Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Bernard
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 08:29 PM

Define 'no'!!

Sorry, but it's a daft remark in the vein of all the other daft remarks preceding.

How about all the 'sinister sub-plots' in Enid Blyton's 'Noddy' books?

The written word is capable of being interpreted and misinterpreted as many ways as there are people reading it, if not more!

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 02:52 AM

McGrath of Harlow (I have never come across the expression "the holy people" - as opposed to "the chosen people" as a term for the Jewish people.):

Deuteronomy 14:2 ... For you are a holy people to the LORD your God,

Deuteronomy 7:6 ... For you are a holy people to the LORD your God;

Isaiah 63:18 ... Your holy people possessed Your sanctuary for a little while, Our adversaries have trodden it down. ... Your holy people possessed the land for a little while. ...

Deuteronomy 28:9 ... "The LORD will establish you as a holy people to Himself,

Deuteronomy 26:19   and that thou mayest be an holy people unto the LORD thy God ...

Deuteronomy 14:21 "You shall not eat anything which dies of itself ...... You may give it to the alien who is in your town, so that he may eat it, or you may sell it to a foreigner, for you are a holy people to the LORD your God. ...

Leviticus 20:26 ... Be my holy people because I, the LORD, am holy.

Exodus 22:31... "You must be my holy people.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 03:23 AM

How to put this without sounding as though I am condescending to an idiot:-

I imagine Sydney Carter was pretty well versed in The Sermon on the Mount, but really he wasn't the sort of person that would spend his time examining the books of the OT looking for salvation.

And he certainly wasn't the man who would look through those pages seeking for ways to denounce and insult a tranche of his fellow man.

His brand of Christianity was people based. And very gentle and decent.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: theleveller
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 03:46 AM

"His brand of Christianity was people based. And very gentle and decent."

WLD, if I were a Christian, I'd say 'Amen' to that. Seeing what's happening amongst right-wing Christians the world over at the moment, it's a great pity there aren't more like him

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: mattkeen
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 04:49 AM

Perfectly put WWD and the leveller

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 05:22 AM

"Deuteronomy 14:2 ... For you are a holy people to the LORD your God,"

That's "a holy people" not "the holy people". There's a world of difference.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Betsy at work
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 05:28 AM

This topic won't keep me awake at night - come on - it's almost a religuous version of McNamara's Band . Lord of the Dance / Leader of the Band - same difference.
Get a life and worry about something offensive which this song was clearly never intended to be.
Only zealots can see such a meaning .
As TJ of San Diego (sort of )said earlier, no wonder we can't get "peace on earth" if we're digging up and raking round shitlike this. (With full apologies to TJ for my colourful paraphrasing).

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: mattkeen
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 05:28 AM

I happen to have some sympathy with what you say, but you are quoting from a translation of the Bible (unless you happen to own the original) and arging over a single word of this type is rather pointless

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: mattkeen
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 05:29 AM

My previous post was directed at manitas at work

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 07:50 AM

As mattkeen says we are looking at a translation which is, at best, questionable when it comes to meanings. However, in Guest, Gerry's list there is not one single mention of THE holy people. By his own logic (it accuses the Jews, 'the holy people' etc.) his examples prove that the song is not anti-Jewish (semitic would include other Arabic peoples of course). THE holy people must be something different to 'A holy people', 'MY holy people' and 'YOUR holy people'.

Ta-da!

:D

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 08:01 AM

Anyway, the only thing the holy people - whoever exactly they are - did was to say it was a shame. In other words, they spoke. Those who actually carried out the whipping and stripping and hanging were the governing Romans. Nowhere does the song contradict this historical fact.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 08:03 AM

I always used to think Agatha Christie was a good plotter of thrillers - a good writer.

Then one day someone pointed something out to me. The reason its so damn difficult to spot who the murderer is, is that they are not real characters - they are stereotypes.

A good writer writes proper characters, whom you can imagine sitting down with and talking and you will be able to guess some of their opinions - and what it feel like to be in their presence.

Sydney Carter was not a stereotype. His character had no elements in it that would consider harbouring the criminal intention of which you accuse him.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 08:42 AM

Is the piece of cloth on the back of an armchair antimacassar ?

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: mattkeen
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 09:38 AM

WLD on roll now
+1 from me

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 10:47 AM

I'm an Israeli Christian with Jewish background. I think the song is incredibly corny, but don't find it offensive (well, not anymore so than Louey, Louey or My Sharona) or anti-semitic. It's one thing to say that the Jews killed Jesus, which is the same thing as saying that the French massacred the Hugeonots on St Bartholomew's Day, but entirely another to claim that all the Jews did so and that their descendants are responsible and guilty of the same.

