Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: Andrez
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 04:05 AM

So it seems like the cat got Normans loose tongue? Either that or he just doesn't have the "ticker" to engage in a public discussion about his "individual" approach to commercial practice.

Just so you know folks, I've followed up again re AMMA with the Aust Arts Council who seem to be hosting/sponsoring the AMO website.

My first mail was on July 22nd. They replied on 24/7/08 saying that someone would make contact. On 4/8 I followed up again re the outcome of my email.... i.e. to speak to an actual human being, with still no reply from the Arts Council. Today, the 12th Aug, I followed up with them again by email. If there is no reply through the customer service people at the front end of the Arts Council say by the end of the week, then the process escalates and I'll start to make contact re the issue through management or political channels.

Either way the Australian Arts Council needs to justify their decision (or be held accountable) for giving any internet spAMMA a cloak of respectability. Will pass on any info re contact if or when it happens.

Cheers,

Andrez

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 02:01 AM

Contact us: http://www.amo.org.au/contact_email.asp?id=13

Sent off today

TO

Name:   AMO Team
Role:        Content Producer

Subject : AMMA

This company, advertised on your website has unfortunately raised some suspicions, as evidenced by concerning anecdotal accounts found on the web.

Anecdotal claims of lack of information regarding registration of business names, demands for large amounts of money, etc. etc. Also some very strange emails, including what appear to be apparent veiled threats demanding removal of any comments about them from Mudcat.org - a US musicians contact and discussion site.

