BS: Glasgow earthquake!

Subject: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 03:38 AM

Another chapter in the sad tale of "Tony Blair's Legacy" unfolds as predicted on Mudcat.

Scottish Nationalists have taken one of the "safest" Labour seats in the country.
Glasgow East a deprived area, with huge numbers of long term unemployed, health issues on a massive scale, life expectancy of 62 and wholesale dependency on benefits, has turned against the Labour Party for the first time in my memory.

The change has been described as a political earthquake which has moved off the Richter Scale.

But....for the more politically sensitive among us, the tremors were felt before the start of the Iraq War, when people first began to realise what the Labour Party had become.
The shocks became stronger as Blair was forced to leave office and electorate's disgust with the whole corrupt and hypocritical Labour machine became apparent.

Over a year ago Mr Blair toured the world in search of a "Legacy".
I said then that his "legacy" would be as "The man who caused the break up of the UK". This now seems to behappening, with the SNP poised to make massive gains in the next election.

It would be easy to feel sorry for Prime Minister Brown, who is reaping what has been sown by Blair, but never forget Brown was as much a part of the "New Labour Project" as Blair, and supported him in his Iraqi adventure.

When the electorate turn against a government, that government is finished....this has happened to Labour, but weep no tears for them, they have been the architects of their own misfortunes

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 03:46 AM

You may be right. But look at Thatch, who never won a by election but kept coming back. mainly due to the Kinnock/Foot factor, it has to be said.

I hope its not the end of Labour, cos that means a new start for the tories and the Ulster Unionists.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 03:54 AM

Sorry Al...They've gone...Finished....Kaputt...They are an ex-Party.

I think the Party will disintegrate....Maybe re-form as a "left of centre outfit.   No matter, the earthquake is about to move South.
The old Parties ..even the Tories have had their day.

Exciting Times Eh!!

Keep well my friend.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Stu
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 04:26 AM

"But....for the more politically sensitive among us, the tremors were felt before the start of the Iraq War, when people first began to realise what the Labour Party had become."

Amen - it was the great deception of 1997 and I would say most of us were taken in by it.

When it became clear that Socialist principles had been abandoned and we were left with just another form of Thatcherism it was most depressing. That said, we did get the minimum wage and some degree of social reform, but big business still drives so much policy making that should be aimed at making peoples lives better.

I really hope you're right Ake - we need some proper left of centre politicians back in the mainstream to balance the folly of unregulated capitalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 04:59 AM

Congratulations to the SNP, every kick that can be delivered to Gordon of Cartoon's shambolic Nu-Labour Government, the better.

"Glasgow Earthquake" Akenaton announces, as does MSM in the UK, rather over-eggs the situation. What was seen in Glasgow was a mid term By-Election protest vote that signifies very little.

The SNP will still not rush to any referendum on independence because they know exactly what the result would be.

Here is the result in full:

John Mason, SNP - 11,277
Margaret Curran, Labour - 10,912
Davena Rankin, Conservative - 1,639
Ian Robertson, Lib Dem - 915
Frances Curran, Scottish Socialist Party - 555
Tricia McLeish, Solidarity - 512
Dr Eileen Duke, Scottish Greens - 232
Chris Creighton, Independent - 67
Hamish Howitt, Freedom 4 Choice - 65
Turnout 42.25%

SNP share of the vote = 43.08%

If turnout was only 42.25% at 26,174 then 61,950 were elligible to vote. So out of the voters in the constituency the SNP support amounts to 18.2% of the electorate. Voter turn out 42.25% which means 57.75% of the electorate couldn't even be bothered to vote - Hardly a ringing endorsement - certainly no "Eartquake".

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 05:35 AM

When Mrs Thatcher was asked recently what her greatest triumph was, she replied "New Labour"
                Bye bye Nanny state.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 11:45 AM

As "akenaton" stated initially, the East End of Glasgow has been returning Labour politicians since the days of Maxton, Wheatley and Shinwell - and is still "one of the most deprived areas in Britain", although there have been several Labour administrations in the last century, and, with regard to local/Council politics, a virtual Labour monopoly. Not exactly a strong reason for continuing to vote for Labour, or New Labour as it's been called in a rebranding exercise. One of the best leaflets of the campaign showed a photograph of Gordon Brown with another politician he greatly admires; it was issued by the Scottish National Party, and of course the other politician was Thatcher. One of the most significant things Brown ever said was an impromptu reply to some journalist who, in the early days of the current "war against terrorism", when Brown was Chancellor, asked how much the war would cost. Instantly, Brown replied, "as much as it takes"; perhaps the video clip is still available. Had anyone asked how much would be spent on health care, education, &c., it wouldn't be long before familiar phrases about "financial prudence" and "prioritization of finite resources" were trotted out; but you would wait long enough before any politician would say "as much as it takes". That's the calibre of a person who makes it to a top position. Hope I live to see Scotland regain the kind of pride and self-respect that comes of the kind of independence every other nation has as an unquestioned right; here, you have to argue for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 06:53 PM

The Glaswegians voted for the most left-wing candidate who stood a chance of winning, naturally enough. Not much comfort for the Tories in this result.

The obvious card for Labour to play in this situation is to bring in electoral reform with a single transferable vote. That's the only way to bring out the voters who can't see much significant difference between New Labour and New Tory, and could give a good chance of a hung parliament with a centre left majority.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 03:28 AM

How do you factor Scottish independence into that McGrath?

Independence within five years seems inevitable and where would that position an English/Welsh Labour party?

No, political slight of hand can't fix this one, everyone I speak to (and this is borne out by election results), just want Labour out of power. Most feel used and ashamed of what was done by Blair and his cabinet.
"The war" is still the main reason that people want them gone, but there are all the other disgraces...."Cash for honours"..."Cheriegate"
"Presidential politics", "Sleaze on a vast scale" (worse than the last Tory govt, but more cleverly carried out)"
"Hypocrisy" (Abbott, Jowell and many others)
People have realised that Labour no longer speaks for the under-priviliged and that they are even worse than the Conservatives when in power........(Oh they give a little....a minimum wage that might just keep us from starving, but none of the political parties would allow us to starve to death!....That would be bad PR), but the damage they have done to the cause of "Socialism" is very great.
Hypocrisy has always been the "Achilles heel" of the Left and the New Labour Project has made that hypocrisy apparent to everyone.
Who would have thought that a Labour MP of thirty years standing could be banished from the party for daring to speak against war.

I hope that here in Scotland, we can make a new begining....not Scotland.com or Scotland Ltd, but real freedom for our people that others may wish to follow. Time will tell.

As for you Southerners, I'm afraid all you have left is the power of prayer.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 03:46 AM

'a minimum wage that might just keep us from starving, but none of the political parties would allow us to starve to death!....'

well that's wrong they both would, and have done.

however theres a certain sang froid about the social engineering done by the radical right in my lifetime - which ought to send shivers down the spine of anybody not super rich.

And what exactly does Cameron stand for? Like Thatcher, you won't think to ask til its too late.

I was talking to an old friend and confirmed tory yesterday. He said he knows Cameron will win the next election. He says women vote for the best looking guys - they voted for Blair, they'll vote for Cameron.

Just thought I'd let you know the latest tory thinking. Boy are they feeling confident!

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 03:57 AM

Al...Cameron stands for exactly what Blair/ Brown stand for.

The continuation of a social/economic system which makes the rich, richer and the poor, poorer.
Some of them might not (deep in their hearts), want it to be that way, but they KNOW (deep in their hearts), that it IS that way!

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 05:02 AM

Cameron, of course, the product of generations of power an exploitation wants to make old Etonians richer than the rest of us for ever, and for the rest of us to do as we are ordered by our betters. At present he is, as a politician, lying in order to get elected.

Blair was simply a carpetbagger.

Brown in one sense is a prisoner of the machine. He may have some socialist instincts but has become boxed in to the orthodoxy of greed amongs voters.

The real problem here is whether there is a greater chance of social justice under the New Labour party or whether like chickens at Christmas we want to put the Etonians back in charge of the slaughterhouse.

What a shame Bob Marshall-Andrews is retiring.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Stu
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 09:29 AM

All of this simply goes to to show the dire state of UK politics.

All the main parties lack a coherent ideology that goes beyond unregulated capitalism and this is why modern politics has lost the trust of most people. Turning your electorate into consumers might have seemed like a good idea when taking your inspiration from Thatcher's brutal monetarist policies, but this bid to attract the middle classes into the New Labour fold has backfired badly.

What Glasgow East has demonstrated is Labour have gone so far down the road of Thatcherite free market economics they have effectively alienated their core voters - the less well off who still believe in socialist policies they thought they were getting when electing Labour in 1997.

This along with the rush to war at side of a right-wing American Neocon puppet and the subsequent betrayal of the trust of the UK electorate when the entire debacle was found to be based on a pack of half-truths and lies has damaged Labour so much they will probably loose the next election to one of the most policy-deficient Tory parties ever seen (in fact, until Thatcher dies this is likely to remain the state of the party as they cannot seem to escape her not inconsiderable shadow).


"People have realised that Labour no longer speaks for the under-priviliged and that they are even worse than the Conservatives when in power"

I doubt if the men of Clydeside, Steelos, Bilston Glen or the Yorkshire coalfields would agree with this Ake. The minimum wage itself was no mean feat to introduce, and provides some protection for those in the lowest paid jobs. They have introduced devolved government in Wales and Scotland and were instrumental in facilitating the stopping of the war in the North of Ireland (remember Mo Mowlem visiting the Maze to persuade the hard-line Loyalists to sign up to the peace process - a Tory would never have had the courage to do that).

We need a return to the politics of principle, and the rebuilding of ideologies that can take us forward as a society, for the benefit of all. What a shame Tony Benn has retired.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 10:03 AM

Largely agreed

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: DougR
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 02:01 PM

Many of us in the US believe that with the election of Sarkozy in France and Merkel in Germany, both countries have turned to the right a bit. Certainly relations between the Bush administration and the leaders of both countries are much better than they were with the previous left-wing leaders.

Any chance Great Britain may be turning a bit more right?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 03:01 PM

How far would you suggest?

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 04:17 PM

Or what? You'll send a gunboat?

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 05:15 PM

How do you factor Scottish independence into that McGrath

Obviously another reason to vote SNP. And I'd vote for independence in a referendum, if I lived in Scotland - but I doubt if all their voters would. Though if the Tories win the next Westminster Election that will obviously help the SNP when it comes to the referendum.

And all this should make it crystal clear that sticking to the present electoral system for Westminser makes no kind of sense for Labour. There's probably a potential longterm natural anti-Tory majority in the country (even with Scotland gone), but that was true throughout the Thatcher years, and it didn't stop her carving society into pieces.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 06:14 PM

Not as simple as that, Doug. The Labour Party has moved to the right, and lost support in the process. The Tories have moved leftwards, at least in rhetoric) which is all that matters for an opposition party can, so that there's nothing to choose between the two, and that has helped them gain credibility. The Scot Nats are well to the left of either, so this Glasgow election is in no way a move to the right.

And all of them, Labour, Tories or Scot Nats, are what you would be likely to denounce as far left liberals if they were in the States. (Which would also, of course, be true of Merkel and Sarkozy.)

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: DougR
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 06:23 PM

Thanks, McGrath, for treating my question seriously, and civally.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 07:02 PM

Yeh but the thing is Doug - politics in France are a great deal more extreme than over here.

Whereas the the USAF has bases with nuclear weapons in this country. When they went to bomb Gaddafi - France wouldn't even let the planes that set off from England use French airspace. We are a lot more right wing than France - our right wing does get elected. But their right wing is less significant and scary - they're like National Front almost fascist party. Very nationalistic. They don't really expect to get elected.

Our right wing has two parts to it - both contained in the Tory party and both for the most part - respectful of the democratic process (which figures because they are quite popular and DO get elected). There is an anti European old guard and a radical right. Its an odd mixture - you never know exactly where you are with them.

They stand for tax breaks and lots of perks for the stinking rich and everything else is pretty much negotiable.

Both main English parties are strong believers in shadowing and supporting American foreign policy.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 08:17 PM

"Both main English parties are strong believers in shadowing and supporting American foreign policy."

That is also true, to a considerable extent, of Canada's government...although it is far less to the right politically speaking than the USA. At present, over 75% of Canadians would vote for Obama, not McCain...and we are in Afghanistan despite the fact that the majority of our public would prefer that we were not.

The reason for that is simple. Our government doesn't really serve the Canadian people, it serves its corporate financial backers, and they are the same people whom the British and American governments serve.

Elections are held to give people the impression that their opinion still matters. It doesn't matter much. The party machines don't serve the public either, you see, but they blow off a great deal of hot air trying to act as if they do, (and I'm sure that most of their party members at the lower levels innocently believe that stuff too). They will promise you anything when they want your vote. ;-) Once elected, they'll do something else entirely, because they don't work for you. They'll do what they had planned to do anyway, but what they didn't bother mentioning to you when they were courting your votes...and you won't be able to stop them, because once they're in...they're in till the next election. So you'll finally get disgusted and vote them out, and then the other corporate servant party will do the very same thing to you...in a slightly different manner, perhaps, but essentially the same thing.

And once again you'll get blindsided. That's what happened to people in the UK when they elected Tony Blair's government.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 09:18 PM

'And once again you'll get blindsided. That's what happened to people in the UK when they elected Tony Blair's government. '

I don't think so really. The electable Labour leaders have all been pretty right wing. Wilson used to get the odd rush of blood to the head - but his critics always complained of him as 'the galloping pragmatist' - making up policies to suit the circumstances rather than from deeply held belief.

The left wing always say they've been sold out, but the lessons of history are there on the History Channel every day of the week. Europe is undependable as an ally. By and large,(with a few glitches like Suez) America has been in our corner - and probably we owe our survival and loyalty to them. The English are a very conservative electorate - Euro sceptic, and they recognise the value of the American alliance.

Oddballs like Kinnock and Foot stood no chance, even with only an unpopular government of incompetent Thatcherite lickspittles to defeat.

If you vote Labour and they get in. You have the status quo but with some humanitarian depth in their vision. Nobody thinks voting Labour is voting for the red revolution. Just some Americans!

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Jim McLean
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 04:59 AM

On the question of hypocrisy, I wrote the following in the late 1960s in support of the SNP.


The Scottish MP: words Jim MacLean tune: Off to Dublin in the Green

Chorus:
I'm off to London in the morn, in the morn
In Westminster I will be
And I'll leave behind my brains and mind
And try for am M.B.E.

Oh I am a Scottish M.P.
From a city grey and black
And I'll shut my mouth when I'm in the south
Just in case they send me back
Now some folk work for Labour
And some for the Tory class
But I work like hell for me mysel'
And the rest can kiss my - kilt

Oh Scotland, dearest Scotland
You have given me your trust
If I make the grade to the Board of Trade
Just guess who'll I trade first
I'll trade the Lowlands for a peerage
Give me an earldom for the Isles
And the whole damn lot could be easily bought
With one of Lizzie's smiles

Oh I am a Scots Home Ruler
At my English Queen's command
For my real birthright is to be a knight
And the rest can be republican
So come Grimond, Home and Ramsay Mac
Our Scottish Englishmen
Nationality for a Scots M.P.
Means tea at Number Ten

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 05:07 AM

great stuff Jim!

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 05:40 AM

Stig...I don't often disagree with you, but we don't need a return to anything.

Who was it said "Work makes us free"?

Work enslaves us and diminishes our quality of life.

Capitalism has led us to expect an ever increasing and more wastful standard of living, substituting worthless material junk for real life.
We need to completely re-examine our role on this planet and this is as good a time as any to start....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 07:00 AM

I don't think a return to the politics of principle (which has been a pretty rare thing) is incompatible with ake's otherwise excellent post above.

DougR, most of us in Europe find the US postulation of right wing capitalist politics as some sort of norm or having some sort of desirability, and the associated preening that the US is the policeman of the world, that its enslavement of other cultures under its economic colonialism is some sort of liberation deeply, deeply offensive: just as offensive as the insistence by Christian missionaries that they were "saving" those they railroaded into subjugation.

We do believe that socialism is, that sharing is, morally superior to the beggar my neighbour beliefs apparently so prevalent in the USA.

It seemed to me, and it I expect seems to many of us, that you were taking a cheap shot about the "superiority" of the US norm over all others. It would I feel be consistent with your general political stance here, would it not?

