BS: Gun Threads - Has one Cat changed their mind?

Subject: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 28 May 99 - 10:55 PM

I was really surprised to see the "Guns Hesitatingly" thread come crawling back. I know it's been a low-key kind of week, and a little controversy can liven things up, but I was hoping it would poop out (at least til the next sad news story.) Speaking personally, it (and the other gun ones) brought out the worst in me - I was sarcastic, rude, and critical of some, for things other than the thread's content. That's lack of control brought on by frustration, and I apologise.
So many passioned arguments have been put forth on ALL (there are more than two) sides, and I truly wonder, has all the rhetoric changed anyone's mind away from their original position.
Please, let's not make this thread heated. I'm just curious whether anyone's words convinced a Mudcatter that they were wrong.
sincerely, rick.

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 May 99 - 11:29 PM

Not mine! No easy answers on this issue. And, Rick, I really don't think you have a thing to apologise for.

Katlaughing, "sweetie"

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 May 99 - 11:36 PM

Dear Rick,

Forgot to say thanks for starting this, as I think some might think I was waffling. If it was the days of my childhood, my father's childhood, or even my grandfather, my stance would be quite a bit different. As it is, I still think the same as stated previously.

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: puzzled
Date: 29 May 99 - 01:09 AM

Didn't change mine. but my additions to the gun threads were put there because i thought a variety of opinions should be expressed to show the complexity of the issue.
On such a topic i would be greatly surprised to see any converts.

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: Bulldog
Date: 29 May 99 - 06:50 AM

The important thing is; has anyone a sensible solution to violence? Until we introduce Consequence and Moral culpability to humans, countless people will whine about gun control; until politicians introduce more "Feel Good Legislation" without addressing the real issues. Sensible legislation is not in favour these days, which is a great pity. Ignorance can be cured, Stupidity cannot. Regards: Dave.

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: Margo
Date: 29 May 99 - 10:44 AM

Not I, said the goose. I still maintain my opinion that I had before the thread came along, BUT I was very grateful to read all the points of view because it helps me to understand other people's concerns and ideas.

Rick, I often have to change what I say when I'm writing, whether it is here in the forum or in a letter. I keep having to reread and evaluate what was said to see if I really expressed myself properly.

Margarita

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: Chet W.
Date: 29 May 99 - 10:57 AM

A lot of the answers put forth by the "let's not control guns" camp were of course the right answers. If there was more moral culpability and better parenting and all the rest it wouldn't matter how many guns were available. But the fact is that these social changes, if they happen, will be a long time in the changing, and what do we do in the meantime? Is anyone content to say "oh, those kids would still be alive if they had only come along when we had solved this parenting thing" and leave it at that? It seems that for some of us guns are a big part of our identities, just as my musical instruments are a big part of mine. But if I thought that somehow registering instruments and restricting access to them (like a waiting period and background check, to name two) would save a life somewhere, why would I hesitate to co-operate? I might not like the idea with all of my heart, but the tip of the balance is clear. No, I have not changed my mind at all. I never advocated taking guns away from law-abiding non-felon citizens, but that seems to be what a lot of people heard. I tried hard to make myself clear, and I don't want to make this decision for everybody, but it should concern us that a large majority of Americans consistently tell opinion gatherers that they want some kind of gun control, and yet our lawmakers seem loathe to do it, and the reason why is painfully clear ($$$$$). Let's put our efforts together and hope that good will alone can solve this horrible problem, but if not, the legal system will work if enough people put enough effort into it. Right now a lot of cities are suing gun manufacturers. Surely not the best way in a perfect world, but it's a way that's available. Some will win, some will lose, but maybe altogether we can accomplish what the Southern Poverty Law Center did to the KKK. Maybe when the gun manufacturers get tired of being sued they will put their own pressure on the NRA and other irresponsible tunnelvision orgs. Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.

Chet W.

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: Bashem
Date: 29 May 99 - 11:27 AM

Local paper reports an improved detection device

that will aid in prevention of guns and knives being

brought to school and it is also sensitive enough

to detect copies of the TEN COMMANDMENTS ...

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 May 99 - 01:25 PM

Well, I'd like to see firearms banished altogether. I think we'd all be a lot safer. I don't have actual numbers to prove it, but I think it's safe to say that a large number of firearms deaths are accidental or done in the passion of the moment, caused by people who would do otherwise if they had a chance to think about it.

That's my opinion. Unfortunately, there are many good people who sincerely disagree with my point of view, and those people have as much right to their opinion as I have to mine. While these discussions may not serve to change opinions, perhaps they will help us understand those we disagree with. I think that most people on both sides of the gun control issue are sincere and well-meaning in their beliefs. I think it's important for us all to understand that, and to treat our opponents with respect.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: Bulldog
Date: 29 May 99 - 02:32 PM

I would agree with the banning of guns, if in fact it would save lives. Regretfully, criminals have the ability to make them. Consider the fact that the Pathans in Afghanistan make AK47 clones, on foot operated lathes, what chance do we in north America have of banning them at all? Most people have the finacial ability to purchase small lathes and drills, books with technical information, and the materials to manufacture them very efficiently. Not to mention the fact that the entire might of England, and the Soviet Union, could not disarm the Pathans or the IRA, makes interesting food for thought? I am in more danger of being killed by a Drunk or Dope user, driving a registered car, without a valid driving permit, and no insurance, than I am from gun weilding fanatics. That being said, Brown Bess muskets were the assault AK 47's 250 years ago. Reasonable gun laws are just. Unreasonable knee-jerk laws are useless and fuel the irrational emotion generated legislation that neither saves lives, nor prevents criminal violence. I do not subscribe to the idea everyone should carry a gun, but in the past it was considered essential to survival. We progress in time and technology but not wisdom. However, I am sure that I would have been safer in Teddy Roosevelts day, when everyone wore one. Cordially. Dave

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: John Hindsill
Date: 29 May 99 - 02:54 PM

Rick - That WAS a rhetorical question? Right?

