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BS: War in Georgia (2008)

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GUEST,Sawzaw 08 Aug 08 - 10:52 AM
irishenglish 08 Aug 08 - 11:04 AM
bankley 08 Aug 08 - 11:09 AM
beardedbruce 08 Aug 08 - 11:12 AM
Wesley S 08 Aug 08 - 11:40 AM
Teribus 08 Aug 08 - 11:46 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 08 Aug 08 - 11:59 AM
irishenglish 08 Aug 08 - 12:15 PM
jimmyt 08 Aug 08 - 12:19 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 08 Aug 08 - 12:35 PM
greg stephens 08 Aug 08 - 12:45 PM
Wesley S 08 Aug 08 - 12:46 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 08 Aug 08 - 01:05 PM
Little Hawk 08 Aug 08 - 01:48 PM
irishenglish 08 Aug 08 - 01:58 PM
Little Hawk 08 Aug 08 - 02:04 PM
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GUEST,Volgadon 08 Aug 08 - 02:23 PM
Little Hawk 08 Aug 08 - 02:27 PM
akenaton 09 Aug 08 - 05:23 AM
akenaton 09 Aug 08 - 05:27 AM
Bonzo3legs 09 Aug 08 - 05:43 AM
Riginslinger 09 Aug 08 - 10:10 AM
Little Hawk 09 Aug 08 - 10:48 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 09 Aug 08 - 12:38 PM
CarolC 09 Aug 08 - 01:15 PM
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GUEST,Mike in DC 09 Aug 08 - 01:50 PM
GUEST,Sawzaw 09 Aug 08 - 06:30 PM
Bonzo3legs 09 Aug 08 - 06:38 PM
bubblyrat 10 Aug 08 - 06:23 PM
CarolC 10 Aug 08 - 06:54 PM
CarolC 10 Aug 08 - 10:54 PM
Peace 10 Aug 08 - 11:12 PM
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Peace 10 Aug 08 - 11:38 PM
Little Hawk 10 Aug 08 - 11:45 PM
CarolC 10 Aug 08 - 11:48 PM
CarolC 10 Aug 08 - 11:49 PM
Teribus 11 Aug 08 - 12:34 AM
CarolC 11 Aug 08 - 01:16 AM
CarolC 11 Aug 08 - 01:33 AM
CarolC 11 Aug 08 - 01:45 AM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 11 Aug 08 - 04:26 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 11 Aug 08 - 05:38 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 11 Aug 08 - 06:44 AM
Paul Burke 11 Aug 08 - 08:12 AM
GUEST,Ron Davies 11 Aug 08 - 08:21 AM
kendall 11 Aug 08 - 09:49 AM
Teribus 11 Aug 08 - 10:05 AM
GUEST,number 6 11 Aug 08 - 11:39 AM
pdq 11 Aug 08 - 12:12 PM
beardedbruce 11 Aug 08 - 12:30 PM
Peace 11 Aug 08 - 12:34 PM
GUEST,number 6 11 Aug 08 - 12:38 PM
CarolC 11 Aug 08 - 12:45 PM
Little Hawk 11 Aug 08 - 12:46 PM
beardedbruce 11 Aug 08 - 12:46 PM
CarolC 11 Aug 08 - 12:51 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 11 Aug 08 - 01:02 PM
beardedbruce 11 Aug 08 - 01:05 PM
Little Hawk 11 Aug 08 - 01:06 PM
kendall 11 Aug 08 - 01:12 PM
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GUEST,Jack the Sailor 11 Aug 08 - 01:21 PM
pdq 11 Aug 08 - 01:28 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 11 Aug 08 - 01:50 PM
CarolC 11 Aug 08 - 01:58 PM
CarolC 11 Aug 08 - 02:01 PM
Little Hawk 11 Aug 08 - 02:09 PM
pdq 11 Aug 08 - 02:23 PM
Little Hawk 11 Aug 08 - 02:39 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 11 Aug 08 - 02:40 PM
Leadbelly 11 Aug 08 - 02:42 PM
Little Hawk 11 Aug 08 - 02:44 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 11 Aug 08 - 02:45 PM
beardedbruce 11 Aug 08 - 02:52 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 11 Aug 08 - 02:52 PM
beardedbruce 11 Aug 08 - 02:58 PM
Bobert 11 Aug 08 - 03:04 PM
Leadbelly 11 Aug 08 - 03:13 PM
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GUEST,Jack the Sailor 11 Aug 08 - 03:38 PM
Bobert 11 Aug 08 - 04:22 PM
CarolC 11 Aug 08 - 04:39 PM
CarolC 11 Aug 08 - 04:45 PM
Peter T. 11 Aug 08 - 04:46 PM
GUEST,heric 11 Aug 08 - 04:57 PM
GUEST,Jack The Sailor 11 Aug 08 - 05:23 PM
Peace 11 Aug 08 - 05:23 PM
Riginslinger 11 Aug 08 - 05:36 PM
Little Hawk 11 Aug 08 - 06:01 PM
Peace 11 Aug 08 - 06:06 PM
Peace 11 Aug 08 - 06:41 PM
skarpi 11 Aug 08 - 06:52 PM
Peace 11 Aug 08 - 08:41 PM
Paul Burke 12 Aug 08 - 03:30 AM
GUEST,Ron Davies 12 Aug 08 - 04:50 AM
Peace 12 Aug 08 - 06:14 AM
Peace 12 Aug 08 - 06:19 AM
GUEST,Ron Davies 12 Aug 08 - 07:21 AM
beardedbruce 12 Aug 08 - 08:05 AM
Peace 12 Aug 08 - 08:11 AM
bankley 12 Aug 08 - 08:25 AM
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beardedbruce 12 Aug 08 - 09:17 AM
beardedbruce 12 Aug 08 - 09:18 AM
Peace 12 Aug 08 - 09:23 AM
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Peace 12 Aug 08 - 09:35 AM
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beardedbruce 12 Aug 08 - 09:49 AM
Peace 12 Aug 08 - 09:50 AM
Peace 12 Aug 08 - 09:51 AM
beardedbruce 12 Aug 08 - 09:53 AM
Peace 12 Aug 08 - 09:54 AM
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Peace 12 Aug 08 - 10:34 AM
Little Hawk 12 Aug 08 - 12:26 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 12 Aug 08 - 12:46 PM
pdq 12 Aug 08 - 01:05 PM
Little Hawk 12 Aug 08 - 01:08 PM
Leadbelly 12 Aug 08 - 01:13 PM
beardedbruce 12 Aug 08 - 01:13 PM
Little Hawk 12 Aug 08 - 01:17 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 12 Aug 08 - 01:25 PM
Leadbelly 12 Aug 08 - 01:29 PM
Little Hawk 12 Aug 08 - 01:30 PM
beardedbruce 12 Aug 08 - 01:52 PM
Leadbelly 12 Aug 08 - 02:00 PM
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pdq 12 Aug 08 - 02:06 PM
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CarolC 12 Aug 08 - 02:32 PM
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Little Hawk 12 Aug 08 - 02:40 PM
pdq 12 Aug 08 - 02:43 PM
beardedbruce 12 Aug 08 - 02:47 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 12 Aug 08 - 03:07 PM
CarolC 12 Aug 08 - 03:10 PM
pdq 12 Aug 08 - 03:14 PM
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pdq 12 Aug 08 - 03:49 PM
akenaton 12 Aug 08 - 03:49 PM
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akenaton 12 Aug 08 - 04:11 PM
Little Hawk 12 Aug 08 - 04:45 PM
CarolC 12 Aug 08 - 04:50 PM
Little Hawk 12 Aug 08 - 04:55 PM
pdq 12 Aug 08 - 04:58 PM
Little Hawk 12 Aug 08 - 05:02 PM
CarolC 12 Aug 08 - 05:05 PM
pdq 12 Aug 08 - 05:11 PM
bobad 12 Aug 08 - 05:14 PM
pdq 12 Aug 08 - 05:27 PM
Little Hawk 12 Aug 08 - 05:30 PM
Bonzo3legs 12 Aug 08 - 05:43 PM
pdq 12 Aug 08 - 05:43 PM
Little Hawk 12 Aug 08 - 05:45 PM
Little Hawk 12 Aug 08 - 05:57 PM
CarolC 12 Aug 08 - 06:19 PM
pdq 12 Aug 08 - 06:27 PM
akenaton 12 Aug 08 - 06:30 PM
Little Hawk 12 Aug 08 - 06:38 PM
pdq 12 Aug 08 - 06:38 PM
Little Hawk 12 Aug 08 - 06:45 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 12 Aug 08 - 06:57 PM
pdq 12 Aug 08 - 06:58 PM
Nickhere 12 Aug 08 - 07:06 PM
Little Hawk 12 Aug 08 - 07:13 PM
heric 12 Aug 08 - 07:29 PM
pdq 12 Aug 08 - 07:42 PM
heric 12 Aug 08 - 08:13 PM
RobbieWilson 12 Aug 08 - 08:20 PM
pdq 12 Aug 08 - 08:26 PM
Riginslinger 12 Aug 08 - 09:30 PM
Little Hawk 13 Aug 08 - 01:07 AM
GUEST,Joy Bringer 13 Aug 08 - 02:09 AM
Leadbelly 13 Aug 08 - 05:13 AM
beardedbruce 13 Aug 08 - 06:29 AM
beardedbruce 13 Aug 08 - 06:55 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 13 Aug 08 - 08:52 AM
Sandy Mc Lean 13 Aug 08 - 09:47 AM
beardedbruce 13 Aug 08 - 10:52 AM
Teribus 13 Aug 08 - 11:09 AM
beardedbruce 13 Aug 08 - 11:18 AM
heric 13 Aug 08 - 11:19 AM
pdq 13 Aug 08 - 11:26 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 13 Aug 08 - 11:43 AM
beardedbruce 13 Aug 08 - 02:01 PM
Little Hawk 13 Aug 08 - 02:03 PM
CarolC 13 Aug 08 - 02:08 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 13 Aug 08 - 02:09 PM
CarolC 13 Aug 08 - 02:10 PM
beardedbruce 13 Aug 08 - 02:11 PM
CarolC 13 Aug 08 - 02:19 PM
beardedbruce 13 Aug 08 - 02:21 PM
CarolC 13 Aug 08 - 02:25 PM
CarolC 13 Aug 08 - 02:29 PM
CarolC 13 Aug 08 - 02:30 PM
Little Hawk 13 Aug 08 - 02:31 PM
Little Hawk 13 Aug 08 - 02:36 PM
gnu 13 Aug 08 - 02:51 PM
CarolC 13 Aug 08 - 03:03 PM
CarolC 13 Aug 08 - 03:07 PM
pdq 13 Aug 08 - 03:16 PM
Stringsinger 13 Aug 08 - 03:24 PM
CarolC 13 Aug 08 - 03:31 PM
pdq 13 Aug 08 - 03:49 PM
CarolC 13 Aug 08 - 04:08 PM
Little Hawk 13 Aug 08 - 04:16 PM
GUEST,Ron Davies 13 Aug 08 - 04:21 PM
Teribus 13 Aug 08 - 04:48 PM
Riginslinger 13 Aug 08 - 05:01 PM
pdq 13 Aug 08 - 05:16 PM
CarolC 13 Aug 08 - 05:33 PM
CarolC 13 Aug 08 - 05:45 PM
Donuel 13 Aug 08 - 05:51 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 Aug 08 - 06:17 PM
pdq 13 Aug 08 - 06:31 PM
Richard Bridge 13 Aug 08 - 06:32 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 Aug 08 - 06:44 PM
Riginslinger 13 Aug 08 - 07:04 PM
pdq 13 Aug 08 - 07:14 PM
CarolC 13 Aug 08 - 09:03 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 13 Aug 08 - 09:52 PM
bankley 13 Aug 08 - 10:34 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 13 Aug 08 - 10:43 PM
pdq 13 Aug 08 - 10:48 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 13 Aug 08 - 10:55 PM
Paul Burke 14 Aug 08 - 03:27 AM
GUEST,Ron Davies 14 Aug 08 - 06:09 AM
beardedbruce 14 Aug 08 - 07:50 AM
Teribus 14 Aug 08 - 07:57 AM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 14 Aug 08 - 08:02 AM
beardedbruce 14 Aug 08 - 08:11 AM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 14 Aug 08 - 08:19 AM
pdq 14 Aug 08 - 09:34 AM
Little Hawk 14 Aug 08 - 09:46 AM
Donuel 14 Aug 08 - 09:57 AM
Donuel 14 Aug 08 - 10:06 AM
Little Hawk 14 Aug 08 - 10:10 AM
Paul Burke 14 Aug 08 - 10:20 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 14 Aug 08 - 10:36 AM
Bobert 14 Aug 08 - 10:40 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 14 Aug 08 - 11:01 AM
Little Hawk 14 Aug 08 - 11:39 AM
Teribus 14 Aug 08 - 11:55 AM
Little Hawk 14 Aug 08 - 12:16 PM
bankley 14 Aug 08 - 12:50 PM
Teribus 14 Aug 08 - 01:01 PM
Bobert 14 Aug 08 - 01:08 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 14 Aug 08 - 01:11 PM
Little Hawk 14 Aug 08 - 01:17 PM
beardedbruce 14 Aug 08 - 01:26 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 14 Aug 08 - 01:45 PM
Bobert 14 Aug 08 - 01:51 PM
beardedbruce 14 Aug 08 - 02:17 PM
Leadbelly 14 Aug 08 - 02:31 PM
beardedbruce 14 Aug 08 - 02:33 PM
beardedbruce 14 Aug 08 - 02:34 PM
bankley 14 Aug 08 - 02:35 PM
Bobert 14 Aug 08 - 03:23 PM
beardedbruce 14 Aug 08 - 03:44 PM
CarolC 14 Aug 08 - 03:49 PM
bankley 14 Aug 08 - 03:52 PM
CarolC 14 Aug 08 - 04:07 PM
CarolC 14 Aug 08 - 04:10 PM
Little Hawk 14 Aug 08 - 04:19 PM
beardedbruce 14 Aug 08 - 04:23 PM
GUEST,lox 14 Aug 08 - 04:28 PM
CarolC 14 Aug 08 - 04:47 PM
Bobert 14 Aug 08 - 04:47 PM
Little Hawk 14 Aug 08 - 04:47 PM
beardedbruce 14 Aug 08 - 04:53 PM
CarolC 14 Aug 08 - 04:55 PM
Little Hawk 14 Aug 08 - 04:58 PM
beardedbruce 14 Aug 08 - 04:58 PM
GUEST,lox 14 Aug 08 - 05:00 PM
Little Hawk 14 Aug 08 - 05:00 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 14 Aug 08 - 05:01 PM
Bobert 14 Aug 08 - 05:03 PM
CarolC 14 Aug 08 - 05:10 PM
beardedbruce 14 Aug 08 - 05:20 PM
akenaton 14 Aug 08 - 05:22 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 14 Aug 08 - 05:23 PM
CarolC 14 Aug 08 - 05:24 PM
beardedbruce 14 Aug 08 - 05:28 PM
beardedbruce 14 Aug 08 - 05:30 PM
CarolC 14 Aug 08 - 05:32 PM
CarolC 14 Aug 08 - 05:34 PM
CarolC 14 Aug 08 - 05:36 PM
beardedbruce 14 Aug 08 - 05:37 PM
beardedbruce 14 Aug 08 - 05:38 PM
beardedbruce 14 Aug 08 - 05:42 PM
CarolC 14 Aug 08 - 06:19 PM
Bobert 14 Aug 08 - 06:36 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 14 Aug 08 - 07:16 PM
Peace 14 Aug 08 - 07:18 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 14 Aug 08 - 07:37 PM
Peace 14 Aug 08 - 07:38 PM
Bobert 14 Aug 08 - 07:55 PM
Peace 14 Aug 08 - 08:00 PM
GUEST,lox 14 Aug 08 - 08:05 PM
GUEST,lox 14 Aug 08 - 08:23 PM
pdq 14 Aug 08 - 08:36 PM
CarolC 14 Aug 08 - 09:04 PM
Riginslinger 14 Aug 08 - 09:47 PM
Little Hawk 14 Aug 08 - 09:52 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 14 Aug 08 - 11:56 PM
robomatic 15 Aug 08 - 12:46 AM
GUEST,Ron Davies 15 Aug 08 - 05:17 AM
GUEST,Ron Davies 15 Aug 08 - 05:46 AM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 15 Aug 08 - 05:57 AM
GUEST,lox 15 Aug 08 - 06:13 AM
Bobert 15 Aug 08 - 06:56 AM
pdq 15 Aug 08 - 08:30 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 15 Aug 08 - 08:55 AM
Bobert 15 Aug 08 - 08:56 AM
Peace 15 Aug 08 - 09:22 AM
pdq 15 Aug 08 - 09:33 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 15 Aug 08 - 10:04 AM
CarolC 15 Aug 08 - 11:47 AM
CarolC 15 Aug 08 - 12:05 PM
Goose Gander 15 Aug 08 - 02:01 PM
beardedbruce 15 Aug 08 - 02:52 PM
CarolC 15 Aug 08 - 03:13 PM
Goose Gander 15 Aug 08 - 03:17 PM
CarolC 15 Aug 08 - 03:31 PM
beardedbruce 15 Aug 08 - 03:38 PM
beardedbruce 15 Aug 08 - 03:44 PM
pdq 15 Aug 08 - 03:48 PM
CarolC 15 Aug 08 - 04:04 PM
CarolC 15 Aug 08 - 04:09 PM
beardedbruce 15 Aug 08 - 04:16 PM
beardedbruce 15 Aug 08 - 04:18 PM
GUEST,lox 15 Aug 08 - 04:26 PM
Bobert 15 Aug 08 - 04:42 PM
beardedbruce 15 Aug 08 - 04:46 PM
GUEST,lox 15 Aug 08 - 04:53 PM
CarolC 15 Aug 08 - 04:55 PM
GUEST,lox 15 Aug 08 - 04:59 PM
beardedbruce 15 Aug 08 - 04:59 PM
CarolC 15 Aug 08 - 04:59 PM
Little Hawk 15 Aug 08 - 05:04 PM
pdq 15 Aug 08 - 05:07 PM
GUEST,lox 15 Aug 08 - 05:13 PM
Little Hawk 15 Aug 08 - 05:14 PM
GUEST,lox 15 Aug 08 - 05:21 PM
Little Hawk 15 Aug 08 - 05:27 PM
GUEST,Volgadon 15 Aug 08 - 05:33 PM
GUEST,lox 15 Aug 08 - 05:36 PM
GUEST,lox 15 Aug 08 - 05:46 PM
CarolC 15 Aug 08 - 06:33 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 15 Aug 08 - 06:45 PM
CarolC 15 Aug 08 - 07:04 PM
GUEST,lox 15 Aug 08 - 07:10 PM
CarolC 15 Aug 08 - 07:14 PM
GUEST,lox 15 Aug 08 - 07:15 PM
GUEST,lox 15 Aug 08 - 07:32 PM
CarolC 15 Aug 08 - 07:37 PM
GUEST,lox 15 Aug 08 - 07:49 PM
Peace 15 Aug 08 - 07:50 PM
Bobert 15 Aug 08 - 08:06 PM
pdq 15 Aug 08 - 08:21 PM
Little Hawk 15 Aug 08 - 08:45 PM
Bobert 15 Aug 08 - 08:53 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 15 Aug 08 - 08:57 PM
Little Hawk 15 Aug 08 - 09:03 PM
pdq 15 Aug 08 - 09:21 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 15 Aug 08 - 09:37 PM
pdq 15 Aug 08 - 09:40 PM
CarolC 15 Aug 08 - 09:42 PM
akenaton 15 Aug 08 - 09:42 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 15 Aug 08 - 09:46 PM
Riginslinger 15 Aug 08 - 10:23 PM
Peace 15 Aug 08 - 10:26 PM
Riginslinger 15 Aug 08 - 10:47 PM
Peace 15 Aug 08 - 10:51 PM
Riginslinger 15 Aug 08 - 11:04 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 15 Aug 08 - 11:30 PM
CarolC 15 Aug 08 - 11:43 PM
Peace 15 Aug 08 - 11:53 PM
Little Hawk 16 Aug 08 - 01:08 AM
Riginslinger 16 Aug 08 - 01:09 AM
Peace 16 Aug 08 - 01:15 AM
Little Hawk 16 Aug 08 - 01:29 AM
Peace 16 Aug 08 - 01:38 AM
CarolC 16 Aug 08 - 01:44 AM
Peace 16 Aug 08 - 01:53 AM
Peace 16 Aug 08 - 02:23 AM
Peace 16 Aug 08 - 02:25 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 16 Aug 08 - 06:18 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 16 Aug 08 - 06:24 PM
pdq 16 Aug 08 - 06:38 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 16 Aug 08 - 06:51 PM
CarolC 16 Aug 08 - 07:00 PM
Little Hawk 16 Aug 08 - 07:02 PM
akenaton 17 Aug 08 - 04:35 AM
Riginslinger 17 Aug 08 - 08:31 AM
pdq 17 Aug 08 - 10:17 AM
GUEST,Sawzaw 17 Aug 08 - 10:42 AM
Riginslinger 17 Aug 08 - 10:45 AM
Peace 17 Aug 08 - 12:48 PM
CarolC 17 Aug 08 - 01:00 PM
Little Hawk 17 Aug 08 - 01:51 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 17 Aug 08 - 05:17 PM
pdq 17 Aug 08 - 06:35 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 17 Aug 08 - 06:41 PM
Little Hawk 17 Aug 08 - 07:21 PM
Peace 17 Aug 08 - 07:28 PM
Peace 17 Aug 08 - 07:32 PM
Little Hawk 17 Aug 08 - 07:35 PM
Riginslinger 17 Aug 08 - 07:40 PM
pdq 17 Aug 08 - 08:05 PM
GUEST,Jack The Sailor 17 Aug 08 - 08:09 PM
CarolC 17 Aug 08 - 08:26 PM
pdq 17 Aug 08 - 08:50 PM
CarolC 17 Aug 08 - 09:51 PM
Riginslinger 17 Aug 08 - 09:58 PM
Little Hawk 17 Aug 08 - 11:55 PM
akenaton 18 Aug 08 - 02:51 AM
GUEST,lox 18 Aug 08 - 06:53 AM
Riginslinger 18 Aug 08 - 07:52 AM
folk1e 18 Aug 08 - 07:52 AM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 18 Aug 08 - 09:15 AM
Donuel 18 Aug 08 - 11:03 AM
CarolC 18 Aug 08 - 11:45 AM
Donuel 18 Aug 08 - 12:23 PM
beardedbruce 18 Aug 08 - 12:28 PM
beardedbruce 18 Aug 08 - 12:29 PM
CarolC 18 Aug 08 - 12:34 PM
beardedbruce 18 Aug 08 - 12:47 PM
GUEST,lox 18 Aug 08 - 12:48 PM
GUEST,lox 18 Aug 08 - 12:49 PM
CarolC 18 Aug 08 - 12:51 PM
Paul Burke 18 Aug 08 - 12:52 PM
pdq 18 Aug 08 - 12:53 PM
CarolC 18 Aug 08 - 12:54 PM
beardedbruce 18 Aug 08 - 01:03 PM
beardedbruce 18 Aug 08 - 01:05 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 18 Aug 08 - 01:08 PM
Emma B 18 Aug 08 - 01:12 PM
GUEST,lox 18 Aug 08 - 01:21 PM
CarolC 18 Aug 08 - 01:21 PM
beardedbruce 18 Aug 08 - 01:25 PM
beardedbruce 18 Aug 08 - 01:26 PM
GUEST,lox 18 Aug 08 - 01:30 PM
GUEST,lox 18 Aug 08 - 01:32 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 18 Aug 08 - 01:34 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 18 Aug 08 - 01:37 PM
CarolC 18 Aug 08 - 01:41 PM
CarolC 18 Aug 08 - 01:43 PM
GUEST,lox 18 Aug 08 - 01:45 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 18 Aug 08 - 01:50 PM
Peace 18 Aug 08 - 02:00 PM
Emma B 18 Aug 08 - 02:04 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 18 Aug 08 - 02:26 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 18 Aug 08 - 02:29 PM
CarolC 18 Aug 08 - 02:31 PM
Peace 18 Aug 08 - 02:31 PM
CarolC 18 Aug 08 - 02:33 PM
Little Hawk 18 Aug 08 - 02:35 PM
Emma B 18 Aug 08 - 02:40 PM
Peace 18 Aug 08 - 02:43 PM
beardedbruce 18 Aug 08 - 03:48 PM
beardedbruce 18 Aug 08 - 03:56 PM
beardedbruce 18 Aug 08 - 04:02 PM
beardedbruce 18 Aug 08 - 04:07 PM
CarolC 18 Aug 08 - 05:31 PM
Emma B 18 Aug 08 - 05:39 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 18 Aug 08 - 05:43 PM
Emma B 18 Aug 08 - 05:51 PM
CarolC 18 Aug 08 - 05:52 PM
CarolC 18 Aug 08 - 05:57 PM
pdq 18 Aug 08 - 06:06 PM
CarolC 18 Aug 08 - 06:14 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 18 Aug 08 - 06:18 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Aug 08 - 07:23 PM
CarolC 18 Aug 08 - 09:04 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 18 Aug 08 - 09:12 PM
CarolC 18 Aug 08 - 09:19 PM
CarolC 18 Aug 08 - 09:20 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 18 Aug 08 - 09:29 PM
GUEST,petr 18 Aug 08 - 09:31 PM
Riginslinger 18 Aug 08 - 09:43 PM
robomatic 18 Aug 08 - 10:50 PM
CarolC 19 Aug 08 - 12:14 AM
CarolC 19 Aug 08 - 12:18 AM
GUEST,Baffled 19 Aug 08 - 01:32 AM
CarolC 19 Aug 08 - 01:41 AM
beardedbruce 19 Aug 08 - 02:28 PM
beardedbruce 19 Aug 08 - 02:34 PM
Emma B 19 Aug 08 - 02:36 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 19 Aug 08 - 02:37 PM
CarolC 19 Aug 08 - 02:46 PM
CarolC 19 Aug 08 - 02:48 PM
CarolC 19 Aug 08 - 02:53 PM
Charley Noble 19 Aug 08 - 02:56 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 19 Aug 08 - 03:00 PM
CarolC 19 Aug 08 - 03:21 PM
Emma B 19 Aug 08 - 03:40 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 19 Aug 08 - 04:48 PM
Emma B 19 Aug 08 - 05:10 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 19 Aug 08 - 05:11 PM
CarolC 19 Aug 08 - 09:08 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 19 Aug 08 - 09:21 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 19 Aug 08 - 09:24 PM
Riginslinger 19 Aug 08 - 09:30 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 19 Aug 08 - 09:30 PM
CarolC 19 Aug 08 - 09:42 PM
GUEST,beardedbrucew 19 Aug 08 - 09:50 PM
CarolC 19 Aug 08 - 09:50 PM
GUEST,beardedbrucew 19 Aug 08 - 09:50 PM
CarolC 19 Aug 08 - 09:52 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 19 Aug 08 - 10:00 PM
Ron Davies 19 Aug 08 - 11:03 PM
CarolC 19 Aug 08 - 11:05 PM
CarolC 19 Aug 08 - 11:06 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 19 Aug 08 - 11:11 PM
Paul Burke 20 Aug 08 - 03:34 AM
akenaton 20 Aug 08 - 05:13 AM
GUEST,lox 20 Aug 08 - 06:50 AM
robomatic 20 Aug 08 - 07:29 AM
Ron Davies 20 Aug 08 - 07:32 AM
Ron Davies 20 Aug 08 - 07:36 AM
robomatic 20 Aug 08 - 07:52 AM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 20 Aug 08 - 07:54 AM
Emma B 20 Aug 08 - 12:01 PM
GUEST,petr 20 Aug 08 - 12:07 PM
Peace 20 Aug 08 - 12:33 PM
CarolC 20 Aug 08 - 12:41 PM
beardedbruce 20 Aug 08 - 01:29 PM
CarolC 20 Aug 08 - 01:35 PM
beardedbruce 20 Aug 08 - 01:44 PM
CarolC 20 Aug 08 - 01:49 PM
beardedbruce 20 Aug 08 - 01:53 PM
CarolC 20 Aug 08 - 01:58 PM
beardedbruce 20 Aug 08 - 02:01 PM
beardedbruce 20 Aug 08 - 02:07 PM
beardedbruce 20 Aug 08 - 02:12 PM
beardedbruce 20 Aug 08 - 02:20 PM
Emma B 20 Aug 08 - 02:21 PM
CarolC 20 Aug 08 - 02:21 PM
beardedbruce 20 Aug 08 - 02:25 PM
beardedbruce 20 Aug 08 - 02:27 PM
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CarolC 20 Aug 08 - 02:42 PM
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Subject: BS: War in Georiga
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 10:52 AM

While you folks are sniffing about how bad it is in the US, War is breaking out in Georgia.

http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11909324


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: irishenglish
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 11:04 AM

Some of us Americans are capable of sniffing about how bad it is in the US while keeping an eye on news elsewhere, including an escalating situation in Georgia.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: bankley
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 11:09 AM

I hope Atlanta doesn't get burned again, Miss Scarlet


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 11:12 AM

Obviously Obama's trip to Maui ( to meet with Paris H.?) is a far more significant topic, at least from the news reports.


Is there a Russian General named Shermanov?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: Wesley S
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 11:40 AM

Is there any oil there?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 11:46 AM

One of the main oil pipelines from Azerbaijan runs through Georgia to the Black Sea.

Can't wait to hear how the "usual suspects", aided and abetted by Dennis Kucinich, put this one down to George W. Bush.

Serious? Extremely. Only one outcome that the countries of the region can accept - Russia removes its troops from Georgian soil.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 11:59 AM

Actually, the Ossetians need the Russians there.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: irishenglish
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 12:15 PM

Can't wait to hear how the "usual suspects", aided and abetted by Dennis Kucinich, put this one down to George W. Bush.

That's bull Teribus. But then again, I guess I'm just a stupid American ill informed about the world, and I'm one of those pinko commie types as well, just because I choose to vote and follow policies that are humanity based by and large. Of course, it all makes sense. The usual suspects, Dennis Kucinich and myself all blame George Bush for this despite the fact that Bush probably needs help finding Georgia on the map!

Guess I'm a usual suspect then for actually believing that this is a complex dispute between Georgia and Russia. Guess I'm a usual suspect for hoping this can stop before it gets worse. Another day in the life of a usual suspect.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: jimmyt
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 12:19 PM

Take a deep breath and relax, Irishenglish. I don't think Teribus was singling you out. Also I bet George W can find georgia, just follow I 75 southand right after he crosses the Tennessee border, I will be there to meet and greet!


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 12:35 PM

He has been to both, after all. Oddly enough, Georgia is probably the only country in the world absolutely in love with Bush. I politely turned down an invite from a Georgian to watch 6 hours of recroded newsreel from the visit.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 12:45 PM

I'd put money on the Georgians. I did a gig with some Georgian dancers once, and they jumped up in the air waving swords, and landed back on the floor on the points of their knees. You try it!
People who can do that can do anything.
(Mind you, perhaps Russian dancers do that as well, I don't know).


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: Wesley S
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 12:46 PM

Besides - We usual suspects all know that everything bad that ever happens is the fault of Bill and Hillary Clinton. And we've been covering it up for years......


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 01:05 PM

The Ossetians dances are even more extreme, Greg, I've seen both.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 01:48 PM

It sounds like a typical regional conflict to me...the kind of thing that was very likely to happen here and there following the breakup of the Soviet Union and the separation of many of its formerly outlying border areas into independent states. I think the Russians and the Georgians have enough issues between themselves that they would be fighting right now even if George Bush had sought a career in baseball instead and the USA was a minor power on the level of, say, Ecuador...and had no influence in the area at all. The Americans will, of course, be interested in playing the situation for any advantage they can, but that's normal in great power politics.

On the other hand, maybe Liechtenstein is behind it all. ;-) They are capable of stirring up anything, those people, and they're rampant capitalists too!


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: irishenglish
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 01:58 PM

Damn Liechtensteiners LH! Just remember my take over the world scheme involving St.Pierre and Miquelon awhile back>


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 02:04 PM

They are a constant worry. I think the only reason Bush hasn't spoken of it publicly is that he's so scared of them himself.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 02:18 PM

Irishenglish is right in thinking that this is a complex issue.
Here is some historical background.
The Ossetians are mainly Christians, descendants of the ancient Alans, who once ranged as far as France. Their language is part of the Proto-Iranian group (IIRC). The Georgian language is completely unrelated. Plenty of loanwords in both, because of a long, shared history.
The Alans/Ossetians were frequent allies of the Iberians/Georgians in their struggles against the Roman and Parthian empires, and, later, the Byzantines and Sassanians. They frequently intermarried and the Ossetian nobility was heavily influenced by their Georgian counterparts. This is best seen in the Georgianised surnames.
The Ossetians were the finest craftsmen and blacksmiths in the Caucasus. Ossetian swords and daggers were eagerly sought after, even in Byzantium.   
The Alan kingdom became one of the strongest in that part of the world under King Durgulel the Great. He married off one of his daughters to a Byzantine generral, the other, to the Georgian king. He was strong enough to meddle in international politics, and dictate terms.
After his death, the Georgian rulers and feudal lords attempted to take over the southern part of the Alan kingdom. A situation not unlike the Anglo-Scottish Border developed, with back-and-forth raiding, as well as large-scale campaigns. Douglases and Northumberlands!
Eastern Georgia later fell under Persian rule, but Ossetia manged to keep it's independence, which it fought for tooth-and-nail.
In 1774, Georgia and Ossetia fell under Russian rule, but it wasn't until 1830 that Russia had any real control over them.
Let's skip over to 1917. Georgia became independent and annexed Southern Ossetia. They suppressed Ossetian language and culture, carrying on even under Stalin, who turned a blind eye.

Mind you. I don't think that Russia really is acting with Ossetia's best interests in mind, but rather to show Georgia what they can expect for joining NATO. One can only wonder what lies in store for the Ukraine.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 02:23 PM

The Americans are supporting the Georgians, because they can't abandon them, after convincing them of the benefits of joining NATO.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 02:27 PM

Fascinating stuff, Volgadon. Yes, I've heard of the Alans. They were very fine warriors with formidable cavalry.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 05:23 AM

Only 20 posts?

That must tell us something about somebody somewhere??????


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 05:27 AM

and would somebody please fix the thread title.....in case George can't find it on the map.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 05:43 AM

Give them all a nice hot cup of tea and tell them to go home!


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 10:10 AM

Bush will probably send advisors there. They'll get off the plane in Atlanta and wonder what all of the fuss is about!


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 10:48 AM

LOL!


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 12:38 PM

The lack of interest does seem significant as well as disturbing.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 01:15 PM

I find it interesting that the US supported Georgia's breaking away from Russia (because we believe in freedom and independence, after all), but we don't support South Ossetia's desire to break away from Georgia. I guess some people are more deserving of freedom and independence than others.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 01:17 PM

And before this becomes a debate about US oil interests, oil is not a factor here. The broad picture is that Georgia wants out of the Russian circle of influence. They turned to the USA for their protectors and are joining NATO. Russia can't stomach the idea of a NATO presence on it's southern border. That is a lot closer than Cuba is to the States!
Enter South Ossetia. I've outlined some of the history in a previous post, so suffice it to say that Georgia has been trying to take Southern Ossetia over for centuries. The Ossetians are very independent and don't really want to be Georgian. The situation is a bit similar to Eastern Turkey.
Russia sees Ossetia as not only a good foothold in the Caucasus, but also as an excuse to teach Goergia a lesson about what you get for joining NATO. South Ossetia and Abkhazia both need Russian support to remain independant.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: GUEST,Mike in DC
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 01:50 PM

You can find some background information here
.

Mike


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 06:30 PM

Vive Le Québec Libre


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 06:38 PM

Damned eastern europeans, always causing trouble!


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: bubblyrat
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 06:23 PM

Apparently, there are some gas, oil, or both,pipelines that pass through Georgia, to western Europe, that are the only ones NOT to pass through some Russian territory. As such, they would,naturally, be of incalculable strategic importance to Nato and the Western Allies, including our dear American ( I mean that sincerely ) friends.Under the circumstances, one can readily see how the Russians would gleefully seize on ANY excuse to invade Georgia in order to hold us all to oil & gas ransom.Rest assured, they will do ANYTHING to get control of those pipelines !! The "Cold War " starts again !! ( maybe even a hot one ) . If ever there was a time for STRONG American leadership, it is NOW !!


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 06:54 PM

Well, south Ossetia already had de facto independence from Georgia since it won a war with that country in 1992. It was Georgia that invaded south Ossetia, not Russia. Russia entered the region in response to Georgia's invasion of it, to defend it from the Georgians. The south Ossetians do not want to be a part of Georgia. But the west apparently wants south Ossetia to be a part of Georgia, and the US has trained Georgia's armed forces, no doubt so that it can use them as proxy fighters for the US' quest to own everybody's oil.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 10:54 PM

Georgia, whose troops have been trained by American soldiers, began an offensive to regain control over South Ossetia overnight Friday, launching heavy rocket and artillery fire and air strikes that pounded the provincial capital, Tskhinvali.

In response, Russia, which has granted passports to most South Ossetians, launched overwhelming artillery shelling and air attacks on Georgian troops.


http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/080810/world/georgia_south_ossetia


Georgia heavily bombs a civilian population center, killing a couple of thousand people, wounding many more, and rendering thousands of people homeless (after being trained by the US)... Russia responds by targeting Georgian troops, and the US calls Russia the bad guy in this scenario. Hardly surprising, I suppose. In fact, I'd say it's pretty typical.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: Peace
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 11:12 PM

"While you folks are sniffing about how bad it is in the US, War is breaking out in Georgia."


This life is filled with language.

The time of what you call sniffing is just the time of reflection. When it is put on the line, it is scary.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: Peace
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 11:28 PM

Spetsnaz. It means 'Special Warfare Troops'. They are the equivalent of the Canadian "JTF2", American 'SEALS' or British 'SAS'. The attack on Georgia is disgusting. That's my opinion.


I point out that Canucks would decry that type of attack.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: Peace
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 11:38 PM

I hope.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 11:45 PM

All great powers support independence movements when those independence movements are in line with their larger interests and objectives. They oppose similar independence movements when they are not in line with their larger interests and objectives.

This is true of Russia. It's true of the USA. Neither side is supporting who they are supporting out of altruism, they are doing it out of pragmatism.

For either of them to claim the moral high ground is ironic, to say the least. For the Georgians to claim the moral high ground is equally ironic, if not more so. They attacked South Ossetia first.

As for the Ossetians, I figure they have a right to decide whether or not they wish to be part of Georgia, and they seem to have decided some time ago that they don't want to be part of Georgia.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 11:48 PM

Russia didn't attack Georgia. Georgia attacked a civilian population center in South Ossetia. Russia defended the civilians of South Ossetia from the Georgian military.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 11:49 PM

crossposted


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:34 AM

Still trying to work out how Russia, as an interested party, was appointed the role of "neutral peacekeeper" in the province (that was always "Georgian" under the communists) that it seeks to absorb into Russia? Even to the extent of demonstrating that "neutrality" by handing out "Russian" Passports to the inhabitants. Strikes me as being a clear conflict of interest, but there again whoever could ever put forward the arguement that the UN ever knew what it was doing.

Bet the Ukrainians are feeling a tad nervous, as the spotlight will turn on them once Russia has taken what parts of Georgia it feels it requires to "feel safe". Maybe we will once again Europe will be informed that, "We have no further territorial ambitions".

Odds on increased applications for NATO membership anyone?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:16 AM

Doesn't really matter if Russia is an interested party or not. The South Ossetians gained their independence from Georgia just as Georgia gained it's independence from Russia and the Soviet Union. What the South Ossetians do with Russia is nobody's business except for South Ossetians and the Russians.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:33 AM

Thousands of civilians have fled South Ossetia - many seeking shelter in the Russian province of North Ossetia.

"The Georgians burned all of our homes," said one elderly woman, as she sat on a bench under a tree with three other white-haired survivors of the fighting...

...Tskhinvali residents who survived the Georgian bombardment overnight Friday by hiding in basements and later fled the city estimated that hundreds of civilians had died.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/080810/world/georgia_south_ossetia


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:45 AM

Georgian forces were deliberately targeting civilians...

So she gathered her three girls - Ina, 14, Lina, 12, and Marina, 11 - and called a relative to pick them up in his car. They spent the day in a nearby village, watching the fighting grow closer with friends and family. Finally, she said, Georgian tanks started firing into nearby houses.

Those huddled in the house climbed into two cars and started off along a road through a stretch of woods. As they passed through the forest, they came under fire.


http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/080810/world/south_ossetia_refugees


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 04:26 AM

It is complicated.

Russia is pushing for regime change in Georgia. Georgia is the only country that likes Shrub and he is trying to get them into NATO. It looks like a pissing contest between Bush and Putin to me with Georgia and South Ossetia as the urinals.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 05:38 AM

Anyone see the parallel here?

Sudetenland all over again in the East? Payback for the "Bay of Pigs" incident?

First step toward WW3?

Someone needs to put the lid on this PDQ, even if it does mean giving up their immediate goal. Is one new member in NATO worth the cost?

Don T


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 06:44 AM

You took the words right out of my mouth, Don. It has all the hallmarks. What's the betting that our politicians choose the most stupid course of action imaginable (as they did in Iraq)?

Still it will "all be over by Christmas" (which Christmas, though?). Eventually the newly resurgent Chinese army will be able to march in and salvage anything salvageable from the smouldering (radioactive?) ruins.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Paul Burke
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 08:12 AM

I'm surprised you've got this far in the discussion without mentioning Kosovo. Putin said at the time that the Kosovo independence referendum set a precedent. The obvious outcome is referenda in South Ossetia and Abkhazia, which would almost certainly lead to them becoming Russian- controlled republiclets.

I suspect Saakashvili thought the Americans and Europeans would come running to help him. I can't see any other reason why a country with 4 million people would attack the stated interests of a country with 140 million.

