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Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian)
Related thread:
little shoemaker - timing question (16)
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Subject: Lyr Req: Little Shoemaker (Italian portion) From: Genie Date: 01 Jul 08 - 04:51 AM OK, this isn't a folk song, but it's a song that caught my fancy when I was about 12, and I still kind of like it, but I've never been able to figure out the exact Italian lyrics. (I'm doing better now, since I spent some time in Italy in the '70s and learned some Italian, but I'm still not sure of these lyrics.) Here are the English lyrics, along with the supposedly "Italian" lyrics. It's clear to me that whoever posted them on the "innertubes" first got Italian mixed up with Spanish, and it seems the errors have made their way around the world before the truth (the real lyrics) had a chance to put its proverbial pants on. I'm hoping if we have any Italian Mudcatters or catters who are proficient in Italian, they can listen to this You Tube of The Gaylords singing this song and tell me what they are singing in Italian. THE LITTLE SHOEMAKER Sung by The Gaylords English words by Geoffrey Clarmont Parsons, Nathan Korb, and John Turner, Phillips Music by Rudi Revil Peaked at # 2 in 1954 Tap, tap, stitch and tap , Making a pair of shoes Lei scarpini de bailare, bailare. Bailaremos tutusi. Lei scarpini de bailare, bailare. Bailaremos con cosi. In the shoemaker's shop this refrain would never stop As he tapped away, working all the day. At his bench, there was he, just as busy as a bee, Little time to lose with the boots and shoes. But his heart went "pop" inside the little shop When a lovely girl set him all awhirl. She had come to choose some pretty dancing shoes And he heard her say in a charming way, "Shoes to set my feet a-dancing, dancing, Dancing, dancing all the day. Shoes to set my feet a-dancing, dancing, Dancing all my cares away. Then he tapped and he stitched, for his fingers were bewitched, And he sewed a dream into every seam, Making shoes, oh, so neat, just like magic on her feet, And he hoped she'd know that he loved her so. But she danced, danced, danced, as though she were entranced, Like a spinning top all around the shop. On her dainty feet she whirled into the street And he heard her say as she danced away, [This is what it sounds like to me, and more in keeping with Italian, but I'm not sure of parts.] Le scarpine per ballare, ballare, Ballaremo tutt' il vie, Le scarpine per ballare, ballare. Balleremo en cocusi. * Shoes to set my feet a-dancing, dancing Dancing all my cares away All my cares away!! Can someone provide the official Italian lyrics or transcribe them from? *What I'm sure of is that it's "per ballare," not "de bailare," and I'm pretty sure it's "Ballaremo" or "Balleremo" "tutt' il vie" but I'm not sure if the "vee" sound is a contraction (e.g., for "vita"). I'm also not sure if it's "scarpine." I thought "shoes" would be "scarpiti" or something like that. And I'm really having trouble with the last "co cosi" or "cocusi" part. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Shoemaker (Italian portion) From: Genie Date: 01 Jul 08 - 04:53 AM Oops. Forgot the YouTube link: The Gaylords/The Little Shoemaker |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Shoemaker (Italian portion) From: polaitaly Date: 01 Jul 08 - 05:23 AM Le scarpine per ballare, ballare Balleremo tutto il dì Le scarpine per ballare, ballare Balleremo ancor così Little shoes for dancing, dancing We will dance all day Little shoes for dancing, dancing We will dance again that way polaitaly |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Shoemaker (Italian portion) From: Genie Date: 01 Jul 08 - 06:16 PM Grazie, Pola! I feel like "Duh!" - Of course it's "... tutt' il dì ..." (all the day) they are singing, even if it kind of sounds like "tutt' il vi." I'll see if I can send the correct lyrics to some of the sites that currently have the wrong (mostly Spanish) lyrics. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Shoemaker (Italian portion) From: GUEST,Roy Date: 15 Oct 10 - 12:51 AM I've always remembered the Italian lyrics as:- Voglio due scarpini per ballare, ballare per ballare tutt' il di Due scarpini per ballare, ballare balleremo tutt' il di. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Shoemaker (Italian portion) From: Genie Date: 15 Oct 10 - 02:09 AM Those may be the lyrics on a different recording, Roy, but they're not the ones sung by The Gaylords in their popular US recording. Those are as Pola posted above. The only difference is that some of the words are contracted, thus: Le scarpine per ballare, ballare, Balleremo tutt' il dì. Le scarpine per ballare, ballare Ballerem' ancor così. Either way, the chorus says pretty much the same thing. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Shoemaker (Italian portion) From: GUEST Date: 07 Nov 11 - 08:05 AM le scarpine per ballare, ballare... balleremo tutto il di'... the little shoes for dancing, dancing.. we will dance the whole day thru... |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Shoemaker (Italian portion) From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 07 Nov 11 - 09:31 AM Hi, Genie. Thanks for reminding me of this song! I can't wait to see how it sounds on a dulcimer. If that doesn't work, piano. The link you gave to a video has expired, so here's another one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijV4Z1YBsaM By the way, a couple people at YouTube say the song was originally French. It would be interesting to hear how the French perform it. |
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Subject: ADD: Le petit cordonnnier (Rudi Revil)-Shoemaker From: GUEST,999 Date: 07 Nov 11 - 12:10 PM http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=oULA_vHosTg LE PETIT CORDONNIER (Rudi Revil) Un petit cordonnier qui voulait aller danser Avait fabriqué de petits souliers Une belle est entrée qui voulait les acheter Mais le cordonnier lui a déclaré: Ils seront à vous sans qu'ils vous coûtent un sou Mais il vous faudra danser avec moi Petit cordonnier t'es bête, bête Qu'est- ce que t'as donc dans la tête, tête Crois-tu que mon cœur s'achète, chète Avec une paire de souliers Mais la belle accepta , elle emporta sous son bras Les petits souliers pour aller danser L'cordonnier tout réjoui a mis ses plus beaux habits Et s'est pomponné pour la retrouver Mais hélas quand il voulut la faire danser Elle lui rit au nez d'un p'tit air futé. Petit cordonnier t'es bête, bête... Mais à peine la belle avait-elle fait trois pas Que ses p'tits souliers furent ensorcelés Elle se mit à tourner comme une toupie déréglée Et les musiciens n'y comprenaient rien Elle tourna, tourna jusqu'au petit matin Et tout épuisée se mit à pleurer Petit cordonnier arrête, rête Tu me fais tourner la tête, tête Tu ne dois pas être bête, bête Pour m'avoir ensorcelée Petit cordonnier arrête, rête Que ta volonté soit faite, faite Toute ma vie le cœur en fête, fête Dans tes bras je vais danser Gentil petit cordonnier |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Shoemaker (Italian portion) From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 07 Nov 11 - 12:25 PM Thanks, 999. Clearly there's more to the story when it's done in French! |
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Subject: The Little Shoemaker - French lyrics From: Genie Date: 07 Nov 11 - 02:56 PM Thanks for the French lyrics, 999. I'm having a little trouble figuring out how they scan with the tune on the chorus part. Or are the French lyrics sung to a different tune? Genie |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Shoemaker (Italian portion) From: GUEST,999 Date: 07 Nov 11 - 04:09 PM Welcome, leeneia. Genie, the lyrics are from a different place than the video. That may be making the difference, Genie. Perhaps Monique will be able to handle that question properly. My own French is terrible. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Shoemaker (Italian portion) From: Genie Date: 08 Nov 11 - 03:31 PM I can kind of see how the French lyrics scan with the tune, but the chorus tune has to be modulated slighty (adding a syllable at the end of the second line). Monique can no doubt translate the idioms better than I can, but here's my stab at translating the French lyrics into somewhat normal-sounding English (not a "singable translation" though): Un petit cordonnier qui voulait aller danser Avait fabriqué de petits souliers. Une belle est entrée qui voulait les acheter, Mais le cordonnier lui a déclaré: Ils seront à vous sans qu'ils vous coûtent un sou, Mais il vous faudra danser avec moi. A little shoemaker who wanted to go dancing Had made some little shoes. A lovely girl came in who wanted to buy them, But the shoemaker told her: They will be yours without costing you a penny, But you will have to dance with me. Petit cordonnierm t'es bête, bête. Qu'est- ce que t'as donc dans la tête, tête? Crois-tu que mon cœur s'achète, 'chète Avec une paire de souliers? Little shoemaker, you're daft (stupid), daft. What's gotten into your head, head? Do you think my heart can be bought, bought With a pair of shoes? Mais la belle accepta, elle emporta sous son bras Les petits souliers pour aller danser. L'cordonnier tout réjoui a mis ses plus beaux habits Et s'est pomponné pour la retrouver, Mais, hélas, quand il voulut la faire danser Elle lui rit au nez d'un p'tit air futé. But the beautiful girl agreed, she took the little shoes In her arms to go dancing. The shoemaker was delighted to put on his best clothes And was decked out to find her again, But alas, when he wanted to get her to dance She laughed in his face with a clever little air. Petit cordonnier t'es bête, bête ... Little shoemaker, you're daft, daft ... Mais à peine la belle avait-elle fait trois pas Que ses p'tits souliers furent ensorcelés. Elle se mit à tourner comme une toupie déréglée Et les musiciens n'y comprenaient rien. Elle tourna, tourna jusqu'au petit matin Et tout épuisée se mit à pleurer But no sooner had the beauty taken three steps When her little shoes were bewitched. She began to spin like a wild top And the musicians didn't understand it at all. She turned and spun until dawn And, completely exhausted, began to cry. Petit cordonnier, arrête, 'rête. Tu me fais tourner la tête, tête. Tu ne dois pas être bête, bête, Pour m'avoir ensorcelée. Little shoemaker, stop, stop. You're making my head spin, spin. You must not be crazy (stupid), crazy, For you have bewitched me. Petit cordonnier arrête, 'rête. Que ta volonté soit faite, faite, Toute ma vie le cœur en fête, fête Dans tes bras je vais danser Gentil petit cordonnier Little shoemaker, stop, stop, May your wish be done, done. All my life, my heart celebrating, celebrating, I will dance in your arms, Kind little shoemaker. