BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: Emma B
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 10:06 AM

'gusts' LOL - must have thinking of lots of hot air :)

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: Emma B
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 10:05 AM

Joy Bringer, please note it was a 'guest' who wondered what wing of the BNP you belonged to.

Of course that's what 'gusts' can (and do) do; sling insults at an individual or group and hide behind their 'anonymity'

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 09:43 AM

So, Joy Bringer - if you're not trolling, why don't you come out from behind your cowardly Guest persona and tell us about your other Mudcat identity(ies)?

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: GUEST,Joy Bringer
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 09:29 AM

Maybe I'm wrong sorry, I remember someone with a similar warped view as yourself, accusing everyone with a reasonable outlook on life as being a member of the BNP. They were going on about drugs here on a thread only to find a friend of theirs was going through hell with a family member due to a drug addiction.

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 09:23 AM

"a few words on weight control for this member of the BNP "

One of the first up against the wall when the revolution comes!

Now to fulfil Godwin's Law.... remember what happened to the faithful & loyal leader of the S.A.?

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 09:17 AM

"Foolestroupe, are you the guy had to apologise to a friend recently on a thread due to you not knowing about a family member of theirs and placed your foot right in it and insulted them"

Moi?

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: GUEST,Joy Bringer
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 09:14 AM

And I presume you have nothing to add to the thread ? Yes thought so.

Foolestroupe, are you the guy had to apologise to a friend recently on a thread due to you not knowing about a family member of theirs and placed your foot right in it and insulted them ? Yes thought it was you.

So I imagine they have forgiven you and forgotten the whole incident.

Well said they forgot the whole incident !

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: Emma B
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 09:09 AM

Oh I don't know I'm sure Joy Bringer could have had a few words on weight control for
this
   
member of the BNP

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 08:55 AM

"I just wonder what wing of the BNP Guest Joy Bringer belongs to"

The BNP has Two Right Wings, which is why it will never fly for long...


:-)

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: GUEST,M.T.Headed
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 08:48 AM

I just wonder what wing of the BNP Guest Joy Bringer belongs to?

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 08:43 AM

"spend the afternoon reading the bible"

So which version, which translation, which approved set of Pauline Conspiracy approved books does your Fundy Wack Job Mob insist on?

Oh and if you mean in English.... you do know that many English translations are often unrelated to the original Hebrew & Greek meanings, but have been distorted for political manipulation?

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: GUEST,Joy Bringer
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 08:22 AM

I don't intend to.

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: Emma B
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 08:22 AM

Joy Bringer you have said I am incapable of understanding qualities of hard work or love of the country of my birth.

You obviously know nothing about me either from that description or from your snide remarks about my 'badge covered parka'

I disagree with you - yes (and 'proud' to do so) although pride, and it's corresponding arrogance, is not usually a quality I admire.

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 08:21 AM

Don't flatter yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: GUEST,Joy Bringer
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 08:01 AM

Let us agree to disagree Emma, otherwise poor Ruth will get upset again.

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: Emma B
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 07:57 AM

Like (Matthew 22:34-40)

"Love your neighbour as you love your self" ?

You obviously love yourself Joy Bringer try loving you neighbour nearly as much.

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: GUEST,Joy Bringer
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 07:53 AM

British and proud my dear, British and proud. Hard working, clean living, patriot and God fearing. Qualities you simply would not understand.

Instead of putting on your badge cover parka to walk the streets in search of a "Good Cause", spend the afternoon reading the bible. You will find the answers to all your problems in there my dear.

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: Emma B
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 06:59 AM

Joy Bringer - oh and btw I'm a great fan of irony too - I call racist comments for what they are and there have been too many of them expressed by some anonymous guests recently IMO

Your implications that overweight people are feckless lazy drains on the working population of the UK are, as many other posters have pointed out, both offensive and inaccurate.

Despite the fact that people have offered sound reasons for variations in BMI you continue to insultingly equate overweight with 'loafers and freeloaders'

Now the definition of a bigot is someone who is obstinate and intolerant of those who differ in race, religion etc; as you seem to include physical build in this I think you qualify!

I can live quite happily with myself thank you and with tolerant people of whatever race, gender or creed.

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: GUEST,Joy Bringer
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 06:27 AM

Really I have neither the time nor inclination to debate with terminal bores.

So Ruth, is the title of this section "Non Music" ?
Hello, that means the threads are not inclined to be about music".

Emma, an opinion not shared by someone such as yourself is inclined to get the title "Bigot of Racist". Now some of the things you write could so easily receive a title from myself as I don't always agree with you, but why, that's your thing so live with it.

Oh dear Ruth, still going down the troll route. All because you don't agree with me.

"Det er ingen slik blinder enn de som kan ikke se"

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: Emma B
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 05:55 AM

Thank you Don!

