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Tempus Est Iocundum

Jack Blandiver 18 Jun 08 - 10:55 AM
GUEST,leeneia 18 Jun 08 - 11:16 AM
George Papavgeris 18 Jun 08 - 11:27 AM
lady penelope 18 Jun 08 - 11:29 AM
Zen 18 Jun 08 - 11:33 AM
Jack Blandiver 18 Jun 08 - 11:44 AM
George Papavgeris 18 Jun 08 - 11:56 AM
Def Shepard 18 Jun 08 - 12:02 PM
Jack Blandiver 18 Jun 08 - 12:35 PM
George Papavgeris 18 Jun 08 - 02:21 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 Jun 08 - 02:47 PM
Micca 18 Jun 08 - 04:39 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 Jun 08 - 04:54 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 20 Jun 08 - 11:54 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 20 Jun 08 - 01:19 PM
Jack Campin 20 Jun 08 - 01:58 PM
Jack Blandiver 20 Jun 08 - 02:49 PM
katlaughing 20 Jun 08 - 04:04 PM
GUEST,bill 21 Jun 08 - 02:22 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 21 Jun 08 - 03:00 PM
Jack Campin 21 Jun 08 - 05:16 PM
GUEST 22 Jun 08 - 06:56 AM
GUEST,Tempus Fugit 22 Jun 08 - 07:04 AM
GUEST,Sedayne (Astray) 22 Jun 08 - 09:07 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 22 Jun 08 - 01:19 PM
Jack Campin 22 Jun 08 - 05:45 PM
GUEST 23 Jun 08 - 05:58 AM
menzze 23 Jun 08 - 09:12 AM
menzze 23 Jun 08 - 09:47 AM
GUEST 24 Jun 08 - 11:08 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 07 Jul 08 - 07:08 PM
Jack Blandiver 08 Jul 08 - 05:00 AM
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Subject: Tempus Est Iocundum
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 10:55 AM

Today I recorded my new 'arrangement' of that old mediaeval chestnut Tempus Est Iocundum (Codex Buranus 179) - essentially a live take of voice & saz to which I've added percussion (bendir & bells) & drone (electronic shruti box) by way of a seasonal frolic. Sung in Latin with free-verse translations, this is available as a free download mp3 for the next 7 days (100 maximum!) via YouSendIt by clicking the link below:

https://download.yousendit.com/59E392310C82AA1C


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Subject: RE: Tempus Est Iocundum
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 11:16 AM

Good show!


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Subject: RE: Tempus Est Iocundum
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 11:27 AM

Good stuff - I don't recognise the tune as Carl Orff's, is it yours Sedayne?


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Subject: RE: Tempus Est Iocundum
From: lady penelope
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 11:29 AM

Cool. I like your translated bits, they came over really well.


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Subject: RE: Tempus Est Iocundum
From: Zen
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 11:33 AM

Interesting arrangement and instrumentation... I enjoyed listening to it.

Zen


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Subject: RE: Tempus Est Iocundum
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 11:44 AM

I don't recognise the tune as Carl Orff's, is it yours Sedayne?

It's the original mediaeval tune from the CB ms, albeit derived from secondary sources!


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Subject: RE: Tempus Est Iocundum
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 11:56 AM

Ah, I get it, I know there were pneumes found with the original text, and they were deciphered after Orff wrote his music to it. Thanks!


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Subject: RE: Tempus Est Iocundum
From: Def Shepard
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 12:02 PM

Oh dear......

" Renaissance musicians may have seen the instrument (the cittern) as a rebirth or renovation of the ancient Greek kithara....

ooops :-D


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Subject: RE: Tempus Est Iocundum
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 12:35 PM

You got the right thread there DS?


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Subject: RE: Tempus Est Iocundum
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 02:21 PM

Yes, wrong Tempus DS, probably Fugit.


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Subject: RE: Tempus Est Iocundum
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 02:47 PM

Greatly enjoyed that. Downloaded and saved.
I have several Orff versions, and recently ordered the Naxos cd, Ensemble Unicorn, in which the music is closer to what would have been heard.