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Shoemaker (Italian portion) From: Monique Date: 08 Nov 11 - 04:28 PM French rendition. Genie, your translation is very good! "Que ta volonté soit faite" is the very sentence in the Lord's Prayer = "Your will be done" |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Shoemaker (Italian portion) From: Genie Date: 08 Nov 11 - 09:24 PM Thanks, Monique. That's good to know. I realize that ""Que ta volonté soit faite" can be translated "Thy will be done" -- which is the way Google Translate translated it. (My translation came from my own studies of French + Google translate + my native familiarity with American English verbal expressions.) I just didn't think "Your (Thy) will be done" fit the story line of this song, largely because it does sort of connote something one would say to God. I took it more as the beautiful girl saying to the shoemaker something to the effect of "OK. You win. Whatever you want. I'll gladly dance with you the rest of my life." |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Shoemaker (Italian portion) From: Monique Date: 09 Nov 11 - 03:28 AM Genie, I agree with you about the connotation. We wouldn't actually say it in real life either, we'd probably say what you mention "C'est bon, tu as gagné, c'est comme tu veux". Btw we wouldn't say "ainsi soit-il" (let it be) either, which was -is?- said at the end of prayers before saying amen, but we could write "qu'il en soit ainsi" (let it be -thus-). |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Shoemaker (Italian portion) From: Monique Date: 09 Nov 11 - 04:20 AM I forgot to mention that the youtube I linked to above was by the guy who wrote the original French lyrics. I remember the song from my childhood, it was one of the songs in a chocolat Poulain album: there were the lyrics and rectangles where you glued the images you found in the chocolate tablets (brand Poulain) between the wrapping paper and the tin foil (scroll down the page at the link). |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Shoemaker (Italian portion) From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 09 Nov 11 - 10:16 AM "She turned and spun until dawn And, completely exhausted, began to cry." There's love for you - not. I'm glad that I heard a different version as a child. |
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Subject: The Little Shoemaker - French lyrics, translation From: Genie Date: 09 Nov 11 - 03:28 PM Thanks for the link and the expansion on the idioms, Monique. My issue with "Thy (your) will be done" as an English translation is that it's basically from the King James version of the Bible - English as spoken several centuries ago. (The New International Reader's Version of the Lord's Prayer translates that line as "May what you want to happen be done on earth as it is done in heaven." Various translations of The Lord's Prayer You're right, leeneia, that the French lyrics don't seem very clearly to be about love, but suggest a power struggle and ultimate submission to a magical master. And maybe in that context "Your will be done [Master]" fits the story better. But could also be taken as that she looked down her nose at the humble shoemaker, thought he was stupid or insane to think that she would stoop to dancing with one so lowly, but when he showed his power and cleverness via the "bewitched" shoes, she saw him in a different light and really did fall in love with him. The former interpretation seems to draw on the old Grimm fairy tale of Snow White, in which the wicked Queen, Snow White's stepmother, is eventually punished being made to step into a pair of heated iron shoes and dance until she drops dead. Le P'tit Cordonnier, of course, is a much more benevolent variation on that theme, but it still suggests the use of magical shoes to conquer a woman by making her dance wildly. Of course, in the English version, the woman gets the shoes that set her feet a-dancing and leaves the shoemaker heartbroken. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Shoemaker (Italian portion) From: Monique Date: 09 Nov 11 - 04:27 PM Ladies, is the expression "you make my head spin" related to love in English? It is in French -Cf Edith Piaf's "Tu me fais tourner la tête, mon manège à moi c'est toi...". When we say "He makes my head spin" it means "he's driving me mad"/"I'm mad about him". So were the shoes any sort of magical love potion or did she fall in love because he was smart enough to make such fabulous shoes... she'll never tell us! |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Shoemaker (Italian portion) From: Genie Date: 09 Nov 11 - 04:37 PM If something/someone "makes your head spin," it sort of means it's "stunning" or overwhelming. It's not necessarily a good thing -- it can mean that you're just made dizzy by something happening too fast and furious -- but it's often used in context of love, such as being "head over heels" in love or being "knocked off my feet." I get the feeling that this is part of the magic of the little shoemaker's dancing shoes (in the French version): they made her dance wildly and made her fall "madly in love" with him. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Shoemaker (Italian portion) From: Monique Date: 09 Nov 11 - 05:06 PM Then it's the same in both languages, in the context of love and in the "too much, too fast, too..." context. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Shoemaker (Italian portion) From: Cool Beans Date: 09 Nov 11 - 07:41 PM That song was the source of my first mondegreen. It was popular when I was a little kid in Brooklyn and I thought it was about Wayne Belardi, who played for the Dodgers. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Shoemaker (Italian portion) From: Genie Date: 09 Nov 11 - 09:09 PM LOL, CB! When we kids first heard the song we too mis-heard "ballare." We'd just sing "ba-la-day, ba-la-day" not knowing how it was spelled or what it meant. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Shoemaker (Italian portion) From: Cool Beans Date: 10 Nov 11 - 09:49 AM Much later in life I got to know the Gaylords: Ron Fredianelli and Burt Bonaldi. They were back in Detroit, their hometown, and were doing their first stage play, Neil Simon's "The Sunshine Boys," about an old vaudeville duo who had broken up years before but were getting back together for a TV comedy special. The real-life Gaylords had never broken up and had been together longer than the play's fictional performers. Fredianelli died a few years later; Bonaldi is still alive. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Shoemaker (Italian portion) From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 10 Nov 11 - 11:07 AM That's interesting, Cool Beans. Thanks. I've been playing this song on my dulcimer. The music where the words are "Shoes to set my feet a-dancing..." is magical. It's only a change from a D to Em, but somehow it seems to leave the earth and float in the air. It's definitely a keeper. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Shoemaker (Italian portion) From: Genie Date: 10 Nov 11 - 01:40 PM I still have one vinyl Gaylords LP and another Gaylords cassette album, but neither one has The Little Shoemaker On It. I still enjoy listening to their music. I've also begun to use their arrangement of The Little Shoemaker in some of my retirement community programs and occasionally in folk music song circles. Now I have to think about adding some or all of the French version. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Shoemaker (Italian portion) From: Cool Beans Date: 10 Nov 11 - 05:32 PM The Gaylords did a slew of singing commercials for businesses in Detroit. One that ran for years was for an auto dealer named Roy O'Brien to the tune of "The Little Shoemaker." I remember only the first couple of lines: Roy O'Brien keeps 'em coming and coming, They come from many miles away.... |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Little Shoemaker (Italian portion) From: Cool Beans Date: 10 Nov 11 - 05:39 PM Here's the Gaylords' Roy O'Brien commercial. Turns out my memory was imperfect. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wa0WsxWACuc |