Can you verify that they are legitimate?


~~~~~~~~~
Thank you. Your message has been sent.
Mudcat time: 12 August 1:33 AM EDT

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: GUEST,A very well read independent musician
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 10:25 PM

Need I say more....

Thanks
From
A very well read independent musician

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: Dennis the Elder
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 05:11 PM

Oh I do like a challenge, please answer it Norman and/or Lynda

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 12:34 PM

To paraphrase a point made by our elusive Australian friends:

There are two kinds of Music Businesses:

1) There are those whose work speaks for itself. They work hard and achieve success for the artists they represent. They have have named artists, web presences, phone numbers for their many international contacts and physical offices with their names on the door.
They don't need to approach artists, because artists are beating a pathway to their door.

2) Then there are "Web Music Businesses" who claim to do A&R, licensing, publishing and all kinds of other stuff. They harvest email addresses of independent/ unsigned artists from websites and listings, use lots of exclamation marks in their correspondence, and should you reply to them, will promise the moon on a string (for a small fee). I can't quite figure why anyone like this should need money up front, what with those grammy-winning artists, gold and platinum albums and number one hits. Maybe the royalty cheques take a while to come through.

Norman/ Lynda, if you're still reading this.

It's easy to slag off bloggers and independent musicians.

It's not so easy to name *actual* record labels you're "affililated to"

Or *actual* number one hits you publish.

Or *actual* platinum selling artists you've worked with.

Or *actual* artists who've covered songs you publish

Or *actual" grammy awards your artists have won.

Go on, make our day!

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 10:39 AM

Probably the only publishers honoured by a Pete Seeger song, If I 'ad an 'AMMA.

and here they are a million years later e-mailing us all

These compilation albums are weird - I was on one once - not done by AMMA, but I ended up on an airplay chart. DJ's were playing my song.

Having said that I never got any PRS money. Usual thing. If radio stations HAD to log every play and pay for them, I imagine it would have paid for itself.

I did send an album to this AMMA company and they asked for money which I just didn't have. so that was that. I think maybe if you use a place on a compilation disc like this - you need to take special advantage - run your own campaign. Its no use just handing money over. You have to have a plan in mind. Its like buying a new guitar or amplifier. Get out of it what you can!

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: Andrez
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 08:15 AM

Dear anon guest, I'm afraid to say that that particular link makes AMMA look positively kosher but I think I'd be best advised to give both a miss.

Cheers,

Andrez

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: GUEST,Lojo
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 09:17 AM

Thanks to everyone for this information.
(Including Norman and Lynda and all their exclamation points.)

For once I decided to do my homework rather than just hitting the reply button. Glad I did! (I beleive that's a legitimate exclamation point.)

In fact, I think I'll sign up with Mudcat to stay involved with and be supportive of this wonderful community of musicians. (I checked - you definitely have a web presence.)

Here's to all of us hard-working musicians - cheers!
Lojo

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: Andrez
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 06:52 AM

Just wondering if Norman hasnt had a sex change operation and has now morphed into Lynda. Their writing styles are so similar.

Anyway, trawling the web as you do when looking up a scAmma I found this little gem about how they are promoting themselves at this site. This is a Canadian musician who I hope hasnt really taken up and "offers" that might have come his way. The link is as follows:

http://www.michaelgeorgeband.com/guestbook

It seems that they like to make comments in the guestbook of an artist trying to "impress" and big note themselves. I mean, look at the rubbish below, it dates from about 2006 I think:
-------------------------
> Hi M & S ,
Thank you for the excellent music and information you forwarded to us.
I'm sorry if it has taken us some time to get back to you but we receive over 100 CD's every week and it takes some time to work through them all!
We listen to them all with a view to where the artist and music might best be placed if it is of suitable quality. Most is not of course!
As we are overseas in Europe, Asia and the USA frequently, office/studio time for listening to new material is also often limited. We have recently just returned from Russia and EEMC 2006 so are back on the trail for great music.
I have today had a good listen to your excellent offering and have this day replied in writing to you with a letter of offer.
You should receive this in the mail in the next 7 to 10 days.
We have affilliations and associations with over 60 international labels and are expanding all the time! Our work spans publishing, licensing, film and radio in many countries.
We also have several number one artist, Grammy award winning artists and gold/platinum award winning artists and writers in our catalogues/roster who we do regular licensing, publishing, sub publishing and publishing administration work for.
So please do give our letter of offer some serious consideration and we look forward to hearing more of you and your music in the coming months.

Kindest Regards,
Norman McCourt. (Director-Australian Music Marketing Abroad) (Director-Australian Radio Services) (Editor-An'R artist, repertoire and international licensing)
---------------------

All this from a company that doesn't even have a registered business name, let alone a website! Give us a break!

Cheers,

Andrez

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: skarpi
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 06:34 AM

Hallo all

we have this word in Icelandic " Amma " and it means granny.

ATB Skarpi

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 05:17 AM

That is AMMA's biggest problem, they are not transparent.
Set your fees and services so everything is in black and white is a good start. Just do a google search and you will find lots of information on these spammers.

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: GUEST,Lydia
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 04:28 AM

Hi. I see the thread is about a month old but I received an email from them this week (I am based in South Africa).
Has anybody had any substantial contact or more information about them since? it does seem a bit dodgy 'cause I requested more information and received and email with a document to complete (listing all the songs and authors etc of the band) and stating that I will receive more information from them as soon as they receive the completed list. Not transparent enough for me I reckon!

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 03:43 AM

I received a spam email from AMMA today with a brief message to send my music to them. I followed up the email to find out what services the Company offered. I was contacted by a very rude and arrogant person at AMMA named "Lynda Jones".

Here is the email exchange:

August 4, 2008

Hello Lynda,

