Closing Threads

Subject: Closing Threads
From: Barry Finn
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 03:11 AM

I was the last person to post to the Session Rudness thread before it was closed down.
I am more than a little bit upset with the censor(s)/elf(s) that closed it down because a few responders asked, what happens now if a lot of responders ask top reopen it, do we play the game hat way too? If the thread author asked I wouldn't mind it near as much, was it the author? The thread did turn nasty in some spots, why not just delete or restrict the nasty poster? There were 414 posts before an elf/clone shut it down. That means that a few get to call the shots on closing a thread, while how many others thought that there was plenty to say & add to it. 414 posts in a few days means that it was a hot topic that touched off quite a firestorm. Does that mean every time a hot topic comes up & a few people don't like it, it gets shut down. If you don't like the way thread's going don't post or don't read it, let it die a natural death. If it gets nasty, as it did in a few spots, mostly by only 1 poster who was directing their foulness towards an undeserving poster, shut down the poster or delete their posts. Don't shut down the whole discussion.
As I said in the thread;

Enjoyable-No
Entertaining-No
Interesting-Yes
Educational-Very

I odn't get to go across the pond & I got to see what some folks from over there think of how sessions should be run, how they see the rules of etiquette, the responsibilities of running a session. I never heard of singing up for a session until now, that's a new one to me, interesting. It's was interesting to see how the exchange of adult & youth players interact differently when the level of musicship is upped in comparsion to how it works out over here. Reopen the thread, it was at the very least broadening.

I would like to see the thread reopened & have the nastyness deleted, I believe that closing that thread was a knee jerk reaction. If there's no more to say on the subject, again let it drop off the sceen.

Does one elf/clone get to close a thread down or does a discussion take place among a number of elfs/clone before a clousure happens. I have to say that if Max wants to do it he can do whatever he likes but I think outside of him Dick & Susan would be the only others with that kind of control & in the more than 10 yrs I've been here I've never seen Dick or Susan close anything. So what gives with the scope on the Elf Power?
Inquiring minds (me) want's to know!

Ok, that's one person heard from.

If Joe has a problem with my request he can PM me, otherwise I don't want to hear from any others unless it's in this thread, please.

Barry

Subject: RE: Closing Threads
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 03:39 AM

I agree, surely if people don't like the content of a thread they can simply choose to avoid reading it.

Subject: RE: Closing Threads
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 03:54 AM

Yes, Barry - I'm with you.

I'd vote for a system which aimed to keep threads open by hiding offensive posts, and I'd like to see more yellow cards and maybe a time-out for anyone who's being deliberately or persistently disruptive.

There was an important discussion within all the nonsense. I wasn't so bothered about the age/experience aspect myself, but the thread was throwing a useful light on one of the touchiest issues in folk promotion, which seems to cause more upset than almost anything else (400+ posts for example): How to do sessions to keep the maximum number of people happy.

The careful use of language to avoid potential misunderstandings, briefing session leaders so they know what you've advertised, checking that punters are (mostly) getting what they expected, having effective customer feedback and wash-up systems - these were all underlying the debate, and should have been of real value to any organisers looking in.

And it's always good to have a chance to discuss yet again what these poorly defined folky words mean - in the hope that we are groping towards a consensus which might eventually reduce these problems caused by inconsistent labelling.

Tom

Subject: RE: Closing Threads
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 04:14 AM

I think I'd say that everything useful that was going to be said on that thread had been said, and even most of the nastiness seemed to have subsided. Big Mick promptly and handsomely apologised for his un-needed dig at Lizzie (although it was peanuts to some of the other catty remarks). There were earlier times when closing the thread could have been see as necessary intervention, but by the time it happened I don't think it was necessary - although it did no harm.

Subject: RE: Closing Threads
From: Banjiman
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 04:15 AM

It seemed to me that the worst of the thread in question was much earlier.........it had calmed down to friendly knockabout and peace (not Peace!) was about to break out.

The last unappetizing post was from the guy who shut it down?

Seems a pity to have gone through the pain of the storming phase without then reaping the benefits to English folk across the generations.

