You can't do that there 'ere

Subject: You can't do that there 'ere
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 07:33 AM

One for club managers & MCs, past and present. Have you ever:

a) taken a performer (paid or unpaid) on one side and asked them to do something different another time?
b) taken a performer (paid or unpaid) on one side and asked them not to come back?
c) actually stopped a performer in mid-flow and told them to sling their hook?

If so, why? What were they doing & why was it inappropriate?

(Yes, I've got a reason for asking, but I'll see what answers come up first.)

Subject: RE: You can't do that there 'ere
From: Mr Happy
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 07:43 AM

Not exactly, but been on the other side of the picture, having had club organisers praise our contributions on siners nights & being told they'll give us a booking.

Then never hear a dicky bird any time after!

Subject: RE: You can't do that there 'ere
From: Leadfingers
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 07:55 AM

I know of one 'Singaround' organiser who tells the singers which song to sing ! Or at least (In MY case) tries to !

Subject: RE: You can't do that there 'ere
From: Leadfingers
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 08:29 AM

On the same point , I know Club Organisers who will NOT book Robb Johnson 'Because all his songs are TOO Political' while I know Robb has a wealth of Non Political Songs which he does in clubs that do not expect (OR Want) an evening of Serious Socialist material .

Subject: RE: You can't do that there 'ere
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 08:55 AM

I once had to tell a lady guitarist that while she would be welcome at the club at any time, I would not be asking her to play again. She could barely pick out a tune and it was becoming embarrasing for the audience each week. I tried to tell her gently and diplomatically but she really went off on one and never spoke to me again (neither did she show up at the club again)
Some years later at another club that I was involved with I had to tell some young chap, whom I had told at the beginning of the interval that he would start the second half to give him plenty time to prepare, that he was down to one song as he spent his time on stage tuning and generally pissing around and wasting time allotted to other performers and the expensive guest for the night. I wasn't too popular with the rest of the committee for doing that as he was a bit of a darling of their's and they thought his incompetence endearing. Other club members supported me however.
On the other hand some forty two years ago my mate and I were cut short in our first folk club appearance as we had managed to convince this club that we were guest material when we had hardly sung outside of our own living rooms. A couple of months later a well known club organiser asked me to tell this same mate that he wouldn't be getting another sing at his club as he was tone deaf!!

Subject: RE: You can't do that there 'ere
From: Bee
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 09:21 AM

Ah, but with all your complaints, you do have clubs to go to. Here in NS, where folk is concerned, we must pretty much make do with kitchen parties, a few annual private outdoor events, and one folk festival per year.

Subject: RE: You can't do that there 'ere
From: GUEST,No Fixed Abode
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 09:22 AM

We once went along to a club to watch a friend of ours perform as the main guest. Our friend asked us to perform a couple of songs before he started the second half, after we had finished the organiser came up to us and said "I hope you are not looking for a booking here as you are not good enough". This took us back as we were not looking for a gig!
I guess the proof of if we are good enough or not is in this link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPJCHrHAwlM

As you may have guessed we have not been back to the club……..life is to short!

Pip if you work hard enough you will meet the "moron" just wish them well and get on with enjoying your life.



Una and Tony

Subject: RE: You can't do that there 'ere
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 09:41 AM

There is someone in one of the clubs I go to, who is fine when singing a capella, decent when playing a whistle or bodhran, and devlishly bad when he/she picks up the guitar (as he/she is wont to do these last 2 years). Never in tune (the guitar that is), always the same two chords, and he/she bends whatever song he/she performs to fit those two chords. Cringingly bad.

And yet - none of us would tell him/her to stuff the effing guitar. Why? Because the same person was actually a poor singer - but became decent with practice. Ditto for the whistle and the bodhran. And he/she is having fun, and supports the club regularly (on guest nights too). And even if the guitar work does not improve with time, it is a small enough price to pay on singers' nights for giving someone a little pleasure. We just clap harder and heap praise when he/she is NOT using the guitar.

So - who's perfect?

Subject: RE: You can't do that there 'ere
From: Doktor Doktor
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 11:16 AM

Not I ...
There's a sensitive balance between encouraging someone who's going to benefit and improve and someone who's a perfect disaster. Ain't easy.
Those who saw it will never forget the Irish lady in the Cambridge club tent circa 1988, who brought on "some friends I met in the Guiness tent". The well-lubricated band hi-jacked her first song with a somewhat extended middle 8(pp 57 - 106 of O'Neill's omitting only pages 86 & 92). As a kind of revenge she attempted all 89 verses of 'The Bard's Tribute to O'Carolan' sung in a deliberate, stately falsetto. The efforts of the poor organiser to encourage, cajole and finally chase her off were classic farce, assisted by encouraging cheers from the standing regulars at the bar.

