Folklore: Obama and Folk Performance

Subject: Folklore: Obama abd Folk Performance
From: GUEST,Lisa Null
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 11:21 AM

It fascinates me that so many pundits and would-be voters equate leadership with motivating and controlling followers in an organizational setting. Among folk musicians who jam together, "taking the lead" and "following" are very important concepts that effect each musical outcome. Most relevant in Obama's case, however, is the folksinger's concept of "leading" the audience. In rock and classical music, performers wow the audience who behave as enthusiastic spectators. To a professional folksinger, though, the concept of leading an audience involves not only getting them to sing unfamiliar choruses but to embrace the leader's vision at least for the duration of a song. Think Pete Seeger.

Some aspects of folk performance also apply to Obama as a leader. Who is he leading right now? He has his 300 hundred foreign policy advisors, his internet gurus, his fundraisers, his consultants, his speechwriters, his issue consultants, his organizers, his phone banks, his events planners, and his public relations flacks. For eighteen months, he has been running and financing a protean organization, the campaign itself. But being a leader does not merely consist of getting organizational workers to perform well.

Performing is also a form of leadership, not a pre-leadership accident or rhetorical trick that may result in some future opportunity to lead. Folk performers work hard at their performing skills and are in large part responsible for the level of popularity they generate for their act. Obama has spent a considerable time mastering performance skills. He works at oratory, at communicating through a presidential persona, and at positioning the vision he wishes to share within this historical moment. He needs the public and tries to involve them in developing and refining the vision. That is what is required during a campaign, what he is emphasizing. These are not pre-leadership factors-- they are part and parcel of leadership as he construes it during this election season.

I think performers, especially folk performers who draw on tradition, as does Obama, and who are incredibly interactive, also like Obama, should refuse to let the the GOP and the mediocracy get away with assuming that po;ularity or performance competence is just an act of God-- to do so would generate respect for us as public artists and also, perhaps, for the candidate.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Obama abd Folk Performance
From: PoppaGator
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 12:47 PM

Nice post, GUEST,Lisa.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: political leadership consists primarily in the ability to inspire and unify the populace through the spoken and (less often) written word. In other words, oratory or, as suggested here, performance. That's what galls me so much when Obama's opponents offer the criticism that he is giving us "nothing more than" rhetoric. That's just what we need!!! (Intelligent and effective rheotric, that is, of course.)

I find it particularly absurd to hear this criticism from that breed of American conservative that idolizes Ronald Reagan, because he's probably the greatest single example of a President who offered nothing but performance, and very effectively, at that.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Obama abd Folk Performance
From: artbrooks
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 01:17 PM

Hummmm...is this a political thread started by a GUEST, cleverly disguised as a music thread?

---

Art - note in the Guest Posting Policy that we make an exception for regular members who aren't logged in. Lisa has been around Mudcat now and then for a long, long time. The policy applies to people we don't know and who don't want us to know them. For Lisa, it's just that she and cookies don't get along.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Folklore: Obama abd Folk Performance
From: Amos
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 01:22 PM

Lisa, welcome to the Cat and thanks for a thoughtful post.

While it appears illogical that the virtues of rhetorical talent, leadership, vision and inspiration should be degraded by mudslining, I don't think logic is one of the requirements of heated political competition. The effort is to push buttons that will make people veer away without thinking, and to automatically instill dislike, fear, doubt and evenr epugnance by painting distorted or false images of another person, so that (so goes the general notion) one will get votes from those who buy your button.

Personally, I am much more responsive to those who try to push positive buttons, things tor each for and ideal scenarios to strive toward, and who speak clearly about the policies such ideals woudl require.

But some folks think hate-versus-hate is the natural order of things. You can even find a few of them around here, althoguh I would say they are in a minority.

A

Subject: RE: Folklore: Obama abd Folk Performance
From: DebC
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 01:22 PM

I have the highest respect for Lisa Null, who is a wonderful folklorist and singer in her own right. Her contributions to folk music are pretty extensive and she gets cited quite a lot among other folklorists and folk performers for her research.

I think she makes excellent points in her post and that this is an extremely relevant thread connecting the political issues of our time to all performing arts, not only folk.

