Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...

Subject: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 01:57 PM

English folk is NOT inferior to American pop/rock and Glastonbury should revolve into a folk festival. As I've said here -
Traditions exist due to folks being impressed by how THEIR forebears did things; and, accordingly, taking this attitude is, I feel, vital for the cause of maintaining a nice multicultural-world, against the forces of globalisation/Americanisation – a cause which U.S. citizens themselves should support.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 02:25 PM

Two words: Fuck Off

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Chris Green
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 02:32 PM

It's Michael Eavis' festival and land, so he gets to book who he wants. If you look at the line-up, you'll see a fair amount of folk acts are playing the Avalon Stage. There's also pop, rock, jazz and all sorts of other types of music going on. We call that diversity. Most people think that's a good and desirable thing.

And for what it's worth, I wholeheartedly agree with the first half of your opening statement. However, a lot of people who go to Glastonbury clearly don't (or more probably don't give a toss either way). It's not up to you, me or anyone else to tell them they're wrong or that they have to listen to such and such a genre instead. We call that freedom of choice. Again, most people think that's a good and desirable thing.

As for the second half, the idea that we should all pressure Mr Eavis into booking bands such as the one that I play with purely on the grounds that we're English and play English music is frankly an insult to those bands. I'd much prefer to be booked because a festival organiser likes our music and thinks their audience will too, rather than be part of some half-arsed quota system. We call that cultural fascism. Most people think that's a bad and undesirable thing.

Sincerely

Chris Green from Isambarde

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 02:45 PM

...why not have mostly English folk acts, Chris, and a few American guests (among others), such as Neil Diamond, whose American music I do enjoy LISTENING to, as well as some Amerindian performers, such as those on my myspace Top Friends?...

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Mr Red
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 02:51 PM

Glastonbury is not a folk festival.

Maybe it once was but it ain't now. They don't want it to be.

Why are we discussing it in the context of folk?

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Chris Green
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 03:08 PM

Why not indeed? However, as I've already pointed out, the final decision rests with Mr Eavis. You say if you were running Glastonbury, you'd book your favourite English acts plus a few others from elsewhere that you like listening to. So why not start your own festival? Then you'd have complete control over who did and didn't play and you'd get to hear all your favourite bands. Plus, if you made a bit of money out of it for yourself, then you'd actually have been paid to listen to them!

What I'm trying to get at is that Michael Eavis is not running Glastonbury as a public service for the good of the nation as a whole. He's running it as a private initiative for a variety of reasons. As it is a private initiative, one of its main motivations is to make money for the organiser. Accordingly, he's gonna book bands who will pull in lots of people. Regrettably, not many trad English folk bands fit into this category.

All festivals have to turn a profit to survive. Most folk festivals, being run and staffed by volunteers, will plough that profit into making next year bigger and better. Maybe Michael Eavis does the same. Maybe he keeps it all in a mattress under his bed. Maybe he blows it all on the horses. I don't know as it's not my business how he runs his festival or who he books. And guess what? It's not your business either....

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 03:28 PM

In the 50s and 60s, as you'll know, Chris, there was a much bigger percentage of English who did, indeed, prefer the practise/performance of English folk to American pop/rock - we need to go back to there, and beyond!..the ocean is made of many drops.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: lady penelope
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 04:07 PM

Um... Glastonbury is just one festival. Nobody makes you go or watch it. There are a damn site more folk festivals than rock/pop festivals every year. I think WAV needs to get a tiny grip on their knicker elastic...

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 04:25 PM

Cruel Folk were playing the folk tent there this year and they do play some English folk music (1954 definition)

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 04:30 PM

I'm not sure what you mean by "their knicker elastic", fair Lady, but I like the reminder that "there are a damn site more folk festivals than rock/pop festivals every year."

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Chris Green
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 05:30 PM

'We need to go back there'.

I agree with you that the 50s and 60s were halcyon days for trad music from the British Isles (from what I'm told - I was born in 1977!) It'd be great to see a second folk revival along those lines and I think we're actually experiencing one of sorts as i write. As Lady Penelope pointed out there ARE a damn sight more folk festivals than rock/pop festivals. I can't remember folk music ever being covered as much in the media as it is now. But let's face it, even back in the 50s, 60s and 70s it was hardly mainstream compared to, say, the Beatles or the Stones. Or, to pick two particularly piss-poor examples, the Bay City Rollers or the BeeGees.

Making the Glastonbury Festival into some sort of quota-based 'Anglicana Fair' (even if such a thing were possible) is only going to reinforce the view of many people that folk can't survive without external funding and the goalposts being shifted in its favour. Education and outreach (in schools, for example) is a different matter, but you're talking about a private event for paying punters.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Zen
Date: 29 Jun 08 - 07:19 PM

...why not have mostly English folk acts
_________________

Glastonbury is not a folk festival.

Maybe it once was but it ain't now. They don't want it to be.
_________________

I was one of the 1500 or so people at the first Glastonbury in 1970. It wasn't a folk festival then nor has it ever been one.

What is the point of this thread WAV?

Zen

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: r.padgett
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 03:10 AM

Good luck to Glastonbury!

It is not a Folk Festival as I personally see English or Scottish Folk Festivals

Yes there are plenty of others more refelective of the Folk scene

Ray

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 03:23 AM

You should get out for walkies more, WAB. English folk music is alive and well and living in the provinces, at festivals like Rydale Folk Weekend, Scarborough Seafest and in folk clubs like Kirby Fleetham were we had a magnificent feast of English folk music the other weekend. In fact, it's more localised than just English (and none the worse for that), as people sing traditional songs from, and write new ones about, their locality. I, too, deplore global Americanisation, but English music is in good shape to repel the invaders - indeed, welcome them and then show them how it should be done. :)

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 04:23 AM

"Traditions exist due to folks being impressed by how THEIR forebears did things" ... I'm impressed by our forebears performed rock music, how it has evolved, how it transcended national borders,

I'm also impressed by the effort Michael Eavis has to promote charitable and environmental causes, something made possible by the popularity of the festival, which itself is popular due to the diversity of performers at the festival. Folk, rock, jazz, classical and dance acts from all over the world, all sharing the same stages.

Glastonbury is a celebration of diversity, of our multicultural world, of how these cultures mix and how amazing new music can develop. (although the choice of main stage acts is a bit questionable at times)

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Hovering Bob
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 04:33 AM

It is what it is, and they booked my son's band! Good on them.

