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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Pappy Fiddle Date: 09 May 25 - 07:21 PM Ha ha that's me laughin'. The song about the "Bug-eye Sprite". My brother had an Austin-Healey Sprite. We drove it up to Pt. Magoo to see the air show. Good times. I'm laughing because later I bought a Fiat Spyder. In the 18 months I owned it I think I replaced every moving part. But when my girlfriend climbed in, she sat there and then started laughing. Why? Because it reminded her of the little cars at Disneyland. |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Jack Horntip Date: 09 May 25 - 08:02 AM There was good old times in Salt Lake 1916. Cowboy Songs and Other Frontier Ballads by John A. Lomax. A verse from "The Bull-Whacker". pp.71-72. See here: https://archive.org/details/cu31924014386092/page/n101/mode/2up?q=%22hog+eye%22 |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Jack Horntip Date: 07 May 25 - 04:30 PM ... song have rather explicit racist and sexual references, Sing Out - Volume 30 [1984] - Page 25. Snippet view only. Anyone have access to the full article? |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Jack Horntip Date: 07 May 25 - 03:43 PM Hi, Email by Steve Gardham to the Ballad-L email list serv. Posted to the Camouflaged shanties, Pt. 7 (long) thread Jul 25, 2005. |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Jack Horntip Date: 07 May 25 - 03:30 PM An American shanty group called The Boarding Party sang a stanza at Mystic 2005. Paul Stamler quotes Jonathan Lighter on the BALLAD-L email list serv. in the Camouflaged shanties, Pt. 7 (long) thread. I don't currently have access to the original emails. |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Jack Horntip Date: 07 May 25 - 02:25 PM I HAVE A DOG HIS NAME IS FRITZ 2001. The TLP [Training Leadership Program] Hymnal MS-Word file. US Air Force training program songbook. pp.60-61. |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Jack Horntip Date: 07 May 25 - 02:11 PM Rastus 1993. Transcribed from the The Sault Antler's Rasty Drinking Songs CD done by The Sault Antler's Men's Chorus. |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Jack Horntip Date: 07 May 25 - 01:52 PM I KNOW A DOG WHOSE NAME IS ROVER c2000. NORTHALLERTON R.U.F.C. SONG BOOK. Compiled by CHRIS MARTIN. Retrieved April 23, 2004 from http://www.nrufc.com/images/songs.pdf |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Jack Horntip Date: 07 May 25 - 12:27 PM The related "Sally in the Garden" version ballad index entry.https://balladindex.org/Ballads/CSW067.html I am only familiar with this variant from rugby circles. No "Hog Eye" mentioned...
Sally in the GardenDESCRIPTION: Dance tune with chorus "Sally in the garden sifting sand/Sally upstairs with a hog-eyed man"; floating verses: "Chicken in the bread pan kicking up dough"; "Sally will your dog bite, no sir, no/Daddy cut his biter off a long time ago"AUTHOR: unknown EARLIEST DATE: 1917 (Cecil Sharp collection) KEYWORDS: sex dancing nonballad animal floatingverses FOUND IN: US(Ap,MW,SE,So) REFERENCES (6 citations): Cohen/Seeger/Wood-NewLostCityRamblersSongbook, p. 67, "Hog-eye" (1 text, 1 tune) Brown/Belden/Hudson-FrankCBrownCollectionNCFolklore3 232, "Sal's in the Garden Sifting Sand" (1 fragment) Sharp-EnglishFolkSongsFromSouthernAppalachians 250, "The Hog-eyed Man" (1 fragment, 1 tune) Darling-NewAmericanSongster, pp. 254-255, "Hogeye" (1 text) NorthCarolinaFolkloreJournal, James Ruchala, "'Sally Ann' and the Blue-Ridge String-band Tradition," Vol. LIV, No. 2 (Fall-Winter 2007), pp. 29-75, "Sally Ann" (fragments of text on pp. 32, 34, 35, 37, 53, 54, 61; tunes on pp. 66-70; most are just a few lines, often fiddlers' mnemonics; some are "hog-eye man" fragments; many might file with "Sally Anne" or "Sally in the Garden") ADDITIONAL: James P. Leary, Compiler and Annotator, _Wisconsin Folklore_ University of Wisconsin Press, 2009, article "Kentucky Folksong in Northern Wisconsin" by Asher E. Treat, pp. 247, "Sally in the Garden (1 short text, 1 tune, sung by Mrs. M. G. Jabobs) Roud #331 RECORDINGS: Theophilus Hoskins, "Hog Eyed Man" (AFS, 1937; on KMM) New Lost City Ramblers, "Hogeye" (on NLCR03) Pope's Arkansas Mountaineers, "Hog Eye" (Victor 21295, 1928) CROSS-REFERENCES: cf. "Roll the Boat Ashore (Hog-eye I)" (many floating verses) cf. "The Hog-Eye Man" (words) cf. "Granny