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Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes

Azizi 19 Jul 08 - 07:19 AM
Azizi 19 Jul 08 - 07:26 AM
Azizi 19 Jul 08 - 07:36 AM
Azizi 19 Jul 08 - 08:03 AM
Azizi 19 Jul 08 - 08:27 AM
Azizi 19 Jul 08 - 08:30 AM
MaineDog 19 Jul 08 - 09:13 AM
Azizi 19 Jul 08 - 09:18 AM
Azizi 19 Jul 08 - 09:29 AM
Sandy Mc Lean 19 Jul 08 - 12:20 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 19 Jul 08 - 12:25 PM
Azizi 19 Jul 08 - 02:07 PM
Azizi 19 Jul 08 - 02:38 PM
MaineDog 19 Jul 08 - 06:50 PM
Azizi 19 Jul 08 - 07:05 PM
oldhippie 19 Jul 08 - 08:31 PM
Azizi 19 Jul 08 - 08:44 PM
SINSULL 19 Jul 08 - 09:17 PM
Neil D 20 Jul 08 - 02:28 AM
Jay777 20 Jul 08 - 03:26 AM
GUEST,wordfella 20 Jul 08 - 05:53 AM
Jay777 20 Jul 08 - 05:58 AM
Azizi 20 Jul 08 - 07:06 AM
MaineDog 20 Jul 08 - 08:25 AM
Azizi 20 Jul 08 - 04:03 PM
Azizi 20 Jul 08 - 04:15 PM
Rowan 20 Jul 08 - 06:15 PM
Azizi 20 Jul 08 - 07:02 PM
topical tom 21 Jul 08 - 08:07 AM
semi-submersible 21 Jul 08 - 08:19 AM
semi-submersible 21 Jul 08 - 08:42 AM
Azizi 21 Jul 08 - 09:23 AM
topical tom 21 Jul 08 - 11:38 AM
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Subject: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 07:19 AM

What songs {folk songs or otherwise} or children's playground rhymes can you think of that include a reference to #9?

What, if anything, does #9 mean, and why does it seem to occur so often in songs & rhymes?

I'll start the ball rolling with some examples from my memory and some examples I've collected on Mudcat, on my website Cocojams, and elsewhere.

Please join in the fun & games by sharing examples of & comments about songs and rhymes that mention the number 9!*

For the sake of folkloric documentation, if you post any examples of children's playground rhymes, please include demographical information-particularly where {city, state in the US, and city, country outside the USA} you remember chanting that rhyme or when you first heard it chanted. Also, please include performance information such as whether this was/is a counting out rhyme, a ball bouncing/jump rope {skip rope} rhyme, or a handclap rhyme {hand game} etc.

Thanks, in advance, for your participation in this thread!

* For the record, I'm still working on a book about English children's rhymes, and I may be interested in including any examples of those rhymes that are posted on this thread.


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Subject: Lyr Add: AL BOWEN (from Almeda Riddle)
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 07:26 AM

Al Bowen
Mrs. Riddle: "This is 'Al Bowen.' This is the engineer that hit Number 9.")

'Twas Christmas night, the night was dark,
And the moon had hidden her face.
Al Bowen, a faithful engineer,
Went cheerfully to his place.

Al had a smile, kind word for all;
A courteous man was he.
His winning ways made many a friend,
As many will agree.

Before he made that fatal trip,
He cheerfully proclaimed,
"Goodbye, Mama dear; if I never come back,
I'll love you just the same.

"I hate to make my run tonight;
My headlight is no good.
I fear some evil may take place;
I feel just like it would.

"But there's no use to be afraid.
No extra men have we.
I'll do my duty come what may;
What is to be will be."

Then he took his seat inside the cab,
MacNelly by his side.
"Now keep your place, old man," said he,
"We'll take a flying ride.

"We're thirty minutes late tonight;
Buck Hannon, how he'll swear.
He's switching now at the station . . .
I see his headlight there.

"Pile in the coal, heat her up," said he,
"We've got to make up lost time."
Then to his surprise he saw a headlight
Come streaming down the line.

"That's old No. 9, good God," he said,
"And she's coming around the neck.
Oh, jump, Mac, jump; I'll stay with her;
You'll find me in the wreck."

Christmas morning the searchers came
And found his body there,
But his soul had taken its flight
To Elysian fields so fair.

We never will know the cause of it;
A signal wrong was given,
But we hope we know Al's soul's at rest
In the faraway peaceful Heaven.

http://www.lyon.edu/wolfcollection/songs/riddleal1258.html

On that website there's a link to a recording of this song.


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 07:36 AM

Two examples of "Miss Susie Had A Steamboat"

miss susie had a steam boat the steam boat had a bell miss susie went to heaven the steam boat went to hello operator please give me number 9 if you dissconect me ill kick you from behind the frigderator there lie a piece of glass miss susie sat apon it and cut her little ask me no more questions tell me no more lies miss susie told me all of this before the day she died her hair purpel she died her haid pink she died here hair all diffenrnt colors then washed down the sink me in the ocean sink me in the sea sink me in the toilet but please dont pee on me
- ?????? ; 10/6/2003; http://blog.oftheoctopuses.com/000518.php

**

Ms. Susie had a steamboat, the steamboat had a bell-DING DING-the steamboat went to heaven, Ms. Susie went to-Hello operator, give me number 9, and if u disconnect me, I'll kick you from-Behind the fridgerator, there was a piece of glass, Ms. Susie went to pick it up and fell upon her-Ask me no more questions, tell me no more lies, the boys are in the bathroom zipping up their-Flies are in the meddow, bees are in the park, Ms. Susie and her boyfriend are kissing in the D-A-R-K D-A-R-K-Darker than the ocean, darker than the sea, darker than the underwear my sister puts on me!
-NO1 U KNOW; 2/18/2004; http://blog.oftheoctopuses.com/000518.php

-snip-

No demographics or peformance information was included with these posts. However, it appears that Miss Susie {or "Muss Lucy" or "Miss Molly" etc} Had A Steamboat {or "A Tugboat"}" is usually performed as a partner handclap rhyme by girls ages 6-12 years.


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 08:03 AM

Ah Beep Beep


****
Ah Beep Beep
Ah Beep Beep
Ah Beep Beep
Walkin down the street
Ugawa. Ugawa
That means Black power.
White boy.
Destroy..
I said it. I meant it
And I'm here to represent it.
Soul sister number 9
Sock it to me one more time.
Uh hun! Uh Hun!
Source: Tracey S.,{African American female}; Harrisburg, Pennsylvania; childhood remembrance,1968 ; collected by Azizi Powell, 2000;{in Pittsburgh, PA}; http://cocojams.com/handclap_rhymes.htm

Note:
Tracey told me that, although she was in kindergarten at the time, she has clear memories of {Black} older girls & girls her age standing on their porches reciting this rhyme in a taunting way while White policeman were patrolling the streets of her neighborhood during the riots that occurred as a result of Martin Luther King's assassination. Tracey said that she considered this to be more than a taunt. She said that the rhyme to be an expression of Black pride & unity as well as a taunt directed to the White policemen.

"Ungawa" is a movie industry made up expression found in Tarzan movies where it supposedly was how Native Americans, or Africans or other non-White people greeted each other or talked to each other. During the late 1960s, this word was taken up by Afro-centric Black Americans who added the rhyming phrase "Black power" {power pronounced here as "powa". Thus a word that was used in demeaning ways found new life as an affirmation of Black pride.

In the example given by Tracey, "white boy. Destroy" means "Destroy white boys". Whether she knew what she was saying and whether she should have been saying it is a whole 'nuther matter.

"Sock it to me!" was a popular African American slogan during that time that probably originated as a sexualized expression. However, from my remembrance of the use of this saying, "Sock it to me" mostly comes from R&B records where this saying was repeated a "number" of times {though not nine times], and meant something like "Give it to me!". In that context, "Give it to me!" meant "Show me what you've got", meaning show me your best dance moves. Of course, the best dance moves were also usually the sexy, hip shaking ones, or they were the body to body slow dancing that we called "grinding". So in a way, we're full circle.


