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The English Guitar/Cittern

Def Shepard 21 Jun 08 - 12:50 PM
Stu 21 Jun 08 - 12:45 PM
GUEST,Rambling Syd Rumpo 21 Jun 08 - 12:21 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 21 Jun 08 - 12:08 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 21 Jun 08 - 12:07 PM
GUEST,Jon 21 Jun 08 - 11:39 AM
Def Shepard 21 Jun 08 - 11:22 AM
irishenglish 21 Jun 08 - 10:11 AM
s&r 21 Jun 08 - 10:03 AM
Phil Edwards 21 Jun 08 - 09:25 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 21 Jun 08 - 09:17 AM
Howard Jones 21 Jun 08 - 09:10 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 21 Jun 08 - 07:26 AM
GUEST,English Rose 21 Jun 08 - 06:54 AM
Howard Jones 21 Jun 08 - 06:46 AM
Deeps 20 Jun 08 - 07:11 PM
Gene Burton 20 Jun 08 - 06:55 PM
Def Shepard 20 Jun 08 - 05:25 PM
Def Shepard 20 Jun 08 - 05:18 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 20 Jun 08 - 05:11 PM
Def Shepard 20 Jun 08 - 04:54 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 20 Jun 08 - 04:36 PM
irishenglish 20 Jun 08 - 04:34 PM
Phil Edwards 20 Jun 08 - 04:32 PM
irishenglish 20 Jun 08 - 04:21 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 20 Jun 08 - 04:16 PM
Def Shepard 20 Jun 08 - 04:00 PM
Sue Allan 20 Jun 08 - 03:51 PM
irishenglish 20 Jun 08 - 03:44 PM
Jack Campin 20 Jun 08 - 03:32 PM
Def Shepard 20 Jun 08 - 03:27 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 20 Jun 08 - 03:19 PM
Def Shepard 20 Jun 08 - 03:19 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 20 Jun 08 - 03:12 PM
Def Shepard 20 Jun 08 - 02:48 PM
Def Shepard 20 Jun 08 - 02:44 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 20 Jun 08 - 02:40 PM
irishenglish 20 Jun 08 - 02:29 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 20 Jun 08 - 02:26 PM
irishenglish 20 Jun 08 - 02:14 PM
Def Shepard 20 Jun 08 - 02:12 PM
irishenglish 20 Jun 08 - 02:04 PM
Def Shepard 20 Jun 08 - 01:49 PM
Def Shepard 20 Jun 08 - 01:43 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 20 Jun 08 - 01:41 PM
Def Shepard 20 Jun 08 - 01:41 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 20 Jun 08 - 01:22 PM
irishenglish 20 Jun 08 - 12:01 PM
GUEST,Howard Jones 20 Jun 08 - 11:58 AM
Def Shepard 20 Jun 08 - 11:11 AM
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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Def Shepard
Date: 21 Jun 08 - 12:50 PM

stigweard said, "surely after two years you know all there is to know, right?"

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say no, a bit radical I know, but I'm going with my basic feeling on the matter :-D


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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Stu
Date: 21 Jun 08 - 12:45 PM

I think you're all being a little harsh on old WAV, after all he has been into folk music for over two years now.

So why the feck should he listen to us upstarts? I mean, surely after two years you know all there is to know, right?


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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: GUEST,Rambling Syd Rumpo
Date: 21 Jun 08 - 12:21 PM

'Ello me dearie-os, As 'e must know boi now, WAV yurr bain't got no sense of humour, so in his honour oid loike to sing a Traditional Englis ballad (very sad indeed) oi come across whilst...well never mind that...here we go *strums cittern*...It be called

The Ballad of The Wogglers Moulie

(To the tune of `Clementine')
Joe he was a young cordwangler,
Monging greebles he did go,
For he loved a bogler's daughter,
By the name of Chiswick Flo.

Vain she was and like a grusset,
Though her ganderparts were fine,
But she sneered at his cordwangle,
As it hung upon the line.

So he stole a woggler's moulie,
For to make a wedding ring,
But the Bow Street Runners caught him,
And the Judge said he will swing.

So they hung him by the postern,
Nailed his moulie to the fence,
For to warn all young cordwanglers,
That it was a grave offence.

There's a moral to this story,
Though your cordwangle be poor,
Keep your hands off others moulies,
For it is against the law............ohhhhhh!


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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 21 Jun 08 - 12:08 PM

" To Volgadon - I myself, just above, posted that very question and, apart from barber-shop songs (plus someone on another thread, I think, suggesting bawdy songs), we are still not sure..? It has, however, been said that they were very common in the taverns and barber-shops of 17th century England. Were traditionally unaccompanied English folk-songs SOMETIMES accompanied with a cittern, whilst courtly songs were accompanied on a lute..? "

WAV, the vast majority of music for the cittern is italianate. That is, cittern players were copying French/Italian court culture instead of putting their skills into the English tradition.
So, what we have here is a German instrument brought over to England by Italians and used to play songs in an Italian and French style. Why should it be any more a part of the 'tradition' than the electric guitar?

