BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black

Subject: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 12:23 PM

Ralph Nader's got some nerve.

"In an interview with the Rocky Mountain News, independent presidential candidate Ralph Nader says he's disappointed with Barack Obama:

"There's only one thing different about Barack Obama when it comes to being a Democratic presidential candidate. He's half African-American. Whether that will make any difference, I don't know. I haven't heard him have a strong crackdown on economic exploitation in the ghettos. Payday loans, predatory lending, asbestos, lead. What's keeping him from doing that? Is it because he wants to talk white? He doesn't want to appear like Jesse Jackson? We'll see all that play out in next few months and if he gets elected afterwards."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/06/25/nader-obama-trying-to-tal_n_109085.html

-snip-

This dailykos diary addresses the points that Nader tried to make about Obama's positions:

http://dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/6/25/9353/55952/443/541628
Educating Ralph Nader on Obama's "Blackness"
by Muzikal203
Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 06:48:51 AM PDT

But, like the African American writer of that diary, "I take exception to the term "talk white" Black people are dealing with the SAME issues as White people, maybe on different levels, but we are all dealing with them nonetheless." However, I get the sense that Ralph Nader wasn't only commenting about what issues Barack Obama addresses. I think that Nader was also talking about how Obama speaks.

By now, most people know that Senator Barack Obama has an equal amount of White ancestry as he does Black ancestry. Yet, he identifies himself as an African American. So does Nader really think that all African Americans talk one certain way? I believe that Nader is attempting to play into the racism in the USA by labeling Obama as a "Black candidate" who is "tryin to act White". At least that's how I interprete his statements, including the one that Obama is "half-African American". Maybe times really are changing, but in the United States, if not elsewhere, saying that a person is half-African American is like saying that a woman is somewhat pregnant. Either you are or you aren't.

And what in the world is "acting White?!". It's been my experience that all White people don't think, act and talk alike. It's also been my experience that all Black people don't think, act, and talk alike. In my not at all humble opinion, it's racist to assume that all members of a racial group are alike.

Several years ago on Mudcat, I was asked on a public thread whether I "talked like I write on Mudcat". I admit to being surprised and offended by that question. But because I believed {and still believe} that the person's intent was well meaning, I responded to that poster-on that public thread-that yes, I do talk like I write. I said that sometimes I write and speak more formally than other times. And sometimes my informal writing and speech includes African American vernacular words and phrases, including slang. I also "explained" that like everybody else, I write and talk in formal and informal modes. My "formal modes" of writing and speaking are the way that they are because that's the way I was educated to write & talk when I'm being formal. I further explained that I write & talk in my "relaxed modes" the way I do because that how I roll when I'm not being formal. And-as this post demonstrates-on Mudcat, I'm usually semi-formal/semi-relaxed.

Far be it for me to dare to speak for Senator Barack Obama, but I think it's safe to say that Obama has formal and informal modes of communication just like everyone else. And it also seems to me that Barack Obama's brushing the dirt off his shoulder in one of his campaign speeches lately shows that he is quite familiar with and isn't afraid of using Black cultural references with audiences that aren't entirely African American [not that African Americans are the only ones who would have "gotten" that brush your dirt off your shoulder gesture and saying]. Far be it for me to speak for Senator Barack Obama, but it seems to me that he is at least as bicultural a person as I am. And it sure seems to me that Barack Obama is comfortable with being bicultural, just like I am.

So, here's a message to Ralph Nader, if you wanna make the news, and get some sliver of respect-if not votes-from potential voters, you gotta raise your game a lot. That weak bs you just ran with won't even get you out your front door.

So who's really frontin [pretending to be] a Presidential candidate? Seems like it's Ralph Nader and not Barack Obama.


Okay. Vent over.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 12:42 PM

"Is it because he wants to talk white?"

Wow. Speaks loudly of Nader. What absolute balderdash.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 12:45 PM

I notice he makes some fairly offensive generalizations about White people as well. Ah, well. We can be thankful for Bob Barr's candidacy this time around.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 01:01 PM

Nader lost the plot years ago. Anti-business is his business.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 01:11 PM

Seems like Obama is talking normally to me. He doesn't sound like a stereotypical Black man on some popular TV show. Great!