I don't often quote the bible, but surely as ye sow so shall ye reap.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Leadfingers
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 07:49 AM

I am Working Class and proud of it ! I ALWAYS voted Labour until 1997 , when ALL mention of Socialism was removed from the New Labour Manifesto . Since then , I have voted in EVERY election in my local Constituency and have NEVER Voted for the Labour candidate . (OR The Conservative , if it matters)

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: goatfell
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 06:38 PM

I was in Northern Ireland on holiday and I'm glad that the SNP won, because it's goodbye the unionists parties, and hopefully goodbye to Westminster rule, Home rule for England.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: DougR
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 07:08 PM

My original post was not intended to convey that all countries should emulate the U.S. economic policies, though in America it has, by an large been successful and affords the majority a comfortable life. In no way did I intend to insult anyone or convey a sense of superiority. I wrote the post only to learn more about the political system in the British Isles. My experience on the Mudcat has led me to believe that the definition of liberal and conservative might differ in the U. S. from the definition in other parts of the world.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 07:28 PM

There is often an unexamined assumption when people are talking about politics in different countries, along the lines that there's a neat political spectrum you can apply everywhere, a bit like an exchange rate converter for different currencies. But often that just isn't true. The popular concerns which drive and shape politics are just too different.

The very same policies that are seen as defining marks of being on the right or the left will typically be mixed up in a totally different way. What's seen as right wing in one place will be seen as left wing in another, and parties and regimes will have their own peculiar mix of the two.

Moreover the significant differences often aren't on the left-right spectrum at all, but in a completely independent authoritarian-libertarian spectrum - which graphically would need to be plotted at right angles.

And on top of that, of course, there are differences in the way words are used. Most especially for a word like "liberal" which in some places can be used by parties at virtually any point on either of those spectra.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Stu
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 04:43 AM

Ake - I totally agree with you. What I was trying to say in my slightly ham-fisted way was we need to return to a politics where ideals come before greed.

My worry is we are becoming too like the Americans in our approach: Here 'democracy' means 'capitalism' - the words are virtually interchangeable and to my mind is devaluing the very concept of democracy as a political system. From the posts here we are all aware of the ties between big business and our respective governments; other posts have discussed the shadowy Bilderberg Group, where discussion take place far from the prying eyes of the electorate.

This is why I think the UK should have closer ties with Europe. Although we are often at odds with our continental neighbours we also have far more in common with them than we realise, and as many European countries have made the mistakes of Empire have a unique perspective on the consequences of a belligerent approach to foreign policy and subsequently are far more tolerant societies. The politics of most European countries are totally secular, and with the rise of the religious right in American politics as a counter to the perceived radicalisation if Islam this middle way approach (although I hate to use a term coined by Blair) is needed if we are to maintain a balanced and considered response to the problems facing the world.

My worry is we have already succumbed to the lie of consumerism; at some point in the last decade we crossed the rubicon that means we are all to clingy to our material possessions and home comforts, which makes us sheep-like in our acceptance of the ever-increasing threats on our liberty from our own governments, and that is a truly frightening prospect.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 05:53 AM

In that case, Doug, I misread you and will stand back a little more.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 12:21 PM

"Who was it said "Work makes us free"?

Work enslaves us and diminishes our quality of life."

Oh, Akenaton, you never spoke a truer word!! Today is my 60th birthday and, because I got thrown on the scrapheap at 57, I've been able to doss about taking photographs and soaking up the sunshine. So much of my life was wasted on making profits for rich c**ts - money-grubbing, moronic, life-hating bastards! I realise now that so much of my 'life' as a 'wage-slave' was a complete waste of time. May they all die of some excrutiating disease and burn in Hell - f**k 'em!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 01:38 PM

Hey Guest Shimrod, don't feel as though you have to hold back, I mean tell it like you think it is.

I have never heard such self-pitying drivel in my entire life, I would rather hope somebody shot me before I came out with such crap.

"So much of my life was wasted on making profits for rich c**ts" - I take it that you were in paid employment or are you just talking about what you used to throw over the bar each week?

"money-grubbing, moronic, life-hating bastards!" - Well as only you know who you are talking about we can put this down as a highly subjective personal opinion.

"I realise now that so much of my 'life' as a 'wage-slave' was a complete waste of time." - I take it then that you could have left and done something else you thought was more rewarding at any time.

"May they all die of some excrutiating disease and burn in Hell - f**k 'em!!!" - So much for the milk of human kindness, they should suffer such ill-will for doing being guilty of doing what exactly? Employing you? Paying you? Heaven forbid for making a profit?

Grow up, there are many, many more in the world who have suffered far harsher fates who bear them with one thousand times the fortitude displayed by the likes of you - I take it Guest Shimrod that you are a "socialist" judging by that well worn mantra - It's everybody else's fault except my own, somebody else should have done something about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: DougR
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 02:32 PM

Teribus: Guest Shimrod's post is an excellent example of liberal compassion.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 04:09 PM

For a start, Teribus I don't have to defend myself against people like you - f**k you and your scorn!

Actually, if you must know, my comments were a reflection on the amount of time I spent in pointless meetings listening to drivel spouted by egotistical, know-nothing idiots. and the amount of time I spent writing other pointless drivel on flip-charts in 'brain-storming' sessions, and other stupid 'management' exercises, which never produced anything remotely worthwhile.

Add to that the equally endless hours spent trying to second guess the intentions of the super-annuated ego-maniacs at the top and the subsequent office politics. "Oh, STEVE farted in the meeting this morning - this must mean he he wants us to stand on our heads and juggle coconuts with our feet - possibly ... ???"

And while this was going on sytematic ways of doing things, knowledge, skills and craftmanship were gradually phased out and replaced by brute-force-and-ignorance, bullshit and lots and lots of arm-waving. No wonder the world economy is going down the tubes!

Anyway, changing the subject, who exactly are you, Teribus? I get these paranoid fantasies about you being some sort of 'spook' who is paid to go on to websites and ridicule anything vaguely subversive. You only ever seem to support the status-quo. If I'm even vaguely right, I have the satisfaction of knowing that your life working life is an even bigger waste of time than mine was.

Oh and by the way, since I became involuntarily 'work-free' I have begun to live again - I insist - working was a waste of my time and everyone else's (38 years of my life, Teribus, you a**hole!). And at least I don't have to take any crap from people like you!

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 04:23 PM

Shimrod's entitled to express the way he feels.

If on sober reflection, that's how he feels about his working life, you should respect that.

yes theres always people have harder lives than you have - it doesn't relieve of responsibility those people who are always sodding up other peoples lives. And we're at a time of our lives when you should understand we all feel a little bitterness for what might have been and indeed what should have been.

show a bit of compassion, and stop taking cheap shots.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 04:48 PM

WLD - Exactly as I ended my last post - That well worn "socialist" mantra of "the left" - It's everybody else's fault except my own, somebody else should have done something about it.

As for Guest Shimrod, if he was stupid enough to vent here in a public forum as he did then he should expect to receive comments both supporting and condemning whatever he says - respect does not enter into it, especially in a post that calls down ill on those whose only apparent crime is to have done their jobs and attracted the venom of someone who does not have the guts to state the case against them.

It took him 38 years to find out he disliked his job - that would amount to a damn slow learning curve by anyone's standards.

No-one is owed a life, if a person adjudges things to be wrong with their lives it is up to them to change things. But there again asking a "socialist" to adopt any measure of personal responsibility is a complete and utter anathema and an utterly pointless exercise - Somebody else has to do it, with "Government money" of course.

"And while this was going on sytematic ways of doing things, knowledge, skills and craftmanship were gradually phased out and replaced by brute-force-and-ignorance, bullshit and lots and lots of arm-waving. No wonder the world economy is going down the tubes!" - Guest Shimrod - ill-informed "Luddite" Crap.

As for me Guest Shimrod, rest assured that I have absolutely no "paranoid fantasies about you" at all. And for the record, I do not so much "support the status quo" as tilt at the usual ill-constructed, illogical, left-wing, lies, half-truths, misrepresentations and myths that get trotted out time after time for the blind acceptance of fools such as yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 04:58 PM

Shimrod ....It was a fine post containing all the frustration that most of us feel over so many wasted years.
Very few of us live our lives any longer. we are in hock up to our necks, while Capitalism constructs ever more efficient ways of exchanging our lives on earth, for worthless crap.

Don't worry about Teribus, the insulated soundproof box that he lives in, ensures that he feels no pain.

I have read that in lower life forms, the brain is not sufficiently developed to feel pain......or empathy.

Hope you have any happy years to compensate for the shit...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 05:06 PM

Some people get stuck in situations thay have no control over - family responsibilities and the like.

You do the best you can with your life. No one intentionally screws up everything. even the village drunk thinks its the best accomodation of the facts of his life that he can manage.

you know what Jesus said - Judge not lest ye be judged.

that's the toughest commandment in my book Teribus, but its a goodie! makes you think!

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 05:53 PM

"you know what Jesus said - Judge not lest ye be judged. - WLD

"So much of my life was wasted on making profits for rich c**ts - money-grubbing, moronic, life-hating bastards! ........ May they all die of some excrutiating disease and burn in Hell - f**k 'em!!!" - Guest Shimrod.

Nothing judgemental about that little outburst at all then, eh Al?

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 06:13 PM

well yes other people are judgemental, but you have heard it said, an eye or an eye, a tooth for a tooth. but I say to thee, if another man offends thee turn the other cheek...

You have to be nicer than the other guy - otherwise the situation stays the same.

Its a goodie. makes you think.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 07:19 PM

Aren't personal attacks on other members supposed to be disallowed in this place?

Not that anyone should need that kind of rule to stop them going in for such attacks. More especially when they have not even got the excuse that they were the target of a personal attack. A shame. because it messes up discussions that deserve to be treated better, and often completely derails them, or gets threads closed down by the Mudcat's fire marshalls.
..........................

Any time I meet a former colleague I can generally tell whether they are still working or if they have retired by the expression on their faces. If they look shifty and a bit at odds with the world they probably haven't retired yet. If they look relaxed and cheerful they probably have. (And I'm talking about people who are or were doing a reasonably interesting job and on the whole liking it well enough.)

There are exceptions. People for whom the end of their employment feels like the end of their life - the fate which we are constantly told lies in wait for us, during our working years. But thank God, it's not true for most of us - in fact that story is essentially a con that serves to keep us under control.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: DougR
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 07:53 PM

McGrath: if you are referring to Guest Shimrod's attack on Teribus, it would appear that Shimrod is not a member.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Stu
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 04:38 AM

Hmm, it appears a post of mine has disappeared - how unusual.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 06:56 AM

Actually I was referring to Teribus's personal attack on Shimrod, when he (or she) sounded off against things in general in a non-personalised way.

With 1000+ plus posts, above and below the lines, Shimrod may sign in as a GUEST but surely counts as a member. And the thumbs down on personal attacks surely applies to making such attacks on anyone who comes to the Mudcat.

It's quite possible to express disagreement and argue forcefully without getting into that kind of stuff - as you demonstrate, Doug. Arguing doesn't have to mean quarrelling.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 10:07 AM

akenaton,

It seems to me that the Scottish Nationalists have won a protest vote against the ruling party. Their victory probably has more to do with dissatisfaction with the price of gas and the cost of optional war than it does with scottish independence.

Canada has had the Bloc in Quebec for many years now, though they still talk of independence, their political niche is to be regional advocates. In a parliamentary system, the squeekiest wheeled do get oiled.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 11:22 AM

Well said Shimrod.

Teribus - go play squash. You probably drive the steamroller.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 12:59 PM

"It took him 38 years to find out he disliked his job - that would amount to a damn slow learning curve by anyone's standards."

I didn't say that I disliked my job, Teribus. In fact I loved it and was bloody good at it (even though I say so myself). What I hated, and came to loathe, was the god-awful 'management culture' that crept in,like some poisonous miasma, to pervade my workplace. I also came to despise the grubby, back-stabbing, talentless careerists who always seemed to float to the top like the proverbial scum. My actual job, the one described in my 'job description' was gradually displaced by 'targets', form filling, writing bollocks on flip-charts, arm-waving, 'Health & Safety' (aka: a perfect excuse for the talentless to boss others around) and meaningless 'hoop-jumping'. THESE things were a waste of my life!

I came to notice that my infrequent trips abroad - to Eastern Europe and South East Asia - came closer to being more fulfilling because people in those places had not yet been infected with the virus of 'managerialism' (give them time!). And don't even get me started on the vile, super-hypocritical dogma of 'team-working'!

Actually, I am now involved in voluntary work - and very satisfying it is too! Now I'm experiencing REAL teamwork - not the spurious, dogmatic kind forced down our throats in my previous paid employment.

I meet many fine people in the course of this work - some paid and some, like me, unpaid. In private the paid ones often complain to me about the same sorts of bullshit that I had to endure not so long ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 04:02 PM

Jack my friend you are wrong!
Although there is a national disgust with New Labour, especially Blair and his cronies, there is also a political movement at work in Scotland and I am absolutely certain that we will achieve independence from the UK in under five years.

We would have become an Independent nation back in the 1970's had the Scots not put their faith in the Labour Party to defeat the Conservatives....Instead, the Labour Party joined the Conservatives and fucked the Scots.

We will never make that mistake again.
Maybe you have to be a Scot and live here, but I know something is happening in Scotland, coupled with a new sense of self- belief, that I hope will be a template for smaller countries all over the world.
There will be a battle for the "soul" of the new Scotland but hopefully we will follow an egalitarian agenda and hammer another nail in the coffin of Global Capitalism..Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Gulliver
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 04:30 PM

I think I can empathize with Shimrod. I worked for years in Germany for a large multi-national and due to changes in markets, etc., saw many clever men who had worked their butts off to get their qualifications and move into management/supervisory positions being turned into robots and pen-pushers. At least in our company they were well paid, but boy, were they frustrated!

On client visits to engineering companies I often saw similar cases, men and women doing "busy-work" until they reached retirement age, but without having the advantage of the good pay that we had. The amount of secret drinking that went on on the job was unbelievable! My girl-friend's father drank himself to death just after retirement (having started drinking at work many years before).

I was made redundant two years ago and am happily working part-time and doing a lot of voluntary work, also playing a bit of music (something I rarely had time for before).

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 08:41 PM

'There will be a battle for the "soul" of the new Scotland but hopefully we will follow an egalitarian agenda and hammer another nail in the coffin of Global Capitalism..Ake '

i think Khomeini used that line with some success. it is bollocks though, isn't it?

We all like the goodies that capitalism showers on us if we're lucky enough to live in the right countries.

either way make sure the tassells on your sporan don't inflame the deeply hidden passions of John Knox's true inheritors.

Khomeini went from liberalism to handchopping in a period of about a week.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 11:00 PM

akenaton

I may be wrong. I am not a Scott. But I know a number of Quebecers who talked then as you do now. Some still do.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 03:06 AM

Al..... I hate boasting, but my predictions have a habit of coming true..:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 03:12 AM

Just as a matter of interest to me, what do you and Jack have against the idea of Scottish Independence?

Scotland is quite different from Quebec historically.
We are an ancient nation in our own right.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 04:12 AM

I have nothing against it at all. I just don't see one closely lost election as a sign that it is impending.

Certainly with the EU and the recent success of Ireland its not as risky an economic proposition as it used to be.

Best of luck to you!

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 04:55 AM

Thanks Jack....The SNP did achieve a swing of almost 25% to overturn a 13000 majority; and that in a seat which had been solidly Labour for half a century.

Don't listen to Teribus's shite...he's only whistling in the dark.
They say he wears "Union Jack" pyjamas.

Al...who exactly would we want to practice "limb lopping" against?

I don't envisage a Pol Pot style of revolution and there are more Muslims here than Wee Free's......Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 10:04 AM

I dunno. You gotta face it, your country was very big on witch burning, closing the pubs at ten pm, tawse weilding teachers, punishing fornicators, football hooliganism and razor weilding gangsters at one time - not mention supporting dodgy Stewart monarchs, and the divine right of kings. And Lulu is a tory.

Amidst all that fine socialism - there is a streak of illiberality. You don't notice it so much, cos you're more spread out than we are. But I think the struggle for the soul of Scotland may be conducted with all the good grace of a Billy Bremner tackle.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Stu
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 10:11 AM

An independent Scotland could benefit from the hydrocarbons still under the North Sea.

Still, I'm always puzzled by anyone's desire to maintain the Union, so I applaud the SNP.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 12:08 PM

>>An independent Scotland could benefit from the hydrocarbons still under the North Sea.

Good luck with getting that without a fight.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 12:23 PM

It's a pity there can't be an English equivalent of the SNP and Plaid Cymru - nationalist without being racist, and well to the left of the present Labour Party.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Gulliver
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 02:01 PM

Practically every party in the country, with the possible exception of the BNP, is to the left of the present Labout Party!

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 03:39 PM

Jack's right about the oil Stigweard, but we can soon be in a position to export energy from Hydro Electricity and offshore wind farms.