Debra Cowan

Subject: RE: Folklore: Obama abd Folk Performance
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 02:49 PM

This is specially for Art: I posted here because i wanted to make the connection between folk music and politics and believe i've done so. If i were just going rant or exult about the political situation or a political candidate, i'd put it on BS-- I think its very important though that folk music people remember the relationship of "folk" to "politics" -- its part of our heritage. Singing political songs, old and new, is terrific but so is talking about what we've learned by participating in our fabulous eco-niche of the great musical landscape and bringing our thoughts to bear on larger political and cultural concerns. In this case, what Poppagator refers to as the sleight ""nothing more than" rhetoric" really got my dander up when i thought of the rich strand of rhetorical traditions that Obama has used to shape his speeches -- this isn't folksong exactly but the way he uses it has certainly got a folk component.

Amos: I apologize. i forgot to sign in-- I'm a member. Boy was it nice to get that big welcome though.

DebC: boy you make my ears burn!

--Lisa Null

Subject: RE: Folklore: Obama abd Folk Performance
From: GUEST,Songster Bob
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 02:55 PM

That message up there is awfully familiar. Was it posted on DailyKos today? It's rolled off the front page, so I'll have to go looking for it.

Yep! So I guess I should let you know that it was me who responded about the 'Kum ba yah' nickname some folks bandy about.


Bob Clayton

Subject: RE: Folklore: Obama abd Folk Performance
From: PoppaGator
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 03:05 PM

Lisa Nulls' opening post is a very interesting and persuasive essay that touches upon the subjects of folklore/performance and of contemporary politics almost equally. So it was probably appropriate enough for it to initially appear "up here" rather than "down there" as BS.

I'm not sure any of will have much to add to the non-political/folkloric aspect of this discussion, but I am pretty sure there will be plenty more political back-and-forth.

The longer this goes on, the further it is likely to lean towards the "BS/non-music" side of things. I'll be interested to see whether or not the moderators will see fit to relocate it ~ and, if so, when...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Obama abd Folk Performance
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 03:47 PM

Folk music is what brought us here and holds us together (leaving aside some people below the line who don't ever seem to turn up on music threads), so it's quite fitting that we should use that shared interest as a way of shaping our discussions about other stuff.

Obama's approach to crowds is indeed akin to someone leading a song. This snatch of him leading a chorus of Happy Birthday seems to suggest he's not too hot at the actual singing, but then you can't have everything.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Obama and Folk Performance
From: GUEST,Lisa Null
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 04:00 PM

Well, Obama sings happy Birthday with gusto and authenticity if little more! I guess he shares that with a lot of us... Bob Clayton, we travel down similar paths, i did put up a slightly different version of this post on Daily Kos but then decided i was sending it to the wrong people so shifted it a bit and posted it here.

Bob Clayton, so you are Ed Drone, the guy who sounded off so brilliantly about Kum Ba Ya as a nickname for liberals or what have you? it was a fantastic response. I think others would enjoy it... here's the link:
Click here

Subject: RE: Folklore: Obama and Folk Performance
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 04:25 PM

This set me thinking of this clip from Oh Brother Where Art Thou - especially the last bit, where the Governor leads them all in a chorus of You are My Sunshine.

That's the way to do it!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Obama and Folk Performance
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 04:44 PM

I have observed Pete Seeger closely for many years. He has inspired many people because
of the . It's not that Pete himself has organized political
organizations or presented bills to congress. It's that he can articulate in an admirable
manner the ideals that many of us Americans respect.

Obama can be articulate. This in itself is quite an achievement considering the intellectual imbecility of the last seven years of an erstwhile president that can't put a sentence together. As we witness McCain flip-flop and fumble in his speeches, it becomes apparent what a good gift of gab is worth. How refreshing to have a president who can speak well.

FDR was an orator. He inspired change in the country and the Fireside Chats were a
staple of that change. Eleanor helped him in this immeasurably and should be given
more credit for this.

It is such a relief to find a candidate that is intelligent and educated for a .
We need to prize education and the acquisition of knowledge and social sophistication
more than the idiocy of having a president that "we can drink a beer with".

Why have Americans allowed themselves to succumb to stupidity? Is it just that
monied corporations want to keep us that way so they can sell us crap?