I think the issue is bigger than who actually thrust in the nails.
Is there any evidence of any sort that the Romans didn't care one way or another about Jesus?

"By his own logic (it accuses the Jews, 'the holy people' etc.) his examples prove that the song is not anti-Jewish (semitic would include other Arabic peoples of course)."
Anti-semitic is a term specificaly coined for hatred of JEWS. That comment just shows ignorance about the subject.
Whatever the article or possesive pronoun used, there is only one people in the Bible reffered to as holy. I would recommend picking up a nice grammar book and reading up on usage of articles.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: glueman
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 11:28 AM

It might be appropriate here to say Jesus was a good Jew with some very unconventional views - but still a practicing Jew. The song's worst trait as Volgadon says is its corniness, an easier thing to prove than race hatred and appreciable by anyone who likes Jewish humour.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 11:33 AM

NeilD--that wasn't addressed to you. I know you're a regular member. So relax, OK?

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Arkie
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 01:15 PM

There are those who are searching for something to offend them. I have known people who could be offended by the 'abc's if they worked at it hard enough. Are they really thin-skinned or simply trying to make people around them uncomfortable.

From the accounts in the Scripture, we can find examples of Jews doing terrible things as well as good things. The prophet Micah describes a scene from his day "you who hate good and love evil: who tear the skin from my people and the flesh from their bones; who eat my people's flesh, strip off their skin and break their bones in pieces; who chop them up like meat for the pan, like flesh for the pot." While this is probably not a literal description of the actions of the people it does suggest unacceptable behavior enough to warrant the destruction of a nation. Christians have done horrible things as well. One only has to scan the pages of history. Terrible things are done by one group of people to another around the globe in our own day. It is a mistake to deny that a group with which one is associated has done the atrocious acts recorded by history. It is also a mistake to condemn people in the present for wrongs that were done in the past. But if we acknowledge the evil perpetrated in the past we can guard against a repeat of the actions far more effectively.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 01:52 PM

I can't see the words "the holy people" in any of those texts Gerry cited. That's niot a quibble - a difference between "a" and "the" - the latter is excsusive, the former isn't.

And in fact all those texts are routinely used in Christian liturgies, where they are used to refer to the body of Christian believers, addressed as "a holy people".

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 02:12 PM

Scores on the doors. Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic when Carter wrote it? A resounding No.

Is 'Lord of the Dance' sometimes seen as being anti-semitic? Yes.

Do the people who see 'Lord of the Dance' as anti-semitic present a persuasive case? My answer is No; your mileage may vary.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Ravenheart
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 02:18 PM

I keep hearing a kind of muddying of the distinction between Sydney Carter's intentions, along with the intentions of his interpreters and those of us who respond positively to the song and intuitively catch its conscious drift, and *Others* who bring to it a very different historical background and set of assumptions that may not be transparent to us.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Ravenheart
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 02:46 PM

The most minute examination of the features of one side of the coin might throw hardly any light on what lies on the other side of the coin--that just occurred to me.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: oggie
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 04:34 PM

"Isaiah 63:18 ... Your holy people possessed Your sanctuary for a little while, Our adversaries have trodden it down. ... Your holy people possessed the land for a little while. ... "

With semantics you can argue almost anything. In this case, quoted by Gerry, IF God is addressing the Jews then there is obviously a distinction between the priestly caste and the Jewish people. If the Jews as a whole where the "Holy People" then it should raed "...You holy people...".

Now it is possible to argue that this is a translation of an oral text etc etc but if you are going to base your argument on semantics that doesn't wash IMO.

Given the state of the world I can see much more important things to worry about than whether one song is anti-semitic (like the further proliferation of nucleur weapons in the Middle East for example).

Steve

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Dave MacKenzie
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 06:35 PM

I've just checked the GNB Cocordance, and that translation only uses the phrase "Holy people" three times, once as "Your holy people" (Is 63.18) and twice as "God's holy people" (Ezra 9.2 & Is 62.12), and never in isolation.

As SC said

Whenever there's a lynching
The Devil will be there-
A witch or an apostle,
The Devil doesn't care.

No doubt if he were writing now he'd have written something about Jews, Muslims etc.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Gulliver
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 09:04 PM

The Jews couldn't have been the "Holy People". See what Martin Luther said about them here.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 11:36 PM

And that was necessary to this discussion in what way?

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Ravenheart
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 11:54 PM

But Martin Luther is widely admired still for his courage in taking on the church hierarchy, etc. But what a godawful and unacknowledged shadow side to the founder of Protestantism!