I knew a Black man in the 60's and he talked normally too. His name was Reynolds Winslow. He talked and dressed like Sydney Poitier, who also talks normally. He gave the impression of being himself, not a stereotype of a media-driven racial profile.

You do not have to go on in some exaggerated ghetto patios and "cool" expressions of that sort in order to be "Black"...and it's a relief to see someone like Obama who is not pandering to that particular kind of mannerism in order to create some kind of self-conscious image of himself as a Black person.

And you know what else? There are white people who can dance! ;-)

I get the impression that Obama is running as a human being rather than as a race stereotype. What a refreshing thing that is. But he's living in a society that is so hung up on race stereotypes that they are not willing to let him just BE a human being. That is not Barack Obama's error, it is the error of the society around him.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Skivee
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 01:42 PM

IMHO Ralph's reasoning is difficult to understand because his larnyx is constricted by the muscular band of his own anus around his throat.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Amos
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 01:51 PM

Barack Obama speaks human-being, and no other language. He can put on jive in any color, but when he says what is really on his mind, it's human that comes out.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 01:58 PM

There surely seem to be a few times when Barack Obama has made a play of a black word or gesture - the bump, the shoulder brushing. So why does he not address the particular issues that more affect black Americans than whie ones? He might be accused of playing up the black when it suits him, but ducking the heavy hitters in the money system.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 02:32 PM

"And you know what else? There are white people who can dance! ;-)"

I ain't one of 'em, fyi.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 02:35 PM

I agree with Azizi 100% on this.

I, too, use different forms of English when I am addressing specific groups of people.

I am now retired and the first thing I noticed was that my speech was more relaxed. As a teacher, I had to monitor the use of my own language on a daily basis because I worked with children and because I had to use standard English as a professional. Now I can talk any way I want to and the more I speak my own language, the more I feel more like my own self. Language is the expression of who you are and when you come from a mixed cultural background, you learn to monitor your speech according to your audience.

There is standard English (the Queen's variety) and then there are all the variations. The variety of English you use depends more on educational influence (and your audience) than on the colour of your skin.

Nader was way off base. That kind of thinking will (hopefully) go the way of the dinosaur. Obama gives us hope that we can now move forward and leave the stereotypes behind.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 03:00 PM

I don't give a fart in a windstorm how you talk or what your accent is. I want to hear your ideas and then I want you to act upon them. A presidential candidate cannot be one-issue, single faceted, because the problems facing the country are extremely complex and will require complex solutions. Just communicate.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 03:22 PM

'Way back in the 60s, when personal computers were just creeping into the colleges, there was a real spurt in the analysis of social issues using the new calculating power that was being unleashed.

Scientific American ran a series - about three months worth - of articles describing studies of "elections."

While there were lots of variations in approaches, statistical models, and wishful thinking in the various studies reported, the single irrefutable conclusion of them all was:

In a three candidate election in which all three candidates have at least sufficient attraction to make a blip in the results, the candidate who will nearly always win is the one UNACCEPTABLE to the most people.

(Most of the debate in the articles was about whether there's anything that could be done about it.)

Mr Nader's ego continues to prove the point - if only by showing that he can (maybe still) siphon off his handful of "protest votes." Whether he can draw enough to seriously harm those nearest to agreeing with him is - perhaps - arguable, but that he provides a major assist to the side he most despises can't be disputed with any convincing arguments I can think of.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 03:31 PM

The siphoning off effect is the reason we can be thankful for Bob Barr's candidacy.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 04:06 PM

Bob Barr's site.

His voting record is available to view.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 04:33 PM

The rest of Nader's little rant is equally disappointing. He seems to believe that Obama, being an African American, should be focusing on what he is going to do for the African American community. Nader doesn't seem to get the point that he's running for President of the United States, not President of the African American people of the United States. I'm sure that Obama does have personal views of the situation as he sees it, but Nader is fooling no one with his assesment of Obama. Is Nader focusing only on the problems occuring in whatever race, creed, color, religious sector that spawned him? I don't see it!

