The English Guitar/Cittern

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 02:22 PM

To Volgadon - I hate imperialism be it Nazi, Victorian or any other; and, to my fellow goatee, etc., for what it's worth, Akonting has been on my Top Friends for months. Furhter, from this thread, I think I'll change "European lute" (me, above) for "lute-like instruments" (on my site).

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Def Shepard
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 02:24 PM

WAV says, "I hate imperialism be it Nazi, Victorian or any other;"
So you keep trying to tell us, I for one don't believe a single word of it.

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Howard Jones
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 02:26 PM

WAV, if you want to revive 17th century barbershop music based on the English Cittern, that's absolutely fine. However, you're promoting it on the wrong forum - this one is about folk music.

Try one of the early music forums.

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 02:27 PM

Eh? Who said a thing about imperialism?
Nice to see you ignoring my points about instruments NOT being national, like you seem to think.

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 02:28 PM

To be honest, Paul, there are few sounds I like better than really good banjo. A banjo player who comes to our folk club is one of the few performers I've been really embarrassed to go on after - I remember thinking I'd rather he just did another couple, for my sake as well as the audience's.

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 02:31 PM

What on earth is wrong with using it (and the recorder, e.g.) for folk, as well as (other) early music, HJ?

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: ClaireBear
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 02:45 PM

OK, so I know this is porobably a vain effort, but I'd actually like to hear about playing the English guitar in this thread.

When I had one, I tuned its five courses to C G C D G, which gave me basically a diatonic inctrument in C that could be played in major or minor. It sounded cool in a Martin Carthy, dulcimer tuning kind of way, and its sound was ideal for songs that happened to be in C and could be droned along to; one song that I remember sounding very good was "Brave Wolfe." As I recall, I did research the tuning before I chose this setup.

By the way, tuning it was a bit of a bear as the "friction pegs" didn't actually have all that much friction, so retuning between songs was pretty much out of the question.


Ultimately, along with the instrument's innate fragility, what caused me to give it up was that not everything I sang was in C or could be accompanied in a droning manner, especially not when I was playing with my band (which was most of the time).

So, has anyone experience with some other radically different tuning that allows more flexibility in key choice? Not that I expect Simon would sell me back the instruent now...

Claire

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 02:46 PM

Nothing WRONG with it, just the notion that it is somehow authentic or English.
Anyway, still ignoring me?

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Def Shepard
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 02:47 PM

I have this feeling that there no truly English musical instrument

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: TheSnail
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 03:11 PM

Stylophone?

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Def Shepard
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 03:19 PM

The Stylophone appears on a few commercial recordings, most notably David Bowie's Space Oddity

Does this make Bowie a folk musician? :-D

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Goose Gander
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 03:21 PM

Well, he does play an acoustic guitar at times . . .

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: irishenglish
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 03:25 PM

And he played sax on a Steeleye Span record

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: TheSnail
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 03:31 PM

Does this make Bowie a folk musician?

No. No more than it makes Anne-Sophie Mutter a folk musician because she plays the fiddle.

Anyway, I didn't say it was folk, just that it was English.

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Def Shepard
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 03:31 PM

That's it then, David Bowie IS a folk musican...ohhh it just occured to me, that must mean that the saxophone is a folk music instrument :-D

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Def Shepard
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 03:32 PM

ummm...sense of humour here... :-D

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: irishenglish
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 03:32 PM

Works for Martin Brinsford.

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Def Shepard
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 03:35 PM

That's right, Brass Monkey, and, of course the late, great The Home Service and the 'brassed' version of The Gresford Disaster by The Albion Band

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: TheSnail
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 03:44 PM

the saxophone is a folk music instrument

Of course it is. One of the best.

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 08:08 PM

I think I'll change "European lute" (me, above) for "lute-like instruments"

Please read this THIS. Basically in organological taxonomy lute is a category of basic chordophone types (the other categories being harp, lyre, zither & bow) that includes guitars, banjos, violins, sitars, mandolins, ukuleles, citterns, balalaikas, shamisen, rabab, saz, bouzouki, etc etc. It's worth reading up on such things before you start drawing any more of your conclusions; and the more you learn, the more you'll come to realise there are no conclusions to be drawn...

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: GUEST,RWM
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 11:37 PM

Sorry for the long response time Jack, it was played on a 19th century boxwood flageolet.

