Preservation or Innovation?

Subject: Preservation or Innovation?
From: mattkeen
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 03:31 PM

I am starting this thread on behalf of Mike Wilson who posted it on another Forum



This is the title of an article I'm going to write, and I want to gather as much opinion on the subject as possible!

I'd really like to hear from a broad range of people connected to the world of folk and traditional music -- avid folk fans, folk club organisers, folk gig and festival promoters, musicians... in fact, anybody with an opinion they'd like to express!

What role do preservation and innovation play in upholding our tradition?

Does one detract from the other, or are they mutually beneficial?

What tensions might exist between the proponents of preservation and innovation?

How far can innovation go before it no longer remains true to the tradition, or to what extent might preservation stifle innovation?

That's just a few questions to get you thinking, but feel free to take any angle that you feel is fitting!

I'd be really grateful if anybody would re-post this in their blog or on any folk-related internet forums to which you may belong, as I'd like to get as broad a range of responses as possible before I start to knit it all together!

I can be contacted by e-mail at mike @ folking . com (without the spaces!)

Thank you for reading!


Music Blog -- http://mikewilsonmusicblog.blogspot.com/

MySpace -- http://www.myspace.com/mpwilson

Subject: RE: Preservation or Innovation?
From: MMario
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 03:38 PM

The first question I would have is *WHICH* tradition - and how do you define it? what boundaries do you put on it? There are so many different facets to consider.

As just one example - I've seen many many references to various songs which state that the songs were traditionally sung without musical accompianment - but you rarely ever hear "traiditonal" music that way these days - live or recorded.

Subject: RE: Preservation or Innovation?
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 03:41 PM

*The first question I would have is *WHICH* tradition*

Perhaps viewing Mike Wilson's blog and Myspace space might be instructive....

Subject: RE: Preservation or Innovation?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 03:45 PM

Matt,
Is this Mike Wilson of 'The Wilsons' or some other?

Subject: RE: Preservation or Innovation?
From: mattkeen
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 03:59 PM

I don't know Steve

Have a look at his myspace

He writes for Living Tradition and others, and that seems o be Mikes primary job

Subject: RE: Preservation or Innovation?
From: GUEST,In My Humble Opinion
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 04:01 PM

You could also e-mail Damien Barber and ask him, as Damien does perform with Mike Wilson, of The Wilsons, on a regular basis

Subject: RE: Preservation or Innovation?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 04:22 PM

That's not Mike Wilson out of the Wilsons.

Subject: RE: Preservation or Innovation?
From: Amos
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 04:22 PM

How could they detract from each other. Even "Greensleeves" was once an innovation.

They each have their own problems and important values.

For a performer, the preservation impulse presents the problem of making an old context come to life again, with listeners who may not be sensitized to the full context of the language of an earlier period.

The innovation impulse requires its own solution to bridge the blank chasm of novelty and acheive a positive reception.

Innovation demonstrates that the ancient and deep values of song are still alive, and the human heart has not yet been suffocated. Preservation honors the heartbreak or struggle or exaltation that produced ancient song, and demonstrates that the deepest of human values are constant in any weather, any era.

A

Subject: RE: Preservation or Innovation?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 04:38 PM

Like your explanations, Amos. I'll certainly buy that.

Subject: RE: Preservation or Innovation?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 04:39 PM

*That's not Mike Wilson out of the Wilsons.*
Well I guess that settles that then...next!

Subject: RE: Preservation or Innovation?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 04:56 PM

One problem I can foresee in these questions is the referral to 'the tradition'/ 'our tradition'. What is actually implied here? I suspect that what Mike may be thinking of is actually a whole collection of separate traditions. Either way traditions evolve, that is part of their nature, or they become moribund and die. Preservation at various stages in the evolution allows us to study how the evolution progresses. It also enables revival if the tradition has become moribund. If innovation is stifled in any way the tradition enters the museum stage, it's contents put in glass cases not to be touched.

Subject: RE: Preservation or Innovation?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 05:01 PM

*I suspect that what Mike may be thinking of is actually a whole collection of separate traditions.*

Send him a message via his myspace messenger, I'm sure he'd be more than pleased to clear things up for you.

Subject: RE: Preservation or Innovation?
From: mattkeen
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 05:05 PM

I have let him know that this thread has started

Hopefully he will drop in

Subject: RE: Preservation or Innovation?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 05:06 PM

Surely there are many unchanging but unlost traditions.

Subject: RE: Preservation or Innovation?
From: michaelr
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 05:07 PM

"Folk music is not a pickle. It doesn't need to be preserved."

Wish I knew who said that...

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Preservation or Innovation?
From: glueman
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 05:15 PM

Like eggs on a chip shop counter, it's nice to know they're there but to taste one you have to be very, very drunk.

Subject: RE: Preservation or Innovation?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 05:24 PM

it is Mike Wilson,who sings with the Wilson Family.
but where is the relevance,would it matter if it wasnt that Mike Wilson,but Mike Wilson who lives in Ballydehob and plays the Uileean pipes.
or Mike Wilson who was the champion tiddley winks player,and who I once bowled for a duck at creekeet.