Frank

Subject: RE: Folklore: Obama and Folk Performance
From: GUEST,Lisa Null
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 05:21 PM

OOOH, I LOVE THE POLITICALLY-CHARGED POWER OF MUSIC IN THAT VIDEO CLIP YOU SENT US, MCGRATH OF HARLOW!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Obama and Folk Performance
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 05:47 PM

Am I alone in being decidedly unimpressed by his abilities as an orator? I'm sure that anyone can be articulate if the words appears on a screenprompter! He is very good at shuffling, in a Jim Hackerish way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4Ei4mw2gvY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIKJgNQk6i4
And for the record, no, I'm not Republican or a rightwinger.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Obama and Folk Performance
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 06:13 PM

Am I alone in being decidedly unimpressed by his abilities as an orator?

I don't think there are very many politicians, of whatever political shade, who would agree with you, if they were honest about it. Most of them must be green with envy.

The interesting thing is, for years we've had people telling us that in today's world, what matters in politicians is the ability to chat undramatically on a living room style, pretending to sit on your sofa, so to speak. Crowd oratory was yesterday's game, no longer in any way relevant or effective.

And the Obama turns up and demonstrates that in the USA anyway, that just isn't true, and that holding and moving a crowd could make all the difference.

It's a different style of oratory from in previous times, but it's a highly crafted style - and that isn't accusing Obama of insincerity. The parallel with Pete Seeger is appropriate, because there is a man who has shown that it's quite possible to be sincere and yet put across a performance that brings an audience together and helps them come alive. (And of course it's easy enough to think of artistes and politcians who can do the latter part without a smidgeon of genuine sincerity.)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Obama and Folk Performance
From: Peace
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 06:19 PM

"It's a different style of oratory from in previous times, but it's a highly crafted style - and that isn't accusing Obama of insincerity. The parallel with Pete Seeger is appropriate, because there is a man who has shown that it's quite possible to be sincere and yet put across a performance that brings an audience together and helps them come alive. (And of course it's easy enough to think of artistes and politcians who can do the latter part without a smidgeon of genuine sincerity.)"

What a wonderful piece of writing. Wow!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Obama and Folk Performance
From: GUEST,Dani
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 08:36 PM

Well said, Lisa.

I am enjoying this thread immensely; very thought-provoking.

In my field (kitchens) there is a similar track. There are chefs who like to do their art/food their way and need lots of people to support them (I hate to name names, y'all know the kind I'm talking about), then there are the kind I aspire to be, who enjoy working with people, encouraging their skills, and love the fun of getting everyone up to speed and doing what they need to be doing the best they can, orchestrating many efforts with a common goal.

I think that IS what a political leader needs to be (as opposed to a 'lawmaker', who is really just like a skilled line cook). There's room for all KINDS of folksingers, but for inspiration, encouragement and posterity's sake, you've hit exactly on the head what is required.

Dani

Subject: RE: Folklore: Obama and Folk Performance
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 08:52 AM

If Obama becomes president, which I hope he does, I don't know that he will go down in history as being a great orator. It is just that when you stand him beside Dumbya, he looks like Einstein.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Obama and Folk Performance
From: GUEST,Lisa Null
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 10:34 AM

After McGrath of Harlow's wonderful teasing out what Pete Seeger and Barack Obama share in common:

"It's a different style of oratory from in previous times, but it's a highly crafted style - and that isn't accusing Obama of insincerity. The parallel with Pete Seeger is appropriate, because there is a man who has shown that it's quite possible to be sincere and yet put across a performance that brings an audience together and helps them come alive."

I have that rare, pleasurable moment of being better understood than I understand myself! And Dani's movement of the discussion into the kitchen is also wonderful for there she contrasts a sort of virtuoso, "Great Man" style of leadership with collaborative leadership of the sort Obama seeks to inspire in his listeners.

SO who here is the elitist?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Obama and Folk Performance
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 10:40 AM

This seems to be a veiled political cheerleading thread for Obama, and should be moved below the line.

I can appreciate the folklore aspect, but only when it has relevance to MUSIC.

There are millions of folklore aspects to life. That doesn't make all folklore relevant to the music section.

My opinion, and of course, it is one easily dismissed because I am currently furious over Obama's 180 degree turn on offshore oil drilling.