Paul

Subject: RE: Closing Threads
From: GUEST,Charley O'Neill
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 04:26 AM

I am the fool who started this fiasco! I did not ask for the thread to be closed and the issue of censorship is a different kettle of fish altogether, but come on , it did get well and truly out of hand. . Would just like to make the following points that many seem to have been missed by many-

1, I am 36 yrs of age. I do not particularly consider myself an OP (old person?) and by the standards of the folk scene, I don't think I'd be generally classed as such

2, For the last time...IT WAS THE ONLY SESSION!!!, there was a lack of other participative players around, starting another session was not an option

3, I had nothing against CAF's style of music, tempo, or indeed age, it was their bad manners, rudeness and unfriendliness that I was speaking about

4, I am not a beginner, but when did years of experience mirror confidence and mindset on a particular day

4, Ultimately, nobody else on here seems to have seen what happened. You can be as sycophantic and clever as you like, but ultimately , I feel that CAF know exactly what they did and the incident that I am referring to. If they do not...well maybe a bit of reflection may be in order


'Oh, but they're only young,
why shouldn't they play fast?
Why are you ageist, they are our future!! and other such paraphrasing , point missing bollocks indeed!

Subject: RE: Closing Threads
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 04:38 AM

I thought the age issues were quite important, actually. As I pointed out within the thread, the topic of young people in folk is one that comes up constantly. How do we attract them? How do we keep them? The irony, of course, is that when they ARE around in numbers, they get berated for behaving like young people. This is a regular feature of the threads on festivals like Sidmouth and Towersey (especially the campsites) every year: "How dare those inconsiderate young upstarts stay up late being noisy in the area which is designated for staying up late and being noisy? From midnight, they should be tucked up in their beds, with a hot water bottle, like me, to be ready for a 9am ranting workshop."

Lots of folkies don't actually seem to like young people. Maybe they've simply forgotten what it's like to be young, and impetuous, and maybe a little full of yourself. What they REALLY would like to see, it seems, is old people in young people's skins. There are a few of those around in folk, actually, but I wouldn't really want to spend much time with any of them.

When we look at the reasons why young people have apparently deserted folk clubs, I think a lot of your answers really are here.

Before anyone has a go at me for defending bad behaviour, I would remind everyone that very few people who contributed to that thread were actually AT Big Session this year. Some people, who were, commented on how much they'd enjoyed the music, and had found no trouble joining in. I will reiterate that I have seen these guys at many festival sessions, and I can't remember anyone ever having this complaint before. At Towersey last year, for instance, they spent the entire festival in and around the beer tent, playing. Lots of people joined in. The festival PR even used a photo of one of them (the pretty one ;) ) on the front of their festival leaflets. So if they are a bunch of rude, arrogant upstarts, how come no one has noticed till now - except for one guy who got his nose put out of joint?

It was the response to that one complaint that was so interesting, though. Quick as a flash, down comes the mighty wrath of Mudcat. "I wasn't there, I don't have all the facts, but that won't stop me from having an opinion and expressing it." These guys were harrassed and abused by people who have never met them. They were told what they OUGHT to have been doing, and how they OUGHT to behave, by people who not only weren't there to witness their behaviour, but who didn't even know what they'd been asked to to in the first place! One person even accused them of bringing the festival into disrepute, FFS, and actually then posted to say THEY'D TOLD THE OYSTER BAND ON THEM!!! Christ, Folk police or what? This despite the fact that the person who dashed off a fevered e-mail the Oysterband wasn't even at Big Session themselves!

I'm not saying that bad behaviour should not be addressed. But there were a hell of a lot of assumptions being made on that thread. I realise that this is partly to do with the flippant nature of the responses from the "culprits" themselves, but I actually found that quite funny. Why should they be chastened and apologetic when they may well have nothing to apologise for?

Subject: RE: Closing Threads
From: Rasener
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 04:51 AM

I feel that Charley should have put his complaints to the management, not on Mudcat. Maybe you did Charley. If, having done that and not got any satisfaction, then by all means go public.
Likewise I think it would have been better if the organisers had responded with the issue raised by Charley on the thread, not the performers.

I would like to think that people would talk to me first about anything they are unhappy about with Faldingworth Live, rather than start spouting off on Mudcat.

Just a thought.

Subject: RE: Closing Threads
From: peregrina
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 04:52 AM

General discussion of session etiquette seems useful and productive, but I can't see how a forum like this is ever appropriate place for one individual to make allegations of how some specific people treated a specific person on one occasion. That's ad hominem. It was always bound to result in finger-pointing, name-calling and arguments about what really happened-- a trial by mob not present.

Subject: RE: Closing Threads
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 05:19 AM

I kinda see the point of this thread but I agree that the subject was exhausted.

It's just one of those things... it's not restricted to Charley or CAF and co... We all have at some point in our life at a session made to feel we are not welcome if we were being honest.

