The Weekly Walkabout

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 09:47 PM

"It's only the really bad singers who buy into the kind of arbitrary, nonsensical ideas that you seem to cling to."

Don, you've heard of my "B-graders" theory of life? The A graders have the talent and knowledge, the B graders have only the persistence...

"they are having a great old time picking on "the dweeb""

Now I don't like Lenard Cohen as a general rule, but I do love 'Fisrt we take Manhattan, then we take New York'. I don't mind a lot of WAVs poetry. I haven't been criticising it. But when he starts on the 'ignorant B-grader crap' about technical stuff I have a passing interest in, and a lot of others have even more experience with, I have been merely trying to educate him. As he has demonstrated, he insists that he knows more than us. Listening to him perform, say his critics, reveals that he doesn't - even though he alleges that he has won 1st prizes for doing things his way.

"should simply look the other way when someone is obviously drowning, and if he doesn't explicitly call for help, just let the bugger drown. Would that satisfy the peanut gallery?"

Well this is more a case of some silly ignorant bugger standing in water up to his neck and refusing to shut up or sit down and drown...


"do you mean Irish music played on the English penny whistle"

This reveals someone who is not widely musically educated, sadly...


"breathing-type exercise I do: i.e., going through a 2-octave chromatic-scale on the tenor-recorder/English-flute, which takes about 40 seconds, on one breath."

1) Well for a start, the process of voice production/projection also involves the vocal chords. Playing a wind instrument to train vocal production is really only a sort of 'one handed voice exercise'... :-P
2) If you want to play the 'ball clanker singing games' I mentioned before, get serious and try to last at LEAST a minute... physically watch on closeup opera singers breathe while singing...
3) "tenor-recorder/English-flute" Bloody Hell! how creative!!! it's really called a 'fipple flute' as distinct from a 'flauto-traverso', and a recorder - with its origins in Europe (Purcell, Bach, Telemann and Vivaldi etc)- is no more deserving of being called an "English Flute" than any 'flauto traverso'... and a Tenor recorder (unless WAV can provide documentation to prove his claim) is no more prevalent or common than a Treble in England than anywhere else in Europe...

This also reveals someone who is not widely musically educated, sadly...

"Quavery voice, very iffy sense of pitch, no breath support, raspy quality in the voice."
"I think its more the sound of a cow with a Dachshund up its ass"
"Unless you want to be an object of pity and ridicule, for cryin' out loud, don't put your singing on the internet until you can at least sing on pitch and hold a steady, firm tone that doesn't wobble all over the place!"
"If you're going to do this, [and insist on boring/annoying your betters] you may as well learn to do it right."

Well said Don (and others).

~~~~~~~~~~~
"Catspaw would make a bullocky blush"

As as Aussie who knows a bullocky or two,

That statement is full of Bull...
~~~~~~~

"I started out, actually believing in principle, some of his notions."

So did I.

"But his posts and threads become more about self promotion of his beliefs he has written about on his website. Whenever any of us challenge him on specific points, most of the time he does not respond, or quotes ad infinitum from the same website, which is not really answering the question."

And he tries to put down any help from the experienced as only "misunderstanding his 'theories'".

"maybe WAV was deliberately doing the stuff he does here just for laughs...in which case he probably wouldn't mind people making fun of it, but lately I'm not so sure if that is the case. It gets a little hard to figure out exactly what is going on here."
"I had the impression he was just amusing himself."

But it's what he's doing with the other hand that is worrying some of us...

:-)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: Stu
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 04:26 AM

"Perhaps stigweard, Don Firth, irishenglish, Foolestroupe, and others should simply look the other way when someone is obviously drowning, and if he doesn't explicitly call for help, just let the bugger drown. Would that satisfy the peanut gallery?"

Ah, another post from some anonymous tosser hiding behind 'guest' sniping.

Well, read the threads listed again dicksplash - I've got far more respect for WAV who at least puts his name to his work than I'd ever have for some poltroon stirring the shite without committing any solid view to the discussion. Many have offered some excellent advice and offered well-meant support on the other Glastonbury thread to WAV, regardless of whether he listens or not.