The outcome will probably be his replacement by a Russian- friendly government, which will prove useful to Putin by keeping its hand on the tap on the pipeline. Which could have been avoided if the West hadn't sold the Russians a duff version of the market economy back in 1991, if they hadn't lorded it over them when they were struggling, if they had gone in with a serious reconstruction plan instead of attempting to loot the place, if they had condemned the excesses of Georgian nationalists against the Russian minority, and if they weren't so addicted to oil.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 08:21 AM

Paul has it absolutely right. Putin can easily cite Kosovo as a precedent. It appears fairly obvious that self-determination for South Ossetia would result in a similar status to that of North Ossetia--and now that is very likely to happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: kendall
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 09:49 AM

I was going to mention Kosovo.
Bush was on CNN this morning complaining about the violence and saying he confronted Putin and Medvedev (sp) I'd hate to have his nerve in a tooth! This after he invaded Iraq on trumped up charges! Iraq is 4000 miles from us, Georgia is just across the border from Russia.
January can't come soon enough for me.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 10:05 AM

Self-determination eh? If that was in anyway desireable to the Russians why was there never a United Socialist Soviet Republic of Ossetia, or the other lump of Georgia that the "neutral" Russian peacekeepers have poured troops into?

The USSR set the boundaries of both Georgia and Ukraine. Interesting to see what those countries will look like once all the dust settles. It won't start WW3, but will definitely start "Cold War 2".

The oligarchs that "looted" Russia were the former "elite" of Russia, Putin knows them well, most of them served with him in the KGB.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 11:39 AM

Where do the 2 presidential candidates stand on this issue ??

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:12 PM

"The USSR set the boundaries of both Georgia and Ukraine." ~ Teribus

Well, I wasn't sure until I read that post, but now I would say that Russia should go home and let Georgia make peace with its various ethnic groups. Russia wants to be able to threaten the very important oil pipe line and it is also unhappy at the prospect of Georgia joining NATO. Attacking a NATO member has more consequences. George W. Bush seems to be championing the move for membership. The only leader who is quoted as sayng "Russian troops must leave immediately" seems to be Dick Cheney while most others put a wet finger in the air.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:30 PM

McCain calls for diplomatic effort with Russia

Monday, August 11, 2008 3:42:51 PM
By CHARLES BABINGTON

Republican presidential candidate John McCain on Monday called for a multi-pronged diplomatic effort to force Russia to withdraw from Georgia, saying Moscow's actions could have long-term implications for its relations with the rest of the world.

Speaking to reporters in Pennsylvania, McCain said Russia appears intent on toppling the Georgian government rather than simply restoring the status quo in the pro-Moscow province of South Ossetia, which Georgia is trying to keep from breaking away.

"NATO's North Atlantic Council should convene in emergency session to demand a ceasefire and begin discussions on both the deployment of an Other international peacekeeping force to South Ossetia and the implications for NATO's future relationship with Russia," McCain said. He also urged NATO to reconsider its decision to withhold a "membership action plan" for Georgia, saying it "might have been viewed as a green light by Russia for its attacks on Georgia."

McCain said Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice should go to Europe "to establish a common Euro-Atlantic position aimed at ending the war and supporting the independence of Georgia."

He said the United States "should coordinate with our partners in Germany, France and Britain, to seek an emergency meeting of the G-7 foreign ministers to discuss the current crisis."

"Our united purpose should be to persuade the Russian government to cease its attacks, withdraw its troops and enter into negotiations with Georgia," McCain said. "We must remind Russia's leaders that the benefits they enjoy from being part of the civilized world require their respect for the values, stability and peace of that world."

He declined to take questions from reporters.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:34 PM

'"We must remind Russia's leaders that the benefits they enjoy from being part of the civilized world require their respect for the values, stability and peace of that world."'

Wouldn't hurt for him to sat that to Bush, also.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:38 PM

Thanks BB ... now, now what is Obama saying.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:45 PM

McCain and the US media are using weasel wording to try to frame the issue in a way that will serve their agenda (oil). The status quo in South Ossetia is that it broke away successfully in 1992 and has been operating autonomously ever since. Georgia is the one that is trying to upset the status quo and force South Ossetia to be a part of Georgia again.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:46 PM

I'm not surprised that the Russians are perturbed about Georgia wanting to join NATO.

How would the USA feel if Quebec left Canada, let's say, declared independence and stated its desire to join a re-established Warsaw Pact, allying itself with Russia?

Or what if Mexico did that? What then? What would the USA say about that?

Georgia borders on Russia. Don't forget that. Now put yourself in Russian shoes and imagine their strategic concerns.

They are playing normal great power politics.

The Georgians are playing normal small power politics and doing the standard thing when an enclave (large or small) decides to leave the nation and declare its independence. They're saying "You can't go, and we will happily kill you by the thousands to prevent you from doing so."

That's what the Serbs said to Kosovo, isn't it? That's what a central government usually says to separatists.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:46 PM

Obama vs. McCain on Russia vs. Georgia
Candidates Speak Out on Growing International Crisis
By JOHN HENDREN
Aug. 10, 2008
For Russia and Georgia, the conflict in South Ossetia is now a long-simmering war.

Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., left, and Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz.
(ABC News Photo Illustration)For Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., and Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., it is the first chance for the presidential candidates to demonstrate their response to an international crisis.

McCain has called Russia's Vladimir Putin many things, few of them good. He's called Putin "a totalitarian dictator" and famously said he looked into his eyes and saw three letters "K, G and B," a reference to Putin's former employer, the Soviet spy agency. And when hostilities erupted along the Georgia-Russia border, McCain was characteristically bold and quick to act.

He spoke by phone to Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili and White House National Security Advisor Stephen Hadley, then quickly rearranged his schedule to make his statement on the crisis his first event of the day. And he didn't mince words.

"Russia should immediately and unconditionally cease its military operations and withdraw all forces from sovereign Georgian territory," he said in a morning statement.

Obama also condemned the Russian invasion. But he cast a wider net for advice -- including Hadley, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, and his foreign policy advisors. When he spoke, he was characteristically circumspect.

"I think it is important at this point for all sides to show restraint and to stop this armed conflict," Obama said. The candidates' responses reveal a stark difference in governing style, and both seem carefully calibrated to appeal to American voters.


"John McCain is going to be saying, 'I know what I am talking about foreign policy, and I'm tough enough to lead," said Norman Ornstein, a political analyst with the American Enterprise Institute. "Barack Obama is going to be saying, 'I know what I am talking about in foreign policy, and I'm nuanced enough that I am not going shooting from the hip the way John McCain does."

The bitter battle over who's performed best has already begun. A McCain aide calls Obama "bizarrely in sync with Moscow." Obama's campaign suggested McCain had a conflict of interest because his foreign policy advisor, Randy Scheunemann, had lobbied for Georgia.


Speaking out carries other risks.

"They must be very cautious in being used by a party in this very explosive situation," said Stephen Hess of the Brookings Institution. "The initial McCain statement seemed very overheated, as not one of extreme caution."


Nevertheless, McCain and Obama, alike, seem to be betting their response to the crisis will help them most in November.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:51 PM

Obama's the only one who is calling for both sides to stop. Everyone else seems to think the government of Georgia should be allowed (with the help of the US), to massacre civilians in South Ossetia unhindered. Perhaps it's ethnic cleansing of the South Ossetians that Georgia (and the US) has in mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:02 PM

The primary issue here is not oil, it is power. Russia does not want it's greatest rival right on it's doorstep. Georgia, confident that they have USA backing, decided to reassert it's territorial claims when they thought the world would be busy. Russia seized on the chance to teach Georgia a lesson, namely- that the West can't garauntee their safety. Not only Georgia, but the Ukraine too.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:05 PM

"This weekend's fighting was provoked by Russian-advised South Ossetian separatists; Georgia foolishly responded to the provocation; and Russia was ready to roll in with a large armored force. Does Russia now want to advance further into Georgia? Or does it want to keep Georgia's democracy in a perpetual state of tension? Neither is acceptable, and the West should be formulating policies for either possibility.


In the longer term, the West will have to decide whether to continue its effort to soothe and placate Mr. Putin, as if he were a petulant child who could be bought off with candy and words of praise, or whether to rise to the geopolitical challenge his regime poses. Separate European nations (especially Germany) have thought that they could save themselves by cutting separate deals with Russia for oil and gas. They have tried to avert their eyes as Russia cut oil supplies to show its displeasure with European Union members such as the Czech Republic or Lithuania. Will they now unite to strengthen their position?

Meanwhile, as nations on Russia's periphery such as Georgia and Ukraine have turned west for help in safeguarding their independence, the West has responded ambivalently, offering sympathy but often little else. Russia's theory no doubt is that its aggression in Georgia will scare the West further away. Will that theory, too, harden into ugly truth, or will the West understand that it cannot buy peace by tendering the sovereignty of vulnerable nations? "

from http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/10/AR2008081001840.html


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:06 PM

That sounds dead right to me, Volgadon. As you say, it's about power. It is also about regional spheres of influence.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: kendall
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:12 PM

What ever happened to minding your own business? We haven't tried that lately.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:15 PM

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/10/AR2008081001870.html

Exactly what happened in South Ossetia last week is unclear. Each side will argue its own version. But we know, without doubt, that Georgia was responding to repeated provocative attacks by South Ossetian separatists controlled and funded by Moscow. This is a not a war Georgia wanted; it believed that it was slowly gaining ground in South Ossetia through a strategy of soft power.

Whatever mistakes Tbilisi has made, they cannot justify Russia's actions. Moscow has invaded a neighbor, an illegal act of aggression that violates the U.N. Charter and fundamental principles of cooperation and security in Europe. Beginning a well-planned war (including cyber-warfare) as the Olympics were opening violates the ancient tradition of a truce to conflict during the Games. And Russia's willingness to create a war zone 25 miles from the Black Sea city of Sochi, where it is to host the Winter Games in 2014, hardly demonstrates its commitment to Olympic ideals. In contrast, Moscow's timing suggests that Putin seeks to overthrow Saakashvili well ahead of our elections, and thus avoid beginning relations with the next president on an overtly confrontational note.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:21 PM

Latvia, Lithuania an Estonia border Russia. Aren't they in NATO? Should they be worried?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:28 PM

"Everyone else seems to think the government of Georgia should be allowed (with the help of the US), to massacre civilians in South Ossetia unhindered." ~ CarolC

Bunk

"They're saying 'You can't go, and we will happily kill you by the thousands to prevent you from doing so.' That's what the Serbs said to Kosovo, isn't it?" ~ LH

Bunk rides again.

Kosovo was taken from historic owners the Serbs (Orthodox) by Muslims who had slowly but intentionally moved into Serbian territory as an expansion move, both by ethnic Albanians and Muslims. Pure expansionism.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:50 PM

Carol, I have said for many years, and from the beginning of this thread, that Georgia's actions were wrong, but Russia is using Ossetia as an excuse to further it's own goals, which are quite obvious even to people who have never been in Russia.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:58 PM

The Washington Post is also using weasel wording to promote its hidden agenda. South Ossetia was already separated from Georgia, and was functioning independently from Georgia (since 1992). Georgia started the fighting by bombing and shelling civilian population centers in South Ossetia in order to undo what had already been done more than a decade before.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 02:01 PM

Certainly the Russians have their own agenda. But calling for the Russians to leave South Ossetia while Georgia is still massacring civilians there is quite obviously wrong. And saying that Georgia had a right to separate from Russia, but South Ossetia does not have a right to separate from Georgia is also quite obviously wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 02:09 PM

"Carol, I have said for many years, and from the beginning of this thread, that Georgia's actions were wrong, but Russia is using Ossetia as an excuse to further it's own goals, which are quite obvious even to people who have never been in Russia."

Dead right again, Volgadon. Like I said, it's normal great power (and small power) politics.

Both Georgia and Russia have acted entirely in their own self-interest...just as the USA always acts entirely in its own self-interest. It is facile to endow any of these national participants with a halo of righteousness, because they are all simply pursuing pragmatic ends to what they imagine to be their own benefit. You listening, pdq? ;-)

The Georgians miscalculated, that's all. They underestimated the dangers of a massive Russian response, and they have probably overestimated the extent to which the West will go to help them out.

I would certainly not start a Third World War with Russia over Georgia or South Ossetia, I'll tell you that. To do so would be idiotic, not to mention futile.

Have the Russians ever started a Third World War over the many USA interventions in Latin America? Nope. The one time there was a real danger of that was in the Cuban crisis, but that was because Russia had installed nuclear missiles in Cuba. The West has not installed nuclear missiles in Georgia.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 02:23 PM

"...Moscow's timing suggests that Putin seeks to overthrow Saakashvili well ahead of our elections, and thus avoid beginning relations with the next president on an overtly confrontational note." ~ bb

At least a few people here are thinking clearly.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 02:39 PM

That would be a good strategic move on the part of the Russians. Typical great power politics, as I've said.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 02:40 PM

Carol, I don't think anyone here is saying that Russia should get out of South Ossetia, but they should get out of the rest of Georgia, if the issue truly is about Ossetia. I think the biggest issue here is actualy the UKRAINE. What do these terms tell you:
Donbass. Crimea. Kharkov.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Leadbelly
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 02:42 PM

Thinking of the massacre in South Ossetia for which Saakashvili has to take resposibility it reminds me of another "vili" aka Stalin.
He was a Georgian, too.
Seems to be some kind of tradition to act like this.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 02:44 PM

"they should get out of the rest of Georgia, if the issue truly is about Ossetia."

True enough.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 02:45 PM

On a pedantic note- shvili. A lot of the blame for the current problems in South Ossetia can be laid at his door. Despite the friendship of the nations policy, he turned a blind eye to replacing the latin-based Ossetian alphabet with a Georgian one, to their efforts to replace Ossetian culture and identity with Georgian ones.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 02:52 PM

"Georgia started the fighting by bombing and shelling civilian population centers in South Ossetia in order to undo what had already been done more than a decade before. "


Glad to know that CarolC is a witness to all of this. The reports I had heard were that, IN RESPONSE to the South Ossetian shelling of Georgia, the Georgians responded by the shelling and occupation of South Ossetia, until driven out by the Russians, who are now well into Georgia ( as well as occupying the other enclave).


All tha must be wrong, since it is not what CarolC says is happening.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 02:52 PM

"Kosovo was taken from historic owners the Serbs (Orthodox) by Muslims who had slowly but intentionally moved into Serbian territory as an expansion move, both by ethnic Albanians and Muslims. Pure expansionism."

This is pure, ignorant, prejudiced rubbish and shouldn't go unchallenged! There have been ethnic Albanians in Kosovo for centuries and they have just as much right to be there as the Serbs! If you don't believe me read Noel Malcolm's book, 'A Short History of Kosovo'.

Many ethnic groups in the Balkans have nationalist myths, all of which should be taken with a pinch of salt. A particular Serbian myth is that, at the end of the 17th century, after Kosovo Serbs were defeated by the Ottomans, they were forced to flee to Hungary and Albanians 'flooded' into Kosovo. Dr Malcolm shows this narrative to be largely mythical. And even if it were true, it is no excuse for the vicious practice of 'ethnic cleansing' 300 years later!!


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 02:58 PM

Georgia claims Russians have cut country in half
Monday, August 11, 2008 6:34:56 PM

Georgia's president says Russia's troops have effectively cut the country in half by seizing a strategic city that straddles the country's main east-west highway.

President Mikhail Saakashvili made the statement in a national security council meeting on Monday, about an hour after officials claimed Russian troops had captured Gori, about 60 miles west of the capital Tbilisi.

The news agency Interfax cited a Russian Defense Ministry official as denying the reports of the seizure.

But a top official at the Georgian embassy in Moscow, Givi Shugarov, said Russian troops appeared to be moving toward Tbilisi and he alleged Russia's goal was "complete liquidation" of the Georgian government.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 03:04 PM

This ain't nuthin' more than Putin-head doing in Georgia what Bush has tried to do in Iraq...

Colonialism/inperialism is alive and well these days...

I blame this 99% on Bush setting the example with his war of choice and not engaging Putin and Russia diplomatically on a consistent basis...

This war could have been avoided but now looks as if the next president is going to have another Cold War on his hands and I would hope that whomever it is isn't stupid enough to think it can be won with guns 'casue it can't...

Just more reason for US to get the heck outta Iraq and be a better role model...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Leadbelly
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 03:13 PM

Just found this which was written more than 3(!) years ago.

Source: www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1335682/posts

"The Saakashvili Stalin-like grip

Posted on Freitag, 04. Februar 2005 09:25:20 by Rezo

The Saakashvili Stalin-like grip

The Saakashvili Stalin-like grip of power is getting tighter with each passing day. The independent observers are comparing the personnel shifts in Georgia to sheer repressions and pointing to the already established dictatorship and obvious signs of authoritarian regime in Georgia. Not only the Saakashvili crusade on non-loyal to him Georgian businessmen testifies to the effect. This is also political and judicial harassment of the ex-officials not supportive of the nationalistic ambitions of their new strongman. This is also lack of any tolerance towards the journalists praising the 'revolution of roses' and the presidential command at every corner. Journalists are taking it for serious that freedom of speech is gravely endangered now. Mass media staffers are banned for instance from zones of disputed status in the framework of Georgia-Osetia and Georgia-Abkhazia stand-offs. Their reports on Georgian soldiers' slaughter towards people belonging to ethnical minorities and articles on human rights abuse in Adzharia are usually shelved. TV outlets' coverage of Armenians of Javakhetia being oppressed is absent at all. Generally, it makes the impression that Georgian revolution forced the country on the totalitarian way. The president of Georgia has got the false idea of his own importance. He is thinking of himself as of the almighty Stalin. The people of Georgia paved the way for Saakashvili to occupy the presidential chair a year or so ago. He doesn't care about that people any more. There is only power he is really after. Saakashvili is intoxicated with power. While most Georgians are hardly making both ends meet he is constantly threatening former autonomous regions with militant statements. But the budget of Georgia is too slender both for wars and social payments. Saakashvili is not on the message. He is crazy with the idea of completely subduing the autonomies. He is after power only and not after control. Power unlike control doesn't entail the responsibility. And again Saakashvili is talking of repressions. According to his voiced plans, when subdued Abkhazia will be left without 70% of Abkhazians destined for other places of living to make 'favorable living conditions' for the local Georgians. But Mishiko seems to be unaware of the fact he is only a puppet in the hands of some far more influential figures towering him. If the new Georgian leadership stays under Soros or Miles influence it'll be unable to secure the integrity of Georgia. The repressions in no way can't solve the problem."

As has been said: more than 3 years ago. Everbody could/should have known...


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Leadbelly
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 03:36 PM

Last but not least, that's the new "hero" of George W.,his vice-president and all other people in hate with Russia???

Source: The Guardian,UK. www.guardian co.uk/world/2004/.....

".......In an interview with a Dutch magazine, Sandra Roelofs, the Dutch wife of the new Georgian president and hence the new first lady of Georgia, explained that her husband aspires to follow in the long tradition of strong Georgian leaders "like Stalin and Beria". Saakashvili started his march on Tbilisi last November with a rally in front of the statue of Stalin in his birthplace, Gori......"


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 03:38 PM

I think that Putin is doing this now because he is running out of time to stick it to Bush.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 04:22 PM

Bush couldn't care less, Jack... You see the piture in this morning's paper... He has reverted back to his ol' collage drunk frat boy/cheerleader self... Hey, everyone knows he is in way over head with foriegn policy... Problem is that today he cares alot more about whether or not the kid gets 8 gols medals in swimming than what Putin is orderin' up 3000 miles to the east...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 04:39 PM

In all of the accounts I've read, it was Georgia that started the bombing, and not South Ossetian separatists.

Why would the South Ossetians want to bomb Georgia? They would have nothing to gain by doing so, and everything to lose. They won the civil war with Georgia in 1992, and have been living independently from Georgia ever since. Georgia, on the other hand, which wants to reabsorb South Ossetia (against the will of the South Ossetians), is the only party with a reason for wanting to bomb anyone. The people who are trying to make it look like Russia and South Ossetia started this are lying.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 04:45 PM

And by the way, everyone in power in the US (including the media) is calling for Russia to leave South Ossetia. The reason it looks like they are saying Russia should only get out of Georgia (and not South Ossetia) is because when they say "Georgia", they are also talking about South Ossetia. They aren't recognizing South Ossetia as a separate entity.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peter T.
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 04:46 PM

Actually, I think it is quite easily possible to put the blame squarely on George Bush. He thought he could play the big man, and pump up Georgia against Russia, and now that the bill has come due, he doesn't have the ability to do anything about it. Another diplomatic triumph for the Bush administration.

yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 04:57 PM

(agree)   (Cheney/Bush)


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack The Sailor
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 05:23 PM

Yeah Heric, Peter, I think it is Bush's Hubris coming home to roost.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 05:23 PM

Just heard Bush on TV. He's aware that Georgia is in Europe.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 05:36 PM

Well, that's a start!


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 06:01 PM

Good. Atlanta will breathe easier tonight. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 06:06 PM

Yeah. But it's also in Asia, too.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 06:41 PM

Well, I just watched McCain mispronounced Saakshvili's name three times. So, it's a given. He'll be elected. (Hey, it worked for Bush!)


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: skarpi
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 06:52 PM

well saakasvílí started this war , and attacked the russian
peace soldiers , so he gets what he asked for , and who said any way
that Russia cant be like the Americans ??


well I hope it will end soon

ATB Skarpi


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 08:41 PM

"so he gets what he asked for"

The Georgian people get it, not him. Unfortunately, these bastards that start wars send other people's kids to get killed. They seldom do themselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Paul Burke
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 03:30 AM

Next step- hope there's not a cold winter, because the Russians will almost certainly "accidentally" turn off the gas pipeline to Ukraine and probably Europe.

As I said before, it serves us right for getting dependent on them. We've already had 35% increases in gas prices announced in Britain- it could reach 100% or more as this develops. Thank you to the far- sighted British politicians who used our North Sea oil and gas reserves to crush the unions and fuel a feelgood economic boom.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 04:50 AM

Teribus--

I deduce from your tone that you don't think that self-determination for the South Ossetians would result in their choosing a similar status to that of North Ossetia.

From Google:   "Before the Georgian-Ossetian conflict, roughly 2/3 of the population of South Ossetia was Ossetian.   25%-30% was Georgian." according to the Permament Committee on Geographical Names for British Official Use".   This is before the current hostilities--that is, before any ethnic cleansing as a result of the 2008 crisis.

"By August 2008, more than 70% of the South Ossetian citizens had Russian citizenship.`'--again, Google.

Obviously the South Ossetians want as much autonomy as they can get. They have seen how much Georgia is willing to give them.

It's time for you to provide some actual evidence and logic that the South Ossetians would not now voluntarily choose a similar status to that of North Ossetia, which is officially a part of Russia, rather than the status they now have within Georgia.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 06:14 AM

Looks like a cease fire.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 06:19 AM

Would be nice if Saakashvili could be taken for a walk in the woods before the Russian troops leave.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 07:21 AM

"Permanent"

It looks like Peace is right. Russia has decided to stop miltary operations against Georgia,

And it's clear that Bush is the anti-TR.   Speak loudly and carry a feather. Bush had absolutely no leverage to force Russia to do anything--thanks in large part to stupid overextension of US forces by his senseless invasion of Iraq--rather than trying to finish the job he started in Afghanistan.

That's assuming that Bush would have had the power to do anything in the Georgia-South Ossetia affair--in a corner of the world of overwhelming vital interest to Russia-- even without the Iraq war.

But it would still be good to hear exactly why South Ossetia would not choose a situation close to that of North Ossetia if given the opportunity. And it may still happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 08:05 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_South_Ossetia_(2008)

So, who are we supposed to believe, Georgia or the South Ossetians? I think that BOTH have a reason to lie.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 08:11 AM

I believe the Russians in this instance. The Georgian leader is somewhat a tyrant.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: bankley
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 08:25 AM

...and Mr Cheney,,,

'if you go out in the woods today,
you're sure of a big surprise'

don't go hunting Russian bear with birdshot in your gun...


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 09:05 AM

Washington Post:

The Invasion Continues

The West confronts an unfamiliar sight: a nation bent on conquest.
Tuesday, August 12, 2008; Page A12

IN MOSCOW yesterday, President Dmitry Medvedev gave every indication that Russia was winding up its military operation in Georgia. Meanwhile, his forces continued to advance into that sovereign nation and bomb widely dispersed strategic targets there. The contradiction was consistent with the Russian regime's behavior throughout this crisis: Its words have borne no connection to its actions; its actions are untethered to international norms.

We're pleased to publish on the opposite page today an analysis by former Soviet president Mikhail Gorbachev. He sees the origins of this crisis very differently from how we do, but he agrees that "hostilities must cease as soon as possible." What he doesn't spell out is that such an outcome rests entirely in the hands of Mr. Medvedev -- or of Prime Minister Vladimir Putin, depending on who is really in charge. Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili has accepted a French proffer of an immediate cease-fire. Russia, by contrast, seems determined to depose Georgia's government because it has not been willing to act as vassal and submit to Russia's resurgent imperial ambitions. "Russia has invaded a sovereign neighboring state and threatens a democratic government elected by its people," President Bush said yesterday. "Such an action is unacceptable in the 21st century."

Well said, but what to do about it? Of course we support the intensified diplomacy that is taking place, including France's efforts to negotiate a truce. Nations on every continent should make clear that invasion and conquest are not acceptable modes of behavior and that Russia will face long-term and damaging consequences if it persists in occupying parts of Georgia and even more damaging consequences if it extends its military campaign. NATO's plans for the joint defense of members such as Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland need to be urgently upgraded; the decision to hold the Winter Olympics in a Russian city near the Georgian border should be reexamined; Europe's insouciance about its dependence on Russian oil and gas should be a thing of the past.


But the most urgent need is to see clearly what is taking place. As the crisis deepened, one could hear in Washington the usual attempts to blame the victim, as if Georgia somehow deserved this fate because its elected government had opted for friendly relations with the West. There were also the predictable efforts to score domestic political points.

Fortunately, both candidates for president rose above such temptations, issuing statements that showed they understand the moral calculus and the stakes -- and that the U.S. election will not yield a president any more tolerant of the Kremlin's bullying. Yesterday morning, Sen. John McCain (R) condemned the attacks, outlined a series of policy responses and said, "We must remind Russia's leaders that the benefits they enjoy from being part of the civilized world require their respect for the values, stability and peace of that world." Later in the day, Sen. Barack Obama (D) said, "There is no possible justification for these attacks" and added: "I have consistently called for deepening relations between Georgia and transatlantic institutions, including a Membership Action Plan for NATO, and we must continue to press for that deeper relationship."

That's the right call; but a precondition of a deepening relationship is the survival of an independent Georgia. As we write, Russia has put that survival shockingly in doubt.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 09:17 AM

Russia supports two provinces determined to secede from Georgia. Russia, with aspiring nations within its borders, generally opposes secessionists, as it did when America, which sometimes opposes secession (e.g., 1861-65), improvidently supported Kosovo's secession from Russia's ally Serbia. But Russia's aggression is really about the subordination of Georgia, a democratic, market-oriented U.S. ally. This is the recrudescence of Russia's dominance in what it calls the "near abroad." Ukraine, another nation guilty of being provocatively democratic near Russia, should tremble because there is not much America can do. It is a bystander at the bullying of an ally that might be about to undergo regime change.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/11/AR2008081102156.html


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 09:18 AM

It would have been an easy thing for the Russians to throw the Georgians out of the two disputed enclaves of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Russia is mighty; Georgia is not. Russia is huge; Georgia is tiny. The whole thing is a mismatch from the word go, and the Georgians -- when it is appropriate to do so -- have to be reminded that you do not poke a sleeping bear with a stick. Little nations ought to know their place.

But the bombing, including areas near the Georgian capital of Tbilisi, is not merely disproportionate, it is purposely, studiously, coldly atrocious. It is meant to punish -- not as a deterrent, the Israeli approach to such things, but as a way to show the world that the old Russia is reasserting itself. This is the Russia that looks at Georgia no differently from the way the czars did or, for that matter, the way of that most infamous of Georgians, Stalin himself. This is a Russia that wants a friendly leader on its border. It wants Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili to go.

The Russian invasion of Georgia is a breath of dank air from the rancid past. It reeks of spheres of interest and Metternichian understandings of how the world works and how power is exercised. It is also a refreshing reminder that sprinkling BMW dealerships hither and yon in this or that country does not, in the end, change the culture all that much. Russia, as my grandmother could have told George W. Bush, always fights dirty.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/11/AR2008081102014.html


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 09:23 AM

All that is so--from one side. What we see are articles that are following the Washington line. Are there any articles about Saakashvili's attacks on Russian peacekeepers and the populations of the two 'states' within Georgia?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 09:31 AM

BP shutters Georgian pipeline
BP says it closed the 90,000 barrel a day Baku-Supsa pipeline that flows through the embattled nation.

LONDON (AP) -- BP PLC says it has shut down an oil pipeline that runs through Georgia as a precautionary measure, but says that it's unaware of any Russian bombings on pipelines in the region.

BP says it closed the 90,000-barrel-a-day Baku-Supsa pipeline earlier Tuesday.

Another pipeline operated by the London-based oil company in the former Soviet Republic, the larger Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline, is already out of action after a fire last week on its Turkish stretch.

BP (BP) spokesman Robert Wine says that the Baku-Supsa line had been closed because it runs through central Georgia, where there is greater risk of conflict.

However, he adds that BP has had no reports of damage to pipelines in Georgia.

A third pipeline in Georgia that BP uses to export oil, but does not operate, remains open.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 09:35 AM

A different POV from the LATimes


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 09:47 AM

Georgia: Attacks continuing despite Russia halt claim

Story Highlights
NEW: Georgia says attacks have continued despite Russian halt claim

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev calls halt to fighting, report says

Russian troops had advanced further into Georgia from two breakaway regions

Oil giant BP shuts down two pipelines in the region as a precaution

   
MOSCOW, Russia (CNN) -- Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said Tuesday that he had ordered an end to military operations against Georgia, but Tbilisi reported more attacks after the statement was made.

Medvedev's announcement came minutes before French President Nicolas Sarkozy was to land in Moscow to negotiate terms for a possible cease-fire.

"I have reached a decision to halt the operation to force the Georgian authorities to peace," Medvedev said. "The aggressor has been punished and has incurred very significant losses. Its armed forces are disorganized."

"The statement on the halt of the military action by Russia is the news we had expected. It's good news," Sarkozy said later, according to an Interfax report.

Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin was also involved the talks.

Medvedev's decision would end five days of fighting that began in Georgia's breakaway region of South Ossetia. Watch Georgia's reaction to halt in fighting »

The Georgian government claimed that despite Medvedev's announcement, Russian warplanes struck two villages and military forces bombed an ambulance outside the breakaway province of South Ossetia.

In the Georgian capital of Tbilisi, thousands of citizens engaged in a pro-Georgian rally in front of the parliament building. Watch Georgians rally in Tbilisi »

Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili, who addressed the rally, has accused Russia of provoking the war to justify a full-scale invasion of the former Soviet state. The Russians say Saakashvili attacked first in an attempt to gain control of South Ossetia.

Earlier Tuesday, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said it wanted a demilitarized zone to be created in Georgian territory before a cease-fire could take effect. Watch Lavrov speak about Georgia »

The zone had to be big enough to prevent Georgia's military from again attacking the breakaway province, Lavrov said.

Russian troops who were already in the breakaway province on peacekeeping duty should remain, Lavrov explained, but Georgian troops who were part of that force should not return.

He said it would be best if Saakashvili stepped down as Georgia's leader -- something the president has vowed not to do -- but that Russia was not demanding his resignation.

"We have no plans to throw down any leadership," Lavrov said. "It is not part of our culture. It is not what we do."

However, Lavrov said Moscow did not trust the country's leadership.

He said Saakashvili's "barbaric and brutal action" had undermined trust in Georgia.

Meanwhile, the Russian military advanced further into Georgia overnight, heading toward cities outside South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

From the flashpoint South Ossetia, the Russian military moved south toward the central Georgia city of Gori, Georgia said. Russia said its troops were on the outskirts of the city.
Russian troops were also in Senaki, in western Georgia, having advanced from the breakaway area of Abkhazia, Russian and Georgian officials said.

Georgia's security chief Alexander Lomaia said Tuesday that Russian troops had left Senaki but remained on the outskirts of Zugdidi and around Gori, The Associated Press reported.

Lomaia said Russian aircraft bombed Gori on Tuesday morning, targeting administrative buildings and a street market in the center, AP reported.

A Dutch cameraman was killed on Tuesday morning in an incident in Gori, the Dutch Foreign Ministry confirmed. He was identified as Stan Storimans, of RTL TV. The correspondent who accompanied him was also injured. There were no immediate details about the incident.

An Georgian Interior Ministry official added that Russian bombs hit one of the three pipelines carrying oil to the Black Sea port of Poti. There was no oil in the pipeline at the time, the ministry official said.

UK-based engery giant BP later said it had shut down two oil pipelines in the region as a "precautionary measure" linked to the security situation.

Georgia, a pro-Western ally of the U.S., is intent on asserting its authority over South Ossetia and Abkhazia, both of which have strong Russian-backed separatist movements.

The situation in South Ossetia escalated rapidly from Thursday night, when Georgia said it launched an operation into the region after artillery fire from separatists killed 10 people. It accused Russia of backing the separatists.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 09:49 AM

"A graduate of Columbia and George Washington universities in law and human rights, Saakashvili won election in January 2004 with 96% of the vote. He vowed to fight corruption at home and to re-integrate the pro-Russian regions of Adzharia, Abkhazia and South Ossetia into Georgia."


No wonder he is so evil!


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 09:50 AM

Possibly the field commanders didn't receive the directive to cease operations?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 09:51 AM

Bush was elected by the American people and he invaded Iraq. The fact that someone is elected doesn't mean they can't also be evil.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 09:53 AM

Re his degrees ( subjects and places)

And Bush did not get 96% of the vote running ON attacking Iraq!


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 09:54 AM

CHRONOLOGY-Russia orders end to fighting in Georgia

Aug 12 (Reuters) - Russian President Dmitry Medvedev ordered a halt to military operations in Georgia on Tuesday after five days of fighting.

Georgia entered a conflict with Russia last week after launching an offensive to retake the pro-Russian region of South Ossetia, which broke away from Georgian rule. The issue of South Ossetia's independence has bedevilled Georgia's relations with Russia. Here is a chronology of recent events:

April 3, 2008 - NATO member states at a summit in Bucharest agree that Georgia and Ukraine can one day join the alliance. They stop short of giving them a firm timetable for accession.

April 16 - Russian President Vladimir Putin orders officials to establish semi-official ties with separatist administrations in Georgia's Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Georgia says the order is a violation of international law.

April 20 - Georgia says a Russian Mig-29 fighter jet shot down a Georgian drone flying over Abkhazia. Russia denies involvement. A United Nations report later backs the Georgian version of events.

April 29 - Russia sends extra troops to Abkhazia to counter what it says are Georgian plans for an attack. The next day NATO accuses Moscow of stoking tensions with Georgia.

May 4 - Separatists in Abkhazia say they shot down two Georgian spy drones over the territory they control. Georgia denies any such flights.

May 6 - Georgia says Russia's deployment of extra troops in Abkhazia has brought the prospect of war "very close".

May 30 - Georgia says it stopped flights by unpiloted spy planes over Abkhazia but reserves the right to resume them.

May 31 - Putin, now prime minister, says he backs a Georgian proposal for Abkhazia's autonomy but not full independence.

July 5 - Russian President Dmitry Medvedev urges Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili to refrain from "stoking tensions" in Georgia's breakaway regions.

July 8 - Russian fighter jets fly into Georgian airspace over South Ossetia. Moscow says the mission was intended to "cool hot heads in Tbilisi". Two days later Georgia recalls its ambassador from Moscow in protest.

Aug. 4 - Russia accuses Georgia of using excessive force in South Ossetia after the Russian-backed rebels said Georgian artillery had killed at least six people.

Aug. 7 - Georgian troops attack South Ossetian capital after a truce with rebels breaks down, Russia says Tbilisi cannot be trusted and NATO should reconsider its plans to admit Georgia.

Aug. 8 - Russia sends forces into Georgia to repel the Georgian assault. Medvedev vows to defend Russian "compatriots".

-- Saakashvili says the two countries are at war.

Aug. 11 - Russia issues an ultimatum to Georgian forces near Abkhazia to disarm or be attacked. Georgia rejects the demand. Saakashvili says Russia wants to replace his government and control energy routes through the Caucasus. Russia rejects a Georgian ceasefire proposal.

Aug. 12 - Medvedev issues orders to stop fighting in the five-day war in Georgia. Medvedev is quoted as saying that the aggressor has been punished and sustained very serious losses. Russia says its troops will remain in current positions in Georgia. Georgia says it needs more evidence of a Russian halt to operations and will remain prepared for everything.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 10:02 AM

Seems in agreement- but still, who is at fault? NEITHER account makes that exactly clear.




...........
Beginning late on 1 August, intense fighting began between Georgian troops and paramilitary soldiers of South Ossetia, causing the deaths of six people and injuring twenty-one others. Each side accused the other of commencing the fighting.[27] On 3 August, the Russian government allowed South Ossetians to begin evacuation into Russia, which resulted in twenty bus-loads of refugees leaving the region on the first day.[48]

On 4 August, five battalions of the Russian 58th Army were moved to the vicinity of Roki Tunnel that links South Ossetia with North Ossetia.[49]

Sporadic fighting continued throughout the next several days. On 6 August, Georgia said it had lost an APC and that three Georgian soldiers had been wounded.[50] Four people were killed that night and Georgia resumed shelling at daybreak. Residents once again began evacuating areas of South Ossetia and Georgia moved tanks, artillery, and troops to the border.[51] The Georgian Interior Ministry reported that as many as ten Georgian soldiers had died in the clashes throughout 7 August.[52][53]

Saakashvili who had earlier alleged that a sniper warfare was taking taking place [54] later ordered a unilateral ceasefire. Saakashvili called for talks "in any format", reaffirmed the long-standing offer of full autonomy for South Ossetia, proposed that Russia should guarantee that solution, offered a general amnesty, and pleaded for international intercession to stop the hostilities.[26] Georgia reiterated that it was prepared to engage in direct talks with the de facto government of South Ossetia without any preconditions.

During the night and early morning, Georgian artillery was reported to have shelled the South Ossetian villages of Avnevi, Eredvi, Nuli and others.[56] Georgian news reported that Georgian-populated villages of South-Ossetia were first hit, however this contradicts the reports of Information Telegraph Agency of Russia. These reports also stated that the police station in Kurta, seat of the Sanakoyev administration, was hit by artillery fire. Georgia reported that civilians had begun fleeing these villages.[26] Georgian shelling continued, varying in intensity through the night.

Georgia began a military offensive into South Ossetia commanded by Mamuka Kurashvili, which they said was a response the above-mentioned alleged attacks against Georgian villages. However, South Ossetia denied attacking the villages. Kurashvili stated that the purpose of the operation was to restore constitutional order in the region.[57] This caused an increased number of refugees to cross into Russia.[57][58] Interfax quoted South Ossetian leader Eduard Kokoity as saying his forces were confronting Georgians in the outskirts of Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia; he noted that fierce fighting was under way.[citation needed]

At 00:53 on 8 August (local time, 20:53 7 August UTC), Georgian forces began shelling the city, which allegedly included the route along which refugees were being moved.[59] As the day progressed, Russian media reported that at least fifteen civilians had been killed in Tskhinvali.[52]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_South_Ossetia_(2008)


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 10:34 AM

I'm with you on that, Bruce.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 12:26 PM

"Nations on every continent should make clear that invasion and conquest are not acceptable modes of behavior and that Russia will face long-term and damaging consequences if it persists in occupying parts of Georgia and even more damaging consequences if it extends its military campaign."

Yes they should. Now apply that to the USA's invasions of Afghanistan and most particularly Iraq.

My, how self-righteous yesterday's great power aggressor in Washington is waxing over today's great power aggressor in Moscow! ;-) How droll all this rhetoric is.

And here's another piece of very droll rhetoric, intended to create largely false impressions in the mind of the American reader:

"Russia's aggression is really about the subordination of Georgia, a democratic, market-oriented U.S. ally"

The first part is right, Russia is trying to subordinate Georgia...just like the USA has tried to subordinate Panama, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc...

However, the second part is nuanced bullshit intended to deceive, and to invoke old images of Soviet Russia and the Cold War. The use of the words "democratic" and "market-oriented" is disingenuous and laughable. Russia has itself been market-oriented ever since the fall of the Soviet Union, for heaven's sake! Russia has also been hold western-style multi-party elections ever since the fall of the Soviet Union....so why this disingenuous attempt to pretend that Georgia is any more market-oriented or democratic than Russia?

Well, to sway the mind of American readers, that's why.

I suspect that both the Russian and Georgian governments are far less inclined toward true democracy than their outer show of national elections would indicate, but to cast Georgia as supposedly "democratic" (therefore "good") and Russia as supposedly not (therefore "evil") is just rhetoric intended to deceive domestic American consumption...and ditto for the nonsense about "market-oriented" distinctions.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 12:46 PM

Make no mistake Russia is run by Putin (under a changed office but still boss #1)! He is a cold KGB prick and he rules with an iron fist. He was "democratically elected" as well, as was Hitler at one time,so democracy has little to do with the situation. Georgia rattled Russia's cage and that probably was a stupid thing to do. Now Putin uses that as an excuse to bare his teeth and bite. He is setting an example for all his neighbours to heed. Georgia was sucked in and I hope that the bloodshed will soon end!


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 01:05 PM

NATO has 10 members who were once oppressed regions under Russian control:

Czech Republic
Hungary
Poland

(29 March 2004):
Bulgaria:
Estonia
Latvia
Lithuania
Romania
Slovakia
Slovenia

Note: 7 have been brought in since George W. Bush became president. He strongly supports Georgia's entry as well. Putin doesn't like NATO, Bush, the president of Georgia or anyone else who stands up to the Russian bear.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 01:08 PM

For sure, Russia is really run by Putin. ;-) No doubt about it. The ironical thing, though, is that a large majority of the Russian population likes it that way, so even if they had a totally real democracy right now, they would still elect Putin if he ran for office again. So how about that? Watcha gonna do?