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 04:38 PM

Obama talks sense. No wonder Nader can't understand him. People like Obama, Tiger Woods, and dozens of other public figures of mixed cultural heritage fight this every day. They try to be proud and aware of their heritage while struggling to NOT be required to 'sound' or 'act' like ANY particular stereotype!

Try this test...listen to the news on TV with your eyes closed,...pretend you are blind... and ask yourself whether the man sounds reasonable when you can't TELL his color or heritage.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 04:43 PM

JiK, don't you mean "fewest"?

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 04:45 PM

" Well, he (man) worships at the altar of a stagnant pool, and when he sees his reflection, he's fulfilled. All he believes are his eyes, and his eyes they just tell him lies, but there's a woman on my block, she just sits there while the night grows still, she says 'Who's gonna take away his license to kill?' "

- Bob Dylan

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 05:46 PM

"And you know what else? There are white people who can dance!" LH

They mostly can't jump, though. :) I don't remember which Black player it was who said, I have White Man's disease- can't jump worth a hoot.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: pdq
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 05:56 PM

Sounds like Charles Barkley.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 06:02 PM

I can jump. I jumped off a 10 foot high overhang once. Sprained my ankle pretty darned bad, too. I also jumped out of an airplane (with a parachute, from about 5,000 feet); that taught me not to jump out of a perfectly good airplane.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 06:17 PM

Well, I ain't gonna jump on Ralph Nader none on this one even if he was being a tad insensitive... Okay, more than a tad... Hey, the man is like 74 years old and is a tad on the cranky side these days... Okay, maybe more than just a tad... And Ralph is prolly a tad paranoid of the Dems wnatin' to blast him for 2000... Okay, more than a tad paranoid... So Ralph tired to nmake a point that got outta hand and ended up soundin' like a jerk...

I can forgive him 'cause I like Ralph... I really do and I've voted for him alot and I know that he must be frustarted because alot of his old supporters are on the Obama bandwagon and like Ralph says when Dems jump on him for 2000, I'd say this to my ol' bud, "Get over it, Ralph" and I'd add, "...and chill..."

Ralph Nader isn't the enemy... He juts a somewhat burned out ol'
revoltionary and I just ain't gonna get into this any further 'cause like I said, "I like Ralph"... I really do...

And I like Obama and that's the way it is...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 06:20 PM

Isn't Nadar of mixed cultural (I don't believe mixed ethnically, but I could be wrong) heritage? Wasn't he the first Arab-American (I believe of Christian heritage) to run for president? Don't know. I do not know,b ecause I have not followd him carefully, if he practices what he preaches and addresses issues particularly of concern to other Arab (or Lebanese) Americans.

When we get around to the "race dialog" we..meaning someone else..must talk, more than any other topic I think..about "acting white." This fear of being labeled as doing that has kept so many students from succeeding..has put pressure on them to act sometimes in not so great ways....it is a nut that has to be cracked sooner or later..that "acting white" and acting all sorts of other ways can be respectful, responsible, and leave room for cultural differences...mg

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 06:22 PM

"And you know what else? There are white people who can dance!" LH

Hey! I can dance!! But I can't jump - bad knees. 'Course, I'm not white - sorta a light pinky-beige where the sun don't hit.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: GUEST,crazyhorse
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 06:38 PM

Way back in the 60s, when personal computers were just creeping into the colleges

Not in the 60s they weren't! Maybe a (very) few in the 70s, though not many, it didn't really start until the 80s

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 06:54 PM

Personal computers did not get going in any substantial sense till the 1980s.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: GUEST,Crazyhorse
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 06:58 PM

There's an echo in this room

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: pdq
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 07:04 PM

In July of 1980, IBM representatives met for the first time with Microsoft's Bill Gates to talk about writing an operating system for IBM's new hush-hush "personal" computer. IBM had been observing the growing personal computer market for some time. They had already made one dismal attempt to crack the market with their IBM 5100. At one point, IBM considered buying the fledgling game company Atari to commandeer Atari's early line of personal computers. However, IBM decided to stick with making their own personal computer line and developed a brand new operating system to go with. The secret plans were referred to as "Project Chess". The code name for the new computer was "Acorn". Twelve engineers, led by William C. Lowe, assembled in Boca Raton, Florida, to design and build the "Acorn". On August 12, 1981, IBM released their new computer, re-named the IBM PC. The "PC" stood for "personal computer" making IBM responsible for popularizing the term "PC".

