What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 12:41 AM

The Last Poets refered in their release of an album & introduced a sound the group called "jazzpoetry", leaving behind the spare percussion of the previous albums in favor of a blending of jazz and funk instrumentation with poetry. (see my link above for more on the Last Poets). What they did way back when is pretty much & basicially the same art form that lives on today.

I was impresed with this "Rap" when it came out in the late 60's & early 70' being of a radical political persuasion myself, fitted well along side the hen counterculture's civil rights stance & the then opporsition to the Viet Nam War, but I never took it to be music then or now, I did write alot of poetry in those days & I wasn't a white middle class kid from the 'burbs'. I grew up in the inner city section of Boston called Roxbury, in an area know as Mission Hill. The only folkie area at the time was 'Fort Hill' (the next hill over). It was a racially mixed area, white, black & the 1st area for immargrant Latinos, what was in common was poverty. Though 'Rap" is the voice of poverty. It's a medium that those with a dislike & a distaste for how the system & life circumstances has treated the poor from the inner city it's not the same medium nor music that was used by those who were raised in the poverty of the rural areas, it's not even a musical form & when those who were some of the originators of this medium called it "jazzpoetry" they named it well.

Barry

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 07:52 PM

"Also, in your 04:24 you told olddude to take a hike. What gall since he started this thread! "

That is a lie. We are having a discussion, sorry if you can't keep up.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 07:51 PM

Or maybe you shouldn't listen to it--it has one of the seven words in it, and i know how you are about that. After all, just because we disagree with you, doesn't mean we don't care about you;-)

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 07:47 PM

We're here, because we are just as entitled to say what we think as you are, PDQ. And personally, I disagree with you. Simple as that.

As to the Old Dude's "right" to keep the thread on a particular point--if that were true, an awful lot of your own posts, over the years, violated the rights of people, but as we know, you had and have a right to say what ever is in your heart, no matter what anyone else happens to think about it.

The price you pay for that is, guess what? We all get to do it, too!

As to Sun Ra, I am surprised that you know enough about him to know what is fair to say about him, and what is not.   You should listen to this, if you don't think that Sun Ra and the Arkestra did rap. Sun Ra--Nuclear War

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: pdq
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 07:25 PM

You and M.Ted should start your own thread and tell everyone (at least those who care) all the fine nuance found in Rap. It is you two who are hijacking the thread, which will be obvious if you read the initial post.

Also, in your 04:24 you told olddude to take a hike. What gall since he started this thread!

Who died and left you in charge anyway, Ronbo?

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 06:59 PM

PDQ - I don't think anyone is telling Old Dude to change his point. He doesn't like the music and that is fine. I don't like it either.

It seems like you do not care to discuss the roots and the subject of this thread. Listen, if you don't want to learn - stay out of school.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: pdq
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 06:34 PM

Why don't some of you who want to glorify Rap start a new thread?

olddude has the right to keep this one one the point he wanted to make.

BTW, it sounds like we are going to be told that Rap has it's roots in Gregorian chants of other Church music. Garbage. Also, I don't think it is fair to claim Sun Ra's work was Rap when the man is not here to defend himself.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 06:25 PM

Word Up, for those who are interested, here are some YouTube links for your consideration.

"The Message" was one of the first "Rap" hits, around thirty years ago. "The Signifying Monkey" is an old and widely circulated folk recitation that has been documented and recorded in many forms and is always cited in discussions of the origins of Rap. "Shine and the Titanic" is old, though probably not older than 1912:-). "This Beach" is a more contemporary rap, done in the old style, by Oscar Brown, Jr. "I Apologize" is for all you folks that haven't figured out that a lot of Rap is ironic.

Oh, and "The Signifying Monkey" is probably best listened to in an "adults only" situation.

The Message
I Apologize
This Beach
The Signifying Monkey
Shine and the Titanic

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 04:24 PM

Olddude - what you describe seems to be an illegal level. People should know better, but they don't.   There is a difference between loud and illegal. Also, I don't think anyone said they like it. To each their own. Live and let live. Move on!

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Big Phil
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 03:57 PM

RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?

You must be joking.