Will Your Dog Bite?" (words, part of tune) NOTES [162 words]: This is part of a cluster that includes the bawdy song "The Hog-Eye Man," another Arkansas dance tune "Hogeye" ("Row the boat ashore with a hogeye, hogeye/Row the boat ashore with a hogeye man"), "Granny Will Your Dog Bite" and others. I've used the "Sally in the Garden" title to differentiate the dance tune from the bawdy song, even though they're clearly siblings. - PJS Paul in fact has strongly suggested merging "Sally in the Garden" and "Roll the Boat Ashore (Hog-eye I)." Roud appears to lump the two. There are verses floating freely between both, which means that fragments often cannot be identified with one or the other. Nonetheless, they appear to me to be different though related songs; the choruses are different, and if all the lyrics float, that is decisive. Still, one should check the cross-references to be sure to find all the versions. The mention of a tune from Arkansas is interesting, because Treat notes a town in Arkansas called "Hogeye." - RBW Last updated in version 6.1 File: CSW067 Go to the Ballad Search form Go to the Ballad Index Instructions The Ballad Index Copyright 2025 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle. |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Jack Horntip Date: 07 May 25 - 12:09 PM Ballad Index entry: https://balladindex.org/Ballads/RL401.html
Hog-Eye Man (I), TheDESCRIPTION: The Hog-Eye Man [read: "The Vagina-hungry Man"] meets Sally or Jenny or Molly who is lying in the grass or the sand and who does good service with him.AUTHOR: unknown EARLIEST DATE: 1922 KEYWORDS: bawdy shanty sex FOUND IN: US(Ap,So) REFERENCES (12 citations): Randolph/Legman-RollMeInYourArms I, pp. 401-404, "The Hog-Eye Man" (8 texts, 1 tune) Colcord-SongsOfAmericanSailormen, p. 104, "The Hog-Eye Man" (1 text, 1 tune) Harlow-ChantyingAboardAmericanShips, pp. 54-55, "The Hog-Eye Man" (1 text, 1 tune) Hugill-ShantiesFromTheSevenSeas, pp. 269-272, "The Hog-Eye Man" (3 texts & several fragments, 3 tunes) [AbEd, pp. 199-200] Sharp-EnglishFolkChanteys, V, p. 6, "The Hog-Eyed Man" (1 text, 1 tune) Kinsey-SongsOfTheSea, pp. 58-59, "Hog's-Eye Man" (1 text, 1 tune) Sandburg-TheAmericanSongbag, pp. 410-411, "The Hog-Eye Man" (1 fragment, 1 tune, evidently bowdlerized) Terry-TheShantyBook-Part1, "The Hog's-eye Man" (1 text, 1 tune) Browne-AlabamaFolkLyric 123, "As I Went Down to Mas' Cornfliel'" (2 fragments, 1 tune, too short to really identify and filed here mostly because one of the informants through it unsuitable for public performance) Bush-FSofCentralWestVirginiaVol5, pp. 17-18, "Sally Ann" (1 text, 1 tune) DT, HOGEYEMN* ADDITIONAL: Captain John Robinson, "Songs of the Chantey Man," a series published July-August 1917 in the periodical _The Bellman_ (Minneapolis, MN, 1906-1919). "The Ox-eyed Man" is in Part 4, 8/4/1917. Roud #331 CROSS-REFERENCES: cf. "Sally in the Garden" (the "clean" version of this piece) ALTERNATE TITLES: The Ox-Eye Man The Hogs-Eye Man The Hawks Eye Man Oh, Who's Been Here? NOTES [135 words]: Ed Cray explains "hog-eye man" as one deeply interested in sex. Sandburg-TheAmericanSongbag explains a "hog-eye" as the barges that traveled from the Atlantic ports around Cape Horn to San Francisco. A "hog-eye man" would therefore be a crewmember of such a barge. Give the length of the voyage around the Horn in the 1850s, the two definitions may not be mutually exclusive. This overlaps very much with "Sally in the Garden" -- so much so that Roud lumps them, and it is often hard to tell which song a fragment goes with; better to check both. - RBW "Oh, Who's Been Here?" is quoted by Hugill, from a shanty which Cecil Sharp gave in the Journal of the Folk Song Society. Hugill only quotes one line, which has the same melody and very similar words as "Hog-Eye Man" though not the usual "Hog-eye" chorus. - SL Last updated in version 6.0 File: RL401 Go to the Ballad Search form Go to the Ballad Index Instructions The Ballad Index Copyright 2025 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle. |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Jack Horntip Date: 07 May 25 - 11:48 AM This song has two Roud numbers #331 and #10346 ("Mary in the kitchen punching duff..") Roud #331 also includes the opening line "Sal's in the garden siftin' sand.." and " Sally's in the garden with the hog-eyed man..." which match up with Roud 10346. Roud 