Personally I would like to see the new Scotland concentrate on using and producing LESS energy and promotion of energy saving in all facets of life.
This would probably lead to a "lowering" of material living standards in the short term, so persuading the politicians to take this course oif action woul also be difficult.

Time will tell.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Stu
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 03:55 PM

"It's a pity there can't be an English equivalent of the SNP and Plaid Cymru - nationalist without being racist, and well to the left of the present Labour Party"

There's way too much anti-English feeling for this to ever happen. Every time the idea is floated there are cries of 'racist' and 'right-wing', and you'll never get away from that. I don't think you could express English nationalism, in fact I can't see how you could (think back to the reaction of Roots by Show of Hands).

Too much baggage from the past.

Unless . . .

We could shrug off the Norman Yoke and declare a republic and start again - from the left!

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 04:12 PM

A little thread drift.

I see "Mad Milliband" is preparing to chalenge Brown for the leadership. Does he remind you of anyone?

You think the Party is right wing now, just wait till these guys take control!
Your all welcome to come to Scotland, but you'll need tae grow yer ain tatties an keep a few hens!...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 04:17 PM

In this context "English nationalism" means being in favour of an end to the Union with Scotland (and Wales, if that's what the Welsh want).

Nothing in the least racist about that - after all that's what Scots in favour of independence want, and they can come in all colours and from all kinds of ancestral homelands. I understand you don't have to wear a kilt and have a Caledonian pedigree stretching back yonks to support the SNP.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 04:57 PM

>>"It's a pity there can't be an English equivalent of the SNP and Plaid Cymru - nationalist without being racist, and well to the left of the present Labour Party"<<

You have to admit that when a huge ruling majority talks about being oppressed it rings a bit hollow. Now if Yorkshire had a separatist party they'd be on to something.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 09:25 AM

"The SNP did achieve a swing of almost 25% to overturn a 13000 majority; and that in a seat which had been solidly Labour for half a century." - Akenaton

That was entirely down to the fact that 57.75% of the electorate of the Glasgow East Constituency could be bothered to lift themselves from their apathetic "couldnae-gie-a-fuck" arses to vote.

Mid term protest vote nothing more nothing less.

As for Akenaton's predictions, off hand I can't think of one that he's got right. Should have consulted Salmond about Scotland being independent within 5 years. It will come as news to him he isn't prepared to put it before the country by way of a referendum for another 10 years. If a referendum was held on Independence for Scotland tomorrow the result would be a resounding NO. If, however, that referendum were to include the people of England, Scotland would be independent by the end of the month.

Akenaton wishes to cut production of hydrocarbons at a time when the price for that resource is at a high, well what country needs income from natural resources? Gives a good indication though of how well his head is screwed on. He forgets what the people of Shetland and Orkney said about "Scotland's Oil" back in 1975 - They told the SNP that if Scotland voted for Independence they would stay with Westminster. Now take away "Orkney & Shetlands Oil" and Scotland don't have that much to speak of. As a Shetlander I'd take this Independence thing a couple of stages further. If Scotland votes for Independence then we vote to seperate from Scotland and revert to direct rule from Norway, taking with us our natural resources. The Norwegians would welcome the return and not being in the EU, the Orkneys and Shetlands would get back their fishing industries and reap the benefits of becoming part of one of the richest countries in the world.

Akenaton wants to sell the electorate of Scotland on universal reduction of their standard of living - Good luck to him with that.

Akenaton also has not mentioned that the population of Scotland would have to pay more in tax in order to live in an independent Scotland with a reduced standard of living.

Sounds like most of what he spouts, arrant drivel, emotive lefty nonsense without a whit of commonsense, logic or reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 02:30 PM

My My Teribus didn't think you would have the cheek to show your face back on this thread after the heap of shite you aimed at Shimrod.

Who do you think you are? Shimrod was giving a personal opinion of a working environment that many of us recognise. The sickening hierarchial environment that strips work of pleasure and job satisfaction.
However let us move on...You lead us to believe that you have taken up residence in Scotland, if this is so, even wearing your customary blinkers, you cannot have missed seeing the change in Scottish politics....People actually talk about politics these days....There is a buzz everywhere...people are excited...something is happening at last.

After years of being told by UK politicians that we Scots were too stupid to look after our own affairs, Alex Salmond has shown that a Scottish government is more than a match for a United Kingdom one.
The last bye-election was no protest vote, it was made by Salmond into a test of strength between Westminster and Hollyrood and guess who came out on top? In a seat which has been solidly Labour for years.
Mid term protest vote my arse! apathy is built into the UK electoral
system, nobody really believes that they are represented anymore...except bankers and retired Naval pen pushers!!

Predictions? Oh yes I suppose you forgot about that little skirmish over in Iraq that the Americans were going to tidy up in months.

Who predicted that it would be a disaster for Iraq and for Blairs Labour Party? While you patted youself on the back over "Shock and Awe".

A few posts ago you described me as a "Wee Heilan anarchist without a positive thought or idea in my head, what a laugh!! Your last two posts on this thread are the biggest load of negativity that I've ever read....and negativity about your adopted country at that.

Best plan for you would be tae pack up yer Union Jack pygamas in yer auld kitbag and get tae fuck back ower the border.
The new Scotland will have no need for "military men" retired or otherwise
I'll leave you with the words of Hamish Henderson tae ponder, he for one, would have been proud of his countrymen when they put war behind them for ever!

"Nae mair will our bonnie callants
Merch tae war when oor braggarts crousely craw
Nor wee weans frae pitheid an clachan
Mourn the ships sailin doun the Broomielaw
Broken faimlies in lands we've hairriet
Will curse 'Scotlan the Brave' nae mair, nae mair
Black an white ane-til-ither mairriet
Mak the vile barracks o thair maisters bare"

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 02:45 PM

Please do not send Teribus back.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 02:51 PM

As long as he doesn't emigrate to Canada! It doesn't bear thinking about.

You know, when I saw this thread title the first thing that occurred to me was...

"Bloody hell! Eddie Whatnoll must have fallen off the living room sofa again."

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 03:39 PM

"You lead us to believe that you have taken up residence in Scotland" - Akenaton.

"Best plan for you would be tae pack up yer Union Jack pygamas in yer auld kitbag and get tae fuck back ower the border." - Akenaton.

"Please do not send Teribus back." - Richard Bridge.

"As long as he doesn't emigrate to Canada! It doesn't bear thinking about." - Little Hawk.

Simple question for the three of you:

Exactly who the fuck do you lot think you are telling people where they can or cannot live?

Oh and Akenaton just a point but the day I let some little twerp like you tell me to "get tae fuck" out of the country I was born and raised in will be a long time in its dawning.

"you cannot have missed seeing the change in Scottish politics....People actually talk about politics these days....There is a buzz everywhere...people are excited...something is happening at last."

Really? Voter turn out at the last Scottish General Election was what again Akenaton? Round about 35% wasn't it? That's a buzz is it?

18% of the Glasgow East electorate vote SNP and that's excitement, interest and the dawning of a new political day is it Akenaton? Well at least by now you must be inured to disappointment

MGOH I would like to know where in either my post of 28 Jul 08 - 01:38 PM or in the post of 28 Jul 08 - 04:48 PM, that I made a personal attack on Guest Shimrod?

Whereas GUEST,Shimrod's post of 28 Jul 08 - 04:09 PM was in toto a personal attack on me.

Case of one sauce for the goose and another for the gander eh Kevin? Another thing that "socialists" are remarkably good at justifying.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 03:53 PM

My, such a satisfying response, Mr "T". Pistols at dawn, I presume?

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 04:39 PM

You were born and raised in Scotland?
If thats true it makes your comments even worse..Or is a case of Brit first...Scot second.
Suppose we better not inflict you on Hawk or Richard...We'll just keep you here and re-educate you....Sorry educate you.

Don't you see the satire flying EVERYWHERE Teribus, even traditional Tory voters are turning into Nationalists...Those conservative pillars of the Union.
Whether you like it of not, The Imperialist warmongering United Kingdom is finished ...and you know it.
I no longer gamble, but have had some right good touches in my time.
I would be pleased to accept some of your money at evens, that the SNP make substancial gains from Labour at the next election?
As I say, apathy is built into the UK electoral system and for 42% of the Glagow East electorate to turn out for a By-Election was excellent. A sign that a political sea change is under way.
This was a seat in a Labour heartland, a society steeped in the "benefits culture" three generations lost and forgotten, yet they got up off their apathetic "couldnae gie a fuck" arses in sufficient numbers to remove the Unionist parasites who have kept the in a state of degradation for more than eighty years.

I hope that we become a nation not just concerned with our economic welfare, but one with a regained sense of pride and self belief.

No more Trident weapons systems, no more suppying of young men and women as cannon fodder for our warmongering UK leaders....Salmond spoke out in the strongest terms against the Iraq War,   while people like you and a good percentage of Labour MPs applauded the slaughter of hundreds of thousands...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 05:43 PM

Only one thing could have stopped us...The Auld Scottish pessimism!

Scotland by Alastair Reid
"It was a day peculiar to this piece of the planet
when larks rose on long thin strings of singing
and the air shifted with the shimmer of actual angels.
Greenness entered the body. The grasses
shivered with presences and sunlight
stayed like a halo on hair and heather and hills.
Walking into town, I saw, in a radiant raincoat,
the woman from the fish-shop. 'What a day it is!'
cried I, like a sunstruck madman.
And what did she have to say for it?
Her brow grew bleak, her ancestors raged in their graves
as she spoke with their ancient misery:
'We'll pay for it, we'll pay for it, we'll pay for it!'


At a recent gathering of writers, the author of this poem Alastair Reid, took the original manuscript from his pocket and set fire to it in front of the assembled crowd.
"That was the old Scotland" he cried "now it is gone!"

Welcome to the new Scotland Teribus!!

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 06:36 PM

It will come as news to him he isn't prepared to put it before the country by way of a referendum for another 10 years.

That'd be news to everyone. The SNP have said that they wish to have a referendum in 2010, by which time they will have had a full term in office. Doesn't seem unreasonable. So where did the "10 years" come from?

Of course one significance of 2010 would be that by that time it will have become clear whether the English voters wish to put the Tories back in power, and that might affect how Scots vote, especially if there is a Tory landslide in England.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 08:44 PM

MGOH I would like to know where in either my post of 28 Jul 08 - 01:38 PM or in the post of 28 Jul 08 - 04:48 PM, that I made a personal attack on Guest Shimrod?

Whereas GUEST,Shimrod's post of 28 Jul 08 - 04:09 PM was in toto a personal attack on me.

Case of one sauce for the goose and another for the gander eh Kevin? Another thing that "socialists" are remarkably good at justifying.

This seems to be a question that you have ducked or do you want me to take this as a PM? But I tell you now I WILL publish any reply on this thread, you hypocritical prat.

Very pleased to hear that Little Hawk finds that it is within his province to dictate where people can live and where they can't - No real problem there because Little Hawk's racist opinions are entirely his own and actually effect nothing.

Please note that on this forum I have never advocated, or voiced, an opinion as to where anyone posting here may or may not live. Little Hawk on the other hand seems to feel qualified and entitled to do so, speaks volumes for the pair of us LH, the "little" may be right , but you defame the name of a bird and species that is an excellent parent, which you old son are certainly not, unless of course you count a small dog, Chongo and Shane as your "family", of which only the first exists in real life - Tell me? How sad is that?.

"Don't you see the satire flying everywhere?" Fuckin' brilliant Akenaton!!!! You do of course mean "Don't you see the SALTIRE flying everywhere" At least I have enough recognition of the symbols of my own country to get them right!!! It is actually a measure of insecurity, nothing more.

Now let's take a look at this:

"This was a seat in a Labour heartland, a society steeped in the "benefits culture" three generations lost and forgotten, yet they got up off their apathetic "couldnae gie a fuck" arses in sufficient numbers to remove the Unionist parasites who have kept the in a state of degradation for more than eighty years."

Quite right Akenaton, "a society steeped in the "benefits culture", now tell me what is it that this, "a society steeped in the "benefits culture" expects from an independent Scotland under an SNP Government? Are they all immediately going to transform themselves into productive members of society? Or is it going to be more of the same in belief of slightly higher level of state benefits? And no what your SNP votes in Glsagow East actually translates to is that 18.2% of the electorate voted SNP and it was allowed to stand - Hey Akenaton that means that slightly one person in five turned out to vote for the SNP and all of a sudden that becomes "the will of the people" and indicates the way that they want to go - lesson in realism Akenaton oh no it does not.

Tell you what Akenaton, an exercise in what you truly believe. You organise a petition for a referendum on Scottish independence now, put that up to Alex Salmond and this SNP in which you hold such faith - Then come back and tell us what they tell you. I'll tell you now there is not one single member of the Scottish Nationalist that is prepared to put it to the vote.

By the bye you little twerp come back with reasoned arguement not your usual irrelevant emotive crap - One Scot to another.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 09:10 PM

I'll place a bet here folks - Bet Akenaton does absolutely fuck all with regard to pushing forward any debate on a referendum for Scottish Independence - That is how "committed" Akenaton is.

Statement made - Tell us Akenaton, exactly what you have done to prove me a liar?

Readers, please don't be too surprised if the response and answer is - Fuck All.

Akenaton = Bar Room Revolutionary, all dearly held political beliefs immediately forgotten, when real-life problems spring to the fore and actual solutions must be found.

Akenaton, old son as a Scotsman, you are a complete and utter dinosaur, best left many metres under the earth, your paths like those you followed previously only lead to impoverishment, degradation and disaster. Having read and istened to your "professed" arguements, you haven't got a clue as to which end is up.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 09:25 PM

Gawd...I love it when you wax all quasi-serious about my latest tongue-in-cheek comments, Teribus. You are a true wit of the poker-faced variety. You exceed even Charles Bronson and Winston Churchill at conveying an aspect of grim resolve, but I know that deep down you really love me, you approve of my radical views, you dote on my fictional characters, you are delighted by my catholic sense of humour and my natural loyalty to the glorious British Empire, and you are just feigning all this righteous anger and contempt that you pretend to be aiming my way.

Great acting, mate. Bloody marvelous. Almost anyone would be convinced that you despise me.

But we know better, don't we? ;-) Why, we're practically like brothers, you and I.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: DougR
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 10:13 PM

My, my, my. Things do heat up a spell sometime don't they? For the record, Teribus, I thought "what's his name" was very disrespectful of you and your opinion. What happened to "what's his name" anyway?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 10:17 PM

It was a simple question Little Hawk to which you have as yet not provided an answer:

"Exactly who the fuck do you think you are telling people where they can or cannot live?"

Please don't pass this off as, "Aw shucks I was jest kiddin'" - a-la Bobert. You meant every damn word of it, but just didn't expect to pulled up on it. Sorry old son you have, now just explain to everyone hear on "Mudcat" why you should be the arbitrator as to who, and who cannot, live in Canada.

If you cannot, them shut the fuck up and retract your comment.

Oddly enough, Litle Hawk, I have been asked three times in my life whether or not I would be prepared to live in Canada, so far three times I have declined the offer.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 12:46 AM

Three times? Good lord. Think what Canada has lost!

But to the contrary, old sport. I wouldn't particularly mind at all if you...or anyone else like you...decided to move to Canada. I don't see why it would matter, after all. It's a very large country with lots of available space. I was just...what's the British expression for it? "Taking the piss" is it? To wit, I was indeed simply idly pulling your chain for the sheer entertainment value, old pal, having a little meaningless fun at your expense, and you responded so marvelously, just like a moray eel darting angrily out of his lair. That's why I enjoy talking with you so much. It's like playing ping pong, you always know there's another fast return from Mr "T" coming across the net shortly.

If you like, I'll even put in a good word for you with the immigration people in Nunavut. Then too, Blind River can always use another old sorehead, specially an old Scottish sorehead. You would find many kindred souls in Blind River. There are numerous Scots there, as well as Irish. And there's a lot to get sore about in Blind River too. Dreadful lack of social services and good restaurants, for example.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 02:14 AM

Hah Teribus thats one of your bets down the "Swanee".
I am perfectly happy to discuss a Scottish Independence Referendum, which I'm sure will happen within FIVE years not TEN.
I may sometimes make the odd typo or spelling error, but you on the other hand seem to have no grasp of the facts involved in the future of your own country.

Now, to the main bet....The one about the forecast SNP landslide?
If you are man enough, show us the colour of your money....I'll even let Doug hold the bet.....He may be an idiot, but he seems an honest idiot :0)

McGrath is quite correct, Alex Salmond is a shrewd politician, and knows only too well that when Mr Cameron moves into Downing Street, the move for Independence will be unstoppable.