Phil*

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: olddude
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 03:07 PM

MY POINT LEVELS are out of SPEC, 18 inch speakers and 400 watts that rattle the windows, and drowns out even the lawn mower - cops don't seem to bother unless they are next door to them , heck I sure hope some folky moves in next door to you guys and rigs out their car with a similar system sharing the coolness of Dylan. And if it is cool why share it with us un-cool better to keep the cool with the cool. Seems to me you are spending quite some time on this forum also hmmm we both should move on for sure. I got better things to do good luck to you and enjoy your music. Because no matter what music a person likes they listen to it because it brings them joy and if that is what you like that if great for you. Likewise what I like is great for me fair enough

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 02:50 PM

WEll, I mixed rap with shanties at the just finished Liverpool Shanty Festival, and nobody complained (that I know of).

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 02:23 PM

" "Why would rappers want to sully their art by associating it with folk music? " "

Do you honestly think anyone cares? Unlike folkies, rappers are not spending time on forums trying to figure out what they are.

Likewise, I doubt if a tomato worries if it is considered a fruit or a vegetable.


" Have the cops tell them "you are free to listen to that stuff anytime you want...just wear earphones". "
You may wish to check your local laws. The last time I heard, it was illegal to wear headphones when driving.

"no need to share the "Cool" with others that don't like it don't need to hear it "
As long as the levels are not out of spec with local laws, there is a freedom of speech issue involved with telling someone they cannot play music in their own car.   

Comeon, haven't you ever turned the volume up to 11 on certain recordings for the pure joy the sound brings? Ever try to listen to the Rolling Stones or Ramones on "soft"?   Doesn't cut it. I cringe when I see two guys with banjos playing together and I run in fear when a tone deaf geezer sticks his finger in his ear and sings with all the gusto of a cat being castrated, but I'm not going to make a fuss. Move on, life is too short!!!

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: olddude
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 01:58 PM

Fair enough, like I said why does anyone like anything or dislike anything, Personal taste. So please - no need to share the "Cool" with others that don't like it don't need to hear it ... headphones please when driving through town or at least, volume that you can enjoy and not the entire street

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: GUEST,Faecal Occult Blood
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 01:55 PM

Why would rappers want to sully their art by associating it with folk music? Whilst it's true what Spleen says, folk remains about as non-cool as it gets with no appeal beyond its own ageing middle-class white graduate demographic for whom the answer is still, alas, blowin' in the wind...

Faecal Occult Blood

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: pdq
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 01:11 PM

I'm with you all the way on this one, olddude.

Have the cops tell them "you are free to listen to that stuff anytime you want...just wear earphones".

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: olddude
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 01:00 PM

Well I starting this thread out aggressively due to my neighbors insistance that I listen to their bling bling, I shot her in the head music at all hours. So my apologies again for my opening comments. What I can take away from the thread is :

1) there are other forms of rap music that are not the violent form, and have social positive messages.

2) the commercial interests from a host of companies promote the "shock value version for commercial reasons"

3) Much like modern art most people have strong opinions. Like modern art, it is not going to disappear because some of us find much of it offensive.

4) My local police need to enforce the "noise" laws.

I will never like the music only because it doe not appeal to me. I relate it to modern art. I love art - all kinds of art from the great masters to the modern masters. Jackson Pollock presses my buttons but Dali's painting "baby eating rat" I despise even though I love most of his other works. Why? why does anyone like or dislike anything? Others believe the painting is one of his best for reasons that I don't understand. I believe Dali painted it purely for the "shock value", Likewise I feel many of the rap artists try to out shock one another for reason number two.

However paintings and other music that I do not like, I can easily avoid by not looking for them. However, with the ganster rap that I also dispise, I cannot escape from it. Hence my opening comments out of frustration.

It has been a very interesting discussion.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 12:13 PM

"anyone who goes to a Folk Music Festival and has to listen to a rapper between Irish folk bands and bluegrass is being abused."

Anyone who goes to a buffet and fills up on bread just wasted an opportunity. Likewise, you do not have to eat everything put in front of you.

Folk Festivals are the creative vision of an artistic director. If the director attempted to cover ever single tradition, they would create a confusing event that would struggleto convey the vision.

I don't think rap would fit in well at the major festivals here in the U.S., but that does not alter its classification.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 12:05 PM

"I will grant people the fact that Rap is a Folk Art, but so is graffiti.

What Rap is not is Folk Music, and anyone who goes to a Folk Music Festival and has to listen to a rapper between Irish folk bands and bluegrass is being abused.