BobH

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Stu
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 04:44 AM

WAV's got a point, but what's sauce for the goose . . .

To balance turning Glastonbury from a successful international festival into a folk festival, I propose we should also turn Sidmouth into a punk and metal festival for those who yearn for the edgier things in life, and who will have lost the opportunity to indulge at Glasto.

I for one would look forward to seeing the Dead Kennedy's playing their fine romantic song 'Too Drunk to F*ck', at The Manor Pavilion and would applaud Ivor Biggun performing solo for us all his classic record "The W*nker's Song" on stage at the Gardens.

I'll get me spoons . . .

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: GUEST,Michael Eavis
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 05:05 AM

Get off moy larnd!!!

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: GUEST,Folkies Forever
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 05:08 AM

Yes I agree. I think we should also force the organisers of the MOBO awards to change it to MOWO awards with folk acts sweeping all the prizes!!!

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 05:15 AM

Are there MOWO awards?

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 05:25 AM

Er; what about those well-known Glastonbury regulars, The Boat Band? Difficult to imagine anything more English (except when they are off on one of their Cajun adventures).
Tim

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 05:41 AM

WAV, 29 June, 2:45PM says: "......why not have mostly English folk acts, Chris, and a few American guests (among others), such as Neil Diamond, whose American music I do enjoy LISTENING to...".

Woops, what a slip of the keyboard there! So that's the criterion then, is it?

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: mandotim
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 05:47 AM

Sorry; Guest 5.25am was me.
Tim

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 05:48 AM

I'd go a long way to avoid listening to Neil Diamond!

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 06:35 AM

No slip, George: I do, indeed, enjyoy LISTENING to some of the pop/rock performed (e.g., as guests of, ME, above?) by AMERICANS - I'm not anti-American but anti-Americanisation.
And, to Richard: on somethings, of course, we disagree - I think ND's stage-craft and American music is pretty impressive.
To Theleveller: one that you missed - just this last weekend, WAV went "walkies" to the Durham Traditional Music Festival.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 06:50 AM

Whyaye, bonnie lad. Did you give a wave to the Gateshead flasher?

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 06:50 AM

However, I have just slipped-up a bit with my last choice of words, frankly: "pretty good" would make more sense, as I'd never be impressed into practising/performing such American music as Neil Diamond's, because I'm an Englishman - impressed into trying, rather, the E. trads of my folkie-forebears.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 06:53 AM

"Whyaye, bonnie lad. Did you give a wave to the Gateshead flasher?" (Theleveller...who could, kindly, reveal himself, for clarity!?)...who was there from Gateshead...?

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: irishenglish
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 07:03 AM

I knew after a week or so that this thread was coming. Go to Cropredy WAV, that's a very English feeling festival. Better yet, as someone else suggested, start your own event. After orgainizing it you should find that what your audience requests is more variety. By the way, the preferred term, since you are such a stickler for this sort of thing, is Native American, not Amerindian.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 07:22 AM

""Whyaye, bonnie lad. Did you give a wave to the Gateshead flasher?" (Theleveller...who could, kindly, reveal himself, for clarity!?)...who was there from Gateshead...?"

Don't be so perverse! Reveal myself as what? If you're really that intersted, find me on myspace. Who the hell are you, anyway?

Did you not go up that ancient English highway, The Great North Road and see Mr Gormley's magnificent structure?

BTW, did you see Brother Crow winning best song and best tune awards? Missed it, unfortunately, but very well deserved.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 08:44 AM

Sorry, Theleveller - first time I'd heard it called that, but I actually saw The Angel of the North on the train from Newcastle to Durham on Saturday, as I sat backwards.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 09:37 AM

Landermason have a fantastic song about the Angel of the North on their CD of the same name.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 09:47 AM

In what way isn't rock music - at least partly - an English phenomenon? Surely the likes of the Beatles, the Stones, the Kinks, the Pretty Things, the Small Faces, the Zombies etc, sent rock music spinning off in all kinds of directions that had never been concieved of before? And don't get me started on Barrett-era pink Floyd, the Move, Caravan, Soft Machine, Hatfield and the North, Van Der Graaf Generator and a host of others.

Not so much the Americanisation of "English culture" but a full scale campaign of Anglicisation of a once purely American, but now happily mongrelised, form.

Tell me how "The Village Green Preservation Society" or "Arnold Layne" or "S.F. Sorrow" is an example of Americanisation. And be warned: there are plenty more examples where those came from.

WAV, your position is null and void, not least because it fails to recognise that just like people (you included), music travels and picks up all kinds of souvenirs, some classy and some tacky.

vaccuums exist to be filled, which is a good reason why music can't and shouldn't exist in one.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 10:02 AM

If you check with Wikipedia, Ewan, you'll soon see that rock and pop are, indeed, American genres, that the likes of The Beatles (who even tried talking in American accents) were very good at copying; I, myself, have far more respect for English folk who are good at their OWN good culture.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: GUEST,The Bastard Son Of Marty Feldman
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 10:14 AM

Irishenglish - Why go to Cropredy when you can go to Pickering? Top time to be had and I, for one, can't wait! Yippedee Doo Dah.......

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 10:21 AM

Initially American, yes (although with roots at least partly in early country music, which in turn has its roots, both secular and church, in the songs and ballads brought over to the US from England, Scotland and Ireland - an oversimplified history, yes, but nonetheless...). However you cannot seriously believe that when the Beatles brought out, say, Revolver, they were still trying to sound like Elvis, Carl Perkins, Jerry Lee Lewis, Chuck Berry and co? It so they failed miserably, especially with the likes of "Tomorrow Never Know", "Eleanor Rigby", "She Said She Said" and so on. If you think these are just pale imitations of the American rock music of the time, you really do have cloth ears. Sorry and all that! Do you not realise this was an era when a shockingly large proportion of American bands were desperately trying to sound English?

Traditional folk music is far from being the only music musicians in the country have created, contributed to and developed.

Open your ears, man, and let your mind follow!

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: irishenglish
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 10:24 AM

Just a suggestion for our misg....er...misinf...um....misun....no, what's the word? Ah yes! Irrelevent!

WAV-I'm going to cut and paste all my posts from your previous "English" threads, because they have the same points and the same relevance to everything you bring up on here. At this point, its almost not worthy to tax my brain to come up with answers to your ridiculous notions.