As for bullying - well, that's not my intention but I will offer an opinion on work displayed for public consumption by such a shameless self-promoter as WAV. Whoever changed the word in WAV's poem is as big a pillock as you get on these boards, even the ever-present trolling gutless guests.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 05:50 AM

Given all that, I doubt the word-changing will happen again, thankfully.
"There have been times when I thought that maybe WAV was deliberately doing the stuff he does here just for laughs...in which case he probably wouldn't mind people making fun of it, but lately I'm not so sure if that is the case. It gets a little hard to figure out exactly what is going on here" (Little Hawk)...I admit to attempting some humour in my Blurb
("The style is mostly direct; and the substance informative, humorous and didactic"), but, basically, I'm someone GENUINELY heavily against our status quo, who is try to do something about it, in a shoestring.
To Don, I do read everything you post, and do agree with SOME of it. But reading your last few, you seem to think I'm stupid for not agreeing with you on everything; i.e., you're not just talking down, but talking a long-way down to someone who has achieved 4 tech. certificates and a Degree in Humanities.
To Foolestroupe: many in classical music still refer to the recorder as the English flute, and the transverse flute as the German flute (even though we will never know the "who?" or "where?" of their invention). And the penny whistle evolved, in England, from the English flageolette.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 06:43 AM

"To Foolestroupe: many in classical music still refer to the recorder as the English flute, and the transverse flute as the German flute (even though we will never know the "who?" or "where?" of their invention). And the penny whistle evolved, in England, from the English flageolette."

Complete bullshit. The last time those terms were in any popular use Cornwallis was going belly up at Yorktown. Not all things are English and as a matter of fact this includes you and the entire Flute family. The only nationality much used in combination with "flute" anymore is "French flute" which is another (and far less popular) way of referring to an open hole orchestral flute.

But as you seem to need to make all things English and of course better (not to mention original), perhaps you could expound upon: the English Blowjob, the English Buttfuck, the English Handjob, the English Jack-off (actually, that's you), the English Tittyfuck, etc.........................

btw......How do you do something inside a shoestring? I'd say its a typo......Or is that yet another illegal change to one of your posts?LOL

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 06:52 AM

Frankly, Spaw, I'd heard of the "French horn" but not the "French flute" you mention; and I don't pardon your French...where does the rain in Spain tend to fall?...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 06:59 AM

What color is an orange? How long do you cook a 3 minute egg?

Or did you mean it doesn't rain in Spain since rain is purely and traditionally English?

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 07:25 AM

French flute

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 07:26 AM

And the penny whistle evolved, in England, from the English flageolette

The key to this one is in the name, WAV, which Generation (still?) use, somewhat confusingly, for their whistles. In any case the penny whistle most certainly did not evolve from the Flageolette, which is an 18th (?) century contrivance albeit of a similar lineage to the internationally ubiquitous whistle flute of which the British penny / tin whistle is but one manifestation. I have an early 20th century German example (in E!) of a tin whistle made in the traditional manner still used by Clarkes. Once again, WAV, you're twisting the facts to fit your tiresome nationalistic theory, thus casting your academic credentials into further shadow. There are English Jew's Harps too, very distinct in their rather robust construction, albeit dating from the 19th century, and quite possibly known as Trumps; just as in Italy they're known as Scacciapensieri, in Germany Maultrommel etc. etc. In any case, the penny whistle, like the Jew's Harp, is no respector of national boundaries.   

And as for the English Tittyfuck, Catspaw, in England it's commonly known as Spanish Sex (hence WAV's where does the rain in Spain tend to fall? presumably), or, as famously immortalised by Glen Miller, String of Pearls. In Tyneside I've heard it referred to as a Longbenton Tit-wank.

Insane Beard, aka Sedayne.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 07:40 AM

"And the penny whistle evolved, in England, from the English flageolette"

And there WAV goes again... ever heard of 'The Boy Who Cried Wolf'? It ended up that nobody believed him.

Look, I'm not making this up, you know.

There are far too many widely educated people here - in almost ANY field of knowledge (since many people aprat form professional musos also have music as a hobby, while earning their pay from Street Sweepers to Rocket Scientists) to tolerate people like WAV from just 'making it up as they go along'.

You are rapidly digging yourself into a hole of ridicule and no respect, mate!

Truly, it is better to keep one's mouth closed and be thought a Fool, that to open it and remove all doubt!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 07:45 AM

I thought it was my fellow goatee from your earlier post, IB. I found the site where I'd read about the whistle, whilst looking for an instrument 3 years ago - here (without "twisting the facts").

