UK payola (??)

Subject: UK payola (??)
From: folktheatre
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 10:45 AM

I just learned that a label I know (very well known) paid/pay a company to promote their releases on the radio and for a magazine cover CD. I guess you would call them a PR company... Anyway, isn't this just Payola? Isn't it illegal but legalised simply by cutting out the middleman? Does anyone know anything about this pertaining specifically to the UK?

Subject: RE: UK payola (??)
From: Wesley S
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 10:52 AM

Has the DJ been paid to play the recording? If not - it's not payola.

Subject: RE: UK payola (??)
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 10:56 AM

There are promotion people hired to "push" recordings. They are paid by the artist or record label to contact (sometimes pester) disc jockeys about new recordings and often selected cuts that they hope will gain attention.

There is nothing illegal about this, at least here in the U.S. and I would assume U.K.   A person is hired to promote a recording, but they are not paying off anyone responsible for insuring it would be played - the DJ, music director, station owner, etc.

Subject: RE: UK payola (??)
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 11:02 AM

"You cannot hope to bribe or twist
The honest British jounalist
But when you see what he will do
Unbribed, there's no occasion to"

I think this is the area we are operating in. Yes, large sums are used to promote artists, but most in ways that are not at all illegal. But, when the facts come out, they are somewhat shocking to idealistic folkies. Getting nominated for an award, for example, often comes with a substantial price tag. And a DJ playing a record will generally have been told to play it by someone. And the person who told him to play it may often have other than purely artistic reasons for making that decision!

Subject: RE: UK payola (??)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 11:05 AM

Not illegal at all. No question. Topic use Glass Ceiling, other people use other PR agencies. Some do it themselves.

Incidentally if anyone does want to go down the illegal road giving out cash or other inducements (holidays and real ale come to mind but there may be others) in return for airplay I have a programme called "Thanks Goodness It's Folk".

My listener and I are happy to talk to you.

Dave

Subject: RE: UK payola (??)
From: folktheatre
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 11:07 AM

Thanks. It's still a strange old world I guess. Paying someone to broker your artist or recording - to really do nothing much at all.

Subject: RE: UK payola (??)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 11:12 AM

Well, you can write press releases, send them out, build up contacts, pack and post records, etc. etc. or you can pay someone who knows what they are doing to do that for you.

I don't agree with daft publicity - and some of the stunts pulled off have been ludicrous (remember the northumbrian piper who needed 24 hour security to save her from the die hard Northumbrian pipers 'cos she was playing non-folk music?)

But I have to tell you many artists do employ publicists (or the record companies do it for them).

Subject: RE: UK payola (??)
From: Banjiman
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 11:25 AM

Folkiedave........how about a pint as an illegal inducement then?

Paul

Subject: RE: UK payola (??)
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 11:26 AM

I employ a hard-nosed, brown-nosed, pushy, flashy, plugger bugger to do all my promotion. I wish I didn't have to, because it goes against all my principles - but the rules of the game are such that without him I'd never have even got started in this folk lark. Actually he's quite a nice guy once you get to know him, and (weird, this)... he has the same birthday, and stranger still - even same name as me ;-)

(Dave - new album 'The Whisper' now in production - mostly to be recorded in Alderney starting next week, featuring all four Pipers Sons, plus a 16-year-old called Ned Darlington who's one of the best guitarists I've ever heard, Matt Nelson on sax, Mudcat's The Doctor (Peter Taylor) on marching drum and voice, and, best of all - Lady Vocals (including a duet with me on John Riley, and lead on a superb new Pipers Sons version of God Speed) by the stunning Alex Birch (who sings Where Strangers Stare on the Island Stories CD). I'll be sending a copy to TGIF via my tame plugger bugger as soon as).

Tom

See what I mean?

Subject: RE: UK payola (??)
From: folktheatre
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 11:37 AM

I don't mind publicity because that's inevitable obviously. I'd be stupid to think you shouldn't have that. It's just the thought that someone has HAD to pay someone to get their artist on the radio. End of story. That positively sucks in my book. What chances are there for me and my other brilliant friend musicians who are releasing our own records and booking our own gigs and trying our hardest to avoid all this. Sorry, I'm ranting. It's what the internet is for!