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 29 May 99 - 04:19 PM

Nope. I was sincere in wanting to know if ANYONE had changed their mind (even slightly) about the issue as a result of the previous threads. A simple "yes, no, or maybe". Apparently not, at least so far, but thanks to the couple of folks who answered the question. I guess tragedy (on one's own doorstep) is the only thing that even has a chance to sway (some) minds on this issue. Words and articulate arguments will just never do it.

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 May 99 - 06:41 PM

Well, I started a bit worried that the control tendency could get out of hand. I am afraid that although people who love and particularly people who modify firearms worry me (I have a friend who used to shoot for the British Navy at Bisley - but whose real wizardry was with large bore at very long range - a sort of sixth sense for windage - and who used to modify his military weapons to alter jump and rip - he is as nutty as a fruitcake) the belief that you must neuter the disadvantaged has come to worry me more and more. So in fact I am now more anti-control than before although still in favour of some forms of control.

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: John Hindsill
Date: 29 May 99 - 08:26 PM

OK, Rick, having given my smart ass answer, I'll now bare my soul.

1) I have no gun, never have. Have fired a rifle on two occasions with lots of noise and not much effect. Do not plan on ever owning one.

2) I believe in the lawful possession of pistols, rifles and shotguns. Also think that to buy a weapon, testing and training should be required. I do not believe that possession of semi-automatic rifles, mega-clips and armor piercing ammo should be generally allowed.

3) I believe that weapons owners should be responsible for havoc caused by their weapons, whether personnally used, loaned or stolen.

4) The current hysteria against guns is just that. We Americans want a quick fix for everything. No matter the slight danger, no matter the crime, no matter the insensitivity of speech, etc., we want more regulation. I personally do not care to live in a place like Singapore or a fundamentalist Muslim country where we are very, very safe from each other, but lack personal freedom. (Hell, we probably couldn't even have this discussion.)

5) What we do need is for each of us to own our own actions...to accept personal responsibility, to think of the commonweal and not just our own convenience.

6) I'll close with my own rhetorical question. Can you even imagine a 21st century American family attempting to settle a wilderness of the 19th century? The first lawsuit would be against the manufacturer of the conestoga wagon for design failure and would escalate from there!

John

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 30 May 99 - 12:44 PM

John (and everyone else) thanks for the thoughts. Sadly, I think you are SO right, about the "quick fix". And that just isn't going to happen. It's FAR too polarized.
Actually, I should have mentioned in my opening post that I HAVE modified some of my thoughts on this issue, because of some of the mudcatters' postings. I won't get into it now though, 'cause we're "cat" sitting (the furry kind) for a friend who's on tour in British Columbia.
rick

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 30 May 99 - 12:58 PM

What's the matter, Rick? Cat got your tongue? ***big grin***

Big RiB

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: Chet W.
Date: 30 May 99 - 02:09 PM

Please, Rick, when you have time.

Chet W.

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: Susan of DT
Date: 31 May 99 - 09:17 AM

Rick- Words have power--I guess. I've seen opinions reinforced by words, but I'm hard pressed to recall anyone's established opinions changed by argument, virtual or otherwise. Which is not to say I don't try.

Did you notice any dead Fascists in the wake of Woodie's guitar?

dick greenhaus (who forgot to switch cookies)

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 31 May 99 - 10:21 AM

Watcha doin' with Susan's cookie?

Big RiB

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 31 May 99 - 12:04 PM

'Think I'm outta my depth here. Thanks for the feed back though.
rick

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: Bob Landry
Date: 31 May 99 - 10:06 PM

Rick, I have not changed my opinion, but I have learned a lot about the depth of people's convictions, and I will respect that.

John Hindsill's soul-baring comments, particularly those that deal with personal responsibility, are very similar to mine. I would add only that I would be very afraid if I ever came face to face with a gun held by someone who has little or no respect for the sanctity of life.

Bob

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 31 May 99 - 11:21 PM

I haven't changed my opinion but have come up with a more defined stand as a result of this thread. The right to own and keep a gun comes with incredible responsibility. It is my personal choice to own a gun and I have the responsibility to keep it safe and keep others safe from it. I can't waiver that responsibility by simply placing it out of reach. And the only way I can give up the reposibility is by giving up gun ownership.

This thought just came to me: The constitution is said by some to guaranntee the right to free travel and I suppose it could be argued that car ownership is a right guarannteed by the constitution. The states uphold this right provided a mandatory training and liscensing period is followed. Once a person is trained in it's use, they can buy any car they choose provided its registered and insured. I'm not a fan of registering anything but handguns but the insurance angle certainly puts a new spin on things.

