PM

It's not actually a depressing thread. It shows a lot of people care about what they do.

Even the "handbags at fifty paces" has been quite entertaining on this one.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:02 PM

Howard...

Each session is different, it has it's own personality brought about by the people in it! I didn't realise there were any rules per se in a session hence the added personality.

There isn't anyone person running the session, it's a group of people interacting in a session. This person didn't enjoy the interaction with them and felt he had to complain. End of story. unfortunately it didn't stop and people started attacking them cos they are young and they felt they had to "parent" them into behaving how they want their sessions to run... it doesn't work like that... it's a group of musicians who enjoy playing tunes they all know or join in if they want or sit back if they want.


Peace

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Def Shepard
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:07 PM

Acorn4 said, ""handbags at fifty paces"
oi, I prefer the heavier artillery, shoulder bag :-D

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:09 PM

it's a group of musicians who enjoy playing tunes they all know or join in if they want or sit back if they want

Um, I think Charley's entire point was that it wasn't like that.

"...played perhaps their fastest, flashiest and 'show-offy' tunes to the total exclusion of everyone else ... did not enjoy my offering (wonder why?), making sly comments, making faces and then immediatly excluding me with two sets of tunes in their aforementioned arrogant style. Said tunes went on forever..."

Sounds like they were having a lot of fun - partly at Charley's expense - but it doesn't sound like much of a session for anyone else.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:12 PM

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Banjiman - PM
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:54 PM

"dunno, heated at times... passionate... silly... I think it's quite entertaining ;) lol"

I can think of better ways of getting my kicks personally than 'cat baiting.

Still takes all sorts I guess.

did you not see my first post then on this thread then? change the thread Banjiman you are not forced here, it's like a TV, just change the channel :D

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Phil J
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:15 PM

By the way,John Montague is listed in the program as running the session, not cool as folk who it has been pointed out are not mentioned in the program at all. Also, they have not told us as requested by Charley and Ruth, what exactly they were booked to do ie, lead the session, participate in the session or do a bit of playing in the middle of the field.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Phil J
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:17 PM

Charley did right to duck out of this one, it was a losing battle.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Polite Guest
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:19 PM

Do CAF have a Myspace page? I can't seem to find one, other than a Cool As Folk music venue.

It would be good to hear them.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:20 PM

The clones pick and choose what they allow to stand from Guest posters. So in reality, they control the spin.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Doh
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:23 PM

Do CAF have a Myspace page? I can't seem to find one

Doh.

not cool as folk who it has been pointed out are not mentioned in the program at all

Doh.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:24 PM

From: Phil Edwards - PM
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:09 PM

I'm not condoning that behaviour, but I cant say that happened or not, I wasn't there. All I have is both sides and an apology - then a load of people attacking them for being young!?! which I CAN see and cannot accept. Plus a load having a laugh cos it's a silly argument.

we're all supposed to be adults here and we may have just attacked the younger generation of musicians due to someone's paranoid delusion (not saying you are suffering one charley it may seem very real to you!) but you get my point.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:26 PM

No Peace. Once the British trolls sink their teeth in, I don't want to have anything to do with it. I've tried to stop the bitch-fest, the baiting and the bullying but without some other help, it's impossible.

If Max wants them to be able to take over with their hatred and what looks like a complete lack of self control or shame, then the place is theirs.

I don't fucking 'pick and choose'. I try, then I give up.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Barry Finn
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:26 PM

How many ways can one discribe an open session?

My take was based on the statemnet high above was "they were "invited" & "booked"!

So they were to lead an "open session", lead means that somewhere there is some form of responsibility!

If I'm off on this then "strighen me out"

We love our children unconditionally when they are not responsibile, once they become responsible they need to earn their own way!
Some need to be taught this,,,,often, some never learn!

Barry, whowasateensomethingyoung'unwhenhestartedoutinthefolkworld

Being born into something, anything, is an accident of nature.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:27 PM

Well, as R2D2 said:

Magic, moments,
When two hearts are carin',
Magic, moments,
Memories we've been sharin'. . .
I'll never forget the moment we kissed,
The night of the hayride,
The way that we hugged to try to keep warm,
While takin' a sleigh ride.
Magic, moments,
Memories we've been sharin',
Magic, moments,
When two hearts are carin' . . .
Time can't erase the memory of,
These magic, moments,
Filled with love!
whistling . . .
The telephone call that tied up the line,
For hours and hours,
The Saturday dance, I got up the nerve,
To send you some flowers.
Magic, moments,
Memories we've been sharin',
Magic, moments,
When two hearts are carin' . . .
Time can't erase the memory of,
These magic, moments,
Filled with love!
The way that we cheered,
Whenever our team,
Was scoring a touchdown!
The time that the floor,
Fell out of my car,
When I put the clutch down!
The penny arcade,
The games that we played,
The fun and the prizes!
The Halloween hop,
When everyone came,
In funny disguises.
Magic, moments,
Filled with love!
whistling . . .

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Polite Guest
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:27 PM

"I'm also quite amused by all of these patronising posts about 'our music', 'music of the people' etc etc. My experience of people who say things like this is that they are usually people who have discovered folk music later on in life, understandably fall in love with it and are very precious about it."


Nope, I'm not 'precious' about it. I want more people to hear it, enjoy it, know about it, but it would be such a shame if it became like 'any other music'. It *is* special, tough, because people care about it.

One of the 'cool as folk brigade' did offer a 'sorry we didn't realise, I'll buy you a beer next time' response to the original post (much) earlier in the thread but nobody seemed to notice... I got the impression that everyone was too busy being outraged...

Sorry lads and lasses, I hadn't spotted that bit. Apologies from me. I'll leave others to make their own. Thanks Cat, for telling us.

I'd still like to hear them though, if it's possible.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:32 PM

Er, where is the bit about cool as folk buying Charley a beer?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Acorn4
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:37 PM

I hope Charley will return to the post as he's set off quite a powder keg here.

Charley, you said:-

"Without blowing my own trumpet, I think I made a reasonable fist of this."

This reminds me a bit of those football managers who say "If I was the sort of person who makes excuses I'd blame all the injuries the team has had lately" .

You were obviously worried about the blow to your confidence, and until late in the thread I didn't realise that you were quite new to the folk scene. I think I overlapped slightly with you in that session but wasn't there for when you did the solo. Acoustic guitar would just not carry well in a situation like that in a marquee because a guitar doesn't have that penetration.

Confidence has to be built up over a number of years and when you have had a lot of positive experiences, you don't worry too much about the negative ones , which happen to even the most seasoned of performers. Sometimes it's just a case of "horses for courses" and on some days there seems to ne just "something in the air" for no explicable reason. I had a blazing row with my wife over going to the same session instead of listening to a concert!

I'm not sure if you are local to the area but please don't think this is typical of Leicestershire . I know John Montague who ran the session well and he runs a monthly open mike at East Goscote - I can assure you you will be welcomed and listened to as you will be in the vast range of acoustic venues in the East Midlands.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:40 PM

'WrightOldRacket' at 3:36 Mudcat time:

U know what I was trying to be diplomatic but forget it.

Maybe some people feel fucked over by the way some other people behaved but shit, that happens. It was unintentional.

Come and introduce yourself next time we in the same field and I'll buy U a beer. Maybe we can start a fresh?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:43 PM

until late in the thread I didn't realise that you were quite new to the folk scene

Eh?

Charley: "I am not a beginner, I have nearly 20 years gigging experience with a wide range of people. I am paid to play every weekend."

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Acorn4
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:43 PM

Oh to add, Charlie, John Montague's website:-

www.montysmusic.com

And to "Cool as Folk" - I'm not into T-shirts but I'll have a pint off you for sticking up for you in one or two places in this thread !

How's that for politics!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Acorn4
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:46 PM

Sorry, I misunderstood a bit - just don't see how your confidence could be knocked by one bad experience after 20 years experience playing - still, apparently Ralph McTell is still a bag of nerves before a gig!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:46 PM

"I'd still like to hear them though, if it's possible."

go to a festival. They attend lots of them, as has been pointed out earlier in the thread.

"Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Peter Beta - PM
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:00 PM

You're a nasty piece of work, Ruth."

Please. I am defending people I know and have musical respect for against people who don't know them, have never seen or heard them play, have never been to the bloody festival they're heatedly defending, and are judging based on the moan (with the greatest of respect) of one person who felt excluded.

When the Big Session asked me for a recommendation of people who could POPULATE A SESSION (not lead it) and keep the music going over the weekend, I had no hesitation recommending these guys. They've performed the same role for me in the past. And, having seen how they play and behave in a session situation on numerous occasions, I would not hesitate to recommend them again.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Acorn4
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:55 PM

Sorry, the link to John's site doesn't seem to work but if you type in:-

www.montysmusic.com   

in Explorer it will coonect you to the site.

Great bloke who does a lot for music in the E.Mids.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,FolkisCool
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 07:05 PM

You will not find any reference anywhere to Cool as Folk Brigade or any such as this is a term originating from the OP possibly based on the T-Shirt worn by one of the musicians which has written upon it the words "Folk is Cool".