Putin is a highly effective leader, he's no fool, and he's the FIRST actually effective leader Russia has had since the breakup of the Soviet Union. Accordingly he's very popular.

So he was KGB? So what? People who have been CIA amount to the same thing in my opinion, but having been in the CIA does not preclude American politicians from being respected and from serving in other areas of government, does it? Quite the contrary. Your secret service people are regarded as heros and protectors of the country. How ironical! They've caused the deaths of untold numbers of people all over the world with their undercover activities, their coups, and their assassinations of foreign leaders.

I'm not impressed one bit by this hypocritical double standard in assessing the character of Russian politicians and secret agents versus American politicians and secret agents. Both of those great powers are totally self-interested, they are both utterly ruthless, they are both military aggressors, they are both imperialists, and they both invade and subjugate small nations whenever they have a whim and an excuse to do so.

There is little to choose between them and no reason for moral grandstanding on the part of either one of them.

The Georgians have no reason for moral grandstanding either, because their government brought this mess down on itself through its own irresponsible behaviour.

You say they were sucked in? Maybe so...but no more than Saddam Hussein was sucked in when he attacked Kuwait back in '91. (the American ambassador to Iraq assured him before the invasion of Kuwait that the USA had no interest or reason to take sides in any Arab vs Arab conflicts...thus sucking him in...and I have a strong suspicion that that was a deliberate ploy by the USA, and a clever one too).


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Leadbelly
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 01:13 PM

"Georgia rattled Russia's cage and that probably was a stupid thing to do".

STUPID! Nice little word,Sandy. Children might be stupid. Georgias president acted as a criminal and-make no mistake-triggered all of this trouble. That's a fact.

I might be wrong, but I think you are of american origin. And these people should be quite quiet because of Iran. The rest of the world don't need your knowledge about Russia. Clean at your own door.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 01:13 PM

LH,

a. IF the US is wrong for its actions in Iraq and Afghanistan, then Russia is wrong re Georgia.

b. If Russia is right re Georgia, then the US is right re Iraq et al.



OK? Pick one.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 01:17 PM

"Putin doesn't like NATO, Bush, the president of Georgia or anyone else who stands up to the Russian bear."

Naturally. You would feel exactly the same way if you were the leader of Russia, pdq.

You have to stop seeing certain other people (like the Russians) as cardboard stereotypes and realize that just like you or anyone else they:

1. are proud of their country
2. are patriots
3. believe in their country
4. and will defend its interests whenever and wherever they can

Putin is doing exactly what most of his own people would want him to do. If you were a Russian, you'd probably love him. ;-) You'd be cheering his "get tough" stand in regards to the Georgians, because that's how you normally think regarding foreign policy when the shoe is on the other foot and it's American interests that are involved.

Look in the mirror, man. See your reflection. They are just like you. They defend their own interests whenever and wherever they can....and they are not "evil". They're just human.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 01:25 PM

Well said.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Leadbelly
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 01:29 PM

Sorry, but Iraq was meant. Obviously, everbody knows apart from me.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 01:30 PM

"a. IF the US is wrong for its actions in Iraq and Afghanistan, then Russia is wrong re Georgia.

b. If Russia is right re Georgia, then the US is right re Iraq et al."


Heh! You seem to somehow be missing my point, BB. I don't know how....I thought I made it quite clear.

I have already stated that the Russians have a right to defend people in South Ossetia, but NOT to invade the rest of Georgia. My position is the same on Iraq. The USA had a right to eject Iraqi forces from Kuwait in '91, but they did NOT have a right to continue persecuting the nation of Iraq for years after that was accomplished and they did not have a right to launch an invasion of Iraq in 2003...nor any real excuse to either.

They likewise did not, in my opinion, have a right to invade Afghanistan. 911 was not an attack by one nation on another. It was a criminal act by a secret group of conspirators, not an attack by the armed forces of Afghanistan or any other nation. It should have been treated as an international criminal investigation procedure, not turned into an excuse for a war.

Now, Russia has had a totally valid excuse to get involved in defending Ossetia, just as the USA had a totally valid excuse to come to the aid of Kuwait in '91. So far, so good. They are using that valid excuse to take further advantage when they start invading other parts of Georgia. Now THAT I do not support.

*****

What I am trying to convey to pdq is simply this: If he would drop the stereotype of "evil Russians" out of his head for a change and start thinking of them the way he thinks of his own nation...as normal human beings with their own concerns...he would see that they are acting as a nation in their own self-interest just the way the USA normally acts.

That doesn't make everything they do morally right, and I'm not saying it does. But drop the bullshit propaganda, for God's sake, stop dividing the world up into "the guys in the white hats and the guys in the black hats", and face reality for a change.

This isn't some huge confrontation between "good and evil", with us in the West being "good" and the Russians being "evil". This is normal pragmatic power politics in the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 01:52 PM

So, what is wrong for me wanting my country to act in its own self interest?


At present, Russia has gone beyond its mandate in Ossetia. Thus, presently, Russia is wrong ( both from a moral sense and from the viewpoint of the self-interest of the country I am a citizen of).


If we did everything based on the self-interste of the MOST people, we would be backing China at all times. And India is 20 times ( at least) more important than Canada...


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Leadbelly
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 02:00 PM

Today, german defense minister Jung said, despite of this conflict he is seeing perspectives for Georgia to join the Nato.
"Bundesverteidigungsminister Franz Josef Jung (CDU) sieht trotz des Konflikts Perspektiven für einen NATO-Beitritt Georgiens."

That's unbelievable! The man who caused these troubles is proposed to get a reward.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 02:03 PM

Both sides have traded accusations of genocide.

Russia has accused Georgia of killing more than 2,000 people, mostly civilians, in the separatist province of South Ossetia. The claim couldn't be independently confirmed, but witnesses who fled the area over the weekend said hundreds had died.

Many Georgians also have been killed in the fighting and on Tuesday, the Georgian security council said it filed a lawsuit in the International Court of Justice for alleged ethnic cleansing. The overall death toll was expected to rise because large areas of Georgia were still too dangerous for journalists to enter and see the true scope of the damage.

"It feels like an annexed country," said Lasha Margiana, the local administrator in one of the villages in the Kodori Gorge, where fleeing Georgians said the entire population had abandoned their homes.

http://www.mail.com/Article.aspx?articlepath=APNews\Top-Headlines\20080812\Georgia-Russia.xml&cat=topheadlines&subcat=&pageid=1


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 02:06 PM

...this is a fairly neutral satement from "minorityrights.org/":

"...North Ossetia sent aid to its ethnic kin in South Ossetia to support their struggle with Georgia. There have also been calls for the unification of the two regions, although mainly from South Ossetia. North Ossetian leaders periodically make public statements in favour of the union of North Ossetia with South Ossetia, formally part of Georgia but de facto enjoying a kind of quasi-independence.

 In 1998 Aleksandr Dzasokhov, a former Communist official, became president of North Ossetia; he was re-elected in 2002. Dzasokhov's presidency was associated with the entrenchment of clan politics and corruption, one of the factors contributing to the rise of a rebel movement with ties to the Chechen resistance. Rebels carried out bombing attacks on Russian border guards, passenger trains and military targets in 2002-4.

The authority of the North Ossetian leadership was rocked by the Beslan massacre in September 2004, when a hostage-taking operation mounted by Chechen militants resulted in the deaths of over 300 people, most of them children. Residents of Beslan and regional opposition parties mounted continuous protests against Dzasokhov's leadership after the massacre. He announced his resignation on 31 May 2005. According to some analysts, Dzasokhov had also lost credibility with the Kremlin due to the prominence of corruption and clan politics in North Ossetia. Dzasokhov was replaced by Taimuraz Mamsurov.

Despite its reputation as the most loyal territory to Moscow in the North Caucasus, North Ossetia was also affected by wider instability in the region in 2005-6, suffering a number of attacks that some observers defined as an insurgency. According to reports leader of the Chechen resistance Abdul-Khalim Sadullaev designated North Ossetia a separate 'front' in the struggle against Moscow and appointed an Ossetian as commander of operations in the republic. North Ossetia was subsequently struck by a number of attacks, including an attack on an electricity substation in June 2005, an attempt to blow up gas pipelines supplying Georgia in September, an ambush of transport carrying officials from the Chechen Prosecutor's Office and an attack on Russian Interior Ministry troops in October. In February 2006 three home-made bombs went off in casinos and gambling clubs in the republican capital Vladikavkaz, killing two and wounding 25."


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 02:06 PM

In villages around the South Ossetian provincial capital, separatist fighters reportedly were setting fire to Georgian houses and searching for hidden Georgian fighters.

An AP photographer in the village of Ruisi near South Ossetia saw fresh damage from a Russian air raid that locals said came just 30 minutes before Medvedev's televised statement.

Residents said three villagers were killed and another five wounded when a Russian warplane raided the village. One slain victim, 77-year old Amiran Vardzelashvili, was struck by a fragment in the heart while was working in a field.

The Georgian government said another nearby village, Sakorinto, also was bombed after Medvedev announcing a halt to fighting, as was an ambulance in the Black Sea province of Adzharia.

The U.N. and NATO called meetings Tuesday to deal with the conflict, while Poland's president and the leaders of four former Soviet republics flew to Georgia for a meeting of solidarity with Saakashvili.

"The Russian state has once again shown its face, its true face," said Poland's Lech Kaczynski, who was being joined by counterparts from Lithuania, Estonia, Ukraine and Latvia.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 02:32 PM

I googled part of that copy/paste, and this is all that came up...

In villages around the South Ossetian provincial capital, separatist fighters reportedly were setting fire to Georgian houses and searching for hidden Georgian fighters


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 02:37 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080812/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_russia

Ethnic clensing- of Georgians...


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 02:40 PM

"And India is 20 times ( at least) more important than Canada..."

Oh!!! I am deeply offended that you would say that, BB. Are you aware, sir, that Canada has the world's largest reserves of untamed beaver? Are you??? I think that makes us just as important as India, if not more so. ;-) Plus, we are way ahead of them in maple syrup.

No, I have no objection to you having your own country's self-interest in mind. That's natural.

I do think that the Russians have exceeded their mandate in regards to Georgia, yes. They will probably go ahead and do whatever they think they can get away with now, and whatever they think will work out best for them. That's what great powers do. (and sometimes they miscalculate badly in that regard too)


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 02:43 PM

...and from Wiki...remember that the town of Beslan where the school massacre occurred was in North Ossetia:

"Riyadus Salihiin, later known as Islamic Brigade of Shaheeds, was the name of a shahid ('martyr') brigade of Chechen suicide attackers founded in 2002. Its amir (leader) was the Chechen commander Shamil Basayev, who died in July 2006.

It is claimed that Riyadus Salihiin was responsible for the 2002 Grozny truck bombing which killed 83 people and blew up the Chechen republic's government headquarters in the Grozny as well as the hostake-taking in a school in Beslan in 2004 which resulted in at least 386 casualties."

...another article:

"...It was also claimed that the SNO in Beslan was used by Ossetian militia as an internment camp for Ingush civilians during the 1992 Ossetian-Ingush conflict, and it was chosen as a target because of this connection. According to media reports, SNO was one of several buildings in which North Ossetians had held Ingush citizens, many of them women and children; the hostages sat on the gymnasium floor, deprived of food and water, just as the Ossetians would do in the 2004 siege, and several male hostages were hauled and executed outside. Beslan, like the nearby Mozdok, was also the site of an airfield used by the Russian military aviation for its operation in Chechnya since 1994.

The initial attack took place on September 1, the traditional start of the Russian school year, referred to as 'First September' or 'Day of Knowledge'. On this day, the children, accompanied by their parents and other relatives, attend ceremonies hosted by their school. Because of the pupils and family members attending the Day of Knowledge festivities, the number of people in the schools was considerably higher than usual for a normal school day." {small part of article}


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 02:47 PM

"I do think that the Russians have exceeded their mandate in regards to Georgia, yes. They will probably go ahead and do whatever they think they can get away with now, and whatever they think will work out best for them. That's what great powers do. (and sometimes they miscalculate badly in that regard too) "


Agreed.


"Are you aware, sir, that Canada has the world's largest reserves of untamed beaver? Are you??? I think that makes us just as important as India, if not more so. ;-)"


Yes, I was aware of that- but untamed is the key word.


"Plus, we are way ahead of them in maple syrup."

But they have better spices and teas- so I stand by my assessment.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 03:07 PM

"Carol, I have said for many years, and from the beginning of this thread, that Georgia's actions were wrong, but Russia is using Ossetia as an excuse to further it's own goals, which are quite obvious even to people who have never been in Russia."

True. I can't recall the Russians being greatly interested in allowing Chechnya to secede. Seems to me they bombed the shit out of the place.

Lots of pot 'n kettle going on in that part of the world, and it's STILL all about control of oil, gas, etc. etc. etc.

Don T


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 03:10 PM

I have nothing but criticism for Russia's handling of Chechnya. What Russia has been doing with Chechnya is precisely the same thing that Georgia is trying to do with South Ossetia. Both are wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 03:14 PM

History of Georgia

Since ancient times Georgia has been populated by the ancestors of Kartvelian tribes. They established agricultural traditions: sowed wheat, had highly developed viticulture of endemic species of grapes and developed cattle breeding economy.

In the XII-VIII centuries B.C. in south-west part of historic Georgia (south-east of the Black Sea), existed Diaokh kingdom (later known as Tao, nowadays in Turkey). Kolkhic Kingdom was located on the Eastern coast of the Black Sea since the VI century BC (from Apsarosi to old Psou). Since the end of the IV century and the beginning of III century in Eastern Georgia there formed Kartli's Kingdom, with the capital Mtskheta; the first King of Kartli was Parnavaz. The geographical location of Georgia became the reason of cooperation with different countries and at the same time, chellenged the strong interest of the conquerors, as well. From the ancient times Iran, Rome, Bizanty, Arabic States, Turk-Selchucs, Mongols, Osmals, Russians were trying to strengthen their influence, that caused unfavoirable results for the country, destroyed its unity and turned Georgia into the territory for permanent military operation.

Heathen time left grand ruins of palaces, temples, fortresses and towns, (Uplistsikhe, Armazi, Urbnisi, Vani etc,.). the unique heritage of art, gold-smiting, ceramic works, mosaic paintings, etc.

In the first century A.D.. Georgia was misssioned by first Christians. The Christianity was declared as the state religion in the beginning of the IV century (337) while the ruling of King Mirian, as a result of saint Nino Kabadokieli preaching.

History of Georgian always has always been characterised by the tendency of unification. The Georgian satelites were uniting, separating, and then distributing between the conquerors. Untill the Parnavazian time the ruling period of Vakhtang Gorgasali (the new epoch) was also very important. During this period, while fighting against Iran conquerors, Georgian Church gained the Autokephalia At the same period were built: the stone building of Svetitskhoveli cathedral (the first building of Svetitskhoveli was built during the ruling of king Mirian), the Castle-town Ujarma, Artanuji, Cheremi, etc.

Since the ruling of Arabians (at the end of VII-IX century), unity of Georgia was broke up into several small separate kingdoms: Abkhaz Kingdom (capital Kutaisi) in West Georgia, Kakheti (capital Tianeti) and Hereti (capital Shaki) Kingdoms in East Georgia and South-west Georgian Kingdom (Tao-Klarjeti, capital Artanuji) under the leadership of Bagrationi Dynasty.

Despite of such difficult political situations Georgian culture was gently developing. Were built such brilliant simples of Georgian architecture, as: Bolnisi Sioni(V c.). Mtskheta Jvari (VI c.), Oshki, Bana and other great temples, were translated theological literature and were written Georgian Agiographical stories.

In the 970s Bagrat Bagrationi became the King of the country (975-1014) and by uniting separate Georgian kingdoms, was formed State of Georgia, which later become United Georgian Feudal Monarchy. As the Great United State Georgia existed until the XV century. Despite the hard battles with Turk-Selchuks (1070s and the, beginning of the XII century) 100 year ruling of Mongols (XIII - XIV centuries) The Country was developing . In the XII century Georgia became the strongest Christian State in the Near East, which was laid from Nicopsia (nowadays Tuapse) to Darubandi.

The most powerful Georgia was during the King David IV - Agmashenebeli (1089-1125) and the Queen Tamar (1184-1213). It was the time of strengthening and developing Georgian politics, culture and economy. In that period was written history of whole Georgia ('Kartlis Tskhovreba') and various philosophic tractates, was created the legal basis for jurisdiction, were built Alaverdi, Bagrati, Bana great temples, Gelati monastery complex, Vardzia Cave Town, etc.

The churches and monasteries at the same time were used as cultural and educational centers, where training of young pupils, translation of religious-philosophic literature and origin ones took place. The most popular and well-known Georgian poem Shota Rustaveli's 'Vepkhistkaosani' The Knight in the Tigers Skeen was created.

Since the XVI century Georgia was separated into small kingdoms and surrounded by Muslim countries Kingdom was fighting to save its religion and to survive.

After the Russian Empire appeared at the Eastern political arena, the belief for survival for Georgians was connected with Orthodox Christian Russia. Since the 2nd half of the XVII century the King of Kartl-Kakheti Erekle the II (1745-1798) and the King of Imereti Solomon (1754-1784) were fighting against Persia and Otoman Empire. In 1801 Russian Empire violated the 'Georgievsk Treaty.' They occupied Eastern Georgia and abrogated the Kartl- Kakheti kingdom. In 1803 Russians made anschluss of Imereti and other West Georgian principalities were occupied and Georgia's whole territory and divided as a Tbilisi and Kutaisi Guberny, the constitutive parts of Empire.

In 1864, there was Abolished selfdom in Georgia, which supported to develop capitalism in the country. In these difficult conditions the cultural activities were continuing. There were written historical and philosophic productions, were provided scientific observations, were existing publish-houses, theatres, libraries, etc. Leading Georgian intellectuals was fighting to improve national language and culture.

After the 1917 Revolution, Transcaucasia was separated from Russian Empire. In 26 May of 1918 the Independence of Georgia was declared. In 1920 was sign the agreement between Georgian Republic and Soviet Russia about non-aggression pact. In the 25-th of February of 1921 the 11-th Red Army abolished the agreement between Russia and Georgia and occupied country.

In 1991 After abolishing Soviet Putchi and collapse of the Soviet Union, Georgia gained back its independence (officially declared in 26 May of 1991)."


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 03:33 PM

Georgia conflict
Updated 1h 3m ago
By Jeffrey Stinson, USA TODAY

LONDON — In crushing Georgia, Russia has obtained control over new territory, weakened a neighbor that had closely aligned itself with the United States and sent a message to other neighboring nations that it's a major force to be reckoned with, analysts said.
"This very much shows that Russia calls the shots in the region," said James Nixey, who heads the Russia and Eurasia program for the London foreign policy think tank Chatham House. "It shows that when Russia wants to throw its weight around, it can."

Russian forces have full control of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, another breakaway province. Both have populations that have acted independently from Georgia and had aligned themselves with Moscow for the last 16 years.

Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili said as much Tuesday, telling thousands of Georgians in an afternoon speech downtown in the capital Tblisi that his government will declare the two regions occupied Russian territory.

In addition, he said, Georgia will declare the Russians as peacekeepers there to prevent any further conflict


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 03:49 PM

...ah, a normal day at Mudcat:


beardedbruce lays out the facts

Carol says "nay!"

Liberal Hawk goes "squawk!, squawk!, squawk!"

in his nihilistic way

lookey there now


(appologies to Burl Ives)


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 03:49 PM

Nice to see BB quoting Chatham House.

He wasn't so keen on them when they gave their assesment of the Iraq War!!

Bruce is VERY selective with his quotes....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 03:52 PM

1. My "Facts" are from sources that I cannot verify ( from both sides- someone is lying, but I do not know who)

2. CarolC and I have and do agree on some topics.

3. LH has given me permission!

"No, I have no objection to you having your own country's self-interest in mind. That's natural."


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 04:11 PM

"But the most urgent need is to see clearly what is taking place. As the crisis deepened, one could hear in Washington the usual attempts to blame the victim, as if Georgia somehow deserved this fate because its elected government had opted for friendly relations with the West. There were also the predictable efforts to score domestic political points.

Fortunately, both candidates for president rose above such temptations, issuing statements that showed they understand the moral calculus and the stakes -- and that the U.S. election will not yield a president any more tolerant of the Kremlin's bullying. Yesterday morning, Sen. John McCain (R) condemned the attacks, outlined a series of policy responses and said, "We must remind Russia's leaders that the benefits they enjoy from being part of the civilized world require their respect for the values, stability and peace of that world." Later in the day, Sen. Barack Obama (D) said, "There is no possible justification for these attacks" and added: "I have consistently called for deepening relations between Georgia and transatlantic institutions, including a Membership Action Plan for NATO, and we must continue to press for that deeper relationship." "

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/11/AR2008081102144.html


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 04:11 PM

The balance of power has shifted and will continue to shift.
You Conservatives had better take note.
The world you want to live in is disintegrating....get used to it ...in fact enjoy it while you can, as the next move, ten fifteen years down the line will be piracy of energy and resources.

Your "democracies" will be swept away, there will be nothing but blind brutal power. The powerful will take from the weak.....Unless we all start to think.......and I don't mean...... think Obama can save America or the West.....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 04:45 PM

The thing I like about you, Bearded Bruce, is that you have a good sense of humour* (*Canadian spelling) and an ability to meet someone else halfway and find some common ground. That does a lot to bring some reasonableness into a discussion.

pdq - I have no problem with BB's facts...nor Carol's. They do such a good job providing those that they don't need any additional help from me. ;-) So I don't spend much time on the "cut and paste" routine, because it's already been well taken care of. What I am doing instead is attempting (as usual) to get various people here to be flexible enough to think outside their own narrow political/cultural box for a change. If they did, then they would not be so easily fooled by crass emotive propaganda such as is usually spewed by their political leaders and their media, who couldn't care less about "the facts"...but only about whipping up an emotional frenzy of some kind in which "the other side" (whoever that might be) is made to look evil.

When the Russians do the same kind of things you (Americans) do, you think it's wrong, but you don't think it's wrong when you do it. I find that funny. I think you should become more self-aware.

Do like in the Bible, pdq....check out the beam in your own national eye.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 04:50 PM

We know that Georgia has been lying because they reported that Russia had bombed oil pipelines, but independent observers have said that no pipelines have been bombed.

So I guess I'm the one who is presenting facts with which others are disagreeing.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 04:55 PM

It wouldn't be all that surprising if both sides were lying (either directly or by omission). That's what usually happens.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 04:58 PM

"Georgia has been lying because they reported that Russia had bombed oil pipelines"

And where did you get that tidbit? I've been following this story and that is news tome. You probably got it from the same people who say "Bush blamed the 9/11 attacks on Iraq and that is why we went to war"

In plain words, both statements are bunk. Certainly the disinformation "quote" of Bush is bunk. Please support your claim about the Georgian statement.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 05:02 PM

Oh, this oughta be good... ;-) Carol never says anything she can't back up, pdq. Not in my experience.

What makes you think that Georgian politicians are so pure that they wouldn't stoop to lying and misleading? They're like other politicians. They do things like that.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 05:05 PM

Georgia hosts an important pipeline carrying oil from the Caspian to the West and the fighting has unsettled oil markets, though the pipeline itself has not been touched by the conflict.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080812/ts_nm/georgia_ossetia_dc_93

(Sniping is easy. Finding stuff out takes effort.)


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 05:11 PM

1. CarolC will not answer the question. I have asked her several including "did the US and coalition forces have a UN mandate to evict Saddam Hussein's military from Kuwait in 1991or did we not?" She said she had no opinion.

2. Please do not tell other people what they said or guess at what they think. Read their posts and attempt a bit of intellectual honesty.

3. Lying and bombing people's homes are no offences of equal weight.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: bobad
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 05:14 PM

Russia did apparently bomb a pipeline in southern Georgia but there was no damage. Source


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 05:27 PM

...from CarolC's link:

"Georgia hosts an important pipeline carrying oil from the Caspian to the West and the fighting has unsettled oil markets, though the pipeline itself has not been touched by the conflict."

It seems to be intact from all sources. The problem is your disinformation misquote claiming that it was bombed. Saakashvili said no such thing. Please find something to support your clkaim the Saakashvili or a person in his government said what you claim.

"Georgia said several times..."

Who? Where? When? With what governmental authority? I suspect a journalist with an axe to grind. Perhaps the Russian propaganda machine. They do have one of the world's finest, you know.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 05:30 PM

Let's say that someone here managed to win some minor verbal point or other in a lengthy political argument...

Then what?

Would it change what happens in Georgia? Would it change what happens anywhere? ;-)

No. But it would give that person a glorious sense of their own ego reinforcement that could probably carry them, oh, for a day or two...

(sigh) These things are so ephemeral. I won an argument with some guy named Richard back in high school. I can't remember what it was about anymore, but I know this: he didn't have his facts right. Ha! He turned out to be wrong. Wrong, I tell you, wrong! But does anyone remember now (except me)? No. And does anyone care? No. And did it change anything. No.

There's simply no justice! ;-D


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 05:43 PM

Oh come on, the Russians must have a go with their 25 year old kit! And they are not going to do it when both the British and US armies are not fully committed, now are they?? Will somebody please ask the Russians to invade Las Malvinas once and for all.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 05:43 PM

Liberal Hawk,

When you said that you are never right, and that statement is correct, that you makes yourself right about that point, nullfying the statement, and unfortunately, making you wrong again.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 05:45 PM

Uhh...yeah... I think...

Could you say that again slowly?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 05:57 PM

pdq, remember this Charlie Brown episode? ...

Charlie Brown is obviously mad as hell. He is yelling at someone in the distance whom we cannot see, apparently as they are walking away. They are evidently ignoring him. We suspect it might be Lucy, but who can say? He keeps yelling louder and louder.

"You think you're SMART, don't you???"

(pause)

"Well, you're not as smart as you THINK you are!!!!"

(pause)

"You're only as smart as I think you are, and I don't think you're very SMART!!!!!!"

(long pause)

"DO YOU FOLLOW ME???"


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 06:19 PM

Russian top military officials have insisted that they have never targeted oil pipelines, though Georgia has several times accused them of doing so.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080812/ts_nm/georgia_ossetia_dc_93

(Sniping is easy. It takes effort to find stuff out.)


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 06:27 PM

Dear Liberal Squawk:

You have now contributed 22 posts out of the total of 161. That is 13.66% of the posts.

Facts contributed by you so far: 0.

Nihilistic anti-Bush and anti-American rants: too many to count. Besides, these could all be on any thread you post to.

This is a very important subject. We are having what may be the most serious conflict with Russia since the Cuban Missile Crisis. Do you really have no more to contribute than silly word games?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 06:30 PM

Fuckin' grow up!


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 06:38 PM

pdq - Go and look at a new thread Amos started about new war maneuvers in the Middle East. Interesting stuff to ponder.

I agree with you that we are on the eve of what could be the most serious confrontation with Russia since the Cuban missile crisis, we are on the eve of what may be the worst war ever seen, but the thing in Georgia is just a sideshow, in my opinion. The overall crisis in the world now has been provoked by the USA and Britain's attempts to secure control of all the oil in the Middle East and Caspian region...their next objective being to bring down the Iranian regime.

Russia is responding to that, as they must, and China will also eventually respond to it, as they must, but Russia and China have not provoked it. It has been provoked by neocon planners in the USA and Great Britain.

The problem is, pdq, you're living in the country that is the primary instigator and aggressor this time around if a great war happens. I don't expect you to get that. Most Germans didn't get it in '39 either. They thought they were defending Germany. They were naturally loyal to their own land and assumed that their government was in the right. Most people do that and they never question why.

If we happen to live through it, you might be surprised by what follows...

If we don't, well, c'est la vie.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 06:38 PM

This is an important subject that is best left to rational people and grownups. It has degenerated into an expose on the failure of the mental health delivery systems of at least four countries.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 06:45 PM

What exactly are you complaining about? If you want to post long lists of facts here, go right ahead. I'm certainly not stopping you.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 06:57 PM

Leadbelly, you have pegged me wrong. I am not American nor do I support Bush anymore than I do Putin. They are both arseholes but Putin is smarter!


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 06:58 PM

Since 2001, Libya has declared an end to its era as a "bad actor" on the international stage, including ending nuclear its weapons program.

Syria has pledged to behave better, although it had no nuclear program that we know of.

North Korea has vowed to give up nuclear ambitions.

That leaves Iran, a country that is a signatory of the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty.

Perhaps a little show of force is needed? Most diplomatic channels say that the majority of Iranians do not want the dangers that come with being a nuclear bully.

War games? What are they going to hurt?

The Georgia conflict is a real "shooting war" and is an incursion by one of the world's three superpowers. This is a crime. It was carfully planned and is an exercise in extortion. It means that an important group of oil pipelines can be held hostage and that the desire of the state of Georgia to join (and be protected by) NATO is probably over.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Nickhere
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 07:06 PM

It's so depressing and upsetting to see yet more images of people's lives destroyed. What's wrong with our so-called world-leaders? World-class idiots more like. Their solution for everything is 'bomb it'. Putin is a disgrace. After all the hopefulness of Glasnost, the guy seems intent on dargging us back into the worst aspects of the Cold War. Of course we now see anoth side effect of Bush's decision to unilaterally invade Iraq to effect regime change. When the US ambassador and other US officials try and lecture Russia, they are laughed out of the house. The Russians aren't taking any lectures from anyone - they've seen how it works: if you're big and strong enough you just tgrab what you can. No one will try and stop you, though they'll talk tough. The secret is to get your troops to occupy as much and as quickly as possible. Then, whenever the ceasefire comes, you can negotiate to give up a few square kilometres of invaded terroritory as a magnanimous gesture while keeping a whole lot more. No-one's going to re-invade to get you out, as long as you're a big powerful country.

But the Russians are the villians here - what they're doing is totally unacceptable and hypocritical (they pounded Chechnya for years for asking for the same thing as S.Ossetia is demanding of Georgia).

Anyway, you already know all that, I suppose I'm not saying anything knew here. I just wish I knew what we ordinary people could do to stop this madness. I'd go and march and protest if I thought it'd make a difference, but I did that over Iraq and I don't know what it achieved, but not much, I reckon. I suppose the only thing was that it helped prevent the neo-cons from having it all their own way without even a voice of dissent, and that's worth soemthing, but I really wish I could just wave a wand and spare those poor civilans the horrors they must endure.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 07:13 PM

Iran has never claimed to be building nuclear weapons. They have claimed to be building nuclear power plants. This does not equate to having "nuclear ambitions" in the sense that you mean, pdq. They have a legal right to use nuclear power for peaceful purposes, and that is all they have ever claimed to be doing.

It is the USA that claims they are building nuclear weapons, and the USA might be lying about that in order to provide a pretext for an attack on Iran. They were lying about WMDs in Iraq in order to provide a pretext for a pre-emptive attack there. Have you forgotten?

How many times will you be fooled by the same scare tactic, pdq?

Now, if the USA could just provoke Iran into attacking them first somehow...wouldn't that be sweet? I'm sure they are busily working on some way to arrange that. There usually are ways...but it would depend on whether the Iranians could be stampeded into such a foolish action or not.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: heric
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 07:29 PM

I sometimes think you don't give enough credit to the EU, or many countries, Little Hawk. You always say "USA" and ignore the rest of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 07:42 PM

"Iran has never claimed to be building nuclear weapons...(t)his does not equate to having "nuclear ambitions"

Some problem here:

You are predisposed to believe anything an American enemy says and, at the same time, call everything the US government (military, politicians, etc.) lies. Your perception does not equal reality.

The US is involved in two huge police actions and has had to stay neutral in Sudan, Mozambique, Burma and other places where our military might (that is might) help. A few selected nuclear targets may be surgically removed in Iran, but it will be Israel who does the dirty part of the job.

Perhaps the slanted news you read does not tell you that Israeli intelligence has knowledge of exact locations of weapons facilities, how much "yellow cake" has been bought and how far along the enrichment process is at each facility.The government also sent a team into Iran and assasinated the leading scientist in the Iranian weapons program. Israel is in danger and a few nutcases in Iran will be delt with.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: heric
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 08:13 PM

The USA has a lot of dupes falling prey to its duplicitous and nefarious scheme:

"Iran should understand one day that it's simply not possible to keep a negative role by continuing the enrichment of uranium. Prospective of Iran making a nuclear bomb is simply not acceptable. This is the Italian position which is very firm. We believe in the double-track strategy; on one hand, putting up a table, a generous offer, on the other hand, standing very firm on confirming that if Iran does not take seriously negotiations with Europe and with the international community, we cannot accept to stay inactive and we will have to implement in full."

-Italian Foreign Minister Franco Frattini

"I appeal again to the Iranian side no longer to play for time, but to give us a usable answer to our offers: Stop dallying."

-German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier

"We have to prepare for the worst, and the worst is war"

-French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner

"Iran should now implement relevant Security Council resolutions earnestly, and actively respond to the request and appeals of the international community to create conditions for resumption of negotiations."

-Chinese Foreign Ministry Spokesperson Liu Jianchao

"The offer that has been made to Iran on the one hand ... and the sanctions on the other, if they refuse to engage and reply, is exactly the right approach."

-British Foreign Secretary David Miliband
----------------------------------------------

The Soviet invasion of Georgia and the USA plot against Iran are not morally equivalent.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 08:20 PM

That leaves Iran from whom? the guys with the black hats? The Indians? The guys whose asses we said we would whup so that little countries don't stand against our view of the world?

It seems to me fairly obvious that the only way towards a peaceful future is when the rich and powerful lead us away from flexing military muscles. When we strengthen the UN rather than bully small nations into support and then when we still don't convince enough people there say "fuck it! We are strong enough to go ahead anyway."

When we begin to treat the lives of all the little people in the world as significant and support the principles of law order, human rights and due process.

The concept of teaching the population (as opposed to the military) a lesson wasn't invented by the Georgian Air Force, or the Russians if you think that is what they have been doing, it has been used by the rich and powerful since time began. The march of civilisation is the march away from Shock and Awe, away from torture, detention without trial, arming and training the enemy of my enemy, talking up democracy when they vote the way we like but supporting dictatorships like the Saudi Royal family when they grease our palms.

Yes it's all very well to condemn the leaders of Georgia, South Ossetia or Russia but the real change in attitudes needs to come in the people around us so that those who take decisions in our name know we are bothered about what is done on our behalf. When you throw the big stones it is foolish to moan about the harm the rippples do.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 08:26 PM

Iran is a signatory to the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty. As Saddam found out, breaking treaties (in his case, the one he signed at Safwan) can have serious consquences. The Iraniam Islamic terrorist government must be dealt with soon. One Iranian nuke is too many.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 09:30 PM

Well, from the way things are going in Georgia, it looks like they ought to let the president of France deal with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 01:07 AM

Yes, I get your point, heric, and it's a worthy one. I feel that the main impetus for a war against Iran is coming from the USA and the UK, but undoubtedly there are other voices chiming in as well.

pdq - I am by no means convinced that the Iranians are building any nuclear weapons. Neither am I convinced that they are not. I simply don't know. If they were building any, I would consider it enormously unlikely that they would attack Israel first with those weapons and guarantee their own destruction...because I don't think they're insane. You obviously do think they're insane, and that's why we have different expectations in that regard.

I think that if Iran had 10 or 20 nukes ready right now...and the means to deliver them...that Iran, Israel, and the American fleet and everyone else around there would be a lot safer than they are now, because no one would dare start a regional war under those conditions.

You don't think so, because you think they're insane. Well, it's very convenient to imagine that your "enemy" is insane when you are yourself planning to commit a violent and insane act of unprovoked aggression against him, isn't it? It makes it "okay". What a sad line of reasoning.

Saddam wasn't insane either. He was a criminal dictator, but he wasn't insane, he was quite pragmatic. I think the Iranians are probably pragmatic too. They have to be, because they're outgunned by the USA/UK and Israel. But the USA always loves painting their next chosen "enemy" (victim) as being led by someone who is "insane", because that apparently justifies the USA launching a pre-emptive strike. I regard it as doubletalk, meant to get the American public onside. Scare your people into supporting unprovoked aggression against someone, then do it.

That was the deal in Iraq. I expect that will be the deal in Iran too.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Joy Bringer
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 02:09 AM

Well the message to Georgia must be stop the sniping and winging on television and accept their actions recently caused the deaths of their own nationals. Russia will not be messed around by a dot of a country who run to the west every time they don't get their own way.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Leadbelly
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 05:13 AM

Sandy: I'm sorry...


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 06:29 AM

1. Radio reports that the Georgian government was under cyber attack from Russian sources "several weeks" before the present incursion by Georgia into Ossetia.


2. Now who is invading whom?

Georgia says Russian tanks violate truce

Wednesday, August 13, 2008 9:40:39 AM
By CHRISTOPHER TORCHIA and MISHA DZHINDZHIKHASHVILI

Georgian officials charged Wednesday that Russian tanks had rolled into a strategic city and seized a military base inside Georgia in violation of a freshly brokered truce intended to end a conflict that had bloodied and battered the U.S. ally and uprooted tens of thousands of people.

The accusation came less than 12 hours after Georgia's president said he accepted a cease-fire plan brokered by France. Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said that Russia was halting military action because Georgia had paid enough for its attack on South Ossetia, a separatist region along the Russian border with close ties to Moscow.

Still, Medvedev ordered the Russian defense minister at a televised Kremlin meeting to destroy any resistance or aggressive actions.

Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili had gambled on a surprise attack late Thursday to regain control over his country's pro-Russian breakaway province of South Ossetia. Instead, Georgia suffered a punishing beating from Russian tanks and aircraft that has left the country with even less control over territory than it had before.

In the newest development, Georgia's Security Council chief Alexander Lomaia said that Russia had moved 50 tanks into Gori, a strategic town 15 miles from the border with South Ossetia, violating the new accord. The RIA-Novosti news agency cited the Russian Defense Ministry as denying the claim.

Georgian Interior Ministry spokesman Zurab Gvenetadze said that Russian forces seized a military base on the outskirts of Gori, situated on Georgia's only significant east-west road.

Russian troops previously had moved to near Gori, but were not in the city when the truce was announced, Georgian officials said.

Lomaia said that Russian troops also held onto ground in western Georgia, maintaining control of the town of Zugdidi where they seized the central police station and government buildings and saddling the main highway in the region. He said there had been no fresh clashes since the truce.

Georgia said Wednesday its troops have withdrawn from the only area of the breakaway province of Abkhazia they still occupied in the face of a Russian offensive there. Temur Yakobashvili, Georgian's minister for reintegration, said that Georgian troops had left the area known as the Kodori Gorge.

A Russian general on Tuesday asserted the Georgians had been driven out but by separatist forces and not by the Russian military. On Tuesday, an Associated Press reporter witnessed about 135 Russian military vehicles heading toward the gorge.

Saakashvili said Russia's aim all along was not to gain control of two disputed provinces but to "destroy" the smaller nation, a former Soviet state and current U.S. ally.

Russia accused Georgia of killing more than 2,000 people, mostly civilians, in South Ossetia. The claim couldn't be independently confirmed, but witnesses who fled the area over the weekend said hundreds had died.

The overall death toll was expected to rise because large areas of Georgia were still too dangerous for journalists to enter and see the true scope of the damage.

Georgia's Health Minister Alexander Kvitashvili said Wednesday that 175 Georgians had died in five days of air and ground attacks that left homes in smoldering ruins. He said many died Tuesday in a Russian raid of Gori just hours before Medvedev declared fighting halted.

An AP reporter also saw heavy damage inflicted to a Georgian village near Gori by a raid which the villagers said came only half-hour before Russian television broadcast Medvedev's statement. Two men and a woman in the village of Ruisi, in undisputed Georgian territory just outside South Ossetia, were killed and another five were wounded.

"I always hide in the basement," said one villager, 70-year old Vakhtang Chkhekvadze, as he was picking away what was left of a window frame torn by an explosion. "But this time the explosion came so abruptly, I don't remember what happened afterward."

The first relief flight from the U.N. refugee agency arrived in Georgia as the number of people uprooted by the conflict neared 100,000. Thousands streamed into the capital.

Those left behind in devastated regions of Georgia cowered in rat-infested cellars or wandered nearly deserted cities.

Georgia, which is pushing for NATO membership, borders the Black Sea between Turkey and Russia and was ruled by Moscow for most of the two centuries preceding the 1991 breakup of the Soviet Union.

South Ossetia and Abkhazia have run their own affairs without international recognition since fighting to split from Georgia in the early 1990s. Both separatist provinces are backed by Russia, which appears open to absorbing them.

Medvedev said Georgia must allow the provinces to decide whether they want to remain part of Georgia. He said Russian peacekeepers would stay in both provinces, even as Saakashvili said his government will officially designate them as occupying forces.

Georgia sits on a strategic oil pipeline carrying Caspian crude to Western markets and bypassing Russia. The British oil company BP shut down one of three Georgian pipelines, saying it was a precaution.

------

Associated Press writers Christopher Torchia reported from Zugdidi, Georgia, and near the Kodori Gorge. Misha Dzhindzhikhashvili from Tbilisi, Georgia. David Nowak in Tbilisi; Sergei Grits in Ruisi, Georgia; Douglas Birch in Tskhinvali, Georgia; Jim Heintz, Vladimir Isachenkov, Lynn Berry and Angela Charlton in Moscow; Pauline Jelinek and Lolita C. Baldor in Washington and John Heilprin at the United Nations contributed to this report.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 06:55 AM

Washington Post

Another Hard Landing for Russia?

By Eugene Rumer
Wednesday, August 13, 2008; Page A15

Russia's victory in Georgia is payback for years of geopolitical irrelevance, for Moscow's retreat from Eastern Europe and from the Soviet Union, for Western finger-wagging at Russian transgressions at home and abroad. Russia is back: Its gross domestic product has increased from $200 billion in 1999 to $1.2 trillion in 2007. Moscow has more money from oil and gas exports than it knows what to do with.

The Russian military is showing off its newfound strength, punishing the Georgians for their sins, the greatest of which is forgetting in whose back yard they live. Moscow has warned Poland and the Czech Republic not to deploy U.S. missile defense components on their territories. The Kremlin has also told Washington that it should mind its own business.