Maybe a cittern player strummed along to Barbarah Allen once in a rare while, but we do have many, many more recorded instances of Eng trad songs being played on electric guitar!!!!!


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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 21 Jun 08 - 12:07 PM

We do know, Jon, that the cittern commonly had 10 pegs, for tuning 10 wire strings, plucked with a feather-plectrum, from what bird I, frankly, know not - although I doubt it was the bittern, which really does have a ring all of its own!


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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 Jun 08 - 11:39 AM

Behind my "beliefs", Howard, lie 4 tech. certificates; a degree in humanities, majoring in anthropology; travel on a shoestring through about 40 countries, etc., and plenty of extra "thought".

Much of the extra thought seems to me to be devoted to ramming square pegs into round holes.


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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Def Shepard
Date: 21 Jun 08 - 11:22 AM

It's my untutored opinion that WAV lacks the capability of introspection

Fortunately I'm not one of those 115 :-D

WAv replied in his usual tedious fashion, "Behind my "beliefs", Howard, lie 4 tech. certificates; a degree in humanities, majoring in anthropology; travel on a shoestring through about 40 countries, etc., and plenty of extra "thought"

Been there done that, once more I ask; What's your point?


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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: irishenglish
Date: 21 Jun 08 - 10:11 AM

Gene, thanks again for the myspace play count which you obviously seem to be contributing to yourself.And what English Rose said is most certainly true I would guess. WAV-I guess you have no comment whatsoever on anything I said, thereby proving that your mission on mudcat is pure egotistical self promotion. Pardon me, but I'm going to enjoy my weekend, have some beers, go hear some blues maybe, and enjoy the company of my wife.


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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: s&r
Date: 21 Jun 08 - 10:03 AM

Even if the list of accomplishments and qualifications were as high as many of the contributors to Mudcat, your arguments, beliefs, responses, conclusions, English, verse, and music would still be pretty naff

Stu


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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 21 Jun 08 - 09:25 AM

The difference is, some of us are still learning.


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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 21 Jun 08 - 09:17 AM

Behind my "beliefs", Howard, lie 4 tech. certificates; a degree in humanities, majoring in anthropology; travel on a shoestring through about 40 countries, etc., and plenty of extra "thought".


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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Howard Jones
Date: 21 Jun 08 - 09:10 AM

Sticking to what you believe in is not necessarily a bad thing, if those beliefs are properly thought out. However you appear to have reached your beliefs based on little knowledge or understanding of the subject. To then stick to these beliefs once the underlying errors have been pointed out is not commendable, its just stubborn.


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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 21 Jun 08 - 07:26 AM

I HAVE made changes to my site due to such threads/discussions/arguments; but, overall, yes, I do stick to what I believe in. And, our English Rose, I do, indeed, "put as much effort into jobhunting", whilst still managing to grow hedera helix!, whack a few tennis balls, go through my repertoire, of songs and hymns, weekly, etc.


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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: GUEST,English Rose
Date: 21 Jun 08 - 06:54 AM

On myspace the golden rule is less is more. All wavs plays are probably by himself anyway as hes never once offline constatly spamming the bulletin board for attention which is pretty sad. Hey, wav - if you put as much effort into jobhunting as you do promoting yourself on myspace youd be quids in.


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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Howard Jones
Date: 21 Jun 08 - 06:46 AM

"And, through all the scorn, abuse and opprobrium, WAV gains attention, brand recognition, and above all, 115 plays in the last 24 hours"

Attention, yes, but with what result? Hands up anyone who's impressed by his poetry, recorder or keyboard playing, or singing? All he's succeeded in doing is convince the world that he lacks talent, self-awareness and, despite his much-vaunted degree, an analytical mind.

If his poetry and music had any merit, we might respect that. If he argued his case persuasively, we might respect that, even if we disagree. But what comes across is that, despite his professed love for the music, he knows little about where it comes from or how it was performed, and doesn't seem interested in finding out if it conflicts with his preconceived ideas.

All he's succeeded in doing is let the world know he's a prat, knowledge which would otherwise be restricted to those who know him personally.


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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Deeps
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 07:11 PM

"Traditions exist due to folks being impressed by how their forebears did things..."

So how come the cittern fell out of use in the first place?


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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Gene Burton
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 06:55 PM

And, through all the scorn, abuse and opprobrium, WAV gains attention, brand recognition, and above all, 115 plays in the last 24 hours

Once more, I suggest that he who laughs last, laughs loudest.
Live and learn, peeps.