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 08:27 AM

This next example of number nine, is from a children's rhyme that I found on a School Rhymes discussion on this website:

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=405667

"The lastest hand clapping rhyme i've heard from my daughter goes something like this:

eenie meanie popsaweenie
you are the one for me
education, numeration
I like you
Going down down baby
Down by the river
sweet sweet sugar
I like you
So sister number 9
hit me with it one more time
Caught you with your boyfriend
naughty naughty
Didn't do the dishes
lazy lazy
Jumping out the window
cos you flippin CRAZY


Crazy has to be screamed out at the top of your voice in the worst essex/cockney accent you can muster

She's 8 (year 3) What is the world coming to"
-stormin norm 22-06-2006, 22:42 Great Britain
#4 [post of that discussion]

Note:
In my opinion, the change from "soul sister number nine"-as given in the example I posted immediately before this one-to "so sister number nine" is probably a result of folk etymology. It's probable that whoever shared this rhyme with that British girl wasn't familiar with the referent/expression "soul sister number nine", ans so the line was changed to make more sense to those chanting it.

The next line "hit me with it one more time" means basically the same thing as "give it to me"/"sock it to me". However, I associate that saying most with superstar R&B singer James Brown's instruction to his drummer to "Hit me with it one time {and the drummer would play one beat}. Then James Brown would say "Hit me with it two times {and the drummer would play two beats}. etc. I suppose that this colloquial expression could have been introduced to Great British children through James Brown's and others' R&B records. This phrase may have come from American jazz and/or blues [??]. At any rate, I think "hit me with it one time" was probably more familiar to non-American children than the saying "sock It To me".

**

I'm interested in knowing where the saying "soul sister #9" came from. Also, what is the earliest documented use of that expression/referent.

Anybody know or care to hazard a guess?


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 08:30 AM

Correction:

I just noticed an error in the "Ah Beep Beep" example that I posted.
That phrase is not supposed to repeated. The beginning of that rhyme goes:

"Ah beep beep
walkin down the street"


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: MaineDog
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 09:13 AM

What about the "Nine Points of Roguery"?
We often played the tune, wondering who could name all nine points, and also exclaim "Been there, done that!" for each point.
We could start out with:
drunkenness
Lechery
Womanizing
card playing
gambling
telling of tall tales
playing the banjo
lechery
gluttony
dancing
misleading the young
irreverence
etc.

MD


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 09:18 AM

Engine Engine Number Nine

Engine Engine Number Nine
Going down the street car line
If that train rolls off the track
Do you want your money back
{Yes}
Y-E-S spells yes
And you are O-U-T out.
-Multiple sources, including from my memory of Atlantic City, New Jersey {1950s}

Note:
Engine Engine Number Nine was used as a choosing it/counting out rhyme. Girls and boys used it {and still use it} for this purpose. When I was a child, a group of children would either huddle around the chanter or [at another time] would stand in a straight line in front of the chanter. One method of playing was that all the children would stretch out their right arm toward the chanter, with their right fist balled up.* The chanter would then touch each child's fist with each word. The child who's fist was touched at the end of the question "Do you want your money back could say "Yes" or she or he could say "No". The chanter would then continue the rhyme by using that response in the next part of the rhyme. The child whose fist was touched at the end of the rhyme was "out". This continued until one person remained. We used this rhyme was used to pick "it" in hide & go seek games. Unlike accounts that I've read in a number of children's books on rhymes, people wanted to be "it".

*In my childhood I also remember children standing in a horizontal line facing the chanter who stood facing them. Each child in the line stretched out her or his right foot and the chanter would touch each child in the row's foot while saying the rhyme. The rest of the chant continued as given above.

I've seen this rhyme used for picking team captains in an after-school program that I facilitated at various times from 1999-2006, in Pittsburgh, PA {African American girls & boys ages 5-12 years}. In a collection note from 2004, the group was to play relay running races, but two captains had to be picked. I asked the children how we should pick captains. An eight year old boy said he would show me. He then said I'mma say Engine Engine Number 9" and told the rest of the children to "Come on". The children huddled around him and stretched out their right foot. The rhyme proceeded as I described it above. The boy used a faster tempo than I recall using as a child-I think this was to get the rhyme over with and the races started. At any rate I've seen/heard this rhyme chanted fast-like this boy did-or a bit slower than that-as I recall it being done in my childhood. Which ever tempo you start with is the one you use througout. To do otherwise would be preceived as cheating.

The ending for the rhyme that this boy used was "And you are not the one to be it in this game". I've seen other examples of the "out" line being changed, but whichever way it's said must be said throughout the entire recitation.

At the end of the recitation, the last child who remained was the first team captain. That team captain then became the new chanter, and the process started all over again {with the first chanter as part of the group of children}. When that captain was picked by this process, the two of them-starting with the first captain picked-would alternate selecting children for their relay race team by calling out that person's name or nickname.

When those races ended, if the group had time in that session to start the races again, my rule was that the two children who were chosen last were the new team captains. They then selected members for their team by calling out the name of the person they wanted on that team. In that way, the self-esteem of those children got a boost, and we didn't have to go through the process of saying "Engine Engine Number Nine" again.


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 09:29 AM

MaineDog, thanks for posting that example of the use of number 9.

I'm never heard of "Nine Points of Roguery" before. Would you please share more information? Is this an adult game? I like the "been there" done that" response. I take it that even if people hadn't done what the word was proceeding it, they were still supposed to say "been there done that". Is that correct?

Was this said in unison, or one person after another with a "caller" or soloist leading the game?

And when do you recall playing this? {meaning what decade} Is it old, or is it something that traditional, or a "modern" party game, meaning its played at social events for adults?

And since your name is MaineDog, am I correct in assuming that this is a New England game? Do you know if it is known elsewhere?

Thanks again for your addition to this thread!


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 12:20 PM

The Wreck Of The # 9 (Carson Robinson) should be in DT


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 12:25 PM

Strange but a DT search doesn't show it:

http://www.lizlyle.lofgrens.org/RmOlSngs/RTOS-NumberNine.html


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 02:07 PM

Sandy Mc Lean, that's a great article!! I appreciate you posting a link to it.

Here's a brief excerpt of that article:

"When I was growing up, I listened repeatedly to several train-wreck records that my parents had bought before I was born. My two favorites were Old 97 and Number 9, both because of their wonderful tunes. I didn't discover until reading the Scalded book that Number 9 was fictional, a song made up by a professional hillbilly singer named Carson Robison, following tried-and-true formulas. He admitted that it was based on no actual train wreck".

-snip-

The writer reference is to Katie Letcher Lyle's book Scalded to Death by the Steam (Algonquin Books of Chapel Hill, 1991) which "is all about train wrecks that have become the subject of songs".


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 02:38 PM

I'm sorry. I have two more corrections, both to my 19 Jul 08 - 09:18 AM post.

This is what happens when I rush and write something down from memory and don't check my notes first because "I remember this as well as I remember my name". Ummm-so what's my name, again?

First of all, the last line of "Engine Engine Number Nine" that I wrote [from my memory of my childhood] is wrong.

The actual last line that was used was "And you are not it" [with no spelling]. Or we could say "And you are it", again with no spelling.

**

Secondly, my notes from the after-school session in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania {Fort Pitt Elementary School, April 2004} documents that an 8 year old boy [whose name I didn't write down] voluntarily gave me two counting out/choosing it rhymes. The last one was used to choose team captains for relay racing. The first rhyme was "Engine Engine Number Nine" [going down the trolley line. However, the actual rhyme that was used to choose the team captains was "Eenie Meenie Minie Mo".

The version of Eenie Meenie Minie Mo that the first boy said was:

Eenie Meenie Miney Mo
Catch a tiger by the toe
If he hollers let him go
Enty Minty Miney Mo

-snip-

I have an exclamation point after that last line because it isn't the way I grew up saying it. I also noted that the boy selected as the first team captain also said the last line the same way as the first boy, perhaps in imitation of him.

Most African American children in the Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania area who I've heard recite this rhyme give the last line as "Eenie Meenie Miney Mo", which was how I learned it. However, from time to time, after that I've heard other Black children in Pittsburgh area say enty, minty miney mo."