I would like the terms of the Agreement and the fee structure and your services first thanks.
The information you have sent me explains little about your services.

Regards,

Shane
…

Hello Shane,
Those things are impossible to say because we don't even know what you do.
In any case I wouldn't know. I'm not in legals or accounts only promotions!
All agreements are different that I know! Completely different!
Fee structures I don't believe we have such a thing because every case is different and some fee like mechanicals etc are set by local laws and legislations etc collection societies whatever.
Not by us.


Kindest Regards

Lynda Jones (Distribution Manager- AMMA).
….


I have heard too many negative things about AMMA, you are just preying on Artists.
I am sure Norm McCourt will be impressed with your lack of communication skills and the way you have contacted me with your spam emails. Good luck!

……

Hello Shane,
Oh your a "Mudcat" blogger! That's what we thought.
Trouble with all these bloggers is they never do anything just complain! And thenblog some more!! It's a life style!
On the www you can say anything and they do!
Trouble is, anyone with anything or relevance to say won't put it up on a blogg site! Why would you? Too busy doing your stuff!
And you don't want anyone to find out what you really know!
I have no problems communicating with anyone in the know!
But when people start to get ahead of themselves with questions that can't be answered!
If you don't like the music bizz... Don't get involved!
It's not for the faint hearted that's for sure!
We probably get between 50 and 100 emails a day from people like yourself which doesn't phase us but it wastes your time!
And we were in this industry before you were born and will still be in it when you finally get a job doing something else so...
Don't say I didn't tell you so!

Kindest Regards

Lynda Jones (Distribution Manager- AMMA).
………

After this experience I would stay a million miles away from this Company!

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 03:14 AM

I am sure Amy Winehouse's Management and label will be not pleased with AMMA using a image of her to promote this service called "promotion'.
Stay away from this Company!

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: GUEST,WestCan
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 02:07 AM

Not much text to quote... just an image with Amy Winehouse and some enticing verbiage around it. There was enough of a "story" to prompt me to check it out. That was why I did the original Internet search.

I guess these guys don't need a web site but they do need to send spam to the world. I received 2 copies the same day.

Once I found this site, they quickly entered the pixel bucket.

Michael

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: Rowan
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 07:22 PM

Hmmm...For someone who wants this thread shut down, Stormin' Norman's sure got a lot to say...
Not really. More like 'very little to say but using lots of words to say it.'

Why would some PUBLISHING company want their customer to pay them 2700 dollars?
From a cursory spin though the link posted by Andrez it seems, to me at least, that at least some of the money is spent on international jaunts by the likes of Barry and Norman; nice work if you can get someone else to pay for it.

I also got the impression from that site that folks performing in blues, roots and other forms of "folk" music and lore would not be AMMA's cup of tea.

Mudcat performs yet another vital community service.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: GUEST,Anna
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 08:52 AM

I also got an email from them and I was wondering what this was about. I would like to know where they got my email from.

If they look for artist through print media or concerts or whatever, how come they found me, since I am not doing concerts neither am I in the print media?

Why would some PUBLISHING company want their customer to pay them 2700 dollars? Usually the artist gets money from them.

I could write more but most has been said already and I am just angry and confused right now.

x

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: GUEST,Jean Michel Daudier
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 08:41 AM

I'am from Miami. Today, I received my third email form AMMA asking me to send my music. I'm glad to found this blog to help me making a decision. Thanks to all of you and keep up the good work.

Jean Michel Daudier
Singer & Songwriter

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: GUEST,Chordman,UK
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 11:59 PM

Andrez is right Michael (West Can) These people are definitely 'not the full shilling' A genuine publisher will take your songs, offer you a proper contract and pay you money. You don't pay them money to promote you! I too wondered about the Amy Winehouse connection and the legal status of using her image for their promotion! To quote our good friend Andrez again, there are indeed enough swindlers out there in the real music industry. No need for you to give your hard earned cash to a vanity publisher like AMMA.

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: Andrez
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 05:09 AM

Oh ho, they are still at it are they?

The good thing about this thread is that it puts a SPANNA into a certain SPAMMA's wagon wheels by alerting artists to the possibility that something may not be all that legit.

There are enough dodgy promoters in the music industry as it is! Dunno if you felt like posting the letter Guest, WestCan, just to see how they are presenting themselves?

Cheers,

Andrez

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: GUEST,WestCan
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 02:43 AM

I received 2 unsolicited emails from this organization, much like others who have written in this forum.

Like the others, I did an Internet search as any business operator would as part of due diligence. This forum was one of the first that was found.

Any organization that is attempting to connect with potential international customers must surely realize the need to have a website that will provide legitimacy for the seller of these services. A website would be very important for you even if its only role is to define the proposed service in more detail -- the email does not provide any information regarding this.

The legality of what has been posted on this forum is certainly not an issue -- here in Canada the business information offered to people has much more detail. I believe the same is true in other countries as well. The protection is usually for the consumer -- not the supplier.

However, that being said, I am not sure what Amy Winehouse has to do with AMMA. Since the photo of her has a copyright notice that it belongs to AMMA, this sparked the interest that generated my web search research. The marketing email (spam to some) worked in that regard.

At this point, I can't find any reference to a connection between Amy Winehouse and AMMA, although I am keen to learn. Is Amy Winehouse a client? or have you just licensed her image for your marketing program?

If AMMA does not have a legal connection with Amy Winehouse, this would appear to be a major international legal problem. Does her management know about this marketing program?

If AMMA is monitoring this forum, perhaps you can provide some details. If you closed a deal for Amy Winehouse for a $2700 fee... I'll sign up tomorrow! This could be super!

Michael

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: JHW
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 05:34 AM

QED