Mr McGrath is also correct about the proposed timescale, and I wish you would exemt him from your personal abuse, as he is one of the most civil men on these boards..Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 03:02 AM

Regarding my ideas for the future of Scotland, they are my personal wishes which I hope to see some time in the future.
Mr Salmond, being a politician, may wish to turn our country into another short term "economic miracle", so beloved of Teribus!
These economic questions are for the Scottish people to decide.
One thing I do know, our country will be better free of the UK ego-maniacs who rule the roost in Westminster.

BTW Little Hawk I wouldn't pine too much over Canada's "loss"

I hear all Teribus's offers were made by Scotsmen...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 03:18 AM

Btw Teribus I've lived in scotland for a long long time and haven't heard the expression "twerp" used as a term of abuse.
Sounds a bit "Home Counties" to me.
If you had called me a wee "nyaff" for example it would have sounded better... although being factually wrong

How long have you actually LIVED in Scotland?
You certainly don't seem to have developed much of the famous Scottish character.

In fact, you sound about as genuine as a four pound note!

Another prediction..... Scotland will be free, no argument, no discussion.....Just for once bold, plain fact!!

Stick it in your book then stick it where the sun don't shine....Sunshine.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 04:04 AM

And you Akenaton are a shining example of "that famous Scottish character" are you? A whinging malcontent, whose only wish for the future is for some other form of Government to "break" through to once again jump on a treadmill and subsidise you.

As to how long I have actually lived in Scotland? Good question, I have lived and worked all over the world Akenaton and found it to have been an informative and beneficial experience.

While you have been ranting on in your staccatto-like posts, spluttering about me. I note that you have still not addressed the question put to you regarding votes and voter turnout.

Glasgow East By-Election - Slightly less than one person in five voted for the SNP.

Last Scottish General Election - Slightly more than one person in five voted for the SNP.

Dream on Akenaton by my book that means roughly 80% of the electorate of Scotland don't want to know and they will be the ones who will vote in any referendum on the subject - accept that as being plain fact.

The number of people "flying the flag"? I've always been a bit suspicious of those who have to fly a bit of coloured bunting to bolster their sense of nationality and belonging, it tends to indicate that they lack confidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Stu
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 04:12 AM

Teribus a Scot.

Wonders will never cease. You really can't tell a thing about the people who post on this board, even though we have been discussing these things for years.

I have to say Tezza, I would never have had you down as a Scot in a million years. You must be the only Tory left in the country. I must to say this puts the West Lothian question in a whole new light - I was banking on the fact the Scots had the good sense to run all the right-wingers out of the country years ago (apart from the Scottish Labour party).

I was utterly convinced you were a home-counties Anglo-Saxon, judging by your unquestioning devotion to the establishment and unswerving defence of life under the Norman Yoke.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 04:19 AM

'The Imperialist warmongering United Kingdom is finished ....'

bit of wishful thinking......!

Still one or two punch ups going on out there!

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 04:37 AM

Stigweard - yet another left winger who thinks that they can tell people where they can or cannot live. So much for "socialist" egalitarianism.

"I was utterly convinced you were a home-counties Anglo-Saxon, judging by your unquestioning devotion to the establishment and unswerving defence of life under the Norman Yoke." - Well Stigweard, at least you now know how wrong you can be about things don't you. Now why on earth anyone should be surprised at me being Scottish is rather strange. Apart from me stating that clearly a number of times on threads on this forum, my chosen "Mudcat" name gives the game away every time I post.

By the bye Kevin, has the cat got your tongue? I'll ask you again:

"MGOH I would like to know where in either my post of 28 Jul 08 - 01:38 PM or in the post of 28 Jul 08 - 04:48 PM, that I made a personal attack on Guest Shimrod?

Whereas GUEST,Shimrod's post of 28 Jul 08 - 04:09 PM was in toto a personal attack on me.

Case of one sauce for the goose and another for the gander eh Kevin? Another thing that "socialists" are remarkably good at justifying."

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 05:10 AM

"A whinging malcontent" seems a pretty good description of yourself on this thread Teribus.


"Glasgow East By-Election - Slightly less than one person in five voted for the SNP."
The voters of Glasgow East have become so demoralised by their UK representation, that it's a wonder any voted at all.
It says much for the Nationalists that they could overturn such a majority in a sink like Glasgow East

What a change in I year!!
We're moving forward fast Teribus......hold on to your Trilby hat...I'm sure it won't be a Blue Bonnet...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Stu
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 05:19 AM

"yet another left winger who thinks that they can tell people where they can or cannot live"

Er, don't make things up Tezza - I haven't told you where you should live, I was just musing on the fact you're a rare breed - a rabid right-winger north of the border.

As for being a left-winger - I'm a a Marxist pure and simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 05:32 AM

And what exactly is it that I appear to be whinging about Akenaton? Or is that just the whiff of a brain fart that has blown in from the left field in that spite infested custard you call a brain?

Plain to see what Shimrod is whining about - By the bye didn't you find it odd that when challenged "being tossed on the scrap-heap" and reduced to "dossing around taking photographs" all of a sudden became "left a job I loved by choice" and "now working extremely hard in unpaid "voluntary work" with people who know about real team work."

Plain to see what you whine on endlessly about.

Then there's Little Hawk the "universal underdog" - He whinges about everything. Everybody in God's creation is out of step with LH - Which is why I suppose he, at his age, still requires to invent imaginary "friends" to talk to.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 07:17 AM

I note that Teribus igmored my query "So where did the "10 years" come from?

As for personal attacks, I somehow misconstrued that bit in Teribus 28 Jul 08 - 01:38 PM as a personal attack directed at Shimrod:

I have never heard such self-pitying drivel in my entire life, I would rather hope somebody shot me before I came out with such crap.

I suppose it's all down to how we interpret the term "personal attack".

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 07:53 AM

Kevin some examples:

"As for personal attacks, I somehow misconstrued that bit in Teribus 28 Jul 08 - 01:38 PM as a personal attack directed at Shimrod:

I have never heard such self-pitying drivel in my entire life, I would rather hope somebody shot me before I came out with such crap.

I suppose it's all down to how we interpret the term "personal attack".

How about:

GUEST,Shimrod - PM
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 04:09 PM

For a start, Teribus I don't have to defend myself against people like you - f**k you and your scorn!

OR, How about from the same post:

(38 years of my life, Teribus, you a**hole!).

Now for some reason MGOH sees neither of these as a personal attack – Rather strange, don't you think?

Oh Kevin, could you possibly explain the following sentence of yours:

"Actually I was referring to Teribus's personal attack on Shimrod, when he sounded off against things in general in a non-personalised way."

Can you please explain exactly how you can make a personal attack on someone in a "non-personal way", sounds more than a tad contradictory, and a bit daft to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 08:08 AM

My God Teribus, I've really got you on toast in this one.
"What am I whinging about?"......Take your pick, but Scottish Independence will do for a start.....Or the imminent break-up of your own little Roman Empire,the UK.

"Spite infested custard"....an old joke, but didn't it used to be "Shark infested custard"....Your jokes, like your political ideology, are becoming a bit dated.

I know I've got you on toast when you start making personal attacks instead of addressing the subject under discussion, but you don't want to discuss what is happening in Scotland do you Teribus, where, as your friend Doug would say, "the sky is falling"

Aye but this time the sky really is falling.... for you and your kind.
The great United Kingdom will no longer be a power of use to the people who run American foreign policy.

You gloated as the Soviet Union disintegrated, have you the grace to wish Scotland well, as your own "Empire of Evil" goes down the tube?

As you are so fond of saying "I think not"

I don't care about hydrocarbons or the money we can make destroying the planet. We can easily be self sufficient in energy without using nuclear power or increasing the flow of oil.
Adding to our existing Hydro schemes and making careful use of wave and offshore wind we can be in a position to export energy relatively soon.
I dont believe there is one unbiased commentator left who does not believe that we can be a financially viable country.

There are also all the social and health problems endemic to Scotland, which have been largly ignored by successive UK governments, and now need to be addressed by an administration who really care for the long suffering Scots.

This movement has nothing to do with Left or Right wing, that battle will come later, right now what the Scots are increasingly seeking, is self respect, self belief and a wish to assume their rightful place in this world....as equals with all other nationalities, not cannon fodder or ghettoised, benefit ridden failures, kept in subserviance by each succeeding corrupt Westminster regime.

In the seventies, I was one of those who fell for the lie hook line and sinker......."Vote Labour for Socialism....Not the Tartan Tories".

What a lie that proved to be!...Labour moved steadily "right", away from Socialism and the Independence movement lost its momentum.

We wont believe that lie again...Blair/ Brown and New Labour have proved the lie.
This time its "Independence First" as it should have been in the seventies, then we can build the kind of society we want without the interference of foreign wars or the use of religious sectarianism (as in Northern Ireland) to cloud the issue.

You are toast Teribus!! and like it or not emotion sways more voters (and folkies) than all your phoney facts and figures....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 08:14 AM

Teribus you little liar!

In your answer to McGrath you are intentionally transposing to different posts from Shimrod.

You little scamp! you know Shimrod wasn't addressing you in his opening post. You started throwing the personal shit!!

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 08:21 AM

I don't think responding to a personal attack with a personal attack is a sensible way of acting. But the primary responsibility in such circumstances lies with the person who starts it.

Preemptive personal attacks can't be justified on the ground that the person attacked responded in kind, or even over-responded.

Shimrod's initial post was intemporate rhetoric, but it wasn't directed at Teribus or at anyone else on the Mudcat, or indeed at any identified person anywhere. That's what I meant by it being "non-personal".

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 08:32 AM

Mr McGrath you have a very nice line in SALTIRE...Ake


"As for personal attacks, I somehow misconstrued that bit in Teribus 28 Jul 08 - 01:38 PM as a personal attack directed at Shimrod:"

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 09:32 AM

Odd then Akenaton that 80% of the country agree with me.

100 Up

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 09:57 AM

Eh Akenaton, please try and keep up. What do you think is being said here by Kevin?

"As for personal attacks, I somehow misconstrued that bit in Teribus 28 Jul 08 - 01:38 PM as a personal attack directed at Shimrod"

What does "I somehow misconstrued" mean?

(To misconstrue = to form a false understanding of the meaning or intention of something that someone does or says)

So you tell us all Akenaton, where and when did I personally attack Guest Shimrod. I can clearly point out the posts in which he personally attacked me.

And no Akenaton "Spite Infested" clearly and quite accurately describes your mind and manner.

As to describing "what is happening in Scotland" only too glad to, but so far you have not addressed a single point I have raised. Tell us again why it is that only one person in five is prepared to vote for the SNP? Do 20% of the electorate of Scotland actually constitute a credible mandate?

I won't hold my breath Akenaton, because I know that all you will come out with will be more emotive drivel, such as:

"right now what the Scots are increasingly seeking, is self respect, self belief and a wish to assume their rightful place in this world....as equals with all other nationalities, not cannon fodder or ghettoised, benefit ridden failures, kept in subserviance by each succeeding corrupt Westminster regime."

Got news for you ma wee heilan' anarchist:

"self respect" - is not bestowed upon a person by others it is "self" earned.

"self belief" - Again personally earned it doesn't drop out of the sky.

Tell us what is Scotland's "rightful" place in this world?

"subserviance"?? As a Scot I have never felt subservient to anyone or anything on this planet. If you do, tough shit, your problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 10:33 AM

Yes, my initial post was intemperate, McGrath - thanks for pointing that out. Although I strongly believe that it is entirely appropriate to display such intemperance when discussing 'modern' business practices. I do not regret posting that message and I stand by every word.

Nevertheless, the subsequent post from Teribus was (predictably) scornful and I reacted against that scorn by flinging personal abuse.
Now, normally, I would apologise ... but in this case I retract nothing. You deserve everything you get, Teribus! If you ever post anything which is not quite so slavishly supportive of the status quo and/or questions the set-up just a tiny bit then I might think about changing my mind.

Remember, Teribus, in the 'red-in-tooth-and-claw, 'dog-eat-dog' universe that is all that you can imagine or aspire to, you shouldn't be surprised when some mutt takes a bite out of you!

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 12:03 PM

Here is a page of Google links which came up when I typed in "definition of irony".

There might possibly be something in there which would be of assistance to Teribus.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 12:05 PM

Here is a page of Google links which came up when I typed in "definition of irony".

There might possibly be something in there which would be of assistance to Teribus.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 12:07 PM

Che? "Teribus" - from the old Welsh "Land of Death"???

Something seems to ahev got lost in the translation!

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Stu
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 12:28 PM

It's part of the battle cry of the men of Harwick, sounded on Flodden Field.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 02:21 PM

In hopes of persuading you to reconsider your unfortunate decision (3 times!) NOT to move to Canada, Teribus, I give you...

Twenty-three great things about being a Canadian:


1. You stand in "line-ups" at the movie, not lines.
2. You're not offended by the term, "Homo Milk"
3. You understand the phrase, "Could you please pass me a serviette, I just spilled my poutine"
4. You eat chocolate bars instead of candy bars.
5. You drink pop, not soda.
6. You know what it means to be on pogey.
7. You know that a mickey and 2-4's mean "Party at the camp, eh!!"
8. You don't hold your hand on your breast when you sing the national anthem.
9. You can drink legally while still a teen.
10. You know that francophones, anglophones and allophones are not electronic devices.
11. You talk about the weather with strangers and friends alike.
12. You don't know or care about the fuss with Cuba, it's just a cheap place to travel to and has good cigars.
13. When there is a social problem, you turn to your government to fix it instead of telling them to stay out of it.
14. You're not sure if the leader of our nation has EVER had sex and don't want to know if he has!
15. You get milk in bags as well as cartons and plastic jugs.
16. Pike is a type of fish, not some part of a highway.
17. You drive on a highway, not a freeway.
18. You sit on a couch not a chesterfield - that is some small town in Quebec!
19. You know what a Robertson screwdriver is.
20. You have Canadian Tire money in your kitchen drawers.
21. You know that Thrills are something to chew and "taste like soap".
22. You know that Mounties "don't always look like that"
23. You read rather than scanned this list.

Irresistible, eh? ;-) I expect you will now reconsider.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 03:21 PM

I certainly hope so!

BTW Teribus the Scots don't need anything bestowed on them, by you or Good Queen Lizzie.

They are in the process of regaining their self-respect and self-belief by removing the stain of Unionism.
Ever heard of "The parcel of rogues" Teribus? Half-hearted Scots like you who would sell their country language and culture for thirty pieces of silver!
"Scotlands rightful place?"...why don't you know its as a member of the community of small nations, equal and free, with no wars to make and no other countries to exploit.
"subserviance"?? As a Scot I have never felt subservient to anyone or anything on this planet. If you do, tough shit, your problem."

Ah Teribus, but I don't suppose you ever wanted for much or were forced to live among the drug addicts, the mentally ill , the child molesters, with no role models but the drug barons and gang bosses.

I know East Glasgow well, and large areas are just like that. Areas where whole families, from grandfather to grandson have never had a job ,or the chance of a job. where wee lassies get themselves pregnant to escape brutality and abuse in the family home.
Stinking sink estates where they can just be convieniantly forgotten by the government in far away Westminster.
Yes its "tough shit" and it's definitely "their problem", but it's also Scotland's problem.
Thre generations of people living in such circumstances become dispirited and subserviant. Scottish nationalism can give these people some hope that their lives can be improved....self-respect and self-belief!!

Compared to these people Teribus you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth...a career in the Royal Navy and a large house at the end of it....not bad for a pen pusher!
Easy for you to say "tough shit", "their problem" and call them apathetic "couldnae gie a fuck wasters", but starting from where they started, you Teribus would be just the same...subserviant and defeated!

The new Scotland must first and foremost, tackle drug addiction, which has become a National disgrace under successive UK administrations and before you cry "their problem", drug addiction can only be irradicated by real government action.
That should be our first priority...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 04:55 AM

So Akenaton:

"They are in the process of regaining their self-respect and self-belief by removing the stain of Unionism."

Accomplishing this how exactly Akenaton? With 4 in 5 of the electorate of Scotland against you, how do you go about "removing the stain of Unionism"?

"Ever heard of "The parcel of rogues" Teribus? Half-hearted Scots like you who would sell their country language and culture for thirty pieces of silver!"

Ever heard of it? I know it and sing it on occasion. More important, Akenaton, do you know what it is about? Unlike you I do not regard songs as history, they are indicators to any particularly period in history provided that they were written at the time, i.e. were contemporary. In 1707 the situation in Scotland was dire, and those who ruled Scotland at that time basically had very little choice. What was "the language" that was sold for thirty pieces of silver Akenaton? What was "the culture" that was stripped from the country?

"The community of small nations, equal and free, with no wars to make and no other countries to exploit." – Is called what Akenaton? When was this organization formed? How many members has this "community of small nations"? My guess is that no such "community of small nations" exists outside that addled brain of yours.