**

My apologies for posting that misrememberd information. I've learned a lesson from this experience that when sharing information like this, I have to have my notes in front of me.


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: MaineDog
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 06:50 PM

Folk songs are never wrong!
They do continuously evolve.
Don't sweat the small stuff, just sing.
MD


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 07:05 PM

MaineDog. I agree that no version of a folk rhyme is the right version.

However, what I was concerned about was my failing to check my notes and therefore posting inaccurate information-from a folkloric documentation point of view.

I believe that it's important to collect and accurately report demographial information about which version was sung or chanted when, and by whom, and how it was performed. That's the reason why I felt that it was important from a folkloric standpoint to post corrections about the information that I had posted earlier, however minor in the scheme of things that this is.


**

Btw, MaineDog, I'm hoping that you'll respond to my post of 19 Jul 08 - 09:29 AM in which I ask you some questions about "Nine Points of Roguery".

??


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: oldhippie
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 08:31 PM

Wasn't there a song, "Love Potion Number 9" ?


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Subject: Lyr Add: LOVE POTION NUMBER NINE (Lieber/Stoller)
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 08:44 PM

Love Potion Number Nine
The Clovers, The Searchers

I took my troubles down to Madame Rue
You know that gypsy with the gold-capped tooth
She's got a pad down on Thirty-Fourth and Vine
Sellin' little bottles of Love Potion Number Nine

I told her that I was a flop with chics
I've been this way since 1956
She looked at my palm and she made a magic sign
She said "What you need is Love Potion Number Nine"

She bent down and turned around and gave me a wink
She said "I'm gonna make it up right here in the sink"
It smelled like turpentine, it looked like Indian ink
I held my nose, I closed my eyes, I took a drink

I didn't know if it was day or night
I started kissin' everything in sight
But when I kissed a cop down on Thirty-Fourth and Vine
He broke my little bottle of Love Potion Number Nine

------ guitar solo ------

I held my nose, I closed my eyes, I took a drink

I didn't know if it was day or night
I started kissin' everything in sight
But when I kissed a cop down on Thirty-Fourth and Vine
He broke my little bottle of Love Potion Number Nine
Love Potion Number Nine
Love Potion Number Nine
Love Potion Number Nine

by Leiber / Stoller

http://www.bluesforpeace.com/lyrics/love-potion.htm


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: SINSULL
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 09:17 PM

Sixteen Tons

I loaded sixteen tons of Number Nine coal
And the Straw(?) boss said "Well bless my soul."


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: Neil D
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 02:28 AM

"Revolution #9" by The Beatles


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: Jay777
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 03:26 AM

Fourpence a Day by Ewan MacColl, last line: "And he might raise our wages to nine pence a day". Seems like galloping inflation to me, but I love this song.


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: GUEST,wordfella
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 05:53 AM

Out on runway number nine
Big 707's set to go...


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: Jay777
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 05:58 AM

A search on "nine" brings up loads in the DT.


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 07:06 AM

Jay777, thanks for that information.

And thanks to others who have posted on this thread thus far.

At least for me, song category threads are kinda like lighthearted games in which people are supposed to use their memory to come up with songs that fit that particular category. This is my approach to these kinds of threads, but that expectation or rule isn't written down anywhere.

But, given my expectation that people are supposed to dig into their memory bank for examples in that particular category which can be posted to that thread, to use the wonderful Digital Tradition list of songs, or to use an Internet search engine like Google to come up with an example, is like cheating.

However, like I said, I didn't state that rule from the onset of this thread or any other category thread that I've started. And I've never seen that rule or expectation stated anywhere. Therefore, if you and some other people prefer to use the DigiTrad, and/or a search engine, or any other resource to come up with examples to post in this category thread or any other category thread, then go for it!

Also, I appreciate you mentioning the DigiTrad because sometimes people-including me-forget to use that resource when we are thinking about a song and can't remember its words. There've been a number of times when I googled the song's lyrics and the first listing on Google is the Digitrad on Mudcat, or a Mudcat thread {which means that using the internal search engine is sometimes also helpful, particularly if you're aware that-because of the Mudcat engine crash in some month in 2005-the key words will only pull up threads before that month in 2005, and the message shown on that search listing may not correlate with the given thread.

But there is another reason why I start category threads-beside that challenge your mind reason. A lot of times when I start these threads I'm hoping to learn about songs-and children's playground rhymes within that stated category that I've never knew before. Furthermore, when I start a category thread, or read one that I didn't start, I anticipate that I'll learn something about about or related to those songs that I didn't know before.

In addition, I find category threads most interesting when the poster shares memories that he or she has associated with that song. That often makes the song more memorable for me, too.

For all of these reasons, I prefer it when posters don't list multiple examples of songs that fit the given category. That said, I know that everyone does not have to have the same expectations about [of?] these category threads that I do. Some people may like the challenge of listing a large number of song titles that fit that category. If so, who am I to spoil their fun? [That's a rhetorical question. I know I don't have the power to spoil someone else's fun, and if I did have that power, I wouldn't use it].

I'm sure there are at least 9 other things that I could say on this subject, but I'll stop right here.


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: MaineDog
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 08:25 AM

re: Nine (9) (IX) (---------) points of Roguery, the following link may help

Nine Points of Roguery (tune reference)

What the required, or officially sanctioned points may be and how they are to be exorcised is the subject of much speculation, mainly of an intellectual sort, due to the ages and family status of the participants, but discussions of the problem at hand are frequently fruitful, especially around a camp fire with instruments and booze present.
Good luck in you research
MD


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Subject: Lyr Add: CLOUD NINE (from The Temptations)
From: Azizi
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 04:03 PM

Cloud Nine
[performed by the Temptations]

A-who, who, awho, who...

Dennis:
The childhood part of my life wasn't very pretty.
You see, I was born and raised in the slums of the city.
It was a one room shack we slept in, other children beside me.
We hardly had enough food or room to sleep.
It was a hard times, needed something to ease my troubled mind.

Paul:
Ooo, listen.
My father didn't know the meaning of work.
He disrespected Mama and treated us like dirt.
I left home seekin' a job that I never did find.
Depressed and down-hearted, I took to Cloud 9.
I'm doing...(fine)
Up here. (On cloud nine)
Listen one more time.
I'm doing...(fine)
Up here. (On cloud nine)

Dennis:
Folks now they tell me.
They say, give yourself a chance and don't let life pass you by.
But the world around you is a rat race.
Where only the strong survive.
It's a dog-eat-dog world and that ain't no lie. (Ain't no lie)
Listen, it ain't even safe no more, to walk the streets at night.

Eddie: I'm doing fine on Cloud 9.
Dennis: Let me tell you about Cloud 9.

(Cloud 9)Paul: You can be what you wanna be.
(Cloud 9)Dennis: You ain't got no responsibility.
(Cloud 9)Eddie: Every man, every man is free.
(Cloud 9)Dennis: You're a million miles from reality.

(Reality) I'm gonna sail (up, up) higher (up, up... up, up and away) Cloud 9.

Eddie:
I wanna say I love the life I live.
And I'm gonna live the life I love.
Up here on Cloud 9.
Uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, I'm riding high on Cloud 9.

Dennis: You're as free as a bird in flight.
(Cloud 9)Melvin: There's no diff'rence between day and night.
(Cloud 9)Eddie: It's a world of love and harmony.
(Cloud 9)Dennis: You're a million miles from reality.

(Reality) I'm gonna sail (up, up) higher (up, up... up, up and away) Cloud 9.

Paul: You can be what you wanna be.
(Cloud 9)Dennis: You ain't got no responsibility.
(Cloud 9)Eddie: Every man in his mind is free.
(Cloud 9)Dennis: You're a million miles from reality.
(Cloud 9)Paul: You can be what you wanna be.

Boom-boom-boom-boom-boom...
Eddie: I'm feeling fine on Cloud 9

http://www.seeklyrics.com/lyrics/The-Temptations/Cloud-Nine.html


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 04:15 PM

Off-Topic

I never liked that Cloud Nine song, but it does fit the theme of this thread.