BTW, Bastard son, Pickering sounds great, but alas, I am in New York.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 10:33 AM

WAVQUOTE: I, myself, have far more respect for English folk who are good at their OWN good culture

Dunno about you, matey, but the Beatles and the rest of 'em are definitely part of my culture!

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Chris Green
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 10:42 AM

Wikipedia?! Since when has that been a reliable source of information?

However, I'll play along. So we'll agree that rock is, originally at least, an American genre, by which we mean that the first examples can found in the United States. However, it grew out of blues and folk music. So rock music is originally African and European in origin. Kind of like a sizeable chunk of the population of the United States really. And a sizeable chunk of the population of our own Fair Albion. So we return to square one.

WAV - everything and everyone comes from somewhere else, if you go back far enough. I was born and brought up in England and I love English folk music. I've spent a large portion of my life playing it. Once a week (for I am a lucky bugger!) I even get paid by my LEA to go into a different primary school, play some trad English folk music for the kids and SHOW them how great it is!

However, my mother is Irish. My father wasn't, but his mother was. According to you, I should therefore only play Irish folk music. Indeed, according to you, I shouldn't even really be here at all. I should emigrate back to the Emerald Isle (a place that to my shame I've never even visited!) and spend my days dancing jigs with pigs, beating my colleen over the head with a shillaleagh and indulging in sundry other such traditional practices, for the delight of visitors such as yourself, who embrace diversity with open arms as long it's not in their backyard.

Sorry if this all sounds a little cutting, but to be honest, having read a few of the threads you've started, I'm quite pissed off. I think you mean well, and I honestly don't think you can see how half-baked and bloody offensive your 'ideas' are. If you really love English folk music, and really want other people to love it more, why don't you try letting it speak for itself? It's a far more persuasive advocate than you are.

Chris

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 10:43 AM

"Open your ears, man, and let your mind follow!" (Ewan) - I have been doing so to the pop/rock music at Glastonbury, via the Beeb; and, frankly, have been fooled by the accents of some: i.e., I've assumed they were American from accent/style, before hearing them speak in English accents. And, as I say, I have far more respect for English folk who are good at their OWN good culture.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 10:54 AM

frankly ,if they asked me to play at Glastonbury,I would tell them to F Off.,what an awful festival. Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 10:54 AM

You're putting words in my mouth there, Chris - I do love THE WORLD being diverse (major in anthropology; travel through about 40 countries); and I DON'T think you "should emigrate back to the Emerald Isle". We can accept that there has been heaps of conquest and immigration over the centuries BUT still question what is best FROM NOW ON.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: irishenglish
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 10:56 AM

WAV-you were warned, so here's my post to you from another of your threads-"

Oh just stop it WAV. Seriously. You lose these discussions time and time and time again. You yourself, in your head think you're being so witty and above it all. You've been dismissed by musicians, scholars, and people such as myself who have been listening to this music for years longer than yourself. You've got nothing. Just quotes from what you deem is your life's work. You don't listen. You don't choose to debate rationally, sociologically, historically, and on and on. I've said it before-in your mind, its your way or no way. All this junk about top line melody, recorders probably not even made in England, keyboards that are probably made in Japan, morris dancing cricket and tennis balls, idiotic concepts of repatriating people to the closest safe nation, gardening only native English plants. Its self promotion of the worst sort. You use this forum as a barren ground for your own musings, instead of as a place of education, discourse, or even humour. I know more about many genres of music than you could ever hope to know. You know why? I listen. I find out where this came from, and where that came from. I don't place ridiculous notions of music being something that is limited as if it were a box, preserved in time, never allowed to change. Your concepts for English music are without any merit whatsoever. You seek to constantly critique the very thing you profess to love. Your political notions are simplistic and unrealistic. Your prose offers little in the way of contemplation. Your continued obfuscation on threads that you are the original poster of is, lets be blunt here-annoying. You are preaching to a choir of people who wish you would go back on walkabout somewhere for a couple of years. You post topics on mudcat that are on your website. But you post them not in a -Hey guys, be brutally frank here, how do you like this sort of way, but rather in a I'm an intellectual of the highest degree, therefore, bow down before my life's work sort of way. WAV-your thinking is nothing. Learn to discuss, learn to debate, learn to learn. Learn to do these things that most of us learned a long time ago. "


By the way duelingbouzoukis, great post, exactly what I was thinking regarding the distillation of music.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Chris Green
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 11:06 AM

'I should emigrate back to the Emerald Isle.... you're putting words in my mouth'. I was exaggerating for comedic effect, but okay, it's a fair cop. My apologies.

However, given my ethnic/cultural background, where do you stand on me playing English and not Irish folk music? Actually, I've been known to play both, but I'm far more comfortable with playing English stuff. Not because of any ancestral hang-ups. It's just that I think I'm better at it!


(Now if I can just work out what I mean by 'English folk music' then I'm laughing!)

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Chris Green
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 11:07 AM

By the way, irishenglish, thanks for your kind words!

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: irishenglish
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 11:08 AM

Be careful duelingbouzouki, WAV's gonna challenge you not on that, but the fact that you are playing bouzouki and not a cittern!

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 11:14 AM

Hand me that bouzouki, Chris, you usurper, or I will hit you with my bobble-shoe!

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 11:15 AM

(going off at a tangent) - that's another weird word, "usurper". It sounds like something involving a spoon.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 11:17 AM

In the 50s and 60s, as you'll know, Chris, there was a much bigger percentage of English who did, indeed, prefer the practise/performance of English folk to American pop/rock - we need to go back to there.....

WAV you talk bollocks on here most of the time - but that is a particularly good example of the genre.

Now if you truly believe what you say - instead of just making it up as you go along - but I am happy to give you a chance to provbe me wrong. What are the percentages? Start with the fifties.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 11:23 AM

I'm glad you're playing English folk music, Chris...but, yes, indeed, I would like you and other English string players to give the Englsih cittern a go...apparently, as said on that other thread, they were very common in the barber-shops and taverns of 17th century England, before being superseded by the guitar, etc. Have you ever had the chance to play one? (I noticed Theleveller, above, does, via his myspace; and I've seen Jez Lowe accompany some of his verses with one.)

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 11:27 AM

"that's another weird word, "usurper". It sounds like something involving a spoon."

As in singing for usurper?

