Saddleworth Rushcart 2008

Subject: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: GUEST,Ed (Rushcart Sec)
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 06:34 AM

Following hard of the heels of the excellent Saddleworth Folk Fest is Saddleworth Morris Men's annual Saddleworth Rushcart, a weekend of Morris, Gurning and Worst Singing competions!! We have 20 Morris sides from all over the UK, as well as Helier Morris from Jersey and Silkeborg from Denmark. The main procession of the 'Cart round the villages of Saddleworth takes place on Saturday 23rd August, with dancing at the Church Inn and Cross Keys Uppermill on Sunday 24th. Further information is available of our website and facebook site.

Anyone out there got any memories of Rushcarts past, or even better photos of us in the early days in the 1970's & 80's?

Subject: RE: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: JP2
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 07:40 AM

A full list of all the sides attending would be interesting,after all there are some sides one would like to avoid like the plague.

Subject: RE: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: John J
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 08:37 AM

I'll have a look through my old photographs, there should be something. My first Rushcart (perhaps the sides first too?) was in 1975.

John
(ex-Saddleworth, mid 70s to about 1980)

Subject: RE: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: sapper82
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 08:54 AM

Shall I attemd to celebrate the 20th aniversary of my winning the wrestling championship?

Subject: RE: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 08:55 AM

JP2, good point, see below for the full list of sides/reps, hopefully none you would wish to avoid??!

JohnJ - Good to hear from you. 1975 was indeed the first 'Cart, it's our 34th this year. Ron Yates, John Dunning & of course Pete Ashworth are still active in the side from the original Rushcart. Adlington MM are here this year on the Sunday, one of the sides who were at the first 'Cart! If you have any pics from the '70's/80's, let me know as I'd love to get some put up on the Website.

Ed


Adlington Morris Men from Cheshire; Anker MM, Warwickshire; Blackheath MM, London; the Britannia Coconutters of Bacup; the Bury Pace Eggers; Earlsdon MM, Coventry; Exeter Morris Men; Helier Morris Men from the Channel Islands; Kennet MM, Reading; Leicester Morris Men; Mossley MM, Lancashire; Moulton MM, Northampton; North British Rapper; Rose and Castle MM, Northamptonshire; Rutland MM, Leicestershire; Shakespeare MM, Stratford-upon-Avon; Silkeborg Morris Men all the way from Denmark; Silurian Border MM, Hertfordshire; and Wrigley Head MM from Failsworth.

Also, we will have representatives from Anstey Morris Men of Leicestershire; Chalice MM, Somerset; Ebor MM, York; Green Oak MM, Doncaster; Jockey MM, Birmingham; John O Gaunt MM, Lancaster; Icknield Way MM, Oxfordshire; Letchworth MM, Hertfordshire; Long Man MM, Eastbourne; Thaxted MM, Essex and Waddard Morris Men from Kent.

Subject: RE: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: Alio
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 10:26 AM

Thanks for the bit about the folk festival Ed.

The Rushcart weekend is just awesome if you've never managed to get there. Saturday is my favourite - you need to arrive in one of the villages before the cart and dancers arrive. Then you can actually hear it nearing you around 15 mins before you actually see it! It's a fantastic sight - nothing else comnpares!

Ali

Subject: RE: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: JohnB
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 10:32 AM

Somewhere in a box, I have a Rushcart poster which I borrowed from some pub around 1975/76 in Delph I think.
I live in Canada and have since 77, so that is the only time I went.
No you can't have it, I would have to go and look for it.
I do have a photograph, year uncertain which I got from Pricey of Wrigley Head at last years Bromyard FF.
JohnB.

Subject: RE: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: John J
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 10:38 AM

Hi Ed,

I saw Ron & Hilary and Pete Ashworth at Bromyard last year, it was good to see the side now performs outside of Saddleworth.

I'll have a good rummage for photographs. Is the side at Bromyard again this year?

John

Subject: RE: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 10:49 AM

MM, MM, MM, MM, MM, MM, MM, MM, MM, MM, ...................?

Subject: RE: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 11:08 AM

No problem Ali, I've been to all of the Saddleworth Fests except the first and reckon it's one of the best! Any chance of a cheeky plug for the 'Cart on the radio...!

We're not doing Bromyard this year as we have a conflicting invite From Monkseaton MM (abreviation for 'Morris Men' to save space)and will be in Newcastle that weekend. However, we intend to return sometime soon, if Pricey will have us back (I last saw him when we ended up in the same B&B at Whitby for the Moor & Coast Fest this year, Hawaian shirt at breakfast!).

Any photos would be greatly appreciated. Any other ex-Saddleworth dancers out there? This might be cause for another thread, but tracking down ex-dancers is something we're looking at as it the 35th Rushcart in 2009 and it would be good to put together some scrapbook material for the program/website. Hope you can help!