The first IBM PC ran on a 4.77 MHz Intel 8088 microprocessor. The PC came equipped with 16 kilobytes of memory, expandable to 256k. The PC came with one or two 160k floppy disk drives and an optional color monitor. The price tag started at $1,565, which would be nearly $4,000 today. What really made the IBM PC different from previous IBM computers was that it was the first one built from off the shelf parts (called open architecture) and marketed by outside distributors (Sears & Roebucks and Computerland). The Intel chip was chosen because IBM had already obtained the rights to manufacture the Intel chips. IBM had used the Intel 8086 for use in its Displaywriter Intelligent Typewriter in exchange for giving Intel the rights to IBM's bubble memory technology.

Less than four months after IBM introduced the PC, Time Magazine named the computer "man of the year"

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 07:05 PM

There's an echo in this room ;P

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: GUEST,Crazyhorse
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 07:16 PM

IBM, mm yes, but big blue didn't invent the pc. A lot happened before they got involved, try googling zilog and digital research; some of us worked on them.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 07:20 PM

mg, I believe that some Black students equate "acting White" with succeeding academically in school. However, I think that if those Black students were to attend schools with White students, and if they had more opportunities interacting with White students after school, then they wouldn't continue to have this belief in inherent White superiority [academic, or otherwise].

Unfortunately, for various reasons, many public schools in the United States are still largely segregated, even in cities that have sizable numbers of non-White people. Consequently, many of these Black students who equate "acting White" with academic achievement have had little to no experience going to school with non-Black students.

Thank goodness, my experiences in integrated public schools and college showed me that I was wrong to think that White people-as a group and not as individuals-were smarter than non-Black people as a group and not as individuals.

Here's an article on this subject that you and others may be interested in:

http://www.blackcommentator.com/100/100_cover_acting_white.htmlActing White? African American Students and Education by Thomas Rhymes, Ph.D.

The African American author of this article refutes the commonly held belief that African American students connect "acting White" with academic success.

Here is an excerpt from that article:
"Somehow many African Americans (usually the affluent, disconnected ones) have swallowed this misconception about African-American youth being anti-intellectual and anti-education. This ideology concerning nerds and geeks did not originate in the African-American community, but in predominantly white, middle-class, suburban communities. In our schools, being smart just doesn't matter much. Kids don't admire it or despise it. All other things being equal, they would prefer to be on the smart side of average rather than the dumb side, but intelligence counts for far less than, say, physical appearance, charisma, or athletic ability. Think about it, high school athletes get more press and recognition than those on the debate teams. As a matter of fact, how many academic competitions do we have in our public schools? It seems like sheer hypocrisy, to me, for anyone to suggest that African Americans place less value on education than the rest of the population."

-snip-

Here's another excerpt:

"Let's say for a moment, that I actually bought into this misconception about African-American youths' aversion to education; when the curriculum is viewed from our social studies, history and English classes across the country; it's easy to see how education and "whiteness" becomes inseparable. No, I do not believe that education in and of itself should be viewed as white, but I am saying that I can understand why it may be viewed that way by some.

For example, most of the history classes (World & U.S.) focus mostly on people of European descent. Curriculum in our public schools continues to be either opposed to or indifferent about a more multi-cultural emphasis. Only a handful of our public school students know more than the customary African-American figures (Frederick Douglass, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Malcolm X, Harriet Tubman etc.) displayed in our curriculum. The study of world history usually begins with the Roman Empire (untouched is the study of the ancient Egyptian, Nubian or Ethiopian civilizations) and ends with modern Europe. Secondary U.S. History curriculum similarly omits any significant study of the institution of slavery or Reconstruction and their role in this country's history. These omissions become even more glaring when classes such as African-American studies are not required courses. English Literature courses may devote a few weeks a year (usually around February) to authors such as Langston Hughes, Alice Walker, James Baldwin or Toni Morrison; hardly enough time for the average student to become familiar with African-American history or culture".