I wanted to play the buzourk...borzzuk...bourzo....but had to settle for something I could spell - the siterrn.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: irishenglish
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 11:29 AM

Told you Chris! WAV-let the man play the damn instrument he's been playing for years and years without your two cents thrown in. See above lengthy quote from me regarding your misguided notions.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Banjiman
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 11:36 AM

irishenglish, you have the right idea here......I could go back and re-quote many of my own posts on WAVs ridiculous threads. Can't really be arsed though.

duellingbouzoukis, you might want to stop trying to be rational in response to WAVs deranged ramblings.....we've all tried it and it doesn't work....... or maybe it's only fair that you have a go!

WAV, congratulations, you've actually managed to start a thread without "English" in the title.....oh no, I'm wrong, silly me.

Paul

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Stu
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 11:41 AM

I must be the sort of bastard WAV really hates . . .

English father, Welsh mother, plays an Irish Bouzouki to the Irish trad music I love so much. I also love English singing like the Watersons and the Coppers but as they include harmonies I should think it only adds to my heresy.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 11:46 AM

Sorry to disappoint you, WAV, but it's the modern version of the cittern that I play, not the C17th one. I think its derivation has been discussed at length and it originates somewhere near you - thanks to Mr Sobell.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Chris Green
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 11:53 AM

'Usurper' from wikipedia.


U.U. Surper - (1908-1991). Russian-American science fiction writer. Born in Bumkrak, near Leningrad he graduated from Leningrad University in 1927 with a first-class degree in phlogiston chemistry. Imprisoned by Stalin 1928-29 he wrote his first novel 'Do Androids Dream of Electric Beetroots?' swiftly followed by its sequel 'No'. Was released on condition that he emigrate to United States on spying mission to find out if rumours were true that Herbert Hoover was in fact one of those vacuum cleaners that have a smiley face on. Was detained at customs for misreading Russian-English phrasebook and declaring himself to be fifteen gallons of bourbon. While in prison awaiting trial for impersonating a banned substance, wrote first book in English entitled 'I Rupert' about an android bear who wears checked trousers and a scarf. Released following repeal of Prohibition which allowed him to be sold to consenting adults. Became US citizen 1939 and went on to write numerous controversial works including the explicit 'Last Bongo in Powys' which told the sleazy tale of an endangered antelope in Mid-Wales and 'Straggler in a String Band', about a Martian who comes to earth to spread enlightenment, but ends up as a banjo player (or 'abject failure' as they are referred to in the book). Died of asphyxiation 19th July 1991, having been accidentally buried 18th July 1991.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: irishenglish
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 11:54 AM

Boy, that wikipedia is a great source for things isn't it WAV, oops I mean duelingbouzoukis!

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: irishenglish
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 11:56 AM

And reliable too, I meant to say!

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Chris Green
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 11:59 AM

On a less serious note, WAV, yes I have played an C17th cittern, not one of the Stefan Sobell type-ones. To be honest, I can see why they're not played that much any more. They have a sweet sound but you're very limited in what you can play and they're very quiet. They certainly wouldn't replace a guitar, bouzouki or even mandolin for song accompaniment.

Instruments evolve to meet the needs of players. As music has become more diverse and complicated, so instruments have changed. It's called progress.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Muswell Hillbilly
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 11:59 AM

RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...

No thank you, but THANK YOU for your interest in this matter.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 12:05 PM

I suppose the modern cittern could be said to be an English instrument as it originated in England - or even a Northumbrian instrument. Brilliant for playing British folk music. Is it used elsewhere in the world?

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 12:13 PM

Re: "WAV, congratulations, you've actually managed to start a thread without "English" in the title.....oh no, I'm wrong, silly me" (Banjiman)...there once was a, now dead (in it's 900s), thread called "Walkaboutsverse", and now is a re-birth thread (way down in BS) called "The Weekly Walkabout".

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 12:18 PM

George: I think you'll find that's a "uslurper".

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Muswell Hillbilly
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 12:25 PM

I've just finished sampling,Walkaboutsverse's verse, I'm still alive, as you can see and wondering am why oh why must he create a sequel, it rather reminds me of sequels and prequels to horrendous Hollywood films.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 12:27 PM

To the Hon. Sec.: I guess I may never be the Glastonbury bard, then!; but pray tell me - do you think it is the real trad. Somerset farmer who posted above?!

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 12:56 PM

tell us, WAV - do YOU think it is? That will be a good indicator of your level of self-delusion...

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Mr Red
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 12:57 PM

I seem to remember Glastonbury being called a Folk Festival and always assumed that appellation was coming from the organisers but maybe it was just "people" calling it that. But I don't think so.

It is a music festival. Like Weston Park, Isle of White, Pheonix, Knebworth etc. To appeal to 150,000 people it can't be or call itself a folk event. The public would not decend in such volumes.

And of course there are festivals that want to tap into the folksie feel and were folk festivals but now are too big to carry only folk performers like Trowbridge Village Pump Festival. And then there is Cambridge which is a Folk Festival in name but mutterings I hear give a lie to the name.

Then there are upstarts that want to out-do Cambridge. They won't be Folk in anything but name either, assumung they can get there without insulting everyone who would support them almost that far.

The reason there are so many small folk festivals around is because there is the support, and when the credit crunch, come petrol hike, come negative, come unemplyment equity bites --- the bigger the arrogance, the bigger the losses.

Even Glastonbury will have to consider the budget. Who as far as I can ascertain add to the local economy by their deliberate methodology.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: irishenglish
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 01:00 PM

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. WAV is the living embodiment of the Roderick Spode character from Jeeves and Wooster. All he has to do to fulfill that is to recommend that certain crops and industries should be designated to particular counties and we will have a living, breathing Roderick Spode amongst us.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 01:09 PM

wasnt Roderick Spode based on Oswald Mosley?

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: irishenglish
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 01:13 PM

Yes he was Captain!