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 08:03 AM

What that website says is VERY different from

""And the penny whistle evolved, in England, from the English flageolette""

That is only YOUR conclusion as to its meaning WAV.


http://www.thewhistleshop.com/catalog/whistles/inexpensive/Clarke/blackclarke/clarke.htm
"was a talented amateur musician and played a wooden whistle. He developed the idea of copying his whistle but used tinplate to do so. He made the block in the mouthpiece out of wood "

Your link says
" Early in the 19th century, English-made whistles started to appear with the six finger hole arrangement that we see today (also some with the traditional thumb hole and keys). In 1843, Robert Clarke of England made the first "Tinwhistle", borrowing the design from a wooden whistle that he owned. "

Now you may well believe that means that 'the tin whistle was an English invention'...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 08:47 AM

(without "twisting the facts")

Okay then - misreading them and (deliberately?) misunderstanding them to fit your increasingly perplexing ideas on Englishness. Scholarship doesn't start, or even end, with conclusions, WAV - just the facts, which need constant analysis, understanding & scrutiny, an approach not altogether conducive to harbouring pet theories which, obviously in your case, just get in the way of seeing things as they actually are.

I do not doubt that the tin whistle as we know it today is essentially the idea of Robert Clarke, but to call the tin whistle an English instrument would be as absurd as calling the Saxophone a Belgian one. The key to this lies not in the hardware, rather in the cultural software that gives musical instruments their meaning and identity. When one thinks of tin whistles, one immediately thinks of traditional Irish music, the jigs, reels & airs to which the whistle is naturally suited; just as when one thinks of Saxophones, one thinks of African-American jazz - the playing of John Coltrane, John Gilmore, Rahsaan Roland Kirk et al, whose work would be inconceivable without the ingenuity of the inventive Belgian, just as their work would have been inconceivable to him! In other words - Adolphe Sax came up with the hardware, but it took the genius of the African-American musicians to give it its musical voice, without which I dare say the saxophone would be as obscure as the rest of his innumerable musical hybrids and inventions.

Your nice multi-cultural world doesn't consist of isolated cells festering away in their indigenous ethnically pure in-bred idylls, rather a seething mass of collective interactivity, diversely manifesting & cross-pollinating across the planet as human history, both cultural and political, collective and individual, takes its wondrous course.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 09:11 AM

...till we all blend into the one boring capitalist culture, IB?...not if I can help it - I really do love the world being multicultural.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 09:32 AM

... whereas in your ideology (as far as I understand it from your previous posts), all English people should be playing the same English musical instruments, singing the same style of folk songs and hymns, dancing the same English dances, only visiting other nation's cultures as an onlooker.

Just because cultures mix, doesnt necessarily mean that any culture is lost, quite the opposite happens in fact, cultures become enriched, new and exciting music, dance and art comes into being.

We should all celebrate what is local to us, but traditions change and evolve. Traditions that dont evolve often die out.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 09:41 AM

", quite the opposite happens in fact, cultures become enriched, new and exciting music, dance and art comes into being"

Damn - now WAV can't play 'the English Penny Whistle' - because its ancestor was a corrupting FOREIGN INFLUENCE...

Well if he plays like he sings...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 10:07 AM

I do indeed try to play like I sing, and sing like I play, Foolestoupe - good or bad at it, that's my thing, within the English tradition. And, in my opinion, the (chromatic) tenor recorder is a bit better for this task than the penny whistle, which I enjoy listening to others play.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: mandotim
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 10:34 AM

Er... WAV, how do you define an 'English' tenor recorder? Given that the recorder is generally supposed to have originated in central Europe, then developed from the Renaissance to the Baroque version before entering wider use in England and the USA? I'd be interested in your research on this, as my brief enquiry suggests that the recorder isn't really an English instrument at all, depite the fact that you play one.
I look forward to your reply, since you ducked my last question on another thread.
Tim

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 11:00 AM

WAV - there's nothing in the least bit traditional about chromaticism, on the contrary; the chromatic tempered scale has been used in the oppression and subjugation of indigenous musical systems & cultures the world over (including those of the British Isles) so what sort of bland boring corporate global musicality are you representing by playing an instrument which a) in in no way shape or form traditional to traditional English music and b) which represents the very music system by which other world & ethnic musics are so ruthlessly impoverished. There is nothing either traditional or English about this instrument; it is vile, unnatural & perverse, and plastic to boot, so donate the fecking thing to your nearest charity shop and invest in a nice Clarke's C (the original key) or one of Dave Shaw's more developed versions of the Clarke's concept, still manufactured, I believe, in County Durham...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 11:01 AM