But really, oratory isn't music, music isn't oratory.

If we were talking about Reagan's oratory skills, the thread wouldn't be in the music section.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Obama and Folk Performance
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 11:03 AM

So if it was about traditional storytelling that would mean it should be BS because it wasn't music as such?

Above the line never has been limited exclusively to music. Stuff like traditional preaching, and the way it can cross over into the way secular performers, both singers and public speakers, interact with audiences, seems to me to fit perfectly well above the line.

And comparing the oratorical style of Ronald Reagan and Barack Obama and how they relate to, say, Frank Capra movies or Black American preaching would be quite appropriate.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Obama and Folk Performance
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 11:09 AM

Some traditional storytelling is linked to the stories told in songs.

This doesn't rise to that level.

We disagee that it is appropriate, McGrath. Just like I disagree that Obama's speech making abilities rises to the level of great oratory.

Some of us can actually tell the difference between great political oratory and empty political rhetoric.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Obama and Folk Performance
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 11:11 AM

And Lisa, I do appreciate where you are coming from re: posting here or posting at Daily Kos.

You might try posting this at the Democracy Now website.

At least they know who Utah Phillips was.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Obama and Folk Performance
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 12:11 PM

Thanks, mods.

---

Don't mention it. Let's just keep this interesting thread on topic. Thanks.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Obama and Folk Performance
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 12:48 PM

True enough traditional storytelling relates to song often enough. But even where it doesn't it'd still belong above the line.

Pedantic point - oratory isn't some higher level of rhetoric. The historical distinction between oratory and rhetoric is that oratory is one component of rhetoric, the art of actual delivering a speech, the other aspect being putting the words together, either in advance or on the hoof.

The crucial element in oratory is that the speaker succeeds in moving or convincing the people who are being addressed (who some cases may not be the people who are physically present - as for example in such as case as Nelson Mandela' famous speech from the dock). It's not a matter of meeting some set of rules about oratory, it's a matter of does it work.

In the singing context it'be a matter of, "Does the performer get the crowd singing their hearts out?" - and that's a different question from is it a great song, is he or she a great singer, or even is he or she sincere. Those are important questions but they don't stand or fall together.

It seems pretty self evident that Obama does indeed, metaphorically and even literally at time, get the crowd singing their heart out.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Obama and Folk Performance
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 03:11 PM

Charisma is one of the characteristics that define Seeger and Obama. Sometimes this
means that it really doesn't matter what they say as much as how they say it.

Rhetoric is in the eye of the beholder. It's often a matter of opinion. Some of the rhetorical speeches given by great orators would be considered arcane by today's standards such as those by William Jennings Bryant. There are Neo-Cons today who consider FDR's rhetoric to be unworthy.

Charisma and oratory stand by themselves.

I think it's important to separate the rhetoric from the oratory.

Both Pete Seeger and Obama have a preacher-like sermonizing oratorical style.

This doesn't diminish the content of their speeches in my estimation.

Folk music emanating from the Left Wing Movement has an ideological bent. This is the
foundation for the Seeger-style performance. It informs his charisma.

In Obama's case, i think it's the sermonizing that comes from the African-American
church exemplified by MLK Jr.

Reagan was a Hollywood entertainer who had the charisma of a movie star. His rhetoric was Right-wing canned and he was unable to articulate an independent idea of his own.
His yuck about "I'm here from the government and I'm here to help" created a laugh line
that put many hard-working people on the streets. The rise of homelessness grew during the Reagan years. You can thank Reagan for the deregulation of the airlines, unions and
other safety devices that keep people from slipping into poverty.

I don't think Pete Seeger would ever be elected into public office, so in this regard,
his oratory would be different than Obama. It may be a surprise to many folkies but
Pete's style doesn't appeal to everyone.



Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Folklore: Obama and Folk Performance
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 04:05 PM

It seems to me that both a good speaker and a good performer-whether that performer is a folk singer/musician or other kind of performing artist-has to have a good sense of his or her audience's mood-what it is and how to change it if need be for to his or her advantage.