As far as angry? Not really. That would get in the way of putting up a good fight.

This cultural genocide must be fought the same way we fight drugs, street gang violence, air polution or organized crime.

About the intent of this thread, read the initial post. Perhaps those who want an cerebral discussion or with to post their favoirite Rap are invited to start a new thread. "

Speaking of graffiti, first time I was in England, I saw some stunning graffiti outside of one of the rail stations, in Muswell, perhaps, but I don't know exactly where. Graffiti IS an artform, so what if much of it is rubbish? Ezra Pound has to be one of my least favourite poets, utterly miserable stuff, but it's still poetry. Rap is a form of music. Whether or not it's GOOD music, is an entirely different matter. I dislike most of it, personally, but it's still music.

Why isn't it folk music? It's created in the community, it's living, it's vibrant, people sing about their lives and environment, in fact, it's a lot more interactive than you'd normally get at a folk club. Would I rather people listened to something else, yes, but rap is a form of music.

Anyway, here are some folk songs which are very close in subject matter to rap songs.
Cold, Haily, Windy Night- guy tricks girl into sleeping with him, then dumps her and her parents find out, landing her in trouble.
Gentleman Soldier- similar, but worse, girl is knocked up.
Ramblin' Sailor- guy boasts about how he's going to sleep with every girl he can and then leave them.
Lament of the Limerick Rake- last words of someone whose life consisted of sex and drinking.
Greensleeves- guy is upset because a girl rejected him, despite all the expensive stuff he's bought her.
Many, many more.


Strictly speaking, there is no such thing as cultural genocide. Culture is not a genus. Sloppy, sensational phrases, eh?

Cerebral discussion? Oh, are you saying that anyone who wants to discuss things intelligently instead of just posting "RAP is crap" ought to find a new thread? Reread the first post, olddude said he didn't like rap, but he wondered if it was folk music.

Can't remember which poster was talking about how modern society is obsessed with glamourised violence, but there's nothing new in that. During the 1700s, highwaymen and pirates were adulated. People collected pictures of, read books and sang about highwaymen and their exploits. Thousands flocked to see them when they were apprehended. The biggest difference is that the confessional aspect, the criminal recounting his misdeeds and cautioning people not to repat them, is missing.

---

Anyway, here are some interesting links about meykhana, Azerbaijani folk music, which should provide food for thought.

http://www.azer.com/aiweb/categories/magazine/91_folder/91_articles/91_dayirman.html

http://meyxana.iatp.az/meyxana/history.htm (MP3s)

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Stu
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 11:36 AM

100 homies.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: synbyn
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 11:18 AM

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 10:37 AM

Sorry, but I find incest ballads relatively boring...

Should I get my coat now?

:D

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: olddude
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 08:33 AM

stigweard

"They might be angry and ready for a rumble, but the disillusioned youth of the 21st Century certainly aren't revolutionaries, but well-trained consumers."

Well done well said IMO ... I agree completely

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: GUEST,yahoo
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 07:26 AM

well according to me is not singing it's a poem set to music that's all, so how can it be new music when you have someone reding out a poem and then having a rhythm over the top of it.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: mattkeen
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 07:17 AM

Give me a good old incest ballad anytime

The glorification of incest - here in England by our saintly fore fathers!

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 07:02 AM

Can't stand this glorification of violence cultture. Still, it could be worse, they used to sing Robin Hood ballads.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: mattkeen
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 06:57 AM

Like all forms there are good and bad examples, those that are using the form cos it genuinely speaks to them and those that are trying to make a fast buck.

A lot of Rap is brutal and, at its best, genuinely reflects where its coming from.

I would make music like that if, for instance, I had to live next door to pdq.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Stu
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 04:23 AM

"But a society to embrace the gangster stuff and idolize it, I don't understand that thinking. To me the violence cannot be justified."

Western society is a culture saturated in violence and lack of respect for fellow human beings. Take a look at the TV and film output of the US and UK - a large part of this glorifies violence against the person and undermines the consequences of violence for the victim. We live in a culture that advocates torture, spends tens of millions piping endless scenes of violence into our homes, glorifies the use guns and knives and kills tens of thousands of innocents with impunity. This malaise goes deep into the rotten core of the modern western psyche.