331: https://archives.vwml.org/search/all:combined/0_50/all/score_desc/extended-roudNo_tr:331 Roud 10346: https://archives.vwml.org/search/all:combined/0_50/all/score_desc/extended-roudNo_tr:10346 |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Jack Horntip Date: 07 May 25 - 10:35 AM pig’s ass, in a, prep. phr., not at all; "Yes you 1942. Supplement to Rural Dialect of Grant County, Indiana, in the 'Nineties by William L McAtee. p.7. Privately published booklet. See here: https://archive.org/details/1945-to-c-1960-w-l-mcatee-and-his-printed-booklets/page/n3/mode/1up?q=pig%27s+eye |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Lighter Date: 05 May 25 - 12:38 PM Here's a "hog's eye" that seems to euphemize a familiar, if crude, expression: Southern Standard (Arkadelphia, Ark.) (Oct. 26, 1871): "The ship of state is safely moored - in a hog's eye!" |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Gibb Sahib Date: 03 Jan 24 - 11:43 AM More detail on singing "Hog Eye" at the end of the North Carolina Convention of 1868. Wyoming Democrat, 6 May 1868: 1. // Just prior to adjournment a “delegate” struck up “John Brown’s Body,” with great unction, lining out the song from a Freedman’s Bureau missionary hymn book. In joined the saints and up rose the chorus. At first the negroes in the gallery looked on in amaze, but pretty soon they too began to sing and the uproar grew tremendous. “Old John Brown” gave way to “Hail Columbia,” and that in turn to “O! say yeller gal can’t yer come out to-night,” and then all were swamped in the roaring air of “Hog Eye,” a favorite negro corn-shocking melody which begins “Sal’s in the garden siftin sand” and has for its second line a rhyme too indecent to repeat. Fired by this, the saints joined all hand round and executed a war dance to the chorus, “And a roly, sholy, bool, An a hog-eye, And a roly, sholy, bool, An a hog-eye. For Sal’s in de garden sifting sand,” &c. And thus did the North Carolina congressional redestruction “convention” disport itself in its closing hours. // |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Gibb Sahib Date: 03 Jan 24 - 11:21 AM "Hog Eye" in a shipboard setting, in fiction. Note the early date. “Tricks That Are in Vain.” The Portland Daily Press [Portland ME], 5 September 1874: 4. // The good captain was in high glee over the result of his morning’s work, and as a relief to his feelings invited Jake [Pendergrast, the mate] down to another interview with the case bottle in the cabin, after which he broke forth into song in these words, (and no tune in particular): “Oh, a hog-eye ship and a hog-eye crew, And a hog-eye mate and a captain too, Oh, a railroad nigger and a hog-eye ma-a-a-n, All you want is a hog eye man.” This sentimental ballad he accompanied by a wild and uncouth dance of his own invention, and Mr. Pendergrast, catching the enthusiasm of the hour, joined in the chorus and patted his leg and stamped his foot to assist his superior officer in marking the time. // |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Gibb Sahib Date: 03 Jan 24 - 11:18 AM An anti-Union parody of "Hog Eye" from the Confederacy. The Shreveport Semi-Weekly News, 3 June 1862: 4. “Lincoln’s ‘Hog Eye’ Dream.” AIR – “The Hog Eye.” One night Abe Lincoln had a dream, It was a mighty droll ‘un— He thought he saw Potomac’s stream With big black niggers rollin’. Chorus—Row a boat ashore, de hog eye Row a boat ashore, de hog eye Row a boat ashore! de hog eye Hurrah for Abram’s hog eye! [etc] |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Lighter Date: 02 Jan 24 - 10:02 AM Probably unnecessary to say that if the paper's editor had any reason to suspect that the word "hogeye" might be indecent, he'd never have allowed it into print. |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Gibb Sahib Date: 02 Jan 24 - 03:05 AM Here's "hog eye" again in the context of a corn shucking song: "I can't get along with a hog-eye gal." Folsom, M. M. “A Corn-Shucking.” Kanabec County Times [Minnesota], 24 November 1887: 4. (It appears to be reprinted from the Chicago Tribune from at least a half-year earlier.) The description—here necessarily remembered, since corn shucking bees died out with slavery—is much like dozens of others. The narrator offers two songs in sequence before getting to this third example led by the captain (song-leader) while the shucking competition continued. "Jay bird