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: mandotim
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 01:17 PM

I was out in the city last night. In the course of the evening I got talking to a very pleasant group of young people who were amusing themselves by making up lyrics about the council estate where they live. All of them were English, born and bred, and had lived in the area all their lives. (I was rude enough to ask). They were singing the lyrics to a recognisable tune, with rhythm provided by another young man who was producing drum sounds using voice only. Tell me WAV; was this English folk music?
Incidentally; your poetry, in my humble opinion, is technically incompetent, soulless drivel. If you must write it, I can see a rationale for preserving it in some way for future generations; literary tastes may have declined enough by then for it to border on acceptable, but please stop inflicting it on the current users of this list.
I've just thought; you're not a Vogon, are you?
Tim

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Muswell Hillbilly
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 01:41 PM

And quoting thus, "BUT still question what is best FROM NOW ON" I have an answer to this, but being too much of a decent human being I won't provide the answer. As for the rest, Walkaboutsverse, I simply don't have clue what you're on about. now Oswald Moseley, he was a kissing cousin to Enoch Powell, and we all know what Powell was about.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: GUEST,aeola
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 01:59 PM

It's good that we all have our own opinions, just so long as we don't try to inflict them on other people. I,ve said it before and I repeat' music for folk ' it encompasses all, and there is room for all.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 02:32 PM

And, as I've said before Aeola, English folk gets very little airplay in England - especially compared with American rock and pop.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Muswell Hillbilly
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 02:40 PM

It seems to me that the listeners prefer to listen to rock 'n roll and pop music, that's their choice, and it's not your place to tell people what they should or should not be listening to.

as to your remark, English folk gets very little airplay in England - especially compared to American rock and pop, my reply is simply ;so what?

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Zen
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 02:44 PM

English folk gets very little airplay in England - especially compared with American rock and pop.

So why don't you lobby the broadcasters directly instead of expounding your views time after time in thread after thread here?

Zen

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 03:04 PM

I have tried in several ways, Zen, because, HS, as I've said in poem #209, when people lose their own culture, society suffers.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Muswell Hillbilly
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 03:10 PM

The only one who seems to be moaning about 'society's loss of culture' is you. Personally I think your statement is a completely load of bollocks, and as Zen has suggested, get in touch with the BBC and all the private broadcasters and make your opinions known to them. I mean is that so hard?

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: irishenglish
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 03:16 PM

Here's WAV trying that. "Oh please Mr. or Mrs. Festival organizer, please have an English Country Dancing festival with only cittern players who all have an English Folk Degree and who only garden native English plants and sing in top line melody only, providing they aren't women tennis players because women in my opinion are better suited to table tennis." In case you don't believe me folks, those are all points from WAV himself. I don't believe in ANY such exclusion!

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Chris Green
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 03:24 PM

This thread's become farcical.

That's not a criticism by the way. I always like a good laugh!

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Muswell Hillbilly
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 03:27 PM

duelling, it's just come to my attention that every thread that walkaboutsverse starts ends up the same way, but it is good for a bit of laugh. I was wondering what Flanders and Swann would make of it all. Oh it was on a Monday morning that verse maker came to call...

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 03:28 PM

Become?

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: irishenglish
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 03:31 PM

Ah, welcome to WAV's world duelingbouzoukis! BTW, I just added Isambarde to my myspace-great stuff! The last WAV thread I just resorted to Monty Python quotes out of pure desire to have a laugh!

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Muswell Hillbilly
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 03:37 PM

A wonderful band are Isambarde, from Coventry (we won't hold that against them though!) in case anyone didn't know. Their website seems to be down at the moment, though that could be my computer acting out. From what I've read on Walkaboutsverse's threads, he probably wouldn't like them, there doesn't seem to be a cittern in sight!

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 03:43 PM

"It's good that we all have our own opinions, just so long as we don't try to inflict them on other people"

Damn; looks like the end of mudcats, then! Errr, just my opinion (but listen to me, damn you, you know I'm right)!:)

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Deeps
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 04:05 PM

The modern cittern boom really took off north of the border, perhaps we should call it the Scottish cittern.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: GUEST,aeola
Date: 30 Jun 08 - 04:26 PM

Well, theleveller, I maybe confusing inflict with afflict, but your right Mudcats must keep going on and on & on.....

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: mandotim
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 03:57 AM

WAV; on 30th June at 1.15pm I asked you a question about music, specifically about whether you regard the music I heard in the city the other night as English Folk music. I was trying to understand your definition of said music, but you have not replied. Why is this, as you seem to delight in replying to most questions? Are you perhaps making some assumptions about the musicians?

By the way, I stand by my comments about your poetry. I showed some examples to a friend; she's an Emeritus Professor of English Literature at Oxford. She gave a two word opinion; 'MacGonagall lives!'.
Tim

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 04:08 AM

Thanks, Mandotim - so, as above, I may never be the Glastonbury bard, nor an Honorary Doctor of English Literature at Oxford Uni., then!...they're nearly as bad as knighthoods, anyway.
And, sorry, I'm still not clear on what music you heard on that street.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: theleveller
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 05:17 AM

I'm going to expose my arse for a kicking here and leap to WAV's defence. It's hard not to sound condescending and supercilious, which I don't mean to be (on this occasion), so please take these comments in that spirit.

What I admire about WAV is his passionate defence of Englishness, which is now deeply unfashionable but which I believe should be celebrated more. Forget about pride and misplaced jingoism, but it would be nice to see more people getting pleasure from being English, in the same way that the Scots, Irish and Welsh are actually pleased to belong to those nations. We should enjoy being English and celebrate the huge diversity that makes up England.

To understand what I'm talking about, visit www.england-in-particular.info or, better still, buy the book. England In Particular describes itself as 'a celebration of the commonplace, the local, the vernacular and the distinctive' (and, I would add, the eccentric) and is the culmination of 20 years' work by Angela King and Sue Clifford who formed Common Ground together with my old friend, the late Roger Deakin (who I know would not mind my describing as a true eccentric in the best English tradition).

Personally, I love listening to songs that people have written about the localities they love. To see what I mean, listen to the songs of Yorkshire and the North East by Brother Crow, Wendy Arrowsmith, Richard Grainger and, of course, Mike Waterson. These are wonderful, stirring songs that are preserving the local heritage and keeping folk music alive, vibrant, current and a real, living entity. To hear them sends a tingle down the spine.

I'm not going to comment on the quality of WAV's verse (but just remember that MacGonagal's work is still being read), but I do respect his passion, if not always the way he puts it across.

Perhaps more of us should be celebrating our own bit of England and taking positive action to resist the ever-increasing pressure to change, to conform to a stereotype, to unify, to depersonalise and to centralise. Diversity is the life-blood that keeps alive the true character of England. Don't let it be swamped in a sea of motorways, McDonalds, mundanity and municipal short-sightedness.