Don

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 01 Jun 99 - 02:10 AM

I guess when I said "I'm out of my depth here", I was simplifying something that I've come to see (partly through Mudcatters postings) as far more complex than I'd thought. I've never owned a gun, very rarely ever shot one, and probably known only a very few people in Canada who have. I've been lucky enough to have never lived in a dangerous area, and if an armed person was to scare me it would most likely be a policeman having a very bad day. So for me, it's just never been an emotional issue. Other issues that I've voiced opinions on - like religion, or gays in the military, abortion, capital punishment, etc. seem to bring out my sense of logic, and reasoning, but no real table thumping emotion.
I can get VERY heated about cruelty, hypocracy, bigotry and poverty in a country as wealthy as Canada, but maybe that's because I think my little songs and attitudes can help those issues in some ways. One truth that I really have to face though, is that I mistrust ANYONE in power. I honestly believe I would sooner not exist, than to have to take orders from someone who's ambition led them to seek authority over me.
In the States this is an overwhelmingly emotional issue, and as much as I find it riveting, (and occasionally impossible to stay out of) I haven't really "walked the walk", so I don't really feel I have a valid contribution when it comes to "talking the talk".
Rick

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: Fadac
Date: 01 Jun 99 - 11:03 AM

Well, this might surprise some, but my mind has discovered a new way of looking at the issue. At least a little bit. Anybody here play Doom? Games like Doom, (The shoot em up kind) are the same sorts of games the military uses to train troops. So you take a 10 year old, give them two to six hours a day of Doom (or it's ilk.). Then it is small wonder that they have no remorse for killing in real time. In several years of game play, how many people does a Doom player kill?

So ban the game? If one could, YES! However the game is out there. The internet has hundreds of very vilont games avaible for any one with access to download and play. So banning the games is like banning the tide. Ain't gonna happen.

Possable soluition? Teach the kids (in very eary years) that games and real life are two differant things. When I was growing up, most boys had toy guns. We played cowboys and indians, WWII and all that stuff. However we knew that a toy gun was for play and a real gun was not. We all knew the differance and acted accordionly. Later in my play (age 11? or so.) I would not even point the toy gun directly at my friends. BTW we did get some gun safty in school. Along with fire safty, lost in the woods safty, and hide under your desk in case of a nuke strike safty.

Bottom line: MHO, Teach the differance between game play, and real world. The graphics in games is becoming very real. Too real. So it needs to be pointed out again and again, what you see on the TV or computer screen is NOT real life. Only a simulation.

I hope everyone had a quiet and peacfull weekend. We did and enjoyed every miniute.

Fadac

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: annamill
Date: 01 Jun 99 - 12:49 PM

Rick,

I posted a thread early in this guns discussion saying I really didn't have an opinion on gun control or having guns in the home. After reading all the postings in all the threads on guns I can honestly say that nothing has changed for me...well, that's not strickly true..I'm more confused than ever. I would not have a gun, but I don't know if it is right or wrong for someone else to have one. Oops..there's that faith in humanity again. Sorry.

annap

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 01 Jun 99 - 12:51 PM

Hi Anna, I know the feelin' well.

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: Kris
Date: 01 Jun 99 - 01:00 PM

Absolutely right Fadac. Until you point out the difference between real & virtual life, you can't predict how the kid is interpreting it. I was shocked when I found out that my kid (very young at the time) believed EVERYTHING on TV. That is horrendous when you think about it, and a very insidious thing too. So - how do you go about showing them the difference between games & life - and how can you tell at what level the info is going in, and at what levels the two things are still inter-linked? Hmmmmmm.

Kris

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Jun 99 - 01:43 PM

From personal experience and from many editorials I've written on the subject: the best way to teach kids the difference is to watch it with them, critique what they are seeing, explain why it is not realistic especially the commercials and easy half hour solutions to life's major problems; in other words teach them critical thinking.

Worked with mine. None of them automatically grab an excedrin for that "throbbing headache"; think they will somehow die if they don't get a Mickey D's burger right way; and they all three definitely are very well grounded in the real world, their responsibilities and consequences, full knowing the difference between Hollywood/TV make believe and what is real.

I am convinced this is mostly through our watching tv and movies with them and even saying no to certain programs and movies. None of them even had sega games etc. until they were adults.

kat

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: Fadac
Date: 01 Jun 99 - 03:22 PM

Kat,

Good job! Being there and explaning things to kids, is one of the biggest jobs in being a parent. I wonder what is going through some parents minds when I see young children on the streets at 10:30 or even 11:30 at night.

By young I mean under teen age. However I do think we are seeing the results of second generation of "Park the kids in front of the TV and let them watch Sesime St." There is nobody there to tell them that Big Bird and Barny arn't real.

For those who never played DOOM: Remember the old series on TV called the Untouchables? That show was considered the most violent ever produced. Doom makes it look like Pety(sp?) Coat Junction. In Doom you have to shoot (or stab) people. With the right sound card, you can hear the shots, the bullets hitting and the groan of the killed one as he falls. They even get the blood splater involved.

Fadac

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: Cara
Date: 01 Jun 99 - 03:34 PM

I too have been coming off a bit hysterical and extreme on these gun threads. Howevewr, I have also been reading everyone's responses and thoughts and trying not to be merely reactionary. But I still haven't changed my mind. Police, military personnel, and sportsmen under strictly regulated conditions are the only people who should have guns. I reiterate my belief that people who feel they need protection from the government (which scares me too sometimes) or their fellow citizens (ditto) should go make positive changes in their world. My hope is that someday this debate will fall away because we'll create a society that's safe enough and democratic enough that people forget why they ever wanted to own guns.