"Ah Teribus, but I don't suppose you ever wanted for much"

And your grounds for stating that are the same as much of what you state – absolute ignorance – you know little or nothing about me, as you say supposition, and you would suppose wrong.

As to being, "forced to live among the drug addicts, the mentally ill, the child molesters, with no role models but the drug barons and gang bosses.

I know East Glasgow well, and large areas are just like that."

Oh Akenaton, is that the same East Glasgow of the "Red Clydesiders" that you have banged on about and held out to be such shining examples in the past? Is that the same East Glasgow that has solidly voted for "socialist" Labour politicians at all levels of Government since the formation of the Party? Is that the East Glasgow that forms part of Glasgow which likewise has been controlled and Governed by "socialist" Labour administrations since the formation of the Party? Are you saying that all that "local" Government was powerless?? That it never had any budgetary control? That it could not direct how and where money was spent? Oh sorry I forgot – "socialism" – It is always somebody else's fault.

Now you rather disingenuously indicate that my response to the problem areas you mention amount to - its "tough shit" and it's definitely "their problem" – placing the relevant descriptions in inverted commas as though you are quoting me. Well Akenaton don't put words in my mouth and do not ever attempt to ascribe to me opinions that are not my own. For those interested to find where these supposed quotes of mine came from and their proper context here they are:

""subserviance"?? As a Scot I have never felt subservient to anyone or anything on this planet. If you do, tough shit, your problem." – Teribus, 01 Aug 08 - 09:57 AM. Nothing whatsoever to do with the context you slipped it into was it Akenaton, and I said "your problem" not "their problem" as you deliberately incorrectly "quoted". Don't worry Akenaton telling lies is not something a "socialist" and anarchist should worry about. They have done so much of it, particularly to their own "followers", that they now no longer know what truth, honesty, or integrity is.

The "Stinking sink estates" you speak of where first created by your "socialist" Labour Councils and first conveniently forgotten by the local government the electorate of Glasgow voted into power time after time after time.

So "Three generations of people living in such circumstances become dispirited and subservient. Scottish nationalism can give these people some hope that their lives can be improved....self-respect and self-belief!!" Care to tell us why and how? Will self-help and assumption of personal responsibility enter into this process, or will it be the same old line of bullshit as before? Delivered by the same corrupt, self-seeking, power-hungry leaches as before, only this time round they'll be wearing different coloured rosettes. Only thing wrong with that delivery is that if it couldn't be done before, why should things be different now?   

"Compared to these people Teribus you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth...a career in the Royal Navy and a large house at the end of it....not bad for a pen pusher!" – An opinion expressed by Akenaton based upon total ignorance.

Here is another example of Akenaton putting words in my mouth:

"Easy for you to say "tough shit", "their problem" and call them apathetic "couldnae gie a fuck wasters", but starting from where they started, you Teribus would be just the same...subserviant and defeated!"

The "tough shit" and "YOUR problem" were dealt with previously, now exactly where did I describe anybody as being – ""couldnae gie a fuck wasters"??? – Easy for me to say was it, Akenaton? – Hardly because I never said it at all did I? Yet another of your baseless little defamations.

Akenaton's priority for his "New Scotland":

It must first and foremost, tackle drug addiction, which has become a National disgrace under successive UK administrations.

Can you tell me why drug addiction in Scotland has not been addressed under Scots Law, which has been completely separate from English Law since before 1707?
Can you tell me why drug addiction in Scotland has not been addressed by the Scottish National Health Service which has been completely separate since its foundation as part of the Bevin reforms pushed through after the end of the Second World War? Funded by Westminster admittedly but administered by the regional Scottish Health Authorities.

By the bye Guest Shimrod, thank you for your acknowledgement on the fact that whereas I might have poured scorn on your ideas, I did not and have not as yet made any personal attack on you in this thread. I also acknowledge that you have admitted that in response to my post that you did personally attack me - Your apology or rather the lack of the same, is of no consequence to me, I shall lose no sleep over it. You on the other hand have to live with your own lack of manners as clearly demonstrated.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 07:23 AM

PS- Little Hawk, 18 items on your list would apply in the UK and quite a few would also apply in Australia and New Zealand.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 07:31 AM

"What does "I somehow misconstrued" mean?"

In this context it means, pretty clearly, I believe I was quite right in recognising the passage in question as am unprovoked personal attack on Shimrod, for which an apology would be in order. (My post of 01 Aug 08 - 12:05 PM might be helpful.)

I have never heard such self-pitying drivel in my entire life, I would rather hope somebody shot me before I came out with such crap.

I think that even Teribus might see that as a personal attack if it has been directed at himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 07:46 AM

Kevin;

"....Teribus........ - f**k you and your scorn!" and "Teribus, you a**hole!"

Those are personal attacks, acknowledged by Guest Shimrod, whereas -

"I have never heard such self-pitying drivel in my entire life, I would rather hope somebody shot me before I came out with such crap."

- most definitely is not, I am disagreeing with something that has been said and they way in which it has been said. Under no circumstances could it be construed as a personal attack on anybody because it mentions, or refers to, no-one apart from myself. As I said before you cannot make a personal attack on anyone in a "non-personal" way.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 08:10 AM

Now, now, McGrath, you should know by now that 'natural Tories' like Teribus have a God-given right to sit in judgement on the rest of us. When he passed judgement on me I should have bitten my lip and kept quiet. I should not have let my anger at such presumptive, sarcastic, arrogance spill over on to this thread.

Hang on, what am I saying? Of course I should!

Get stuffed, Teribus!!

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 10:22 AM

Hey Kevin, now that was yet another example of a personal attack from the same source. I await with baited breath you roundly condemning it.

As afar as "Rights" God-given or otherwise I note that within this forum it usually the ardent leftists who are first to dictate what others should or should not do. Like I've said before for them it's one law for the goose another for the gander.

Sweet dreams Shimrod - "spooks" and all.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 11:56 AM

I think that Teribus inability to recognise that he set off this little squabble by making a personal attack on Shimrod is a case of "one law for the goose another for the gander".

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Stu
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 01:11 PM

"As afar as "Rights" God-given or otherwise I note that within this forum it usually the ardent leftists who are first to dictate what others should or should not do."

What a vivid imagination you have - too many years listening to those weasly right-wing propagandists intent on ramping up your paranoia to the nth degree. I note you didn't answer after you falsely accused me of telling you what to do.

Get a grip Tezza - not everyone's out to get you mate - not even "ardent leftists".

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 01:54 PM

Exactly where and when did I make a personal attack on Guest Shimrod Kevin?

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 02:06 PM

"18 items on your list would apply in the UK and quite a few would also apply in Australia and New Zealand."

Yes, Teribus, I suspect that list was made specifically for Americans to read. They are a bit baffled by some of the smaller details of British culture...as found in the UK, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand, as well as a few other smaller places.

Well, this is good. It only indicates that there are even more good reasons for you to seriously consider moving to Canada, since you would find much here to make you feel almost like you were back at home in the UK, despite the paucity of surveillance cameras. Don't refuse the opportunity a fourth time!

Here's another great thing you can see in Canada:

This is not an example of inflation...

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 05:47 PM

et to find out as I may well be working on a project over there next summer.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 05:49 PM

Something went wrong with the keyboard there, my last post should have read:

"I'll probably get to find out as I may well be working on a project over there next summer."

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 05:59 PM

Great. Well, it's in Sudbury. "The Big Nickel". It's a famous local landmark. It doesn't do anything, it just stands there, but the locals are quite proud of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 06:05 PM

"Just the place for a Snark!" the Bellman cried,
As he landed his crew with care;
Supporting each man on the top of the tide
By a finger entwined in his hair.

"Just the place for a Snark! I have said it twice:
That alone should encourage the crew.
Just the place for a Snark! I have said it thrice:
What I tell you three times is true."

So here is three times: "I have never heard such self-pitying drivel in my entire life, I would rather hope somebody shot me before I came out with such crap."

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 07:14 PM

Teribus...would you please address your lie about the "10yr referendum"

"As for Akenaton's predictions, off hand I can't think of one that he's got right. Should have consulted Salmond about Scotland being independent within 5 years. It will come as news to him he isn't prepared to put it before the country by way of a referendum for another 10 years."

Would you please explain why you attempted to transpose the two posts by Shimrod?
I can only assume that you were trying to say that Shimrod started the abuse. This is patently untrue. To say someone is posting "self pitying drivel",then to follow up with "I'd rather someone shot me than allowed me to post such crap" is verbal abuse.
BTW you better send for the whole bloody firing squad...the amount of crap you post!
Oh!! silly me I have indeed slandered you.
I ascribed "apathetic couldnae gie a fuck wasters" to you, when what you really said was "apathetic couldnae gie a fuck arses" in reference to the electorate of Glasgow East.

How the hell could I have made such a mistake??

You are a pedant Teribus, you've no style, and your facts are shite....10yrs?? do you know anything about Scottish politics or have you been off on your travels just too long?

I repeat you are toast Teribus, the Nats will wipe out Labour in the next election. Cameron will win the next UK election easily (another prediction of mine, before blair left office) and there you have the ingredients for full Scottish Independence.

If you disagree with that prediction ..GET YOUR MONEY ON THE TABLE!!

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 08:09 PM

Oh yes ...Drug addiction, as a footnote you say
"Can you tell me why drug addiction in Scotland has not been addressed by the Scottish National Health Service which has been completely separate since its foundation as part of the Bevin reforms pushed through after the end of the Second World War? Funded by Westminster admittedly but administered by the regional Scottish Health Authorities"

"Funded by Westminster admittedly"....Shouldn't that read Grossly underfunded by Westminster, Teribus??
I know rather a lot about drug addiction in Scotland, and I know that past UK governments have shamefully underfunded the Re-habilitation programmes.
It will require mamy hundreds of millions to make any impression on drug addiction, but as in many other fields ....we have absolutely no other option.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 01:55 AM

Kevin, the sentence you keep refering to is in no way, shape or form a "personal attack" - even Guest Shimrod acknowledges that - he describes it as scorn in responding to that particular post. The sentence you quote is an opinion on what someone has written, identifying no-one. Please explain Kevin how that could be construed as a "personal attack"? This by the way Kevin is an example of a personal attack - You Kevin, are an obtuse, hypocritical prat.

Transposition of posts? I believe I have only ever referred to one of Guest Shimrod's posts, which Guest Shimrod admits did contain a "personal attack" directed at me.

My apologies on the 10 years Kevin was correct in stating that the referendum will be not be held before 2010, putting it within Akenaton's 5 year time frame.

"I can only assume that you were trying to say that Shimrod started the abuse." - Akenaton

Keep up Akenaton the charge was not of "starting the abuse" but of mounting a "personal attack", and as stated above Guest Shimrod admitted that in responding to my post he did make a "personal attack" on me.

Yes indeed you did slander me, as to how you could possibly do that? Easily explained you are an overly politically motivated, bigotted clown who believes that the world owes you a living. dissembling is remarkably easy for you in order to explain the failings of the guiding lights that you follow. I note that you only own up to one of the slanders perpetrated, you conveniently omit to confessing that the comments "tough shit" and "YOUR problem" (which you altered to "their problem") related to your feelings of being "subservient", it had nothing whatever to do with "Scotlands" drug problem or people in general.

By the bye some facts that are not "shite" - The election results from the Glasgow East By-Election 18.2% of the electorate voted for SNP - that is roughly 1 in 5. The election results from the last Scottish Election - Roughly 1 in 5 voted of the electorate voted for the SNP. By all means bring on your referendum, my guest is that 4 in 5 will say NO. It doesn't take much of a crystal ball to see that Nu-Labour will be trounced at the next UK General Election, Gordon of cartoon has been an unmitigated disaster, as has been is time as Chancellor.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 03:28 AM

'you are an overly politically motivated, bigotted clown who believes that the world owes you a living. dissembling is remarkably easy for you in order to explain the failings of the guiding lights that you follow. I note that you only own up to one of the slanders perpetrated, you conveniently omit to confessing that the comments "tough shit" and "YOUR problem" (which you altered to "their problem") related to your feelings of being "subservient", it had nothing whatever to do with "Scotlands" drug problem or people in general.'


you say some nasty stuff Teribus. Would you say it to someones face? I admit in some cases you are responding to people. But at what age do you intend to learn a little restraint, diplomacy and civilised behaviour to your fellow men?

best wishes, but shaking my head in disbelief that you could write such things to Ake

al

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 04:11 AM

Thanks Al.....But I'm not surprised, thats the way bullies behave.
Teribus's use of language on this forum over the last few years has shown him to be a bully.
This behaviour usually surfaces when T finds himself "on a slippery slope"....as in this thread.

This thread might seem inconsequential to some, but to Teribus, the issues raised are very important indeed..He sees his ideology and precious way of life crumbling around him.
With the probable disintegration of the UK, Teribus faces coming to terms with living in a country which may start to bring some real socialist measures.
There is no guarantee that this WILL happen, but the very thought is enough to frighten the shit out of him.

It must also be extremely demoralising to have supported an Empire for so long, yet now see it crumble to dust.

We have lost so many young men over the years, to give meaning to an Empire which has now been shown to be a rickety facade.

My main reason for supporting Scottish Nationalism is not as Teribus says,... "political", but rather that Independence will mean that our sons and daughters will no longer serve and die in the interests of our leaders, or in the interests of a system which treats them with the utmost contempt.

Regardless of his language, I thank Teribus for his apology and accept that he may have made a genuine mistake.

I would try to explain my reference to his remarks concerning the poor of Glasgow, but too much time has been taken up here on personal details

Onward to Independence!!.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 04:55 AM

Al, I think you will find out on examination that in almost all cases I am responding to something someone else has said. As to saying some "nasty stuff", not half as nasty as has been directed my way, and for the record to date on this thread I have not made any personal attack on Guest Shimrod - A fact that he acknowledges.

Would I say such "face-to-face" if these discussions were held person - Most definitely, on the proviso that everyone else would hold to saying the same things, in exactly the same manner as they posted, which somehow I would doubt very much.

"I would try to explain my reference to his remarks concerning the poor of Glasgow, but too much time has been taken up here on personal details" - Akenaton

That would be some explanation Akenaton as you struggle to keep alive the myth that I ever made any remarks concerning the poor of Glasgow. I did make reference to the electorate of the Glasgow East constituency, 57.75% of them who couldn't be bother to vote. But at no time at all did I ever make any reference in the terms suggested by you to the poor of Glasgow. Now I believe that I have shown that I can own up to making a mistake - lets see if you are man enough to do the same. Do not ever put words into my mouth, or attribute to me views and opinions that I have patently not given - Do not state as fact things which only exist as your assumptions and opinions.

Onward to Independence!! - I very much doubt it, as I very much doubt that Salmond will call his referendum in 2010. The SNP must actually dread it, because irrespective of the results of the next Scottish Assembly elections, a referendum on Independence will decide if the SNP can continue to exist as a political party because that referendum will be a vote of support for that political party's core belief and aim - A fully independent Scotland. If the people of Scotland say NO, as I think they will, then the SNP have absolutely no mandate to Govern Scotland.

The result of the Glasgow East By-Election was and remains a typical example of a mid-term protest vote, in which the majority of the electorate refused to vote, and as such it signifies absolutely nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 07:05 AM

Yes but it is the most effective or the most seemly response for a man of mature years, Teribus old pal?

Just read through the passage I highlighted again. see what I mean....?

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 07:46 AM

The SNP's core aspiration can equally be stated as being to bring the Scottish people to demand independence. Losing a referendum wouldn't mean that needed to change.   Any mandate to rule would be based on winning an election, an entirely different matter.

As for teh other matter "I suppose it's all down to how we interpret the term "personal attack". There's Glory for you...

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 08:40 AM

Ake - Teribus is not bullying you. He's going off on one. Like those old men you see eating a pasty and shouting with a dog in a pram.

I wish you wouldn't provoke him. Its not nice.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 12:21 PM

" ... and for the record to date on this thread I have not made any personal attack on Guest Shimrod - A fact that he acknowledges."

Hhhhmmm - stretching a point a bit there, Tezza, old mate. Your scorn felt like a personal attack - which is why I abandoned my usual decorum and opted for the savage groin kick ...

Still, something good has come out of this undignified scuffle - at least we now know how to wind up a Tory 'right-steamer'!

Nevertheless, I'm a bit bored with this now.

Best of luck to the Scots, by the way - let's hope that they make the right choices.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 12:31 PM

Well Al, it all depends upon who, and what, you are responding to doesn't it.