Robert Mouland
www.wireharp.com

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 01:45 AM

The reason I would prefer to hear an oud over a cittern any day of the week, is because it sounds stunning. They add a lot of colour and depth to songs, especially as the instrument is meant to accompany songs and stories. Citterns pluck, but the oud has SOUL!!!!!

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Banjiman
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 04:00 AM

"Whatever the case, one might well ponder the true roots of the ongoing Banjo Disparagement, no matter how tongue in cheek... "

Sedayne, quite right you could....however I prefer just to get on with the banter and enjoy the (usually!!) good natured insults that the banjo provokes. Helps deal with the Po faced attitudes in some folk clubs (not your local though, that's for sure!). I'll play you "5th String Jealousy" next time we visit you!

Oh, sorry, back to the English guitar, you know, I don't think I've ever seen one actually. Do they migrate or spend all year here?

Paul

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 04:55 AM

To Claire - this is what I found on cittern tuning - dustystrings.com

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 08:02 AM

If I'm not mistaken, most of the recordings there don't include cittern, but bouzouki.

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Grab
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 08:27 AM

What on earth is wrong with using it (and the recorder, e.g.) for folk, as well as (other) early music, HJ?

Did I miss something here?

You started an entire thread based on the premise that the so-called "English cittern" should be played more in English/British folk music. Your argument was not because the instrument sounded good, but because its name contains the word "English" and therefor you thought that its use was traditional in English folk music. At no point was your reasoning based on the musical properties of the instrument.

And now that more informed people have let you know what the *real* origins of the instrument are, you ask what's wrong with using it for folk. No-one ever said there was anything wrong with it. *YOU'RE* saying that there's something wrong with using non-English-origin instruments (which amounts to just about everything) in English folk music when those instruments happen to suit the music better than the alternatives. Unless you can keep your reasoning straight, why bother trying to start a debate?

FWIW, I play octave mandolin. There are a few songs that suit it perfectly - I could never sing Steve Knightley's "Galway Farmer" with any other instrument. There are also a lot of songs which don't suit it at all, but a guitar backing is perfect. I'd personally like to see more people playing octave mandolin, regular mandolin and viola in folk contexts, because I love the sounds they make. But realistically they're all minority instruments compared to violins and guitars, because they don't suit everything (or everyone).

Graham.

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 08:40 AM

I'd personally like to see more people playing octave mandolin, regular mandolin and viola in folk contexts, because I love the sounds they make

So would I, for the record. And the cello.

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Stu
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 08:41 AM

"If I'm not mistaken, most of the recordings there don't include cittern, but bouzouki."

. . . and they're Irish, not English too.

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 09:08 AM

INSTRUMENTS OF (OR CLOSELY ASSOCIATED WITH) ENGLAND (from here)

Northumbrian Bagpipes (bellows blown), Leicestershire Bagpipes (mouth blown); English Concertina, Anglo Concertina, Duet Concertina (and important developments to – if not inventions of – other key-boards, such as piano and organ, have also occurred in England); Dital Harp/Harp-Lute, English Cittern; English Flageolet, Penny Whistle, Recorder/English Flute, Pipe and Tabor (old Morris accompaniment), Bells, Brass, and (a recent one) the Stylophone
(Footnote: during the Athens Olympics ceremonies, the Greeks, pleasingly, presented their bouzoukis: I wonder how-many of the above instruments - and dances - will be shown at the London Olympics..?)

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Deeps
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 09:09 AM

"...and they're Irish, not English too."

Gerald Trimble being the exeption, he's American and plays a five course (10 string) mando-cello. Ironically on his last recording, Celtic Cantigas, he uses 'early instruments', possibly even the cittern.

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: theleveller
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 09:11 AM

"I'd personally like to see more people playing octave mandolin, regular mandolin"

I play octave mando as well as cittern and guitar. mrsleveller plays mandolin.

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Stu
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 10:04 AM

INSTRUMENTS OF (OR CLOSELY ASSOCIATED WITH) ENGLAND

Pint glass, vomit organ, arse pipes, rattling crisp bag, piddling pink flaccidette, half-a-brick and shop window pane, coppers helmet, car alarm, yaffing pit pull, whinging slapper, bladdered chav etc etc etc

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 10:18 AM

It might be quicker to list INSTRUMENTS that are NOT OF (OR CLOSELY ASSOCIATED WITH) ENGLAND

You don't see many National guitars, for instance. Mbira and didgeridoo are definitely minority tastes. Not many English koto or cueca virtuosi, either.

