BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'

Subject: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,suffering in Zimbabwe
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 07:38 PM

I'm intrigued to see so many threads here about Bush/Iraq/Iran/Arab/Israeli/..... issues (and many with legitimate arguements), yet not a single voice raised about the despicable situation in Zimbabwe.

So what ARE your views on the situation, given the crucial run up to the voting at the end of June?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,suffering in Zimbabwe
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 07:43 PM

arguments

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 08:10 PM

GUEST--Which despicable situation do you refer to? The confiscation of farms with the catastrophic drop in food production? The economy breaking inflation? The lack of fair elections by the ruling powers or Mugabe's refusal to allow the winners to take office?

You said it. It is all despicable. And perhaps more.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 08:12 PM

Sorry, I read your post but not the title...but my comments remain the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 02:06 AM

Unfortunately Guest as the situation in Zimbabwe cannot be used to hammer away at GWB it will not even raise an eye-brow on this Forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: alanabit
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 03:02 AM

It is an appalling situation with another brutal, mad dictator. My view is that open resitance from good people will simply lead to more deaths of good people. Too many good lives have already been wasted. For the time being, those people must stay alive so that they can rebuild the country when Mugabe has gone. He is an old man and his tyranny can not last for many more years. There is a case for diplomatic and possibly economic action by other countries. However, I fear that any direct interference in Zimbabwe's affairs would result in even more tragedy for that unhappy country. Mugabe has announced that opponents may not vote for the opposition and he has every intention of enforcing that. He would not recognise an opposition victory, even if it were to win the election (which it won't). The regime will eventually collapse because eventually too few people will actively support it. That has happened in other countries and I believe it will happen in Zimbabwe. These are terrible days, but they will pass.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Zen
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 05:16 AM

I agree with all that Alan said. It is a brutal regime and Tabo Mbeki's refusal to try and influence change is appalling as well.

These are terrible days, but they will pass.

Yes... probably and certainly I hope so. But unfortunately not in time for my friend Patience, a talented medical researcher and warm human being, who died there last year at only 39.

Zen

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 05:40 AM

"Unfortunately Guest as the situation in Zimbabwe cannot be used to hammer away at GWB it will not even raise an eye-brow on this Forum."

Apart from all those links at the top ...

Desperate to score cheap points, Teribus yet again planted his foot firmly in his mouth.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 05:51 AM

here's one

here's another

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 05:54 AM

and another

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Mr Happy
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 06:59 AM

I had a quick peek here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimbabwae to check out natural resources.

None mentioned, so I guess if there's no oil etc there, then there prob won't be a global outcry?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Leadfingers
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 09:25 AM

Well as old Ebagum said in Rome that ALL the problems in Zimbawe are Great Britains fault , as a citizen of said Colonial Power I darent comment in case the bastard sends some of his thugs after me !!

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 10:55 AM

Eh What links on the top Guest Lox?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,Cats
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 11:27 AM

***This has to be actioned today***

Next Monday (23 June) Wellington Chibebe and Lovemore
Matombo of the Zimbabwean Congress of Trade Unions are due to stand
trial, having been arrested last month for supposedly 'spreading
falsehoods prejudicial to the state'.
Their arrest means that Mugabe has effectively succeeded in silencing
them for most of the re-run Presidential election campaign, as a
condition of their bail (which they were initially refused) has banned them from appearing in public or making public statements.
On the day of the trial, the TUC and ACTSA will be showing support for Wellington and Lovemore outside the Zimbabwean Embassy on the Strand by creating a giant mosaic of their faces, made up (we hope) of 2,000 tiny supporters' faces from around the world.
If Wellington and Lovemore are banned from appearing in public, we want thousands of people to show solidarity and help them 'appear' at the London demo and in other demos that will be happening around the world. The plan is to use the picture to get more attention on the demo and in the media.
But, and this is the difficult part, we only have three days to get hold of all the photos, and this is not going to be easy.
If you would like to feature as a tiny part of the big mosaic, send a photo of yourself, by email to [e-mail] or MMS a cameraphone
snap to 07546 229055.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Goose Gander
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 11:38 AM

"Your vote is your bullet"

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: alanabit
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 12:02 PM

I had already read that article. The fact is that the opposition is facing a two headed penny. If they win the election (which I think is unlikely given ZANU-PF's systematic cheating and intimidation) they will still not be allowed to assume power. If they "lose" it, it will be claimed by Mugabe as "legitimising" him. What the MDC has got is time. I don't think Mr.Mugabe has as much of that as he would like to think.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Leadfingers
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 12:16 PM

And then 'Someone' has murdered the wife of the Mayor of Harare and burnt his house to the ground !

Some Hopes of a fair election!

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 06:14 PM

A fair election has nothing to do with it.

It's about having nothing to lose.

Keep him - suffer ...

Vote against him - suffer ...

but hopefully start a slow avalanche.

Tsvangirai will probably die in this.

The west should step in before it happens.

But they will probably wait and use his death as the excuse, holding him up as a martyr.

And then stick in the next puppet.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 10:35 PM

"Unfortunately Guest as the situation in Zimbabwe cannot be used to hammer away at GWB it will not even raise an eye-brow on this Forum."

Wanna bet?

I would love to see the UN mount a full-scale invasion of Zimbabwe. Unfortunately, that's not going to happen because Mr. Bush has committed every available US troop to his senseless personal vendetta run amok in Iraq, and a UN police action without US involvement is dead in the water.

Is that hammery enough for ya?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 10:42 PM

Ask China to do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 12:20 AM

"I would love to see the UN mount a full-scale invasion of Zimbabwe" - Read the UN Charter for starters, then you would know that what you've said is impossible. Next review the active participant track record of the UN and you will see what you've said is impossible.

"that's not going to happen because Mr. Bush has committed every available US troop to his senseless personal vendetta run amok in Iraq," - For a start US troops are present in both Iraq and Afghanistan operating under UN Mandates. Secondly, the level of troops committed amounts to 17% of US total strength - Every available US troop indeed.

If you are going to come out with such Bee-dubya-ell - less emotive crap and more fact. Such as the US and UK has done more to raise the profile of what has happened, and what is happening, in Zimbabwe than most other countries, oh, and George W. Bush and his administration has tried harder than any other to get the UN to shift itself off its big soft lard-assed butt over Darfur than any other.

"a UN police action without US involvement is dead in the water"
Maybe it would have been better for the people of Zimbabwe and Darfur if the US & UK had acted unilaterally in both cases - Oh, but hang on you lot are against that when they've done it in the past.

As Rap says get China to do it, possibly with the assistance of France, Germany and Russia. At least with a couple of those participants captured weaponry could be used as it was them that supplied it in both cases.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Charley Noble
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 11:49 PM

We did have another long thread on Zimbabwe a month or so ago, after the initial election.

No sane person would expect a "fair and free" election in Zimbabwe this time around.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 21 Jun 08 - 07:09 AM

A major issue here, and I think one of the reasons why external force has not been contemplated, is the impact/influence/relationships with the rest of the Southern African countries, many of which until recently followed Mbeki's appeasement. There is a strong sense that any lasting solution must be an "African" solution, it must come from, and involve, Zimbambwe's neighbours. Yesterday for the first time Tanzania and the rest came out openly to criticise Mugabe, leaving Mbeki alone to bleat about giving his old pal more time.

It is important that Tsvangirai does not withdraw, as he is considering doing right now. We will know on Monday. But any force applied to the situation must be local, or we could be facing a UN presence there for 10 years or more, trying to sort out the aftermath.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: alanabit
Date: 21 Jun 08 - 08:15 AM

I disagree George. I think Tsvangirai must withdraw to save as many of the lives of his supporters as he possibly can. He has no chance of winning and being recognised as a winner. Mugabe has already announced that. Zimbabwe will not become a democracy until the post Mugabe era at the earliest. Tsvangirai must also face up to likely imprisonment until the end of Mugabe's reign. For the time being, he must do his best to keep both himself and as many of his supporters as possible alive. There have been quite enough heroic gestures already. Any more would be futile. Those people will be needed in the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 22 Jun 08 - 02:34 PM

Mugabe WINS again!
Per Reuters, owing to violence and thuggery associated with Mugabe's party, his runoff opponent has today dropped out of the Presidential election.

Comment: 'res ipsa loquitir.'

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 22 Jun 08 - 05:57 PM

Mugabe gave him an implicit ultimatum:

Give up or I'll kill your supporters.

If Tsvangirai was the egomaniac that Mugabe is he might have carried on with his Glorious campaign.

But the difference between them is that Tsvangirai doesn't see other peoples lives as currency with which to make political gambles.

He had to withdraw.

The people have no food, let alone the resources to support any kind of uprising.

Mugabe has crushed them underfoot as revenge for embarrassing him at the last election.

Tsvagirai is right, it is a war between Mugabe and the Zimbabwean people, waged with economic sanctions and violence.

Mbeki is a spineless toad.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: alanabit
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 08:17 AM

It's a pretty hollow "victory", although I would say that Tsvangirai has made the only responsible choice. Committing suicide rarely helps a cause. Mugabe says "only God" can remove him. Perhaps a few of the more religious Mudcatters might prevail upon their Guvnor to expedite the process...

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 09:09 AM

Things will get worse before they get better.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 01:52 AM

Morgan Tsvangirai has taken refuge in the Dutch Embassy, wise decision, Mugabe would surely have had him killed, he still may.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 03:32 AM

Just as it was not legitimately the place of the USA to free the people of Iraq (and look where it got the people of Iraq when the USA did so!), it is not the position of countries other than Zimbabwe to rid the world of Mugabe.

Nonetheless, it might be legitimate to ask why anyone should, as they do, apparently seek to resist his removal.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,Hans
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 05:51 AM

It is their culture, their land and their choice. Let them get on with it. Just remember when as usual it all goes tits up and someone arrives on your tv screen with the begging bowl, it was their choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: alanabit
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 08:26 AM

Their choice? The Zimbabweans currently have the choice of either voting in Mugabe for another five years of cruelty and incompetence, or else waiting for the knock on the door in the night. Would you like that sort of "choice" where you live Hans?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 09:00 AM

I think Hans may have been attempting sarcasm.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: alanabit
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 10:10 AM

I hope so. Unfortunately I really have met people, who are that callous.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,Hans
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 11:59 AM

Do you honestly understand their culture ? Please give me the name of one country in Africa that has either made a successful go at independence or is capable of democracy ?

Exactly, none.

We will be asked to put our hand in our pocket for the next one hundred years to feed these nations. Has Live Aid Helped ? has millions of pounds of overseas aid helped ? It hasn't even made a dent in the standard of living of those counties.

You can see from the newsreels their armies run the latest four wheel drives and weaponry, where does the money come from for that ?

