Fiddle advice needed

Subject: Fiddle advice needed
From: Jane of 'ull
Date: 22 Jun 08 - 04:00 PM

I've just picked up the fiddle after a long time not playing. What I seem to struggle with, though it sounds daft, is how to hold the fiddle properly. Is it right that you're supposed to have it so tightly gripped with your chin and shoulder that you should be able to let go of it altogether? Cos I dont seem to do that!

The shoulder rest which I was advised to buy is one that hooks over your shoulder at the back, but i still cant seem to get a tight enough grip to let go.

Please help, any fiddlers out there?...ive never had any lessons and am not classically trained so am unsure about these things.

Jane x

Subject: RE: Fiddle advice needed
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jun 08 - 04:20 PM

yes,if you dont support the fiddle with your left arm,then as you progress,your technique will not be limited to first position,you will be able if you wish to play scott skinner tunes,AND TUNES like the Dawn and others that go into third position.

Subject: RE: Fiddle advice needed
From: GUEST,fiddler
Date: 22 Jun 08 - 04:37 PM

Get some lessons - you may not be holding it right! But DON'T get tension into your neck, hand and arm, you'll do damage. Or if you can't find a teacher, try this DVD - it shows you how to hold the bow and fiddle comfortably and with control. As well as a lot of other good advice

Subject: RE: Fiddle advice needed
From: GUEST,OT fiddler
Date: 22 Jun 08 - 04:40 PM

Ive read Captain Birdseye's message half a dozen times and I still dont know what he means or whether he was even half sober when he wrote it.

Then fiddler comes along and recommends a DVD without telling us what it is.

Has everyone gone mad?

Subject: RE: Fiddle advice needed
From: GUEST,fiddler
Date: 22 Jun 08 - 04:41 PM

B*gger. Forgot to paste the link

http://www.themusicroom-online.co.uk/product_info.php/cPath/303_306_307_363/products_id/3975?mrSid=084440b4e27144b20c13ec430d5e0878

(Can't do blue clickies. Being a fiddler is bad for your brain

Subject: RE: Fiddle advice needed
From: GUEST,fiddler
Date: 22 Jun 08 - 04:46 PM

There's a trailer on Youtube

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=T3zdF8DqkAY

I must be more technologically savvy than I thought!

Subject: RE: Fiddle advice needed
From: GUEST,motozulli
Date: 22 Jun 08 - 04:48 PM

it's not that you're clamping the fiddle between your collar bone and chin, it's that your chin is counter-weighting the instrument. So, basically, your chin should rest on the instrument with the same weight that the other end of the instrument exerts.

Does that make sense? no? didn't think so.

Try putting the instrument on your shoulder. Don't support it with your left hand. Use your chin, and move your chin up and down (making the instrument bounce...not too hard!). Do this a bit and you'll find the right weight.

it is important not to *grip* the instrument with your chin and shoulder, because you'll strain your neck unnecessarily. Check yourself every so often as you play to relax your body.

-Alaina

Subject: RE: Fiddle advice needed
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jun 08 - 05:35 PM

right here we go again,if you dont hold the fiddle with the recommended classical hold,you will limit yourself technique wise,there will be a small amount of the traditional repertoire you will not be able to play,holding the fiddle in any other way than the recommended classical one,may also give you physical problems .
guest OT fIDDLER,If that is not clear,then visit your optician.

Subject: RE: Fiddle advice needed
From: Jane of 'ull
Date: 22 Jun 08 - 05:52 PM

Thanks for all the advice. i will look up that dvd. but what about the fiddlers who rest it on their chest??? that looks impossible to me!

Subject: RE: Fiddle advice needed
From: GUEST,Chris Brownbridge
Date: 22 Jun 08 - 06:41 PM

This is a lazy habit and is only indulged in by the idle, like me. It needs your left hand to grip the fiddle which makes it difficult to play higher than 1st position - this can be done, but the classical position is best, I just can't manage it, so compromise. I recommend the classical any time!

Subject: RE: Fiddle advice needed
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 22 Jun 08 - 08:18 PM

The old Baroque grip was more natural and less physically damaging, though as stated the horribly unnatural 'classical' grip does give easier access to higher positions. For most players, though, it requires the use of clumsy artificial supports like the shoulder rest if they are not to injure themselves.