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: Pistachio
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 05:45 PM

A QUOTE from Norman, via Max...about messages up.
"And as for 75,000 bloggers involved with mudcat...
From what I've read, seen and heard they would appear to be a bunch of losers at their place of work with too much time on their hands!
Now what are the words of that song...

Fat drunk and stupid Got nothing to say
Fat drunk and stupid Gonna say it anyway"   
UNQUOTE.
To Norman: How unkind, how unnecessary and how dare you generalise. The Mudcat forum has many intelligent, thoughtful and caring members. Read further threads and learn. Your cheap swipe at spellings was quite unnecessary too, go away and grow up.
Yours sincerely, Hazel.

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 05:13 PM

No, I don't think it's necessary for a business to have a Website. If a business deals with people face-to-face and forms long-term relationships, that's the best way.

BUT.... if you are doing business by e-mail or phone solicitation, don't expect people to trust you unless you have a visible presence. A Website is a pretty good substitute for a physical presence because it has at least some feeling of permanence.

AMMA didn't want to provide that feeling of presence and permanence, and now wonders why people aren't willing to give the firm their trust.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: JHW
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 04:58 PM

Norman McCourt, Director AMMA

It was I who started this thread, wondering if an email I had was legit.
Of course you don't have to have a website but there can be few businesses and organisations who have not a web presence courtesy of other sites.
I'm sorry you have taken this one so badly but boy am I glad I made that post and didn't do business with you!

John Wilson

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: Andrez
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 06:36 AM

The thing about business models of any sort is that sooner or later there is a contract between two parties for the exchange of goods and services regardless of how these are conceptualised or produced.

Using the example of the proposal outlined by Guest .rihard smith above, these contracts involve the exchange of rights to promotion/sale of artists product for some kind of fee, percentage of sales etc. Now assuming negotiations had been concluded and Guest rihard had agreed to part with his hard earned $2700 and the contract was not fulfilled as per whatever was initially agreed we have two possible scenarios.

1. If Guest rihard lived in Australia and he had entered into a contract with some sort of musical promoter her would have some kind of legal comeback. Either directly from the promoter or indirectly from the company concerned. Of course if the promoters business was not registered then it becomes really messy and basically not worth the cost of legal fees for the musician to get his money back. In other words ripped off.

Oh did someone say in one of the posts above that there are musical promoters out there in cyberspace at this very moment who are using unregistered business names?

2. Given the same circumstances but with the artist living overseas, the outcome would be just a straight out ripoff with virtually no effective comeback.

Either way Guest R loses!

Now to my mind it also begs the question of why someone in say the US, the UK or Europe would be asking someone in Australia to promote their music internationally anyway? Thats not to say it may not be possible but then again the reasons why may be more obvious to others.

Finally, it is really worth highlighting for those who are less familiar with the Mudcat the fact that many, most if not virtually all contributors to the forum are musicians professional, or not, who take an active interest in music across a whole range of styles, forms and instrumentation. Many of these people also have direct experience of the business side of the music industry. They are not schmucks contrary to what some alleged promoters with unregistered business names might think.

Cheers

Andrez

PS: Oh by the way guess what I just found?

Pictures of our Norman. Just do a search on the page for a name of interest. There are four of em on that page and at least one elsewhere on the site. Not too sure about the reference to bananas but it doesnt sound very appealing!. At least we have some sense about who is talking to us.

http://www.barrytomesmediagroup.com/index.php?f=data_business&a=4

So he has been slumming around the fringes of some music scene after all.

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: GUEST,Quokka
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 10:09 AM

Hmmm...For someone who wants this thread shut down, Stormin' Norman's sure got a lot to say...

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: Max
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 09:57 AM

Another Message from the AMMA:


On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 3:12 AM, An'R artist repertoire & international licensing wrote:


Hello Max,
What you are saying here is... you will "hoist up your flagpole" whatever you like OK?
With blatant disregard for any research, sources or for that matter soul searching.
So to start... With Utmost Sincerety, "sincerity" please!
(yikes!!!! "prepair"!!!! Means first two maybe? no you mean "prepare"... Oh what? wait on "Betwean"!!! Maybe "between" must be US spelling Norman!!)
We don't refer to them as "perspective clientelle" either... Maybe "Clientele"
Well you are going to hoist whatever you like so spelling isn't really an issue!

It's not against the law, not to have a web site but then it's not as if we don't.
We do also have some affiliation so as to where you look for it, is up to yourself.
We are not going to spoon-feed anyone.

There is a saying "you should never defecate where you eat"
You should give this some serious consideration Max.
In Laymen's terms... You cannot have a business relationship with people you shit on!
And there I will have to temper my language because if you do put this up on your blogg site an impressionable child "may" read it...

Without issue, put this up! And I did say "without issue"
What you edit out will say a lot about you Max.

As to your "legal team" comment:

We are not preparing any "legal team" never said we were... We made a "polite" request, followed by an offer.
Apart from any litigation we may incur from your blatant disregard for your own privacy policy (see your own words below. If they are indeed! Have you read it?).
Like most "bloggers" you don't read or see what is really being said to you...
You are too busy having a little "power trip"!

One other thing - Please be careful not to post information you want to keep private. The Mudcat is part of the Internet, and there are nasty people out there who study every word you post. There's no need to be paranoid about the nasty guys - but it is wise to be prudent. Don't post your date of birth, your address or phone number, or other personal information. If you need to convey that information, send it by e-mail or personal message - but only to people you trust. The Protecting Your Privacy section of this FAQ gives pointers on privacy. By the way, Mudcat will not release your membership information or IP address to outside parties or to members.

And as for 75,000 bloggers involved with mudcat...
From what I've read, seen and heard they would appear to be a bunch of losers at their place of work with too much time on their hands!
Now what are the words of that song...

Fat drunk and stupid
Got nothing to say
Fat drunk and stupid
Gonna say it anyway

