'5000 Morris Dancers'

Subject: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 03:27 AM

SOME ENGLISH DANCES

English Country Dance, Clog Dance (Lancashire/Cheshire, Durham/Northumberland), Step Dance, Morris Dance (Cotsworld, Molly, Border, N.W. Clog Morris), Yorkshire Longsword, N.E. Rapper, Maypole Dancing, Helston Furry Dance (Cornwall), Great Wishford Grovely-Day Dance (Wiltshire), Whalton Baal-Fire (Circle) Dancing (Northumberland), 'Obby 'Osses (Cornwall and Somerset)

INSTRUMENTS OF (OR CLOSELY ASSOCIATED WITH) ENGLAND

Northumbrian Bagpipes (bellows blown), Leicestershire Bagpipes (mouth blown); English Concertina, Anglo Concertina, Duet Concertina (and important developments to – if not inventions of – other key-boards, such as piano and organ, have also occurred in England); Dital Harp/Harp-Lute, English Cittern; English Flageolet, Penny Whistle, Recorder/English Flute, Pipe and Tabor (old Morris accompaniment), Bells, Brass, and (a recent one) the Stylophone

Footnote: during the Athens Olympics ceremonies, the Greeks, pleasingly, presented their bouzoukis: I wonder how-many of the above instruments - and dances - will be shown at the London Olympics..? (From here.)

SOME GOOD NEWS ON THIS...

Given a "match that" from BBC Beijing Olympics presenters, Seb Coe just answered "5000 Morris dancers".

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Ian Burdon
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 03:35 AM

Stylophone?


and, er, why just England? ;-)

Ian

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 03:43 AM

I hope and pray, Ian, that both the Scots and the Welsh vote for independence before then; and London is the capital of England.
And, after a long thread on "England's National Musical Instrument?", I added the stylophone to the above list, as well as bells - which Wiki. has as our national instrument.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Ian Burdon
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 05:20 AM

"I hope and pray, Ian, that both the Scots and the Welsh vote for independence before then"

Fair enough - but I don't.

"and London is the capital of England."

Currently the capital of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Ian

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 07:42 AM

"the Greeks, pleasingly, presented their bouzoukis"

I do hope they were roundly slapped on their bouzikis for baring them in public!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Alan Day
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 08:51 AM

I think Mr Coe was trying to make a joke with his statement,I will be amazed if he actually meant it,but also pleased.
Al

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 09:59 AM

The 2 Beeb presenters actually chuckled the first time he said it, so he repeated it; I think Seb is at least a bit more informed about our own good culture than the majority of modern English, thank God, Al.
But, sadly, at the handover I just watched, it was American culture performed around a bus, a hedge, and umbrellas. And, equally sadly, the Manchester Commonwealth games was virtually wall-to-wall American pop. Those who do know must become more militant.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 12:04 PM

Those who do know must become more militant

Not seeing much evidence of any sort of knowledge here, WAV - just more relentlessly ignorant trolling backed up by an equal measure of mindless bigotry. Any militancy in this context I would personally oppose with a whole hearted indignation, as would any other right thinking human being, Morris Dancers included. Morris Dancing, like much else of our so-called Folk Culture, is perpetuated by a particular minority of revivalists without whom it would have died the death long ago. Even those who do it would baulk at your England for the English claptrap, and see it for what it is, i.e. a wholesome & generous slab of good-hearted nostalgia that in no way represents Our Own Good Culture any more than does the other redundancies & anachronisms in your offensive exclusive & woefully inaccurate catalogues of Englishness. Enjoy it by all means, but fir God's sake keep it in perspective.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Alan Day
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 12:25 PM

Sounds like the words of a publican putting in a Juke Box and taking the piano up the tip.
Al

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 12:46 PM

The first to adapt a piano from a harpsichord was, as you may know, Al, an Italian - but important developments were made in England and, yes, singing around one is another one of our fine ENGLISH traditions.
I only watched bits of the Olympics 2008 concert in London, this afternoon - but it seemed to be mainly English singing verses in an American pop or rock style, as well as a Welsh lady singing in Italian. And, if you don't want to listen to me, IB, check up on RVW who, paraphrasing, said our only truly English music is our folk songs and dance music.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Fidjit
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 01:36 PM

Here we go round the "Bickering Bush"

Chas

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 01:58 PM

A joke - likely enough. But if the embarrassing display put on as the British contribution to today's closing ceremony, both in Beijing and in Trafalgar Square, is any indication of what is planned, they'd be far far better to call in the Morris Dancers.

But the suggestion that "the only truly English music" is that from the native English tradition misses out the truth that there are all kinds of other folk traditions alive in this bunch of countries as well, and they could represent this country ever bit as much, alongside the natuive stuff.

I'm sure there are Chinese people who think that the only real Chinese culture is Han Chinese, but, as the better bits of Beijing celebration showed, it's far far more diverse than that, and all the better for it.

And the same should apply for London in 2012. Just please not the kind of crap they put on today, which was like an effort by a well meaning youth club organiser to put on a trendy show.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 02:03 PM

It may have been a joke, but I think its basically a sound idea. a fairly rocky sound like the albion band doing a morris tune - I think it could be really good.

Mind you they'd have to be pretty fit to keep up the dancing through one of these interminable ceremonies - in fact that's the weak point. It couldn't be done. Could it?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Ian Burdon
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 02:25 PM

"And, if you don't want to listen to me, IB, check up on RVW who, paraphrasing, said our only truly English music is our folk songs and dance music."

Assuming that I'm the IB referred to in this, I'm struggling to see the point of directing it to me (and as per Fidjit I'm not going to get involved in bickering). My mischevous question above was simply about 2012 being about Englishness as opposed to Britishness.

As for RVW, even were he correct, the same could be said for Ireland, Wales and Scotland. I don't think that he was correct though, at least not as an absolute statement.

In the case of dance, there is reference to Morris dance in Scotland in 1501 (though whether it is the same as any of the forms now surviving in England I'm not at all certain except that bells were certainly involved) and it is clear from the records that there was considerable interchange both within Britain and with our later mediaeval trading partners in Europe in folk traditions and dances for example those associated with the Lord of Misrule and Robin Hood festivities or guild sword dances or assorted Green Man traditions.

Others here, Jack Campin for one, are better qualified than me to talk about the spread and sharing of tunes across nations and traditions: it is what musicians do and what happens when traders and sailors have a few jars and have a song or two. Yes of course there are songs from particular localities (whether in English, Gaelic, Norn, or other languages or dialects) but there are also songs which are well distributed as variants within a common tradition both in the UK and elsewhere in Europe.

Clearly the traditions in the UK have their distinctive aspects and, as traditions have attenuated across Europe, the musical and dancing traditions of the remaining cultural archipelagoes have evolved in their own ways. In Scotland many traditions were killed off by the Kirk in Scotland post-reformation and in the UK generally they lost their importance with the shift to an urban, industrialised society and had the coup de grace administered by WW1 and WW2.

But they do survive, sometimes as genuine survivals and sometimes from revivals, and we should be celebrating these as part of the glue which binds us together in these islands and not as a tacit means of suggesting division between us.

To coin a phrase, Roll over Vaughan Williams :-)

Ian

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 03:49 PM

And, if you don't want to listen to me, IB, check up on RVW

It's not a matter of not listening to you, WAV, just that you keep banging on, relentlessly, mercilessly, on things you have absolutely no understanding of. Your idea of what constitutes Our Own Good English Culture is so narrow as to be emaciated; not culture at all, rather your own deeply subjective & highly selective fantasy based on a complete (and deliberate?) misunderstanding of the complex realities of the situation.

RVW was a reactionary fantasist too, his words woefully out of step even by the standards of his time, let alone the England of some 50 years after his death (almost to the day). This is the England in which we live, a complex multi-ethnic & multi-cultural England in which morris dancing & folk singing are minority hobbies with a good deal less cultural currency to actual English folk as (say) line-dancing & karaoke.

Folk music is an aspect of the traditional culture of our islands; part of our heritage if you like, our link with the past, and a continuity of something that some of us cherish, for reasons which are generally more personal as they are cultural. One thing it is not is a means to a nationalistic end, nor yet to the vile & repugnant political & philosophical agendas that would appear to be your primary concerns.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 03:58 PM

In 2012 Britain should demonstrate to the rest of the world how multicultural we are by taking the most colourful performances of all our ethnic minorities and putting on spectacular displays of them, Chinese dragons, West Indian carnival etc. As for representing England we should choose our more spectacular dances like the Rapper and perhaps Molly Dancing. If the piping was good enough for Beijing then we can also use that to much better effect. Even solid representations of the many different pipes of the British Isles.

As for morris,as an old codger and ex morris dancer/musician, I say NO to teams of old codgers dibbing or waving the hankies, but yes to youngsters doing spectacular solo jigs and some energetic stick bashing.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 04:25 PM

I'm sure there are people who go in for line dancing in China too, but mercifully they saw better than to include it.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 04:49 PM

There you go! I thought most of it resembled line dancing!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Alan Day
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 05:59 PM

WLD, I think you are right,firstly there is no way we could find 5000 Morris Dancers and to train them all to dance it correctly ,in time and a pleasure to watch would be impossible.As has been suggested a single team of Morris,possibly doing a difficult stick dance, a single Rapper side,A display of North West Morris,A molly side,an energetic Cotswold side dancing as "Old Spot style", A Garland Dance team, Switching to 5000 children dancing an English Country Dance that included a Maypole Dance would be my suggested format.All featuring top musicians.
I put that and my hat in the ring for discussion.
Al

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 06:01 PM

Wav seems to have a lot of preference for "mouth blown" instruments......which is not too surprising at all.

Spaw

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 06:45 PM

Am not going to get involved with the feud, but, I have to agree with McGrath that the UK contribution to todays closing ceremony was an unmitigated travesty.
Whole Lotta Love with an ageing Jimmy Page on an exploding bus? (Could have least have used a Routemaster)....Umbrellas?....Bus Stop queues???..What sort of stereotype are we trying to show for Gods sake?

All it needed was a few pearly kings and queens, someone eating jellied eels, and Dick Van Dyke singing Chim Chim Cheree, to have really represented the UK. Oh and a bunch of Chavs having a typical saturday night out.

OK the Chinese had at least 10 times the budget, (not to mention 1 Billion willing, or not volunteers), but at least they know how to stage a show. (probably mainly at gunpoint)

If that disaster I witnessed today is anything like what we can expect in 4 years time, I'm leaving the country.

As for 5000 Morris dancers.....What?
Oh the horror, the horror!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 09:34 PM

"I put that and my hat in the ring for discussion"

Which is probably better than putting your ring in the hat for ...

"All around my ..."

:-P

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 02:54 AM

There you go again. The usual pile of hostility to anything English, particularly English traditions.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 03:15 AM

Having spent yesterday afternoon not watching trash from Beijig on the telly but shifting a printer and long-neched bass (not simultaneously) across London on the bus, I can confirm caegorically that there is no such thing as a "bus queue". Current British tradition is to lurk somewhere near the stop, preferably blocking the pavement, then rush to be first on with weapon of choice being an industrial-sized buggy.

"Catching A Bus" as the new Olympic sport? Visiting spectators in 2012 will certainly be able to practice it.

As for a London opening ceremony, the very thought of 5,000 ageing, creaking Morris dancers fills me with dread. What would be good (not representative, but GOOD), is single and double jigs from dancers of Morris Offspring standard and Rapper from, perhaps, Black Swan. A combination of the Offsprings, Kingsmen and the Demon Barber Roadshow should do it. Who can forget the spectacular Flame! at the last Sidmouth that mattered? That and a couple of well-executed rant- and hop-step social dances from ceilidh dancers who really know what they're doing.

This scenario is not at all typical of current British social activity (such as it is) nor even of the tiny, niche "f*lk scene" (whatever that is). Deity of choice forfend that these be put on public display. But it would be . . . good.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 03:26 AM

Once upon a time, out of Middlesbrough, there came a trio whose music remains the very epitome of Englishness, albeit an Englishness informed by the universality of Jazz, Blues and the sort of Folk Music as such we might only hear in our dreams. In 2003 they did a couple of concerts to promote a new album (their first in thirty years!) in their old home in The Lion Inn on Blakey Ridge, North Yorkshire, and, sadly, since that time two members of that trio have passed on.

Whether not the name Back Door means anything to anyone here I know not; likewise that of Ron Aspery, Tony Hicks or Colin Hodgkinson, though chances are a few of you are aware of the legendary bass playing of the latter; but the music of this unique trio remains as English as anything WAV might dream of in his nationalistic culturally challenged idyll.      

Here's a YouTube clip from that 2003 concert high on the North Yorkshire Moors. Next time I'm passing, I'll pop in and drink a pint or two in thanks and gratitude that such music existed at all; English music to be truly proud of.

Back Door - Askin' the Way

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 03:27 AM

Alan Parker, the film director had a theory. As soon as you see a film with a London red bus in the opening credits - you know its going to be a bummer.

Theres a certain tradition of total English crap, which I must say I have a quiet affection for. Just imagine - we could have Cliff on the bus singing all those songs he does when its pissing down at Wimbeldon.

Personaly speaking I think (on reflection) theres only one kind of music would fit ino a scenario like that - namely a medley of Eurovision Song Contest favourites - Pearl Carr and Teddy Johnson doing Sing Little Birdie, the consummate brilliance of Sandy Shaw's Puppet on a String, The Brotherhood of man singing Save Your Kisses for Me (and doing the little dance!) and the bit where that other group rip the girls' skirts off.

That in so many ways would cut to the chase and say - THIS WAS OUR FINEST HOUR!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 03:37 AM

See what I mean?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 03:45 AM

Pearl Carr and Teddy Johnson did a killer Johnny One Note on Morecambe & Wise once; doesn't appear to be on YouTube, alas...

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Alan Day
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 04:08 AM

I would expect of all the traditional dances suggested one will be used,the "Maypole Dancing". The ribbons will be illuminated electronically and will be performed in darkness.
What I would like to see however is a history of UK dancing and Music from Morris through to Rock. It is probably the only chance that we will see Morris Dancing at our Olympics.
Al

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 04:33 AM

My IB abreviation was for Sean, not Ian.
Rock, jazz, blues and pop are American genres that should be performed by American citizens, in places such as Atlanta.
The Chinese did go-pop in both the opening and closing ceremony - but the majority of what we witnessed was indeed, pleasingly, Chinese culture, and the instrument we saw the most of was the erhu fiddle; I hope the Commonwealth soon dissolves but, in the meantime, I'm sure the ceremonies planned for Glasgow 2014 will, similarly, be very Scottish - unlike Manchester, as noted above.
As well as the instruments and dances I posted above, organisers should also build on what the current president of the IOC noted - many of the Olympic sports and their rules were developed in this part of the world.
Furthermore, there should be some traditional English wit, but Boris Johnson must be kept well away from it's formulation - the behaviour of most middle-aged folk leaving a pub would be far more sober and dignified than his Olympics-handover performance.
And, finally, we must love the DIFFERENCES in culture between nations.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 05:09 AM

Rock, jazz, blues and pop are American genres that should be performed by American citizens, in places such as Atlanta

Wrong, WAV. Rock, jazz, blues & pop are universal musical phenomenon initially derived from the African & European cultural melting pot that is North America and historically, culturally & ethnically unbounded thereafter. This is not a matter of opinion, but a matter of observable & quantifiable FACT which you'd only be too aware of were you not so bound up with your suspect & woefully ill-informed right-wing racist agendas.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 05:22 AM

One thing they got right with the bus scene was the way everyone was climbing over each other to get on it.. and then some idiot decides they want to leave the bus by the front door rather than the proper exit!!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 05:22 AM

PS -

and important developments to – if not inventions of – other key-boards, such as piano and organ, have also occurred in England

The first to adapt a piano from a harpsichord was, as you may know, Al, an Italian - but important developments were made in England

Significant concessions to WAVs culturally challenged world view; however, applying those same concessions to music, in particular the so-called American Genres of Rock, Jazz, Blues & Pop, could we ever conceive of anything as uniquely English as the important developments made by Jethro Tull, Soft Machine, The Fall, Joy Division, Oasis, The Animals, Yes, Gentle Giant, Evan Parker, Lol Coxhill, Henry Cow, Elton Dean, ABC, The Human League, Eliza Carthy, Groundhogs, Caravan, This Heat, Roxy Music, David Bowie, etc. etc. God! The beauteous richness of English Music!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 06:29 AM

I hope 2012 won't rely on stereotyped (or stereotypical?) imagery. If the intention. There is a wonderful opportunity to show folk dance and song in a context of how it fits in with London's diverse cultures.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Gavin Paterson
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 06:50 AM

If anything unites the 'other three' countries in the UK it is love of Morris Dancing. Nothing makes us laugh so much. Sorry, but there is some truth in my flipancy.

On a more serious note, there is no such thing as British/UK culture. Scottish, Welsh and (N) Irish are all well and thriving. English culture is putting a good fight, thanks to Billy Bragg and others.

But what is British culture?

And I agree with the earlier post that we will be well on the way to independence by 2012 - at least here in Scotland.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 06:55 AM

<>Team GB - which is to say Great Britain, of which I am a citizen & of which London is the capital... So the idea would be to reflect the cultural diversity of Great Britain as a whole, stereotypical imagery included, giving only an impression of something rather than the thing itself.

How does Folk Dance & Song fit into such a context I wonder? How would it fare if it was put to a nationwide referendum? How can it be anything other than stereotypical imagery? Perhaps things will be a little clearer four years hence, but in the wider scheme of things such garishly clichéd spectaculars can only be appreciated in terms of pure irony.

A few years ago we chanced upon the Highland Games at Killin, replete with caber tossing & any amount of manly heave-ho, together with piobaireachd, highland dancing, unaccompanied singing, and the customary downpour blowing in off Lock Tay. Stereotypical images all, but none the less real for that. And a lot of the competitors were American, Canadian & Australian Scots, heartily proud of their cultural roots.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 07:11 AM

'could we ever conceive of anything as uniquely English as the important developments made by Jethro Tull, Soft Machine, The Fall, Joy Division, Oasis, The Animals, Yes, Gentle Giant, Evan Parker, Lol Coxhill, Henry Cow, Elton Dean, ABC, The Human League, Eliza Carthy, Groundhogs, Caravan, This Heat, Roxy Music, David Bowie, etc. etc. God! The beauteous richness of English Music!'

And Buck's Fizz - where they ripped the girls' skirts off. Surely a British (nay an English!) first. No one else has done that.....

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 07:23 AM

"the way everyone was climbing over each other to get on it.. and then some idiot decides they want to leave the bus by the front door rather than the proper exit!!"

... and then everybody deciding they couldn't be bothered going to work, and just walking away...

:-P

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Marje
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 07:32 AM

Jorrox: I don't suppose that the Chinese agree that there is one "Chinese culture" that represents that vast country with all its ethnic variety. That didn't prevent them from displaying some aspects of their collective culture that appear to the rest of the world to be distinctively and entertainingly Chinese.

We'd be a sad little nation if we let our individual differences blind us to how much we have in common in the UK. We have many shared aspects of our culture that distinguish us from, say, China or the US or Russia.

You may choose to laugh at morris dance, just as some English people laugh at Highland pipes and men in kilts, and others laugh at the Irish dances that are danced only with the lower half of the body. In doing this, you're showing one aspect of your own Britishness - self-deprecation and poking fun at neighbouring regions and their culture are one very distinctive part of being British.

I'd love to see a display of regional traditional dances chosen to represent British culture. It would include the various sorts of morris dance (like all the dances, this would energetically performed by fit and well trained dancers), rapper, Irish dance, maypole dancing with children, Scottish Highland dance with bagpipes, English clog, the Abbots Bromley Horn Dance, etc.

And we could have a great procession showing as many of these dances as can be adapted to a processional dance-form. It could also include other features of traditional processions including, say, St George with his dragon, Lady Godiva, a Viking longship with blazing torches, an Obby Oss ... oh, I'm sure you could all add to the list. Make fun of our culture if you wish, but don't say it doesn't exist or that it isn;t worth displaying to the world.

What will really disappoint me is if we try to define ourselves by the antics of tired old rock stars and other "celebrities".

Marje

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: pavane
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 07:34 AM

If we get back for a moment to the 5000 Morris Dancers

How many musicians would be needed? (Noting that in keeping woth tradition, we should not allow amplification).
Allowing one per side would mean approx 1000 (Exact figure not calculable, realising that not all dances are for 6 men (Sorry, Federation, PERSONS), some for 4 or 8, and also a few for other numbers)

I would like to get my name down first, in case a list is started.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: pavane
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 07:34 AM

with, not woth!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: melodeonboy
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 07:54 AM

"Rock, jazz, blues & pop are universal musical phenomenon initially derived from the African & European cultural melting pot that is North America and historically, culturally & ethnically unbounded thereafter."

American pop/rock music (and I believe that's the only one that's exported in great quantity by America these days) is indeed universal. So are McDonald's, training shoes and baseball caps. They're all universal not because of any melting pot theories, nor because of any superiority or intrinsic universality, but because the USA has, for many years, been very good at flooding the rest of the world with its products, particularly in "cultural" areas, e.g. music, clothes, films and eating habits.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 08:08 AM

'How many musicians would be needed? (Noting that in keeping woth tradition, we should not allow amplification).
Allowing one per side would mean approx 1000 (Exact figure not calculable, realising that not all dances are for 6 men (Sorry, Federation, PERSONS), some for 4 or 8, and also a few for other numbers)

I would like to get my name down first, in case a list is started.'

As Captain Mainwaring said, I think we're getting into the realms of fantasy here........

That's like.... 200 bodhrans!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 08:29 AM

I think the Chinese erhu fiddles were hooked-up and amplified, but not so all those costume-bells, whose volume seemed loud enough to me.
Melodeonboy may not agree with me on everything, but answered Insane Beard's criticism quite well for me.
A gigantic greenman entering to the sounds of "English Country Gardens", played by a collier brass-band...
'Obby 'Osses doing likewise to drums, concertinas/melodeons and the mass-singing of "Summer is a comin' in"...

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 08:45 AM

Seasonal discrepancy here.

A Green Man and an 'Oss might be sort of contextual if the Olympics were at the beginning of May but they happen three months later, or so I've heard. And the only recording of ECG everyone knows is by Jimmie Rodgers, an American popstar.

Petards and hoisting spring to mind.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 08:46 AM

"That's like.... 200 bodhrans!"

Well, if they can have 2008 drummers... that will be 2012 b.... AGGGH!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 08:56 AM

The ECG tune that I play, on my tenor English-flute, and sing, Diane, comes from Bert Cleaver's "Fieldtown Dances and Jigs of The Morris Ring."

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: julian morbihan
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 09:12 AM

Sorry to spoil the idea but 2012 is the LONDON Olympics not England, Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland - so Lancashire clog and NW Morris are out so are Molly, Border, Rapper, Longsword and anything else I can currently think of.

So basically I think it's down to Hammersmith Morris to sort it all out....

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 09:41 AM

Where's the sailing going to be held at, JM?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: pavane
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 09:46 AM

Tune is Country Gardens, (American ) song is English Country Garden, I believe. (Whoever heard of those birds in England? as bad as 'blubirds over the which cliffs of Dover').

If it is LONDON, then we need a few songs in Cockney Rhyming Slang...I do have one as sung by Diz Disley c1973.

Re Hammersmith MM
I may still qualify, as I have actually played as a guest musician for HMM, in their 1985 tour of Trier...(Photos available on request)

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 09:46 AM

Why the 'at', WAV?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: pavane
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 09:47 AM

And I believe that there are records of Cotswold Morris sides travelling to London in the 1800's, to perform there. (Better takings)

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: pavane
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 09:52 AM

(How on earth did I type Which instead of White?)

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 10:00 AM

...and why on earth did I type that "at"?!
Coppers have performed in the Alber Hall - no porky pies, Pavane!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 11:34 AM

Everybody's performed in London - but what do you suggest....just Londoners?

was it John Foreman who used to sing Dahn the Sewers...? Refreshingly different, anyway.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 12:38 PM

I suggest, WLD, dissolution, such that the 2012 Olympics are held in London, England; and the very last Commonwealth games in Glasgow, Scotland - a fine country that I have greatly enjoyed VISITING.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Fidjit
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 03:15 PM

Sidney Carter surely. It's his "Down Below".

Chas

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 03:57 PM

yeh i know. I just seem to have some recollection of John Foreman singing something like that.....

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 04:34 PM

I repeat, we are a multicultural society and reflection of multicultural traditions at 2012 would demonstrate to the rest of the world that at least some of us are not xenophobic.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 04:44 PM

well actually its aleady been decided by radio 4, the house of commons, a select committee of ex public schoolboys and Andrew lloyd webber - so I'm afraid its bollocks to you lot - multicultural and otherwise.

And that's how England works. get used to it.

Its just bound to be awful. that's how we do things. Its traditional.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 05:22 PM

To avoid that, WLD, the EFDSS, whose members do sometimes drop in on such threads, should introduce Seb Coe to the likes of Doc Roe - and it does have a nice ring to it: Roe and Coe.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 05:11 AM

They're all universal not because of any melting pot theories, nor because of any superiority or intrinsic universality, but because the USA has, for many years, been very good at flooding the rest of the world with its products, particularly in "cultural" areas

Okay, let me see if I've got this right... First of all they implement a diaspora of Africans with the prime intention of allowing their native musics to intermingle with that of the European settlers who have also found their to the New World. And lo! Jazz, Blues, Gospel, R&B, Rock n' Roll sprung into being in this carefully controlled environment of cultural conspiracy; and the Illuminati sat back and saw that it was good. They then sent it forth as a virus to corrupt and poison the pure indigenous folk musics of the world, many of which had gone into their evil mix in the first place. Thus did the ports of England become points of infection - Liverpool, for example, whose disaffected working-class youth were all too vulnerable to this evil seed, with young men such as John Lennon finding their nasal Scouse voices weirdly suited to the timbres of this vile product that was R&B; likewise on Tyneside, where one Eric Burdon was similarly infected. And so it was The British Invasion took the music back to their American masters, who saw that it was good, and thus was born modern pop music in all its myriad and vile forms. And so it came to pass that the youth of England did lay aside their unaccompanied English folksongs, English concertinas, English citterns, English Country Dances and English Morris Dances, and sold their English souls to the corporate evils of Pop Music - which is one of the American Genres, that should be performed by American citizens, in places such as Atlanta.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 05:17 AM

And it's Doc Rowe, not Doc Roe.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 05:28 AM

And doncha' just gotta' wonder..........Why Atlanta?

Spaw

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 05:31 AM

Mr Insane (hope you don't mind me calling you that!)

I hear the sound of nails being soundly walloped here...Brilliant.
Having been shown the error of my ways, I will get rid of 90% of my record collection, destroy most of my instruments (apart from the Concertina, I now see that the rest are indeed products of the evil nation the US of A, who have always been hell bent on World Domination! Mind you they better get on with it fast, the Chinese are coming up on the rails) Sigh, Think I'll have to learn the Cheung now!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: melodeonboy
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 05:32 AM

"Okay, let me see if I've got this right..."

Er...no, not really. But A for effort!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 05:46 AM

I'm getting visions of one-ended sticks being desperately grasped at hitherto unseen (by those of the population who still have a braincell or two intact) ends.

Meanwhile, I look forward to masses of stuff being offloaded on eBay or preferably Freecycle. I'll start with my non-English and thus terminally tainted electric bass which, after a minimum of experimentation, I realise I can't play anyway and look forward to picking up some Leicestershire pipes forthwith. Maybe you'll see me annoying the world at the 2012 opening ceremony.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 06:06 AM

On reflection I think WLD is pretty spot on.
It's already been sewn up by the government and Lloyd Webber, why are we bothering?

So expect Starlight Cats In A Saigon Dreamcoat spectacular, performed by Chelsea Pensioners, on roller skates.

Oh, and all bets are off for a fat Italian tenor murdering Nessum Bleedin' Dorma YET AGAIN!

It's just going to a squirmingly embarrassing occasion. Maybe that is the true British way

Anyone remember the Dome?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 06:30 AM

To Catspaw - Atlanta held an Olympics, where, during the ceremonies, American citizens, such as Lionel Ritchie, I think, performed music from some of the American genres. I'm not sure, frankly, how much Amerindian music and dance was included..?
And God's speed and light to you Diane on your new divine path.
To Ralphie - as part of that, has Fabio Capello employed a voice coach?!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Penny S.
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 07:28 AM

I always understood the bluebirds to be fantastic birds along the lines of the Firebird and the phoenix, based on Maeterlink's (spelling doesn't look right) play. Unlike the misidentified birds in the country garden song. Or the robin in Mary Poppins.

As a bit of thread creep, I once read a book by an American female author set in medieval England, in which a woman killed a ground squirrel for dinner. Amusingly, she then proceeded to make as much use of it as if it were the ground sloth from Crystal Palace park, or indeed the Derby Ram. Which would have been OK, had the species been indigenous. Strangely, I never felt like that about Twain's Yankee...

Penny

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 07:37 AM

At the mention of Doc Rowe.

Of course, he would be an ideal consultant for the various ceremonies in 2012....
Will they include him in the organising committee????

NAH!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 07:52 AM

A bit of bad planning to have the Olympics in London in 2012 when every-one knows that it will be over-shadowed.
It is a Preston Guild year.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 08:02 AM

Poem 122 of 230: PROUD PRESTON - AUTUMN 2000

Heavy autumnal rain
    Had surged the Ribble's flow
When I walked to and fro
    The foot-, motor- and train-
Bridges, that have allowed
    Many - some in combat -
To cross this river at
    A town justly self-proud.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 08:13 AM

And God's speed and light to you Diane on your new divine path

This from the man whose concessions to his Own Good English Folk Music consist of a plastic recorder & an electronic keyboard.

Meanwhile I'm off to play some Irish airs on my beloved erhu (note erhu, not erhu fiddle) bought from Ray Man at some point in the early 1980s; another crucial piece of the multi-cultural life of Merry England! Then I'll be cooking myself a spot of lunch (Italian pasta smeared in Hungarian goulash) whilst listening to the American Pop stylings of The Fall.

PS - Leicestershire Bagpipe - A versatile and popular English bagpipe which for twenty years has proved simple enough for beginners but challenging enough for more experienced players.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 08:23 AM

I have TWO electronic keyboards (only one of which is a Yamaha) and a MIDI controller that doesn't work. And lots of wooden recorders, which I am keeping. Oh sorry, I've no idea why I'm telling you all this. I thought I was on Freecycle . . .

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 08:52 AM

Two? Well, I've got an old Yamaha and a Bontempi battery reed organ, and an Oxygen 8 midi controller (don't laugh, they were state of the art 5 years ago...), though our keyboard of choice right now is an Indian Baja harmonium (which punters at The Fylde can hear as part of The Big Sing (Mount, Saturday afternoon) & In The Tradition (The Steamer, Sunday morning) & at the North Euston Concert on Thursday). Only one wooden recorder though, a descant I believe, given to me a girl at school, 40 years ago, no doubt in pity for me being laughed out the recorder class when I took in my Yugoslavian wooden whistle thinking to join in the fun...

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 09:01 AM

When I was a child, the object of my desires was a Sooty piano. I really wanted one.

However, times were hard, and my parents could only afford a drum. During the first day, the sticks disappeared in mysterious circumstances.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 09:04 AM

I could have got a real Welsh chapel harmonium on eBay the other day. I stopped bidding when the stakes suddenly shot up (as they do) but kicked myself when it went at only £102. eBay is crawling with bajas. I wondered if it was code for something else. I got a glockenspiel off Freecycle and I can play The Sugar Plum Fairy.

That's India, Wales, Germany and Russia all incorporated. How's that for multicultural? Must go and get some Oriental bits for my discordance of keyboards . . .

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 09:13 AM

Was it a dream? Or have the Meds stopped working.

Have just seen a trail for a BBC1 (UK TV show) called...
"Last Morris Dancer Standing"
It's due to aired this coming Saturday.

Judged by the redoubtable Simon Cowell (Complete with inflated Pigs Bladder).

The winner will do a solo jig against Boris Johnson, resplendent in his baldricks and bells, to decide who opens the ceremony in 2012.

Nurse......Nurse.....Nurse....

I need Fruit !

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 09:19 AM

A Sooty piano?

When I was very little I was taken to see Archie Andrews at the Sunderland Empire where Ronald Chesney threw miniature mouth organs into the audience so we could play along. I've still got mine even though it put me off diatonic things for ever. I do recall my xylophone hammers being confiscated when I was executing a particularly bravura passage for the umpteenth time when the grownups were trying to concentrate on something trivial.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 12:37 PM

I love the sounds of the English concertina and wooden English flutes, IB - but, alas, can't afford them. So I use an ABS tenor, which apparently are easier to maintain but harder to play, and put electronic keyboards onto "piano" or "pipe organ" voice...or, as I said on myspace, "plead to play a pub's proper piano"!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 02:48 PM

I saw Archie Andrews as well, And Ronald Chesney and his talking harmonica. I saw them at Peterborough. I was four.

My Mum wrote to Brough and said I was his biggest fan and could I meet Archie. Brough to his credit, wrote back and agreed. So we went to the stage door, which was guarded by this ferocious old man. I walked up and said, I've come to see Archie....
To which the old gentleman replied, Fuck off! And don't you hang round here! And he slammed the stage door behind him.
About ten minutes later the old man reappeared with a message that Archie Andrews wanted to see me. Alas, I was still in shock and floods of tears, and couldn't be persuaded in. So I never got to meet anybody famous.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 05:10 PM

Watched some of the Ediburgh Tattoo last night. Not much was my cup o tea but it looked like the sort of stuff that would, if multiplied, be quite effective in an opening ceremony, and lots of the performers were from the colonies. Some of the tunes were folk. Co-ordination was impressive. We have a multiplicity of military bands that are used to marching about in sequence. Attach a few lights to this lot and we're half way there.

I'll get me coat!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Alan Day
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 05:45 PM

Sad story WLD ,but it explains a lot.
Al

ps only joking

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 07:22 PM

well actually Al, the incident prepared me for a lifetime of rejection and failure quite nicely really.

Still Archie Andrews was the real thing. I had an Archie Andrews model - whose mouth moved up and down. We were inseparable. In many ways, I often feel all relationships ever since have been a bit of a letdown.

Diane - your Sooty xylophone and my coronation tin drum with the royal coat of arms on the side. We could have made beautiful music together.

We had a real piano - but it was the Sooty one I wanted. that's the thing. The creative opportunity is really in your imagination - rather than anything reality has to offer.

For example, when I was a little older I got the David Nixon magic kit. But the tricks were a load of crap - all bits of paper and card. The thing was though - there was a wand. And when I had that, I was convinced I could do magic.

It would be nice if we could come up with something for 2012, like the Irish did with Riverdance. Its locating the sooty piano and the magic wand within - someting that fires the imagination. Just folkmusic isn't the answer.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 07:27 PM

The Carry On Olympics...

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 05:42 AM

No - I'd rather see a huge green man, with a stiff upper-lip, carried onto the field of play.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,eliza c
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 05:50 AM

doesn't a huge green man usually have a stiff something else? I'd like to see that...
x

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Joseph P
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 06:37 AM

WAV - what about putting on one of the original morris teams in England, like the one I dance & play for? We could dance to the tune that was introduced from Italy, or our most recent addition, a version of an 80's Christmas pop tune! All played on a German made melodeon of course, and including our dancers from Scotland and Wales.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 07:06 AM

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 07:08 AM

Ooops, clicked too soon.

WAV, surely most people would associate a huge green man with the (American)Jolly Green Giant of sweet corn fame?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Joseph P
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 07:15 AM

I can just picture a combination of what Eliza and Terry have just said, the result of the adverts would be a big workload for Ofcom ....

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 07:25 AM

What Italian tune?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Joseph P
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 07:36 AM

'That Italian Job'. 'sabout all I know ...

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 08:06 AM

Joseph - but you can also dance to the likes of "English Country Gardens", yes?
And, staying green, I don't claim to be an expert on the Green Man, frankly...so, perhaps, Eliza could come back and carry on with some more of his details!...

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Joseph P
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 08:13 AM

WAV - No we don't dance to 'English Country Gardens', and have no plans to.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Alan Day
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 08:29 AM

WLD I confess to listening to Archie Andrews on the radio so we have a lot in common.I did have a Muffin the Mule puppet so we could have done a double act. Archie & Muffin.
Al

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: doncatterall
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 08:38 AM

Alan Day - now your talking - I had a Muffin the Mule puppet too - THAT would have made a great double act!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 09:32 AM

Actually the Sooty xylophone that Diane had was pretty cool. Ihere was a picture of Sooty and Harry Corbett on the box. All the keys were different colours.

I never had one, but I think one kid down our street had one.

He was a bit of an anarchist was Sooty. It always ended with HC getting it with a hammer or with a water pistol, and saying dolefully Bye Bye Everybody! Say Bye Bye Sooty!