Eddie

Subject: RE: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: Soldier boy
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 06:56 PM

Guest Ed - what no mixed or women-only morris sides? What are you afraid of?

Subject: RE: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: JP2
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 03:32 AM

Oh I don't know about avoiding some of the sides you mentioned Guest,Ed.
Every time I've met Blackheath MM I've ended up with a headache,Wrigley Head MM lured my number one son away 18 years ago with promises of foreign travel,beer etc.and I've hardly seen him since and I'm still trying to get the blacking off from meeting Silurian MM at Bromyard FF(Brilliant Festival by the way)last year.
I might attend if I don't get a better offer like dancing in Brazil or even Monkseaton!!
Or I might just re-organise my sock draw and look for some socks that are guaranteed to fall down gracefully.
PS Do they still do B & B at the Wagon?I wonder if they've got any vacancies.
PPS Hawaian shirts at breakfast.Whatever is the world coming too?

Subject: RE: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 03:56 AM

As Soldier Boy says Ed, MM, MM, MM, MM, MM, MM, MM, MM, MM, MM, MM, ...................?

Subject: RE: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 04:12 AM

Yes JP2, the Waggon is still doing a roaring trade in B&B, although it does tend to get booked up well in advance, as for the sides you mention, we accept no repsonsibility......

As for the sides invited, we like 'em!

Subject: RE: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: Alio
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 05:04 AM

I'll definitely plug the Rushcart on Sound of Folk Eddie - no problem.

Ali

Subject: RE: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: JP2
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 05:07 AM

Someone is having trouble with the upper case letter m sticking.
I usually attribute it a lack of keyboard cleanliness.Ha!Ha!
JohnB,who is this "Pricey"from Wrigley Head MM,the only "Pricey"I remember used to play for Earlsdon MM years and years ago,in fact I would be surprised if he's still alive.

Subject: RE: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 05:27 AM

So here we have Saddleworth, in an part of the country alive with excellent traditions of mixed and women's sides, unable or unwilling to invite either.

Why is this?

Subject: RE: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: GUEST,Connie
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 05:32 AM

As a dancer in a women's NW side of more than 20 years (good grief, how long?) and a regular Rushcart attendee, I would not want to see women's sides at Rushcart for the simple reason that it would change the nature and atmosphere of the event beyond recognition. Rushcart wouldn't be Rushcart. And I wouldn't want to pull the cart up the hill on Sunday morning - leave it to the chaps!

Subject: RE: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 05:37 AM

Connie,

"it would change the nature and atmosphere of the event beyond recognition."

Beyond recognition? The list of sides for this year gives great variety but somehow not the variety brought by women?

Gorton Rushcart seemed a bit good inspite of a number of womens sides, was it not?

Subject: RE: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: JP2
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 05:47 AM

You don't happen to dance with a mixed side do you Les?or perhaps you would like to dance with a mixed side,I think we should be told!
And didn't Gorton have a horse to pull the cart!
Honestly,what sort of a Rushcart is that?

Subject: RE: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 06:16 AM

As far as the sides we invite go, as a male dance side, we organise an event to showcase male dance sides (particularly NW teams if we can get them) in Saddleworth. All shades of opinion on this are as valid as each other.

However, sides have attended for many years that are 'mixed' in the sense they have female musicians, male dancers is the criteria we use. This isn't a Morris Ring policy, it's just us.

As for the hills, Gatehead from Delph to Dobcross in the rain makes you wish you had a horse!

Subject: RE: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: JP2
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 06:45 AM

There you go Les and Soldierboy,there's your answer,you can re-start Gorton Rushcart and then you can invite anyone you like.
There are surely enough mixed/womens side about to make it viable and you wouldn't have to invite any men only sides.

Subject: RE: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 06:46 AM

"You don't happen to dance with a mixed side do you Les?or perhaps you would like to dance with a mixed side,I think we should be told!"

No I don't, I danced with Gorton '78 - '84 ish.

"And didn't Gorton have a horse to pull the cart!
Honestly,what sort of a Rushcart is that?"

What kind? Clearly good enough for Saddleworth to dance at.

I know I am wasting my time here but the list of sides is seriously impressive. Some sides almost certainly have a history and I guess some have almost none at all. Some dance Northwest and some Cotswold, some Rapper and some I don't know.

So the long and short of it is that a collection of men who dance for a side put together quite recently and with little or no historical roots, performing dances from a range of traditions is welcome when women's sides with serious history and a more genuine link to 19C Northwest traditions are not.

Why is that then?

Subject: RE: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: JP2
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 07:22 AM

No Les,the long and the short of it is that Saddleworth Rushcart is exactly that,Saddleworth's.
Nothing to do with 19C traditions or historical connections,Saddleworth choose who they want to come to their cart and if they want all men sides that is their business and no one else's.
If you want an all inclusive politically correct Rushcart revive one or start one from scratch the YOU can invite who YOU like and if anyone tells YOU who to invite YOU can tell them where to get off!
Simple.