The times when this ability ro sense and use yur audience's mood is needed the most is when the speaker {or the performer} has to deal with hecklers. Those unexpected occurances that are bound to occur sometimes test the mettle of both performers and speakers. And it seems to me that that is one time when your find out whether that speaker or performer is able to think quickly in unscripted ways. And in those unscripted moments, you also may see the real speaker, and singer/musician-unmasked, separated as he and she is from his or her rehearsed performance.

**

Here's a recent example of Senator Barack Obama being heckled by group of young African American males at a rally in Florida:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ul8gPo4zwo

After speaking directly to the hecklers, Obama indicated that one of the group would have an opportunity to ask a question during the question & answer portion of the rally. Bottom line, Obama never completely lost control of the audience, and while he may not have won over those protestors, imo, Obama very effectively used that protest to keep the audience's enthusiasm for him, and perhaps even heightened their enthusiasm.

I'm sure many performers which that they had the skill that Barack Obama exhibited in that encounter.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Obama and Folk Performance
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 04:19 PM

Sorry for the typos and misspellings in my previous post to this thread.

I wish I could have a "do over". But, as is the case with performances and public speaking experiences, in the real world there are no such things as do-overs. You have to live with what you've done. And so I will-though one lesson from this experience is to use the preview feature and I suppose in the "real world" a lesson for speakers/performers that can be taken from this is to be more careful how you present yourself to {in} the public.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Obama and Folk Performance
From: Alice
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 04:32 PM

I don't hear Obama as a "preacher" style speaker... when I hear him, the style seems to be more what he has been, a college lecturer, for 12 years at the University of Chicago Law School. From the factcheck web site: "His formal title was "senior lecturer," but the University of Chicago Law School says he "served as a professor" and was "regarded as" a professor." click

Subject: RE: Folklore: Obama and Folk Performance
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 04:54 PM

I agree, he doesn't speak in the preacher style or a lawyer's summation style, though he does, at times, make use of some of those styles' rhetorical devices.

He comes across, and very much so to me, as having an academic style, of engaging an audience on a purely intellectual level. After 8 years of Dumbya, as I said above, the difference is quite striking.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Obama and Folk Performance
From: Sorcha
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 09:51 PM

Well, in my opinion, THIS thread is a rather shallow attempt to use the Music section of the forum for Political ends. Personally, I think the entire thread should be below the line.

There is really nothing 'musical' or 'folkloric' about this at all.

---

Folks, you need to stop worrying about the music connection. Lisa Null laid out a very clear, music related, predicate to start the thread. It is not going to be moved below the line, nor should it be. Mick Lane, Forum Moderator

Subject: RE: Folklore: Obama and Folk Performance
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 10:11 PM

Oh, Sorch...sure there is! Exactly what Lisa stated....

"I think its very important though that folk music people remember the relationship of "folk" to "politics" -- its part of our heritage. Singing political songs, old and new, is terrific but so is talking about what we've learned by participating in our fabulous eco-niche of the great musical landscape..."

It's not a critique of his politics or platform, it's a way to show how 'leadership' is relevant by referring to situations we, AS folkies, are familar with.



**DISCLAIMER** I know Lisa Null....and Bob Clayton. They were both at my house for a singaround last night.(Though I knew nothing about this thread then) Lisa has a wide ranging interest in 'life', expressed primarily thru music.
And Bob Clayton has written some VERY fine topical songs which I wish Obama could hear to get some 'folk' perspective on issues.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Obama and Folk Performance
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 10:30 PM

One more thought...I am sort of a student of the dynamics of folk gatherings, and of how various professional, semi-professional and totally amateur 'performers' interact within a group or IN FRONT of a group.
There is a wide disparity in the ability ...or inclination... to share and learn, as well to lead & teach. Some are quite talented, but tend to inflict that talent on others, and act as though they have the ONLY correct & relevant way to sing, play or direct the course of a session.
   Others ...even world class musicians... can fit in and just use their ability to make the music say what needs to be said, and are willing to **listen** to other when they themselves are not preforming.
   I claim that there are obvious similarities to political situations, and that we have for the last 7+ years seen some pretty bad examples of self-centered stuff in politics...and even though Obama MUST show that he can LEAD when necessary, he 'feels' as though he is trying to listen and be 'part of the circle' for group participation. I am not trying to convince anyone of Obama's basic worthiness here... THAT does belong down below.... but as this election year proceeds, there will be other politicians trying to get our attention, and it just 'might' be useful to ask yourself which of them you'd enjoy in a weekend of singing OR political debate..