So can we all agree to disagree? There is plenty of talent at session young and old, choose a session that suits you and be happy or if you're not happy and you think you stand for the majority there do not wait until afetr the event to come on here and start a flame war, stand up for your beliefs and make them heard.

I know all of the individuals who play togather at sessions regularly and I dont believe they would deliberately exclude someone from the session although I can understand how it may have been misread as such.

Let it be, this post has gone on long enough now for a missunderstanding.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 07:15 PM

Anytime I am involved in a session, and I have been for the last forty seven years, I am grateful for the sight of young people with commitment to the kind of music I have loved for all those years.

I am prepared to make allowances for the fact that they were born into a different world than the one I grew up in. When I was a kid, you respected your elders, no matter what. This is no longer true. These days you don't get respect by living a long time (except, possibly in China), you have to EARN it.

In the days of the "Folk Revival" (actually, it was more a case of "It's always been there, but we've only just noticed it"), we were the brash and arrogant little upstarts who drove the old 'uns mad.

Now it's our turn to find there are things about the younger generation that we DON'T like. Situation normal!

One thing I will always like is a young folkie. If he is inadvertently less than respectful, he will respond to a quiet word of advice. If he is genuinely rude and arrogant, he will, at some point, have have the rough edges ground off by his contemporaries.

If these young people of CAF, were booked to lead, then perhaps they were not well advised as to how that is best achieved. When I delegate, I ensure that the person is completely aware of my requirements, and if those requirements are not met that person WILL hear from me.

The bottom line is that we should, IMO, not walk away, but persist in showing the respect for young people, that we complain about not getting FROM young people.

That is probably the only way to get the message across, that we know that, just as they can learn from us, WE CAN LEARN FROM THEM.

Don T.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 07:19 PM

One of the things I have always like about you, Don T, is your common sense.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 07:22 PM

"If these young people of CAF, were booked to lead, then perhaps they were not well advised as to how that is best achieved. When I delegate, I ensure that the person is completely aware of my requirements, and if those requirements are not met that person WILL hear from me."

for me, this is the key. I don't think they were booked to run sessions - it's a very different role. Perhaps the festival didn't make its requirements clear - but it sounds like someone else was actually booked to run sessions. My understanding is that, in the past, actual players have been a bit thin on the ground. These guys were brought in to play and keep the music going.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 07:29 PM

If these young people of CAF, were booked to lead

The way I'm reading things at the moment, it seems more to provide a presence and ensure at least some music is happening but I guess one could still make a case for perhaps backing off a bit, etc...

But a problem with these threads is many of us jump on the report we most believe, perhaps best matches our own beliefs over what a session should be like but weren't there ourselves.

In my first post I had said "(and I might not have thought much of those involved)" but that's just one possibility and why I put it in brackets. I might have found them a nice bunch but not for me, etc. (or perhaps if I was there I'd be thinking what's the originator on about, etc.). Fact is, without being present, I can't know.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Acorn4
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 07:34 PM

Godd common sense, Don and good to hear from you again -see you at Sidmouth.

Very late

Heads under wings, beaks under blankets, all eyes closed...

Goodnight!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,dizzyLisa
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 07:38 PM

Not quite yet....
232 posts in 10 hours....quite impressive
233 now !

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 07:41 PM

Which way for the free t-shirts?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 07:44 PM

Yeah.

X-large for me. (They shrink in the dryer. I like the 'loose' feel.)

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Barry Finn
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 07:50 PM

"Booked as a presence", "may the farce be with us"

Heh, Heh, Heh

Orsen Wells meets George Orwell

the session & this thread sounds like a cross between "War of the Worlds" & "Animal Farm".

Maybe the organgrinders should figure out where they went astray

To bad, kind of a shame that this's all gone to shit when there was so much potential


Was it fun? No
Was it enjoyable? No
Was it interesting? Yes
Was it educational, Very
But it's still ashame!

Doesn't matter about the age, everybody needs to grow up

Barry

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Barry Finn
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 07:52 PM

Sorry, I should not have said everybody, but them that need to grow know who they are

Barry

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 08:16 PM

OK, fair enough. My world is different than yours. In my world, folks running a session, where it is advertised that folks should bring an instrument and join in, means that a classy person (that is a gender and age neutral term) who is running the session would try to make all welcome.

As to my comment about Toronto and Nashville, it wasn't designed to indicate anything about me, other than I have been around players that are very good, and their attitudes towards others that are not at their level of developement have a much greater level of graciousness than what I see from these folks here. I am not worried about what you think of me, you see, because when you all fall on your arses because you aren't getting your due, these players will still be getting paid to perform. So go ahead and run your mouths, but most of you will be a memory on the music scene when the folks I am speaking of will still be drawing a check.

Based on what I see here, Charley is very likely being over sensitive. If he has the level of exposure to the scene that his posts indicate, he should understand we see young turks come and go all the time. They are flashy, but never mature. Their stock in trade is to belittle, be flashy and then disappear. Good riddance. A few will last, and usually learn the lessons of time. Those that stay arrogant usually flash brightly, then turn into to hard bitten people bemoaning why folks don't see their talent.

That is the way of folk. It is bigger than the performers, will be here when the know it alls are gone, and emerge when needed to hook another generation.

So fire away, young folks. Just don't get too anxious when some of us don't get all that jaundiced.

And keep playing the music. It will teach you humility.

Mick

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 08:22 PM

I like your take on the folk world, Mick - but do you really think it's the nice guys who end up with the most enduring careers? The music industry is full of stories about people who are arrogant, difficult or "precious". Interestingly, they can be some of the greatest talents.

I realise this is completely off topic...

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 08:34 PM

"I realise this is completely off topic..."

WHAAAT topic?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 08:51 PM

Yes, Ruth, I understand that is the case on occasion. But when I look at the truly enduring artists (remember that I am from the States), say a Jean Ritchie, or Pete Seeger, and I am sure that you can give me many examples from your turf, are usually very gracious. That is not to say that I haven't encountered some complete twits, but the never last long. Folks figure them out.

Enough of this. Let's continue on another thread. This one is getting boring.

Mick

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Bert
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 08:51 PM

It isn't really about music or about age.

I have seen exactly the same behaviour from a clique of middle aged guitar players at a very well known club in Pennsylvania. I just gave up going to that club. One of the guys actually said words to the effect that if you want to play then you have to push in.

If that is what I wanted to do I would have joined a Rugby club.

And one time a real old fart came into an impromptu session at one of the getaways. He just pushed in and took, over asking his favorites to play out of turn. We all left him and his gang doing THEIR thing and went and played somewhere else.

If your are paid to run a session and a stranger turns up then it is just good manners to make them feel welcome and part of the group.

The only time that it is acceptable to keep doing your own stuff and ignore other musicians, is if you are up on stage giving a performance.

The way that those players treated Charley was arrogant and selfish. They are probably too old to learn manners now and we will soon forget them.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 08:54 PM

Yes, good friend Bert. That is why I said that "....classy person (that is a gender and age neutral term) who is running the session would try to make all welcome." This isn't about age, exactly. But it is a hallmark of many young talented folks.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Saggy
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 09:12 PM

I blame Mr. Diamond for this thread going on so long, all his shit stirring......Peace and Love!!! How Dare You!! ;p

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,dizzyLisa
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 09:35 PM

"They are probably too old to learn manners now and we will soon forget them"   

Most unlikely (well on the 2nd count anyway!) As I'm more than twice their age, I'm pretty sure most of them will still be doing this long after I'm gone...and if they're as good as this now......!?!
I'm not saying they are the ONLY young musicians-far from it, but they act as a magnet to other quality musicians. It's often irritating as 1/2 the space is filled with people JUST listening so you can't get in to play....

Yeah Houston....you young upstart... How can you speak with any authority when you've only been going to festivals for your whole life.
Tut tut for wasting time in your previous incarnation!!!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Polite Guest
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:41 AM

"You will not find any reference anywhere to Cool as Folk Brigade or any such as this is a term originating from the OP possibly based on the T-Shirt worn by one of the musicians which has written upon it the words "Folk is Cool"."


Just a thought here, but if this thread is to be about anything, other than a few lessons being learned, why not have it as the birth of a new folk 'supergroup' called (altogether now)...

'Cool As Folk'

Get yourselves recorded somehow, put some photos, info and tracks up on a Myspace page and VOILA!

Stop being 'insignificant', get yourselves organised, get yourselves together and....get going on getting yourselves 'out there' where *everyone* can find you, see you and hear you.

Harness your talent, your energy and enthusiasm and you'll be surprised what may start to happen.

Out of the ashes and all that...

Oh and...watch out Bellowhead! :-)

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,FolkisCool
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 03:13 AM

"Stop being 'insignificant', get yourselves organised, get yourselves together and....get going on getting yourselves 'out there' where *everyone* can find you, see you and hear you."

These guys and gals are by no means insignificant, watch this space!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Acorn4
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 03:20 AM

You mean Cool as Folk aren't in Bellowhead!