I have little more to add to some guest's bigoted viewpoint who accuses someone else of dictating who can post but snarls at the contribution of a longstanding member of the forum.

            operor non nutritor amplus quod bardus creatura

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 05:28 AM

This is not a gardening or Star Trek forum. It is a music forum. The fact that you have nothing to contribute to the primary function of the forum says a lot about your motives for being here.

A troll is someone who only contributes deliberately contentious posts in order to provoke argument. How have you proved to be anything else in your time here?

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: GUEST,Joy Bringer
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 04:55 AM

I haven't contributed to threads on American politics, gardening or Star trek either, what does that make me ?

Ruth, your comments mean little, best ignored. By the way, change the troll record, it's just a little played out.

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 04:50 AM

Have just had a quick perusal of JoyBringer's other Mudcat posts. He has never contributed to a single music thread, and is a bigoted, shit-stirring troll.

Best ignored.

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: GUEST,Joy Bringer
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 04:48 AM

Great Don, very good. Yes they will all thank you for that.

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 04:34 AM

"""As the number of people claiming incapacity benefit grows in the UK, the government released new figures this week which shows millions of people claiming sickness benefit are capable of working full time.

One area they must target is these packs of young mothers who push prams in and out of coffee shops each morning to meet other young mums to discuss how to clip off another few quit in another state benefit."""

"""Sorry SRS, what part of the UK do you live in ? Please remind me how much you feel you have contributed to the BRITISH National Health Service ?

Thanks, it helps when those who reply to a thread about the BRITISH NHS are in fact BRITISH."""


BOY, did YOU pick the wrong name! Many of us British contributors would wish that we could say YOU were NOT one of us.

In fact, most of us are aware of the qualities of SRS, and welcome her input, as indeed our input is respected by our fellow members across the pond.

We all share an intense disdain for bigots, of whatever nationality.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 04:25 AM

I formally declare myself entitled to an opinion in these threads: I am from the UK!

"Why should we have to pay to maintain the health of those who smoke or eat their way into an early grave and won't make an effort to lose weight."

There are an amazing number of assumptions built into that, you know. Its odd, for example, that WE pay for THEM; you don't think for example that any of THEM might ever pay for US? Even if you have not had any treatment yourself, there's no guarantees for the future, you know.

You assume that these people who live a shorter time cost the NHS more, which is hardly self evident since the illnesses of old age also tend to be very expensive. You assume that being of a lower weight somehow automatically means you will cost the NHS less: the relationship is far more complicated than that. And so on.

Many years ago I did a 'life-audit' and looked at the effects on my average life expectancy if I lived 'the perfect life'; having the ideal weight, reducing the frequency of foods that could increase my cholestrol level and so forth. I was in my early fifties at the time and it would have added about 4 years overall. It would also have changed the sort of illness I was likely to die of from relatively quick (and therefore, as it happens, cheap!) things like a heart attack to long, drawn out (and expensive) illnesses like my father eventually died of - a series of strokes spread over nearly ten years. Many of those years he spent simply wishing he was already dead.

The result of my audit was that I was not prepared to give up foods I loved for decades, and to change my most likely cause of death into something lingering (and, as I said, expensive) simply to gain a statistical chance of living longer. I am now appreciably closer to that final day and I am still convinced I took the right decisions.

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: GUEST,Joy Bringer
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 04:03 AM

Sorry SRS, what part of the UK do you live in ? Please remind me how much you feel you have contributed to the BRITISH National Health Service ?

Thanks, it helps when those who reply to a thread about the BRITISH NHS are in fact BRITISH.

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 03:22 AM

At long last the NHS is considering take action against the overweight in our society. Why should we have to pay to maintain the health of those who smoke or eat their way into an early grave and won't make an effort to lose weight.


"Joy Bringer," I'll jump to the reply box without the rest of the discussion to tell you that you're a bigot. Plain and simple.

Which comes first, the health problems or the weight gain? It's a classic chicken and egg conundrum.

This week marks the one-year anniversary of the death of a dear friend who died at age 45 of heart failure. He had severe arthritis, a bad hip, and vertebra problems in his neck. Over the last five years he gained a lot of weight, and after many delays on a hip replacement surgery (no insurance, so he went through the county health folks) followed by neck surgery he was finally showing improvement. but not soon enough for his over-worked heart. The delay (nearly 2 years) in the surgery contributed to the deterioration of his overall health and weight gain. There is a shakeup going on at the county health service now, but it is too late to help my friend.

You can't look at a person's weight and automatically assume they are indescriminately eating themselves to bad health, but your statement at the beginning of the thread suggests that is exactly where your gaze is directed.