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 02:55 AM

Kind of illuminates the idiocies of religions over the years!

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 03:27 AM

Oggie, that does reffer to the Israelites. Isiaiah is addressing the Lord.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 03:36 AM

Oggie, I think it's pretty clear that God is not addressing anyone in the Isaiah quote; rather, someone (maybe Isaiah) is addressing God. And, yes, there are more important things to worry about than whether one song is anti-semitic, but then there are more important things to worry about than folk music - does that mean we should wind up Mudcat? The question Len Wallace asked at the start of this thread has generated well over 100 posts, so I guess some people think it's important to worry about whether a popular song is anti-semitic.

Phil Edwards: it seems to me that to be unpersuaded you have to
1. hold that the "they" who thought it was a shame he danced on the Sabbath are not the "they" who hung him on a cross, and/or
2. hold that the Jews (or some Jews) really did crucify Jesus, and/or
3. hold that no Jews crucified Jesus but that it isn't antisemitic to say anyway that they did.
Or do you hold some 4th position that I've overlooked?

Volgadon, I have no idea what you mean when you say, "It's one thing to say that the Jews killed Jesus, which is the same thing as saying that the French massacred the Hugeonots on St Bartholomew's Day...." It's my understanding that the French - at any rate, some of the French - did massacre Huguenots on St Bartholomew's Day, whereas it was the Romans (OK, some Romans) who killed Jesus. Are you really saying that telling a lie is the same thing as telling the truth?

Weelittledrummer, I've had nothing to say about Carter's intentions. Once you write a song or poem, it stands on its own - you aren't there to explain to everyone who reads it or hears it what your intentions were when you wrote it. My claim is that a reasonable person hearing or seeing those lyrics could well come to the conclusion that the "they" who said it was a shame he danced on the Sabbath were the same "they" who hung him on a cross. Forget what you know about Carter; can you not agree that a person coming across those lyrics could reasonably come to that interpretation?

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 03:58 AM

I just grabbed the first example that came to mind. If you were to say that the French murdered Hugeonots you wouldn't be accused of francophobia, would you? Ok, is Capone less culpable in the St V's Day massacre than Burke, Goetz and Carey?
The Romans were the ones that did the actual crucifying, but at whose insistance?

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 04:41 AM

Tsk, tsk Volgadon. Tell you what. I'll do a deal. You send me a book on grammer and I'll send you a book on internet smileys. I thought the 'ta-da!' at the end of my 'logic argument' was enough to show it was intended to be humourous but surely the ':D' should have given it away! As to your comment about anti-semitic, well, here is what the Meriam-Webster dictionary has to say -

Main Entry: Sem·ite
Pronunciation: \ˈse-ˌmît, especially British ˈsç-ˌmît\
Function: noun
Etymology: French sémite, from Sem Shem, from Late Latin, from Greek Sçm, from Hebrew Shçm
Date: 1848
1 a: a member of any of a number of peoples of ancient southwestern Asia including the Akkadians, Phoenicians, Hebrews, and Arabs b: a descendant of these peoples
2: a member of a modern people speaking a Semitic language

Main Entry: 1Se·mit·ic   
Pronunciation: \sə-ˈmi-tik also -ˈme-\
Function: adjective
Etymology: German semitisch, from Semit, Semite Semite, probably from New Latin Semita, from Late Latin Sem Shem
Date: 1813
1 : of, relating to, or constituting a subfamily of the Afro-Asiatic language family that includes Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic, and Amharic
2 : of, relating to, or characteristic of the Semites
3 : jewish

So, yes, anti-semitic may have been changed to be specificaly anti- Jewish but it is still incorrect usage of the term. If people mean anti-Jewish then why not say anti-Jewish?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 05:10 AM

Ia a canary up the side of a certain lady's underwear auntie-mary ?

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 05:19 AM

Gerry, those of us arguing against the proposition are not denying that it's impossible to come to that interpretation, but we do disagree that it's "reasonable".

Just because the Bible calls the Jews "a holy people" does not mean that any reference to "the holy people" must always therefore refer to the Jewish people. That's a big step, particularly when viewed in context - it's about "the holy people" objecting to Jesus breaking the Sabbath to cure the lame, and I would argue that a more reasonable interpretation would be that it means the priests and religious authorities who enforced the Sabbath.

The verse in question falls into two distinct sections, each telling a different and unrelated part of Jesus's story. It's possible to conclude that "they" in the second part refers to "the holy people" in the first part, but is it reasonable? I don't think so. But even if you do accept that interpretation, that's still just a summary, necessarily abreviated, of the Gospel story - the (Jewish) religious authorities brought Jesus before the (Roman) civil authorities as a means of ridding themselves of a troublemaker. They weren't responsible for the act of crucifixion, but they were responsible for bringing it about.