There is a fabulous business model for the music industry at the moment.
A lot of people will deny it exists for purely political reasons... but it does!
One which saves us all a lot of time!

(1) There are those artists who's work speaks for itself.
They produce excellent product, concepts, songs and imagery. All well thought-out, sounding excellent, looking excellent!
They have put their pennies where their mouth is!
Not necessarily intentionally, but that is how these true artists operate.
Over time they sink all their efforts, experience and pennies into making their point... "art"
These artists often go to the industry "cap in hand" asking for "a deal" of some description (they don't know themselves!).
They usually get one as well...
Along the way they may also get a slagging but they are set in their ways, this is all they know, they can only be better.
This is real product that can sell via logistics in a traditional method and make money (lets face it, without "money" being involved, it can't be called business can it?)
You can more often than not, walk into a store and buy this type of artist's CD!!
It has infrastructure! Other people/companies involved who need to make the process cover costs so they can do more... for more!
Lets face it, finances/diplomacy/and even time keeping are not necessarily the hall marks of a great artist... Never were!
Anyway, this is still called "Music Business".

(2) then there is what we all call "web music"...
If you can't sell your music, no one is interested, can't get a traditional reviewer to even review it... ( I could add to this "never left the bedroom, no money, no prospects, highly self opinionated, always right, blogger..." But I wont!)
Then you can write your own spin on the great WWW!!!! steer skeptics to it, maybe even scam a bob or two... maybe!
When your chickens do come home to roost! They don't lay eggs... it's just a charade.
In short...
Can't give the stuff away!
This is "web music"!

With the Business model that now exists, we don't have to deal with "web music", "want to be's" or WWB's anymore (WebWannaBes)!
These people are tight, confused, insular and self obsessed!
And like bloggers they are nameless and faceless for a good reason... "fear" all sorts of "fear"!
All they will do is direct you to a web link somewhere for what is purportedly their music and "fortunately" we don't have to go there and we don't! (that's no loss I hear you say... Wow! surprise me with your brilliance WWB's)

Artists that post real product, we (along with many others) may well get interested in! They have put their money where their mouth is to start!
Through taking that giant step and buying an international stamp, they have opened up a world of possibilities... They can get out there and kick some goals!
Everyone in business respects that!
And (in the words of Ali G) "respect man" it's "your" starting point for success!

End of story!

Blogg away but don't expect any favours.


Kindest Regards
Norman McCourt (director AMMA, Madra Beag Music and Editor An'R-artist repertoire and international licensing)

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: GUEST,Quokka
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 08:47 AM

Just a point - any publicity is good publicity, surely- if you are legit, this would be a perfect forum to try and increase your profile globally. Why would you try to shut down discussion if your business is in promotion, especially if you have solicited business from particular musicians. Anyone is entitled to check whether 'cold-callers' are legitimate, no? Otherwise we just have to assume you have something to hide... just saying...
Cheers
Quokka

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: Andrez
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 07:22 AM

Its a bit hard to let this go then isnt it? OK lets clarify a few things for those overseas.

1 Info from ASIC can be readily obtained by any interested party either free or for the price of a search fee.
2. The listing Norman complains about as being confidential company information, notes no, repeat NO confidential identifying company information.

The operative lines in the ASIC info first posted above are:

Registration Date: Unknown;
Status: Business names-removed;
Principle place of business: not available.

There is nothing confidential about that information.

The ASIC extract appears to be little more than details or the registration of a business name, whose current status is unclear to say the least.

It is also telling that Sandra in Sydney noted: I can't find any trace of them under their initials, full name or registered number on the Victorian Fair Trading site.

To confirm this, I did a free search at the Website of Consumer Affairs Victoria at this link: http://online.justice.vic.gov.au/CA256B7D001E2A6C/page/Victorian+Names+Register-

Type in the Company name of your choice!

The keys results are as follows:

Organisation Name
AUSTRALIAN MUSIC MARKETING ABROAD

Organisation Number

B1468120R
        
Date Registered

13/10/1999

Date Deregistered

13/10/2002

Renewal Date

-

It is necessary to again emphasise that this is PUBLIC Information.

The alleged registered street address is equally PUBLIC as it is detailed on a website associated with the Australian Arts Council. So all talk about librarians facing federal charges may be considered to be.... in the classical sense of the term..... BOLLOCKS!

Interestingly another search, this time via ASIC, the Australian Securities and Investments Commission on the business name: Madra Beag Music resulted in the following entry at this link:
http://www.search.asic.gov.au/cgi-bin/gns030c?state_number=1285941X&juris=3&hdte

Extracted from ASIC's database at AEST 20:39:14 on 23/07/2008
Name
MADRA BEAG MUSIC
Registered state/no.
VIC 1285941X
Type
Business Names
Registration Date
Unknown
Next Review Date
Unknown
Status
Business Names - Removed
Principal Place of Business
not available
Jurisdiction
Office of Fair Trading & Business Affairs,Victoria

So if you get the drift, methinks Uncle Norman protesteth too much.

Now heres my hypothesis, purely speculative of course! There are people around who for reasons of their own are building a business profile on the Internet. Its really easy to do that and on the basis of Pr and spammin... errrrrrr.....marketing, try to make a living from both hardworking artists (5%) of all persuasions as well as gullible wannabes (95%).

Now for all we know Mr McC and the elusive Imogen S may be perfectly legit. True enough! Unfortunately, writing letters of complaint to Mudcat central and claiming to be a principal of two companies whose business names are unregistered in Australia, significantly weakens the case put forward for the prosecution m'lud!

More to the point, although this is purely speculation as well, what happens is that this thread does come up on searches and may provide an alternative point of view regarding services that may or may not be provided by any parties who have a vested interest in presenting a particular online persona, as part of their own business activities.

By placing some information out there in public forums, artists of all persuasions can draw their own conclusions on the basis of factual information. What they decide to do on the basis of that information is up to them. Personally though, I'd be worried and I'd certainly like to hear any justification or arguments to the contrary that might be made available in this public forum.

So good on you Max and here's one for free speech and choice.

Cheers,

Andrez

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: Max
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 10:52 AM