We have seen something like this before, though. Thirty years ago, flush with oil and gas revenue, the Soviet Union was threatening Europe and challenging the United States. In 1979, Soviet tanks rolled into Afghanistan and seemed poised to keep going to fulfill centuries-old Russian ambitions of reaching the warm waters of the Indian Ocean. The West could do nothing to stop Moscow's juggernaut unless it was willing to risk nuclear annihilation.

The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan drove the final nail into the coffin of detente -- a policy of tentative East-West rapprochement. It also marked the start of one of the frostiest chapters in the Cold War saga, which ended with the Soviet Union's collapse. A decade later, there would be no more Warsaw Pact. Europe would be sending humanitarian aid to Russia. The Soviet military would be defeated in Afghanistan. What caused all that? We are still not quite sure. The war in Afghanistan, excessive military spending, reliance on oil and gas exports for revenue, failure to reform the Soviet economy, and the lack of outlets for domestic opposition are all high on the list of regular suspects.


Fast-forward to 2008. Russia is riding high, making up for all that was lost in preceding decades. U.S. and European leaders are flummoxed by how to punish the rising giant that they also badly need -- to feed our oil addiction, to help us cut a deal with Iran and to go on buying our currency to keep its value from sliding further. But who is to say that Russia's victory in Georgia will not lead to another disaster in a few years?

There is plenty of trouble brewing in Russia, not unlike the trouble to which Moscow turned a blind eye 30 years ago, as its tanks rolled into Afghanistan and caused a break in relations with the West. The vast Russian military can crush Georgia's army of 35,000. But Russia's own North Caucasus region, just across the border from Georgia, has been a simmering cauldron for nearly two decades. The conditions in Russia look different from the conditions of 30 years ago, but Russia's reality is still grim. Moscow may have more billionaires than other European capitals, but the Russian population is still shrinking, the average Russian man is not expected to live past 60, oil still dominates the country's economic future, and the taps are running dry.

No matter how the current crisis is resolved, the consequences for East-West (that Cold War term again) relations will be far-reaching. The stain on Russia's reputation in the West will not be erased for years. It will take a very different -- and most improbable -- Russian attitude to repair the damage.

In the meantime, could it be that Russia, petro-confident and irredentist, seeking to reverse the record of the past two decades, is careering toward another 1989 or 1991? Will it heed the lessons of the Soviet era? What will happen if it does not? Will the North Caucasus break out of Moscow's grip? Will the Far East turn into a Chinese colony? Will the West once again confront the prospect of Moscow's former satrapies suddenly becoming major nuclear powers? Will the specter of Russian "loose nukes" keep haunting the West?

It will take skill and patience to get Russia to a soft landing from its present high. Moscow's record at soft landings is not good. The consequences of it landing hard will be felt far beyond its borders. We should be thinking about that, even if the Russians are not.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 08:52 AM

Russian convoy heads into Georgia, violating truce
Wednesday, August 13, 2008 12:30:51 PM
By CHRISTOPHER TORCHIA and MISHA DZHINDZHIKHASHVILI

A Russian military convoy thrust deep into Georgia on Wednesday and Georgian officials said Russian troops bombed and looted the crossroads city of Gori, violating a freshly brokered truce intended to end the conflict.

In the west, Georgia's weakened military acknowledged its soldiers had pulled out entirely from Abkhazia, leaving both breakaway regions at the heart of the fighting in the hands of Russian-backed separatists.

Even as the Russian troops moved deep into Georgian territory from the separatist region of South Ossetia, a few dozen fighters from Abkhazia offered their own brazen challenge, planting their flag on a bridge over the Inguri River -- outside the rebel territory.

"The border has been along this river for 1,000 years," separatist official Ruslan Kishmaria told AP on Wednesday. He said Georgia would have to accept the new border and taunted the departed Georgian forces by saying they had received "American training in running away."

An AP reporter saw several dozen Russian military trucks and armored vehicles speeding out of Gori and heading south, further from the breakaway province of South Ossetia.

Soldiers waved at journalists and one soldier shouted to a photographer takning shots of the convoy: "Come with us, beauty, we're going to Tbilisi." Gori is about a 90-minute drive from the Georgian capital.

The developments came less than 12 hours after Georgia's president said he accepted a cease-fire plan intended to end the fighting that bloodied and battered the U.S. ally and uprooted an estimated 100,000 people.

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said that Russia was halting military action because Georgia had paid enough for its attack on South Ossetia, a separatist region along the Russian border with close ties to Moscow.

....

Georgia's Security Council chief Alexander Lomaia said that Russia had moved 50 tanks into Gori, a strategic town 15 miles from the border with South Ossetia, violating the new accord.

"Russia has treacherously broken its word," Lomaia said.

Russia's deputy chief of General Staff Col.-Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn denied any tanks were in Gori. He said Russians went into the city to try to implement the truce with local Georgian officials but could not find any.




So, who is lying? The AP reporters and photographers? Or Russia?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 09:47 AM

No offense taken Leadbelly. I perhaps was not clear on my position. I support none of these leaders and bemoan the cost of human suffering involved. Brinkmanship is game where the leaders are not usually found on the firing line.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 10:52 AM

"Saakashvili said Russia had more sinister aims than to gain control of the two disputed provinces.

"Georgia is the first test case," he said. "It was chosen first because it was a very successful democracy. We had the highest economic growth rate here, we have freedom of press, civil society."

At a rally Tuesday, Saakashvili was joined by the leaders of five former Soviet bloc states — Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and Ukraine — who also spoke out against Russian domination.

"Our neighbor thinks it can fight us. We are telling it no," said Polish President Lech Kaczynski"


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 11:09 AM

On "ethnic cleansing"

South Ossetia has always been and remains roughly 65-70% Ossetian and 30-35% Georgian. CarolC made the claim that the South Ossetians had been largely self-sufficient and independent since the early 1990's. Fact is the area and the people are as poor as church mice and no-one has ever really cared two figs about them. Their only source of income stems from customs duties for goods passing through a tunnel on the main trunk road between Russia and Tblisi. Far from being largely self-sufficient they have been subsidised to the hilt directly by Russia. There is absolutely no way on God's earth that South Ossetia could ever be "Independent". Independence is not the desired result incorporation into Russia is the aim. The parallel with the German take-over of the Sudatenland in 1938 is frighteningly similar.

Now Abkhazia is a completely different story:

1926 Census 186,004(Total) 67,494(Georgians) 55,918(Abkhazians) 12,553(Russians) 25,677(Armenians) 14,045(Greeks)
1939 Census 311,885(Total) 91,967(Georgians) 56,197(Abkhazians) 60,201(Russians) 49,705(Armenians) 34,621(Greeks)
1959 Census 404,738(Total) 158,221(Georgians) 61,193(Abkhazians) 86,715(Russians) 64,425(Armenians) 9,101(Greeks)
1970 Census 486,959(Total) 199,596(Georgians) 77,276(Abkhazians) 92,889(Russians) 74,850(Armenians) 13,114(Greeks)
1979 Census 486,082(Total) 213,322(Georgians) 83,087(Abkhazians) 79,730(Russians) 73,350(Armenians) 13,642(Greeks)
1989 Census 525,061(Total) 239,872(Georgians) 93,267(Abkhazians) 74,913(Russians) 76,541(Armenians) 14,664(Greeks)
2003 Census 215,972(Total) 45,953(Georgians) 94,606(Abkhazians) 23,420(Russians) 44,870(Armenians) 1,486(Greeks)

Now as CarolC pointed out both Abkhazia and South Ossetia fought for "independence" from Georgia in 1990-91. Looking at the census figures for 1989 and 2003 reveals what CarolC? Ethnic Cleansing of Georgians, Armenians and Greeks (I can understand why the Russian population of the area would drop after the collapse of the USSR, they simply returned home) What are the "Rights of Return" here CarolC and what would be the result of any referendum if one were held after they had returned?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 11:18 AM

1979 Census 486,082(Total)
213,322(Georgians) 83,087(Abkhazians) 79,730(Russians) 73,350(Armenians) 13,642(Greeks)
1989 Census 525,061(Total)
239,872(Georgians) 93,267(Abkhazians) 74,913(Russians) 76,541(Armenians) 14,664(Greeks)
2003 Census 215,972(Total)
45,953(Georgians) 94,606(Abkhazians) 23,420(Russians) 44,870(Armenians) 1,486(Greeks)


Hmmm... I guess those evil Georgians have struck again.

Comments, CarolC?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: heric
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 11:19 AM

Irredentist: any position advocating annexation of territories administered by another state on the grounds of common ethnicity or prior historical possession, actual or alleged.

Word of the day.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 11:26 AM

Sounds more like ya made the tooth doctor mad.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 11:43 AM

BB, I don't have the time to go into it right now, but those census results aren't quite what you make them out to be.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 02:01 PM

Russian troops and paramilitaries rolled into the strategic Georgian city of Gori on Wednesday, apparently violating a truce designed to end the conflict that has uprooted tens of thousands and scarred the Georgian landscape.

Georgian officials said Gori, a central hub on Georgia's main east-west highway, was looted and bombed by the Russians before they left later in the day.

Moscow denied the accusations, but it appeared to be on a technicality: a BBC reporter in Gori reported that Russians tanks were in the streets as their South Ossetian separatist allies seized Georgian cars, looted Georgian homes and then set some homes ablaze.

"Russia Other Top Headlines Photos

Russian troops roll into key Georgian city
100

has treacherously broken its word," Georgia's Security Council chief Alexander Lomaia said Wednesday in Tbilisi, the capital.

An AP reporter saw dozens of trucks and armored vehicles leaving Gori, roaring southeast. Soldiers waved at journalists and one soldier jokingly shouted to a photographer: "Come with us, beauty, we're going to Tbilisi!"

But the convoy turned north and left the highway about an hour's drive from the Georgian capital, and set up camp a mile off the road. Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said Russian troops were near Gori to secure weapons left behind by the Georgians.

To the west, Russian-backed Abkhazian separatists pushed Georgian troops out of Abkhazia and even moved into Georgian territory itself, defiantly planting a flag over the Inguri River and laughing that retreating Georgians had received "American training in running away."


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 02:03 PM

"Independence (of South Ossetia) is not the desired result, incorporation into Russia is the aim."

Yes, most likely it is. After all, the Russians have issued Russian passports to the Ossetians, have they not? From the point of view of the South Ossetians, it sounds like they would be wise to incorporate themselves into Russia at this point.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 02:08 PM

I'd like to see the source of those census numbers.

The reports I'm seeing are saying that the Georgian government's accusations of ethnic cleansing cannot be independently verified. I think I'll wait until I see some independently verified reports before I comment on that.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 02:09 PM

As an entirely autonomous republic (in internal affairs), like Kalmykia.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 02:10 PM

Most of the South Ossetians want to be incorporated into Russia.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 02:11 PM

"I think I'll wait until I see some independently verified reports before I comment on that. "

Did you wait to see verification when you accused the Georgians, based on South Ossetian sources?

Or does this only apply to the side you dislike, as usual?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 02:19 PM

Side I dislike? I never had an opinion about Georgia in my entire life. I was more inclined to dislike Russia for what it has done to the Chechnyans than I was to even think about Georgia at all. I didn't even know about South Ossetia until this conflict broke out a few days ago.

My comment about ethnic cleansing was based on accounts from South Ossetians about the way they were treated by the Georgian military.

On the other hand, I notice that some people pretend to care about human rights, but they really only do so when it helps their agendas.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 02:21 PM

Did you wait to see verification when you accused the Georgians, based on South Ossetian sources?


You insist on verification of the Georgian claims.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 02:25 PM

And by the way, despite what one fiction writer has said in this thread, I have not mentioned Abkhazia in any of my posts.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 02:29 PM

Some keeps saying that I have "accused" Georgia of ethnic cleansing. As usual, this person is lying. I have not accused anyone of ethnic cleansing. If this person would care to go back and actually read the post, they might see what I actually did say. There is a huge difference between raising the possibility of something and making an accusation.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 02:30 PM

*someone keeps saying


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 02:31 PM

"some people pretend to care about human rights, but they really only do so when it helps their agendas."

Yeah. ;-) That is the standard routine just about everywhere and with just about everyone (specially politicians and political commentators). It's an old story. If drawing attention to crime and injustice serves their cause, they will yell about it all the livelong day. If it doesn't, they will either ignore it or deny that it is even happening or make excuses for why it should be happening.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 02:36 PM

For both sides to stop would obviously be the wise (and humanitarian) thing to do.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: gnu
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 02:51 PM

Yo.... GUEST... re your post :

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 02:34 PM

If you don't provide details in that post like I just did for yours, piss off.

It's just common courtesy and common sense. I don't have your kind of time. Be a little more thoughtful, please.

Of course, if you cannot, yer just an asshole troll.

Oh yeah, could you at least pick a name so we know who is... you know.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 03:03 PM

Perhaps it's ethnic cleansing of the South Ossetians that Georgia (and the US) has in mind.

As I said, There is a huge difference between raising the possibility of something and making an accusation. I'll explain how it works for those who don't understand English. "Perhaps" means that something is possible. An accusation would be someone saying someone did do something or is doing something. Raising the possibility that someone might be doing something is not an accusation. It is only speculating about the possibility.

This is why I haven't commented on Russia's accusations that Georgia has committed genocide, and I won't unless I see independent verification of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 03:07 PM

I was watching a video of a Russian government official that I found rather interesting. He was saying that the government of Georgia and western countries like the US are trying to draw comparisons with the Russian government of today and Stalin. He found that highly ironic in light of the fact that Stalin and one of his top generals were both Georgians.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 03:16 PM

This may sound like a repeat but here goes: North Ossetia, South Ossetia and Abhkazia are internationally recognised as regions within the sovereign country of Georgia. These areas were part of the old Soviet Union and the boundries were freely negotiated around 1990. Russia signed the agreements as did the newly-created government of Georgia.

If changes in these territorial boundries must be made, they will be made by free negotiations, not by military force of subversion. Russia: go home.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 03:24 PM

John McCain's accomplice has ties to Georgia's oil. Scheunemann Helped U.S. Firm Win Georgian Energy Deals While Lobbying For Georgia's NATO Membership
Randy Scheunemann is a registered representative of the Government of Georgia in the United States. Accordingly, Mr. Scheunemann has developed a very close relationship with President of Georgia Mikheil Saakashvili and many senior Georgian officials. The WSE team has also begun negotiating possible deals with the Georgian state-run oil company, National Oil Company of Georgia, to assist in the development of Georgia's hydrocarbon industry.

It's about oil again! Bush is there.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 03:31 PM

South Ossetia fought a civil war with Georgia and won. I think the South Ossetians have something to say about whether or not they are a part of Georgia. They want Russia to help them maintain their independence from Georgia. If they want Russia to remain in South Ossetia for this purpose, that's their right. Nobody has a right to force them to remain a part of Georgia if they don't want to, any more than Russia had a right to force Georgia to remain a part of Russia.

People who deny the right of South Ossetia to break away from Georgia, but who uphold Georgia's right to break away from Russia are engaging in hypocrisy.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 03:49 PM

...from a reasonable authority:


"The independence of South Ossetia is not recognized by any other international organization or country, who regard the region, formerly an autonomous oblast within the Georgian SSR, an integral part of the Georgian state. The previous independence referendum, held by the South Ossetian separatists on January 19, 1992, failed to gain any international recognition, since it occurred in the atmosphere of post-war chaos and violated the territorial integrity of the Republic of Georgia recognized by the international community within the borders of the Georgian SSR."


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 04:08 PM

It doesn't matter whether or not South Ossetia's independence from Georgia has any international recognition. What matters is what the South Ossetians recognize.

And by the way, what the South Ossetians want is to unite with North Ossetia, which is an automomous republic in the Russian Federation. They have every right to do this if that's what they want.

If some people think that only some peoples have a right to independence and others don't, they are engaging in hypocrisy.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 04:16 PM

You're arguing like a lawyer, pdq. A lawyer argues for the written letter, but not the spirit of the law. This is okay if you think that laws written down by someone on a piece of paper are more important than people's real concerns and human rights, and more important than reality. It's hypocritical in the extreme.

It is the foundation of most political chicanery and hypocrisy.

The reality, regardless of who the hell in the world officially recognizes what about South Ossetia, is that the South Ossetians do not want to be part of Georgia, they have fought for independence from Georgian and won it, they have been openly attacked by Georgia now, and Georgia is in the wrong to have done that. If the majority of the South Ossetian population wants to leave Georgia and join Russia, you have nothing to say about it and the USA has nothing to say about it, because it's none of your business. It's their business.

The Georgians blew it. Tough. They made a serious error.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 04:21 PM

From Wikipedia:   "In December 1990 the Supreme Soviet of Georgia abolished the autonomous Ossetian enclave....Violent conflict broke ouat towards the end of 1991, during which many South Ossetian villages were attacked and burned as well as Georgian houses and schools in Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia...As a result approximately 1,000 died and 100,000 ethnic Ossetians fled the territory and Georgia proper."

To be continued


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 04:48 PM

CarolC – "People who deny the right of South Ossetia to break away from Georgia, but who uphold Georgia's right to break away from Russia are engaging in hypocrisy."

Can you tell us all exactly when it was that Georgia "broke away" from Russia? The USSR was made up of a number of independent republics – Georgia was one of them. When the Communist System in Russia collapsed the Republics were free to go their own separate ways. The borders of the United Soviet Socialist Republic of Georgia were determined by the Communists sometime around 1921, Abkhazia and South Ossetia lay within those boundaries. I asked earlier if the wishes and desires of the Ossetian people meant anything to the Russians, why was there never a United Soviet Socialist Republic of Ossetia? If the cause being supported by Russia is so laudable why did they not support the Ossetians in Georgia in 1990? When the circumstances were exactly the same? Oh wait a minute they weren't oil was not $115 per barrel, Russia was exporting very little of it and the BTC Pipeline had not been constructed. I supposed Chechnya will get "Independence" next Eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 05:01 PM

They should learn from Kosovo and move a bunch more Russians into South Ossetia, and then vote for independance. Later, they can vote again to join Russia.

                The west seems to like that arrangement.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 05:16 PM

Actually, they may have done something similar. They gave away Russian citizenship to any Ossetian who wanted it. That way the Russian tanks can be said to be protecting Russian citizens from those big bullies in Georgia. Sounds a bit like Hitler claiming to be protecting enthnic Germans from persecution in Poland. Slightly updated scam, but similar.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 05:33 PM

Georgia doesn't have a very long history of being and independent state within the boundaries it now occupies. There was a kingdom of Georgia from the 11th century until the 15th century, which broke up into several kingdoms and principalities in the 16th century. From 1918 to 1921, there was an Independent Republic of Georgia. After the break up of the Soviet Union, Georgia simply declared its independence. The current Georgia has existed since 1991.

Georgia is in no more of a position to force South Ossetia to remain a part of Georgia than Russia is to claim Georgia as a part of Russia.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 05:45 PM

By the way, here is some background on Abkhazia...

http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11670692

http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/rwb.nsf/db900SID/RMOI-6BT2W3?OpenDocument

"In 1992, Abkhaz separatists and Georgian national army began a war that lasted two years, with sporadic violence continuing until 1999, displacing all ethnic groups within Abkhazia. Both militaries were responsible for targeting the other's ethnic population by burning villages and destroying buildings and farm land. According to the Soviet government census of 1989, the pre-war population in Abkhazia was 525,000, 45% of which were classified as ethnic Georgians and 18% classified as ethnic Abkhazians. Post-war Abkhazia is 80-90% ethnic Abkhazian with the rest comprised of a mixed Abkhaz-Georgian population and some 30,000 Georgians on the border who return for harvesting during times of security.

While the numbers of displaced people is controversial and disputed by both sides, some conclusions have been reached. The largest number of displaced were ethnic Georgians. In addition, between 1992 and 1993 approximately 75,000 Russians and 75,000 Armenians fled to Russia, while close to 15,000 Greeks returned to Greece after centuries in Abkhazia. Ethnic Abkhazians also became internally displaced during the prolonged conflict."


The people who fled to Russia, Albania, and Greece were not necessarily fleeing from Abkhazians. Most likely, they were simply fleeing the conflict area.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 05:51 PM

THANK GOD THANK GOD

We were getting tired of AlQada anyway,
now Russia as our good old cold war enemy (with some really GOOD nukes) should whip us all back into submission to our Republican war machine Via the only true miltary master JOHN MC CAIN"T.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 06:17 PM

It suddenly occurred to me to ask what may seem an impertinent question, but I assure you I am genuinely curious as to the response.

Can any of those who favour the secession of all these East European enclaves tell me what their reaction would be if the same thing happened in their own neck of the woods?

How about if Alabama seceded from the US, or Cornwall declared independence from the UK?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 06:31 PM

"...favour the secession of all these East European enclaves..."

Do you mean the ones who have left and are happy, such as Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia and Slovenia, or do you mean the unhappy areas which can't leave such as Chechnya?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 06:32 PM

Big lesson seems to be that Russia is energy independent, but USA not, and that if it be true that USA's modern military machine could defeat the Russian military machine, the USA either cannot or will not (maybe because of energy fears) use it. The looks like Russia rolls out over the rest of Asia and Europe to me until the Chinese stop it if they can.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 06:44 PM

""Do you mean the ones who have left and are happy, such as Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia and Slovenia, or do you mean the unhappy areas which can't leave such as Chechnya?""

Whatever!

But it does make me wonder whether the Americans here would consider that Alabama should have the same right to self determination that they would advocate for, say Chechnya, or is it only right when it's happening to the "other side"?

Ditto, the Brits. Should Cornwall have the right to freedom from UK rule?

I assure you, it's a serious question, not trolling for controversy. I am wondering where our conception of the rights of others runs out of steam, and more importantly WHY?

Don T


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 07:04 PM

An independent Cornwall, I like it!


                  But Alabama tried that twice before. The first time they had to deal with US Grant, and the second time they had to deal with MLK Jr.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 07:14 PM

Don T...No way to answer the question in general terms since each piece of inhabited land has a different history.

The following statement may be contoversial, but I believe it would be best for the Muslim population of Chechnya to find a friendly country and move. People can get up and go, land cannot. The Jews moved about five million people to Israel where they can live next to people who have things in common. They are able to feel safe and in control of their own future. The geographic location of Chechnya make it nearly impossible for Russia to give it up.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 09:03 PM

I don't think I would have too much problem with my state seceding from the US. Might be a big improvement.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 09:52 PM

Georgia President calls down McCain (and Bush).

Here he is on Olbermann's show.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: bankley
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 10:34 PM

Is it getting Cold in here... or is it just me ?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 10:43 PM

The Jews moved about five million people to Israel where they can live next to people who have things in common.
???????????????????????????????????
???????????????????????????????????
???????????????????????????????????

Is that why they are trying to kick the original inhabitants out?

I think they moved 5 million people into Israel because they think that God said that they should do that.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 10:48 PM

"God said that they should do that."

Nope, wrong again. It was the United Nations. Please read a book. Nite, y'all.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 10:55 PM

>>"God said that they should do that."

Nope, wrong again. It was the United Nations. Please read a book. Nite, y'all.<<

Nope, that's wrong. I have read The Book.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Paul Burke
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 03:27 AM

I think it was Woodrow Wilson who said, after America had advocated the rights of small nations, that he hadn't realised that there were so many small nations. Where ruling elites base their popular appeal on lazy and stupid nationalism, there is bound to be oppression of minorities, and those minorities will assert their own identity. Often in mirror- image stupidity. See Tutsi/ Hutu. It's a folk version of divide and rule, and why I don't listen to Balkan folk music any more. That exciting, off-beat tune might be carrying words like Let's Kill Next Door's Kids Because Their Ancestors Beat Us In 1356.

In the conflict in question, it's clear that the Georgian state (in business since 1991) has failed to acknowledge its ethnic and social diversity, and that this has been one of the sources of the present conflict. It's also unclear why Saakashvili thought it necessary to occupy the South Ossetia by force just now, and that his action shows very clearly why such a country should not be in NATO. Or rather, if they join NATO, why Britain should leave- NATO should not be not just an extension of American foreign policy.

Though the Russians are clearly making an example of Georgia, I don't think Ukraine should be too worried, apart from buying plenty of warm clothes for the winter. It's too big and too accessible from the west, though Russia might well use democratic methods backed up by economic pressure to reassert influence. It's up to the EU and America to counter the economic pressures, and give the people there a modicum of prosperity bto defend.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 06:09 AM

More from Wikipedia:

Not only did violent conflict break out towards the end of 1991, but when 100,000 South Ossetians fled, most "crossed the border into North Ossetia", that is, into Russia proper.





It's more than a bit of a stretch to read Sudetenland into the current crisis. People who vote with their feet make their view quite clear--except perhaps to those brilliant foreign policy analysts who are prisoners of their own Manichean world view and so clueless that they, for instance, mistake GWB for Churchill and do not recognize Bush's Iraq propaganda campaign. (To pick two purely theoretical examples.)

As Paul has pointed out, the other former members of the Soviet sphere of influence are plenty big enough to give Russia pause. To anybody who reads, it's plenty clear who the majority of South Ossetians see as the long-term aggressor. And it's not Russia.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 07:50 AM

More Georgian agression...


Georgia: Russians move into Gori, explosions heard
Thursday, August 14, 2008 11:23:24 AM
By CHRISTOPHER TORCHIA

Explosions were heard near Gori on Thursday as a Russian troop withdrawal from the strategic city seemed to collapse. A fragile cease-fire appeared even more shaky as Russia's foreign minister declared that the world "can forget about any talk about Georgia's territorial integrity."

The declaration from Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov came simultaneously with the announcement that Russian President Dmitry Medvedev was meeting in the Kremlin with the leaders of Georgia's two separatist provinces.

"One can forget about any talk about Georgia's territorial integrity because, I believe, it is impossible to persuade South Ossetia and Abkhazia to agree with the logic that they can be forced back into the Georgian state," Lavrov told reporters.

At least five explosions were heard near Gori. It could not immediately be determined if the blasts were a renewal of fighting between Georgian and Russian forces, but they sounded similar to mortar shells and occurred after a tense confrontation between Russian and Georgian troops on the edge of the city.

The strategically located city is 15 miles south of South Ossetia, the separatist region where Russian and Georgian forces fought a brutal five-day battle. Russian troops entered Gori on Wednesday, after the two sides signed the cease-fire that called for their forces to pull back to the positions they held before the fighting started.

Georgia early Thursday said the Russians were leaving the city, but later alleged they were bringing in additional troops. Georgian government officials who had gone into the city for a possible handover left unexpectedly around midday, followed by a confrontation at a Russian checkpoint on Gori's outskirts that ended when Russian tanks sped toward the area and Georgian police forces retreated.

Some Georgian police said irregular fighters from South Ossetia had refused to leave Gori, where a BBC reporter saw them looting and burning Wednesday night.

The first of two planned U.S. aid flights arrived in the Georgian capital of Tbilisi late Wednesday, carrying cots, blankets and medicine for refugees displaced by the fighting. The shipment arrived on a C-17 military plane, an illustration of the close U.S.-Georgia military cooperation that has angered Russia.

Besides the hundreds killed since hostilities broke out, the United Nations estimates 100,000 Georgians have been uprooted; Russia says some 30,000 residents of South Ossetia fled into the neighboring Russian province of North Ossetia.

Gori was battered by sporadic Russian bombing before the cease-fire, with Russia saying it was targeting a military base near the city. The city, on Georgia's only significant east-west road, is only 60 miles west of Tbilisi.

The Russian troops' presence in Gori was viewed as a demonstration of the vulnerability of the capital.

Russian troops also appeared to be settling in elsewhere in Georgia.

An APTN camera crew saw Russian soldiers and military vehicles parked Thursday inside the Georgian government's elegant, heavily-gated residence in the western town of Zugdidi. Some of the soldiers wore blue peacekeeping helmets,others wore green camouflage helmets, all were heavily armed. The scene underlined how closely the soldiers Russia calls peacekeepers are allied with its military.

"The Russian troops are here. They are occupying," Ygor Gegenava, an elderly Zugdidi resident told the APTN crew. "We don't want them here. What we need is friendship and good relations with the Russian people."

Georgia, bordering the Black Sea between Turkey and Russia, was ruled by Moscow for most of the two centuries preceding the 1991 breakup of the Soviet Union.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice was flying Thursday to France and then to Tbilisi to reinforce U.S. efforts to "rally the world in defense of a free Georgia."

"This is not 1968 and the invasion of Czechoslovakia where Russia can threaten a neighbor, occupy a capital, overthrow a government and get away with it. Things have changed," Rice said in Washington on Wednesday.

The Russian General Prosecutor's office on Thursday said it has formally opened a genocide probe into Georgian treatment of South Ossetians. For its part, Georgia this week filed a suit against Russia in the International Court of Justice, alleging murder, rape and mass expulsions in both provinces.

More homes in deserted ethnic Georgian villages were apparently set ablaze Wednesday, sending clouds of smoke over the foothills north of Tskhinvali, capital of breakaway South Ossetia.

One Russian colonel, who refused to give his name, blamed the fires on looters.

Those with ethnic Georgian backgrounds who have stayed behind -- like 70-year-old retired teacher Vinera Chebataryeva -- seem increasingly unwelcome in South Ossetia.

As she stood sobbing in her wrecked apartment near the center of Tskhinvali, Chebataryeva said a skirmish between Ossetian soldiers and a Georgian tank had gouged the two gaping shell holes in her wall, bashing in her piano and destroying her furniture.

Janna Kuzayeva, an ethnic Ossetian neighbor, claimed the Georgian tank fired the shell at Chebataryeva's apartment.

"We know for sure her brother spied for Georgians," said Kuzayeva. "We let her stay here, and now she's blaming everything on us."

Pointing to her broken door, Chebataryeva said Ossetian soldiers broke into her apartment and started firing at the Georgian tank from her windows.

North of Tskhinvali, a number of former Georgian communities have been abandoned due to the intense fighting of the last few days. "There isn't a single Georgian left in those villages," said Robert Kochi, a 45-year-old South Ossetian.

But he had little sympathy for his former Georgian neighbors, whom he accused of trying to drive out Ossetians. "They wanted to physically uproot us all," he said. "What other definition is there for genocide?"

------

Associated Press writers Misha Dzhindzhikhavili in Tbilisi; Mansur Mirovalev in Tskhinvali, Georgia; Jim Heintz in Moscow and Anne Gearan in Washington contributed to this report.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 07:57 AM

Now please feel free to correct me if I am wrong here but it was the Russians who sent troops into South Ossetia to protect what it views as it's citizens from attack from Georgian Government troops. Georgian troops having retreated and withdrawn completely from South Ossetia were then pursued into Georgia "proper" where the Russians claimed to be "demilitarising" areas from which any future attack may occur. After which they will hand over control of those areas to Georgian authority.

Now all that is understandable, but can anybody explain why Russian Forces undertaking these operations within Georgia feel the need to be accompanied by South Ossetian "Militias"??


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 08:02 AM

One would have to be totally insane or profoundly stupid to want Georgia to join NATO with its current President. Since he campaigned in 2004 on a platform of reigning in the breakaway republics it would be like signing up for a shooting war with Russia. Why does George Bush want to break up NATO?

BTW Bruce, since that is an AP article couldn't you have made a link?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 08:11 AM

Jack,

I posted links before, and got comments how Georgia was at fault when the article said that Russia was advancing into Georgia proper after the ceasefire- I have to presume that some here have difficulty in actually reading linked aricles before commenting on them.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 08:19 AM

Then Bruce, you ought to be explaining these things and if you must, use the links to support your explanations.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 09:34 AM

Yesterday, in the midst of a minor brainfart, I included North Ossetia with Abkhazia and South Ossetia as Georgian territory while knowing full well that it was placed within Russia at the same time that Georgia was granted independence.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 09:46 AM

"NATO should not be not just an extension of American foreign policy"

That's all NATO ever has been, in my opinion. (although some of its members balk now and then...)

****

Now, here's some info about Mr Saakashvili. I have added some italics to one part:

"Mikheil Saakashvili was born in Tbilisi, capital of what was then the Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic in the Soviet Union, to a Georgian intelligentsia family. His father, Nikoloz Saakashvili, is a physician who still practices medicine in Tbilisi and directs a local Balneological Center. His mother, Giuli Alasania, is a historian who lectures at Tbilisi State University.

Saakashvili graduated from the School of International Law of the Kiev State University (Ukraine) in 1992. He briefly worked as a human rights officer for the interim State Council of Georgia following the overthrow of President Zviad Gamsakhurdia before receiving a fellowship from the United States State Department (via the Edmund S. Muskie/FREEDOM Support Act (FSA) Graduate Fellowship Program).

He received an LLM from Columbia Law School in 1994 and took classes in at The George Washington University Law School the following year.
In 1995, he also received a diploma from the International Institute of Human Rights in Strasbourg, France.

After graduation, while on internship in the New York law firm of Patterson Belknap Webb & Tyler in early 1995, Saakashvili was approached by Zurab Zhvania, an old friend from Georgia who was working on behalf of President Eduard Shevardnadze to recruit talented young Georgians to enter politics. He stood in the December 1995 elections along with Zhvania, and both men won seats in parliament, standing for the Union of Citizens of Georgia, Shevardnadze's party."

It sounds to me as if Mr Saakashvili is a hand-picked agent of the US government, chosen by the US State Department and educated as a lawyer at Columbia, then sent back to Georgia to get elected and then manage that country on behalf of American policy.

I'm sure that's how the Russians see him...as a foreign-planted agent.

Imagine that. ;-) Now imagine a hand-picked Quebecois or Mexican lawyer educated in Moscow, chosen for a fellowship by the Kremlin, becoming the president of a newly independent Quebec, or a newly independent northern Mexico, and then declaring the area to be an enthusiastic ally of Russia. Imagine further that he launches an invasion of a separated enclave of Mexican-Americans or English-Canadians who successfully fought a war of secession in the early 90's because they didn't want to be part of the new Quebec or the new Northern Mexico nations.

Now you are beginning to get the picture of how Russia might look upon the situation in Georgia. How would the USA look upon either of the hypothetical situations that I have described above in Quebec or northern Mexico?

Why...the USA would go to war over it. At once! And so would Canada if it was Quebec that was involved. Furthermore, the war would not end with the mere rescue of the embattled separated enclave. It would end with the total military occupation of Quebec or Northern Mexico, and a regime change...and an end to the career of the Russian agent-elect in that region.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 09:57 AM

McCain has received about $200 thousand dollars in April 08 from the President of Georgia via a lobbyist. NO wonder he says we all are Georgians.
Where is my Georgian $




Russian and Georgian troops had a quirky friendly encounter today with all sorts of social interactions until one shot was fired in the seizure of a reporter's camera and 100s of journalists went running from the scene.




Finally Condi has a job she is trained for. Still its cute that she has to work through France to practice her craft of statesmanship with Russia.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 10:06 AM

bush plan to "ease" tension
http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSLD49893320080813



McCain is a Georgian http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/13/mccains-top-foreign-polic_n_118743.html


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 10:10 AM

I believe McCain is a "Georgian". I expect him to invade someone just as soon as he gets into office and has the power to.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Paul Burke
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 10:20 AM

Have the Russians reached Atlanta yet? Will Savannah be renamed Putingrad?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 10:36 AM

Rather different, as those Eastern European and Caucasian nations were brought into the Russian Empire and the USSR by conquest.
"But it does make me wonder whether the Americans here would consider that Alabama should have the same right to self determination that they would advocate for, say Chechnya, or is it only right when it's happening to the "other side"?

Ditto, the Brits. Should Cornwall have the right to freedom from UK rule?

I assure you, it's a serious question, not trolling for controversy. I am wondering where our conception of the rights of others runs out of steam, and more importantly WHY?

Don T"


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 10:40 AM

The more I read about this situation the more I smell neo-con politics... I think that Dick Cheney ordered this up for the sole purpose of creating an opportunity for McWar to whip up a nationalistic lather here in the US while Obama was on vacation...

I think Russia, Obama and the American people have been bamboozled yet again by the neocons, the war profiteers and Dick Cheney...

BTW, I for one am not a Georgian and I do not support Georgian genocide...

Shame on Georgia and shame on the neo-cons...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 11:01 AM

Naturally. Dick Cheney calls up Saakashvili in the middle of the night, could you do me a favour? You see, there is Democrat we don't want to be elected, so would you mind stirring up a war for us, so we can whip up a nationalistic lather thus letting our boy win?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 11:39 AM

Heh! Yeah, that would be a typical little ploy, wouldn't it?

I bet Saakashvili is beginning to regret his reckless behaviour. It is unfortunate that so many ordinary people have suffered on account of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 11:55 AM

From Little Hawks rather fanciful post.

"Now, here's some info about Mr Saakashvili. I have added some italics to one part:"

Point 1:
"Saakashvili graduated from the School of International Law of the Kiev State University (Ukraine) in 1992."

Question: Were there any others who did this at the same time? I cannot see how this qualifies him, or makes him a desirable candidate for recruitment as an agent, or a spy.

Point 2:
"He briefly worked as a human rights officer for the interim State Council of Georgia.........receiving a fellowship from the United States State Department (via the Edmund S. Muskie/FREEDOM Support Act (FSA) Graduate Fellowship Program)."

Question: Was anybody else ever offered a "fellowship" via this Program? Again, I cannot see how this qualifies him, or makes him a desirable candidate for recruitment as an agent, or a spy.

Point 3:
"In 1995, he also received a diploma from the International Institute of Human Rights in Strasbourg, France."

Question: Does this mean that he also a French agent, or spy?

Point 4:
"Saakashvili was approached by Zurab Zhvania, an old friend from Georgia who was working on behalf of President Eduard Shevardnadze to recruit talented young Georgians to enter politics."

Question: I take it from this that Eduard Shevardnadze is also an American agent, or spy. As of course Zurab Zhvania would have to be too.

Point 5:
"He stood in the December 1995 elections along with Zhvania, and both men won seats in parliament, standing for the Union of Citizens of Georgia, Shevardnadze's party."

Question: How did these men rig their elections? How did they know that they were going to win? Or was everyone who voted for them also agents and/or spies?

Point 6:
"It sounds to Little Hawk as if Mr Saakashvili is a hand-picked agent of the US government, chosen by the US State Department and educated as a lawyer at Columbia, then sent back to Georgia to get elected and then manage that country on behalf of American policy."

More Questions:

- On timeline LH how did the US Government know in 1992 that "The Rose Revolution" would take place in Georgia in 2003?

- Mikheil Saakashvili was not educated as a lawyer at Columbia, he had already graduated from Kiev in 1992, he studied for and obtained his Masters Degree in International Law at Columbia.

- "sent back to Georgia"? According to the Wikipedia entry you have "cut'n'pasted" He was invited back to Georgia by a fellow countryman at the behest of the President of Georgia. How does this get convoluted into his being sent back by the US Government?

- Timeline again Little Hawk, how did they (US State Department) get Mikheil Saakashvili on the list of potential candidates for the 1995 election? When he (Mikheil Saakashvili) left the USA and returned to Georgia, how did he (or the US State Department) know that he would be accepted as a candidate?

- Timeline, how did the US State Department know that Mikheil Saakashvili would lead the group who overthrew Eduard Shevardnadze? How did they know that after overthrowing Shevardnadze, he would be asked to lead? I mean let's face it, left school, studied in Ukraine, went to the USA, arrives back in December 1995. In 2003 he still must be relatively unknown in Georgia.

Very poor reasoning and complete and utter absence of logic.

My other question still stands:

Does anyone have any idea how the mighty Russian Army requires the assistance of South Ossetian militiamen inside Georgian territory??

I have got a pretty good idea as to why and what they are there for. I just want to hear some of the justifications put forward by the "fellow travellers".


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 12:16 PM

It's a possibility, Teribus. I figure that the Russians see it that way. I think you'd see it that way if the shoe were on the other foot, and he were a Russian-educated Latin American lawyer being put in charge of some part of Latin America. I think you would consider him to be an agent of Russia in that case.

I think he is an agent of the USA...or a willing servant, which amounts to the same thing.

Sure the Russians are after their own selfish gains here. They're playing at empire, same as the Americans. They both play that game all the time, and the Russians just scored a small victory in the game.

***

"Does anyone have any idea how the mighty Russian Army requires the assistance of South Ossetian militiamen inside Georgian territory??"

They don't require it. ;-) But why would they refuse it? They play dirty in war, same as the Americans do. The Americans were happy to use one set of Afghans to slaughter another set of Afghans and they were happy to use Montagnards against the Viet Cong and catholics against buddhists. This is standard opportunism, and both sides do it whenever and wherever they can. Their objective? Victory.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: bankley
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 12:50 PM

another really interesting fact, all jokes aside, is that reservists from the US State of Georgia recently participated in joint training exercises with the army in Georgia... confused yet ?

can't make this shit up folks.... where's Carlin when we need him ?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:01 PM

Russian troops inside Georgia are there as peacekeepers, enforcing a peace supported by armour, artillery and air-power (Unlike any UN peacekeeping mission).

Now why would they refuse the assistance of South Ossetian Militamen? I can offer a few extremely good reasons:

- They do not add to the weight of what the Russians say they wish to do.

- They do not operate within the Russian "Chain of Command" in what could turn into a "hair trigger" international crisis situation of some consequence. That is if this whole thing hasn't been deliberately engineered by the Russians from the word go.

- Their presence can only serve to inflame the situation, whereas the Russians are stating that they wish to pacify the area.

PS: Little Hawk Russia and Georgia are not at war.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:08 PM

Well, well, well...

Think about this, folks... Who benefits most from Russia getting bogged down in another Checnya styled quaqmire??? Why is it that Putin waged his finger at Bush at the Olympics right after recievind the phone call about Georgia as he was leaving to head home to deal with the crisis??? Waht was the "Rose Revolution"???

When ya'll get those queastions answered then I've got a few more that's gonna make the selling of the Iraq war quite amatuerish compared to this...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:11 PM

I can hear Willie Nelson...

Its just that same old zone
When Georgia's all been mined


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:17 PM

No, they're not technically at war now, Teribus. That's true.