I said, just above, Mondotim, that we don't know where the recorder was invented, but, for centuries it has also been known as the English flute (here, e.g.), and I have it as one of my INSTRUMENTS OF (OR CLOSELY ASSOCIATED WITH) ENGLAND.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 11:29 AM

This thread is becoming mostly just an excercise in various people trying to "one-up" the other and score some kind of petty verbal victory over them. The only respect in which it's unusual is that WAV is on one side and almost everyone else is on the other side. Other than that it's the normal vain and endless trail of ego-jousting that we see going on all the time on contentious threads here.

Nothing to get excited about, in other words... ;-)

So, may I join the fun too and take a petty shot at someone?

Ahem. I shall now take a shot at Foolestroupe.

****

Foolestroupe, the Leonard Cohen song is not 'First we take Manhattan, then we take New York'. It is 'First we take Manhattan, then we take Berlin'.

And if I may paraphrase your own remarks to WAV (after correcting your many typos):

There are far too many widely educated people here - in almost ANY field of knowledge (since many people apart from professional musos (?) also have music as a hobby, while earning their pay from Street Sweepers to Rocket Scientists) to tolerate people like you, Foolestroupe, from just 'making it up as they go along'.

You are rapidly digging yourself into a hole of ridicule and no respect, mate!

Truly, it is better to keep one's mouth closed and be thought a Fool, that to open it and remove all doubt!

****

Heh! Now, wasn't that petty? Oh my, but it was such fun. MMMM...mmm!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 11:30 AM

"there's nothing in the least bit traditional about chromaticism" (IB)and I never said there was; I said, rather, that I enjoy playing the tenor recorder (brought back as a student, folk, as well as early music, instrument, early last century, mainly by English and Germans - we now have both English and German fingering), and listening to others play the penny whistle. (My total repertoire now invloves 6/7 keys - I only transpose when the score goes below middle C - the tenor's lowest note.)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 11:40 AM

I have attempted to master the pennywhistle on a couple of occasions. I got about as far as the front hallway entrance. I should think that true mastery of this instrument could only be achieved by practicing relentlessly for a period of several months or perhaps even a year. If one reached the point where one could play Mozart accurately and with style on the Pennywhistle whilst hanging upsidedown suspended by one foot over a pit of alligators and still never miss a single note, well...then one would have arrived, as it were.

This I have not done. Nor do I expect to. For one thing, alligators are expensive. For another, the result wouldn't really be worth the effort, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 11:53 AM

...so we won't be enjoying Little Hawk playing the penny like a skylark, then!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 11:56 AM

No, I expect I'll stick with guitar, harmonica, and keyboard. ;-) Pennywhistle is nice, though. I enjoy hearing them.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 12:05 PM

I play recorder, and I was interested to see Walkabout's term 'English flute.' Sure enough, my dictionary simply says:

English flute. Music. a recorder

I HAVE heard the term German flute for a transverse flute. In fact, I have just attended an early music workshop where we saw the cover for a book of Scottish music published in the 18th C and suitable for 'German flute.' The music was published in Paris.

(Henry the VIII, the English king, was a recorder player.)

Walkabouts, I went to your page and listened. I like the pretty tune for Tees and Tyneside.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 12:13 PM

brought back as a student, folk, as well as early music, instrument, early last century

You persist in this notion that the recorder was brought back as a folk instrument, which is most clearly not the case, despite the exceptions I've pointed out elsewhere. The main motivation for this singular piece of resurrectionism was in the revival of Early Music, which is not folk music, though the development & exploration of various early & medieval repertoires has certainly had an impact on certain folkish artistes, including Shirley Collins, The Amazing Bondel, and the Third Ear Band, all of whom used recorders in their music. That it became a student / kids instrument was entirely due to the cheapness of mass produced plastic instruments the intention being to give a grounding in basic music theory before moving on to a proper woodwind instrument. The main effect of this is that countless thousands of kids were put of music for life, and left with the impression that the recorder is a toy!