From The Dark Knight to Rambo, The A Team to The Wire and the endless cop shows, all based around violence and it's casual acceptance as part of modern Western society. In this respect Rap is no different to any other music form created in the West, although violence seems to figure large in it's own cultural cliqué as a way of life.

Although I largely agree with Elijah's excellent post I think there is a fundamental difference between punk and rap and that's the influence of big business. Whereas punk and rap were/are essentially DIY music making at street level, their actual cultures are very different. Like many youth tribes, punk rallied against the establishment and wore clothes that were home-made, purchased for pence from jumble sales and charity shops and generally eschewed commercial influence on it's look (obviously this didn't last, and it wasn't long before big business got involved but there was never a major clothes industry based around punk, as individuality in dress was a core value to punks).

With rap however, though the look is based on the clothing produced by large multinationals such as Nike and Adidas - some suit in a boardroom in an posh office block is essentially dictating the look on the streets. The bling is ostentatious and expensive and the drinks of choice are Krystal, Krug and XO. This is not the level playing field the punks wanted to create by smashing the system, this is the system ensuring that many rap adherents are buying the labels and getting the latest gear.

They might be angry and ready for a rumble, but the disillusioned youth of the 21st Century certainly aren't revolutionaries, but well-trained consumers.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 01:52 AM

Punk, in its base form, became a cliché of itself, but then again, what is cliché but a cultural forest fire, clearing out the dead wood for the new growth
-Elijah Browning

Rlijan Browning, I agree with what you wrote. And I hope that even people who disagree with you can acknowledge how well written and thought provoking your 23 Jul 08 - 01:07 AM post is.

The excerpted sentence above is just one example of the high quality of your writing.

If Mudcat had a thread for "beautifully written comments", a fair judge would select this comment without any hesitation.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 01:32 AM

I said above that Rap (and punk) music, in many if not most cases, are agressive, violent, and threatening. On the other hand, if I were to say that rap and punk express the rage of certain groups, which is also true; then that would be a different thing.

Rage certainly is being expressed in these types of music - and there is a real value in that.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 01:30 AM

Curious to know, D18/J35, do you live near Dempster St?

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Elijah Browning
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 01:07 AM

There is no such thing as an effect without a cause. With every generational movement, there is the generation that preceded it ready to push back. And that push back is vital and necessary. There's nothing worse than showing up for a revolution without an opposing side. There was a time when those that loved Perry Como couldn't stand those long-haired guitar players singing on the street corner, polluting their city. I can not say whether or not rap is folk music as I am just smart enough to know I ain't smart enough to know what either truly is. I also will not say that I enjoy having Stan Rogers out performed by thumping base that permeates every car within a two-block radius. I personally do not enjoy rap or much that it stands for, but I can understand that it has a cause, an impetus. Whether that impetus is rational and valid or self-serving and delusional, I also can not say. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

Fact is, rallying against the effect has no effect on the cause. I remember a time when I could identify with punk, and as I grew older, so did this genre. As with rap, the source of the frustration and the anger were real. At the same time, youth, especially young men, and I was no exception, are easily addicted to the raw energy of anger. It is the last ditch effort before acceptance of our own mediocrity and insignificance in the "grand scheme." It also gives a high that is rather invigorating but like any drug can lead to a miserable come-down with a disasterous aftermath. But new paths were taken because of punk. The paths that the post-punk era took varied from commercially viable crap to deep and well-structured investigations into social issues and metaphysical concepts. Punk, in its base form, became a cliché of itself, but then again, what is cliché but a cultural forest fire, clearing out the dead wood for the new growth.

I do not understand rap as it is not my era, not my voice, not my basis for comparison. If the kid next door blasted his rap the same way I used to blast the Sex Pistols, I can not honestly say that I would not call the cops. But then that is what I am supposed to do. That is my role. To give them reason to crank it up louder and take the human experiment into directions I never imagined possible. Even if those directions are ones I would rather they did not take.

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 12:12 AM

Amen, Ron!

I absolutely agree with what you said about rap music in your 22 Jul 08 - 11:43 PM post.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 11:43 PM

Alright D18/j45 - you are obviously a troll looking to stir shit. You sign on as a guest and then make really assinine statements. I really doubt that you ever lived in "the city", more likely a suburb where you can hide from the riff raff you complain about - or you live in a small midwest "city" where a minority considered someone brom "back east". If you truly lived in a big city, I think your experience with rap would be different than what you portray.