Could it be, he performed our Freudian fantasies - albeit with a water pistol?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 10:07 AM

Whilst the Green Men of Folk Tradition, revived or otherwise, are often to be seen brandishing obviously phallic clubs, the so-called Green Men as found in pre-reformation churches have no genital associations, even though often cited as being the consort to the Sheela-na-Gigs, which most certainly do.

I recently came across this carving on a medieval church on The Fylde, Lancashire: A Sexual Contortionist, who might well give many an Olympic athlete pause to ponder, although one does hear reports that Prince once had certain ribs removed so me could perform such feats on his own person. My view, however, is that what we have here is a Sheela-na-Gig, albeit one about the business of giving herself cunnilingus - perhaps the sort of thing the stone mason saw one night in a passing carnival & felt obliged to immortalise in local stone.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 11:17 AM

'genital associations....'

they call 'em clubs for swingers...

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 11:31 AM

'doesn't a huge green man usually have a stiff something else? I'd like to see that...'

Thats a great idea - leading the parade - that bloke out of Viz magazine, who carries his willy round in a wheelbarrow.

That never even occurred to the Chinese.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: s&r
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 11:32 AM

looks like an upside down lady with pendulous breasts

Stu

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: lady penelope
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 11:34 AM

"doesn't a huge green man usually have a stiff something else? I'd like to see that...
x "

*G*

Green men, morris dancers... What they hey, let's throw the whole thing over to a fertility ritual and have done with it....We can get Ronald Hutton to 'catherd' the Druids into overseeing it... Or the Archbishop of Canterbury, he's nearly druish... *G*

And NOBODY should ever have to dance to 'English country garden'....shudder...

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 11:45 AM

looks like an upside down lady with pendulous breasts

Definitely buttocks, Stu - I've been studying it for quite a while now!    Others maintain the figure is of a male, licking his own anus, but on closer examination you can see the tongue entering quite evident, though much eroded, labia majora, which makes this carving quite unique.

I'll PM you with the location so you might check it out for yourself; so much of this stuff is getting vandalised at the moment that locations become guarded secrets!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Alan Day
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 01:18 PM

It is a woman with pigtails,nothing sexual about that.
Now back to Muffin.
Al

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 04:42 AM

And NOBODY should ever have to dance to 'English country garden'....shudder...

I still play this on pipe & tabor; got it off one of those old FolkTrax cassettes as performed by P'n'T revivalist Kenworthy Schofield. Been a while since I played it for a side, though I'm sure I did once, along with Idbury Hill, Lads a Bunchum, and Jimmy Allen (a distant relative of mine, and thousands of others...)

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 05:59 AM

I'd like to hear that, IB...do you have the pipe in your left hand/tabor-stick in right?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: fat B****rd
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 07:14 AM

Archie Andrews !! So it was Ronald Chesney who didn't throw a mouth organ my way. I've been blaming Larry Adler for years.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 07:29 AM

do you have the pipe in your left hand/tabor-stick in right?

Pipe in the left, with the drum (currently a smallish Turkish dumbek tuned to A, the pipe being one in G by the late Bernard Overton) played with the fingers of my right hand. When I stand to play (storytelling al fresco) I use a still smaller dumbek struck with a bodhran beater made by Harvey of Tyneside back in 1982 (whatever happened to Harvey? He was always around The Bridge and the Irish Centre - excellent beaters!). In either case I use a string of Nepalese ankle bells such as occasionally turn up in Knock on Wood in Leeds from time to time. Worth a look is Knock on Wood, caters for all the diverse ethnic communities so you find all sorts of weird and wonderful things in there, though perhaps not quite so many as when it was in the Dark Arches in the days when the Dark Arches was a lace of genuine wonderment! It (Knock on Wood) still remains the vibrant heart of a truly multi-cultural community.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 07:47 AM

The man out of Viz with his willy in wheelbarrow painted green, followed by the woman with pendulous breasts upside down - this promises to be quite a show....!

You might even get away with some folkmusic. it would be a bit like the opening bars of Springtime for Hitler, so many jaws would be dropping they wouldn't notice the music.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 07:58 AM

the woman with pendulous breasts upside down

That's her arse, WLD - her body's bent double as she licks her own pussy. Maybe once an attraction at your average medieval fair (one does hear such tales after all), but as an Olympic sport??

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 07:11 AM

"do you have the pipe in your left hand/tabor-stick in right?" (me)

"Pipe in the left, with the drum (currently a smallish Turkish dumbek tuned to A, the pipe being one in G by the late Bernard Overton) played with the fingers of my right hand. When I stand to play (storytelling al fresco) I use a still smaller dumbek struck with a bodhran beater made by Harvey of Tyneside back in 1982 (whatever happened to Harvey? He was always around The Bridge and the Irish Centre - excellent beaters!). In either case I use a string of Nepalese ankle bells such as occasionally turn up in Knock on Wood in Leeds from time to time. Worth a look is Knock on Wood, caters for all the diverse ethnic communities so you find all sorts of weird and wonderful things in there, though perhaps not quite so many as when it was in the Dark Arches in the days when the Dark Arches was a lace of genuine wonderment! It (Knock on Wood) still remains the vibrant heart of a truly multi-cultural community." (IB)...you don't worry that, if everyone fused musics to the extent that you do, the world would be less diverse and interesting..?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Joseph P
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 07:17 AM

No, I think it would be a hell of a lot more diverse and interesting. Music is not like paint, when its all mixed together it doesn't all come out brown!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 05:53 PM

I think you're wrong, Joseph, and I think what I just watched on BBC4 was wrong; i.e., it was showing a Cambridge rock, pop, and fusion festival - NOT a Folk Festival.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 05:04 AM

...drum kits, belted lyrics, electric and eclectic instruments...as I said above, those who do know must be more militant.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 05:26 AM

(IB)...you don't worry that, if everyone fused musics to the extent that you do, the world would be less diverse and interesting..?

No I don't. On the contrary - I think it would be more diverse & more interesting. To me music is about the celebration of humanity in terms of individuals rather than the vile racist volkish segregations that you promote & believe in. I am but one individual, doing what I do for whatever reason which isn't about any sort of cultural shit at all, but my own perception of things and my right as an individual human being to do whatever I want to do.

And I'm not really fusing anything, just looking for practical (and aesthetical) solutions to practical (and aesthetical) problems. The Dumbeks I use a) because they have plastic heads and are, therefoe, generally weatherproof; b) they're entirely tuneable; c) they sound good; d) they're relatively inexpensive, unlike a Genuine English Tabor, made by some specialist maker of Revived & Early Folk Instruments which would cost an arm and a leg and sound no better than hitting a Corn Flakes box. The dumbeks also look beautiful. Likewise the Kemence, which I use because I wanted a fiddle I could use for al fresco storytelling, out in the woods, at night, wherever - something lightweight, with a good sound etc. so it answered that need perfectly. That I then found it was the ideal thing for accompanying the singing of of Traditional English (speaking) Folk Song & Ballads was serendipitous in the extreme. I don't play Turkish music on it, not yet even try to do what traditional Turkish Kemence players do; although I might study their technique, the music I do is either entirely traditional in terms of English (speaking) Folk Song & Ballad, or else entirely improvised.

As Harry Partch said: This is my trinity: Sound-magic, Visual Beauty & Experience Ritual

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 05:26 AM

those who do know must be more militant

With respect, WAV - you know fuck all.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 05:39 AM

...I know that English folk rarely gets a guernsey on the BBC these days, and, when it does, it's often anything but what our forebears did for centuries - e.g., not one song was sung unaccompanied during the 2 and a half hours of the "Cambridge Folk Festival" "highlights" last night.
(And, "with respect", IB, I have 4 technical certificates and a BA in humanities.)

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 06:11 AM

1 and a half hours, sorry - before it was a programme on RVW - who DID respect his own good English cultural-heritage.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: melodeonboy
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 07:08 AM

I didn't manage the full 1 1/2 hours. Boredom set in!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,eliza c
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 11:39 AM

I know I'm just asking for it again, but WAV-you are being brought up on your lack of knowledge of living traditional music and the way that it works, not on your general qualifications.
The reason I challenge you is because I do know, and I have always been militant about these matters. You do not know enough to be a convincing ambassador. You irritate people with your methods and you don't have the necessary information to back them up. That's all. Put simply, you're not helping. Learn more, mate. About social skills as well as the thing you love, and then you'll be genuinely useful to the thing you love. Don't say you want to see a green man and then say actually, I don't even know what that entails. That's tokenism. It's extraordinarily shallow. Is that our good English culture?
5,000 Morris dancers and the upside down lady and the bloke from Viz would definitely be something I would go and see. Because an important part of our good English culture is a good sense of humour.
   Don't be like the joke I just heard...why do folk singers put their fingers in their ears? Because they only want to hear themselves.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 01:02 PM

"Because an important part of our good English culture is a good sense of humour."...(EC)..we agree on that - on this very thread I mentioned traditional English wit and, although you may think my humour is not so good, I do attempt it now and again.
I thought things had gone a tad light-hearted around that Green Man post, so I went along with it; however, I wasn't joking when I said I'm no expert on the Green Man (I know a bit more on the Rainbow Serpent of Aboriginal Australia, e.g., which I did study during my anthropology major)...about all I do know on the Green Man is here on Wiki.
I think I do listen, and I make conclusions that go against some of the paths you've taken these last few years: I don't like the Imagined Village; I did like the Sage Christmas gig you and your family, etc, did a couple of years ago, e.g.
And Melodeonboy and me are not alone on this - a uni lecturer here said to me his problem with fusion music was not political but aesthetic.
Finally, if you want to try and duet some English music sometime, I won't put my finger in my ear!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 03:42 AM

(And, "with respect", IB, I have 4 technical certificates and a BA in humanities.)

Knowledge, or even being in the know, was never a matter of academic achievement, especially when it comes to those subjects in which one isn't qualified, nor yet would appear to have any clear understanding of whatsoever, and yet in which you still - bizarrely, absurdly & infuriatingly - persist. What have there is not knowledge, WAV - it is a heap of cantankerously misinformed bugbears made all the more distasteful by the racist sentiments upon which they are based.      

about all I do know on the Green Man is... on Wiki.

The Wiki page, as with a lot of Wiki pages, is, to be generous, a tad misleading. For a more thorough overview of the issues check out both of the Green Man threads on Mudcat, and you might like to read my own wee introduction to the subject (as published in Folk Leads) which is currently on-line (in PDF format) as The Devil in the Details.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 05:51 AM

IB - you are pro-immigration plus pro-fusion and, because you are an extreme case, lacking in formal education, you take to branding anyone who questions them as a "racist". There IS a difference between questioning immigration plus fusion music and being a racist. I, e.g., love the world being multicultural.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Gervase
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 06:23 AM

because you are an extreme case, lacking in formal education
For plain, patronising and arrogant bloody rudeness, that just about takes the biscuit.
But I suppose it's what one can expect from someone who makes the boast - without apparent irony - that he has four technical certificates and Bugger All in Humanities. Reminds me of the folk who say that Nick Griffin can't be all bad because "after all, he did go to Cambridge".
If traditional music has friends like WalkaboutsVerse, it certainly doesn't need any more enemies.
Tell you what, Mr Doggerel, why not just listen to "The Imagined Village" project and then just implode in a messy splutter of outrage and do us all a huge favour? It's certainly something I'd travel to see - though, just by reading the Mudcat I can at least enjoy the prospect of a pisspoor 'poet' disappearing up his own arse on a regular basis.
To plagiarise a phrase from that other great polymath and patriot, Richard Littlejohn, "Honestly, you couldn't make it up!"

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 07:31 AM

I hope those responsible for the Olympic Games to be held in London in 2012 will have the good sense to ensure that beautiful Greenwich Park is not used for the horses (there are already purpose built venues available), Her Majesty opens the event with three rousing choruses of "The Barley Mow" and a cry of "Let the games begin"(that should be enough) and Pearly Queens are in attendance with both Morris dancers, Pipers and members of the Fire Brigade collecting for charity!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 08:37 AM

I did listen to a bit from the Imagined Village the other night, Gervase, and, rather than "implode in a messy splutter of outrage" said I didn't like it...I'd rather imagine being in a proper English village, with traditional English music being played in a traditional English pub,...a glass of mead in hand, a clog dancer by my side, and a plate of stottie and chips on the table; and, out the window, a weeping willow licking a river's flow, as snow falls gently on a bevy of swans...
And, as for horses, J from K, I'd rather see them running free in a field...
Poem 146 of 230: HORSES FOR COURSES?

To some, in income-anticipation,
    Horse-balking at gates is a small debase;
To me, it seems a memory/fear case
    Over the coming whip-castigation.
To some, the winning jockey's elation
    Is the highlight of an ended horserace;
To me, the horse's bulged veins and scared face
    Undermine the winners' celebration.
I can't condone a punter's desire
    To gamble rather than earn a living,
    But can acknowledge a jockey's courage;
I can't see and think as a raced sire,
    Nor feel the scrapes hedges are giving,
    But find horses choiceless in their bondage.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: lady penelope
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 10:19 AM

Bubble Boy.....

I'll get me groat....

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Joseph P
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 03:58 AM

WAV, whilst watching the Cambridge FF highlights, did you hear Benjamin Zephaniah's description of what it means to be British?

And a diet of stottie & chips with mead wouldnt be too good for your health, if you eat that sort of crap all the time I would go see a Doctor.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 04:15 AM

I'm beginning to get the impression that WAV and Lizzie Cornish are one and the same person.
This out-moded, dated, pastiche of an England that never was, and never could be is too sickly to stomach anymore.
2 Points, What the hell is a "bevy of Swanns" when they're at home?
Never seen a Swan in a pub in my life. (plenty hanging outside!)
As for, "I'd rather see horses running free in a field"
Not sure how you'd award the medals in the Show Jumping section.
Please WAV, you really ought to stop digging this hole. You are looking ever so slightly silly now.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 04:38 AM

Oh.
And a "Proper English Village" had it's "Proper English Pub" closed down 10 years ago, along with it's "Proper English Post Office", "Proper English Bus Service", "Proper English Corner Shop".
And most of the houses there are owned by wealthy city types, as a weekend retreat, making most of them ghost towns Monday to Friday.
You ought to go and visit a few sometime.
Even the "Proper Village Idiot" has probably recieved an ASBO

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 05:10 AM

IB - you are pro-immigration plus pro-fusion

Pro-reality in other words, WAV. There is no such thing as cultural purity - the Cultural Health & Diversity of Planet Earth is entirely the consequence of (and entirely dependent on) Human Migration. Even as individuals we're not Culturally Pure, nor even Ethnically Pure; no one is, WAV - not even you.

and, because you are an extreme case

If the cap fits...

lacking in formal education

What I actually lack is a higher education, but I will accept this as a compliment coming from one who, despite the obvious glories of his academic achievements, consistently demonstrates, publishes and promotes his complete & utter ignorance in the matters on which he feels he knows best.

you take to branding anyone who questions them as a "racist".

Fucking right I do - especially in this case, because you are.

There IS a difference between questioning immigration

It is not just your questioning of immigration that brands you as a racist (although it is a fair indication) it is also your volkish obsessions with cultural / ethnic purity and nationhood coupled with your erroneous belief that, as a consequence (and I quote) English culture is taking a hammering and, when people lose their own culture,society suffers. Thus it might be be shown beyond any shadow of a doubt that by your own published admission you are, indeed, a racist.

I, e.g., love the world being multicultural.

This is a specious rhetoric you have in common with all racists, WAV; it might well be considered as your defining racist qualification.

I'd rather imagine being in a proper English village, with traditional English music being played in a traditional English pub,...a glass of mead in hand, a clog dancer by my side, and a plate of stottie and chips on the table; and, out the window, a weeping willow licking a river's flow, as snow falls gently on a bevy of swans...

White birds, white snow, white bread, white chips, a white clog dancer; we get the message, WAV, loud & clear.

As for the Weeping Willow, however... first introduced to Britain from a German nursery in about 1908; a hybrid of garden origin, between a Chinese species, Salix babylonica and the White Willow, Salix alba. Interesting choice.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 05:20 AM

Now Children. Let's be nice to each other.

Slight gear change.
Once saw a Rastafarian Morris dancer...Wow! did those dreadlocks move!

Seconds out......Round 45!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Will Fly
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 05:31 AM

From Diane Easby:

"I could have got a real Welsh chapel harmonium on eBay the other day. I stopped bidding when the stakes suddenly shot up (as they do) but kicked myself when it went at only £102"

Diane - I picked up an ex-Birmingham chapel harmonium for £75 on eBay recently. If you're interested in having it for what I paid, send me a PM. It works fine but I'd underestimated the space available in my music room! (Might just have to look out for that Bontempi). I'm in Sussex, so could deliver...

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 06:32 AM

"I'm beginning to get the impression that WAV and Lizzie Cornish are one and the same person.
This out-moded, dated, pastiche of an England that never was, and never could be is too sickly to stomach anymore.
2 Points, What the hell is a "bevy of Swanns" when they're at home?
Never seen a Swan in a pub in my life. (plenty hanging outside!)
As for, "I'd rather see horses running free in a field"
Not sure how you'd award the medals in the Show Jumping section.
Please WAV, you really ought to stop digging this hole. You are looking ever so slightly silly now."...(Ralphie)...Bevy: flock or group of swans; and I said "out the window"; I'd ban show jumping and, like Cromwell, horse racing; so who's "looking ever so slightly silly now"?...I think you should join IB in some adult education aimed at improving one's ability to interpret things more clearly...
"White birds, white snow, white bread, white chips, a white clog dancer; we get the message, WAV, loud & clear."...(IB)...another misinterpretation from someone who lives in a democracy but thinks anyone who dares to question immigration should be branded a racist.

And to Will and Diane: I too hope to try a harmonium one day - at the moment I play just the tune on electric keyboards or, occasionally, "plead to play a pub's proper piano" (here).

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 08:24 AM

I think you should join IB in some adult education aimed at improving one's ability to interpret things more clearly...

WAV - once more...

My criticisms are entirely based on your published writings, and not directed against you personally. By publishing such offensively contentious & ill-considered crap, you are inviting interpretation, criticism and, indeed, the ridicule you seem (for whatever reason) to revel in. On the other hand, by commenting on my lack of a higher education, you are making a personal, and potentially hurtful, attack, especially given the reasons for that, which I'm sure you're aware of*. Please note, I do not comment on your abilities as a singer or instrumentalist; nor yet on your technical accomplishments in the field of poetry; neither would I ever dare to mention that a comb-over is as good as a syrup with respect to drawing attention to ones folically challenged bonce; just as I would never ever question why anyone with such a professed love of Traditional English Folk Singing would rather stay at home listening to the radio those nights that some of the finest singers in that particular field gather at his local folk club, which is held, incidentally, in one the few remaining Traditional English Village Pubs in Tyneside, o'er looking (as it does) the willow-licked waters of The Ouse Burn where swans glide (by the bevy) and many the night I've had a Traditional English Clog Dancer by my side. These things I do not mention, personal as indeed they are, so please, leave my education, or lack of same, as you perceive it, out of this.

* For the curious... For a working-class lout coming of age in the failing coal-fields of South-East Northumbria in the mid-late 1970s university was hardly an option. When I did eventually make it to Durham University as a mature student some fifteen years ago (to read for a single honours in English Language & Linguistics) my academic career was cut short by Myalgic Encephalitis following on from a severe infection that set in after my vasectomy. I have no beef with any of this by the way; ME is a reality of my life, likewise the consequent asthma, obesity, and the horrors of Vaso Vagal Syndrome; it is simply a matter of careful management, but in terms of social-class, one does carry a degree of stigma by not having a degree, especially working as I do in areas where most of my colleagues are graduates, such as my dear darling wife, who has two.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 10:43 AM

Hi Mr Beard.
I'm a filthy Londoner, but, I see where you're coming from.
Let's just leave Mr Troll WAV to his strange delusions of a misguided vision of Albion....
As for us...Happy to stand you a pint sometime!
Name your place, and your poison.
Kind regards Ralphie

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Joseph P
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 11:05 AM

I found a few months working behind a bar was just as much of an education as three years studying Philosophy at University! Sadly I discovered that writing what I thought the lecturer wanted to read was more successful than writing a good piece of work.

It seems to me that the education system rewards those that are good at retaining and spewing out certain information than those good at forming logical arguments. My time at University turned me into a bit of a pessimist!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:42 PM

"My criticisms are entirely based on your published writings, and not directed against you personally" (IB)...falsely calling someone a "racist" is not only defamatory but personal; and, in my defence, I've had to criticise you for your lack of ability to analyse such matters clearly, which formal study can improve our ability at. I'll try again - there IS a difference between questioning immigration and being racist; and I've only repeatedly questioned the act of immigration itself - NOT any particular culture or race. Two adults rarely or never agree on everything, and what I do admire in you is your enthusiasm for music, and your zest for life in general.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 04:06 PM

in my defence, I've had to criticise you for your lack of ability to analyse such matters clearly, which formal study can improve our ability at

Don't make me laugh. I've got a doctorate and I think your arguments are shallow, confused and deluded. I've seen no lack of ability in IB's comments, merely an entirely commendable persistence in disagreeing with you.

there IS a difference between questioning immigration and being racist; and I've only repeatedly questioned the act of immigration itself

There is a difference between being racist and questioning immigration for economic reasons, say, or for political reasons. But, as several of us have repeatedly pointed out, you question immigration on racial grounds. You want fewer people with the wrong kind of suntan to be allowed entry to England's green and pleasant land. It doesn't take a degree to work out that that's a racist attitude.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 04:23 PM

Incidentally, I'm passionate about keeping English traditional music alive - or rather, keeping alive the tradition of keeping English traditional music alive. By which I mean, there's no point denying that the tradition is at one remove now - I've never met a ploughboy or seen a top-sail hoisted - so there is a Sealed Knot element to what we do. But the music still rings out - some of the peak experiences of my life in the last couple of years have involved a lot of voices in a little room.

But what that's got to do with trying to stop people moving around with a view to keeping their different cultures distinct... well, nothing, is what it's got to do with it.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 04:25 PM

'I'd rather imagine being in a proper English village, with traditional English music being played in a traditional English pub,...a glass of mead in hand, a clog dancer by my side, and a plate of stottie and chips on the table; and, out the window, a weeping willow licking a river's flow, as snow falls gently on a bevy of swans...'

well piss off there!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 04:52 PM

Besides, everyone knows it's a swither of swans.

While you're there, WLD, I thought this comment summed the whole thing up:

its aleady been decided by radio 4, the house of commons, a select committee of ex public schoolboys and Andrew lloyd webber - so I'm afraid its bollocks to you lot - multicultural and otherwise.

And that's how England works. get used to it.

Its just bound to be awful. that's how we do things. Its traditional.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Gervase
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 05:41 PM

I've never met a ploughboy or seen a top-sail hoisted - so there is a Sealed Knot element to what we do. But the music still rings out - some of the peak experiences of my life in the last couple of years have involved a lot of voices in a little room.
Thanks for that, Pip Radish; a lovely turn of phrase which I shall steal quite shamelessly. Well put!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 05:59 PM

'I've never met a ploughboy or seen a top-sail hoisted'

you should get out more....

put an advert in the paper
wanted:
ploughboy (pleasingly merrie ....after about six gin and tonics). if you haul on my topsail, I'll haul on yours.....who knows, we might get it up!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:45 AM

WLD

Slight correction. Aren't Ploughboys supposed to be Merry and Gay?
Would you want to spend time with a drunk 18 stone bloke with a moustache, tight leather trousers, accompanied by 2 stonking great Shire horses??

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 03:32 AM

There's a "farewell dearest Nancy" joke in there somewhere.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 03:52 AM

"...traditional English pub...a glass of mead in hand, a clog dancer by my side, and a plate of stottie and chips on the table..."

This sounds like no part of England to me. I've been in a hell of a lot of English pubs and the only pub I've ever seen Mead in is a Welsh one. The chips are the only thing that are common in my area & I'd never heard of a Stottie until your post.

Mead apparently is first mentioned in India & is found in cultures all over the world
Clog dancing is thought to have originated in Lancashire in the Industrial Revolution (not a very long tradition)
Stotties are from the North-East of England - an area whose language and culture is heavily influenced by Scotland & Scandinavia.
Chips are a French invention using a foodstuff originating in South America.

As an Englishman from Devon, if I found myself in a pub with... "...a glass of mead in hand, a clog dancer by my side, and a plate of stottie and chips on the table..." I'd feel a long way from home.


IMHO The English language & "English people" are distinctive because of their mongrel nature. Like the Borg in Star Trek we're great at assimilating and grabbing the best from the cultures that we encounter and absorbing new blood. For example, where would "English" life be without pyjamas, bitter, roast beef, cultivated strawberries, or village churches?

Back on the original subject, the origins of Morris dancing are hardly local themselves.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 04:28 AM

When you're 18 stone, all trousers are are tight - leather or otherwise....

and no one without the use of hallucenogenics has experienced being in a pub "...a glass of mead in hand, a clog dancer by my side, and a plate of stottie and chips on the table..."

just imagine if that were the norm, if you went out for a drink and that served you that crap. I think I'd emigrate.

I'd rather be roaming in the gloaming with a haggis in me sporran, a bonnie lassie, a braw bricht moonlit nicht, Kenneth McKellar's Midnight Cabaret in the Burns Unit on the jukebox, a tin of shortbread for company, a lass of Ir'n Brew, and Billy Connolly Rides a motorbike up his own arse on the TV, followed by Dr Finlay and a documentary I was the speech coach for Taggart on the TV.....

don't you get it?

the rest of the world has moved on from crude racial stereotypes. every second black English person you meet, says, well actually I was never all that keen on Bob Marley and I never follow cricket.

the whole point of the folkrevival is that English folk music is incredibly rich, musically complex, and very diverse - and we've all got a stake somewhere in there, cos its ours.

WAV, your views on folk music are like the worsst excesses of the 1970's. Music of Cromwellian simplicity and some sort of medieval banquet going on with serving wenches, mead and the like. If you had lived through those times - you wouldn't want them back.

I was always a chicken in the basket and black forest gateau man myself.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 05:33 AM

"you question immigration on racial grounds. You want fewer people with the wrong kind of suntan to be allowed entry to England's green and pleasant land. It doesn't take a degree to work out that that's a racist attitude." (Pip)...in order to brand me as a racist, you've had to accuse me of saying things I have NOT said - again false and defamatory.
"black English person you meet, says, well actually I was never all that keen on Bob Marley" (WLD)..perhaps that's partly because Marley's "movement of the people" involved (as with Marcus Garvey and the Rastafarian belief in general) people of African origin returning to Africa. When I was in Kenya, I came across a Rastafarian politician who had done just that, and there are many more Rastas in Ethiopia (a statement of fact that I doubt the above-mentioned Benjamin would argue with).

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 05:45 AM

(IB)...falsely calling someone a "racist" is not only defamatory but personal

This not a false accusation, but one based fairly & squarely on your published writings. You write this stuff, WAV and everything I've said is directed against what you have written & published.

and, in my defence, I've had to criticise you for your lack of ability to analyse such matters clearly, which formal study can improve our ability at.

Unless inebriated, I have no problem whatsoever with clear analysis - and, as has been pointed out, formal study is very often a hindrance to such abilities anyway, though I in no way resent academia. Further - the simplistic sloganeering that you specialise in does not require analysis; it would be clear to a five-year-old what your true feelings are, though perhaps, in later life, they might begin to wonder why you feel this way, much less why you feel the need to publish the fact.

I'll try again - there IS a difference between questioning immigration and being racist;

You're not trying though. Time & time again you've been invited to explain just how there is a difference between questioning immigration and being a racist, especially when, as has been pointed out (time & time again) that your anti-immigration stance is but a facet, albeit a crucial one, of your overall, and very evident, racist philosophy. So please explain what the difference is, especially in relation to your visions of ethnically cleansed & culturally segregated humanity.

and I've only repeatedly questioned the act of immigration itself - NOT any particular culture or race.

What about the English? That's one very particular culture & race you take great delight in banging on about with your misguided whiter-than-white vision of the England of the 1950s before immigration. That, by very definite implication, is racist thinking, WAV; and like all racist thinking, it is 100% bullshit.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 05:57 AM

in order to brand me as a racist, you've had to accuse me of saying things I have NOT said

WAV: do you care how many people with brown skins come to England? Does non-white immigration matter to you? Say No and I'll consider the possibility that you might not be a racist.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 06:49 AM

How many times must I say it, Pip: I think the UN should regulate immigration/emigration the world over (REGARDLESS of your "skins"), including making economic/capitalist immigration/emigration illegal, from now on.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Joseph P
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 06:55 AM

And you also argue that in England, we should be encouraged to practice 'traditional English customs' eating foods such as stotties instead of curry?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 06:59 AM

You do realise that that would stop you taking up a job elsewhere, or scientists, doctors, artists etc moving countries?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,JM
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 07:00 AM

"How many times must I say it, Pip: I think the UN should regulate immigration/emigration the world over (REGARDLESS of your "skins"), including making economic/capitalist immigration/emigration illegal, from now on."

OK, but why? What are the problems caused by immigration/emigration that you think can be solved by banning it?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Joseph P
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 07:03 AM

"OK, but why? What are the problems caused by immigration/emigration that you think can be solved by banning it? "

The dangers of cultural dilution, and the need to protect the single, pure English culture seems to be one of the main arguments.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 07:12 AM

The entire premise of this thread is racist, beginning as it does with a racially biased overview of what might (and implication might not) constitute an English Dance or an English Musical Instrument. As can be proven, not one of these is in any way, shape or form indigenous to an English People, as far as such a people can be proven to exist beyond the perpetrator's exclusively white fantasy of same.

If we accept, as we must, that the only possible definition of the English People is The People Who Have Made Their Lives in England, regardless of ethnicity or country of origin, then what are we to make of such bizarre catalogues other than a rallying call to those of a similarly racist bent to the esteemed author?

Again he urges the UN to make economic / capitalist immigration / emigration illegal, from now on, but he does not explain why. I thus offer him an invitation to do so. You say you are not racist, WAV - I'm afraid, right now, the onus is on you to prove it.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Kampervan
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 07:26 AM

The idea that English society, culture or anything else is pure is crazy.
'Englishness', whatever that is, is an amalgam of several hundred years or more of assimilation of different cultures, peoples, religions.
What we have now is not the end. It must not and cannot be static. It will carry on changing, for better or worse depending on an individuals viewpoint.

All immigrants will bring something new and we should be glad of that. It doesn't negate what we are, it adds to it and should be welcomed.

k/van

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,JM
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:06 AM

""OK, but why? What are the problems caused by immigration/emigration that you think can be solved by banning it? "

The dangers of cultural dilution, and the need to protect the single, pure English culture seems to be one of the main arguments."

Hang on - I want to hear WAV's answer to this....

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Joseph P
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:19 AM

But that is WAV's main reasons, he has been asked this question before and has then gone on to talk about the preservation of English (and all other national) cultures, as opposed to stopping immigration for economic or other reasons.

I dont wish to put words in WAVs mouth, however, considering his amazing ability to aviod direct responses to questions, I have to say that this seems to be the reason he has stated elsewhere.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:42 AM

Be honest - the same people have asked me the same question numerous times on Mudcat, and I HAVE answered frankly giving several reasons...trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law will always be problematic (and even New Labour - having strongly promoted immigration/the multicultural state for nearly a decade - have just begun to lean this way with English tests, etc., for potential immigrants); ethnic conflict; it's much more difficult for tourists to terrorise; when people lose their own culture, society suffers; 50 million is too many people for the area of land called England; etc.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: melodeonboy
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 09:24 AM

Let's be, to quote IB, "pro-reality", shall we?

I'm not aware of any countries (i.e. governments) that don't question immigration; that's why they all, to the best of my knowledge, have policies and limits on immigration. If they didn't, they would not be serving in the best interests of their citizens.

Both immigration itself and immigration controls are facts of life just about anywhere in the world. It's almost impossible (unless you're an absolute nutter!) to be "pro-immigration" or anti-immigration" in an absolute sense. What we and others can (and do!) disagree on is the extent and nature of that immigration.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 09:29 AM

Be honest

An auspicious overture if ever there was one...

the same people have asked me the same question numerous times on Mudcat, and I HAVE answered frankly giving several reasons...

Not reasons, WAV - just more helpings of your rhetorical sloganeering.

trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law will always be problematic

We've been doing just fine in England these past 10,000 years give or take the occasional scuffle. Invasion results in eventual assimilation & culture is always a matter of change; just clock the names on the list of Bishops in Durham Cathedral after 1066. Not without its problems, but such is history, and such is humanity. Seems to me you feel you can / should control such things; that there exists a higher God-like morality to which we must all be be subjected whether we want it our not; a morality which you alone are privy to. Well, that's been tried, WAV - and it didn't work.

(and even New Labour - having strongly promoted immigration/the multicultural state for nearly a decade - have just begun to lean this way with English tests, etc., for potential immigrants)

Hurrah for New Labour, bunch of mushy-mouthed motherfuckers the lot of them. Who gives a fuck what they think? It's all just spin & hype anyway.

; ethnic conflict;

Rivers of Blood, no doubt - but such conflicts are the exception rather than the rule, and even then exceptions stirred up by such racist propaganda as you've obviously been suckling on, otherwise there'd be even less.

it's much more difficult for tourists to terrorise;

Nice one, WAV - try telling that to the victims of 9/11. Otherwise - where are all these terrorists? Or do you get off the train whenever a Muslim back-backer gets on?

when people lose their own culture, society suffers;

And just who, exactly, has lost their culture? And who is suffering as a result? You see, these are the sort of questions we really need answering here because we've heard all this rhetorical bullshit before and it simply isn't true - on the contrary, in terms of your somewhat myopic vision of what constitutes Our Own Good English Culture, things are healthier now than ever they were. So - where's the problem???

50 million is too many people for the area of land called England; etc.

So what now? Eugenics? Offing the disabled? Repatriating the immigrants? Deathcamps for racially impure? Punishments for couples who have more than one child? Enforced sterilisation of the underclass? What is your answer to this? Because if you see that as a problem (which it isn't) then you must have a solution in mind. That's the worrying thing, all these things you are so resolutely & righteously against that involve the lives and rights of countless thousands of people who must, somehow, be answerable to what you think.

So - enough of the slogans already, WAV; you're not being asked to design t-shirts, rather being invited to give account of your ideas & the logic & reasoning behind them. Take your time - no rush; and please be thorough; I want to see it all accounted for - facts, figures, sources etc. And I want to know just how we have lost our culture and how, for that matter, we are suffering because of it, because, from where I'm standing, nothing could be further from the truth.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,JM
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 09:35 AM

No WAV, you haven't answered the question adequately - you never do.

I don't think you're a racist (necessarily) but I do think you use dangerous language and terminology without properly explaining yourself or backing it up. It is very easy to read racist intentions into the stock phrases that you repeat time and time again, and unless you clarify and put a bit more thought into your arguments then other cannot be blamed for drawing their own conclusions. You simply cannot throw phrases like "trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law will always be problematic(...)when people lose their own culture, society suffers" around without an iron-clad reasoning.

While the opinions that you express might pass muster in a smaller, less knowledgeable group of people, Mudcat is an internationally read forum populated by posters who actually know things. You lecture about the role of the EFDSS on threads contributed to by John Adams, Derek Schofield, and Ruth Archer. You argue about traditional music with Eliza. There are lots of people on Mudcat who have devoted their entire lives to traditional music and yet you seem to think that you have. Meanwhile, the only sources that you offer to back up your ridiculous ideas are Wikipedia or your own website of poetry.

If you want to be taken seriously (and I think that ship has sailed long ago) then you need to re-think your ideas and present them in a better way. It is not the act of questioning immigration that causes problems but the motives behind you questioning it, and since you refuse to clarify what those motives are it is only natural that people will jump to conclusions.

As for "good English culture", I think your posts demonstrate that you have a very skewed idea of what English culture is.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Joseph P
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 10:10 AM

WAV also seems to ignore the argument that cultural borders do not exist. In my opinion there is no single national culture.

Culture consists of all the activities that are of significance to us as individuals and as groups such as language, food, art, religion, music and sport.

There are specific aspects of cultures unique to certain geographical areas, and some of these happen to fall in line with national boundaries, but such aspects are only a tiny part of our cultural makeup. None of the above things (language, food etc) can be used to justify linking cultural groups with specific nations. Language is an extremely important factor, yet many nations have more than one official language, with large numbers of people speaking different languages. Much of what makes up our culture has historically spread along routes of trade and migration.

In order to protect England from foreign cultural influence, as well as banning immigration, all foreign films, music, books, websites etc would have to be banned (including the use of Mudcat, bloody Americans and other foreigners putting across their views, we can't have that). The idea of such a cultural purge is absurd.

Now, should we ban immigration to save morris dancing?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 10:18 AM

No, that wouldn't work - we wouldn't have got it from the Spanish and Basques then. Nor would we be passing it onto the French, Dutch, Germans and Americans.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 10:41 AM

I think you're the one who owes me an apology, WAV.