Home Rule For Yorkshire!: )

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Banjiman
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 05:27 AM

Mr Leveller,

I think I agree with some of what you are saying but my version of "Englishness" is more Imagined Village than Cecil Sharp.... i.e inclusive and ever evolving rather than unwelcoming and preserved in aspic. (my arse will probably be kicked for that as well!)

Obviously I agree with your music choices (though remember Wendy Arrowsmith might be adopted Yorkshire but she is very Scottish and proud of it by birth!). All of the artists you mention do evoke very strong images of different aspects and areas of North Yorks and the North East.

Never mind Glastonbury, see you at Pickering.

Paul

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 05:28 AM

leveller, the problem is that most here would not dispute this. Many of us think that English culture should be better represented (some of us have even got off our arses and done something about it, rather than engaging in the endless internet onanism favoured by WAVey Davey).

The only thing most people object to, if I'm not misrepresenting the numerous views expressed over countless threads, is WAVey Davey's insistence on Englishness TO THE EXCLUSION OF ALL ELSE. Telling people how they SHOULD be singing, playing, or "practising" their culture, as if this isn't a very personal choice. It's the persistent attempt to sanitise Englishness of all "foreignness" (as if this were even possible) and to preserve it as something fixed and unchanging, which many have challenged. And many of us are also disturbed and outraged by the logical end result of this sort of attempt at cultural cleansing.

There are positive ways of celebrating and promoting Englishness. WAVey Davey's way ain't even close.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 05:58 AM

What should be celebrated is nothing that is defined by the 'English' label. To state the obvious, songs about Yorkshire are songs about Yorkshire! They are part of Yorkshire's heritage, not the nation's. Customs and traditions vary throughout England as they do throughout the world.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: theleveller
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 06:04 AM

Hi Paul. Yes, I realise Wendy's proud of her Scottishness but her songs have a real 'sense of place' in North Yorkshire. This, to my mind, demonstrates the progressive and immediate nature of folk music as opposed (as you so rightly say) to preserving it in aspic.

Look forward to seeing you at Pickering - should be great.

Ruth, as I said, it's the willingness to celebrate Englishness that so many people (not you) seem to find embarrassing. I'm certainly not advocating any form of exclusivity or 'ethnic cleansing', just the preservation of local distinctiveness in a sea of uniformity! Of course it's a personal choice - I want to ensure that we still have the opportunity to make it.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 06:06 AM

Agreed, Joe, and that point has indeed been made time and again on related threads. Culture is like flavour, I think - it pertains to uindividual, regional customs and traditions, just as flavour is linked to individual food items. To talk about "English culture" is like trying to describe the taste of the contents of a shopping trolley.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 06:15 AM

Ruth: I, along with the members of Brother Crow, etc., were "off our arses" and PARTICIPATING at the Durham Traditional Music Festival, just this weekend, e.g. And, whilst there, I sung this (once in the comp's and once at the singaround, with tenor-recorder/English flute intro.) about what is now my local area of England:

Poem cum Song 162 of 230, walkaboutsverse.741.com: TEES TO TYNE: FIRST IMPRESSIONS - SUMMER 2001

Where traditions are not so rare;
    Sea, country and works scent the air;
A multitude of monuments,
    Planted tubs and patterned pavements.

The longish pedestrian malls;
    The remnants of defensive walls;
"Broken-roofed buildings" are a gauge
    Of the respect for heritage.

Wheat, rape and pines in the fields;
    Estuaries guarded by shields;
Long sandy beaches and wide scenes;
    Romantic-ruin go-betweens.

Rivers in parts licked by trees,
    Or fringed by boat clubs, wharfs, gantries,
And crossed by practical delights -
    Varied spans, forming pleasing sights.

Fine churches headed at Durham;
    Football kits ad infinitum;
Kept castles - one for study;
    Masonry behind masonry.

And, with moulding-works out that way,
It's somewhere for a longer stay..?

(PS: I also recently performed it, on a Northern Lines poetry event, at Newcastle's Lit. and Phil. Library.)

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Stu
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 06:25 AM

"Rivers in parts licked by trees,"

Effing genuis.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 06:35 AM

As in "the ice lolly licked my tongue", you mean, stig? An interesting concept, though, it challenges conventional thinking.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 06:44 AM

"I'm certainly not advocating any form of exclusivity or 'ethnic cleansing', just the preservation of local distinctiveness in a sea of uniformity! Of course it's a personal choice - I want to ensure that we still have the opportunity to make it."

Indeed. It's one of the things I love about England - its regional variety and distinctiveness.


WAVey Davey, you have suggested so many things that ought to bew done to promote English culture, from broadcasting to festival management. When i speak of getting off your arse and doing something, it is this to which I refer - not subjecting the already sorely put-upon British public to another masturbatory "performance" of your risible "life's work".

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 07:12 AM

C !!

slow day at work today.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 07:44 AM

A NEW criticism! - usually it's lack of imagination.
As I said in the Blurb, most of my collection
is deliberately "direct", but, in Tees to Tyne, I did try some imagery - such as the leaves of river-side trees, with dangling branches, "licking" the water...can anyone imagine that?

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 08:17 AM

Not sure but an ice cream would be nice, what with all this hot weather we aren't used to!

The Sun is shining
The weather is fine
It reminds me of
A warmer clime

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 08:31 AM

Oh! for a warmer climb
than Everest
Olympus is too chilly.
The Alps are far too hilly.
The Chilterns are, I find,
by far the best.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 08:39 AM

...now you two have gone all "direct"!

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 09:25 AM

Oh for a beer in this sun so shiny
But I think my boss would shout 'cor blimey!'

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 09:32 AM

...or a limey gin & tonic
that would touch every harmonic
and cause music polyphonic
till I flop all catatonic!

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 09:35 AM

If I go off at a tangent
I confess it is a ruse
to divert this conversation
from upset and confrontation
But a thought comes, much more urgent:
GUEST, Joe, would you be my muse?

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Banjiman
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 09:44 AM

'ay up guest Joe, a verse from Yorkshire
With traditions preserved in The Northeast Quarter
To lick or be licked that is the question
Whichever way round it's an indecent suggestion

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 09:59 AM

When I hear the morning wake up bell
I whisper to myself a soft 'oh hell'
I'd much rather be between bedsheets
than manipulating Excel spreadsheets

This organisation - this NHS thing
I find it all rather testing
For someone of such artistic leaning
The working life is so demeaning

...My poetry I must confess
I liken it with the best

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Stu
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 10:11 AM

Lickey leaves around the wetty
meat balls on spaghetti
typing this on my Olivetti
makes me feel all fat and sweaty.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Chris Green
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 10:14 AM

Stigweard - you're not Ian Dury returned from the dead are you? That sounded like three rather convincing reasons to be cheerful to me!

