Philly Folk Fest 2008

Subject: Philly Folk Fest 2008
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 05:58 AM

We're thinking of going for the first time. Any advice for a newbie? We'd be in a motorhome, so info about best camping area (do we have a choice?) would be helpful. Any mudcatters going?

Subject: RE: Philly Folk Fest 2008
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 06:01 AM

Oh, one more thing: it's next weekend, August 15-17 and the website is at Philly Folk Fest

Subject: RE: Philly Folk Fest 2008
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 10:58 AM

Only been there once, and that was more than twenty years ago, and only for about half a day.

About the only thing I can say is "It rained."

The few acts I saw were good, but my time was very limited.

I had hoped to see how the camping was set up, as I was bound for WVA a couple of weeks after my visit there, but they seemed determined to enforce their rule that only people who camp can enter the camping area. The website indicates they still enforce that rule. With their brag about "5,000 people camp every year" they probably can enforce rules better than at WVA where there may be 18,000(?)¹ campers.

I'll watch the thread to see if I can find out anything they wouldn't tell me when I was there. (1985)

¹ WVA doesn't release figures on actual numbers. I think they must be hiding something from the IRS.

John

Subject: RE: Philly Folk Fest 2008
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 12:33 PM

18,000 campers???????? I hate to say that is hard to believe, but that is really hard to believe!    I would like to believe it because that would show that this music has a much larger audience than anyone gives it credit for.

Philly Folk draws about 20,000 people per year - and the camping scene is legendary.

It is one of my favorite festivals because of the diversity of talent that they present.   This year is going to be interesting because they are bringing in a lot of "young" performers, some of who are hard to define as "folk".   Yet they also have people like Jean Ritchie, Tom Paxton and others to appeal to more traditional tastes. As someone from the festival said "This isn't your father's folk festival, but he would want to be there."

I love the Philly Fest for the strong community that comes each year to enjoy themselves, but I can also see that not everyone wants to belong to every community.

Subject: RE: Philly Folk Fest 2008
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 05:27 PM

Yep- This oldtimer is doing a workshop in the early afternoon (something like 1:30-3:45) with Kathy Mattea, Hazel Dickens and others they haven't told me about) on Saturday. And joining a Sunday workshop- don't know yet which one. I've done the Philly Festival twice, in earlier years. If you come, say howdy!    Jean

Subject: RE: Philly Folk Fest 2008
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 05:56 PM

Wow! I did not realize that Hazel Dickens was also joining you! That is going to be an incredible workshop!! I can't wait!!!

Ron Olesko

Subject: RE: Philly Folk Fest 2008
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 07:12 PM

Kytrad, your workshop alone sounds like enough reason to go. We're hoping to go and will definitely come say howdy! ('course, my husband the banjo player is also looking to see JD Crowe, so I hope there's no conflict...)

Subject: RE: Philly Folk Fest 2008
From: GUEST,Marymac90
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 01:11 PM

Living in the Philly area, I have been to the PFF a number
of times, both camping and commuting. It was never my
favorite FF--I like Clearwater, Old Songs, Champlain Valley,
and Gottagetgon a lot better. Last time I went was about 5
years ago, so I may not be up on more recent changes.

If you are camping in a van or an RV, you want to arrive as
early on Thursday as possible, and then be prepared to WAIT!
There is a very particular way that they pack the RVs in
there! People camping in groups get there groups together
off-site, so they can be together on the grounds.

Camping in the tenting area is more like anarchy--long-
established groups who camp together get there early and get
a big chunk of land under tarps to be their "living rooms".
Vehicles are not allowed in the tenting area, even to drop
things off, so plan ahead as to how you will move your
cooler, tent, etc. Some people use hand trucks to bring in
generators, refrigerators, couches, and everything else
imaginable! People who arrive later are left to stake out
whatever territory they can grab, as long as it's not in the
fire lanes. There is a section of the tenting area that's
supposed to be quiet at night. My guess is that quiet is a
relative term, relative to the fact that the rest of the
campground can be quite noisy. A lot of the noise may well
be related to the amount of alcohol being consumed--for some
people, camping with friends and consuming alcohol seems to
be the reason for coming to the fest!

FYI, it is a long walk over hilly, rugged ground to get from
the campground to the area where the performances are.
Bring sunscreen and hats, because there is virtually no
shade in the "auditorium", except in the area where
children's concert and activities are held. There are about
3 or 4 other "workshop" stages, and a dance tent. These
workshops are very large, so if you want to get close to the
stage, get there early. Late Saturday afternoon they have a
concert with two well-known performers or bands. Then they
have "sweep", when they require everyone to leave the
"auditorium" and hang out in the "lobby" for 30-40 minutes.