I thought everyone was in Bellowhead!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Alan Day
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 03:20 AM

In an attempt to bring this back to the original subject,I would like to ask this question.
At a session do you think popular tunes should be played so everyone joins in,or do you think it rude to play tunes that nobody knows.
Al

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 03:24 AM

*sigh*

just because you don't know about them, Lizzie, doesn't make them "insignificant". One of them, who has been posting on this thread, is in one of Eliza Carthy's bands. A bunch of them (who have a band, and a Myspace site, though I'm not surprised they don't want to share it with the vindictive and/or patronising bunch they've met here) will be playing a ceilidh at Sidmouth again this year.

Believe it or not, they're doing just fine without your help and "support". In fact, going on past form, I'd say that's probably the last thing the poor blokes (and girl) need.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Acorn4
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 03:27 AM

Their music isn't just empty virtuosity, the fiddles do all sorts of harmonies, cross rhythms and is eminently listenable. I think that green eyed monster has been in evidence on some of the posts. One or two of the posters have implied that they are some kind of chavs -but you don't get as good as they are without hours of hard work and practice - CAF obviously don't spend all their free time watching Big Brother so let's be grateful in that sense.

If you're good then you can perhaps be excused a bit of arrogance.

It's if you're mediocre and arrogant that it gets really annoying.

But of course there's no one like that on the folk scene, is there?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 03:28 AM

Acorn, you're right: everyone IS in Bellowhead. In fact, that's what we should do with this very silly thread: Six Degrees of Bellowhead. How many steps would it take for you to be called up as a dep?

I make it four, and I can only play one tune on my melodeon. :)

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Banjiman
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 03:35 AM

"If you're good then you can perhaps be excused a bit of arrogance."

Why?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 03:43 AM

Can I have a T-shirt too please? 3XL? My original Inspiral Carpets "Cool as fuck" T-shirt doesn't fit any more.

And can I be included next time you play? I work a simple system. Tell me the key, and I'll play in it (with a few seconds to get the capo on). If I'm not playing the note you are, it's harmony. If I'm not playing the same beat you are, it's syncopation. If I can't manage either of those, it's jazz.

I'm not sure I want the post-meonpausal knickers though, Ruth. Well, I might, I haven't met the owner. But that comment was a bit out of order.

I'm torn. I'm sure the kids are brilliant, and every so often here there seems a flash of fun (like the largely misunderstood one about getting young girls pissed and then finding them too old - a bit like a remark about the drummer in Captain Beefheart's band when I saw them live decades ago - quite a bit ruder than the well known Jim Morrison comment), but there does also seem to be a thread of defensive hostility from some of the (I infer) posse, and there can be little doubt that the OP was made to feel very unwelcome.

We don't need kid-bashing (or granny-bashing). We don't want pomp and self-importance.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,FolkisCool
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 03:49 AM

I think you'll find these are not kids but young adults, very talented young adults.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 04:13 AM

Ruth Archer has said the youngsters were invited to "populate" the session, they thought they were there to lead it. Either way, the role of a session leader is to get it going, keep it going if there's a lull, and make sure eveyone gets involved. It's not to play tune after tune for others to join in with if they can. But most likely these youngsters were just having a good time and got a bit carried away.

Perhaps the youngsters were a bit insensitive (as youngsters will be) and perhaps the OP was a bit oversensitive, for someone of his experience. Hopefully everyone will have learned something from this.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 04:16 AM

Young adults acting like kids perhaps?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 04:20 AM

Ruth,

Why not bring your melodeon out in Bampton next year? Or the Morris party if you are there?

To be honest I think its difficult to get the right balance at sessions - after a few beers I tend to get a bit carried away, and play some fairly obscure tunes, play too fast etc. However if anyone else does that I can sometimes get a bit annoyed. Other times I just sit back and enjoy it. The huge range of factors makes everything difficult to analyse - location, type of session, quantity of beer drunk, type of beer drunk, all make different people react differently to different situations - there is no one answer to making all sessions great - although more communication makes things a lot easier. If you have introduced yourself to people and had a chat they will naturally be more receptive to you joining in. Human nature i guess.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 04:45 AM

I think someone actually saying 'sorry we offended you' - or even 'sorry if we offended you' - would have gone a long way towards putting this thread to rest. The most we seem to have heard from anyone on the "CAF" side is "hey, people get offended sometimes, shit happens, let's just forget about it" - which is friendly enough but falls some way short of taking responsibility for anything.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Polite Guest
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 05:00 AM

: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer - PM
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 03:24 AM

*sigh*

just because you don't know about them, Lizzie, doesn't make them "insignificant". One of them, who has been posting on this thread, is in one of Eliza Carthy's bands. A bunch of them (who have a band, and a Myspace site, though I'm not surprised they don't want to share it with the vindictive and/or patronising bunch they've met here) will be playing a ceilidh at Sidmouth again this year.

Believe it or not, they're doing just fine without your help and "support". In fact, going on past form, I'd say that's probably the last thing the poor blokes (and girl) need.















Another lesson in rudeness.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Polite Guest
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 05:00 AM

"These guys and gals are by no means insignificant, watch this space!"

Yeehaa! That's the spirit! That's EXACTLY how I wanted you to feel...angry!

So, come on then....prove it to us!

Let's see that page up and running and let's hear you, see you! That way we can send you out to others, and get your music whizzing around Myspace too. And also you can send your page out to festivals.

Here's a page where you can find a lot of them, on Myspace.

a href="http://www.myspace.com/folkallthis ">'Folk This Festivals' myspace page

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Polite Guest
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 05:03 AM

Oops! Something weird happened to the link there...Try this: :0)

'Folk This Festivals' - myspace page

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 05:15 AM

I thing you'll find the responsibility rests on the person whom is offended... They may need counselling?!?

These guys are very talented young adults who have been brought up in sessions and festivals etc... they don't need a lecture from anyone here!!!

Get over your pompous idea of what the protocols in the folk world should be and just enjoy what these guys can do.

BTW... I really like you Ruth, you have made a lot of sense, if any of these people could leave their "I need to parent" urges behind and got to know them they would see they are great people.

I mean... how many here attacking are actually parents? or how many had parents who spent most of their time at folk events? Can you not empathise with these guys?

It's not the first time I have heard someone complaining about not getting the welcome they expected at a session and it wont be the last. It's an unfortunate trait that humans have to misconstrue a situation which is what it sounds like has happened here. It has turned into this ageist argument cos people seem to want to latch on and attack for what ever reason (envy, because their different etc.)

Stop begging for an apology and just accept that shit happens and not everyone is destined to get on!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 05:23 AM

Polite guest - do as your name suggests and politely walk away from the argument and stop badgering Ruth cos you can give it a rest!!!

Just get over it. You can't change people by having a view of "I know best" attitude and attacking will only push people further away from wanting to hear your point of view.

STOP BEING NEGATIVE!!!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 05:23 AM

Yea, Right on baby! Sounds like they're all living out their parents' dreams for them.
I hope Harry Enfield gets a hold of this "Folk Family" idea. He'll have a field day with it.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 05:28 AM

I know a few of their MySpace pages but TBH it's not for me to give you them as I feel it's not for you to judge them... Judge not lest ye be judged ring any bells?!?

You have more than likely have seen them because they have been on the scene a long time and have pulled crowds in for almost as long. That's all you need to know.

Get over it!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 05:33 AM

May I offer one word of advice to our young friends, as someone who has also been booked to 'perform' at a 'session?'

If you feel you're supposed to be doing a sort of gig (and perhaps don't actually know that many well-known tunes anyway), but people are arriving with instruments clearly wanting to join in, all you have to do is explain the situation.

Do some of your own stuff first, then open out the event and let others have a turn, and then perhaps finish with a little set of your own for those who've come to listen to your band.

That way you're fulfilling your contract while still being inclusive.

But actually it's really down to the festival to provide the right information. 'Session' is another word with too many meanings. It needs a phrase to qualify what people should expect - then this sort of thing shouldn't happen.

Tom

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Polite Guest
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 05:45 AM

From HD: "STOP BEING NEGATIVE!!!"


Oh right, sorry if wanting to see and hear them is negative. I hadn't realised that. Silly me. But now you've brought it to my attention I can see how daft an idea it was...

After all, who would want to hear them?   Right?

Or see them? Right?

Or know anything about them? Right?

Gee whizz, I can't think why I didn't understand that before. Doh!

Thank you so much for pointing it out to me, and I'm sure the 'band' will take your advice and continue to remain incognito, for after all, that is the way to get on in the music world. :0)

By George! I think I've got it!

Pure Positivity = Being completely unknown.

BRILLIANT idea! Absolutely brilliant!   ;0)

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 05:49 AM

"You have more than likely have seen them because they have been on the scene a long time"

Ah, Houston...this presumes our Polite Guest has been on the scene a long time. In fact, many of the musicians we've been discussing have been around folk maybe 4 times as long as she has, despite the fact that they're half her age. And she doesn't really seem to go to many festivals, except for Sidmotuh - because she lives there.

But now she knows where to find us all during Folk Week - mine's a pint of Old Rosie. Anyone else?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Polite Guest
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 05:50 AM

From HD:

"Polite guest - do as your name suggests and politely walk away from the argument"


I should maybe just explain about my name. I chose it to stop myself from telling complete and utter prats to stick their heads up their ars*.

Just so you understand.