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: theleveller
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 10:18 AM

I'm not getting involved in this
Because I know you'll take the piss
It's true my verses never scan
Because I always try to get as much into the last line as I possibly can

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 10:26 AM

Duellingbozoukis, what is wrong?
Your comments are neither verse nor song
Prose, it is so overrated
Far too long, its dominated

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Chris Green
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 10:52 AM

For too long round this thread I've hovered
I'm out of here - I can't be bovvered!

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: irishenglish
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 11:35 AM

Sorry for the non-poetic post here, but that is not my strong suit. WAV, I'm going to let you in on a little secret here about my username, because in a general sense, it speaks to some of the notions that you have. Now, on the one hand, its a pronouncement of two passions of mine-it could have been just as easily irishenglishamerica, as I am american. On the other, it is just a quick name I made up on the spot for mudcat use. Lets go with the more noble one for now though, the fact that it is two passions.

My mother was born and raised in Donegal, before coming to the States, then marrying my father who has obvious Irish roots, although we are not really sure on the particulars of his family (no one on his side seemed to really care, and as such, we don't know what part of Ireland his side is from. I prefer to keep a little privacy on here, so if you want to know my last name, PM me!). In any case, I had an awareness in me of all things Irish-literature, movies, the landscape,the beer, and of course the music.
My first exposure was probably more through my fathers Clancy Brothers albums (which I didn't like at the time-but then again neither did the 10 year old or so kid much like Patsy Cline, Johnny Cash, and all the other things my father inflicted upon me which I now love!).

Ironically though, it was English music that got me more deeply interested in Irish culture. November, 1987, a sophomore at college in Worcester, Massachusetts. My friend drags me to a Jethro Tull concert. It just so happened we had great seats in a large arena, about 15 rows back, center stage. Opening band is some band called Fairport Convention. Oh look, the guy who plays bass for Tull is in this band too, whats it all about? So on Fairport comes, with electric violin, mandolin,etc, playing a music that sounded vaguely like the Clancy Brothers, but rocked up a bit. I was spellbound. Immediately I started, in those carefree, pre-internet get anything you want with a click days, to seek out this band. It progressed from their own convoluted history, into much more. Who's this guy Martin Carthy that Swarb used to play with? Who's this Cecil Sharp guy that Ashley Hutchings is always on about? And so on, and so on.
I always was an anglophile, even before I knew the term, but once I read Steinbeck's The Moon Is Down, which had a character of a German soldier who was obsessed with all things English, I knew I was not alone!

As I began immersing myself in English music, I realized somehow that I was neglecting my Irish heritage. By this point, I was deeply into many other types of music as well, blues, world, trying to stay afloat in a sea of grunge. I started reading more Irish literature, even poetry, catching up on Irish films, etc. At some point, it may have been on vacation in Ireland, I realized that after many years, my irishophile, if I may create that word, was catching up. For years I had been fighting this internal thing, and sometimes an external thing with people that I was some type of traitor. Some of the less informed people would say to me, how can you like this English folk music after what they did to us (meaning Irish). I really would not know what to say most of the time, because let's face it, the whole Irish/English political thing is still somewhat troublesome. One time though, at a bar, I remember having this discussion with some half hearted Irish-American (the kind who parties on St. Paddies's and who barely knows anything about the place). Instead of getting mad, I switched gears, and asked him something like, did you hear the new Coldplay album? "Yes, he said, it's good." My answer was, oh, so its ok to like a rock band from England, because its rock music, but its not ok to like traditional music, or things of that nature? He got my point.

My point of writing all of this was that WAV, its ok to feel strongly about aspects of your English culture. I could continue with this on my love for many aspects of American culture. Let's just keep that one simple by example-next week for my 40th birthday a bunch of us are getting together here in NY city, at a dive bar, to listen to the Neil Scott Johnson Band (great country and covers band), drinking pitchers of beer, on a hot NY night, with some baseball on the TV. Now that's America for me! Unlike you WAV, and unlike your convoluted poetry, my passions are not catchphrases. My passions come from thought, and a deep understanding, and from time. My English folk collection runs all the way from Seth Lakeman to Walter Pardon. In the first couple of years, I wouldn't have touched Walter Pardon with a 10ft bargepole, but I get it now, I appreciate it. The same with Irish music-give me Altan and Lasairfhiona and I'm on cloud 9. But it all progressed, which is what I showed through writing this. Your declarations of the direction you wish this music to go in are not commensurate with your understanding of the music. I have said it before, you disavow the words of musicians scholars and people like me, who truthfully WAV, have more understanding of the music. I have quoted you from Reg Hall, you had no comment. Professional musicians (yes thats right, professional English folk musicians) have come on here politely telling you that your notions are ill informed. Why won't you listen WAV? It boggles my mind why you aren't on here asking questions. Instead you continue with these ego boosting self promoting pronouncements. As I said to you before, learn to listen WAV. I did, and be it Irish, English, Scottish, American, Malian, or Uzbeki music, I learned how to listen, and my life is vastly different

Robert

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 12:26 PM

If the river rues its parts being kissed by said trees,
It has it mild when compared with yon shrubberies.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Stu
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 12:32 PM

Excellent post Robert.

By WAV's own admission he's only been into folk music for a couple of years, barely time to orient yourself let alone actually understand it; this is made all the more difficult by the fact so much folk is played out of it's original context (not that this matters in many ways, as we're not talking about interpreting pre-raphaelite paintings here).

I've never heard WAV mention Harry Cox, Fred Jordan or any of the other source singers you would think he would be interested in given his views on the subject. If I was interesting in unaccompanied singing I would be looking all over the Isles for inspiration because like it or not none of this stuff has developed in isolation (although I think you could argue some of the singing on the Atlantic coasts of the Isles represent a separate tradition entirely).

All the traditions of the home countries need protecting - English more than most (apart from Wales) as it has long been overshadowed by it's more vital neighbours although I think that is changing; despite the often outspoken and iconoclastic nature of much folk music as a general rule I think folkies are more open to ideas and innovation than they are given credit for, and can mend fences via music whilst others with less insight still hold on to outdated and retrogressive attitudes.