People who are most anxious to stake out a plot of ground for
their group for the evening concert will make sure to leave
the afternoon concert early so they can be in the front of
the line to get back in. When the gate is opened there is a
rush for "prime real estate", so don't get in the way!
People who pay extra for reserved seating get to sit the
closest, actually get a chair, and get to sit with people
who act like they are there to hear a concert! The rest of
the people may be talking, drinking, tending to children,
dancing, or going back and forth to the refreshments, port-a-
potties or smoking area throughout the concert. For those
who are sitting a long way from the stage, there are 3 big
movie screens that show a close-up version of the act on
stage.

They do have some big-name performers, and they have a lot
of acts that appeal to young people, sort of today's version
of folk-rock. Philly is a sort-of recurring Woodstock every
year, but it doesn't always pour and creat mud--sometimes
it's hot, dry and so dusty you want a bandana to tie over
your nose and mouth. If you're getting older and have
problematic joints, you may find that during the evening
concerts, the damp cold gets in your joints. I actually
wear long underwear to the evening concerts, add sweatpants
later, and wrap in a blanket a bit later.

Hope I'm not too much of a downer!

Marymac

Subject: RE: Philly Folk Fest 2008
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 02:14 PM

Marymac- you described some of the charm of the fest!   People do not camp because they expect the comforts of home.

I do agree with you, it is not my favorite fest, but Philly has its own charm and you cannot compare apples to oranges.   Philly should not be like Old Songs, nor vice versa. There is a distinct community who enjoys the event - and that includes more than just music. You mentioned drinking, and they do not sell alcohol on the premises, but I am sure it is readily available - however, I have not witnessed any incidents in all the years I've attended. The rush for "prime real estate" is tame - try getting a subway in NYC on a Monday morning and you will see controlled anarchy!   

It's not everyones cup of tea, but it has an ambiance that many people enjoy.

Subject: RE: Philly Folk Fest 2008
From: GUEST,Marymac90
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 04:18 PM

Ron, I realize that some find the unique things about Philly charming. One of the unique things about it is how the tent
campers DO have all the comforts of home--because they bring
them in--by hand! (I used to think I was spoiled because I'd
hook up to the power in the pole barn at Old Songs to get
the juice to blow up my air mattress!)

I have volunteered on the security detail, so perhaps I have
been prepared for the possibility of more incidents than you
have witnessed. I'm sure that security at other fests has
to be prepared for various kinds of incidents, too. Philly
has rent-a-cops that check SOME coolers coming in to the "auditorium" for alcohol. There is no restriction on
alcohol in the campgrounds. Of course, when alcohol is
carried in, there is no way to restrict it to those of legal drinking age.

I've never lived in NYC, so I'm not familiar with their
subways at rush hour, but I have seen them in Philly and
Boston. Perhaps I have become someone I never anticipated
being--a suburbanite! What's more--damn close to an OLD suburbanite! At the very least, a fuddy-duddy! (shudder!)

Marymac

Subject: RE: Philly Folk Fest 2008
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 05:08 PM

Sounds like a cross between Grey Fox and Merlefest, both of which we've survived and enjoyed for the most part. We'll have to give it a try and report back. Since we'll have the comforts of home in our RV and both sing and play instruments, we can always make music despite whatever happens in the campground, although we're hoping for a few good jams or singarounds or whatever they're called at PFF. And I'm really looking forward to some of the performances and workshops.

If any mudcatters go, look us up, although I don't know where... We'll be the sober ones sitting outside our "Hurricane" with a banjo and guitar and bass and fiddle, hoping for a new song to show up in the yard.

Subject: RE: Philly Folk Fest 2008
From: Dharmabum
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 05:22 PM

Hi Barbara,
I did the PFF for 25 consecutive years from 80 to 05.
I did "heavy" camping for a couple of those early years ,but mostly did tent camping.
Marymac's advice about early arrival was dead on.
You'll find motorhomes & campers lining the roads,waiting to park all day Thursday & most of Friday.
Be prepared to wait.
You will find a certain element in the camping area that is there only to PARTY.Some never venture out to listen to live music at the concert area.Sad fact,but their loss.
It's doubtful the these folks would be any bother to you in heavy camping as the vehicle area tends to be a bit more subdued.