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: Jack (Who is called Jack)
Date: 01 Jun 99 - 04:18 PM

Interestingly, I am softening my anti-gun stance of late. At least as it regards the basic idea of guns being legal and obtainable. Recent research into the effect of gun availability on violent crime seems to suggest that allowing the general population to own and even carry personal firearms actually reduces crime. Of course as a good scientist and statistician I am waiting to see if this holds up under further scientific scrutiny (as opposed to emotional diatribe). At this point though, I am probably inclined to favor extremely strict prohibition against public ownership of mass-firepower class military assault weapons (Sure a flamethower would add palpability to your sense of personal space, but c'mon ).

I am also tempering my views in the wake of statistics from the FBI and other groups that study and track crime rates, since their research suggests that even though the reporting of crime, especially violent crime, is way up, crime itself has been steadily dropping for decades. Apparently this is true of ALL crime, violent or not, which begs the question, "What has increased? Violence itself or the fear of violence."

Also, with regard to the school shootings, I've heard a lot of discussion about proper parenting, video games, gun control, and 2 career housholds. All of these discussions contained a lot of good points. But one thing I rarely hear about is the role of biological mental health, particulary with regard to depression as a factor in these tragedies. Its all anthropology and sociology. Yet more and more evidence suggests that chronic major, biologically based depression does occur in a fraction of our children and adolescents. So while its expression can be attenuated by positive or negative environmental factors, some children are biologically predisposed to feelings of isolation and despair. Parents of these children often do all the things that they are supposed to do in terms of time, support and supervision and providing the usually sufficient opportunities for social development and growth, only to find that that growth and personal integration doesn't happen. I am not suggesting adolescent onset depression as a single point cause of these shooting sprees. Yet with so many of them associated with suicide I think it would be a mistake not to factor it into the equation.

One thing that has not been tempered by the recent debates is my general skepticism about global characterizations of any kind. Implications that we live in times that are 'so much different than at any other time in history', generally make me wince, as do statements regarding how immoral we've become compared to some recently passed 'golden age'. What nonsense! In the 1700's-1800's men of education and civil society were murdering each other in duels over some bizarre notions of honor. Senators had fistfights and beat each other near to death with canes during the pre-civil war arguements over slavery and secession. Bleeding Kansas didn't get its name because of its liberal beliefs. Does anybody really think that a high-school shooting spree is different from a KKK bombing of a church or synagogue, or that a drive by shooting over cocaine territory is different from the St Valentines day massacre, or the range wars between settlers and cattlemen? There is really nothing happening today that doesn't go back forever. Its no accident that the second story in the Bible involving human beings is the story of Cain and Abel. A man despairs over his lot compared to that of his brother. He feels rejected and isolated and he kills his brother out of jealous anger.

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: annamill
Date: 01 Jun 99 - 04:27 PM

Who was that masked man?

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: Chet W.
Date: 01 Jun 99 - 07:00 PM

I am grateful that the general atmosphere of this discussion has become more thoughtful. Again, though, whatever real solution we come up with will be maybe generations in the realizing. SO, what do we do in the meantime to keep such horrors as school shootings and neighborhood drive-bys from happening to (and being perpetrated by) today's kids? I can tell you that my students (in juvenile corrections) are not only growing in number, their admiration of all things violent is, if anything, more ardent than that of the ones I had a few years ago.

Chet W.

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: John OSh
Date: 01 Jun 99 - 07:35 PM

While I have not change my opinion(s) on this issue, it is nice to see various perspectives interacting in rational discussion (most of the time). I am against "extensive" gun control, but agree that select regulations should be in place (ie: mandatory training and certification w/ arms, background checks for felony convictions). One main issue I do have, stated on various threads before by others, is the knee jerk reaction many have after a tragedy such as Colorado. A decision made in extreme emotion, to one direction or the other on a subject, often leaves rational, well thought out action plans by the wayside.

Chet W., I admire your work w/ the juvie justice system. I was involed with various aspects of social work for several years, and saw too the growing issue of misconduct and lack of basic ethical values in this segment of society.

Please, instead of blaming social ills upon an "nuetral" object (ie: intend comes from the user), one must step up and address the issues behind the willingness of an individual to use that object in a violent manner.

Where are the cries against drug abuse (the drug trade from high level dealers to casual users factor heavily into gun crime statistics), lack of family structure (for any of the numerous reasons no longer providing a safe envirnment for the young to grow), poor to no civics education or responsibility on the part of all citizens, lack of a basic ethical framework being taught to the young (one which can cut across all faiths, creeds, nationalities, and races, such as "Respect each person as an individual, regardless of all differences of opinion or background).

Where is the outrage against the government for not enforcing the current laws on firearms.

Where is the true outrage against the egregous violence in the media and entertainment (if people were so outraged against it, they would not go see it or rent it. If they did not see it or rent it, a vast majority of it would disappear, as there would be no profit for the media/entertainment companies to make it.)

Guns are not the problem or solution, they just are. It is the individuals behind the guns who are the problem or solution.

Lets stand up against factors of society which encourage violence. It may be a long, slow process... but isn't it worth working toward.

And, after all, is that not what a great deal of folk music is about.

