Chord Req: What exactly is a 'D9' ?

Subject: Chord Req: What exactly is a 'D9' ?
From: GUEST,Texas Guest
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 06:20 PM

Well, it's time once again to display my ignorance. I was reading a thread today where someone was asking for chords to a particular song and one of the chords that was given was a - D9.

I am self taught, don't read well enough to sight-read a tune on stage and really have little to no theory training, so... What is a
D9 chord? Is it any "D" chord with a 9th added, or is something in the "D" chord removed and the 9th added in its place? Where does the "9" come from - the "D" scale, perhaps?

These are things I should probably know, but don't; or, they are things that I know, but don't know that I know them - I've just been playing them and not knowing what they were. It just drives me nuts when I see chords written as a D9, or a D6 and I sit there asking myself - now what the hell is this? Clear me up folks. Thanks.

Subject: RE: Chord Req: What exactly is a 'D9' ?
From: Acorn4
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 06:41 PM

It's actually a chord mainly used in jazz,and for the purposes of most songs D7 will do adequately instead

To get it on a guitar-


With your index finger make a barre over the D,G,B, E strings under the fourth fret.

With the second finger make a second barre over the G, B and E strings just above the other barre below the fifth fret.

Bring your thumb around and barre the bass E and A strings under the fifth fret.

This, in effect, means that all the strings are barred under the fifth, except the D which is barred under the fourth.

Hope this explians it but it's a bit difficult to describe it verbally.

There are other jazzy ways of doing the chord, but this has the advantage that it is slideble, and once you can do the shape, you can get any ninth chord.

Subject: RE: Chord Req: What exactly is a 'D9' ?
From: Acorn4
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 06:45 PM

Oh, if you were plying it on a keyboard the notes would be :-

D/F#/A/C/E - in other words it's a seventh with a note added to it a ninth above the key note

Subject: RE: Chord Req: What exactly is a 'D9' ?
From: dj bass
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 06:47 PM

I'm assuming you're playing guitar. If so, play a C7 but up two frets. Or play D7 and play the top E string open. Basically a 9 chord is the root, 3rd, 5th, 7th and 9th (ie root + one), so D9 is D F# A C E (but not necessarily in that order. There are loads of chords sites on the interweb thingy. Google "guitar chords" or whatever instrument.

dj

Subject: RE: Chord Req: What exactly is a 'D9' ?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 07:29 PM

This:
http://www.8notes.com/guitar_chord_chart/D9.asp
Or This:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caterpillar_D9

Subject: RE: Chord Req: What exactly is a 'D9' ?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 07:52 PM

Geeez, all this time I thought a D9 was just a big 'dozer.

Subject: RE: Chord Req: What exactly is a 'D9' ?
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 09:55 PM

If you look at the letters: D F# A C E, D9 is really a D chord- D F# A, and an Am chord, A C E stuck together--

Subject: RE: Chord Req: What exactly is a 'D9' ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 10:25 PM

Often the chord symbol D9 indicates an ordinary root position D chord with a top E in stead of an F#

Subject: RE: Chord Req: What exactly is a 'D9' ?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 01:18 AM

Speaking as a keyboard muso, this is the normal sort of
D9 I remember from my childhood. :-)

Subject: RE: Chord Req: What exactly is a 'D9' ?
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 02:54 AM

As mentioned above, a D9 is a D dominant seventh chord with the "ninth" interval of the scale (which happens to be the same as the second, if we're using tempered tuning) added, so it's D F# A C E.

Altered chords are most often (but not always) dominant seventh chords, so the most common notation leaves out the 7 (as it usually leaves out the "dom.").

11th and 13th chords, e.g., D11 and D13 are also dominant seventh chords with the 11th == 4th or the 13th == 6th interval of the scale added _plus_ the ninth, so D11 == D F# A C E G and D13 == D F# A C E B. Please note that the 13th chord does not include the 11th == 4th!

A sixth chord, e.g., D6 or Dm6, however, is not a dominant seventh chord and does not include the seventh. Both contain the major sixth, not the minor sixth, so D6 == D F# A B and Dm6 == D F A B.