The PFF is an event that you should experience at least once in a lifetime.
But don't expect a quiet little "intimate" folk festival.
In the 25 years I attended,the PFF had grown quite large.
I'd always camped with a small group of like minded folkies who got in early & claimed some decent real estate.(We were never those "big tarp" people)
In the later years,I'd always run into some poor soul arriving Friday evening with nowhere left to pitch his tent.

As for the music.
I was never disapointed.
True they do seem to book more folk/rock now than before,but there's always been a fair share of the trad.stuff in the program.
Not to mention the music being played in the campground at night.(They no longer allow fires though)

The last year I attended 05,they changed the Sunday concert.
It started in the afternoon & ran straight through until 10 pm.

Other than that,I can only say,be prepared for rough/hilly terrain,& any kind of weather.
And very little shade.

They changed the dates for the PFF in 06.
It now conflicts with a fest I attend in n.central Pa.
I may return to the PFF for their 50th in a couple years.

D.B.

Subject: RE: Philly Folk Fest 2008
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 05:44 PM

Waiting to park all of Thursday? and most of Friday? Hmmmm, this is sounding less wonderful. If the gates open at 10 am Thursday, that's a looooong wait. Do you mean the line is inching along all that time, or at a complete stop for hours?

Also can't figure out their ticket pricing. I'm wondering if we both need to get an "all festival with vehicle camping" ticket plus the camping vehicle charge, or if one of us gets the vehicle camping ticket and the other the all festival ticket.

Hmmmmm...

Subject: RE: Philly Folk Fest 2008
From: Dharmabum
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 06:09 PM

It depends on where in line you are.
The line inches along,but it's a slow process.
I would guess,if you get there Thurs.am.you will get settled in by the afternoon.Only a guess.could be sooner.
As for tix,I always got the all fest w/camping.
That used to cover vehicle also,but many things have changed over the years.

I admittedly used to gripe about the long lines to get in,but I always enjoyed myself once I got settled in & started playing music.

Enjoy.

D.B.

Subject: RE: Philly Folk Fest 2008
From: SharonA
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 05:56 AM

Sharon from the northern suburbs of Philly here. Bear in mind that when you're in those long lines, you can't walk out to the corner 7-11 for refreshment. The fest is in a residential/rural part of outer suburbia. They call it the "Philadelphia" Folk Festival, but it's almost 40 miles from City Hall.

I've attended the fest several times, but never for the whole fest and definitely never camping. As Ron said, it's not my cup of tea. But I'm a friend of Marymac90 and she would never steer you wrong. Listen to her! I have heard tales about the camping, and I understand that the jamming does go on all night every night.

I can personally vouch for the part about the throat-choking dust and the boot-swallowing mud and the hilly terrain (within the festival space as well as without) and the stages and the "sweep" and the rush back onto the grounds for the evening concert. The year that I decided to spring for the "reserved seating" for an evening, I was very uncomfortable because they crammed as many folding chairs as possible into the space. There was literally NO room between one chair and the next, so everyone's butts were wedged together with no arm room, and not much leg room in front. It was a ridiculous waste of money; I would have done better to sprawl on a blanket up the hill and watch the performers projected onto the giant screens.

As Dharmabum says, it is not an intimate festival experience. In my opinion it has grown too large for the space, and has too many stages too close together. During the day, it's difficult to enjoy the music at one stage without hearing the sounds being blasted from nearby stages. Add to that the fact that the line-up increasingly includes music that differs so much from traditional folk that it can hardly be defined as "folk" at all, and it all ends up being a cacophony to my ear, and quite unpleasant.

So it has become my habit to check the schedule and, if one afternoon and/or evening sounds too tempting to pass up, I'll venture out. But more often than not, I've skipped it altogether. Guess you probably won't see me there, but if it's your cup of tea, have a blast!!! :^)

Sharon

P.S. -- Hi, Marymac and Dharmabum!

Subject: RE: Philly Folk Fest 2008
From: SharonA
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 06:17 AM

About those camping ticket prices: I took a look at the website, and from what I can discern you have to buy one "all-festival ticket with vehicle camping" ticket per person ($177 per person), PLUS pay a "camping vehicle charge" of $25 per vehicle.

Subject: RE: Philly Folk Fest 2008
From: SharonA
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 06:39 AM

(I don't think you can get away with having one person buy the "all-festival with vehicle camping" ticket and the other person buy just the "all-festival" ticket because both of you will be camping -- using the grounds 24/7, enjoying the advantage of jamming on the premises, etc.) (Nice try, though!)