Subject: RE: Folklore: Obama and Folk Performance
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 10:33 PM

Or drinking a beer with? ;-)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Obama and Folk Performance
From: Sorcha
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 10:37 PM

OK, Bill, it was just my opinion. I'll think on it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Obama and Folk Performance
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 10:38 PM

indeed! (we had some Belgian Ale last night, as well as some excellent IPA .......and some Genessee Cream Ale that expressed feelings, if not elegance)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Obama and Folk Performance
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 10:38 PM

Personal charisma is a serious asset to people who must relate to the public. I'm not sure of the folkiness, though--While Pete had (has) is in overwhelming measure, so did Billy Graham, JFK and Ronald Reagan.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Obama and Folk Performance
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 06:39 AM

I'm all for oratory, I dislike the mindlessly droning on and on school of public-speaking, I just don't think Obama is really all that good at it. Far from being moved, I keep feeling why is this guy shouting, which, if it were good oratory, I wouldn't notice that as much. And to keep the thread on topic, it doesn't seem much like Pete Seeger's way of doing things either. Pete Seeger came right out and said things, without shuffling. He was also able to turn even mundane things into something captivating and momentous, as well as making it thought-provoking. Wiith Obama, not only does it feel scripted, but I am left wondering what he was talking about.
This is not a critique of Obama, or anything of the sort, beyond my opinions on his oratory.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Obama and Folk Performance
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 09:45 AM

If this thread was primarily about what Obama was saying then I think it'd be more fitted to below the line - but it's much more about how he says it, and about the craft of speaking in public, and that's a topic which is in its way inseparable from other aspects of public performance.

I can understand what people mean by saying he's not a great orator, but I think they are missing the point. It's rather like saying of a performer, say Pete Seeger, or Dylan, that they aren't great singers, because they don't have technically great voices, or use the techniques of singers like Pavarotti. It's quite true - but it's irrelevant, because they are doing something different, and they are doing that different something outstandingly well. (A different something in those two examples.)

Obama is uneven, in the sense that it is only on occasion that he has risen to make a really fully effective speech. I think his speech when the Jeremiah Wright business blew up qualifies, and so does the speech at the 2004 convention that pushed him into the limelight. That's not unusual - I don't think too many of Lincoln's speeches measured up to his Gettysburg Address, and much of Churchill's public speaking was relatively run-of-the-mill.

No different from performers really - much of the time it's going through the motions in a workmanlike way, but hitting the heights now and then.

And often enough, in both cases, it's at least as much down to the audience as the performer to enable that to happen. And also down to the occasion and the context.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Obama and Folk Performance
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 09:51 AM

Keen singer and guitar player
Now available for hire
and 'expert orator' too! :)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Obama and Folk Performance
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 11:26 AM

For an insightful look at the skills and (ab)use of oratory

Speeches of Deception

Subject: RE: Folklore: Obama and Folk Performance
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 12:00 PM

I think you'd need a pretty good grasp of Arabic to know how effective Saddam was as an orator, Emma. And somehow I don't think that oratory was a very significant element in his ability to influence people any more than was the case with Al Capone or Henry Kissinger.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Obama and Folk Performance
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 01:41 PM

I don't profess any knowledge of Arabic Kevin.

However, the book that I linked to, by examing 27 speeches (translated into English for the reader) examines Saddam's use of rhetoric by looking at the use of various common oratorial devices such as use of U.R. (unification rhetoric) etc and the benefit of 'stage management' as part of the speaker's 'performance'

The editorial review of the book on the Amazon site states -

'Without a doubt, this volume reveals that Saddam is an amazing orator who uses his special talent to obilize a nation to do his bidding. This book is a window into the present where we can witness the power Saddam Hussein's words had over the masses.

No one should forget the devastation brought about by President Saddam Hussein and this collection of 27 Speeches by the dictator is a unique opportunity to experience how words can be used to incite a nation.'