I am not saying that the Russians hands are clean in this affair. However, I think the Georgians brought the mess down upon themselves...or rather, their government leaders did.

It would be wise for the Russians to restrain the Ossetian militia, no doubt about that.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:26 PM

"However, I think the Georgians brought the mess down upon themselves...or rather, their government leaders did."

So, how many dead Georgians from South Ossetian attacks do you think they should have allowed before respnding?

The attacks against Georgia preceeded the Georgian offensive, if you look at the timeline. There was a truce ( by the Georgians) as of 7 Aug, which the Ossetians broke ( according to at least one side)

How can you determine the "blame" when the truth about what happened is still in doubt?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:45 PM

Shaak attack promised violence against South Ossetian's in his initial election campaign. Does that go back far enough?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:51 PM

Wait just a minute, bruce... Either you haven't been keeping up or you think it was okay for Georgia, with their American trained and equipped Army and their CIA annointed president to attack and kill South Ossetians... This is how this got started... Not Russia steppin' in... Or are you gonna try to revise this much the way you have tried to revise how the US people got duped on Iraq???

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 02:17 PM

"Either you haven't been keeping up or you think it was okay for Georgia, with their American trained and equipped Army and their CIA annointed president to attack and kill South Ossetians... This is how this got started... Not Russia steppin' in... "

Do you ever bother to read the posted conmments ( see the timelines above) or do you just jump in on the Anti-Bush ( or US) side without any thought?



Try looking at the facts instead of who you want to support.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian-Ossetian_conflict

BOTH sides contributed to this mess, but a case can be made that Georgia is more the victim than others.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Leadbelly
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 02:31 PM

That's the point, Bobert! It was Saakashwili who started this little war. Don't know why Beardedbruce and others trivialized this fact since the beginning of this thread.
In real life, to do something criminal will produce consesquences.
Always have a look to her beginning...


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 02:33 PM

The Georgian Ministry of Defense said on July 7, 2008 a group of up to ten militiamen were apparently prevented from placing mines on a Georgian-controlled by-pass road linking the Georgian villages in the north of Tskhinvali with the rest of Georgia. The Georgian side opened fire and the group was forced to retreat towards the nearby South Ossetian-controlled village. On July 8, 2008 South Ossetia reported that it had detained four "officers from the artillery brigade of the Georgian Ministry of Defense" close to the village of Okona in the Znauri district at the administrative border the night before.[20] Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili told police to prepare an operation to free the four soldiers, but they were released before an operation was launched.[21]

Russian military jets flew into Georgian airspace through South Ossetia on July 9, 2008 and then returned to Russia. The next day, the Russian authorities confirmed the flight and said, in an official statement, that the fighters were sent to prevent Georgia from launching an operation to free the four soldiers detained by South Ossetia.[22] In response, Georgia recalled its ambassador to Moscow "for consultations", stating that it was "outraged by Russia's aggressive policies."[23]

The incident coincided with the visit of the U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to Tbilisi where she pledged the U.S. support for Georgia's bid to join NATO. She said that granting NATO Membership Action Plan to Georgia would help resolve the Abkhaz and South Ossetian problems. The statement caused a negative outcry in Moscow: the Russian foreign minister Sergey Lavrov responded, during his meeting with the de facto Abkhaz president Sergey Bagapsh, that Georgia's NATO integration process "may undermine the conflict resolution" process.[24] On July 11, 2008, Georgian Deputy Foreign Minister Grigol Vashadze called for an urgent UN Security Council meeting on the conflict zones.[25]

A South Ossetian envoy on July 11, 2008 declared that South Ossetia was capable of repelling any attack by Georgia without help from Moscow and also said the mainly Russian peacekeeping contingent in the Georgian-South Ossetian conflict zone should be increased.[26] The Russian Ministry of Defense said in a statement the same day that measures have been taken "to increase combat readiness" of the Russian peacekeeping forces stationed in Abkhazia. It also said that security had been tightened at the Russian peacekeepers' base camps, observation posts and checkpoints, and "additional training" of the peacekeeping personnel had been conducted "to explain regulations of use of firearm while on duty."[27] Nika Rurua, Deputy Head of the Parliament's Security and Defense Committee, warned that Georgia would shoot down Russia's military aircraft in case they appear in its airspace again and an initiative was considered to this effect, but decided instead to appeal to the world community on the matter. Media reports published information about Russia's alleged plans to seize the Kodori Gorge specifying that the details of the operation were worked out by Russian high-ranking military officials, with Abkhazia's President Sergey Bagapsh. Russia reportedly considered responding[update needed] by revealing the details of a planned military invasion of South Ossetia by Georgia to release their detained officers.[28]

On July 14, 2008 Georgia's deputy defense minister Batu Kutelia said Georgia plans to expand its military more than 15 percent to 37,000 soldiers following events in Abkhazia and South Ossetia. The additional manpower would be used to defend Georgia's airspace and the Black Sea coast.[29] On July 15, 2008 the U.S. and Russia both began exercises in the Caucasus though Russia denies the timing was intentional.[30] The Russian exercises included training to support peacekeepers in Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Georgia claimed the exercises were a manifestation of Russian aggression against it.[31] Also on July 15, Abkhazia and South Ossetia were said to be planning to join the Union of Russia and Belarus, a spokesman for the Union said both regions have talked about joining the Union, but that they would need to be recognized as independent and become observers before they could join the Union as members.[32][33]

According to media reports, on July 19, 2008 a Georgian police post was attacked by Abkhaz militias using grenades, one of the militiamen died from a grenade exploding accidentally. Abkhaz officials condemned the reports as false.[34] Georgian media also reported on July 19 that a battalion of Russian troops had moved into the lower Kodori Gorge.[35] Georgia's Defense Ministry claimed Russian troops encroached on Mamison and Roksky passes in Abkhazia and South Ossetia respectively and are in combat alert. Abkhazia's Foreign Minister said no new troops were brought in over the quota.[36]

A U.N. report issued July 23, 2008 on the period between April and July 2008 noted discrepancies with the Georgian attack of a shooting in Khurcha on the day of Georgian elections. In particular the report noted the way the incident was filmed suggested the attack was anticipated. The report said reconnaissance flights by Georgia were a violation of the ceasefire, but said the shooting down of those fights also constituted a breach of the ceasefire. Concerning a military buildup by Georgia the UN report said it found no evidence of a buildup but noted observers were denied access to certain areas of Abkhazia controlled by Georgia including the Kvabchara Valley.[37]

On July 28, 2008 a spokesman for the Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia said South Ossetian forces had blocked peacekeepers and OSCE observers from the village of Cholibauri which is close to where Georgia says South Ossetia is building fortifications.[38] On July 29, 2008 South Ossetia said two South Ossetian villages had been fired on by Georgian forces in response to South Ossetia reinforcing its positions on the perimeter of the conflict zone.[39] Georgia said the same day that Georgian posts on the Sarabuki heights were attacked by South Ossetian forces with no injuries reported.[38]


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 02:34 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_South_Ossetia_War


"Beginning late on August 1, 2008, intense fighting began between Georgian troops and the forces of South Ossetia. Georgia claimed that South Ossetian separatists had shelled Georgian villages in violation of a ceasefire. South Ossetia denies provoking the conflict.[35][16] On August 3, South Ossetians started to evacuate into Russia and on August 5, Russian ambassador Yuri Popov warned that Russia will intervene if conflict erupts. [36][37] On August 7, 2008, Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili ordered Georgian troops to ceasefire. [38][39] Despite an offer of ceasefire the fighting intensified.[40][41] Hours after the declaration of ceasefire, in a televised address, Mikhail Saakashvili has vowed to restore Tbilisi's control over what he called the "criminal regime" in South Ossetia and Abkhazia and reinforce order.[41]

During the night and early morning Georgia launched a military offensive to surround and capture the capital of South Ossetia, Tskhinvali.[42] The heavy shelling laid the city in ruins, causing a humanitarian crisis which, according to Russian government sources, amounted to genocide. The news of the shelling was extensively covered by Russian media and served as a pretext for the following military reaction and Russia threatened to respond to defend South Ossetians against "a genocide by Georgian forces."[43][16] The extent of civilian casualties was later disputed in a number of sources.

On August 8, 2008, Russia sent troops across the Georgian border to South Ossetia to stop Georgia's offensive against its breakaway territory. In five days of fighting the Russian forces recaptured the regional capital Tskhinvali, pushed back Georgian troops, and largely destroyed Georgia's military infrastructure in airstrikes deep inside its territory.[44] Georgia retreated from its offensive in South Ossetia to defend itself[45]

Action on the Black Sea saw one Georgian missile boat sunk by the Russian Navy on August 9. The Russians claim that the Georgian ships had attacked them earlier. After the skirmish, the remaining Georgian ships fled in defeat.


Destroyed building in South Ossetia.Also on August 9, an offensive was begun by the military of the Republic of Abkhazia in the Kodori Valley, the only region of Abkhazia that was, before the war began, still in effective control of Georgian loyalists. By August 13 all of the remaining Georgian forces, including 3,000 ethnic Georgian civilians, in Kodori Valley had retreated to Georgia proper. [46


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: bankley
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 02:35 PM

how do you say 'pipeline' in Russian ? or oil for that matter ?

get used to it... the bear is back and is swimming in lotsa crude..


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 03:23 PM

First of all, bruce, any time line where we are dependent on on a CIA puppet governmentn to tell US the truth is as bogus as a $3 bill... Listening to their verious ministers of this or that talke about what is fact is like inviting a bridge salesman into yer home...

Do you dispute that the American trained and equipped Georgian army swarmed into South Ossetia last Thursday, killing hundred of civilians and sending thousands of South Ossetians into Russia fleeing the invasion???

I mean, this is as good a place to start as any if the truth matters at all...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 03:44 PM

"Do you dispute that the American trained and equipped Georgian army swarmed into South Ossetia last Thursday, killing hundred of civilians and sending thousands of South Ossetians into Russia fleeing the invasion???"

NO.

Do you dispute that the ( Russian trained and supported) South Ossetians have been engaged in ethnic clensing of Georgians in the (Georgian ) Territory that they and the Russians have taken since that offensive?

Do you dispute the events as outlined in my post of 14 Aug 08 - 02:33 PM ( ie, BEFORE the Georgian attack on last Thursday?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 03:49 PM

On the subject of the postulation that Chechens should move to a part of the world where there are people who are more like them... which part of the world would that be?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: bankley
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 03:52 PM

Lower Slobovia


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 04:07 PM

On the assertion that it was the South Ossetians who broke a cease fire... snipers from both sides had been violating it, not just South Ossetians.

Saakashvilli always planned to force South Ossetia to rejoin Georgia, and the Georgians had been preparing for it militarily for a long time. That makes Georgia the aggressor, and South Ossetia the victims.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 04:10 PM

...and I don't trust Wikipedia for a minute on the subject of who did what to whom and when.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 04:19 PM

"On the subject of the postulation that Chechens should move to a part of the world where there are people who are more like them... which part of the world would that be?"

Scranton?

Schenectady?

Pocatello?

East Orange?

Well, when we find out, let's issue them all passports and move them there, shall we?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 04:23 PM

Russia always planned to force Georgia to release South Ossetia, and the Russians had been preparing for it militarily for a long time. That makes Russia the aggressor, and Georgia the victims.


Just as valid as your comment, CarolC.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 04:28 PM

Damn - I went to Ireland and had to watch developments from there without a PC to rant on.

And now that I'm back it appears to be over.

... I hope ...


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 04:47 PM

Doesn't matter whether or not Russia planned to assist South Ossetia gain its independence. What matters is what the South Ossetians want.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 04:47 PM

No, Bruce, I don't believe any account that begins, "The Georgian Ministry of Defense reported..." The Goergian governemnt is a puppet governemnt of the United Sates so anything it has to report is propaganda...

Please, por favor, tell the good folks of the makeup of the South Ossetain peace-keeping force... That's a good place to start in showing this report to be suspect...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 04:47 PM

No, the aggressor is he who launches the initial full scale invasion, Bruce. That was Georgia. There were undoubtedly some provocations on both sides prior to that, and no one is entirely blameless in the matter, but the Georgians are the aggressor.

They have suffered a sort of similar result (though on a much, much smaller scale) to what Saddam's Iraq suffered when it went into Kuwait...and Iraq was the undeniable aggressor in that case.

No 2 ways about it. Georgia was the undeniable aggressor in this case.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 04:53 PM

Not looking back to July.

So, the Russian Peacekeeping force is now occupying what territory?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 04:55 PM

Going back to 2001, the Georgians have been the aggressors.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 04:58 PM

Be glad, BB, that they are not occupying all of Georgia. They have the power to do so, but perhaps enough wisdom not to use it. The USA is occupying all of Iraq and Afghanistan.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 04:58 PM

And going back to 1991?

Whatever date one picks, the sides can be flipped by going further back.

I do NOT hold Georgia blameless- But the South Ossetians have a large degree of fault, as do the Russians. To fail to acknowledge this, and blame ONLY the Georgians, is to abandon all hope of reaching a realistic solution.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 05:00 PM

I think folks that we must be careful of Putin, his credentials and what he has done to his rivals recently.

He has a billionaire in a cage - just to let him know who's boss

He poisoned the spy - was his name litvinienko? - anyway - he used a gruesome radioactive poison to murder an opponent.

He is a dangerous reactionary and I am more concerned about him than I can ignore.

I found myself agreeing with Ms Rice.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 05:00 PM

Yes. I have said myself that they are all to blame in some measure. That is usually so in these regional struggles.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 05:01 PM

"how do you say 'pipeline' in Russian ? or oil for that matter ?

get used to it... the bear is back and is swimming in lotsa crude.."

Oil is far from the prime issue here, especially as Russia controls the majority of it in that part of the world!!!
Not all the world is as obsessed with oil as the American public seems to be.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 05:03 PM

Georgia is nothin' more than a pawn on the neo-cons chess board to be used like an irritating gnat... Cheney is the one pulling the strings here and the entire prize is capturing the oil reserves in the Middle East... Porblem is that this is more of the failed Bush foriegn policy that is build around miliatray solution with a military that is slowly being decimated and an economy that can not afford to rebuild it...

BTW, Bruce, let me make it easier for you... Were there Russians assigned to the peace keeping force last Thursday???

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 05:10 PM

It looks to me like Russia is going to continue to flex its muscles until Georgia signs a non use of force agreement and agrees that it will not try to force the provinces that have broken away to be reabsorbed into Georgia.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/080814/world/georgia_russia

It also looks to me like Russia is trying to teach Georgia that it's not in that country's best interests to be on a short leash that is controlled by the US.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 05:20 PM

beardedbruce says :"So, the Russian Peacekeeping force is now occupying what territory? "

Bobert says :"BTW, Bruce, let me make it easier for you... Were there Russians assigned to the peace keeping force last Thursday???"



Let me make it easy for YOU, since your illness has affected your reading skills- The Peacekeeping force included Russians.



"The 2008 Georgian - Russia crisis began on March 6, 2008 when Russia announced that it would no longer participate in the Commonwealth of Independent States economic sanctions imposed on Abkhazia in 1996.[1] The crisis has been linked to the push for Georgia to receive a NATO Membership Action Plan and the unilateral declaration of independence by Kosovo.[2] Tensions in the crisis have been primarily centered around the breakaway state of Abkhazia and increased following the shootdown of a Georgian UAV drone airplane and subsequent buildup of military forces by Russia."

"Responding to Kosovo's recent declaration of independence, Russian officials declared Moscow should "reshape its relations with self-proclaimed republics".[3] Russia responded to these calls for increased ties by lifting CIS sanctions, declaring them "outdated, impeding the socio-economic development of the region, and causing unjustified hardship for the people of Abkhazia".[1] Russia also called on other CIS members to undertake similar steps, but met with protests from Tbilisi and lack of support from the other CIS countries.[4] Shalva Natelashvili, leader of the Labour Party of Georgia, warned Abkhazia would be "finally separated from Georgia" and cited the lifting of sanctions as the first sign.[5] Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt, raised similar concerns about the dropping of trade restrictions saying, "That could look like a de facto annexation and that would be a matter of great concern if it were the case."[6]"

"Russia's state-owned Gazprom was reported to be planning oil and gas exploration in Abkhazia beginning July 1, 2008. In addition Abkhazia said international airline flights from Russia could use Sokhumi airport though the International Civil Aviation Organization said such flights would be unacceptable.[14] Officials from Gazprom said there were no plans for oil exploration in Abkhazia, but did say there was a proposal being considered to build a gas pipeline to Abkhazia.[15] Responding to Russian media reports that sea links between Sochi in Russia and Gagra in Abkhazia would be resumed, Georgia threatened to appeal to international marine organizations over the use of "illegal" routes.[16]"


"However, Georgia's defence ministry released video the next day showing what appears to be a Russian MiG-29 shooting down the unarmed Georgian drone. The video, shot from the drone moments before impact, shows a jet launching a missile over what appears to be the Black Sea. According to Georgia the jet came from Gudauta and then returned to Russia. Moscow denied Georgia's accusation and stressed that none of its planes were in the region at the time.[18][19] Furthermore, Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs issued a statement accusing Georgia of violating 1994 Moscow agreement and United Nations resolutions on Abkhazia by deploying without authorisation a UAV (which also can be used to direct fire) in the Security Zone and the Restricted Weapons Zone.[20]

On April 24, a closed-door U.N. Security Council emergency session convened at Georgia's request failed to resolve the dispute, but the U.S., the United Kingdom, France and Germany issued a joint statement expressing their concern over Russia's recent moves in Abkhazia and calling Moscow to reverse or not to implement its decision to legalize ties with Abkhazia and South Ossetia. The Russian ambassador to the U.N. Vitaly Churkin called the demand by the Western states "a tall order" and stressed that Russia had no intention of reversing its plans.[21]"



"On August 12, 2008 at 09:00 UTC Russian president and Russian Army Supreme Commander-in-Chief Dmitry Medvedev stated that "peace enforcing operation in the Georgian-Ossetian conflict zone" was over.[69] Later, Russian General Staff Deputy Head Anatoly Nogovitsyn said armed actions would stop, but reconnaissance operations would continue.[70]

On August 13, a reporter for the UK Guardian stated that "the idea there is a ceasefire is ridiculous," and that he could see villages near Gori burning, amidst claims that Chechen, Cossack and Ossetian irregulars were advancing through Georgian villages.[71] CNN reported that journalists in Gori said they had seen no Russian tanks, contrary to claims by the Georgian president.[72] According to Sky News, Georgia's deputy interior minister said "I'd like to calm everybody down. The Russian military is not advancing towards the capital." The same report said "Sky News correspondents Stuart Ramsay and Jason Farrell confirmed there were tanks in Gori, which has suffered extensively from Russian bombing raids"[73] Al Jazeera reported a "continuous build up" of Russian forces in Poti throughout the day, and the destruction of several Georgian vessels.[74] Russia's deputy chief of General Staff Colonel-General Anatoly Nogovitsyn said sporadic clashes continued in South Ossetia between Georgian snipers and Russian troops. "We must respond to provocations," he said.[75]"


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 05:22 PM

Ah yes, after all the cut and paste, we are left with the unpalatable truth(for some)that this is big payback time for the Russians...and the reason? Basically Western stupidity and short sightedness.

Since the nineties the West, and the USA in particular have treated Russia in the most dismissive manner,ignoring their input on Kosovo, Iraq, Nato membership for Baltic countries. That was short sighted
The stupid part was in attempting to make Georgia an ally and an outpost of US influence, without taking into account ethnic tensions or our future dependence on Russian energy supplies.

America's humiliation in Georgia has been brought about by their own arrogance in supporting and arming a madman(Saakashvili) in an attempt to humiliate Russia.
Bruce, Teribus, pdq and all the other right wingers, who usually trumpet the slogan "might is right", dont like it one little bit when WE are not "the mighty".
They conveniently forget what Georgia has done to South Ossetia...The carving of Kosovo from Serbia...Reagan's invasion of Grenada...Iraq...Afghanistan...the list is endless...Vietnam?

There are many lessons to be learned from the games being played out in Georgia, but the greatest is to NATO and to the Empire which controls it. Do you really want to incorporate the ethnic feuds of the ex-Soviet Caucasian states into your alliance, just to rub salt into the bear's wounds?

As I stated earlier the balance of power is shifting, Russia's star is rising and no amount of sabre rattling or appeals to hypocritical "democratic ideals" is going to make any difference.

At last the West is going to have to play second fiddle and start listening to the tune


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 05:23 PM

Boboert, you would be closer to the mark if you said that the USA's main goal here is to put up a presence around a rival and potential threat's territory. Power, keeping your nation on top, is the name of the game.

Russia is going to keep on flexing it's muscles until Saakashvili is replaced with someone more pliable. They have pretty much said so.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 05:24 PM

Correction to a previous post of mine...


Going back to 1991, the Georgians have been the aggressors.

The conflict began in 1990 when South Ossetia declared itself a Soviet Republic, a move rejected by Georgia, which abolished the region's autonomous status.

Fighting broke out in January 1991 when Georgian forces entered South Ossetia's capital Tskhinvali.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/georgia/2522621/South-Ossetia-factbox.html


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 05:28 PM

The South Ossetian Autonomous Oblast was created in 1922 after the Soviet occupation of Georgia. Hostilities broke out in 1918–1920 after the First World War along with various Caucasian conflicts.

In the late 1980s, when perestroika policy initiated by Premier Gorbachev, rising nationalism in the Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic (SSR) and country's movement towards independence were opposed by the Ossetian nationalistic organization, Ademon Nykhas (Popular Front), which demanded greater autonomy for the region and finally, unification with Russia's North Ossetia. On November 10, 1989, the South Ossetian Supreme Soviet approved a decision to unite South Ossetia with the North Ossetian Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic, part of the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic. However, a day later, the Georgian SSR Supreme Soviet revoked the decision and on 23 November, thousands of Georgian nationalists led by Zviad Gamsakhurdia and other opposition leaders marched to Tskhinvali, the South Ossetian capital, to hold a meeting there. The Ossetians mobilized blocking the road and only the interference of Soviet Army units could avoid the clash between the two demonstrations. The Soviet commanders made Georgian demonstrators turn back. However, several people were wounded in subsequent clashes between Georgians and Ossetians.

On 20 September 1990, the South Ossetian Autonomous Oblast declared independence as the South Ossetian Democratic Soviet Republic, appealing to Moscow to recognise it as an independent subject of the Soviet Union. When the election of the Georgian Supreme Council took place in October 1990, it was boycotted by the South Ossetians. On December 10, 1990, South Ossetia held its own elections, declared illegal by Georgia. A day later, Georgian Supreme Soviet canceled the results of the Ossetian elections and abolished South Ossetian autonomy.[1]

On December 11, 1990, several bloody incidents occurred in and around Tskhinvali. Georgian government declared a state of emergency in the districts of Tskhinvali and Java on December 12. Georgian police and National Guards units were dispatched in the region to disarm Ossetian armed groups.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 05:30 PM

BTW, Bobert:

"Under the terms of a ceasefire agreement concluded in June 1992, a peacekeeping force including South Ossetian, Georgian and Russian troops was deployed along the Georgian-South Ossetian border to maintain the status quo"


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 05:32 PM

The Georgians did that to crush South Ossetia's efforts to split off from Georgia. Georgia had no right to do that. South Ossetia has as much right to declare itself no longer a part of Georgia as Georgia had to declare itself an independent state. That makes Georgia the aggressor.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 05:34 PM

Ahh... I see that all of someone's documentation is still coming from Wikipedia.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 05:36 PM

No one accepts Wikipedia as an authority on anything. One might just as well be providing documentation from Dr. Seuss.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 05:37 PM

As opposed to??/
The Telegraph? The Russian cable service? The South Ossetian Government?


Tell me again ( or rather, for the first time) how you have such god-like certainty about what is happening


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 05:38 PM

ad hominim attack, CarolC. If you care to demonstrate something false in my posts, feel free- but to declare the posts that you do not agree with invalid because you do not agree is admitting you have no valid data yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 05:42 PM

CarolC,

U have posted from other sources, and I stated:
"RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce - PM
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 03:52 PM

1. My "Facts" are from sources that I cannot verify ( from both sides- someone is lying, but I do not know who)"

You have made the claim that all of your information is absolute truth, and cannot be questioned, even though it is obtained from a biased party in the conflict.

So who died and made you God?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 06:19 PM

I can go into Wikipedia and change those entries that have been posted to anything I want any time I want. Why should I or anyone else accept Wikipedia as someone's sole source of documentation? At least is Wikipedia is going to be used, back it up with some supporting documentation. On its own, it has no credibility.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 06:36 PM

Woah, bruce, whoa... Slow down, son, yer gonna hurt yerself and in yer haste, maybe miss the fact that your intial time line argument, based on Georgian sources, may not hold water...

Okay, so there were Russian "peace keeping" forced in South Ossetia last Thursday... That is a good start to debunking the rest of the Georgian version...

So, Bruce... Were they dressed up in tie-dyed shirts walkin' 'round with flowers??? If not, how were they dressed???

We're gonna take this real slow, bruce, so ya' might as well just get used to it but I'm sure we'll all benefit in the end...

Please answer the question the best you can... One paragraph will do nicely...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 07:16 PM

Bruce,

I take it that you were for what Israel did to Lebanon in the response to the kidnapping of a couple of soldiers a couple of years ago. Isn't what Russia did in response to the shelling of its peace keepers about the same? How can you support one and not the other.

By the way, I think that both hugely over reacted and were playing broader geopolitical games. But isn't sauce for the goose sauce for the gander.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 07:18 PM

Fu#k with the tiger, ya get a face fulla claws.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 07:37 PM

Unless the Tiger is George Bush, the dude who Fu#ked with him you just moved to Pakistan while he spends a trillion dollars making Iraq nearly, nearly as peaceful, safe and stable as he found it.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 07:38 PM

I think I'll have a few dozen beer the day Obama is sworn in.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 07:55 PM

Danged.... Usually when I ask bruce a question, go back to restin', I come back and he's tried to answer it with 'bout 5 cut 'n posts but, geeze, seems I was a sllep a long time and come back and bruce hasn't found a source that describes what the Russian peace keepers wear???

Hmmmmm???

Oh, an' yeah... There is relevence to this question and next few, bruce because this ol' hillbilly sniffs a Gulf of Tonkin here so will you please answer the question so we can get to the next one???

I mean, if you expect us to accept your arguments based on your expert witness, in this case the Defense Ministry of Georgia, it is only fair to determind wheteher or not thay are a crdible source, right???

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 08:00 PM

They wear blue helmets. With a UN logo on them.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 08:05 PM

I watched BBC newsnight tonight and listened with great understanding and interest to a Russian spokesman as he explained their official perspective.

I reflected on the images I had just seen on the news which showed Georgian civilians and Western press being shot at by Ossetian seperatists under the cool eye of the russian military on the road between Gori and Tblisi.

As the Russian Representative droned on, I stopped listening and yelled at the screen "why won't you withdraw then?".

Sadly my friends it is indeed true that without an immediate withdrawal of the Russian troops, combined with real policing, rounding up and repatriating of the rampaging Ossetians, the russians words distinctly lack any credibility.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 08:23 PM

I'm currently watching RUSSIA TODAY - the English speaking russian news channel.

The official line, repeated again and again is that they are in Georgia on a humanitarian mission.

This conflicts in my view with the information on the BBC

The russian perspective is that America is using this situation to persuade europe that they need an anti missile defence system installed. Poland has apparently been given an anti missile capability.

Apparently they would be reporting from Tshkinvali, but there are Georgian snipers there taking pot shots so it is too dangerous.

They deny that there is any violence in Gori.

On the BBC, I have seen images of Russian soldiers wiping their feet with a Georgian flag.

There is much implied self congratulation for ending the violence in Tshkinvali.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 08:36 PM

"Poland has apparently been given an anti missile capability."

I believe this is a response by NATO to the Russian military invasion of the last few days. They want to show Russia that their actionswill not be wihout consequences. There is nothing built and no actual arms diliverd as this agreement was made today. If this is a wrong impression, I would like to know also.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 09:04 PM

I see my question about where the Chechens should go has not been answered.

If the idea is that they are out of place where they are because they are Muslims, that is not true. Many of the republics surrounding Chechnya also have a majority of Muslims. The fact is that there is no place on earth that has people who are more like the Chechens than the region in which they live.


Poland was already slated to have a missile defense system installed there, long before what just happened in Georgia and South Ossetia. A lot of Russia's behavior has been a response to this. They don't believe that it's purely defensive in nature and that it's not going to be aimed at them. They have good reason to believe this.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 09:47 PM

But if the Americans elect a Muslim president, Chechnya's troubles will be over.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 09:52 PM

America can't elect a Muslim president. No such person is running for office.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 11:56 PM

If McCain thought it would win it for him, he'd convert.

After all, for him its "Country First".


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 12:46 AM

I've been hearing that the stats indicate that Obama and McCain are in a dead heat right now.

I think the Russian sabre rattling (and not just sabres, and not just rattling) is good for McCain about now.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 05:17 AM

Re:   South Ossetia-Georgia (and probably quite a few other conflicts): A short quote from one of BB's posts tells the whole story:   "We must respond to provocations". As long as all sides seem to feel that way--and it seems they do now-- there will be no end to the problem.

But the fact remains that for the majority of South Ossetians, it's clear that Georgia, not Russia, is seen as the aggressor.   Drivel about the Sudetenland notwithstanding.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 05:46 AM

The current tensions between Russia and Georgia are only good for McCain to the extent he can disassociate himself from GWB---who has proven himself, as I noted earlier, to be the anti-TR.

And we've already discussed the worth of "stats".


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 05:57 AM

robomatic,

The poll numbers have not really moved.

It seems to me that the situation in Georgia poses as many problems for McCain as opportunities.

He talked about all his visits there and is joined at the hip with Georgia's chief lobbyist. On the other had he says the conflict was not foreseeable on the third hand he says he warned of it. He talks about banning Russia from the G8, but he doesn't and will never, even if the disaster of his Presidency should occur, have that power. He talks about NATO protection for Georgia but has no cards to play there. He talks about military response when the Iraq war has depleted US forces. It is difficult to see just what benefit we might gain from McCain's experience.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 06:13 AM

pdq

"I believe this is a response by NATO to the Russian military invasion of the last few days."

Exactly what I wrote. My whole sentence began with:

"The russian perspective is that America is using this situation to persuade europe that they need an anti missile defence system installed."

CarolC's post however seems to refute the whole idea.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 06:56 AM

What's this???

McAtheist is convertin' to Islam???

Wow!!! This ain't gonna help his chances of gettin' elected...

Has he changed his name yet??? Jaoni McAli has a nice ring to it... That oughtta get him some votes... Much better than McUgly, or McWar...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 08:30 AM

"CarolC's post however seems to refute the whole idea."

They usually do.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 08:55 AM

The conflict is not over oil. Georgia only has the pipeline run through it. The oilfields are in Azerbaijan, which has not been involved one bit in the conflict. Most of the oil is already controlled by BP.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 08:56 AM

Well, seein' as bb has no intention of answering my last question, which BTW was one of a series that was going to detroy the "offical" mythology/story of Gerogia's Misitry of Defense, I think we call all assume that anything we hear from Georgia cannot be taken as fact.

With that said, I do find it interesting that the Bush administration is using language that is clearly intended to inflame the tensions between the United States and Russia...

When I heard him talking about how bad Russia was for invading a sovergn nation all I could think of was Iraq...

But the most serious part of this is that these entire events, down to Operation Brimstone are nothin' but chess moves on Dick Cheney's ***World (oil) Domination Grand Chess Board***...

Makes me sick to see just how the media, just as they did in the mad-dash-to-Iraq, have taken the bait... There is way too much real information out there for them to just be agents of The Bush/Cheney/Rice War Machine!!!

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 09:22 AM

Some folks are forgetting that Georgia started this.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 09:33 AM

"It all started when he hit me back!"


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 10:04 AM

I really don't know where CarolC finds the spirit to keep trying to reason with utter morons. Loads of good stuff here from LH too, and a good post from Paul Burke (re the Kosovo precedent etc).

I likedbeardedbruce's reference to the insoucience of Europe towards its oil dependency. He probably thinks the US can survive on its indigenous reserves until alternatives come along. Fat chance of that, even after Alaska's been destroyed.

Best of all was Teribus sneering at Russia's concern to feel safe - just as details were being finalised for America to put missiles in Poland precisely to "feel safe." (JFK nearly started WW3 when the USSR tried that in Cuba, which is much farther from the US than Poland is from Russia.) That's been a long-established plan, as pdq may care to note, since he thinks it was dreamt up the other day. But then pdq knows that Iran is a nuclear power, or seeks to be, despite a report to the contrary from his own country's intelligence services. (OK, those intelligence services have been wrong before, and famously, but does pdq know better?)


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 11:47 AM

From 2005...

Star Wars in Poland


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 12:05 PM

I do agree, however, with the premise that the US is using this situation to persuade the rest of Europe to not stand in the way of the missile sites that the US and Poland have had planned for a long time.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Goose Gander
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 02:01 PM

Georgia invaded South Ossetia, and only then did Russia intervene. If you start a war, you don't get to decide how it ends. Just ask George W. Bush.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 02:52 PM

1. I only post when I get on the computer- Unlike Bobert, I do not assume that a lack of response is anything other than a lack of response.

2. The START of this is years ago- THIS engagement started with the claimed attack by South Ossetians on Georgian by artillary ( in spite of the mixed Ossetian/Georgian/Russian peacekeepers, who should have stopped this.) and the subsequent attack by Georgia on South Ossetia.

3. I note no comment here about the failure of the Russians to either control the South Ossetians, ot to withdraw from Georgian territory.

As for Lebenon, the parallel is that Hezboallah ( like the South Ossetians) attacked Isreal, who( , like Geogia) then invaded to put an end to the acts of warfare.

Russia is most certainly acting in what it considers it's best interests: If that is OK, why can't the US act in its own interests as well? Or do you all still demand that there be two standards, one for the US and allies, and another, looser one for the rest of the world?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 03:13 PM

I have not seen any evidence that the conflict started with South Ossetians firing on Georgians other than what Wikipeda says the government of Georgia has reported. The Government of Georgia has been preparing for an invasion of South Ossetia for a long time (since long before this summer). The South Ossetians themselves have been bracing for such an invasion for a long time.

This conflict has been ongoing since Georgia started it in 1991, and since then, it has always been Georgia's intention to finish it by invading and reoccupying South Ossetia.

If Georgia wants to end the conflict, it's going to have to stop waging war against South Ossetia and recognise it as an independent nation.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Goose Gander
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 03:17 PM

And why do 'US interests' always seem to lie on the other side of the globe? Georgia borders Russia, so Russian concern is understandable. Regarding who's to blame and whether one side is 'less guilty' than the other, I really don't have a dog in that fight. But US hypocrisy is astounding. What would be the response if San Diego County (for example) attempted to secede from the US and Russia backed the 'breakaway republic of san diego'?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 03:31 PM

By the way, the locations of the skirmishes that the government of Georgia is alleging happened in July in its timeline are in South Ossetia, not Georgia.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 03:38 PM

"By the way, the locations of the skirmishes that the government of Georgia is alleging happened in July in its timeline are in South Ossetia, not Georgia. "

Not entirely true, CarolC: The attacks that caused the Georgian invasion of South Ossetia DID occur in Georgian territory. I will have to check the earlier ones ( before the ceasefire by Georgia that South Ossetia violated)



"But years of negotiations with separatist leaders in Abkhazia and South Ossetia have proved fruitless. Saakashvili has offered those governments broad autonomy in exchange for allegiance to Georgia, but Abkhaz and South Ossetian leaders have insisted on full-scale independence or absorption into Russia.

Georgia's all-out assault on South Ossetia was preceded by attacks by Ossetian forces against Georgian troops earlier in the week, including a separatist ambush with rocket-propelled grenades on a Georgian armored personnel carrier that killed two soldiers and injured six, Georgian authorities said. On Thursday, a separatist mortar attack on the village of Avnevi killed eight Georgian civilians.

Thursday evening, Saakishvili called for a cease-fire and urged separatist leaders to resume talks on a peaceful settlement. But when separatists began shelling Georgian villages after Saakashvili's cease-fire call, Georgian leaders decided to move ahead with the assault.

"Separatists opened fire in response to yesterday's peaceful initiative of the president of Georgia," said Georgian Prime Minister Lado Gurgenidze in a televised address. "As a result, lives of civilians were under threat."


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-080808-georgia-ossetia-webaug09,0,4176197.story


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 03:44 PM

The South Ossetian Press and Information Committee reported that a South Ossetian militiaman had been killed and another injured in an attack on a police post in the village of Ubia and this was followed by the shelling of Tskhinvali, which resulted in the death of one man. The shelling involved the use of mortars and grenade launchers, they said. Georgia claimed it had opened fire in response to the shelling by South Ossetian militiamen of Georgian-controlled villages.

The Georgian Ministry of Defense said on July 7, 2008 a group of up to ten militiamen were apparently prevented from placing mines on a Georgian-controlled by-pass road linking the Georgian villages in the north of Tskhinvali with the rest of Georgia. The Georgian side opened fire and the group was forced to retreat towards the nearby South Ossetian-controlled village

According to media reports, on July 19, 2008 a Georgian police post was attacked by Abkhaz militias using grenades, one of the militiamen died from a grenade exploding accidentally. Abkhaz officials condemned the reports as false.[99]

On July 29, 2008 South Ossetia said two South Ossetian villages had been fired on by Georgian forces in response to South Ossetia reinforcing its positions on the perimeter of the conflict zone.[104] Georgia said the same day that Georgian posts on the Sarabuki heights were attacked by South Ossetian forces with no injuries reported.[103]


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 03:48 PM

"The Government of Georgia has been preparing for an invasion of South Ossetia for a long time..."

This is getting to be just plain silly. South Ossetia is part of Georgia and has been since 1991 after Russian and Georgian leaders negotiated the current boundries. Not one international body, including the UN, recognizes the South Ossetian claim of independence, and no rational peolple consider it a part of Russia. It belongs to Georgia just as San Diego County belongs to the United States.

Perhaps the unhappier folks in South Ossetia will pick up and got to Russia to live. I'm sure there will be plenty of their relatives will want to stay and the area will be much the better for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 04:04 PM

South Ossetia considers itself an independent country. Nobody in the world has a right to tell them otherwise.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 04:09 PM

On July 29, 2008 South Ossetia said two South Ossetian villages had been fired on by Georgian forces in response to South Ossetia reinforcing its positions on the perimeter of the conflict zone

As we can see, Georgia has been firing on South Ossetians even in the absence of any attacks coming from South Ossetians. Georgia's bombing and invasion of South Ossetia had notthing whatever to do with any skirmishes instigated by South Ossetians or anyone else. Georgia bombed and invaded South Ossetia for no other reason than because it wants to force South Ossetia to be reabsorbed back into Georgia. And any and all violence by South Ossetians has been in response to these efforts by Georgia. This makes Georgia the aggressor.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 04:16 PM

1.
"Georgia said the same day that Georgian posts on the Sarabuki heights were attacked by South Ossetian forces with no injuries reported.[103]"


2."Georgia bombed and invaded South Ossetia for no other reason than because it wants to force South Ossetia to be reabsorbed back into Georgia." = A judgement made by you without substantiation. I read that Georgia was tired of being attacked by the South Ossetian sepratists, even afetr various ceasefires, and was trying to show them that they should not blow up Georgians. Just as valid as your claim, and a lot closer to the stated facts by BOTH sides.


3/"And any and all violence by South Ossetians has been in response to these efforts by Georgia."

A false claim, as several of the attacks on Georgia are claimed to be AFTER cease-fires were in place- the South Ossetians DID NOT WANT a peaceful resolution.

I will state that "Any and all violence by Georgians has been in response to these efforts by South Ossetians to violently leave the state of Georgia." This is obviously as true as your claim, perhaps more so.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 04:18 PM

Georgia reports Shootout in S.Ossetia

Civil Georgia, Tbilisi / 29 Jul.'08 / 09:56
   

Georgian posts in the South Ossetian conflict zone came under fire from South Ossetian militias overnight and early on July 29, Rustavi 2 TV and the Georgian Public Broadcaster reported.

According to the reports, posts located on the Sarabuki heights were attacked. No one was injured, the reports said. The South Ossetian side has yet to comment.

A group of officials from the Georgian Ministry of Defense, including Deputy Minister Ramaz Nikolaishvili, visited the conflict zone on July 28. The Georgian MoD reported that the delegation also visited, as it put it, "the strategic height" of Sarabuki and placed the Georgian national flag there.

In a separate incident, the Russian command of the Joint Peacekeeping Forces stationed in the conflict zone said late on July 28 that South Ossetian militiamen had prevented peacekeepers and OSCE observers from monitoring the village of Cholibauri. The Georgian side has claimed that South Ossetian militiamen are setting up military fortifications in an area close to the village.

"They [the South Ossetian militiamen] threatened us at gunpoint and even fired several shots into the air over the observers' heads," Interfax and RIA Novosti news agencies quoted Vladimir Ivanov, a spokesman for the Russian peacekeepers in the conflict zone, as saying late on July 28. "Such actions fuel tensions in the conflict zone."


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 04:26 PM

The BBC showed footage the other night which they filmed a couple of weeks ago that they said was filmed by one of their crews and which they claimed depicted russian backed south ossetian seperatists attacking georgian targets in georgia.

To what extent is the "popular" uprising of the russian backed seperatists comparable to the "popular" uprising of the Contras in Nicaragua.

Is Russia deliberately trying to destabilize Georgia to effect a regime change in Georgia as Sakashvili claims?

Is the whole Contra thing the reason why America has been so quick to deduce the russians motives?

Is it a case of the pot calling the kettle black, or worse, is it a case of the Americans projecting their own guilt onto Russia?

Russian propaganda ... er ... news ... gives such a different picture to the news agencies that I trust that I have to consider that they do indeed have something to hide.

There simply isn't the same honest media scrutiny that we enjoy in the UK.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 04:42 PM

Ummmmmm, what would Russia's motive be here, folks??? I mean, lets get real... Russsia needs another Cheknya like the US needs another Iraq... If anything, Russia has been suckered into this by the US and their CIA puppet in Georgia... Russia has everything to loose... Especially now with Russia enjoying all these oil profits...