died wid de whoopin’ cough, Sparrer died wid de colic; ‘Long come er frog wid a fiddle on ‘is back, ‘Quiring de way to de frolic. [refrain] O, can’t git erlong wid er hog eye, Can’t git erlong wid er hog eye, Can’t git erlong wid er hog eye gal, An’ I can’t git erlong wid er hog eye. Ca’led Miss Sue to de ball las’ night, Sot ‘er down to suppah, She fainted ‘n’ ovah de table fell An’ stuck ‘er nose in the buttah. Can’t git erlong wid er hog eye, Can’t git erlong wid er hog eye, Can’t git erlong wid er hog eye gal, An’ I can’t git erlong wid er hog eye. Sont fo’ de doctah to fotch er to, An’ he wus sump’n latah, She stuck er tu’key bone ‘n’er eye, ‘N’ got choke to deaf on er tatah. Can’t git erlong wid er hog eye, Can’t git erlong wid er hog eye, Can’t git erlong wid er hog eye gal, An’ I can’t git erlong wid er hog eye. …The master of the house, and generally the ladies, and some of the neighboring planters would assemble at a little distance and enjoy the corn-shucking and the wild songs quite as much as the negroes." |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Gibb Sahib Date: 31 Dec 23 - 04:14 AM The Charleston Daily News, 17 April 1868: // The North Carolina Convention adjourned with an uproarious dance to the indecent negro corn-shucking song of “Hog Eye.” // |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: ripov Date: 27 May 23 - 09:09 PM as a guess, "hog-eyed means 'high on opium see<'https://www.nam.ac.uk/explore/opium-war-1839-1842> the chinese lighters used for unloading cargo(in this case opium) have eyes painted o them,sd a hogeye man might be a master of one of these vessels or maybe the"bumboats" which ferried working girls(who nay well have sold opium as a sideline) out to large ships for the crews recreation.Navvies were commonly not just"niggers" but Irish, Chinese Kanakas and filipinos, certainly poorly paid labourers-although they seem to have had sufficient pay to spend on recreation in the bars plentiful in ports |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Jack Horntip Date: 26 May 23 - 04:53 PM I Have A Dog Called Rover Transcribed from the LP The Irish Sing Rugby Songs, ca 1968. The tune is "Gathering Nots in May". |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Jack Horntip Date: 26 May 23 - 04:07 PM 35 MARY Song #35, pg 41-42, Hash Music 1986. No tune indicated. I have been *told* that this is The Hog-eye Man, and some of the verses posted above match, but I think this is another song which share some floating verses with The Hogeye Man. |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Lighter Date: 24 May 23 - 05:24 PM "Cleaned out" |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Lighter Date: 24 May 23 - 04:36 PM Daily Evening Item (Lynn, Massachusetts), July 21, 1906: "'Your father cleaned put a whole barnful of hog-eyes in Tenawanda [sic] in '48.' "'What is a hog-eye, Judge?' "'That used to be a tough name for a canal driver.'" (The later form was "hoggie," origin unknown till now.) |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 24 Mar 21 - 05:21 AM The term came into usage as an equine conformation reference (see my previous.) We use "pig eye" today. The first nautical usage we have so far comes generations later as a pulp fiction ahem... forebitter war cry(?). Whall did not get one thing right about the well documented history of the Califonria gold rush. His sea-booted n*ggers and hog-eye barges are not exceptions to that rule. Hokum is the word you're looking for there. |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: GUEST,# Date: 23 Mar 21 - 04:45 PM Thanks, Lighter. Anyone checking Lighter's link, it's 'fixed' here thread.cfm?threadid=4743#2347020 |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Lighter Date: 23 Mar 21 - 04:19 PM Check out my posts on this thread: /mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=4743#2347020 and upthread here. |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: GUEST,# Date: 23 Mar 21 - 03:58 PM It might help if someone with access to the OED (Oxford English Dictionary) could see when the term hogeye, hog eye, or hog-eye first entered the language. |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: GUEST,Fiddlecraig Date: 23 Mar 21 - 03:30 PM Just read through this thread- interesting to note that the ONLY source of information regarding the supposed “SanFrancisco barges/sloops and their crews is