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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Def Shepard
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 05:25 PM

Oh My Lord! "Have you folks also heard it said that travel abroad tends to make people wish to practise their own culture more, as well as APPRECIATING others more..?

The saying actually is "travel broadens the mind."

Obviously, with you, it didn't work, did it?


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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Def Shepard
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 05:18 PM

and WAV replied, in his usual tedious fashion, "It has,however, been said"
you rely on tavern and barber shop gossip for your assertions? No wonder people question you, it just won't do, it just won't do. What we need here is academic proof, my boy, from reliable sources (not your mini-encyclopedias either). Please report to the department office by next Monday week with the proofs in hand.


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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 05:11 PM

To Volgadon - I myself, just above, posted that very question and, apart from barber-shop songs (plus someone on another thread, I think, suggesting bawdy songs), we are still not sure..? It has, however, been said that they were very common in the taverns and barber-shops of 17th century England. Were traditionally unaccompanied English folk-songs SOMETIMES accompanied with a cittern, whilst courtly songs were accompanied on a lute..?


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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Def Shepard
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 04:54 PM

WAV *Oh God the ennui* says" maintaining a nice multicultural-world"

just as long as that multicultural world doesn't find its way into England.

The whole world is not going to bow to you, WAV, so get used to it, The state of music in England is the way it is, and is NOT going to change because you don't like it. Might I recommend a long term sojourn in a monastery? Further to the point, I plugged in my fiddle and mandolin almost forty years ago,; and you know what WAV? I'm not unplugging either of them because you and others like you don't like it.


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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 04:36 PM

"Traditions exist due to folks being impressed by how their forebears did things; and, accordingly, taking this attitude is, I feel, vital for the cause of maintaining a nice multicultural-world, against the forces of globalisation/Americanisation – a cause which U.S. citizens themselves should support" (from here). As an English repat., I find plenty of good (i.e., I'm "impressed") in OUR OWN good traditions, and keep practising/performing some myself. Have you folks also heard it said that travel abroad tends to make people wish to practise their own culture more, as well as APPRECIATING others more..? "

Answer my question. What were they playing on the cittern?


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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: irishenglish
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 04:34 PM

By the way WAV-your grammar sucks.


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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 04:32 PM

Sue: Lithophonic schist you say?

Lithophonic schist - I've just said it. Although I have to point out that it's surprisingly difficult to type - at least first time (bad fingers!)

Lithophonic schist. I have said it twice. That alone should encourage the crew...


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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: irishenglish
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 04:21 PM

Well done WAV. Just ignore and quote, and quote, and quote again more meaningless stuff. Ladies and gentleman....its official.....the man will not listen or take advice from anyone.


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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 04:16 PM

"Traditions exist due to folks being impressed by how their forebears did things; and, accordingly, taking this attitude is, I feel, vital for the cause of maintaining a nice multicultural-world, against the forces of globalisation/Americanisation – a cause which U.S. citizens themselves should support" (from here). As an English repat., I find plenty of good (i.e., I'm "impressed") in OUR OWN good traditions, and keep practising/performing some myself. Have you folks also heard it said that travel abroad tends to make people wish to practise their own culture more, as well as APPRECIATING others more..?


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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Def Shepard
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 04:00 PM

" you're a pseudo-intellectual of the highest degree" Now that reminds me of a line from a song, but I can't for the life of me remember which one.. :-D


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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Sue Allan
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 03:51 PM

Yes irishenglish. Couldn't agree more.
Jack - brilliant suggestion! The curator of Keswick Museum plays the Richardson 'rock band' himself, and has done some work with folk musicians and a gamelan. Lithophonic schist you say, available in Scotland? Sounds like the sort of thing WAV's been talking for the past few months ...


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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: irishenglish
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 03:44 PM

Oh just stop it WAV. Seriously. You lose these discussions time and time and time again. You yourself, in your head think you're being so witty and above it all. You've been dismissed by musicians, scholars, and people such as myself who have been listening to this music for years longer than yourself. You've got nothing. Just quotes from what you deem is your life's work. You don't listen. You don't choose to debate rationally, sociologically, historically, and on and on. I've said it before-in your mind, its your way or no way. All this junk about top line melody, recorders probably not even made in England, keyboards that are probably made in Japan, morris dancing cricket and tennis balls, idiotic concepts of repatriating people to the closest safe nation, gardening only native English plants. Its self promotion of the worst sort. You use this forum as a barren ground for your own musings, instead of as a place of education, discourse, or even humour. I know more about many genres of music than you could ever hope to know. You know why? I listen. I find out where this came from, and where that came from. I don't place ridiculous notions of music being something that is limited as if it were a box, preserved in time, never allowed to change. Your concepts for English music are without any merit whatsoever. You seek to constantly critique the very thing you profess to love. Your political notions are simplistic and unrealistic. Your prose offers little in the way of contemplation. Your continued obfuscation on threads that you are the original poster of is, lets be blunt here-annoying. You are preaching to a choir of people who wish you would go back on walkabout somewhere for a couple of years. You post topics on mudcat that are on your website. But you post them not in a -Hey guys, be brutally frank here, how do you like this sort of way, but rather in a I'm an intellectual of the highest degree, therefore, bow down before my life's work sort of way. WAV-your thinking is nothing. Learn to discuss, learn to debate, learn to learn. Learn to do these things that most of us learned a long time ago.