I'm assuming Charley, you may have been caught in a badly timed moment where people in the session where in a silly mood and you were in a defensive mood and things got out of hand... I know these guys pretty well and I am sure that if you decide to join in with them again that things will be different.

I am only a year younger than you and very basic on a guitar and very unconfident at singing and these guys really make me feel welcome. I have seen them play with friends (who are almost twice my age) of mine that I know they don't know and I haven't introduced them.

I really can't explain why you had a bad experience with them.

But back to your initial point... I empathise with you... it is really irritating to turn up to an advertised event to have something completely different happening... All I can suggest is to get in touch with the organisers and let them know and hopefully they will apologise and be more careful next year.

Subject: RE: Closing Threads
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 05:28 AM

There IS one thing Mudcat could do without any major change of policy - and that is to have moderators identified in some way. It's no accident that the police wear uniforms to remind everyone that they do have powers, and that their 'suggestions' do carry extra weight. I've been in and out of here for a few years now and the only Mudcat officials I'm aware of are Joe Offer and (now) Big Mick. If there was an asterisk or something to identify those who had power to close threads, then any tactful remarks they might make might be noted by everyone else. There are probably good reasons why this is not done, but I'd be interested to hear them. Perhaps identification might give their normal posts an unwanted edge - in which case maybe it might be possible for them to have two sign-ins, - one for normal chat and one for official activity. Tom

Subject: RE: Closing Threads
From: Banjiman
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 05:32 AM

Houston Diamond.......maybe you can be quite nice after all!!!!

Nice one, if you're ever in Yorkshire come and visit us at
KFFC , despite Ruth's assertions (and I do I agree with quite a lot of other things she says) that only over 50's go to Folk Clubs.... you'll find a warm welcome. We have from 8 to 80 year olds (I'm somewhere in the middle, but well under 50) playing all sorts of acoustic music and song.

Paul

Subject: RE: Closing Threads
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 05:36 AM

"despite Ruth's assertions (and I do I agree with quite a lot of other things she says) that only over 50's go to Folk Clubs.... "

Hi Banjiman,

I realise I was making a generalisation - good on you for the range of ages you attract! But as I'm sure you'll remember from the many folk club threads which have appeared in recent times, your club would seem to be the exception rather than the rule.

Subject: RE: Closing Threads
From: Melissa
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 05:37 AM

Charley:
An OP is 'original poster' (or opening post..or something like that)

Subject: RE: Closing Threads
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 05:39 AM

well... I must admit that for how quick it moved as a thread it would have been more appropriate in the mudchat section of the site... oh well.

Yeah, moderators should be identifiable and accountable, I agree. If there is no real harm in keeping a thread open then leave it till it peters out, but hey, what do I know except 20 years of IRC and other online forum experience ;)

In this forum it would be difficult to stop people considering people generally do not have to be registered to add their point eg. GUEST, somebody! but there should be no problem deleting inappropriate posts especially abusive ones.

Subject: RE: Closing Threads
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 05:42 AM

It actually got a lot *less* nasty once it got down to specific individuals. The "cool as folk" guys were able to defend themselves in an entertaining way. Whereas generalized complaints about an unnamed Them never lead to anything productive. (And to follow my own advice, I have in mind Al Whittle's gripes about people who perform or present traditional material).

There was an underlying positive aspect to the whole thread. Traditional repertoire is not in any danger of falling into ablivion when people are prepared to brawl over access to a prime spot for playing it. If we end up calling each other grumpy old cunts or bigheaded wee nyaffs (I'm a grumpy old cunt, myself) it's because we're part of the same community and that's how communities work.

Memo to the organizers: it's an idea to set things up so that sessions can form in more than one place. Rivalries are not necessarily the reason, sometimes there are groups who just like doing different stuff, or one session gets too big. I've only been to Leicester once and got the impression you needed to show your Union Jack underpants and BNP membership card to get into a a pub there, but surely some fringe spaces could have been allocated.

Subject: RE: Closing Threads
From: Banjiman
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 05:45 AM

Ruth,

We get round quite a few Folk Clubs, and though I wish I could argue with your generalisation, I can't......but just admitting that doesn't help attract younger people does it? All I can say for sure is that our doors are open to all and the mix of ages is pretty good and actually more under 40's are now coming along.