Captain Whall. If you read through carefully you’ll see that every detailed reference uses some form of his language. In fact, I have never seen this reference anywhere from any other source, and the seeming ubiquity is entirely based on Whall’s assertion. If anyone has an earlier or independent reference to “hog eye barges,” I’d like to see it. This single-source origin should make us skeptical of definitive statements that there were boats or barges called “hog eyes” on San Francisco Bay in the Gold Rush era. Whall may simply have been spinning a yarn to cover the sexual reference. |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: GUEST,Mike Yates Date: 09 Jun 20 - 04:34 AM I cannot see any reference to two short songs recorded in the Bahamas in 1935 by Alan Lomax and Mary Elizabeth Barnicle, which have been issued on the CD Deep River of Songs - Bahamas 1935. Ring Games and Round Dances (Rounder CD1832). These are: SAND GONE IN MY CUCKOO-EYE Oh, Sand Gone in My Cuckoo-Eye Who says so? I say so, I say so WASP BITE NOBI ON HER CONCH-EYE A wasp bite Nobi on her conch-eye A wasp bite Nobi on her conch-eye Oh, run here, Mama, come hold the light See these Germans gone fight tonight Wasp bite Nobi on her conch-eye A note to the first song says, 'Note that 'cuckoo-eye' is sometimes replaced by 'neat-eye'. According to Nicolette Bethel, it is probable that these are old-fashioned regional expressions that refer to infidelity. A similar note to the second song says, 'Here 'conch-eye' may refer to the female genitals'. |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 09 Jun 20 - 03:52 AM Slight drift but relevant: The Charles Hare Lighter “The Nature of the Boat Sand was still banked firmly around the lighter's hull, helping to hold it together. The hull, spanned by one deck beam well aft of midship, remained intact. Overall, the boat is roughly 23 ft. long by 9 ft. wide by 3 ft. deep. I immediately confirmed that it was a lighter?—Gary had been right. We recognized these little barges from panoramic photographs of Yerba Buena Cove in the 1850s, showing its shallow waters filled with ships in various states of abandonment. The lighters were used during a brief period from 1849 to 1854 as the only means to carry people or goods ashore, and the several dozen lighters in operation would have been much in demand. As privately-built piers jutted into deeper water to accommodate large ships, the utility of lighters diminished, rendering them obsolete by the mid-1850s. From subsequent laboratory testing, we found that the Hare lighter was built from a species of beech native to Chile and parts of Argentina. In the earliest days of the Gold Rush, Chilean entrepreneurs owned many of the storage ships and early port infrastructure. The boat was almost certainly shipped from Chile to be nailed together on the muddy shoreline of Yerba Buena Cove.” |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 09 Jun 20 - 03:48 AM A little San Francisco naval science: 31 July 1846 – Population of Yerba Buena, Alta California doubled on arrival of the Brooklyn and 240 Mormon migrants. 30 January 1847 – Yerba Buena officially renamed San Francisco. 24 January 1848 – Gold discovered at Sutter's Mill, Coloma, California. California entered the Union not so much as a “Free” state but an anti-slavery one. It was practiced as a crime, not an institution. That said, the place was in no way welcoming to free African-American migrants. About half the 300.000 migrants came overland. The others either via Panama or around the Horn. No barges either way. With the exception of the bar at the mouth of the Sacramento River, it was steamboat draft all the inland way to Sacramento. On paper, the United States had just taken the port from Mexico. In practice in was a South American managed facility. USN Lt. W.A. Bartlett, the first U.S. citizen Alcalde, was chosen partly for his fluency in Spanish. The various waterfronts that replaced the earlier lighter scows and barges are still called embarcadero today. |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 09 Jun 20 - 03:45 AM Yank Carl Sandburg has Whall's 'hog-eye' barges rounding Cape Horn proper. By 1966 they're all over the place: “As a matter of fact Whall, 'Seaman of the Old School,' gives an explanation of the word 'Hog-eye' without any obscene entanglements. He plainly states that it was a type of barge invented