At the end of the day it is the responsibly for the government of these counties to see to the needs of their people. Tribal leaders call the shots in the majority of them. We can never change centuries of tradition.

I may not agree with these tin pot dictators, but I know none of us will never change these countries. Leave them to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 12:02 PM

"For the time being, those people must stay alive so that they can rebuild the country when Mugabe has gone. He is an old man and his tyranny can not last for many more years."

I believe that in this day and age what is written above is rather fanciful. The rule of ZANU-PF in Zimbabwe will continue until such time as it is overthrown by force. Mugabe has not the sole architect of Zimbabwe's demise, he has been ably assisted by ZANU-PF's upper echelons, who even if Mugabe were to die tomorrow would have a vested interest in keeping hold of the reins of power in that sad country. I dare say amongst the 150 named faithful, enthusiastic and loyal lieutenants there will be some that are even more extreme than Bob.

"There is a case for diplomatic and possibly economic action by other countries."

Damn right there is, after 27th June, no representative of this "governing cabal of thugs", their wives, or their children, should be recognised anywhere on this earth. The second any of them set foot outside Zimbabwe they should be turned straight round and sent back. Any overseas assets should not only be frozen but seized and placed in an internationally held fund and kept for the day they have gone. Not a single penny in aid to any country giving succour or any vestage of legitimacy to Mugabe's regime. SADC countries should be swamped with MDC refugees from Zimbabwe seeking political asylum. When they have that lot to feed, house and clothe, then maybe they just might be willing to consider some way of aiding them in getting rid of Marxist Mugabe and ZANU-PF for good.

I have found it interesting reading comments in the British press where people are clamouring for military intervention on the part of the US and the UK. The self same people who objected so vociferously when the same parties intervened in Afghanistan and Iraq to affect regime change. To them I would only say this, The Taliban and Saddam Hussein's reign of terror in Afghanistan and Iraq respectively, makes Mugabe's antics in Zimbabwe look like the efforts of a Boy Scout.

The UN of course will do what it does best - Nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 12:08 PM

Well, when I think about just how messed up things are here in the USA with Bush all I have to do is think about how terribly things are messed up in Zimbabwe... I mean, seriously messed up...

If it hadn't been for Bush's insistence on pushing the UN into a corner on Iraq the UN and the US could use its power for situations like this but Iraq has kinda messed things up in that respect and folks are reluctant to act internationally not only in Zimbabwe but Sudan...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 12:40 PM

Gosh, it seems Hans does not do sarcasm. No, I can't think of a well-run African country either (offhand), but I'm not sure that justifies leaving millions to die - but on the other hand is there anything that justifies one country interfering in the solely internal affairs of another? What would the proponents of "international action" say if the situation were reversed, and the UN had wished to intervene after (hypothetical) electoral corruption in the USA, or the UK? What was done about electoral corruption in former USSR countries? Why is intervention only justified if the target country is African or Asian led?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: alanabit
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 02:07 PM

I think it is rather fanciful to refer to Mugabe as a "Marxist", but we have done that one on another thread, without making much progress. Otherwise, I am in agreement with every word of of Teribus's arguments in favour of diplomatic and possibly economic action by other countries. That can be done and it must be done.

Whereas I take the point that Mugabe is not the only murderous thug in Zimbabwe, I have every confidence that the regime will duly collapse. I believe I will live to see it.

The situation is horrible, but like many other posters here, I believe it could actually be made worse by miltary intervention - especially by a Western country. Possibly the only way one could have made Iraq less safe was by attempting "regime change" the way we did in 2003. Interference in other countries' internal affairs is letting a genie out of a bottle, which you can't easily put back there. Getting rid of Mugabe in itself would not be difficult. Replacing him with a duly elected leader, who had a genuine mandate from the people, would be a different matter entirely.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 04:16 PM

My dear Hans ...

I think you are right.

It would be great if these countries were left alone to do their own thing.

No really.

If They were allowed to ... say ... have ownership of their own resources ...

... diamonds ... oil ...

If children weren't exploited from egypt to south africa by western companies ...

if usefully corrupt governments weren't propped up by western interests and bribes in order to ensure a nice fatt flow of income from africa to europe and the US ... and now China ...

Africa is being rinsed out like an old cloth.

Political independance was an illusion for most of africa and it is that reality that monsters like Mugabe are able to distort to justify their crimes.

Yes. The west should leave africa alone to sort itself out.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 04:19 PM

"Unfortunately Guest as the situation in Zimbabwe cannot be used to hammer away at GWB it will not even raise an eye-brow on this Forum."

I also saw it didn't raise any objections from those who DO support Bush. That aside, my government is in receipt of an e-mail from me asking what Canada is doing. FYI!

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 04:32 PM

"The rule of ZANU-PF in Zimbabwe will continue until such time as it is overthrown by force."

Dead right. I suspect that such force will eventually be found within Zimbabwe itself...that usually happens at some point in a country with a government as insane as this one is. (Although, in the case of the Khymer Rouge it took a Vietnamese invasion to bring them down.)

In the meantime I think that the international community should apply exactly the kind of financial and diplomatic pressure Teribus has suggested. If no one was willing to do business with that government, it would soon fall.

Burma (Myanmar) comes to mind as well in that respect.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 04:32 PM

An interesting twist in the tale could be that the people, unaware that tsvangirai has pulled out, might take their courage in their hands and vote for tsvangirai anyway, in which case there may still be the possibility that he wins more votes anyway.

Unlikely I know, but possible nonetheless.

In which case Mugabes nose would be well and truly rubbed in the dirt.

After losing a rigged election, he could end up losing another rigged election in which he is the only candidate.

I would laugh and laugh and laugh ...

God help them!

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 04:42 PM

"In the meantime I think that the international community should apply exactly the kind of financial and diplomatic pressure Teribus has suggested. If no one was willing to do business with that government, it would soon fall."

Sorry LH, but there is no sanction on earth that could worsen the ecomonic situation in Zimbabwe.

150,000% inflation?

It's already at a point far beyond that which sanctions could ever pretend to contrive.

And as I understand it there are already sanctions on Burma.

When you have all thhe guns and all the money the people don't stand much chance.

Force may be on the cards already. It seems like jaded MDC youths may be staring to turn to violence.

Sticks and stones are no match for guns though.

The ANC are speaking out in SA, the pressure on Mbeki is a key factor.

Te emphasis on his "consent" is too much, but it seems that it will be the thing that gives legitimacy to intervention.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 04:57 PM

The inflation simply hurts the ordinary people. I'm suggesting financial and diplomatic actions that would directly affect the ruling elite in that country and make things very tough for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 05:58 PM

The measures to be taken are not sanctions aimed at Zimbabwe. The actions that should be taken are aimed at stripping Mugabe and his ZANU-PF cohorts of their ill-gotten gains, rob them of their wealth. The sanctions should also be levelled at any country giving Mugabe's regime any sort of legitimacy whatsoever, they then have a rather stark choice to make, prop up a thief and a murderer, or stand with the rest of the international community.

I heard a report that Australia has already withdrawn educational/school priveleges for children of Zimbabwe's ruling ZANU-PF elite and requested that they return home. I have seen no confirmation of this, but it sends home the right sort of signal.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 06:28 PM

The point of sanctions is to put pressure on the government by creating economic discontent among the people.

Unhappy people put pressure on their government.

Seeing people in poverty puts pressure on governments.

Mugabe couldn't give two hoots about the people of Zimbabwe.

He and his military cronies are only concerned that whatever wealth does exist in Zimbabwe belongs to them.

And they'll make sure their nests are feathered at whatever cost to the people.

I agree that action needs to be taken against Mugabe, and I agree that Australia are right to do what they have done. Hopefully the African nations will follow suit.

The solution lies with Mbeki and he won't do anything until he's sure about not being seen to be a mouthpiece for white south africans sympathetic to white zimbabwean farmers.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 01:07 AM

Their overseas bank accounts ought to be frozen.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 04:12 AM

A lot of hypocrisy here by the same right wingers who condemned the anti apartheit demonstrators all those years ago!
The people who suported successive White South African regimes or Smith's UDI should be barred from this discussion.
Perhaps, looking long term, the Zimbabwian people have in Mugabe the lesser of two evils.

What will Western style "democracy" bring to the Zimbabwians? It will destroy their cultural freedom and turn then into economic slaves, just like their shackled forebearers and just like us!
Especially in the hands of Mr Tsvangirai, a man so inspired by the democratic process, that he was caught on camera some years ago plotting with Western interests the assasination of Mr Mugabe.

Who are we to lecture Mugabe while we cause the deaths of millions worldwide for our own very undemocratic interests?
Why the obsession with Mugabe when millions die of starvation in other parts of Africa?
I smell a rat...and it's not just Teribus...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 04:42 AM

I too have less than certainty in Morgan Tsvangirai, but a local assassination of Mugabe (who, obviously, is not a Marxist in action) seems a good idea. Democracy there is broken and means of democratic change are unavailable. It seems to me that regarding Mugabe as the lesser of two evils is to look at him through rose tinted spectacles.

Nonetheless what Ake says about the imposition of Western democracy has some validity - but to fail to distinguish between democracy as such and Western democracy as an example is to make the same error that many do when they point to the USSR as a communist regime.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,Hans
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 05:02 AM

"The people who supported successive White South African regimes or Smith's UDI should be barred from this discussion."

Very democratic akenaton.

The Western world has no role to play in Africa, they made it clear they don't want us. Leave them to it.

They will be in touch soon enough for food parcels.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 09:44 AM

"They will be in touch soon enough for food parcels."

You have a disgusting mind.

When will people like you understand that Africa has never been allowed to get off it's knees by the west.

They need to be allowed to be genuinely independant ... economically as well as politically.

Then they won't need to beg anyone for what should already belong to them.

Africa continues to be plundered for it's resources.

It's people are no longer on the list of saleable resources, and it's governments have the same skin colour as their subjects, but its other natural resources are still owned by the west and it therefore continues to depend on the mercy of the west for survival.

And I haven't even got started on the damage inflicted by the IMF and World Banks "development strategies" which limit agriculture to cash crops and effectively turn each country into the producer of one product - Cocoa from Ghana etc etc ...

You are making deeply insulting observations about a continent of human beings and your understanding of that continent is based on complete ignorance of the economic realities there on the one hand and a deeply racist view of Africans on the other.

let me guess ... Hans ...

Not a white south african are you?

Bit bitter that the Kaffirs have taken over eh?

Why is it that whenever I meet a white south african, they always claim never to have supported apartheid?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 09:45 AM

We haven't heard from "GUEST suffering in zimbabwe" recently.