Maybe this is why Putin very angerily waged his finger at Bush at the Olympics after getting a call informing him of the attacks...

Russia nas been sucker punched by Cheney and Putin is gonna be one pissed off guy for a long time over it... And I don't blame him... And big moth John McCain, whould he be elected, won't be able to fix nuthin' because he had to use his Georgian lobbiest to turn this into a big ol' fashion circle jerk of a PR campaign...

One more reason to not vote for John McCain unless you want 4 more years of lousy US/Russian relations...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 04:46 PM

Bobert,

You state:
"Ummmmmm, what would Russia's motive be here, folks??? "


Do you ever bother to read anything? There have been a number of posts about what Russia stands to gain by this. If you truely believe what you have stated, you disappoint me greatly. Those NASCAR fans you wanted to disenfranchise have a better grasp of international politics than you have shown.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 04:53 PM

I think I am becoming more entrenched in my suspicion of Putin.

However, now that i look at the Americans a bit more closely, they are coming across as though they are revelling in their righteousness.

They don't seem to be engaging the Russians on the question of Georgia's irresponsibility but are stuck in a groove blaming russia.

Again though, I find myself returning to the pictures of the south ossetian forces currently in Georgia laying waste to those around them whilst under the protection of the russian peacekeepers.

I don't see how allowing that has anything to do with humanitarianism or peacekeeping or russian responses to georgian aggression against ossetians.

Why are the russians giving tacit licence to the south ossetian seperatists to murder and destroy in georgia?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 04:55 PM

...there should be no doubt that Abkhazia must be regained and that Georgia's territorial integrity must be restored. Georgia will be completely free only when the most beautiful flag in the world, the five-star flag, flies at the (*1) Roki tunnel and on the (*2) Psou.

--Mikheil Saakashvili, November 22, 2004


*1 The Roki tunnel crosses the border between South Ossetia and Russia.

*2 The Psou River is forms the border between Abkhazia and Russia.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 04:59 PM

For the record,

I would trust Obama to be a million times more resourceful, more intelligent, and more competent to deal with this situation than McCain.

I think politics is indeed a game of chess and that is unavoidable as if you aren't playing it you'll be beaten by someone who is.

I believe that Obama would be a subtler and more effective player.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 04:59 PM

Russia's Ominous New Doctrine?

By Strobe Talbott
Friday, August 15, 2008; Page A21

Russia has been justifying its rampage through Georgia as a "peacekeeping" operation to end the Tbilisi government's "genocide" and "ethnic cleansing" of South Ossetia. That terminology deliberately echoes U.S. and NATO language during their 1999 bombing campaign against Serbia, which resulted in the independence of Kosovo. Essentially, it's payback time for a grievance that Russia has borne against the West for nine years. The Russians are relying on the conceit that Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili is today's equivalent of Slobodan Milosevic, and that the South Ossetians are (or were until their rescue by the latter-day Red Army last week) being victimized by Tbilisi the way the Kosovar Albanians suffered under Belgrade.

This analogy turns reality, and history, upside down. Only after exhausting every attempt at diplomacy did NATO go to war over Kosovo. It did so because the formerly "autonomous" province of Serbia was under the heel of Belgrade and the Milosevic regime was running amok there, killing ethnic Albanians and throwing them out of their homes. By contrast, South Ossetia -- even though it is on Georgian territory -- has long been a Russian protectorate, beyond the reach of Saakashvili's government.

An accurate comparison between the Balkan disasters of the 1990s and the one now playing out in the Caucasus underscores what is most ominous about current Russian policy. Seventeen years ago, the Soviet Union came apart at the seams more or less peacefully. That was overwhelmingly because Boris Yeltsin insisted on converting the old inter-republic boundaries into new international ones. In doing so, he kept in check the forces of revanchism among communists and nationalists in the Russian parliament (which went by the appropriately atavistic name "the Supreme Soviet").

Meanwhile, Yugoslavia collapsed into bloody chaos because its leaders engaged in an ethnically and religiously based land-grab. Milosevic, as the best-armed of the lot, tried to carve a "Greater Serbia" out of the flanks of Bosnia and Croatia. If Yeltsin had gone that route, seeking to create a Greater Russia that incorporated Belarus and the parts of Ukraine, northern Kazakhstan and the Baltic states populated by Russian speakers, there could have been conflict across 11 time zones with tens of thousands of nuclear weapons in the mix.

A question that looms large in the wake of the past week is whether Russian policy has changed with regard to the permanence of borders. That seemed to be what Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov was hinting yesterday when he said, "You can forget about any discussion of Georgia's territorial integrity." He ridiculed "the logic of forcing South Ossetia and Abkhazia to return to being part of the Georgian state."

Lavrov is a careful and experienced diplomat, not given to shooting off his mouth. That makes his comments all the more unsettling. If he has given the world a glimpse of the Russian endgame, it's dangerous in its own right and in the precedent it would set. South Ossetia and Abkhazia might be set up as supposedly independent countries ("just like Kosovo," the Russians would say) -- but would in fact be satrapies of Russia. While Russia might see that outcome as proof of its comeback as a major power, the Balkanization of the Caucasus may not end there: Chechnya is just one of several regions on Russian territory that are seething with resentment against the Kremlin and that might hanker after a version of independence far less to Moscow's liking than what may be contemplated for Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

Among Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice's important tasks in the days ahead is to get clarity on whether a Lavrov doctrine has replaced the Yeltsin one of 16 years ago. If so, big trouble looms -- including for Russia. Moscow's action and rhetoric of the past week have highlighted yet another, potentially more consequential respect in which this episode could bode ill for all concerned. For the Bush administration -- and those of Bill Clinton and George H.W. Bush as well -- the fundamental premise of American policy has been that Russia has put its Soviet past behind it and is committed, eventually, to integrating itself into Europe and the political, economic and ideological (as opposed to the geographical) "West."

Prominent Russians have said as much. In one of my first meetings with Vladimir Putin, before he became president, he spoke of his country's zapadnichestvo, its Western vocation. Yet it now appears that beyond the undisguised animosity that Putin bears toward Saakashvili, he and his government regard Georgia's pro-Western bent and its aspiration to join two Western institutions, NATO and the European Union, as, literally, a casus belli. If that is the case, the next U.S. administration -- the fourth to deal with post-Soviet Russia -- will have to reexamine the underlying basis for the whole idea of partnership with that country and its continuing integration into a rule-based international community.

The writer is president of the Brookings Institution and was deputy secretary of state in the Clinton administration.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 04:59 PM

My own opinion is that Russia is doing it to show Georgia (and its puppet master, the US) that Georgia is going to have to relinquish any claim on South Ossetia and Abkhazia whether it wants to or not. I think it is doing it to pressure Georgia to sign a non use of force agreement.

If Georgia can throw its weight around and force South Ossetia to do its bidding (killing many civilians in the process), it seems to me that Georgia is not in a position to complain if someone else does the same thing to it.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 05:04 PM

Saakashvili is not speaking like a true conqueror. Shame! No wonder his invasion plans in South Ossetia went awry. He should have said "Georgia will be completely free only when the most beautiful flag in the world, the five-star flag, flies over Moscow, Vienna, Dresden, and Paris!" You can't win total hegemony for the most beautiful flag in the world with feeble half-measures. George "It's all the way to Baghdad!" Bush could have told him that.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 05:07 PM

lox...

There are genuine members of the Russian Army in S. Ossetia (a part of Georgia) right now, but there are also paid mercenaries as well as volunteers from various areas. Those who don't wear a Russian uniform but kill people are probably mercenaries being protected by the Russian Army as the former do the "dirty work". The volunteers seem to be unpaid folks who either have a grudge to settle or just want to be able to kill people.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 05:13 PM

And the russian Media is romanticising the whole campaign and glorifying it with slow moving music on news reports which, as we have seen in Ireland amongst other places, can make ordinary murderers feel and appear like warrior poets.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 05:14 PM

"Essentially, it's payback time for a grievance that Russia has borne against the West for nine years."

Exactly. And a legitimate grievance, in my opinion...but it goes back a lot further than nine years. It goes all the way back to the breakup of the Soviet Union in 1989 and the subsequent dismembering of most of their border regions and the devastation of their domestic economy, indeed the devastation of the fabric of their entire society.

If you were Russian, BB, you would most likely understand that it's a legitimate grievance.

The West has been throwing its weight around in an arrogant manner for decades now, subverting various cultures through economic and political manipulation, bombing invading small countries at its whim, and attempting to control all the oil in the world...confident that no one could stop them.

The Russians are now saying, "Enough. We draw the line here."

You would say exactly the same thing were you in their position.

You have your interests at heart. They have theirs. They are human too.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 05:21 PM

LH,

Thing is that Russians are doing it in a hamfisted neanderthal way.

The global partnership that the US speaks of is in fact the diplomatic battlefield where the nations of today fight their battles without suffering damage to their people, infrastructure or reputation.

America is right that Russia has taken a step backwards and in the process undermined her standing on the world stage.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 05:27 PM

"Russians are doing it in a hamfisted neanderthal way."

Agreed. Perhaps they are trying to imitate George Bush? ;-)

The USA has been clearly giving the world the message since 2001 that might is right and that he with the largest military in the world is absolutely free to attack whom he wants when he wants, regardless of legality, regardless of what the U.N. has to say about it, and even upon wholly spurious excuses (like WMDs that don't exist). Furthermore, he with the largest military has the right to torture prisoners and hold them in offshore facilities without trial or legal representation.

I'm sure Russia has learned a lot from watching the Bush administration's gentle approach to diplomacy in these last 7 years. (sarcasm)


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 05:33 PM

"My own opinion is that Russia is doing it to show Georgia (and its puppet master, the US) that Georgia is going to have to relinquish any claim on South Ossetia and Abkhazia whether it wants to or not. I think it is doing it to pressure Georgia to sign a non use of force agreement."

No, they are really doing it to show Georgia that they can't follow policies which Russia doesn't approve of.
S. Ossetia and Abkhazia are mere examples of that.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 05:36 PM

Yes - and it makes me a bit sick to see Bush and Rice enjoying their new found status as courageous diplomats.

America is being slightly less hamfisted.

I heard one US representative say scathingly " Russia is nothing ... it's saudi with trees" as a way of explaining why they would have no chance in a diplomatic struggle against America.

I believe Obama might be so much less hamfisted as to be considered Graceful.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 05:46 PM

I have to say that I also find carols point interesting regarding the need for a georgian non aggression pledge.

There seems to me to be no harm in the georgians agreeing not to attack Ossetia or Abkhazia again.

Nor does there seem to be any harm in Georgia accepting that the sovereignty of Ossettia and Abkhazia and their respective desires for self determination deserve to be given due attention and scrutiny.

Perhaps it is right and proper that Georgia accepts their right to coexist as independant political states.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 06:33 PM

The US isn't being less hamfisted. It's just being a lot more covert in its hamfistedness. Any rhetoric on the part of the US government about "global partnership" is just a cover for what is really being done, which is the US attempting to bend the entire world to its will whether the rest of the world likes it or not.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 06:45 PM

Ssaakashvili sounded quite unhinged as he ranted today. Even Condi, standing beside him, had the grace to look a bit uncomfortable.

Thanks for the Strobe Talbot cut & paste, beardedbruce. I thought such lengthy clippings were discouraged in the non-music threads but it is a useful pointer to who does your thinking.

The US admin line on Kosovo, parroted by Talbot, has always been a travesty.

First there was no genocide inflicted on the Albanian muslims. Remember those figures that were being bandied around at the time? The US state department was talking about 250,000 dead Albanians IIRC, and the UK foreign secretary (Robin Cooke) used a more conservative figure of 150,000. So far about 3,000 bodies have been found, most of them Serbs.)

Second the Albanian muslims (in the main, refugees and economic migrants who got out of Albania proper in the Hoxhe years and earlier) had discriminated against the indigenous Serbs for years.

Third, all that stuff about Milosevic withdrawinig Kosovo autonomy is blatant hypocrisy. Tito granted it in 1974 - yes, the guy was human and made some mistakes. When Milosevic withdrew it, the IMF and the World Bank were delighted because they wanted to see strong central government. Can you imagine how the US admin would function if California, for instance, had a veto on federal policy-making?

Pdq, try applying your South Ossetia and San Diego logic to Kosovo. Russia, along with Spain and others, warned that sovereignty for Kosovo would open a can of worms. Now a chicken has come home to roost. And this time, joy of joys, there's fuck all that Uncle Sam can do about it except huff and puff.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 07:04 PM

Some historical perspective...


"Up until now, this war was framed as a simple tale of Good Helpless Democratic Guy Georgia versus Bad Savage Fascist Guy Russia. In fact, it is far more complex than this, morally and historically. Then there are two concentric David and Goliath narratives here. The initial war pitted the Goliath Georgia--a nation of 4.4 million, with vastly superior numbers, equipment and training thanks to US and Israeli advisers--against David-Ossetia, with a population of between 50,000-70,000 and a local militia force that is barely battalion strength. Reports coming out of South Ossetia tell of Georgian rockets and artillery leveling every building in the capital city, Tskhinvali, and of Georgian troops lobbing grenades into bomb shelters and basements sheltering women and children. Although true casualty figures are hard to come by, reports that up to 2,000 Ossetians, mostly civilians, were killed are certainly believable, given the intensity of the initial Georgian bombardment, the wanton destruction of the city and surrounding regions and the generally savage nature of Caucasus warfare, a very personal game where old rules apply.

But you don't hear about this story from the Western media. Indeed, you hear little if anything about the Ossetians, who seem to hardly exist in the West's eyes, even though their grievance is the root cause of this war.

While Russia and America see the conflict in abstract terms about spheres of influence and protecting allies, for Ossetians, who still recall the centuries of massacres Georgians committed against them, it is highly personal. They will still recall the Georgian massacres in the early 1920s, when Georgia was briefly independent, which exterminated up to 8 percent of the Ossetian population. In 1990, when Georgia was again moving towards independence, the ultranationalist leader Zviad Gamsakhurdia abolished Ossetia's limited autonomy, leading to another Ossetian rebellion that was only quelled by a peace agreement signed by Georgia, Russia and the Ossetians. Gamsakhurdia was subsequently deposed, and Georgia's ethnic chauvinism was shelved until the rise of current president Mikhail Saakashvili in 2003."


http://mobile.thenation.com/docmobile.mhtml?i=20080818&s=ames2


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 07:10 PM

so did the chicken come home to roost in the can of worms? ...

Sorry ... I never was much good at politics ;-)

but seriously ...

I see partnership as meaning "don't buy a gun, get a lawyer!"


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 07:14 PM

Partnership with the US means get a gun and use it on whoever we tell you to.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 07:15 PM

Interesting article Carol.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 07:32 PM

I'm not sure I agree with your last statement on partnership.

I think that neo-condoleezas words can be turned back on her.

I think the US needs the cooperation of the other G8 countries and wider international cooperation as much as russia does to function on the global chessboard/marketplace.

America can no longer afford to isolate itself either.

Especially now that europe is staarting to grow significantly in strength.

At the end of the next recession Europe will be seen to have weathered the storm the best and that includes countries like poland and the other old soviet block countries who will suddenly be in undreamed of positions of influence.

America and russia both require a strong partnership with Europe, as Europe does with them. Not to mention China.

There is an American tendancy sometimes, when criticizing themselves, to remain nonetheless in a self aggrandizing mindset.

This isn't all about US foreign policy, it is about Diplomatic jostling on the great global chessboard.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 07:37 PM

I don't disagree with any of that. I was just giving the meaning of partnership with the US from the perspective of the current (and some former) administrations.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 07:49 PM

Just look at how smug and pleased with himself that yucky little Sarkozy is that he got to be the most important boy in assembly.

Gordon Brown and David Cameron are both looking on in envy.

And of course David Cameron is showing that he can talk tough too (puke)

Like a litle annoying terrier barking more aggressively so the other dogs might take him seriously.

We must apparently fasttrack Georgia's entry into NATO ...

... yes david ... that'll solve the problem ...


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 07:50 PM

This, as with all recent wars, is not about ideologies per se. It is about money and who will control what aspect of the money market. Note the singular--market.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 08:06 PM

Bruce,

I started to read you first sorce and found lies right there in the first sentence...

You, my friend, are doing nothin' in the interent in truth... What you are doing is spreading propaganda...

All of a sudden Putin is the Devil???

Yeah, Bush and Cheney do love their boogie men...

Give us a break... Most intellegent people don't hacve to read thru reems and reems of propaganda to know which way the wind blows...

This war was started by the Unitied States and their puppets... That is the truth... Unless you can get that far then you are out of the intellegent discussion on why the US did it and what they must now do to fix it... Other than blow smoke up the posteriors of true believers...

B~

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 08:21 PM

Peter K (Fionn),

Why do you expect an argument? I agree with everything you said about Kosovo and our betrayal of our Serbian allies. That was a monstrous crime by Madeleine Halfbright and "Worthless Willie" Clinton, our second worst president ever. When the news media said that a mass grave with 700 slaughtered innocent Kosovar Muslims was found which later proves to be 5 dead bodies, unidentifiable and probably Serb, the news media had an obligation to correct their disinformation. They did not.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 08:45 PM

"That was a monstrous crime by Madeleine Halfbright and "Worthless Willie" Clinton, our second worst president ever."

That's true, pdq, in my opinion. It was a monstrous crime. But I am sort of getting the impression that you always see these things primarily along old party lines that you are traditionally loyal to, regardless of the real circumstance.

In other words, when a Democratic administration does it, it's terrible. But when a Republican administration does it, well, then it's probably justifiable...and when a US ally (Georgia) does it, well then, it's even more justifiable. But when Russia does it! Then it's absolutely despicable...

I think you're having trouble being objective about certain war crimes and war criminals, because your own political loyalties are getting in the way of your ability to recognize them.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 08:53 PM

Yeah, we've hade 30 years of anti-human foriegn policies... This ain't about Dems or Repubs... It's failed vision stuck in a hampster wheel... We need a paradyme change which is not realted to political parties but founded on pro-human, pro-earth thinking and not US always getting our way...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 08:57 PM

Serbia, Allies?

Since when?

Haven't they always been close to the Russians?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 09:03 PM

Yes, Jack, they have, as a matter of fact.

They fought the Germans in WWII, while the Catholic Croatians mostly were allied with the Germans against the Serbs. After the war, the whole area of what was called Yugoslavia aligned itself closely with the Soviets, but maintained political autonomy.

As soon as Yugoslavia broke up after Tito's death the West began playing the usual "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" games that all powers great and small always play, and the Serbs became the odd man out in that game as wars broke out between Serbs, Croatians, Bosnians, etc. Russia tended to favor the Serbs in those conflicts, the West tended to side against them.

Many wrongs were committed on all sides.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 09:21 PM

Liberal Squawk,

No, you are the one stuck on party line platitudes. My opinions are as diverse as anyone on Mudcat since I try to find facts. That is something that people with a science background must do. Philosophy majors believe that "truth" is on the side of the one who can use tha best wordplay and win an argument. They make good lawyers.

Albania stealing Kosovo from the rightful owner, Serbia, is equivalent to Russia stealing South Ossetia from the rightful owner, Georgia. Unhappy inhabitants who were given Russian citizenship should move to Russia.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 09:37 PM

Methinks LH, ye have hit a nerve. It is rare to see such a sharp scientific mind reduced to name calling.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 09:40 PM

"Serbia, Allies?

Since when?

Haven't they always been close to the Russians?" ~ JtS

Well, the United States helped Russia any way it could to defeat Nazi Germany. Serbia was the only Balkan country allied us. The Shah of Iran was a very important ally, his country having a huge border with Russia and warm water ports. The supply route that allowed Russia to defeat Germany went through Iran. Yes, Iran, Serbia, Russia and the United States were allies and essential in winning WWII in Europe.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 09:42 PM

Ossetians are the rightful owner of South Ossetia. It has been their territory for many hundreds of years. Georgia forcing South Ossetia to be a part of Georgia would be like Russia forcing Georgia to be a part of Russia.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 09:42 PM

Its also rare to see a "sharp scientific mind" supporting the neocons, Jack!


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 09:46 PM

LOL akenaton

Is this conversation is starting to border on the oxymoronic?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 10:23 PM

"Albania stealing Kosovo from the rightful owner, Serbia, is equivalent to Russia stealing South Ossetia from the rightful owner, Georgia. Unhappy inhabitants who were given Russian citizenship should move to Russia."


                      pdq - I remember trying to make this point in a previous thread and was shouted off the internet.

                      I think the Kosovo example was even more sinister in that a huge number of Albanians moved to Kosovo for the specific purpose of wresting it away from Serbia.
                      When Serbia tried to chase the Albanians out, Bill Clinton, desparately needing an international event to change the dialogue in the American press, jumped in on the side of Albania. The rest is...


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 10:26 PM

mystery.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 10:47 PM

...in fact!


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 10:51 PM

Interesting to read this thread because what should be a simple matter of fact is resurrected as fact influenced by interpretation tinged with political 'view point' (read bias). And yes, I'm as guilty as the rest.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 11:04 PM

I suppose these things would be easy if somebody was 100% right, and the other party was 100% wrong, but...


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 11:30 PM

Rig, that promise is the entire appeal of the republican party.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 11:43 PM

I definitely have a bias. I always come down on the side of the people who are fighting for their freedom, and against those who seek to subjugate them.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 11:53 PM

And you do it well, Carol. Based on your view.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 01:08 AM

Okay, pdq, if you are gonna call me "Liberal Squawk", then I shall have to come up with a catchy nickname for you also. ;-) I'm thinkin'...

plainly demented qualifier...

partially dessicated quim...

pathetically deranged questioner...

perpendicularly delineated quartermaster...

Hmmm. Or how about something simple like...

"pigs don't quack"

I think Clinton was in the wrong. I think Bush is in the wrong. I think Georgia is in the wrong. And I think you're wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 01:09 AM

"Rig, that promise is the entire appeal of the republican party."


                Tina Turner would say: "What's the Republican Party got to do with it?"


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 01:15 AM

I now understand what Bob meant when he said

"Oh God said to abraham kill me a son
Abe said man you must be puttin me on
God said no, abe said what
God say you can do what you wanna but
The next time you see me comin you better run
Well abe said where dyou want this killin done
God said out on highway 61
Well georgia sam he had a bloody nose
Welfare department wouldnt give him no clothes
They asked poor howard where can I go
Howard said theres only one place I know
Sam said tell me quick man I got to run
Oh howard just pointed with his gun
And said that way down highway 61
Well mack the finger said to louie the king
i got 40 red white and blue shoestrings
And a thousand telephone that dont ring.
Do you know where I can get rid of these things?
And louie the king said let me think for a minute son
Then he said yes I think it can be easily done
Just take everything down to highway 61
Now the 5th daughter on the 12th night
Told the first father that things werent right
my complexion, she says, is much too white
He said come here and step into the light
He said hmm youre right let me tell the 2nd mother this has been done
But the 2nd mother was with the 7th son
And they were both out on highway 61
Now the roving gambler he was very bored
Trying to create a next world war
He found a promoter who nearly fell off the floor
He said i never engaged in this kind of thing before
But yes, i think it can be very easily done
Well just put some bleachers out in the sun
And have it on highway 61"


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 01:29 AM

Yeah.

But do you understand what the song "Angelina" is about? Not "Farewell Angelina". Just "Angelina".


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 01:38 AM

In so far as it is echoed in "Every Grain of Sand", yes.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 01:44 AM

Here's another excerpt from the article I posted earlier that I think bears reading...

"The question we must ask is: Are we willing to risk war, including nuclear holocaust, in order to fulfill the aspirations of Mikhail Saakashvili? While Bush and McCain speak of Saakashvili as if he's a combination of Thomas Jefferson and Nelson Mandela, he's seen by his own people as increasingly authoritarian and unbalanced. Last year, Saakashvili sent in his special forces to violently disperse opposition protesters in the capital city, followed by a declaration of martial law. He sacked the opposition television station (partly owned by Rupert Murdoch), exiled or jailed his political opponents, and stacked the courts with his own judges while removing neutral observers, leaving even onetime neocon cheerleaders like Bruce Jackson and Anne Applebaum feeling queasy. Hardly the image of the "small democratic nation" that everyone today touts."


Hell, the US government and media tried to tear Hugo Chavez a new one just for not renewing the license of one of the TV stations in his country, and here we are propping up a guy who sacked the opposition TV station and exiled or jailed his political opponents.

In what way is this guy different from Putin? (Oh, yeah... he's willing to be our puppet.)


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 01:53 AM

Saakashvili is purported to have won the election with 98% of the popular vote. I believe that. Right. Much like I believe that Hussein won with 100%. And Castro. And Stalin.

Democracy my ass. He's another fu#kin' dictator. But in this case, he's a dictator who is in Bush and Cheney's pocket.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 02:23 AM

"Massive amounts of infrastructure will need to be rebuilt. Prices have already gone up significantly over the past two years, and inflation will likely increase as a result of the war."


Tell me, doesn't this sound like a job for










no, not Superman







no, not Batman and Robin







no not Spiderman









no, not Superwoman








but







bot









a Halliburton subsidiary?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 02:25 AM

Sorry. Was having a case of Deja Vu,


all over again!


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 06:18 PM

Oh, sorry odq. I just assumed. My apologies.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 06:24 PM

Er, pdq


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 06:38 PM

Peter K (Fionn),

Thank you for returning and reading my clarification.

BTW, if the US continues to have such an inconsistent foreign policy, we will gradually lose our alies because they will not trust us. Many need military and economic support and often get a lecture in "human rights" instead. It is quite difficult to insure everybody's "human rights" when your country isbeing invaded or your children are being killed in bomb attacks on their way to grade school.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 06:51 PM

>>>BTW, if the US continues to have such an inconsistent foreign policy, we will gradually lose our alies because they will not trust us. Many need military and economic support and often get a lecture in "human rights" instead. It is quite difficult to insure everybody's "human rights" when your country isbeing invaded or your children are being killed in bomb attacks on their way to grade school.

Amen to that.

With reference to the current situation in Georgia; Bush has been Promising them NATO membership; McCain is threatening to drop Russia from the G8. The President of the US, especially a presumptuous nominee such as McCain, has the authority to do neither. So these promises and threats are causing a lot of consternation among America's best allies.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 07:00 PM

I think our foreign policy is perfectly consistent. Any country that the US sees as being a threat to our hegemony is our enemy. Anyone who is a friend of our enemy is our enemy. Serbia was a friend of Russia, and therefore our enemy. Anyone who is an enemy of our enemy is our friend. Georgia is an enemy of Russia, so they are our friend. It's as consistent and as predictable as it could possibly be.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 07:02 PM

"we will gradually lose our alies because they will not trust us."

Huh????? Fer Chrissake, they don't trust you now! ;-D (Except maybe for Israel.) The USA is one of the least trusted nations in the world, and I mean just about everywhere. Your allies are not allies out of a sense of trust, pdq, they are allies due to various almost inextricable financial and business ties that have been around ever since the end of WWII, if not longer. It's sheer pragmatism and the weight of the status quo, not trust.

Nor, of course, do they trust Russia. Nobody has much reason to trust either the USA or Russia.

Nobody trusted the Romans either...for the same reason. They were not trustworthy.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 04:35 AM

I'm begining to feel quite optimistic about this forum.
I sense a new confidence from the old much maligned rebels.


"Mighty oaks from little acorns grow." Maybe its just coincidence but whenever Peter turns up we become "inspired"....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 08:31 AM

"Fer Chrissake, they don't trust you now! ;-D (Except maybe for Israel.)"


                  Weren't the last few moles unearthed in the CIA working for Israel?


                  And I think you're right about Serbia, Carol, their biggest problem was they just happened to be in the wrong place at the right time for Bill Clinton and NATO.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 10:17 AM

Until Jimmy Carter's presidency, we (the US) were strongly allied with Turkey, Iran, Saudia Arabia, Lebanon and Israel. Three different religions and lots of animosity between them, but all good friends to us.

We most certainly could be allied with Serbia (and Croatia) after the breakup of the old Yugoslavia, and still be at odds with Russia and their tendency for expansionism. For someone to put out the simplistic statement "Anyone who is an enemy of our enemy is our friend." and suggest that is the depth and breadth of the US foreign policy does not deserve to be given the time of day.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 10:42 AM

Have we all concluded that Bush done it yet?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 10:45 AM

Yes. He did it in the library with a candlestick!


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 12:48 PM

. . . and seven people here offered to light it for him.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 01:00 PM

Iran wasn't our friend. The Shah was our friend. Clearly much of Iran didn't appreciate our meddling in that country, and that's why the Shah was chased out of there. Iran could have been our friend had we not crushed their fledgling democracy because of oil and had we not propped up the despotic Shah.

And while my synopsis of our foreign relations looks simplistic because it didn't take very many words to communicate it, it's not at all simplistic when one examines the particulars of how we go about it.

But it's still entirely about empire and not wanting to allow the existence of any other superpowers that could challenge our hegemony.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 01:51 PM

Okay, pdq, fine then...Israel doesn't trust you either. ;-)

By the way, have you got the time?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 05:17 PM

Pdq,

I think there make be some confusion. I don't doubt that we could be allies with Serbia. I simply question that we are or recently have been.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 06:35 PM

Bill Clinton authorized NATO forces to bomb Serbia back to the Srone Age if they tried to stop Kosovo from being taken away by Albanians. Madeleine Albright was the architect of the plan. We blasted our friend Serbia with more ordinance (including most of our depleted Uranium on hand at the time) than George Bush (#41) used to win the Gulf War (1991). They are not our friends anymore. Oh, let's not forget that no UN resolution was voted on authorizing this attack. There was also no vote in the US Congress. The 2003 Iraq conflict (see George W. Bush, #43), on the other hand, had numerous UN-voted mandates starting in 1990 and a very specific approval by the US Congress, in addition to a voted general approval fthrough the War on Terrorism vote in OCT 2001.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 06:41 PM

How was Serbia our friend? They came out of the collapse of communism as and authoritarians, suppressing other ethnic groups with close ties to Russia.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 07:21 PM

Why is it that you can clearly recognize American aggression against Serbia but not against Iraq, pdq? Might it have something to do with your partisan viewpoint?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 07:28 PM

The best way to have handled Iraq would have been to kill Hussein. One against tens of thousands. He deserved a bullet in the brain anyway due to what he ordered be done to the Kurds. But war generates lotsa dollars--just ask Mr Halliburton and the folks in the arms industry. But folks get all fuzzy when they have to think of that instaed of war. Retail killing as opposed to wholesale
slaughter. Besides, if some leaders started thinking that way, the arms manufactureres would apply the logic to them.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 07:32 PM

Get enough folks to say, "I'll be right behind you Bush (or Putin or whatever other warmongers you care to name)" and war would freakin' well end soon enough. imo


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 07:35 PM

But, hey, man...Saddam Hussein was an American ally when he was killing Iranians. Remember? He was "our boy in Baghdad".

Sort of like Noriega. He was an American ally for many years too.

Oh, and Osama Bin Laden used to work in harmony with the CIA to kill Russians in Afghanistan.

I see a common thread running through all of this.


You are quite right that a war suits the arms industry far better than an assassination of one man does.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 07:40 PM

Yes, and it doesn't seem to matter which country is on who's side. Whatever it takes to start the bullets flying seems to be perfectly acceptable to the arms industry, where ever you find it.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 08:05 PM

Iraq broke off diplomatic relations with the US over the 1967 Arab-Israel War. They were our enemies under Saddam Hussein from 1979 until we put a big US combat boot up his ass. Don't re-write history. Mudcat has some standard opinions that must be adhered to for purposes of getting along. They ain't true, but that don't matter here.

Iraq never was our ally and they never received a "wink" from the US ambassador to invade Kuwait. They had less than 2.5% US arms going into the Kuwait invasion, none of that material was authorized by the US government (read: from illegal arms deals). The nerve gas and biological agents Reagan authorized in about 1986 consisted of small samples (vials carried in one briefcase) and came with technical help. The purpose was to identify the chemical and biological agents that Iran was using against the Iraqi army and civilians. And we gave spy plane photos but only after repulsed the Iraqi aggression and moved into Iranian territory to conquer Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack The Sailor
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 08:09 PM

pdq, you need to start getting your history from more historians and fewer hacks.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 08:26 PM

I don't understand the last sentence in the second paragraph in the 17 Aug 08 - 08:05 PM post. Who moved into Iranian territory to conquer Iraq?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 08:50 PM

A bit more proofreading...Yes, Iran moved into Iraqi territory in the latter stages of the Iran-Iraq War. Reagan maintained a strict neutrality until Iran became the aggressors. He gave Iraqi diplomats sophisticated spy plane photographs showing the location of Iranian troop movements. He gave them no weapons and made it clear that when hostilites ended, the original borders were going to stand. Compare that to Kosovo, Bosnia and Geargia. Inconsistent foreign policy as I have already stated.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 09:51 PM

If the US only stepped in when Iran entered Iraqi territory, it really can't be said that the US was maintaining strict neutrality, since Iraq invaded Iran in the first place. Clearly, the US wanted Iraq to invade Iran, and it did not want Iran to enter Iraqi territory. Had the US maintained neutrality, it would not have interfered in any way at any time, and certainly not after it had already allowed Iraq to invade Iran.

Iraq was our proxy against the Iranian revolutionaries in the Iran Iraq war.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 09:58 PM

And it's just too bad Shakespeare wasn't around to write the play about the insanity that he certainly would have deduced from the hypocisy related to the Iran-Contra affair.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 11:55 PM

As usual, pdq, you are mesmerized by the outer form of the law (official treaties, alliances, U.N. declarations, whatever), and can't seem to see what is actually going on between the lines.

The outer form of the law, when it applies to international relations, is often intended simply to mislead those who are mesemerized by it while the real program goes forward, and the real program was this:

The USA wanted revenge on Iran for the Iran hostage crisis that crippled Jimmy Carter's presidency and humiliated and frustrated America. They wanted to bring down the Iranian regime. They encouraged Saddam Hussein to use Iraq as their instrument to punish Iran. They helped finance his war effort. Their hope was that Saddam's invasion would break the back of the Iranian regime for good, following which the USA could establish a compliant regime in Iran, thus controlling Iranian oil and getting revenge on Iran at the same time.

Saddam did well at first, because he had the intial advantage of surprise and he had better modern weaponry. He did not do well in the long run. The Iranians defeated his invasion. If you call their eventual advances across the border into Iraq "aggression" under that circumstance, then perhaps you would call the Allied invasions of occupied Europe under the Third Reich aggression as well?

Saddam had failed miserably as America's hired gun to punish Iran, but he still was armed to the teeth...and he had nowhere to go...

He had become an embarrassment and a liability at that point. So the next thing to do was wait for Saddam to make his next serious mistake or help him to make it...then pull his teeth. As it turned out, that didn't take too long.

None of this has anything to do with the official out-front propaganda BS, pdq, it has to do with the real strategic moves behind the scenes. Actions speak louder than words.

The USA and UK have been playing a Great Game in the Middle East ever since the end of WWII. That game is aimed at controlling Middle Eastern oil and the marketing of that oil. They used Saddam while it was convenient, they dumped him when it wasn't anymore. They blew it totally when it came to dealing with Iran, though....so Iran is still on the hit list. If there is another war there soon it will be Iran which is targeted. Syria is also on the hit list, but much secondary, I'd say.

The excuse again, just like in Iraq, will be the rumored presence or the rumored danger of WMDs.

It is the excuse most likely to be believed by the American public, despite the fact that Iran and Iraq are both utterly physically and technically incapable of attacking the USA...and they would not attack Israel either unless they had decided on committing national suicide.

Thus, those who already HAVE the WMDs by the hundreds and/or thousands...Israel, the USA, and the UK...pretend to be living in fear of those who don't have them...and who wouldn't even dare use them if they did have them, for the most painfully obvious reasons.

It's ridiculous, but a majority of Americans will probably believe it once again, because you seem inclined to believe anything you are told by Big Brother as long as it places evil somewhere else in the world....and not at home.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 02:51 AM

That's IT exactly Hawk...one has to read between the lines.

What seems obvious, is totally incomprehensible to folks like pdq, Teribus , or Bearded Bruce.
I wonder though, is this really the case, or do they have the powers required to deduce and are just afraid to use them?

I don't think I've ever heard any of them actually question Western foreign policy, other than as a weapon against a rival in domestic politics.
There seems to be some sort of denial at work here.

"I won't think for myself.....Iwon't....I won't...and no fuckin' leftie is gonna make me"...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 06:53 AM

Well I've read this thread through and done some thinking.

I started off (like most people) caught up in the wole "aaahhh the cold war is starting again" hysteria.

I've come round though, thanks to the sound reasoning of folks like CarolC, to a point where I am disgusted and revolted by the sycophancy of David Cameron and the opportunism of Bush, but most of all by the Audacity of Sakashvilli.

I have a name for the new world ideology - cynical egotism.

The Russians are no angels, but the world is not well served by the distortion of truth that we are seeing around us.

Vote "cynical egotist" at the next election ... or if that ain't your cup of tea, go for Obama.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 07:52 AM

Obama - I don't know how you could get more egotistical than that.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: folk1e
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 07:52 AM

One of the problems with playing with the "brown and smelly" is that you end up covered in it!


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 09:15 AM

Lox, I don't see how Bush escapes blame in this. Form seeing Putin's soul to the combination of bluster and neglect in foreign policy, to the cancellation of Russian oil contracts in Iraq, to the "missile defense", to the offer of a NATO seat to Georgia, which Bush does not have authority to give. The man is a perfect storm of diplomatic fuckups and the negation of power.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 11:03 AM

bottom line: Russia wins.

The US is 54 Trillion dollars in debt with a stop lost military and is not the mythological undenied supreme super power.

Jack when you (quoted) "Iraq never was our ally and they never received a "wink" from the US ambassador to invade Kuwait"
you probably did not intend to revise history but that statement is dead wrong. I watched the ambassador speak of her involvment and she said she was ordered to say "we have no intention to intervene."

Under Reagan we sent GHW Bush to Iraq for Saddams birthday. Bush was taped kissing Saddam on each cheek. ITs a much more powerful video than Rumsfeld sahking hands with Saddam.

Isn't it amaking how quickly we lose touch with accurate history?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 11:45 AM

It was another poster (not JtS) who said that about Iraq not ever being our ally or receiving a "wink" from us.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 12:23 PM

sorry , typical forum mistake due to not reading every post.

thanks


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 12:28 PM

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/17/AR2008081702076.html?hpid=opinionsbox1


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 12:29 PM

The time will come when the sequence of events and responsibilities can be established in an indisputable and impartial manner: several weeks of provocations and skirmishes along the lines separating South Ossetia from the rest of Georgia; the thoughtless Georgian military intervention in South Ossetia the night of Aug. 7-8; the brutal and disproportionate response of Russian troops, driving the small Georgian army from South Ossetia and dislodging it from Abkhazia -- the other separatist province, where it had regained a foothold in 2006 -- before occupying part of the rest of Georgian territory.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/17/AR2008081702078.html?hpid=opinionsbox1


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 12:34 PM

Thoughtless of Georgia to kill more than a thousand South Ossetian civilians, and brutal of Russia to kill less than two hundred Georgian civilians?

I guess this assertion doesn't surprise me considering the source.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 12:47 PM

CarolC,

Did you read the article. and even see who the source WAS?

And tour numbers are slightly biased- YOU need to look at more than one side to get a real idea of the numbers killed. Or even look for a NEUTRAL party... Like France???


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 12:48 PM

I don't blame bush - I see him as taking a golden opportuity to capitalise on circumstances.

Sakashvilli is a little trouble maker trying to play the powers off against each other and using his own people as well as the south ossetians as cannon fodder to further his own spiteful self aggrandizing agenda.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 12:49 PM

Just had a naughty little risque giggle at the idea of Genocide in Chicken Valley ...


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 12:51 PM

Sorry, I very seldom trust any information coming from the Washington Post.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Paul Burke
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 12:52 PM

the thoughtless Georgian military intervention in South Ossetia the night of Aug. 7-8; the brutal and disproportionate response of Russian troops

I've no brief for the Russians- in fact, I believe that Putin is a fascist dicator in preparation, and in 5 years time, we'll see what a fascist nuclear power looks like- but nobody has offered any explanation why Saakashvili behaved as he did. Why take your trousers off and stick your dick in a wasp's nest? And, though one's concern must be for the civilians of either side, and for the poor benighted soldiers too, just for a moment imagine the USA's response if Cuba invaded Florida, and the Russians put military equipment in Mexico. What sort of "proportionate response" would be appropriate?

Remember that the USA is sponsoring some vile dictatorships in former Soviet states on Russia's southern border, and can't claim any democratic moral high ground.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 12:53 PM

From bb's 12:28 link:



By Fred Hiatt

Monday, August 18, 2008; Page A11

As Russian forces loot and occupy a neighboring state, conscripting Georgian civilians at gunpoint to sweep their city streets, it's not uncommon, in Moscow or in Washington, to find America at fault.

Russia has gone over to the dark side -- or, in the Moscow version, has finally stood up for itself -- in understandable reaction to U.S. disrespect, according to this view. And the next president should learn a lesson from this: that there are limits to how far Russia can or should be pushed.

This narrative of American provocation cites a long list of grievances, but the principal and original sin is NATO expansion. After the dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1991, the United States encouraged the newly free nations of Central and Eastern Europe to join a military alliance whose founding purpose had been containment of the U.S.S.R. Russia hated the idea from the start, and the United States should have known that Moscow, once it recovered its strength, would exact retribution.

But was this really something that was done to, or even against, Russia? The vision behind NATO expansion under both President Bill Clinton and President Bush was a Europe whole and free. The carrot of NATO membership was dangled, first of all, to ease the dangers of transition. Applicant countries had to promise civilian control of their militaries, fair treatment of ethnic minorities and respect for international borders. Given the terrible things that might have accompanied the dissolution of the Soviet Union, the Warsaw Pact and Czechoslovakia -- Yugoslavia on a far greater scale -- the policy was amazingly successful.