I don't believe it's anti-semitic to tell a historical story just because it may show Jews in a bad light (we'll leave aside the question of whether the Gospels are accurate history) - what is anti-semitic is to then use it as an excuse to persecute the entire Jewish people, but there's nothing in the song to suggest that. As I said, I believe the two halves of the verse are unrelated and the more obvious interpretation is that "they" just means those in power.

Gerry, it's possible to come to the conclusions you do, but I think it takes some effort and ignores the more obvious interpretations. If some wish to go to that effort in order to take offence, that's up to them, but don't expect the rest of us to agree. In particular, don't expect the rest of us to adopt lyrically inferior words just because some are over-sensitive.

A final point: LOTD is a Christian song, and Christianity and Judaism, whilst they have much in common, are inevitably in opposition as they disagree over the fundamental question of whether or not Jesus was the Messiah. That is not to excuse anti-semitism of any sort, but it is inevitable that any expression of Christian belief has the potential to be offensive to Jews, and vice versa. Both sides should learn to live with it, like many of the Jews who have expressed an opinion on this thread, rather than seek out petty offence when there are many more real and intentional examples of anti-semitism to address.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: mattkeen
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 05:50 AM

Regarding the quality of the song and its triteness etc.

Its a childrens song isn't it? And taken on that level a good one.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 05:52 AM

I misread the ':D', I thought it was a regular 'D', for Dave.

"So, yes, anti-semitic may have been changed to be specificaly anti- Jewish but it is still incorrect usage of the term. If people mean anti-Jewish then why not say anti-Jewish?"

It hasn't been changed, it was coined to mean anti-Jewish and that was how it was used. His name eludes me right now, but an Austrian Jewish scholar used it in the 1860s to criticise some virulently anti-Jewish scholar and 20 years later, Wilhelm Marr widely used the term to reffer solely to Jews.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Bob L
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 06:30 AM

At the risk of lobbing in a smoke bomb, may I point out that the fourth Gospel consistently refers to Jesus' persecutors as "The Jews". Now a moment's thought should disabuse anyone of the idea that this means Jews in general, let alone all Jews: Jesus himself was Jewish, and so were his (original) followers including the Gospel's own author. Nevertheless, it has been grievously misinterpreted in the past as an excuse for antisemitism.

The point being that a phrase like "holy people" is just as open to being misunderstood, given a conspicuous absence of common sense.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 06:33 AM

Phil Edwards: it seems to me that to be unpersuaded you have to
1. hold that the "they" who thought it was a shame he danced on the Sabbath are not the "they" who hung him on a cross, and/or
2. hold that the Jews (or some Jews) really did crucify Jesus, and/or
3. hold that no Jews crucified Jesus but that it isn't antisemitic to say anyway that they did.

I hold position 1 and always have. So did Sidney Carter, who actually said that when he wrote the word 'they' he didn't mean it to refer to 'the holy people' - which in itself is a very odd way of referring to the Jews in general, and a very straightforward way of referring to contemporary people who were ostentatiously holy.

I think all you've persuaded anyone of here is that people can take offence at anything if they try hard enough.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 06:46 AM

BTW the holy people is one way the Jews reffer to themselves.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 07:35 AM

Dear Guest Gerry,

i can honestly say that before joining mudcat, I had never encountered anyone who gave that interpretation to the song.

I was once ordered to teach some 16 year olds in the remedial class the Jane Austen short story which is in the form of a letter and begins:-

My Dearest Fanny

I think the class would have agreed with you that it doesn't really matter what the artist intended. After all a fanny is a fanny.... and mention of one in an English lesson doesn't happen every day.

Whilst I could understand and even sympathise with the need for a bit of smut, I really can't understand why you need to insist that this song could bear this interpretation.

Much has been said of the lyric's corniness. To myself it conjures up to me the memory of the funeral service of a dear colleague who had been killed in a motor accident.

it was a multi-racial school and there were colleagues of every religion - sikh, christian, muslim, jewish - plenty of atheists. And there we all were thinking about this friend whom we had known as a lively, goodlooking, humorous young man - less than a week before.

someone just read the verse of Lord of the Dance about, 'I am the life that will never, never die.....' And it was one of the most moving and consoling moments I have ever experienced.

You take what you want from Carter's lyric.