-snip-

Dr. Rhymes also makes the point that entrance to honors programs in schools are often biased against African Americans. And he makes other points refuting the belief that African Americans students equate acting White with excelling in school.

**

After reading that article I still believe that some Black students equate "acting White" with succeeding in school. And I still maintain that if those Black students went to school with White students they wouldn't have that belief for long {because they would see that some White students don't do well academically and they'd see that some Black students do better than some White students.

My bottom line? I believe that we should be talking about improving the education system, the curriculum, teacher training, and the over-all learning environment in public schools so that students-regardless of race and ethnicity-learn to value learning and not just learn to value getting good grades.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: pdq
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 07:22 PM

Crazyhorse...remember, never take Mudcat too seriously. It is here for people to have fun. I was playing with font color. Kinda cool, eh? I think it relates to Nader who can't really be White or Black since he insists he is a Green.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: GUEST,Crazyhorse
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 07:41 PM

pdq, there're 10 types of people; those that understand the basis of computers and those that don't

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 07:49 PM

Here's an excerpt from Ralph Nader's Wikipedia page:

"Nader was born in Winsted, Connecticut. His parents, Nathra and Rose Nader, were Maronite Catholic immigrants from Lebanon. Rose and Nathra Nader's native language is Arabic, and Ralph has spoken it along with English since childhood."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Nader

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: pdq
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 08:42 PM

Gee, Crazyhourse...I always believed that binary thinking would get you in trouble.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 09:01 PM

pdq, you are right- I think that was Charles Barkley who said he can't jump. (Never noticed it slowing him down too much.)

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 09:10 PM

JiK, don't you mean "fewest"?

No. If you allowed each voter to vote to remove one unacceptable candidate the one who would get the most "votes" in that form of "unelection" will be the most likely winner in any conventional three-way contest between credible candidates, at least according to the multiple different analyses prevented in the articles.

In fact, a "blackball vote" was one method proposed for getting the candidate not UNacceptable to the largest fraction of the voters. Each person would vote against one candidate, and the one with the least votes would win. While it would be entirely possible that almost everybody would like someone else a bit more, the winner here would be more likely to be "intolerable for the fewest."

Believe it or not, there were some pretty good arguments for this being a better method than our current confusion, although there wasn't much comment on the possible ways to "beat the system" if someone tried it out. And since our leaders all know how to manipulate the present system (which looked good in theory once), they'd be unlikely to give it up for the experiment.

The math gets complex, and of course the results are only statistical predictions; but the simple "majority gets to pick one" has certain elements of unfairness likely (with high probability) to be expressed in the real world.

But of course fairness has nothing much to do with politics.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 10:06 PM

JiK, isn't that divorced from reality, when in the real world most political elections are two-horse races?


Azizi, while the study you cite provides argument, I do not see it as refutation. I also think it focusses on the wrong thing. IMHO the rejection of "acting white" and the associated labels (coconut, bounty bar, etc) are not related to success, but to the acceptance or rejection of authority. Academic failure may follow, but it is cause, not effect.

A similar phenomonon is present in less favoured white populations, too, and is (IMHO) responsible for the reduced social mobility being seen and criticised in the UK. The analysis blaming lack of opportunity is IMHO faulty. Previous mobility came about because those wishing to "succeed" were prepared to emulate the behaviour patterns of the more successful. Now that is rejected, as is seen by the social rejection n less favoured groups of those perceived to be "snobs", and the slumcult spread of esturine English, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 10:24 PM

I'm not entirely sure that there IS a truly fair way of voting. Proportional voting may come closest, but even that has its injustices.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 10:34 PM

This thread has diverged into three different topics......oops, make that four.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: GUEST,Hummer
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 12:56 AM

Bringing it back to the topic at hand.