Fine, if it will make you happy - I will defend rap because you obviously have a dim view of the world from your little tarpaper shack where you write your spew.

You complain about rap, and I bet you are just another "old folkie" who thinks nothing of singing the great traditional ballads - the ones full of sisters murdering sisters, incest, women being raped and treated like merchandise. Yeah, the good old murder ballads and songs of war and hatred for the enemy. Listen to some of the erotic ballads and bawdy ballads. Thank god folk music NEVER degraded women or promoted violence and only uses language that your mother would use kissing your fat little behind each night. Good for you D18/J45!!!!

As I read through these threads, I've never seen a bigger bunch of hypocrites and people talking out of their ass. Many of the posters on this thread can be found in other threads complaining about media hype for folk music or movies or whatever, yet you feel that you hear a single news story about the violence in rap and you are suddenly experts.   Nice moves!

Hey, there is no hiding the fact that gangsta rap is violent and degrading. It is nothing that I would want to listen to, and I'm glad my kids have better sense. Anyone with half a brain would question the media and find out for themselves if they were truly interested instead of firing off items they saw on Fox News with little additional information.

I'm really sorry that someone had a neighbor that was rude and stupid. Yet to sterotype all rap listeners that way is wrong. Since the individual who complained said they live in a rural area - should I sterotype him as sleeping on a couch on the front porch next to the washing machine as his wife/sister is off playing bingo? Perhaps the real problem is that the walls in the trailer park are too damn thin.

It's pretty damn obvious that most of us have very little idea about what rap music really is. I sure as hell do not, but I have heard enough to realize that there is more than what the media makes it out to be.

I will give D18/J45 some credit - the troll did hit on a key ingredient in it's last sentence.   The simple word "amateurs" best describes both folk singers and rappers. I bet you don't know that rapping was also a street corner competition in the early days, and the idea of rapping was that it was something that everyone could do. Very reminiscent of the early days of the folk revival with people sitting in parks and making their own music. When the record industry came around and saw that money could be made, the rap industry began - much like the folk revival took hold with the Weavers and Kingston Trio and then everybody and their cousin Buford.

There is nothing new under the sun, including bigotry and ignorance.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: GUEST,D18/J45
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 11:13 PM

"Obviously that is not the case.   Also, no one is defending the music either. I guess you have not figured out that you can discuss music and style without buying into it."

Ob, but it is the case, Ron. I was wrong. I have lived in the city 25 years, not 20. And unless you can truly agree that the so called form of music called rap is worthless to society and to music in general, don't tell me you aren't defending it. I've seen better tap dances than that from amateurs.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: olddude
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 09:37 PM

One last point, when I said I don't buy it or listen to it. I don't want to be force to listen to it either, as I would not force my neighbors to listen to non stop clancy brothers. However, I cannot expect that they would respect my views if to them the songs they embrace are degrading others and promoting violence. Why should they respect my rights if to them that is what they hope to become. Amazing, several young high school white kids and they call each other the N word and that is cool because that is the word used over and over by their rap hero very sad in my opinion.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: olddude
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 09:27 PM

What is scary to me is how any music rap or otherwise that needs to degrade or promote violence is so widely accepted. That is the part that I do not understand and I am not talking just Rap here but any art form that says it is ok to kill or degrade. Azizi pointed out to me that not all rap is gang violence. I took some time to listen. It is not my cup of coffee but then again I don't care much for Polka. But my biggest beef is with my neighbors blasting it until my windows shake because I would not do that to them with the clancy brothers (maybe I should). However back to my point, what does it say as a society that will embrace this in record sales?   I don't get it but I never will. I will defend the right of anyone to make it without question, I just won't listen or buy it. But a society to embrace the gangster stuff and idolize it, I don't understand that thinking. To me the violence cannot be justified

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 09:11 PM

Still, there's a point. Rap music, in many if not most cases, is agressive, violent, threatening music. If you're an observer and not a participant, it's frightening. Punk music is similar - and my son makes his living as a punk musician. The week of the Rodney King riots, he set his band up on the top floor of a parking garage in Sacramento, and drew an audience of 125 or so - plus several cars full of police in riot gear.

To fail to explore the violence of rap music, is to fail to fully explore the genre.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: pdq
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 02:45 PM

I will grant people the fact that Rap is a Folk Art, but so is graffiti.