As Rosanna Rosanna Dana said, "I think there should be more violins in school"

"The darkness of dispair can never win so long as there one candle of hope burning" (Sorry, can't remember who said it)

John OSh

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: Chet W.
Date: 01 Jun 99 - 10:29 PM

John, I am outraged against the government, the media, and all the things that seem to outrage people on all sides of this discussion, but a thought occurred to me while I was reading your post above. If it's true that guns are neutral objects (and ideally, they would be, I suppose), then so must be drugs. A physician friend of mine, in fact, argues strongly in favor of legalizing all drugs. He points out rightly that people who want drugs will get them anyway, and that most of the very serious social problems, including crime, associated with the drugs would just automatically disappear. The actual production cost of an ounce of pure cocaine is about $25. That same ounce, cut and packaged will bring about $10,000 on the street. So, a $500 a day habit becomes a $12 a day habit (at least the addicts would not have to commit nearly as many crimes to pay for it) and all the profit is gone for the dealers, as is the necessity of violent turf battles. If you can't assign a moral characteristic to a gun, then surely you cannot do the same to a molecule. You can get morphine in the hospital after a surgery, but if you buy it and use it for pleasure it becomes a moral issue? Doesn't add up for me, although I would not go quite as far as my MD friend. But the popular taste for violence as entertainment is another matter, much more pervasive, and much harder to solve. Any thoughts?

Chet W.

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: John OSh
Date: 01 Jun 99 - 11:23 PM

Chet

Very true, drugs ARE neutral. In the hands of an MD, morphine can help improve, and even save lives. Alcohol, when used in moderation, is a fine recreation drug. But to someone who abuses alcohol, the effects on their, and their families lives can be disasterious (or the lives of strangers, if they get behind the wheel). Intresting fact re: drugs such as cocaine, approx. 80% is "recreational use" by generally middle and upper clesses (fine coke is too expensive for the poor folks, thats why those brilliant dealers can up w/ crack) Lets say we enforce the laws against the "rec" users instead of letting the vast majority get off w, a slap on the wrist. Demand (hopefully) will drop, price will drop and perhaps crime will drop...including those involving guns (A Harvard psych professor did a hypothetical model using various smaller citys with a stricter zero tolerance for any narco and extrapolated, can't remember his name)... Similarly regarding guns, strictly enforce current laws. If we really want to get the local communities involved - cut off federal funds if they don't comply. I have no problem locking up the assholes who misuse weapons even non-violently. But as the current generations in majority now are not going to change their opinions or politics, we must educate the next to stop issues such as Colorodo from happening. As Rome did not fall in a day, so America will not fall. Any deep, enduring change has to be built from the bottom up - from the young to grow into it and teach their children (not really appealing for us in the mean time). Shorter term solutions - actually one that people have bandied around here in the 'Cat. Encourage everyone to be more involved with their children, youth groups, anything to start providing a more positive, realistic image of the world. Possibly the worst thing I saw was one time in a theater, at a late showing of a movie which had violent content, a couple had their approx. 10 yr old son. It was after 11 pm, and the poor kid kept hiding his face as he was scared of the violent images. His father kept pulling his hands away, telling him to look and not be such a baby. My person opinion on the situation - the couple did not want to be "inconvenienced" if they could not find a babysitter, so they took their child with them. Parenthood is a responsibility and duty, and look out for the kid, not force a 10 year old to deal with these adult content images. Other than that spewing of my mouth, i don' treally have more to input. If I had all the answers, I could be the next Dr. Spock on child rearing (An intresting aside on your MD friend - George Will wrote an intreguing article about 8 or 9 yrs ago in Newsweek, I believe, on reprecussions of drug leagalization and the efforts of government attempting to deal w/ results. If you can find it, it gives an intresting slant on a suppossedly "simple" solution)

The price of freedom can be, at times, more costly one can believe. Yet can we afford to not pay the price?

John OSh

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: Fadac
Date: 02 Jun 99 - 10:20 AM

Good answers and questions all. Perhaps the making of crack, heroin, cocane, and LSD leagle would cut down on some problems and generate others. A good thing, it would strangle the gangs. (phrobition made the mafia.) Put the drugs under gvt. control, for quality, that should help the drug over dose problem. Then bust the heck out of someone that is driving under the influance of drugs. I assume that children will be alowed access to these drugs? Something like 40% of the drug users are under 18. The pushers get the kids doing drugs in grade school.

Kids are great followers. Perhaps if a rock star was busted for drugs, then prevented from performing for a year, no records, no tapes, no stage performances, no reruns of old tunes, no MTV. Then it just might become un-cool to do that stuff. Most any parent will tell you that lecturing a 17 year old, is like trying to teach a pig to sing... It just dosn't work. If they havn't got good sence at 17, well, they might get some at 25, but they will do it themselves. (Been on both sides of that one. )

One thing for sure, there is no easy answer. No "Leave it to Beaver", 20min answer to these problems.

Happy Wed.

Fadac

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: annamill
Date: 02 Jun 99 - 10:42 AM

John Osh,

After reading your last posting an idea, not fully formed, maybe way out there...

Maybe we should be licensing parents. If the problem is unhealthy, unhappy environments for these children, which I agree is one of the major problems, instead of blaming guns, movies (I loved Die Hard, all three of them; I'm not at all violent), TV, etc., maybe we should be looking at the chickens instead of the egg. I work in NY and I see kids with pain in their eyes all the time... and it hurts. They're born into a unfair, painful world with no idea how to get out. I wonder how their environment is allowed to exist and perpetuate this pain I try so hard to ignore, because there is nothing I can do. It's too late for them. They were born.