Subject: RE: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: GUEST,Harry
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 07:35 AM

1980 and a sixteen man 'Uppermill'!

Subject: RE: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 07:41 AM

Ok JP2, I understand that and in some senses it's none of my business. I hope this will not become unpleasant. I will try my best.

Saddleworth Rushcart is a public event that says something or other about Saddleworth and it's history. As a sometime dancer and student of Morris etc. for around 40 years I rather suspect that some of the sides who have been invited have no significant history. If Morris is worth anything it must be related to it's history. If it's just a bunch of men dancing together in public it has no particular significance and probably no drama.

I accept that Saddleworth invite who they like - and so they should - how could it be otherwise? But why exclude women as dancers when women have clearly been dancing, saving and collecting dances for a very long time?

Subject: RE: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 07:46 AM

Harry - There have been a couple of years in recent times when we've put out a 24 man Uppermill on the Saturday morning. Looks great, but it changes the dance in the last grand chain and takes some remembering, not something you get to practice much!

Subject: RE: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 08:13 AM

Les - Missed your last post when writing the previous message. I echo your point about the thread becoming unpleasant, not what I wish either.

Our policy on invites is nothing more or less than as I said in the post above. We wish to showcase a facet of the Morris world we belong to, as well as celebrate a very local tradition for us (Alfred Burton's Rushbearing, local/family memories of Saddleworth etc). There is plenty of room in the world for other Rushcarts (I wish there were more!) and other groups with different aims from us.

The particular roots of the teams attending cover the whole spectrum from trad sides like the 'Nutters to revival sides formed in the '70's. Personaly I don't believe a side has to have a proven link to the source of the material it draws on for it's dancing. As long as the source is treated with some respect and the dance done well, it has value. For the North West, the true inheritors would be Carnival (Fluffy) Morris? but they have their own distinct culture and cycle of competition, long may they continue and thrive.

Anyway, as you say, Saddleworth have danced at Gorton's 'Cart and it was they who helped us pull the first one, with Adlington, were you at that one Les? As mentioned any 'photos/recollections from those days in Saddleworth?

Subject: RE: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 08:37 AM

Thanks Ed that's very clear.

But why don't you invite women's sides when they clearly have a much closer link to the Northwest Tradition than do Cotswold sides with, in some cases, no link to anything other than a festival workshop and a book of instructions?

Cheers

Les

Subject: RE: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 08:52 AM

Hi Les, the point about the invites is showcasing male dance sides as mentioned, we have never limited this to just NorthWest Morris (e.g. Adlington at the first 'Cart in 1975 who are a Cotswold revival side). Indeed the bigger the spread of traditions on show the better for the crowds who come to watch us each year.

I would suppose that none of the Morris organisations would want to exclude or suppress a new team on the basis they had no trad roots. Most teams would struggle with that definition. Whether that's a good thing or not for Morris is an interesting point though, depends on your view....

Subject: RE: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: GUEST,Connie
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 09:17 AM

Deary me! Children! Can we just agree that there are different opinions on this? My own is that it is Saddleworth's trainset so they get to say who plays with it - and a very impressive train set it is!

Subject: RE: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 09:21 AM

Thanks Connie, we're pretty chuffed with it too! It will be sparkling like new this year after a quick paint job, Saddleworth sunshine doesn't do the wood much good!

Ed

Subject: RE: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 09:25 AM

Thanks Ed but why no women?

Connie, I don't think it's not about opinions. I think it's about the history of Morris. As I understand it women have danced Morris and Cotswold, Sharp found some and then kept quiet.

Most Morris sides have some stance on the history in general ie it goes back a long way probably to the 15C or 16C. Many add all sorts of made up nonsense about pre-christian fertility rites. The palce of womenin that history is undeniable - that's my point.

Subject: RE: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: GUEST,Connie
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 09:37 AM

Les

I agree wholeheartedly with your last point - and there are those who will say I can bore for England on the subject (I'm a NW dancer myself for goodness sake!) - but the fact remains it's still Saddleworth's trainset. An opposing argument could be that my (women's) NW team shouldn't be allowed to host a weekend of dance with only women's sides.

Connie

Subject: RE: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 09:46 AM

I know this is difficult subject especially for most men's sides.

I don't think it's about who is allowed to do what, nor should it be. I guess it's wrapped up in what I think, from a lot of reading and thinking, is a confused understanding of the history of Morris.

Morris is generally a public event and as Ed has said sides are invited so that a wide sample of dances etc. can be enjoyed with the one simple exclusion.

I am a bit worried about the train set analogy because it belittles a great spectacle but in the end..........................?