To Guest Shimrod - I responded by giving my opinion of what he stated in his post, and I did that without resorting to any "personal attack". The only person so far to view it as such has been MGOH (Akenaton viewed it as being "verbal abuse" and Guest Shimrod himself viewed it as being "scorn")

Now Al, How would you respond to someone who tells you, "f**k you!!" or tells you that you are "an a**ehole"? Does that rank as being a "personal attack"? Guest Shimrod seems to think so, but somehow MGOH, and the rest of the "gang", including yourself Al, somehow think that it does not.

Have I told anybody on this forum where, or not, they could live? Have I ever told anyone on this forum where they would be welcome or not? What would be your response to that Al?

What about someone who deliberately "misquotes" what you have said, places those "misquoted" words or phrases completely out of context and applies them to a subject that you, yourself have not even mentioned, then berates you for making them. Tell me Al, how would you respond to that?

I liked your description; "Like those old men you see eating a pasty and shouting with a dog in a pram." - Although it sits better when applied to Akenaton, than it does to me. I'll stick with my opinion of Akenaton formed over the years we have posted to this forum:

"an overly politically motivated, bigotted clown who believes that the world owes him a living."

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 01:23 PM

"" ... and for the record to date on this thread I have not made any personal attack on Guest Shimrod - A fact that he acknowledges."

Hhhhmmm - stretching a point a bit there, Tezza, old mate. Your scorn felt like a personal attack - which is why I abandoned my usual decorum and opted for the savage groin kick ..." - Guest Shimrod (05 Aug 08 - 12:21 PM)

Really?? Tell me you did post the following on 01 Aug 08 - 10:33 AM didn't you, or was it someone else using your Guest Name?

"Yes, my initial post was intemperate, McGrath - thanks for pointing that out. Although I strongly believe that it is entirely appropriate to display such intemperance when discussing 'modern' business practices. I do not regret posting that message and I stand by every word.

Nevertheless, the subsequent post from Teribus was (predictably) scornful and I reacted against that scorn by flinging personal abuse."

Not much of a stretch at all I would say Guest Shimrod "I reacted against that scorn", why no mention of personal attack in that post where you are clearly addressing MGOH's point.

Of course, I am looking for a bit of honesty and a bit of integrity, looking in the wrong place though eh Guest Shimrod - "Solidarity Brothers" the truth can look after itself. What was it you so disliked about "modern management methods and practices" again Shimrod? Certainly rubbed off on you.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 01:34 PM

Yes I have seen personal attacks on you Teribus, and I have thought they were designed to be hurtful.

But its your response that worries me.

lets face we're all 'of an age'.

You ain't going to persuade me to vote tory, and I doubt very much whether I will convince you that Gordon Brown is the best of a bad lot.

The best any of us is going to do is wrench from the other one a concession - maybe you've got a point.....

Every bit of abuse is a step with ten league boots away from the likelihood of that. All this apopleptic rage is doing you no good and its very unpersuasive.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 01:46 PM

"eating a pasty"? What the hell is a pasty? I thought they were those little things they used to stick on strippers' nipples in the old days, only I think those were spelled "pasties", weren't they?

Nevertheless, the sentence "Like those old men you see eating a pasty and shouting with a dog in a pram" does manage to convey what it is intended to, and in a pretty amusing way I must say. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Stu
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 01:49 PM

mmmm . . . pasties.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 02:35 PM

Oh, I see.

And the dog is a little yappy dog like a Yorkshire Terrier, I presume? Dressed in a little knitted sweater and cap? And the bewhiskered old gent is pushing the little beastie about in a pram so it won't get its little footsies wet? And he's yelling petulantly at passersby who he thinks are getting in the way of his "precious"?

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 03:32 PM

"an overly politically motivated, bigotted clown who believes that the world owes him a living."

Well Teribus I suppose we are all clowns...biting and snapping at one another, while in reality knowing almost nothing about those we berate.
In what way do you find me bigotted Teribus? I am not racist or sectarian or any other type of bigot that I can think of.
I certainly would not call you a bigot Teribus, although we disagree stronly about most things.
You say that I believe the world owes me a living.
How so?...I work as hard as a man half my age, can't remember my last holiday, claim no benefits or rebates...and pay my taxes.

"Overly politically motivated" Hah thats a laugh coming from someone who has so vociferously defended Capitalism and its stinking wars.
In fact,you seem to have quite a good grasp of Capitalist politics

Pity your grasp of what is actually happening in your native country is so poor.....Get out and smell the coffee T, the ground is shifting beneath your feet, the sky is falling,as you sleepwalk to another Tory victory. Don't you know that a Tory victory in 2 yrs will be political suicide for your invincible United Kingdom?

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 05:07 PM

That's right Little Hawk something like a Yorkshire Terrier or possibly a snappy little dog like a Dachshund. Now I have never owned either but you on the other hand, Little Hawk??

For WLD - "Yes I have seen personal attacks on you Teribus, and I have thought they were designed to be hurtful."

But never felt moved to go into print to pull anybody up on them eh Al? But you felt compelled to pull me up on something that never was - the supposed "personal attack" on Guest Shimrod. Now that is interesting Big Al, says volumes about you.

Another member on this forum, alanabit once asked me why it is I dislike "socialists" in general. I'll tell you why Big Al, because generally they are liars, they are dissemblers, they will tell whatever lie, they will look the other way and deny and ignore every fault brought to light within whatever system it is that they support and happens to be flavour of the month. When it fails as it inevitably does, it is dismissed as having not been truly "socialist" and the next band wagon is leapt upon and the cycle is repeated, and the poor fools who believed the lies they had been told sit back and swallow it all hook-line-and-sinker yet again.

Such systems promise much and deliver little - ask the constituents of Glasgow East - Ask Akenaton when was Glasgow East last represented by a Unionist MP? - Ask Akenaton when Glasgow or Strathclyde was last controlled by a Conservative or Unionist Council? - So you tell me who it was that let the people of Glasgow East down, it wasn't the "Unionists" it was a crowd of Labour dinosaurs who promised everybody a return to the "good old days" in traditional industries that were dead, priced out of the market by trade Union bickering and demarcation disputes.

In his "Glasgow earthquake" thread Akenaton has been repeatedly asked a very simple question by me and has so far refused to answer it. Very difficult to convince anyone that the political scene in a country is going to change overnight, or that the ground is going to change under one's feet when the political party being talked about only has the support of 20% of the electorate. Far easier to deflect the question and mither on about things that Teribus is supposed to have said but in actual fact hasn't.

If "socialism" is represented by the likes of those who have posted to this thread, Little Hawk, Akenaton, Richard Bridge, MGOH, Stigweard and yourself WLD, then God help it. Not an indication of any real back-bone, honesty or integrity to be found in any of you, the lot of you are more to be pitied than censured.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 05:23 PM

I've never actually owned one either, Teribus. It's my aged mother who owns the dachshund(s). I speak of them as "my" dogs on this forum just to simplify the discussion some. She has owned a whole series of them over the past 5 decades. They're hilarious creatures. ;-) Most of the ones she has had weren't snappy at all, but I recall one that was a bit that way. He has shuffled on to the great beyond.

I don't think socialists are as bad as what you say. Not when you get to actually know them as other human beings rather than political foes. There probably is the odd socialist who is a real bastard, mind you, but that's true with the odd dachshund too. It doesn't apply across the board.

You shouldn't be so judgemental of whole categories of people and animals, just on the basis of some superficial disagreements you have had over something. It generates more ill will than it deserves. Look on the humorous side for once, man. We will all be dead and in our graves shortly and other vainglorious people very similar to you and I will be bitching and blathering endlessly about all this political hoo-ha and the world will keep turning just fine without any of us. I see little need to get so utterly bloody serious about this stuff all the time.

Sure, you've got your opinions. I've got mine. Akenation has his.

So what???? What's the big deal?

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 05:23 PM

Labour MPs may or may not be dinosaurs - but the one thing you can guarantee they are is "unionists".   The Labour Party is committed to preserving the Union, as is the Liberal Party and the Conservative Party.
...............

"things that Teribus is supposed to have said but in actual fact hasn't." Such as an invented and false assertion about "10 years"...

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 05:53 PM

"they will look the other way and deny and ignore every fault brought to light within whatever system it is that they support"

That seems an excellent description of your own ideology T.
I have never heard you admit one fault in the Capitalist system.
Will you defend your insulting remarks to me, or are they just a jumble of meaningless abuse?

What you fail to understand is that the Glasgow East contest was not a general election, it was a by-election, which traditionally receive a much lower voter turn out than a general election.
the last GE in Glasgow East polled approx 45%, while the BE polled approx 42%. An excellent turnout for a seat like Glasgow East in a By-election. Without the new impetous of the Nationalists, the turnout would have been of the order of 25%.
I repeat, to overturn a majority of 13000, in such a solid Labour seat, in such a short time, is a good gauge of the current performance of the Nats.

However even if the Nats had not been carrying all before them, the certain victory of Cameron in Westminster allied to the ineffectivness of the Scottish Labour Party will mean the Nationalists taking full power in Scotland by default.

You have been a man once already today Teribus, make it a double by admitting that the Scots are fit and ready to run their own affairs.

McGrath is correct As long as the Nationalists are in power they will keep asking the question. I expect a Yes for independence on the first ballot but if that is not achieved, the question will be asked again and again, until either the Nats are removed from office or get the answer they require.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 06:39 PM

Typical MGOH:

"Far easier to deflect the question and mither on about things that Teribus is supposed to have said but in actual fact hasn't."

Gets fired back at me as:

"things that Teribus is supposed to have said but in actual fact hasn't." Such as an invented and false assertion about "10 years"..."

I do believe I acknowledged that as being an error on my part Kevin - Or did you miss that, was that fact inconvenient to whatever point it was that you wished to make?

Now Kevin give me a quote as to when I said "Tough Shit" to the problems of the poor people of Glasgow as I was accused of saying??

Give me a quote as to when I said "their problem" to the problems of the poor people of Glasgow as I was accused of saying??

Give me a quote as to when I described the poor people of Glasgow as apathetic "couldnae-gie-a-fuck-wasters" as I was accused of saying??

Socialistically selective as ever Kevin - Proves my point magnificently.

"You have been a man once already today Teribus, make it a double by admitting that the Scots are fit and ready to run their own affairs."

And you Akenaton, along with some others mentioned here previously have proved that they are not. Admit that "the Scots are fit and ready to run their own affairs", of course they are, they've been running the United Kingdom's for long enough - Only problem is Akenaton 80% of the "Scots" as you define them have indicated fairly clearly that they don't want to.

The other trouble is that you for some reason see and think of "Capitalism" as a political system - It's not - that was also the same misconception that the Communists had of it. Capitalism is a system of economics that is in itself extremely flexible and capable of adaptation to suit whatever political climate - Ask the Chinese Akenaton, or at least those allowed the privelege of being "Party Members" that is, they are doing rather well out of it at the moment.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 07:09 PM

Recipe for haggis from this BBC page:

Preparation time overnight. Cooking time over 2 hours. Serves 4-6

Ingredients
1 sheep's stomach or ox caecum, cleaned and thoroughly, scalded, turned inside out and soaked overnight in cold salted water
heart and lungs of one lamb
450g/1lb beef or lamb trimmings, fat and lean
2 onions, finely chopped
225g/8oz oatmeal
1 tbsp salt
1 tsp ground black pepper
1 tsp ground dried coriander
1 tsp mace
1 tsp nutmeg
water, enough to cook the haggis
stock from lungs and trimmings

Method
1. Wash the lungs, heart and liver (if using). Place in large pan of cold water with the meat trimmings and bring to the boil. Cook for about 2 hours.
2. When cooked, strain off the stock and set the stock aside.
3. Mince the lungs, heart and trimmings.
4. Put the minced mixture in a bowl and add the finely chopped onions, oatmeal and seasoning. Mix well and add enough stock to moisten the mixture. It should have a soft crumbly consistency.
5. Spoon the mixture into the sheep's stomach, so it's just over half full. Sew up the stomach with strong thread and prick a couple of times so it doesn't explode while cooking.
6. Put the haggis in a pan of boiling water (enough to cover it) and cook for 3 hours without a lid. Keep adding more water to keep it covered.
7. To serve, cut open the haggis and spoon out the filling. Serve with neeps (mashed swede or turnip) and tatties (mashed potatoes).

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 08:08 PM

I'm not 'pulling you up'. I just don't think you will persuade anyone by calling them an arsehole - in so many words. I don't think its much good as a response or a debating tactic.

And in fact I have voiced my disquiet about some of the stuff that gets bandied about in these discussions. Usually in PM's admittedly. I don't want to go into specific instances - but yes, I have asked people not to continue certain humdingers. Once or twice, people have said to me - this is getting a bit scary and pulled out of these debates.

Carry on if it makes you happy. But I don't see how it can. If it seems to you the way to go - so be it!

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 10:32 PM

Very good answer Kevin.

While your on about food here's another from the same website:

TRIPE

Peel and chop the onion and cook in the water until tender. Cut up the tripe and add to the onion. Simmer it very gently for about 10 mins and then strain. Finely dice or mince the tripe and onion. Melt the butter in a pan, add the flour and cook for a few seconds. Pour on the tripe liquor, stirring all the time and boil for a few minutes. Season to taste, add the tripe and onion, pour in the milk and bring slowly to the boil. Serves two.


Your recipe
Tripe soup
1/4 lb pre-cooked tripe
1/2 oz butter
1/2 oz flour
Seasoning
1 Onion
Half pint milk
Half pint water

Another one that might be applicable Kevin - Kippers - Normal appearance yellow, two-faced and gutless.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 03:16 AM

A LITTLE INFORMATION FOR THE UN-INFORMED!

20% my arse!


41% AND COUNTING TERIBUS! 19% UNDECIDED.


Time to pack your pyjamas, get your running shoes on and high tail it for the border...:0) If you are indeed from the Hawick area, you might just make it before the declaration....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 03:55 AM

At the other end of the spectrum. Different wording.

HERE
48% against.....36% for...16% unsure.

BUT... This was before the massive swing in Glasgow East.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 04:25 AM

Ah Opinion Polls now count and actually prove something do they?

I'll believe it when I see it Akenaton, hard evidence of actual voting returns still puts it at 20% for 80% against.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 05:01 AM

The vote in Glasgow East which you cite was not on whether or not Scotland should be Independent.
You have also skewed the figures(your figures)
You assume that the fifty-eight percent who did not vote would all have been anti-independence.

All the polls are now saying that the numbers in favour of Independence are rising steadily.The poll I linked to from the Guardian(I think) is about the lowest with 34% in favour, 16% unsure.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Stu
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 05:54 AM

"The other trouble is that you for some reason see and think of "Capitalism" as a political system - It's not . . ."

Well, not in the traditional sense it isn't, but unregulated capitalism has become synonymous with 'democracy' in modern political parlance and any challenge or attempt to curb the excesses of capitalism is greeted as some sort of affront to people's freedoms.

Capitalism as a system of economics is failing due to inability to regulate itself. The continuing slide towards the tipping point when climate change becomes irreversible (100 months!) will continue because capitalism isn't interested in the common interest, but simply satisfying shareholders, and that means short-term profits over long-term welfare.

Of course, it's the poorest people who suffer first and foremost, as usual.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 06:01 AM

"The vote in Glasgow East which you cite was not on whether or not Scotland should be Independent."

Very true, equally true is that it was an opportunity for the electorate of Glasgow East to vote for the political party that espouses Scottish independence. It was an opportunity for the electorate of Glasgow East to demonstrate their support for Scottish independence. The support demonstrated and translated into votes on the day amounted to 18.2% of the electorate - Roughly 1 in 5.

"You have also skewed the figures(your figures) You assume that the fifty-eight percent who did not vote would all have been anti-independence."

Not at all, the voting returns for the Glasgow East constituency shows that when given the opportunity to vote for the SNP, the electorate of that Constituency chose as follows:

- 57.75% of them couldn't be bothered to vote at all, i.e. not interested in the political process at all, not even in the interests of Scottish independence. Nothing assumed about that at all Akenaton.

- 24.05% of them voted for political parties other than the SNP.

- 18.2% voted for the SNP.

Voice of the people eh?? Earthquake LOL!

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 06:40 AM

"The other trouble is that you for some reason see and think of "Capitalism" as a political system - It's not . . ." (Teribus)

"Well, not in the traditional sense it isn't, but unregulated capitalism has become synonymous with 'democracy' in modern political parlance....." - Stigweard

No Stigweard, not in "modern political parlance", it has in the "modern political parlance of the extreme left". But I am pleased to see that you recognise, as your fellow traveller Akenaton does not, that "capitalism" is not a political system.

Stigweard, as a self confessed "marxist", what is your view on China's recent acceptance and adoption of "capitalism"? And believe me Stigweard, there is absolutely no way on earth that I would ever describe "The People's Republic of China" as being "democratic".