The recorder is no toy, nor is a folk instrument; rather it is a highly developed dynamic instrument designed for extremes of solo virtuosity. Watchers of BBC4's recent Early Music programme can't fail to have been impressed by the playing of David Tennant look-alike Piers Adam in his ensemble Red Priest. A David Munrow for our age perhaps? Those who didn't see it, check this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8wL1AR7iqo

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 01:58 PM

I watched that Early Music series the first showing, IB, and, I agree, Piers Adam is an amazing recorder player.
Thanks Leeneia - I'll be re-loading that track soon, as I've added a simple (melody only) recorder intro. to it...just a but more amateur engineering to be done to my Audacity-software recording of it.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: GUEST,Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 02:01 PM

I was wondering if the fact that Piers Adam may or may not look like David Tennant is important in regards to Adam's playing ability.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 02:53 PM

". . . you're not just talking down, but talking a long-way down to someone who has achieved 4 tech. certificates and a Degree in Humanities."

Frankly, WAV, I don't give a billy hoot how many certificates and degrees you have in however many fields. That doesn't alter that fact that you talk a great deal of unmitigated blather and your musical efforts are greatly in need of much improvement, especially before trying to inflict them on an unsuspecting public. And if you want to compare musical educations, I'm quite sure I could roll over you like a Sherman tank.

Apparently you think I'm talking down to you because, rather than being sufficiently worshipful, I—and others—have tried to give you some frank and honest criticism along with some helpful suggestions. But it appears your God-complex requires you to take offense rather than even consider that you might gain a great deal by at least listening to what people are good enough to offer you.

You see, I made the mistake of assuming that you are seriously interested in singing traditional songs.

FYI:    The French horn is not French, it is an English hunting horn with valves. The English horn is not a horn, it is a woodwind.

How's this for cultural pollution? Spanish guitar, Chinese flute, and an "English flute (??):"      CLICKY.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 03:21 PM

Whoo-Hoo! Impressive rebuttal, Don. Perhaps WAV will crawl away and hang himself now, eh? ;-)

What you don't realize, though, is that Chongo Chimp and William Shatner both have educational credentials that would blow yours right out of the water like an overripe melon getting hit by a cruise missile. Yesirree. I'd list them all here (first Chongo's, then Shatner's), but I'm simply too compassionate to engage in that sort of acute psychological bludgeoning of another human being.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: s&r
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 04:24 PM

"Humanitiess graduates are attractive to many employers because of their personal transferable skills rather than the specific skills that they have gained during their degree course. Many of the skills that are gained on a humanities degree are highly sought after in almost every job. These skills include:

ability to write well in a variety of styles.
to organise your work and meet tight deadlines.
to convey meaning precisely.
to summarise, argue and debate.
to research, select, analyse, organise and present information.
to think logically."

From the Univesity of Kent

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 05:35 PM

When it comes to formal musical education, Don, you may well "Sherman tank" me, as I don't have any: my poetry and music are both "self-taught" - for want of a better term, becuase, informally, of course I've learnt from others (TV - e.g. "Musicians Channel", mentioned before; radio; folk clubs; web articles and forums; books; etc.). But I'm happy that I've stuck with just the top-line melodies of songs and hymns, which I can now, just about, write as well as read (it's more folkie to play by ear but, still, better to know both ways, I feel - perhaps we can agree on that much?).

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 06:27 PM

The French horn is not French, it is an English hunting horn with valves

Maybe not. The English hunting horn is a small trumpet used for sounding basic calls by fox hunters, like this one here. The horn used by French hunters is a coiled natural horn, played in ensembles & creating some of the most thrilling music you're ever likely to hear - I've got a record of it somewhere, but for a taste see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOeyQUmkQjs. Never anything quite like this in England!

I was wondering if the fact that Piers Adam may or may not look like David Tennant is important in regards to Adam's playing ability.

I shouldn't think so, but it gives him a fashionability that I doubt will hurt his career any. My favourite recorder player remains, now & forever, Woody Allen look-alike Rene Clemencic...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 08:57 PM

I'm no authority on brass instruments, IB. The comment about the French horn being an English hunting horn with valves was something told to me over coffee one evening by a French horn player in the Seattle Symphony. He also told me about the English "horn" sailing under false colors. He had a whole list of little verbal anomalies like that having to do with music.

By the way, regarding recorder players, how about Michala Petri? This piece starts kind of slow, but about a minute into it, she shifts gears.

Yes, WAV, we can agree on that. It is, indeed, better to learn both ways.

And Little Hawk, I don't want WAV to crawl away and hang himself. That plays hell with one's ability to sing, and all along I've been trying to jar him into taking a bit of advice and learn how. When it comes to singing, hanging oneself is a bit unproductive (although I could make a list of singers who. . . .).