Any ideas why hans?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 10:12 AM

We here in the UK have done the best possible thing, we've ASKED them not to send their cricket team here.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,Hans
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 11:38 AM

"I haven't even got started on the damage inflicted by the IMF and World Banks" Gullible Lox, if you borrow money there is an expectation that you should pay it back. It's called a loan for a reason.

Your pitiful examples make me yawn. Stop blaming the west on all their ills. Okay, so you seem to think they can manage their own resources and sustain self government. Please supply examples of the success stories you know about.

Again, your views, my views and outside interference will make no difference whatsoever to the situation in Africa. It's tribal plain and simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 11:40 AM

"Perhaps, looking long term, the Zimbabwian people have in Mugabe the lesser of two evils." - Akenaton

As breath-takingly an idiotic statement as one might expect to uttered by, "oor wee Heilan' Anarchist".

You canvas the population of Zimbabwe today who were old enough to have exeperienced Smith's rule (a bit hard as average life expectancy in the paradise Akenaton claims is Mugabe's Zimbabwe is only 37 years, damn sight less if you happen to support any other party than ZANU-PF) and I am sure that you would find that they long for the good old days with:

- Housing;
- Food;
- Paid employment;
- Wages that were actually worth something;
- A free health service;
- A functioning system of education available to all;
- Roughly 20,000 to 30,000 more Matabele than there were before Mugabe took over;
- Rule of Law & Order.

No doubt Akenaton can list what bounties are now available under the philanthropic rule of "Black" Bob and I am referring to his soul, not his skin colour.

Guest lox, you never did get back to me on the non-existant links that I was supposed to have heeded before putting my foot in my mouth.

Couple of things from your post:

"It's people are no longer on the list of saleable resources, and it's governments have the same skin colour as their subjects"

Well Guest lox hate to disillusion you but what you describe above was the status quo at the height of the "Slave Trade", although the "Government" was the Tribal Chief and his Councillors.

"Bit bitter that the Kaffirs have taken over eh?"

Any idea where that word "Kaffir" comes from Guest lox? I bet that you think it is Afrikaans, but its not, it belongs to the language of those, all those Tribal Chiefs of similar skin colour to their wares, sold their slaves to - Arabic, kâfir meaning unbeliever, infidel.

Presented with a prosperous, functioning country in 1980, the populace voted in Robert Mugabe who within three decades converted the place to a basket case shambles. I can hear Ian Smith mutter, "I bloody well told you so". Well Ake, Guest Lox, you are right it is not the UK's problem, it is not the "big-bad-West's" problem - It is Zimbabwe's problem, let 'em get on with it.

Maybe Ake and Guest Lox should muster their butts down there to help, I cannot for the life of me see how things could get worse, but I am sure the pair of them would manage it somehow.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 12:47 PM

I believe Iraq was a pretty prosperous country before the West moved in with sanctions, bombs and bullets.......all supported by "middle sized" Teribus.

As Lox has already stated Mugabe's regime was never going to be allowed to flourish. Part of the "good old British empire" being run by a "Marxist" that would never do old boy!

What about the thousands dying of starvation in Sudan and Ethiopia.
Mugabe's killed 84? By Christ he's got to go a long way to catch Bush and Blair!

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 01:40 PM

It is my understanding, akenaton, that it was his British advisors who suggested that Mugabe confiscate (White) farm holdings, and parcel them out to his cronies anfd squatters, who ran those once prosperous holdings into non producing ground. Do I have that right, sir or madam?

The rest of you last post is a non sequitur.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 02:17 PM

"What about the thousands dying of starvation in Sudan and Ethiopia.
Mugabe's killed 84? By Christ he's got to go a long way to catch Bush and Blair!"

I hope that you meant to space thse lines out. Sudan and Ethiopia are places where Bush has been asking for action, and calling it genocide while the UN does nothing... Sort of like the situation with Iraq in early 2003.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 02:43 PM

Was that Mugabe's killed 84 Akenaton? Or were you referring to the thousands he killed in Matabeleland in 1984? Ethnic cleansing undetraken with all the enthusiasm of a true Marxist.

Chorus from Rich Bridge and alanabit, "If it didn't work and wasn't perfect it couldn't have been socialism, we've been through this before." Bullshit all the trendy lefties after Lancaster House tumbling over themselves with joy after the demise of that evil "Smith Regime" and the victory of "Freedom Fighter - Bob".

Well Ian Smith was perfectly right - That twat Mugabe couldn't run a bottle party in a brewery, his cronies who he handed the farms out to couldn't even grow grass. What happened to all those poor people who were supposed to benefit from land distribution Ake? Guest Lox? Rich Bridge? Alanabit? Good old "socialist" carve up. Who was it? Oh yes Harold "bloody" Wilson who blocked people from having the right to buy their own council house, he I believe owned five houses at the time, great to be a socialist under that sort of regime but only if you're one of the pigs with your nose wedged firmly in the trough.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 03:11 PM

"It's tribal plain and simple."

That is true IN PART. However, the exploitation of Africa by various countries (England, Belgium, France, Germany, China, Holland and others) in the course of Africa's history has made tribal differences much more dynamic and the wars much more deadly.

A similar situation now exists in Canada and the US. When wars occurred between tribes, the loss of life was low. That was due to the weapons available and the philosophy of the warriors involved. Counting coup (touching the living body of an enemy was as prestigious as actually killing him--more so amongst the Sioux and Apache). Soon as ya introduce repeating rifles that all changes.

And it HAS changed very much in Africa. Today it not lever action Remingtons. Today it's AK 47s, C-4 or Semtex, RPGs and cell phones. And it should come as no surprise to anyone smart enough to breathe that GUESS WHAT?--Black leaders can be as corrupt as Yellow, Brown, Red and White leaders. The same damned industries are killing the same people all over the fucking world. Trying in ANY way to make this about colour is bullshit. It's about greed and the fact that 'Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely.' It's about manipulative bastards who could use a bad but brief headache. A very bad but brief headache.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 04:17 PM

Teribus - you have eyes. I suggest you use them.

Hans, before responding to my point read it.

The two of you are a couple of bitter ignorant old reactionaries.

And thankfully your day is fading.

Bye bye.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 04:41 PM

OK Teri - Wilson got a double first at uni and was the prime minister. Why do you think he should have lived in a council house? Why do you think councils should have to sell houses? They are there to be provided on non-profiteering terms to those who need them. Why do you think that when councils sell houses, they cannot use the money raised to build houses - to provide for those in need? You sound more of an arsehole every time you open your mouth.

If you don't know anything about socialism or marxism, shut up about it.

If you really believe that blacks cannot run businesses or countries, but only dance or jump, why not just put your hand up as a racist, and tell us what you think of Jews too?

Bigot.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 04:43 PM

Yes Guest lox, I've also got a memory, it was patently obvious what Mugabe's game was back then, and Ian Smith had his ticket marked from day one when he said of Mugabe's "election":

"One Man, One Vote, Once"

Well there may be many things one could say about Ian Smith, but liar ain't one of them - because that is exactly what Mugabe delivered from day one by intimidation, naked threat, unfettered violence and murder. Don't quite think he has matched Fidel Castro's tally (105,000) but, as far as Mugabe goes I suppose it is still "a work in progress".

Like me, Guest lox you probably have eyes too - I would suggest that you actually open them.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,Hans
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 06:18 PM

teribus, it is simply a waste of time attempting to talk to these people. I asked them several times to tell me which black country has successfully run a country (not run it into the ground) we all know that list. Every time you or I state the obvious, they run off at the mouth about racism or the Western world.

I will be frank and open and say here and now that NO African is capable of leading a responsible government in ANY African country. That isn't being racist, that is telling it how it is.

Let them nod their little heads from side to side behind a banner walking through Whitehall or type rubbish on their keypads, it will never come to anything.

I also respected Ian Smith. Do these morons above think they could live in any part of African without a wire compound around their home for their own safety ? I think not.

I repeat, shortly the begging bowls will be out on television screens. None of course will be for the white farmers who are losing their lives and farms.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 07:00 PM

Somewhere, somehow along the line, someone has read my repeated condemnation of mugabe and interpreted it as a commendation.

what smokescreens and untruths people will create to suppport their crumbling realities.

Bit like mugabe.

Hey teribus, you and I clearly don't agree, but respectfully, if I were you I would view with caution the pallishness with which Hans is toadying up to you.

Read what he says repeatedly: that Africans are incapable, subhuman, irresponsible by nature. Racially inclined and predisposed to failure.

I don't have much faith in much of your politics, but I don't believe you share that view.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 07:04 PM

Isn't it lovely how politics brings out the best in all of us? ;-)

Well, as Ali G always says at the end of every show...

"Respec'"

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 07:07 PM

Hans - I've hit the nail on the head about you.

you are either a deliberate shit stirrer or you are actually sad bitter white south african jaded about losing power to the blacks.

Either way, the fact that you would spend your time uttering such bilious nonsense ultimately marks you out as being the argumentative equivalent of 70's wallpaper .. tasteless and cheap but ultimateely easily ignored, torn down or ripped apart.

How does it feel to know that the next US president could easily be a black man?

Stick in yer craw?

Go burn a cross!

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,Crazyhorse
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 07:10 PM

"...should be barred from this discussion"

You just don't get it do you ake. You never did - you never will.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 07:12 PM

Ake,

you to have misread my posts.

I said the west has kept africa on it's knees and that is why monsters like mugabe HAVE been able to flourish as they have been able to use that anger to their advantage.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 07:26 PM

Teri.

The origins of a word are not always what is politically significant to them.

To white and black south africans, the word kaffir has a specific meaning and I was using it in that context.

The english word Negro is merely based on the spanish word for black.

But its use as the polite alternative to nigger in America marks it down in american history as representative of abuse.

So as the context I was using was that of south africa, I have no interest in the origins of te word kaffir. they are irelevant.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: pdq
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 08:16 PM

"The english word Negro is merely based on the spanish word for black."

Portugese, actually.

"...the polite alternative to nigger in America marks it down in american history as representative of abuse."

I used to here that word coming out of car speakers all the time, often at about 120 dB. I moved.

"...I have no interest in the origins of te word kaffir"

Kafir still comes from Arabic, even if someone does not like that fact. Arabs were the originators of the modern slave trade, not the English, BTW.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 08:28 PM

pdq.

The important word for you to look up is - "context"

If you wish to respond to my point please try and understand it first.

What I don't like is Hans' attitude, that all africans ... sorry he actually said blacks ... are incapable of management much less government.

He states that history proves blacks to be incapable of government and capable of nothing more than fighting and begging.

Do you agree with him?

Come on folks - who agrees with Hans?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 08:30 PM

I'm surprised he's been allowed to continue posting such a bluntly racist point of view on this forum.