Thanks very much

:0)

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Stu
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 05:52 AM

It occurred on the evening before Waterloo,
And t'troops were lined up on parade,
The Sergeant inspecting 'em he were a terror,
Of whom every man was afraid

All excepting one man who was in the front rank,
A man by the name of Sam Small,
And 'im and the Sergeant were both 'daggers drawn',
They thought nowt of each other at all

As Sergeant walked past he were swinging his arms,
And he happened to brush against Sam,
And knocking his musket clean out of his hand,
It fell to the ground with a slam

'Pick it up' said t'Sergeant, abrupt like but cool,
But Sam with a shake of his head,
'Seeing as tha' knocked it out of me hand,
P'raps tha'll pick the thing up instead.

'Sam, Sam, pick up thy musket,'
The Sergeant exclaimed with a roar,
Sam said 'Tha knocked it down, reet! then tha'll pick it up,
Or it'll stay where it is on't floor

The sound of high words very soon reached the ears,
Of an Officer, Lieutenant Bird,
Who says to the Sergeant, 'Now what's all this ere?'
And the Sergeant told what had occurred.

'Sam, Sam, pick up thy musket'
Lieutenant exclaimed with some heat,
Sam said, 'He knocked it down reet! Then he'll pick it up,
Or it stays where it is, at me feet

It caused quite a stir when the Captain arrived,
To find out the cause of the trouble,
And every man there, all except Sam,
Was full of excitement and bubble

'Sam, Sam, pick up thy musket',
Said Captain for strictness renowned,
Sam said 'He knocked it doon, Reet! so he'll pick it up,
Or it stays where it is on't ground

The same thing occurred when the Major and Colonel,
Both tried to get Sam to see sense,
But when Old Duke o' Wellington came into view,
Well the excitement was really quite tense

Up rode the Duke on a loverly white 'orse,
To find out the cause of the bother,
He looked at the musket and then at Old Sam,
And he talked to Old Sam like a brother

'Sam, Sam, pick up thy musket'
The Duke said as quiet as could be,
'Sam, Sam pick up thi musket,
Coom on lad, just to please me

'Alright Duke,' said Old Sam, 'just for thee I'll oblige,
And to show thee I meant no offence',
So Sam picked it up, 'Gradely, lad' said the Duke,
'Right-o boys... let battle commence.'

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,sadness not anger
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 05:52 AM

Hi all, just been reading this amazing thread.

Clearly the only thing some of us have in common is folk music and nothing else. Some people are lovely, some are not, just like in the outside world.

My husband was a professional folk musician for many years in a respected band. He was always aware that there were musicians who were technically better than him and hadn't had his success, but one reason was clear to me. He was liked as a person as well as a musician.

Really guys, that's half the battle. We could get really philosophical and ask if music exists without someone to listen to it. The fact is, music is a means of communication between people and it doesn't always work if someone puts a barrier in place, as Charley found out.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 05:53 AM

Stop making assumptions Tom...

I know that in almost every session in the past 20~30 years I've been to that it's horses for courses... if you're not happy with a session then you learn from the experience and move on...

These guys do perform gigs (where you just listen unless invited) and also perform at sessions (where you can try and join in if you think you can), stop patronising them because they know the etiquette and protocols better then anyone.

They may have been playing tunes excessively fast but if you're not up for the challenge don't do it else try and keep up! They are not gonna get upset because you do or dont play along, likewise they are not going to force themselves to listen to something they are not keen on!

You oldies take advise and remember how it was when you started at these sessions... Were you lucky enough to have everyone stop and make way for you? were you accepted into the session with open arms? If you were then you would be in the minority because you need a shed load of confidence to shine in that environment and thick skin to not notice the people that aren't paying attention to your brilliance!!!

Stop this 'I have to give advise' and 'it weren't like that in my day attitudes' because if you truly looked into your past then I am sure you will find a load of experiences of sessions similar going back to year dot!

Just be happy and happiness with ensue... Be positive and encourage them for the talents they have and stop bitching and moaning because you dont match up with either their skill or their tastes in music!!!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 05:53 AM

"Pure Positivity = Being completely unknown. "

No, Lizzie, just unknown TO YOU. Playing ceilidhs at a major festival and playing in Eliza's band hardly equates to obscurity.

Maybe, like so many musicians in the folk world, they're simply hiding when you turn up.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 05:56 AM

"Ruth,

Why not bring your melodeon out in Bampton next year? Or the Morris party if you are there?"

bless you you, Joe! I would love to think that if I got my finger out and practiced more, i might be ready for next May Bank. But then I remember all the brilliant musicians that are there and rather bottle it.

Mind you, I've got a very convincing photo of myself "playing" next to Saul Rose at one of the Towersey sessions last year...if I just press the buttons without squeezing, does that count...? :)

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Polite Guest
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 05:57 AM

From Ruth Archer:

"Ah, Houston...this presumes our Polite Guest has been on the scene a long time. In fact, many of the musicians we've been discussing have been around folk maybe 4 times as long as she has, despite the fact that they're half her age. And she doesn't really seem to go to many festivals, except for Sidmotuh - because she lives there.

But now she knows where to find us all during Folk Week - mine's a pint of Old Rosie. Anyone else?"





And yet another lesson in rudeness...

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Polite Guest
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 06:02 AM

From Stigweard:

'Sam, Sam, pick up thy musket',
Said Captain for strictness renowned,
Sam said 'He knocked it doon, Reet! so he'll pick it up,
Or it stays where it is on't ground.."


Oh Stig!!!

FANTASTIC!!

I'm right back at Otley Folk Festival now...(you know, one of those festivals I've never been to) listening to the wonderful John Tams. (you know, one of those musicians I've never seen perform)

He sat there on the stage, red socks glowing in the wind... ;0) and gave us the most beautiful rendition of that piece. He is absolute magic!

NOW then! If there is one person who knows how to treat his audience, it's John Tams! Marvellous man.

Thank you for bringing that lovely memory back. xx

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 06:02 AM

Polite Guest... I am truly sorry.

You kind of come across as being attacking and that is my bad. I am sure you have heard them... Since you're a Sidders person, They all played in the Ship loads last year and on the campsite almost every night.

I am extremely rubbish at performing in sessions but I try my best and I have never remembered feeling unwelcome by these guys despite being 10 years their senior.

In fact I find them to be very encouraging and I know of at least one that teach those around 20 years younger than them...

I just want this to be a happy folk thread but obviously there are a lot of people who are passionate about the subject.

I know we all still love each other and respect what each other do and I think that is another couple of this we all have in common ( I hope :D )

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 06:03 AM

I'd call it a lesson in reality, Lizzie. Stop preaching to people who have forgotten more than you'll ever know about folk. End of.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Polite Guest
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 06:13 AM

"Stop making assumptions Tom..."

Having seen Tom Bliss perform (or was it a dream?...so many performers that I've apparently never seen, according to one person in here) I can only say Houston, that Tom is a performer for whom I have a great deal of respect.

He is courteous, kind, brilliant to watch and listen to, and one of the great story songwriters that we have in this country.

I'm just off to put his 'Boat To Barhou' song on my page, utterly beautiful.

If Tom was running a session, ALL would be included, not only that, but they would also be made to feel most welcome, and they would leave that session feeling very good about themselves, for Tom is good manners personified, as can be seen from almost every post he writes.

May I politely suggest that you learn a few lessons from him.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 06:14 AM

"Were you lucky enough to have everyone stop and make way for you? were you accepted into the session with open arms?"

No, and I would not have expected it, and still would not. Anyone going to a session is advised to do so in the knowledge that they might not fit in, for any number of reasons.

But if a band is booked either to lead a session, or to play a sort of gig at an event that has been named (wrongly, perhaps) a session, then I think the organisers would expect them to show willing, and to engage with whoever turns up as best they can - and that would be the most professional approach anyway.

If no-one has been booked to lead a session then it mostly goes with the majority, but as I understand it, this was not the case here.

Tom

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 06:15 AM

I must admit... I think my dad used to put a lot of people in a session out, sometimes by playing the accordion but most the time by being able to drown out instruments with the sheer power of his voice... not saying it was right but he still gained a great audience response :s

I always remember the way my granddad stopped a session or 2 in the 80s with his highland bagpipes (but they really enjoyed that too :D )

But I am so glad that my name isn't Hugh too :s Houston is so much nicer ;p lol

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 06:16 AM

I hope the mods are noting that it's not Polite Guest who is causing the friction here, it's Ruth Archer.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 06:18 AM

You oldies take advise and remember how it was when you started at these sessions... Were you lucky enough to have everyone stop and make way for you? were you accepted into the session with open arms?

It took time of course. It still can take time for me to feel really comfortable but I no longer want to dive in but like to take some time trying to understand the session, the people and to work my way in gently.

At a one off session, you don't have that time though so perhaps there is a case for some effort being made to pull others in?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 06:19 AM

These guys do perform gigs (where you just listen unless invited) and also perform at sessions (where you can try and join in if you think you can)

I don't think that's most people's definition of a session.

stop patronising them because they know the etiquette and protocols better then anyone

What was the name of this outfit again - Considerably More Talent Than Yow?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 06:25 AM

"I hope the mods are noting that it's not Polite Guest who is causing the friction here, it's Ruth Archer."