Cheers

Paul

Subject: RE: Closing Threads
From: GUEST,Betsy at work
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 05:45 AM

Hiya Villain, I'm afraid the "complaints to the management" wouldn't work for me. I couldn't be bothered with the ensuing discussions arguments and opinions.
Immediately let me say - I'm sure it would work for you,
You sound convinced your diplomatic method WOULD work and I admire you for that.
For my part, I'm much the same way with a poor standard meal in a cafe /restaurant ....I can't be bothered complaining , along with the ensuing opinions etc. ,it's all a drain on my energy and emotional resources.
I put the occasion down to a shit experience - I pay for the meal and never go back , and will never give a good recommendation.
Before you start typing - I know my method is the lily-livered way out, and probably doesn't serve my fellow men very well, because the establishment will keep serving the same shite to others, because no one has complained, but, it works for me, as I like to avoid such confrontation, primarily because I have a completely (undesirable) ability to escalate such situations in a very short space of time.
I need to leave such situations to you diplomats!!!
Not to say I wouldn't consider I wouldn't go back to the establishment if I heard favourable reports from people I trust, that the establishment had changed it's ways, an undergone a re-organisation, which, might more suit my taste.
However I realise the world isn't going to change for Charley, or me, but things might change if Organisers take notice of reasonable complaints from people like yourself.
I feel myself going round in circles here ...

Cheers Betsy

Subject: RE: Closing Threads
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 05:53 AM

"Memo to the organizers: it's an idea to set things up so that sessions can form in more than one place."

the thing is, because of the type of festival, the lineup, the lack of workshops and participative activity etc, my instinct (I wasn't there this year but have been in previous years) is that there aren't really enough musicians turning up to populate multiple sessions. Otherwise they wouldn't have had to pay these guys to come in and play! :)

My suggestion to Charley from right back at the beginning of the previous thread still stands: why not bring a bunch of mates next time and start your own session?

"I've only been to Leicester once and got the impression you needed to show your Union Jack underpants and BNP membership card to get into a a pub there, but surely some fringe spaces could have been allocated."

Crikey, which bit did you visit?! There are definitely a few pubs on the London Road, 5 minutes from De Montfort Hall, which would lend themselves to being fringe venues, but again, it just doesn't feel like that sort of festival. It is more self-contained. Maybe a session marquee over on the campsite could work...as long as everyone vacated by midnight, of course! ;)

Subject: RE: Closing Threads
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 05:59 AM

I must admit I was shocked at some harsh comments by people. I am from folk child stock where I can't remember the first time I went to a folk club, festival, session, ceilidh etc because I was still in nappies.

The one thing I notice from the type of person who enjoys folk and embraces it into their life is how super friendly they are and how everyone is their friend.

I love all music, from classical to heavy rock and folk is mostly my biggest heart warming music genre because of all the nice images it conjures...

It is a very English or British trait to not wanting to complain but I am sure that any festival organiser is welcoming to them because they want a festival to work for the people and there is nothing wrong with constructive feedback. Bitching at each other is never constructive.

Diplomacy may not always work but it is a lot nicer to try first :D

Subject: RE: Closing Threads
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 06:00 AM

my post was the best ,I posted only once,and that was to direct people to the playing of the late great PaulDavis on sound lantern,the message here is succinct,make music while we can, we may be dead tomorrow.

Subject: RE: Closing Threads
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 06:00 AM

I thought the age issues were quite important, actually.

I think there was a certain amount of tilting at windmills on both sides: "you ignorant young people!" on one side, "you arrogant old folkers!" on the other. A bit less of either would have calmed things down.

I realise that this is partly to do with the flippant nature of the responses from the "culprits" themselves, but I actually found that quite funny.Why should they be chastened and apologetic when they may well have nothing to apologise for?

Um... because Charley was telling them he was upset with them, basically. Apologising doesn't necessarily mean taking the blame. Three variants:

1. "I'm sorry we offended you"
= "we did something wrong on purpose and I'm sorry about that"

2. "I'm sorry the way we were acting offended you"
= "we may have done something wrong inadvertently and I'll think about that"

3. "I'm sorry if the way we acted offended you"
= "I don't think we did anything wrong, but I can see you're upset and I'm sorry about that"

Facing a complaint like Charley's, I'd expect anyone - and I do mean anyone - to start at 3. and seriously consider working up to 2. or even 1. As I said on the thread that wouldn't die, the best the CAFers offered was "people get offended, shit happens, we're all nice people so let's all forget about it".