And I am extremely surprised that my attack on him has been met with your picky response.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,Hans
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 08:34 PM

You are such as ass Lox. I again request you to provide proof of successful Africans in government. Exactly you can't.

I am a realist, you try living in Joburg. Would you allow your wife out in the car alone ? would you be happy letting your kids walk alone to catch the school bus ? Have you any idea of the number of street robberies each day on whites ? I expected silence from you and wasn't disappointed. You simply have no idea. Go onto the AWB website and read them.

As for your remark that a coloured man would soon be in the White House. He stands as much chance getting that position as a woman does.

Christ words fail me in reading the crap you write on this site. It is all well and good giving your lovely Waltons view of life. Get real and smell the reality of life, better still come over to see it for yourself and then vomit over your keypad.

I again request you to provide facts and figures of a successful black government in Africa. If you keep refusing to answer me I will accept your silence as loss of face.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: pdq
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 08:40 PM

GUEST,lox:

I do not have to agree with what GUEST,Hans says, but must afirm that he has the right to say it. You and Ake do not see things that way. Personally, I have more problem with your attitude than his.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 08:41 PM

it's the arabs fault we had slaves then ... is that your point pdq?

by the way ...

Spanish definition of Black

black [blæk]
I adjetivo
1   (color) negro,-a
    black and white, blanco,-a y negro,-a
    in black and white, por escrito
    the black sheep of the family, la oveja negra de la familia
    (café) solo,-a
    (ojo) morado,-a
    black and blue, amoratado,-a
2   (de raza) negro,-a
    a black singer, un cantante negro
3   oscuro,-a
    as black as pitch, (tan) oscuro,-a como boca de lobo
4   (poco alentador) it looks black, no tiene buena pinta
    things look black, las cosas se están poniendo feas
    to give sb a black look, ponerle mala cara a alguien
   
II nombre
1   (color) negro
2   (persona) negro,-a
   
III verbo transitivo
1   ennegrecer
2   (zapatos) lustrar
3   Pol boicotear




Is the area where you live a bit whiter?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 08:45 PM

"Do you honestly understand their culture ? Please give me the name of one country in Africa that has either made a successful go at independence or is capable of democracy ?"

Do you honestly understand democracy? You seem to think that all ya have to do is say, "You're free to run your own affairs." That's much like telling kids in a Grade 3 class that they can teach each other how to do things. Keriste.

Hans, you have chosen that guest name, but your locutions and diction are NOT African--Boer or otherwise. So cut the shit. As someone else pointed out, you seem to dislike Black people. THAT is your choice, and your loss and your business. But please keep your racist White supremist crap off this site.

And name one African country that has succeeded at democracy?

Here ya go, hotshot. Namibia, Botswana, Ghana, Mali, Benin, Senegal.

And on a personal note, fuck you!

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,hans
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 08:45 PM

note definition 2

a black singer. un cantante negro

about as specific to a person as you can get.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 08:47 PM

that last post was me not hans

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 08:52 PM

I don't think he's saying Africans are incapable.

Are you sure you're not guilty of a sort of inverted racism?

Consider the wars of the Roses, the English Civil war, The American Civil War - we didn't arrive at our democracies in five minutes and they had to be fought for, to maintain their existence. And in 1939-45, it as a close run run thing, as was the the Cold war.

The fact is you don't have to live on the African continent, as this man does, because its his home.

I only went to Africa once. It was enough. They are doing things their way, and it ain't our way and it involves a lot of very unnecessary suffering for innocent parties.

Hans has a thoroughly unpleasant way of putting it, but he's right. All we can do is make a donation occasionally and hope (without much expectation) that it will reach some of the needy people.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 08:53 PM

I think it's a losing proposition to argue with an idiot. He'll drag you to his level and beat you with experience. I do not have your way with words, lox. Never did have. Nor do I have time for racist shit on Mudcat. It's often sonme member posing as a guest because he's too damned ashamed to stae what he believes under his own name.

The reason I like Teribus is that he DOES post under his name. As does Ake. IMO, despite having politics that sometimes disagree with mine, they are in their own way good people, and certainly people I'd be friendly with in real life. This Hans character reminds me of kids who like to have folks at each other's throats. For him I have no more time. He's fulla shit, and that's all I am gonna say about it--having said 'fuck off' in an earlier post.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: pdq
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 08:53 PM

TIME OUT

Count to ten.

Relax.

BTW, I doubt that anyone here supports what Mugabe has done. See, we all agree. Really.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 08:57 PM

Counting to ten in lots of languages.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 08:58 PM

There are African languages in there, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 09:32 PM

"I don't think he's saying Africans are incapable."

WLD, I cut and paste the following comment from one of hans posts.

"I will be frank and open and say here and now that NO African is capable of leading a responsible government in ANY African country"

pdq

I'm with you - counting to ten - no stress.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 09:35 PM

sorry folks

that was me again

being slack with handle

to avoid confusion I will make sure I log in.

I won't be posting as a guest any more.

Any confusion on that point should be referred to this post.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 09:41 PM

For the record, I see politics as full of paradoxes.

one is that I believe in freedom ... but not the freedom to subvert other peoples freedom.

Another is that I believe in equality, but that includes equality of oportunity ... so people need to be allowed to pursue happiness in their own way.

In the context of this thread, I believe in the freedom of expression, but not when it comes from a politicl standpoint that ultimately would limit expression to a select minority.

I do not believe in giving attention to racism or giving racists a platform.

Interestingly, i haven't said anyone should be shut up, merely expressing surprise that the moderators haven't taken the initiative themselves to keep an eye on this guy.

I see no ambiguity in his comments and I'm grateful to peace for backing me up on this.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: pdq
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 09:55 PM

For the record, no Mudcatter works harder to bring life to this place (as a member, that is) than Bruce Murdoch. He still has a little problem blowing up at people, but that's how he is. He's also an underated songwriter. Like all of us, he should be allowed to say what he thinks. That's why the 1st Amendment was first, not fifth or sixth.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 10:24 PM

It is contrary to current perceived wisdom to say that a person is incapable of this or that or more likely to be capable of this or that simply by reason of their racial origin. I wonder what Hans thinks of Jews, Poles, Gypsies, the Irish, Asians and Orientals. I am fairly shocked by his bare-faced assertion that Africans are somehow inferior, and I thought I remembered that Eysenk and more recent scientists who had proposed that some races were more or less intelligent than others had been refuted (in the true sense of the word)

Nonetheless it is a fact that the Inuit are more likely to be short, and Nilotics (but not Bushmen) to be tall. It isn't so long ago that in the USA Jews were widely thought to be inherently better dancers and sportsmen than non-Jews. Assumptions that I made in the 60s and 70s that differences in behaviour between men and women were due solely to nurture and not to nature are not so widely accepted today.

The area is one in which to tread with care.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 11:13 PM

Peace made mention of a half dozen countries in Africa which he considered reasonably run. That's a good start.

I would add Tanzania to Peace's list, and go on to say that it has been reasonably governed since its independence in the early 1960's. It's not a rich country but they seem to make do with their resources, and they have no record of civil war, tribal raids and retributions; they did cross over the border once into Uganda and chased Ide Amin out of that country, and then withdrew after a short period of occupation. The island of Zanibar tried to break away at some point and some might allege that their national aspirations were unfairly suppressed. Not a bad record by World standards.

But I also agree that far too many African countries have squandered their resources to the benefit of a small elite, and played one tribe against another, or invaded their neighbors or supported civil strife beyond their borders. And sometimes they have functioned as proxies for the big industrial countries, as is demonstrated by Ethiopia's invasion of Somalia, only to find themselves immersed in a never-ending war.

I must say that I find much of the discussion above abusive rather than informative. I'm not surprised that many of us have only a shallow understanding of history in Africa since the rise of independent states from 1960 on; many of us are totally ignorant of Africa's pre-colonial history. But what I do find appalling and offensive is the willingness of some to generalize from such shallow understanding.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 02:55 AM

We don't all agree!
Other than that Mr Mugabe appears to have lost touch with reality.

The crux of the matter to me, is that we have contaminated every primitive society we have encountered.
It is our society and economic system which is doing all the damage to the environment.
Hans says that "No African is fit to run a responsible govt in any African country"

What he is really saying is that Western style capitalism is unworkable in a tribal or ethnic culture.
I would agree with that statement and think it a very good thing.
It of course means that we are unable to organise and exploit the people and the resourses, but that too is a good thing.
Where ever we have come into contact with real people leading real lives, we have tried to mould them in our own likeness.
But remember in another century ..or less, the only survivors of humanity will be the primitives........So stop talking shit and start learning what life is all about.



For the second time in years I agree with pdq...Brucie is all heart and brain.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 03:21 AM

Don't be silly Ake, of course he's not. He is saying what he is saying - that Africans are inferior.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,Hans
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 04:09 AM

I say it as I see it. It is the government of a country who is responsible for it's people. I repeat neither Mugabe or anyone else in that country will ever make a go of it. Well at least they can be sure of a few donations to their inevitable requests for handouts from one or two of the above. It is not the answer. Tribes there need to sort out the problem in the way they have done for generations. We can't stick a credit card in their hand and say welcome to our democracy.

It's tribal, plain and simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: alanabit
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 05:06 AM

"From: Teribus - PM
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 05:58 PM

The measures to be taken are not sanctions aimed at Zimbabwe. The actions that should be taken are aimed at stripping Mugabe and his ZANU-PF cohorts of their ill-gotten gains, rob them of their wealth. The sanctions should also be levelled at any country giving Mugabe's regime any sort of legitimacy whatsoever, they then have a rather stark choice to make, prop up a thief and a murderer, or stand with the rest of the international community.

I heard a report that Australia has already withdrawn educational/school priveleges for children of Zimbabwe's ruling ZANU-PF elite and requested that they return home. I have seen no confirmation of this, but it sends home the right sort of signal."


As it happens, I agree with every word of that post. It is one of the sanest to appear on this thread. Unfortunately for myself and the left leaning people here, Teribus is unwilling to recognise a distinction between socialism and theft. That is his right and and what he truly believes, which I must respect. In the event, it's a red herring here anyway. No one is disputing that Mugabe is a thief and thug. That is enough reason to look forward to his downfall.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Charley Noble
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 09:31 AM

Hans-

I am curious. What primitive tribe do you come from? Or are you just another troll?

Charley Noble of Lithuanian, Romanian, Hungarian and Californian extraction

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: pdq
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 09:52 AM

Those California extractions can sometimes be painful.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Azizi
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 10:36 AM

For the record, thank you Lox, Peace, Charley Noble, and alanabit for your comments on this thread and elsewhere on this forum.

I also agree with pdq's 25 Jun 08 - 09:55 PM post.