I would refer my learned friend to Polite Guest Lizzie Cornish's posts of 4:15 and 4:18 pm yesterday.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Polite Guest
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 06:25 AM

Sorry Houston, I posted that without having seen your apology. However, I still stand by what I've said about Tom. I have not 'attacked' anyone in here, if you look at my posts more carefully you will see that.

I have however, been attacked, repeatedly, by one poster. I do not and will not respond to such low behaviour any longer, because those posts say far more about the poster, than I ever could.

I hope you have a lovely Sidmouth. I, these days, no longer enjoy it in the same way I once did, because the constant baiting, rudeness and attacks make me want to stay away from much of it now. I no longer write about it, where once I wrote 15,000 words about it. The joy has been replaced by a seething anger, brought about by those who deem this world to be theirs.

Sidmouth was once one of my great loves. That love has died. I hope those who have managed to achieve that, feel proud of themselves.

But I still love the music, still play it, still write about it, from time to time, but no, not as I once did.

Result?

You tell me....

I no longer understand those who seek to destroy this wonderful world, who seek to exclude, or humiliate someone, over and over and over.

So yes, good manners, kindness, thoughtfulness, can take this world out to pastures new. Bad manners or downright unpleasantness however, can destroy it. It is therefore vital to ensure that younger people and indeed (and far more sadly) some OLDER people understand that.

It is the older people who have been on my back for so long, never the youngsters...in fact some of them have been downright supportive, and I thank them all for that.

For the younger ones to be taught by gracious people, such as Tom Bliss, is an excellent thing.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 06:30 AM

If no-one has been booked to lead a session then it mostly goes with the majority, but as I understand it, this was not the case here.

It was advertised as an open session... they were asked by the organisers to fill it out... they were in the majority and no-one was booked to 'lead' the session.

Having seen Tom Bliss perform (or was it a dream?...so many performers that I've apparently never seen, according to one person in here) I can only say Houston, that Tom is a performer for whom I have a great deal of respect.

I am not attacking Tom's abilities as a session leader or performer, I am merely stating that there are a lot of people assuming what happened in a session when all they have is a version of events from a disgruntled session player and a load of support to slate them because they are young.

I respect you all and I know that you love folk as much as myself and these guys do... I just want to be able to make you happy people and not attacking people. Give advise at the time when it will make a difference... creating a thread full of Chinese whispers does not help in the advise department especially when directing it to youngsters because of the assumption that they are inexperienced... the advise should be broad based to all ages...

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,FolkisCool
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 06:31 AM

Well if someone is getting a round in at the ship I'll have a Magners if they have any left or Gaymers I think we ended up on last year when that ran out!

Cheers.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 06:38 AM

Cider... hmm, I'll send you a bottle made not far from me Wroxham Barns. They sometimes sell bottles of it at one of the pubs I go to for a session but I find 7% (I think) a bit too much and I find this one very easy to drink...

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 06:38 AM

Polite Guest... please dont let them get you down... I have had similar experiences but I get over it move on and find some great performances to put the experience behind me.

I will have to find you in the Ship this year and buy you what ever your poison is. :D

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,FolkisCool
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 06:59 AM

We constantly abuse Houston and he keeps coming back for more, after all what are friends for! :P

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 07:01 AM

well the alcohol helps ;) lol

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 07:03 AM

Is anyone going to Teignmouth this weekend? Some great pubs and sessions I remember from last year, just wished I was on the campsite considering they have a session tent there :D

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: The Barden of England
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 07:06 AM

It's the 'Youngs Special' for me at 'The Ship'. See you there - and in 'The Bedford' too I hope.
John Barden

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 07:10 AM

Yeah, I kinda owe Clive a song at the Bedford... I promised him at the Ashby-de-la-Zouch folk club on the Friday last year...

Meet you there John :D

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Graham and Jo
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 07:19 AM

What a lot posted. I've lost the thread of this thread. Apart from the Eliza Carthy Band, which performers do you Cool as Folk young folk come to festivals with?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: The Barden of England
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 07:26 AM

300!!!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 08:40 AM

This is ridiculous, why is this discussion based on age, surely that's irrelevant. If these guys made people feel unwelcome I'm positive it wasn't intentional and as for being rude, I know for a fact this would have been only in a musical sense and not verbally. Just because someone doesn't offer you a chair that they're already sitting on doesn't make them a terrible person. I have been made to feel welcome by them irrelevant of whether I can play or not.

I can't remember who said it, but it's apparantly our (young peoples) duty to carry on the folk tradition and this is why we should play. NO. I play folk music because I like it, if this means the tradition carries on then thats great, but that is by no means why I play it.

And on another note, I have been in many sessions at festivals and been made to feel unwelcome by older people, the solution...go and find another session. It's not the end of the world.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 08:58 AM

I think a lot of the confusion, and bad feeling, on this thread is due to confusion over what the "session" was and what was expected from it. The OP was clearly expecting an open session. CAF's first response was to say that "We were actually booked there to sit and play in the bar all day". HD has said it was advertised as an open session, and no one was booked to lead it.

So what was it, an un-led open session for all-comers which became dominated by a large group who happened to be young, lively and talented? An informal performance by this group which others could join in with? An open session which this group were supposed to be leading?

Without knowing which it was, it is difficult to form a judgement on their behaviour. If it was the first, then their behaviour could be seen as a bit insensitive, if the second then they we just doing what they'd been asked to do. If the third, perhaps they could have done a better job and made sure everyone was included. Different roles, different responsibilities.

My final comment is that sessions should be a shared experience, not an opportunity to show off. Nevertheless, you can turn this to your advantage: if you play plenty of tunes which everyone can join in with, the others are less likely to mind when you slip in a show-off tune; if you only play show-off tunes, you'll come across as an arrogant b*****d.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 09:13 AM

omg... it never ends... nevermind...

It was an open session but in a lot of open sessions people are 'booked' (for want of a better word) to populate the session and to get it going. If the general consensus are playing some tunes then the open session is working. Having 1 person feel disgruntled because the consensus doesn't enjoy their style and he felt unwelcome does not mean that CAF has the responsibility to apologise or give the poor guy a hug cos he needs one.

If you go to a session and the consensus is playing too fast then stop playing along until they play something you can play along to because I am sure that if a tune is played really fast it wont last that long!

Please don't pass judgement on this further because it's hard to come to a conclusion when the facts cannot be conveyed fully. Most of the people here was not there (including myself) but I know the group that are being accused and I know they are very experienced at sessions. I am sure that this is all a misunderstanding and no offence was meant.

now can we just leave it at that or are we all going to keep running in circles until a) the organisers apologise b) the session players apologise?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Ewan Spawned a Monster
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 10:01 AM

"Now can we just leave it at that or are we all going to keep running in circles(?)"

We're going to keep running in circles of course! This is the UK wing of Mudcat, stiff with embittered curmudgeons with axes to grind and rules to impose.

Young people enjoying playing folk music for the sheer hell of it? SEE ME NOW, you disgusting little upstarts! It's six of the best for you and off to bed with no fookin' supper!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 10:01 AM

Now let me give you some advice: don't drink that Magners stuff, you want Kenny Cramp's Double Vision, I remember his 60th birthday party you know...


Err - what was I saying?


Oh yes, I've seen plenty of young whippersnappers drink it too, proper drunk up they woz...


PS, Ruth, the crack about (no pun intended) post menopausal knickers really was unnecessary...

PS, Lizzie if it is you, calm down.

Last PS young adults, the OP clearly really was upset and felt really bad, and while I see a lot of people saying "Don't offend brilliant and important young players" I don't see many of the apparently younger posters wishing to avoid dissing the old guy, or clearly expressing such wish.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Polite Guest
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 10:23 AM

I am calm, Richard. Fed up, hacked off with it all? Yes, but..calm.
Thank you. x

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 10:29 AM

There's another thread entitled "I wish I believed in hell again". I was wondering if a clone could join the two threads and

1) save space
2) help that thread starter to believe

Thank you.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 10:42 AM

"PS, Ruth, the crack about (no pun intended) post menopausal knickers really was unnecessary..."

*shrugs*

mea culpa.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 10:48 AM

""Now can we just leave it at that or are we all going to keep running in circles(?)"

We're going to keep running in circles of course! This is the UK wing of Mudcat, stiff with embittered curmudgeons with axes to grind and rules to impose.

Young people enjoying playing folk music for the sheer hell of it? SEE ME NOW, you disgusting little upstarts! It's six of the best for you and off to bed with no fookin' supper!"

V Funny lol

Last PS young adults, the OP clearly really was upset and felt really bad, and while I see a lot of people saying "Don't offend brilliant and important young players" I don't see many of the apparently younger posters wishing to avoid dissing the old guy, or clearly expressing such wish.

I never said don't offend the 'young players' in fact do it... (if you can that is!!!) it will make them stronger ;) lol

No-one needs to diss the old guy... there's no point... the remaining lack of time in his mortal body is punishment enough :o sorry that was really low but hey DILLIGAF ;)

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 11:02 AM

If anyone thinks discrimination based on age is any better than that based on sex or colour, then, IMO, you have your head up your arse.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 11:09 AM

Any discrimination is absolutely bollocks...

you have a great opinion Peace ;D

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 11:10 AM

I'm just amazed that all the venom seems to be based on age. I've been to sessions where there were predominatly older players who made it obvious that it was very much a closed shop, even when advertised as an "open session". It's not an age thing.