for the newly formed overland trade which used the canals and rivers of America at the time of the Gold Rush (1850) onwards). A 'Ditch-Hog' was a sarcastic phrase used by American deepwatermen to denote sailors of inland waterways such as the Mississippi and Missouri as opposed to foreign-going Johns. [Hugill] |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 09 Jun 20 - 03:44 AM First mention of a vessel/crew type (?) and first n-bomb attached to the lyric. Also some of the hokum/bowdlerization - authorship/copyrights context running through other threads at the moment: “Now, seamen who spent their time in cargo-carrying sailing ships never heard a decent Shanty; the words which sailor John put to them when unrestrained were the veriest filth. But another state of things obtained in passenger and troop ships; here sailor John was given to understand very forcibly that his words were to be decent or that he was not to shanty at all. (As a rule, when the passengers were landed and this prohibition was removed, the notorious "Hog-Eye Man" at once made its appearance.) The consequence was that in those ships the old-time Shanties were sung to their proper words, and most of the good ones had a story in verse that never varied, though in a long hoist if the regulation words did not suffice, a good shanty-man would improvise to spin out. It was in these vessels—and these only—that a collector of songs was wanted, and it was only in such vessels that a collection could have been made. Such a collection was made, both of Songs and Shanties, by me. Other compilers of collections of songs have in some cases taken songs from this book without acknowledgment. It must be understood that all rights are rigidly reserved both as to words and music....” “THIS shanty dates from 1849-50. At that time gold was found in California. There was no road across the continent, and all who rushed to the goldfields (with few exceptions) went in sailing-ships round the Horn, San Francisco being the port they made for.This influx of people and increase of trade brought railway building to the front ; most of the " navvies" were negroes. But until the roads were made there was a great business carried on by water, the chief vehicles being barges, called "hog-eyes." The derivation of the name is unknown to me. The sailor in a new trade was bound to have a new shanty, and this song was the result: Oh, go fetch me down my riding cane, For I'm goin' to see my darlin' Jane! And a hog-eye rail road nigger, with his hog-eye! O the hog-eye men are all the go, When they come down to San-Fran-cis-co, In a hog-eye, etc. Now, it's "who's been here since I been gone?" A railroad nigger with his sea boots on, And a hog-eye, etc. O Sally in the garden picking peas, Her golden hair hanging down to her knees, And a hog-eye, etc.” [Ships, Sea Songs and Shanties, 2nd ed, Whall, 1913] |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 09 Jun 20 - 03:37 AM “Harry and Rodrigo followed, and soon found themselves under a portico, in company with the cloaked stranger, and three or four of his comrades. An angry crowd of Mexicans were yelling and shouting at no great distance, a furious mob of one of the most vindictive races on the continent of America—cowardly and brutish. “Be ready!” said the commanding voice of the officer of the “Sea King.” At , the same moment he gave a shrill whistle, louder than of a boatswain's in a storm, and next instant a large body of men came rushing with drawn cutlasses and singing, in seaman twang, some doggrel lines then popular— Sally in the garden, sifting sand, Jenny talking with a hog-eyed man; In a hog eye, In a hog eye, For all she wants is a hog-eyed man, With a heave oh, heave oh! Heave oh in a hog eye. Either the unearthly sound of the forecastle ditty, or the sight of the cutlasses, had a magic effect. The Mexicans drew back to a respectful distance, shouting, but making no attempt to attack either officers or men.” [St.John, Percy B., The Scourge of the Seas, Ch.V, Vera Cruz, (British Boys' Paper, 30 June 1888, p.284)] Is this is Hog-Eye's earliest brush with pirate opera, a 'forebitter war cry?' |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 09 Jun 20 - 03:33 AM Another pre-minstrelsy equine conformation reference: “Byron, you know, said the hand was the true test of blood. Why did he not include the eye, the ear, the mouth, the nostril? Who