I do differentiate between smoking and weight problems. The distinction between calories and cigarettes is probably clearer for most people today. Helping people quit eating or smoking is what needs subsidizing, not penalizing. (Getting the attention of smokers first, perhaps.)

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: GUEST,Joy Bringer
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 02:28 AM

As the number of people claiming incapacity benefit grows in the UK, the government released new figures this week which shows millions of people claiming sickness benefit are capable of working full time.

One area they must target is these packs of young mothers who push prams in and out of coffee shops each morning to meet other young mums to discuss how to clip off another few quit in another state benefit.

There seems to be clones of these over-weight young women in every town, and they all have the same cry, "I can't work due to weight gain since my last child", rubbish.

Give them a diet sheet and contraceptives ! We are carrying far too many loafers and freeloaders these days in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 09:30 PM

McGrath, it sounds to me that you're on slightly the wrong track here. First, "the idiotic high-carb diets we've all been preached for years " that pattyclink mentioned is on the mark. What else could one call the "pyramid"? Very little from mainstream health care has presented anything else.

As for ""...'healthy' whole grain, starchy vegetables and sugary fruit", aren't whole grain, vegetables and fruit what is proffered? Many vegetables are starchy, much fruit is sugary. It doesn't mean that sugar is added.

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 07:11 PM

"...'healthy' whole grain, starchy vegetables and sugary fruit"

Sounds like pretty dodgy advice that Anne had been getting.

Stick with the faggots!

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: Rumncoke
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 07:03 PM

Having been drummed out of a slimming club for not losing wieght on their regime, and suffered the attentions of well meaning health professionals with diets that don't work, I always felt that I was somehow fundamentally wrong.

Despite eating a healthy diet and taking exercise I put on weight until I was 119kg.

I then found the Atkins diet, and found that I was not resistant to losing weight, I am just very sensitive to carbs, so all that 'healthy' whole grain, starchy vegetables and sugary fruit was making me put on weight.

I can happily eat a couple of pounds of salad and low carb veges a day and lose weight. The health professionals, with no idea of what doing Atkins entails, disapprove.

Low carb diets have been tried and shown to work numerous times over a century or more, but the doctors don't want to know.

As it was following their advice that made me fat in the first place I really can't see how they are going to make people lose weight to order - their methods don't work.

Anne

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 07:03 PM

sometimes the only thing that is really ruining the life of overweight people is the judgmental behaviour of others.

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 07:00 PM

...as with many other issues to do with health or lifestyle.

I'm sure there are people who are built so that they have enormous difficulties in cutting out the drink, or with dealing with it, and their choices are very limited. And there are others who drink too much for which that is not the case. And the same goes for other "addictions" of various sorts

What's wrong is to judge from the outside, and take the piss out of anyone.   But, for ourslves, if we're doing something that seems to be messing up our lives and the lives of others, we owe it to ourselves not to assume that we fall into the former category, and that we don't have the power to choose, even when it's difficult.

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 06:47 PM

"And for them it is a matter of choice."

It's so nice to see the range of psychologists and nutritionists here adding their tuppence worth.

It's equally "a matter of choice" for an alcoholic to go on drinking. Other addictions are treated as life-threatening medical conditions, whereas taking the piss out of fat people is seen as one of the last acceptable forms of prejudice.

Food addiction is a recognised psychological condition. People who have a troubled relationship with food often use it for mood-altering reasons, just like people with other types of addictions, like alcohol or gambling. It is often linked with depression and low self-esteem.

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: gnu
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 06:38 PM

John... "It's just too bad that STUPID doesn't show quite so obviously as some other difficulties."

Hahahahahaha... good one! Almost JOYful. Hehehehehe!!!

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 06:37 PM

the idiotic high-carb diets we've all been preached for years

I can't recall ever coming across that kind of advice. Keep down the carbs to a reasonable level is what I've always heard.
....................

When it comes to weight, people seem to have this tendency to an all or nothing approach, as with many other issues to do with health or lifestyle.   I'm sure there are a lot of people who are built so that they hold on to their weight - that must be a very valuable genetic characteristic to have in times when food is scarce. And it's not a matter of choice.

But that doesn't mean there aren't a lot of others who aren't built that way and have to work hard at maintaining their body size by overlarge portions and so forth. And for them it is a matter of choice.

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 06:26 PM

In insulin dependent diabetes, the insulin one takes to SURVIVE helps cells to burn carbohydrates to provide needed cellular energy but ALSO INCREASES FAT-CELL STORING OF ENERGY that can't be "sucked out at will."

Poor regulation of the release of energy from body "storage" is part and parcel of the illness.