Subject: RE: Philly Folk Fest 2008
From: GUEST,Marymac90
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 03:15 AM

As my bud SharonA says, you will both have to get a camping
ticket, because that's the only way to get a wristband that
admits you to the campground. They do have people checking
at all gates to the campground 24/7.

I would say get your RV in line as early Thurs. am as you
can, and then be prepared to wait. Do have food and
beverages accessible in your car. Yhe long term weather
forecast gave a high of 84 most days this week--that's
nearly perfect for August around here! And despite all my
doom and gloom, I hope you have a lot of fun!

I wish I could come for kytrad's workshop and some other
stuff, but I can't afford the ticket, and I'm trying to
cut down on unneccessary driving. It's probably 60+ miles
from where I live now, one way.

Hi SharonA!

Marymac

Subject: RE: Philly Folk Fest 2008
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 07:54 PM

I really appreciate all the replies, but now it's looking like life in suburbia and home ownership are going to keep us from attending. A hidden water leak turning into a major mold problem was suddenly discovered, and it would be tough backing away from the plumbers and carpenters and microbiologists and hazmat specialists and claims adjusters to go relax at a festival... Sheeeesh...

Subject: RE: Philly Folk Fest 2008
From: SharonA
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 11:19 PM

Oh dear! What a shame. Hope you can get the mold problem treated and under control with as little hassle as possible. There will always be other festivals. Good luck to you!

Subject: RE: Philly Folk Fest 2008
From: GUEST,Marymac90
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 12:30 AM

I echo SharonA's sentiments 100%. I used to share a house
until the owners decided to sell it. As they were moving
their belongings out, a mold problem was discovered. It
was a big deal to eliminate it so the house could be sold.
I hope by getting it treated pronto, you can eliminate
this problem very soon. Then you can relax and enjoy the
rest of the summer.

Marymac

Subject: RE: Philly Folk Fest 2008
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 10:16 AM

May still make it. The mold is enclosed, waiting for the "remediators" to come. It can all wait until next week so we can get a music fix, methinks.

Subject: RE: Philly Folk Fest 2008
From: GUEST,Marymac90
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 11:38 AM

That's wonderful, Barbara! Have a great time!
The weather looks to be as close to perfect as
it ever gets for fest!

Marymac

Subject: RE: Philly Folk Fest 2008
From: SharonA
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 07:04 AM

...which is to say, they're calling for sun & clouds, with isolated showers. Care to bet where that isolated spot will be???!!! :^)

Have fun! I'll be "down the shore" (at least today and tomorrow), thinking of you.

Sharon

Subject: RE: Philly Folk Fest 2008
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 07:25 PM

We went! Will give a report and link to pictures after I get some sleep. Most unique festival I've ever been to...

Subject: RE: Philly Folk Fest 2008
From: Greg B
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 09:01 PM

We enjoyed Tempest at John and Peter's in New Hope on Wednesday
night, pre-fest. $15 a head, and at one point had Mike sitting
playing his fiddle at our table. Though I'm in Doylestown, I
find that the Middletown Grange Fair attracts me more than PFF,
based on the descriptions.

Must be getting old...

Subject: RE: Philly Folk Fest 2008
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 11:28 AM

It was quite an experience, and everything said above is true, true, true. We were loners, whereas most people there were camped with their "tribes" of anywhere from 10 to 1000 people! There were amazingly elaborate camps set up, and I regret that I didn't get any photos of the great ones. Too awed. The tents were virtually overlapping each other, they were so close, and there were no cars in that area. "Heavy camping" was the upper area where we and all the other RVs were camped.

Our first location was on the main drag directly across from the Refrigeration Truck, which ran a generator 24/7. After first counting ourselves lucky to be on the end and therefore able to leave when we wanted, I realized I would go stark raving mad with that LOUD generator running continuously, with no reprieve at 9:00 pm when the generators were to be turned off. So I found a friendly parking volunteer who helped us find another spot! Not a great neighborhood, kind of on the edge of everything, but much better than generator hell.

The people were wonderful, very friendly, fairly tame compared to festivals like Grey Fox. The kids were mostly there for the party, and party they did, but even they were mostly polite and subdued, although there was an abundance of drinking going on at all hours. Many of the "kids" had their own babies with them, in fact. Most had been going to this festival for years. All were very nice except the one guy who moved our audience seats back while we were at the vendors and put himself in front of us! We talked about him throughout the set and remarked on what we thought of types like him, so I doubt he enjoyed his slightly better view...