Also, if (as has been suggested/stated) these young upstarts are from folkie families that would suggest that they have probably been around sessions for as long as they've been weaned (if not before)and have probably been involved in sessions even longer (or more intensely) than some of the older people who weren't born into it.

The whole thing is obviously based on a misunderstanding. If it was all so bad then how come only one person has complained, why not hordes more? What isn't a misunderstanding is the venom which has been exhibited apparently based on 3rd hand info, chinese whispers and pent up grievances.

I note our (former) colonial cousins highlighting this as a very British thing. Not, I fear, a good advert for the British folk scene.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Banjiman
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 11:10 AM

"No-one needs to diss the old guy... there's no point... the remaining lack of time in his mortal body is punishment enough :o sorry that was really low but hey DILLIGAF ;)"

You're not really very nice are you?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 11:13 AM

What Jeri said!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Gedpipes
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 11:17 AM

I'll tell you what.
why don't you all come to Beverley this weekend and I'l give yeas all a hug - well maybe all
Blue skies
Ged

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Bert
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 11:38 AM

...Get over your pompous idea of what the protocols in the folk world should be...

The protocols are very simple and have been very clearly defined for generations.

Here they are again for those of you who haven't got it yet.

1. If you are up on stage with the mic then you get to sing or play for your allotted time.

2. If everyone is sitting down together then it is a session, eveyone gets a turn, and the shy ones get encouraged to perform.
If you jump in and take somebody else's turn then you have the morals of a petty thief and if you are remembered it will be only to avoid you next time.

3. If everyone is standing up then it is a jam and everyone joins in together.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: wiggy
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 11:42 AM

Hey it happens all over the world.
If you cant join in on one session go to a different room in the same pub there's going to be somthing different going on there.

it happened in Middlewich last week and so we started in a different room where evryone got a go.

Don't be put off get stuck in.

I was part of a small group of friends asked to lead a session, the front bar was full so we ran one in the restaraunt. Just a little more organized.
Have fun.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Maryrrf
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 11:54 AM

Everybody who has read this thread has certainly gotten a nasty dose of Mudcat rudeness. Don't know why I bothered, it's been depressing.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 12:13 PM

"You're not really very nice are you?"

It was a very harsh statement, I admit. I've had enough of all these people getting all upset for no real good reason accept that their idea of what folk should or shouldn't be.

Folk is for all people, it is music that can be played by anyone on any instrument that they want to try and play. We are all individuals that have tried to keep a tradition alive, one that was obliterated by TV, amplified music storage devices etc. just over 100 years ago the pubs would thrive on people entertaining themselves in their untrained musical talents.

A session is an individual thing and generations and regions alter it slightly as it goes along... to add 'protocols' to it or 'rules' stops it from being folk! like the oxymoron of folk degrees... it's all silly.

The one thing that I thought separated us from the moronic pop movement is that we all love the music and care about each other. It's obvious that this thread has attracted those that want to shape folk to their ideals and unfortunately that removes it from being folk any longer!!!

I am sorry for any harsh comments but I am getting fed up with people attacking other people because their opinion doesn't match theirs. We are all entitled to our opinion and I am sorry if some people dont think I'm very nice but I still love and care about you all because you are who you are and that is beautiful.

If we were all the same then life would have no forums to banter on and this one can have the potential of being great if people only said... hey, I may be wrong but... or , in my opinion I think...

instead we have a load of people going, this is how it is and how it should be and others should learn that!!! just get over yourselves... your ego belongs at Sony BMG or another axe yielding company that doesn't care about what people want!

Sorry for the rant but come on guys... we all love each other don't we?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 12:20 PM

Well I tell you something - now this is in depth analysis from s floor singer of many years standing ((theres never quite enough room for me a seat).

There comes a magic moment somewhere between the second and third verse (the first verse - natural politenes gets in the way, the second verse - you may notice a slight rictus of displeasure float across the features of several men in fisherman's smocks) HOWEVER!

The start of the third verse is generally when you finally realise you are about as welcome as a fart in a space suit - any other place on the earth's surface would be more hospitable, and you should have a strategic withdrawal planned.

A line that sometimes works for me is - 'Parts of the next line contain adult material....... and as we are before the watershed, I must abandon you to your more simple minded pleasures. Keep it folk! That's what i say! Good night...... and f--k off!'

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Jess A
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 12:26 PM

I was thinking the same, Maryrrf. Shame that evrybody can't be just a tad more friendly and polite.

Interesting point from Bert though cos I've played in UK sessions for a long time and I'm not really familiar with his definitions - where I tend to go, most people sit down and I've never heard of anything referred to as a 'jam'. To me, sessions are when everybody joins in together. Singarounds are where you all take turns. If there's a PA involved then I guess it's an open mic although I've never actually partaken in one of them. Etiquette in what I think of as sessions is a delicately balanced thing - yes I think it's usually seen as good form to encourage shyer or less confident people to join in, but plenty of people who are musically confident are socially less so and it can be harder than it looks to break the ice with somebody you don't know. Lots of sessions I go to whether at festivals or pubs do not have a leader at all, but then again some do. Some leaders take that to mean inviting people to play and establishing some sort of order and maybe even taking turns. Some leaders will just sit back and let it all happen but will strike up a tune every time the whole thing falters to silence, just to keep some momentum going.

My take on the whole thing - there's a lot of geographical and personal variation in what makes a session, and all you can really do as a newcomer to any of them is sit back a while and try to get a feel for how this particular one is working - and if you don't like the feel of it, to quietly wander off and start one that's more to your taste elsewhere.

To all those who've stated that this thread has put you off the idea of UK sessions - please don't think that they're all full of upset and antagonism! In my experience that's pretty rare! And if any of you are ever passing through Sheffield, PM me and I'll try and direct you towards one that might suit your tastes, as we're lucky here to have a whole range so there's bound to be something for pretty much everybody...

all the best
Jess

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Bert
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 12:35 PM

...yes I think it's usually seen as good form to encourage shyer or less confident people to join in, but plenty of people who are musically confident are socially less so...

Very well put Jess.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 12:38 PM

It's like hearing your parents fighting all the time in the next room, wondering if they're hitting each other yet. Then they come out and explain that they weren't really fighting, they really love each other and were mostly kidding around. It makes you just want to leave and go to a place where people can be kind to one another without having crockery sail past their heads.

I know-- we don't have to read the thread. But if you host sessions you might think that they could actually be some info in here, among all the shite to wade through-- and it turns out that there is. But I would never link a friend to it, for the info, because this thread is not a resource: it's a nasty set of text messages now preserved for all time.

~Susan

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 12:38 PM

PS Don't try using that line if they've booked you as the guest. it doesn't work in those circumstances.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Jess A
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 12:47 PM

not sure if that was addressed to what I'd said, WLD? I agree, if you are specifically booked, as a guest, to lead a session then feeling shy is no excuse for not trying to make others feel included.

Not sure the same sense of responsibility is attached if you've been booked, as a guest, to go and swell numbers in a session (led by somebody else). I admit if I was booked myself under those circumstances I'd still feel like I ought to be being responsible about it but then again I have a tendency to behave like a mother hen under lots of other circumstances too and that can bring its own problems :)

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 12:51 PM

"The protocols are very simple and have been very clearly defined for generations."

No they havent Bert. There maybe folk club or session etiquette but that is subjective and governed by those that either establish it or in a lot of cases whatever the general consensus pushes for. They all vary from region to region or if you want to go into real folk terms from culture to culture!

Those protocols are your ideals and you are closing a session off to those that may in your mind oppose it!

Some sessions that my dad ran would go around the room in a set direction and he would continue to ask each time those who don't feel confident to sing. Other sessions you have to put your name down on the door, others would just perform and there would be no-one in charge and people would just jump in whenever there was a chance... some sessions feel informal and some feel like you cant even breath incase the noise put someones nose out of joint!!!

Folk is the most diverse genre and includes cultures all over the planet and yet you seem to believe that you can impose protocols!!! that's like saying that Microsoft can make the only computer OS :s

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:10 PM

Tune sessions do tend to be 'caveat emptor,' but if you've been booked (paid or unpaid) rather than going as a punter, you're wearing a different hat. The organiser is counting on you to try to make as many people as happy as you can, because he wants them to come back next year. This doesn't mean giving everyone a go - in fact that's very rare in tune sessions - but it does mean smiling a bit and explaining what's happening and why.

Most tune people are very friendly. Concentrating hard on playing can result in some stern faces - but then this isn't a performance, so. High skill sessions are also not as common as you might think, so there's an understandable tendency to seize the moment when it does all fire off nicely. That said, the leaders can still include people with a bit of chat and a few well-known slow ones, and I personally feel I should when I've been placed in that role.

I've been more influenced by comments from the band here than by reports of what may or may not have happened (though given the early posts I can understand why they felt under the cosh).

In the end it's really down to the festival organiser to manage the expectation/experience equation well if they want to build up that side of things.

Tom

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:15 PM

Err here we go again with the word problems.

'Session' mostly means tunes not songs, Houston. If only it always did!