Is there a recording using the MS markings? If one looks at Amazon, one gets lost in the many offerings.

The best Orff that I have is one I recorded on VHS some time ago from TV (PBS?). I didn't catch the intro to this acted out version and have no idea who the performers are or where it was performed.
Can't find it on offer as either VHS or DVD.


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Subject: RE: Tempus Est Iocundum
From: Micca
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 04:39 PM

Q,If it is the bavarian Radio version done for Orffs birthday in 1980 or thereabouts, I am very interested in acquiring a copy, you will know as it has the delectable Lucia Popp singing the soprano part and doing the "Dulcissima" in a bath of bubbles!!! If you feel able to copy to DVD please PM me!!


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Subject: RE: Tempus Est Iocundum
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 04:54 PM

Micca, I will check tonight. Could be.

I have a lot of old VHS and I have been thinking about the Sony VHS to DVD video transfer system.

(There is a Burana cd with Lucia Popp available, but with New Philharmonia)


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Subject: RE: Tempus Est Iocundum
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 11:54 AM

It was Tom Binkley, in the 1960s, who made a reconstruction of the melody, based on the neumes in the MS. It was hypothetical, interpretation of the neumes are still uncertain.

In 1996, Joel Cohen and The Boston Camerata used Binkley's reconstruction of Tempus est iocundum (jocundum) in their cd, "Carmina Burana, Medieval Songs," issued by Erato. This cd, with their readings of the medieval melodies, is no longer is in the catalogue, but can be found for about $40. The deletion is understandable since their interpretations lack the force and spirit of the Orff score.

For anyone wanting more of the MS, Brost, Carmina burana, Lieder der Vaganten, about 295pp., can be found from Abebooks, etc. Latin and German.


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Subject: Lyr. Add: Tempus es iocundum
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 01:19 PM

179
Lyr. Add: TEMPUS EST IOCUNDUM

1
Tempus est iocundum, o virgines!
modo congaudete, vos iuvenes!
o! o!
totus floreo!
Refl.
Iam amore virginali totus ardeo;
novus, novus amor est, quo pereo!
2
Cantat philomena sic dulcitur,
et modulans auditur; intus caleo.
o! o!
totus floreo!
Refl.
Iam amore virginali totus ardeo;
novus, novus amor est, quo pereo!
3
Flos est puellarum, quam diligo,
et rosa rosarum, qua caleo.
o! o!
totus floreo!
Refl.
Iam etc.

4
Tua me confortat promissio,
tua me deporter negatio.
o! o!
totus floreo!
Refl.
Iam etc.

5
Tua mecum ludit virginitas,
tua me detrudit simplicitas.
o! o!
totus floreo!
Refl.
Iam etc.

6
Sile, philomena, pro tempore!
surge, cantilena, di pectore!
o! o!
totus floreo!
Refl.
Iam etc.

7
Tempore brumali vir patiens,
animo vernali lasciviens,
o! o!
totus floreo!
Refl.
Iam etc.

8
Veni, domicella, cum gaudio!
veni, veni, bella! iam pereo!
o! o!
totus floreo!
Refl.
Iam amore virginali totus ardeo;
novus, novus amor est, quo pereo!

Not in the DT and couldn't find in threads. The above from Projekt Gutenberg-DE.
Orff left out the Philomena verses.


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Subject: RE: Tempus Est Iocundum
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 01:58 PM

The Ensemble Unicorn version (which is pretty good) seems to have been put together by their director Marco Ambrosini, rather than just taking Binkley's. (Not all the tunes are derived from notation in the MS - he assumes some were "contrafacta", reused tunes, and picked ones that worked). Another version from about 20 years ago was by Rene Clemencic and his group - I presume he did his own re-edit too. I don't have his recording any more.

Sedayne, where did you get yours from?