Jean Ritchie's workshop was wonderful, and I managed to get a few pictures. Couldn't stand the sun for long though, so I missed the end of it and didn't catch her to say hello. Jean, your stories and songs were great, and what an amazing voice your son has! I was the one with a big green golf umbrella shielding me from the neck down and my program blocking the sun on my neck, plus a brimmed hat. Nothing but eyes showing, but hot!

It was a nice fest, but we probably wouldn't go back unless we could convince some of our own "tribe" to join us. No jamming for us, except for one nice man called Eddie from New Jersey, who played our bass until he had to take his sick wife home. Oh, and our young neighbor dragged a couple of his buddies over with bass and guitar to meet us and play a few songs one night. Kind of like meeting the elders, I suspect. We saw them later (see photo called Street Corner Jam).

Really enjoyed Amy Speace, Red Molly, The Felice Brothers, Jean Ritchie, Kathy Mattea, Ben & Jerry, others. Still have knots in my calves from hiking up and down the hills to get anywhere.

I could go on at much more length with many anecdotes, but let me just post the link to photos I took. Not the complete picture but I caught a few good ones: Philadelphia Folk Fest 2008

Subject: RE: Philly Folk Fest 2008
From: GLoux
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 02:47 PM

Barbara,

Thank you for your post and all of the great photos. I couldn't make it this year and your excellent "coverage" took me as close as I could get.

-Greg

Subject: RE: Philly Folk Fest 2008
From: GUEST,Marymac90
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 03:20 PM

Barbara, I'm glad you had a good time, despite the
challenging parts of it. I'm also glad I gave you a
fairly accurate picture of Philly, so you were prepared!
If the young folks are wilder at Grey Fox, remind me
never to go to that one! For some "tamer" weekend-long
festivals in this area, you might try Spring Gulch in
Lancaster County in May, or Delaware Valley Bluegrass
Fest in Salem county, NJ, Labor Day Weekend. Happy
hunting for a festival that suits you!

All the best,

Marymac

Subject: RE: Philly Folk Fest 2008
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 03:50 PM

I had a really good time at Philly this year. The "changes" seemed to work. I think the blend of styles kept everyone happy - or at least had something for everyone.   The workshop with Kathy Mattea and Jean Ritchie was amazing, I'm sorry that Hazel Dickens could not attend.

I do love the energy, excitment, creativity, and enthusiasm of the crowd at Philly! It also appeared to be well attended this year, and I hope it is a good sign as they get closer to their 50th anniversary!

Subject: RE: Philly Folk Fest 2008
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 04:07 PM

Marymac, thank you and the others for your descriptions. It did help a lot and was appreciated.

We go to Grey Fox every year, but it's definitely not for everyone and is in fact much wilder than Philly -in terms of rowdy kids getting too drunk and making noise. (Wow, Oldfarthood has struck me down). But more folks at Grey Fox are there for the music instead of just the party, which seemed not to be the primary incentive among the kids at Philly. Each time we walked through the Philly tent area after being in the concert area, most of the kids were in residence in their camps and apparently hadn't gone down to see any concerts. It was in fact almost eerie, viewing dozens upon dozens of settlements with kids sitting, hovering quietly in their rows upon rows of encampments, perhaps like refugee villages waiting for liberation. That was during the day, and then at night they would all be standing, still pretty much quartered under their own canopies, drinking, laughing, having a good time.

The other thing I forgot to mention is that so many people were in what I can only call costumes! OK, I grew up in the 60's and know a sub-culture when I see one, but some of these folks were dressed in totally outrageous, fascinating getups. Of course there was tie-dye and rayon in abundance, but also many, many guys in kilts (I love the look, Frank says "forget it") some in traditional dress from other countries, lots of Dr Seuss hats, masks, giant head gear, more.

We have in fact been to the Delaware Valley BG Fest and enjoyed it, although there wasn't as much pickin' as we like. There too, people seemed to go with their friends and stick with their friends. We go to other festivals where you start a jam and total strangers will walk up and join in with songs you've never heard...that's what I love! On Labor Day weekend we go to Thomas Point Beach BG Festival in Brunswick, Maine every year (except for the year we went to Delaware Valley), but rumor has it that she sold the park and this is the last year. So maybe we'll make it back to NJ next year.