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Subject: ADD: Little Shoemaker (1954 Gaylords Recording) From: Joe Offer Date: 11 Nov 11 - 05:20 PM With all the information posted above, I think we should have a post with corrected lyrics. Here's what I glean from the recording, and from the posts above: THE LITTLE SHOEMAKER Sung by The Gaylords English words by Geoffrey Clarmont Parsons, Nathan Korb, and John Turner, Phillips Music by Rudi Revil Peaked at # 2 in 1954 Tap, tap, stitch and tap , Make me a pair of shoes Le scarpine per ballare, ballare Balleremo tutto il dì Le scarpine per ballare, ballare Balleremo ancor così In the shoemaker's shop this refrain would never stop As he tapped away, working all the day. At his bench, there was he, just as busy as a bee, Little time to lose with the boots and shoes. But his heart went "pop" inside the little shop When a lovely girl set him all awhirl. She had come to choose some pretty dancing shoes And he heard her say in a charming way, "Shoes to set my feet a-dancing, dancing, Dancing, dancing all the day. Shoes to set my feet a-dancing, dancing, Dancing all my cares away. Then he tapped and he stitched, for his fingers were bewitched, And he sewed a dream into every seam, Making shoes, oh, so neat, just like magic on her feet, And he hoped she'd know that he loved her so. But she danced, danced, danced, as though she were entranced, Like a spinning top all around the shop. On her dainty feet she whirled into the street And he heard her say as she danced away, (CHORUS - Italian, then English) Notes from the YouTube Recording of the 1954 Gaylords Version (2:36 minutes): Originally a French tune called "Le Petit Cordonnnier." French was not the chosen language for the one verse in the tune where the boys sang in a different language, however. No, they were Italian fellows and most of their songs contains a verse of Italian.Wonder how that would work today. Hugo Winterhalter also recorded this with his orchestra with a "friend." Of course, we all knew it was Eddie Fisher but his name did not appear on the label. Winterhalter's version got as high as #9 on Billboard's charts. Notes from the YouTube Recording of the "Original" (?) Gaylords Version (2:16 minutes): "The Little Shoemaker" was adapted from a French song entitled "Le petit cordonnier," by Rudi Revil. English lyrics were later added, and the best-selling version of this song was recorded by The Gaylords and was a hit for most of the summer of 1954. At about the same time a recording by Petula Clark became her first chart hit in the U.K. The Gaylords would have several more hits before breaking up and becoming just a duo billed as "Gaylord and Holiday". This recording became so popular with kids that even the Captain Kangaroo tv show used it for several segments during its morning run in the 50's. Wikipedia Page |
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Subject: Little Shoemaker: lyrics, origin From: Genie Date: 11 Nov 11 - 05:58 PM It's good to have the full lyrics to the Gaylords' version all in one place, Joe. Thanks. However, they do not sing "... tutto il di," they contract it as " ... tutt' il di." That's part of what made it hard for me to be sure what they were singing. I'm glad the thread title no longer restricts the topic to the "Italian lyrics," but I don't think the discussion is limited to the Gaylord's recording either. It seems now to be about the original version as well as any other recordings. |
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Subject: Origin: Little Shoemaker (1954 Gaylords Recording) From: Joe Offer Date: 11 Nov 11 - 06:49 PM [sigh] Now, I have been known to be wrong at times, but I believe that tutto il di and tutt' il di are the same thing and mean the same, and are usually pronounced the same way. It's just like the decision whether to use "singing" or "singin'" when posting lyrics. I choose the former. De gustibus non est disputandum. As we used to say back home in Wisconsin, "Same difference," or "six on one and half a dozen on the other," or "from twelve o'clock to noon." As for the thread title, I included the reference to the Gaylords because most of us speak English here and are familiar with English-language popular music more than French, and that might help people recognize the song. The thread title is subject to change. I experiment to see what works best. I may well change it to Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) in a few days. This is not an exact science. [sigh, again] |
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Subject: Little Shoemaker: lyrics, origin, versions From: Genie Date: 12 Nov 11 - 04:31 AM (sigh) ; ) And "tutto il di" is not pronounced the same way as "tutt' il di" any more than "C'e 'na luna ..." is pronounced the same as "C'e una luna." When song lyrics call for a contraction, in order to fit the meter/tune, they are routinely written as contractions. (Check out "O Sole Mio," for example. It's full of contractions.) I've seen the lyrics printed as "... tutt' il di," which corresponds to the way The Gaylords sing the song, and seems also to sound more natural (less awkward). I just don't want people to think they need to pronounce the final "o" in "tutto," because it's awkward, and the Gaylords don't pronounce it. You're right, it's not an exact science. And I do hope you'll change the thread title, to be more inclusive, since the discussion and information have moved far beyond my initial query and beyond the Gaylords' recording. Thanks, Genie |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (1954 Gaylords Recording) From: Genie Date: 12 Nov 11 - 04:40 AM Also, "ancor" should be written as "ancor'" because it too is a contraction (of "ancora"). Not that it makes much difference, but I'm also quite sure The Gaylords sing "... making a pair of shoes" at the beginning, not "make me a pair of shoes." Listen carefully to the YouTube video/audio and I think you'll agree." That also fits the story better (as told in the first verse). |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: Genie Date: 12 Nov 11 - 02:40 PM Hmmm. Not sure what happened to my apostrophe, but " ancor " should be written as " ancor' " |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: Monique Date: 12 Nov 11 - 02:52 PM It's stuck to the quotes |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 12 Nov 11 - 07:01 PM Scanning of Italian verses comes quite close to an exact science, since Dante's time. Ma il mio mistero è chiuso in mescans for exactly eight notes, any more would be a mistake. French versology is another science, and no longer obeyed by modern songwriters. |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: Genie Date: 03 Jan 12 - 09:05 PM I've noticed that, Grishka. Same is true for English - different singers sing lyrics sometimes quite differently in relation to the melody notes. BTW, I just found this recording of Rosemary Clooney singing 'The Little Shoemaker', with her first chorus sung in French. But it's not the same French chorus as in the original song. |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: GUEST,Sanjay Sircar Date: 11 Jan 13 - 06:11 AM I always thought that the plot of this song as I knew it in English (in what was none of the "top of the pops" versions but the "children's version") was incomplete (cf. "Just Plain Folks"): and I always thought she was jilting the shoemaker, not just waltzing away in joy. As the translation from French above makes it clear, it is a faily close version of Andersen's "The Red Shoes" (cognate with the folktale mentioned above: see also, probably by pure accident the student video of the song on the www, where the girl's feet are mutilated, albeit before she gts the shoes). This makes it clear why there is a Danish translation of the song: it is "their" story... I would like to render the remaining stanzas to fit the standard English translation, but I suppose copyright rules would render this forbidden. Somehow, I will bet that there must have ben a German translation/recorded interpretation of this, as well one in Chinese... Sanjay Sircar |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: GUEST Date: 11 Jan 13 - 02:43 PM 1. In a song of French origin, why does the/an English translation/interpretation have the chorus in Italian? Was there an in-between Italian form, too? The function of such quasi-macaronic mixture, as with Rosemary Clooney mixing English with French when she sang it, must be to provide an additional ersatz "Continental ethnic" rustic folksiness to the text (see the cover illustration to the sheet music, as well), unlike the bilingual Japanese interpretation or interpretations, which simply work to clarify meaning (and assert some degree of cultural hybridity and assimilation by the appropriating culture). 2. Speaking of "folklorisation" in the sense of mutation/substitution and the role of imperfect memory in oral transmission, Mrs "Florrie" Philomena Shreshtha of Ootacamund had this as part of her standard repertoire at the YWCA there in the 1970s, and a line had moved from the set text to "...as though his fingers itched", which accords with the original sense. 3. Along the lines of appropriation of the tune for an advertisement, which is invaluable information of the sort one doesn't know till one is told: In non-negative parody (using a basic narrative for a new purpose not necessarily at odds with the oiginal), pointing to gender-differentiated roles in men's work and women's work, in a seminar in c. 1984/5 at the University of Queensland Department of English, I sang, using only the second stanza, of how, in return for doing my mending, a male "I" (egomorphism, also a feature of folktale mutation), "sewed and I stitched..." "making things oh so neat, just like magic swift and fleet" (substitutions to avoid the shoemaking), "*Then* she danced, danced, danced...", "*Now* come hear her say, as she sings it bright and gay...", "I gave her..." ---- and then what was intended to be an unexpected movement from qhat had been implied to be clothes, back to shoemaking and gender roles, "shoo-ooes to set her feet", and the interlocutor (doubling the speaker, also part of folklorisation) took up the chorus, "He gave me...shoo-oooes to set my feet a-dancing..." Sanjay Sircar |