I'm not going to add other comment to this thread because those posters whose names I have listed have said what I want to say better than I could-including the comments telling GUEST hans what he should do to himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,Hans
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 11:00 AM

Ostrich's come to mind when I read the above posts.

Why can't you see that no amount of intervention from the Western world will ever make a pence of difference. Yes putting your hand in your pocket after a weepy ad on television may deal with your inner guilt.

Can any of seriuosly think that we can change tribal laws and traditions ? Some have been banging on through the decades that the west must do more. Tell me what lasting difference has money raised by Eric Clapton and George Harrison through to Live Aid honestly done ?

It stuck a plaster on a wound that needed stitching. Remove one tinpot dictator in any of these countries and within a year another pops up.

So why do the Prime ministers and Presidents in the civilised world not get involved ? because they know the traditions within tribes and centuries of tradition CANNOT be changed.

Christ I never saw such an amount of gullible people on one site.
I recommend some of you go out there and see the place before you make silly comments not worth reading. What the hell would a guy living in a wilderness in Canada know about Africa ? Only some half baked media reports from reporters with over active imaginations.

I repeat we CANNOT change these people, we CAN accept and understand them.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 01:52 PM

A friend of mine, long since dead, born in Bombay, who worked all his life first on the east coast of Africa and then latterly before he retired over on the west coast. He put Africa's ills down to tribalism in just the same terms that Guest Hans has.

With Smith gone in Zimbabwe historically there was absolutely no way that the Matabele would ever suffer government under the Shona. Mugabe knew that as did Nkomo, that is why killing and clearing the Matabele was the first thing Mugabe a Shona did once he was in power.

Tell me in SA's early days did Inkata (A Zulu organisation) fight ANC - same thing.

100 Up

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 05:49 PM

One example of the way the west has ridden roughshod over africa is the way they divided countries up and where the state lines were drawn and how much attenion they paid to where nationalities lived and therefore where actual nations were, with the result that nationalities (tribes) with a history of animosity were lumped together, while other tribes were split by state lines.

Yet in ghana, ashanti, ewe, fanti and ga live together peacefully and are proud of their Ghanaian identity ...

And there are plenty of other examples of other countries where this is the case.

Peace - I disagree, I think Hans is Afrikaans.

I don't think he is flaming or trolling but believes what he is saying.

Whites in south africa do indeed live in electric fence surrounded enclaves in carefully isolated compounds.

You don't stop at traffic lights at night or you risk getting carjacked, and if that happens to you, being allowed to live isn't always the best alternative.

White people in SA live a Mad Max type of existence, zooming through the badlands from the all inclusive safety of the mall to the security of the house.

The culture of the white south african community in south africa is in my experience more often than not characterised by a seige mentality with an attitude of contempt towards blacks.

Many seem to be in total denial about the fact that while politically there may be legal equality, economic apartheid effectively remains and when asked to comment on easily visible examples of this can be very defensive.

I have also met many who appear willfully blind to the legacy of apartheid and the collective long term psychological damage it caused ... something which the truth and reconciliation process has attempted intelligently and sensetively to tackle ...

But the real giveaway is hans description of mixed race Obama as coloured.

An interesting fact about the Afrikaaners ethnic background, is that they descend not just from dutch flemish and scottish origins, but also from Indian, Malay and indigenous african Khoikhoi people, which makes them by their own definition ... erm ...

... well what was obama again ... ?

... Ah yes ... Coloured.

Never underestimate the power of denial.

Or as I said in a previous post ...

"what smokescreens and untruths people will create to suppport their crumbling realities."



... but seriously ...


The problems of Africa are tribal not political?

The problems of the middle east are religious not political?

The problems of Ireland are religious not political?

Hey ... wait a minute ...

McGuinness and Paisley shook hands ...

There was a political solution in northern Ireland after all.

John Hume was right ... it was a political problem after all ...

Hmmm ... Maybe generalizing about "types" is a load of nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Lox
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 05:51 PM

Drat ... forgot to log in.

I have now though so no more guest tag tonight at least.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,Hans
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 06:28 PM

My wife refers to me as "Cape Dutch" Lox !

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Lox
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 07:24 PM

Hans,

With that one post you have made me regret my harsh words.

I respect your honesty.

Let me make it clear that I still absolutely abhor your comments on blacks.

But I have an understanding of why you make them.

I understand what a crazy tenuous existence your race is experiencing.

Brought up to hold the views you espoused earlier in the thread, you have suddenly seen "normality" turned on its head.

And in the process you have found yourselves very vulnerable.

You are African.

Of that there is no doubt.

but your tenure on africa is growing weaker by the day.

And you can't go "back" to europe, because you aren't european.

You too are victims of the legacy of apartheid.

The challenge you need to overcome is to realise that Apartheid has ultimately betrayed you and that your forefathers ultimately left you in the s**t by not finding a way of developing a more democratic system of government.

Once you realise that and come to terms with the fact that your unfounded inherited understanding of blacks is wrong, you may be able to try the next stage of reconciliation which will involve working with rather than despite your Black African brothers.

I grew up in Hong Kong when it was a British colony.

It was an efffectively segregated society too.

I left in 1991.

It was my childhood home for 15 years.

I will never live there again unless you count the odd 2 week stay as a tourist.

It's not easy when you are a foreigner everywhere.

But the world changes and in this case it really was for the better.

It will be a messy process, but attitudes about racial stereotypes will only serve as obstacles and enflame resentments further.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Lox
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 07:32 PM

On Topic ...

That has nothing to do with Mugabe who is nobody's brother.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: alanabit
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 04:00 AM

...well, there are always thieves and murderers of course, into whose brethren he is well qualified to enter...

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 05:16 AM

alanabit,

you've seen how much tolerance i have for racism.

But that cuts both ways and I will not put all germans in the same bag for allowing the holocaust, nor will I call all British imperialist thieves for their complicity with global colonization over the centuries, nor will I lump all americans in with george bush nor all black africans with Mugabe.

If ever a race of people were indoctrinated it was the Afrikaaners. Generation after Generation were lied to by their predecessors and grew up with the "knowledge" that Blacks need to be governed by whites or they wiill descend into tribal chaos.

We have all shown sympathetic interest in the past in Wolfgang when he has spoken about growing up in Nazi Germany.

We have all expressed understanding for those who were brainwashed in the Hitler youth.

Well in terms of indoctrination, the Hitler youth had it easy by comparison. When your parents grandparents and great grandparents have passed a political viewpoint down through the generations and it has taken root in you to the extent that you understand it to be self evident, it is going to be deeply traumatising to wake up one morning to discover it was all a lie.

The sun rises in the morning and sets at night. It comes out again after a storm and blacks need to be treated like endemically badly behaved teenagers, for whom the only explanation needed is six of the best with a big stick.

That Blacks are inferior is nonsense.

And where this claim is made it must be challenged.

That Afrikaaners are as needy of understanding and reconciliiation as the rest of us is however of fundamental importance to the future of south africa.

And here's another Irony ... they too can't go on being "victims" but need to take responsibility for their future.

South Africa is a potentially great country. It's national anthem symbolizes very movingly just how.

I have nothing but the best of wishes for ALL Africans.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: alanabit
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 06:25 AM

I agree with every word. To me, Mugabe is not a "Marxist" thug, or an "African thug". He is simply a thug. We have had them in all societies at all stages of history. A successful society is one, which keeps them out of power. Mugabe's regime will eventually go the way of all other tyrannies. The day will come - probably sooner rather than later - when it is in no one's interest to sustain it. Relieving him and his and his cronies of their ill gotten loot will hasten that day.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Azizi
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 06:27 AM

I have nothing but the best of wishes for ALL Africans
-lox

lox, I'd like to make a friendly ammendment to your statement.

I'd like to change it to read "I have nothing but best wishes for All people throughout the world".

**

For individuals who because of their history, because of past or present socialization, or for whatever reasons continue to regard racial, ethnic, religious, or any other groups of people as less than human or as less than themselves, my best wishes is that these individuals truly recognize the montrous error of those beliefs, and do whatever it takes throughout their lives to eradicate those toxic beliefs.

My best wishes for those individuals so described are also that they work however and whereever they can to remove legal, institutional, and/or social barriers to fair, equitable, and culturally competent services for and treatment of all people in their community, region, and nation, if not for all people throughout the world.   

Also, my best wishes for those individuals who had been treated unjustly as a group or as individuals in the past-and who may still be treated unjustly in the present, are that these individuals use whatever power they may gain wiser than others did in the past. My best wishes is that they recognize themselves in others, and that they also work to remove legal, institutional, and social barriers to fair equitable, and culturally competent services for and treatment of all people. In so doing, those individuals and groups who were formerly oppressed would recognize the terrible consequences of mistreating those who mistreated them, less they cause another long or short cycle of injustice.

**

Coming from a similar background as Black Zimbabweans and of Colored {Coloured} Zimbabweans, I believe that all persons living in those countries have some serious work to do-to understand themselves and others, and to build a equitable nation for themselves and all of their children and all their children's children and onward.

If they succeed in doing so or if they fail, either way, it seems to me, they have much to teach the world.

-Azizi,
who is African American and who speaks only for herself and not for any other or all other African Americans {formerly known as "Colored people" and certainly not for any other Black people or Colored {Coloured} people throughout the world.

Ps.
I admit to knowing very little about past and present day Zimbabwe. The only personal experience I have had with Zimbabwe was indirectly more than thirty years ago, though meeting and befriending as best I could a Black {Coloured?} Zimbabwe woman. For one semester this young woman attended the college in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania where I worked as the "minority student advisor" {which really meant "advisor to Black students {by "Black" I mean the USA definition}. Unfortunately, that student was unable to continue going to school in the USA because she couldn't access any money from home.

I often think of that young woman, and I often pray that all is well with her and with her family {which means that I pray that things change astronomically for the better for all people within that nation}.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 06:33 AM

I am interested to see that allegedly Africans cannot give up their traditions. Fascinating when the English cannot remember or respect theirs.

You see, I can get "What is folk" in almost anywhere...

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,Hans
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 12:33 PM

Thanks Lox. I lived in the Northern suburbs, Regions 2. Beautiful place but the level of crime around the city is terrible.

Personally I can never see integration and reconciliation in South Africa. Despite any of you wanting to hear it,the truth that tribal hatred is the cancer that ravages through this beautiful country. The way in which they deal with each other is horrific. Machete law and car tyres filled with petrol placed around sometimes neck is reality. Tribal leaders have a powerful influence on the way people think, talk and behave. Constructions of "race" and "racial" or ethnic identity are complex and tend to be rooted in notions of "natural" cultural difference. Land and access to land further complicate this fault line, thus becoming a critical potential source of tension.