And Chongo Chimp and William Shatner? Well, if it comes to music (which is what I was talking about, but I am a true Renaissance man, so my range of knowledge verges on the universal), I have yet to hear a chimpanzee who could sing for sour owl jowls, and I've heard Shatner's record! I suffered for a time from post-traumatic stress syndrome, but I'm stronger now and fully prepared, so—bring 'em on!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 09:04 PM

"Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" as sung by Captain Kirk!??

I still have an urge to dive under my bed, grabbling the sheets as I go and stuffing them into my ears when I even think about it!

"Oh, nurse!"

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 09:53 PM

Littel Hack

I do apologize for any typos - not using my usual machine at the moment, and my MMD sometimes causes me to miss some.

[See - that's using the 'don't beat up on a cripple argument!"] :-)

I do thank you for spelling my name correctly! - unlike WAV - who I have not yet criticised for that... :-P

Now in the Great Tradition of Mudcat Debates...

Moving right along...


"I've learnt from others (TV - e.g. "Musicians Channel", mentioned before; radio; folk clubs; web articles and forums; books; etc.)"

This is fact the problem with your 'self education' - to quote the site
The Amazing Recorder is misleading as to claim that 'English Recorders' are what you play. Bet your chromatic instrument has a thumb hole... Do you know if any of King Henry VIII of England's collection of 47 recorders [12 tone chromatic?] have thumb holes, or where they just 8 tone diatonic 'whistles'?

Since you isnist that YOU are the only one correct with your theories formed on misinterpertations of things better known by those with more 'Sherman Tank' type education, you might want to consider not telling them that THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT. Damn, anothter typo - hit the shift lock - but I'll leave the emphasis...


"it's more folkie to play by ear"

Ahhhhhhh.... Documentation?

Ok, I get it now - never let the facts spoil a good argument in the Mudcat BS threads...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 11:13 PM

I just have to comment on that Red Priest Four Seasons video. I found it to be incredibly pretentious and played like a carnival ride. That guy doesn't seem to understand the soul of the instrument at all. His playing is all flashes and parlor tricks with no real depth or beauty.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 11:38 PM

This, in my opinion, is a good use of recorders...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcp164LBWfQ

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 12:00 AM

...or, if like me, you prefer circus music...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWpbeSzPPqM&feature=related

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 12:16 AM

Well, it takes time to build up a taste for Shatner's unusual style of vocal delivery, Don.

Sort of a bit like Dylan, I guess...but a good deal moreso. ;-)

Now then, there's Tom Waites. I understand he's a brilliant songwriter and all that...but his voice? Uh...well...I'd rather listen to a baboon's voice put through a distortion box, frankly. Just a matter of personal taste.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 12:17 AM

Don Firth,

I am sure that if some one ever asks, that your Sherman-Tank-like Musical knowledge would be appreciated. The difficulty seems to be that your approach to criticism is also akin to a small under armed, under armored world war two vintage, rusty, tank dropping in, uninvited to a tea party. The problem is that once the tea is spilled and the porcelain shattered, the party is probably not interested in your opinion of the brew. It is also hard to hear the conversation over the sound of the engine.

WAV has done nothing to deserve your constant barrage of insults. Sherman Tank class musical knowledge is impressive indeed, but bear in mind that that The Mudcat has a number of A-10 tank killers who have the grace to keep their criticism to themselves unless asked and then who have the sense not to insult those who won't listen. This is a musical forum, not a contest to see whose barrel is the largest.

I am sure that you will take this exactly as it is intended. I mean to criticize your method of criticism in the same way that you are criticizing WAV's music. Indeed, my opinion of your ability to criticize is on a close par with your opinion of his music.

You need not reply to this. I am not interested in what you have to say to me. Especially if it is more of this weak, childish, name calling and ill tempered criticism.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 12:32 AM

That's precisely the same argument I keep having with Ron Davies, Jack...only on the political threads. ;-)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 12:55 AM

Well actually, I don't think Don was anywhere as Tank-like as Spaw about WAV's performance skills... just a little more passionate and detailed as to what would improve him.

Now WAV said

"I do indeed try to play like I sing, and sing like I play, Foolestoupe¹ - good or bad at it, that's my thing, within the English tradition"

- which may well give the impression that he cares NOT about quality - indeed based on the amount of self promotion of his website and the ... er, interesting musical concepts thereon, he seems far more interested in quantity.