If you have any examples of Al Capone's speeches they may indeed provide a comparion

Subject: RE: Folklore: Obama and Folk Performance
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 02:42 PM

Al Capone made speeches? Who was his audience?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Obama and Folk Performance
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 03:05 PM

I think he made them with a machine gun. Very eloquent. His audience were dumbstruck.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Obama and Folk Performance
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 04:14 PM

The practice of characters concealing ordnance in musical instrument cases..........

'For criminals there come times when a pistol just isn't big enough for the job. However transporting heavier firepower in a manner that doesn't attract the attention of civilians or the police can be a problem. Enter the musical instrument case. The wide range of shapes and sizes of musical instruments means you can readily find a case for transporting any weapon you might want to conceal.

This one goes back at least as far as the Roaring Twenties when gangsters used violin and viola cases to transport Thompson submachine guns and sawed-off shotguns. With time more varied weapons have been concealed in this manner up to heavy machine guns and rocket launchers. Even today specialized cases for transporting rifles and pistols can look like musical instrument cases.

This has been done so much that nowadays when some people see a violin case, they assume it contains firearms.' !

TV Tropes

Well there has to be a connection with music ...
....... however tenuous :)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Obama and Folk Performance
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 04:52 PM

"This Machine Kills Fascists"

Subject: RE: Folklore: Obama and Folk Performance
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 05:14 PM

A fantastic DVD too

Woody's 'Performance' Method:

'Dance choreographer Sophia Maslow was trying to work with Guthrie on a dance routine to one of this songs. As she was trying to work out the steps, Maslow noticed that Guthrie almost never played the song the same way twice in a row. Finally, in her frustration, she asked Guthrie "Why do you have to stop all the time? Why can't you just sing it like you do on the record? Dancers can't work like that. They have to do it exactly the same way every time." Guthrie replied "Well, if I want to take a breath between verses, I play a few extra chords. And if I forget the lines and want to remember them, I play a few extra chords. And if I want to get up and leave town, I get up and leave town." '

." The force behind Guthrie's songs is not Guthrie's artistry, but "the voice of the common man;"
Alan Lomax

Subject: RE: Folklore: Obama and Folk Performance
From: Stringsinger
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 03:33 PM

I think the point that Seeger speaks for himself and Obama speaks for a political purpose to get elected may be a valid difference.

Pete has his point-of-view, take it or leave it. Obama's is framed for political purposes.

Folk performance means what exactly? I don't see how folk performance enters into this discussion.

Are Hitler, Billy Graham, Huey Long, and the like, folk performers?



Obama is idealized in a public image as are many religious and political leaders.
Pete has some of that going for him too. The Beatles were bigger than Jesus.

I'm not sure any comparison between Obama and a nebulous folk performance can be
made.

What folk? (Do the folk like American Idol? They vote more for those performers than for politicians.)

This is a weird thread which attempts to equate Obama with some kind of populist
movement. Not sure that really works. Most of the people I know support Obama as
an alternative to McCain.

Frank

Subject: RE: Folklore: Obama and Folk Performance
From: PoppaGator
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 04:18 PM

"It's a different style of oratory from in previous times, but it's a highly crafted style..."

Just as the advent of film forced the art of acting to change (and improve) dramatically, and the invention of the microphone brought about a revolution is singing technique, "oratory" in the age of television and the internet is something quite different from what it must have been in the times of William Jennings Bryant, or of Abe Lincoln, or for that matter even that of Demosthenes.

In all these cases, modern communication devices make the old style, unnaturally loud and slow and exaggeratedly emphatic, not only obsolete but even laughably inferior. To be a big-league public speaker in today's mass-media arena, it is necessary to integrate elements of live-crowd management with the skills necessary for intimate one-on-one communication.

It's pretty tricky, I would imagine, and demands greater versatility and subtlety than, say, modern film acting. The film actor can and must abandon the old theatrical style of "delivering lines" and simply be convincing to the close-up camera, but the public speaker needs to relate both to a camera relaying his performance to millions and also to a live audience not that much different from any crowd anyone ever addressed back in the old pre-technological days.

Anyone notably skilled in this field is exhibiting a rare and admirable talent, and even those who disagree with the content of his/her oratory should recognize its quality (if only to learn the same tricks, as much as possible, and to apply them to one's perferred agenda).