ever saw the thoroughbred mare, or horse, with the hog eye – sole-leather ear – African mouth, and chunk-bottle nose?” [Spirit of the Times, NY, 8 April 1837, p.60] |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: leeneia Date: 08 Jun 20 - 07:50 PM I believe there is a whirlpool(s) in the ocean off New England which is referred to as a hog-eye. I encountered it in detective fiction, and to my amazement it actually exists. Up to that point, I had thought whirlpools were myth. You can see whirlpools in motion in YouTube videos. |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Thompson Date: 07 Jun 20 - 03:24 PM Men's creativity in their synonyms for women's… túdalíní… never cease to become more weird. |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: r.padgett Date: 07 Jun 20 - 01:56 PM My post was as I state a copy/paste from Wikipedia ~ there are other statements if anyone cares to look Thanks Ray |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Lighter Date: 07 Jun 20 - 12:37 PM "Euphemism" is hardly the right word. "Dysphemism" is more like it. Concerning the minstrel song, at least: 19th century databases show that "hog-eyed" was a southern (American) term for "having small or squinting eyes." One newspaper contrasts it with "buck-eyed" (modern "bug-eyed"). The simplest explanation is that the original "Hog-Eyed Man" in both the minstrel song and the popular fiddle tune, was simply a squint-eyed or small-eyed fellow. As a kind of barge in use in San Francisco Bay, "hogeye" must have been a pretty local term. It doesn't appear in either the American "Century Dictionary" of 1889 or the "Oxford English Dictionary" of any date. The original squinty guy must have been reinterpreted by those familiar with the sexual sense of "hogeye." Few of them could have been thinking of California barges, in either case. |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: r.padgett Date: 07 Jun 20 - 09:45 AM A Hog-Eye was distinctive flat-bottom boat or barge used in the shallow waters surrounding San Francisco Bay during the California Gold Rush, named from the dismissive name 'ditch-hog' applied to rivermen by deep-water sailors[citation needed] The term "hog-eye" was used in early blues songs as a euphemism for the female genitalia from Wikipedia Ray |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: EBarnacle Date: 06 Jun 20 - 06:13 PM Also, going back to Irish porcine reference, one of the tools that a navvie would use was an elongated pin or spike called a fid or, if a full length crowbar, known colloquially as a bulls prick. The relationship between a bulls prick and the Irish meaning of Hogeye would be a simple shift in usage. |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: EBarnacle Date: 06 Jun 20 - 06:06 PM There was mention above of deadeyes as a rigging part on sailing vessels. They are largely replaced by turnbuckles on smaller vessels but some training ships still use them. In the Germanic languages, including Danish and Norwegian, a deadeye is known as a Jungfrau or young woman/maiden. |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Thompson Date: 06 Jun 20 - 03:05 PM Navvy was indeed sourced from navigator: the same people who built the canals built the railways (the first railways often following the canals because there was no need of wayleaves, and the telephone lines ditto. They were neither common nor unskilled. In America, these working people were often Chinese; I've heard it said that a Chinese man died for every yard of railroad built. Irish people are still working in construction across Europe, whether as the engineers and architects designing projects or the skilled crane and drill and spade men and women fulfilling them. In fact, as recently as during the building of the Channel Tunnel it was said that there was more Connemara Irish spoken in the depths under the seas than there was English or any other language. |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: The Sandman Date: 04 Jun 20 - 04:58 PM A Hog-Eye was distinctive flat-bottom boat or barge used in the shallow waters surrounding San Francisco Bay during the California Gold Rush, named from the dismissive name 'ditch-hog' applied to rivermen by deep-water sailors. The term "hog-eye" was used in early blues songs as a euphemism for the female genitalia. he was a fellow who enjoyed female gentilia on a flat bottmed