The alterations (9th, #9th, b9th, 11th, #11th, 13th) will generally sound better in the upper register, so if they're not playable there, it is sometimes better to leave them out when playing the guitar. Any of them can be replaced by a plain dom. seventh chord, however, one should watch out for chords with alterations that are really other names for the third, fourth or fifth intervals of the given chord. For example, a #11 is the same note as a b5. With 11th chords, one might want to leave out the third, depending on the voicing, especially if one can depend on a bass player filling in the harmony. It's usually best to keep the root in the bass, or alternate it with the fifth, the third, or another interval, in order to keep the harmony clear. Otherwise, the chord will sound like some other chord. Please bear in mind that every chord has twelve names; more, actually, because of flats, sharps, double flats and double sharps. One could continue to triple flats and sharps, but I don't think it really pays.

Having said all that, the ultimate judge is your ears.

The best book on chords I know is Ted Greene's _Chord Chemistry_.

Subject: RE: Chord Req: What exactly is a 'D9' ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 04:44 AM

What then does one call ADADE, rather than ADACE? It is commonly played, as is the equivalent A chord of EAEABE.

Subject: RE: Chord Req: What exactly is a 'D9' ?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 07:28 AM

As far as fingering 9th chords go, I usually demonstrate it like this:

Start with a regular B7 chord fingered X21202. Then lift your little finger and flatten your 3rd finger down to form a "mini barre" covering the first three strings. The resultant chord (X21222) is B9. Slide it up a fret and it's C9. Slide it two more, it's D9 etc.

There are other fingerings that may work better in individual tunes, but the X21222 chord shape will do the job 99% of the time.

Subject: RE: Chord Req: What exactly is a 'D9' ?
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 07:34 AM

It depends. ADADE could be an Asus4 chord, i.e., A suspended fourth, which will probably resolve to an A maj. triad. If it's a D chord, than it would be a D add 9/A without a third. One often writes "add 9" if the ninth is present and it's not a dominant seventh chord. The bass note of the chord is often given after a slash, if it's not the root. However, I don't really like this. I don't write "add 9" myself, but put any additional intervals as subscripts. If an interval that's usually there is missing, I'll write it as a subscript with a diagonal stroke from the upper right to the lower left. In the case of ADADE, interpreted as a D chord, or EAEABE interpreted as an A chord, I'd do this for the third.

Subject: RE: Chord Req: What exactly is a 'D9' ?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 11:28 AM

Subject: RE: Chord Req: What exactly is a 'D9' ?
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 11:31 AM

Bee-dubya-ell wrote:
"[...] the X21222 chord shape [...]"

This is a nice one. "2" on the sixth string is the fifth of the chord, so one can alternate it with the root on the fifth string when picking.

One can also use a barre on the upper fret and play a dom.7 b9 chord. The ninth is on the second string, so playing it one fret lower gives one the b9. One fret higher (without the barre) gives one a 7 #9. This is the chord (and I'm virtually certain the voicing) of the intro to Jimi Hendrix' "Foxy Lady". The fifth is on the first string, so playing it one fret below or above the "2" will give one a flatted and a sharped fifth, respectively.

A useful fact is that a diminished seventh chord can be considered to be a dom. 7 b9 chord without the root. So, C dim 7 == C Eb Gb Bbb == B 7 b9 without the B == B D# F# A C == D 7 b9 (no D) == D F# A C Eb == F 7 b9 (no F) == Ab 7 b9 (no Ab).

If one is ever looking for a way to modulate, diminished seventh chords provide (at least) one way of doing it.

Subject: RE: Chord Req: What exactly is a 'D9' ?
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 11:35 AM

Actually, I don't dislike the slash and then the bass note of the chord when it's correct and I do use it. I don't like them when they are incorrect, and sometimes printed music is incorrect. There are also often different legitimate interpretations.

I don't like "add 9, add 11", etc., but that's just a matter of taste. There's nothing wrong with them, I just prefer writing the intervals as subscripts.

Subject: RE: Chord Req: What exactly is a 'D9' ?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 11:35 AM

'Where does the "9" come from - the "D" scale, perhaps?'