You write:

when people lose their own culture, society suffers

and

trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law will always be problematic

So everyone should have a culture of their own, but there shouldn't be more than one culture in each nation. Foreigners shouldn't bring foreign culture to England (too many cultures) and they shouldn't assimilate (and lose their own culture).

Or, as I said, You want fewer people with the wrong kind of suntan to be allowed entry to England's green and pleasant land.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:35 PM

When you're 18 stone, all trousers are are tight - leather or otherwise....

Lightweight! What I wouldn't give to be 18 stone again - though I am working on it. That said, I always manage to wear baggy trousers (invariably Italian Airforce surplus, waist size classified, from The City Surplus stores in Newcastle) and do all my shirt shopping at Big Ozzy's in Leyburn. I decided to lose weight when accused of looking like an American tourist in Edinburgh recently... But, look at that blue advert link below the submit message button - 1 Rule of a Flat Stomach... hmmmm... must investigate....

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:45 PM

"Or, as I said, You want fewer people with the wrong kind of suntan to be allowed entry to England's green and pleasant land."...I answer you frankly, and then you go back to saying I said things I did not say - even putting them in italics to perhaps make newbies to the thread think that I really did post them - gutter tactics, Pip; and, speaking of which: "Hurrah for New Labour, bunch of mushy-mouthed motherfuckers the lot of them. Who gives a fuck what they think? It's all just spin & hype anyway." (IB)...I, too, disagree with New Labour on quite a lot, but I wouldn't resort to that kind of extreme language.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 01:39 PM

No, WAV, it's in italics because it's a quote from my own previous comment.

Yes, you answered me frankly, and I drew out the implications of what you said. It seems to me that the implications of what you said are that foreigners shouldn't bring foreign culture to England (too many cultures) and they shouldn't assimilate (and lose their own culture). Hence that foreigners shouldn't come to England at all.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: romany man
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 02:06 PM

Can we get back to 5000 morris dancers, and not start on immigration, (as one who suffers daily discrimination, due to the fact im of romany parentage.)the one reason it wont happen is they could never afford the beer bill. also would they mix border with cotswold, or rapper with longsword, could be a bloody event if they did.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 02:37 PM

...different sides would have to be dancing to the same tune and, as you say RM, that may not be possible...?...when I've seen several - in Durham, Newcastle, and Hexham - they've always taken turns, to different tunes.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: romany man
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 02:51 PM

WV sounds like it could be a long event, perhaps it could be strung out to cover the whole two weeks thus doing away with all that running jumping stuff they insist on.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 03:04 PM

...I think Tessa Jowell said something about having opening ceremonIES in various parts of London...not sure about that...but it would provide for different Morris sides!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 05:13 AM

but I wouldn't resort to that kind of extreme language.

WAV - the language you do resort to is as obscene & offensive as any I've read; your manifesto is one of racist cultural revisionism in which the objective glories of human reality are eschewed in favour of the subjective neuroses of a bitterly twisted personal fantasy. History teaches us that few things are more offensive than that.

Meanwhile, I still await your response to my last post of yesterday.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 05:14 AM

Meanwhile, I still await your response to my last post of yesterday.

My last post directed at you that is.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 05:24 AM

Sorry RM - we managed a couple of Morris posts, and I was hoping the latest was from a dancer who might have shed more light on how the different sides might be accomodated in such ceremonies - but I, AGAIN, have to defend myself against the extreme pro-immigrationist IB.
You don't like/hate me questioning immigration and encouraging more English culture in England, so you keep trying to brand me as a "racist". And this is how you brand New Labout: "bunch of mushy-mouthed motherfuckers the lot of them." And this is how you brand yourself: Insane Beard...I don't think your beard is insane.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 05:52 AM

You don't like/hate me questioning immigration and encouraging more English culture in England, so you keep trying to brand me as a "racist".

The point is (as I know I've said before) that you're questioning immigration on racist grounds. You believe that having multiple cultures in one state is a bad thing (so foreign people shouldn't come to England and maintain their own culture) and that for people to lose their culture is a bad thing (so foreign people shouldn't come to England and assimilate). You believe that different cultures, ethnicities, races should be kept separate - regardless of what the human beings involved might want to do. That is racism.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 06:37 AM

I just gave some of the groundS on which I, and others, question immigration, WR, and none of them are racist. Racism is where someone says they are all like this or that, which I have never done. I have, rather, travelled on a shoestring through about 40 countries, majored in anthropology, with distinctions, at least tried to support the land rights of Masai, Aborigines, etc.. I'd be one of the least racist people in the world, but some of you extreme pro-immigrationists try and brand me so because you don't like immigration, or the amount of it, being questioned/criticised.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 06:43 AM

Sorry RM - we managed a couple of Morris posts, and I was hoping the latest was from a dancer who might have shed more light on how the different sides might be accomodated in such ceremonies

This thread was never about Morris Dancing, WAV - beginning as it does with a racially biased overview of what might (and implication might not) constitute an English Dance or an English Musical Instrument. As can be proven, not one of these is in any way, shape or form indigenous to an English People, as far as such a people can be proven to exist beyond your exclusively white fantasy of same.

but I, AGAIN, have to defend myself against the extreme pro-immigrationist IB.

You've been asked some very important questions with respect to your published ideology, WAV - questions you continually avoid by throwing up smokescreens, such as the one above. You feel you are under attack, which is ironic given the overall offensiveness of your world-view; a word-view you dedicate your life to the promotion of, and yet somehow lack the courage of your obvious convictions to account for.

You don't like/hate me questioning immigration and encouraging more English culture in England, so you keep trying to brand me as a "racist".

It is not just your questioning of immigration that bothers me, WAV - rather, it is your questioning of immigration coupled with your fantasy vision of what actually constitutes English Culture. What you see as English Culture is, in fact, the hobbyist concern of but a small minority of English People (folkies in other words) without whom it would have died the death long ago. In fact, it might be argued that in terms of actual cultural & social process and relevance it did die the death long ago and what we have now is but a quaint reconstruction lovingly maintained by a handful of dedicated enthusiasts, in much the same way that an old steam engine might be similarly kept running. Actual English Culture is that which is of concern to the any one of the English People (i.e. the 50 million citizens of England whatever their ethnicity or country of origin); so it's a pretty complex beast - and one which has precious little to do with your anachronistic & divisively racist and volkish concerns. As someone supposedly trained in the discipline of Anthropology one would think you would have understood this; but as it stands somewhat contrary to your racially exclusive fantasy, then it would appear you're bending the facts to fit the theories - hardly sound method in any academic discipline.   

And this is how you brand New Labout: "bunch of mushy-mouthed motherfuckers the lot of them."

I grow weary of political hype & rhetoric, whatever the stripe; I grow weary of their concerns and hypocrisy; I grow weary of the so-called Green issues we're constantly bombarded with; I am weary of Carrier-bag Ecologists and the countryside being fucked over by next to useless bloody windfarms; I am weary with their nannying interference in such cultural issues as fox-hunting & smoking in pubs; I am weary of it all because politicians have no actual connection with life; thus do I call them a bunch of mushy-mouthed motherfuckers. But this is just an opinion, WAV - one which I am, no doubt, entitled to: otherwise, I do not publish my feelings, nor yet actively promote them as the best way forward for humanity, and I welcome & encourage feelings to the contrary just as long as they don't amount to a pig-headed racist manifesto masquerading as the poetic musings of a benign ideologue.         

And this is how you brand yourself: Insane Beard...I don't think your beard is insane.

Insane Beard is not a brand, WAV - it is an anagram of my given name; one of many, I might add, but the most appropriate, I thought, to a folky forum such as Mudcat.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 07:29 AM

Racism is where someone says they are all like this or that

No. Racism is prejudice or discrimination against entire ethnic or cultural groups. Racism is looking at the colour of someone's skin and drawing conclusions about them.

You've said that you 'question' immigration on the grounds that

when people lose their own culture, society suffers

and

trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law will always be problematic

You also say that these beliefs don't make you a racist. That's the part I don't understand. You can't look at people with brown skins and think "they're all right, they're not English like me but that's OK": according to you, that's not OK (trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law will always be problematic). But you can't look at them and think "they're all right, they're just as English as me", because (according to you) if they were just as English as you that would be a bad thing (when people lose their own culture, society suffers).

In short, if you believe what you've been saying, you cannot not be racist.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 07:42 AM

If someone says, e.g., I don't mind people coming here from that part of the world, but I hate the ones from there, that IS racism - but it is NOT my stance.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Joseph P
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 07:58 AM

Yes what you say is an example of racism, and that particular brand of racism may be something that you do not believe, but it does not mean that what you do believe is not in itself racist.

Just because all men are human, it does not mean that all humans are men.

Likewise, questioning immigration does NOT make someone a racist, however questioning immigration on the grounds you do, of the mixing of cultures resulting in suffering, is not only illogical, but is a form of racial discrimination.

Have a look at where there are problems with different racial and cultural groups in the UK. What is the root cause of the problems in these areas? If you look closely, you will see it is not that there are people of different ethnic origin living in England, it is usually poverty, drugs, lack of education etc, where it is too easy to make a scapegoat of immigrants.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 08:05 AM

So what is your stance? You don't hate people from other parts of the world, but you do mind them coming here?

I'll spell it out once more. If you believe (as I'm confident that you do) that trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law will always be problematic, then you must think that brown-skinned people should either become English or leave England - or, if possible, not come to England in the first place. And if you believe that when people lose their own culture, society suffers, then you must think that brown-skinned people either can't or shouldn't become English. So they should either leave England or not come here - all of them, not because of who they are as individuals but because of what they are.

Or, as I said before, "you want fewer people with the wrong kind of suntan to be allowed entry to England's green and pleasant land".

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 08:17 AM

If someone says, e.g., I don't mind people coming here from that part of the world, but I hate the ones from there, that IS racism - but it is NOT my stance.

Bollocks WAV - by your own admission that is exactly your stance. In response to England's age-long multi-cultural history you say:

Yes England, e.g, is (or was until about 50 years ago) an old old blend of mostly European cultures.

White cultures in other words, WAV; and, because of non-white immigration:

English culture is taking a hammering and, when people lose their own culture,society suffers.

Your words, WAV - not twisted, nor yet taken out of context.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 08:17 AM

If, however, it is acceptable for one group of persons to be proud of their heritage and/or culture and to wish to preserve and defend it so must it be for others.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 08:44 AM

"Yes England, e.g, is (or was until about 50 years ago) an old old blend of mostly European cultures."...I'm not sure what context I was responding to there, but sensible people would understand that as a statement of fact, IB. It, and the following quote, is NOT criticising people from any particular part of Europe or anyware else. So it's not "If someone says, e.g., I don't mind people coming here from that part of the world, but I hate the ones from there, that IS racism - but it is NOT my stance" from me that is "bollocks" - it's your attempt at analysis; other attempts see you come up with conclusions like this: "Hurrah for New Labour, bunch of mushy-mouthed motherfuckers the lot of them. Who gives a fuck what they think? It's all just spin & hype anyway."..."the lot of them"?
And, on the "Cambridge Folk Festival" BBC "highlights" noted above, there was no clog or Morris dancing, and not one song was sung the unaccompanied, centuries-old, way of our forebears - and sort of thing does make me defensive in the way that RB just noted. And if you believe that to be the case, IB, aren't you also at least a tad disappointed with the BBC?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 09:03 AM

If, however, it is acceptable for one group of persons to be proud of their heritage and/or culture and to wish to preserve and defend it so must it be for others.

Such quaint concepts as an English Heritage and/or Culture are entirely a matter of subjective interpretation, choice and recreation, and therefore have no currency whatsoever with regards to their political or human cause - and this is as true of English Folk Song, Music and Dance as it is of the Coal Mining, Country Estates, or Steam Engines. Unlike Coal mining, Country Estates & Steam Engines however, with English Folk Song, Music and Dance there is nothing to preserve that isn't doing rather better in the context of the England of 2008 than it was in say, the 1950s, which is WAV's cut-off point for English Cultural Purity, before we started -   

Letting people
Enter a state
For factors like
Terror through hate.

Thus, when WAV says English culture is taking a hammering and, when people lose their own culture,society suffers, he is, as ever, talking out of his arse.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 09:40 AM

I asked you not to post my poems willie nillie, IB, and you haven't done that for ages - that's only part of poem 75 (refering to the help for genuine asylum seekers that I do support), from my collection, which does have a (c) on it.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 10:01 AM

"Yes England, e.g, is (or was until about 50 years ago) an old old blend of mostly European cultures."...I'm not sure what context I was responding to there

You were responding to your ideas on immigration being questioned with regard to the historical nature of British Culture being made up of countless thousands of years of immigration.

but sensible people would understand that as a statement of fact, IB. It, and the following quote, is NOT criticising people from any particular part of Europe or anyware else. So it's not "If someone says, e.g., I don't mind people coming here from that part of the world, but I hate the ones from there, that IS racism -

Sensible people would rightly infer that the subtext here, just as the subtext of your Catalogues of English Dances & Musical Instruments that opened this thread, is one of racial & cultural exclusion in which you are as good as saying you hate non-white English cultures & question their right to be here.   

but it is NOT my stance" from me that is "bollocks" - it's your attempt at analysis; other attempts see you come up with conclusions like this: "Hurrah for New Labour, bunch of mushy-mouthed motherfuckers the lot of them. Who gives a fuck what they think? It's all just spin & hype anyway."..."the lot of them"?

My expressed opinion on New Labour is exactly that, WAV - an expressed opinion; as such it is personal, and entirely unpublished. Likewise, when you call me an extreme pro-immigrationist you are interpreting an expressed opinion, albeit a lack of one because I have not expressed my views on immigration one way or the other - rather, I have offered you a few salient truths on the situation in response to your published ideas on the subject. There is a subtle but important difference here; you choose to publish your ideas, therefore it is I, your public, who has the right of criticism.

And, on the "Cambridge Folk Festival" BBC "highlights" noted above, there was no clog or Morris dancing, and not one song was sung the unaccompanied, centuries-old, way of our forebears - and sort of thing does make me defensive in the way that RB just noted. And if you believe that to be the case, IB, aren't you also at least a tad disappointed with the BBC?

Like most folkies, I get my unaccompanied folk singing in context, WAV - I go to festivals, singarounds, folk clubs; I plunder the archives for field recordings of source singers, and I study books, manuscripts & collections. I do this because I love it - because I'm a boring old traddy. What happens at The Cambridge Folk Festival is of no concern to me - not my bag I'm afraid, so I don't go, and I don't watch it on TV either; TV isn't for folk music, unless there's something of archive interest on, like the BBC4 programme about Bob Copper I watched a while back, but that's pretty exceptional I'd say. The sort of folk you're on about isn't a spectator sport; it's a doing thang, as much about context as content; and that just doesn't translate to mass media, which is but one of the reasons I love it.

What you really need to do is study this stuff, WAV - if you love it, enjoy it for what it is, and enjoy it whilst you can because it's only there because people are doing it, for the love of it, the passion; as such it's entirely empirical, existing as it does in a state of constant & perilous flux, but that's in the nature of folk. My maternal grandfather was a champion clog dancer in the Durham Tadition; long dead before I was born, but none of his children bothered with it, and I dare say he didn't force them to either. Now there's more people doing it than ever, but that doesn't mean it belongs on fucking television. Shit, man - television is the reason people aren't singing any more - because they're stuck in watching TV when once upon a time they would have been out there doing it! So ditch the TV and get yourself out there, WAV - seek it out, join a morris side, buy some clogs, have some fun why don't you. Your Own Good Culture needs you, WAV - it needs your active input & your active involvement & participation; it needs your passion, and your faith, & your enthusiasm. One thing it does not need, however, is your cranky notions & misguided manifestos - so for God's sake, leave the Walkabouts at home. You want a bonny clog dancer by your side sipping mead whilst watching swans gliding on the willow licked waters of The Ouse Burn? Trust me, self-publishing contentious & entirely subjective polemic ne'er won fair lady.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 10:19 AM

I asked you not to post my poems willie nillie, IB,

Quotation is sound critical method, WAV - I'm not posting your verse, rather using your words to illustrate my interpretation of them & the ideas they convey. Regardless of what your intention might have been, their meaning is, in any context, quite unambiguous.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 03:01 PM

IB - Some of the poems in my collection are more dependent on the poems around them than others, and I've never included that one (75) in my "Weekly Walkabout" (BS thread). But, in it, I'm looking at immigration, including the idea that there will probably always be a need for genuine asylum seekers to be helped by other nations; and, in another poem, I detail that I think it should be the nearest (especially in terms of culture) safe nation that does so - via the UN. I thought that you would have agreed with at least part of this argument - i.e., the part you posted above.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: romany man
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 03:26 PM

Do you lot know anything about racism, do you know as a romany if i bought land to live on and applied for planning permission, the chances are it will not be granted , if you as a non romany bought the same bit of land for the same reason and applied for planning, it would be granted. NOW CUT THE CRAP AND GET BACK TO THE THREAD, ive only been on mud cat a while and already i can see bitching back biting and general crap. Oh and as an aside do you know romani dont have a bad name for non roma, the nearest you get is gorga, meaning of non romany descent, yet you lot think nothing of calling us as many bad names as possible, ie pikey, gipo, didikoi, etc, end of my input until we get back to something sensible.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 03:30 PM

I'm tired of this, WAV. Thread after thread, whatever the ostensible subject, you proclaim that you're questioning immigration, on the grounds that multiple cultures shouldn't live together, then protest vociferously against any suggestion that you're racist. It's about as convincing as Ian Paisley claiming to be a peacemaker, and not much more funny.

I'll try and get through to you one more time.

Vera says: "I've got nothing against poofs, I just wouldn't want them down our street". Vera doesn't think she's prejudiced against gays, but I think it's pretty clear that she is.

Joe says: "I like women, but I wish they'd stay at home and let men do the work". Joe genuinely doesn't dislike women, in their place - which is in the home, as far as he's concerned. Because he doesn't feel hostile and aggressive towards women, Joe doesn't think he's a sexist - but it's pretty obvious that he is.

WAV says: "I love the world being multicultural, but trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law will always be problematic". WAV genuinely doesn't dislike blacks and Asians, in their place - which is not in England, as far as he's concerned. Because he doesn't feel hostile and aggressive towards blacks and Asians, WAV doesn't think he's a racist...

Any clearer?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Insane Beard
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 04:43 PM

I thought that you would have agreed with at least part of this argument - i.e., the part you posted above.

The part I posted above basically says that all immigrants are terrorists, does it not? Which ties in with your wonderful slogan it's much more difficult for tourists to terrorise. How can I possibly agree with that when it clearly isn't true? If this isn't what you mean, WAV, then by all means clarify.

I wonder where Romany / Traveller culture fits into your scheme of Englishness or else a Multi-Cultural World.

Also, out of genuine curiosity, I also wonder - are there as many as 5000 Morris Dancers in England? I'd love to have the exact numbers. Is it true there are more Morris Dancers in America than there are in England? Does this matter?

Meanwhile, remember this?

The Abbots Bromley Horn Dance, Ren Fair Style

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 05:15 PM

"The part I posted above basically says that all immigrants are terrorists" (IB)...how on earth did you come up with that?! It's, as I explained above in prose, about the need for nations to accept genuine asylum seekers who experience trouble in their own country, which I see as a LEFT-wing policy (and, on my site, which you decided to abstract it from, when I'd asked you not to, those letters are in bold print; and the rest of the poem, at least, IS also needed for clarity).
"Also, out of genuine curiosity, I also wonder - are there as many as 5000 Morris Dancers in England?" (IB)...don't know, but I think members of The Morris Ring would have some idea, and I hope we can stay on such matters, as RM requested...

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 05:27 PM

Meanwhile, remember this?

The Abbots Bromley Horn Dance, Ren Fair Style

Dear Lord, that's awful. I do like the snoods, though. We must be due a snood revival.

(You didn't make it to the Beech either? Shame.)

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 05:54 PM

I just re-read these 199 posts after getting back from looking at the building site where it's all going to happen. And I don't really care whether 5,000 Morris dancers (if they can be mustered) do anything at all there in just under four years time. I very much hope to be somewhere else.

200 posts. What a waste of time and energy.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 06:08 PM

Diane ,I agree.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 06:32 PM

Just a thought.
WAV was asked to move his many and various poem threads to the BS section of Mudcat a while ago, which he did.
For those that are new to this site...
BS means Bull Shit.
Best place for him, I think.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 04:46 AM

BS actually means Breeze Shooting, a general heading for non-music discussion & a more levititious exchange...

Meanwhile...

how on earth did you come up with that?!

It made perfect sense in the context of your other arguments, for example: it's much more difficult for tourists to terrorise. It actually reads like you disagree with the Left for allowing in immigrants because their sole intention is to become terrorists. If that's not what you meant, I apologise, but strongly suggest you implement a regime of disambiguation.

and I hope we can stay on such matters, as RM requested

As I suggested above, this thread was never simply about Morris Dancing, beginning as it does with a culturally divisive catalogue of English Dances & Musical Instruments, most of which amount to the hobbyist concern (as oppose to the living tradition) of but a tiny minority of the 50 million or so human souls currently resident upon English soil, whatever their ethnicity. You might as well ask for a massed model railway display or a parade of vintage Ford Anglias.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 06:13 AM

"but strongly suggest you implement a regime of disambiguation." (IB)...like asking you again to respect the (C) and not post bits of my verse willie nillie - as I say, some of my poems do rely on the poems around them more than others and, thus, some never get posted/abstracted on my Weekly Walkabout thread; which, yes Ralphie, is down in the BS section (but it's the Mods that regulate that, NOT me).
And, IB, if you check above, I'd began to consider the London ceremonies when the Athens Olympics was on - so hearing Seb Coe on the Beeb, during the Beijing Olympics, WAS news on the same matter.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 08:54 AM

asking you again to respect the (C) and not post bits of my verse willie nillie

You've linked to your site no fewer than eleven times in this thread, sometimes as a direct response to a request for clarification. How can anyone argue back, other than by quoting from that site?

Here's another example to add to my previous comment, this one from real life (it's a quote from /Inside the British police/ by Simon Holdaway, which was published in 1983).

"An officer is selling his house, partly because he feels that he doesn't want to live next door to his black neighbour: 'You may call me a racist bastard and I know I haven't got a logical argument but I'm not going to live next door to them ... I'm not racist. It's just that I think they're very nice people but I don't want to live next door to them.'"

I think most people would agree that that police officer's views *were* racist, however much he wanted to deny it. The same goes for the views you've been expressing, WAV: they're very nice people, but you don't want to live in the same country with them.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 01:45 PM

As I've said many times WR - I have never questioned/criticised any particular race/culture but immigration itself, of which there are different kinds, of course. Genuine asylum seekers should be helped to their nearest safe country; and, likewise, someone who may have a medical condition that may be greatly eased by moving to another country, etc. But, in my opinion, economic/capitalist immigration/emigration should stop, the world over, from now on.
And, again, I was hoping the last post was from a Morris dancer, enlightening us on some of the above issues...

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 04:56 PM

I have never questioned/criticised any particular race/culture but immigration itself

I know, that's exactly the point I'm making. You don't criticise any non-English cultures, you just don't want them in England. Just like that police officer - 'I think they're very nice people but I don't want to live next door to them'. That is racist.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Master Baiter
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 11:00 PM

I may have had a good time ribbing poor Wav about English football and the better version--American Football--but I think I have read most of this thread and I believe he is having a very hard time getting his point across.

I think he's saying that he sees and believes in the value of any culture continuing to carry on past traditions. He also feels that folks deserve the right to a sovereign existence and to hold cultural values within a territorial area characterized by the groups own laws and customs. Wav maintained his cultural values while in Australia but is better back in England. He thinks it could be better yet. It takes but simple logic to see that for a people to survive as a distinct cultural group they must have their own land so that their own ways can be furthered to the exclusion of alternate ways of life within that specific geographic territory. The alternate ways need to exist in their own territories as well.

Anyway, I think those are the points he's making. Much to the chagrin of his adversaries, he expresses his belief, and repeatedly so, that this is not racist.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 03:39 AM

"Your lot should live over there - our lot live here". As I said, that is racist.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 06:41 AM

I'd like to hear that, IB...do you have the pipe in your left hand/tabor-stick in right?

Okay - just uploaded our rendering of the supernatural ballad of Alison Gross onto our myspace page; as recorded live during one of our sets at the Fylde Festival last weekend. Rapunzel sings, and I accompany using shruti box drone and dumbek together with a couple of interludes using the three-hole pipe, one of which is my favourite Morris Tune, Idbury Hill, aka London Pride. English Morris Tunes in a Scottish Ballad? Whatever next!

Have a listen at: www.myspace.com/venereumarvum

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 10:20 AM

Here's a novel idea---- rename this thread Racism Issues and start a new thread to discuss an interesting subject such as what cultures and traditions would best represent GB and/or London in 2012 at the opening ceremony.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 10:49 AM

Here's a novel idea---- rename this thread Racism Issues and start a new thread to discuss an interesting subject such as what cultures and traditions would best represent GB and/or London in 2012 at the opening ceremony.

I think what this thread demonstrates is that it is impossible to separate the two issues with respect to the nature of the multi-cultural landscape of England in the present day. Englishness means something different to us all, but when it comes to the representation of cultures and traditions at such an event as the Olympics then I would imagine anything goes. As far as general English Folkery is concerned, I would like to see Mark E. Smith singing 700 Elves accompanied by 4Square with a simultaneous dance display by The Britannia Mills Coconut Dancers, though maybe the latter's black-face routines might cause a few problems.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Fidjit
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 02:50 PM

Shouldn't this thread be below the line?

Chas

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 03:08 PM

Some of us don't have lines, Fidjit - happily mixing music & BS in one long thread list (do this on your membership page). Otherwise, it remains, essentially, a music thread, dealing as it does with the ramifications of a nominal English Folk Music & Dance & the nationalistic implications thereof in a multi-cultural society.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 05:57 AM

Just enjoyed, overall, your new, above, track, IB - well-matched voices and well-played pipe...if you could put it onto something like "Audacity" software, maybe you could select and amplify just the intro..?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 06:03 AM

if you could put it onto something like "Audacity" software, maybe you could select and amplify just the intro..?

Not sure what you're getting at, WAV. It was recorded on our Zoom H4, and slightly edited using Sound-Forge software; slight compression to equalise the vocal / drum dynamics (over enthusiastic percussionist) but otherwise heard as played last Sunday morning (after a very late night!)

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 06:15 AM

Otherwise... Do you see what I mean about the drum sound? That's a very basic, cheap, Turkish dumbek, entirely tunable - in this case to A, to emphasise the dorian scale of the G 3-hole pipe (a vintage Overton) with a good dynamic head of plastic! No English Tabor, no matter how authentic, reconstructed or otherwise, and costing ten times what I paid for this drum, could ever sound this good - though plenty, I dare say, would play it better.

One of these days I might join The Taborers Society; suggest you do likewise.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 06:34 AM

Re: "Not sure what you're getting at, WAV"...just in case it's helpful, on "Audacity", occasionally, I have selected a section (e.g., a spoken intro. on "Walkabout with my Pen") and amplified just that part for clarity.
And I liked the singing and the pipe playing much more than the percussion, which made me think of unfitting belly-dancing, frankly.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 06:42 AM

Given the amount of belly-dancing women we had that morning, WAV - witches mostly, ceremonially cavorting to Alison Gross - then that's quite fitting actually!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: breezy
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 07:51 AM

I aint read the thread so apologies to all

Graham wanted to join a morris team as he'ld heard all about the physical a social benefits.

he was invited for a interview

at the interview he was told that he would be required to undergo a physical examination of he genitalia

reluctantly he agreed

his equipment was examined closely and it was decided that he was niy suitably qualified to join.

When he asked why, he was told that it was because he had been circumsised.

he asked what that had to do with his application

he was informed that

In order to join a morris team , he had to be a complete

pric


sorry, bye


its only cos me knees are gone

its amazing what you learn at BMW Ipswich

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 10:03 AM

I think that last post by Breezy should have been "circumsised"...God's speed to Morris dancers!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 10:22 AM

Whatever takes place needs to have (tele)visual impact, and I hope that there will be room for both traditional and contemporary culture. Also a focus on exemplary role models.... Also including iconic representation ( eg best of Notting Hill Carnival) without being stereotypical (Dick Van Dyke factor).
On a personal note - a good way to start of the whole thing might be one of the longest, unbroken traditions, particular to London - a reinactment of the ceremony of the keys.
Also - the English National Opera.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: breezy
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 12:18 PM

any team available for beer fest at Barnt Green next Saturday, near Bromsgrove?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,hector powe
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 02:13 PM

yo mudscatteers & morros dancing insane beardies and wav type wierdos; this is totally fng-mental and way to cool for the usual mudcat yawn.what the f is wav on???you actually know this guy sedanye?thats what my mother says,about just how f-ing loving you can be whiulst nauiling his racist ass to the line bfor his oewn good.remind you of anything (she says)???belly dancing???this bloke used to play with METGUMBNERBONE for christs sake!!!   
wav-what you need is some true tribal folk ritual dance to get all tghis tripe out of your heart and soul and tune into the trurue pattern under the plough.your a christian right?theres your problem.hyped up messioanic bollocks which has f-ed up the world native cultures including our own,BUT now thye rainbow tribes regroup-black AND white- no borders-no frontiers-JOHN BARLEYCORN IS REBORN!!!!!
hector powe-on behalf on the global cooling

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 12:54 AM

Hey Mr Powe.
Couln't agree more, (That is, if I had the foggiest idea of what you were on about!)
Ralph
(who's your supplier?)

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 06:01 AM

I went to a folk masters-degree final-recital the other day, where an assessor actually took part in the gig - an Englishman not picking the tune on an English cittern but strumming the rhythm on a Greek bouzouki! As suggested above, I enjoyed the bouzouki-playing that the GREEKS gifted us during the Athens Olympics, and hope and pray that attitues here revolve rapidly, such that we can gift the rest-of-the-world some of OUR OWN good culture during the London Olympics.
"(who's your supplier?)" (Ralphie)...don't know, but I think something may have gone wrong in it's fermentation..?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 06:05 AM

Woops, it's catching - should be "its fermentation," sorry.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: s&r
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 06:10 AM

Woops - should be Whoops

Stu

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 06:58 AM

I went to a folk masters-degree final-recital the other day, where an assessor actually took part in the gig - an Englishman not picking the tune on an English cittern but strumming the rhythm on a Greek bouzouki

Here we go again! Why put yourself through it? Some deep seated masochistic impulse by which you must stretch yourself on the rack of your own intolerance. But remember, these rules of Our Own Good English Culture are but rules of your own devising; as such they have no objective currency, nor yet any meaning beyond your the bounds of your perplexing fantasy world. But still you persist, stuck in a loop of endless rhetoric & repetition by which you would judge all human culture on what you think it ought to be, rather than appreciating it for what it is. Bet it was an Irish bouzouki too; an instrument maybe manufactured here on the Fylde by that company of distinguished eponymous luthiers; an instrument otherwise indistinguishable from your English Cittern, which, one suspects, might exist in a similar hypothetical invention as the Leicestershire Bagpipes which have only existed since the eminent Julian Goodacre came up with them twenty years ago.

Stop looking for trouble where there is none, WAV - life's too short.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 07:39 AM

...I heard the Greek bouzouki has only very recently been used for folk music anywhere on these isles - apparently an Irishman visiting Greece brought one back. Why?!, I ask, when the Irish pipes and Irish harp, e.g., can sound so good - as can the English cittern.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 08:03 AM

Do you think these instruments were just laying about when the Irish arrived in Ireland? Thawed out of a melting glacier just before people arrived? Ditto for the cittern - is that supposed to have arrived with Hengist and Horsa or do you think it may have possibly arrived a bit later say the 16th century? From France or Spain? If the latter then why are they better than the bouzouki?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 08:08 AM

Bollocks, WAV - you don't like it because it doesn't fit into your racist scheme of ethnic & cultural stereotyping & segregation. The Irish bouzouki is a recent development, but already it is very distinct instrument from its Greek antecedent, just as the Greek Bouzouki is a very different instrument from the Turkish SAZ from which it derives - see Here. Everything was recent once upon a time; like the plethora of Arabic reeds, lutes & zithers brought back by the crusaders that became an integral part of European music thereafter. The English Cittern (as invented by Stefan Sobel) is recent; likewise the Leicestershire Bagpipe (as invented by Julian Goodacre) - both are based on old notions perhaps, but very much modern non-traditional innovations that have found their way into this thing we call Folk Music, which is also a pretty modern innovation; a renewal via a revival of something which barely existed 50 years ago.   The Irish Harp is a bit of a reinvention too, likewise the Union Pipes; all have very clear points of origin & hybridisation that run entirely contrary to your impossibly misinformed and entirely specious notions of the indigenous.

You know so little, WAV - yet you judge so much. More learning I think; more listening instead of preaching; you really are in no position to make these sorts of judgements. No one is.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: s&r
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 08:16 AM

The greek bouzouki is a different animal to the Irish bouzouki. It has three strings or three courses and has similarities to the saz balalaika and the mountain dulcimer.

The Irish bouzouki has four courses and is tuned in several different ways to suit the music and the player.

It has similarities to the mandolin family. Music is rather less concerned with origin and more concerned with sound.

Stu

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Will Fly
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 08:19 AM

From the Diabolus in Musica website:

"Beware of modern instruments called "citterns". They are perfectly respectable and useful instruments, and often used to good effect by folk musicians, but they have very little in common with the renaissance cittern, other than the name. That's not a problem, except that there are whole websites devoted to the cittern, created by enthusiastic folks who firmly believe that the modern cittern and the renaissance one are closely related, and pretty much different versions of the same instrument. Which they ain't."

The cittern was common throughout Europe. The so-called "English" cittern had 4 courses while so-called "French" and "Italian" citterns generally had 5 and 6 courses respectively. But...

...if you look at the Oakwood cittern pages you'll see citterns made with 5 courses. Nothing is really as it seems when it comes to citterns - or bouzoukis, Irish, Greek or otherwise.

I've read through this thread - and this is my one and only contribution because - dear WAV - it is patently obvious that you haven't the faintest idea of what you're talking about. You appear to have gained your ideas of what constitutes living and growing traditions from "Janet and John" books. I just wonder that so much time and energy has been expended by so many intelligent people on such drivel as you spout.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 08:27 AM

...on a BBC programme a couple of years ago, where historians were trying to farm the 17th-century way, an expert period-musician visited with, among other instruments, a 5 times 2 course English cittern - plucked with a feather plectrum.
And when I listen to experts in classical music talking about the Romantic composers, they often say that when such composers wished to give a nod to nationalism they often turned to national/regional/local, folk music.
And, yes, I do keep learnig, IB - but, given your last remark, should add that I did get distinctions during my anthropolgoy major, etc....I'm not the one deluding himself or trying to delude others.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 08:33 AM

IB: Everything was recent once upon a time

I think that about sums it up (for appropriate values of 'it').

Anyway, isn't it about time we had a go at this lyrics competition WAV's set us? I'll kick off, which means I get to do the easy part:

5000 Morris Dancers all in the wood,
Foul and grim they were...

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 08:37 AM

I did get distinctions during my anthropolgoy major, etc

I'm afraid nobody cares - any more than they care about my academic qualifications or IB's. When people say you don't appear to know very much, they're basing it on statements you've made on Mudcat which indicate that you don't know very much. It's that simple.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 10:04 AM

...on a BBC programme a couple of years ago, where historians were trying to farm the 17th-century way, an expert period-musician visited with, among other instruments, a 5 times 2 course English cittern - plucked with a feather plectrum.

A modern & entirely hypothetical reconstruction of an idea of ancient instrument in other words.

And when I listen to experts in classical music talking about the Romantic composers, they often say that when such composers wished to give a nod to nationalism they often turned to national/regional/local, folk music.

They turned to a volkish fantasy of same, WAV - unlike composers such as Bela Bartok & Zoltan Kodaly, whose concerns were more to do with ethnomusicology than (God forbid) nationalism.

And yes, I do keep learnig, IB - but, given your last remark, should add that I did get distinctions during my anthropolgoy major

Sic throughout I would think, but there's none of us perfect after all, which is why I say - whatever your academic distinctions, you really are in no position to make these sorts of judgements. And further - No one is. But seriously, WAV - a recent trawl through your writings reveals you've been spouting the same guff for years with no evidence of you having learned anything. So you are deluding yourself; coming out with such half-baked tripe on things you have no understanding of if only to support your vile theories on racial purity & nationalism.