If the event doesn't have 'sing' or 'song' in the title most would assume that most people who've come are not there for singing or songs (not then, anyway), and proceed accordingly.

Tom

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Def Shepard
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:16 PM

Bert said," Get over your pompous idea of what the protocols in the folk world should be..."

It sounds to me like your 'protocols' are somewhay pompous as well. You know the saying about people who live in glass houses I'm sure

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Squeezy Sessionizer
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:19 PM

Bert, who gave you the keys to the rule book? The session I grew up with allows anyone to play anytime they like, if there's a gap (with attention being paid to any player who looks like they'd quite like to lead a tune, of course)... a "jam" doesn't exist in the folk world - that's something that jazz (*pheugh*) and blues players indulge in.

Making everyone have a turn puts players under pressure - I have seen people get quite flummoxed when the session "leader" suddenly points their finger at someone and expects them to churn out a tune on demand. Sessions are organic and should be allowed to evolve, and at the risk of repeating what the more sensible people on here are saying, if the music belongs to a tradition you don't relate to, or the playing style is 1) foreign to you or 2) too difficult for you to play, then how hard is it to wander off to the next session, or indeed start a new one??

Anyway, I've been irritated by this band of upstarts for years and years. It's because I don't stand a hope of keeping up with them for quite a lot of the time. But by playing with musicians like these highly talented individuals (who incidentally only really see each other at a select number of festivals over the course of a season) my own playing has been pushed really hard and allowed me to take the sort of massive strides I'd have had to pay a lot of money for otherwise.

Breakneck Horizonto anyone? Or maybe the classic Sir Sidney Smith's Race? *choke* sorry, I was forgetting. That might just be FUN!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:21 PM

response to:
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss - PM
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:10 PM

I agree Tom, but I know these guys and they will captivate and cheer up an audience. I saw these guys play at Chippenham alongside some very experienced session players that I've known since my head came up to the knee of a grasshopper and they were very welcomed in the session and everyone had fun. It seems that only one person here has complained and loads jumped on the bandwagon.

I just hope that Charley's experience hasn't put people off going to the Big Session festival next year cos I would love to go if CAS are gonna be there :D you really have to see these guys in action, they are quality personified :)

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:26 PM

response to;
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss - PM
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:15 PM

Yeah, am sorry Tom, just using it as an example as I was brought up in mixed song and instrument sessions as well as strictly instruments or strictly no instruments.

They all use similar formats

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:26 PM

"you really have to see these guys in action"

I probably have, Houston. I probably have!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:28 PM

response to;
From: Def Shepard - PM
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:16 PM

Bert said," Get over your pompous idea of what the protocols in the folk world should be..."

I admit that I actually said that and he was quoting me DS... sorry

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:28 PM

Are we there yet?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Def Shepard
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:29 PM

Sam reply still applies

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:36 PM

Yeah probably Tom lol :D

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:43 PM

if there's a gap

... and you feel up for starting a tune off, get in quick (and then for me, hope others take up the tune)! At least that's often how it is in ones I go to.

---
As for being asked, the one thing I don't want is to wind up with is a solo. I can't handle it and really I am a sort of second row player.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Squeezy Sessionizer
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:47 PM

Hang on a sec folks...

I think it's my round. What are you all having?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:50 PM

Well, if that includes me, a coffee would be great.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:52 PM

Pint of Summer Lightning please. (at least that's what I have been drinking lately in one session I go to)

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,FolkisCool
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:53 PM

Bottle of Cider on ice for me please.

...and a bucket of water for all those who object to those younger musicians who may have played faster than they appreciated in the past.

also a lambrini for the tuba player because he knows he's a chav!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:56 PM

gin and elderflower, barman.

The thing that is bloody hilarious about this thread is how many other mudcat discussions are devoted to the white-knuckled fear of the tradition dying out - why? Because there aren't enough young people in folk.

So along come a bunch of great young musicians - who only turn up after seeing themselves maligned by people they've never even met - and proceed to be arrogant and daft and take the piss and behave like - guess what? - young people.

Much outrage and pounding of keyboards and sucking of gums ensues: "How dare they be rude and have a laugh and not take us seriously? We are older than them! We know better! We deserve respect!"

And you wonder why you never see anyone under 50 at your clubs...

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Phil J
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:58 PM

A tankard of perhalderide for me. This thing is off it's head

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:59 PM

The speed some older players went at is too much for me... Sean McGuire

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Squeezy Sessionizer
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:59 PM

Yeah he is.

I used to get annoyed at older players playing too quickly when I was learning - so I learned to catch up... it was tiring but was (and very much remains) a lot of fun.

I know this has been said but the guys would have been mortified to think they'd offended or excluded anyone - but they do get a little over-excited at times. Next time go talk to them - they don't usually bite too hard.

SSxx

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Squeezy Sessionizer
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:02 PM

^^ @ FolkIsCool re tuba player ;o)

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:08 PM

And you wonder why you never see anyone under 50 at your clubs...
hmm I'm 47 and at one of the sessions I go to I'd say I'm one of the older ones.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:10 PM

I just took a rhubarb crumble out of the oven. Anyone want some?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:11 PM

I still want to kow if that tuba player was the one who plyaed Jingle Bells all night at Towersey.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Def Shepard
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:12 PM

Ruth Archer, quite rightly, says, " The thing that is bloody hilarious about this thread is how many other mudcat discussions are devoted to the white-knuckled fear of the tradition dying out - why?

Fear, cold, deep down fear. Letting go, passing the flame. To be honest with you it's all abit embarrassing, I mean I'm now the same age as Sandy Denny would have been had she lived (you do the maths)and some my fellow musicians of a certain age are totally and completely paranoid that the music will die without them.

To be honest again, I've met and played with some of the younger musicians whom I am totally in awe of and have learned some great bowing and fingering technique from (fiddle and mandolin) Heck, I might, in my early old age take up the melodeon (still thinking about that one). :-D

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,"cool as folk" brigade
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:14 PM

If you enjoyed the jingle bells it was. If you didn't it was the tuba player from gog magog molly

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:15 PM

"Heck, I might, in my early old age take up the melodeon (still thinking about that one). :-D "

Go for it! I bought mine when I turned 40 last year, and have given myself a decade to learn properly.

Judging from my progress and commitment so far, there's going to be a LOT of cramming when I turn 49! LOL!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:16 PM

I cannot tell a lie. It was him wot done it!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:20 PM

Might I suggest that all of those who seem to be hungering for Tee Shirts purchase Mudcat Tees, if only to support the soapbox you all seem to be shouting from. They're $15

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Def Shepard
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:21 PM

Ruth Archer said, " and have given myself a decade to learn properly"

A decade eh, now let me see, that would make me *counts on fingers* Well that wouldn't be too bad... ;-)

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Def Shepard
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:23 PM

the soapbox is probably worth more, I'll keep that instead.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,'cool as folk' brigade
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:32 PM

prehaps mudcat cold sponser cool as folk t-shirts? since young people are poor? sponsership money can be paid in pints?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:34 PM

A thought struck me during my bangers and mash...

I assumed this "It was 'The big session' and yes, it was the only session" was from the OP (though now I look it doesn't actually say so). But if it was, then the many suggestions above that he should have just gone to look for another session don't really apply. In an ideal world, if you're 'running' the only session in town, then you'll have been warned that it will probably attract a mixed crowd, so you can proceed accordingly. But perhaps these guys were not warned. Another lesson for the organisers, perhaps, if this is where the problem lay. (Does anyone know them well enough to point them at this thread? If I was them, I'd want to know about it). Tom

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:35 PM

and some my fellow musicians of a certain age are totally and completely paranoid that the music will die without them.

Seems pretty healthy where I am. Last Sun night the Irish session I go to had a busy night. I believe there were 25 instruments playing at one point.

The youngest is someone just starting who I think is 16/17. The oldest, I'd guess (I don't go around taking notes of ages) around 60 but as I said above, I'd guess at 47 I'm older than most present. For skills that people here might recognise, we had two who are on the Newcastle degree. Then we had some who play in groups (blasted pro/semi pros!), . Then there were "ordinary mortals" like myself.

I don't see age being an issue, people in awe of one another or any of the stuff that tends to rattle round these Mudcat threads. I see a bunch of people all out for a good night of playing music together.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:37 PM

yes he was theSnail lol

GUEST,Squeezy Sessionizer

mines a pint of dragon stout :D

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:41 PM

What about the knickers?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,FolkisCool
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:45 PM

Who's knickers would you like? Perhaps they could be auctioned to the highest bidder to help finance the T-shirts.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:48 PM

maybe there should be cool as folk knickers as well.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Polite Guest
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:50 PM

Radio 2 Folk & Acoustic's 'Virtual Session'

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Def Shepard
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 02:51 PM

Ruth Archer said, " maybe there should be cool as folk knickers as well.