Yes, that's it. Play a D scale, and it goes

D E F# G A B C# D E ...
1 2 3   4 5 6 7   8 9 ....

So the '9' is an E. Why don't they just call it a 2? Because the 2, being so close to a D bass note, would be too dissonant.

To tell you the truth, we used to play a beautiful Welsh song, Lisa Lan (or was it Lon?) that called for a D9 chord. We found that if the accompanists played a D chord while the melody instruments played the C notes, then that was all the ninism you'd ever want. (I mean for that particular tune.)

Good luck with your song.

Subject: RE: Chord Req: What exactly is a 'D9' ?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 11:54 AM

"Ninism"?

Nice coinage, leeneia!

Subject: RE: Chord Req: What exactly is a 'D9' ?
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 12:02 PM

Isn't a D9 an inversion of an Am6?

Subject: RE: Chord Req: What exactly is a 'D9' ?
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 01:16 PM

Am6 == __F#_A C E F#
D9 == D_F#_A_C_E_F#

Nope. No D in an Am6 chord (it would be the 4th). Close, though.

Subject: RE: Chord Req: What exactly is a 'D9' ?
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 01:25 PM

Sorry, the notes were supposed to line up. Should have remembered that spaces are "pulled together".

There are lots of interesting (and sometimes amazing) chord "synonyms". An easy pair is vi min 7 == I 6, e.g., A min 7 == C 6 == A C E G. Am is, of course, the relative minor of C and is the sixth interval in the C major scale, so I write I and vi. I do actually write this a lot; on sheet music that I want to transpose. For example, the diatonic chords for the major scale can be written like this:

I maj 7 --- ii min 7 --- iii min 7 --- IV maj 7 --- V 7 --- vi min 7 --- vii min 7 b5 --- I maj 7

It is very worthwhile knowing this by heart, so that one can rattle it off without thinking, as well as the circle of fourths and circle of fifths. And I am not one who goes in for learning things by heart without good reason.

I use some symbols that aren't on the keyboard and wouldn't be displayed properly everywhere, anyway, such as a triangle for the maj. 7th, a circle with a diagonal through it for the min 7 b5, etc.

Subject: RE: Chord Req: What exactly is a 'D9' ?
From: kendall
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 01:27 PM

So, what do you call it when you play the D in the regular position and your little finger on the first string in the 5th fret?
When you drop the 6th string down to D it makes a rather pleasing sound.Of course, it doesn't fit every time, so it can't replace the D.

Subject: RE: Chord Req: What exactly is a 'D9' ?
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 01:36 PM

Actually, if I can be allowed to be a little pedantic, if we're just talking about the notes of a chord, two chords aren't really "inversions" of one another even if they have the same notes, because the term "inversion" refers to particular voicings and not just the notes.

So, "C E G", "E G C", and "G C E" are all inversions of a C triad, but not "C G E", because of the gap between the C and the G, where an E would fit. Many chords on a guitar are not inversions in the sense of a voicing produced by means of a procedure where one takes a chord in "closed position" with the root in the bass, removes the bass note, replaces it with the same note an octave above, and then does the same thing for each successive bass note until one has the original voicing, an octave higher.

Subject: RE: Chord Req: What exactly is a 'D9' ?
From: Acorn4
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 01:38 PM

That's just a different position of a D chord, but it leaves out the F#, so it is ambiguous and can be either major or minor.

CLEVER INNIT?

Subject: RE: Chord Req: What exactly is a 'D9' ?
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 01:43 PM

kendall wrote:
"So, what do you call it when you play the D in the regular position and your little finger on the first string in the 5th fret?
When you drop the 6th string down to D it makes a rather pleasing sound.Of course, it doesn't fit every time, so it can't replace the D."

Do you mean the D maj chord that looks like this?

__0___
___X_X
____X_

The first string has the F#, which is the third, so you're doubling the fifth and eliminating the third. It has no third, so it's neither major nor minor. I notate it as D with a subscripted 3 that's crossed-out, as above. Some people deny that it's a chord and call it, um, something different. A ditone or something.