Subject: RE: You can't do that there 'ere
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 11:50 AM

As an audient, I and my friends were asked by the club organiser to 'not join in so loudly' so that others could 'have a chance'....

The artist overheard the comment and started his second set with 'Do you want one you can all join in with?' whilst looking the organiser squarely in the eye.

Good old Les Barker... bless his little Mancunian cotton socks!

Oddly enough, I have never been back to that club and I'm pretty sure, neither has Les.

LTS

Subject: RE: You can't do that there 'ere
From: Barry Finn
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 11:55 AM

We have a guy that sings in our weekly session. The session is a mix of half tunes & half songs & it's quite a mix. Shanties, ballads, chorus stuff from variuos cultures. He writes songs, maybe 5 or 10 (hopefully he'll get better or stop). Thank God he writes because he kills "Long Black Veil" & "Lilly of the West" & whatever he hasn't written. He sings off alot & the songs he writes really suck, he only has a few so week after week he sings them over & over again. Only thing is like George was saying above, he has gotten a little better at singing & he has improved a little bit on the writting. But at everyone else's expense. He's encouraged, applauded & giving positive feedback. I can't bring myself to give him any positive reenforcement. I sang a few of my own songs, which I hardly ever do & he came by & said if I could sing & write like that he'd do his own stuff all the time (which he does anyway). I thanked him & politely replyed that I don't do my own stuff much because I don't want to push it down other people's throats when they want variety, that it's not fair of me to subject others to my tastes only. He never got it & I wished that I had been harder on him but I couldn't.

Could a few of you cross the pond & take this guy outside for me & the rest of us & break his heart? Please! Just joking,,, I don't expect anyone to clean up our own mess. But if you happen to be in the area!

Barry

Subject: RE: You can't do that there 'ere
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:15 PM

Sorry Barry - it hasn't worked on certain people here, pretty sure it wouldn't work on your guy.....

Believe me, we've tried!

LTS

Subject: RE: You can't do that there 'ere
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 04:00 PM

Leadfingers - what does this person (try to) tell you to sing? Does the approach work better on others? I like the idea of 'conducting' a singaround - "And for our next song, we'll have Spancil Hill, sung by... you, sir."

Subject: RE: You can't do that there 'ere
From: GUEST,spb-cooperator
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 05:36 PM

I was asked once not to do any long unaccompanied songs - in an evening where some perfomers were doing long guitar intros before getting to the song......

Subject: RE: You can't do that there 'ere
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 05:26 PM

Many years ago, a fellow singer once told me how he was called aside by the manager and told to depart a club forthwith and never return. He was a handsome, though mild-mannered sort and not much given to bad language or risque' material. I asked what he could have done to get such a reaction. He said, "Long story; you'd have to ask his girlfriend."

Subject: RE: You can't do that there 'ere
From: GUEST,Dr. Quelch B.s A., C,L I.P.S.
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 11:53 AM

George P,
          Could you let us know the gender of the person of whom you speak or does that person present such a conundrum that you cannot be sure. I think we should be told.

Subject: RE: You can't do that there 'ere
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 10:47 AM

...refresh...

Seems like gentle words of discouragement are pretty rare, and that they're mainly aimed at people who aren't giving a very good performance. What I was wondering about was whether anyone's ever suggested to a performer that they were playing the wrong kind of music. Anyone?

Subject: RE: You can't do that there 'ere
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 10:47 AM

OK, so: nobody's ever taken a performer on one side and said (for want of a better phrase) "You can't do that there 'ere", on the grounds that they were playing the wrong kind of music. Like, for example, not playing anything you consider to be 'folk'.

Are the 'folk police' a myth? Or do they just not read Mudcat?

Subject: RE: You can't do that there 'ere
From: Leadfingers
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:09 AM

I was once told on entering a 'Folk Club' "You cant bring THAT in here , its a Folk Club" pointing at my nice white Calton guitar case
Does THAT Count Pip ?
And apologies for the Late PM !

Subject: RE: You can't do that there 'ere
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:40 AM

Nobody ever seems to appreciate it when I call out "Close enough for folk!" when they're halfway through tuning up. Bunch of musos...