Ahh the power of merchandising, and it is said that cute sells :-D

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 03:15 PM

cool as folk hoodies ;) lol

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 03:29 PM

yes - for all the folk ASBOs!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 03:38 PM

you know that 80% of folk ASBOs are given to the over 60s lol ;)

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Def Shepard
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 03:39 PM

HD said, "you know that 80% of folk ASBOs are given to the over 60s"

oi you :-D

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 03:44 PM

lol ;) you don't have to be anti-social to be a folkie but it helps ;p hehehe

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Gene Burton
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 03:45 PM

Did somebody mention jam sessions earlier? Allow me to clarify. It's only a jam if there's enough seats for everybody. If it's standing room only, then it should more correctly be termed a compote. And there's another thing...no, sorry, it's gone. Have a good one...

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 03:49 PM

what if there's not enough seats?!? lol

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 03:51 PM

I got it... chutney?!? lol

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 03:59 PM

this thread has upset me so much that I'm going to attend each session with a badly tuned jaws harp and a shakey egg that goes out of time!!!

;p lol

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Gene Burton
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 03:59 PM

I think anything labelled as a compote should, legally, comprise a certain percentage of fruit (I think it's pretty high, maybe 70 or 75 %). I had some on a pancake once; it was a bit rich.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Gene Burton
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 04:02 PM

BTW, a shakey egg won't cook right. Believe me, I know... :)

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 04:06 PM

OK, but please do not bring an ocean drum.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 04:12 PM

BTW, a shakey egg won't cook right. Believe me, I know... :)

you must've read the wrong chapter in the Delia Smith book ;) lol

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Saggy
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 04:20 PM

Quote from Houston Diamond:
"I am sorry if some people dont think I'm very nice but I still love and care about you all because you are who you are and that is beautiful."


I think you are downright bloody horrible :-P........



........but I still love and care about you too Houston ;-P lol

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 04:22 PM

And speaking of . . . .

The chicken and the egg had sex. When they finished the chicken lit a cigarette and said, "Well, I guess we've answered THAT question."

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Polite Guest
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 04:28 PM

Now *that's* funny!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 04:32 PM

Yeah but the sad thing is... the chicken faked it ;) lol

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 04:33 PM

From: GUEST,Saggy - PM
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 04:20 PM

is this my sister?

if it is... no wonder you think I'm horrible... it's a family trait ;p lol

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 04:36 PM

The chicken and the egg had sex.

Is that not paedophilia going too far?!? totally wrong and really quite sick :s

:o

;p

lol

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 04:41 PM

There are some STRANGE people on this fourum/form/furom site!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 04:48 PM

You don't have to be mad to come into this forum but it's the fault of the government!!! they shut all the institutions down except marriage and I don't wanna go there ;) lol

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,The Ghost of Jim Morrison
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 04:50 PM

....There are some STRANGE people on this fourum/form/furom site!

When you're strange
Faces come out of the rain
When you're strange
No one remembers your name
When you're strange
When you're strange
When you're strange
Alright yeah
When you're strange
Faces come out of the rain
When you're strange
No one remembers your name
When you're strange
When you're strange
When you're strange

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 04:54 PM

that starts...

People are strange when your a stranger
faces look ugly when your alone

doesn't it?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 04:55 PM

Women seem wicked ...

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 05:00 PM

lol :D

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 05:08 PM

Gene, who are you calling a fruit? No homophobia please.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Def Shepard
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 05:10 PM

hums along with Mr. Morrison

When you're strange
When you're strange
When you're strange

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Saggy
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 05:15 PM

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 04:33 PM

From: GUEST,Saggy - PM
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 04:20 PM

is this my sister?

if it is... no wonder you think I'm horrible... it's a family trait ;p lol"


SSShhhhh don't tell people we're related ffs!!!!! LOL :P

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 05:22 PM

well, the behavior described in this thread is an example of young, cliquish, self-absorbed musicians who may have learned their licks but haven't learned how to 'share' with other musicians yet! There is a difference between a 'performance' and a 'session'.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 05:22 PM

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 05:33 PM

Fawk. One more time: ARE WE THERE YET?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Melissa
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 05:39 PM

Peace:
Maybe they're waiting for somebody to admire the cleverness of creating a thread that mirrors the situation Charley came here to air out about?

Poor guy..getting the same miserable thing twice.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Gulliver
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 05:43 PM

Everybody who has read this thread has certainly gotten a nasty dose of Mudcat rudeness. Don't know why I bothered, it's been depressing.

I agree with that, Mary. I'm glad there's very little liklihood of ending up in a session with some of the posters here.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Irene
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 05:47 PM

Folk Brats - probably all on benefits while they live the dream.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 05:48 PM

This is post 400 and it's time to say so long. Hope y'all keep well and stay well. Goodbye.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Bee
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 05:52 PM

I may feel guilty about this later, but I found this whole thread highly amusing.

Festivals in this bucolic paradise (damn, we're even a day's drive away from the sneered at hick-town of Toronto!) don't even have 'sessions' or 'singarounds', just open mics and a whole lot of field pickin'. You wander around the grounds after the stage shuts down and join in wherever it looks and sounds like a good idea. The stage bands are usually playing in front of their RVs and mostly welcome anybody to join in. Occasionally you get a group that is a little standoffish or a little exclusive, you just leave 'em to it and move on.

I've never seen youth or age come into it as a factor. Plenty of both, and lots of great musicians - some of 'em even do Nashville eh?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 05:52 PM

400.
a lot of people who go to sessions seem to forget about enjoying music,likewise a lot of people who contribute to discussions,the session .org is particlarly bad at the moment.
it must be a full moon.http://www.soundlantern.com/UpdatedSoundPage.do?ToId=3527&Path=PaulDavis.mp3http://www.soundlantern.com/UpdatedSoundPage.do?ToId=3527&Path=PaulDavis.mp3

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 05:54 PM

""Godd common sense, Don and good to hear from you again -see you at Sidmouth.""

Unfortunately I will not be at Sidmouth this year, Mate. Finances just won't permit.

Look out for a resurgence next year tho', like Arnold, I'LL BE BACK!!

Don T.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 05:54 PM

Paul Davis was someone whose love of music shone through in his playing,sock it to em in heaven Paul.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 05:55 PM

The essential point that is being ignored as people rush to "hear themselves talk" is this from the original post:

Aditionally, the festival advertised 'open sessions' and the blurb encouraged folk to bring their instruments and join in .

This isn't about age, this isn't about who is hip, this isn't about the folk police. This is about a session advertised to the general public, to bring their instruments. The artists that were hired either were given the wrong message, or they turned it into their own little "look how great we are" session and ignored players beneath them. They may have done this because they thought that was their role based on what the festival organizers told them. I believe Charley over reacted, but he is certainly entitled to his feelings.

And you lot sure know how to beat something to death. I was going to close this damn thread, but I realized that I would just be sic'ing Lizzie the wacko, and the rest of you on someone else. So knock yourselves out, but do us all a favor. Keep it here.....

Mick

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 05:56 PM

nice one Captain Birdseye :D

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 06:00 PM

"but I realized that I would just be sic'ing Lizzie the wacko"

That is beneath you. And if it isn't, it should be.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 06:02 PM

I regretted it right after I sent it, Peace. But I am tired of this thing. Time for me to leave it to all of the others. I am starting to shoot from the lip (or fingers, as it were).

Have fun, kids.

Mick

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 06:07 PM

I'll join you.

Why hasn't this travesty been closed?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 06:08 PM

Last: Sorry, Mick.

I'd still like to know why this thread ahsn't been closed.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 06:11 PM

Big Mick, the points you were made in this thread were really good... sorry it all got to you... and sorry to Charley cos you are right about the confusion of it all...

Thanks and take care Mick

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Def Shepard
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 06:18 PM

Well it was funny (for some of us) while it lasted, some very humourous remarks and quips are buried in there somwhere. I have nothing to apologise for, but i think it's time for this thread to go nighty night. As I've said somewhere before, there are some amazing you'uns out there from whom we could all learn, I also said I was in awe of some I've met and performed with, and I always will be.

Goodnight Mrs. Calabash.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Barry Finn
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 06:24 PM

Thge 1st thing a child learns when they go out into the world, be it the playground, pre-school, kindergarden, the school yard or he sand box is "TO PLAY WELL WITH OTHERS". It what's early child educators 1st focus on, what they 1st report to parents on & what they 1st teach.

How you learnt how to do this yet?

It doesn't amtter how well you "play with yourself" once you enter the sand box, it only matters "how well you play with others" then are we having fun yet. Not am I having fun but are we having fun.

Those who support a bunch of players that go around to festivals during the high season & pull off this exclusiveness are supporting "Bulling Behaviour". If you're playing excludes any other kid from playing along in the sand box YOU ARE A BULLY, plain & simple
Learn to play with the other kids!

My son was playing upstairs wih his buddies last night when I was reading part of this post, I thought I'm not proud of how well he plays (he's 18) but I am very proud of how well he plays with others. IT'S A LIFE SKILL, you need to know it in order to be excepted in the workplace, in the church, the shoolyard, at a party, at any function, with your family & in-laws.

You waon't to play in a way that excludes others, espicaly when there's no other sand box forthe other kids to play in, GO HOME & play somewhere private. When it "open" & "public" the sand box belongs to everyone to play in.

How Rude, if I ever cross the pond the "Big Session" will be one I won't be attending unless the players grow up.

Barry

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 06:25 PM

"nuff said". On the request of several of the responders, this thread is now closed.