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Subject: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: Genie Date: 11 Jan 13 - 08:57 PM Sanjay, in the Gaylord's version and Petula Clark's, it's obvious that the "lovely girl" is rejecting the shoemaker's attempt at wooing and she simply dances away with his gift, without a backwards glance. And I'm guessing the Gaylords included the Italian lyrics in the chorus because they were an Italian-American vocal group. Most of what they recorded either had some Italian lyrics or some sort of Italian theme or both. Same reason Freddie Fender included a Spanish verse in his recording of "Before The Next Teardrop Falls" and Julio Iglesias did a Spanish segment in his duet with Willie Nelson on "Spanish Eyes." |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: GUEST Date: 12 Jan 13 - 05:12 AM How nice of you to reply, and so commonsensically. 1. Yes, she dances away down the street in all the English renditions, which use the same translation, but in English he only hopes she'd know that he loved her so, he does not make it edxplicit, and her dancing away in delight might be seen as her not understanding his intention. I always hoped as a child that she would come back for another pair, he woul;d state his intention, and that things would turn out well. But in the enchantment is in his fingers only in Englsh, and thus arguably metaphorical and minor; BUT it is explicitly in the shoes themselves in French, as is his stated bargain; ditto her breaking it, her punishment, and her pleading for mercy as a result (though the final horrible results are open here, not explicit as in Andersen). The rejection is there but mild and can be explained away through the plot gaps in English; crystal clear and punished in French and in Andersen. Convincing? (a) Because of the more explicit enchantment in French, his "littleness" moves from Maerchen third-son hero "slightness" to accrete a more sinister/wizened-up/faerie inflection than in English, helped by the "Elves and the Shoemaker"), so that "elvish" is one of the words just automatically and unselfconsciously used for him in discussion - though not above), and not so mucgh by the seven-at-one-blow brave little tailor but other hunchbacked spiteful tailors in fairy tales (I cannot think of a concrete example, now, so i might be wrong)... Yes? (b) not in English, but as with the Grimms' stepmother, and as with Andersen, her explicit punishment is clearly "the girl's fault" (cf. Andersen and punishment of female by feet-pain in "The Little Mermaind", but here it is her willed sacrifice for love). So don't we have here a movement from folktale motif )"Snow White"), through folktalish art-tale ("The Red Shoes") to a slightly sanitised art-narrative ballad based on it (the French Little Shoemaker) to a much more sanitised/inexplicit/non-punitive/Oscar-Wilde-like "ache in the heart of unrequited love" form in English (the English Little Shoemaker)? I will bet the Japanese follows the English/American... 2. I note that there is another "Shoemaker" thread in this forum, but not linked to this one, which has the Italian/Spanish-sounding Italian lyrics in full. So this must have come between the French and Englsh versions, tob leave an Italian trace in the Gaylords, just as the French original left a French trace in Petula Clark. But who recorded this Italian/Spanish-sounding translation and when? After I submit this I will copy and paste from that (if I try to go back, I lose what I have written). 3. Was there then a separate Spanish translation? 4. You are probably right that the Gaylords were ethnically Italian, hence the Italian favour they included - this complements my "rusticising" point, I think. Then, P Clark's Frenchified version would be just "poshing up/cosmopolitanising" her rendition, similarly "to show she could"? I find this all very interesting. Thank you again. Sanjay Sircar |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: GUEST,Sanjay Sircar Date: 12 Jan 13 - 05:50 AM Two mistakes on my part. 1. When I said "left a [French] trace in Petula Clark" I meant "left a {french] trace in Rosemary Clooney". (a) What then, is the difference between the original French refrain and the Clooney French refrain? 2. No, there is no thread on mudcat cafe giving a whole story about the "Little Shoemaker" in Italian, such as that to which I referred: I must have been dreaming. I think what I must have been thinking of was http://www.superlyrics.com/lyrics/kGRU0h7DW2@H@HQ/The_Little_Shoemaker_lyrics_by_The_Gaylords.html Introductory line: "Tap, tap, stitch and tap, making a pair of shoes." CORRECT First & last chorus (in Italian, not Spanish): Le scarpine per ballare, ballare, Balleremo tutt' il dì. Le scarpine per ballare, ballare, Balleremo ancor' così. INCORRECT (Spanish?) lyrics: Lei scarpini de bailare, bailare. Bailaremos tutusi. Lei scarpini de bailare, bailare. Bailaremos con cosi. quotation ends But all this is old news and upthread and settled. (a) So we are then to conclude that there was never any full Italian tranalation of this song, nor any Spanish, at any time? Is the incorrect Spanish (as the Gaylords did *not* sing it), grammatically correct as transcribed? 3. I would dearly love to sing the song to the dulcimer, as set for it by the poster who wrote in here, wouldn't you? Sanjay Sircar |
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Subject: Chords: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: Genie Date: 12 Jan 13 - 04:09 PM Sanjay, what do you mean by saying you'd love to sing the song to the dulcimer "as set for it by the poster who wrote in here? The chords are quite simple (basic 1-4-5, with an optional 7th thrown in). But I'm guessing you meant something other than that. |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: GUEST,Mrr sans computer Date: 12 Jan 13 - 04:46 PM I thought this would be about the petit cordonnier who was the princess' only love and he asked her to sleep with him in a giant bed with a river flowing through it etc? This is a much more interesting tale, and I think I knew it in French at some point... |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: Sanjay Sircar Date: 12 Jan 13 - 08:56 PM I must apologise: senility overlaying an always overhasty tendency to babble are a bad combination when it comes to trying to make one's meaning clear, but they are a combination I am stuck with. 1. I cannot read music or play an instrument, so I meant, I would like to try my hand at singing thesong, accompanied by the accomplished musican who has newly set the song for the dulcimer, thus taking the song out of a 1950s ambience of clappers, noise and syncopation, into a more ersatz medieval-ish one, a more silvery sounding one; more magical too, in that any dulcimer after Coleridge and 1798 is that ("in a vision" once he saw "a damsel with a dulcimer, on the slopes of Mount Abora")... Are you the dulcimerist, "Genie"? 2. New thoughts on the dramatis personae and plot: (a) English: you cannot be jilted unless you have made your intentions clear; for simply tongue-tiedly "hoping" someone will "know you love them so" when you render them services will not automatically get the job done... You the lover "hoped she know", "but" she did not, and she she "danced away", in self- and possession-absorbed joy. Inarticulate love, unknown and thus unreciprocated, leads to pathos as a result of not being cared for, but not female rudeness-to-heartlessness on the one hand and punitive male cruelty on the other... French: you attempt clearly to make a bargain (you need not pay for my goods, but must love me"; you are quite as clearly rejected (you are daft to think I would make this bargain!); you go on ahead regardless; you still do not get your way, but in exchange for what you have given; but you have ensured you will get a payment (blackmail of a sort?); your victim agrees and pleads with you... But how far her capitulation is genuine (see the interpretation above in this thread: "she now realises...") or enforced and desperate is unclear, probably the latter (cf "the girl in Don't be Cross, it cannot be!"); unclear too is what happens then, unlike Grimm/Andersen; and so it remains open: does he let her off, does she truly love him, do they marry or do they part (she having learnt her lesson, but not he, either way)? (b) evidence for the English betwitchment of the fingers being minor or altogther metaphorical is its effect: the girl danced "AS THOUGH" she "were entranced", the trace of the actual french sorcery becomes a metaphor... Of course, "as though" could mean "because she was" indeed entranced, but need not necessarily mean this... There is a potential article here :-) 3. What I desperately am now yearning for is the non-original Rosemary Clooney French refrain to see what it does with the story... (cf. the nun in a "The Simpsons" episode singing NEW French words to "Dominque", thus the third set of these). Won't the original translator upthread, or any other, oblige? The song is accessible on the www... The refrain is only four lines long... 3. Mrr sans computer reinforces my point about the magicality of little French shoemakers in contes, and the to-our-minds excessive demands/force they make/employ. What is this other story with the giant bed and the river and where is it and can it be got in translation? Sanjay Sircar |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: beeliner Date: 13 Jan 13 - 12:52 AM I had that record, and as I recall, the flip side also had some lyrics in French. I don't know if the