mudcat.org has been contacted by the AMMA with a "request" to remove this thread. The correspondence is as follows:

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Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 17:57:14 +1000
Subject: PLEASE READ AND RESPOND TO THIS EMAIL in regard to MUDCAT CAFÉ Blogsite 21/07/08
From: xxxxxx

Hello Dick,
I've just had my attention drawn to your blog site in regard to blogs posted by people who we don't know.
They have also posted via a librarian confidential company information and also a registered street address as that of our company AMMA.
This runs in the face of business confidentiality regulations and the privacy of Government information and the public posting there of, in this territory and in fact many territories.
This same (very similar) matter occurred last year within the blog site of a relatively major on line CD site.
They were in fact instructed to take it all down and they did so with no ill-will which we respect!

I would have to ask you to do the same I'm afraid.

If there were any truths within these blogs I wouldn't bother but like all blogs they are just negativity gone rampantly insane to the point where they start quoting other companies with similar names in fact!
And then start "stalking" unknowns premises!!! Certainly not ours!
Now apparently there have been people outside the "said premises" taking pictures!!! Please read your site!

Bizarre indeed but these are the times we live in...

Here is the address for the blogs I refer to:

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=112553&messages=26

They have drawn into the equation Australian Music Online also who are miffed as well as the address they have disclosed as AMMA (who has contacted me).
The Librarian who has gone to the data base to exume this information and put it up on your page "could, should" face federal charges or at the very least a sacking!
But I am presuming you will just pull it down. Evidence gone! Everyone can get on with their jobs!

We don't print and publish information about you and your company Dick so in the interests fair competition, privacy and more importantly "accuracy" (not to mention organising "stalkers"),
we would expect you and your company to do no less.

We do appreciate:
What individuals, unknown to yourselves publish on your web site can be difficult to control.
But like print media, which we are involved with, we cannot allow "anyone" to just say "anything" and then go print it and distribute it to our subscribers.
We end up in all manner of time wasting actions!
We appreciate that you have final say in anything which is posted on the mudcat web site and accordingly would limit it's use to any undesirable or subversive elements.

Please advice by return email


Kindest Regards
Norman McCourt (director AMMA, Madra Beag Music and Editor An'R-artist repertoire and international licensing)

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Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 12:16:48 +1000
Subject: Re: Complaint about Mudcat thread on Australian firm

From: xxxxxxx


Well, I can't see anything wrong with the thread. I suppose we could delete the address information. Maybe that's confidential information in Australia - but it sure wouldn't be in the U.S. I suppose what we could do is reply to them and ask specifically what information they want requested, and why. From this e-mail, it's pretty hard to figure out what they want.
I think the call is up to you, Max.

-Joe-

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Hello Joe & Max,

Since yesterday we have had a word around and would like the entire content removed "post haste".

These bloggers are not any of our clients so know little or nothing about how we have operated for the last 30 odd years or indeed who we are and much less where we are!
Bloggers only post negative uninformed, misguided misinformation from what we have seen over the years.
Our clients never post bloggs they are too busy doing what they do. They also never reply to bloggs they are not interested. So in that regard it is a one way street of negativity.
Why anyone could be bothered hosting one would seem pointless and akin to being maybe what we once called a "busybody"

As with the online CD aggregators blogg site case recently.
We could have replied to every blogger with an answer but to be quite frank we don't have the time.
As a result of one short note from us and within 24 hours, this blogg site was all removed and nothing has since gone back up.
We are now in a good relation with said organisation. We have nothing but kind words to say about them which is good for business... "all around".

In the case of the librarian who has exposed someones address and our legal entity... I would envite her to post her home address and place of work for everyone to see.
At least that way we can contact the library and begin some form of recompense.

I have to ask you:
Would you like us to publish misleading, uninformed incorrect information about your company in our print publications?
To be honest I don't think we could be bothered but...
Do you have time to sit around all day for the next 12 months conducting this conversation?
I don't think so... Neither do we!
Does your business have an identity to maintain?
And if so what is it?
So do we!

I will ask you kindly once more Joe to pull down that entire page in the interests of fair play, decency and quite possibly your legal obligations.
No Threat! Just a request in good faith!


Kindest Regards
Norman McCourt (director AMMA, Madra Beag Music and Editor An'R-artist repertoire and international licensing)

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dateTue, Jul 22, 2008 at 3:12 AM
subjectRe: Complaint about Mudcat thread on Australian firm


Hello, Mr. McCourt-
I read the thread thoroughly a second time, and found it to be completely innocuous. The people who post at Mudcat are fairly representative of the worldwide English-speaking folk music community. The person who started the thread had received a solicitation from AMMA, and rightly wondered whether the company was legitimate. Several people checked up on the company, and provided the information they found from telephone directories and government public records. That information, by the way, is far less detailed than the public record information available on every company doing business in the United States.

If there is incorrect information in the thread, feel free to post to the thread and explain your company's story and correct the wrong information. If there is information in the thread that is truly private, please tell me specifically what it is and why it should be kept private. As far as I can see, everything posted in the thread is totally innocuous, taken from public records, and helpful to the musicians in the Australian folk music community.

In case you lost it, here's the URL of the thread: http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=112553

So, my decision is to leave the thread alone. If nobody posts to it for 24 hours, the thread will disappear from our Forum Menu - although it may show up in a Google search. If you would like to pursue this matter further, please contact Max Spiegel, the owner of the Mudcat Cafe.

Sincerely,

-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator, The Mudcat Cafe-

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Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 12:16:48 +1000
Subject: Re: Complaint about Mudcat thread on Australian firm
From: xxxxxx

Hello Joe & Max,
As you are the gatekeeper of the moral high ground here
I think you need to read that site through again!
and if that is your "final" decision!
I have to appease people here to make sure I'm not in the firing line of litigation.