Of course, applicant nations had an additional motive: They wanted an insurance policy against the possibility that Russia might eventually revert to its old form and seek hegemony over them. America sympathized but also hoped that Russia would cooperate with and someday even join NATO -- that it would recognize the potential benefits of living as part of a neighborhood of prosperous, freely trading, democratic nations. It did not seem crazy to hope that Russians themselves would notice how much better off Germans are today, for example, living in respectful peace with smaller neighbors such as Denmark and Belgium than they were when Germany sought domination.

But Vladimir Putin, who came to power in 2000, had a different vision of Russia's place in the world. Russia "has tended to feel absolutely secure only when everybody else, particularly those around its borders, feels absolutely insecure," Russia hand Strobe Talbott noted last week, and Putin fell squarely in that tradition. At home, he quashed political opposition and independent media. He brought Russia's mineral riches back under state control and then began using them -- oil and natural gas in particular -- to enforce obeisance abroad.

And he viewed NATO expansion as an affront, as something done to Russia, not because he imagined that Estonia or Georgia or even NATO itself ever would attack Russia, but because it complicated Russia's drive for hegemony. Seeing the world as a contest among spheres of influence, he could not imagine that the leaders behind NATO might see things differently.

So NATO expansion is an affront only to the kind of Russia that the West would find unacceptable in any case. But, even if America has not sought to encircle or strangle Russia, should it not have been more sensitive to Russia's wounded pride? Might Russia have evolved more democratically if Washington had been more deferential?

Maybe so, but there's not much evidence to support such a theory. The West spent a good part of the past 17 years worrying about Russia's dignity -- expanding the Group of Seven industrial nations to the G-8, for example -- and it's not clear such therapy had any effect. Putin had his own reasons for stifling democracy, and, to quote Talbott again, the "more authoritarian or totalitarian" Russia has been, "the more aggressively it asserts its interests overseas." The unhealthy cycle is on display now: Hearing only about Georgian "genocide" and aggression on state-controlled television, Russians cannot understand Western criticism of Russia's actions as anything but further evidence of unfairness, which could be used to justify more aggressive behavior.

What does all this mean for the next president? By all means he should cooperate with Russia when possible, and he should remain open to the idea that Russia might one day join NATO and other international arrangements on terms of mutual respect.

But if the hope is that greater understanding of and deference to Russia's imperial ambitions would tame those ambitions, the historical analogies are not encouraging.

fredhiatt@washpost.com


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 12:54 PM

...or Nicolas Sarkozy, for that matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 01:03 PM

"but nobody has offered any explanation why Saakashvili behaved as he did. "

Actually, there have been several explainations.

Georgia was reacting to the South Ossetian shelling of the Gerogian posts, after the ceasefire of Aug 7.


Can I start shelling your house, and expect you to do nothing about it?

BTW, the RUSSIANs has been bulding up their forces for the previsous several weeks, and had already spent two weeks in cyberattacks against Georgia, shutting down the Georgian government internet capability.

BEFORE the Georgian attack of 8 August.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 01:05 PM

So, who besides Putin would you trust?


Names please.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 01:08 PM

We can click the links as well as you can pdq.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Emma B
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 01:12 PM

another 'explanation' of how the current dispute originated

'Here in Tskhinvali, residents have no doubt that Georgia started the war with Russia and there is much bitterness about the rain of artillery and rockets that the government of President Mikhail Saakashvili used in its efforts to capture the city.

The Georgian government said much of the destruction of Tskhinvali was caused by a Russian counteroffensive, but that argument carries no weight with residents.

People insist that a terrible barrage struck the city late Aug. 7 and continued into the morning - accounts supported by Western monitors who were also forced into their cellars. Even buildings used by the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe were damaged, one severely.'

from the Boston Globe


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 01:21 PM

I don't particularly trust putin, but it is becoming increasingly clear to me that Sakashvilli's motivation is and has always been the subjugation of Abkhazia and South Ossetia to unwelcome Georgian control.

I have a family member who worked in Abkhazia with the red cross in about 2001 and I remember him describing Georgian policy towards Abkhazia in pretty scathing terms.

The days of Shevrednadze are sadly long gone and have been replaced by yet another ambitious reckless nationalist in the form of Sakashvilli.

His foray into Chicken Valley was something he has been looking for an excuse to do for years.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 01:21 PM

I would tend to trust the South Ossetians in this particular case.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 01:25 PM

I don't particularly trust sakashvilli, but it is becoming increasingly clear to me that putin's motivation is and has always been the subjugation of Georgia to unwelcome Russian control.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 01:26 PM

CarolC,

Why?


How are they any different than Georgia, or Russia? Don't they have a vested point of view, and wouldn't they lie to put it forward?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 01:30 PM

The difference between South Ossetia and the group consisting USA Russia and Europe is that they have no illusions of international dominance or power.

The best they can hope for is a big friend to look after them and trade with them. If they can have independance that is a bonus.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 01:32 PM

I forgot to include Georgia in that group.

Sakashvilli wants to be *taken seriously*.



Yeah right!


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 01:34 PM

Everybody pissed on someone Lox. Isn't 20-30% of Ossetia ethnic Georgian? Is anyone asking them if they want to break away?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 01:37 PM

Putin

Doesn't give a rats ass about Ossetia or Georgia. He's just rattling Bush's cage and trying to drive up energy prices.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 01:41 PM

We are being given one sided accounts of what was going on during the period leading up to Georgia's bombing and invasion of South Ossetia in the Washington Post and other news outlets with the same agenda as the Washington Post. Georgia was also guilty of violating the ceasefire on many occasions. This was not a one sided situation at all. And Georgia was also doing other things to undermine South Ossetia's internal order and political structure.

Georgia was not acting in response to unprovoked attacks. Georgia was just as guilty as the South Ossetians of violating the ceasefire, and its attack on and invasion of South Ossetia was something that had been planned and prepared for long before the incidents that are being used as cover (by the government of Georgia and some people in this thread).

And as the speech from Saakashvili shows, it was always his intention to take back the areas that broke away by any means necessary.


One theory I've run across lately about a possible motive for Saakahsvili's decision to act when he did, was to coerce the rest of Europe into allowing Georgia to become a member of NATO. He may have succeeded in that objective, but possibly at the cost of his presidency. Of course, the member countries of NATO may regret their decision if they allow Georgia into NATO, especially if Saakashvili remains in office. I think it will be a much bigger problem for them than it will be for Russia.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 01:43 PM

I would tend to trust the South Ossetians because they have only one objective. They want their freedom. Georgia and all of the other players have many hidden objectives, all of which involve subjugating other people.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 01:45 PM

BB

I'll bet you 50 bytes that in a week Russia is out of Georgia and Europe and america have agreed to neuter Sakashvilli.

It'll be done in such a way that Europe will be seen to be the mature referee, america will save face by "letting" europe and sarkozy resolve the situation and russia will tell it's people about the heroic liberation.

North and South Ossetia will eventually be reunited, and will become independant under russias protection.

The fate of Abkhazia will probably continue to be messy for years to come.

Sakashvilli will lose his presidency at the next election and a more docile "partner" will take over after running a campaign blaming sakashvilli for nearly turning georgia into a battle field for the two superpowers.

Georgia will remain independant.

If you are right and Putin is the conquering warlord you say he is, he must conquer Georgia in its entirety now. Really, he would have had to do it last week.

If he wants the oil, why did he not annex that part of Georgia. The pipeline goes nowhere near Ossetia, let alone Abkhazia.

I bet 100 bytes that I am right.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 01:50 PM

Putin is not trying to conquer. He is simply doing the same thing that Israel did to Lebanon a couple of years ago. He's just showing who is boss.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 02:00 PM

In this game of brinksmanship, Georgia got what it wanted. A knee-jerk response from Bush. If you think not, then why would a place like Georgia with a less than effectively trained and armed military go grab Russia by the nuts and squeeze?


Well, now ya know.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Emma B
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 02:04 PM

Even The Telegraph, a staunchly Conservative UK broadsheet and supporter of Mikheil Saakashvili, is critical of 'his decision to invade South Ossetia' and concludes 'he could soon be fighting for his political life with no prospect of any meaningful help from his Western allies.'

Georgia: Mikheil Saakashvili, the man who lost it all


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 02:26 PM

"If you are right and Putin is the conquering warlord you say he is, he must conquer Georgia in its entirety now. Really, he would have had to do it last week."

Nope- all Putin has to do is keep his "peacekeepers " in Georgian Territory to show that he is in control. Note he is NOT withdrwing even though the ceasefire calls for that.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 02:29 PM

BTW, I have never said that Georgia was JUSTIFIED, just that they had a reason. They did not act wisely.

I object ONLY to CarolC's declaration that South Ossetia is the "innocent party" - the comment that Georgia has some blame is certainly true- But there is blood on the South Ossetians, and on Russia, as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 02:31 PM

Had Georgia not kept trying to subjugate the South Ossetians, there would have been no bloodshed whatever. Georgia is the responsible party in this particular conflict.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 02:31 PM

I agree with you, Bruce


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 02:33 PM

The South Ossetians have just as much right to defend themselves against subjugation by Georgia as Georgia has to defend itself from subjugation by Russia. Anyone who defends Georgia's right to defend itself from subjugation by Russia, while denying South Ossetia's right to defend itself from subjugation by Georgia is engaging in hypocrisy.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 02:35 PM

Or partisanship. ;-) That's h-y-p-o-c-r-i-s-y spelled differently.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Emma B
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 02:40 PM

'Georgia proclaimed its independence in April 1991 in a wave of nationalist fervour, partially expressed by the abolition of South Ossetian autonomy. Fighting broke out across South Ossetia in the winter of 1991. This involved armed units based around the former Georgian and South Ossetian police forces, ex-soldiers, and a variety of militia.

In the summer of 1992 Russian president Boris Yeltsin and his Georgian counterpart (and former Soviet foreign minister) Eduard Shevardnadze agreed a ceasefire under the auspices of the largely moribund Commonwealth of Independent States.'

In fact, Russian peacekeeping forces have remained in South Ossetia since that date until President Saakashvili launched his 'reckless shelling of the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali, on August 8th last, killing several Russian soldiers.'

The Irish Times perspective 18th August


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 02:43 PM

There seems to be some confusion as to who shot at who first. I do think the bad asses in this are Georgian. They teased Russia expecting the US to declare for them--which George did. Now what?

Georgia will have a collapsed government within a few months, because when ya start a fight, ya don't always get to say when it stops.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 03:48 PM

Peace,

I have to disagree. The recent unrest ( may 2008 to present ) seems to have been started by South Ossetians attacking Georgians, in an effort to turn their defacto independence into dejure. Prior to this, after the 1991-2 conflict, it was non-violent.

I do NOT judge whether they were justified in taking up arms- BUT I do think that it should be noted who it was that restarted the violent conflict, and who ( the Russian Peacekeepers) who did NOT prevent the attacks of Georgians that are noted.

Too much happened BEFORE 7 August to think that the Georgian invasion was the start of this round of war.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 03:56 PM

"Meanwhile, Human Rights Watch (HRW) said there was "mounting evidence that Russian and Georgian military used armed force unlawfully during the South Ossetian conflict" and it emphasized that this "highlights the need for international fact-finding missions in Georgia."

"Ongoing militia attacks and a growing humanitarian crisis also indicate the urgent need for the deployment of a mission to enhance civilian protection," HRW said in a report.

"This conflict has been a disaster for civilians," said Rachel Denber, HRW's Europe and Central Asia deputy director.

The conflict has devastated parts of Georgia and South Ossetia, with many casualties reported. The U.N. refugee agency said more than 158,000 people had been displaced by fighting in Georgia, mostly from districts outside the breakaway territories where the fighting began."


http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/18/georgia.russia.war/index.html




AND- ie, BOTH SIDES.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 04:02 PM

CarolC,

"Had Georgia not kept trying to subjugate the South Ossetians, there would have been no bloodshed whatever"


I have to differ- it was the South Ossetians who seem to have started THIS round of violence, against Georgians.

"The 2008 Georgian - Russia crisis began on March 6, 2008 when Russia announced that it would no longer participate in the Commonwealth of Independent States economic sanctions imposed on Abkhazia in 1996.[1] The crisis has been linked to the push for Georgia to receive a NATO Membership Action Plan and the unilateral declaration of independence by Kosovo.[2] Tensions in the crisis have been primarily centered around the breakaway state of Abkhazia and increased following the shootdown of a Georgian UAV drone airplane and subsequent buildup of military forces by Russia."

"The crisis deepened on April 20, 2008 when a Georgian unmanned unarmed aerial vehicle (UAV) was shot down over the Abkhazian conflict zone. Abkhazia's separatist administration immediately said its own forces shot down the drone because it was violating Abkhaz airspace and breached ceasefire agreements. Garry Kupalba, deputy defence minister of the unrecognised Republic of Abkhazia, told reporters the drone had been shot down by an "L-39 aircraft of the Abkhaz Air Force". He also identified the drone as an Israeli-made Hermes 450.[17]

However, Georgia's defence ministry released video the next day showing what appears to be a Russian MiG-29 shooting down the unarmed Georgian drone. The video, shot from the drone moments before impact, shows a jet launching a missile over what appears to be the Black Sea. According to Georgia the jet came from Gudauta and then returned to Russia. Moscow denied Georgia's accusation and stressed that none of its planes were in the region at the time.[18][19] Furthermore, Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs issued a statement accusing Georgia of violating 1994 Moscow agreement and United Nations resolutions on Abkhazia by deploying without authorisation a UAV (which also can be used to direct fire) in the Security Zone and the Restricted Weapons Zone.[20]

On April 24, a closed-door U.N. Security Council emergency session convened at Georgia's request failed to resolve the dispute, but the U.S., the United Kingdom, France and Germany issued a joint statement expressing their concern over Russia's recent moves in Abkhazia and calling Moscow to reverse or not to implement its decision to legalize ties with Abkhazia and South Ossetia. The Russian ambassador to the U.N. Vitaly Churkin called the demand by the Western states "a tall order" and stressed that Russia had no intention of reversing its plans.[21]

Although Moscow denies that a MiG-class fighter was involved in the incident, the Russian envoy to NATO, Dmitry Rogozin, has suggested that a MiG-29 belonging to a NATO member might have downed the Georgian spy plane. In response, NATO Secretary General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer has reportedly remarked that "he'd eat his tie if it turned out that a NATO MiG-29 had magically appeared in Abkhazia and shot down a Georgian drone."[22]

Early in May 2008, both Russian and Abkhaz sides claimed that three more Georgian reconnaissance drones were shot over Abkhazia, and declared that Georgia was preparing to mount an offensive into the region in the near future. Georgia denied these allegations, stating that it was "a provocation aimed at propagandistic support of Russia's military intervention."[23]

On May 26, 2008, the U.N. mission released the conclusion of its independent investigation into the April 20 incident. It confirmed that the Georgian video footage and radar data were authentic and the jet which destroyed the drone was indeed Russian. The conclusion report said that the jet flew towards the Russian territory after the incident, but it was unclear where the attacker took off, naming the Gudauta base as a possible locality. The mission also noted that "a reconnaissance mission by a military aircraft, whether manned or unmanned, constituted "military action" and therefore contravened the ceasefire accord.[24] Georgia hailed the report,[25] but Russia dismissed it.[26]

Georgia had officially suspended drone flights over Abkhazia in early June, but Abkhazia accuses Georgia of continuing to fly drones in the region.[27"

"On May 21, 2008 automatic weapons fire and grenade blasts were reported near the village of Kurcha. A passenger bus is also reported to have come under fire. Russian peacekeepers and UN observers were called to the scene of the violence.[44] A deputy Georgian interior minister told journalists two buses of passengers going to vote in the Georgian elections were blown up and that the injured were being taken to Zugdidi hospital.[45] Abkhaz officials claimed the attacks happened in Georgian territory, not Abkhaz. Two Georgians were reported to be those injured in the attack.[46] Some reports said the Inguri Bridge, the only legal crossing-point between the breakaway region of Abkhazia and Samegrelo, was blocked by Abkhaz paramilitary units and that Bus crossing has also been banned. Dozens of local residents assembled in front of the administrative office of the district to protest the decision. [47] Georgian officials accused Abkhazia of the attacks and preventing Georgians from voting in the legislative elections, which Abkhaz officials denied instead saying Georgia was responsible for the attack and Georgians in Abkhaiza were not interested in voting. Abkhazia said Russian peacekeepers were sent to the border to prevent further violence.[48]

Georgia's Foreign Ministry has sent a protest note to the CIS secretariat demanding some Russian troops and armaments be immediately withdrawn from Abkhazia saying that according to the UN, an airborne battalion, 50 BMD-2 airborne combat vehicles, and two artillery batteries have been deployed in Abkhazia. The ministry said this was out of line with a 1995 resolution of the CIS presidents' council.[49]

On June 15, 2008 media reports circulated saying Russia had set up a military base near the village of Agubedia in Abkhazia's Ochamchir district and had deployed heavy armor there. Russia's Defense Ministry denied the report.[50] The Georgian-backed Abkhaz government said on June 17, 2008 that Russia refuse to allow UN observers in the area.[51]"


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 04:07 PM

"Georgian police said on June 18, 2008 that they detained four Russian peacekeepers and a military truck in the conflict zone between Georgia and its breakaway Abkhazia, accusing the peacekeepers of transporting ammunition and shells without coordination with the Caucasus states. Georgia's Interior Ministry said Tuesday that the peacekeepers were transporting 35 crates of ammunition, including guided missiles and anti-tank mines, a violation of agreements in the region. Russia's Defense Ministry said the arrest was "in violation of all regulatory norms in the buffer zone." The peacekeepers were released after nine hours of interrogation.[53] Lt. Gen. Alexander Burutin, a deputy head of the General Staff, on June 19, 2008 compared the detention to a "bandit attack" warning Russian peacekeepers had every right to use their weapons and that future attempts at detaining peacekeepers may result in bloodshed.[54] A Russian military expert commenting on the detentions predicted war between Georgia and Abkhazia if such actions didn't stop.[55] Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said Russia would not tolerate such actions against peacekeepers.[56]

The Abkhaz government claimed Georgian special forces were responsible for a bombing in Abkhazia on June 30, 2008 that wounded two in Sukhumi and another in Gagra the day before which wounded six. Abkhazia closed off traffic from Georgia in response to the bombing. [57]"

"In South Ossetia three explosions were heard near the village of Eredvi with one blast meters away from a line Georgian military vehicles. South Ossetian authorities have called the blasts a "provocation".[59] Deputy Defense Minister Batu Kutelia accused the South Ossetian administration of being responsbile, saying they had taken up "tactics of terrorism."[60]"

"On the night of June 14 into the early morning of June 15 of 2008 mortar fire and an exchange of gunfire were reported between South Ossetian and Georgian forces. South Ossetia reported that mortar fire was launched from Georgian-controlled villages on Tshinkvali, the South Ossetian capital, and that their forces came under fire from Georgian forces on the outskirts of the capital. Georgia denies firing the first shot claiming instead that South Ossetia had attacked the Georgian-controlled villages.[63] Russian, Georgian, and North Ossetia peacekeepers as well as OSCE monitors went to the site of the clashes however it was not determined who fired the first shot. One person was killed and four wounded during the violence.[64]"

Events from July 4 on have already been posted.




If you can state that one side, and only one side is at fault, you either are not looking at the facts, or you have already decided what to think before looking at them.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 05:31 PM

As I said before, someone is being very selective about which events they are willing to report. And as I said before, Georgia was also engaging in the very same sort of thing as the above posts are accusing the South Ossetians of engaging in.


This one is proof of nothing, since each side is blaming the other side...

"On the night of June 14 into the early morning of June 15 of 2008 mortar fire and an exchange of gunfire were reported between South Ossetian and Georgian forces. South Ossetia reported that mortar fire was launched from Georgian-controlled villages on Tshinkvali, the South Ossetian capital, and that their forces came under fire from Georgian forces on the outskirts of the capital. Georgia denies firing the first shot claiming instead that South Ossetia had attacked the Georgian-controlled villages.[63] Russian, Georgian, and North Ossetia peacekeepers as well as OSCE monitors went to the site of the clashes however it was not determined who fired the first shot. One person was killed and four wounded during the violence.[64]"



25 April 2008 – Russian Foreign Ministry claims Georgia is potentially planning a military intervention in Abkhazia.

June 2007 – South Ossetia asserts Tskhinvali shelled by Georgian mortar and sniper fire.

15 May 2008 – Russian defence chief Yuri Baluyevsky urges NATO to help stop the 'military build-up' in Georgia, and names the US, Turkey, the Czech Republic, and Bulgaria the top providers of military resources to Georgia.

30 June-2 July 2008 – Blasts in Sukhumi market and Russian peacekeepers' checkpoint on Georgian-Abkhaz border. Russia blames Georgian special forces for the incidents.

3-4 July 2008 – Explosions in South Ossetia prompt Russia to accuse Georgia of military intervention and to condemn its 'aggression'.

29-30 July 2008 – South Ossetia accuses Georgia of shelling villages outside of Tskhinvali. Georgia asserts that South Ossetians directed fire towards its monitoring group.

Aug. 4: Russia accuses Georgia of using excessive force in South Ossetia after the Russian-backed rebels said Georgian artillery had killed at least six people.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Emma B
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 05:39 PM

After the GMT 4:00 8 August UN Security Council meeting, U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Daniel Fried said that it appeared that the South Ossetians were the provokers of the violence. Fried said, "We have urged the Russians to urge their South Ossetian friends to pull back and show greater restraint. And we believe that the Russians ... are trying to do just that

The US Vice President Dick Cheney said on August 10, "Russian aggression must not go unanswered, and that its continuation would have serious consequences for its relations with the United States, as well as the broader international community." in an expression of U.S. solidarity with Georgia in the conflict with Russia.

Confused?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 05:43 PM

"someone is being very selective about which events they are willing to report."

I have noticed: When I post that BOTH sides are to blame, you decide that ONLY Georgia is at fault, and that it is OK for the South Ossetians to kill and murder.




" Georgia was also engaging in the very same sort of thing as the above posts are accusing the South Ossetians of engaging in."

As I have said- BUT you seem to always ignore the fact that the South Ossetians ARE engaged in it as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Emma B
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 05:51 PM

Bruce there are 'faults' on both sides despite the very one sided initial reporting which demanded a response.

'Saakashvili is a famously volatile risk-taker, veering between warmonger and peacemaker, democrat and autocrat. On several occasions international officials have pulled him back from the brink. On a visit to Washington in 2004, he received a tongue-lashing from then Secretary of State Colin Powell who told him to act with restraint. Two months ago, he could have triggered a war with his other breakaway province of Abkhazia by calling for the expulsion of Russian peacekeepers from there, but European diplomats persuaded him to step back. This time he has yielded to provocation and stepped over the precipice.

The provocation is real, but the Georgian President is rash to believe this is a war he can win or that the West wants it. Both George Bush and John McCain have visited Georgia, made glowing speeches praising Saakashvili and were rewarded with the Order of St George. But Bush, at least in public, is now bound to be cautious, calling for a ceasefire.

The reaction in much of Europe will be much less forgiving. Even before this crisis, a number of governments, notably France and Germany, were reporting 'Georgia fatigue'. Though they broadly wished the Saakashvili government well, they did not buy the line that he was a model democrat - the sight last November of his riot police tear-gassing protesters in Tbilisi and smashing up an opposition TV station dispelled that illusion. And they have a long agenda of issues with Russia, which they regard as more important than the post-Soviet quarrel between Moscow and Tbilisi. Paris and Berlin will now say they were right to urge caution on Georgia's Nato ambitions at the Bucharest Nato summit.

Both sides are behaving badly.

It is outrageous that Russia is seizing the chance to attack Georgian towns and airfields. Dozens of Georgian civilians are now dying too. But Georgia needs to be restrained, for its own sake.'

'Georgia's volatile risk-taker has gone over the brink'
Thomas de Waal The Observer, Sunday August 10 2008


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 05:52 PM

On March 31, 2008 a South Ossetian police post near the village of Okona in the Znaur District was attacked by a group armed with guns and grenade launchers. Military observers from the Joint Peacekeeping Force and the OSCE mission established that the shots were fired from an area controlled by Georgia. Two days before the shooting, Georgian police task force and security officers dressed as civilians had been seen in the vicinity.

On April 2 another armed group fired automatic weapons at a South Ossetian Defense Ministry checkpoint near the village of Andzi-si. The servicemen at the checkpoint did not return fire.

A total of 56 incidents of ceasefire violation by Georgian forces were registered by the Joint Peacekeeping Force in April 2008. Most of them involved random shooting with the purpose of fueling tension in the region.

On May 14 President of South Ossetia Eduard Kokoity said the Georgian special services were planning a terrorist attack in the territory of the self-proclaimed republic against Georgians and Georgian peacekeepers.

On May 15 Captain Vladimir Ivanov, an aide to the Joint Peacekeeping Force commander for contacts with the media, announced a planned rotation of the peacekeeping contingent in South Ossetia. Georgian media then spread information about an alleged expansion of the Russian peacekeeping contingent in the conflict zone, quoting Georgia's foreign minister. A routine rotation was described as a "provocation" and a "reckless enterprise."

On July 3 as Dmitry Sanakoyev, head of the 'alternative' Georgian-backed government of South Ossetia, was driving across the republic to Batumi to attend an international conference, his car was struck by a mine and fired at from the direction of local villages. Sanakoyev's bodyguards returned fire. The shooting went on for several minutes. Three of the guards were severely injured. Sanakoyev himself was unscathed. South Ossetian Interior Minister Mikhail Mindzayev said that the attack on Sanakoyev was orchestrated by Georgia to provide a pretext for invading the self-proclaimed republic.

On July 7 the police in Russia's Southern Federal District detained four military men from the Georgian Defense Ministry in the village of Okon, South Ossetia's Znaur District. Officials of the breakaway region of South Ossetia claimed the detained men were pursuing intelligence activities in the Tskhinvali region. Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili considered the detainment a hostage situation. On July 8, the detainees were released.

On July 9, Russia's Foreign Ministry issued a statement concerning the aggravated situation in the Georgian-Abkhazian and Georgian-Ossetian conflict zones, which said that "For the past several days, the situation in the Georgian-Abkhazian and Georgian-South Ossetian conflict zones has intensified. The city of Tskhinvali has been shelled by the Georgian army, with victims registered among civilians. Fighters and unmanned aircraft of the Georgian Air Force have repeatedly violated the conflict territorial air zones. In a terrorist attack, a South Ossetian police officer was killed. Georgian military set up a post at a strategic site near the village of Sarabuki. Additional military equipment was moved from Georgia into the conflict zone without any coordination with the Joint Peacekeeping Forces, which was registered by military observers including by the OSCE mission in Georgia. These actions point to an open and planned aggression against South Ossetia, which is the internationally recognized side in settling the conflict."

On August 1 and 2, the tension in the Georgian-South Ossetian conflict zone was aggravated due to a massive shelling of Tskhinvali's residential districts, which led to numerous deaths among civilians, with six South Ossetians killed and 15 wounded. Georgia claimed this was a response to South Ossetia's gunfire on Georgia's territory. South Ossetia began evacuating the region's residents to North Ossetia, with 2,500 people leaving their homes during the two days after the shelling.

On August 6, South Ossetian President Eduard Kokoity said he would take "the toughest measures" toward "militants firing at the villages." Previously, the breakaway region's Defense Ministry reported that the Georgian side started sniper fire at the South Ossetian villages of Mugut and Didmukha in the Znaur District at around 12:00 p.m. According to South Ossetian sources, the Georgian special forces attempted to occupy Nul Height to gain control over the Znaur road and the South Ossetian villages located along the road. In the afternoon, it was reported that an aggressive battle was taking place at the village of Nul.

Irina Gagloyeva, head of South Ossetia's Committee for Information and the Press, told RIA Novosti that South Ossetian units had forced the Georgian military units out of Nul Height.

Georgia's Interior Ministry, however, denied the reports.

According to the South Ossetian Interior Ministry, on August 7 Georgia started ground fire and shelling of the South Ossetian capital Tskhinvali from the village of Nikozi. Then, according to Tskhinvali, the shelling and shooting at the South Ossetian village of Khetagurovo was started from the Georgian village of Avnevi. About 10 people were killed and another 50 received various wounds. The Georgian media, however, reported that the South Ossetian side had been shelling the Georgian villages of Avnevi and Nuli for three hours. According to the information of the Joint Peacekeeping Forces in the conflict zone, it was the Georgian side that started firing first. Also, there were reports that Russian peacekeepers were fired on.

On August 8 Georgia started military operations in the Georgian-Ossetian conflict zone.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 05:57 PM

Someone has been suggesting that the South Ossetians were unilaterally attacking Georgia and Georgian villages, and saying that the South Ossetians were the aggressors prior to Georgia's bombing and invasion of South Ossetia. This is not true. Georgia was also engaging in acts of aggression against South Ossetia. So for Georgia to be violating the cease fire and engaging in acts of aggression against South Ossetia, and to then bomb, shell, and invade South Ossetia on the pretext that it's doing so because it's a victim of South Ossetian aggression is simply a lie. Georgia's bombing and invasion of South Ossetia had nothing whatever to do with defending itself from acts of aggression from South Ossetia.

As we can see, Georgia was deliberately inflaming the situation in South Ossetia in order to create a pretext to bomb and invade.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 06:06 PM

"The conflict has devastated parts of Georgia and South Ossetia, with many casualties reported. The U.N. refugee agency said more than 158,000 people had been displaced by fighting in Georgia, mostly from districts outside the breakaway territories where the fighting began."

The figure above is rather astounding since the conflict is about only 40,000 unhappy people in the area we are calling South Ossetia, a part of Georgia.

To "rescue" them, the Russians have started a conflict that has displaced 158,000 innocent civilians from all over the nation of Georgia, and that number can only rise.

As I said before, if the Ossetian minority, about 57% of the disputed region's total population want to leave, Russia should be sending vans and busses, not MIGs and tanks.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 06:14 PM

Georgia has no right to force or even expect the South Ossetians to leave the area where they have been living for many hundreds of years. The South Ossetians do have a right to remain living there in freedom for however long they want.

If might makes right, and whoever has the most might can do whatever they want to whoever is weaker, then we really can't tell Russia it can't annex Georgia if it wants to. If might is the only right, Russia can do whatever it wants with Georgia. If might doesn't make right, then whatever rights the people of Georgia have to be free and independent and not subjugated by a larger more powerful country, the South Ossetians also have.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 06:18 PM

"Someone has been suggesting that the South Ossetians were unilaterally attacking Georgia and Georgian villages, and saying that the South Ossetians were the aggressors prior to Georgia's bombing and invasion of South Ossetia. "

YOU are the only one claiming unilateral anything.

South Ossetia did attack Georgians before the Aug 7 invasion. Fact- live with it.


I never said that either side was innocent- YOU did that.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 07:23 PM

Another demonstration of the truth that the Cold War wasn't really anything much to do with the USSR being Socialist.

Of course it suited the rulers on both sides to make out that it was - for the Soviet Union it was a way of winning a certain measure of support from some Socialists outside, and for the Americans especially it was a way of discrediting Socialist ideas.

But in fact the way the USSR acted was down to Russian imperialism, carried over from pre-revolutionary times, and still very much with us in post Soviet times.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 09:04 PM

In the 18 Aug 08 - 04:02 PM post and others, it is asserted that it was South Ossetia that started this round of violence prior to the attack and invasion of South Ossetia by Georgia on August 8th. This is false. That post and others makes the claim that South Ossetia unilaterally engaged in violence against Georgia during that time period, and that Georgia was just acting in self defence. That post (and others) ignores all of the violence that Georgia was using against South Ossetia during the same time period. That post and others are suggesting that Georgia didn't contribute to the violence prior to it's bombing and invasion of South Ossetia on August 8th. This is entirely false.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 09:12 PM

Wrong, CarolC. The post you claim did nothing of the sort. I HAVE STATED THAT GEORGIA bears some responsibility- when do you admit the South Ossetians do as well?

IN FACT, the attack of 7 Aug by the gEORGIANS ( WHICH WAS AN OVER-REACTION) was in response to an attack BY SOUTH OSSETIANS on GEORGIANS, after a ceasefire. There had been attacks by BOTH sides ealier, and would be later. But there would have been no invasion if the Ossetians had kept the ceasefire- unless the Russians, who were already attacking Georgia, insisted on it.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 09:19 PM

This incident...

On March 31, 2008 a South Ossetian police post near the village of Okona in the Znaur District was attacked by a group armed with guns and grenade launchers. Military observers from the Joint Peacekeeping Force and the OSCE mission established that the shots were fired from an area controlled by Georgia. Two days before the shooting, Georgian police task force and security officers dressed as civilians had been seen in the vicinity.

...occurred prior to the incident that the person who is insisting that the South Ossetians started this round of violence has been referencing as the start of the violence. As did this one...


On April 2 another armed group fired automatic weapons at a South Ossetian Defense Ministry checkpoint near the village of Andzi-si. The servicemen at the checkpoint did not return fire.


And all of these...

A total of 56 incidents of ceasefire violation by Georgian forces were registered by the Joint Peacekeeping Force in April 2008. Most of them involved random shooting with the purpose of fueling tension in the region.

Clearly, the violence that this person is insisting was the start of THIS round of violence was not the start of this round of violence.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 09:20 PM

No I don't consider the South Ossetians responsible. As I have said before, had Georgia not tried to subjugate South Ossetia, and interfered with their right to self determination, none of that violence would have occurred.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 09:29 PM

CarolC,,

You keep ignoring the CEASEFIRE of 7 Aug, that would have ended the violence except for S. Ossetion restarting it.
YOU keep picking dates befiore the ceasefire- well, I can too, to show attacks on the Georgians. Just admit BOTH sides were at fault, and that Russia has no right to continue to occupy Georgia, as they seem to be doing.

THE PRESENT ETHNIC CLENSING THAT IS GOING ON IS BY THE OSSETIANS, AND RUSSIAN "PEACEKEEPERS, AGAINST GEORGIAN CIVILIANS.

I really don't think you want to be thought of as someone in favor of that.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 09:31 PM

the irony here is that in seeking to expand its and Nato's influence the US has actually diminished the alliance. Obviously the US took advantage of Sakashvili to extend the US sphere of influence into formerly Soviet borders. So whats going to happen to Nato, while the US and British media covers this as Russian aggression the rest of Europe isnt as black and white on the subject. The OLD Europe which still has several times the population and wealth of New Europe is not as willing to go to war with Russia over Georgia or some other former RUssian territory.
And that is what Nato membership would mean.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 09:43 PM

"THE PRESENT ETHNIC CLENSING THAT IS GOING ON IS BY THE OSSETIANS, AND RUSSIAN "PEACEKEEPERS, AGAINST GEORGIAN CIVILIANS."


                   After learning the truth about Kosovo, there are numbers of Americans who do not believe this is happening, or ever did happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 10:50 PM

I think it is pointless to argue whether or not the Ossetians are brave little defenders of their cultural identity or pawns of the big bear. It's obviously clearly both. The Ossetians make a handy 'bully boy' with which Russia can tweak the Georgian nose of the Western camel which has come into their tent of influence. The Russians are supporters of nationalities when it suits, and they are the crushers of nationalities as well. Check with the Chechens just north of this situation. The Soviet Union was a wholesale ethnic cleanser/relocator.

This is not sudden and it is not based purely on the events of the last ten days. It is an interesting combination of what appears to me to be clumsy moves by the Bush administration to extend NATO membership precipatetly and somewhat incomprehensibly. I personally don't see what Poland wants with American anti-missile missiles (particularly when they don't really work). I think the notion of countering ballistic missiles with missiles has not been turned in to a successful production weapon, it is warmed over Reagan-vision. And it definitely pisses off the Russians. It always has. Similarly, the Russian bait-and-smash of the Georgians is reminiscent of Cold War objectives and Cold War tactics.

It is overall a surrender to the old world view, (us and them)and it is creating deja vue to those of us who remember the good ol' days of Soviet Union, Warsaw Pact, and NATO.

Russia might profit immediately as 'tough guy on the block' but with a resurgent and united Europe I think it is not a good long term policy.

Clearly this has been a tonic to the McCain campaign, which is slanted toward the previous century (as was the 'W' administration). They're going to make all the hay they can over this. Obama is at risk either way he wants to argue: He can't look any more militant than McCain, so he will be branded as a 'me-too'. On the other hand, his ability to reason via the 'big picture', while very attractive in the primaries, leaves him open to a charge of looking weak by being reasonable.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 12:14 AM

Georgia declared a unilateral truce on August 7, and on August 7 these things happened...

According to the South Ossetian Interior Ministry, on August 7 Georgia started ground fire and shelling of the South Ossetian capital Tskhinvali from the village of Nikozi. Then, according to Tskhinvali, the shelling and shooting at the South Ossetian village of Khetagurovo was started from the Georgian village of Avnevi. About 10 people were killed and another 50 received various wounds. The Georgian media, however, reported that the South Ossetian side had been shelling the Georgian villages of Avnevi and Nuli for three hours. According to the information of the Joint Peacekeeping Forces in the conflict zone, it was the Georgian side that started firing first. Also, there were reports that Russian peacekeepers were fired on.

Georgia began invading and occupying South Ossetian villages by 2:45 AM on the 8th.

Some unilateral cease fire.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 12:18 AM

I've been hearing conflicting reports about what the Russian forces have been doing in Georgia as well. As we've seen, the Georgians are doing a lot of lying, and they were caught at it by the Joint Peacekeeping Forces in the conflict zone (see my previous post). Right now, I'm not prepared to accept the version of events that is being promulgated by the government of Georgia.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Baffled
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 01:32 AM

Long thread I haven't been able to read completely, but has anyone pointed out that the Georgian ethnic cleansing began just after midnight on 8-8-08? Trained by the Luciferian CIA, the Georgians got extra occultic 'power' by killing as many as they could on that magical day.

The Brezinski plan (Z. Brezinski is advising Obama and his son is advising McCain) is to encircle Russia with nukes. Medium range. Also put up missile defenses. Then pre-emptively attack. This renders Mutually Assured Destruction obsolete. NATO believes it can actually sneak attack Russia, destroy most of it's reactive ability, and then shoot down the few missiles that get off the ground.

True insanity. I hope Europe is spooked about this, because Americans don't seem to be. I don't watch TV, but on the day after the Ossetian attack (which will be remembered as the beginning of WW3, much as Ferdinand's assassination marked the beginning of WW1), on 8-8-8 I watched a minute or two of the NBC nightly news, and the lead stories were all tabloid fodder. Comedian Bernie Mac died, etc. No mention of the Ossetia situation.

The news media in America is helping to cover up the crimes of the global corporatists who've seized our government.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 01:41 AM

That won't prevent the Russians from firing nukes from their submarines.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 02:28 PM

According to the South Ossetian Interior Ministry, on August 7 Georgia started ground fire and shelling of the South Ossetian capital Tskhinvali from the village of Nikozi. Then, according to Tskhinvali, the shelling and shooting at the South Ossetian village of Khetagurovo was started from the Georgian village of Avnevi. About 10 people were killed and another 50 received various wounds. The Georgian media, however, reported that the South Ossetian side had been shelling the Georgian villages of Avnevi and Nuli for three hours. According to the information of the Joint Peacekeeping Forces in the conflict zone, it was the Georgian side that started firing first. Also, there were reports that Russian peacekeepers were fired on.

Let me see. You ignore the claimed attacks by South Ossetians that BROKE the ceasefire, and you take the word of the "Joint Peacekeeping Forces " consisting of whom? You seem to go out of your way to ensure that you only get one side of the story.

Are you stating that you KNOW that the South Ossetians did NOT attack any Georgians on the 7th, prior to the Geoirgian attack? Will you admit that, if they did, the Ossetians will have no right to ANYTHING, as you seem to impose on the Georgians?





"The war began after a ceasefire agreement between Georgia and South Ossetia broke down, WITH AN ESCALATION OF FIRE EXCHANGES. Georgia THEN proceeded to launch a major military offensive in South Ossetia.[17] The Georgian government said the troops had been sent to end the shelling of Georgian civilians by South Ossetian "

Note: Echanges indicates that BOTH sides were engaged.

"On August 7, 2008, Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili ordered Georgian troops to ceasefire.[53][54] Despite the declared ceasefire, fighting intensified.[55][56] Hours after the declaration of the ceasefire, in a televised address, Mikheil Saakashvili vowed to restore Tbilisi's control over what he called the "criminal regime" in South Ossetia and Abkhazia and reinforce order.[56]"


"A truce was later announced, with emergency talks set for Friday, but by nightfall, both sides were trading heavy fire.

Georgia accuses Russia of arming the South Ossetian authorities - who have been trying to break away since the civil war in the 1990s. Moscow denies the claim."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7546639.stm


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 02:34 PM

CarolC,

Are you aware of the present condition of Russia submarine forces?




"I personally don't see what Poland wants with American anti-missile missiles (particularly when they don't really work). I think the notion of countering ballistic missiles with missiles has not been turned in to a successful production weapon"

Wrong- they work, but the present installations ( both here and in Poland ) are for only 10 interceptors- enough to remove the threat of a "rogue nation" (N. Korea, Iran) or terrorists launching a few missiles, but not enough to affect the balance of power between US/Russia/France/UK/China, all of whom have lots more than 10 launch vehicles.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Emma B
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 02:36 PM

'But even as tensions appear to be easing in the South Ossetia crisis, Saakashvili's bold—critics say reckless—handling of a crisis with Russia over the pro-Russian breakaway republic is raising plenty of questions.

The doubts being raised challenge not only his judgment in ordering Georgian forces into South Ossetia (a move that triggered the Russian assault) but also about the Bush administration's approach to backing a young, nationalistic democrat whose actions have fed the deepest tensions between Washington and a resurgent Moscow since the end of the Cold War........

Still, State Department officials were troubled last year by Saakashvili's willingness to send police against unarmed protesters and an opposition TV station and to rule, for a time, under a state of emergency.

In recent months, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and other officials are said to have warned Saakashvili against taking any military moves that could provoke Moscow, especially a thrust into South Ossetia.