Subject: RE: Closing Threads
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 06:01 AM

"Maybe a session marquee over on the campsite could work...as long as everyone vacated by midnight, of course! ;)"

hehehe guilty of not owning a watch and too drunk by then to read one ;) lol

Subject: RE: Closing Threads
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 06:05 AM

my post was the best ,I posted only once,and that was to direct people to the playing of the late great PaulDavis on sound lantern,the message here is succinct,make music while we can, we may be dead tomorrow.

I loved that... but I'm a sucker for concertina, big "last nights fun" fan cos of it ;)
I agree... I really cant see me playing a harp yet but when I do I want it to be a good session tune and I hope Paul Davis is entertaining the masses with his now because he was quality :D

Don't I know you Captain Birdseye?

Subject: RE: Closing Threads
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 06:05 AM

"Um... because Charley was telling them he was upset with them, basically."

By the time any of them appeared on the thread they'd already been tried and convicted by various members - no wonder they were defensive and not necessarily responding appropriately to the original complaint.

Subject: RE: Closing Threads
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 06:20 AM

I agree Phil but Ruth is also correct... they did seem to be hung, drawn and quartered before they could defend their actions. It's really hard for anyone to apologise when they have been accused so harshly and the incident is not fresh in their minds!

Subject: RE: Closing Threads
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 06:24 AM

Well, if it's the same crowd that played in the bar at Towersey last year, not only were they splendid, musically, but they even let this arthritic 53 year old tina player join in....!
I felt blessed....!

Subject: RE: Closing Threads
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 06:25 AM

it was the very same crowd, Ralphie. :)

Subject: RE: Closing Threads
From: Rasener
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 06:27 AM

Betsy
I don't know if walking away is the correct thing to do.
Most organisers are reasonable and wherever possible try to put things right.
I would much rather listen to somebodies complaint on a personal basis and try and put that right, than have them walking away dissatisfied.
If I go into a restaurant and I am not happy with the meal or service, then I go and have a discreet word with the person in charge and I have to say the situation is normally put right without any further problems.
Les

Subject: RE: Closing Threads
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 06:27 AM

Be careful... are you talking about the bar on site 1? or the three horseshoes?

Subject: RE: Closing Threads
From: Rasener
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 06:32 AM

Bloody hell this thread is growing very quickly, just like the other.

Subject: RE: Closing Threads
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 06:33 AM

let's beat the records and do 400 messages in a day, but only nice messages please ;) lol

Subject: RE: Closing Threads
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 06:36 AM

Houston, i know Ralphie and I was there when he was playing in the beer tent, so I assume that's what he means...:)

Subject: RE: Closing Threads
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 06:44 AM

oh... ok then :) I have a load of great photos from that (check on facebook) :) ... I really liked the pipes player, whathisname?!? Jakob?!?!

Subject: RE: Closing Threads
From: GUEST,Charley O'Neill
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 06:46 AM

Listen, I acknowledge the fact that this Cool as folk team were respectfull to other posters!! Fair play to them and get the cecil sharpe gold badges out , but, they WERE damned rude to me and I'm sure they know it and they havent even had the good grace to comment. That is what I'm talking about, no I am not delusional, yes they are good, it is so difficult to get a point understood on here!!!

Subject: RE: Closing Threads
From: Gulliver
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 06:46 AM

There have been hundreds of threads on Mudcat over the years that started off in a similar way to Charley's, relating to something that happened in a pub, or a festival, or folk club, etc. But few have produced such smug, bordering on arrogant, immature (IMHO) and disparaging responses as seen on this thread. I'm in principle against censorship, but I have to admit I wasn't sorry to see this thread closed. Sure, it was calming down towards the end, but that was only after the contribution of more level-headed posters who saw what was going on and commented on it.

Maybe I took the comments a bit too seriously, but I've been happily playing in all kinds of sessions for years and was depressed at the mind-set of some of the posters on this thread (and this includes those involved in organising sessions/festivals). But on the positive side, it did show me the kind of person I never want to get involved with at festivals or sessions.

Don

Subject: RE: Closing Threads
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 06:46 AM

" I really liked the pipes player, whathisname?!? Jakob?!?! "

yes - he's quite mad. A good ceilidh dancer, too.

Subject: RE: Closing Threads
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 06:57 AM

"Fair play to them and get the cecil sharpe gold badges out , but, they WERE damned rude to me and I'm sure they know it and they havent even had the good grace to comment."