Otherwise:

5000 Morris Dancers all in the wood,
Foul and grim they were:
Down to Wavy's house they went,
His ideas to deter...

There once was an Aussie-Englishman in Novocastria chose his ground,
He thought to cure multi-culturalism, with his poetry most profound;
And they laughed at all his racist lies, but still he begged to stay
And all the Folkies that roamed the land had cause to rue the day

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 10:08 AM

Well.
I am the proud owner of a Fylde Bouzouki.
And also, a very early Sobell Cittern.
Both made (obviously) in England. North East and North West to be precise.
I'm sure that neither Roger Bucknall (Fylde) or Stefan Sobell (Sobell) would claim that they dug up the idea from the earth beneath them.
I'm sure that they are just 20th century versions of instruments whose provenance is certainly European at least.
Jolly nice they are too. Have just been playing mine!
I think now that we have pilloried WAV enough.
It's not his fault.
May this thread rest In Peace.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 11:11 AM

I wonder why the Vauxhall Velox never got a type of folk dancing named after it....or the Riley Elf or the Singer Gazelle.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 11:28 AM

I think now that we have pilloried WAV enough.
It's not his fault.

This isn't about pillory, rather ongoing & pertinent instruction; and it is his fault for persisting with his political & promotional endeavours. If he didn't, it wouldn't be a problem.

I wonder why the Vauxhall Velox never got a type of folk dancing named after it....or the Riley Elf or the Singer Gazelle.

It should, of course be Morris 1000 Dancers; complete with that typical flatulent quack you'd get on the pea-shooter exhaust in the change down; not to mention the gorgeous woodwork of the Traveller - now that's an Englishness I can identify with...

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 12:21 PM

"racial purity" (IB)...I've only ever mentioned culture NOT race in questioning the act of immigration itself - NOT any particular race; and here's another example of your deluded attempts at analysis, IB -
"Hurrah for New Labour, bunch of mushy-mouthed motherfuckers the lot of them. Who gives a fuck what they think? It's all just spin & hype anyway."..."the lot of them"?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 12:52 PM

WAV - as Pip and others have proved, in talking about culture with respect to immigration, you are, in fact, being racist; and in high-lighting your magical cut-off point of the 1950s with respect to immigration, you are drawing attention to exactly the sort of immigration you are opposed to. Further, in constantly portraying Our Good Old English Culture with respect to the anachronistic stereotypes that constitute your risible catalogues (such as those with which you introduced this thread) then you are drawing attention to one very particular race.

Once again, though - this is not personal; you actively publish & promote this bullshit, and it is your published ideology which is under scrutiny here. I wonder, can you defend your ideas in ways that don't amount to a personal questioning of my deluded attempts at analysis? Obviously you can't.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,JM
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 01:00 PM

'fraid not David, this is what you said only a few posts ago -

"an Englishman not picking the tune on an English cittern but strumming the rhythm on a Greek bouzouki! As suggested above, I enjoyed the bouzouki-playing that the GREEKS gifted us during the Athens Olympics, and hope and pray that attitues here revolve rapidly, such that we can gift the rest-of-the-world some of OUR OWN good culture during the London Olympics."

You are fairly clearly discriminating between the people you think should be playing a bouzouki (the Greeks) and those you think shouldn't (the English) on racial grounds here.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: romany man
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 01:02 PM

ok last post on the matter from me, i ask one question and am dumping thread , what is wavs views then on us romanies, are we immigrants still or are we as most people think just bad all round, as i said before, we dont have a bad name for non gypsies, but non gypsies have loads for us, so who is in the wrong ?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 02:35 PM

I came across gypsies a couple of times on the following journey, RM, and have nothing against you and your long-lived way of life here.

Poem 10 of 230: LAND'S END TO JOHN O' GROATS

At the bold age of twenty-one
    (Via Hong Kong, China, Macau)
I flew from Sydney to London -
    Land's End to John o' Groats my vow.

I took a train out of London,
    Found a highway and thumbed a ride;
I headed down toward Brighton,
    Then hitch-hiked roads the coast beside.

On the face of my shoulder bag,
A sketched map of Aus. was my tag;
For said a Scot who'd hitched Europe:
"Some emblem may well boost your hope."

And drivers throughout the island,
Over a two month riding span,
Were the kindest folks I have met -
I swear not once did I get wet!

I stopped overnight in Portsmouth,
    And one or two nights in Torquay;
Then headed along to Plymouth -
    Still travelling beside the sea.

After viewing rugged Land's End,
    I began the long journey north -
North-east, rather, before a bend,
    Somewhere in a bit from Bournemouth.

On the way, I saw relatives,
Whom after leaving I did miss -
Their homes' cosy atmosphere,
And their local pubs' good cheer.

And the hitched-lifts came from many:
An off-work Bobbie, a truckie,
As well as on-duty soldiers -
Thanks, and I've not said where each was!

I headed west through South Wales,
    And viewed Cardiff Arms from afar -
I was hitching with local males,
    And they showed me from in the car.

I stayed a while at Swansea -
    Saw the local footballers play;
Then hitched north through Llandovery -
    Beautiful farmland, I must say.

I slept mostly in B. & B's,
Where the full breakfasts sure did please;
But also stopped in Youth Hostels,
Where it's the comradeship that tells.

My favourite sites were Torquay,
Old St. Andrews (noted shortly)
The road Glasgow-to-Inverness,
The Lakes, plus London's spots, no less.

From Colwyn Bay, I headed east
    To Manchester, my place of birth;
Then on the Lakes my eyes did feast,
    Before I passed by Solway Firth.

Onto Edinburgh, Glasgow,
    St. Andrews, before Inverness;
Then waves from locals were the go -
    Warm folks round John o' Groats, I'd guess.

From walkaboutsverse. 741.com

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 03:00 PM

So since they have been in England for many years, you would consider the Roma and their songs and instruments as English tradition?

Spaw

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 04:30 PM

I've only ever mentioned culture NOT race in questioning the act of immigration itself

What cultural tests would you apply to pink-skinned, English-speaking immigrants?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 05:26 PM

Also, WAV - in the act of immigration, describe exactly what distinction you would make between culture and race.

Otherwise - love your Cob a Coaling; though I'd be wary of trying to lose too much of your antipodean tones, though even I might drop in a few Yorkshire inflected cums from time to time. Well sung that man, though perhaps just a tad premature...

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 07:49 PM

Ralph McTell (in one of the books about him) recounts that his first car was an ex-GPO mini traveller complete with woodwork and a ladder on the top. they never really caught on, did they?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 04:06 AM

Like this maybe?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 05:09 AM

To Spaw - I do know a bit about it (partly through E. trads) but think Romany Man, if he doesn't mind, would be better at detailing how their lifeways have survived in cooperation with what might be called mainstream English culture over the centuries.
PR! - "What cultural tests would you apply to pink-skinned, English-speaking immigrants?"...it's New Labour that have, after a decade of strongly promoting immigration/diversity, recently brought in cultural/English tests for immigrants. But I don't think they have mentioned skin colour and neither have I - in fact, your obsession with it seems somewhat unique. As I say, I'd increase the regulation of immigration/emigration the world over - including making FUTURE economic/capitalist immigration/emigration illegal; and genuine asylum seekers would be helped to their nearest (especially in terms of CULTURE) safe country, etc.
IB - we were taught in anthropology to refer to peoples in terms of culture not race/skin colour - more in line, in this case, with the modern American way ("African Americans", etc.), rather than the modern English way of "whites" and "blacks". And I thought you would have accepted by now that it's culture not race that I've always referred to. (It's some of the pro-immigrationists here that keep mentioning race.)
Also, 2 months is a tad early, but I don't get that many visits so, if I posted "Cob a Coaling" here say 2 weeks before Bonfire night, hardly anyone would here it. (Similarly, I intend to put my carols up at the start of Advent.)

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 05:26 AM

I've just received a PM calling for what amounts to sending Walkaboutsverse to Coventry, mistakenly assuming I'd be all for such an idea. Nothing could be further from the truth; this is an open forum for a frank and free exchange of ideas no matter how awry such ideas may - or may not - be perceived to run from whatever sort of orthodoxy people assume to be the correct way of thinking.

No doubt others have received such a PM and I sincerely hope they too oppose such an ostracisation, which amounts to the worst form of discrimination there is - i.e. the persecution of an individual because they happen to hold a different opinion.

In this matter I am as alarmed as I am bitterly disappointed.

Meanwhile, back to the merry fray!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 05:36 AM

...never been to Coventry...any nice parks there worth a walkabout?...any nice folk clubs for a singaround..?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 06:00 AM

...or, more to the thread, any Morris sides there worth watching..?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 06:08 AM

I did not ask you HOW, I asked if you would consider the Roma and their songs and instruments as English tradition ?
["So since they have been in England for many years, you would consider the Roma and their songs and instruments as English tradition?"]

Just a yes or no will do.

Spaw

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 06:10 AM

IB - we were taught in anthropology to refer to peoples in terms of culture not race/skin colour - more in line, in this case, with the modern American way ("African Americans", etc.), rather than the modern English way of "whites" and "blacks".And I thought you would have accepted by now that it's culture not race that I've always referred to. (It's some of the pro-immigrationists here that keep mentioning race.)

You can't separate issues of culture from issues of race & ethnicity, especially in the context of a multi-cultural UK. We all know what is meant by terms such as African-American with regard to ethnicity, though culturally it might not be so straightforward. If this was the case, then you would accept that the cultural make-up of these North Atlantic Islands has been defined by 10,000 years (and more) of immigration. This process continues, making us what we are; what we have always been, but you continue to question it. Why?

Also - you have said on numerous occasions that your ideal England was that which existed before the immigrations of the 1950s, giving very clear indication of the sort of immigration you're referring to. It is these notions, and admissions, coupled with your somewhat bizarre notions of what constitutes Our Own Good English Culture (i.e. a stereotypical folk culture which is almost 100% revived and in no way shape or form reflects the actual cultural concerns of the English people, rather the recreational indulgence of a tiny minority of same) and your professed militancy in this respect that would certainly suggest that your ideas run a good deal deeper than the cultural.
   
Also, 2 months is a tad early, but I don't get that many visits so, if I posted "Cob a Coaling" here say 2 weeks before Bonfire night, hardly anyone would here it. (Similarly, I intend to put my carols up at the start of Advent.)

You get a lot more visits than we do, WAV - having some 6027 friends & some 72 plays already today. I know it is the English Way to start celebrating too early (the first Christmas lights should be going up as I write)but in the world of folklore, revived or otherwise, such festivities are very specific & that specificness should, I feel, be respected, otherwise you lose the ceremonial & ritual focus that is carried in the entire sense of the song - especially regarding Myspace, which can be changed at a moment's notice and is ideal for such seasonal merrymaking. We're still in BST; still some eleven days off the equinox, so in terms of a song essentially tied to a cross-quarter fire festival supposedly derived from the moveable / lunar Samhain, then maybe you should wait until October is well under way. I know you take great pride in such things, as well you should; they mean a lot to me too, part of my entire appreciation of Folk Music is the seasonal context in which such ceremonial songs occur, thus do I say a tad pemature. I agree with putting the carols up at Advent though; just as long as you don't take them down again until Twelfth Night.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 06:44 AM

IB - your last sentence is, indeed, what I did last year. And, closer to Bonfire night, I'll move "Cob a Coaling" to the top, from 4th place, where it is now. Also, did you notice last year the fireworks were not quite as early as previous years?...so perhaps more folks are starting to agree with the respect for seasons you mention.
I've stopped doing it now, but I used to post a couple of examples of my poems on every single Friends profile, which led to quite a lot of Visits, etc. - for an amateur musician and poet. At the moment, I'm spending less time on there (doing the same with just New Friends), and more time working out how to play the tunes to my own Chants from Walkabouts - I play a line, sing a line, play a line, and eventually get there, I think, at something of a snail's pace compared with some of the folkies I've known (i.e., minutes or even seconds to play a tune they've only just heard played and/or sung.)
Spaw - from what I know, their ways have fitted in closely with English traditions over the centuries - peripatetically selling carved pegs, trad. songs, or tinkered pots and pans to farmers/cottage-dwellers, etc. But, as I say, RM, could answer this better than I.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: romany man
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 10:32 AM

Positively my last entry, Yes WAV we do try to fit in and have done so for hundreds of years.
However for the same amount of time we have been slagged off, kicked off and generally **********about. We dont just sell bloody pegs and, mend ***********g pots forget the romantic crap of being free to come and go as we please in highly decorated wagons pulled by gorgeous black and white cobs, the fact is most in the early days lived in bender tents, made a living how they could mainly even up to the last war, following the harvest, or doing odd jobs or things other people would not do.
The wagos came in as we started to get a bit behind us, but that was recent really in history, by victorian times we had come full circle, some gaining wealth enough to buy beter wagons the horses generally were a cross between a heavy mare and a lighter draft cob typ horse, the locals even then only wanted us around when something needed doing, after the war trucks and vans became available so we got mobile, going further ,faster, earning as we went, more money better things, so the wagon started to go and the trailer was born, now they could be fancied up and were, vickers , roma, cobdale , all saw a niche market and started to produce purpose built vans some costing more than a house at the time. Oh but then the roaming laws came in, oh joy, we fought a war to stop this kind of thing, but hey ho they are only gypsies, easy way to stop em, ban the towing of that length of trailer, the people who made them tried to shorten them to meet the new rules but nothing fitted, now of course the likes of hobby ete make an excellent living wagon and to your spec if you ask them. However where to stop. All the old aichen tans are gone, if you stop the gavvers and bailiffs are on you as quick as a wink, we try and try to fit in, but we as a race are being torn apart , yes we get up to all sorts of things there are good and bad all round, a very few people know what ive personally been through, and the support ive had from my non romany folky mates has been great, my romany friend equally, but and there is always a but,n i have even since coming back from sunny knockholt had anti romany crap come my way. so Wav it is hard and we all try our best but when councils can take away charter land and build factories that remain empty for years, yet we cant live on it, today, tuesday, i heard of another friends failure to get permission for a mobile home on the 20 acres he has owned for thirty years, yet if he sold it to the council for twenty thousand pounds they can build 100 detached properties on it . (rabbit hutches) tell me that is not discrimination, he has been fighting for ten years now. so when things get better all the gypsies will be gone . Make someone happy wont it. I will no longer be adding to this thred as its going nowhere and to be honest i dont feel comfortable withit.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Master Baiter
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 10:57 AM

I have enjoyed poking some fun at WalksaboutVerse from time to time but I have also quite clearly stated what he appears to be saying. People like Catspaw don't seem to get it but once again, here we go.

I think he's saying that he sees and believes in the value of any culture continuing to carry on past traditions. He also feels that folks deserve the right to a sovereign existence and to hold cultural values within a territorial area characterized by the groups own laws and customs. Wav maintained his cultural values while in Australia but is better back in England. He thinks it could be better yet. It takes but simple logic to see that for a people to survive as a distinct cultural group they must have their own land so that their own ways can be furthered to the exclusion of alternate ways of life within that specific geographic territory. The alternate ways need to exist in their own territories as well.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Golightly
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 11:22 AM

And there was me thinking the London bit of the Beijing closing ceremony was a witty, ironic homage to Spinal Tap's Stonehenge, what with the musicians towering above the cut-out London skyline.

Whatever London chooses for the 2012 opening ceremony, you can be sure it will not reflect the way we see ourselves. If it were me, I'd just show Live Aid again. London was a world leader that day and it did it through real music, not contrived marketing images.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 01:06 PM

Yes, Golightly, Live Aid was "real music" to the extent that they played live, rather than miming; but they were singing their verses in the framework of American, NOT English, genres such as pop and rock. Loving the DIFFERENCES between nations, in line with what MB just said, I do hope for a good serving of folk music, song, and dance in 2012. Also, whilst checking the last few posts, I watched a Sky News anchor-person interview a couple of pop acts in contention for the Mercury Award - without hearing from Rachel Unthank waiting politely in the background...still, at least her quite-folkie band are there.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 01:15 PM

WAV: As I say, I'd increase the regulation of immigration/emigration the world over

Yes, I know that's what you'd do if you ruled the world - you've mentioned it already, once or twice. My question was about what changes you'd like to see to immigration into England. You want more English culture and less of all the other cultures: how would you actually achieve that? What 'cultural' tests would you set would-be immigrants, so as to satisfy yourself that Bob from Trinidad and Gurvinder from Uganda and Wally from New Zealand were genuinely English (like you)?

MB: It takes but simple logic to see that for a people to survive as a distinct cultural group they must have their own land so that their own ways can be furthered to the exclusion of alternate ways of life within that specific geographic territory. The alternate ways need to exist in their own territories as well.

Yes, I do think that's what WAV is saying. And I think the 'simple logic' of this "we live here, you lot live over there" mentality is racist at best - a recipe for ethnic cleansing at worst.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Don Firth (my computer's in the shop)
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 01:47 PM

Gad, sir, WAV is right! If we are to preserve true English culture, we must bring Colonel Blimp out of retirement!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 02:55 PM

I just had a quick look, Don-on-the-local-library-shop-floor?, and see that character is pro-British and probably imperialism, etc. - which is certainly NOT the WAV way. And I did answer you, WR, as the same applies to England. Also, the Unthanks did, thankfully, get a guernsey on both our local news broadcasts here in NE England, regarding the Mercury Awards tonight.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 03:07 PM

of American, NOT English, genres such as pop and rock.

WAV - how many times? These genres aren't American in any sort of sense other than one that might be vaguely geographical, given the African, British & European cultural diasporas by which they came about & continue to come about. To some extent one might say Jazz is American, albeit African-American, but ignore the universality of such a music, or yet the universality of its relevance, at your peril. Like folk, these genres are but part of an ongoing process of musical & cultural coalescence of such vast complexity that it might not make much sense to you given your somewhat narrow remit on such things, but it can be just as traditional & English if not more so as any of the folk music you're always banging on about.

By your definition Joy Division played American music, which just isn't the case. I urge a rethink on this, WAV - seriously.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 04:49 PM

You didn't answer my direct question, WAV, but then you never do.

Please, if you don't want to be ostracised by at least one Mudcatter, answer these two questions.

1. Who do you want to bar from coming to England?

2. How do you recognise those people?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 05:43 PM

A musicologist may drop by, IB, and confirm that pop evolved from American religious music; and rock from American blues and country, etc. But, yes, they are certainly globalised forms now - as are many American ways. That's why I've often put globalisation/Americanisation. Elbow just won the Mercury Prize, by the way - the lead man talking with an English accent but singing with an American one.
PR - 1: Economic/capitalist immigrants (from now on, i.e.) but NOT genuine asylum seekers to which England is their nearest safe country, etc. 2: self explanatory from answer #1.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 05:51 PM

You'd bar yourself, then?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 06:15 PM

A musicologist may drop by, IB, and confirm that pop evolved from American religious music; and rock from American blues and country, etc.

I think first of all your musicologist would confirm that American religious music & American blues and country evolved from the music of the African, British & European migrants (willing or otherwise) who brought it with them as part of their respective cultural identities, which is why I say these things are part of an ongoing process of musical & cultural coalescence of vast complexity and not an aspect of the globalisation you are rightly wary of.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,sinky
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 07:27 PM

Can i just add that morris dancing is the saddest geekiest piece of shit on earth

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 08:10 PM

No, that'd be Wavy Dude...............

Spaw

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 04:56 AM

IB - The Beatles, e.g., knew they were copying an aspect of American culture (which they were obviously good at), and even tried speaking with American accents. The Americans tried to get their OWN back by forming The Monkeys to beat The Beatles. Meantime, wiser English folk were turning and tuning up at folk clubs - performing their OWN culture to the best of their ability; or, Sinky, turning up at Morris sides to dance their OWN. The world needs a cultural revolution - folks everywhere appreciating the cultures of other nations but practiSing/performing their own.
Thus, from the 12 in the abovementioned Mercury Awards, the WAV Award of 2008 goes to "Rachel Unthank and the Winterset", for sticking much more closely to their own culture, with good quality to-boot.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 07:47 AM

The world needs a cultural revolution - folks everywhere appreciating the cultures of other nations but practiSing/performing their own.

WAV - What you think of as Our Own Good English Culture is, in truth, the consequence of the hobbyist & recreational concerns of a small minority of the baby-boomer middle-classes who did nothing to engender, encourage or yet inspire a second wave until their own offspring had come of age, thus assuring that Our Own Good English Culture remained the reserve of an even tinier elite. The Folk Revival wasn't a revival as such, rather a whole sale invention on the part of certain individuals and only very loosely based on what only academics ever called Traditional Folk Music. Taxonomy is only ever the study of the thing, and NOT the thing itself, and once removed from its socio-cultural context, it becomes something else entirely. Like your singing of Cob a Coaling; in actual anthropological terms this is a very different matter from your mistaken assumption that in so doing you are, in fact, practising, much less preserving, your Own Good Culture. Folk Music is a myth, a blip on the screen, a mirage, a spectre, albeit a very potent one, at least for that tiny minority who are of that particular persuasion - such as myself. However, in the thirty+ years that I have been a folky I have, like most other folkies, been other things too. That's the way it is with Folk Music - it's understood to be an optional extra; we recognise it, and we celebrate it, for what it is, rather what it clearly is not - i.e. Our Own Good Culture. For that we must recognise that Culture is as People Do, and that the practise & experience of culture will be different for each of the 50 million souls currently residing in our once green and pleasant land. This is Folk Culture by Anthropological &, indeed, Ethnomethodological Definition, WAV; which is to say by context & actuality, not the cranky volkish yearnings of misanthropic racists* such as yourself. Remember - without people, there can be no culture.

The Americans tried to get their OWN back by forming The Monkeys to beat The Beatles

A somewhat simplistic overview of the situation, but whatever the truth of the matter, The Monkeys were 25% English and had an appreciation of the ancientness of their craft. If you doubt that, then watch This.

* By persisting in this misplaced volkish vision of cultural purity you are tying your racist colours to the mast. The day your catalogues of English Dances & Instruments (for example) include all the cultural manifestations of our multi-cultural England is the day that you might stop being a racist; the day you retract such contentious rhetoric as English culture is taking a hammering and, when people lose their own culture,society suffers is the day you might stop being a racist. Until such a day, you remain, in truth, a racist by admission & definition.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 08:38 AM

...asked about the exotic instruments you accompany E. trads with, IB, you know which country each comes from, and the way it is traditionally played there - but you can't stand the idea of England having suchlike, due mainly to your extreme pro-immigrationism. Whether or not you agree with the post-war mass-immigration, it's silly to deny that England was 50 years ago a much more English place, with less than 1/2 a percent of the population being immigrants. And when I hear and read that for centuries English did sing these E. trads unaccompanied, or that the English cittern was once very common in taverns and barber shops, I believe it to be, at least mostly, true; rather than believe someone who also comes up with conclusions like this...

"Hurrah for New Labour, bunch of mushy-mouthed motherfuckers the lot of them. Who gives a fuck what they think? It's all just spin & hype anyway."..."the lot of them"? (IB).

Also, racism is where someone says they are all like this or that; or I don't mind immigrants from that part of the world, but I hate ones from there, e.g. - which is NOT my argument; I've only questioned the act of immigration itself. Please don't confuse these, and stop making false defamatory remarks.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 08:45 AM

"or that the English cittern was once very common in taverns and barber shops"

How common was it in the 1950's? Have you any figures because it was totally extinct in barbershops in the 1960's and I've yet to see one in any tavern, inn or ale-house.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 08:48 AM

racism is where someone says they are all like this or that

You can say this as often as you like, it doesn't make it true. Racism is believing that people from different cultural/ethnic groups are fundamentally different & should be treated differently. Racism is saying "they're perfectly nice people, I just wouldn't want one of them living next door". Racism is saying "we belong here, they belong over there". These are definitions which match your beliefs to a T.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 10:00 AM

England was 50 years ago a much more English place, with less than 1/2 a percent of the population being immigrants

150 years ago there was mass immigration of Irish people to England. The influx caused great anxiety about cultural (and literal) pollution - they were thought to be degenerate, disorderly, diseased and generally a Very Bad Thing. 150 years on, most of their descendants don't even have an Irish accent.

100 years ago there was mass immigration of East European Jews. Again, the newcomers were thought to be a Very Bad Thing. Again, they responded by getting jobs, getting married and generally settling in. Again, 100 years later their descendants are as English as you or I.

Why should you be worried that this process isn't going to happen again?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 10:13 AM

WAV : ...asked about the exotic instruments you accompany E. trads with, IB, you know which country each comes from, and the way it is traditionally played there - but you can't stand the idea of England having suchlike,

IB : WAV, if we had suchlike in this country no one would be happier than I, but the fact is, we don't; only in the context of the folk & early music revival which is an entirely bourgeois invention, but none the less valid because of that, or indeed appealing. But you must understand that this music operates on a very different level of cultural / national significance here as it does in, say, Turkey. See Here for an example. Note the Kemence, aka Black Sea Fiddle, which I use to accompany various E. trads with.

WAV : due mainly to your extreme pro-immigrationism.

IB : Again, I have not stated my views on immigration one way or the other; rather I have called into question your motives behind your continuing anti-immigration stance.

WAV : Whether or not you agree with the post-war mass-immigration, it's silly to deny that England was 50 years ago a much more English place, with less than 1/2 a percent of the population being immigrants.

IB : At last! So good to read what amounts to a confession of the racist sentiments that underlie your feelings on both immigration and Our Own Good English Culture. But I wasn't even born 50 years ago, I was born in 1961 and I grew up in a multi-cultural & multi-ethnic Northumbria, with Chinese, Yeminites, Indian Hindus and Indian Moslems etc. etc. and being of Irish-Scottish-Jewish extraction myself hardly endears me to a notion of Englishness founded on such divisively racist sentiments as you evidently believe in.

Again, English Culture is but the consequence of 10,000 years of immigration, invasion, assimilation & diversification. This is the way we are, the way we have always been. There is no, nor has there ever been, one objective English Culture; to say so is to perpetuate a convenient racist myth. Anthropologically speaking, your beloved E. Trads are, with but few exceptions, no longer sung as an integral aspect the culture of the rural peasantry to which they once rightfully belonged. These days their songs are sung by way of a recreational pastime by middle-class urban professionals, a situation which is in no way, shape, or form traditional, nor yet does it constitute Our Own Good Culture. As I say, there are exceptions, but these only go so far as to prove the rule.   

WAV : And when I hear and read that for centuries English did sing these E. trads unaccompanied, or that the English cittern was once very common in taverns and barber shops, I believe it to be, at least mostly, true

IB : True up to a point, WAV - but certainly not in the 1950s! What proportion of the English People ever sang these E. trads unaccompanied anyway? Or even sang them exclusively? What we have now is a revival, a complete re-invention of the entire notion of English Traditional Music & Song a million miles away from the condition in which it originally existed. Any revival singer will tell you this, and they will also point you to the source singers, that grubby bunch of individuals whom you could actually call traditional singers. Now, whatever conclusions might be drawn from this with regard to a definition, or indeed a conception, of a Folk Music (albeit after the fact), the source singers had no more idea of such notions than does the Jackdaw of his place in the ornithological taxonomy.

WAV : rather than believe someone who also comes up with conclusions like this... "Hurrah for New Labour, bunch of mushy-mouthed motherfuckers the lot of them. Who gives a fuck what they think? It's all just spin & hype anyway."..."the lot of them"? (IB).

IB : If you're going to quote me, WAV, at least get the quote right. It is Hurrah for New Labour, bunch of mushy-mouthed motherfuckers the lot of them. Who gives a fuck what they think? It's all just spin & hype anyway. And that is my expressed personal opinion (nothing more, nothing less) on the condition of politicians in general & New Labour in particular, for reasons I've already given above. It is not a conclusion, nor is it a published manifesto; nor do I promote it as being the best way forward for humanity. Shame you seem to have taken such a particular fondness to it; another smokescreen to hide behind. As I said above - can you defend your ideas in ways that don't amount to a personal questioning of my deluded attempts at analysis? Obviously you can't.

WAV : Also, racism is where someone says they are all like this or that; or I don't mind immigrants from that part of the world, but I hate ones from there, e.g. - which is NOT my argument; I've only questioned the act of immigration itself. Please don't confuse these, and stop making false defamatory remarks.

IB : Racism is exactly the sort discriminatory crap that you publish and believe in; cower behind semantics all you will, but the fact remains, as you have shown with your it's silly to deny that England was 50 years ago a much more English place comment above, you are given to sentiments which are not only racist but also 100% bullshit. England is English by default, WAV - every aspect of life as practised & experience by any one of 50 million citizens of England amounts English Culture in terms of pure anthropology, no matter what part of the world these people are from. This is no different to how it's been at any point in the last 10,000 years; no different to how it was 50 years ago; only in the fact that the individuals are different, just doing exactly what they want to do which is their right and privilege to do so. Would you deny them that right? From what I have read, I think perhaps you would.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,EricTheOrange
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 12:17 PM

WAV wrote 'England was 50 years ago a much more English place'

50 years ago it was acceptable to put up signs reading "No blacks, no dogs, no Irish", homosexuals were sent to prison, everybody "knew their place" & most people listened to American or pseudo-American music. Ah the golden years?????????

WAV your images of England are so far from what I've ever experienced growing up here I wonder if you've ever been to the country?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 12:21 PM

With regard to everything here, check this outK-Space.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 12:53 PM

I've already answered the above comments/criticisms - except to let Eric know that I am an English repat., actually born in Manchester the day Alf Ramsey's English team won the World Cup of football. I've now lived here a total of 15 years and have, believe it or not, put a lot into my repatriation, etc. And, in anticipation, no I don't like an Italian telling us how to play our favourite sport.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 12:54 PM

...nor a Swede or any other nationality I should quickly add.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 01:10 PM

wav,have you thought of taking a holiday?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 01:27 PM

As well as Australia, CB, I wouldn't mind another VISIT to Ireland, poem 12; or or Italy, poem 16.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 02:24 PM

I've already answered the above comments/criticisms

Where's your answer to this, then?

Racism is believing that people from different cultural/ethnic groups are fundamentally different & should be treated differently. Racism is saying "they're perfectly nice people, I just wouldn't want one of them living next door". Racism is saying "we belong here, they belong over there". These are definitions which match your beliefs to a T.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 03:11 PM

Some people have tried to confuse questioning immigration with racism and, in some cases, they have succeeded. They are NOT the same thing. E.g., one who loves travelling and being among "different cultural/ethnic groups" (Pip) for a while, may NOT be in favour of mass economic/capitalist immigration for various non-racist reasons.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Don Firth (computer still in the shop)
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 03:38 PM

Gad, sir! He is Colonel Blimp!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 05:57 PM

may NOT be in favour of mass economic/capitalist immigration for various non-racist reasons

There are non-racist reasons for being concerned about immigration. There are also racist reasons, and those are almost exclusively the ones that you've cited. Racism is saying "we belong here, they belong over there".

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,EricTheOrange
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 06:34 PM

WAV -- now it all makes sense -- you're essentially an immigrant yourself. I've met lots of 'English' like yourself -- never quite one thing or another. It explains alot about your 'disney' image of 'Englishness'.


p.s. as an Englishman I'm happy for an Italian to get our team organized to beat Croatia in Zagreb 4-1, just as I was happy for a Swede to choose the team that beat Germany 5-1 at their place. The English are nothing if not pragmatic and through history we've been happy to have an anglo-american, a welshman, a dutchman, or a frenchman lead us -- as long as they're a winner. Even our patron saint is an imigrant.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 04:35 AM

WAV : Some people have tried to confuse questioning immigration with racism and, in some cases, they have succeeded. They are NOT the same thing. E.g., one who loves travelling and being among "different cultural/ethnic groups" (Pip) for a while, may NOT be in favour of mass economic/capitalist immigration for various non-racist reasons.

And those non-racist reasons?

WAV (for full post, see above 02 Sep 08 - 08:42 AM): ...trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law will always be problematic... ; ethnic conflict; it's much more difficult for tourists to terrorise; when people lose their own culture, society suffers; 50 million is too many people for the area of land called England; etc.

Choice stuff, WAV.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 06:18 AM

50 million is too many people for the area of land called England

To be fair to WAV, this is a non-racist reason for opposing immigration. But anyone who was really worried about numbers would oppose immigration by anyone, including people who were originally born in England. Not only that, they would encourage permanent emigration by anyone, including people born in England; and, perhaps most importantly, they would discourage everyone from having more than one child, including people born in England. I don't think this is WAV's position.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 06:19 AM

"WAV -- now it all makes sense -- you're essentially an immigrant yourself. I've met lots of 'English' like yourself -- never quite one thing or another. It explains alot about your 'disney' image of 'Englishness'."

Hey - HEY! Watch it there, Mr Orange! As someone who emigrated to England 18 years ago (meaning I've spent nearly half my life here), I am also one of the staunchest critics of Wavey Davey's "world view".

I love England's traditions, but would be the first to gainsay the chocolate box version of England that's occasionally perpetuated by posters to this messageboard. England's diversity will yet be its salvation, IMHO.

Rather than being "neither one thing nor the other", I like to think that we immigrants embody the best of both (or all) of our cultures! :)

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Joe P at work somewhere else
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 06:22 AM

I think WAV congratulated China on it's one child policy.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 06:28 AM

Indeed, he went even further, Joe: he congratulated them on having "stuck to their green, humane, birth-control policies..." (c) Wavey Davey

He still hasn't really managed to successfully explain how he was defining "green" or, more importantly, "humane"...

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 06:35 AM

To get to the nub of WAVs various posts.
I'd like him to name one pure bred English person.
For myself, I've got bits of Celts, Danes, French, Jews, Germans, and Gawd knows what else in my ancestral past.
And proud of every man jack of them!

If I ever met someone who could prove.....and I mean PROVE! that he/she where truly from undiluted English stock, (whatever that is!) I would shake their hand, but, (and heres the rub)
I wouldn't recognise the person in front of me. Because that person cannot possibly exist.
Have to go now.
Have got to brush up on the Chaucerian version of the English language.
(Which obviously, no doubt, you are well acquainted.
Why not send your next text in "Middle English" to prove your ancestry?)

Oh, and by the way the Cittern isn't English. So there.

Oh (again). WAV...You were born here, but lived most of your life elsewhere? Presumably at your parents choosing. Yes?
Therefore they (and you) were economic migrants too?

Pots/Kettles Discuss!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,True British Radish
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 06:58 AM

I'd like him to name one pure bred English person.

Pure-bred Angles*? Bunch of $**!!* Danes and Germans, come over here, take over our country... Those Saxons** are no better, and don't get me started on the Jutes***.

The Scots and the Welsh****, they're your true Brits. Mind you, even the Celts were originally immigrants - they came over the land bridge and got stuck here. I don't know what they were speaking here before - Basque, probably.

*    From Angeln (in between Flensburg and Schleswig).
**   From Saxony.
*** From Jutland.
**** Which is Anglo-Saxon for 'foreign'. Cheeky blighters.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 07:02 AM

But there were always Morris Dancers!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 07:04 AM

And....
To get back to the original subject.
We all know, that the Olympics will be based around our Military domination of various parts of the world in the "Glorious Empire" days.
You all remember, when we taught the rest of the world how to play Cricket, and drink Tea? Respected their indigenous cultures, and put them in a museum for the "English" to marvel at..(Anyone been to the Horniman museum?)
Well, thats what we are going to get in 2012.
With a passing tokenistic mention of all the other races that live on this tiny island.

I'm not dissing our armed forces. But I would happily diss the bastards in governments (Through the ages) that have waged war, and tried to subjugate other nations.

So, The Olympics of 2012, will be just as jingoistic and manipulated, as all other Olympics have been before.

And, all that we might say here, will come to naught.


As I said many posts ago...
I'm going on my holidays that week, to avoid the embarrasment that such a spectacle would be.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 07:16 AM

50 million is too many people for the area of land called England

In & of itself perhaps this is a non-racist reason, but in the context of his other non-racist reasons it assumes a sickening racist aura, very much of the there's enough here as it is - send the buggers back variety, especially given that it's complete bollocks, even with the present land/wealth distribution.

I'd like him to name one pure bred English person.

Every person alive in England today is pure bred English; we are the consequence of human process, diverse in culture, region, religion, ethnicity, origin & destination; we are English in our utter individual uniqueness & diversity; each & every one of us. This is the right & purpose of our Englishness; the only Englishness that matters; by choice, by love, by dint of simply being here in the first place.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,baz parkes
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 07:33 AM

Ralphie

"Why not post in Middle English...."

Because if you did you'd be using a lot of French derivitives:-)

Baz...who's obviously missing the classroom rather more than he thought he might:-))

Interesting interval discussion next time we work together...unless there's some morris dancers to watch of course...(not sure how many)

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 08:38 AM

Hi Baz

Bloody French! Source of all our problems, if you ask me!
More than happy to have a "Heated Debate" next time we meet.
Anythings better than watching Morris Dancing!

Yo!! Ralphie

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 08:58 AM

Oh Ms Archer

That an infiltrater like you, from a foreign land, should take over one of the most hallowed of English Festivals, spanning 50 odd (?) years.....(Sidmouth) is a vile calumny (Spellcheck please) to our Holy Sceptered Isle.
Get back to that unholy country that is called the US of A....
Don't forget your lipstick!!
Very tongue in cheek!