Subject: RE: Preservation or Innovation?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 05:28 PM

Richard,
The CHANGING of the Guard? Perfect example of a museum piece! IMHO

Subject: RE: Preservation or Innovation?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 05:30 PM

Ruth/Dick, you now have me confused. Enter Mike stage left, to tell us more..............

Subject: RE: Preservation or Innovation?
From: Tootler
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 05:38 PM

Capt. Birdseye wrote
"it is Mike Wilson,who sings with the Wilson Family.
but where is the relevance,would it matter if it wasnt that Mike Wilson,but Mike Wilson who lives in Ballydehob and plays the Uileean pipes.
or Mike Wilson who was the champion tiddley winks player,and who I once bowled for a duck at creekeet."

It probably doesn't matter, but people still like to know who the particular Mike Wilson is.

And... Blue clickies for the links near the start of the thread.

MySpace -- http://www.myspace.com/mpwilson

Music Blog -- http://mikewilsonmusicblog.blogspot.com/

Subject: RE: Preservation or Innovation?
From: In My Humble Opinion
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 05:40 PM

I wonder how many people have actually gone through the links and had a look at these other forums of communication by the said Mike Wilson?

Subject: RE: Preservation or Innovation?
From: Tootler
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 05:41 PM

Sorry! Cocked the blue clickies up.

Try again.

MySpace -- http://www.myspace.com/mpwilson

Music Blog -- http://mikewilsonmusicblog.blogspot.com/

Subject: RE: Preservation or Innovation?
From: peregrina
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 05:57 PM

Preservation and Innovation are a useful contrasting pair, but a false dichotomy. Something more like Recording-rote-repetition-variation and degrees of variation makes a more useful continuum. Then when does variation become 'innovation'?

When Lord and Parry collected oral traditional songs in that place they went which has changed its name, their singers would tell them that one version of a tale was identical to another. The wax cylinders said something different. But for the singers, identical wasn't verbatim replication, but communication of the same essential ideas.

Subject: RE: Preservation or Innovation?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 02:43 AM

I've seen Mike Wilson playing with Damien Barber, and that doesn't look like the Mike Wilson I saw - not hairy enough :). But I could be wrong. I thought the Wilsons lived in the North East. This chap lives in North Wales. And his Myspace doesn't mention the Wilson Family, or performing, at all.

Just sayin'.

Subject: RE: Preservation or Innovation?
From: mattkeen
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 04:43 AM

Whatever tradition we are talking about, and Mr Wilson (not the former PM either)is probably talking about what we call English traditional music that has many inter weving threads from all over Britain and beyond - there is still a central issue about responding to the material and giving something of ones contemporary self to it, at the same time as not destroying the tradition.

I like John Lee Hookers analogy about blues, when he said something like this "Blues is a big old suit case that I found in the middle of the road. I picked it up and carried it up the road for quite a way. Then put it down again for somebody else to carry".

Subject: RE: Preservation or Innovation?
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 07:34 AM

it is Mike Wilson of the Wilson family,I was in contact with the same gentleman about reviewing my latest cd.
The Irish tradition is of interest,since the formation of Comhaltas in 1951,Irish traditional music has altered recognisably.
This is partly as a result of Comhaltas competitions,with their emphasis on marking for ornamentation.
ironically they started out with the intention of preserving the music,but have produced a homogeonised comhaltas style,heavily influenced by Sligo style,that competitors know is more likely to win competitions.
next we must look at the influence of commercialisation,groups like Planxty have been responsible for bringing into the music,instruments like the bouzouki,and the Hurdy Gurdy.
.The English Tradition saw the introduction to the Folk Revival of the Bass Clarinet and Clarinet by Sue Miles,Pedar long,and later Peter Bond,Sue Harris brought the Oboe to prominence and wind and brass instruments have been introduced and used by Flowers and Frolics and others.

Subject: RE: Preservation or Innovation?
From: GUEST,Mike Wilson
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 04:27 PM

Hi folks... this is Mike Wilson here that posted this blog originally... I'm NOT Mike Wilson of The Wilsons from the North East... must check out my namesake one day!!

Well, this is the liveliest response/discussion I've had, and it's fascinating the different angles people are coming from!

I purposefully left the questions vague as I wanted to see what people felt it meant to them and didn't want to steer responses in any particular direction.

I didn't have in mind the tradition of any particular nation, just traditional music in general. The thing that prompted my curiosity, is that musicians/reviewers are always celebrating or slating both those that innovate and those that preserve... there are extremes of both, and then there's a whole load of music that hovers somewhere inbetween.

I've just read Peter Cox's great book about the Radio Ballads and found the bit about MacColl/Seeger and their Critics Club fascinating... there's also going to be an interesting article about Gaelic song in the forthcoming edition of LT in an interview with Margaret Stewart, who has very strong opinions about how her tradition is being treated... and she really does feel that it's HER tradition.

What I'm trying to get at is WHY? Why do people fall in to these two camps, why do people feel so strongly and can anybody put forward articulate arguments for both. I suppose it will only be worth writing about if I get extreme opinions that fall into both camps. Though despite the oft encountered musings around this subject people have so far seemed happy to sit on the fence somewhat!

Discuss!

Subject: RE: Preservation or Innovation?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 05:12 PM

Well, Mike, I don't fall into two camps, and I have a problem with the middle word of your title. I'd rather change it to 'and'.