Subject: RE: UK payola (??)
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 11:57 AM

Well fT - it would be great if it wasn't necessary, and actually as far as folk radio shows go it isn't - because the people who run them are all absolutely wonderful about listening to (almost) everything (a herculean task), and playing what they like (and that's fact, not flattery). But in the areas where folk music interacts with mainstream media and the 'mass' market (a strange awkward nether world in my experience) then you have to play by their rules - and those have been shaped by market forces over time. It does mean that only people with money behind them (wherever it's come from) are able to benefit, but it was ever thus with 'product.' To a certain extent the Peter Principle applies. If you good enough (and willing to play ball) you'll get backing and the rest. If you're not, well, you have to do it yourself as best you can, like me.

Have you tried The Music Well (formerly RadioBritfolk)?

It does cost a little - but then things mostly do.

Tom

Subject: RE: UK payola (??)
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 12:16 PM

"It's just the thought that someone has HAD to pay someone to get their artist on the radio. End of story. That positively sucks in my book. What chances are there for me and my other brilliant friend musicians who are releasing our own records and booking our own gigs and trying our hardest to avoid all this."

It all depends on what level you wish to take it.

Suppose you have two owners of two differen restaurants. One owner hires someone to drum up publicity - run ads, hand out flyers, stand on a street corner to hand out sample.   The other owner just decides to let things fly and hope word of mouth gets around to build business.

I'm not sure why there seems to be an aversion to hiring someone for publicity. There doesn't seem to be any question of ethics.

Subject: RE: UK payola (??)
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 02:22 PM

The situation is very complex, and what is totally ethical to one person can seem very dodgy to others.There are number of grey areas...artists' agents who also run festivals for example, can easily generate conflicts of interest. And the ordinary mortal is not privy to infomation about, say, the outside business interests of those who decide which records go on radio playlists.Then there is the whole question of whether people who judge which artists win awards should be allowed to have business interests in said artists. Where there is money, there is always this kind of thing hovering around, it is a sad fact of life.

Subject: RE: UK payola (??)
From: folktheatre
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 05:36 PM

Oi! Ron! Are you trying to imply that I hang around waiting for word of mouth to work? Nope. I work really really hard to make sure I won't ever be part of a system that pays its way to the front.

And you're right Tom too that you can choose one or the other but, maybe it's cos I'm naive, this "life's not fair" attitude doesn't help. I'm learning slowly, whilst trying to promote my own release anyway I can without paying someone to play me on the radio etc etc, how artists are REALLY put into my hand through magazine reviews, cover cds, airplay and I'm thoroughly dissapointed and I intend to learn as much as I can in order to inform other artists about the 'delusions' they might well have. It's not all like this, obviously, but it's part of it ultimately. Cheers.

Subject: RE: UK payola (??)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 07:09 PM

Folkiedave........how about a pint as an illegal inducement then?

A pint? One pint? Uno? You think I would sell my soul for a pint of real ale?

Oh. go on then.................just the one you understand!!

Subject: RE: UK payola (??)
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 02:58 AM

"without paying someone to play me on the radio"

I think what you mean is 'paying someone to use their experience, time, energy and contacts to try to persuade people with suitable radio shows to play me on the radio, but only succeeding if the music fits with station policy.'

You might find the artist promotion and marketing section here useful. The page is about clubs but there are some good contacts.

Tom

Subject: RE: UK payola (??)
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 06:01 AM

folktheatre: it's not as bad as you think. Listen to what Tom Bliss has to say. Now, the last CD I made (" Trip to the Lakes" by the Boat Band) got wonderful reviews, got played on all sorts of radio shows (including the very mainstream Mike Harding Radio2 job) and got put on a couple of lists. OK, not Mercury or Radio2 Folk Awards, but it did fine for a very very mionority interest music. And believe me, nobody shelled out millions of quid to bribe the Director General of the BBC or Ian Anderson at fRoots to make all this happen. And the record was recorded in my front room, in the calssic style! So don't despair. Money certainly oils the wheels, that's for sure, but things can be achieved without.

Subject: RE: UK payola (??)
From: folktheatre
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 08:06 AM

Thanks Greg. I'll keep trying like you have in that case but that's good to know!