How much do you want to take it down?
A simple business consideration!
It is our business and it is your business

Kindest Regards
Norman McCourt (director AMMA, Madra Beag Music and Editor An'R-artist repertoire and international licensing)

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from: Max Spiegel
dateTue, Jul 22, 2008 at 9:22 AM
subjectRe: Complaint about Mudcat thread on Australian firm


Mr. McCourt,

As publisher of mudcat.org, I have been monitoring this correspondence and reviewed the thread rather thoroughly. I have determined that the discussion on our forum is precisely why our forum exists. It is there for musicians to discuss their experiences, successes and failures while trying to make a very difficult living in traditional music. Our users and staff go to great effort to elucidate meanings, methods, options and opportunities. In short, I am not removing the thread.

As you prepair your legal team and dig your bunker, there is one more thing you should know. I intend to publish this correspondence betwean you and our staff and I, to that thread of discussion. I feel that it supplies additional details that our site and our users strive to supply to address the question that began this topic in the first place.

Details are hard to come by when researching traditional music and oral histories, so you have to take what you can get and let discussion volley them about to see what sticks. We have no facts, just memories, stories and experiences, with which we do our work.

The fact that your orginization does not have a Web site, any significant results with Google searches nor provide any significant information to your prospective clientelle, our forum is serving it's purpose here, and I am serving mine.

Feel free to participate in our open and uncensored forum. Seeing as how you seek to contact musicians as a part of your business, there are about 75,000 of us active here, many of which actually want to market their music globally. Seems like the perfect place for you to say anything you want without fear of being edited or deleted.

With Utmost Sincerety,

Max Spiegel
Publisher
www.mudcat.org

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 07:33 AM

Andrez, I hand my deerstalker cap to you!

sandra

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: Andrez
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 05:44 AM

The UK site looks like a variation on a theme and the AMMA listing is much the same as on the Aust Music Online site. As an artist, I wouldnt be spending my money with any of their offers any more than with AMMA.

What I find interesting is that the AMO site is affiliated with the Australian Council for the Arts which is a legitimate organisation. I'm going to track down a few contacts and see if I can find out who I can call directly in the Aust Council about the AMO site and what AMMA seems to be up to.

Cheers,

Andrez

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 02:49 AM

my friend sent 3 links - 2 I've seen, so here's the other link-

banditnewsletter (this newsletter has lotsa' very interesting articles)

sandra

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: JHW
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 05:17 PM

Well if AMMA claimed they didn't need a web presence then thanks to all they've got one now!

John Wilson

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: GUEST,rihard smith
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 01:05 AM

i got a letter of offer from them after sending them my cd and they asked for 2700 dollars to get me promoted in australia and uk. they sent a very nice magazine and about six cds. i though this was crap so i wrote back and said if you feel this strongly about my music and that you can get it sold ill offer you no cash up front and a 5% earning of any contract signed by one of your clients. they wrote back talking nonscence about how 5% is nothing and they need cash good try immogene smythe

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: JHW
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 03:24 PM

Sandra, The text re AMMA from your Chinchilla link is what was in the original spam trawl.
John

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 07:42 AM

now if you can get a folk club going, that would be the best reward possible for all your hard work.

many thankyous

sandra

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: Andrez
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 06:24 AM

Having done a few more searches on Imogen S. and drawing a solid blank like everyone else, I would say as if it isnt fairly obvious already, that the original AMMA mail is spam from persons unknown and that it should be left at that and oops.............. I just noticed that the website I spotted is the same one cited near the start of the thread by Sandra of Sydney. My posts and links above just looked in a different section of the same website. Sorry about that but maybe they clarify what happened to the organisation.

I got the chance to try out that pub I mentioned yesterday. A nice place to sit and the beer is good. Nice place for a folk club........hmmmmmmmmmmm!

Cheers,

Andrez

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: Andrez
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 06:05 AM

Ok I have a few things to report. Yes I finally found the right street address for AMMA. No 52 Webb st. is part of what looks like a reasonably upmarket Townhouse complex. It is effectively a 2 story unit with a security gate and intercomm system for access along with an electronic rollup garage door right next to the gate. There is what looks like a security camera above the front gate so I am probably on their system as I photographed from across the street and then walked over to look more closely at the gate and entrance.

There is no signage whatsoever to suggest that a business of any sort operates there. Whilst I can understand discretion, a small plaque or some-such would be appropriate for a legit mainstream marketing/ promotional operation. If anyone wants to look at the pix, I took 4 of house and street. PM me with an email address and I'll forward them.

Apart from that I did a search and found an AMMA website of sorts at this link:

http://www.amo.org.au/label.asp?id=21

If you click on the About us link on the Menu bar or directly on the link below

http://www.amo.org.au/about.asp

you get the following blurb:

"'Australian Music Online' (AMO) is a web-based initiative that aimed to advance the marketing and promotion of new Australian contemporary music, across a diverse range of genres, both nationally and internationally. The AMO project ran from March 2003 - April 2007; the site, however, remains archived live on the internet.

In 1998, the Federal Government announced that it would allocate funding to support music industry development and assist in addressing issues relevant to the repeal of the Copyright Act provisions relating to the parallel importation of sound recordings.

One of the funding commitments made by the Australia Council within that contemporary music package was funding the development and implementation of a strategy for the online promotion and marketing of Australian music.

The development and maintenance of the AMO web resource was an important part of that contemporary music package.

The AMO web resource contains an extensive amount of content and data about new Australian music. This content is created by AMO as well as aggregated from partner sites featuring Australian music content.