Just a thought...

annap

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: Bert
Date: 02 Jun 99 - 10:50 AM

Chet,

I remember seeing a TV show about Liverpool, England. They not only legalised drugs but prescribed them for free under the National Health Service.
Your friend was right, the gangs and crime quickly disappeared. With drugs available free, there was no profit to be had. However, the drugs were prescribed by a doctor and the 'patients' had to undergo therapy sessions in order to get them. The mystique had gone and for many it just wasn't worth the effort so the gave up the drugs.

This was a few years ago and I haven't heard anything since, so I don't know if the program is still active.

One thing that prevents such proven workable solutions from being implemented is that many polititians campaign using and 'anti crime ticket' and if these problems were solved they would lose this popular platform. And any polititian trying to implement such solutions would be branded as a druggie and a mob lover.

So these 'leaders' of ours create these artificial crimes so that they can run as crime fighting heroes.

Bert.

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: Uilleand
Date: 02 Jun 99 - 11:12 AM

What it really comes down to is personal responsibility, isn't it? There is no one thing that causes something like Littleton but a variety of factors. To just find one thing (guns, media, poor parenting, drugs, etc.) to blame relieves us of our personal responsibility. Even if we wanted to do something it feels too overwhelming to stand up to something as the media, the NRA, the government. It really begins in our own households and the little things we do. I am for personal freedom as much as anybody. I think it is important that government should have as little control as possible over our lives. But to make sure that happens we need to lead our lives responsibly. Do I feel like I should have the choice to own a gun, to decide over my own body, to drive, to drink, to use drugs, etc.? Of course. But as soon as we acknowledge that all of these things including our lives are really a priviledge as opposed to a right, maybe we will begin to act a little more responsibly. And the choices begin with each one of us. Living the lives we would like not just our own children to lead, but each and every child on this planet. Examples: To choose not to keep a gun as the weapon of choice in the household for now, as long as there are youngsters around, to choose not to go see that violent movie, because it encourages the movie industry to produce violence, to choose to spend time with your child instead of parking him/her in front of a TV or computer. Let's stop pretending that we are powerless to change this world. Six degrees of separation is no myth and the world wide web brings us ever closer. Do we really believe that each and everything we do, no matter how insignificant it may seem, has no implications for the rest of the world? Change happens slowly. But it begins at our own doorstep, not the media's, not the government's, not the NRA's. They are merely extensions of our own choices. Stop playing the blame game and choose to walk the walk for our children's sake.

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Jun 99 - 11:13 AM

The drug "problem" will never be legalised nor cease to exist unless people become aware of and demand a change in the involvment of our country in the big money politics that go along with it. Even then it might not happen; there is so much money involved and political careers involved, it is risky to rock the boat.

For anyone who doubts that our government is already a "pusher", I urge you to read "Deep Cover" by Michael Levine, Dell books, 1990. He was a former DEA group supervisor and international undercover agent, during the time our gov. was supplying the Contras. He calls America's war on drugs, "the biggest, costliest, most dangerous failure of American policy since Vietnam." Then, he backs it up with detailed recounting of major cases which he worked on and which our government fumbled to the point of loss and no prosecution of some of the biggest drug "lords" in the world.

I have a used paperback copy I will send out to anyone who wants to read it, as I am done with it.

Sorry, Rick, I know it is thread creep you were hoping to avoid.:-)

kat

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: John OSh
Date: 02 Jun 99 - 01:46 PM

A (hopefully) last thought on the topic above from me. I agree that personal responsibility for actions would be the ultimate most could hope for. When I was leading group therapy in a hospital, the one thing I always stressed to my patients is that an individual can only control how they act, not how another reacts to any situation. From guns to drugs to all facets of life, I can only hope that in the future, everyone will be willing to step forward into the role of their personal responsibility. Often it is hard, even on the little things. Excuses are the great apologists for refusing to take personal responsibilty. From 'it's too much trouble' to trying to shift blame for ones actions (does the Twinkie Defense ring any bells" In work and in life, I always have more respect for someone who can say "Yes, I screwed up!" or "No I did not do that task" and can present a valid reason for not doing it even if they don't explain (rather than excuse) then someone who often says "Well, so and so (or such and such) made me do it." No one can "force" you to do something... you always have a choice (although often the choice is painful or costly to make it seem there is no choice). Did great people in history blame others for their actions? Gandhi did not... MLK did not... and both paid a terrible cost for their choices.

Off my soap box now.

John OSh

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Jun 99 - 05:03 PM

Uilleand: Well said! You, too, JohnOsh!

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 02 Jun 99 - 06:39 PM

My dear Kat, you can creep into my threads any time you'd like.

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: Chet W.
Date: 02 Jun 99 - 07:40 PM

You guys are great to have discussions with. From the responses to my drug/gun analogy above, it seems that there is not a single serious point being made that is not the same for controlling drugs as for controlling guns. I want the doctor who prescribes drugs to be a trained professional and to give them out when they are needed. (In fact the paranoia about overprescribing is so great that many doctors I know will not even prescribe them when they are needed. My wife is right this minute in severe pain because her orthopedist puts his zone of comfort above his Hippocratic Oath.) I want the doctors to take the responsibility and use drugs with appropriate care. I want the same for people who have access to guns. Any real holes in this argument?

Chet W.