Indian violinists seem able to play in pretty much any position, though, using a relaxed grip that owes nothing to western 'classical' technique. That approach ought perhaps to be more widely explored.

Subject: RE: Fiddle advice needed
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Jun 08 - 08:23 PM

Then of course there was the old 'on the knee' position... also restricts the ability to do some technical things such as easy acess to higher than first position, restricts maximum playing speed (hey - that might be good for 'Irish sessions'!!!)...

Subject: RE: Fiddle advice needed
From: Grab
Date: 22 Jun 08 - 09:49 PM

Resting it against your chest requires that you support it with your left hand. That means you can't move your left hand around, which can be limiting. It's not necessarily lazy, it's just different. One thing it does open up is the possibility of singing and playing the violin at the same time, which clearly is impossible with the classical position.

As for gripping it with your chin/head/shoulder, the combination of shoulder pad, violin body and chinrest should fill just about all the space between the side of your chin and your shoulder. If you can't wedge it in there without arching your neck over or lifting your shoulder, you either need a bigger shoulder rest or your technique's wrong.

The chin rest and shoulder rest aren't "clumsy artificial supports", incidentally, any more than a guitar strap is. It's just what's needed for playing the instrument in a particular posture. There are plenty of "unnatural" things around which give better performance than the "natural" alternatives. ;-)

Graham.

Subject: RE: Fiddle advice needed
From: Stewart
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 12:02 AM

The violin is an instrument
invented by the devil
to destroy the human body,
so you need to be careful
not to let it do so.

If you let your left arm
support the violin
the extra weight on your wrist
will cause you problems,
and bending your wrist back
to hold the instrument will
cause carpal tunnel syndrome.

You need to experiment (fiddle around?)
with different shoulder rests and chin rests
until you find something that works for you.
This takes time, but a good teacher will help.

Good posture, stand up straight, no slouching!
It's all important for your body,
and also for being able to play well.

But it's all worth it,
great fun playing.

Good luck,

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: Fiddle advice needed
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 04:13 AM

When you hold the fiddle in classical position the pressure from the chin is very small most of the time. It is higher
1. When you let go with the left hand
2. When the left hand is doing clever things.

The fiddle is held largely by gravity: the neck rests on the thumb, the body rests on the shoulder. New fiddlers use too much pressure with the chin, and use the neck like a grab handle. This is one reason to have a few lessons from a competent teacher at the beginning of your learning experience

Stu

Subject: RE: Fiddle advice needed
From: s&r
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 04:39 AM

Sorry, the above is from me - I keep losing my cookie

Stu

Subject: RE: Fiddle advice needed
From: GUEST,fiddler
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 07:43 AM

I play viola, I don't hold it in the full classical position, but in a more relaxed way. I don't have any trouble shifting between 1st 3rd and 5th positions.

It's most important to find a way of holding the fiddle that enables you to do what you want whilst being comfortable. If you put strain on your body. you probably won't be playing for very long. People vary - length of neck, slope of shoulders etc - what works for one person may not work for another.

Subject: RE: Fiddle advice needed
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 03:31 PM

http://youtube.com/watch?v=-wzMfSiOkMQ   <

Subject: RE: Fiddle advice needed
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 03:36 PM

http://youtube.com/watch?v=-wzMfSiOkMQ

here, this one is right!!! Copy and paste this web address, to your address bar!!
This little lass has three degrees in music and working on her doctorate.
She's been playing violin/fiddle since six. Whether you like this group or not, I think she is outstanding!!

Subject: RE: Fiddle advice needed
From: Jane of 'ull
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 02:29 PM

Wow that is amazing!! she's like a little dancing nymph!

Hmm, that kind of puts my little problem to shame really. Next thread: 'how do I dance and play the fiddle at the same time'?!

Subject: RE: Fiddle advice needed
From: Jane of 'ull
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 02:33 PM

But seriously, what I've realised from all this good advice, is that I have to learn to relax when playing. NO-one ever got anywhere being stiff and tense. It is a balance thing rather than a force thing. And I certainly dont want to get carpal tunnel - that can be debilitating.

Subject: RE: Fiddle advice needed
From: Mark Ross
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 03:54 PM

I've watched the video and can't see any sort of amplification. I think, therefore that she is playing to a pre-recorded track. I don't don't think that one can play with that kind of precision whilst flailing about the stage. Like I said I don't see a microphone or any sort of chord. If I'm wrong somebody say so.