Ralphie xxx

No chance for Housewives Choice next year then?!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 09:12 AM

"WAV -- now it all makes sense -- you're essentially an immigrant yourself. I've met lots of 'English' like yourself -- never quite one thing or another. It explains alot about your 'disney' image of 'Englishness'.
p.s. as an Englishman I'm happy for an Italian to get our team organized to beat Croatia in Zagreb 4-1, just as I was happy for a Swede to choose the team that beat Germany 5-1 at their place. The English are nothing if not pragmatic and through history we've been happy to have an anglo-american, a welshman, a dutchman, or a frenchman lead us -- as long as they're a winner." (Eric)...If someone is born in a country and they return to live there, then that person is a repat. - NOT an immigrant.
And if nationals are going to compete for other nations, why bother holding internationals?; and, if the manager is not important, why have a foreign manager?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 09:22 AM

But culturally, you are not English. A friend of mine was born in Oman. He has returned there once for a short holiday. He considers himself British (half Welsh half English). Being born in Oman is a coincidence, not a factor in his cultural being.

What are your qualifying factors for someone to be English?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 10:38 AM

Joe - I've read widely from the canon of English verse; I keep fit with lawn tennis; my staple meal is pottages; my repertoire of Chants, hymns, and songs is English; I participate in the NE England folk and poetry scenes; I've worked on my pronunciation and done a couple of technical courses here; I grow English ivy; I learnt to walk and talk here, etc....apart from the remnants of my Australian accent, I'm very (old-fashioned) English, thanks.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: mandotim
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 10:41 AM

Quote from WAV; 'IB - The Beatles, e.g., knew they were copying an aspect of American culture (which they were obviously good at), and even tried speaking with American accents.' So accent is important when delineating someones practice of their culture is it? Specifically, if a 'foreign' accent is used, then it isn't Our Own Good English Culture (to use your own argument) Ok then...
I put myself through purgatory and listened to some of your 'chants' again, just to check. Your normal accent WAV; it's not English, is it? It's Australian. How did you acquire such an obviously non-English speaking voice? Surely you must have grown up in and acquired a non-English culture? Speaking as you do, I don't think you can claim English culture as your own, can you? Why don't you concentrate on your Own Good Australian Culture, as your accent is obviously better suited to this?

I've used your arguments here, WAV; mine would be different, and much closer to Guest Joe, above. Culture and nationality are not wholly interdependent, as any rational person knows; if this was the case, what would people with dual nationality be, culturally? No-one is born as a cultural being (when did you last see a new-born baby who could Morris dance or play the Cittern?), therefore place of birth has no bearing on what culture you are eventually socialised into, other than as an accident of geography. An example would be Colin Cowdrey, the famous English cricketer (later Baron Cowdrey of Tonbridge); a more 'English' man you would never meet; but he wasn't born in England, but in Ootacamund,India. He was educated in England, his parents were English and he lived all but a small period of his life in England. Would you argue that his own culture was Indian?

G'day, sport.
Tim

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 10:59 AM

I've read widely from the canon of English verse;

That's pretty unusual among English people.

I keep fit with lawn tennis;

That's very unusual.

my staple meal is pottages;

I don't even know what pottages are. (Some sort of stew? Are lentils involved?) Anyway, it doesn't sound at all English.

If you were really trying to sound English you would have said you read Heat, play squash and live on chicken tikka masala with half and half (half rice, half chips, half stottie). But I'm not really bothered about how you live - as far as I'm concerned you are English, because you've chosen to live here.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,JM
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 11:16 AM

I've searched the internet in vein for any clips of The Kapoor family from 'Goodness Gracious Me', but they are described on Wikipedia as-

"The Coopers (Kapoors) and Robinsons (Rabindaraths) - Two snobbish nouveau riche couples who claim to be entirely English with no Indian blood whatsoever, but often give themselves away by using each other's real names, mispronouncing words or silly mistakes such as serving guests some lemonade with sliced courgettes in it."

The main thrust of the sketch was always the Kapoors insisting that they were more English than the Rabindaraths because they played cricket and took communion in church every Sunday, or because they were bad at complaining and had 'stiff upper lips' (literally in one sketch.

Sound familiar?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: mandotim
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 11:30 AM

G'day again, cobber; cripes WAV, you say youse have worked on yer pommie pronunciation eh? Pretending to be a pom, are yer? Isn't that a bit like the Beatles pretending to be American? Or me pretending to be Australian?
Tim

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 11:33 AM

Just fancy that!

WAV : I've read widely from the canon of English verse; I keep fit with lawn tennis; my staple meal is pottages; my repertoire of Chants, hymns, and songs is English; I participate in the NE England folk and poetry scenes; I've worked on my pronunciation and done a couple of technical courses here; I grow English ivy; I learnt to walk and talk here, etc....apart from the remnants of my Australian accent, I'm very (old-fashioned) English, thanks.

WAV : Singing a folk-song in a phoney foreign accent, or in classical- or pop-style, is surely "not cricket." Exceptions, however, are genre-overlapping traditional carols - which may be sung with either an earthy folkie timbre or a classical "Sunday-best" timbre, as in A Christmas Carol, by C. Dickens. And why bother affecting our voice for the genre - as well as, occasionally, for different lyrics within the genre - instead of just putting our natural speaking-timbre into song? In a word - culture.

A slight contradiction there, me thinks BUT whatever the case, we are what we are, rather than how we might attempt to define ourselves according to whatever nonsensical notions we might have about cultural identity. How would an anthropologist see you, WAV - as a naturalised Australian or a repatriated Englishman? You've been here for all of - what? Eleven years? Your Australian accent is in no way a remnant, it gets stronger every time I see you, which is fair enough. Be proud of it, WAV - be proud of what you are and be proud of your Authentic Human Uniqueness; don't lose that because you're hung up on some bogus take on Englishness.

Interestingly, the missus scolded me the other night for a very bad Australian accent when I was practising Peter Bellamy's setting of Henry Lawson's Glass On the Bar; a song, I feel you could sing to perfection. There's so much English-Australian culture; E. trads and all - and you there, perfectly placed to represent it.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 11:44 AM

I hate to tell you this, WAV, but having listened to you on Myspace, your accent is just as much a mess as mine. Appropriately, given that I've lived almost half my life in one place and half in another, my accent is a complete mishmash. Yours is, too. But it's still a lot more Australian than Geordie.

The difference is that mine has got this way organically, because I don't care how I sound. And even if I spoke with a typical accent for the place where I now live, it would not make me any more English than I am. I've got a bit of English ancestry somewhere - again, that doesn't make me English any more than my Italian or Irish heritages make me Italian or Irish. I grew up in America and within that culture - whether you like it or not, you are culturally Australian, just as I am culturally American. The past 18 years have added another dimension to my cultural identity, but they do NOT eradicate the first half of my life. Even if my parents had been English, I would still have had all of my formative cultural experiences in America - just as yours were in Australia.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,EricTheOrange
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 12:39 PM

Firstly to Ruth Archer -- sorry Ruth I didn't make myself clear. I personally believe that there are two types of English -- those who grew up here and those who have settled and chosen to make their lives here as adults. To me both are equally 'English' and I strongly believe that England finds its unique identity and strength in the melding of the two. The only reason I point out any differentiation is because you pick up a lot of your adult identity from the culture in which you grow up.

The 'English' who I described as being "neither one thing nor the other" are those ex-pat children who grow up in other countries absorbing that country's culture but never considering themselves a part of it. They come to England thinking they are the definition of 'Englishness' only to find out that their imagined version of England and what it is to be English is not true either.


Secondly to WAV, where you said 'If someone is born in a country and they return to live there, then that person is a repat. - NOT an immigrant.'

Sounds like I struck a nerve!??

You said 'I've read widely from the canon of English verse; I keep fit with lawn tennis; my staple meal is pottages; my repertoire of Chants, hymns, and songs is English; I participate in the NE England folk and poetry scenes; I've worked on my pronunciation and done a couple of technical courses here; I grow English ivy;' That certainl makes you something, but it's not 'English'.

If you're brought up in a different country you're culturally an immigrant regardless of what it says on your birth certificate. That doesn't stop you being English in my book, but it sounds like it does in yours.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 01:17 PM

Mandotim and IB - as I said, as a repat., rather than a visitor to England, I have practised an English accent, but, as I also suggested, people still can still tell my time in Australia; but that's a far cry from the Beatles practising an American accent in order to be more pop...with some of you, it really is a case of damned if I do, and damned if I don't. "Australian accent is in no way a remnant, it gets stronger every time I see yo" (IB)...others have said otherwise but, if it's true, it's not for want of trying...I've listened carefully to Geordie athletics commentary, e.g.
WR - I said "old-fashioned English"; and here's an e.g. of "pottages" for you (and, before you say it, I'm aware some of these foods are imported...fair-trade is part of my argument, remember)...

Poem 93 of 230: ONE-POT COOKING

While living as a bachelor
    I've cooked in just one pot -
Cast iron with a wooden handle,
    It can hold quite a lot:

Slices of potato and carrot
    Are boiled a while,
Before a thinly-chopped onion
    Is mixed with the pile.

Then I drain off most of the water,
    Add canned lentils and beans,
Stir with spice and tomato sauce -
    To an end, it's a means.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Ruth - "you are culturally Australian"...I had Australianised, of course, during my 26 years there, but I just gave you an example (posted again by Eric) of how I really DO live my life now, which IS far more English than Australian, because I'm a determined repat. NOT a visitor, this time. Ironically, 20 years ago, I saw myself as an Aussie traveller visiting the likes of India, where I found myself arguing with locals that I was NOT English but Australian!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 02:00 PM

Right now, as I write & listen to the Amazing Blondel (A Corner of a Foreign Field... live 1972) whilst in the OVEN is a single pot... In this pot is the remaining half of last night's mixed hedge (essentially a stir-fry but without the oriental focus: ingans, sweet potatoes, whole chardonnay carrots, Herbes de Provence, spring greens, finely chopped turkey breast, cherry tomatoes, chestnut mushrooms; no added liquid). Over this I've laid something halfway between a pie crust & dumpling (basically strong white flour, olive oil, herbes de provence & water); it goes on slightly soggy so as best to fit the contours of the hedge remnants.

Turned out a treat the other night, but how will it be tonight?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 02:02 PM

how I really DO live my life now, which IS far more English than Australian, because I'm a determined repat

And yet, if you were really determined to fit in to England as it is now, you wouldn't be reading poetry, you probably wouldn't be playing tennis and you definitely wouldn't be questioning immigration. Half of what you say & do is from an England that died 25 years ago, the other half is all your own work.

Which doesn't matter - you are who you are and you do what you do. I don't even object to you trying to mould your life to some imagined idea of Englishness, although I do think it's a bit sad. What I do object to is your setting yourself up as some kind of arbiter of Englishness and the idea of England - a topic about which you clearly know far less than the mongrels and migrants who are debating with you here.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 02:04 PM

...I wonder if IB, secretly, is the third Hairy Biker/Baker?!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 02:08 PM

Which reminds me, here's my personal credo (courtesy of Neil Innes):

What do you do?
I don't know, but I know I do it every day

Why do you do it?
I don't know, but I know I do it anyway

I do what I do, indeed I do
I do what I do every day
I do what I do
I am what I am
We are what we are
We do what we can

What do you do?
I don't know, but I know I do it everyday

Why do you do it?
I don't know, but I know I do it anyway

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 02:47 PM

"Which doesn't matter - you are who you are and you do what you do. I don't even object to you trying to mould your life to some imagined idea of Englishness,"

Nor do I, and nor would anyone else..it's when WAV insists that the rest of us should be living by his rather shambolic and arbitrary rules that people lose patience.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 03:01 PM

but how will it be tonight?

Perfect! Hairy Bikers, eh? Saw it for the first time the other night on my brother's recommendation - the wedding cake episode. My favourite food programme of late is The Super-sizers Go... - now that's a real taste of England!

Now it's out with my air-rifle to bag a few crepuscular rabbits in the dunes before a night at the local folk club. Cook 'em just right & they're delicious; the secret's in the marinade.

Jawbone and the air rifle
Who would think they would bring harm?
Jawbone and the air rifle
One is cursed and one is borne

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 03:09 PM

Careful what you wish for (or aim at), IB. From memory, The rabbit-killer could not eat for a week, and no way can he look at meat. No bottle has he any more... (and then it gets strange).

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,EricTheOrange
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 06:23 PM

WAV -- as Pip said, it seems that you're a bit of a sad case. You're making so much effort trying to sound and act like an English person yet you're completely missing the point about what it is to be English. You make yourself a laughing stock and then try and tell us who and what we should be. You're an English equivalent of a 'plastic paddy' -- (could it be called a 'rubber Johnny'?????)

Maybe if you spent less time pretending to be English you'd have the time (and humility) to find out what it is to be English in the 21st Century.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 08:24 PM

Wav.
Sorry to break the bad news to you.
But...............
You are an Aussie.
Deal with it, or get some therapy.
But, please drop this garbage.
Nobody agrees with you.
If you want to pretend that you are English (when you're not) FINE.
Just keep it to yourself. WE DON'T CARE.
And please
NO MORE POEMS.
They don't even rhyme

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 04:21 AM

(and then it gets strange)

As the summer draws to and end and such braw pots as detailed above are the order of the day; as the nights draw in and the year's Dandy-Beano and The Broons & Oor Wullie retrospectives hit the shelves (bought mine in Waterstones in Preston on Saturday for a fiver a throw; better still, turned up originals of the 1955 & 1961 Dandy Book and a 1962 Beano Book for £3.99 a pop at Oxfam); when one delights in a 1954 edition of the King Penguin book of Misericords - Medieval Life in English Woodcarving (which is worth seeking on-line otherwise you could pay up to £25 from an antiquarian bookseller); when one digs into the darker corners of one's ballad repertoire at singarounds; when, for daily listening, one roots out one's original vinyl copy of The Clemencic Consort's landmark recording of Le Roman de Fauvel featuring what might regarded as the definitive performance by Rene Zosso (the perfect musical accompaniment, incidentally, for the perusing of the aforementioned Misericords - Medieval Life in English Woodcarving); when one waits with baited breath for the publication of the full facsimile of the recently unearthed masterpiece of medieval English art that is The Macclesfield Psalter... then one might also, in those all-too quiet moments when inner-reflection threatens to consume one in a maelstrom of self-doubt and melancholy at a life thus wasted in dedication to folk song and other such anachronisms, find comfort (as one has been doing now since it's release in 1982) in Hex Enduction Hour by The Fall - who, in taking their name from Camus, will forever synonymous with Autumn. I have in my keeping a bootleg recorded in Newcastle in October 1981; a fine night in The Bierkeller (I was there) where they featured a lot of what would later turn up on Hex, including, of course, Jawbone and the Air Rifle, introduced by Mark E. Smith in a cod Scots accent as a wee tale from the Anthrax Island.

I've often tried to figure out a way of singing it in folk clubs; one day I might even nail it. Meanwhile, in the spirit of true Engishness, 5000 Morris Dancers, 700 Elves, the oncoming autumn and pure poetic excellence, here it is in full...   

JAWBONE AND THE AIR-RIFLE

The rabbit killer left his home for the clough
And said goodbye to his infertile spouse
Carried air rifle and firm stock of wood
Carried night-site telescope light

A cemetery overlooked clough valley of mud
And the grave-keeper was out on his rounds
Yellow-white shirt buried in duffle coat hood
Keeping edges out with mosaic color stones

Jawbone and the air rifle
Who would think they would bring harm?
Jawbone and the air rifle
One is cursed and one is borne

The air rifle lets out a mis-placed shot
It smashed a chip off a valued tomb
Grave-keeper tending wreath-roots said
"Explain, move into the light of the moon"

"I thought you were rabbit prey, or a loose sex criminal"

Rifleman he say "Y'see I get no kicks anymore
From wife or children four
There's been no war for forty years
And getting drunk fills me with guilt
So after eight, I prowl the hills
Eleven o'clock, I'm tired to fuck
Y'see I've been laid off work"

The grave-keeper said
"You're out of luck
And here is a jawbone caked in muck
Carries the germ of a curse
Of the Broken Brothers Pentacle Church
Formed on a Scotch island
To make you a bit of a man"

Jawbone and the air rifle
Who would think they would bring harm?
Jawbone and the air rifle
One is cursed and one is warm

The rabbit killer did not eat for a week
And no way he can look at meat
No bottle has he anymore
It could be his mangled teeth
He sees jawbones on the street
Advertisements become carnivores
And roadworkers turn into jawbones
And he has visions of islands, heavily covered in slime
The villagers dance round pre-fabs
And laugh through twisted mouths
Don't eat
It's disallowed
Suck on marrowbones and energy from the mainland

Jawbone and the air rifle
Who would think they would bring harm?
Jawbone and the air rifle
One is cursed and one is gone

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 06:03 AM

To Ralphie and Eric - suggesting that a repat. to England can never again be English is not racist but it is at least bordering on bigotry.

Perhaps an Irish reader or two may post on how those returning from America or Aus., e.g., to the "Celtic Tiger" might be treated if they made similar efforts to these (from above)...

"I've read widely from the canon of English verse; I keep fit with lawn tennis; my staple meal is pottages; my repertoire of Chants, hymns, and songs is English; I participate in the NE England folk and poetry scenes; I've worked on my pronunciation and done a couple of technical courses here;" etc.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 06:14 AM

suggesting that a repat. to England can never again be English is not racist but it is at least bordering on bigotry.

Nonsense. Eric didn't say you could never again be English - he said that, as far as he's concerned, you are English, as well as being an immigrant ("If you're brought up in a different country you're culturally an immigrant regardless of what it says on your birth certificate. That doesn't stop you being English in my book, but it sounds like it does in yours.")

You are what you are - your life in Australia made you what you are, just as my life in the south-east of England formed me. You're English now, just as I'm Mancunian now. It's not a problem.

Perhaps an Irish reader or two may post on how those returning from America or Aus., e.g., to the "Celtic Tiger" might be treated if they made similar efforts to these

If they took up hurling, played the bodhran and lived on champ and tatties, all the while proclaiming the virtue of Irish traditional culture and questioning immigration? I think they'd be a laughing-stock, actually.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 06:21 AM

Most people who emigrated to America before the Irish economy strengthened were young adults. They grew up in Ireland, and their cultural identity remained strongly Irish, as most of them stayed within communities of ex-pat Irish. I experienced this extensively on both coasts of America in the late 80s.

Their experience would be very different to that of a very small child who was taken abroad with his parents,and whose formative cultural experiences were of the new culture, rather than the one he'd emigrated from.

In any case, many Irish people who returned to Ireland post-Celtic Tiger did have a substantial cutlure shock, as the country had changed a lot since they left - inward immigration, the cessation of violence in NI creating a new political landscape, a more technology and service-based economy, etc. It would take a lot of adjustment to come to terms with contemporary Ireland, rather than the one they'd left. I'd suggest that white pudding, sean nos and hurling would not necessarily be the tools of choice to help them to make that adjustment.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 06:22 AM

Pip: great minds...

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: mandotim
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 07:23 AM

Just for the record, WAV, I don't have a problem with you calling yourself English, if that's what you choose. I was using your own argument in order to demonstrate the foolishness of your position on nationality and culture.

One thing I would be very interested in; the reason why your parents chose to emigrate to Australia in the first place. For a better life over there perhaps? Most people who emigrated to Australia and elsewhere about that time did so for better employment prospects and a more prosperous life. Sounds like economic migration to me. It certainly wasn't seeking asylum in the nearest safe country was it? It is fair to assume that you grew up enjoying the many benefits of Australia and its society. In other words, you are a beneficiary of the kind of economic migration you now propose to deny to others on a global basis.

Pulling up the ladder?
Tim

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 08:15 AM

"Pip: great minds..." (Ruth)?...
"he said that, as far as he's concerned, you are English (Pip)?...
"You are an Aussie" (Ralphie)...
"pretending to be English" (Eric)...
I'd have thought "great minds" would be able to read and analyse a web thread accurately.
Yes, Mandotim - my family were/are economic immigrants and I'm the only one who has repatriated - but I've never said that everyone should do the same. For what it's worth, we do agree on other things, but, through much study, travel, experience and thought, I gradually turned more-and-more against imperialism and economic/capitalist immigration/emigration, to the point where I now think the world would be a better, safer, and more interesting place if the UN made economic immigration illegal - FROM NOW ON.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 09:01 AM

Yes, Eric did say you were "pretending to be English". He also said that being an immigrant "doesn't stop you being English in my book".

I agree with him on both counts. On one hand, you are English (by virtue of choosing to live here). On the other hand, you think being English involves much more than that, & you're trying to live up to your own image of Englishness - you're trying to live the life of a person you don't believe you are ("pretending to be English"). I think it's futile and rather silly; the good news is that it's completely unnecessary, since you're English anyway.

I now think the world would be a better, safer, and more interesting place if the UN made economic immigration illegal - FROM NOW ON.

And you've been saying this since, when, 2004? What message do you think that would send to anyone reading this who had come to live in England in 2005 or 2006?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: mandotim
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 09:06 AM

Like I said; pulling up the ladder so others can't have the freedom to live where they choose - the freedom you enjoyed. Says a lot about you, WAV.
Tim

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 09:43 AM

to the point where I now think the world would be a better, safer, and more interesting place if the UN made economic immigration illegal

WAV - what you've done is obviously good for yourself; but it DOES NOT put you in any position to tell others what they should do nor yet pontificate on the broader issues of human migration & culture which really are too complex and vast an issue to be boiled down to the sort of simplistic sloganeering you feel somehow represents the best way forward for humanity. It doesn't matter what you think, WAV - so why waste time & energy that could be better spent elsewhere - such as learning new songs, or exploring the wonders of your Australian-English heritage, or even just joining your local morris side?

FROM NOW ON

Now lasts for all eternity, WAV - what gives you the right to speak of such things? Show some humility for goodness sake.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: melodeonboy
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 09:59 AM

"It doesn't matter what you think, WAV - so why waste time & energy that could be better spent elsewhere"

followed by..

"Show some humility for goodness sake."

Mmmm.... pots and kettles?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: mandotim
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 10:02 AM

Tell you what, WAV; you say you're not working at the moment; why not use the time fruitfully and stand for election in your local area? There will be an election in the next two years, so you'll need to start right away. If you think your idea of Englishness is so popular, and that people should support it, why not put it to the test; turn the idea and the associated policies (eg ban immigration, cultural segregation, morris dancing for all, pottage diets etc.) into a manifesto and let the voters decide? (And before you ask, yes, I have tried this myself; I was a councillor and a JP for many years.) If you believe in democracy, and you are fully convinced of the 'rightness' of your ideas, how can you lose?
Tim

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 10:37 AM

Still a lot of deliberate idiocy here and bigoted denigration of English traditions.

By the way Romany Man I think I am right that there is a collective noun amongst the Roma for the non-Roma. Might it be something like "gaujo" - I have not stopped to look up? My impression was that it was used to distinguish, and not fondly.

There definitely is a word used widely by Roma to distinguish and express disapproval of non-Romany travellers. Ironically it is one also and erroneusly used by gaujo (with disapproval) of gypsies: "Diddicoy".

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 11:06 AM

Mmmm.... pots and kettles?

Not at all, melodeonboy - just a piece of timely advice to a single fellow human, not a manifesto that would unsettle the lives of millions.

Still a lot of deliberate idiocy here and bigoted denigration of English traditions.

Idiocy I grant, Richard - but deliberate? And what are these English Traditions that have been so bigotously* denigrated?

* A Google search gave me 561 hits for bigotous, not sure if this counts or not, but I rather like the sound of it...

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 12:41 PM

"ban immigration" (Tim)...wrong words in my mouth, again - I've said increase regulations, including making economic/capitalist (not all) immigration/emigration illegal, from now on (READ above for more on this).
"Still a lot of deliberate idiocy here and bigoted denigration of English traditions." (Richard)...yes, and good Irish traditions also, sadly.
IB - are you sure I'm someone who's sat down to write before standing up to live? And, Tim, again, surely one of the things that we can agree on is that I'm hardly the only political one in folk and poetry circles, and I think I'll stick with them, rather than the formal politics you just suggested, for now - but thanks.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,EricTheOrange
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 12:50 PM

Thanks Pip for explaining what I mean far better than I could manage myself.

WAV you said 'Perhaps an Irish reader or two may post on how those returning from America or Aus., e.g., to the "Celtic Tiger" might be treated if they made similar efforts to these (from above)...'

If you went around putting on a fake 'oirish' accent I know exactly what they would think of you. Pretty much what most of us think of you now.

As Pip clarified I say you are pretending to be English because you're not interested in discovering what England or being English is really about, just in living out your deluded fantasy and using it as the basis for the prejudicial treatment of others.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 01:00 PM

WAV, what are these types of immigration you claim to sanction?

PS - Asylum is not immigration - it doesn't count.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: mandotim
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 01:10 PM

Ok WAV; you want to 'make illegal' all 'economic' immigration. That's precisely the point; you benefited from such immigration into Australia, and now you want to prevent others from benefiting from the same process, albeit reversed. Dog in the manger probaly sums it up.
As for your second point about politics; your arguments really are laughable, and your ability to miss the point borders on the heroic at times. The fact that there are political people involved in folk music does not equate the folk world with true electoral politics. Folk music is not a democracy, we don't have to hold our opinions up to scrutiny by the public in elections, just play or sing to audiences, who may or may not listen. Having said that, most people in folk don't seek to prescribe a way of living for others or propound a particularly noxious set of prejudices (masquerading as social and economic policies)as a kind of political manifesto. You do, and to me it seems that this kind of behaviour is better suited to electoral politics. I say again; have the courage of your convictions, and stand for election. I did, why can't you? Afraid of how real English people might view your ideas?
Tim

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 01:22 PM

IB - are you sure I'm someone who's sat down to write before standing up to live?

For harbouring such ideas as you do - I'd have to say yes to that one, WAV. I'm not just wary of righteousness and absolutism, I see them as the worst kind of evil; when one person assumes that what is right for them is also right for anyone else but themselves, then something has gone seriously wrong somewhere. You say your way is the best way forward for humanity & will make the world a more interesting place; I say humanity is doing just fine & I couldn't conceive of a world more interesting than it is already.

They say travel broadens the mind - I ask again, where did we go wrong with you?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: mandotim
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 01:22 PM

Second line; should read 'probably'.
Tim

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: mandotim
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 01:58 PM

Oh, and another thing; pottage isn't English, it's French; as in 'potage', meaning 'the contents of a pot'. Thought to have come over here with those well known economic immigrantsIn Normandy they do a very good potage with pork, cream, cider, calvados, sage and apples. Does this mean a wholesale change of diet as well as a shift in WAV election policy?
Yours gastropolitically
Tim

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: mandotim
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 02:01 PM

Itchy posting finger again; I'm really bored tonight! I meant to say those well known economic immigrants the Huguenots. Or were they political asylum seekers?
Tim

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 02:11 PM

In case you missed it, Tim, as you tend to do, please keep in mind that fair-trade is part of my argument...

Poem 206 of 230: MY DIET

Chasing breads, nuts, bananas,
    Red sauce, apples, sultanas,
Crackers, conserves, cucumbers,
    Pickles, porridge, pottages -

Lemon barley,
    Cocoa, coffee,
Or cups of tea.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Yours gastropoetically,
WAV

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: mandotim
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 03:00 PM

WAV; I don't think I missed anything. Did I mention trade? No. Fair or otherwise? No. You made the point earlier about your acquired Englishness, letting us know that one of your efforts to be more English included a staple food of Pottage. There was a clear implication that you considered pottage to be a quintessentially English dish; I pointed out that pottage isn't really of English origin at all, it's French. Try eating Chicken Tikka Masala, that really was invented in England.
Gastropoetically? No arguments with the gastro bit, but poetic? Please stop replying to arguments with your 'poems'. They are without exception, drivel. The one you quoted is a shopping list, not a poem.
Tim
Vote WAV in 2010! (If he has the guts to stand)

P.S. Incidentally, were you aware that there is another David Franks who writes poetry? He's American, doesn't claim to be anything else, and he's a real poet. He's quite good. You're not him are you? No, course you're not, silly of me.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 05:12 PM

No, I'm not that David Franks, Tim - nor the one that started the "Walkabout" chain of pubs!...there's too many :-(> ...but, these days, at least one of my sites is usually on the first page or two of google and yahoo.
And 2010...a shoe-in?!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: mandotim
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 03:53 AM

From your likely manifesto, I think most of your supporters will be of the 'boot-in' variety.
Tim

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: romany man
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 05:36 AM

Richard, yes gorga is used to express the difference between roma and non roma, its not derogatory but could be if you choose to, didicoi is a word in roma to show a person is of mixed roma race,gogas use it as a general derogatory term, as many mixed roma relationships are now the "norm" many could be classed by roma's as didicoi.
I have spoken to quite a few of the "elders" most just say ifn you wanna slag a gorga jus tell theys gorga, and thats it .
As for this thread folks wanna get out more.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 05:47 AM

Wasn't Chicken Tikka Masala invented in Glasgow? - And the guillotine in Halifax.............

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 06:33 AM

To SPB: during my 5 weeks in India, as with the locals, I enjoyed mostly dahl and rice - mopped-up with a chowpatty, but occasionally splurged on a vegetable biryani.
And to Tim: realistically, in terms of repatriation and popularity, I'm certainly not the English Gandhi, at this stage...but as he kept spinning his Indian wheel, so shall I keep playing my English flute - in and "out", RM.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: s&r
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 07:14 AM

Typo for chapati or cowpatty?

Different flavour I would think

Stu

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 07:42 AM

True, Stu - mopping-up the dahl and rice with a bit of "cowpatty" or Mumbai's beach would not be a good idea...even if they were washed down with a nice hot chai, or a nice cool lassi.
And, by the way IB, who knows, maybe one day I will get to play the English flute for my "local Morris (or rapper) side"..?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 09:38 AM

And here I was thinking Cowpatty was another name for your ramblings. Or is Horsehockey better? Why not just use Complete Crap which seems to be the prevailing opinion around Mudcat.............

I think this is one of yours too....At least it seems to be exactly the same type of Cowpatty you write........

I am Walksabout and I sometimes go
To my garden to pick something that rhymes with go
So I pick some beans...no make it oregano and basil.
While there I scatter seeds for the birds
But they cover me over with their tiny turds.
       ........Walksaboutverse 7.56.93491/3395.33(5933)/7459275844.1


Spaw

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 12:20 PM

Actually, Spaw, I spent my afternoon watching, via satellite from Scotland, not "Horsehockey" but the 100th Shinty Cup, in which Fort William beat Kingussie 2-1 - whilst going through my repertoire of English hymns on both keyboards and English flute. And herein lies another example of what I mean by appreciating other cultures but practising/performing one's own.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: mandotim
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 02:33 PM

You say you're not the English Ghandi at this stage; does that mean you see yourself as the English Ghandi at some point in the future? Which of Ghandi's achievements do you see yourself emulating eventually? I'm interested, I'd like to know the extent of your delusional state.
Tim

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Don Firth (computer still in the shop)
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 03:15 PM

Apply passive resistence in order to throw the Norman conquerors out?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 03:22 PM

If I was deluding myself, rather than being realistic, Tim, I'd say I was a very popular repat.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,EricTheOrange
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 03:39 PM

The sad thing is WAV that if you took your head out of your arse you'd find that learning about England today can be an uplifting journey.

All countries have their problems, and that's no different here, but there is such a rich diversity in this land, layer upon layer of cultural riches, that you could spend a lifetime exploring and savouring what is out there. Sadly while you persist in living out your delusions you're missing the vibrant reality.

You are however to be congratulated on one point. Such is the diversity of people and culture through this land, every county has different traditions and cultural strengths. Every city, every town, even every village, have their own slightly different version of 'Englishness' to experience, thousands and thousands of variations making a wonderful collective tapestry. I take my hat off to you that you've managed to come up with a version that nobody else seems to recognise.

ETO


p.s. After experiencing some of your 'artistic' offerings I feel the question has to be asked of course, did you choose to come back from Aus or did they send you back????? Our loss is their gain ;-)

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 03:53 PM

...that "p.s." is subjective, Eric: someone who is as, or perhaps more, critical of me on the matters you just mentioned has enjoyed at least some of my music - see just above.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 05:00 PM

Dital Harp

Saw one of these bizarre monstrous hybrids in the Walker Art Gallery in Liverpool today; described Here as '...essentially a cross between a harp and a guitar. They were fashionable for a short period after the instrument was patented in 1816.' Another essential slab of English culture!

I'm certainly not the English Gandhi

Ghandi was racist too - see here. A super-calloused-fragile-mystic-hexed-by-halitosis...

at this stage...

You really ought to write a book on modesty, WAV.

but as he kept spinning his Indian wheel, so shall I keep playing my English flute

The recorder was a continental European innovation for the baroque orchestra, called English to differentiate it from the transverse or German flute, and reaching its apotheosis as virtuoso solo instrument in concertos by Marcello et al. Not only this, but it was revived as an Early Music instrument in the early 20th century by Dolmetsch. So not actually an English flute any more than a Cor Anglais is an English horn; and not in the least bit traditional, continuous, or even appropriate to folk music in any shape or form, and certainly not according to your own rather limited remit. A foreign import in every sense. But you've been told this before...

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: mandotim
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 05:54 PM

Again, straight question; which of Gandhi's achievements do you see yourself emulating? After all, it was you who first made the comparison. Straight answer please, and no referral to your websites. Lets have some original thinking.
Tim

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Don Firth (computer still in the shop)
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 07:10 PM

I'm tempted at this point to paraphrase Lloyd Benson's comment to Dan Quayle in their debate some time back.

Clicky.

Nah. Too easy. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 01:18 AM

There I was
Digging this hole
Hole in the ground
So big and sort of round it was
It's not there now
The grounds all flat
And beneath it is the bloke in the bowler hat......


......And that's that.

(Bernard Cribbins)

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,EricTheOrange
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 03:17 AM

Well done WAV I cannot believe that I've been so dense!

The weird world view, delusions of grandeur, the bad 'poetry', the ignorance, the constant posting of objectionable views. To quote those wise sages McFly, it's all about you. You obviously get off on the attention the sh*te you come up with generates pumping up what must be a pretty poor self-image. You're just like a small child trying anything they can to say "look at me!look at me!"

I think the best thing to do is to ignore you.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 04:47 AM

No - I'm genuinely heavily against the status quo, and have tried to do something about it, with limited means. Sometimes on forums I get criticised for being dull and repetative, other times too colourful in my language. But, frankly, yes, for the above reasons, I do want a lot of people to read my life's work.
By the way, just listened to Bryn Terfel on "The Andrew Marr Show" talking about his Proms performance last night...for what it's worth, I thought he was in good voice, but his attempts to keep the kingdom united with his flag-hankies were ridiculous.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 04:54 AM

I think the best thing to do is to ignore you.

Despite my earlier pronouncements in this regard, I think perhaps this might be the best course of action after all.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 07:03 AM

WAV.

GO BACK TO AUSTRALIA. WE DON"T WANT YOU HERE ANYMORE.
YOU ARE A TROLL.
WHICH OF THESE WORDS DON"T YOU UNDERSTAND?

sorry for shouting....
Actually.....no I'm not....
It's all he deserves....

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 12:24 PM

So, even though I only use peaceful democratic means to at least try and change aspects of the status quo, you say: "GO BACK TO AUSTRALIA. WE DON"T WANT YOU HERE ANYMORE."...that quote says a lot about you, Ralphie.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: romany man
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 12:37 PM

AT last sense appears on the thread, ifn you dont reply perhaps itll go away, either that or keep replying to him and biting on his views, just feeds the demogog

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Don Firth (I get my computer back this week)
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 01:04 PM

Yeah, probably the best idea. I have visions of some gink standing on a soap box spouting off with no one listening except a few passing sqirrels and pigeons.

Don Firth (WAVing goodbye)

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 02:16 PM

...not sure where you are going Don, but I'm staying here in the land of all my known forebears, where I was born the day Alf Ramsey's English team won the World Cup of football, etc..

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Don Firth (computer, etc.)
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 02:41 PM

Well, actually, WAV, the writers' group I belong to meets in a few minutes and I'm assembling my material and preparing to answer the door when they begin to arrive. The purpose of the group is mutual support and criticism, that sort of thing. Several of us are published; sold things to magazines, journals, two of us have books published and are receiving royalies therefrom.

I find the group very stimulating and helpful. I might suggest that you seek out a similar group where you are.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Gervase
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 04:48 PM

Please, this inane, witless and racist troll has been fed for long enough - whatever you post will only evince an equally thick-skinned and shameless reply, so maybe it's time to let it drop and ponder on the last time an internet forum thread ever caused someone to change the mind.
Step away from the computer and put down the mouse..