Gaylords could get by with that name today. |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: Sanjay Sircar Date: 13 Jan 13 - 07:17 PM Can you remember what the song was? French, or Italian? Important, because if Italian, it indicates only their own ethnicity/language; if French, then more "foreignness"/poshness/Maerchen-like "distancing" of the tale. Ah well, a translation of the Clooney French refrain will turn up when it turns up. I will try when I can to put the rest of the French story into metrical for, and I will write up a note on the difference between original and English derivation and see if anyone wants to print it. Sanjay Sircar |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: GUEST,Carl Ellis Date: 13 Jan 13 - 11:47 PM S. S. - The other one you are now interested in is "Aux Marches du Palais" (on Mudcat) a.k.a. "La Rève du Cordonnier", my CD of which I can't find when I want it (As Usual), & thus can't give you a decent transcription of the words more familiar to me. This thread also reminds me of a brief Cajun tune "La Petite Anna", which sounds to me as though it could be possibly be a relation, tho much of the story has disappeared: C'est la p'tite Anna, de Mozenne Meaux, Qui s'en va-t-en declinant. C'est la p'tite Anna, de Mozenne Meaux, Qui s'en va-t-en declinant. Ça va pire, il n'en restera pu', Il ne reste proche pu', il ne rest proche pu'. Ça va pire, il n'en restera pu', Il ne reste proche pu', il ne rest proche pu'. I'reste pu', que son rouleau; Que son rouleau, et son ruban rouge. I'reste pu', que son rouleau; Que son rouleau, et son ruban rouge. Ti' Mozenne Meaux, il va la tuer, Il la tourne trop vite, Il la tourne trop vite. Ti' Mozenne Meaux, il va la tuer, Il la tourne trop vite, Il la tourne trop vite. I have it on a tape of an early David Greeley recording, can't say where you might find that. My apologies to French grammarians, I don't pretend to be good at it, but it should serve. |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: Genie Date: 14 Jan 13 - 12:59 AM Sanjay, I'm not a dulcimerist - though I know a couple. |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: Monique Date: 14 Jan 13 - 07:37 AM Sanjay, we have the original lyrics of "Aux marches du palais" with an English translation on Mama Lisa's World French page and the original lyrics with no translation but with some information are on this Mudcat thread |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: Sanjay Sircar Date: 14 Jan 13 - 07:58 AM 1. @Carl Ellis: Thank you for the information on "Aux Marches du Palais" a.k.a. "La Rève du Cordonnier". Your CD will re-emerge when you are not looking for it. I looked it up on the four mudcat threads that seem to mention it, and saw, with the very intersting note by Joe Offer on the old origins of the song and the"family of tunes" to which iti s set, two interesting things, viz. (a) that French traditional songs are regarded as children's songs and as such have less prestie and attention (I know the phenomenon well, for when I had a subject it was children's literature, which is how I come to this 1950s little shoemaker, which was part of my own childhood, for the story) (b) that in the genuinely folk "La Rève du Cordonnier" the princess prefers the shoemaker and it is thus a third-son/princess story. 2. This proves/indicates that in French folktale shoemakers and lovely maidens, princesses or just girls who like to dance, go together (not as far as I know the case in English folklore). 3. But what I asm now left with is - - one Rosemary Clooney new French refrain to the 1950s Little Shoemaker - two French texts possibly related to the 1950s shoemaker - three [turtle doves -- no, only joking] French texts I cannot read because I did not have that sort of edjimakyshun... So would/will you help with any or all of the translations (Clooney is on youtubeand upthread), pls? FWIW, anything I write I will acknowledge all help recd. 4. What then, did the Gaylords sing on the other side of their "Little Shoemaker", and what was its non-English component? If it was French it implies something different from if it was Italian. @beeliner: with me, the Gaylords could still call themselves that, because I still follow the older ordinary use of the word (as did a collegegirl in Delhi in the early 1970s, and an old Chinese lady and an old South Asian one in the mid 1980s, quite innocently)... 5.@ Genie: if your dulcimerist friends ever come this way, and are interested in accompanying me in my intended but as yet unwritten amateur mtrical-rhyming Englishing of the hitherto "untold story" in English, they would be very welcome. 6. In case anyone is interested: just as there are folk faiytales, there are art-fairytales in a secondary genre which has its roots in the primary one (and in-between genres such as art-retellings/elaborations of folk fairy tales, into which I suppose most of Disney would fall). This secondary genre has, empirically, three varieties in English: burlesque (comic parody), romantic, and allegorical (the least close to the actual folk faiytale genre). As a child, the bewitched fingers of the 1950s shoemaker and the girl waltzing "as though she were entranced", and the open ending not-in-marriage, made me group this song in my head with similar romantic art-fairytales (Kunstmaerchen). I see now that I was right to do so, in that there was more enchantment in the story before, a Kunst predecessor in Andersen, and a genuine Maerchen motif in the punishing shoes (for cruelty/then vanity/now heartlessness), going from peripheral to the story in Grimm to central thereafter, plus other traditional French shoemakers and damsels (as generic "relatives"). All that remains is to see whether there is anything at all additional in the Japanese. I doubt it, but it is possible. Sanjay Sircar |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: Sanjay Sircar Date: 14 Jan 13 - 10:36 PM @Monique: Thank you: your post overlapped with my lst one. The translation is useful, the information ditto. Are you able to translate Clooney's four lines and/or the lyric above given by carl Ellis? I beg pardon for asking, and "no" will do nicely as an answer. Sanjay Sircar |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: Monique Date: 15 Jan 13 - 03:20 AM Sanjay, here you are. The translation is quite literal: It's Mozenne Meaux' little Anna Who's leaving and declining (or "she's declining more and more") It's Mozenne Meaux' little Anna Who's leaving and declining (or "she's declining more and more") It's getting worse, there'll be nothing left of her, There's almost nothing left, there's almost nothing left, It's getting worse, there'll be nothing left of her, There's almost nothing left, there's almost nothing left, There's nothing left but her roller, But her roller and her red ribbon, There's nothing left but her roller, But her roller and her red ribbon, Little Mozenne Meaux is going to kill her, He makes her spin too fast, he makes her spinn too fast. Little Mozenne Meaux is going to kill her, He makes her spin too fast, he makes her spinn too fast. I don't know Clooney's four lines but if you provide them or find a way for me to listen to them, I can translate them. |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: Sanjay Sircar Date: 15 Jan 13 - 04:11 AM 1. Thank you, ma'am. If it is a folksong, it is yseful. If it is an art-song, ditto. For either way, the girl is eing danced to extinction. 2. Here is Mlle Clooney: www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsXl9qYlnMA I do hope it works, and my renewed thanks regardless. Sanjay Sircar |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: Monique Date: 15 Jan 13 - 05:45 AM @ Sanjay: I couldn't understand everything she says but the first line is: Chantez [-][-]dansez, dansez, dansez, dansez dans les prés Sing [-][-] dance, dance, dance, dance in the meadows I couldn't understand the end of the 2nd line. @Genie: can you get what I couldn't? |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: Sanjay Sircar Date: 15 Jan 13 - 11:15 PM @Monique: What is Anna's "roller", please? I do hope Genie or any other kind Francophone will listen to see if Rosemary Clooney can be rendered comprehensible. Sanjay Sircar |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: Monique Date: 16 Jan 13 - 03:33 AM @Sanjay: I take the word to mean, in this case, a hair curler. It might also be a rolling pin but I don't think the girl would dance with a rolling pin in her hand -though I admit that going to dance still having a curler in one's hair is also weird but we don't know where the whole thing happens. No other meaning of "rouleau"/"roller" fits and I couldn't find any special meaning of the word in any Cajun online dictionary. |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: Sanjay Sircar Date: 16 Jan 13 - 04:17 AM @Monique: Thank you. There was a hairstyle called a "French pleat" or "French roll" which women who did not have hair long or luxuriant enough used to fold and tuck in upon a longish "base" of padding. I wonder if the "curling pin"/"roller" for the hair could be this object? It would be less ridiculous than a curler itself... The twelve dancing princesses only wore their shoes out; being worn out by dancing and dancing shoes is a reversal that is most interesting. What a thing it is that Clooney's French is so indistinct! :-) Ah well, someone, somewhere will fathom it sometime... Sanjay Sircar |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: Monique Date: 16 Jan 13 - 05:03 AM Sanjay, in France we call this hairstyle "banane" (banana), I haven't the slightest idea if it's what the Cajun call "rouleau". |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: Sanjay Sircar Date: 