While most diabetics benefit from losing weight, and it's recommended for those who can, especially for those requiring insulin, and most especially for those unable to obtain good control of their sugar levels because their body simply doesn't cooperate, there IS NO CHOICE using ordinary or even extreme dietary methods other than to BE FAT OR BE DEAD. An unregulated low sugar level does NOT just make you hungry. It makes you DEAD. If your body chooses to not release fat, you must eat to maintain "living levels" of blood sugar - even if it means that part of your food intake will add to the stored fat.

Even the "extreme methods" available, such as the various forms of bariatric surgey, carry SUBSTANTIAL SURGICAL RISK, serious and IRREVERSIBLE side effects, and NO GUARANTEE OF SUCCESS.

But some people do continue to ridicule and object to seeing anyone with a handicap of any kind. It's just to bad that STUPID doesn't show quite so obviously as some other difficulties.

John

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 04:52 AM

Liz, i know what you mean. Someone on Mudcat, who habitually moans about being a victim of bullying, immediately made nasty references here to my weight after seeing me in real life. Oh, the irony...


Anyone has a problem with my weight, I'll sit on them.

That'll learn the judgemental, self-righteous bastards.

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 02:44 AM

Last I heard, they were bringing in a specially reinforced train...

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 11:12 PM

Remember that claim that ones' environment affected ones' genes? You know, giraffes stretched their necks, etc?

Claimed to be untrue... because it was thought that nothing could affect the germ cells - the sperm & eggs in the ovaries.

Well it has been shown that the state of food availability to ones' ancestors DOES affect the germ cells in their bodies, and this IS passed on, thus some people are FAT & some are THIN due to their ancestors!

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: GUEST,pattyClink
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 09:47 PM

Amen, Liz. The research is showing it is incredibly hard or impossible for many people to just get the weight off at will. Lots of people can do it once, then their metabolism 'learns' soemone may starve it, and is resistant to that kind of diet ever again.

Controlled studies have been done on healthy young guys to test the 'just-eat-less' premise and guess what, it doesn't hold water as everyone assumed it would.

In the real world, there are lots of women eating 900 calories a day and doing workouts who gain weight if they ever eat 1200.

The 1000-pound category of patients are now being studied and they are finding mechanisms in them that are packing fat cells even as their muscles and other tissues are not getting what they need.   Others with very uneven fat distribution have been studied; on 600-calorie diets fat cells in the hips were still working on overdrive to hold fat while the rest of the body was undergoing starvation.

Before I have to pay penalties for my overweight, I would like the jackass medical establishment which has done a horrible job over the years of studying bariatric problems to compensate me for the damage done to me and my family by following their stupid advice over the years. Evidence is mounting that the diabetes epidemic is very likely the result of the idiotic high-carb diets we've all been preached for years (yes, and the fact that we don't walk anywhere any more).

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: Emma B
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 09:16 PM

they initiate inaccurate threads under the name of 'guest' :)

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 09:10 PM

And people with fat heads, what do they do?

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 04:01 PM

I go with the genetic thing. I have family photographs covering 3 or 4 generations back and I'm one of the thinner people in them.

They all ate a healthy diet (no junk food in the 1900's) and worked every day at manual labour on farms, thatching roofs, boat fishing and animal husbandry.

I've been insulted here about my weight before, it's hurtful but even more so when I know the things I do to try to keep it under control.

To imply that the NHS will no longer treat obese people until they cease to be obese is inaccurate and vindictive. To further imply that you are paying for my healthcare, when I've paid my own share of National Insurance contributions over the 20+ years I've had paid employtment is insulting in the extreme.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 03:12 PM

Needed- Ccombinations of Dunderbeck with his sausage machine and the Demon Barber of Fleet Street with his razor, and press gangs to collect overweights venturing on the streets.

Stringent weight control laws will be in my platform when I run for president.

To the stake for those who cry 'mit schlag' or ask for cream at Starbucks.

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: GUEST,Joy Bringer
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 02:27 PM

"appearing as a non-member on a website dedicated to music"

Do I have to be a member to post here ?

Have you ever posted a comment Bee on a thread that wasn't "dedicated to music" ?

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: Bee
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 01:59 PM

"Joy Bringer": appearing as a non-member on a website dedicated to music, and posting an inflammatory OP first thing is equivalent to looking, walking, and quacking like the proverbial readily identifiable duck. You certainly weren't planning on 'Bringing' any 'Joy' to the site, now were you?

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 01:49 PM

And , Joy B. are the Mr.or Mrs obese or Mr. or Mrs Cigarette perhaps ?

Subject: RE: BS: NHS act at last on the Overweight
From: GUEST,Joy bringer
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 01:22 PM

"B" I took my name from a favourite track of mine "Joy bringer" by Manfred Mann.

So is this your site ? are you Mr. or Mrs Mudcat ? Do you have any other words in your vocabulary other than troll ? It would appear not.