It's one of the reasons why I love folk music.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 12:35 PM

I read every word, Robert (even though I just had dinner!), and have made some changes to my site, via doing so. And I do hope you enjoy yours, and the rest of the night, with your friends, on your 40th birhtday. A tad early, but (in G)...

DDEDGF#
DDEDAG
DDdBGF#E
ccBGAG

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 12:37 PM

Glastonbury is just one festival.

No it isn't. It's lots of festivals happening alongside each other and interacting with each other.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: irishenglish
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 01:05 PM

Thank you for the early birthday best wishes WAV. 7/11-was always an easy one to remind people of here in the States for obvious reasons!

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Muswell Hillbilly
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 11:46 AM

Muswell Hill Rools OK!!!

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: irishenglish
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 12:00 PM

The Kinks and Fairport Convention. Not too shabby Muswell Hill!

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Muswell Hillbilly
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 12:40 PM

That well-known ukelele virtuoso extraordiaire, Peter Sellers (New York Girls, Commoners Crown - Steeleye Span)as well.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 04:26 AM

What I admire about WAV is his passionate defence of Englishness

Apologies for the belated entry on this one, we've been off-line for a fortnight or so, with limited internet access. Note the new name; same identity however...

Anyhoo. The Englishness in question here is a bogus conceptualisation based on an entirely alien perception of same. How can such risible clichés to be construed as a passionate defence of Englishness? On the contrary, I'd say they amounted to a passionate attack on the very nature of Englishness by someone whose agenda is quite possibly as (purposefully) sinister as it is (ostensibly) naive.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: theleveller
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 06:03 AM

Perhaps I'm being naive here, but just why is what WAV does so sinister? My impression is that it's all very tongue-in-cheek. Of course it's risible. Isn't it meant to be so? I mean the idea that Glastonbury should become an English Folk Festival...come on! But it does get us thinking and talking about it.

Maybe it's that we seem to be embarrassed about parading our Englishness, these days, and have surrendered this line to the misplaced jingoism of the fascist right-wing and football supporters.

Make no mistake, I don't support the 'my coutry right or wrong' way of thinking and I'm a staunch republican. But I do love the diversity, the eccentricity and the wonderful anachronisms that make up Englishness. So, instead of just slagging off WAV, if we don't agree with what he's saying, how about being positive and putting forward our own views of what we enjoy about England?

To quote Mr Knightley 'It's my flag, too, and I want it back!'

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Banjiman
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 07:23 AM

Pete,

I did, see post somewhere above.

Cheers

Paul

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: theleveller
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 07:34 AM

Absolutely, Paul! And maybe that's why the folk scene is so boyant and exciting around your neck of the woods (can't believe how many great singer/songwriters there are that I've missed for so long).

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 07:57 AM

So there's irony in WAVs dystopian vision of England? And this from the man who feels his works are somehow good way forward for humanity. This is surely sinister enough, the fact that he so obviously believes in his masterplan for the salvation of humanity. Lord save us!

Otherwise, I'm as proud of my Englishness as the next Englishman, or woman; an all-inclusive and ever evolving Englishness - immigration, ethnic diversity, bleeding borders, Britishness, American influences and all; an Englishness whose musical triumphs are to be found in anything but fecking folk music, at least not the sort of folky folk music whose entire existence is due to the cozy dreams of the wishful few. Real Englishness (and real folk music, one hopes!) is consistent to the cultural & human continuities of the last 10,000 years (at least); forever looking forwards, it does not look back because it doesn't have to; it is secure enough in simply being, and in so being it is forever becoming as history takes its inevitable course.

At least until WAV comes along to show us the error of our ways, and return us to our own good English culture, green and godly gardening and all...

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 09:35 AM

Remember Bearer Rangi Ram (It Ain't Half Hot, Mum)? He was proud too. And the joke might have been on him then, but today the joke would be on his detractors.

OK, I'm as proud of Bearer Rangi Ram, to be part of a community that has many good characteristics, and some less good also. I am Anglisised, not English of course. This is nothing to do with nationhood, but with general culture (adoptive, in my case). And this culture owes some things to Bearer Rangi Ram too, because he added to it, as did everyone who has ever come to live on this island from somewhere else.

All together now, tug on the flyscreen rope and sing "Land of hope and glory"!

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: theleveller
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 09:57 AM

Insane Beard, did you read past the first line of the post of mine you're quoting from? If not, please do and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 10:14 AM

Bearer Rangi Ram, as played by Indian born English actor Michael Bates of course, also to be found as Blamire in the seminal series of Last of the Summer Wine, and he's in The Stone Tape & A Clockwork Orange too if I remember rightly. The characterisation was done with affection, I believe, rather than simply blacking up to reinforce racial stereotypes, though this is supposedly one of the reasons IAHHM hasn't been accorded the classic status enjoyed by other Croft & Perry period pieces.

Curiously, just this morning I came across this film of a blacked-up Bonzo Dog Doo-Dah Band (all except Neil Innes!) performing on British TV, Do Not Adjust Your Set, circa 1969 (introduced by a young David Jason putting on an American accent a la Hughie Greene).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLdA4zKp-00

Methinks, perhaps naively, or rather optimistically, that this is a deeply ironic satire on other more mainstream black-faced acts that were considered acceptable at the time; a grotesquery (certainly on Vivian's part) akin to Vic Reeves & Bob Mortimer doing their Otis & Marvin routine some years later, though by the second series of The Smell... they'd stopped blacking up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oi60CCM9jZU

Anyway, a couple of crucial pieces of England's Own Good Culture to assist WAV with his attempts at repatriation!

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 10:18 AM

IB, agreed about the "ironic satire on other more mainstream black-faced acts that were considered acceptable at the time". And you are right, it WAS done with affection.

"And did those feet in ancient times..."

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: GUEST,I Was Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 11:15 AM

This WAV person, thoroughly bad lot, sir, thoroughly bad lot, would have had him horse-whipped in my day, horsewhipped I say.
Curried eggs on the menu at the club today. Then a round of golf with the chaps. pip, pip.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: GUEST,JM
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 12:26 PM

Hey David! I've just had a great idea! Why don't you ring up Michael Eavis and offer yourself as an act for next year? I'm sure he'd love to have you and your chants on one of the stages.

I can give you his contact details if you'd like.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 12:38 PM

The whiskery one has not got it.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury English Folk Festival?...
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 12:39 PM

Has not got what?