16 Jan 13 - 06:33 PM @Monique: more and more cultural information, thank you. We must now find some Cajun person to enlighten us... :-). The hairstyle need notbecaclld "rouleau", just the padding for the hair, for it to make sense. Do you think I should put out a separate call on this forum for a Francophone willing to listen to R Clooney, to see if it gets someone who has not read this post, willing to make a stab at her three (?) other French lines? I do not want to offend against decorum. Sanjay Sircar |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: Genie Date: 17 Jan 13 - 03:02 PM Sanjay, what did you mean by "4. What then, did the Gaylords sing on the other side of their "Little Shoemaker", and what was its non-English component? If it was French it implies something different from if it was Italian." Are you assuming that the B side of the Gaylords' "Shoemaker" had a non-English component? The did not sing anything in French on "The Little Shoemaker." |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: Genie Date: 17 Jan 13 - 03:16 PM Sanjay, The most I can make out of Clooney's French lyrics is that it sounds like she's singing something like "Chantez, m'en l'apprend tes danser, danser, Dansez, dansez dans le pré." That doesn't make too much sense or sound grammatical (I'm far from fluent in French, though I studied it for 2 years in college), but it kind of sounds like maybe she's sining something like "Sing, so I can learn to dance, dance, dance in the meadow." Does that make any sense to you, Monique, and can you maybe fill in the gaps or figure out the part that sounds like "m'en l'apprend tes"? |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: Sanjay Sircar Date: 17 Jan 13 - 05:43 PM @Genie: 1. Yes, a poster posted that on the other side of the Gaylords' "Little shoemaker" there was a song sung by them with lyrics in French - not Italian, but French... (see upthread). If this is so, it means that their interpolation elsewhere, of foreign-language lyrics other than Italian, their own ethnic language, would be along the lines of Rosemary Clooney's (and her music director)... Depending on the song and the interpolation, It would betoken sophistication, cosmopolitanism, the American melting pot and/or the rustic/rural/faraway/fairytale-distancing, etc. etc. 2. We are getting somewhere with Clooney's French! Monique got "dance in the meadow" and you have got something along the lies of "Sing, that I might learn to..." which DOES add an additional component to our interesting little tale... I wonder if the lovely girl is telling the shoemaker to sing, or onlookers, or what? This is fun, though some might find it irritating... Sanjay Sircar |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: Monique Date: 17 Jan 13 - 05:52 PM No Genie, it doesn't make any sense to me but it might be "Chantez, moi j'apprends à danser..." which means "Sing, I'm learning to dance...". I asked a friend this afternoon and she heard "Chantez mon enfance et dansez..." which means "Sing my childhood and dance..." I don't know if you say that in English, but in French, to sing your childhood (or any other moment) means to sing songs from your childhood that makes you feel like you're still back then. I can't find out if she sings the same thing twice or not but I have the feeling that she doesn't, making things worse! |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: Genie Date: 17 Jan 13 - 07:42 PM Monique, Rosemary Clooney does sing the French part twice and it seems like she's repeating the same line. I don't know how good her French pronunciation was (Nat Cole's was pretty bad on some words), but here are the sounds I'm hearing: Chantez (or "chanter") Dansez (or "danser) "mahn" (as in "m'en," not "mon") "teh" or "tay" - Here's what it sounds most like she's singing: "Chantez, chantez m'en apprendre tes danser, danser, Danser, dancer dans le pré. Chantez, chantez m'en apprendre tes danser, danser, Danser, dancer allegré." (although if "allegré" is right, Rosie's pronunciation sounds more like "alluhgray" than "allehgray".) Google translate reads that as "Sing, sing to teach me your dance, dancing, Dancing, sprightly dancing.: That fits my admittedly limited knowledge of French, as well as the feeling of the song. It's probably a partial mondegreen on my part, but I'm pretty sure of all of it except the "allegré" and (even less) the "apprendre tes" part. BTW, sometimes its as hard or harder to discern the sung lyrics in one's own native language! |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: Genie Date: 17 Jan 13 - 07:57 PM BTW, if I enter "Chantez, chantez m'en apprend tes danser, danser, Danser, danser allegré." in Google translate and have their French robot read it out loud, it sounds almost exactly the way Clooney sings those lines, but it translates "apprend" as "learn," without "teach" as an option. If I enter "... m'en apprendre tes danser ..." instead, it gives me "to teach me your dance" as an optional translation but pronounces "apprendre" as two syllables, so it doesn't sound the same. Would the word "apprendre" be prounced as "apprahn" even in casual speech or slang by a Frenchman (the way we Americans often drop the endings of common words)? |
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Subject: Audio: Le Petit Cordonnier (Lemarque) From: Genie Date: 17 Jan 13 - 08:46 PM Here is "Le Petit Cordonnier" chanté par Francis Lemarque |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: Genie Date: 17 Jan 13 - 11:25 PM Correction of my last post. It should read: Here's what it sounds most like she's singing: "Chantez, m'en apprendre tes danser, danser, Danser, dancer dans le pré. Chantez, m'en apprendre tes danser, danser, Danser, dancer allegré." The word "chantez" is not repeated within any line of the chorus. Monique, "Chantez mon enfance et dansez" would make sense too, but if that's the line, Clooney is pronouncing "mon" as if it rhymed with "en," not with "on." |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: Monique Date: 17 Jan 13 - 11:27 PM The first word can be "chantez" (imperative) or "chanter" (infinitive), it could also be two words "chante et"..., "tes" is a possessive determiner that must be followed by a noun, it doesn't fit. "apprend" is pronounced "apprahn" but "apprendre" is pronounced "apprahnd" in the most casual case. I recorded this first part and slowed down the tempo but it doesn't help much. When I first heard it, I heard "chantez... la France, dansez, dansez, dansez dans les prés" but I thought it was recorded much later WW II to tell the French to sing and go dance in the meadows. It can't be "allégré", there isn't such a word, "allez gré" doesn't mean anything. I hear it as some "vré" but there's no "vré", only "vrai" (true) and it doesn't make more sense. Well, as we say, "c'est clair comme du jus de boudin" (literal translation: it's as clear as black pudding juice) |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: Monique Date: 17 Jan 13 - 11:31 PM Genie, at first I also thought that it might be "maintenant" slurred in "main'nant" but I hear no -"nant". |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: Genie Date: 18 Jan 13 - 06:56 AM Monique, my French-English dictionary gives this definition of "allègre": Adjective (a) lively, jaunty, merry (music); light-hearted, cheerful, gay (It would seem this is the 'Frenchified' version of the Italian "allegro.") Also, can't "Chant, et m'en apprends ta (tes) danser" mean "Sing(ing), and teaching myself your dance"? Or can't "Chanter m'en apprends ta danser" mean "Singing in teaching myself your dance"> I get that the gist seems to be she's saying that she's singing in (or "and") learning (teaching herself) to dance in the meadow and to dance cheerfully (gaily). Song lyrics sometimes do play fast and loose with normal grammar and twist pronunciation a little to fit the meter and rhyme. |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: Monique Date: 18 Jan 13 - 07:44 AM Genie, yes "allègre" means indeed what you say, but the accented "è" is stressed and open, the final "e" doesn't sound, and there's no way that it could be stressed and both "è" and "e" be pronounced "é" because it wouldn't be understandable in French. I agree that songs sometimes do play fast and loose with normal grammar and twist prononciation a little but even loose grammar and twisted pronunciation need to be understandable. It's as if I pronounced some English word sounding like /stayPLAY/ (don't read it again but just say it over and over...) you'll probably wonder for ages what I meant (it's the next quizz, ah!) It can't be "ton/ta/tes" (possessive determiners) "danser" (verb); even in the very unlikely case where "danser" would be used as nominalized verb, it'd be "ton", not "ta". Is there any sheet music or a record sleeve or any document with the printed lyrics? |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: Genie Date: 18 Jan 13 - 08:46 AM I'll take your word for it, Monique. The dictionary I have does say it's "allégre," so that's probably not what Clooney is singing. It does, however, give the word "gré" as a noun meaning "liking." So would "Danser à le gré" mean "to dance to my liking" (or, more idiomatically, "to dance for my pleasure" or "to dance any way I like?" It would be great to find the sheet music and/or a recording by someone else who uses Clooney's French lyrics to the chorus. |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: Genie Date: 18 Jan 13 - 08:59 AM What do you think of this, Monique? (This is what it sounds to me like Clooney is singing in French, though I realize that some different words and phrases can sound alike.) Chantez, m'en apprends ta danser, danser, Danser, danser