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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 03:32 PM

This is another instrument developed in England:
The Till Family Rock Band .

Should go brilliantly with the stylophone and hunting horn in that Olympic welcoming band.


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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Def Shepard
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 03:27 PM

All Battoverse can see is his 'vision' of what England should be, outside of that nothing exists, everything else is to be dismissed, including, as I've already stated, the opinions of those who know far better the state of English folk music than Walkswithhisheaduphisarse will ever know.


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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 03:19 PM

WAV, what were those cittern players singing/playing in barber shops all those centuries ago?


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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Def Shepard
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 03:19 PM

they're also NOT folk musicians, so what's your point?


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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 03:12 PM

But those "big names" are Englishmen who decided to copy American pop/rock culture, rather than put their musical skills into the English tradition.


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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Def Shepard
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 02:48 PM

The ancestry of the cittern is questionable to begin with. But you're right, the electric guitar has asserted its right to Englishness.


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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Def Shepard
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 02:44 PM

Maart Allcock, Rado 'Bob' Klose (Floyd's original guitarist), Dave Davies, Robert Fripp, George Harrison


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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 02:40 PM

Yes, the list could go on, see what I mean? The electric guitar has as much claim to Englishness, if not more, than the cittern.


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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: irishenglish
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 02:29 PM

Richard Thompson, Jeff Beck, Ron Wood, Mark Knopfler, David Gilmour.............


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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 02:26 PM

I never claimed the electric guitar was INVENTED in England. To name but a few, in no particular order, Eric Clapton, Jimmy Page, Brian May, Ritchie Blackmore, Tony Iommi, Keith Richards, Peter Green, Pete Townshend.


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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: irishenglish
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 02:14 PM

Not to mention when he tucks that fiddle under his chin, or picks up that mandolin, or steps up to the mike and sings...I know Rosie......


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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Def Shepard
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 02:12 PM

Old WAV thinks he's above it all, after all he dismissed the opinions of Eliza Carthy and Chris Parkinson out of hand. Me? When Swarb speaks, I listen!


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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: irishenglish
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 02:04 PM

To WAV- I quote from the great David Swarbrick, "Ain't it nice to seem wise, when you've only surmised, and you haven't really got a clue."


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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Def Shepard
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 01:49 PM

Further to that, Adolph Rickenbacher and George Beauchamp were experimenting with the potential for electric guitars in 1931, indeed, what became the Rickenbacher Guitar Company made the first popularly availeable electric guitar


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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Def Shepard
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 01:43 PM

wonder if Les Paul was aware of that claim?


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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 01:41 PM

Or the electric guitar, an instrument VERY MUCH associated with England.


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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Def Shepard
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 01:41 PM

In 1828, Wheatstone IMPROVED the German wind instrument, called the Mundharmonika, until it became the popular concertina.

Note: the word is improve NOT invent

Actually there is one instrument that, perhaps, Wheatstone can claim to have invented....


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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 01:22 PM

I didn't include the harmonica, either - even though my two mini-encyclopedias, at least, say Wheatstone of England, rather than Buschmann of Germany, as it's inventor..?


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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: irishenglish
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 12:01 PM

.....Oh God do we know where its from. Do we ever know where its from. Expecting a cut and paste any moment now as answer.


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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 11:58 AM

INSTRUMENTS OF (OR CLOSELY ASSOCIATED WITH) ENGLAND (from here)

We know where its from, WAV

I refer you to my previous answer. Yes, they're associated with English music, but so what? The only one which can claim to be an English invention (disregarding the Stylophone) is the English concertina, but there were other similar instruments being developed in Germany at the same time, and the free reed is from China.

Strangely, your list doesn't include the two instruments most associated with traditional English music over the last 100 years or so: the fiddle (Italian) and the melodeon (German/Austrian).


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Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Def Shepard
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 11:11 AM

WAV once more says *yawn* "(Footnote: during the Athens Olympics ceremonies, the Greeks, pleasingly, presented their bouzoukis: I wonder how-many of the above instruments - and dances - will be shown at the London Olympics..?)
None we can fervently hope.


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