However, I'm going to do my spirit a favor and make up for reminding me-and you-of that Cloud Nine song by posting a link to a YouTube video of another song the Temptations perform that I really like-though it has nothing whatsoever to do with the #9:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYO7Avah1k8&feature=related
Temptations - Old man river

Enjoy!


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: Rowan
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 06:15 PM

A counting recitation from my youth (taught me in 1962 by a girlfriend who became a Carmelite nun) went;
One for sorrow,
two for joy,
three for a girl,
four for a boy,
five for a wish,
six for a kiss,
seven for silver,
eight for gold,
nine for a story that's never been told.

Like the "Tinker, tailor, soldier, sailor ..." series it was used to count buttons on your shirtfront, successive sneezes etc. It didn't progress beyond nine but I subsequently heard another version that went only up to six;
One for sorrow,
two for joy,
three for a girl,
four for a boy,
five for a letter,
six for something better.

I learned both in Melbourne.

Cheers, Rowan


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 20 Jul 08 - 07:02 PM

Rowan, thanks for returning this thread back to the subject of songs or children's rhymes that mention #9.

I think the reason why there are so many songs & rhymes that mention the number nine is that there are a lot of other English words that rhyme with "nine"-like "wine"; "fine"; "shine"; :line"; "mine", "behind"-the direction or the part of the body ;o)

Then there's "time", a word that doesn't really rhyme with "fine" but pretends to sometimes.

For example, check out this partner handclap rhyme:

Verses: When Billy Boy was one, he learned to suck his thumb. Thumb Billy, Thumb Billy, half past one. When Billy Boy was two, he learned to tie his shoe. Shoe Billy, Shoe Billy, half past two. When Billy Boy was three, he learned to climb a tree. Tree Billy, Tree Billy, half past three. When Billy Boy was four, he learned to close the door. Door Billy, Door Billy, half past four. When Billy Boy was five, he learned to swim and dive. Dive Billy, Dive Billy, half past five. When Billy Boy was six, he learned to pick up sticks. Sticks Billy, Sticks Billy, half past six. When Billy Boy was seven, he learned to pray to heaven. Heaven Billy, Heaven Billy, half past seven. When Billy Boy was eight, he learned to roller skate. Skate Billy, Skate Billy, half past eight. When Billy Boy was nine, he learned to tell the time. Time Billy, Time Billy, half past nine. When Billy Boy was ten, he learned to catch the hens. Hens Billy, Hens Billy, half past ten. Cross down, then end!
-Jackie; 8/28/2007; http://cocojams.com/handclap_rhymes.htm

[Italics added by me for emphasis]

Here's the performance direction that Jackie sent in to my website Cocojams along with this example:

"Two people sit facing each other. I'll do my best to describe the handclap motions... Cross down - start by crossing both hands over your chest, with your finger tips touching your shoulders, then uncross them and smack your thigh's. Your left hand will smack your left thigh and right hand, right thigh. The next step is to clap. When you clap, you begin singing the song. (For example: (cross down) (Clap), When Billy Boy was one..... (now begin claping with your partner - your right hand claps with their right hand - then you clap your hands together, next your left hand claps with your partner's left hand, then you clap your hands together. Repeat until the verse is over. When you start the next verse, begin again with cross down, slap your thighs, When Billy Boy was two...etc."


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: topical tom
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 08:07 AM

I believe that there is a song "Illinois Central Number Nine" but I can find neither the chords nor the lyrics. Is it known by a different title?


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: semi-submersible
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 08:19 AM

...
This old man, he played nine
He played knick-knack on a vine
With a knick-knack paddy-whack, give a dog a bone
This old man came rolling home
...

(I'm not sure but I think I may have occasionally substituted "some twine," thinking of piles of cut-off twine from the family net shed where fishing nets are repaired. I know I modified the lyrics by singing "running home" instead of "rolling home" in verse five, after he plays his knocking game on a hive: I imagined he'd provoke the bees.)

I don't know what ages I and my two siblings would have been, or where we learned it, but probably from adults or a printed/recorded source as there weren't many opportunities to play with other children in our neck of the woods. We were born 1966 to 1970 and grew up in a small rural BC (Canada) coast community.

- - -

One rhyme we probably did learn from other children was Eenie Meenie Miney Mo. The last line was always the same as the first. The "n-word" was used in the second line, but "tiger" was sometimes heard. I remember feeling uncomfortable, torn between using what I considered the original version, and the inoffensive variation. I don't believe I had yet met anyone of that ethnicity, but I had become aware the word was pejorative.

- - -

Azizi, you wrote above that "Sock it to me" probably originated as a sexualised expression. Does this phrase predate the use of "sock" as a synonym for "hit"? If not, I'd expect to see the phrase "sock it to [someone]" in use first in boxing circles. It could be onomatopoeic (imitating the sound of a blow) or (much less likely) could refer to the gloves worn to protect a fighter's hands.


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: semi-submersible
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 08:42 AM

As far as I know no-one ever imitated those modifications to This Old Man lyrics.


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 09:23 AM

Neil, I was being imprecise in my writing. I agree with you that "sock it" didn't start off as a sexualized phrase. Rather it appears that its earliest meaning was "to punch", or hit hard. I'm sure I don't need to explain how that meaning became sexualized.

I'm not sure if the etymology for "socks", the clothing item that is used to cover feet comes from the same source word as the action word "sock".

Here's a link to an interesting & informative article about the history of the word "sock" and the phrase "sock it to me":

http://everything2.com/e2node/Sock%2520it%2520to%2520me

Here's an excerpt from that article:

Sock it to me is certainly American in origin; how it got from meaning in the sense of 'tell me, give it to me, hit me, shoot,' to a phrase that was "at once meaningless and very meaningful and carried - among other ideas - a vague, implied sexual invitation" has a "Verrrry interesstink!" story to tell....
Outrageously popular it transitioned television entertainment from the stand up comedy on The Ed Sullivan Show to the next generation of the related variety show Saturday Night Live.

This wasn't the first time the phrase was used of course. It dates from some time around the 1850s and the earliest example in print that's been discovered so far is from a book published in 1866 about the American Civil War including the following quote:

"Now then, tell General Emory if they attack him again to go after them, and to follow them up, and to sock it to them, and to give them the devil".

One linguist gives his opinion about this particular source:
Pretty clearly this comes from a much older low slang use of the word sock, meaning to hit or punch, to give somebody a heavy blow, to assault or beat someone. There was also the phrase to give someone sock, to give someone a thrashing. These date back to the late seventeenth century in Britain, and were presumably carried to the USA by emigrants...

The Queen of Soul stood the phrase completely on it's head with her late sixties legendary version that has since become a legendary success with its never-to-be forgotten "sock-it-to-me" background part; to many it turned into an anthem for women's rights..." *

-snip-

* This is a reference to R&B singer Aretha Franklin's recording of the song "Respect" that repeats the phrase "sock it to me". My sense is that it was the tremendous popularity of that Aretha Franklin record that led to the phrase "sock it to me" being interpreted by children {and adults} to mean the non-sexual command "Give it to me!"


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: topical tom
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 11:38 AM

My memory finally kicked in! The true title is Tennessee Central Number Nine


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: semi-submersible
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 12:00 PM

"Give sock" meant "thrash"? I wonder if there was any conflation of "sock" with "sack" in a military or industrial context in the early 19th century (sack of a conquered town, sackcloth for rough use)? I understand "sack" is current schoolyard slang meaning to deliver a blow - to the scrotal area, that is. "Sock" as footwear could conceivably be influenced by "stocking," though probably not derived from it since it would be hard to lose a "t" in mid-syllable.


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: GUEST,Meadowmuskrat
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 02:59 PM

Billy Ed Wheeler's Coal Tattoo also references the #9 coal, whatever that designation means?


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 10:20 PM

Here's a CD that's bound to have at least one or two other Number Nine train songs:

Railroad Songs and Ballads CD
[Library of Congress}
Price: $17.00

Availability: Usually ships in 3-4 business days.

Product #: 21202052

-snip-

Unfortunately, there's a notation that says it's out of stock.