dans le pré. Chantez m'en apprends ta danser, danser, Danser, danser à le gré. Google Translates that as : Sing, teach me your dance, dancing, Dance, dance in the meadow. Sing me teach your dance, dancing, Dance, dance at the wishes. I'd rephrase that as: "Sing, (in) teaching me your dance, dance, Dancing, dancing in the meadow. Sing, teaching me your dance, dance, Dancing, dancing as I wish." |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: Monique Date: 18 Jan 13 - 10:12 AM Génie, what you have rephrased makes sense in English but the sentence as it is in French doesn't. Google translator didn't "notice" that "ta" can't be used with "danser", that "m'en apprend" needs a subject unless you consider that "Chanter" is the subject -then it's an infinitive, not an imperative-, besides, "en apprendre" means "to learn/to teach about something and it's followed by "sur/au sujet de/ à propos de"; it's either "apprendre quelque chose" (to learn/teach something), or "apprendre à +verb" (to learn/teach how to +verb) or "en apprendre sur/au sujet de..." so you can't have "m'en apprend à + verb" unless you speak some gibberish (I said gibberish, not slang). "À le gré: There's "à la + femenine noun in singular" but there's no "à le + masculine noun in singular" as there's no "à les + either gender noun in plural" because it's "au" and "aux". Ditto for "de le", "de les": it's "du" and "des". Then it can't be "à le gré". Moreover, though "gré" means "pleasure, will, fancy" and even if it were "au gré", you wouldn't have "au gré"-period. It's always "au gré de -who/whatever-" or "à mon gré, à ton gré..." (to someone/something/my/your... will/pleasure/fancy), or "de bon gré" (with good will) but it's a different pattern. So forget "à le gré". |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: Genie Date: 18 Jan 13 - 03:55 PM Thanks for refreshing my memory on several points of French grammar, Monique. It's interesting to to me that even with the various suggestions of what it sounds like Rosie Clooney is singing in French, you can't 'hear' anything that makes sense even as slang. That makes me wonder whether maybe Rosie was singing in some dialect such as Canadian French or Creole, or maybe her pronunciation wasn't very good. : ) All we can really tell is that she's singing about singing and about dancing in the meadow. |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: Genie Date: 18 Jan 13 - 04:10 PM FWIW, Monique, the Limeliters shortened the lyric phrase "pour apprendre à jouer de l'épinette" in the song "Le Jouer de Luth" to "pour apprendre jouer l'epinette," and when you listen to their recording, it sounds like [English 'phonetic' spelling] "poor apprahn joo-eh ...". I.e., I cannot hear the "-dre" ending on "apprendre" or the "à" either. The Limeliters were not native French speakers either, but their French pronunciation generally seems pretty good, and given the way they sound on that line, I wonder if Clooney was also singing "apprendre." |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: Monique Date: 18 Jan 13 - 04:29 PM Since she made this stuff herself, I don't think she fancied singing in any special brand of French since after all, her audience was supposed to be native English speakers, not natives of any French, it was just to give a French note to her rendition. Genie, you mean this song? |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 23 Jan 13 - 01:36 PM I've been playing this on my dulcimer. I think I mentioned this somewhere already, but it's a good tune. The E minors in the refrain are meltingly delicious. It makes me sad to hear of people changing this song (English version) from an innocent tale of puppy love to another tiresome tale of female badness. Some say she jilted him. How could she jilt a man she had never had a date with? Others would have it that she ungratefully took the gift of shoes then danced away. Pfui. Yes, I know, it's just a song and she's only imaginary. But yesterday I read a true story in the paper of a 16-year-old who posted online that he wanted to rape an 11-year-old. He posted her picture so everybody could see. Several other people went online to encourage him and tell him how. Fortunately the cops caught up with him after 'indecent liberties with a child' but before an actual rape. Sigh. Baseless hostility against young females - it never seems to stop. From jokes, to songs, to movies, to crimes, it never stops. But back to ths Shoemaker: there's another verse, ya know. It's not well known. He accepted her card, turned it over, staring hard. Barely raised his head as he glumly said - "Shoes - they cost ten thousand lire, lire with the discount, let me say. Shoes - they cost ten thousand lire, lire Thanks for stopping have a nice day." You need some sixteenth notes to do that last line. Naturally she fails to detect the flame of love in that, and that's a good thing, because most young females find instant ardor frightening. (They fear it's that baseless hostility in disguise.) Fortunately for mankind, ballet shoes wear out fast. She'll be back, and by that time Cupid will have whispered in the shoemaker's ear those beautiful words that reach every entertainer's heart: When's your show? and How much are the tickets? |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: Sanjay Sircar Date: 23 Jan 13 - 06:15 PM How nice to hear from the lady who plays it on the dulcimer. do like the parody. It is not a matter of changing to "another tiresome" tale of female badness, I think: it is a matter of going from 1950s Anglophone changes (sanitising, or jhust abridging?) to a form of the original, which has genuine folklore affinities, and trying to incorporate accretions along the way such as those as sung by Rosemary Clooney. The standard 1950s form can remain sacrosanct for those who like a refreshingly new tale of female innocence rather than heartlessness... The tickets are free, and you are most welcome. Sarcasm on scholarly endeavour is quite enough of a reward for one's efforts in this regard. Sanjay Sircar |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: Jack Campin Date: 23 Jan 13 - 06:48 PM The YouTube links Joe posted in November 2011 have gone. |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 24 Jan 13 - 11:54 AM It's merely commercial pop music, no matter what language it is in. The 1950's version sung by the Gaylords was written to appeal to the young audience who listened to 45's on the radio. As for the French version where she dances till she dies, I don't know whom that was supposed to appeal to. There are men who enjoy seeing females, especially young and pretty ones, suffer but I don't think they form much of a consumer base. That version went into the Great Garbage Can of Forgotten Culture, and I think that's a good thing. By the way, I know a woman named Bridget who is a speech therapist, and she throws some possible light on the life of the shoemaker of the song. I saw Bridget after she had moved to New York City and had obtained a job in the public schools. She was disappointed because she wasn't doing actual speech therapy. Her usual charge had a story like this: A young child, maybe 4, 5 or 6, goes to the doctor for some reason, and the doctor says "Is he talking?" The parents look at each other and seem amazed. "No he isn't! We never noticed!" The child's story turns out to be something like this. He is the fourth of sixth children. The TV is going all the time and computers are beeping. Parents may be working long hours. The older children are good at manipulating others for attention, and the babies unabashedly cry when they need it. The little kid, however, gets ignored. If he's lucky, he gets sent to a bridget, and she encourages him to talk. I think the shoemaker was once a child like that, and he grew up and remained silent. The SHE comes along... |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: GUEST Date: 24 Jan 13 - 12:18 PM Here is the Japanese version. Could anyone provide the text in Japanese (and a translation)? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbnYMN4-zKU |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: Mrrzy Date: 14 Feb 13 - 02:13 PM OK, I can't find the link that you had me listen to, Sanjay Sircar, can you repost? I will put in what I heard when I hear it again... i'd love to hear what Monique thinks she heard (BG)... |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: beeliner Date: 24 Mar 13 - 04:13 PM What then, did the Gaylords sing on the other side of their "Little Shoemaker", and what was its non-English component? If it was French it implies something different from if it was Italian. Here is the chorus, which also begins the song: Mecque, Mecque, m'qu'est que c'est? Please tell me when you'll name the day Mecque, Mecque,, m'qu'est que c'est? The day when you and I are one. The only French word in any of the verses is "oui". |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: Cool Beans Date: 25 Mar 13 - 11:54 AM I can tell you, because I got it from Burt and Ron (the Gaylords) themselves, that they originally called themselves the Gay Lords. The term "Gay" merely meant "Happy" in the 1950s (to most people). |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: Sanjay Sircar Date: 26 Mar 13 - 02:39 AM Hold on - it is coming. I thought this thread had been killed stone-dead forever by a diktat on the nature and value of this song (see above) , so I did not bother to post the long note I had on the *other* Japanese version etc. etc., but I will. Sanjay Sircar |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: Sanjay Sircar Date: 26 Mar 13 - 03:10 AM What I had written earlier, but not posted, in view of the juridical verdict that (a) this song is merely commercial pop music, no matter what language it is in, (b) that an audience for the French version where she dances till she dies is unknown to some, apart from the men who enjoy seeing females, especially young and pretty ones, suffer but who might not form much of a consumer base and (c ) that the French version went into the Great Garbage Can of Forgotten Culture, and that is said to a good thing (for these, see above) is as follows: Of course, documentation would be needed for any claim that Revil's lyrics have been forgotten in areas Francophone, or superseded by English ones…( I think there might be amateurs singing the Revil version on youtube, but have forgotten) 1. A link to the Gaylords rendition (2:20 minutes) is still at www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeJDmYgn9Xc 2. It is not clear whether there was any difference between the 2:36 and the 2:16 ("original") links in the now withdrawn youtube links given by Joe Offer on 11 Nov 11 above. 