Subject: RE: You can't do that there 'ere
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 12:44 PM

Only just seen this thread - I was off on me rambles when it first appeared.
Following on from the comments made by Gearge Papavgeris; I remember, way back, a young group - four of them, I think - doing a floor spot. Three guitars and a fiddle. Not very good, vocally or instrumentally, and I remember thinking that the fiddle player was the only one who might have anything resembling embryonic talent. That fiddle player persevered, and is now a highly respected musician. No names - no pack drill. I wonder what would have happened if they had been told "don't bother - you're rubbish".
(Actually, the lead singer, if it was who I think it was, also developed into quite a decent singer).
As regards being told what to sing/not to sing, I got a booking at a club, after doing a floor spot with the harmonium, and the organiser said something like "I don't think we'd want a whole night of just the harmonium". Well, I would have been using other instruments anyway, but I was puzzled as to why a whole night of songs with the harmonium would be any worse than a whole night of songs with the guitar. I normally take the harmonium out to do floor spots - on a first visit to a club at least - and usually I'm more or less the only person NOT playing the guitar. No objections to the guitar - I play it myself, but why should it be more acceptable than the harmonium/fiddle/banjo etc?
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: You can't do that there 'ere
From: CupOfTea
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 01:53 PM

In a song circle with a very few regular members, one of our number was a gentleman who has more enthusiasm than skill. He collected old & amusing sheet music (I still have my "Chiquiata Banana" song) and wanted us to sing it. HE couldn't sing them, he expected those who were more musically adept to be able to make it happen for him. He attemted to play a few things on ukelele, with excruciating results.

Our reticence to critique only encouraged him to do bring more and more obscure things. He had no sense of self critique and forced it upon us. We started gently with suggestions on how he could learn to sing on key. Mentioned that none of the rest of us brought songs to the song circle that we weren't able to sing (or sing and play). Nothing kind or gentle got through. We finally drew the line at "if you want us to do a song, someone has to know it, or you have to be able to present it in real time (without three do overs). He left in a huff. He never came back. We all felt bad in between having a much easier time singing things.

Joanne in Cleveland

Subject: RE: You can't do that there 'ere
From: BB
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:44 PM

One of the hardest things I've ever done, as a singaround MC at a festival, was to ask someone who'd been coming to the singarounds for years, and whose singing, with or without guitar, was quite acceptable, even enjoyable, to not use what, for want of a better word, was a 'backing tape' (sorry, that was two words). She'd got the accompaniment played by her son, who wasn't at the festival, on tape, and sang to that. I'm afraid most people were plain embarrassed as it just seemed so inappropriate, so after the second night of it happening (it was a week long festival), I felt that I had to say so, trying to be really nice about it and compliment her usual performances. Sadly, I'm afraid we never saw her again, which really saddened/s me.

Barbara

Subject: RE: You can't do that there 'ere
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 07:43 PM

No objections to the guitar - I play it myself, but why should it be more acceptable than the harmonium/fiddle/banjo etc?

Convention - the acoustic guitar exerts a powerful gravitational pull on folkies, and when it doesn't audiences often think it should. A few years ago I saw a frustratingly mixed set by a performer I won't name, combining some absolutely stunning trad. instrumental work with some new songs, which to my ear sounded unoriginal, overdone and generally dreary. I noticed the other day that this person's got a new CD out, consisting entirely of original songs with guitar. Damn shame in my view, although clearly plenty of people disagree.

Subject: RE: You can't do that there 'ere
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 08:23 PM

Pip Radish

Convention - the acoustic guitar exerts a powerful gravitational pull on folkies

Really? It's considered a bit of a novelty round here.

Subject: RE: You can't do that there 'ere
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 03:08 AM

You wait till the skiffle boom hits Lewes.

Subject: RE: You can't do that there 'ere
From: Folkiedave
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 04:16 AM

Are the 'folk police' a myth?

Yes.

Last time I heard it perpetuated - it was by Kate Rusby in fact she banged on about it.

Subject: RE: You can't do that there 'ere
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 05:43 AM

We had a skiffle band at the Lewes Arms last year. They didn't get a very good turn out which is a pity because they were very good. I hadn't realised that the tea chest bass could actually be a musical instrument.

Subject: RE: You can't do that there 'ere
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:22 PM

Dr Quelch, the gender of the person was purposely onbscured to protect him/her, as it is immaterial to the story.

BB, the case of the backing tape rings a bell in my head. I must have come across that person... Now I'll spend the rest of the evening trying to remember!