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 04:51 PM

Dick Miles will be appearing at Swinton folkclub,WhiteLion sept 15 2008.
thread drift but to my mind a little more interesting.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 05:31 PM

"I might suggest that you seek out a similar group where you are." (Don)...you've assumed things again, which some say is a sign of arrogance - I do, in fact, attend something similar: a poetry club, where we read and discuss poems, including our own.
Gervase - that's false and defamatory: I've only questioned the act of immigration itself. Racism is where someone says something like "they are all like this or that", which I have never done.
And have you moved back to England, Dick?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 05:58 PM

Gervase - that's false and defamatory: I've only questioned the act of immigration itself. Racism is where someone says something like "they are all like this or that", which I have never done.

Look, David, if you want to live in England you're going to have to get used to the way we do things here. One of the things we emphatically don't do, and haven't done for many years, is define racism as narrowly as you do. The prevailing definition of racism, here in England in 2008, is quite well summed up by the Oxford English Dictionary:

prejudice and antagonism towards people of other races, esp. those felt to be a threat to one's cultural or racial integrity or economic well-being; the expression of such prejudice in words or actions/i>

If you accept that definition - and, I repeat, it is very generally accepted, here in England - then it's not at all surprising that you're being charged with racism. By that definition, your views are racist. If you don't want people to think you're a racist, you need to change your views.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Don Firth (computer, etc.)
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 10:49 PM

Not at all arrogant, WAV. Just striving to be helpful, as ever. Good that you are already in such a group.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:28 AM

"prejudice and antagonism towards people of other races" (Oxford English Dictionary, via Pip)...and I clearly do NOT have such - I've only questioned the act/amount of immigration itself, and HAVE enjoyed temporarily being among many other ethnicities on my travels, as a respectful tourist. E.g., if you look back, you'll see I've questioned people from my own country, England, pricing young Spanish couples out of the property market there, rather than just VISITING as respectful tourists. I'm probably one of the least racist people in the world, and I genuinely believe the world would be a better more-peaceful place if the UN made economic/capitalist (NOT all) immigration/emigration illegal FROM NOW ON.
"if you want to live in England you're going to have to get used to the way we do things here" (Pip)...that's a silly generalisation, as the degree to which people in England question (the amount of) immigration varies greatly. I don't mind if you say - at the moment, you definitely question immigration more than most...but calling me a "racist", again, is false and defamatory.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:50 AM

"prejudice and antagonism towards people of other races" (Oxford English Dictionary, via Pip)...and I clearly do NOT have such

WAV, you want non-English people to stay out of England, because you think England should be culturally pure ("trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law will always be problematic"). I'd say that's a pretty prejudicial view of non-English people, not to mention antagonistic towards any non-English people who might want to come here.

I don't mind if you say - at the moment, you definitely question immigration more than most

At the moment, you definitely question immigration on racist grounds.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:54 AM

That's false and defamatory, WR - READ what I just posted.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:31 AM

I've read it, WAV, many times.

Is it 'false' to say that you would like England to be culturally pure? A Yes or a No will suffice.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: s&r
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:57 AM

If we had no immigration from now on WAV would you consider that the people born in England had the right to play Bangra or Reggae or rap or hip hop as English music? And play it on sitars, mbiras bouzoukis or other recently adopted English instruments? When do the "New English" become English in your definition.

Stu

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:04 AM

So WAV.
The UK shouldn't be members of the EU Either?
I don't know, all these pesky Europeans living in "our" country, quite legally, for as long as they want to.
Marrying and inseminating our Fair English Maidens, with the consequence of further diluting our proud English stock.
(BTW, You've singularly failed to define what English stock is, haven't you?)
Culturally pure? Don't make me laugh.
The British are a bunch of mongrels, and proud of it.
And apart from a few racist weirdos in the BNP, most of us welcome the diversity that multi-culturalism presents to us.
If you don't like how we do things here, go back to being a "respectful tourist" somewhere else.
The whole point of being English is having the ability not to be bothered as to what it is.
Some of my Muslim, Jewish, Polaish, etc friends, are more English than you.
WAV=Racist?
I'll ask the audience Chris.
The answer ......99% YES.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: mandotim
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:16 AM

Dear Mudcatters; every time we reply to this racist troll, he thinks we are replying because we think his views are profound enough to warrant argument. He gets a thrill from all the attention. (I'm as guilty as anyone in this respect, I've fed him plenty over the last few months.) Please don't feed him any more; perhaps being ignored might convince him to at least moderate his views. I fear, however, that the poetry won't improve.
Tim

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,baz parkes
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:24 AM

Ralphie

"English stock"

I onion, 1 stick celery 1 carrot, 1 bunch herbs

Simmer

or all of above with abunch of old bones:-)

Gastronomically yours

Baz

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: s&r
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:25 AM

Just for interest:

"Come along to the Bridge Hotel in Newcastle to see ten top performers with spoken words, words set to music, words shared between people, words on walls, words in songs, words in poetry, words in stories… each of the ten performers has ten minutes to engage you, thrill you, entrance you and hopefully inspire you. The first Ten By Ten night kicks off at the Bridge Hotel and will be hosted by Stand Up comedian and poetry diva Kate Fox. We have a fantastic line up for the first Ten by Ten; we have top poets, new poets, singer songwriters, poets putting words to music, published poets, unsigned poets. It's going to be FABULOUS. The performers will be David Franks, Ian Watson, Kyla Clay Fox, John Cartmel-Crossley, John Quinn, The Plexus (featuring Karl Thompson and Ralph Stokes), Scott Tyrrell, Sheree Mack, Simma and Valerie Apted."

So if you want to be engaged and thrilled...

Stu

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 07:34 AM

I wish I lived there.......I wouldn't miss the chance to point out in public that Wavy Dude is a racist, prejudiced, broke-dick, piece of ...........

Spaw

PS....As far as responding to this Dork, he's enjoying it but then again, so are a lot of others in calling his sorry as out. Mudcatters love to talk too much for that to be effective. If this entire group stops posting, he'll simply refresh his threads himself until someone new comes along and bites. Gervase is right but I've never seen it work here. I'd point out btw that one Gervase cannot be equaled by the posts of a million Wavytoids.......not an opinion...a fact.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 12:51 PM

Dear Spaw, WR, S&R, R: you forget about assimilation; yes the EU should be dissolved - apart from some local/county government, all any given national needs is his/her nation and the UN; I've never just put "refresh" - although I will keep posting my "Weekly Walkabout" in the BS section, even if no-one responds; and I've never advertised a gig/mini-gig, such as the one from way back that Stu just took the liberty of posting (very respectful to all concerned, Stu?).
Baz - sounds good...what herbs would you recommend...parsley, sage, rosemary, thyme?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: s&r
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 02:30 PM

Sorry WAV = didn't spot it's a two year old advert - how did it go?

Stu

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: s&r
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 02:33 PM

What's wrong with 'refresh'?

Stu

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Don Firth (computer, etc.)
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 02:44 PM

Without further comment.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: s&r
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 02:44 PM

So should {say} English reggae bands continue to play English reggae?

Stu

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 02:55 PM

Prejudice and antagonism are different things.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 05:42 AM

Don: your link is not funny - I think you should stick to being a man of letters; and, for what it's worth, I got on okay with Americans of various origins during my visits there (see, if you wish, poems 32, 33, 37, 38, 40, 41).
Stu - I've participated, as an amateur, in a couple of those 10 by 10 gigs, which went okay, in just-about-packed venues. And my understanding is that reggae is what has become the mainstream music of the Caribbean, used, e.g., by Rastafarians, such as Bob Marley - "movement of the people" - to promote their belief in a return to Africa. And this music is not to be confused, either, with the indigenous music of the Caribs - a chief of whom has recently made international news in his attempts to save the good culture of his people.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 05:55 AM

my understanding is that reggae is what has become the mainstream music of the Caribbean, used, e.g., by Rastafarians, such as Bob Marley - "movement of the people" - to promote their belief in a return to Africa

So should {say} English reggae bands continue to play English reggae?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Don Firth (computer, etc.)
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:08 PM

". . . your link is not funny."

Depends on your viewpoint, WAV. I can certainly imagine the mindset of someone who would not consider it funny. As you, apparently did not.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:09 PM

...I've enjoyed listening to some reggae, Pip, but I only practise and perform English songs and hymns...and maybe one day I'll have a go at some of our composer's songs, RVW, e.g.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,baz parkes
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:20 PM

Can you believe 400?:-)

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: s&r
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 01:06 PM

If this thread makes 5000 that's one for each morris dancer

Stu

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Don Firth (computer, etc.)
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 01:07 PM

At which point, this thread will implode into a black hole.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 02:30 PM

"If this thread makes 5000 that's one for each morris dancer" (Stu)...4 years, yet!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 04:02 PM

From: GUEST,Don Firth (computer, etc.)
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 01:07 PM

At which point, this thread will implode into a black hole.

see here

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Don Firth (computer, etc.)
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 04:43 PM

I think the appropriate word is

OOPS!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 06:10 PM

LOL.....This thread already IS a black hole. But its fun watching the racist and bigoted separatist try to defend compete and total bullshit with his "Life's Work."

Spaw

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 04:45 AM

That's false and defamatory, Spaw...and it's noteworthy how - following all the deregulation/laissez faire in financial markets, football competitions, immigration, etc., that was exaggerated in the 90s - people are now talking about regulating/reregulating things, which I've been saying ever since the 90s (here).

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: mandotim
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 05:11 AM

Should indigenous English bands, for whom Reggae is part of their own good English culture, continue to play Reggae?
Straight answer please, no referring to your life's work. Same question goes for English hip-hop bands.
Tim

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 05:50 AM

I'm giving up on WAV. Let's leave him to his dream of a world where Fredland is full of Freddish people doing Freddish things, Bertland is full of Bertish people doing Bertish things, and so on all round the globe. As dreams go, it's quite a pretty one.

But, before anyone mentions John Lennon, I don't say WAV's a dreamer - I say he's a racist. Because he presents this dream - which has never existed and never will do - as how the world should be. And trying to make this dream a reality would involve the use of coercive force on a massive, massive scale: it would involve telling thousands and thousands of people what to do and not to do, where to go and not to go, and getting men in blue uniforms to enforce the message with big sticks. And for what? Why should Mr Bert from Bertland not come to Fredland? Because he's a criminal, because he's unemployable, because he's carrying rabies? No - we don't need to know anything about him as a person. All we know is that he's Bertish, and we believe in conserving our good Freddish culture by keeping Bertish influences out - Fredland for the Freddish.

Anyone who can't see by now that this is a racist way of looking at the world will never see it. I suspect WAV himself is one of them.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 05:58 AM

But Spaw (with great respect and doffing of caps to a Cat Godfather!!)
Is it that much fun to watch a racist/seperatist/bigot squirm?
Mmmm, probably!

I wouldn't mind so much if he actually answered the many questions put to him?
On Mandotims point re Reggae.
There are plenty of Reggae bands in the UK, that were born here...makes them English IMHO.

Maybe we should co-join this thread with the "Dogs at Festivals" thread.

And retitle the combination as

Should Faux English/Aus Doggerel be allowed at festivals?

Answer, As long as they are kept on a lead or kept in Hot Cars for many hours.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 06:07 AM

Pip Old bean.
I'd rather live in a pure Ralphieland anyday....
You can keep your pure Pipradishland...

I mean.....The cuisine for starters....
An unrelenting diet of radishes? You're welcome to it!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 06:19 AM

I did answer that question - saying that, as an Englishman, I've enjoyed listening to reggae but only practise/perform English folk songs and hymns, and may try the songs of English composers in the future.
And here's a question for the above group who keep falsely using the R-word against me...what's your stance on the Rastafarian belief - sung by the likes of Marley in the mainstream CARRIBEAN MEDIUM of reggae, and spoken by the likes of Garvey - in a return to Africa (most have chosen Ethiopia, of course)?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 06:30 AM

Yes Yes, I shouldn't have gone there, but "Know thine enemy" as the saying goes.

So, this from WAVs website...

"My usual and only complaint with our present English-folk scene is the lack of loyalty to our own good tradition."

So WAV. In words of one syllable, what does that sentence mean exactly?

You've been very up-front in stating that your commitment to English music started in 2004.
So, you must have a huge knowledge of the traditions of the UK....No?

Share your insights with us, Oh Great One....so that we may worship at your fount of your knowledge, which you have spent (4-ish) years in intense contemplation.

No, Please......Not Show Of Hands......Please!!!!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: mandotim
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 06:44 AM

Music performed by English people, in England, for an English audience; Lyrics referring to English situations and places. English reggae bands fulfil all of these criteria. On what grounds, WAV, would you argue that they are not part of English culture? Will your attempts at the songs of English composers include the likes of Jazzy B? Burning Spear? Aswad?
With respect, you didn't answer the question; implicit in your reply is that your interest is English Folk Song, rather than other aspects of song from England. So I can understand more fully, what is your definition of an English Folk Song? (Rest of the list, get ready for a laugh here...)
Tim

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 07:35 AM

Do I think Bob Marley's views were racist? If he believed that black and white people actually should live separate lives in separate countries, yes, of course I do.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 08:04 AM

"My usual and only complaint with our present English-folk scene is the lack of loyalty to our own good tradition." (me)
So WAV. In words of one syllable, what does that sentence mean exactly? (Ralphie)...English singing with American accents; performing Irish, and other nations, tunes and songs instead of English ones; not having an English folk degre; low amount of English folk songs and tunes on the very limited folk radio and tv we have here, etc. (use above link). And, Tim, I've also had a go at defining English folk there.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 09:07 AM

WAV.
Well, As has been said many, many times before. Your version of "English" is not one that anyone else on this thread recognises.
It all sounds more akin to "Aryanism" to me.
Sorry old mate, Hitler lost.
Didn't you read about it?
Oh, and by the way, do you recognise that the Holocaust actually happened?...No??
Now, go away you pathetic little man.
As Spike Milligan once said.
"Ah What a lovely song.....German, German Overalls!"

(With apologies to all German readers, just Irony you know)

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 09:12 AM

Oh and WAV.

Please tell us at which University did you achieve your degree in English Folk Music....Brisbane? Perth? Sydney?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: mandotim
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 09:32 AM

With respect, WAV, you haven't defined English Folk at all; you just state that you 'sing' it. You assert that it is something that originates in England, and imply that it has some kind of history/heritage. I've asked you before to state clearly what this means, and also to quantify how much heritage is needed before something becomes part of your so-called 'own good culture'. So again; how many years is it before something originated and practised in England becomes 'English' and therefore part of the culture? Also again; what percentage of the population need to do something before it becomes part of the culture of the nation? If you can't answer these points directly, then your whole argument falls due to your inability to define the central concept of 'own good culture'. I look forward to a reply that doesn't refer to your websites; once again, I've read all of the xenophobic drivel contained there, and it categorically does not address these central questions.
Your answer?
Tim

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 09:57 AM

Hi Mandotim.
Absolutely agree with you, (apart from the "with respect" bit!)
More English songs.
Billericay Dickie and Plaistow Patricia....Ian Dury (def Brit)
Waterloo Sunset ...The Kinks (juries out on this one...dubious Napoleonic influences)
Jerusalem......(shurely shome mishtake, isn't that in Palestine?)
My Old Dutch.....(obvious European references here)
Goodness Gracious Me. Peter Sellers......(some asian content going on there methinks)

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Master Baiter
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 10:13 AM

WALKSABOUTVERSE---I have tried to help out here. I have enjoyed poking some fun at you from time to time but I have also quite clearly stated what you appear to be saying. People like Catspaw don't seem to get it but once again, here we go.

I believe this is what WAV is saying:

I think he's saying that he sees and believes in the value of any culture continuing to carry on past traditions. He also feels that folks deserve the right to a sovereign existence and to hold cultural values within a territorial area characterized by the groups own laws and customs. Wav maintained his cultural values while in Australia but is better back in England. He thinks it could be better yet. It takes but simple logic to see that for a people to survive as a distinct cultural group they must have their own land so that their own ways can be furthered to the exclusion of alternate ways of life within that specific geographic territory. The alternate ways need to exist in their own territories as well.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: melodeonboy
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 10:16 AM

Oh, dear! I see the "lynch mob" is still going strong on this thread!

Burn the heretic, that's what I say! Or throw him into the lake to see if he floats!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: mandotim
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 10:18 AM

The 'with respect' bit was ironic, Ralphie...I teach Masters students about the theoretical and historical origins of national and organisational cultures, and I can categorically state that WAV has never attended such a course. Like the list though! Lets add;
Strawberry Fields Forever (too fruity?)
Anarchy in the UK (bit political??)
The Five Bridges (anyone remember the Nice?)
The Rochdale Cowboy (oops; is Mike Harding too American?)
Funky Moped (strong vegetable influences)

There's lots for WAV to learn!
Tim

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 10:22 AM

It takes but simple logic to see that for a people to survive as a distinct cultural group they must have their own land so that their own ways can be furthered to the exclusion of alternate ways of life within that specific geographic territory.

Would you care to give any examples of this simple and straightforward process? I'll give you a few to get started: South Africa, Israel, Croatia, Serbia, Kosovo, Nagorno-Karabakh, South Ossetia...

Come to think of it, would you care to mention the most recent occasion when we in England engaged in the exclusion of alternate ways of life within our specific geographic territory? I can't think of anything much more recent than 1290, but maybe you can enlighten me.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 10:24 AM

As Spike Milligan once said.
"Ah What a lovely song.....German, German Overalls!"

Wasn't it Michael Flanders of Flanders and Swann fame?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 10:25 AM

Thanks, but....No thanks.
Whats all this about "Sovereign Existence?" My locality is filled with Poles (Who are very nice, and have introduced all kinds of food that I'd never heard of, and can't pronounce...Yum! And do all the nasty work that the Chavs of Britain refuse to do).
In the East End of London there is a Bangladeshi community(formerly Jewish) whose food is to die for. Which indeed a lot of them did in previous wars. Remember the Ghurkas?
"Distinct Cultural Group".....Please define.... Starting with the Romans. Oh, and the Huns, Jutes, Angles, Saxons, Gauls, Danes, Normans, etc. (BTW did you know that our Queen is German?)

I still ask the question.
Where did WAV get his degree in Englishness from?

Regards Ralphie

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 10:39 AM

Hi melodeon boy.
All WAV has to do is take his head out of the noose!!
Never did agree with hanging, but, If someone insists on going through the process....?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 10:42 AM

Oh and melodeon boy.
None of us asked him to stick his head in the noose in the first place. He did it all of his own choosing.
And yes GUEST Ed, 'twas indeed Flanders and Swann Apologies for misrepresentation.

All Together Now

The English, The English, The English are best.
I Wouldn't give Tuppence for all of the rest.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 12:52 PM

I can answer a couple of these questions (re: floating and study) in the one poem cum song (adding only that I completed my BA in Humanities, Ralphie, at Adelaide Uni.); the others I've answered above.

Poem 5 of 230: STATE TO STATE

From Sydney Town,
    In uni. break,
I drove out west
    To earnings make
Onion picking
    On the fields
Of Echuca
    That year's yields.

                                  After day's work,
                                     From Y.H.A.,
                                  A group of us
                                     Would not delay
                                  To walk on down
                                     To the dirt rim
                                  Of the Murray
                                     For a cool swim.

On one such day,
    I do declare,
Some three of us
    Had a big dare
To swim across,
    From state to state,
The wide Murray -
    I took the bait.

                                  Yes, foolishly,
                                     I took the bait -
                                  A choice that I
                                     Would come to hate,
                                  For I almost
                                     Did drown that date,
                                  Making the swim
                                     From state to state.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: s&r
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 02:40 PM

Just a quote from Adelaide's prospectus

Easy Enrolment, No Pre-requisites

Established in 1874, the University of Adelaide is committed to producing graduates recognised worldwide for their creativity, knowledge and skills as well as for their culture and tolerance.

So there you are then

Stu

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Don Firth (I get my computer back next week)
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 02:53 PM

Let me see if I've got this straight. One should not be allowed to sing English folk songs unless one has a degree in English Folk Music? [I wonder where all those people that Cecil J. Sharp and others collected from got their degrees.] And one should not be allowed to sing English folk songs if one has the improper accent—for example, Australian. . . ?

My my my. . . .

Don Firth

P. S. Oh! Another question occurs to me. If a person is from Yorkshire and speaks and sings with a Yorkshire accent, should he or she be allowed to sing songs from Cornwall?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 02:56 PM

..do you do the twist, Don?!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Don Firth (computer, etc.)
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 02:59 PM

How about THESE fellows?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Don Firth (computer, etc.)
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 03:05 PM

Twist? No. What's your point?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 03:28 PM

Don....
God NO!!!
Cornwall is a foreign country.
No true born Englishmen would dare to sing their songs.
(Doubly true of Muslims, Seikhs, Poles, Indians, Afro-Carribeans etc, etc.)
Woops, my mistake there. Obviously none of the above could possibly be English?......Or am I missing something here?

Oh and WAV a "BA in Humanities" eh? LOL.
Why not try demonstrating some humanity then?

Oh and Don. Thanks for the link to Flanders and Swann You Tube clip.
Shame they didn't add a verse about Australia.

Regrads Ralphie

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 03:42 PM

The first to adapt an electric guitar from an acoustic one was, as you may know, an American - but important developments were made in England and, yes, singing around one is another one of our fine ENGLISH traditions.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 03:54 PM

"Shame they didn't add a verse about Australia."
Australia wasn't worth a verse... =)

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 04:06 PM

Actually Volgadon.

The last verse of the F&S song would fit nicely (In a sporting way!)
To Quote

And, crossing the ocean, each nations the same.
They've simply no notion of playing the game.
They argue with umpires, they cheer when they've won.
And they practice beforehand, which ruins the fun!

Spoken...

It's not that they're wicked or naturally bad.
It's knowing they're foreign, that makes me SO MAD!!!!!

Regards Ralphie

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 06:33 AM

Dear Don, as detailed before on Mudcat, and on the site I just gave, there is a SCOTTISH folk degree in Glasgow, and an IRISH one in Limerick, but in Newcastle, England, it's a general degree in Folk and Traditional Music - there is no English folk degree.
And an English repat at least trying to sing in an earthy English accent is a far cry from born-and-bred English copying an American one, and an even further cry from The Beatles trying to speak in an American accent or English pensioners giggling at Morris dancing whilst tugging on their cowboy boots to go Line Dancing!

Poem 213 of 230: MORE AMOR PATRIAE

There is Tai Chi and there is tennis,
    Line is fine but so is Morris,
There is curry and there is the roast,
    And, when England is playing host,
It is the rest-of-the-world's good wish
    To sense culture that is English.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: mandotim
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 07:11 AM

WAV re my post of 17th September at 9.32 AM (Mudcat time); Are you ready to give a specific answer yet?
Re; Earthy English accent (above); which particular accent were you trying to imitate? Still sounds like Strine to me.I know of no regional accent or dialect in England called 'Earthy'.
Re; Tennis. Why do you hold up tennis as a part of English culture? as with pottage, most scholars of the game conclude that tennis was originally a French invention that spread to England via monasteries and the nobility between the 13th and 15th centuries. Tennis has generally been regarded as the preserve of the privileged classes through the ages, rather than a commonly practised part of the overall culture of England. This raises two points about your arguments;
1. If you are convinced that this imported game is now a part of English culture, then we can conclude that your answer to my question above will be (as a minimum) that cultural practices need to be older than 600 to 800 years before being assimilated. Is this so? What percentage of the population play tennis? Most authorities conclude that it is between 1 and 3%, so by your arguments again only 3% of the population need to practise a cultural artefact before you will accept it as part of the overall culture of the nation. True?
2. If your arguments about each nation practising its own culture and 'appreciating' but not practising cultures from elsewhere are followed through to their logical conclusion, then your identification of tennis as English would preclude other nations from playing (by your 'rules'). Extrapolate this to other sports with varying points of origin, and you would destroy the whole framework of international sport. Australians would not play cricket, nor would Indians, Pakistanis, Sri Lankans or West Indians. The Davis Cup would reside permanently at Wimbledon, as there would be no-one to play. Andy Murray should cease and desist from playing tennis, and take up shinty instead. English people would not play golf, as this is part of the Scots 'own good culture'. England would win the World Cup in Association Football and Rugby Union every four years without playing a single game. Only the Greeks would be allowed to enter the Olympic Games. Bear in mind I have only used your logic here WAV; do you still think that cultural segregation into nation states is a good idea?
Regards
Tim

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 07:11 AM

http://www.geocities.com/~beatleboy1/db1968.0605.beatles.html
Sounds like they were just goofing off, WAV, or is a sense of humour not part of OUR OWN GOOD CULTURE.

As I pointed out, curry is as much a part of English culture if not more, as it is of Indian.

As you say, line is FINE!!! You don't HAVE to dance, or even like, morris in order to be English.

Tai-chi is not a sport like tennis, which itself is a foreign import.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 07:12 AM

Oi WAV.

What on earth are you talking about now, for (insert deity here)'s sake??

Please, no more of what you laughingly call poetry.
Why do you wish to keep making such a fool of yourself?
Some sort of death wish?
English Martyrdom?

To quote
"There is Tai Chi and there is tennis
Line is fine but so is Morris"

Yes, .......And????
Your point being???

There's also the Lib-Dems, Sink estates, Credit Crunch, Global Warming, Porridge, (Woops thats Scottish.) I could go on, but whats the point.

Warm Woollen Mittens perhaps? (Rhymes with kittens, if my memory serves me right)
These are a few of my favourite things...
All together now...."Doe a dear a female dear....DOH"
(and from the same film...Tommorrow belongs to me)
Slightly Nazi? Shurely Not.

As for
"It is the rest-of-the world's good wish (Why the hyphens?)
To sense culture that is English"
With little or no respect. The rest of the world couldn't give a flying F**k about the English. Because Engaland as you understand it, doessn't exist.
It never has. Being English comes from within, not ridiculous stereotypes foisted upon us by very strange Australians.
I'm completely happy with my perception of being English.
Anyone who tries to define Englishness, obviously doesn't belong here.

ARE YOU HEARING ME?
Deal

with it.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 07:16 AM

WARNING

Be prepared for yet another piece of doggerel from our wierd Australian.

Give it 5 minutes.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 07:24 AM

Geeziz......Your poetry really sucks. Really. I mean that's not a personal attack or a joke or anything.....just a statement. Your poetry sucks.

Spaw

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 07:28 AM

Sorry WAV. Missed this gem!

"And an English repat at least trying to sing in an Earthy English Accent"

Please define "Earthy English Accent"
Name, Names. please....I'd really like to know of whom you speak?

Seth Lakeman? Bob Copper? June Tabor? Martyn Whyndham Read?
(names just plucked from the air, no offence intended, but, at least I know MWR, A UK born chap, who spent many years in Oz, and a true gent, both personally, and professionally who has done so much to link the connections between the UK and the US and Australia with his two Songlinks projects)

When you WAV produce the body of work that Martyn has produced over the last 3 decades, then I will take you seriously.

Until then, you are a figure of fun.
Don't blame us. You started it with your vision of "Perfidious Albion"

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 07:32 AM

Oh WAV.

Another one I missed...

The Beatles singing in an American accent??
Sounds like pure F**cking Scouse to me.
Think you've been away too long!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 07:36 AM

There are calisthenics and then there is golf,
    Fox-trot is hot but so is Saltarello,
There is mamaliga and there is the full continental breakfast,
    And, when Vermeer's native-land is playing host
It is the rest-of-the-world's good grace
    To sense culture that is based around lace.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 07:47 AM

Ah... The Voice of Reason in a Turbulant World.
Your words bring sweet balm to a troubled soul.
Thank You
I will make a quilt of your musings today, and sleep at rest tonight
My Friend, Bless you....
And may your Antipodean deity go with you!

As for you Mr Spaw (Guess you've never been called Mr before!)

How DARE you get involved in a purely UK/AUS spat!

(Actually, many thanks.)
I'm quite a nice bloke sometimes, but this idiot has pulled my chain, big time. Not proud of some of what I've written, but what he says is so WRONG.

Let's see what he comes up with next. Feel free to contribute!

Regards Ralpie

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Mr Happy
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 07:55 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merry_England

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 08:00 AM

Thanks Mr Happy....
But Why???
Ralphie

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Mr Happy
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 08:16 AM

Because this discourse seems rooted in the 'Ye Olde Englande' Golden Age of happy smock wearing peasants singing jolly folk songs & swigging cyder & mead as they danced their way to the green meadows to frolic in the haystacks with jiolly ploughboys & buxom wenches!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: mandotim
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 08:19 AM

Nice reference Mr Happy. I'm still waiting for an answer to my questions to WAV about culture and nation states though. WAV seems curiously quiet when asked a hard question, doesn't he? You can almost hear the cogs turning...
Tim

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 08:34 AM

Hey Mr Happy.
Sounds like my sort of gig!!
When and Where??

'Ye Olde Englande' Golden Age of happy smock wearing peasants singing jolly folk songs & swigging cyder & mead as they danced their way to the green meadows to frolic in the haystacks with jolly ploughboys & buxom wenches!
(Wot No Pottage?)

Ralphie

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 08:47 AM

Clank, clank, clonk, Tim - Real tennis is a French invention, and Lawn tennis is an English one; and, yes, some sports have, of course, become global, and I've enjoyed watching international competitions. But whether globalisation/Americanisation/capitalisation should continue unabated is another matter.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 09:29 AM

WAV.

JUST ANSWER THE QUESTIONS PUT TO YOU....

and the we can all go home...OK?

Out of here now.
You are such a sanctimonious Troll.
Would you quietly leave this place, taking your crap poetry with you.
Enough. Already.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 09:53 AM

Drop it, Ralphie - WAV doesn't do straight answers. I did once get a Yes (when I'd asked him, for about the third time, whether he thought England would have been a better place if there'd been much less immigration over the last 50 years). Even then it wasn't so much a 'Yes' as a "Yes inasmuch as fair trade UN questioning immigration and imperialism foreigners are great as I've said in my life's work how dare you call me a racist".

As far as WAV's concerned, all questions are trick questions: we're sneakily trying to trap him into defining what he believes in our terms, rather than letting him define it in his own terms (which involves writing lots of statements which may or may not be connected, and refusing to paraphrase any of them). Ultimately, I think he thinks we don't understand him - because if we did we'd agree with him.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: s&r
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 11:23 AM

Do you mean globalization, Americanization etc.?

Why use the later (French) import ise?

Stu

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Joe P at work somewhere else
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 11:41 AM

WAVs politics kind of reminds me of my friend trying to separate eggs, with his sledgehammer approach.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,baz parkes
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 12:00 PM

If we asked our morris dancing friends to post

Replies so fine and grand

As sure as butter slips off toast

We'd pass that five thousand

Pure poetry. And I'm very pleased with the Englishness of the butter and toast reference...but it might be Lurpack. Ah well...back to the rhymers dictionary for me....

Poetically yours
Baz

That first line doesn't quite scan...

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: mandotim
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 12:18 PM

Two forms of the same French game, you muppet; Lawn tennis developed from Real Tennis, as you well know; which means the ORIGINS of Lawn Tennis are French. Many other sports develop alternate forms, but share an origin; Rugby Union and Rugby League, for example. Now answer the question you are trying desperately to avoid; by your definitions, and taking the universally held view that sports are part of cultures, cultural separation of the kind you advocate means the inevitable end of international sporting competion, since only the country of origin could take part in a given sport. All other countries would be excluded, as said sport would not be part of their 'own good culture'. Is this what you are proposing? Or do you believe that it's ok for some things to be global? If so, you are arguing against yourself. Your principle of cultural separation has only ever been argued in absolute terms, and expressed aas a recommendation for the world to follow.

So, what's it to be, WAV; stick to your principle of cultural separation, and thus argue for the end of international sport, or drop the idea and admit that you hadn't really thought this through?
Tim

PS; properly maintained cogs don't make a clanking sound.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 01:56 PM

WAV, here is an Ukrainian band, Okean Elzy (Elza's Ocean). Do let me know if you think they sound American.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCIpbtHVmFw

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 02:38 PM

pip - you have a bad habit of using inverted commas such that some newbies to a thread may think they are quotes from me, when they are not.
Tim: you ignored my answer regarding what have become world sports, and globalisation/Americanisation/capitalisation. But on the latter, and in light of the present predicament of free-market capitalism:

"Within the broader music industry, and beyond, what some get for their hour's work, compared with others, is ridiculous and inhumane; hence, many relatively competent musicians within the folk-scene are really struggling to make ends meet; so, if we like fair competition, we don't like capitalism. A better way, as I've suggested in verse, is to accept that humans are competitive, and have strong regulations (partly via nationalisation) to make that competition as fair as possible – whilst also providing "safety-net" support" (from here).

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 02:49 PM

Of course, I didn't say or imply that WAV had actually written the words

"Yes inasmuch as fair trade UN questioning immigration and imperialism foreigners are great as I've said in my life's work how dare you call me a racist"

However, I'm happy to clarify that he didn't.

And now I really am giving up on trying to debate with a slippery deluded racist, and getting back to the real world (i.e. England).

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 02:55 PM

"Deluded racist" (Pip) is false and defamatory - I love our world being multicultural, have travelled through about 40 countries, studied anthropology, etc.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 02:58 PM

WAV, WAV, WAV, WAV!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



WAV, here is an Ukrainian band, Okean Elzy (Elza's Ocean). Do let me know if you think they sound American.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCIpbtHVmFw

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 03:10 PM

Interesting, Volgadon. To me, they have a characteristic Europop sound, like they could come from anywhere on the European continent. To me, all pop/rock performers from the European Continent sound like ABBA. They don't sound American or English to me at all.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 03:45 PM

"Deluded racist" (Pip) is false and defamatory - I love our world being multicultural, have travelled through about 40 countries, studied anthropology, etc.

Racism has got nothing to do with actively hating people from a different background or wanting to impose a single culture on the whole world; I don't accuse you of either of those things.

I've already explained, at great length, why I consider the views you've expounded here to be racist. Nothing you've written has made me change my mind.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Don Firth (computer STILL in the shop!)
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 03:46 PM

It is a major regret of mine that I have never been to England. Or Scotland (land of my ancestors), Ireland, or Wales. But through the auspices of the BBC and the American Public Broadcasting System, I have watched a great deal of very high quality television drama (along with many documentaries) produced in Great Britain. These have featured such eminent British actors as Jeremy Brett, Jeremy Irons, Geoffrey Palmer, Judi Dench, Derek Jacobi, Richard Briers, Susan Hampshire, and many, many more, in addition to older actors such as Lawrence Olivier, John Gielgud, Frank Middlemass, et al.

I have seen (and heard) English actresses portray characters from Eliza Doolittle and Nancy (in Oliver Twist) to Queen Elizabeth (I and II) and Queen Victoria, along with actors portraying all classes, from farmers and serfs up through the aristocracy, and several kings (Henry V, Henry VIII, Edward VII, etc.). Dramatizations of everything from The Pallisers (the aristocracy in Victorian England) to the various filmings of the works of Charles Dickens. Currently following The Inspector Lynley Mysteries and Foyle's War, and a couple of "Brit-coms" (The Good Life, As Time Goes By--and being a fan of word-play, one of the funniest schticks I've ever heard was in The Vicar of Dibley:   CLICKY).

Granted, most of the accents I've heard on television and in movies were put on by actors, but these were all excellent actors and masters of their craft, which includes being adept and convincing at doing various accents and dialects.

In addition, in my long and checkered life, I've met a fair number of English men and women in person, and worked with several. I went to university with an English girl (the lovely Phyllis Brooks), and I shared broadcasting duties with a young Englishman who was working hard to get rid of his English accent to fit in better in American broadcasting (I encouraged him to keep his accent because in the broadcasting milieu, it would be an individual characteristic and could be an asset to him).

I've heard a whole broad spectrum of English accents.

Which of this wide variety of accents are you striving to acquire, WAV?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 04:13 PM

Volgadon - I thought it sounded a lot like this, which isn't European (or is it?)

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 04:20 PM

WAV--- "'Deluded racist' (Pip) is false and defamatory - I love our world being multicultural, have travelled through about 40 countries, studied anthropology, etc."

LMAO......just blow me with that shit Wavydorf. The thing you love most is that "they" don't live next door to you! Give it up and just admit it Turkeynuts.....Go to a mirror and look at yourself while saying, "I'm a racist piece of crap." LOL.....You'll feel much better. Honesty to your own self relieves stress.

Spaw

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 04:40 PM

What I was trying to say is look beyond the superficialities, why, I could be more English than WAV, following his logic. I probably read more English books, listened to more English music and watched more English TV than he has...

Okean Elzy is interesting in that their melodies are based 19th and early 20th century Ukrainian folk songs, and the lyrics are very Ukrainian.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 05:20 PM

"drum kits, belted lyrics, electric and eclectic instruments...as I said above, those who do know must be more militant."

As opposed to good old pipe and tabor, a probable import from the Iberian Peninsula, or the cittern, a German instrument popular in the French court, and brought to England by Italian musicos playing European style tunes?

"...I know that English folk rarely gets a guernsey on the BBC these days, and, when it does, it's often anything but what our forebears did for centuries - e.g., not one song was sung unaccompanied during the 2 and a half hours of the "Cambridge Folk Festival" "highlights" last night."