For the sake of the fokloric record, I'm taking the liberty to repost this CD's summary. Besides, if you stretched things a little bit {okay, a lot}, you could say the summary fits the theme of this thread because there's is a number nine included in it. {Hint-it's one of the years noted that the songs were collected}.


"The history and the mystery of the railroad ring out from this 22-track collection of American railroad songs and music from the Archive of Folk Culture at the Library of Congress. Recorded by 16 different collectors between 1936 and 1959, the collection includes songs about the construction of the railroad and railroading as craft, as well as songs that tap the symbolic significance of the train. Train calls, track-lining chants, stories of famous train wrecks and instrumental train imitations are joined by spirituals using train imagery and folk descendants of popular compositions about the railroad. Mrs. Minta Morgan, vocals / Warde H. Ford, vocals / Henry Hankins, vocals / Aunt Molly Jackson, vocals / Blaine Stubblefield, vocals, guitar / Nobel B. Brown, vocals / Lester A. Coffee, vocals / Austin Harmon, vocals, banjo / Clarence H. Wyatt, vocals, guitar / Russell Wise, fiddle / Mr. White, guitar / The Ridge Rangers, stringband/ Mrs. Esco Kilgore, vocals / Will Wright, vocals / Merle Lovell, vocals, guitar / Jim Holbert, vocals / Joe Harris, vocals, guitar / Kid West, vocals, mandolin / 22 tracks on CD include: Calling Trains; The Boss of the Section Gang; Jerry Will You Ile that Car; Lining Track; Roll On Buddy; Way Out in Idaho; Oh, I'm a Jolly Irishman Winding on the Train; The Engineer; George Allen; The Wreck of the Royal Palm; Train Blues; The New River Train; The Train is Off the Track; Gonna Lay My Head Down on Some Railroad Line; I Rode Southern, I Road L. & N.; The Lightning Express; Railroad Rag; The Railroader; The T. & P. Line; The Dying Hobo; The Big Rock Candy Mountains; I'm Going Home on the Morning Train"

http://www.loc.gov/shop/index.php?action=cCatalog.showItem&cid=13&scid=70&iid=868


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: Jay777
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 04:20 AM

Re your lengthy post of 19th July timed at 07.06 am, Azizi: I'm new to Mudcat, and hadn't realise that your original post was just a game. On re-reading it, I see you mention "fun and games", but I'd assumed you were genuinely seeking songs containing the number 9- silly me! My first post, re Fourpence a Day, was off the top of my head. I was trying to be helpful by later referring to the DT. I realise now you are an old hand at this forum, so didn't need to be referred to the DT, as a newbie might. I am sorry if you thought this was advocating "cheating". That was certainly not my intention; I just misunderstood the nature of the thread. I apologise for any offence, and if I spoiled this game for others. I'll try not to make any more mistakes, but hey- I'm only human (but NOT a cheat)!


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 06:57 AM

Jay777, one of the problems with communicating on the Internet is that the written words can't convey inflections and it's difficult for people to convey nuances because people can't see each other's body language.

Tn my opinion, difficulties with communication are multiplied on international forums such as Mudcat for a host of reasons. On a number of Mudcat threads people have talked about and given examples of how people in the US and people in Great Britain, Australia, and other English speaking nations-even the US and Canada-are sometimes "seperated by a common language".

Before I started posting on Mudcat [and I wouldn't consider myself either a "newbie" or an "oldie" Mudcat member-I guess I'm an "inbetweenie" since I started posting as a guest in August 2004 and joined the following month-and Mudcat has been around since 1997]. But I digressed. What I was going to say was that before I started posting on Mudcat, I didn't realize that English speaking folks around the world not only have different slang/colloquial expressions, but that a person's culture of origin a specific nation as well as in other nations can "color" and change the meaning of the English language word or phrase that is spelled and maybe even pronounced the same in those separate cultures & nations. And on top of all of that, a person's gender, age, religion, race/ethnicity, economic class, special interests, and personality, including her or his sense of humor {humour}, and to what degree she or he take things literally, may create difficulties with clear communication between that person and other people [both on & off of the Internet]. I'd also include in this mixmash the fact that people who know each other {as members of a group or otherwise} tend to engage in verbal shorthand and make references to people, places, and things and to past joint experiences. And then you have to add that a number of people in this forum-including me- like to engage in verbal word play which we hope other people think is us being witty. With all of this-and probably more-it's a wonder that any clear communication gets on this forum called Mudcat.

Jay777, let me try to be clear- I absolutely meant no ill will to you to say that you were "cheating" when you referred readers and fellow posters in this thread to the DigiTrad. I recognize that my use of that word was ill advised, and I'm sorry that I used it.

My use of the word "cheating" refers back [in that in-group communication way, to my "primary" interest on Mudcat-children's playground rhymes. By using that word I was trying to evoke the "feel" of how a child may say that another child is cheating when that second child moves-even if it's just slightly-away from how the first child thinks a game should be played. Given all the difficulties with inter-group communication that I listed above, I now realize that it was a mistake to even jokenly refer to another person, especially one who I don't know, and who doesn't know me, as "cheating".

For the record, all of the category threads that I start contain {and will contain} elements of lightheared fun {and games} and of serious research.

Part of what I love about Mudcat threads is that a person never knows how people will interprete the presented topic of that thread, what tangential topics will be discussed on that thread, and what the general "feel" will be of that thread. I like to view threads as informal conversations. And I don't mind if the conversation goes off-topic, since {at least in my experience Ha! Ha! conversations have a tendency to go all over the place in real life and on this discussion forum}. As long as the conversation is interesting and I'm cool with it [in this context "cool" means I'll okay with it; it's fine with me]. Not that it matters what I feel, though I take believe being the thread starter does mean that a person has some responsiblility to that thread. To enumerate what I think those would be a whole 'nuther digression. So I'll leave that for another time.

When I started this thread, I felt that the "vibe" on Mudcat was very somber, which was understandable given the tragedies and losses that several Mudcatters had just experienced. I started this thread, in part, to help lighten that somberness,even for a short while. It's therefore ironic that this thread is much more serious than I expected it to be.

As the thread starter, I take responsibility for the confusion about whether this thread was meant to be fun or serious research. Let me therefore state for the record that it can be both.

Jay777, you said that you are only HUMAN. It's nice to meet you. I am also human, although sometimes I've been known think of myself as a goddess.

:o)

Note: I don't really think I'm a goddess and I really don't want to be treated better than anyone else. I was only trying to be witty, which should show you that I'm not really good at witticisms. But I'm trying. And I think that's worth something.

If we were in the same place Jay777, I'd ask that we shake hands and move on from this confusion. I hope that you would do that, and that we-you and I-and others will share some good times and some interesting information on this place that we call Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 08:10 AM

I went back and re-read this entire thread, and realize that I also owe an apology to semi-submersible for somehow confusing your Date: 21 Jul 08 - 08:19 AM question/comments about the origin & meanings of the word "sock" a comment from NeilD.

Was it a full moon when this thread started? Or was Mercury in Retrograde? There must be some reason-besides my mind being scattered in all directions even more so than usual-for me making all these mistakes.

Please accept my apology, semi-submersible. I'll try to be more careful from now on.


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: GUEST,CrazyEddie
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 08:54 AM

Rowan, 20Jul08 06.15 "One for sorrow" etc. is used when you see magpies.
You will rarely see very many, but I knew someone, who, if he saw a single magpye (Sorrow) would not go home until he had see another (Joy). I always thaough this was cheating, as i thought you needed to see whatever number together, not sequentially.


Clementine:
"Drove she ducklings to the water
Every morning just at NINE
Hit her foot against a splinter
Fell inmto the foaming brine.
Oh My Darling...


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: Rowan
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 07:04 PM

CrazyEddie, would you be writing from the UK?

I ask because I've encountered differences of understandings about magpies between the UK and the Oz countrysides. The ones in Oz can be aggressive during nest-building season (when testes make up 1/6th of the body weight of an adult male) but are usually solo or in pairs. Excepting the adolescents, when bands of them form and "hoon around the landscape" (seriously, their behaviour is just like adolescent people).