The detonation of this disastrous time bomb has happened, believe me.
The majority of people in this country, who have tasted the bitter pill of violence still hope and expect decisive steps and programmes to end it, sadly it will never come.

I would like to add, there is racism among coloureds in South African among each other. It's not just black and white.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 02:55 PM

"Constructions of "race" and "racial" or ethnic identity are complex and tend to be rooted in notions of "natural" cultural difference"

I think this comment pertains to just about every "nation" on the planet and underpins far too many conflicts - serbians, croats and kosovans - chinese japanese and koreans - kurds turks and armenians - scots and picts - normans and saxons - whites and blacks - muslims jews and christians ...

... ooops hold on ... getting confused with religion ...

I like your use of the word "notions".

I like the depth of that whole sentence.

Perhaps we should form a united notions. (sorry)

Thanks for trusting us Hans.



For the record,

Something which many people argue in debates like this where reconciliation is an essential factor, is that it is impossible for some people to agree and they will never be willing partners in common institutions.

I know of one example of a concept that everyone agrees on and which is understood by everyone and which forms the basis of a commonly agreed institution that everyone is bound by.

Without agreement it would not exist as it only exists in the abstract. It is not concrete in any way yet it is the essential binding glue that holds society together whilst also being capable of causing huge divisions.

It only exists because we agree it does.

(scroll down)





















Money!

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 01:20 PM

Well, demonstrating once again Truth, Justice and the Zimbabwean Way, Robert Mugabe has 'won' another sham election. It is official.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 03:44 PM

Oh well done.

Gosh isn't he clever.

Remarkable man really.

Hurrah.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 04:15 PM

Mmmm Rhodesia........2 words come to mind......in reverse order...bunnies and jungle!

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 09:38 PM

Mugabe's days are numbered small. It won't be long before some of his military people decide to take him out so they can appease international opinion and continue to feather their own nest. Whether they are swept away in the unrest that follows is open to question.

Hans-

I'm willing to assume that you know more about the Black on Black violence in South Africa than I do, and I'm sure there are neighborhoods even in Cape Town where it would not be safe for you or I to go without a strong group of friends. As an outsider I do find reason for optimism that the official policy of the South African Government is reconciliation, however imperfect the results may be. The alternative, continued apartheid, seems indefensible to me and I would have expected greater bloodbath if apartheid had continued to be the rule. Do you disagree? I wish you well but I also wish you would acknowledge the injustice that was done for centuries against the Black peoples of South Africa. Most of us in the States are willing to acknowledge our role in subjugating Black Africans within a slave economy. And our goal should be to work ourselves toward a more free and just nation for all.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,Hans
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 03:51 AM

Charley, there is truth in what you say, I cannot disagree with you,it really is a mess and there will never be a solution in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: alanabit
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 04:05 AM

I don't think anyone expects a perfect solution Hans. I believe that imperfect people (black and white) will work towards an imperfect solution, which will at any rate be an improvement on the current situation.
If you bear in mind the bitterness in Ireland and the Balkans over the past thirty years, it is enormous progress that they currently have a little stability. We like to think that peace agreements and nogotiated settlements solve the problems forever. In fact they are just steps on the way to whatever else is emerging. I don't think I want to see the process stop though. We have lived to see the end of the Viet Nam War, the Cold War, the Ireland conflict and the Iran/Iraq war. New monsters have inevitably raised their heads, but that is no reason to give up on progress now.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Lox
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 06:53 AM

Hey Hans,

Something else that john hume of Northern Ireland used to say when arguing the need for a political solution ...

"What is the alternative?"

Beware of self fulfilling prophecies.

As for strong groups of friends - if you walk in to the wrong part of johannesburg with a large group of friends you'll just be presenting richer pickings.

There was a BBC interview recently with a gang in a township - I've forgotten which one - the investigative journalist asking the questions was John Simpson.

The film crew left after about 5 minutes because the gang had started discussing how much they could get for the cameras.

They're armed to the teeth and if there are more of you it'll just result in more people getting killed.

It's a terribly sad reality but it can be changed for the better.

I think it needs a more decisive leader than Mbeki though. He mkes Gordon Brown look passionate and dynamic by comparison.


"Jungle Bunnies"

Yes I remember that term of abuse too. A british one in my experience. There are very few British left who would use that term unless in the most ironic way.

It's so dated that its impact as a term of abuse is laughable, conjuring up images of sad witless BNP supporters instead.

... *sigh* ...

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 08:27 AM

Some of my historical perceptions of the Boar wars in South Africa were revised by transcribing the jingoistic youthful poetry of Cicely Fox Smith who followed the last campaign avidly, commemorating each battle with a poem while never acknowledging that there might be more than a British side to the issue of truth and justice. Her war poems in World War 1 were similarly one-sided, characterizing the Germans as ruthless subhumans.

War is inherently ruthless, and civil war is inherently uncivil! To understand it's root causes, one really needs to know more about the political leadership of the warring countries or factions, the economy they are operating in, and their history.

Lox-

I've been thinking about re-visiting Ethiopia, where I taught in the Peace Corps in the early 1960's. Whether I go or not will involve a careful weighing of what the political situation appears to be. I have no interest in endangering the lives of former students (those who have survived), no interest in becoming a hostage or being murdered in some dark alley or rural road. The window for such a re-visit opens and closes very rapidly, but it may be reopening for a period this fall. It's much safer by far to gaze at the landscape via Google-Earth, and just wonder!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,Hans
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 08:44 AM

We are dealing with so many factions here it will be very difficult to get all to agree with any solution put on the table. It is centuries old, believe me.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Lox
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 01:27 PM

But they all have one thing in common - they don't want to see their friends and family murdered, tortured, starving etc.

Paranoia is the demon to exorcise. Noone trusts anyone else.

Noone trusts seemingly empty asurances that seem ultimately to bear no fruit.

Blacks are saying "we thought life was supposed to get better for us when apartheid was removed. We thought we would become enfranchised and our quality of life would be improved"

Whites are sayin "see - just look at them - we told you this is how it would be - they're savages"

The thing for you hans is to find initiatives that are going on and critically learn about them and if you fnd one that is explained to your satisfaction, get behind it.

The emphasis has to be on leadership and initiative and working hard to give people real practical reasons to feel that it isn't stupid or naive to be optimistic.

community projects encouraging enterprise - not just in wealthy white areas but in the more challenging areas.

Investment in projects and enterprises that can help the commuinty regain a sense of self esteem and encourage peoples hopes and aspirations.

Lobbying to encourage a crackdown on corruption in government and public services.

In India the Caste system was outlawed with varying levels of success and with varying measures of consequence, but it still serves as evidence of how it is possible to tackle deep seated cultural prejudice.

A clear strategy to deal with the short term threats posed by the gangs - bearing in mind that this kind of stuff is a symptom of disenfranchisement and poverty.

what else ... I dunno - I typed that at 100 miles an hour - the point is that you have to start somewhere and you have to start with belief.

You have to set realistic goals and work step by step towards a better future.

It may take 25 years in SA or 15 in Zimbabwe, but it CAN happen!

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 02:10 PM

16 Tons

Go to the polls
and what do you get
another armed soldier
who beats you to death

Tell St Peter
that I can't go
I owe my soul to
Mugabe's state store.

This election
takes after George Bush
yet without elect tronics
the election is crushed

Tell the whole world
that Mugabe's lost
but he won't leave office
were all double crossed

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 02:19 PM

Today at the African Union conference Mugabe quicklu announced that he would be taken careful not of any dirty fingers that are pointed at him.


in other words, many of the leaders there are in office because of very undemocratic methods. he will rat them out if they rat him out.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 05:13 PM

Well then lets hope they have the bottle to be seen doing the right thing despite any minor political damage it might cause them personally.

The benefits must surely outweigh the drawbacks - even in terms of reputation.

I think everyone overestimates his power including himself and they should refuse as a block to be blackmailed.

They should be less worried about dirty fingers and more about dirty noses!

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 08:24 AM

Well so much for the African Union, they really showed him, in all probability the reaction will be the same from the EU and from the UN, and life will go on, or not in the case that you live in Zimbabwe.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 09:45 AM

I expect better of the UN and the EU, Teribus. But there's something else that worries me: On a number of newspaper websites (which is where I get my news these days) the "readers' comments" that follow each article show a great number of people taking the attitude "if the Africans can't sort out their own business, then I will think twice before donating/volunteering etc next time there is a call for help from them"...

It's totally the wrong attitude of course, as it is likely to penalise the poorest for the inadequacies of their leaders, but I see a rising tide of opinion that looks ugly.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: pdq
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 09:53 AM

"I expect better of the UN and the EU..."

Why? Their track record is dismal when it comes to anything important. The UN is best at gathering huge amounts of money and giving it to themselves and their friends. No need for such leaders to upset such a good thing by attacking tyrants.That could get a bit messy, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 09:57 AM

Call me idealist, pdq; but the EU and the UN have at least been more vocal in their condemnation (than the African Union). I think they were right to stand back and give the AU a chance, which the latter has squandered, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 10:04 AM

Pdq-

"The UN is best at gathering huge amounts of money and giving it to themselves and their friends"

You may be correct but you may also just be repeating the kind of cynical nonsense that undercuts the efforts of a lot of very dedicated and well-trained staff. Wouldn't it be better to direct some criticism at the wealthy nations who pledge hundreds of millions of dollars and then don't follow through on their pledges? I think a better case could be made for doing that.

Charley Noble, more cynical than you could ever imagine

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: pdq
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 10:14 AM

"Wouldn't it be better to direct some criticism at the wealthy nations who_________"

There is no shortage of such criticism, belive me. I am trying for some balance. Just think of the good Kofi Anan could have done if he were a man of high principle. Instead, he diverted 3 billion dollars from the mis-named Oil For Food program and gave most to his African friends. Lots to himself too, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Lox
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 03:15 PM

George,

"but I see a rising tide of opinion that looks ugly."

I share this view.

Let us not be hasty in jumping to conclusions, but I harbour a fear that the current economic climate, combined with the current political swing in the UK away from the left, may result in some of the uglier right wingers who have kept their heads below the surface so to speak, coming out of their closets and espousing all sorts of crass perspectives on issues like this.

(Excuse my mixing of metaphors there - unless you like the image of the sea being full of drifting closets each containing a partially submerged right winger all about to wash up on the shore ... I thought not ...)

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 04:25 PM

Lox-

Oh, I don't know. I might even make a song up with what you've provided.

"When you starve with a closet shark, the closet shark starves last!"

You may quote me!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 04:56 PM

All well and good if the money given by individual charitable donation or by Governments in the form of overseas development aid actually ever gets through to those who actually need it.

I would venture to guess that very little of it ever does. So whether donations are curtailed, which remains to be seen, it will make very little difference on the ground as it were.