I see no problem with what Nader said. He not only speaks with the authority of a person of color as an Arab American, but also with the authority of a decades long political leader and advocate for the poor and working class of all racial and ethnic backgrounds.

African Americans don't own the rights to public dialogue on race issues. How predictable that people like Al Sharpton leap to their feet and insinuate that Nader is being racist by calling it as he sees it from his perspective as an Arab American political activist.

Nader is right. Obama has been quite hypocritical. On the one hand, his candidate narrative has him talking about how proud he is of his African American identity in the primaries (the now famous speech on race in Philadelphia), then turning all "oreo" (as lots of black folks might say) or "white" (as Nader said) in his general election commercials showing him with his white relatives, to pull in the Middle America vote.

The appalling remarks Obama made on Father's Day should have been widely denounced by Democrats, progressives, and especially by the African American communities his remarks were directed squaarely at. He said some simply god awful stuff in that speech. And what did we hear from African Americans, progressives, and Democrats? Silence.

That is just plain wrong.

Ditto his remarks on the Israeli Palestinian troubles.

What Nader said about Obama is quite accurate, and isn't anything you don't hear being said on the streets every day about Obama by many progressives and people of color--including many people who voted for him in the primaries.

Anyone who spends any time at all living in communities of color hears people making these sorts of complaints about Obama quite frequently, actually.

I also note it doesn't appear as though the originator of this thread, or most those commenting on the story, actually read the original article/interview from which Nader's comments were lifted out of context. I think all the "shame on Nader" reactionary opinion mongering amounts to little more than the same old circle the wagons tactics we've seen from Obama supporters all along.

Nader is right to raise the issue of how Obama is spinning his racial identity in the election, and has been playing race cards right and left throughout the primary and into the general. The only thing that appalls me is that Nader is the only public figure to date to stand up and say some things that desperately needed to be said.

Obama doesn't control the race dialogue in this country, nor do his supporters, and nor do African Americans. Nor are they right to try and control it. If, as they claim, race is a subject that needs to be raised in this election (and most of his supporters seem to hold to that opinion), then they need to be tolerant of racial views being aired that make them feel uncomfortable, that push the race dialogue forward, and move it out of the nearly exclusive realm of the African American political and religious leaders dictating what the parameters of the dialogues about race are going to be to all other people of color.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: GUEST,Jeff
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 01:35 AM

Charles Barkley didn't say 'I can't jump." He said, upon his retirement fron the NBA, "I can't jump, anymore. I got 'white man's disease." There's a substantial difference. C.B. was one of the best players in NBA history and in his early career could dominate a game from the power forward position at 6'4". He said he was 6'6", but was proven wrong when a 'stand in' was needed to be the same height as Charles for a commercial being shot and the 6'6" guy was too tall.

He also said, " Larry Bird, Larry Bird...why does everybody keep talkin' about Larry Bird? Kevin McCale was much tougher for me to defend...all elbows, knees and that sweet 'step-back' jumper. Man, he used to give me nightmares!" Quoted from the Jim Rome show.

Sorry to have digressed...just a point of clarification.

As always Azizi, right on the mark.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Azizi
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 01:55 AM

This thread has diverged into three different topics......oops, make that four.
-bobad

Fwiw {and I realize that it's not worth much}, as the thread starter, let me say that I don't mind sidebar discussion as long as those side bar discussions don't stray too far from the main topic of the discussion, or don't stray too long from the main topic of the discussion, and as long as discussion is made without intent to PIP {pee in the pool}*.

As far as this particular thread goes, when it started there were more than one main topic of discussion. Imo, those original topics were

1. Ralph Nader's specific comment about Barack Obama
"talking White" **

2. A general discussion of talking White; talking Black **

3. A general discussion about Barack Obama's Presidential candidacy

4. A general discussion of Ralph Nader's third party candidacy for US President

So far, posters have commented civilly on those subjects, and, hopefully more civil comments will occur on those topics.

Some posts to this thread have as their theme, these subjects that I think are very related to those three "main" topics:.