barge. So it takes all sorts, relatively harmless |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Lighter Date: 04 Jun 20 - 09:12 AM From Samuel L. Bayard, "Hill Country Tunes" (1944), p. 75: "Hog-Eye an' a 'Tater. "Played by Irvin Yaugher Jr, Mt Independence, Pa., Oct. 19 ,1943. As played by his great-uncle. ... "This is not the melody which accompanies the well known and often recorded sea shanty called 'Hog Eye' nor is it the play party song tune with a similar name known farther south (see Sharp-Karpeles, 'English Folk Songs from the Southern Appalachians,' II, No.250). A somewhat different version, with the parts in reverse order, is in Bayard Coll., No.288, from Greene County, where the title is simply 'Hog Eye,' and has an indecent meaning. "In Fayette County, this tune has the following associated rhyme: I went down to Sally's house, 'Bout ten o'clock or later; All she had to give to me Was a hog-eye and a 'tater. "The rhyme accompanying the set known in Greene County is: As I was going down the street, A pretty little girl I chanced to meet; I stepped right up and kissed her sweet, And asked her for some hog-eye meat. "No other sets of the tune are known to the editor." That pretty much says it. Terry is vindicated. |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 08 Dec 19 - 01:48 AM I've never heard of a 'hog eye' vessel type or the other naughty bits. Re: Appalachia, minstresly, camp town races &c - “Hoga, hogu, hige, hyge [Icel. hagr dexter, hagsynn prudens] Prudent, careful, anxious; prudens:–Hogo prudentes, C. R. Mt. 10, 16. Hoga wosan sollicitus, esse, C. R. Lk.12, 11. Hoga, hoge anxiety of mind, care, fear, R. Ben. 53, v. hige, oga. Hogan to take heed, v. hogian. [A Dictionary of the Anglo Saxon Language, Bosworth, 1838] “Among all the mis-awards at the late State fair we were scarecly more dissatisfied, than to find a crippled, hog-eyed, Eclipse colt, 2 years old, from Clinton county, taking a first premium over a fine little Bellfounder exhibited by Mr. Sullivant.” [Bellfounder Horses in Ohio, The Ohio Cultivator, Vol.IX, No.6, March 15, 1853, p.1 “...a queer looking, long-legged, short bodied, small-headed, white haired, hog-eyed, funny sort of a genius...” [Sut Lovegood's [sic] Daddy “Acting Horse,” The Mariposa Chronicle, No.47, Vol.1, December 8, 1854, p.1] Note: Harris describes the rider as he would the horse. “A horse with pig eye has a small eye, primarily an aesthetic issue, but claimed by some to be linked to stubbornness or nervousness.... There is actually a scientific explanation for this analysis. Most people think that a pig eye means the horse’s eye is smaller, but in actuality it’s the eye socket that is smaller. The size of the horse’s eyeball doesn’t change, just the skeletal structure surrounding it, dictating how much of the eye you see. It is thought that this limits the animal’s peripheral vision, which makes him more likely to be flighty or to bolt with very little provocation.” |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: EBarnacle Date: 07 Dec 19 - 06:01 PM Nice try, but that's a hawse pipe. |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: GUEST Date: 07 Dec 19 - 07:07 AM I Think a hog's-eye was the hole in a shop's bulwark through which rope was drawn. |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: GUEST,Hastings Pirate Date: 05 Apr 14 - 05:14 AM I've been singing this song for the past five years. I first heard it sung by Waterson, Carthy on the Rogues Gallery CD. I have Hugill's book and I've trawled the net and read the entire postings here. All leaving me none the wiser to the original meanings behind the song. Shanty's were work songs, sung to help pass the time, and keep the rhythm, for long arduous tasks. If you have ever been in a rugby club after a game, the songs that are sung are all explicit and are versions of some well known songs. There are as many versions of rugby songs as there are of shanty's. Where the song comes from, I have no idea. That the hogeye is a word for a vagina, makes sense. Nigger wasn't considered offensive, to whites at least, in the 1800's. That many black seamen worked on railways and had liaisons with white girls from small villages is entirely plausible. I think it is possible to imagine the original bawdy words. If you don't get them quite right I don't think it matters. |
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