Subject: RE: Philly Folk Fest 2008
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 05:07 PM

Given the population demographics of Philadelphia, I'm wondering if there were any non-White people at that festival. Looking at Barbara's photos, it seems that there were only White people at that festival. I'm also wondering if that was the case, and if that is generally the case at other American folk festivals or British folk festivals. To phrase my question another way, do any of these festivals have a significant number of non-White attendees? I'm also curious if any of these festivals {in the USA but also in Great Britain} have a significant number of non-White performers? {Of course, one would have to say what the definition of "significant" is. I would say "any to more than a sprinkling".

Also, the fifth annual Black Women's Festival occurred in Philadelphia a week or so before the Philly Folk Fest occurred. Here's an online summary of that festival from
http://www.visitpa.com/visitpa/event.pa?id=19599085

"5th Annual Black Women's Arts Festival @ First Unitarian Church
"July 31, 2008 - August 3, 2008
Now in its fifth year BWAF has become a non-profit which produces a once-yearly 4-day festival showcasing: Music/Live Performance, Literary Arts, Visual Arts, Film, Workshops, Vendors, and Dance/Theater. It also hosts over 60 artists from across the globe. Most of BWAF's events are taking place in West Philadelphia (Kaffa Crossing, Metropolitan Bakery & Cafe, The Rotunda), with one happening in Center City (First Unitarian Church) and the other in Old City (Vivant Art Collection). Ticket prices range from $10-$15 with special ticket packages and our full schedule of programming online at http://www.bwafphilly.org. "

**

I understand that the purposes of these festivals are different. But it seems to me that there might be some shared purposes. However, maybe the aesthetics tastes for music & dance performances are too different between White Americans and Black Americans to bridge the gaps and "folk" music will mainly always be considered "White music" and not music all of the people and from all the people.

I'm interested in Mudcat members/guests opinions about this.

Thanks.

Subject: RE: Philly Folk Fest 2008
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 05:19 PM

"I'm wondering if there were any non-White people at that festival."

Audience or performers, or both?

For the performers, it was predominately white, but there were a number of non-white (African American, Latino,and Asian)performers.   These artists offered contemporary styles as well as more traditional offerings, including sacred steel.   

As far as the audience, there was even very little non-white - that I could see. To be honest, and this is not trying to sound like co-out answer, I really wasn't paying attention. I probably should have, because I think it is an important topic, and one that should probably be in a thread by itself. Philadelphia Folk Festival is not unique in this sort of representation. I really believe that this year they made an attempt, but who are they trying to reach and how? The same goes for just about any festival that books itself under the word "folk".

Subject: RE: Philly Folk Fest 2008
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 06:44 PM

Ron, thanks for your response to my questions.

If you or some one else starts a thread on the subject of race/ethnicity and folk festivals/events, I'll post to it. However, I would prefer not to start such a discussion thread myself.

**

Btw, you mentioned "sacred steel" in your comments. What did you mean by that? I'm assuming that you don't mean "steel drums" {pans} that originated in Trinidad.

Subject: RE: Philly Folk Fest 2008
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 06:59 PM

Sacred Steel is a style that developed in African-American churches in the 1930's. It developed from Hawaiian steel guitar and pedal steel guitar players who brought it into a Pentecostal church that traveled the country. I believe it was popular in Florida and some other Southern states. There are a number of artists who play this gospel style of music, and there have been a couple of Sacred Steel Conventions which were recorded by Arhoolie Records.

One of the most popular groups is the Campbell Brothers who tour the country. They put on an amazing show.

Subject: RE: Philly Folk Fest 2008
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 07:16 PM

Thanks, again Ron for sharing that information.

I've never heard of "sacred steel" before. You mentioned that this tradition was popular in the South. Maybe I don't know it because I was raised and lived in the North and have rarely been in the Southern USA states {I have no Southern relatives that I know of}. Also, I can count the number of times on both hands that I've been in Pentacostal churches.

I'll have to read more about that tradition.

Subject: RE: Philly Folk Fest 2008
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 07:19 PM

I'm not sure how widespread it is, but there are a number of groups that still perform the style and issue recordings.   I know that there are still churches that utilize it.   The group at Philly was the Lee Boys - www.leeboys.com

Subject: RE: Philly Folk Fest 2008
From: Greg B
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 07:52 PM

For years at Mystic Seaport, there's been a major "diversity" push.

We've had Odetta, the Buckingham track-lining gang, the Menhaden
Shanteymen, a couple of groups from the Georgia sea-isles, the
Baroullie Whalers (sp?), etc. Some of these acts were more about
'diversity' than maritime. All had a good time and were well-received,
except for the one who sucked, and I'm not going to name names.