"Capitalism as a system of economics is failing due to inability to regulate itself." - Stigweard

Anything at all to back that statement up? Or as a marxist is this just you voicing a long and dearly held wish?

So "capitalism" is the source of "global warming" and climate change is it Stigweard. Funny that seeing as China is the greatest polluter on earth and a non-signatory of the Kyoto Agreement.

If "capitalism" is the source it will also provide the solutions. One thing is certain "marxism" will not, the "Party Elite" will be too busy suppresing the masses to notice the increase in temperature.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Stu
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 07:39 AM

"Stigweard, as a self confessed "marxist", what is your view on China's recent acceptance and adoption of "capitalism"?"

Good question.

For one thing, China pays lip service to Marx and Engels as the founding fathers of Communism but practice something entirely different. China has long been a brutal dictatorship ruled by a privileged elite, which as you say has been long opposed to democracy. China is not an example of Marxism (or Communism as conceived by it's creators) in practice - it's an example of oppression and enslavement in practice. I think Marx would be horrified to see the working citizens of China being treated as they have been over the years, and as they continue to be.

The adoption of capitalism in recent years has led ordinary Chinese to believe they are experiencing freedom, when they are in fact experiencing consumerism; they are still subject to censorship and other tools of state oppression and have no say in the running of their country. Combined with this oppressive police state, capitalism shows it's true colours; as in the rest of China workers on the new Olympic stadium have no rights at all, no health and safety etc. In some senses, it the capitalist system in it's rawest form and isn't pretty to look at, as it freely pollutes the local environment and displaces those who live where these factories are built. Profit over people.

Those working to death in the laogais and state factories with no protection or workers rights are the living proof that without regulation capitalism serves no-one but the board and shareholders - this is as far away from what Marx and Engels envisaged as it's possible to get.

China is a nightmare waiting to happen. As you say, not signed up to Kyoto, significant human rights issues across the board, bringing it's exclusive brand of

"So "capitalism" is the source of "global warming" and climate change is it Stigweard"

Whether it's the source or not is irrelevant; it's the fact unregulated capitalist economies can't provide the solutions because they only respond to market forces, and market forces are not interested in what's good for individuals and society as a whole. There is no collective responsibility.

I'm not against capitalism per se, but I believe it needs to be regulated, and I would start by returning the machinery of state to the people, reclaim the infrastructure and essential services from the private sector and review how we operate these systems.

You ask me to back the statement of capitalism failing to regulate itself - where do you want to start? Well, let's take healthcare. I've worked in med comms for years (full of state-trained doctors who have abandoned clinical practice), and my wife worked in the NHS for 14 years before she had enough. The slow privatisation of healthcare in this country has left many people (including myself) utterly unable to afford to be treated adequately for a massive range of problems. Clinical heads of department have given way to a new breed of staff whose main aim is not benefit of the patient or the quality of service offered to them, but the financial implications of the decisions for the Trust. Meeting targets is now the priority.

Even in the private sector this application of capitialist principles to patient care is having an effect; a friend told me this morning in the private hospital where she works the main source of income (and focus for the company running it) is stomach stapling operations for obese people who can't be arsed to diet - because they'll pay.

Regulation is the key.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 08:01 AM

Ah yes, kippers (what a charming touch of "non-personal" invective from our friend there...). Here's a song I once wrote about kippers:

Kippers by Post

As I walked out in Whitby, on a fine summer's day
I thought of my true love, so far far away.
"I'll send her a present from the fair Yorkshire coast
a token of love to the one I love most.
Flowers they would wither, they'd fade like some ghost
Oh what shall I send to the one I love most?
         
So I walked up and down, up and down, up and down -
For Whitby, you know, is that kind of a town.
"Oh what shall I send to the one I love most?"
And the shoplady said, "Send her Kippers by Post".
(Chorus)Kippers by Post from the fair Yorkshire coast,
A token of love she can treasure and toast.
Flowers they would wither, they'd fade like some ghost,
But she'll always remember those Kippers by Post.

When she opened the parcel and saw what was there,
Well, first she turned pale, and then she turned queer.
And then she turned clever - she's smarter than most -
And she turned and tucked into those Kippers by Post.

Well, you ask me what happened. Now I wasn't quite sure,
For she looked very fierce when she opened the door.
Then she says "My fine fellow - go right back to your coast.
And send us some more of those Kippers by Post.

Well, we'll always remember, we'll never forget,
There's a trace of those kippers, it's still with us yet.
And if we're down in spirits, it's as good as a dose -
we send right away for those Kippers by Post.
Kippers by Post, from the fair Yorkshire coast,
A token of love you can treasure and toast.
Flowers they would wither, they'd fade like some ghost,
But we'll always remember those Kippers by Post.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 08:31 AM

First part of your post Stigweard - repetition of the expanation when "socialist" experiments go wrong - not "real "socialism" - "China is not an example of Marxism (or Communism as conceived by it's creators) in practice - it's an example of oppression and enslavement in practice." That oddly enough goes for every "communist government that ever set up shop to dupe the general population with its "socialist" myths.

"You ask me to back the statement of capitalism failing to regulate itself" - No I most certainly did not Stigweard, as you well know.

The question related to the sweeping statement of yours that "Capitalism" as a system is failing - Got news for you - Its not, it still remains to be the economic system that powers the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 08:37 AM

Correction****   Destroys the world!

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Stu
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 09:29 AM

""You ask me to back the statement of capitalism failing to regulate itself" - No I most certainly did not Stigweard, as you well know."

Er, what's this then?

""Capitalism as a system of economics is failing due to inability to regulate itself." - Stigweard

Anything at all to back that statement up? Or as a marxist is this just you voicing a long and dearly held wish?"

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 10:24 AM

I'm getting confused with all the back and forth cut and paste. Is anyone "winning" yet? ;-) (laughing in my sleeve here...)

Geez, I'm glad I don't really take all this stuff that seriously or I'd be under a real strain waiting to see how it turns out.

Akenaton, do me a favour. Send me a PM when this contentious thread finally ends and let me know if Teribus ever succeeded in utterly crushing and destroying the egos of any of his various political opponents here with a simply devastating and of course pitying assault on their many personal failures and character flaws (achieved by his carefully searching through all the past posts they have ever made on this forum plus any PMs they ever sent him in order to find some supposedly vulnerable chink in their emotional armour). (Aha! Mr "T" chuckles gleefully and grins a wicked grin. "This will fix that socialist swine!") Let me know if anyone was driven to hang himself in the closet or seek counseling as a result of that, okay?

It will save me the lengthy time needed to monitor things here on a daily basis.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Stu
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 11:01 AM

A bit more cut and paste for you LH : )

"Geez, I'm glad I don't really take all this stuff that seriously or I'd be under a real strain waiting to see how it turns out."

Nothing like the rough and tumble of a bit of robust debate! Good for the constitution.

"pitying assault on their many personal failures and character flaws"

I'm an Aston Villa fan - does that count?

"Let me know if Teribus ever succeeded in utterly crushing and destroying the egos of any of his various political opponents"

If he did crush us then who would he have to direct his ire at?

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 02:25 PM

"I'm an Aston Villa fan - does that count?"

Oh...you poor, poor man. I...I hardly know what to say. Have you considered....euthanasia?

"If he did crush us then who would he have to direct his ire at?"

Good point! I've wondered about that myself. That's why I keep talking to him from time to time, in fact. I don't want him to feel abandoned. Any attention is better than none at all, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 05:28 PM

This was always going to be a difficult seat for the Nationalists to win, having to overcome a massive Labour majority with an electorate demoralised by decades of neglect from successive Unionist administrations(both Labour and Conservative), that more than half of them would not vote at all.
That the SNP achieved a victory in these circumstances is astonishing.

You still try to spin the result to look as if all the non-voters were anti-Independence, when it is much more likely that these non-voters have been alienated by the decades of Unionist neglect referred to above.

I don't normally put much faith in opinion polls as a guide to the policies or strengths of the respective political parties, but the polls I have linked to, require only simple yes/no/don'tknow answers and should prove to be reasonably accurate.

According to most commentators, the timescale for full Independence is now within 10 years...I would stick to my prediction of 5 given the momentum carried by Salmond and his Party and with the added impetous of the victory in Glasgow East.

A sample of current comment

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 08:53 PM

Another nail in the coffin of the United Kingdom looks likely.

The death of sitting Labour MP John McDougall in Glenrothes, means another by election is to be held there in November.

Labour is defending a 10,000 votes majority in Glenrothes, which is right next door to the seat held by prime minister Gordon Brown.
Regardless of the size of the Labour majority, the bookmakers make the Scottish Nationalists 1/4 to win the seat.
A victory for the Nationalists in Glenrothes would mean a voting swing of over 15%....so much for Teribus's "just a mid term protest vote".... in reference to the Glasgow East result.

I will update this thread regularly, to keep members posted on the "last days of the UK" ......Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 03:32 AM

Even if the Nationlists win (and I hope they do - anything to see Labour embarrassed) both seats will almost certainly return to Labour at a General Election. The history of by-elections is full of 'shock' results that mean nothing in the long term.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 03:44 AM

I hereby register my protest at Scotland's base ingratitude to Gordon for not being a tory.

I will only drink Irish whisky from now on. And as for those bloody shortbead biscuits, you can stick 'em up your kilt!

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 09:59 AM

the Irish dont make Whisky, only Whiskey.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 11:51 AM

someone sould point out this hole in the market to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 11:18 AM

with vvirtually the same equipment they could make the stuff without and 'e' in it. Flog it a few quid cheaper - pass on the savng of leaving out the 'e'.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 04:24 PM

Just an update on the lingering death of the Good ole UK.

Although a date has yet to be set for the Glenrothes By-election, bookmakers have the Scottish Nationalists as red hot favourites to overturn a 10,000 Labour majority.

Polls from the constituency are showing a massive swing to SNP a victory of 5000 is being quoted.
It is widely believed that if the UK Labour Party lose this seat, then Mr Brown will be forced to stand down as UK Prime Minister.

The result of this election should silence Teribus's jibe that Glasgow East was a "Mid term protest vote"

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 07:03 PM

Very entertaining thread. Some of it reminded me forcefully that I do not understand the clever use of irony, satire and just plain tongue-in-cheek-ness. The only thing that comes through clearly is that real affection is being expressed, such as with: "Not an indication of any real back-bone, honesty or integrity to be found in any of you, the lot of you are more to be pitied than censured."

I plan to utilize that little gem as soon as the moment presents itself.

But this one I am most fond of: "Another one that might be applicable Kevin - Kippers - Normal appearance yellow, two-faced and gutless." Ah! Bless us all! That nuance I do understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 10:37 AM

Refresh

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 12:57 PM

"Polls from the constituency (Glenrothes) are showing a massive swing to SNP a victory of 5000 is being quoted." - Akenaton.

"The result of this election (Glenrothes) should silence Teribus's jibe that Glasgow East was a "Mid term protest vote" - Akenaton

Well didn't quite turn out that way did it Ake?? And guess what percentage of the total electorate in the constituency voted SNP Akenaton - 19%, which sort of confirms their earlier performances - 22% in Scottish Assembly elections; 18.2% in Glasgow East and now 19% in Glenrothes - that also backs up what I said before only 1 person in 5 in Scotland supports SNP when given the opportunity.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Jim McLean
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 05:42 AM

In spite Brown's appearance, breaking with convention, and bringing up the big guns coupled with some negative campaigning, some of which were down right lies, plus the credit crunch which could be seen as Brown's Falklands,the SNP increased its share of the vote by over 60% and there was a swing to them from Labour of nearly 5%. I would consider this a great achievement.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 05:56 AM

Doesn't alter the fact that when given the opportunity to vote for the Scottish Nationalist Party and it's Independence agenda only one person in five of those eligible to vote do so.

If the "Nats" really believe that Scotland supports their cause then have a referendum on it - then abide by the result. I have no doubt whatsoever that the result would be a resounding NO to independence.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Rasener
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 05:58 AM

This all gets on my tits.
I wish the Scots would get independance, they seem to get everything else.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 06:04 AM

Yup, one of those lovely ironies - given the chance, the English would vote for Scots independence but the Scots would reject it.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Jim McLean
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 07:11 AM

Teribus, it's the people who actually vote who should be recognised, not those eligible. If we get into a statistics discussion we could show many examples where a small percentage of those eligible to vote in UK elections decided the outcome. I would agree that the majority of Scots would reject total independence at the moment. It will take time to instill more confidence in the Scottish people. After all a Scottish 'Parliament' would have been considered impossible just a few years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Rasener
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 07:27 AM

Maybe Brown is being groomed to become Scotland's Prime Minister. If that happens, I sure hope he does a better job than down in England.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 06 May 11 - 05:24 PM

Ah well....perhaps a little delayed, but the "earthquake" has enveloped the whole country.
Mr Salmond and his Nationalists have swept to power in a "landslide"
Labour and Liberals have been wiped out over the whole of Scotland

Mr Salmond has also promised a referendum on whether or not Scotland should leave the UK......we are on the move.....no more shameful wars.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Jim McLean
Date: 07 May 11 - 06:02 AM

It was interesting to hear comments from some people who voted SNP but didn't want Independence (Election to the Scottish parliament, 2011). Many answers were in the line of "we're too poor" and "we couldn't have coped with the bank crash" but it has to be pointed out that Scotland does not have full fiscal control. Norway escaped the full force of the the global economic collapse by having control of its North Sea oil revenue and handling it wisely. The Westminster government squandered the money and once the Scottish people realise we have a rich country (sending more to the UK coffers in tax than we receive back in a block grant) then Independence is on the cards. Salmond is right to wait a couple of years before a referendum, hoping to raise the confidence level of the Scotish people.
Another cry one hears from English Labour is that without the Scottish Labour MPs, England could have a permament Tory majority. This is called democracy and it's up to the English people to decide who governs them, not rely on Scottish Labour voters.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Gutcher
Date: 07 May 11 - 10:56 AM

Anent a Scottish referendum
Our southern neighbours may not be aware of the fact but here in Scotland sovereignty lies with the people, not with the Crown or
the Westminster government.
This was confirmed in a court ruling in the early 1950s and as far as I am aware this is still the legal position and has been for many centuries.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 07 May 11 - 09:27 PM

Boy - this BIG NEWS was buried deep.

There was a temptation to start a new thread.

The relationships between current royal affairs and banking and Scotland and the election.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

What shalt the new currency be called?

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 08 May 11 - 03:36 AM

Big news indeed Gargoyle.

This massive vote of confidence given to Mr Salmond and his team, puts a completely different slant on the replacement of Trident and the use of nuclear power to provide energy to Scotland.

Maybe at last we will begin to recognise the need to reduce energy production if we are to survive

Mr Salmond has plans for wind, hydro and wave energy production, but most importantly we must be convinced of the need for energy reduction.....with all the far reaching effects that it will have on how future society will be constructed.
I think and hope that the Scottish people are becoming sick of "consumerism" and the reducing of our young people to lifelong redundancy......the inspiration of serving our own historic nation may break the mould of the "we just couldn't give a fuck" ideology.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Gutcher
Date: 08 May 11 - 07:49 AM

Since the events in Japan when the dangers of having nuclear power stations was exposed, given that they have to be situated close to a plentiful supply of water, many people have stated that an earthquake of such a magnitude could not happen in Europe..These people either do not know or choose to ignore that a tragedy of a greater magnitude wiped out Lisbon in the year 1755 killing in the immediate area 30000 to 40000 people with thousands more in the wider area.
A five foot high wave hit the eastern seaboard of the Americas and strangest of all a ten foot high wave swept the length of Loch Ness, an inland loch in Scotland.
Long may the SNP oppose the siting of these lethal structures on our soil and when we finally regain full control of our own affairs the first step should be the removal of the weapons of mass destruction from the Clyde estuary.
It will be interesting to watch the infighting among the NIMBYS among our southern neighbours, who support nuclear WMD, when this comes to pass, we having being given no choice in the siting of these WMD in the first instance.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 11 May 11 - 03:04 AM

Teribus...."Doesn't alter the fact that when given the opportunity to vote for the Scottish Nationalist Party and it's Independence agenda only one person in five of those eligible to vote do so."

I would be interested to hear your views on the Scottish political landscape post election, T.

What a great chance for Scots to inject some positive elements into modern society, but we must not fall into the trap of thinking that independence will provide a "free meal ticket".

Given inspiration any thing is possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 11 May 11 - 11:26 AM

Although the Scots concept of Sovereignty is indeed that it resides in the people, it was dispiriting to hear MSPs (Members of the Scottish Parliament) taking an oath of fealty to the current Queen and to her heirs and successors. Mind you, as Thomas Paine put it, the difference between a republican and a courtier is that one of them "thinks Monarchy IS something; the other knows that it is nothing" (but knows that his own self-interest demands that the "juggle" be kept going).