This chord (or whatever) is used frequently in Renaissance music, e.g., John Dowland.

I like the sound, too, and use it fairly often.

Subject: RE: Chord Req: What exactly is a 'D9' ?
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 02:59 PM

Okay, I have to wait 20 minutes for my bus, so here are a few more ninth chords:

"R" is for root. This is like the "E" form on the open strings.

R-X-X-
---X--
-X---X

This one's like the "A" form on the open strings. The R on the fifth string should be played at some point, either before or after the X on the fifth string, or both, in order to make the harmony clear. Otherwise, it's likely to sound like some other chord, unless you've got a bass player.

XR-X-X
------
-XX-X-


The same applies to this one. It's like the "D" form on the open strings:

--R---
----X-
--XX-X

The same applies to this one, too. The root is quite high, and the X on the fourth string is the fifth, so again, one should make it clear what the harmony is. One way of doing this is to play it on the accented beats, but this is far from a hard-and-fast rule.

--XRX-
-----X
---X--

Here's the one similar to the one discussed above, but with the root on the sixth string:

-X--X-
R-X--X

And that's all seven of the basic forms. With them, one can play ninth chords in every key all over the neck.

I really should proofread this, but I have to get ready to leave.
The characters don't line up well, but they will if a fixed-width font is used. Sorry, no time to find a better solution.

Subject: RE: Chord Req: What exactly is a 'D9' ?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 03:05 PM

D9 is a network of international spies, hitmen, and agent provocateurs - partially funded by the CIA, partially funded by SMERSH......

this communication is coded top secret and will self destruct in ten seconds and arrghhhh.....!

Subject: RE: Chord Req: What exactly is a 'D9' ?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 03:43 PM

Piers Plowman on a different machine.

No, it's not the seven basic forms, but it's sort of related. There are seven basic forms for playing the major scale and many other scales. The most common chord forms don't quite match up, but there is a relationship, which I can't go into right now, but will do so another time, unless I've put everybody to sleep already (and maybe even if I have).

Subject: RE: Chord Req: What exactly is a 'D9' ?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 05:39 PM

I made a mistake when I wrote (above) 'We found that if the accompanists played a D chord while the melody instruments played the C notes, then that was all the ninism you'd ever want.'

That 'C' should have been an 'E.'

Glad you like my word 'ninism,' PoppaGator. It is, of course, a neologism based on 'sevenism,' which is the use of chords with sevenths in them.
========
weelittledrummer, I think you are thinking of M1.

The other D9, the D9 Caterpillar, isn't musical at all.

Subject: RE: Chord Req: What exactly is a 'D9' ?
From: GUEST,Texas Guest
Date: 24 Jul 08 - 08:25 PM

Well, once again, Catters - thanks for the input. I think it's about time I delve into some theory. Again, thanks to all. tg

Subject: RE: Chord Req: What exactly is a 'D9' ?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 12:49 AM

"The other D9, the D9 Caterpillar, isn't musical at all"

Ah - but unlike the musical instruments played by some folkies, you CAN tune it.... :-P

Subject: RE: Chord Req: What exactly is a 'D9' ?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 01:06 AM

""C E G", "E G C", and "G C E" are all inversions of a C triad, but not "C G E", because of the gap between the C and the G, where an E would fit"

"In music theory, the word inversion has several meanings. There are inverted chords, inverted melodies, inverted intervals, and (in counterpoint) inverted voices. The concept of inversion also plays a role in musical set theory."

and

"Third inversions exist only for chords of four or more tones, such as 7th [& 9th etc] chords. In a third-inversion chord, the 7th of the chord is in the bass position. For example, a C major 7th chord in third inversion consists of B in the bass position, with C, E and G above it— being intervals of a 2nd, 4th and 6th above the (inverted) bass of B, respectively."