Did the African-American folks from around the area show up in
any numbers?

Nope.

Even in the year of Amistad? Ferchrissakes they build the bleedin'
SHIP!

Nope.

In the year of "Black Hands, Blue Seas?"

Nope.

Was that our problem?

Nope.

My conclusion?

There are enough risks and costs associated with putting on a
festival without white folks trying to make folks of color go where
they don't choose to go on their own. Hell, that's what started all
the trouble in the first place, now isn't it?

It's just not worth the head-space.

You could book "Sweet Honey in the Rock" and "Ladysmith Black
Mambazo" and Clifton Chenier and Queen Ida and Josh White Jr
and a half dozen other African and African-American acts and
put 'em on together at Philly Folk and you'd STILL have an overwhelmingly white audience because the GENRE just hasn't penetrated into the African-American community effectively.

Then again, if you booked those acts, the standard, white,
folkies would be out there clapping and whooping and hollering
and buying CDs just like they always do.

Then again, the 'folk revival' started with a bunch of WASPs
and Jews in New York singing spirituals at coffee houses, so
whaddya expect?

Then again, when the odd person of color does show up at such
an event, nobody is gonna look at him or her funny, or exclude
them from a song-circle or not want to camp next to them or make
them anything less than just plain old welcome.

Maybe that's the point.

Door's open. Has been for decades.

Subject: RE: Philly Folk Fest 2008
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 07:59 PM

Things might be changing.

The Carolina Chocolate Drops are attracting a lost of attention.

I saw young people at Clifftop this year I never expected to see in my lifetime.

Russ (Permanent GUEST and old time musician)

Subject: RE: Philly Folk Fest 2008
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 08:01 PM

I appreciate your answer, Greg B, and will give it the additional thought that it deserves.

And I will go you one step further... I think that the majority of African Amerians would not recognize the names "Sweet Honey in the Rock" and "Ladysmith Black Mambazo" and Clifton Chenier and Queen Ida and Josh White Jr".

I know that we {African Americans} have much work to in the "know and respect our heritage" area.

Subject: RE: Philly Folk Fest 2008
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 08:04 PM

Hmmm, I had to think awhile and replay some of the scenes from the festival to remember if anyone was non-white. Wasn't particularly aware of any race, which may just be me, although I would have surely noticed if I was the only white person. After some thought, I remembered that one of our neighbors in the camping area was a black woman married to a white man. We actually spent quite a bit of time chatting with them one day, and now that I think of it she had said that her mother was from France and the family had spent a month's vacation in Africa last year, which brought to the front of my consciousness that she was black.

We did catch some of the sacred steel band, which was basically rock, billed as an African-American sacred steel ensemble. I think I took a photo of them -one of those in the distance you can't make out, probably. Let's see, I did notice one or two black children with white mothers and one or two Asian children with white mothers. Also a few Asian families and a few black families. (I always notice the kids). The ukelele soloist was Hawaiian, I believe. There was a middle-aged black woman at the instrument booth when I stopped there, telling the proprietor that she suddenly discovered she needed a banjo in her life! (I wanted to warn her to back away slowly from the booth...) Can't recall any Hispanics, although there may have been some.

These are little tidbits culled from many, many faces and scenes over the weekend. Probably signifying that there were some but not many non-whites at the festival.

Subject: RE: Philly Folk Fest 2008
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 08:14 PM

"put 'em on together at Philly Folk and you'd STILL have an overwhelmingly white audience because the GENRE just hasn't penetrated into the African-American community effectively."

The problem is, statements like that make an assumption about what the GENRE is.   Perhaps the festival has not penetrated the African-American community into the definition of what is supposed to be folk music.

Folk music is about a lot of different traditions.   For instance, why is blues considered a genre unto itself instead of a folk music, which it really is as it fits the definition given by most musicologists?   The problem is that the audiences that support events like Philly or Newport have a very set definition of what "folk music" is supposed to be.

Subject: RE: Philly Folk Fest 2008
From: SharonA
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 08:58 PM

Take into account, too, what I said earlier in this thread: the "Philadelphia" Folk Festival is not held IN the city of Philadelphia but nearly 40 miles away from City Hall (which is in the dead-center of "Center City" Philly). The fest is held on the "Old Pool Farm" and is close to other farms, fields, and woods. There is no access to the fest from the city via public transportation. Therefore, Azizi, the population demographics of the city of Philadelphia are a moot point here. Better to think of it in terms of the demographics of what's called the "greater Philadelphia area" which includes the surrounding counties, or perhaps think in terms of the demographics of area automobile owners!