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Jun 99 - 09:21 PM

No holes, Chet, except when you get a doctor, like a family member's of mine, who is too damn lazy to say to no to her and a few other neurotics who think they have to have a pill for every little sniffle, which then can cause antobiotics to lose their efficacy for the rest of us who may not be able to risk any infection because of complications which could arise. Although, the one time I had strep and a former doctor of mine refused to prescribe because of his fear of overprescribing may have contributed to my leaky heart valve, so I guess they need to reach a happy meduim.

Doctors are close knit, in my experience. Sorry BK, if I am generalising, but it has been my experience, esp. in smaller towns, that incompetent drs. are allowed to carry on. Only ones who try alternative methods seem to get raked over the coals for not playing by the rules, at least here, in the "Wyoming of the last century still trying to catch up".

kat

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: Chet W.
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 06:31 PM

I know, I know, a close friend of mine nearly died at the hands of an overprescribing psychiatrist (she should have known better too), but the possibility of holding professionals accountable (particularly for what they do with potentially dangerous things) is good law. My friend's brother, an attorney, considered going after the psych, but a timely closing of shop influenced him to drop it. More important of course was concentrating on getting his sister well. She is doing great now thanks to NA and is a very fine artist and teacher. I still think it's a valid scheme, or schematic, to put gun purveyors and owners under the same obligation, same responsibility. Especially since they make drugs and drug merchants one of the reasons they have to have so many guns in the first place.

Chet W.

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 06:35 PM

Sorry, Chet, NA? And, I agree about holding them all acountable. Thanks, kat

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: Fadac
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 06:47 PM

Kat, Chet, Hmmm this sounds like my stand a few gun thingies ago.

By all means one should be held accountable for their actions. If you run someone down with your car, you should be held on a murder charge. It would be up to you to prove it was an accident.

"Gee officer I was late for my hair appointment, I just didn't see the motorcycle." This was the statment of a young lady that hit a friend of mine with her Chevy. She made an ILLEAGLE left turn in front of my friend. She didn't kill him, but he was in the hospital for a few weeks. Her fine, $250. She had no insurance.

Use a gun in a crime? Then forget parole, you then get to server all your time. No time off for anything.

Fadac

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 08:28 PM

Katlaughing,

NA = Narcotics Anonymous, a self-help fellowship for drug users based on NA. I'm basing that on the context.

Roger in Baltimore

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: Chet W.
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 08:48 PM

Kat, Yes indeed, Narcotics Anonymous, very like Alcoholics Anonymous, saved my dear friend's life. Hopefully to simplify what I was saying above, shouldn't we all be accountable for whatever we do that endangers others? Things like driving carefully and taking possession of a deadly weapon, hopefully legally, aren't these our responsibilities if and when we choose to do them? As for the law, in a perfect world we wouldn't need any because everyone would choose to accept their responsibilities (that's one of my versions), but seeing as how we've never had perfection and never will, shouldn't the law protect us from the negligent and those of bad faith? The legal system, like everything else, is far from perfect itself, but it's what we've got, and it can be made to work if we want it to bad enough. I have a hard time respecting an opinion that says "I will do this potentially dangerous thing and I will be careful, but I'll not accept all the responsibility if something goes wrong." I do try to keep my guitars out of the wrong hands.

Chet W.

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 10:07 PM

Chet and RiB, thanks for the clarification. I should've know that. My best friend is into her third year of living, eally living, because of AA.

Chet, I absolutely agree with you. Drivers are sometimes just as bad and irresponsible and all should be held accountable. Thank you for a good and sensible voice!

katlaughing

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: Fadac
Date: 04 Jun 99 - 10:43 AM

Chet, Are your guitars registered? After all, some people call them an AXE! (OhMYGOD!) And look at what Lizzy Borden did with an axe. (Just kidding.)

I wish there was some way to hold members of the leagle system responsiable for their actions. Like letting dangerous people out on little or no bail. There has been several cases in the past few years, where some nut goes and kills a group of people. Later we find out that the nut was on parole, or out on bail for some other vilont crime. Same way that drunk drivers alomst never kill anyone on their first offence. It is more normal for a DD to kill on his 10th time. This is where I think the Arabs have it right. 12 lashes with a cat-o-nine tails for 1st offence drunk driving.

Fadac

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: Chet W.
Date: 04 Jun 99 - 07:08 PM

Fadac, my friend I hope, I would gladly register my guitars if it would do any good. In fact, in time of need, I expect that an alder-body Stratocaster would be better than a lot of other blunt objects. But seriously you can have an impact on judges, legislators and the whole slimy lot, especially on a local level, if you and enough like-minded people make it clear to them that they'll have to look elsewhere for their votes next time. My students, who are already in jail, have told me stories lately that baffled them, like about how somebody they knew got caught with a gun at school and was rewarded with some serious years behind bars, whereas just weeks ago, in the same school and the same court with the same judge, another kid got a slap on the wrist for the exact same offense. They don't understand it but I do. The tragedies in Colorado and Georgia finally woke some people up, and they are letting the politicians know what they want. I have known so few legislators with any personal integrity, but even in South Carolina they know pissed-off voters when they see them. (our judges are appointed by the legislature, so they are, indirectly but surely, in need of voter support). If we don't let them hear from us, they'll sure as hell listen to somebody else. And right now they are listening to people who are fed up with the whole violence and weapon wonderland that we've found ourselves living in. Also, most states are doing away with parole, so a convict will serve every day of his/her sentence, whatever it is. I think toughening up drunk-driving laws is more difficult precisely because so many of our lawmakers like to have a few themselves before driving home. Our day will come.