My personal feeling is that if you get into the habit of looking for hatred and negativity in the works of your fellow man, you run the risk of developing a talent for abuse that you will find hard to control. And one day people will be counting the seconds til they can be quit of your company.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 08:00 AM

Bravo, Al

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 08:10 AM

has anyone mentioned the similarity of the tune to Haydn's Surprise symphony?

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 08:39 AM

"My personal feeling is that if you get into the habit of looking for hatred and negativity in the works of your fellow man, you run the risk of developing a talent for abuse that you will find hard to control." Weelittledrummer, I find this very rich, coming from the one who began an earlier post with "How to put this without sounding as though I am condescending to an idiot:-" By the way, you may be amused to know that a fanny is not necessarily a fanny - in American usage, fanny means backside, but in Australian usage, it refers to a woman's genitals, and is considered a rather vulgar term.

So let me propose an experiment. Write out the stanza from LotD on a piece of paper, show it to a friend who is not familiar with the song, and when the friend has read it, ask whether your friend thinks that the "they" in the second half was meant by the author to refer to the holy people of the first half.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 08:43 AM

From everything I know about Sidney Carter, he was a gentle, sincere, and loving Christian who would have never intentionally written an anti-Semitic verse. But he was also a product of a religious tradition that has a long and dark anti-Semitic past. Could he have used phrases and images from that tradition that can be interpreted as anti-Semitic? Apparently he did.

I recall a discussion in an English class long ago on whether or not Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness was racist. Certainly Conrad's message was anti-racist. That is what we call civilization is just a thin veneer, and that if the white man is moved to a different environment, he is no different than the black. However, to make that point, Conrad used what we have come to understand as racist imagery, very disturbing racist imagery. But then Conrad was a product of his own times and traditions. Let's cut both him and Carter a break, and let's look at their intentions, not just their metaphors.

Bottom line: if you don't like that "holy people" verse in Lord of the Dance, don't sing it. No one is forcing you to.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 08:44 AM

Do you mean "take the words out of context and see what you can read into them", Gerry? Not much of a test, then - anyone can read whatever they like, it becomes just an elaborate association game. I will have a go.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 08:45 AM

> show it to a friend who is not familiar with the song, and when the friend has read it, ask whether your friend thinks...

What on earth is that going to accomplish? So one more person thinks something and adds their interpretation to the stewpot, so what? We have a whole thread full of them already.

Al does a very nice line in subtlety. Think you missed it...

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 08:53 AM

OK. My two cents:

I danced on the Sabbath
And I cured the lame
But pious people
Said it was a shame.
I was whipped and stripped
And hung on high
And left up there
On a Cross to die.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 08:58 AM

Don't worry about the mistake, Volgadon. Many people read what they believe into a message rather than what is actualy there or what is intended. That's what this thread is about :D

So, anti-semitic was first coined by an Austrian-Jewish scholar in the 1860s was it? I have no reason to doubt that he did use it in the context you suggest but I seriously doubt that the phrase had not been used earlier. The Etymology of the word appears to be Late Latin / Greek / Hebrew so, when the Romans took over the area they were oppressing not only the Jews but also the Gentiles who lived there. The invaders took the land regardless of creed so they were not being particularly anti-Jewish but they were indeed anti-Semitic in the true sense of the word. I would have thought that the Phoenicians, for instance, who were non Jewish semites would have complained severely about the anti-semitism of the Roman government!

However, as I can offer no proof of this I must accept that your Austrian scholar did indeed invent the phrase. Now we come to another point. If he did, who is to say he was right? Was everything that scholars said in the 1860s correct? Did he realise that by hijacking the phrase 'semite' he corrupted the description of a whole peoples of Asia. How dare he! It's as bad as hijacking the word 'gay' and giving that a whole new meaning.

I fully understand that most people believe the term means anti-Jewish. But again it is not necessarily true that most people are right. You carry on using the term anti-semitic and I will stick to anti-Jewish if you don't mind. And if I believe my fusilier is a happy chap I will also continue to call him gay...:-)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 09:05 AM

OK, George, don't take them out of context. Write out the entire song, and after your friend has read it, point to the "they" and ask whether it might refer to "the holy people."

Bonnie, I gather that by Al, you mean weelittledrummer. Maybe I have missed his subtlety. Maybe you could explain it to me. As to what my experiment might accomplish, I'm amazed that anyone could hear that verse and not think the second half referred back to the first, and you're amazed (and I apologize in advance for pretending to speak for you) that anyone could think it did. The experiment might convince one of us that the other is closer to being right.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 09:12 AM

Well, many people on here think it did, so that equals a lot of amazement.

Al is perfectly capable of speaking for himself. If he feels like it.

Don't know if anyone is ever going to convince anyone that anyone is Right.