As I understand, they did try to converse and console on the thread but there was no reply.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,'cool as folk' brigade - PM
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 01:57 PM

link to post

But I don't disbelieve you Charley, I actually empathise with you and I am certain that some individuals were displaying bad behaviour. Please calm down because I respect your feeling mate :D

Subject: RE: Closing Threads
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 06:58 AM

We were at Towersey at one of the beer tent sessions - played a couple of tunes and the response was less than enthusiastic! Some girl even retuned my fiddle when she borrowed it!

I cannot comment on the Big Session issue, but with regard to the sessions at festivals, they seem very different to those I am used to in pubs or at morris events. A lot of the unwritten rules just arent there. Its not a good or a bad thing, just different.

Subject: RE: Closing Threads
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 07:38 AM

I don't know how it works here but closing a thread is usually reversible and in some places and cases it may be used to provide a cooling off period or possibly to provide a mod with time to discuss a thread with admins without matters getting further out of hand or to spare them from having to make judgments on individual posts or posters.

Subject: RE: Closing Threads
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 07:42 AM

We could have at least had a verse from Rolling Home though before it closed ;) lol

Something like;

We will leave you our best wishes,
We will leave your rocky shores.
For we're bound to dear Old England,
To return to you no more.

:D

Subject: RE: Closing Threads
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 07:46 AM

Personal attack removed.

Guests must choose a consistent name and use it consistently. Otherwise their postings may be deleted.

- joe clone -

Subject: RE: Closing Threads
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 07:54 AM

Personal attack removed.

Subject: RE: Closing Threads
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 07:59 AM


Houston ,what are you on about, smug ,cocky troublecausing fool of a man - go away

:( ok then, sorry

Subject: RE: Closing Threads
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 07:59 AM

I don't understand why posters get so worked up about replies on threads... We are sitting safely at home/work behind a screen. Aren't we safe there?

I agree if you don't want to get upset about what's being said, don't open the thread. Let's have more free speach.

Sal

Subject: RE: Closing Threads
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 08:01 AM

Bye all

Subject: RE: Closing Threads
From: kendall
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 08:06 AM

Old Downeast saying, "If you know the dog bites"....

Joe has said time after time that personal attacks will be deleted. We all know that, but if you think the rules don't apply to you, well, you know the dog bites.

Subject: RE: Closing Threads
From: GUEST,Betsy at Work
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 08:07 AM

Hiya Villain,
I agree that walking away is maybe not the correct thing for YOU to do, but it is certainly the correct thing for ME to do, as I don't have your tact or diplomacy.
I completely accept everything you wrote and that your M.O. is the right way to do things.

Any overall cynicism about complaining, on my part, is largely based on other run-ins I've had, and I seem now to have a mindset, which is broadly based on the following: -
N.B.When reading the following, bear in mind that I AM English....

English (not British) Public Relations "ethics " appear to me, to rely on the Owner / Organiser / Boss firmly defending the status quo (who brought THEM into this discussion) in any situation.

Example:- Take a "bad" glass of beer back to the barman in England.
Stock answer - No one else has complained - Immediate Effect - Complainant isolated - end of story. One Party thinks it has done a good job the other Party feels aggrieved.

Take a bad glass of beer back to the barman anywhere BUT England.
Discuss, and furnish complainant with fresh glass of beer with a chat about how a such a thing could have happened and be avoided in the future occurred. Both Parties feel good.

Moral:- I don't want to be isolated, I want to feel good.   
   
On the censorship issue, some thickies like myself cannot detect deliberate disruptive individuals in the threads, though presumably they have a history of doing so.

Cheers Betsy

Subject: RE: Closing Threads
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 08:11 AM

"Example:- Take a "bad" glass of beer back to the barman in England.
Stock answer - No one else has complained - Immediate Effect - Complainant isolated - end of story. One Party thinks it has done a good job the other Party feels aggrieved."

really? I've mostly had the barman simply replace my pint.

Subject: RE: Closing Threads
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 08:22 AM

THere are so many other factors in the pub situation - how bad the beer is, how bad in comparison to the normal quality of beer the pub provides, how well you know the landlord, the manner in which you complain if you choose to do so. As a barman I would always change a beer if asked, if they cause a fuss and the beer is fine, I would offer something else. If they still cause a fuss then its their problem!

On a random rant, I went for a meal the other night with my girlfriend and 2 friends. The service wasnt amazing but the response by one of my friends made the situation very awkward. Getting a beer topped up that was about a millimetre below the measure line, moaning when the courses were brought out early, triple checking the bill and moaning about price, all made what would have been a reasonable meal into a pretty crap evening!