Chet W.

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Jun 99 - 12:17 AM

One time when I was about 12 yrs old, my twin sisters who were about 18 and I were at home overnight, alone. We and our dog heard someone out in the yard. We lived out in the country had all of the windows open as it was summer. We very loudly spoke of calling the police, which we did, then we lined up behind the dog and crept down the stairs. I think each of them had an old rifle, and I brought up the rear with dad's old six string guitar. We were gonna do some damage if we caught anyone, even though I am sure the guns were unloaded and we were all really scared. The police showed up couldn't find anyone. When dad and mom came home the next day they found all of the gas had been siphoned out of dad's welding rig. I am glad I had that guitar ready to smash over someone's head!

kat

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 05 Jun 99 - 12:33 AM

Good lord Kat! I hope it wasn't an antique Gibson or Martin. A harmony maybe, a Steel National - Yeah, they can do some damage.

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: Chet W.
Date: 05 Jun 99 - 12:35 AM

See?

Chet W.

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: LEJ
Date: 05 Jun 99 - 08:26 PM

Kat...if you wreak half as much havoc with your guitar as I can with a meagre A key Blues Harp, you would have had them shakin in their boots. I have been known to physically eject scores of people from a room with my squealing impression of Little Walter.

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Jun 99 - 08:39 PM

Aw, Leej, I kin do that just dragging my hairy bow acrost da fiddle! Jist a lot o'caterwauling, ya ken wot I mean? LMAO!

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From:
Date: 06 Jun 99 - 08:00 PM

Chet, See, Guitars. Remember "El Kabong!"? My record is about two min. to clear a room with my concertina.

More trivia:

I have a bumper sticker on my car, it says" Pro Accordion and I vote." Stuck to the bumper sticker is the little sticker that they give you when you vote. It says' "I voted"...

Yup, if you really want to scare the pants off a politican, get a group together, and start printing voting leaflets. The Russians, at the height of the cold war, were more afraid of a xerox machine, than a machine gun. In fact xerox machines had to be registered and in securied locations.

What is begining to scare me a bit, is these very violent games. I have watched closely some of the playstatin stuff on TV. EGADS folks! These games make Itchy & Scratchy cartoons look darn right peacefull. Makes one wonder a bit, were the kids in Colorado surprised when they shot someone, that the person didn't sound like someone being shot in a video game?

Monday's comming.

Fadac

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: Chet W.
Date: 06 Jun 99 - 08:17 PM

I've cleared my share of rooms with music. At one unforgettable party we were hired for the room cleared in about five minutes when we started to play. Seems they thought they were getting something else. They were so rude about it, though, that we kept playing long enough to fulfill our contract and get paid. Good points about the xerox machines and the games. I just hope we're not back to blaming only the games (they deserve a lot of blame to my mind) or blaming everything else except the superavailability of guns.

Chet W.

Subject: RE: 'Gun Threads' Has one Cat changed their mind?
From: Fadac
Date: 07 Jun 99 - 10:49 AM

Chet, No, I'm not trying to point at any one thing. It is easy to blame the obvious. However in the 1950's & 60's handguns were avabile by mail. If you could send in a check you could get the gun. I also remember seeing barrels (wood type) full of surplus rifles, with a price tag of $10-15 your choice. So I would say that firearms were much more accessable then than now. Some schools even had shooting clubs. Jr.NRA marksmenship, came under the athletic dpt. However, I don't remember hearing about anyone taking a target rifle and shooing their kinfolks. I may have happend, but I don't remember hearing about it.

Of course that was then, this is now. It is too complext a problem to point to anyone thing and say that is the cause of all our problems. Avaiblity of firearms as a contrubiting factor? Perhaps, but firearms are way less avaible now than ever before in history. (for the USA anyway.)

In MHO, (my humble opinion), there are many factors pressing down on us. Here are some factors to consider:

1. TV Violance is down, there are guide lines for that now.

2. Divorce rate is way up, The family structure is falling apart at the seams. (Here in Ca. it takes two incomes to afford a stupid apartment.)

3. At the very bottom end, well I hate to say it, but I have seen it with my own eyes, welfair pays for babies out of wedlock. So sometimes you have 13 year old girls having babies so they can get more money. (I hope I don't get flamed for this paragraph, but I lived near Chicago, and you would see reports on TV of this happing. A friend of mine used to deliver the surplus food, and told me stories that would send shivers down your spine.) I only bring this up, to show that this generates disfunctional familes.

4. Then there is the avaiblity of Drugs, and the huge profets from there sales. So you have gangs battling over "turff'

5. The schools have turned to crap. The teachers can't teach, because their hands are tied by impossable regulations.

6. You can't hire kids to work any more. (I used to work in a gas station at the age of 9-14, part time, sometimes only for a day job to get some money for a show.)

7. Perhaps we just have too much stuff. Some folks find it strange that I'm willing to take three to five years to learn to play an accordion. The concept of working today and getting the reward much later, is being lost on some people.

8. Guns are NOT as avaible as in the past. (Yes I said that but I wanted it on this list.)

Well, thats a short list of what I think are some of the causes of our shooting problems. I think this leads to other problems too, but this is a gun thread.

So I don't think you could solve the probem with any of the above, I think they all have to be addressed, somehow.

Oh dear, I have rambled on...again.

Happy Monday.

Fadac