One thing of course should happen with any aid package in the future, and that is that from now on they come with strings firmly attached, they are to be administered by the donor country, not one penny is placed where any of these robbing thugs can get their hands on it, and the programmes dispensing this aid come with full publicity that:

"This aid is brought to you by the government and people of ...........(Insert name of donor country)"

I feel that Zimbabwe is beyond help, Mugabe and his cohorts will tear it apart just as Pol Pot attempted to tear apart Cambodia in order to rebuild it in whatever image is required.

South Africa will go the same way, the process is already a great deal further down the track than many think. The two countries in that region that may well fully realise their potential are Angola (potentially the richest country in the world) and Mozambique, both of which have already gone through the birth pains quite some time ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 06:04 PM

Excuse me MrT, but exactly what do you mean by...."fully realise their potential".....or have you just lapsed into "politicianspeak" again?....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,Hans
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 07:39 PM

There are some people don't seem to like the comments Teribus and I have made on this thread. I am not going to knock any of you for it, but I fully agree with the comments Teribus has contributed to the thread. He has proven to be a realist.

Does overseas aid make it to those who need it? the simple answer is No. There is more frustration among relief workers in South Africa than anywhere else. I met two(here in England)not while in SA.

They said most of the aid is channelled through government departments and the militias are fed from it first. They hold vase stockpiles of everything, including clothing, bedding and medical supplies. Only a fraction reaches it's intended target and that goes to those who support the government. If your hungry, you soon change your allegiance. They said it was rumoured that considerable quantities of aid was actually sold by the militias to neighbouring countries.

Not exactly what any of you that contributed expected.

Slam the ass of me if you wish, but nothing will ever change in Zimbabwe. Mugabe has his followers (not all of them live in fear). If he was whacked in the morning there would be another one to take his place.

I understand so many of you live in hope and speak in a logical sense with reference to Ireland and other countries that took the course of democracy instead of the use of the gun. It simply doesn't work like that out there. I know some of the unconventional parties in Ireland may have nudged the odd postal vote their direction, but they didn't visit areas the weeks leading up to the elections and hack their point across with machetes.

Tribal influence is strong in SA. You will never see an overseas government become involved in their politics at ground level. They would get nowhere and never get out.

Say what you wish about my dim view of the situation, but it's how it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 10:09 PM

I do agree with Terribus that Angola and Mozambique show positive signs of emerging from their uncivil wars. Both countries have rich mineral resources that could fuel economic growth and their recent elections demonstrated respect for the democratic process.

Of course, South Africa under its previous administration played a key role in prolonging the civil wars in both countries, and the Soviet Union, China, as well as the United States were all actively involved in supporting the three opposing factions in Angola.

I'm encouraged that both countries have managed achieve so much in recent years.

I do wonder if the UN aid programs are as poorly administered as Terribus and Hans suggest. I don't know and it's all too easy to critique major international programs because of examples of local corruption. I'm more interested in the general pattern.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 01:40 PM

Funny, but i found myself agreeing with much of what teribus had to say in both his last posts.

And I have also found myself listening to what hans has to say.

Both have identified problems that need to be overcome.

I am istening now because both are engaging with the isssue rather than just casting aspersions about political stereotypes on the one hand or racial stereotypes on the other.

I think if hans had a chance to step outside the perspective he is wrapped up in he might see that the siege mentality amongst South African Whites, both "British" and "Afrikaans" is not just a matter of attitude or a practical approach to security, but derives from inherited misperceptions of Africans in the first place.

But more relevantly, on the point of investment and initiative, South African business is deeply conservative.

I am informed that in south africa broadband is so expensive that it is cheaper to fly to Hong Kong and download software in an internet cafe than it is to download it using a personal broadband connection.

I am curious to know if Hans is on broasband or dial up ...

The wealthy parts of South Africa are technologically advanced enough for this not to be the case, yet if you check out a website for your average SA business you find that e.commerce is woefully underdeveloped.

The reason for this is a stubborn self preserving change resisting mindset.

Black involvement in commerce in south africa is increasing at a snails pace as there are big incentives for businesses who are prepared to work with black partners or do business with black traders.

But generally white businesses are very suspicious of involving or doing business with blacks as a direct result of the view that blacks aren't capable of "organizing a piss up in a brewery" to use a british colloquialism.

The money is in the white areas, and so are the international contacts. There are areas of praetoria and other cities where you can walk around and not see hide nor hair a black person.

If you do, it is instantly assumed that they are there to steal something.

Sadly, because Whites have made sure there is no other possible reason why they could be there, it is often true.


what is my point ... ahh yes ...

Imagination ...

Innovation ...

Thinking outside the box ...



If white south africans wish to have a future in Africa, they need to break the siege mentality for their own sake. You cannot just put the wagons in a ring and ride the storm.

It's the ring of wagns that will be their downfall.

They have to look for opportunities and learn to move with the times.

And learn to work with each other trustfully (British and Afrikaans as well as blacks asians and coloureds.)

interesting to note that the chinese have recently managed to have themselves categorized as blacks as it gives them advantages in business. If white south africans had the same sense of adventure as the chinese they might just be able to assist in the creating a more positive future for themselves and their multicoloured brethren.

Let me guess hans, british south africans just can't handle meat the way you afrikaaners can eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 01:57 PM

I think that Teribus and Hans are both being quite realistic about the situation over there.

I know a number of white South Africans who regretfully finally left the land of their birth which they loved dearly and moved to Canada, simply because life got way too dangerous in South Africa. After having survived violent incidents and nearly losing their lives, they decided they had to get out.

If I was in their place, I'd have done the same...though I would certainly hate to have to flee my own country.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 05:22 PM

Has Mugabe signed the impeach GWB petition?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 05:28 PM

Hans,

just twigged that you're in the uk ...

"It simply doesn't work like that out there"

That is exactly what the brits used to say about the Irish.



It is a political problem with a political solution.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 07:17 PM

Oh, there are always potential solutions to endemic problems in any country. The question is, are the people in positions of power there willing to employ those solutions and initiate positive changes...or would they rather just continue doing what they are already accustomed to doing?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 06:25 PM

Well so much for the UN

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7502965.stm

Although I must admit, I didn't really expect anything else from this useless talking shop, lets here it for the UN, Russia and China, you certainly won't hear any vocal comdemnation of them on this Forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: alanabit
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 06:41 PM

I do not think anyone will be surprised to see Russia and China unwilling to condemn the thug Mugabe. Mind you, who are we to condemn China when politicians of all political colours have toadied up so disgustingly to the butchers of Tiannemen Square? As long as Mugabe at least mouths "left wing" slogans, he will be safe from any condemnation by China. Of course, there could be business interests too... very "left wing"...

I wonder if the US and Britain might suddenly become interested in the human rights situation in Saudi Arabia if they were suddenly to have a "left wing" revolution? Just food for thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 07:25 PM

That organization is as irrelevent as (you know what) on Boar.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 04:03 AM

The whole Western economic system in meltdown and you're still whininng about Mugabe!
Left alone, and I mean without Western sanctions and Western iterference, the situation will sort itself out.

The whole affair is being hyped to divert attentioin from what is about to happen in UK/US.

Nationalise the banks and mortgage companies??......Well well Teribus, looks like we're going to be the "New Commies"....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Emma B
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 05:30 AM

'South Africa welcomed the decision of the United Nations Security Council not to impose sanctions against Zimbabwe, foreign affairs said today.
Spokesman Ronnie Mamoepa said SA voted against the draft resolution yesterday, in accordance with the African Union (AU) Summit of head of states
The AU summit in Egypt had appealed to states and all parties concern to refrain from any action that could negatively impact on the climate for dialogue.'

from todays S.A.Times

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 06:27 AM

But according to all reports EmmaB the sanctions weren't against Zimbabwe were they? The sanctions were targeted against and would only affect Robert Mugabe personally and the leaders of ZANU-PF. I shall remember your ringing endorsement of this great and newly elected "Marxist Socialist" Leader - a view not shared by the people of Zimbabwe, but I am sure that you EmmaB know much better.

"Left alone, and I mean without Western sanctions and Western iterference, the situation will sort itself out." - Akenaton

Yes my little heilan' anarchist the situation will no doubt indeed sort itself out, just as it did in Rwanda and the Democratic Republic of Congo and just as it is in the process of "sorting itself out" in Darfur and in Burma. But remember this Akenaton and all the other fellow travelers, particularly alanabit, take a good look at whose hands are involved and who stands to gain most from this shoddy trail of human suffering - Each and every one with their rock solid "socialist/communist/left-wing" credentials pushed to the fore, all complete and utter cant and hypocrisy of course but that is what it always is, that is what "socialism" always has been - One big massive con. While studying the areas of abject suffering in the world today, take a good look at how often Russia and China crop up in the mix - Then take a damn good look at what their international aid contributions are, then remember that for every 60 people on this planet there is one AK-47 courtesy of those "communist" regimes Akenaton and others so much admire.

When Dianavan, and others on this Forum, go off into their little pet rants about "big bad western oil companies" and all of Bush's supposed "oil-friends" - Lump them all together and they control less than 7% of the global oil industry, all the rest is owned nationally. Now tell me who is it that benefits from maintaining a high price of crude oil per barrel again?

"The whole Western economic system in meltdown" - Really Akenaton? I somehow doubt it, but your dire prediction? Take a good look back through time Akenaton, how many times has that been predicted before? We've had booms before and we've had recessions, everything on this earth cyclical.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: alanabit
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 07:50 AM

Teribus, I can't help it if thugs and thieves choose to wear the clothes of fake socialists. Neither can any other decent socialist. The term "decent socialist" will inevitably seem like an oxymoron to you. It puzzles me, because you are in no more danger from me than you are from your milkman. Most of us make judgements on what people do rather than what they say.
I have a good friend, who says things, which do not reflect the way he behaves in the slightest. He is one of the kindest men I know. It seems to be an article of faith with you that any socialist, communist etc will become a rapacious tyrant. I am not stupid enough to believe that anything could change your mind.
I am not a Christian. I believe that Christian churches (indeed those of most religions) have carried out horrible crimes in their names. Believe me, that will never cause me to label Christians as thieves and murderers. You like to identify bad systems with socialism. You seem happy in this belief, and nothing anyone says will ever change your mind. Who am I to challenge a belief, which you are happy with?
I despise the tyrant Mugabe as much as you do. I abhor the hypocrisy of China and the corruption of Russia. A tyrannous system is abhorrent whatever clothes it wears. And by the way, I agree with you that the "socialist credentials" of these tyrants is "all complete and utter cant and hypocrisy".

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Emma B
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 01:02 PM

'but I am sure that you EmmaB know much better.'

I merely quoted a pan African perspective on the situation without personal comment or anaysis Teribus.