1. Comments about the efficacy of third parties in past and present US Presidential elections

2. Comments about "acting Black"; "acting White"

3. Comments about the ethnic background of Ralph Nader

4. Comments about theories of determining which Presidential candidate may win or lose based on their unfavorable rating {or something like that?}

In addition, imo, there are more tangential comments on this thread about:

1. the decade individuals in the general public people first began using personal computers.

2. computers being computer savvy in general.

While I consider those two topics to be off-topic [okay, much more off topic] than the other subjects I have listed, I can see how it came from a point that was made earlier in this thread. And I don't think that discussion was done in an uncivil manner or that it was done to derail the main discussion. However, I confess that when there were a number of posts about computers/being computer savvy, I felt that I [or someone else] had to intervene to return the discussion to its primary and/or secondary topics.

That's how I see the discussion thus far. Thanks to all who have posted on this thread, and thanks for being civil about what can be highly contentious subjects.

Keep the comments coming, and please don't "pee in the pool".*


* In the first [and, as far as I'm concerned,perhaps the only non-infamous] "Name That Mudcatter" thread, a Mudcatter {I think it was Jeri, but I'm not certain} used the phrase PIP {pee in the pool} to as a referent for bad "spirited" or otherwise, toxic behavior from a poster or posters which is intended to, or results in the thread being polluted.

**I capitalize "Black" and "White" when they are used as racial referents. I recognize that most people don't. As to why I and why other people may also capitalize these referents, the short story is that this is based on the history of the referent Negro in the USA, and the hard fought but eventually successful effort to get the first letter capitalized in that group referent, rather than using a small "n". Not capitalizing the first letter in this group name when the first letter of all other formal group names were capitalized such as Grench, Jewish, Native American, Chinese, Polish, Italian etc] served to reinforce the prevailing position of the nation that "Negroes" were not as good as other people. When the group referent "Negro" was retired in the 1970s, the position was that "Black" and "White" should be capitalized for the same reasons that "Negro" was capitalized.

That said, I consider this capitalize or don't capitalize decision to be a personal choice, largely because "White" and "Black" are informal racial group referents. On the other hand, the general rule in the print media is to always capitalize the group referent African American. Failing to capitalize "African American" is seen by the general rules of mainstream print media to be a definite error and is also seen by many African Americans to be a serious put down.

Btw, some contemporary African Americans use "Negro" as an insult toward "Uncle Tom" Black people. That referent is even more insulting when the first letter is purposely not capitalized.

**

Given these comments, I'd add this discussion to the second set of topics that have been raised on this thread. And if people continue to post to this thread, I'm sure that there will be more topics discussed.

And, btw, though I admit that I raised the topic, I'm not at all interested in discussing the Name The Mudcatter threads any further than I've discussed them already on this thread. Of course, ya'll can do what you want, but ,in my opinion, any further discussion of those threads on this one would be pip.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Azizi
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 02:01 AM

Thanks, Jeff.

I see that I forgot to add the comment about "White men can't jump" or the related comment about "White men [or White people] can't dance". But those comments are part of a general discussion of race in American and the world. I'm sorry, I should have put that topic in the first category.

**

Btw, as some of you may have noted, I really like categorizing things. I think that is because of my Virgo rising and my Virgo Mars placements. {Which adds astrology to the list of subjects people have raised in this thread. I raised it for informational purposes, as well as to "lighten" the mood {no pun intended Ha! Ha!}. But I hope that this won't result in any off-topic discussons about astrology on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: GUEST,Hummer
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 02:07 AM

Also, Nader himself wouldn't be such an easy target for African Americans and the neo-liberals if he weren't Arab American. Tune into the rabidly anti-Arab and anti-Muslim cable news programs any night of the week, and you will see what all the fuss is about.

Why are Obama and his supporters so rabidly anti-Arab and anti-Muslim?
Because they fear their candidate being associated with the American Muslim community--especially the Black Muslim community--in any way.

Why would that be? Easy answer. Widespread xenophobia and religious bigotry among Americans (like the neo-liberals supporting Obama) against Arab Americans and the American Muslim community.

They fear that Obama being associated with either community would result in him losing the election.

Because he is African American?

Hell no.