Cheers

Les

Subject: RE: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 09:48 AM

Hi Les - No argument with what you say, fertility rites etc. is much more to do with Victorian Folklorist's world view than anything else. Women in Morris history are clearly documented.

Male dance teams undeniably exist as a thread in Morris too though and are no less valid. It's a matter of personal choice as to which thread you choose to follow. As Connie says there's many opinions out there!

Anway, taking a step back from the philiosphy of it all, it's good to hear it's well received out there, feedback is not something you get much of when you organise an event like this, perhaps another thread beckons after the Bank Holiday...

Cheers
Ed

Subject: RE: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: JP2
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 11:35 AM

So,Les,which sides would you invite to Rushcart and why?

Subject: RE: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: doncatterall
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 11:39 AM

Hope the line has now been drawn under the mens'/womens' morris discussion - at least on this thread.

I danced with Adlington at the first Rushcart (revival) and I recall that we ended up at Diggle fete on the Sunday where we beat Saddleworth in the tug of war!!!

There was only Saddleworth, Adlington, Gorton (plus Wrigley Head on Sunday)that year and there was a much longer pull on the Sunday.

Was back there last year with Wadard (note the spelling Ed) after a lapse of some 20 years and had a terrific time especially meeting old friends like Martin Stimson(hope to see Bobbie there this year).

Don

Subject: RE: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 11:57 AM

Hi Don, sorry about the spelling, I never realised Wadard had an original Rushcarter in their midst! I was down your way for the ARM this year, great hosts as always.

Glad you enjoyed it last year, hopefully this year should be as good. That must be the reason the tug of war was ditched, the shame of it... I've heard it was a real struggle to move it with such small numbers, thankfully we've usually had a few more bodies since to share the load. When was the first time Wadard came up for the 'Cart??

Cheers
Ed

Subject: RE: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 12:35 PM

Well JP2, a fair question. Like most old gits I know the answer to everything in general and nothing in particular.

I am in no position to doubt the people that Saddleworth have invited. I bet they have seen lots of women's sides who would bring much delight to their cart and a fair bit of muscle too.

Yes I know that's a cop out. I remember Poynton and Fiddlers being brilliant at Gorton!

Subject: RE: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: doncatterall
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 04:08 AM

Ed

I'm with the Hebridean branch of Wadard having left Kent in 1990.

I had not danced at Rushcart with them until last year so I guess their first visit must have been early/mid '90s.

slainté

Don

Subject: RE: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: JP2
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 07:04 AM

I've just looked at the list again and noticed that Kennet MM aren't on it.
I thought they had become a fixture.
I shall miss Clive's inimitable singing in the Wagon.

Subject: RE: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: GUEST,Harry
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 07:10 AM

Hi Ed...

      I can imagine the problems with a 24 man Uppermill...in 1980 Pete changed the finish to feet together instead of a right kick...guess who forgot?

Subject: RE: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 08:49 AM

JP2 - Rest assured Kennet are here again this year, they are one of our most regular attenders as you say, the Waggon will be getting the usual treatment on the Friday night! For those feeling brave there is always the worst singer competition on Sunday afternoon, be warned the rivalry is fierce!

Harry - We've all done it at some point! What dances were being done back then, had the Dobcross been put together?

Cheers
Ed

Subject: RE: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: doncatterall
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 10:54 AM

Ed

Just heard from Bob that Wadard's first year was '93 although he thinks a couple of odds & sods attended in '91 & '92

slainté

Don

Subject: RE: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 11:02 AM

Thanks for coming back on that Don, 15 years of coming up from Kent deserves some kind of medal! Mind you John Drake has always said it's because the beer's cheaper...

Subject: RE: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: doncatterall
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 11:46 AM

then why, when we try to leave him in Saddleworth, does he always find his way back home. I think Wadard have suffered enough and it's someone else's turn to put up with him!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: Cats
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 12:58 PM

I camr to Saddleworth with 'friends' who were in Preston Royal at the time. I put friends in brackets as I had only met them that week when I was in Preston for a summer school and they persauded me to go to Saddleworth with them for the weekend. That was in 1983.   Hanging on my wall I have a signed pen and ink drawing of the Rushcart and the cloth on the front of it says 1982 which was the previous years Rushcart. I had the most amazing time and even took part in the step dancing competition with borrowed clogs! In the attic I have loads of photographs.

Subject: RE: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 04:09 AM

Hi Cats, glad you enjoyed it! We no longer have the step clog competition, it died out some years back due to lack of interest unfortunately. If you should come across the 'photos whilst in the attic, we'd be very interested in getting copies, hope you can help.

Cheers
Eddie

Subject: RE: Saddleworth Rushcart 2008
From: Cats
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 06:55 AM

I could go runmmaging around when I get back from Bideford if that's any use. Pm we with an address and I'll see what I can do in the way of copying them for you.