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Subject: RE: Tempus Est Iocundum
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 02:49 PM

As far as I remember, I first heard Tempus Est Iocundum performed by Philip Pickett & the New London Consort in the early/mid 1980s, & later bought the album (Carmina Burana Volume 1) which I still have. Oddly enough, The Clemencic Consort's exhaustive 5 album set of Carmina Burana originals (mid 1970s) omits TEI, but remains something of a benchmark in the interpretation of Mediaeval song, along with their sets of Cantigas de Santa Maria & Troubadours etc. - in all cases the presence of idiosyncratic hurdy-gurdy maestro & singer Rene Zosso adds to the hoary darkness of the music! Nice to see him turning up on the new Hesperion XXI Estampies & Danses Royales disk. The NAXOS Unicorn / Wytars disk is good, with members coming up through The Clemencic Consort; and there are, literally, dozens of others that I've never heard. There's a very interesting version on YouTube somewhere too.

The tune I use I actually got from performing with musicians from Durham University in the early 1990s, as well as working with musicians from the Schola Cantorum Baliensis, so I've never questioned the general consensus on the melody, although variations, of course, do exist. I also performed & recorded it with the mediaeval group Misercordia pretty much with that melody, although the organum voicings & translation passages are entirely improvised in the spirit of the seminal influences in such matters.


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Subject: RE: Tempus Est Iocundum
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 04:04 PM

Thank you. Most interesting!


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Subject: RE: Tempus Est Iocundum
From: GUEST,bill
Date: 21 Jun 08 - 02:22 PM

about a year ago i recorded a version of "tempus est iocundum" (singing and playing oud) and uploaded it youtube - i learned the tune from the recorder player in our group. i'm trying to find out where she got it from because youtube informed me that SCHOTT MUSIC GmbH & Co. (german publishers) have requested that the video be removed because of copyright violation. (i checked the SCHOTT site - they only have the orff manuscripts on sale.)

this is news to me. i thought the tune was in the public domain - even the orff version, published over 70 years ago.

i've never seen a copy of the original manuscript - don't know if neumes relate specifically to the tune or if the binkley, pickett, etc., etc. versions differ from the one credited to orff ....

... does anyone know if this information is available on-line?


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Subject: RE: Tempus Est Iocundum
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Jun 08 - 03:00 PM

"Carmina burana," by Orff, was composed 1935-1936. He composed the music, not using neumes or other indications for the c. 24 poems that he selected from the MS (probably from the Brost or similar volume). Some parts of the songs were slightly modified or deleted.

The Orff texts and translations are here: http://ccc.classical.net/music/comp.lst/works/orff-cb/carmlyr.php

Schott Musik International, Mainz, Germany, holds the copyright to Orff's composition (Weihergarten 5, 55116 Mainz). Website www.schott-music.com


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Subject: RE: Tempus Est Iocundum
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Jun 08 - 05:16 PM

Orff died in 1982. Copyright runs to 70 years after the composer's death. Try again in 34 years' time.

Pickett's, Sedayne's and Ambrosini's tunes are all related, all based on mediaeval sources, and none is a variant of Orff's tune, which shows no sign of having been derived from anything before the 20th century.

I think I saw Bill's video before it went, and Schott has him bang to rights. That's just the way it is.


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Subject: RE: Tempus Est Iocundum
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jun 08 - 06:56 AM

i must listen again because i thought the "sedayne" melody - in mp3 you mentioned - sounded exactly like the one i sang.


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Subject: RE: Tempus Est Iocundum
From: GUEST,Tempus Fugit
Date: 22 Jun 08 - 07:04 AM

Bugger Orff!!!


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Subject: RE: Tempus Est Iocundum
From: GUEST,Sedayne (Astray)
Date: 22 Jun 08 - 09:07 AM

Bill - I think remember your video well; stunning stuff in my humble opinion, if it's the one I refer to above (self accompanied on a gittern or some such???). I think Schott must have their wires crossed with the Orff as the melody is beyond copywrite - surely?