The Scottish National Party, even with a minority administration during the previous term, managed to put through a number of measures which have demonstrably been to the benefit of many people, among the most prominent being a progressive reduction and then cancellation of "prescription fees", thus bringing the National Health Service closer to the intention of Beveridge and Bevan than any UK government did during the last half-century.   What they will achieve with an absolute majority is for the future to see and The People of Scotland to judge (I capitalize that phrase because almost every sentence spoken by a politician here contains it at least once!).

I see it's nearly three years since I wrote (above) about how here in Scotland we have to argue for Indepedence whereas every other nation recognises this as the proper way of things; no doubt there will be much bleating of the "too poor a country to make it on our own" variety in the next three. As Edward Said put it, in any colonised country there's always an elite which identifies its interests as lying with the colonizer rather than the rest of the population. As Steve Biko put it, among the most effective weapons an oppressor has is the mind of the oppressed. As someone - perhaps a voter questioned by a journalist - put it during this election campaign, the SNP has already "done no' bad", which in Scottish terms is high praise indeed. Aye, we're a dour folk.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Jim McLean
Date: 11 May 11 - 11:51 AM

Have a look here The big lie

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 12 May 11 - 11:08 AM

Many thanks, Jim McLean. These facts and figures should be publicized again and again. The manipulation (to put it mildly) with regard to revenue from oil in the North Sea was one of the reasons Jim Sillars left the Labour Party some thirty years ago, once he'd risen to a "salary grade" which made him privy to knowledge of this particular deception.

On another tack, I saw Jeremy Paxman on BBC last night being characteristically rude to Nicola Sturgeon (he's a particularly abrasive television journalist, in the Robin Day mould, she's the Deputy leader of the S.N.P.). Among other things, she was asked about whether an independent Scotland would be a Monarchy. To my own disappointment (although I know it's long been the position of the S.N.P.) she said it would, that the current Queen would continue as Head of State, whereupon Paxman interrupted again, saying, "Have you asked her?" The notion that any territory would willingly be surrendered by any member of this most rapacious, mean, vulgar, contemptible nest of usurpers is in itself laughable.

The issue of currency also arose (whether Scotland would retain the Pound Sterling or change to the Euro). In this regard, as long ago as 2002 or 2003, I was told, in casual conversation, by a Japanese Economic Analyst or Advisor or Policy-Maker or Strategist (etc.), that the majority opinion among businesses she dealt with was that Scotland would be using the Euro before England. Interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 12 May 11 - 11:52 AM

"Onward to Independence!! - I very much doubt it, as I very much doubt that Salmond will call his referendum in 2010. The SNP must actually dread it, because irrespective of the results of the next Scottish Assembly elections, a referendum on Independence will decide if the SNP can continue to exist as a political party because that referendum will be a vote of support for that political party's core belief and aim - A fully independent Scotland. If the people of Scotland say NO, as I think they will, then the SNP have absolutely no mandate to Govern Scotland.

Said back in 2008 and guess what?? There was no Referendum on independence as promised. No real need to worry there because that is now the established norm from "Professional" Politicians, there have been a number of very significant and important promises to hold referenda on equally significant and vitally important issues and all promises have been universally ignored and reneged upon.

I look forward with interest to see if Mr.Salmond will deliver on his promised referendum on Independence in the life of THIS Parliament - Let's just say I am not holding my breath.

The sums do not look good, yet with his "majority" Alex Salmond has to deliver in the real world, my guess it will be a complete and utter unmitigated disaster. The greatest obstacle to Scottish Independence? Peoples memories of the Royal Bank of Scotland and the Bank of Scotland and what would have happened had Scotland been "Independent" when they crashed. Judging by their manifesto (SNP's that is) financially astute they are not, here's hoping they do get the powers they say they need - They will make a complete and utter arse of it and drive away business as most have predicted, no problem to the likes of Ake et al, they never intended working in this newly Independent Scotland anyway.

My advice to the Orkney and Shetland Islander's start canvassing now for your return to Norway should Scotland vote for Independence (best thing that could happen to you)

Another thing stated previously - If Alex Salmond wants independence for Scotland then his bet bet is to get the English to vote for it - it would be a racing certainty.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: goatfell
Date: 12 May 11 - 12:51 PM

labour rubbish snp good

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 12 May 11 - 01:12 PM

Well Teribus, your opinions are interesting only in their meanspiritedness.....but we needn't worry as most of your opinions on this thread have been miles wide of the mark.

There is a real change afoot in this country, as anyone with one ounce of common sense can see, the massive swing to the Nationalists came from every part of the political spectrum.....Tory, Labour, Liberal voters....Socialists, Conservatives, even the sectarian extremes whom I never visualised turning away from their beloved Union Jack, seem to have decided to live for the present and the future instead of the dark and blood-soaked past.

Why dont you come out of your foxhole and join us Teribus, see what it feels like to be a real Scot, not an apologist for the warmongering Union!

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Jim McLean
Date: 12 May 11 - 04:47 PM

It's quite ironic, really, but if Scotland HAD been independent when the Bank bust up happenend, there would have been enough money from North Sea oil in the coffers to handle the crisis, just as Norway did. The Westminster government squandered the revenue with poor investment and, it must be emphasised, Scotland did and does not have full fiscal control hence the reason why the Treasury stepped in, the Treasury whose money comes from Scottish tax payers as well as English. It is a fact that Scotland contributes more to the Treasury than it receives back. Simon Jemkins had a good article in Friday's Guardian (11th May 2011), well worth looking up. Simon Jenkins

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 12 May 11 - 04:58 PM

Excellent article Jim, and Simon Jenkins is a really nice person.
I've received several E'mails from him over the years, in response to my comments on his work.

Not a believer in "big government"!

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 12 May 11 - 05:02 PM

CMG would be smiling today.....don't you think so, Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 12 May 11 - 06:01 PM

"but we needn't worry as most of your opinions on this thread have been miles wide of the mark."

Pray tell me when that promised referendum supposed to have taken place??

It might, JUST MIGHT, make my original predicted 10 year deadline but I somehow doubt it, as Salmond and every other SNP member of the SNP knows that if they go to the country tomorrow there will be NO Scottish Independence.

Now just sit back and watch these clowns completely bugger it up - If you thought that Gordon of Cartoon was bad - You ain't seen nothin' yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 12 May 11 - 06:15 PM

To Jim McLean if you are going to raise hypothetical arguments put them in the correct timeline

1. Independence was rejected at the last Referendum (1975 I think)

2. Had Salmond put it to the vote during the term of the last Parliament as he promised to the result would have been a resounding NO - (He promised a vote by 2010 and the banks crashed when? - two years before so what oil revenues would Scotland have had???)

By the bye it's not Scotlands oil - take a look at the charts the oil is nearly all off Shetland - Now go and ask a Shetlander or someone from Orkney if they regard themselves as Scottish.

If you as a Scot call out for independence and the right of self determination, then you can hardly deny others the same right. As I said previously if given that chance I'd advise them to campaign for a return to Norway - It will automatically bring them into the fold of one of the richest country's in the world with one of the highest standards of living. If Scotland wishes to follow suit just remember this Norway's oil wealth does not go to pay for idle f**kers to sit on their arses on the dole, it means that everybody has a personal number without which you get nothing (and I mean nothing) it makes it extremely easy to keep track of tax (No avoidance or evasion of tax in Norway - each year they publish what tax everybody pays in the papers for all to see) A population of only 5 million is a piece of cake for a computer. How about the basic rate of tax Jim? Do you think a basic rate of 38% would be welcomed by the population of Scotland??

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Jim McLean
Date: 13 May 11 - 04:47 AM

From Teribus "To Jim McLean if you are going to raise hypothetical argument......" then he proceeds to fill his post with hypothetical statements/questions!!
By the way, Alex Salmond has promised in his pre election manifesto, and repeated many times since, that a referendum will be called during the second half of his term in office. If he doesn't then I will be the first to aplogise to Teribus and when Salmond does, I hope he, Teribus, will be courteous enough to do the same. Salmond's previous attempt at setting up a referendum was blown sky high by the opposition parties who said they would vote against it and, having a minority government, Salmond had no choice but to abandon it.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 13 May 11 - 01:33 PM

"From Teribus "To Jim McLean if you are going to raise hypothetical argument......" then he proceeds to fill his post with hypothetical statements/questions!!

Aw please Jim if you are going to quote me please have the integrity and honesty to complete the whole sentence:

"To Jim McLean if you are going to raise hypothetical arguments put them in the correct timeline

Makes a bit of a difference don't you think??

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 13 May 11 - 01:33 PM

200 Up!

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Jim McLean
Date: 13 May 11 - 02:52 PM

Teribus, I'm sure Mudcatters can read what has been posted but I'm afraid I don't understand your last post "200 Up!"

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 13 May 11 - 06:12 PM

I think it was a reference to the number of casualties one peace loving Scotsnman was hoping to cause by sending an explosive device to a famous football manager.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Jim McLean
Date: 14 May 11 - 04:51 AM

If you are correct, Alan Whittle, then I can only just shake my head in utter disbelieve in such murderous bigotry ... and wonder what it has to do with this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 14 May 11 - 05:04 AM

Nice one Al ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 14 May 11 - 06:14 AM

The neil lennon affair is just beyond belief. God knows we have some idiots and arseholes in England, but I CANNOT believe inflammatory behaviour like his has been tolerated on the British mainland. Compare and contrast the way Glen Hoddle got the sack for being non PC - not even a threat to public order.

The threads called Glasgow earthquake and Scotland had better get on to dealing with the situation before one of the nail bombs get through.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: GUEST,John MacKenzie
Date: 14 May 11 - 08:14 AM

Al, it's been going on for too many years. There have been people murdered in cold blood, just because they wore the 'wrong' team colours.
It's one of the many reasons I hate football, and also why I left the west of Scotland.
Believe me, there is nothing scarier than being approached by some big neanderthal and his mates, and being asked the 5 scariest words in the Scots language, "Whit team dae ye support?" You just know, you're in for a kicking, nine times out of ten.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 14 May 11 - 08:24 AM

John we have more football hooligans in England than any place on earth. But a manager spitting on the other teams colours. Shouting, Come on! You Orange bastards!

What are the authorities thinking of?

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 14 May 11 - 10:57 AM

What the fuck has this to do with the Scottish Nationalists being elected by a landslide?

Sectarianism, especially in the west of Scotland is historic and was rooted in working class politics, both Conservatives and Labour blatantly used the sectarian card to consolidate their support.
I have never heard religious prejudice used by anyone associated with Scottish Nationalism.......It has always been the preserve of rabid Unionists or the Labour local government mafia.

I have been voting Nationalist for a few years now, as I see an Independent Scotland as becoming clear of association with UK global warmongering and Unionist sectarianism.

Thankfully, as I stated earlier, even the most "tribal" areas of Glasgow have been transferring their allegiance the the SNP.

I think they have finally sussed   "the old divide and rule"

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 14 May 11 - 11:25 AM

Some mair "Scotch"

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Jim McLean
Date: 14 May 11 - 12:57 PM

I agree with you Akenaton, I think Teribus hijacked the original intention of this thread for a bit of Scots bashing. I wrote a song called "Forget the Old Orange and Green" about 45 years ago and, with some dreadful exceptions, the people are listening.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 14 May 11 - 05:37 PM

"Sectarianism, especially in the west of Scotland is historic and was rooted in working class politics"

Utter bullshit.

"By the way, Alex Salmond has promised in his pre election manifesto, and repeated many times since, that a referendum will be called during the second half of his term in office."

Why the second half? Does he hope that his Party's incompetence in Government and the fact that the SNP cannot deliver on what it promised can be blamed on Westminster? He must take the population of Scotland to be complete and utter fools.

Interesting times ahead, I look forward to seeing what happens. Fact is Salmond has his working majority now - he cannot blame anyone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 14 May 11 - 06:24 PM

The NEW COALITION of Auld Tories(Conservatives) and Rid Tories(Labour) are already at work in the media attempting to sabotage the political will of the Scottish electorate.

Mr Salmond and his team will need all their considerable strength to get the facts before the people of Scotland, when faced by the UK media machine and every Unionist Party
Alex is a shrewd operator and will choose his time , he now holds all the aces, but I fully expect warmonger Cameron to use all the dirty tricks at his disposal.

Would an invasion in the "national interest" be too far fetched?....we shall see. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 15 May 11 - 03:39 AM

"Mr Salmond and his team will need all their considerable strength to get the facts before the people of Scotland"

Ehmm No Akenaton, what Mr Salmond and his team have to do over the next five years is govern Scotland and find ways of paying for all the things that they have promised the electorate but know they do not have the funds to implement. That will take considerable strength and skill which the SNP was sadly deficient in demonstrating during the term of the last Scottish Parliament. The tactic will be to say to the people of Scotland, "Sorry pal, we can't do these things because Westminster won't allow us to, they won't give us the money". Should Salmond get his tax raising powers watch two things happen stagnation and recession in Scotland and a virtual shut down of the North Sea.

"..an invasion in the "national interest" Ha bloody ha, who would he get to invade Scotland? Left to the "English" Akenaton Scotland would be cast adrift and independent tomorrow - it's the Scots who don't want Independence (now or in two and a half years time)

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 15 May 11 - 05:20 AM

If the Union is so keen to cast Scotland adrift Teribus, why are Conservative, Labour, and Liberal Parties so intent on undermining the SNP and their bid to make Scotland a free nation once again?

They have been fighting the idea of Scottish Independence for decades and of late have been forced to give back more and more powers to the Scottish devolved government.

Unfortunately for you and other military minded Unionists, the days of colonialism and imperialism are over......wake up and smell the porage Teribus.....We're on the move, and there's nothing like a bit of Teribus on toast to start the day! :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 15 May 11 - 05:30 AM

We will see Akenaton come the referendum - If it ever actually takes place that is.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Allan Conn
Date: 15 May 11 - 06:02 AM

"Why the second half?"

Salmond has been absolutely open about it. In the election campaign he made it clear that if they were in a position to bring a referendum forward (which now for the first time they clearly are) then it would be in the second half of the parliament. So he is doing exactly what he said he would. Why the second half? That again seems pretty clear to me. Firstly he has openly stated that his initial objective is to strengthen the Scotland Bill. That is to bring more fiscal autonomy to Scotland. Seems sensible to hedge your bets. Secondly as you have pointed out generally a minority of Scots say they'd support independence. it normally amounts to about 30% or so - though of course that doesn't mean the other 70% all opppose it. The issue though has never been properly debated in either Holyrood or the Scottish media. Salmond no doubt wants time to put his arguments properly to the people and I dare say he thinks a proportion of those not supporting independence would be open to persuasion. I suspect he is right in that many Scots would favour it but have a fear of change! I suspect that unionist politicians know that too - hence we had the sight of unionists who had been actively blocking the referendum throughout the last 4 years of the minority SNP administration suddenly stating that the referendum 'must' be held straight away.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Allan Conn
Date: 15 May 11 - 06:13 AM

As someone has already stated it is now so much more than a Glasgow earthquake. Yes labour has lost it's automatic election in west-central Scotland - but the SNP are now truly a Scotland wide party. You used to mainly see the yellow shaded constituencies in the eastern Lowlands above the central belt but now they are strong virtually everywhere. Even in the four, for want of a better word, Borders constituencies, that is the three across the south plus Midlothian Tweeddale and lauderdale,then if you add the combined votes together the SNP are the most popular party. That would have been unthinkable just a few years ago. The Lib Dems may still have a hold on the northern isles but now taking the independents aside the Nats are clearly the party in second place there too.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 16 May 11 - 04:51 AM

So all they have to do now Allan is Govern and Govern successfully, although they daren't raise taxes as that will lose them votes and drive industry, commerce and investment away.

They have lots of "stuff" promised the electorate to pay for. They now have to find the money - They won't get it from Westminster and they won't get it from Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 16 May 11 - 05:41 AM

Keep wishing for the sky to fall Teribus.

That was Ian Greys plan....and look what happened to him. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Allan Conn
Date: 16 May 11 - 04:22 PM

"So all they have to do now Allan is Govern and Govern successfully"

Well of course that is true but they already have been governing for 4 years. As to the finances well they are restricted to what the funding is - they can only decide where they direct it. So it depends on who the people of Scotland choose to blame for tightening purse strings. The Scottish Executive or a Tory government in Westminster actually controlling overall spending. I wouldn't think the Nats would necessarily take all the flak. I think it is a sensible option to look for more fiscal autonomy by strengthening the Scotland Bill first. We all know in the end that it is the people of Scotland who will decide if they go for actual independence or not. The Nats understand that. They are democrats. But I think whatever happens decentralisation will increase further.