Because he might be Muslim. That is a far greater sin to Americans nowadays, than being African American.

So is that bigotry and intolerance rooted in race or religion or ethnic origin or what?

Does Obama stand up for Arab Americans and the Muslim community, which any US president damn well ought to do, and denounce that sort of intolerance and bigotry?

No.

Instead, he is exploiting it, and hoping he can spin his personal narrative history in a way that spins away from the Muslim community completely.

At the expense of the community that Nader is, by ethnic origin, a member of--but I guess Obama dissing Nader's community doesn't count.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Azizi
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 02:09 AM

Btw, my sense is that the reason why other posters added "White men can't jump" and White men can't dance comments was also to lighten the vibe in what could be a heavy duty thread. And that's cool and the gang with me [not that it matters what is okay with me more than what is okay with anyone else on this thread, except for the fact that I'm the thread starter. I think that being the thread starter may give me a few "Brownie points" [bad joke]. But seriously, I definitely believe that being the thread starter for these kinds of threads confers a certain degree of responsibility to help ensure the thread stays relatively on topic, and also to help ensure that the thread stays relatively civil, even if that means reminding people to stay civil.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: GUEST,Hummer
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 02:20 AM

If you don't mind my asking, have you read the actual interview with and article about Nader in question, in it's entirety?

Also (again, if you don't mind my asking), what was your motive/intent for cutting and pasting from two Democratic party blogs, the Huffington Post & Daily Kos, rather than the original article, which is freely available online, and posting your own opinion?

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Azizi
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 02:23 AM

Richard Bridge, with regard to this comment that you made in your 25 Jun 08 - 10:06 PM:

"Azizi, while the study you cite provides argument, I do not see it as refutation. I also think it focusses on the wrong thing. IMHO the rejection of "acting white" and the associated labels (coconut, bounty bar, etc) are not related to success, but to the acceptance or rejection of authority. Academic failure may follow, but it is cause, not effect".

Let me clarify that I think that some Black students, and some other non-White students, use "acting White" and "talking White" as put downs of other Black and non-Black students who do well academically. I don't think that this has to do with a rejection of authority. I think it has to do a devaluation of academic achievement. In my previous post to this thread, I pointed out that those students who equate doing well in school with being White generally attend all Black or predominately Black schools and thus have very little direct experience with how White students do in schools. I believe that Dr. Rhymes [whose article I quoted and provided a link to] raised valid points about this subject. But I stand by my view that some Black students diss other Black students with these "acting/talking White" accusations.

I'd love to read any research studies or summaries of such studies that surely are out there that provide information about whether these "acting White" insults occur with lesser frequency in integrated Black/White or Latimo/White public schools that don't segregate students according to test scores. I added that other variable because I believe that dividing students by test scores will in effect segregate those students. I'd have to go back to Dr. Rhymes points and other reasons such as institutional racism in housing and schools to provide reasons why I think this is so.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Azizi
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 02:42 AM

Hummer, for your information, I did read the original article/interview about Nader's comments. And I stand by what I've said on this thread about those comments.

I agree with you that "Obama doesn't control the race dialogue in this country, nor do his supporters, and nor do African Americans."

Furthermore, I've never believed that Barack Obama is infalliable. I very much support his presidency, and echo what was said on this thread-that Obama will be the President of all people in the USA not only of African Americans. That doesn't mean that I agree with every position he has taken, or will take, or every statement he has made or he will make.

That said, I'm not going to use this thread or other threads on this forum to list what I agree with Barack Obama about. I also have chosen not to focus on this thread or any other thread on any of Barak Obama's issues and statements that I don't agree with.

You can take issue with these decisions that I have made if you want to. However, these are my choices to make, and I've made them.

Subject: RE: BS: Talkin White. Talkin Black
From: Azizi
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 02:50 AM

LOL! I just noticed that I spelled French "Grench". That was a "legitimate" typo and not a subliminal comment about how the Grinch stole Christmas.

My sincerest apologies to the French.

[Also, my apologies for any other typos that I've made. Also, thanks to the forum moderator who fixed my html tagging mistake in the first post].