Other videos of the same melody on You Tube still:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=k1yrll90udw


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Subject: RE: Tempus Est Iocundum
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Jun 08 - 01:19 PM

The video- A bunch of people looking for a tune?
(They didn't find one)


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Subject: RE: Tempus Est Iocundum
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Jun 08 - 05:45 PM

Maybe Bill *said* he was using Orff's tune in the text comments, when he actually wasn't?

In that case, what I would suggest: upload it again, re-recording it if necessary to make sure there is at least one verse that Orff didn't set, and state in your comments that you are using a tune derived from the mediaeval MS, but learned orally and indirectly from one of the people who transcribed and adapted it in the 1960s or later, and with no relation whatever to Orff's music. That might leave you open to a takedown by Pickett (not all that likely) but certainly not by Schott.


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Subject: RE: Tempus Est Iocundum
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 05:58 AM

i made no mention of orff in the commentary - all i said was that it came from carmina burana and that i performed it with a local, medieval music group.

screw 'em ... i dislike the idea of repetitive "covers" in any case. not everyone agrees, but to me - this is early folk music and i qualify! i'm working on a variation of the melody - a process i'm sure my "early music" predecessors engaged in.

not that i'll use any of them ... but "tempus est iocundum" can be sung to "old macdonald had a farm" ... "100 bottles of beer on the wall" ... "frère jacques" ... and at a pinch "the star spangled banner" ...

... cd available soon.


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Subject: RE: Tempus Est Iocundum
From: menzze
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 09:12 AM

In 1976 the first German medieval rockband OUGENWEIDE recorded "Totus Floreo" on their 4th album called Eulenspiegel. You can find it

here

The say it dates back to 1300 like most of Carmina Burana.
Even today a lot of medieval bands play their interpretation of this song in their shows.

The one you recorded sounds very different to all the others I have ever heard. It has a certain arabian touch in it that makes it strange to listen to it when you know it in a different way for more than 3o years. But why not play it this way, who knows how it had sounded 700 years ago.

Thanks for sharing it with us

all the best

menzze


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Subject: RE: Tempus Est Iocundum
From: menzze
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 09:47 AM

I found a short snipped to listen to the 1976 version by Ougenweide
on Amazon
Click on track 11. Totus Floreo

menzze


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Subject: RE: Tempus Est Iocundum
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 11:08 AM

here's my - hopefully - original melody and arrangement:

http://earlymusicmandolin.ning.com/video/video/show?id=2167739%3AVideo%3A22

... where's yours?

- bill


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Subject: RE: Tempus Est Iocundum
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 07:08 PM

The "Carmina burana" book by Brost mentioned by me is selective, with a rather small complement of verses from the MS, but a long discussion.

The complete text of the Carmina burana MS is online; http://gutenberg.spiegel.de/?id=5&xid=52&kapital=1


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Subject: RE: Tempus Est Iocundum
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 05:00 AM

David Parlett produced a comprehensive selection of translations of the Carmina Burara poems for Penguin Classics, with a section of translations of the poems used by Orff intended for singing in place of the Latin. There is a website for these Orff translations Here. I might add that none of this works for me at all as the metrical nature of the Latin verse comes across as unpoetic in the extreme when put into English, hence my own free-verse translations, which aren't actually translations at all, rather attempts at writing a new poetry based on a number of other translations, as I don't speak Latin.

Of course in this day and age, I might stick a verse into an online auto-translator and see if anything inspires me. For example 0 Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis, semper crescis aut decrescis; vita detestabilis comes out as: 0 Fortune, just as moon statue variabilis, always to grow either to wane, life execrable, which, to my ears, is a lot more poetic than Parlett's O how Fortune, inopportune, apes the moon's inconstancy: waxing, waning, losing, gaining, life treats us detestably. In such a random approach something of the meme of the thing emerges by way of a filter though which we might gain a clearer appreciation of what the intention of the original lyric might have been in terms of pure poetic image, and in any case such an interpretation is always subjective, unless straight-jacketed by a more scholarly consensus, which, as a non-scholar, isn't much use to me at all.


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