And nobody wears wool underwear anymore either.

"(And, "with respect", IB, I have 4 technical certificates and a BA in humanities.)"

WAV, as a Christian, you might be interested in the following verse. Go ahead, look it up. Acts 4:13.

"1 and a half hours, sorry - before it was a programme on RVW - who DID respect his own good English cultural-heritage."

So, as long as the arrangement is a classical one, the use of non-English and non-traditional instruments is allowed? How is '5 Variations on Dives and Lazarus', or 'Fantasia on Greensleeves' any different to the Imagined Village in concept?

"I did listen to a bit from the Imagined Village the other night, Gervase, and, rather than "implode in a messy splutter of outrage" said I didn't like it...I'd rather imagine being in a proper English village, with traditional English music being played in a traditional English pub,...a glass of mead in hand, a clog dancer by my side, and a plate of stottie and chips on the table; and, out the window, a weeping willow licking a river's flow, as snow falls gently on a bevy of swans...
And, as for horses, J from K, I'd rather see them running free in a field..."

I didn't liked Imgained Village much, but that's because I think the arrangements didn't turn out as well as they could have. LOVE the concept.
Mead is just as Russian as it is English, in fact, it was a large part of any ancient Slavic feast.
Stotties are quite similar to thick breads found in places such as North Africa, Turkey and Georgia. A very primitive sort is baked by Bedouins in small ash pits. Chips, an import, and when someone says chips, my first thought is of Belgium, rather than England.
What happens if the traditional pub isn't built over a river, no swans reside in the area, and nobody has planted the weeping willow, a late import to England? And if the clog dancer is by your side, doesn't that mean that she can't practice her own good culture, because she is cavorting with you?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 05:28 PM

Volgadon - whatever the melody, that's Ukrainian, I think, words sung and backed in an American pop/rock style. Also, that chap has one of the pokiest backhands I've ever seen!; and, further, as I've said in my myspace blog, I don't like females playing tennis as it puts too much strain on the racket-arm...I hasten to add, mind, that I'd have no problem with the next Archbishop of Canterbury being a female.
And, as for accents, Don, as a repat, I've listened carefully to Geordie athletics commentary, and a recording of a NE chap reading a poem. However, I accept that mine is not presently a northern English accent but a mixed one...I learnt to talk with a Lancashire accent, I Australianised to some extent, and, home for over a decade now, it's gone back a bit toward northern English.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 05:53 PM

WAV in excelsis:

I don't like females playing tennis as it puts too much strain on the racket-arm... I hasten to add, mind, that I'd have no problem with the next Archbishop of Canterbury being a female.

Rough translation: "I would like thousands of people to stop doing something they enjoy, and thousands of other people to change their minds about a subject that matters deeply to them, because I say so. I know that neither of these things is going to happen, and expressing these opinions is going to have absolutely no effect on the real world. I want as many people as possible to hear them anyway, because I like starting pointless arguments and drawing attention to myself."

How come this thread's still above the line, by the way?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: mandotim
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 05:54 PM

I didn't ignore your answer; but you still haven't answered my question. You offered an answer to an entirely different question, about global capitalism; I asked a question about cultural separation. I'm sure your University tutors advised you to read questions carefully WAV; perhaps you should go back and read my question again before spouting more rubbish. Take this as formative feedback.
Try again, but while you're thinking about it, here's another one; what physiological, neurological or anatomical evidence do you have for your incredibly patronising view that women should not play tennis because it places too much strain on the racket arm? You've offered an opinion, but fail to substantiate it with either evidence or case histories. Can you prove that women are more prone to arm strain than men from playing tennis? If not, we can put your opinion in the box marked 'patronising sexist crap'.
You play tennis, don't you? Judging by your photos, you're a bit of a weed. I bet either of the Williams sisters could break you in half without breaking sweat. (There's a few people around here would give good money to see that!). Given that they are undoubtedly much stronger than you, and they are female, (and therefore not strong enough to play) your logic suggests that you should give up tennis immediately to protect your raquet arm from further strain and damage. Logical sequences are a bugger, aren't they WAV?

I remain in vain hope of an intelligent reply
Tim

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Don Firth (computer, etc.)
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 05:59 PM

"I don't like females playing tennis. . . ."

When I think of the long list of female tennis players (including Billie Jean King who ate Bobby Riggs alive back in 1973), I find that this statement boggles the mind.

And then, of course, there is figure skating: hard on the knees. Both of my sisters were champion figure skaters, and from time to time they found that their knees were sore after a long practice session working on jumps.

And then, of course, there is ballet dancing: very hard on the ankles, and many ballerinas have developed micro-fractures in their lower legs. . . .

Poor fragile females. They should be packed in cotton and not allowed to move, lest they injure themselves

(My first fencing teacher was a woman. Small build, quite feminine, but she could walk through doors without having to bother to open them.)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 08:28 PM

Actualy, WAV, if you listen carefuly, you will find that the phrasing and delivery is very Ukrainian, and very clearly drawn from their tradition. Listen to Ukrainian romances of the early 1900s. Yes, Vakarchuk does sing a bit faster than was the norm, but he wasn't living in 1920 either. If we had a time machine, I'm sure any of the great singers of the 20s and 30s would be able to recognise the traditional elements. After all, they themselves brought the traditions forward in their own days.
The video is, of course, silly. Vakarchuk doesn't take himself too seriously. I thought you would be more distressed by the wanton destruction of tennis rackets than by the girl with the weird eyes, honestly.



This one is a cover of an Ivasyuk song. Volodimyr Ivasyuk, for those not in the know, was a very talented violinist and composer, who composed dozens of songs in the 60s and 70s. Some of them are very much pop songs of their time, others, like Chervona Ruta, almost sound like folksongs and are an important part of Ukrainian culture.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2QlH5pfhss

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 08:30 PM

"I don't like females playing tennis as it puts too much strain on the racket-arm...I hasten to add, mind, that I'd have no problem with the next Archbishop of Canterbury being a female."

As long as she doesn't play tennis.......

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 08:58 PM

"You want a bonny clog dancer by your side sipping mead whilst watching swans gliding on the willow licked waters of The Ouse Burn? Trust me, self-publishing contentious & entirely subjective polemic ne'er won fair lady.:"

It worked on NADEZHDA KRUPSKAYA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,ruth on her cookieless iPhone
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 03:56 AM

wavey, why don't you simply agree to live by this arbitrary set of rules you've invented, and let everyone else live the way they want to? Why is it that you think you have the right to tell others how to live their lives, especially when you have had so little real life experience of your own? Despite your celebrated travel and shoestrings, you've not been married, you've not had children, but you will dictate to others who have done thesethings about how they should live. You tell people who have lived in England all their lives how they should define their own identity. You are no musician (picking out painful melodies on a plastic recorder does not make a musician) yet you tell people who have been playing for 20 or30 years what and how they ought to be playing.

Tellya what. Just lead by example. Keep living on Barbara Allen and pottage. If your life is that inspirational, no doubt your acolytes will find you.

By the way, past generations didn't choose to eatpottages. They didn't have a choice. They ate meat whenever they could get it. So why not getout there and bag a hare for tea.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 04:04 AM

Having been away from my 'puter for the last day, I have to say that this thread is getting funnier by the minute.

Blimey, Female Tennis Players??
Come on WAV, what's your next great vision?

What's next?

Banning foreign fruit perhaps?
Oh Please WAV, don't stop now. I want to really understand the full extent of your prejudices. (sorry, that should read meaningful insights on the human condition)
This has been the funniest and (tangentially) one of the most interesting threads in ages.
Let's here it for WAV.......Hip, Hip.......

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Snuffy
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 04:10 AM

From France we do get brandy, from Jamaica comes rum,
Sweet oranges and lemons from Portugal come;

Send 'em all back where they belong, I say.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: mandotim
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 04:23 AM

I'll stick a 'hooray' in there Ralphie! The more bizarre the views expressed, the more ridiculous our racist and now sexist friend appears. Have you noticed he's getting even less keen to answer questions? Do you think the hopelessness of his political manifesto is starting to dawn...?
Tim (still waiting for answers to my questions about cultural separation and the evidence for women not playing tennis...)

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 04:30 AM

I said the prayer which I prefer to attribute to Sinead O'Connor (though it's actually much, much older and actually paraphrases Cicero) on this thread long ago:

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference

WAV's a deluded racist nutter though relatively harmless in the scale of iniquitous tripe spouted on this forum. The really dangerous racists crawl out in the run-up to 23 April in the name of "patriotism". Far more insidiously dangerous is the undercurrent of sexism and trivialisation of women musicians currently surfacing on the Winterset thread (not to mention tennis players) and the pervading cabal of those (usually the same ones) who whinge that any old out-of-tune, poorly performed dross is "good enough for f*lk" and anyone can do it. It isn't and they can't.

You cannot change the reality that WAV-like loonies are on the loose. It's called "care in the community". But you can (and must) change patronising and derogatory attitudes towards women (and everyone else who is not a white English bloke) as well as and ill-considered and demeaning views of trad music, because both are essential elements of what being part of England today actually is.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: mandotim
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 04:37 AM

Hear, hear Diane; well said. As an aside, I always thought that particular prayer was attributed to St Augustine, but that could be just my Catholic forebears nicking a good lyric...
Regards
Tim

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 04:56 AM

It's the Christians I feel sorry for. If they're right, they're going to be spending eternity with WAV!

Of course Christianity is demonstrably non-English and was historically proactively anti "English culture" and the Roman version Augustine brought was also anti the local "British" cultural version of Christianity. St. Augustine of course came from Rome and so according to WAV should never have been let in in the first place.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 04:56 AM

No No No gentle readers.
Please Oh Great WAV.
Tell us more of the truths that have been handed down to you from "Olde Englande" (Or should that read Australia?)
Please Oh Great One.
You are so obviously the Way, the Light, and the Truth.
My knee is bended, and my loins are girded in expectation....

(Have you got the message yet?.......No?.....Ho Hum, No change there then)

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 05:01 AM

St Augustine was a North African and a bit of a lad until converting to Catholicism later in life to please his mother. He was a true advocate of multiculturism and religious toleration and in thus revered in many faiths. On the other hand, WAV seems to have been heavily influenced by narrow Calvinism.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 05:29 AM

From: Diane Easby
St Augustine was a North African and a bit of a lad until converting to Catholicism later in life to please his mother. He was a true advocate of multiculturism and religious toleration and in thus revered in many faiths.

Different Augustine I think

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 05:43 AM

Different, in that I think you mean the Emperor Augustus.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: mandotim
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 06:13 AM

My fault; the quote wasn't attributed to Augustine of Hippo, or to Augustus; the best I could find was Reinhold Neibuhr, theologian, 1934, and I suspect he had it from Cicero as Diane suggests.
Tim

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 07:33 AM

Why is it that a thread dedicated to rescuing our tradarts from the twin evils of fascism and mediocrity (not that I for one moment suggest that this was the OP's intention)is kicked into the basement when another, about talking bollocks around a kitchen table, is allowed to meander on upstairs to close on 2,000 posts about (apparently, though I haven't read it), sod all?

Keeping our music out of the clutches of racists and fascists and those who just don't care OUGHT to be our prime concern. Should be, but isn't as far as some are concerned.

Re: the prayer (possibly) of St Augustine. Sinéad O'Connor recites this as the intro to Feels So Different. I vaguely recall that the liner notes attribute it to a saint but I can't remember which.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 07:41 AM

I suggested BSing this thread - it hasn't been a music thread for some time, if it ever was.

Re the prayer, it seems to have been in oral circulation in the early C20, but hasn't been traced back any further (Wikipedia article here). If it could justifiably be attributed to anyone with a St before their name, I think we'd have known about it by now.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 07:45 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_hippo#Influential_quotations_from_Augustine.27s_writings

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: peregrina
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 08:00 AM

Augustine of Canterbury, sent from Rome by Gregory the Great, and Augustine of Hippo are different Augustines...

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 08:11 AM

The prayer is a favourite of 12-steppers everywhere, which is probably how Sinead first encountered it...

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 08:22 AM

Shouldn't naff stuff about saints, popes and Roman emperors be in aforementioned, musically irrelevant small talk thread (which should be down here, if anywhere), while vitally important issues such as the future direction of the tradarts and their salvation from also aforementioned evil threats be reinstated the main forum where they belong? It isn't just the hapless WAV who spouts these appallingly inhumanitarian, illiberal views and try to hijack trad music to reinforce their vile, pseudo-nationalistic arguments. There are others who do it far more convincingly (to some) and they need countering. Constantly.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 08:27 AM

Is 12-stepping a kind of traditional dance? Are we back to the 2012 opening ceremony? And is it English?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 09:01 AM

"what physiological, neurological or anatomical evidence do you have for your incredibly patronising view that women should not play tennis because it places too much strain on the racket arm? You've offered an opinion, but fail to substantiate it with either evidence or case histories. Can you prove that women are more prone to arm strain than men from playing tennis? If not, we can put your opinion in the box marked 'patronising sexist crap'.
You play tennis, don't you? Judging by your photos, you're a bit of a weed. I bet either of the Williams sisters could break you in half without breaking sweat. (There's a few people around here would give good money to see that!). Given that they are undoubtedly much stronger than you, and they are female, (and therefore not strong enough to play) your logic suggests that you should give up tennis immediately to protect your raquet arm from further strain and damage." (Mando "formative feedback" Tim) - strapping, injuries, bulged veins, etc...and, yes, the top females probably would beat me, the "weed" (Tim), just an A-grade junior, weighing-in as a middle-weight, in boxing terms, at 74kg, with my clubfoot and slow pace around the court - but that does NOT alter my above argument. Let me put it this way, if and when I'm working as a production manager, I'd have no problem being under a reasonable female MD (note no !) BUT, on the shopfloor, if I saw (pardon the poetry), a lady about to lift a 25kg bag of raw material, I'd stop her and do it myself.

"And then, of course, there is ballet dancing: very hard on the ankles, and many ballerinas have developed micro-fractures in their lower legs" (Don)...

Poem 192 of 230: A SECOND BALLET - WINTER 2001/2

"Swan Lake," at a House overseas;
    "The Nutcracker," in Sunderland:
Two poetic-motion stories -
    That leave on limbs, though, a strong brand..?

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Ruth!! yes, I'm single but have been married, without having children.

To Snuffy and Ralphie - fair-trade is very much a part of the WAV way, remember.

Tim again: there's job searching, tunes to work-out and memorise, and Lawn tennis on the tv - BBC, Davis Cup; and, Diane, NEWS, which involves "experts" suddenly talking about the kind of REGULATIONISM that I've been advocating for years - yes, I try and keep my sense of humour through the barrage, but you're the one deluding yourself, frankly.

"It's the Christians I feel sorry for. If they're right, they're going to be spending eternity with WAV!

Of course Christianity is demonstrably non-English and was historically proactively anti "English culture" and the Roman version Augustine brought was also anti the local "British" cultural version of Christianity. St. Augustine of course came from Rome and so according to WAV should never have been let in in the first place." (woody)...

Poem 219 of 230: FURTHER ANTI-IMPERIALISM

Let each Christian nation have its own Church -
Equal, before God, with the others' Search.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Now, back to the second rubber, brethren, if I may...

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: mandotim
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 09:32 AM

Still waiting for an answer WAV; if you can draw yourself away from watching Austrians failing to practise their 'own good culture' on the TV for a while, please re-read my question about cultural separation and the effect of your ideas on international sport.

With respect to my second question, I didn't say that the Williams sisters would beat you at tennis; I said they were stronger than you; your argument seems to be that no women are strong enough to play tennis without too much strain on the racquet arm; by that logic, you are therefore not strong enough to play tennis, as you are not as strong as a specific woman. The usual argument about logical fallacy does not hold here, as you failed to distinguish between the general and the specific when referring to women playing tennis. You still haven't produced any evidence to support this assertion, merely listed some injuries suffered by both men and women from playing tennis. The salient point here is whether there is a difference in seriousness or frequency of strain injuries in tennis according to gender, and this has not been demonstrated by you. Can you point me to a randomised, controlled trial (peer reviewed of course)where this has been shown to be the case?

With reference to your hypothetical female employee lifting 25kg; this has nothing to do with the question; you raised the specific question of women playing tennis, and I am challenging you to substantiate what many people feel to be a false and offensive statement. So far, you have not done so.

Go away and do your homework, please. Better still, just go away.
Tim

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 09:42 AM

"strapping, injuries, bulged veins, etc...and, yes, the top females probably would beat me, the "weed" (Tim), just an A-grade junior, weighing-in as a middle-weight, in boxing terms, at 74kg, with my clubfoot and slow pace around the court - but that does NOT alter my above argument. Let me put it this way, if and when I'm working as a production manager, I'd have no problem being under a reasonable female MD (note no !) BUT, on the shopfloor, if I saw (pardon the poetry), a lady about to lift a 25kg bag of raw material, I'd stop her and do it myself."

I would too, but that's just because I like to help. Doesn't mean they can't play tennis. Besides, any professional sportsman sustains injuries.

"Let each Christian nation have its own Church -
Equal, before God, with the others' Search."

Sure, that makes sense if you view churches as a nationalistic institution, but are they?

"Tim again: there's job searching, tunes to work-out and memorise, and Lawn tennis on the tv - BBC, Davis Cup; and, Diane, NEWS, which involves "experts" suddenly talking about the kind of REGULATIONISM that I've been advocating for years - yes, I try and keep my sense of humour through the barrage, but you're the one deluding yourself, frankly."

Experts? Opinionated blowhards, more like.
Would you please go into greater detail about what YOU mean by regulationism (strange term)?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 10:01 AM

Let each Christian nation have its own Church

So cultural imports are fine as long as when they arrive they say that they're English?

Christianity comes from the middle-east and was shaped as the state religion of the Roman empire. The Anglo-Saxons were converted to Christianity by Roman & Frankish preachers who advocated them abandoning their own cultural identity in favour of Romano-Greco cultural imperialism.

each Christian nation

So is England a Christian nation? Is this why you mention English hymns? This means that to be English you have to be Christian? And what about all our traditions which are considered "pagan"?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: mandotim
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 11:43 AM

WAV, in the second rubber of the Davis Cup, did you notice that the player who won was a Scot, playing what you deem to be an English game? Not part of his 'own good culture at all, was it? Did you cheer when he won, and if so, why?
Tim

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 11:46 AM

And what about all our traditions which are considered "pagan"?

Just like to jump in at this point and say that considered is more a matter of misguided wishful thinking in the manner of Frazerian folkloric wishfulness. A load of utter bollocks in other words; no traditions are seriously considered to be pagan.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 12:09 PM

Hi IB - by "considered Pagan" I'm referring to those traditions that seem considered "non-Christian" or "anti-Christian". For instance there is a strong movement among many Christians in this area against Halloween.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 12:21 PM

That's, um, the eve of All Hallows, aka All Saints' Day. It's about as pagan as Easter.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: mandotim
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 12:32 PM

Er; wasn't Halloween originally Samhain?
Tim

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 12:43 PM

Tim: it's better for females to play table tennis: a game primarily of reflex and skill at which they can be very good - without having to grind away their femininity. And I hope and pray that one day Andy plays Davis Cup tennis against the likes of England - as suggested, I hate imperialism. Hence, also, the above poem, which suggests my opinion that both the imperialistic Anglican and Roman Catholic movements should be replaced by a Church of England, a Church of Italy, a Church of Wales, etc.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 12:46 PM

But Easter is ever so pagan. It's about eggs and pacing them down hills (Fr. Pâques = Easter) and that bit about Roman methods of capital punishment for religious agitators was just added on, as was the story of said agitator's birth added onto Yule. Religious stories and folklore have been intermingled since the Middle Ages. The overlay of consumerism began to be established only in the Victorian era when German royals started a destructive timber trade and somebody started fattening geese and then turkeys.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 12:49 PM

Tim - that's one of those bits of 'folklore' IB referred to.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 12:51 PM

Women can retrieve their ground away femininity by a game of ping pong?
Jesus Christ . . . ah yes, that's what that religious agitator was called.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: mandotim
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 01:28 PM

Still waiting for two answers WAV; as you are not as strong as a specific woman (say, Serena williams), who in turn is not strong enough to play tennis (according to you), will you be giving up tennis in order to follow your own precepts? Or is it to do with something other than strength? I notice you've now introduced the concept of femininity into the discussion. Perhaps you would like to tell us what you understand by the term 'femininity', so we can discuss this latest assertion from a congruent standpoint?

Also; my first question, which you seem unable to tackle, despite your higher education; are you in favour of cultural separation, despite it meaning (as demonstrated through use of your own logic) the end of international sporting competition?

More in hope than anticipation
Tim

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: mandotim
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 01:31 PM

Pip R; yes, I know; it sits along with such things as dwile flunking as far as I'm concerned. I'm not saying it's ancient, I'm just saying it is also claimed by a non-Christian belief system, however recent. Good thread drift though, eh?
Tim

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 01:31 PM

Er; wasn't Halloween originally Samhain?

Samhain is simply the Gaelic name for November; it's currency with respect to paganism is wobbly to say the least. So much of this folklorism was the work of aristocratic antiquaries, romantics & other diverse bourgeois fantastists with a particular axe to grind, so consequently trying to get any sort of handle on it is damn near impossible, especially taking into account the equally wilful obfuscations of neo-pagans too.

The paganisation of folklore is the result of the self-same Victorian paternalism that justified the evils of colonialism. It's there in the cultural condescension that would interpret any given folk custom as being somehow vestigial of something now long forgotten. For example, when the thoroughly aristocratic Lady Raglan first called her medieval ecclesiastical foliate head a 'Green Man', she did so fully in the faith that the Jacks-in-the-Green etc. were survivals of pagan fertility rites quaintly perpetuated by an ignorant lower order of society unwittingly preserving as mere superstition an ancient belief system that they themselves couldn't possibly understand, either in terms of its 'true' provenance or else its 'real' meaning.*

But Easter is ever so pagan.

Named after an Anglo-Saxon hare-goddess & celebrated on the first Sunday after the first full-moon after the Spring Equinox indeed! However, to call Easter one of our traditions is perhaps stretching the point. The entrenched, complex, highly organised and regimented theology of the 2000-year-old Roman Catholic Church is hardly a matter of folklore or tradition.

* A paraphrasing from here. Bloody hell - how Wav-like is that, eh? Quoting my own rhetoric & referencing via a link to my own website! But I've had a very busy day & I'm absolutely done in.

To make up for it, here's a picture of the lovely Abigail sitting so beautifully in the waters of The Wyre yesterday afternoon:

Abigail

I'm off to watch In The Night Garden, the only programme on TV right now that makes any sort of sense to me.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,VOlgadon
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 02:00 PM

"That's, um, the eve of All Hallows, aka All Saints' Day. It's about as pagan as Easter."

[Blackadder has tied up Captain Darling and is grilling him as if he were a German spy.]
Darling: Look, I'm as British as Queen Victoria!
Blackadder: So, your father's German, you're half-German, and you married a German?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 02:12 PM

But Easter is ever so pagan.

Yes and no. You can find something pagan behind or underneath it if you dig deep enough, as you can (perhaps) with Guy Fawkes' Night (never heard of a Halloween bonfire). But it's been Christian, as has All Hallows' Eve, for a very long time - far too long for any of the pagan content to have survived in any meaningful sense.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 02:16 PM

Re: women tennis players

From The Telegraph, 18 Jun 2007:

"The British number one looks on form, hitting the ball with ease and accuracy under the coach's watchful eye. This, however, is not a fiery 6 ft. 2 in. Scot, but a 5 ft. 9 in., softly spoken girl from Hackney.

"With Andy Murray's wrist injury [emphasis mine – DF] making him doubtful for Wimbledon this year, British support next week will turn to Anne Keothavong, this country's top woman player, who plays tomorrow at the International Women's Open in Eastbourne."

I'm not familiar with this young lady's background, but it might be interesting to note that, judging from both her surname and her appearance, she's either an immigrant or the descendant of immigrants. I doubt that Keothavong is a common name in Yorkshire or Suffolk. . . .   Her coach, by the way, is Australian.

But then, women are so incredibly delicate, and they must be protected. Take, for example, the delicate arms on this fragile young thing.

On the other hand, I sure as heck wouldn't try to tell this young lady what she should and shouldn't be allowed to do!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 02:17 PM

OK - forget the word pagan and get back to the point.

WAV -

What you have said about other cultures when applied to Christianity either implies....

Christianity does not originate in England - result of foreign cultural imperialism - hence by your definition not allowed

..or..

Christianity does not originate in England - result of foreign cultural imperialism - must become Anglicized to be allowed


If the former, then your being a practising Christian is a culturally corrupting influence and you should leave the country or abandon your beliefs to avoid spreading your foreign culture.

From what you say about a non-imperial Church of England it seems you are saying the latter applies. If so then logically anybody can come into the country with whatever culture as long as they adapt it to an Anglicized version. Given that the church defines its how it acts, those coming in would decide what qualified as an Anglicized version of their culture.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 02:19 PM

Ah yes, of course, how silly of me.
I'd forgotten all about Asda selling those chocolate eggs - to celebrate the birthday of Jesus as they helpfully explained.
And they're on sale early enough to give to kids trick or treating on that religious festival on 31 October . . .

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 02:27 PM

"Hence, also, the above poem, which suggests my opinion that both the imperialistic Anglican and Roman Catholic movements should be replaced by a Church of England, a Church of Italy, a Church of Wales, etc."

Then become an Eastern Orthodox sort of Christian.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 02:37 PM

I'm using 'pagan' to mean 'deriving from pre-Christian worship or belief'. Halloween isn't Christian any more, but there's no reason to think any part of it is pagan. As for those eggs, I don't think anyone knows when or how they were first associated with the Christian festival of Easter (wherever that word comes from). As I was saying, you can find the traces of where pagan beliefs used to be if you dig deep enough, but I don't think anything identifiably pagan has survived.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 02:42 PM

I don't want to over do the Christian thing but it's something that applies to Wav rather than something relating to some hypothetical foreigner, so hopefully his answer will be enlightening.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: s&r
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 02:43 PM

Don I loved your first link - it's reassuring to know that this frail delicate female would have a knight in shining armour to handshould she ever try to lift 25kg

Stu

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 03:07 PM

"As for those eggs, I don't think anyone knows when or how they were first associated with the Christian festival of Easter (wherever that word comes from). As I was saying, you can find the traces of where pagan beliefs used to be if you dig deep enough, but I don't think anything identifiably pagan has survived."

They formed no part of Easter in the Levant until recently.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 05:32 PM

From http://www.mainlymorrisdancing.org.uk/ : Current estimates are that there are around 14,000 morris dancers in the UK.

No point, just nice to know.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 07:49 PM

talking bollocks around a kitchen table

That's something I'd much rather do than write about...

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 01:02 AM

So Wavybigotdude...............What the fuck does "grind away at their femininity" mean?   Why do I get the idea that's your code for "muscular athletic woman is, Church of England God forbid, a lesbian."

You really are an ass aren't you? You're transparent in voicing your bigoted and racist beliefs and the pathetic excuse you have for a life's work makes it crystal clear that even bad poetry cannot mask rotted ideas.   Please know this is not an attack, just a statement that summarizes your postings as folks here see them. And let's not delude ourselves that I wouldn't dare say this to you in a face to face, 3D situation. I'd love to! Might even follow up with a fun kick to your dessicated nuts. Actually I know some nice women who would be overjoyed to do it for me......or rather for themselves!

Why not take your pathetic self off to a nice Aryan Nation website where you'll get rave reviews I'm sure. That's really the Nation you belong to isn't it?

Spaw

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 10:32 AM

It's better if the land, the culture, the law of the land, etc. are linked, and the above "Further Anti-Imperialism" relates to that.

Nice logs, Don!

"From http://www.mainlymorrisdancing.org.uk/ : Current estimates are that there are around 14,000 morris dancers in the UK.

No point, just nice to know." (IB)...I agree, and God's speed to them.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: mandotim
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 10:53 AM

Still waiting for answers....Please enlighten us WAV; I've asked you three relatively simple questions, and you haven't answered any of them. Why is this? Didn't you understand the questions? I would have thought a man with three technical certificates wiould have found the task straightforward enough. So; answers please!
Tim

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 11:03 AM

Tell ya' what Tim, his beliefs don't allow straight answers. See, Wavy's mama taught him that if he gave a straight and truthful answer his bellybutton would come undone and his ass would fall off.

Actually, that's just a joke. I'm not sure his mother had any children that lived.

Spaw

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 12:20 PM

Get your posterior back to your kitty litter, Catspaw.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: s&r
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 12:26 PM

What were the subjects of your technical certificates WAV?

Stu

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Snuffy
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 01:06 PM

Eggs at Easter are specifically a product of Christian doctrine:

• Eggs were classified by the church as meat
  
• So you weren't allowed to use them in Lent
  
• But the hens kept on laying.
  
• People didn't want to waste food by throwing it away
  
• So they hard-boiled the eggs so they'd keep till after Easter
  
• But there were always more eggs than anyone could resonably eat,
• So they gave them to the kids to play with
  

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 02:04 PM

Stu - from IT to fork-lift licence to manufacturing technologies.
Snuffy - I vaguely remember watching a documentary, for which Maddy Prior may have done the backing music, that argued how bird's eggs in fields were believed to be hare's eggs and symbols of (seasonal) rebirth...hence, eventually, the Easter bunny and eggs.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 05:40 PM

LMAO........One of your precious degrees you go on and on about is a forklift license?    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA................Gimmee a fockin' break!!!

I bet you were damn good moving around those concrete products since you're a real mortar forker...........

All Hail THE GREAT WAVYDOODLYSQUAT....Knower of all things and master of the world because he can drive a forklift..........ROTFLMAO

Is it true your parents left you in the woods for the skunks to raise and the skunks returned you saying you were a disgrace to their kind and you smelled really awful?

Thanks for the laugh......almost as funny as your "Life's Work" is bad!


Spaw

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 06:16 PM

I agree, and God's speed to them

Percentage of English population who are Morris Dancers: 0.028%

fork-lift licence

Kudos.

bird's eggs in fields were believed to be hare's eggs and symbols of (seasonal) rebirth...hence, eventually, the Easter bunny and eggs

And the nursery rhyme Ring-a-Roses is about the Black Death, right?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 06:17 PM

Gee! I sang some and participated in a workshop at the last Northwest Forklift Festival. . . .

Oh, no! Sorry! That was the Northwest Folklife Festival!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Dandy in Aspic
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 05:27 AM

Saw my old friend doing a great display of Morris dancing in Manchester on the BBC this morning.


Dandy in Aspic

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 07:35 AM

Does he drive a forklift by any chance? I mean that's the real test here. You are nothing if you can't drive a forklift........And so many great folkie song about forklift operators.......

Wavydork Henry, Forklift Drivin' Man
Wreck of the Old #197 Forklift
A Mighty Forklift Is My God
Michael, Drive the Forklift Off the Dock
Seven Spanish Forklifts
Twa Forklifts
Tramps and Forklifts

Gee, I hope all of these are in the English tradition........

Spaw

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 08:55 AM

"Does he drive a forklift by any chance? I mean that's the real test here. You are nothing if you can't drive a forklift........And so many great folkie song about forklift operators.......

Wavydork Henry, Forklift Drivin' Man
Wreck of the Old #197 Forklift
A Mighty Forklift Is My God
Michael, Drive the Forklift Off the Dock
Seven Spanish Forklifts
Twa Forklifts
Tramps and Forklifts
LMAO........One of your precious degrees you go on and on about is a forklift license?    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA................Gimmee a fockin' break!!!

I bet you were damn good moving around those concrete products since you're a real mortar forker...........

All Hail THE GREAT WAVYDOODLYSQUAT....Knower of all things and master of the world because he can drive a forklift" (Spaw)...When you've finished!, if a production manager's fork-lift driver is not available, it IS good to be able to drive one, and I don't regret my decision to get a licence, or answer that question, frankly, as usual - whatever the "Kudos" (IB) and Don.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 09:40 AM

I don't regret my decision to get a licence, or answer that question, frankly, as usual

The question is whether you regret bragging about your 'technical certificates', e.g.

IB: With respect, WAV - you know fuck all.

WAV: (And, "with respect", IB, I have 4 technical certificates and a BA in humanities.)
(And with respect, WAV, I've got a Ph.D*... and I agree with IB.)

*Although I have to admit that I can't drive a forklift.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 09:45 AM

Nothing wrong at all with operating a forklift. Its the way you represent yourself that's the problem! And also your racist, bigoted, chauvinistic bullshit opinions.............

Spaw

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: mandotim
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 09:51 AM

That's it; the final proof of the totally delusional state of your mind WAV; ' I don't regret my decision to get a licence, or answer that question, frankly, as usual - whatever the "Kudos" (IB) and Don.'
I've been waiting patiently for answers to a number of very straightforward questions, WAV, and I've reminded you several times on this and other threads. The principal objection that many people have to you on this forum (apart from the extremism, racism, sexism and cultural bigotry) is that you constantly seek to evade answering stions when they challenge your unsupported assertions. So; if your practice has now changed to one of frank answers; here are my questions again;

1. With respect, WAV, you haven't defined English Folk at all; you just state that you 'sing' it. You assert that it is something that originates in England, and imply that it has some kind of history/heritage. I've asked you before to state clearly what this means, and also to quantify how much heritage is needed before something becomes part of your so-called 'own good culture'. So again; how many years is it before something originated and practised in England becomes 'English' and therefore part of the culture? Also again; what percentage of the population need to do something before it becomes part of the culture of the nation? If you can't answer these points directly, then your whole argument falls due to your inability to define the central concept of 'own good culture'. I look forward to a reply that doesn't refer to your websites; once again, I've read all of the xenophobic drivel contained there, and it categorically does not address these central questions.
Your answer?
2.I've used your arguments here, WAV; mine would be different, and much closer to Guest Joe, above. Culture and nationality are not wholly interdependent, as any rational person knows; if this was the case, what would people with dual nationality be, culturally? No-one is born as a cultural being (when did you last see a new-born baby who could Morris dance or play the Cittern?), therefore place of birth has no bearing on what culture you are eventually socialised into, other than as an accident of geography. An example would be Colin Cowdrey, the famous English cricketer (later Baron Cowdrey of Tonbridge); a more 'English' man you would never meet; but he wasn't born in England, but in Ootacamund,India. He was educated in England, his parents were English and he lived all but a small period of his life in England. Would you argue that his own culture was Indian?
3.With respect to my second question, I didn't say that the Williams sisters would beat you at tennis; I said they were stronger than you; your argument seems to be that no women are strong enough to play tennis without too much strain on the racquet arm; by that logic, you are therefore not strong enough to play tennis, as you are not as strong as a specific woman. The usual argument about logical fallacy does not hold here, as you failed to distinguish between the general and the specific when referring to women playing tennis. You still haven't produced any evidence to support this assertion, merely listed some injuries suffered by both men and women from playing tennis. The salient point here is whether there is a difference in seriousness or frequency of strain injuries in tennis according to gender, and this has not been demonstrated by you. Can you point me to a randomised, controlled trial (peer reviewed of course)where this has been shown to be the case?
4.WAV, in the second rubber of the Davis Cup, did you notice that the player who won was a Scot, playing what you deem to be an English game? Not part of his 'own good culture at all, was it? Did you cheer when he won, and if so, why?
5. You say you're not the English Ghandi at this stage; does that mean you see yourself as the English Ghandi at some point in the future? Which of Ghandi's achievements do you see yourself emulating eventually? I'm interested, I'd like to know the extent of your delusional state.
6. Re; Earthy English accent (above); which particular accent were you trying to imitate? Still sounds like Strine to me.I know of no regional accent or dialect in England called 'Earthy'.
Re; Tennis. Why do you hold up tennis as a part of English culture? as with pottage, most scholars of the game conclude that tennis was originally a French invention that spread to England via monasteries and the nobility between the 13th and 15th centuries. Tennis has generally been regarded as the preserve of the privileged classes through the ages, rather than a commonly practised part of the overall culture of England. This raises two points about your arguments;
1. If you are convinced that this imported game is now a part of English culture, then we can conclude that your answer to my question above will be (as a minimum) that cultural practices need to be older than 600 to 800 years before being assimilated. Is this so? What percentage of the population play tennis? Most authorities conclude that it is between 1 and 3%, so by your arguments again only 3% of the population need to practise a cultural artefact before you will accept it as part of the overall culture of the nation. True?
2. If your arguments about each nation practising its own culture and 'appreciating' but not practising cultures from elsewhere are followed through to their logical conclusion, then your identification of tennis as English would preclude other nations from playing (by your 'rules'). Extrapolate this to other sports with varying points of origin, and you would destroy the whole framework of international sport. Australians would not play cricket, nor would Indians, Pakistanis, Sri Lankans or West Indians. The Davis Cup would reside permanently at Wimbledon, as there would be no-one to play. Andy Murray should cease and desist from playing tennis, and take up shinty instead. English people would not play golf, as this is part of the Scots 'own good culture'. England would win the World Cup in Association Football and Rugby Union every four years without playing a single game. Only the Greeks would be allowed to enter the Olympic Games. Bear in mind I have only used your logic here WAV; do you still think that cultural segregation into nation states is a good idea?