In Oz, I've not heard the "One for sorrow..." applied to groups of animals. generally, let alone to magpies specifically. Which leads me to wonder (inquisitively) whether you're describing a family tradition or a regional one.

Cheers, Rowan


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: dj bass
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 10:58 AM

Libba Cotten's Freight Train:
When I'm dead and buried deep
Seen no more round Chestnut Steet
Lay me down by that number nine
I wanna hear that train go by

dj


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Subject: Lyr Add: NINE POUND HAMMER (Merle Travis)
From: GUEST,Joseph de Culver City
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 11:28 PM

This one has a couple:
                                                                   Nine pound hammer (merle travis)


This Nine Pound Hammer,
Is a little too heavy,
For my side, baby for my side.

I'm a-goin' to the mountain,
Gonna see my baby.
But i ain't comin' back,
No. I ain't comin' back.

Roll on, buddy,
Don't ya roll so slow.
How, can I roll,
When my wheels won't go.

Well. it's a long way to Harlan,
It's a long way to Hazard,
Just to get a little brew,
Just to get a little brew.

When I'm long gone,
Don't you make my tombstone,
Outta number nine coal,
Outta number nine coal.


some others:

'96 Tears'-? and the Mysterians
'The One After 909'-The Beatles
'99 and a Half Just Won't Do'


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 06:03 PM

soul sista number nine sock it to me one more time said umpf un-gowa we got the powa siad umpf un-gowa we got the powa. little sally walker was walkin down the street. she didn't know what to go so she jumped in front of me she said go on girl do your thang do your thang do your thang go on girl do your thang do your thang stop


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: oldhippie
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 06:32 PM

Don't forget:

Piano Man

Its nine o'clock on a Saturday
The regular crowd shuffles in
There's an old man sitting next to me
Makin' love to his tonic and gin...


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 06:39 PM

Devil's Nine Questions (Child #1)


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 06:40 PM

Guest 05 Apr 09 - 06:03 PM thanks for posting that updated version of the children's game song "Little Sally Walker". I've wondered why the soul sister in songs is always number 9 instead of number 8 or number 3 or some other number. Does anyone know?

Also, thanks oldhippie for your contribution to this thread that I'd forgotten about.

Keep more examples coming!

:o)


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: Joe_F
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 08:10 PM

In addition, Clementine's shoes were no. 9.


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 08:56 PM

Here's another example of "soul sister number 9" that I clipped from a post I wrote in this thread:

I'm Rubber . You're Glue: Children's Rhymes


I'll be. be
Walking down the street,
Ten times a week.
Un-gawa. Un-gawa {baby}
This is my power.
What is the story?
What is the strike?
I said it, I meant it.
I really represent it.
Take a cool cool Black to knock me down.
Take a cool cool Black to knock me out.
I'm sweet, I'm kind.
I'm soul sister number nine.
Don't like my apples,
Don't shake my tree.
I'm a Castle Square Black
Don't mess with me.

[Source: John Langstaff, Carol Langstaff "Shimmy Shimmy Coke-Ca-Pop!, A Collection of City Children's Street Games & Rhymes {Garden City, New York, Double Day & Co; p. 57; 1973}


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 08:59 PM

Joe_F, thanks for posting that info about "Oh My Darlin' Clementine"'s shoe size.

I guess once upon a time, women who wore size nine shoes were considered to have big feet. But I don't think that size is such a big deal nowadays.

Fwiw, I wear size 9 1/2.

:o)


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 09:31 PM

I've thought of two songs from opposite ends of a spectrum.

The first is a hymn called 'The Ninety and Nine,' which is about Jesus' search for his hundredth lost sheep.

The other is an old ballad, 'Willie's Lady.' In it, Willy's jealous mother has cast a spell on his bride. When the spell is removed, the mother cries "Who has undone the nine witch'es knots that I tied in her hair so fine?'

Or something to that effect. Certainly there were nine knots. It's a great song for Hallowe'en.

[is that how you spell witch'es? Suddenly it doesn't look right.]


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: mg
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 02:06 AM

Nine times a night.


Lots of songs about the 49ers aren't there?


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 09:01 AM

Thanks for your examples leeneia. I guess if you spell "Hallowe'en" (holy evening) where you're from you can spell "witch'es" way though I'm used to spelling "Halloween" like that and witches' (more than one witch 'possessing' something) like that.

:o)

And mg,

somebody doing whatever nine times at night with (hopefully just) one of these these-well all I have to say is WOW!

Just kidding.

:o)

I know that at least one 49er song is that same "Oh My Darlin' Clemantine". But I can't think of any others and I can't think of any song with the line "nine times at night".


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 09:03 AM

Typo alert!

I meant to type "you can spell witch'es that way"...


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: BobKnight
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 09:24 AM

Old Tammy Wynette hit - "Apartment No.9"

"Just follow the stairway to this lonely heart of mine,
And you'll find me waiting, in apartment no 9."


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 10:37 AM

Azizi's question about songs with nine reminds me of something I have ruminated on before. That is, that some numbers are cool and some are not. Once, when I worked in a library, I opened the index 'Books in Print - Titles.' There were many, many titles that started with Ten and many, many that started with Thirteen (Halloween, etc) but there were only a handful that started with Eleven. Eleven is just not a cool number.

Nine is a magical number, being 3 times 3. Ten is a technical number. Nine, I am sure, occurs more in fiction and legend, while ten occurs more in practical or technical writing. For example, how many lists do we see of the ten best of something?


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: topical tom
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 11:44 AM

A fun song
"Running Moonshine on Highway Nine".


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: mg
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 11:48 AM

Did anyone say love potion #9.

Nine times a night is a humerous song...anyone have the words? mg


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 03:13 AM

Nine:
A very powerful odd number for luck and magic; being 3x3 it multiplies the force of three and it is the number of months of pregnancy. Many curative charms, divinations and other magical procedures require words or actions to be repeated nine times, nine objects gathered, etc.

Nine Maidens.
Several groups of standing stones in Cornwall and Devon are called 'The Nine Maidens' or 'The Merry Maidens'. Supposedly, these were girls who were turned to stone for dancing on a Sunday; at Belsone, Devon, the piper was petrified too and the stones are said to dance every day at noon.
Such tales are pan-European; they date from the Middle Ages to warn of judgements on sinners who disregard holy times or places.

Both from - A Dictionary of English Folklore, Simpson and Roud.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: pavane
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 07:20 AM

Traditional, Nine times a night
Recorded by Nic Jones

Nic Jones : Unearthed

Words can be seen at the Bodleian Ballad collection, maybe not quite the same:

"nine times a night"


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 09:20 AM

Thanks to all who have shared examples and comments on this thread thus far.

But I want to take a station break and share something about a number that needs no defenders-number eleven:

I have books on numerology, but it's easier to share something from an online resource. Here's an excerpt about #11 from a website that provides information about a number of numbers:

"The spiritual meaning of number eleven is quite diverse.

The number 11 is thought of as a "master" number in numerology because it is a double digit of the same number. When this occurs - the vibrational frequency of the prime number doubles in power. Meaning, the attributes of the Number One are doubled.

Therefore, the very basic and primary understanding of the Number One is that of new beginnings and purity. When we see this digit doubled as with the 11 - then these attributes double in strength.

In numerology the number 11 represents:

Higher ideals
Invention
Refinement
Congruency
Balance
Fulfillment
Vision

The 11 carries a vibrational frequency of balance. It represents male and female equality. It contains bothsun energy and moon energy simultaneously yet holding them both in perspective separate-ness. Perfect balance...

When we add 1+1 (eleven reduced) we get number two - which is also a balance number - Numeral two also deals with:

Equality
Justice
Calm
Kindness
Tact
Duality

http://www.whats-your-sign.com/spiritualmeaningofnumbereleven.html


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 09:31 AM

Still, even though number 11 is numerologically a "cool number", it's true that #11 isn't "hot" when it comes to the titles of books and the title of songs & rhymes.