Subject: RE: UK payola (??)
From: Banjiman
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 10:05 AM

"A pint? One pint? Uno? You think I would sell my soul for a pint of real ale?

Oh. go on then.................just the one you understand!! "

Dave, would you like me to send you the pint or wait until next time I bump into you?

..........just hope you can deliver the goods (to your listener!) your end!!

Paul

Subject: RE: UK payola (??)
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 10:30 AM

" I work really really hard to make sure I won't ever be part of a system that pays its way to the front. "

It seems like your mind is set, regardless of whatever evidence can be shown to the contrary.   I admire your principles, but I hope you will keep in mind that principles need to be examined from time to time to insure that the reasoning is still valid.

Many artists hire outsiders for promotion for the simple reason that it frees them up from the tedious business that interferes with the creative side.   It takes time, resources and personal sacrifice to do "everything" that needs to be done.   Hiring someone who specializes in portions of that work is not selling out, and it is certainly NOT payola by any standard!!

Subject: RE: UK payola (??)
From: irishenglish
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 10:42 AM

Another thing to keep in mind is its not just radio where artists get promoted. When I worked at a record store just 2 or 3 years ago, the more promos a record label sent out for us employees, the more likely we were to play the CD. Now in terms of rock/pop, it was generally arrangements for the entire Tower Records chain as to pushing an album. But in my department, World Music, if the four of us in the dept. got promo copies, we would definitely feel the obligation to play it a bit more than other things. No one ever said to us-You must play it, or play it and I'll get you tickets to the concert if you do, but the more generous they were with the freebies, the more we played it.

Subject: RE: UK payola (??)
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 10:48 AM

'Sorry, I'm ranting. It's what the internet is for!'

I suppose, but another thing the Internet is for is sharing music. I don't know how many times I have visited the site for a performer or a band, only to find that the site offers no way to hear their music. Come on, if you want me to spend $20 on a concert or CD, at least you can give me a sample of what you're selling.

Recently I bought two CD's of country dance music from Amazon, and the reason I bought them is that I could hear a sample first.

You may not be able to afford a promoter, but at least you ought to take advantage of the Internet.

Subject: RE: UK payola (??)
From: folktheatre
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 11:43 AM

I do actually Leeneia and it's dead handy as I sell CDs fairly easily through this means. It's great innit? Very good. I've heard all sorts of fantastic artists through myspaces etc. I just don't want to impart my identity here. Thanks anyway! I've obviously tarnished my reputation on this board so far so I'll keep it a secret instead.... I'll keep on trying the old fashioned way by making my own CDs and selling them at gigs, promoting my own shows, making the flyers, booking the odd tour and helping out my local talented folkies of which there are very many.

Subject: RE: UK payola (??)
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 01:16 PM

FT - I don't think you've tarnished anything, old chum. You've merely stated some sincerely held views - and that's fine, innit? In anyone's book. Good luck, and giz a link to yer Myspace!

Subject: RE: UK payola (??)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 06:35 PM

Paul,

Hundreds of people have promised me pints by post - none ever arrived. I am suspicious about the local postman or they sent them loose.

I am off to follow in the footsteps of Paul MacCartney and perform for nothing in Canada - though I suspect he got better accommodation than I am going to get.

I only hope the separatists of Quebec don't have a down on me like they did on Macca, (he said brushing up his Orcadian Heritage).

Subject: RE: UK payola (??)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 06:40 PM

FT - you certainly have not done anything wrong in my book, except in a very minor way you may not have realised how some other people do things differently and commented on it.

I think others have done much the same thing.

Subject: RE: UK payola (??)
From: folktheatre
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 03:00 AM

Cheers.

Subject: RE: UK payola (??)
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 03:12 PM

Folkie Dave,

I owe you a pint by post... as I'm in Sheffield next Wednesday please tell me which street corner to leave it on...

Subject: RE: UK payola (??)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 04:34 PM

You are a lucky person being in Sheffield - especially as I am in Toronto Ontario!! No point in leaving the pint anywhere - not even behind a bar - they'll sup other people's beer faster than look at it.

Catch you next time though.