Now the 'source singers and players' of trad folk music may well be rather 'inept' musically due to lack of performance training skills, but remember that it is their CONTENT that we 'worship', not the lousy performance! I seem to get the impression from WAV, that he reveres the lousy performance more than the content - which if he is just repeating their limited content in the same lousy performance skills limied style, is not by itself sufficiently unique that he should be equated 'god-status' with them...

Well if he insists on refusing to change/improve his performance skills because he sincerely believes that lousy perfromance skills are part of the unique and interesting 'tradition' that he is promoting, fine.... but as others have said - if you put yourself up for public performance and can't cope with negative feedback, then don't cry...

I can be good or bad at performance too - Once grabbed a fistful of wrong Bass buttons - one row off! :-) so had to stop, say, "sorry about that, playing the wrong buttons, I'll start again" - and the applause afterward (when I finished, not for saying that!) was no less... :-)

I remember performing in front of some elderly long term (Om-pah-pah style) Piano Accordion players who criticised my use of just a single keyboard reed in parts as 'not real Piano Accordion music style' and was told to stop doing that if I wanted to improve .... GAAAAAHHHH! :-)

People have different ideas... some of them VERY strange...

I am not 'attacking WAV' because I enjoy picking on him (can't speak for others!) but because I used to be that bad once myself... :-)


¹ sic... a wrong spelling of my handle, but I haven't yet criticised him for that... :-)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 01:06 AM

Thank you far sharing that, Jack. I shall give it all the consideration it is due.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weakly Wackabout
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 01:16 AM

From another thread in which WAV stunned regaled us with his profund and extensive musical knowledge and experiecnce.

"I think you're all being a little harsh on old WAV, after all he has been into folk music for over two years now."

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 01:25 AM

I just have one more thing I want to say about Piers Adam. From what I've seen of him, I would say that Piers Adam is to the recorder what Michael Flatly is to Irish Step Dancing.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 05:27 AM

Thanks for those clips, CC - one of those chaps seems to be playing a plastic recorder; the rest wood, which I've never tried...I hear, though, that wooden recorders are harder to maintain, but easier to play...? To FT, I do keep trying to play the 50 or so top-line melodies that make-up my repertoire as well as I can. And I've corrected that out of date "two years" line on my site - it was 2004 when I first turned-up at a folk club (yes, a relatively short-time, to save you saying it), in Newcastle, having moved from Lancashire, where I was born, in 2001...

THE WEEKLY WALKABOUT, E.G.

Poem 118 of 230: WHALLEY ABBEY...WHAT TALES? - AUTUMN 2000

Cistercian monks have clearly been -
    Their Abbey's ruins can still be seen;
And, sounding for centuries before,
    Calder flows have passed - seeking the shore.
Lords of the grounds have, more lately, stayed -
    Their manor houses reused and unscathed.
Through beautiful gardens insects fly -
    The ruins of folk just a pass-by;
And, by viaduct, trains pass above -
    Folk thereby viewing a town I love.
Anglers and C. of E. delegates,
    Hikers and tourists, have crossed the gates...
Opportunistic masons, kings-men,
    Model makers, Turner, and men who pen...
Perhaps the witches came down from the hill,
    And do ghosts haunt - still questing their fill..?

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 06:06 AM

"I hear, though, that wooden recorders are harder to maintain, but easier to play."

My AUD$300 pear wood one - bought ages ago - you have to 'play them in' when new (only short periods at first, gradually increasing the total daily playing time) and if you don't play them for a few weeks, start again the same too. You need to get the internal humidity level up slowly so the wood will absorb it slowly and not split. You also need to oil them occassionally, for the same reasons.

The $2 plastic cheapie is actually very easy to play, and only needs knocking the dust and cockaroaches out before playing.

Like many instruments - recorders are easy to play, but difficult to play well! In other words, not hard to get a sound, but hard work to get real music! :-)

The trick with the cheapies, same as with whistles, is that beginners usually blow too hard. Remember when 'Don The Tank' and other were trying to tell you about 'breath support'? You actually need BETTER breath support to play the cheapies, than the good ones, because the cheapies will make a horrible squeaking sound that most school recorder bands seem to have... But if you can't play the cheapies to sound like real music, then you will just feel that you have wasted the money!

Practice, Practice, Practice!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 06:11 AM

... and before anyone else posts...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 06:11 AM

200!