But you could make a perfectly good case for pretty much everything else - banjo, ukulele, sitar, sousaphone, Hammond organ, soprano sax, cello, bongos, turntables, I could go on. England is a big place.

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: GUEST,Veronica L. Footprint
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 10:22 AM

other key-boards, such as piano and organ, have also occurred in England

Likewise sitar, djembe, darbukka, didgeridoo, baja, dan moi, dholak, tumbi etc.

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 10:26 AM

What HASN'T occured in England?
Anyway, the banjo is as much an English folk instrument as the cittern. In one of my books (Mr. Kipling's Army, maybe) there is a picture of an officer playing the banjo. It was very popular at the turn of the century.

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 10:45 AM

The stylophone is arguably more Australian, given who popularized it.

I'd nominate the foxhunter's horn; I don't recall encountering one anywhere else in the world. But then no other country has so badly needed an instrument that could carry over the sound of its upper class braying.

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Sue Allan
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 10:55 AM

Not quite right there Jack: hunting horns are used in Cumbria (former Cumberland and Westmorland) by the fell packs, who hunt on foot and who are most definitely NOT upper class - let alone braying. More a case of needing the sound to travel far over the fells. Hmmm,there's a song there somewhere ...

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: theleveller
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 11:01 AM

Yes, Sue, it's probably The Granemore Hare or The White Hare of Howden.

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Def Shepard
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 11:11 AM

WAV once more says *yawn* "(Footnote: during the Athens Olympics ceremonies, the Greeks, pleasingly, presented their bouzoukis: I wonder how-many of the above instruments - and dances - will be shown at the London Olympics..?)
None we can fervently hope.

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 11:58 AM

INSTRUMENTS OF (OR CLOSELY ASSOCIATED WITH) ENGLAND (from here)

We know where its from, WAV

I refer you to my previous answer. Yes, they're associated with English music, but so what? The only one which can claim to be an English invention (disregarding the Stylophone) is the English concertina, but there were other similar instruments being developed in Germany at the same time, and the free reed is from China.

Strangely, your list doesn't include the two instruments most associated with traditional English music over the last 100 years or so: the fiddle (Italian) and the melodeon (German/Austrian).

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: irishenglish
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 12:01 PM

.....Oh God do we know where its from. Do we ever know where its from. Expecting a cut and paste any moment now as answer.

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 01:22 PM

I didn't include the harmonica, either - even though my two mini-encyclopedias, at least, say Wheatstone of England, rather than Buschmann of Germany, as it's inventor..?

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Def Shepard
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 01:41 PM

In 1828, Wheatstone IMPROVED the German wind instrument, called the Mundharmonika, until it became the popular concertina.

Note: the word is improve NOT invent

Actually there is one instrument that, perhaps, Wheatstone can claim to have invented....

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 01:41 PM

Or the electric guitar, an instrument VERY MUCH associated with England.

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Def Shepard
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 01:43 PM

wonder if Les Paul was aware of that claim?

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Def Shepard
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 01:49 PM

Further to that, Adolph Rickenbacher and George Beauchamp were experimenting with the potential for electric guitars in 1931, indeed, what became the Rickenbacher Guitar Company made the first popularly availeable electric guitar

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: irishenglish
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 02:04 PM

To WAV- I quote from the great David Swarbrick, "Ain't it nice to seem wise, when you've only surmised, and you haven't really got a clue."

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: Def Shepard
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 02:12 PM

Old WAV thinks he's above it all, after all he dismissed the opinions of Eliza Carthy and Chris Parkinson out of hand. Me? When Swarb speaks, I listen!

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: irishenglish
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 02:14 PM

Not to mention when he tucks that fiddle under his chin, or picks up that mandolin, or steps up to the mike and sings...I know Rosie......

Subject: RE: The English Guitar/Cittern
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 02:26 PM

I never claimed the electric guitar was INVENTED in England. To name but a few, in no particular order, Eric Clapton, Jimmy Page, Brian May, Ritchie Blackmore, Tony Iommi, Keith Richards, Peter Green, Pete Townshend.