3. Here, cut-and-pasted are the notes Joe Offer transcribed Notes from the YouTube Recording of the 1954 Gaylords Version (2:36 minutes): Originally a French tune called "Le Petit Cordonnnier." French was not the chosen language for the one verse in the tune where the boys sang in a different language, however. No, they were Italian fellows and most of their songs contains a verse of Italian.Wonder how that would work today. Hugo Winterhalter also recorded this with his orchestra with a "friend." Of course, we all knew it was Eddie Fisher but his name did not appear on the label. Winterhalter's version got as high as #9 on Billboard's charts. ________________________________________ Notes from the YouTube Recording of the "Original" (?) Gaylords Version (2:16 minutes): "The Little Shoemaker" was adapted from a French song entitled "Le petit cordonnier," by Rudi Revil. English lyrics were later added, and the best-selling version of this song was recorded by The Gaylords and was a hit for most of the summer of 1954. At about the same time a recording by Petula Clark became her first chart hit in the U.K. The Gaylords would have several more hits before breaking up and becoming just a duo billed as "Gaylord and Holiday". This recording became so popular with kids that even the Captain Kangaroo tv show used it for several segments during its morning run in the 50's. The songs have been withdrawn, but the note to the 2:36 link (is at http://www.frequency.com/video/little-shoemaker-by-gaylords-1954/23495388 The note to the 2:16 link is at http://www.frequency.com/video/gaylords-little/26758314 The end of the note is truncated, but it has been transcribed in full above. 4. The Hugo Winterhalter/Eddie Fisher 1954 recording and the Alma Cogan 1954 recording, mentioned in the Wikipedia link also given by Joe Offer above, do not appear to be on youtube. 5. Nor does the Raquel Rastenni, acc. Harry Felbert 1954 Danish recording, "Den lille Skomager" words by Knud Pfeiffer (and Rudi Revil, but *not* the adapters into English according to an entry in the World Cat catalogue). 6. However, there is a song in Danish charmingly sung by amateurs, probably to the same words , at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Im3gPDgqt4E It would be interesting to see what these Danish words say, and whether or not they are directly from the French or via the English language adaptation, as I think likely. The length is 3:09 minutes, but that does not tell us anything conclusive. The performers use sticks, not clappers, I think. 7. Japanese Singer Peggy Hayama (2:01 minutes) is at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbnYMN4-zKU She has the first stanza and chorus in English; then in Japanese. It is probably thus a direct translation from the English-language words. It appears to omit the second stanza of the English adaptation/abridgement, so it is a further abridgement of the Gaylords, Clark, Clooney, et. al. . Here is a male singer singing it in Japanese (2:11 minutes): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4iDBxcspzw There is no English. But there does appear to be a second stanza. The Japanese words to the first stanza+chorus sound the same in both. The song goes more slowly as the male singer sings it. 8. The Gaylords have initially "Tap, tap, stitch and tap, making a pair of shoes"; Clooney has "Little shoemaker, stitch and tap" (2), Petula Clark goes straight into the song, as do both Japanese singers. 9. To my ears, the clappers are a stronger feature in Petula Clark and Rosemary Clooney than they are in the French (sung by Francis Lemarque at www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMp1GD14uxY, (2:49 minutes), and the Gaylords. 10. There is a charming animation on youtube too (cf the puppet-scene as Leslie Caron sings 'Hi-lili hi-lili hi-lo" in the relevant film), and at least two amateurs rendering the tune on the accordion , so it might not be entirely forgotten popular culture there today. 11. The French original narrative by Rudi Revil, as translated above, appears to use the folktale motif of the shoes that go on dancing without the wearer's volition in the Grimms, a motif adapted and made more central to his narrative by Andersen. In Rudi Revil, the maiden is thus rendered contrite, but the narrative has an open ending. There is nothing about her dancing to death (except by association with the former narratives). The English-language translation/adaptation/abridgement omits much of the detail of dialogue, and characters' interaction, truncates and thus significantly alters the narrative (leaves it even more open: did he pursue her, did he ever speak, did he get over her the next day, did he do what his French model did: did she return, what happened to her?) and the characterisation (and motivation). There is thus a movement over time in the softening of the use of the motif. He is not at all inarticulate in the original; only in English-language revision. It might possibly be an interpretive mistake to draw too quickly on psychology for literary works in stylised genres, be they works old or new, high or "commercial", works which make few but gestures in the direction of literary realism or real life. It is a truism that the "merely commercial" work of one age is or can become the classic literature of a subsequent one (cf. Shakespeare). If there is any interest in the song, certainly the French composer Francois Pantillon cannot be called "Forgotten Popular Literature", the French might confirm or deny this about his music and Revil's lyrics in circles Francophone, and I wonder who the arbiters of what or should not be forgotten are, and by what or whose authority they speak. Sanjay Sircar |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: Sanjay Sircar Date: 26 Mar 13 - 03:23 AM Mrrzy: I apologise: I did not see your post of 14 February. Here is the reference to the youtube clip of R Cloondy singing intrguiing (to some of us) 4 lines in "French": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsXl9qYlnMA I will cut and paste the comments to that clip on youtube separately (I think they are relevant to our concerns here). Sanjay Sircar |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: Sanjay Sircar Date: 26 Mar 13 - 03:46 AM Mrrzy, Genie, Monique (and anyone interested in the matter): I also have some thoughts privately sent to me by Genie and Monique on what certain words in those Clooney lines might mean , but am unable to post them publicly without permission, so I hereby ask for it. And yes, I would still like to sing the song to dulcimer accompaniment, be it my version-in-progress, incorporating the sense of the Revil extra lyrics, or any other, so any passing dulcimerist is welcome to PM me... Here are the youtube comments cut and pasted from the above youtube Clooney page. The first comment in particular seems relevant to (some of) our concerns here: QUOTATION FROM YOUTUBE COMMENTS BEGINS ildeNotesMusic 2 months ago I believe this is pretty much what Ms. Clooney is singing in French: "Chantez, m'en apprend* se danser, danser, Danser, danser dans le pré. Chantez, m'en apprend* se danser, danser, Danser, danser allegré. * It probably should be "apprendre," but maybe she's just kind of dropping the end of the word to fit the melody line. ("Sing, teach me to dance, ... , in the meadow. Sing, teach me to dance, ... sprightly dance.") Reply · in playlist Gaylords - The Little Shoemaker WildeNotesMusic 2 months ago Can anyone who's fluent in French transcribe the French chorus lyrics that Rosie Clooney sang? All I can make out for certain are the words "Chantez" and "dansez" (or "danser"). Reply · gladasya10 4 months ago In the early 1970's, Captain Kangaroo would show a sequence featuring this version with Cosmo Allgretti (Dennis) and Debbie Weems (Debbie) respectively miming the shoemaker and the customer. Reply · VealParmigiana 7 months ago I haven't heard this before. My favorite version of this song. Rosemary was a great song interpreter. Petula Clark's version is my second favorite. Reply · Bluejeans0701 2 years ago I did not know that Rosemary Clooney had recorded this song. She amazingly sang it and proved how talented she was. I am glad to hear her voice. Thanks for posting this clip. Reply · QUOTATION FROM YOUTUBE COMMENTS ENDS Sanjay Sircar |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: GUEST Date: 03 Sep 13 - 04:14 PM The flipside was called Mecque, Mecque. |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Little Shoemaker (French/English/Italian) From: GUEST,Gi Date: 09 Jun 22 - 09:14 PM The Di Mara sisters, did a version (italian & english ) in 1959 on a LP tiltled : Cha Cha Italiannna |
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