**

Since I was on that numerological website anyway, I decided to check out the information there about #9. Here's an excerpt of that information:

"It is fitting that we now come full circle with the meaning of nine. Indeed, even the visual depiction of the Arabic "9" spirals in on itself to indicate the completion of a cycle.Nine's hold energy of attainment and completion, but with that closure, we understand we are also faced with renewal. There is no ending without a beginning (indeed the Latin word for nine is novem which shares its root with novus, meaning 'new')...

Undertones of connection and completion rise to the top of our understanding when we consider the nine as a triplication of the ternary triad. Thus, the meaning of nine reflects three realms of experience (in no order):
Body
Mind
Spirit

Nine's further solidify the completion via evolution as evident in adding all of the numbers on our numerological journey through the Tarot: 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9=45…reduced: 4+5=9. Here we would find ourselves right back to the beginning.

Furthermore, multiplication by nine always produces digits that add up to nine; more symbolism of that "all is one" concept - completion/connection..."

http://www.tarotteachings.com/meaning-of-nine.html


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 10:14 AM

Nine inches please a lady.


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: pavane
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 10:47 AM

numerology = pseudoscience (aka total crap)

What is "a vibrational frequency of balance" supposed to mean?
Can anyone explain it?

"the vibrational frequency of the prime number doubles in power"
Frequency has nothing to do with "power" or "energy".

You can certainly double a frequency (make something vibrate twice as fast) as any TV engineer will confirm. And you can make a vibration more powerful. But you can't double the power of a "frequency".

And if you don't mean the mathematical concept of frequency, then you should call it something different to avoid confusion.

I doubt that the author of that phrase has ever heard of simple harmonic motion (a genuine mathematical description).

"It represents male and female equality".
Glad something does...

Believe it all if you like, (plenty of people believe in all kinds of nonsense anyway, like astrology, scientology, even alchemy, I suppose) but there is nothing rational, logical or sensible behind it.


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 11:16 AM

pavane, thanks for sharing.


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: pavane
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 11:58 AM

Just let me add a further analysis of one of the phrases quoted:

"the vibrational frequency of the prime number (i.e. 11) doubles in power"

"vibrational frequency" is understandable as an indication of how fast something is vibrating
"prime number" is clearly a mathematical concept, used correctly to describe the number 11
doubles is clearly a mathematical concept

So it is clear that the author intends this to be a statement of mathematical or scientific fact.

Such an assertion requires evidence, particularly if it is to be used to make other inferences.

You don't think so? What if I say "there are fairies at the bottom of my garden", or "I can get you a 20% return on your investment". Do you believe me, or expect some proof? Perhaps Madoff's investors should have asked for evidence!

So the author claims that prime numbers vibrate.
What evidence is cited for this?
Has anyone else observed this phenomenum?
What kind of sensor can be used?

He also claims that the number 11 vibrates differently.

If we understand him to mean that the FREQUENCY doubles, not the power, then
How fast does a prime number vibrate in its natural state - which one or ones have been measured?
Can anyone detect it or only the favoured few?

If he really DOES mean to say that FREQUENCY doubles in power. we must say that this concept is meaningless, and could only be written by someone scientifically illiterate.

Vibrations are measured in units of "cycles per time unit".
Power is defined as energy per unit time.
There is no power defined in a vibration frequency, so it cannot be doubled.

The conclusion is that the author is trying to hide his ignorance by wrongly using the language of science, and deliberately trying to fool his audience. Is this someone you would trust?

Alternatively, if the vibrations are the kind that the Beach Boys detected (Good Vibrations) then this is an alternative meaning of the word "Vibration" as "feeling", as in "Vibes", with no concept of frequency to be measured. In which case the language to describe them should not be mathematical.


Footnote:
Systems in which length (L), time (T), and mass (M) are taken as fundamental quantities are called absolute systems. In an absolute system force is a derived quantity whose dimensions are defined by Newton's second law of motion motion, the change of position of one body with respect to another. The rate of change is the speed of the body. If the direction of motion is also given, then the velocity of the body is determined; velocity is a vector quantity, having both magnitude and direction as ML/T2, in terms of the fundamental quantities. Pressure (force per unit area) then has dimensions M/LT2; work or energy (force times distance) has dimensions ML2/T2; and power (energy per unit time) has dimensions ML2/T3


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Apr 09 - 12:26 PM

parvane, everyone has the right to post as he or she wishes to on this forum except when doing so in such a manner that is frowned upon by the site's founder/owner and moderators.

If you like posting information on this thread or on another thread as you are doing, fine. But that information doesn't rock my boat. If anyone else wants to respond to you on this thread or elsewhere, so be it.

Different strokes for different folks-or different numbers for...Darn! I can't think of a rhyme for "numbers".

Well, anyway I think you get my drift.

Best wishes,

Azizi


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: pavane
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 02:13 AM

Azizi,

Yes, you are correct, and there is nothing personal or confrontational intended. I am just commenting the quotes you provided from a book.

No-one can FORCE anyone else to believe, though some are convinced they can, particularly religious organisations. You must make up your own mind, hopefully based on evidence. I was trying to establish what is the actual evidence for the statements above, and provide a balancing view based on real science.

As it happens, the whole of the world of computing, including the internet which we are using to communicate our views, is based on the scientific view of frequencies, not numerological principles!


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: GUEST,highlandman at work
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 03:30 PM

Fun thread, Azizi. Don't know how I missed it before.

2 comments: first, "Clementine" has another verse that goes
Light she was, and like a fairy
And her shoes were Number Nine;
Herring boxes without topses
Sandals were for Clementine.

For a long time I wondered what Number Nine Herring boxes were, until someone mentioned that when punctuated as above it makes a little more sense. As in Size Nine.

Second, as I recall using "Engine, Engine Number Nine" as a selection chant, the "out" line was quite variable. It was clear in my group of childhood friends that jimmying the number of letters in the "out" word, or not spelling it out, or interpolating "my mother says," etc., was rather expected, so that the chanter had the option of making the pick come out however he or she wanted. And for some reason (maybe we were all just follower-alongers) nobody ever seemed to object that this was "cheating," it just went with the game.

Cheers
-Glenn


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 03:56 PM

Hello, Glenn. Thanks for sharing that verse about darling Clementine whose shoe size rhymes with her name (I suppose that wasn't a coincidence but I still think that was a dig on (insult directed toward)so called big footed women).

Also, thanks for confirming that practice of changing how the person said that "out" part of "Engine Engine Number Nine" or another "choosing It" rhyme. I recall hearing a boy say something like "And you are not the one to be it" when he had in mind who he really wanted to be "it". This was in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania around 2007. I don't remember doing this when I was the one saying "Eenie Meenie Miney Mo" or some other elimination/choosing it rhyme when I was a child in Atlantic City, New Jersey in the 1950s.

But I was such a good kid that I wouldn't have even thought about "cheating".

:o)


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 08 Apr 09 - 04:10 PM

Oops! I see I wrote about that experience of the boy stretching that line earlier in this thread.

Sorry about that.

**

Here's an example of the number 99* from a thread that I just started on Yo Mama-Insults in songs & rhymes :

Brick Wall Water Fall (Example #1)
Brick wall waterfall boy/girl you think you no it all you dont i do so shh whith that Additude Your Mama your daddy your balled headed granny she 99 she thinks shes fine she going out whith frankinstine shes hip shes fat she needs a tic-tac not a tic not a tac but the hole six pack im sorry to be mean but she needs some listrine not a sip not a swallow but the hole bottle
-Timothy, 2/2/2006;
http://www.cocojams.com/taunting_rhymes.htm


*"99" is double the pleasure, double the fun. Wouldn't you say, pavane? Okay. Sorry. I'm just "joshing" you. When I'm in a more serious mood, I'll try to interpret what you wrote about absolute systems and Newton's second law of motion. But I think it's probably beyond my un-mathematical mind. And anyway for now, well, there's a song that goes "Girls just wanna have fun". And sometimes guys do too because sometimes it helps to take a break from thinking about and dealing with heavy duty stuff.

YouknowwhatImean?


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: pavane
Date: 09 Apr 09 - 02:05 AM

I am totally in favour of fun!