AMO also syndicated relevant sets of this content to an extensive array of partner websites (eg: MusicNSW, WAM, Triple J, the Fuse Festival etc). This syndication enabled many high/low profile and general/niche websites to offer a more complete service to their new/existing user bases by offering a 'richer' and more thorough catalogue of online information about Australian music.

The site has been developed using a custom-built XML-based content management system. All content is labelled, indexed and credited to its original sources.

Unfortunately, AMO's funding came to and end in April 2007. Despite this, the website - and its partner jukeboxes - remain live on the 'net; staffing of the site, however, has ended for the time being. No further updates to AMO will be made at this stage."

If you click on the Newsletters link on the menu bar or on the link below:

http://www.amo.org.au/newsletter.asp

You get the following info: "Thanks for checking out AMO! Unfortunately, AMO is no longer staffed, so our newsletter is now inactive"

If you look further around the site, It does seem though that they did have involvement with a lot of Indi music labels and organisations

So basically you can draw the obvious conclusions about where AMMA is at today.

The interesting thing now is what is Imogen Smythe up to in terms of the spam mails going out. I'll do a little more detective work of my own.

Anyway hope that helps a little.

Cheers,

Andrez

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 10:16 AM

I've just done a Google search on "Imogen Smythe" & found 2 references to this thread!, several to an actress who appeared in "The man from Uncle" & one mentioning AMMA on a blog 'Below the Surface'from Chinchilla Music

sandra

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: Andrez
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 07:21 AM

Currently an appropriate term of endearment for our meteorologically challenged Northern cousins escapes me, but to set the record straight Mt Buller in Victoria had around 50cm of snow by the end of last week :-)

Now to business, I need to confess that I entrusted the relevant address to my poor 60's addled brain and went to the address implanted into said brain. That address was 55 Webb St Fitzroy instead of the correct one being 52 Webb St and on the opposite side of the road! I even took a photo of No 55 as proof. :-(

What a $%$%$^%$#........... feel free to choose an appropriate adjective or other action. Ouch! Not so hard!!! :-((((

Anyway since I've gone that far, I'll have to do the after work detour again tomorrow and this time look at the right bloody address.#@#$@$%#$#

On the brighter side of things though I did find a really nice looking pub a little further down Webb St that looks like it could warrant further detailed investigation.

Cheers,

Andrez

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: GUEST,Acousticangelo
Date: 16 Jul 08 - 05:11 AM

Hi folks,
i packed a cd, wrote the adress on the envelope, to send it to AMMA, when a little doubt came.
Found this forum from google...
Finally, reading all these comments, (my english vocabulary is poor),
I've lost an envelope.

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: GUEST,Dick in Amsterdam
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 01:40 PM

Kind of weird, but interesting enough to search for them on the internet and found this forum. If they don't have a website, they sure know how to find their emails to spam.
Come on Andrez, make your snapshot!

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: quokka
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 09:52 AM

"been in the business of international music and publishing for twenty years" and don't have a website?? get real - that makes no sense AT ALL! What DO they use to communicate with everyone on the net - Morse code?

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 09:06 AM

has your daughter been falling down (snow-free) mountains?

sandra

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: Andrez
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 07:06 AM

HI guys, just checking in to say sorry I wasnt able to do the check yesterday but will definitely do so tomoorw on the way home from work and will report as promised. I've had a daughter return home from ski camp with 20 stitches in her leg. It sort of changes the priorities.Having said that I will definitely do the drive past tomorrow to check things out and will report in the evening. If theres anything to see I'll take a snapshot.

Cheers,

Andrez

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 13 Jul 08 - 09:11 PM

weird to say they don't need a website. As an retired librarian I know EVERYONE (especially younger folks) thinks if it's not on the web it doesn't exist!!

They don't appear to have an Australian Business Number (most organisations do - blurb from ABN site "ABN Lookup provides access to the publicly available information provided by businesses when they register for an Australian Business Number"), but they are mentioned on the ASIC Index of corporate and business names (Aust. Securities & Investment Commission website - Govt website) ps. Businesses can legitimately have several names & I only know AMMA


Extracted from ASIC's database at AEST 10:37:51 on 14/07/2008
Name         AUSTRALIAN MUSIC MARKETING ABROAD
Registered state/no.         
VIC B1468120R
Type         Business Names
Registration Date         Unknown
Next Review Date         Unknown
Status         Business Names - Removed
Principal Place of Business         not available
Jurisdiction         Office of Fair Trading & Business Affairs,Victoria

I can't find any trace of them under their initials, full name or registered number on the Victorian Fair Trading site.

I'm not expert on super-advanced web-searching so I've emailed my research librarian colleague to see if he can find more info.

sandra (also eagerly awaiting Andrez's visit)

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: JHW
Date: 13 Jul 08 - 04:23 PM

I mailed back Imogen at AMMA and copy two of her reply paragraphs below. I'm still not convinced; I don't believe anyone these days claiming not to need a website. I await the doorstep research by Andrez!
John.

"We are a traditional nut and bolts music bizz organisation.
We don't sell CD's to the general public as such, we only license to labels and publishers etc who use their infrastructure to market product in their own territories. Be it the UK, Europe, North America, Asia, Brazil whatever.
Being such we don't really need a website.
We advertise in the international print media all over the world in fact. Which is very expensive but gets long term results.
Having said that we do have a large presence and many international music trade websites such as MIDEM. However you will need an industry logon to gain access to these sights.

AMMA has been in the business of international music publishing and licensing for over 20 years and is one of the most visible companies carrying on the business of licensing and publishing on the international music trade circuit. Our activities take us all over the world and we have a presence on every continent.
Artists who are contacted by AMMA often ask how we found them.
Our Melbourne office is given artist/writer/label contact info from all over the world by song writing associations, musician unions, label associations, manager forums and other collectives.
It is our business to find good artists, good writers and good catalogue for further business."

Subject: RE: Anyone heard of AMMA (Australia)
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 13 Jul 08 - 08:11 AM

my other friend hadn't heard of them either, so if you have nuffin' better to do on your way home from work ...

sandra

why is Google offering links to free on-line translating & English-German translating?