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Fiddle advice needed
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 05:16 PM

What fiddler plays the music you want to play in the style you want to play it in?

Emulate that fiddler.

If you want to sound like Captain Birdseye, do what he says.

If you want to sound like Bruce Molsky, he's your man.

In fiddling, as opposed to playing the violin, there is no "one size fits all" approach.

Time to add my favorite link:

12 questions violinists ask about fiddling


Russ (Permanent GUEST).

Subject: RE: Fiddle advice needed
From: Susan A-R
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 06:02 PM

Someone may have mentioned this. I'm being lazy, but the chin rest you decide on is pretty important too. I have a pretty short neck and don't use one. I haven't really thought of whether I can "grip" the fiddle without holding it with my left hand, and mainly have trouble with accuracy, not losing my grip (with the fiddle anyway) when I wander up into 3rd position. Mess with chin rests, find different heights, maybe even try cutting different thicknesses of sponge (the sponge, rubber band trick works pretty well for some folks)

Have fun!!

Subject: RE: Fiddle advice needed
From: Stringsinger
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 07:00 PM

Mairead Nesbitt is probably amplified but tastefully so. She is a great fiddler. Listen also
to her version of the Contradiction Reel. She is an outstanding musician. She has recorded her own albums in addition to those with "Celtic Woman". She's one of my faves for sure!

She plays with that Irish fire. Apparently she studied in a convent near Tipperary. She has also studied Hungarian fiddling. She played with RiverDance for a while with Micheal Flatley. I think she's come into her own with "Celtic Woman".

Her own personal CD "Raining Up" is a little too jazzy for my tastes since I really like her
playing the "trad chunes" best. But the CD is musical and worthwhile for a listen.

I don't think she has pre-recorded her playing. Her version of the "Contradiction" would
dispel that idea, I think.

Many of the folk fiddlers might find her too polished and would prefer the rural Sligo style or Donegal. I think she has synthesized and blended the various styles with classical technique well.

To do what she does would take many many years of training and playing.

What I can gather from my playing a bit (not well) is that relaxation and comfort is the key
to everything. The shoulder rest (I have used a Bon Musica) might help some but
I think that the "Baroque" approach mentioned above has a lot going for it. It's about
balancing the instrument and not clamping down with the chin. No tension!

There are different styles and bow "holds". There is a "Russian" style that places the stick
in the second groove of the finger and relies on a loose flowing wrist and cantilever with the middle finger offering the pressure on the stick.

There is a French style which places the first joint of the fingers on the stick.

There is a German style in which the bow hand moves horizontally rather than at an angle like the others.

Some curl their little finger on the stick for up bows and use the index to lead in down bows.

Then there's a mountain style where the wrist is almost stiff and the bow works from the shoulder or elbow. (This could give you physical problems but it sounds exciting).

I think there is one correct way and each player develops their individual style.
Johnny (Ti Jean) Carignan was one of the greatest of fiddlers and his technique made the classical players scratch their heads in amazement. He did things unconventionally that
classical players couldn't do. He could imitate Scottish pipes, play Morrison and Coleman pieces with precision and danceability. He was the master of the Acadian fiddle.

Many classical players have what I call a Mediterranean chin, short and fatty which grips the fiddle easily. Tall players with skinny necks have a different problem. Here, a shoulder pad that extends or the balance technique is probably best here.

It's the "devil's" instrument because it's a "devil" to master. Also, the theological reference comes from the "hoe-downs" frowned upon by "hardshell" Baptists where fights and drinking occurred.

There seems to be a rhythmic approach to fiddle that uses cultural musical patterns not found in classical music. It was foremost as a "fiddle" a dance instrument and if you can get feet moving, then you've mastered it.

A fiddle novice. (Wish I could play the damned thing better)

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Fiddle advice needed
From: Artful Codger
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 11:00 PM

Wow, it's impossible to play in the classical position and sing at the same time?? I must be a marvel. ;-}

Subject: RE: Fiddle advice needed
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 11:26 PM

Shoulder rest fitted properly? Height matters. Some don't extend enough for long-necked people, and need to be shimmed.

~S~

Subject: RE: Fiddle advice needed
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 10:05 AM

"imitate Scottish pipes"

My dad and I used to do a piano/violin duet which had that simple violin effect ('double bowing') - some medley of Scottish tunes - from sheet music dated some time in the 20/30s...