However, I feel that they also have a valid view of the situation on their own continent and that the 'West's' actions can frequently be perceived to be tainted by its colonial past and the threat of another 'regime change' policy used by the Zimbawe leadership to their own advantage.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 05:15 PM

Sorry about the drift, but does anyone else find Teribus's use of the word "little" to describe ones stature or ones opinion, pathetic.

I've noticed he uses it often to try to diminish any argument he doesn't agree with.

I don't mind in the least being called a "Heilan Anarchist"...there is a bit of truth in that, but one needs to be of decent build to humph 50kilo rolls of lead up onto a 40ft roof; as I have been doing all day.

Sorry T, you're not often right, but you're wrong again.
Get your "facts" right.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 05:55 PM

And BTW Teribus you are a very mixed up person regarding political philosophies.

You call me a "Heilan Anarchist" and in the next sentence, accuse me of being an admirer of Chinese or Russian Communism.

A bit of reading required Teribus?

Now about the meltdown...Perhaps a bit of Russian style Communism could save us; by using taxpayers hard earned money to prop up the pirates of the banking system.
You must be the only erso left who thinks all is well with the Capitalist world.

The coming recession will be unlike anything we have seen before.
We have no where left to run.
We can't "work our way out of this one" as we no longer make anything.
The credits are all being called in....we're fucked.

Go and order your Chairman Mao hat...Im sure you'll wear it with pride

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 07:56 PM

"The whole affair is being hyped to divert attentioin from what is about to happen in UK/US."

My first thought is one of indignation. I've seen the footage, heard the interviews and therefore know to my own satisfaction that the situation in Zimbabwe does not need to be hyped ... right? ...

Then the "fair" side of my patronizing overview kicks in and points out that there are no British and American journalists allowed in zimbabwe ... apparently ...

And that I have been trusting the word of Tsvangirai - the Galant hero - implicitly, while I have accepted that Mugabe and the Zimbabwean press are one sided and deliberately misinformative.

I wonder to myself briefly if these are grounds for a conspiracy theory that we are in fact the ones on the receiving end of the propaganda and Mugabe really is a hero resisting western interference.

I doubt it, but I indulge my muse ...

I allow myself to consider the perceived idea that China and Russia are siding with Mugabe (the bad guy) and taking money from his people that they can't afford in exchange for weapons to kill them, and Russia and China by proxy are therefore also the bad guys.

I reflect that the KGB are (reportedly) back in power and that russia is (apparently) more powerful than ever, while China has been murdering more Tibetans.

I consider images which seem to portray a new streamlined, market wise, form of communism emerging.

I speculate about the possibility that China and Russia might be sending a message ... "sorry, Zimbabwe isn't yours any more" ...

I remind myself of the recent Burmese purge ... and how it was worsened by a natural disaster ... and how the junta there wouldn't even allow aid agencies to interfere if it meant saving the dying.

And how "even" China pleaded with the Junta there to allow aid in.

And China worked unstintingly to save her own earthquake victims - and welcomed Japanese help - resulting in unprecedented warm relations with Japan, later opening flights to and from Taiwan -Americas other "friend" in south east Asia.

I consider that America and Britain aren't as popular or trusted as they used to be as a result of the shenanigans over Iraq and note the timing of China and Russias apparent displays of strength and independance on the one hand and apparent amiable congeniality on the other.

I am told that there are UN observers at the Zimbabwe elections who can hopefully be trusted to return accurate findings, and there are apparently millions of refugees escaping into south Africa ... another country who are being recast as the bad guys again after their miracle of democracy failed to deliver the instant rewards the world anticipated, nor the unconditional alliance that we had hoped for.

I see Britain desperately hanging on to europe by its finger tips and America saying " ... aw shucks ... "

And Britain putting on a brave face despite wanting to cry with shame.

And Bush softening his Image, partially obscured by the hullabaloo surrounding the competition for power between a Woman and a Black man.

I turn to the TV on my wall and descend illiterately into an intoxicating intricate orwellian abstract ......

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 08:22 PM

Ah Akenaton you don't admire Russian or Chinese Communism. Well that at least is a step in the right direction. A question, have you ever thought about criticising their contribution to the untold misery that they have inflicted on this world in their attempts to fool the world into believing that their political philosophy had any merit? Because it didn't did it? They never once succeeded in making, or convincing, all those stalwart workers into producing enough to feed themselves. They have never been renown for aiding the poor from the security of their workers paradise.

No Akenaton my little heilan' anarchist you wouldn't do any of that. You basically do not have one single constructive, or positive bone in your entire being. A review of your postings below the line here on Mudcat and you will find an endless catalogue of knock, knock, knock, moan, moan, moan. Just as well that you have lived and enjoyed all the benefits of a political system that has been sustained by capitalism, otherwise old son you'd have starved years ago.

EmmaB thanks for explaining your post. I would hate to think that any sane and rational person would ever try to depict Mugabe as the legitimate ruler of Zimbabwe. As for some South African rag, well all I can say is good luck to them, and advise them to take a good look across the border at Zimbabwe because that is going to be you in about ten years time.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Emma B
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 09:00 PM

I am no supporter of Mugabe but this is the sort of disinformation which really doesn't help.

'Opponents of the UN resolution argued that sanctions would undermine the mediation efforts of the AU and the SADC and endanger the negotiation process between the Zimbabwean government and the opposition.

With the help of the AU and SADC, the Zimbawean government and opposition officials met for the first time in South Africa on Thursday* to try to find a way out of their country's political crisis'

The above is how the situation is reported from a Chinese viewpoint which argues that sanctions would only undercut South Africa's mediation efforts.

*The meeting in the South African capital, Tshwane (formerly Pretoria), was aimed at pursuing a power-sharing agreement.


Time reports that -

'Although the international community has vociferously denounced Mugabe's regime as illegitimate — and this week the G-8 agreed on a sanctions package to present to the UN Security Council (although Russia appeared later to backpedal) — only Zimbabwe's neighbours are in a position to apply direct pressure on the regime.

And while support for Mugabe is waning within the Southern African Development Community and the African Union, the latter body still insists that the solution to the crisis is a government of national unity, rather than a transitional government to prepare for fresh elections. And that leaves Mugabe plenty of wiggle room.
Sanctions, meanwhile, are more likely to hurt ordinary Zimbabweans than the regime, analysts say, and make them even more dependent on the state.
The leadership would, however, feel the pain if their access to foreign exchange was cut.'

Unlike some posters, I don't profess to know what the solution to this humanitrian crisis is but maybe, despite their failure so far, the African Union should be positively encouraged to persue their negotiations with the full support of the UN.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 09:16 PM

The main reason the UK and USA need to hear Mbeki speak out against Mugabe is that we need to be reassured that he isn't planning similar expulsions and "restructuring".

He of course is fully aware of this fear and is no doubt using it to his advantage.

And for those who are interested MATHABA

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 09:46 PM

The superpowers have evolved since world war one from glamorous heroes to sleazy salesmen.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 09:46 PM

But then I suppose that was just another hard sell too ...

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Jul 08 - 05:35 PM

Another excellent piece from       in today's Times.

"Sanctions are a war waged by cowards"

For some time now I have been talking about "sanctions" as a form of terrorism practiced by the powerful nations against the weak.
Simon Jenkins, details the inefficacy, stupidity and cruelty in the course of action promoted by Teribus and others.

No matter how "smart sanctions" are targeted they can easily be circumvented and the victims are always the sick the poor, the very young and the elderly

As I said earlier leave the Zimbabwaen problem to the Zimbabwaens.
Stop interfering and stop the sanctions.

It is simplistic to blame the strife on "Tribalism"..The tribes co-existed well enough for thousands of years....before the political ingredient was added to the mix.
This is true for almost every country in Africa, "tribalism" distorted and abused by the pwer brokers....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Jul 08 - 05:39 PM

Sorry missed out the link toSimon Jenkin's article

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 13 Jul 08 - 06:37 PM

By the way, I happen to trust the news I have heard and I trust the BBC.

I have no doubt that Mugabe is every inch the monster that he is made out to be and I thin Russia and China should have agreed to effective measures to put pressure on Mugabes government to start listening.

I think Russia and China are capitalizing on the situation to strengthen their diplomatic position globally.

Zimbabwe do need help.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 12:55 AM

"The tribes co-existed well enough for thousands of years" - Akenaton

Now that Akenaton displays an amazing lack of knowledge on the history of African tribes. I say amazing because you come from, or live in Scotland, in the highlands.

Trouble with tribal cultures Akenaton, particularly where hunter-gatherers and herders are involved, is that they prey upon one another - "co-existed well enough" - ridiculous.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 03:52 AM

Do the States of today not "prey upon one another," only on a thousand times bigger and more vicious scale?

Nothing I have read suggests huge loss of life in "primitive tribal disputes" on the scale of modern warfare, with new super weapons being developed to facilitate the slaughter.

Observations of "primitive dispute" have shown that,as in the animal kingdom, posturing and ritual plays a huge part.
I have also read that these tribes usually have a very good form of "local govt"....committee's of tribal elders etc, which can stop territorial disputes from getting out of hand.

It is only when we start re-organising tribalism in our own distorted image that things start to go wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 01:05 AM

"Do the States of today not "prey upon one another," only on a thousand times bigger and more vicious scale?" - asks Akenaton

The answer is of course they do not, there is greater interdependence between states these days than at any other time in history, war and conflict goes against that.

"Nothing I have read suggests huge loss of life in "primitive tribal disputes" on the scale of modern warfare, with new super weapons being developed to facilitate the slaughter." - states Akenaton

Good point depending upon what populations actually were. I take it from what you have written there Akenaton that you have not read about the rampage that lasted for four years and the tens of thousands killed by Shaka Zulu in his grief after losing his favourite wife?

"Observations of "primitive dispute" have shown that,as in the animal kingdom, posturing and ritual plays a huge part." - States Akenaton.

You have not read about the invention of the Asegi then Akenaton or the development of tactics occasioned by that invention.

"I have also read that these tribes usually have a very good form of "local govt"....committee's of tribal elders etc, which can stop territorial disputes from getting out of hand." - Akenaton

Very true, did you also read how these councils decided how many members of the tribe had to be sold into slavery.

"It is only when we start re-organising tribalism in our own distorted image that things start to go wrong." - Akenaton

Well I took a look at that Akenaton and found that in the UK things became a damn sight better when we re-organised tribalism. Same goes for Europe. How many wars have there been in Africa between "nation" states? Very, very few Akenaton, Ethiopia and Eritrea being the most notable. Hundreds of examples of inter-tribal conflicts within countries though.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimbabwe 'elections'
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 06:37 PM

politics ... politics ...

That's what it comes down to.