What Rap is not is Folk Music, and anyone who goes to a Folk Music Festival and has to listen to a rapper between Irish folk bands and bluegrass is being abused.

As far as angry? Not really. That would get in the way of putting up a good fight.

This cultural genocide must be fought the same way we fight drugs, street gang violence, air polution or organized crime.

About the intent of this thread, read the initial post. Perhaps those who want an cerebral discussion or with to post their favoirite Rap are invited to start a new thread.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 02:30 PM

pdq: I do appreciate your anger if your life has been made a misery by loud rap music, that sort of thing is intolerable. But that has not got much to do with rap's historical connections with folk music, or whether it is now a folk art. We have seen many definitions proposed for the word "folk" on Mudcat, but I don't think anyone has ever suggested "quiet" as one of them.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 01:59 PM

Sorry, SB. Don't really like Ralph McTell that much. I can't help it, it's just a matter of personal taste. Doesn't mean I'm ill informed. You go ahead and enjoy though... different strokes and all that. Meanwhile I have no opinion on the "rap bad, Ralph good" school of thought...

PDQ: I thought this was a discussion about whether rap music and the folk process had any degree of interface. With respect, why not take your riddles and inferences to the BS section below and say what you really mean.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: synbyn
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 01:31 PM

spleen cringe- please read what i posted carefully.... seems to me you're saying re Ralph McTell that if you haven't heard of it it can't be any good... perhaps a wider and deeper appreciation of the past might temper your views, in the strict sense of the word- make them stronger because more worked-upon? as to Lucy Wan, i think there is a world of difference between commercial usage of old song (which is what the pros present) and the folk process. Again. please read what I actually wrote, carefully.

Almost by definition, someone who hears about 'peppers & tomatoes' by Ralph Mctell and doesn't bother to check it out can't really be called informed.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Stu
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 01:15 PM

"No Brit can understand why it came about nor discern it's intent."

You could say that about any art form. This then means any American can't understand any song written in any other country apart from America, and that's obviously complete crap (or let's hope so, because all those Yank folkies singing anything from outside the US must look really stupid).

Rap isn't just an American music form any more, even though it was originally. A rapper just headlined Glastonbury and although that created bit of controversy it does show the relevance of the music to millions in the UK.

You obviously don't like it (can't say I do), but don't assume you're the only one who can speak with authority on the subject.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 01:14 PM

"I have lived in a big city for over 20 years and I understand rap for what it is."

Obviously that is not the case.   Also, no one is defending the music either. I guess you have not figured out that you can discuss music and style without buying into it.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: pdq
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 01:13 PM

I was listening to a discussion on the radio by a fellow who thought he was a serious music student.

He said that Snoop Dog E Dog had put "mother fucker!" into a three minute rap 100 times.

This clown made it sound like it was equinvalent to Wilt Chaimberlain's 100 point game in basketball.

These people are clowns. Snoop Eats Dog Poop is a clown. We in the sane part of America laugh at them. This entire art form is a self-parody.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: GUEST,D18/J45
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 12:54 PM

I have lived in a big city for over 20 years and I understand rap for what it is.

Racist, women hating, violent. Complete shit.

To defend it as some kind of pseudo intellectual, "I love all kinds of music, la la la" is just so self serving.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: pdq
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 12:44 PM

Only people who have lived in a big American city in the last 20 years can truly understand Rap.

No Brit can understand why it came about nor discern it's intent.

Kinda like an American trying to understand Cricket.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: pdq
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 12:34 PM

Good dog.

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: Stu
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 12:16 PM

"To attempt such an intellectual discussion about something that is viceral sounds like the pervue (sic) of pointy-headed pseudo-intellectuals."

Woof! Woof! Woof!

Subject: RE: What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 11:52 AM

"
I hope you have to live next to a house full of Rap Culture goons where you can't get away. Enjoy "die Honkey Mutha Fukkuh!!!" blasted at you 'till 3:00 in the morning so you can't sleep. Enjoy. "

But rap isn't really the issue here, now is it. What would you think if your neighbour blasted out FIRE MARENGO, FIRE AWAY at 3 AM or if someone cruised the neighbourhood with huge basses on the stereo blaring out Borodin's Polovtsian Dances? Would you be ok with it if Charlotte Church was played so loud as too make it hurt to even uncover your ears?