The other fest you mention (the Black Women's Arts Festival) was held within the city limits and in areas of the city where the African-American population is comparatively high, especially West Philadelphia. That fest appears to have a much narrower focus, concentrating on the achievements of black women in the arts, which would naturally have a greater appeal for people who would feel a cultural connection. There are any number of similarly focused celebrations of different cultures held in Philly and its environs throughout the year. Trying to compare any one of them to the PFF is like comparing apples and oranges, if not apples and fire engines.

I'm not sure why many African-Americans don't seem to feel a cultural interest in or connection to folk music, especially since the Philadelphia Folksong Society (which puts on the Philly Folk Fest) defines folk music so broadly. So much of it is derived from African music preserved by the slaves in America -- in instrumentation as well as tunes and lyrics -- that I would say African music is an integral part of American folk music.

Subject: RE: Philly Folk Fest 2008
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 09:20 PM

SharonA, I appreciate the fact that those festivals do not have the exact same purposes. Yet, it seems to me that there probably is or should be some shared goals, and perhaps even some shared {meaning, the same} performers..

Also, I appreciate the fact the subject of non-White people's attitudes towards and awareness of the folk music "scene/s" and events in the USA and probably also in European nations {and Australia? etc} is very complicated.

I suppose if we succeeded in "sussing" out the myriad reasons why there is very little non-White attendance at folk festivals, we'd also understand why there are so few African Americans and other people of color who are posting on Mudcat now, and who have ever posted on Mudcat since this forum's inception.

Subject: RE: Philly Folk Fest 2008
From: SharonA
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 09:22 PM

Can't resist asking -- the devil's advocate horns are poking out of my head -- what sort of an outcry would there be if any group dared hold an event that they dared call a "White Women's Arts Festival"? *wry grin*

Subject: RE: Philly Folk Fest 2008
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 09:24 PM

SharonA, I rest my case and I didn't even have to make it.

Subject: RE: Philly Folk Fest 2008
From: SharonA
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 09:28 PM

Azizi, not sure what that means but I'm not going to ask. Don't really want to know. Logging off now.

Subject: RE: Philly Folk Fest 2008
From: GUEST,Tom Nelligan
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 11:19 PM

Regarding ethnically diverse audiences at festivals... the Lowell Folk Festival in Massachusetts, which is a 100% traditional festival that every year presents a wide variety of music from numerous cultures and traditions, draws an enormous audience that is representative of the greater Lowell community -- lots of Southeast Asians and Latinos in addition to us middle-aged Euro-American folkies. The trick is that after 27 or so years the LFF has been promoted as and has become a major community event, a big happy block party that lots of people who won't go another "folk" event the rest of the year attend regularly. Plus, people have been drawn in by the fact that most of the food stands are run by local churches and social clubs, which automatically brings in non-folkies though those affilliations. And results in the sight of, say, little Cambodian-American kids dancing to a band from Quebec, which is pretty neat.

Whether you could ever get the same mix at a singer/songwriter festival is another question.

Subject: RE: Philly Folk Fest 2008
From: Dharmabum
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 08:32 AM

Thanks for the pics Barbara.
That brought back alot of good memories.

The tent camping area is like entering a different dimention.
Some of the camps are so elaborate it's hard to imagine them being put up & taken down in such a short period of time.

Speaking of P.F.F.memories,here's one I'd like to share.
In 1980 or 81,they were filming a documentary about the fest,narrated by Oscar Brand.
At one of the evening concerts at the main stage,we were hit with a pretty major downpour.(A common occurance at the pff)
And as usual,the music continued on stage irregardless of what was happening in the audience.

Well,I had never gotten the chance to see that doc.
That is until the last PFF that I attended in 05.
On Thursday night at the camp stage they showed it.
And wouldn't you know it,there was that 5 seconds of fame that was missing in my life.
There I was, 25 years younger,front row,wearing a black plastic garbage bag,up to my knees in mud,dancing up a storm,in a storm,to Bill Harrell & the Virginians.

I'd love to have a copy of that doc.
But when I inquired about purchasing a copy from the PFF,I was told there were none available for purchase.
If anyone here knows where I might be able to acquire a copy let me know.

Anyway,Barbara,I'm glad you enjoyed the fest.
Like I said,It's something you have to experience at least once in your life.
Providing your not parked near the "reefer"truck.

D.B.