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 12:13 PM

Here's a link to a YouTube video of the handclap rhyme "Soul Sister Number Nine":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvGia9u1McM

-snip-

That video is a clip from the 2003 American movie School of Rock starring Jack Black. That movie is about a down on his luck rock musician who impersonates a fifth grade substitute teacher at a prep school. Initially, the lead character just lets the children have "free time" to do what they want to in his class, but eventually he gets them interested in the history and performance of rock music.

The poster of that YouTube video rachelarmstrong
(January 24, 2008) included the words to that rhyme on the video clip screen shot. The words she gave are:

Soul Sister Number Nine
Sock it to me one more time
Say Ungawa we got the power
Say Ungawa we got the power

Little Sally Walker's walking down the street
She didn't know what to do so she jumped in front of me
She said "go on girl, do your thing do your thing
go on, girl do your thing, do your thing. Stop!!

-snip-

As a (friendly) ammendment to that transcription, I hear the two chanters saying "Say Unn Ungawa. We got the powa. Say Unn Ungawa. We got the powa."

-snip-

Here's the comment I posted on that video page:

I loved watching that scene.

As an African American folkIorist let me note that "soul sister:#9/ungawa Black power" date from at least the late 1960s in African American communities, and the "Little Sally Walker/walkin down the street" rhyme is also from African American girls, though I don't believe it's as old as "ungawa" etc.

"Soul sister #9" rhyme (with "ah beep beep/wakin down the street") verse is usually a stand up partner handclap rhyme.& Little Sally Walker" is a circle game.

-snip-

Here's a link to another YouTube videos of that same rhyme:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWbVAbCwc_M

This clip is from the Philippines. The poster of that video clip ayrao7 (September 21, 2009) gave these words to that rhyme in her summary statement:

"soul sister number nine stuck it to me one more time said un, ungawa, we got the power said un, ungawa we got the power little sunny walker walking down the street she don't know , what to do
so she jump in front of me
and said go on girl do your thing,
do your thing,do your thing,
said go on girl do your thing, do your thing, stop!

-snip-

This example has the following folk etymology substitues: "stuck it to me" instead of "sock it to me" and "little sunny walker" instead of "Little Sally Walker".

For the folkloric record, in one reader comment I shared information about how the new "Sally Walker/walkin down the street" game is played in the USA. I shared information about the "original words". Hopefully, the poster won't think that I'm dissin her for her folk etymology substitutes. I'm not. I just thought she and other people might want to know what is most common form in the USA for those phrases.

I think it's likely that these rhymes are being spread as a result of that "School of Rock" movie.

It's interesting to see that these rhymes are being performed as handclap games instead of as circle/movement games.


*"Sock it to me" may be most widely known as part of Aretha Franklin's 1967 R&B hit song "Respect".


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 02:42 PM

1. You see me goin' down this track
and I'm never comin' back.
Next time you see me I'll be home.
Make my bed and light the light,
I'll be with you Monday night.
'Cause I'm nine hundred miles from my home.

Hmm. It occurs to me that guys heading for home after ramblin' always arrive on a Sunday or a Monday. Does anybody else feel that way? I mean, who ever sang "I'll be with your Thursday night"?



2. There was a lady in the north
and none could find her merrow.
She was courted by nine gentlemen
and a ploughboy lad from Yarrow.


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: GUEST,natascha
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 11:22 AM

Soul Sister number nine
sock it to me one more time
said: U- Ungawa we got the power
said: U- Ungawa we got the power

Little sally walker
is walking down the street
she didnt know what she do
so she jumped in front of me
she said:go on,girl,do your thing,
do your thing, do your thing,
go on, girl, do your thing,
do your thing, STOP!!


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 01:58 PM

Thanks, GUEST,natascha for sharing your example of this rhyme.

**

It would be great if people sharing examples of playground rhymes would include where they learned it (city & state if in the USA, city/nation if outside the USA); when they first learned it (decade like 1990s or year such as 2003), and the age & gender of those who sing or chant this rhyme (such as girls, or girls & boys). For the folkloric record, it would also be interesting to know your race/ethnicity. And it would be great if people would include how the rhyme is performed (such as handclap game, jump rope rhyme, or circle singing game.)

Thanks!


Ms. Azizi


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: NormanD
Date: 15 Sep 11 - 01:19 PM


Try "Number Nine Train" by Tarheel Slim & Little Annie for one of the best African-Americam rockabilly songs around
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGHtBJoiV7E


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 12:22 AM

"Old Rueben" as sung by Wade Mainer, has the line "Number 9 had a wreck".
Both "Old Rueben" (Wade Mainer) and "If I Die a Railroad Man" (Tenneva Ramblers) have a verse like this:
"If I die a railroad man
You can bury me beneath the sand
Where I can hear old number 9
As she goes by"

Also, I recall "Engine engine number 9" as "Coming down Chicago line". I believe my aunt remembers it the same way. We both would have heard it in Southern California, her in the 1960s and me in the 1990s/2000s.


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: Mo the caller
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 04:49 AM

Old thread. Azizi is not around here so much nowadays to start new ones.

Numbers do have 'resonances' though not physically. They 'ring bells' and 'strike chords' in our minds. And As Azizi said further up the thread, what they mean depends on your origins and culture.

To me 9 perhaps represents incompleteness. Petrol prices are quoted as 139.99p to avoid saying one pound 40 pence. I can remember when shops charged three and eleven pence three farthings (i.e. a farthing less than four shillings, which sounded a lot more).

But trying to think of 9 songs & rhymes all I could come up with was
Nine Taylors make a man.

From my reading of Dorothy Sayers I gather that if a church bell was tolled 9 times it meant a man had died. May have been common knowledge when she was writing but not to me.


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 02:50 PM

Jimi Hendrix , if 6 were 9 .


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 09:16 AM

and Number 9 came roaring down the hill

The Runaway Train

T'was in the year of '89 on that old Great Western line,
When the winter wind was blowin' shrill,
The rails were froze, the wheels were cold, then the air brakes wouldn't hold,
And Number 9 came roaring down the hill -- oh!
The runaway train came down the track and she blew,
The runaway train came down the track and she blew,
The runaway train came down the track, her whistle wide and her throttle back,
And she blew, blew, blew, blew, blew.

The engineer said the train must halt and she blew,
The engineer said the train must halt and she blew,
The engineer said the train must halt -- he said it was all the fireman's fault,
And she blew, blew, blew, blew, blew.

The fireman said he rang the bell and she blew,
The fireman said he rang the bell and she blew,
The fireman said he rang the bell -- the engineer said "You did like h***!"
And she blew, blew, blew, blew, blew.

The porter got an awful fright and she blew,
The porter got an awful fright and she blew,
The porter got an awful fright -- he got so scared he near turned white,
And she blew, blew, blew, blew, blew.

A donkey was standing in the way and she blew,
A donkey was standing in the way and she blew,
A donkey was standing in the way and all they found was just his bray,
And she blew, blew, blew, blew, blew.

The conductor said there'd be a wreck and she blew,
The conductor said there'd be a wreck and she blew,
The conductor said there'd be a wreck and he felt the chills run up his neck,
And she blew, blew, blew, blew, blew.

The runaway train went over the hill and she blew,
The runaway train went over the hill and she blew,
The runaway train went over the hill and the last we heard she was going still,
And she blew, blew, blew, blew, blew.

By Robert E. Massey

http://www.poppyfields.net/poppy/songs/train.html


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Subject: RE: Number Nine In Songs & Rhymes
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 11:36 AM

Walter Pardon's Broomfield hill includes these verses

Then nine times did she go to the soles of his feet,
Nine times to the crown of his head;
And nine times she kissed his cherry-red lips
As he lay on his green mossy bed.

Then she took a gold ring from off of her hand,
And put that on his right thumb,
And that was to let her true love to know
That she had been there and was gone.

Then she took a gold ring from off of her hand
And placed it on his right thumb;
And that was to let her true love to know
That his lady had been there and gone.

Then nine times did she go to the crown of his head,
Nine times to the soles of his feet;
And nine times she kissed his cherry-red lips
As he lay on the ground fast asleep.

Walter described the number nine as "the witch's number"
Jim Carroll


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