It is unclear how firmly the message was delivered, but their advice seems to have been ignored'

From a report by Thomas Omestad yesterday

'Why Washington Has Embraced Georgia's Embattled President
But in taking on Russia, Saakashvili may have misjudged the depth of U.S. support'


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 02:37 PM

The Russians don't need to use nukes to damage the US. All they have to do is turn off a few pipelines and damage a few more.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 02:46 PM

Saying that the South Ossetians broke the cease fire so therefore we can't trust what we say is a perfect example of one sided thinking. We have seen (according to the members of the joint peacekeeping forces) that it was not the South Ossetians who broke the cease fire, but in fact that Georgians who broke the cease fire.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 02:48 PM

Correction...

Saying that the South Ossetians broke the cease fire so therefore we can't trust what they say is a perfect example of one sided thinking. We have seen (according to the members of the joint peacekeeping forces) that it was not the South Ossetians who broke the cease fire, but that in fact it was the Georgians who broke the cease fire. So it's the Georgians whose word cannot be trusted.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 02:53 PM

It's also a perfect example of circular thinking.


The South Ossetians broke the cease fire.

No they didn't.

How do you know?

The South Ossetians said so.

You can't trust the South Ossetians. They broke the cease fire.


But in this case, it's not just the South Ossetians who say so.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 02:56 PM

500!

It was a minor miracle that outside intervention had some success in Bosnia. However, that was after 3 years of exhausting uncivil war.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 03:00 PM

CarolC,


"(according to the members of the joint peacekeeping forces)"

Who consist of WHOM?


The Russians and the South Ossetians?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 03:21 PM

And Georgians and members of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) mission.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Emma B
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 03:40 PM

I posted this reort yesterday -

'People insist that a terrible barrage struck the city late Aug. 7 and continued into the morning -

- accounts supported by Western monitors who were also forced into their cellars.

Even buildings used by the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe were damaged, one severely.'

There were eight or nine OSCE monitors in South Ossetia prior to this conflict Russia has agreed to the deployment of a bigger international monitoring mission in and around Georgia's disputed region of South Ossetia, the head of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe said today.

'OSCE chairman Alexander Stubb, the Finnish foreign minister, said the plan called for the immediate dispatch of 20 military observers to Tbilisi'   ..... International Herald Tribune


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 04:48 PM

Emma,

NONE is disputing that Georgia attacked Tbilisi. The question is whether they did so in reaction to attacks by South Ossetians on Georgians, earlier.

As for the "joint peacekeeping forces", who said what, when? I have not seen anything from the Georgians that were members, that there were no earlier attacks by South Ossetians.


DOn't tell me that Georgia attacked Tbilisi- THAT is agreed by both sides- TELL ME why they did so- was it because they were reacting to an attack or not? Or are you going to be mindreading them again?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Emma B
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 05:10 PM

'WHAT WERE THEY SMOKING IN THE WHITE HOUSE?'

one explanation


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 05:11 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/19/georgia.russia.war/index.html

"The conflict began when Georgia launched a large-scale attack on South Ossetia on August 7 after a week of what it said were separatist attacks on Georgian villages that border the enclave. Russian troops responded in force the next day, pouring across the international border with hundreds of tanks and armored vehicles and driving into Georgia from South Ossetia and Abkhazia, another Russian-backed separatist territory.

The fighting has devastated parts of Georgia and South Ossetia, with many casualties reported. The U.N. refugee agency said more than 158,000 people had been displaced by fighting in Georgia, mostly from districts outside the breakaway territories where the fighting began. Watch how Georgians are being affected by the conflict »

Both Russia and Georgia accuse the other of ethnic cleansing during the conflict. "


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 09:08 PM

Once again...

According to the South Ossetian Interior Ministry, on August 7 Georgia started ground fire and shelling of the South Ossetian capital Tskhinvali from the village of Nikozi. Then, according to Tskhinvali, the shelling and shooting at the South Ossetian village of Khetagurovo was started from the Georgian village of Avnevi. About 10 people were killed and another 50 received various wounds. The Georgian media, however, reported that the South Ossetian side had been shelling the Georgian villages of Avnevi and Nuli for three hours. According to the information of the Joint Peacekeeping Forces in the conflict zone, it was the Georgian side that started firing first. Also, there were reports that Russian peacekeepers were fired on.

The Joint Peacekeeping Forces in the conflict zone said that the Georgian side started firing first


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 09:21 PM

And the Georgian government said that they were responding to South Ossetian attacks. Can't you read?

"a week of what it said were separatist attacks on Georgian villages that border the enclave."

"Georgia's all-out assault on South Ossetia was preceded by attacks by Ossetian forces against Georgian troops earlier in the week, including a separatist ambush with rocket-propelled grenades on a Georgian armored personnel carrier that killed two soldiers and injured six, Georgian authorities said. On Thursday, a separatist mortar attack on the village of Avnevi killed eight Georgian civilians.

Thursday evening, Saakishvili called for a cease-fire and urged separatist leaders to resume talks on a peaceful settlement. But when separatists began shelling Georgian villages after Saakashvili's cease-fire call, Georgian leaders decided to move ahead with the assault.

"Separatists opened fire in response to yesterday's peaceful initiative of the president of Georgia," said Georgian Prime Minister Lado Gurgenidze in a televised address. "As a result, lives of civilians were under threat."

Speaking Friday on CNN, Saakashvili accused Russia of provoking Georgia into attacking South Ossetia, an intimation that Russia engineered the separatist shelling of Georgian villages late Thursday. "Most decision-makers have gone for the holidays," an apparent reference to the opening ceremonies of the Summer Olympics in Beijing. "Brilliant moment to attack a small country.""

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-080808-georgia-ossetia-webaug09,0,4176197.story



"The Joint Peacekeeping Forces in the conflict zone said that the Georgian side started firing first "

Let me see- Russians, South Ossetians, Georgians- the Georgians object to the conclusion, but are outvoted. Must be nice to have such faith in one side.

So Russia and the South Ossetians have nothing to gain by lying, but the Georgians DO?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 09:24 PM

from your post:

"The Georgian media, however, reported that the South Ossetian side had been shelling the Georgian villages of Avnevi and Nuli for three hours."


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 09:30 PM

"'WHAT WERE THEY SMOKING IN THE WHITE HOUSE?'"


                   Emma - Almost immediately after the unpleasantness started, Poland agreed to the missile bases. Maybe that's where they were going all along. Convinced the Georgian government that if they started something with Russia, the US would bail them out. Let it happen, and pleaded ignorance--it wouldn't take many stage props to convince the American public that George W. Bush was ignorant--and they never really cared what happened to Georgia in the first place.
                   Now they've got the missile bases and Georgia's got the shaft. Cheney and Bush are good at this--with their "dumb cop/smart cop routine.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 09:30 PM

"The United Nations Security Council convened an emergency session early Friday at Russia's request to discuss the conflict in South Ossetia, but could not reach an agreement on Moscow's call for a statement that would have required both Georgia and South Ossetia to renounce the use of force."



BOTH, not just Georgia-

A rugged, heavily forested region nestled in the foothills of the Caucasus Mountains, South Ossetia has existed as a de facto independent state within Georgian territory since a bloody civil war with Georgia in 1991-92. No country recognizes its statehood, but Russia supports the region economically and has maintained a military presence there.

It is one of two breakaway republics in Georgia: the other, Abkhazia on the Black Sea coast, is also run by a separatist government and survives with the help of strong economic and political backing from Moscow.

When Saakashvili took power, he pledged to Georgians that he would return the country's separatist regions back into Georgia's fold. He succeeded with another Black Sea breakaway region, Ajaria, where he ousted a Moscow backed separatist leader in 2004.

But years of negotiations with separatist leaders in Abkhazia and South Ossetia have proved fruitless. Saakashvili has offered those governments broad autonomy in exchange for allegiance to Georgia, but Abkhaz and South Ossetian leaders have insisted on full-scale independence or absorption into Russia.

Georgia's all-out assault on South Ossetia was preceded by attacks by Ossetian forces against Georgian troops earlier in the week, including a separatist ambush with rocket-propelled grenades on a Georgian armored personnel carrier that killed two soldiers and injured six, Georgian authorities said. On Thursday, a separatist mortar attack on the village of Avnevi killed eight Georgian civilians.

Thursday evening, Saakishvili called for a cease-fire and urged separatist leaders to resume talks on a peaceful settlement. But when separatists began shelling Georgian villages after Saakashvili's cease-fire call, Georgian leaders decided to move ahead with the assault.
......


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 09:42 PM

The Georgian government cannot possibly be responding to attacks from anyone else if they are the ones who fired FIRST.

I'm definitely not the one on this thread who can't read.


First means nobody did it before the Georgians did it. They did it first, and everybody else did it after. First means first... not second, or third, which is what it would be if they were firing in response to someone else (who are the ones who would have been first had the Georgians been firing in response.

Once again, according to the peacekeeping forces, Georgia fired first. Not second, not in response to someone else.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,beardedbrucew
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 09:50 PM

"The Georgian government cannot possibly be responding to attacks from anyone else if they are the ones who fired FIRST."

Since they did not fire first, yours is a strawman argement.



"I'm definitely not the one on this thread who can't read."

Yes, you are. See my posts -


"First means nobody did it before the Georgians did it. They did it first, and everybody else did it after. First means first... not second, or third, which is what it would be if they were firing in response to someone else (who are the ones who would have been first had the Georgians been firing in response."

That is what it means, but you have no evidence that it is TRUE- So, another strawman.

"Once again, according to the peacekeeping forces, Georgia fired first. Not second, not in response to someone else. "

And according to the Georgians, the South Ossetians fired first- you know- First means nobody did it before the South Ossetians did it. They did it first, and everybody else did it after. First means first... not second, or third, which is what it would be if they were firing in response to someone else (who are the ones who would have been first had the South Ossetians been firing in response.



YOU make the claim that the Russians are telling the truth, in spite of their vested interest in making a lie, buit that the Georgians are lying, because of their interest.

I claim only that we DO NOT KNOW who is telling the truth- But we should find out BEFORE deciding who is the responsible party.

It is up to you to prove that the Russians are telling the truth- or else cease to make unjustified claims as to who is to blame.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 09:50 PM

And as I said before (but apparently someone can't read), the peacekeeping forces included members of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) mission.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,beardedbrucew
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 09:50 PM

"The Georgian government cannot possibly be responding to attacks from anyone else if they are the ones who fired FIRST."

Since they did not fire first, yours is a strawman argement.



"I'm definitely not the one on this thread who can't read."

Yes, you are. See my posts -


"First means nobody did it before the Georgians did it. They did it first, and everybody else did it after. First means first... not second, or third, which is what it would be if they were firing in response to someone else (who are the ones who would have been first had the Georgians been firing in response."

That is what it means, but you have no evidence that it is TRUE- So, another strawman.

"Once again, according to the peacekeeping forces, Georgia fired first. Not second, not in response to someone else. "

And according to the Georgians, the South Ossetians fired first- you know- First means nobody did it before the South Ossetians did it. They did it first, and everybody else did it after. First means first... not second, or third, which is what it would be if they were firing in response to someone else (who are the ones who would have been first had the South Ossetians been firing in response.



YOU make the claim that the Russians are telling the truth, in spite of their vested interest in making a lie, buit that the Georgians are lying, because of their interest.

I claim only that we DO NOT KNOW who is telling the truth- But we should find out BEFORE deciding who is the responsible party.

It is up to you to prove that the Russians are telling the truth- or else cease to make unjustified claims as to who is to blame.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 09:52 PM

According to people who are not Georgians, South Ossetians, or Russians (The members of the OSCE), Georgia fired first. So that makes the Georgians liars.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 10:00 PM

reference for that claim - WHO was it that said it?

SOURCE, please.

When I search for OSCE and comments, I do not find any such claim. Please let me know where it is.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 11:03 PM

Well, BB, I don't know what you consider an objective source. But one I respect greatly, in addition to the reporting in the WSJ ( as opposed to the editorials) is the Economist.

Economist 10 Aug 2008, p 11., start of article "Russia resurgent": On the night of August 7th, Mikheil Saakashvili, Georgia's president, embarked on an ill-judged assault on South Ossetia, one of his country's two breakaway provinces."

Georgia "embarked".

What's more, anybody who could read would have seen many citations, including on this thread, that Saakashvili proclaimed that when elected president, he would bring South Ossetia back into Georgia, ending its de facto autonomy. Foolishly, he actually tried to do what he promised.


More from the same article: " Mr. Saakashvili is an impetuous nationalist who has lately tarnished his democratic credentials. His venture into South Ossetia was foolish and possibly criminal". Despite this, the Economist prefers him to Putin--as any reasonable person would do. But they do, as noted above, cite him as the instigator of the August 2008 crisis.

The argument over who started it is pointless anyway. As I've noted, as long as all sides operate on the rule: "We must respond to any provocation"--and all sides are willing to read provocation into just about anything, the problem will never be solved.

But anybody--GWB to pick a purely theoretical example--who blusters about how Georgia's "territorial integrity" --which includes South Ossetia and Abkhazia--must be "restored" is a pathetic creature. It's time to wake up and realize there is no force on earth which can compel this. And it's emphatically not worth going to war with Russia over. Or do you perhaps believe it is?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 11:05 PM

Why does the source matter?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 11:06 PM

My last was in response to the 19 Aug 08 - 10:00 PM post.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 11:11 PM

Ron is right.

Bush and McCain can bluster all they want. No one is going to war with Russia over this. Blame who you want. Russia has won.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Paul Burke
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 03:34 AM

As Volgadon pointed out, the real danger is Ukraine, where the government's support is paper- thin, as is their mandate. The "Orange Revolution" is seen by Russia as western interference, and indeed overthrew a president whose policy was to develop closer ties with Russia. Many of the Ukrainian population are of Russian origin - some areas well over 50%.

This would not matter, had the government not early on adopted a nationalist policy which could be interpreted as making Russians into second- class citizens. Ukraine is also very dependent on Russia for energy.

It's quite probable that the Russians will use economic pressure to split Ukraine, and declare a "protectorate" over the Eastern areas. The best way to counter this is to embark on a policy of economic development which will benefit all Ukrainians, including Russian speakers, and secure their energy supplies.

Can the west do this, in a recession, when Europe has become dependent on Russian gas?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 05:13 AM

Re.. the proposed siting of the missile defence shield in Poland.

The Americans would have us believe that this is to protect the West from attack by a "rogue" state such as Iran.

As most people agree that Iran does not have nuclear weapons at present, or are likely to aquire them in the forseeable future, this excuse seems feeble.
In addition, any attack by Iran on the West would ensure its own immediate destruction by a counterstrike.

I think an all out war for energy will be waged by the West and this missile defence system is the first step in a programme to neutralise any military retaliation by Russia.
America is still the only country to have used nuclear weapons and have shown themselves willing to use them against a rival ideology in the Cuba Crisis.
I am quite sure the nuclear option will be considered very carefully by the people who run America, should their ideology and economic system come under thread from dwindling energy supplies...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 06:50 AM

I see the discussion between Carol and BB as having reached a point where it can no longer serve to advance the discussion helpfully.

I understand and agree with both points as summarized below.

BB - It is complex messy and we shouldn't be too quick to conclude who is at fault.

Carol - The wests response flies in the face of any fair assessment of the root causes of the conflict.


My view is that while I don't trust Putin (any more than any other politician) I don't blame the russians.

NATO seems to be suggesting that the Georgian atrocities in south ossetia can be overlooked as their actions were about asserting control over their own sovereign territory and Russia has no mandate to judge, let alone act.

Russia on the other hand seems prepared to overlook south ossetian atrocities committed under their noses in the area around Gori, no doubt on the basis that they are just getting a bit of revenge after the aggression of the Georgians.

In fact, the georgians and ossetians should both be getting their knuckles rapped for playing with peoples lives.

The fact they aren't could suggest that there is a power game going on between Russia and Nato ...

But my guess now is that they have just gone and got themselves entrenched, a bit like Carol and Bruce, and aren't listening to each other.

Russia should be withdrawing to the ossetian border and taking the ossetians with them.

Nato should be supporting russia and finding ways to work with her to bring peace to the region.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 07:29 AM

Guest, lox:

I agree that there is some entrenchment going on, but I think there were prepared positions, prepared by Russia well before the apparent onset of hostilities. The Ossetians have 'irregular' forces which have been raiding Georgian homes, persons and property after the retreat of the Georgian military. These had been regularly used as provocateurs.

Those monitoring the techno-war launched against Georgian command and control indicate that it started weeks before the military moves.

Meanwhile, it looks as if the United States is becoming entrenched in a position of finger wagging and pooh-poohing. It is difficult to see what the US is getting out of this, except to further move along a clearly confrontational path re: the useless missiles to Poland move, which clearly distresses the Russians, and which offers no profit.

The only profit I see at the moment goes to the McCain campaign which can posture without danger yet gain foreign policy cred.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 07:32 AM

A bit of insight as to why Russian troops are now beyond what is now internationally accepted--outside Russia--as the borders of South Ossetia:

20 Aug 2008 WSJ: (from article on this phenomenon:)

"In Soviet times Akhalgori" ( town in Georgia outside current South Ossetia " belonged to what was then known as the South Ossetian Autonomous Province. South Ossetia's provincial leaders proclaimed a secession from Georgia as the Soviet Union collapsed in the early 1990's. After fighting their self-proclaimed republic established control over the province's capital city and roughly 2/3 of the countryside."

"The South Ossetian government's writ never reached Akhalgori, which is separated from the rest of South Ossetia by a mountain range".

So, since this town was formerly part of South Ossetia--under Russia--the South Ossetian view is that they are simply restoring South Ossetia to its former borders in the Soviet era."

They call this move "restoring the constitutional order". And from their perspective, they are correct.

More from the WSJ:   "... the Ossetian takeover in the Akhalgori area was peaceful. There were no instances of looting or torching civilian homes here, residents said. Some stores remain open, power supplies continue, and Georgian civilians wander around undisturbed".

This sort of thing is why the border question is so complex--and why absurd statements like "Georgia's territorial integrity must be restored" are worse than worthless. The South Ossetians say it is their territorial integrity which must be restored-- and is now being restored.

As to why nothing to compel the restoration of Georgia's July 2008 borders is likely, another article from the WSJ: The UK is still the second-biggest contributor of troops to the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. But as to its stance on the current crisis in "Georgia", the UK "has shown no willingness to help rebuild the Georgian military. Instead the UK supports bringing Russia closer into the international fold--echoing views of other EU peers--and showing Russia that it has more to gain by being a partner than an aggressor."

"I am not one that believes that isolating Russia is the right answer to its misdemeanors" said UK Foreign Minister David Miliband, in a statement before the NATO meeting Tuesday. "I believe that the right response is hard-headed engagement."

If GWB cannot even get the UK to support his harsh line against Russia, who, aside from the former USSR satellites, can he get?




And I think a good case can be made for the idea that the most important issue here is that unrest be stilled so that any nuclear material in the areas affected does not fall into the hands of terrorists.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 07:36 AM

And as to whether McCain gets any benefit from the crisis, the question is how many voters realize his stance is just stupid blustering--with no way to back it up.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 07:52 AM

"And as to whether McCain gets any benefit from the crisis, the question is how many voters realize his stance is just stupid blustering--with no way to back it up."

Ron: the two propositions are identical. McCain gets a benefit when he gets more votes and more support, regardless of what you think about its legitimacy- That's politics!


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 07:54 AM

Obama is too polite to give McCain what he deserves.

He should say. OK tough guy, lets make this election about who wants to get in a shooting war in Russia. Either tell us how you would win such a war or shut up! McCain's time has passed. The neocons have lost. Its just that the New York Times and William Kristol don't know that yet. There are two superpowers again and Russia's energy reserves are a hell of a lot more powerful weapon than anything the had as Soviets. The European Union will be another super power, China and India are coming up fast.

McCain, wants Georgia to join NATO, The UK and Germany don't want to sign a treaty where Some petty dictator in a two bit back water can pull them into World War Three.

McCain wants to kick Russia out of G8 and bar them from WTO. Russia needs only to use its energy to get open trade with Europe, China and India. God help us if they turn the fuel in their bombs into nuclear power. They can sell their caviar and titanium to those countries. Maybe they will build airframes partnering with one of the Asian tigers for electronics.

If McCain wants to continue Bush's path, restarting the cold war, he's not going to have the easy time Reagan did.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Emma B
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 12:01 PM

Godwin's Law strikes again!

'The former US national security adviser, Zbigniew Brzezinski, has called on the world community to isolate Russia in protest over its campaign in the Caucasus, likening its tactics to those of "Hitler or Stalin".

Brzezinski, who was the national security adviser under President Jimmy Carter from 1977 to 1981, and is now an occasional adviser to the Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama, said the Russian prime minister, Vladimir Putin, was "following a course that is horrifyingly similar to that taken by Stalin and Hitler in the 1930s".'

guardian.co.uk, Tuesday August 12 2008

Leading politicians in France and Germany who expressed opposition to the unilateral foreign and military policy of the Bush administration and the expansion of NATO to include a country where (as recently as last year) anti-government protesters were confronted by riot police and special troops entered Imedi TV station, had possibly entertained hopes of a change of line as a result of the November presidential election.

On the issue of the US stance toward Russia, however, they have been sorely disappointed.

It appears that both the Democratic and Republican parties are seeking to outdo one another in their declarations of hostility toward Moscow.

Senate Foreign Relations Committee Chairman Joe Biden, fresh off a trip to the Republic of Georgia, said
"I left the country convinced that Russia's invasion of Georgia may be the one of the most significant event to occur in Europe since the end of communism,"
The senator also issued a terse warning to the former Soviet Union, saying that "Russia's actions in Georgia will have consequences."
- CBS News today


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 12:07 PM

thats pretty much the case Jack.
a lot of tough talk from McCain and Nato but really if anything this is more likely to lead to a breakup or weakening of Nato. Old Europe isnt so keen to do much against Russia, as they know they will freeze in the dark come winter. And they arent willing to go to war over a former soviet enclave.. Bush tried to buildup up Georgia as an ally, right in the Russian backyard, but when Sakashvili attacked Ossetia and the Russians hit back hard, it backfired. The Georgians feel betrayed - but the US certainly wasnt willing to escalate it.

and from the standpoint of Russian the west set the precedent with Kosovo. Basically there is no UN framework to break up a part of a country against its will - even though a part of its population might want to secede. Once that happened Russia said at the time it was going to back the same thing in Abkhazia and Ossetia.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 12:33 PM

"The neocons have lost."

While you and I are in agreement about 85% of the time, on this we disagree.

I will believe the neocons have lost when it does not take millions and millions of dollars to become President of the USA. Too many companies contribute so that in future they will have influence. They intend to get their money back in one form or other. Hell, just LOOK at the connections between big business and profit in this presidency alone.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 12:41 PM

I disagree with the synopsis that has been given of my position on this issue, and the reasons for my disagreement with the poster whose positions I have been disputing.

My position is that Georgia has been planning this invasion of South Ossetia for a long time, and that South Ossetia has a right to not only defend itself from Georgian acts of aggression, but also to be helped by Russia in doing so. Furthermore, I maintain that South Ossetia has as much right to self determination as Georgia has.

My dispute with the other poster is not over who started this round of hostilities, but rather, that the other poster's insistence that it was the South Ossetians who started it is not based in fact because the only documentation that has been presented in support of this has come from the government of Georgia, and also, that to try to narrow down the government of Georgia's reason for invading to a window of a few hours on August 7 is absurd. So far, I have not had an opportunity to show that this was where I was going because the other poster has not answered the question I posed in my 19 Aug 08 - 11:05 PM post.


Check this out - Saakashvili eats his tie...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kid379OjuC0


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 01:29 PM

CarolC,

You have made a claim that the Joint group, as a whole, have made a specific determination. Where does that statement come from? What is the source that you read, or did they call you personally?

If it is Russian press, I have a few more questions.




"
From: CarolC - PM
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 09:52 PM

According to people who are not Georgians, South Ossetians, or Russians (The members of the OSCE), Georgia fired first. So that makes the Georgians liars. "

WHERE DOES THIS STATEMENT come from?????


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 01:35 PM

Why does my source for that information matter?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 01:44 PM

Fine.

God says that the Georgians are not at fault- WHy does MY source for that claim matter???

On the OSCE:
"Such rush has become a common practice in the run-up to the OSCE's year-end meetings, particularly on issues involving "frozen conflicts"; and it tends to take the form of concessions to Russia as the stronger side.

The Joint Control Commission (JCC), which oversees the ceasefire in South Ossetia, met on November 16-17 in Ljubljana in the 13 year-old format: Georgia, South Ossetia, Russia, and Russia's North Ossetia region (a ratio of 3:1 against Georgia) plus the OSCE as observer. Opening the session, Rupel startled the Georgian delegation by endorsing the "existing mechanism" (a familiar Moscow phrase opposing internationalization of the format) and suggesting a "highest-level meeting" of those four parties to discuss settlement negotiations and related issues. Russia's envoy, Valery Kenyaykin, then fleshed out Rupel's proposal by calling for an urgent meeting among Presidents Vladimir Putin of Russia, Mikheil Saakashvili of Georgia, "president" Eduard Kokoiti of South Ossetia, and North Ossetia's head Taymuraz Mamsurov, to be held at Putin's residence in Sochi before the end of November (i.e., just days ahead of the OSCE's year-end conference) and to focus on political settlement issues. On cue, the South and North Ossetian delegates supported the proposal.

Rupel's and Moscow's proposal abruptly departed from the decision, reached at several JCC sessions (always in the OSCE's presence and with its approval, most recently in October 2005) on holding a meeting between Georgia's Prime Minister Zurab Nogaideli and Kokoiti to discuss demilitarization of the "conflict zone" and economic rehabilitation of South Ossetia. The Georgians had all along insisted logically on demilitarization to be achieved ahead of political-settlement negotiations, and for those political negotiations to be held in an internationalized format, not the Russian-dominated JCC."

So, 1. OSCE is only an observer
2. The four parties that vote on matters concerning Ossetia are biased 3 to 1 against Georgia,: Even if they vote against some statement, it will still pass.


Why are you hiding where you got this information that the Joint whatever says that Georgia is at fault, unless it comes from a disreputable source?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 01:49 PM

I'm asking why the source for my material matters. I see the question is not being answered.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 01:53 PM

Because I do not trust you to have reported the "statement" accurately.


Aug 7th statement at the OSCE


Thew one I have found so far indicates the South Osetians at fault. So, show me the source of the one YOU claim indicts the Georgians, or I will presume you are youst making it up.

Last chance ( You have declined three times)


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 01:58 PM

Is that all? Just want to make sure that it's reported accurately? Ok. Here it is...

http://www.russiaprofile.org/page.php?pageid=CDI+Russia+Profile+List&articleid=a1218643038

According to the information of the Joint Peacekeeping Forces in the conflict zone, it was the Georgian side that started firing first.


The Joint Peacekeeping Forces are composed of members of the OSCE, South Ossetians, Russians, and Georgians.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 02:01 PM

OSCE warns Russia against jeopardizing Georgia sovereignty
10:15 | 03/ 07/ 2008
   


ASTANA, July 3 (RIA Novosti) - The OSCE Parliamentary Assembly adopted a resolution on Thursday urging Russia to avoid steps that compromise Georgia's sovereignty in its breakaway provinces.

Members of parliament from the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe's 56 member states are currently meeting in Kazakhstan's capital, Astana, for their annual session.

The resolution on Russia, passed by a 61-15 vote with 29 abstentions, follows Georgian claims that Russia has assumed de facto control over the province of Abkhazia, the focus of a long-running row between Moscow and Tbilisi.

Earlier this week Abkhazia closed off its border with the rest of Georgia, following a series of explosions that it blamed on Georgian security forces.

In March this year, Russian lawmakers recommended that 'missions' be opened in the two territories, sparking a furious response from Georgia, which accuses the Kremlin of trying to annex Abkhazia, along with South Ossetia, another breakaway province.

Relations between Russia and Georgia have been strained since Russia stepped up support for the breakaway Georgian republics in April. The pro-Western government of Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili has said it is determined to bring the breakaway regions back under its control, while Moscow says Tbilisi's policies could lead to new bloodshed.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 02:07 PM

Russia Profile is published by the RIA Novosti News Agency, Moscow, Russia


Sounds like more propaganda- you won't take Georgia's word, but you do take Russia's?


"According to the information of the Joint Peacekeeping Forces in the conflict zone, it was the Georgian side that started firing first."

As stated, the joint forces are heavily biased ( 3 to 1 ) against the Georgians

Fireing first WHEN? I have said that GEORGIA invaded South Ossetia- BUT after the South Ossetians attacked Georgians first. There is NO indication that that is not the case- not from a reputable source.



But thank you for telling me which set of lies you have chosen to believe.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 02:12 PM

the rest of the paragraph with your quote:

"According to the South Ossetian Interior Ministry, on August 7 Georgia started ground fire and shelling of the South Ossetian capital Tskhinvali from the village of Nikozi. Then, according to Tskhinvali, the shelling and shooting at the South Ossetian village of Khetagurovo was started from the Georgian village of Avnevi. About 10 people were killed and another 50 received various wounds. The Georgian media, however, reported that the South Ossetian side had been shelling the Georgian villages of Avnevi and Nuli for three hours."

So one side votes itself to be innocent, and you are willing to accpt it because.... Why? The Russians have since lied about withdrawal from Georgia, and are presently still advancing in Georgia dispite the statement that they are not.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 02:20 PM

Food aid sent in to suffering Georgian area
Wednesday, August 20, 2008 11:15:29 AM
By CHRISTOPHER TORCHIA

A convoy of badly needed food aid for beleaguered Georgians rumbled through a Russian checkpoint Wednesday, waved through by soldiers who themselves showed no signs of fulfilling their president's promise of a pullback within two days.

A top Russian general, meanwhile, said Russia plans to construct a series of checkpoints manned by hundreds of soldiers in the so-called "security zone" around Georgia's de-facto border with the breakaway territory of South Ossetia.

The Russian-backed separatist region was the flashpoint of fighting this month that brought Russian troops deep into Georgia. A cease-fire that calls for both sides to pull back to their positions before the brief war allows Russia to maintain troops in a zone extending more than four miles into Georgia from South Ossetian line.

Col. Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn, deputy head of the Russian general staff, told a briefing Wednesday that Russia will build a double line of 18 checkpoints in the zone, with the posts in the front line to be manned by about 270 soldiers.

The plans clearly show that Russia aims to solidify control of South Ossetia. The province for now technically remains a part of Georgia, but Russia has said it will accept whatever South Ossetia's leaders decide about their future status -- which is almost certain to be either a declaration of independence or a request to be incorporated into Russia.

The nine flatbed trucks carrying aid rolled through the Igoeti checkpoint about 30 miles west of the capital, Tbilisi. Igoeti one of the deepest Russian penetrations into Georgia since fighting broke out in South Ossetia nearly two weeks ago.

The Russian seizure of Gori and villages in the region has left thousands of people with scarce and uncertain food supplies. The convoy of aid from the U.N.'s World Food Program could last for a few days.

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev has said his troops will complete its withdrawal from Georgia by Friday, but few signs of movement have been seen other than the departure of a small portion of the troops who have held the strategically key city of Gori, another 25 miles west of Igoeti.

The Russian forces in Georgia appear to be aiming to weaken Georgia's military through the detention of personnel and destruction of equipment before they withdraw as promised.

On Tuesday, Russian forces drove out of the Black Sea port city of Poti with about 20 blindfolded and bound Georgian prisoners -- identified by local officials as soldiers and police -- and seized four U.S. Humvees. They reportedly were taken to a Russian-controlled military base nearby, and Georgian Interior Ministry spokesman Shota Utiashvili said Wednesday they still were being held.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Emma B
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 02:21 PM

The United States is seeing "early signs of some withdrawal," but the pace of the pullout "needs to increase sooner rather than later," said National Security Council spokesman Gordon Johndroe, cited by U.S. media.

    Johndroe made the remarks on Air Force One as President George W. Bush flew from his Crawford ranch in Texas to a speech to veterans in Florida.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 02:21 PM

I would reverse that question and ask why we are expected to accept the assertion that Georgia only invaded South Ossetia in response to attacks from South Ossetians, since the only source for this assertion is the government of Georgia. If we are not to rely on sources that are biased, and if the government of Russia is biased, then the same standard applies to the government of Georgia. They cannot be trusted as an unbiased source of information about who attacked whom and when.

And for this reason, it is ridiculous to try to suggest that Georgia only bombed and invaded South Ossetia in response to attacks from South Ossetia and that we are expected to accept that just because the government of Georgia says so. Almost all of the media in the US and elsewhere are saying that Georgia bombed and invaded South Ossetia specifically for the purpose of taking back that territory, and that the Government of Georgia has had that intention since 1992. Which is what I have been arguing all along.

Nobody has to accept any assertions coming from the government of Russia. But if someone expects us to accept what the government of Georgia has to say about it, and then that person turns right around and says that we shouldn't accept what the government of Russia says about it, that person is engaging in hypocrisy.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 02:25 PM

CarolC,

I have stated that we should look at what BOTH sides are saying, and have not decided who is at fault- YOU have declared Georgia to be to blame- so show some trustworthy facts, or just admit you do not know which side is at fault ( like I do: The CLAIM that the Georgians make is as valid as the CLAIM that the Russians make)- so why do YOU chose to take one as truth and the other as lie, unless the voices are telling you something the rest of us cannot hear?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 02:27 PM

more:

Nogovitsyn, the Russian general, indicated his forces may not return the U.S. vehicles, which had been waiting at Poti to be shipped home after being used in recent U.S.-Georgia military exercises.

Asked about U.S. demands that Russia return seized weaponry to the Georgian military, he said "we don't intend to give up trophies."

Nogovistsyn said that 64 Russian soldiers were killed in the fighting and 323 were wounded. Russia previously had said 74 soldiers were killed and 170 were wounded in the conflict.

Georgian officials have said they lost 160 soldiers and that 300 are missing. Russia claims Georgian losses are much higher.

Civilian casualties remain unclear. South Ossetian officials on Wednesday said 1,492 civilians in the breakaway province had been killed.

The investigative committee of the Russian prosecutor general's office on Wednesday confirmed 133 civilian deaths in South Ossetia, but said it could not be sure of a complete figure because many victims had already been buried.

Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili said Tuesday that Russia was not only flouting its withdrawal commitment but that its forces were "not losing time" in damaging Georgia by destroying infrastructure.

However, the two nations exchanged 20 prisoners of war -- 15 Georgians and five Russians, according to the head of Georgia's Security Council -- in an effort to reduce tensions.

On the diplomatic front, NATO foreign ministers suspended their formal contacts with Russia as punishment. Secretary-General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer said "there can be no business as usual with Russia under present circumstances."

But the NATO allies, bowing to pressure from European nations that depend heavily on Russia for energy, stopped short of more severe penalties being pushed by the United States.

The Russian Ambassador to NATO, Dmitry Rogozin, dismissed the impact of the emergency meeting in Brussels, Belgium: "The mountain gave birth to a mouse."

Sens. Joe Lieberman and Lindsey Graham were headed to Tbilisi on Wednesday, where they were to meet with Brig. Gen. Jon Miller and his team, who only recently arrived themselves to assess the humanitarian needs in Georgia


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 02:30 PM

Russians dig in as pullback drags on in Georgia By MIKE ECKEL, Associated Press Writer
1 hour, 26 minutes ago



SACHKHERE, Georgia - Russian forces on Wednesday built a sentry post just 30 miles from the Georgian capital, appearing to dig in to positions deep inside Georgia despite pledges to pull back to areas mandated by a cease-fire signed by both countries.

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev says his troops will complete their pullback by Friday, but few signs of movement have been seen other than the departure of a small contingent that have held the strategically key city of Gori



http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080820/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_russia


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 02:42 PM

I have shown plenty of trustworthy facts. There is plenty of independent verification that Saakashvili campaigned on the promise that he would take back South Ossetia and Abkhazia , and that he has consistently said that that is what he intended to do (some of which I have produced, and some of which has been produced by others). That's all the trustworthy facts we need.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 03:01 PM

"...Saakashvili campaigned on the promise that he would take back South Ossetia and Abkhazia."

He does not have to take them back because they are part of Georgia. The UN and all other international bodies, including the OSCE mentioned above, recognize those two areas as part of Georgia. Only Russia and some militants within those regions claim otherwise.

BTW, the Russians seem to have bribed the Ossetians with full medical, dental and retirement coverage as other Russian citizens have even though the Ossetians have not paid into the system. Russia has been "tampering" with this group of people of a long time.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 03:11 PM

He campaigned on the promise that he would take back control of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, which amounts to the same thing.

The South Ossetians have always wanted to rejoin North Ossetia. The Russian government doesn't have to do anything to bribe them to want this.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 04:20 PM

Inspiration And Danger In Georgia

By Michael Gerson
Wednesday, August 20, 2008; Page A15

The nation of Georgia is a place of inspiration and danger. I saw both in a single hour.

I was in Tbilisi's Freedom Square during President Bush's visit in May 2005, along with Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Assistant Secretary of State Daniel Fried. During the Georgian national anthem, the speaker system broke down and tens of thousands of Georgians movingly sang that song without music -- a song that had been illegal to sing under Soviet occupation.

It is shocking to imagine those joyful people now bombed, fearful and occupied.

At the same event, an assassination attempt was made against President Bush. A man threw a grenade wrapped in a handkerchief. Bush was behind a bulletproof shield but within the blast radius of the weapon. The grenade was live but did not explode -- or maybe the explosion in Georgia was just delayed.


A few days ago I spoke with Ambassador Fried -- one of America's finest diplomats -- on his way back from Georgia, after tense negotiations. Sounding exhausted from a "tough few days," he described the French-sponsored cease-fire as flawed but important. He predicted that in 10 years the invasion would be seen as a strategic mistake because it will have branded Russia "as a rogue." Of the Russian government, he vented: "Picking on weak Georgia -- is this the thing that makes them proud?"

Georgia badly miscalculated in this crisis. President Mikheil Saakashvili believed he could quickly gobble up his breakaway provinces through military force, just as he did in Georgia's southwest four years ago. He is a hothead who acted against American advice.

But it was Russia that provoked this provocation, for which it was thoroughly prepared. In December 2007, Russia suspended its adherence to a treaty that required it to report the massing of its troops along borders. Two months before the invasion, hundreds of Russian engineers were engaged in repairing railroad bridges eventually used by Russian troops.

Vladimir Putin is a leader defined and consumed by his grievances, from European missile defense to Kosovo. And now he has adopted the ideology and tactics of the schoolyard bully -- trying to restore Russian self-respect by beating up the weak. It is pathetic and dangerous in equal parts. It has also been a military success. Bush administration officials are now debating how to turn Russia's tactical victory into a strategic defeat.

In the short term, this involves denying Russia some things it wants, such as a coup that deposes Saakashvili. It also involves achieving some things Russia doesn't want, particularly the deployment of international monitors and eventually peacekeepers in the breakaway regions. Russian troops, after all, are not peacekeepers but combatants.

But there also needs to be a broader strategic consequence for Russia. Russia is attempting to combine 19th-century adventurism with membership in 21st-century international institutions. America needs to prove that is not possible -- to demonstrate that there is no place for czarism in the Group of Eight or the World Trade Organization.

Few question this goal, but there are many questions about the method. Does a direct assault on Russia's prickly pride make things worse or better? Should America pick a bruising public fight over G-8 membership or simply begin acting through the G-7, as Secretary Rice has already begun to do? Should America announce its opposition to Russian WTO membership, or merely stop pushing for it?

The worst option would be to excuse Russia by blaming ourselves. NATO expansion did not cause Russian belligerence. The desire to be part of NATO in liberated Europe was fueled, in part, by a justified fear of Russian belligerence. Citizens of the Baltic states, for example, are now glad that NATO expanded with relative speed, or they might be next on Putin's list. Again and again in European history, there has been a temptation to sacrifice the freedom of small countries to the interests of great powers. And it generally hasn't worked out very well, for them or for us.

Georgia has been foolish. But Russia's crude overreach has had one good effect -- revealing the courage of others. Poland has quickly upgraded its relations with America, even under nuclear threat from Russia. Ukraine has been defiant, even though Russia still makes claims on Crimea. These nations have recent memories of Russian national "pride." And their courage should provoke our own.


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Emma B
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 04:40 PM

Wednesday, November 07, 2007
Riots in Georgia, please pray

Havemirrc: weblog

Well, we were warned by the US embassy that there were soon to be political disruptions in Georgia with many protests going on. They told us not to worry but just to avoid certain areas of the city.


So on Friday it started, there was an official protest from the opposition party to the government which was supposed to only last one day…it is still going on however. Thousands of people are gathering for now more than five days of rallying to get the president to resign. The main street downtown in front of parliament building has been closed since Friday and has really disrupted all traffic and made even more gridlock in the metropolitan area, with about 2 million people population. There has been lots of chaos and confusion as a result of this.

The group was asking the government to make changes but they keep adding to their list of demands so much so that they now sound like terrorists. President Saakishvili is not giving in and will not give an early election or resign.

There has been increasing rioting in the streets, mob scene starting fighting against the police, and then the special forces came and started shooting teargas and threatening to shoot high pressured water to get the people away. The number of rebels is growing each day now too which started with a few thousand then 30,000 protesters and I am not sure how many now at present time.

People are getting scared, wanting to take kids out of school, or leave the city. It is not looking good at this time. Please pray for Georgia! They have made so much progress with the current president who has done much to help the country economically, socially, and developing many programs for its good to stay independent from Russia. If things are shaken up now, there is no telling what will happen to Georgia.

We really need your prayers!

Just fyi, we live far from the rioting and are obeying the warnings of going further downtown at this time, don't worry. God is good all the time and will protect us.

Posted 11/7/2007 5:06 AM -

'those joyful people'?


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Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 05:10 PM

And what about lasting solutions?

By lasting solutions I mean where civilians interests are served in Georgia, Abkhazia and Ossetia.

I don't mean the states of Russia or America or Georgia or Abkhazia or Ossetia being put in their place or being liberated.

By Civilians interests I mean peace and the preservation of human rights.

That is whay I am starting to disagree with both Carol and Bruce.

Getting bogged down in a whodunnit and consolidating a seige mentality are not good