There are also "Inverted intervals" - which can slightly negate Piers' pure point about "C G E" not being an inversion of a C major chord. Interestingly too, in full score Orchestral Score Music Notation (and [Big] Band Score too!), the "C G E" of a C major chord can be shared across different instruments in different octaves to get particular timbres... :-)

There are also further concepts such as "Inversional equivalency &
Musical set theory" and "Counterpoint" related.... :-)

Subject: RE: Chord Req: What exactly is a 'D9' ?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 01:11 AM

Oops...

also

"In the theories of Rameau (1722), chords in different positions were considered functionally equivalent. However, theories of counterpoint before Rameau spoke of different intervals in different ways,"... etc

Subject: RE: Chord Req: What exactly is a 'D9' ?
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 05:19 AM

Tune your guitar CGDGCD - stick a capo on the 2nd fret - place your fingers 002400 - strum very slowly - luxuriate in that blissful ambience.

Subject: RE: Chord Req: What exactly is a 'D9' ?
From: kendall
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 07:22 AM

I also like to use this position: Like the A7th, but little finger on the first string in the 5th fret.Never cared for the sound of the standard A7th, too "bluesy".

Subject: RE: Chord Req: What exactly is a 'D9' ?
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 07:14 AM

Do you mean this one:

--XXX_
-----X

and replacing it with this one?

--XXX-
-----
-----
-----X

The second chord isn't a seventh chord, because the only seventh was on the first string and (if this is what you meant), you've replaced it with the root. (Of course, the open A and E strings can be played as well.)

There's always this A7:

00-0-0
------
--X-X-

That's E, A, E, G, C#, E.

Subject: RE: Chord Req: What exactly is a 'D9' ?
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 08:04 AM

You can always play a maj. triad to replace a dom. 7th chord (without a b5 or #5) if you don't like the sound of the seventh.

What is the point of the seventh? It increases the sense of tension. Why? Because people think it does. How does it work? It "resolves" to the third or the fifth of the tonic. So now we're talking about "voice leading" which, in a sense, is what this is all in aid of. For example:

G --> G (it stays where it is)
B --> C
D --> C or --> E (take your pick)
F --> E or --> G (take your pick)

In many kinds of music, composers and players strive for "smooth voice leading", which most will agree is a nice sound, but not the only nice sound.

A guitar provides many ways of getting from one chord to another and there are many different sounds that one can get from a single chord change. A good place to start is a cadence, i.e., subdominant, dominant, tonic, e.g., F G C or Dm7 G7 C (the Dm7 has a subdominant function here --- if you like the functional approach to harmony). Plenty to experiment with here, if anyone wants to play this sequence in various ways paying attention to the voice leading. I recommend switching keys to prevent boredom and definitely use alterations!

What really helped me to learn my chords, scales and arpeggios was playing "chord melodies", i.e, playing a melody and finding voicings for the harmony with the melody on top. The chords will tend to fall into a pattern, as mentioned above.

Subject: RE: Chord Req: What exactly is a 'D9' ?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 09:06 AM

K9 is the computer dog in Doctor Who. Its simply a case of mathematically progressing backwards until you reach D9......you will find D9 is one of the largest planets in the Ursa Major galaxy.

Theres a folk festival there next week - no money involved, but one of the locals reckons you can sleep in a black hole. The inhabitants all have three heads - so the harmonies should be something else.

Subject: RE: Chord Req: What exactly is a 'D9' ?
From: Padre
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 06:40 PM

I thought a D-9 was a new Martin guitar, half the size of a D-18

Subject: RE: Chord Req: What exactly is a 'D9' ?
From: kendall
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 07:21 PM

"Can you read music"?
"Not enough to hurt my playing."

Subject: RE: Chord Req: What exactly is a 'D9' ?
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 03:02 PM

kendall wrote:

'"Can you read music"?
"Not enough to hurt my playing."'

There is some truth to this, although I think it's better to be able to read music than not to be able to. However, literally nothing in this thread requires the ability to read music!

Subject: RE: Chord Req: What exactly is a 'D9' ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 04:24 PM

guest sminky said,Tune your guitar CGDGCD - stick a capo on the 2nd fret - place your fingers 002400 - strum very slowly - luxuriate in that blissful ambience.
yes well there is another easier ninth chord than that, place your fingers,oo2ooo.in fact000000,is a ninth chord in this tuning,a modal ninth.Dick Miles