If your policy of complete evasion has really changed, frank answers would be very welcome.
Tim

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 09:51 AM

WAV, nothing wrong with a forklift licence, a good profession, but how much experience have you had, that's what really counts.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 02:09 PM

"And with respect, WAV, I've got a Ph.D*... and I agree with IB.)
*Although I have to admit that I can't drive a forklift."...but you could be a poet who doesn't know it, Doctor Pip.
Volgadon: in manufacuring I've gone from materials handler/operator to production/works manager, in both temporary and permanent posts, that add up to several varied years experience.
Tim - I'll get back to all that after the Antiques Roadshow, handwashing my clothes, the second episode of "Tess of the D'urbervilles" (there's a thread on this, by the way), etc.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 02:22 PM

Experience as a forklift driver?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 03:03 PM

Technical certificates.

Okay now, off the top of the head:   I have a Washington State Vehicle Operator's License (driver's license), a Federal Communications Commission First Class Radiotelephone Operator's license, and a Washington State Residential Weatherization Inspector's license. In addition, I have a membership in the Communications Workers of America and a membership in the American Federation of Radio and Television Artists. Two years in English Literature at the University of Washington, three years in Music also at the U. of W., and two years in Music at the Cornish School of the Arts in Seattle.

I do not have a Poetic License (I'm not sure how one applies for one), but that doesn't stop me from acting as if I had one. I don't know of any institution that offers a Prose License, so I practice writing prose without qualms.

I'm quite sure I left out many awards and certificates (and I haven't even mentioned trophies and medals for prowess in fencing [swordsmanship]).

I don't think that any of this qualifies me to pontificate on how the world should be run. But there, too, that doesn't stop me from doing so.

So—let the blithering continue unabated!

Don Firth

P. S. I do not have a certificate or license to operate a folklift, but when I was working as a Production Illustrator at the Boeing Airplane Company (yeah, I have a certificate as a draftsman and technical illustrator), whenever I went out into the shop or assembly line, I had to step lively to keep from getting run over or mashed against a wall by forklift operators who were either blind or had a total disregard for property damage and human life.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 03:16 PM

Operating a forklift is adventurous work.   CLICKY #1.

No, that's not really a joke.   CLICKY #2.

OOPS!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: s&r
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 05:44 PM

Just Googled fork lift truck courses

"5 Day Novice Course:
The 5 day course is designed for candidates with little or no previous experience of operating a forklift truck.

3 Day Novice Course:
The 3 day course is designed for an operator with some experience but who has no formal certification of training by a registered instructor.

Refresher Training:
1 day refresher training; the HSE recommend this every 3 years."

Not exactly rocket science..

Stu

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: s&r
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 05:48 PM

Just by the way - on the Antiques roadshow there was a very nice old banjo, smooth arm, made in Newcastle upon Tyne about a hundred years ago

Stu

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 06:24 AM

"P. S. I do not have a certificate or license to operate a folklift, but when I was working as a Production Illustrator at the Boeing Airplane Company (yeah, I have a certificate as a draftsman and technical illustrator), whenever I went out into the shop or assembly line, I had to step lively to keep from getting run over or mashed against a wall by forklift operators who were either blind or had a total disregard for property damage and human life." (Don)...maybe, as with some here, they hadn't bothered to get theirs.
"Just by the way - on the Antiques roadshow there was a very nice old banjo, smooth arm, made in Newcastle upon Tyne about a hundred years ago" (Stu)...noticed that...but never an English cittern on that programme.
Here are some of the factors that define English folk, in my opinion, for Tiger Tim (but I couldn't put a number on your other questions, under #1)...
A music of miners, farmers, fishermen, and other working folk, now performed by all sorts.
The simple repetition of a tune for telling and/or dancing.
English folk may be divided into two main branches - traditional/unknown author - handed down, mainly via oral tradition; and composer/known author of which there may be covers or self-penned pieces.
Songs and ballads, for the most part, sung unaccompanied, or, lately, lightly accompanied etc..
2. - no, I agree with you.
3. To me, the bulging veins that often accompany the bulging muscles, and the bandages on the arms of young top-female tennis players are not healthy. Table tennis IS a much better sport for females, or say non-contact netball as a team sport.
4. I've said that I accept that some sports, such as Lawn Tennis, have become global, and that I've enjoyed watching international competitions at them, and that I hope and pray Andy is soon playing for Scotland against the likes of England.
5. I agree with Gandhi on quite a lot (but it's true, as IB noted, that he could have shown more respect of ingigenous South Africans, while he was there. But, as you should know and accept, I only mentioned him as a way of saying I'm not presently a popular repat.
6. I accept that some are better than me with accents but, as a repat, I've made an effort to sing and speak in a northern English accent - you may note that I rarely if ever criticise quality on the folk scene but selection and choice, etc.
And finally, I've said just above, and way above, that I accept that some sports have become global but whether globalisation should continue unabated is another matter...it's what's best FROM NOW ON that I keep stressing.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: mandotim
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 06:36 AM

Who is Tiger Tim?
Tim

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 06:45 AM

"......but whether globalisation should continue unabated is another matter...it's what's best FROM NOW ON that I keep stressing."

In other words, segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever.

...........Gee......Didn't George Wallace say that?

Spaw

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: mandotim
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 07:04 AM

Nice, Spaw. I think you can add lots of South African politicians as well!
Tim

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 07:19 AM

Seeing as WAV has made the enourmous effort to come back to the land of his birth from the other side of the world. Surely, as caring, concerned Brits, we should assist him on the final (as yet, unfinished) part of his journey, and send him to Coventry!

(apologies to residents of Coventry!)

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 07:51 AM

Ooh, racism and sexism. Actually, this might offer a learning opportunity. Once more unto the OED, dear friends:

Sexism: prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex

Nobody's saying you hate women, WAV. Just that you believe that women should be prevented from doing certain things and encouraged to do certain others - all women, whatever any individual woman may want to do herself - because they're women. That's what's called sexism.

Similarly, nobody's saying you hate non-English people...

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 08:44 AM

Yes, WR, and although I certainly don't hate the Dutch and have indeed enjoyed a VISIT to The Netherlands/Holland, I chose to turn down a contract in Rotterdam, because I am not a Dutchman - BUT I should NOT have had that choice in the first place.
And, not that long ago, it WAS illegal for a female to run a marathon, e.g.
Through my life's work, it should be clear that, above all, I am a regulationist. "Liberty, as surfeit, is the father of much fast" (William Shakespeare, Measure for Measure).

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 08:49 AM

No, WAV. I'm a regulationist myself, if that means that not everyone should be allowed to do everything they want whenever they want. You believe in regulating people according to their sex and their nationality/culture. Your version of regulation is both sexist and racist.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 09:52 AM

SPOT THE DIFFERENCE COMPETITION

WAV
"Not that long ago it WAS illegal for women to run a Marathon"

ME
"Not that long ago it WAS illegal for women to have the vote"

No prizes. Just a bit of fun.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Joe P
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 10:52 AM

You turned down a contract abroad, instead opting for unemployment?

And if we dont know the author of a folk song, how do we know it is English? What about the songs of fishermen in India? By your rule they count as English fok songs!

What about music by groups such as Faustus? Certainly the accompaniament is far from light, yet it is considered by many to be traditional English folk music. How would you define such a group?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: s&r
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 11:19 AM

Read this WAV and weep. Learn a little bit about women, and a little bit about how to write compellingly.

Read, and weep for your lack of comprehension.

Stu

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 11:27 AM

Your "Life's Work" is a giant, festering, maggot-ridden, dung heap. Referring to it simply proves you're an ass and nothing else. I'm sure your mother is ashamed of you although she may be too busy scratching her ass and digging for grubs to tell you.

Best Regards,

Spaw

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: s&r
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 11:36 AM

PS and poetically.

Stu

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 12:57 PM

"SPOT THE DIFFERENCE COMPETITION

WAV
"Not that long ago it WAS illegal for women to run a Marathon"

ME
"Not that long ago it WAS illegal for women to have the vote"

No prizes. Just a bit of fun." (Ralphie)...there is no difference - as you may have gathered if you'd read my earlier post about being quite happy for the next Archbishop of Canterbury to be a femal, e.g. I.e., of course it's a good thing that women now have the vote here. But can you live with the fact that you agree with me on something?!

Joe - "What about music by groups such as Faustus? Certainly the accompaniament is far from light, yet it is considered by many to be traditional English folk music. How would you define such a group?"...untraditional.

Catspaw - get back to your "dung-heap" IN your kitty litter.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: s&r
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 01:02 PM

Did you read it WAV or conveniently ignore it?Stu

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: mandotim
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 01:09 PM

In this context, becoming Archbishop of Canterbury and playing tennis are the same thing WAV; women should be able to do both if they have the ability and IF THEY WISH TO !!!! Without being forbidden to do so by an anachronistic, self obsessed, racist and sexist obergruppenfuhrer who thinks the world should bend to his will and thinks that all all human progress from now on should be subject to his warped view of Englishness, cultural separation and rules of femininity.

You don't have much experience with women, do you WAV? Most of the women I know would have one of two reactions to your views; helpless, mocking laughter or raging anger. Neither will really help you get a date, will they?
Tim
PS you still haven't answered most of my questions. Your efforts to do so above don't even come close.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 01:50 PM

I prefer the challenge and effect of trying to say things WITHIN the poetry traditions of metre and/or rhyme, Stu...but I do like her "Albert Einstein, life-size bronze".

Poem 148 of 230: AUDIENCE LOST

I returned, again,
    To what they pen -
The free-verse poets:
    Deep prose in sets...
I could read, again,
    Of Mice and Men.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

And that's a ridiculous post, Tim - I love the world being multicultural and hate imperialism (be it Nazi, Victorian, or any other). And are you sure all modern women wish to be masculine?...When catwalk models occasionally make the news for London Fashion Week or whatever, the trend still seems to be for femininity NOT bulging masculine muscles and veins.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 02:02 PM

If by femininity you mean scarecrow looks, I'm not sure that bulging muscles isn't better, at any rate, healthier.

I think we all understood that you implied that it would be better had women still been banned from marathons, and apparently, from the vote as well.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: mandotim
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 02:03 PM

'And that's a ridiculous post, Tim - I love the world being multicultural and hate imperialism (be it Nazi, Victorian, or any other). And are you sure all modern women wish to be masculine?...When catwalk models occasionally make the news for London Fashion Week or whatever, the trend still seems to be for femininity NOT bulging masculine muscles and veins.'

Just repeating things doesn't make them true, you muppet, despite Goebbels' views on the subject. You don't love the world being multicultural; you want each part of the world to be monocultural.

Where did I mention imperialism? Try to stick to the points raised.

I didn't say all or any modern women want to be masculine; that appears to be your fantasy, not mine WAV. How come you are so sure all modern women want to meet your stereotype of femininity?

Still no date though, eh?
Tim

PS; I do apologise for calling you an Obergruppenfuhrer. That's a military rank you would never achieve. I should have said Gauleiter.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 02:24 PM

"Where did I mention imperialism? Try to stick to the points raised." (Tim) and, earlier, "all human progress from now on should be subject to his warped view of Englishness" (Tim)...if that was true, and it certanily isn't, it would be fairly close to an imperialistic idea...and then you lose it completely, perhaps in a rush of sorts.
And the same may apply to you, Volgadon...
"I.e., of course it's a good thing that women now have the vote here." (me)..."I think we all understood that you implied that it would be better had women still been banned from marathons, and apparently, from the vote as well" (Volgadon).

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 02:34 PM

No, I'm afraid you've lost me there, WAV. Imperialism??? Eh?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: mandotim
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 02:59 PM

Ok, WAV; do you or do you not believe that each country should practise its own native culture and exclude cultures from elsewhere? If you do, that means that it is not desirable for one culture to learn from another (as this would pollute their 'own good culture'), Much of human and societal development has occurred through the cross-fertilisation of cultures; the Renaissance springs to mind. Your proposed system of cultural apartheid would prevent this, and therefore the process of development would be disadvantaged.

Human beings are social and inquisitive creatures WAV (you could be too, if you got out more), and trying to place artificial boundaries on their interactions and what they learn and absorb from those interactions is tantamount to fascism, and certainly would need the worst kind of totalitarianism to make it stick.

My reasons for teasing you about various things was to try to get you to engage in dialogue, and stop simply repeating the same mantras with no sign of having learned anything. You are still trying to defend your various positions by repeating the same forms of words you use on your (by now) utterly discredited websites.

Intelligent people can be characterised by their ability to enquire, learn and adapt, and to make rational judgements on the evidence before them in particular situations. This list is full of highly intelligent, rational, skilled and generous people (I exclude myself from all of those epithets, by the way; I am a neophyte in comparison to many of the Titans here). Many of them have tried to engage with you; Eliza Carthy talking to you about folk music springs to mind. They have disproved your assertions beyond any reasonable doubt over and over again, and you still continue to 'chant' the same tired old slogans. Almost without exception, you have simply dismissed or ignored their contributions, preferring to repeat your reactionary, racist, xenophobic and sexist tosh.
That forces me to one conclusion, WAV; it's a waste of my time, and everyone else's time trying to engage with you; you are not able (despite your smattering of education) to engage in civilised dialogue.
This is my last comment on any of your threads; These arguments are now making me angry, and you and your views are not worth my anger. I wish you well for the rest of your life, sad and lonely though it currently is. I hope you find happiness and fullfilment in some shape or form. If you ever do have the moral courage to stand for election to test your views against what the English public truly believe, I will gladly come to wherever you are standing and campaign implacably against you and all you stand for.
Tim
PS I don't want a reply. Even if you do, I won't be reading it.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 04:24 PM

"Just by the way - on the Antiques roadshow there was a very nice old banjo, smooth arm, made in Newcastle upon Tyne about a hundred years ago" (Stu)...noticed that...but never an English cittern on that programme."
Possibly because very few people have 400 year old instruments lying around the house. I don't think it's a pro-immigrationist and multiculturalist plot against England's own good culture.

"Here are some of the factors that define English folk, in my opinion, for Tiger Tim (but I couldn't put a number on your other questions, under #1)...
A music of miners, farmers, fishermen, and other working folk, now performed by all sorts."

This is fascinating. Look at that last sentance.
A music of miners, farmers, fishermen, and other working folk, now performed by all sorts.
Why the NOW? Who gave you the right to decide, according to your own you shouldn't be allowed to sing songs of miners, farmer and fishermen, because it isn't part of YOUR own good culture. The downside is that I don't think I know any traditional songs of forklift operators or ethnologists......

"racial purity" (IB)...I've only ever mentioned culture NOT race in questioning the act of immigration itself - NOT any particular race; and here's another example of your deluded attempts at analysis, IB -"

You don't seem to mind if someone like GERMANS brings something to England. Shall I quote you?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 04:44 AM

"your smattering of education" (Tim)...4 technical certificates and a degree in humanities...I was accepted for post grad. study, by the way, but chose not to devote several years to one or two micro matters; however, for what it's worth, I think achieving a Masters or a Doctorite is a good achievement...but I chose to produce you know what, lookihg at most of the big issues, instead.
"if you got out more" (Tim)...about 40 countries on a shoestring.
"These arguments are now making me angry" (Tim)...I agree.

Volgadon - same applies to you, it seems; e.g., I think it's good that people from all walks of life now practise/perform their own traditional music...I just wish the percentages were a LOT higher.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 05:02 AM

"your smattering of education" (Tim)...4 technical certificates and a degree in humanities

All right, all right, you're the only person here who can drive a fork-lift. Happy now?

Seriously - and I mean this as constructive advice - I think shutting up about the technical certificates would be a good idea.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 05:22 AM

WAV

I refer you to my message in the English Instruments thread.
The same applies here.
Could cut and paste, but I can't be arsed.
Goodbye

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 08:16 AM

Same what applies?

"your smattering of education" (Tim)...4 technical certificates and a degree in humanities...I was accepted for post grad. study, by the way, but chose not to devote several years to one or two micro matters; however, for what it's worth, I think achieving a Masters or a Doctorite is a good achievement...but I chose to produce you know what, lookihg at most of the big issues, instead.

Shame, you might have learned how to look at an issue in detail and not make sweeping pronouncements.

Here is an interesting question, who is going to regulate WAV's appalling spelling, horrid syntax and dreadful grammar?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 08:18 AM

"Sometimes on forums I get criticised for being dull and repetative, other times too colourful in my language."

It's not being dull that bothers people, it's the parrot-like repetition of quotes from your own personal canon instead of engaging in discussion.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 08:34 AM

Ralphie,

Allow me:

what this thread is really about, is WAVs theory of Monoculturalism.....(again)

With great trepidation I finally plucked up courage to visit WAVs MySpace page and sampled some of his recordings.
Just to say that it confirmed all my worst fears.

So, is this a first? A thread hi-jacked by its originator?
With a link to his own websites in every post, one has to come to the conclusion that this thread is the work of a delusional fantasist.
The rest of us got sucked in by its title.
Time to let it die now, please.
WAV. (No reply required, or indeed wanted)

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 08:52 AM

"Could cut and paste, but I can't be arsed.
Goodbye" (Ralphie)...perhaps someone could keep an eye on our friend...that could be painful!
"WAVs theory of Monoculturalism" (Pip)...ridiculous...I love our WORLD being multicultural, and will continue to respond ("be arsed", in Ralphies's language) to such rubbish.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 09:48 AM

"WAVs theory of Monoculturalism" (Pip)...ridiculous...I love our WORLD being multicultural, and will continue to respond ("be arsed", in Ralphies's language) to such rubbish.

Nobody's accused you of wanting the entire world to have a single culture; I don't think anyone in the history of the world has had that particular ambition. What Ralphie is, fairly obviously, talking about is your belief that each country should be monocultural - what I referred to above as a dream of a world where Fredland is full of Freddish people doing Freddish things, Bertland is full of Bertish people doing Bertish things, and so on all round the globe.

Is that an incorrect summary of your views? If so, in what way?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 10:08 AM

From Volgadon

"Here is an interesting question, who is going to regulate WAV's appalling spelling, horrid syntax and dreadful grammar?"

Hi V. I can put up with the grammatical faults.
Could be dyslexia, or any, many other reasons for that. Not a problem. Lots of very erudite people have issues with communicating.
But, he has placed his musical (?) works on his MySpace page.(Big Mistake IMO). It means that we can all hear his work in all it's glory(?)
Basically, having listened to it, The guy can't play, and has no sense of pitch, and even worse....It's very, very dull.
If the Portsmouth Sinfonia ever needed a vocalist, he wouldn't even have to take an audition.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: s&r
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 11:56 AM

I find , the ,unnecessary,commas, and strange use of eg eg is disconcerting.

Stu

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 12:10 PM

But, he has placed his musical (?) works on his MySpace page.(Big Mistake IMO). It means that we can all hear his work in all it's glory(?)
Basically, having listened to it, The guy can't play, and has no sense of pitch, and even worse....It's very, very dull.[quote Ralphie]
...WAV,I have heard Ralphie play and he is good.
WAV,my advice to be to you would be get some violin lessons,and a bit of vocal training,this will improve your pitch,intonation,abilty to sing in tune etc.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 12:16 PM

"Here is an interesting question, who is going to regulate WAV's appalling spelling, horrid syntax and dreadful grammar?"

Hi V. I can put up with the grammatical faults.

It's just that he goes on and on about English needing to be standardised and regulated.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 12:46 PM

Stu - I got distinctions for the majority of my essays (which I've kept) during my anthropology major...although I confess to having checked them more carefully than my posts here.
Ralphie and his friend CB - I've placed in a few NE folk-festival competitions (see here if you wish), where they don't have to award places, but do sometimes give feedback forms, which I've read and kept - much more positive than the last few OPINIONS.
And CB - you accompany your songs with chords NOT tunes, yes? Playing chords is NOT what English folkies, nor those in the country you've emigrated to, have done for centuries. Have you tried to learn to play the tunes you are singing, or should be singing to? I have heard someone play the tune they are singing on a concertina, and it sounded great.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: s&r
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 01:09 PM

I can't speak for the academic rigour of your course WAV but your English usage as seen here and on your website leaves much to be desired.

Just for qualification I shall say this once only, since my level of qualification and expertise is less than most of the Mudcat posters:

BA; CertEd; CertITO; FSBT; MU; MIfL; MUCU; and about thirty technical courses, five or six C&G qualifications; gigging musician; music teacher; Director of folk arts network, and Director of Folk Festival; published poet; published technical writer; 40yrs folkie. And I'm a new boy

Stu

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 01:19 PM

...if you want to carry on with it "Did you read it WAV or conveniently ignore it?Stu" is not perfect either. And, also above, you delight in a "poet" that makes no effort to use the traditional metre and/or rhyme that poets stuck to for centuries.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 01:22 PM

And CB - you accompany your songs with chords NOT tunes, yes?

WAV, please don't try to tell Dick Miles how to play. You'll only make yourself look even more ridiculous.

Could you answer my question? Ta.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 01:34 PM

WAV you again express your ignorance.
I employ many different techniques.,including playing the tune,in fact IF you bothered to listen to my cds and clips on you tube,there are occasions when I play the tune.When singing.
yes i frequently play the tune,here are some examples,adieu sweet lovely nancy[you tube],live not where i love, bogies bonny belle,streams of lovely nancy.,Barbara Allen[you tube],ball of yarn[youtube].just as the tideis flowing [myspace]
but you see because Iam skilled,I am playing the tune with chords.
most other professional performers,SteveTurner,Louis killen,keith kendrick, Damien Barber,do the same thing play melody with chords.they also play chords without melody,when they choose.
I also play single line harmony with my voice.
you are ignorant about the concertina too,it was only invented in 1843,so it is a victorian instrument,people have not been playing it for centuries.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: s&r
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 01:39 PM

Sorry WAV

"Did ,you, read it, or, conveniently , ignore, it Stu.

Prose is words in order; good prose is words in the best order; poetry is the bst words in the best order. Rhyme and scansion don't make good poetry.

Stu

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 02:04 PM

I didn't say playing the concertina for centuries - I said TUNES rather than chords.
And I am interested in the concertina, and have read A. Anderson's book on it, where, from memory, he mainly instructs folks in playing TUNES, and only briefly, perhaps reluctantly, mentions how to play chords.
Also from memory, on the "Chords in Folk?" thread, you were always agruing for folk accompaniment with chords, were you not..? But I apologise for not knowing that you play the tune sometimes/ on "occasions", and repeat that just the tune, on a concertina, as an accompaniment can sound great, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 03:55 PM

WAV.
You've played nicely(?) into my hands.
I play McCann Duet concertina.
The whole point of this instrument is to accompany oneself.
(Imagine a Harmonium in a box)
If I were you, I'd check out, Alexander Prince, Iris Bishop, Gavin Atkin, Michael Hebbert, Peter Honri.
When you have discovered these amazing musicians, Then get back to me.
Alistair Anderson plays the English system (Jolly well), but, the English doesn't lend itself, easily, to harmony playing (well it does, but you've got to be very good to make it work!)
You obviously don't have the faintest idea of the differences between the systems.
Go Study.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 04:28 PM

the English can be played like a duet as well,its difficult.
http://www.soundlantern.com/UpdatedSoundPage.do?ToId=4505 here is an example.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 04:34 PM

http://www.soundlantern.com/UpdatedSoundPage.do?ToId=4507
hereis dillpickle rag

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 04:40 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1PaQaNH9
now this song shows how versatile the English Concertina is.
WAV.open your ears,most of the time I am playing melody with chords,sometimes I vary it by dropping the melody and playing chords on the first few bars

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 04:51 PM

"And CB - you accompany your songs with chords NOT tunes, yes? Playing chords is NOT what English folkies, nor those in the country you've emigrated to, have done for centuries. Have you tried to learn to play the tunes you are singing, or should be singing to? I have heard someone play the tune they are singing on a concertina, and it sounded great."

I can't help but conclude from what WAV says here that his understanding of music in general and folk music in particular is even less that rudimentary.

I have heard singers accompany themselves on the concertina, and often it does indeed sound very good. But I have also noted that those who are not very proficient with the instrument often play the same line that they are singing. However, those who are more adept (and whose mind can encompass the concept) tend to play a harmony line with what they are singing, often interspersing a phrase from the melody line, or a variation thereof, between verses.

Perhaps, since one cannot play the recorder and sing at the same time, WAV hasn't grasped the concept of "accompaniment."

As to playing chords with English folk songs, indeed most traditional singers tend to sing without any accompaniment at all. However, some do accompany themselves on one instrument or another--probably whatever is at hand and with which they are acquainted. There is nothing inherent in English folk music which says that they should not be accompanied--by whatever instrument the singer choses or happens to have available.

I'm afraid WAV speaks from lack of knowledge, and more unfotunately, he seems to be unaware of how ignorant he is. Banging on a pot is loudest when the pot is empty.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 05:26 PM

WAV, there is as much evidence, if not more, of chords being played than of any actual folk use of the recorder.
Cast your mind back to that pub you are so fond of picturing. The one by the river with the weeping willow and swans which glide majestically upon the silvery waters. Take your eyes off of that clog dancer for a moment, and put down your tankard of much-loved ale, I would like to draw your attention an object standing in the corner. Yes, a piano. Has nobody ever gathered round it to sing trad songs? CHords feature heavily in the use of the instrument.
So, if it was alright for them to gather round the piano in the pub and play chords, then why can't Dick Miles play chords on his concertinas?

"...if you want to carry on with it "Did you read it WAV or conveniently ignore it?Stu" is not perfect either. And, also above, you delight in a "poet" that makes no effort to use the traditional metre and/or rhyme that poets stuck to for centuries."

And which metre would that be? Iambic pentameter, trochee, catalectic, dactylic hexameter, elegaic distich, alliterative verse, accentual, accentual-syllabic, common meter, iambic, tetrameter,alexandrine, hendecasyllable, the list goes on and on..... There are dozens, if not hundreds of ways for a poem to work, WAV. There is no 'right' way, there is no 'wrong' way, it all depends on the poet, his skill and what he set out to do. An important part of any art form is knowing HOW TO BREAK THE RULES AND WHEN.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: s&r
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 06:12 PM

So soft the whisper
Much wiser the whisperer
who whispers nothing


How loud the braggart
much wiser the whisperer
Who whispers nothing


The public speaker
who, understanding nothing
Has so much to say

Haikus Old English poetic form




Stu

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 06:14 PM

Anyone with half a wit can come up with a limerick, or a collection of quatrains, but something like a sonnet, esoecially one that works, takes a bit more skill.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 06:25 PM

By that way, that was 600. And I wasn't even trying. I'm laying in wait to be The Mark of the Beast.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: s&r
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 06:40 PM

Some old English examples of songs accompanied by chords

The first is a theorbo - first time Ive seen one played.

So if that's not authentic what is?

Stu

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 04:07 AM

Here is something WAV might like to consider, especially as regards his top-line melody theory.

http://www.wgma.org.uk/Articles/intro.htm

In parish records all around the country, details of the setting-up of singing groups may be found. Often this is in the form of an agreement, and this one from Alberbury in Shropshire made in 1788 is typical.


It was agreed by the Majority of a Parish Meeting of the Parishioners ... that the parish should be at the Expence of paying a Proper Person to improve and instruct any Young People that are willing to sing Psalms (to the Glory of God) in the said Church.

The next entries are for payments for meat and drink for the singers, to a Mr Michiner for instructing the psalm singers, and for the purchase of five psalm books. The only item missing from the Alberbury churchwardens' accounts is the purchase of a pitch-pipe. This was a wooden whistle or recorder-like pipe with a sliding insert which could be moved in and out to vary the pitch. Such an instrument had become necessary because the groups usually sang in three- or four-part harmony.

The early west gallery singing was, with only a few exceptions, dominated by male voices. In much of the early music the melody line is given to the tenor, with an underpinning bass harmony, contra-tenor as a counter. and a treble voice or voices above. As far as we have been able to discover, most early groups sang unaccompanied, but plainly, with limited local resources, often with little schooling, it would have been difficult for relatively untutored singers to hold their lines against other parts. This is probably the most significant single reason for the introduction of instruments. Fiddles would almost certainly have been available within village communities, but the cost of bass instruments would have been beyond the pockets of the middling tradesmen and artisans who made up the groups.

When reading old records one can almost detect a feeling of pride in the parish accounts when their subscriptions raised enough for the purchase of a bass viol, 'cello, bassoon, or serpent. Later purchases might have included an oboe (although it was more often called an hautbois, hoby, hotboy, etc.), a clarinet, and a flute, or flutes. The instruments were not grouped together as a band; instead, each instrument led a group of singers who would normally gather around the player, as in the marvellous painting of a village quire on the cover of the Watersons' 'Sound, Sound your Instruments of Joy'. In most parish accounts they remained 'the psalm singers' despite the addition of instruments, and they often cost a considerable proportion of the parish spending.

Too poor to afford a printed hymn book for each member of the quire, the musicians would lovingly copy out the words and scores into their personal tune-books, the instrumentalists often adding the dance tunes of the period in the back of the book.

There is no doubt that the mixed groups of instrumentalists and singers which we refer to as 'quires' to distinguish them for the organ-driven, surpliced latter-day groups, became very important in parish life. Those who played for the singing in church would also have played a major part in parish social life on feast days, high days and holidays. They had status within parish society, the nature of their jobs often gave them a measure of independence, and they were not infrequently in conflict with the parson or the squire. Their music often travelled far and wide, and in surprising forms.

......

Why would trad songs have necessarily been treated differently, and not sung in parts or with instruments playing more than the top-line melody? Granted, if you were singing a song whilst plowing the fields, you wouldn't have been able to play an instrument, but that's a different matter.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 05:16 AM

With all due respect, Don, you NOW seem completely "ignorant" of the "Chords in Folk?" thread.
"WAV, there is as much evidence, if not more, of chords being played than of any actual folk use of the recorder.
Cast your mind back to that pub you are so fond of picturing. The one by the river with the weeping willow and swans which glide majestically upon the silvery waters. Take your eyes off of that clog dancer for a moment, and put down your tankard of much-loved ale, I would like to draw your attention an object standing in the corner. Yes, a piano. Has nobody ever gathered round it to sing trad songs? CHords feature heavily in the use of the instrument.
So, if it was alright for them to gather round the piano in the pub and play chords, then why can't Dick Miles play chords on his concertinas?" (Volgadon)...clogs, tankards...music to my ears!...I play just the tune/top-line melody, as an accompaniment, on keyboards set to "piano" or after pleading "to play a pub's proper piano" (see myspace; "The Water is Wide" is done this way).
"And which metre would that be? Iambic pentameter, trochee, catalectic, dactylic hexameter, elegaic distich, alliterative verse, accentual, accentual-syllabic, common meter, iambic, tetrameter,alexandrine, hendecasyllable, the list goes on and on..... There are dozens, if not hundreds of ways for a poem to work, WAV. There is no 'right' way, there is no 'wrong' way, it all depends on the poet, his skill and what he set out to do. An important part of any art form is knowing HOW TO BREAK THE RULES AND WHEN." (Volgadon)...but, for centuries, NOT free verse - was it Ezra Pound who first said to hell with it, regarding traditional metre and/or rhyme? Either way, I like the challenge and effect of saying things WITHIN those limits - that's poetry.

"Anyone with half a wit can come up with a limerick, or a collection of quatrains, but something like a sonnet, esoecially one that works, takes a bit more skill." (Don)...

Poem 146 of 230: HORSES FOR COURSES?

To some, in income-anticipation,
    Horse-balking at gates is a small debase;
To me, it seems a memory/fear case
    Over the coming whip-castigation.
To some, the winning jockey's elation
    Is the highlight of an ended horserace;
To me, the horse's bulged veins and scared face
    Undermine the winners' celebration.
I can't condone a punter's desire
    To gamble rather than earn a living,
    But can acknowledge a jockey's courage;
I can't see and think as a raced sire,
    Nor feel the scrapes hedges are giving,
    But find horses choiceless in their bondage.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Finally, from that "Chords in Folk" thread, and as admitted on it, I did change my words here to "English folk-music, for centuries, has entertained people, with telling and/or dancing, via, MOSTLY, the repetition of tunes…"

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 05:43 AM

...clogs, tankards...music to my ears!...I play just the tune/top-line melody, as an accompaniment, on keyboards set to "piano" or after pleading "to play a pub's proper piano" (see myspace; "The Water is Wide" is done this way).

Stop avoiding the question. I didn't ask what YOU do, I asked you if chords were played on the pub's piano, why is Dick Miles playing them on a concertina some form of heresy.


but, for centuries, NOT free verse - was it Ezra Pound who first said to hell with it, regarding traditional metre and/or rhyme? Either way, I like the challenge and effect of saying things WITHIN those limits - that's poetry.

Again I ask, which is the proper form and meter?
I suspect that you really know very little of Ezra Pound, if you've even read him. He is very, very far from being my favourite poet, but he can't be dismissed lightly, he did have a strong grasp of the inner workings of his native tongue, which is vital for any poet. He did not come up with the concept of free verse all on his own, but drew heavily from MEDIEVAL poetry. Alliterative verse ring any bells?


Good poetry,
is not mere rhymes,
you see.


It's better to say that most songs COLLECTED in the early 20th century were sung unaccompanied, etc.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 06:01 AM

Congratulations on trying to write a sonnet. But I stress 'trying'. A sonnet is 14 lines of iambic pentameter - five iambs per line, dum-DUM dum-DUM dum-DUM dum-DUM dum-DUM
("O how unlike the place from whence they fell")
Sometimes the pattern can be varied with a falling DUM-dum trochee
("Earth has not anything to show more fair", first foot)
sometimes with a flat flat dum-dum spondee
("The frost performs its secret ministry", last foot)

What you've written doesn't come close. The pattern of stresses is different in every line, and in most cases there are four rather than five. Also the rhymes are appallingly forced - 'sire' isn't a synonym for 'horse', 'debase' isn't a noun and a horse doesn't have a 'face'.

Frankly, I don't think poetry is your metier.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: pavane
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 07:16 AM

"It's better to say that most songs COLLECTED in the early 20th century were sung unaccompanied, etc. "

But again, MOST of them were half-remembered pop songs from the 1800's, which would probably have been performed with accompaniment.

See for example My Johnny was a shoemaker, written c1859 in the US by a composer and performed in a tour around Europe by his wife, presumably accompanied by the composer on piano.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 08:14 AM

Here's a slightly more detailed critique (what the hell, it's lunchtime). I've marked the feet with '|'.

To some|, in in|come-anti|cipation,

Four feet, not five. Third foot is a three-syllable anapaest (dum-dum-DUM). Fourth foot also has three syllables, but we can disregard the last one and treat '-ation' as a single syllable (this is sometimes called a 'feminine rhyme').

    Horse-bal|king at gates |is a small |debase;

Four feet again, two anapaests. It's spelt 'baulking' with a U. You don't mean 'horse-baulking', which would mean the act of baulking a horse, but 'A horse baulking' or 'To see a horse baulking'. There's no such noun as 'debase', and I don't know what it's meant to mean here ('disadvantage'? 'annoyance'?).

To me, |it seems |a memo|ry/fe|ar case|

Just about works as long as you pronounce 'fear' with two syllables, which most people don't.

    Over| the com|ing whip|-castigation.

Four feet - a trochee, two iambs and a dactyl (DUM-dum-dum).

To some|, the winn|ing jock|ey's elation

Four feet - three iambs and an anapaest

    Is the |highlight| of an| ended| horserace;

Five feet, every one of them a trochee. Seriously, look at this. The only way this is iambic is if you can read 'Is the highlight' and emphasise 'the' and 'light'.

To me|, the hor|se's bulged| veins and |scared face

Three iambs and two trochees. Usually you'd say 'bulging' veins and you wouldn't refer to a horse's 'face'.

    Un|dermine| the win|ners' cel|ebration.

I'll let you call this iambic, even though there's a syllable missing at the start.

I can't |condone| a pun|ter's desire|

Four feet, last one an anapaest.

    To gam|ble ra|ther than earn| a living,

Four feet, third one an anapaest. (And is that really why punters gamble? They can't keep at it for very long if so.)

    But can |acknow|ledge a joc|key's courage;

Four feet, third one an anapaest. Maybe you've invented a new metre.

I can't |see and |think as |a raced| sire,

Two trochees and one foot with a missing syllable - and what's a 'sire' in this context?

    Nor feel |the scrapes |hedges| are giving,

Four feet, one of them a trochee.

    But find |horses |choiceless in |their bondage.

Four feet: iamb, trochee, dactyl, iamb. Also, doesn't rhyme - when you're using feminine rhymes, the rhyme needs to include the stressed syllable as well as the trailing unstressed syllable, and 'cour-' doesn't rhyme with 'bond-'.

Summary: most of the rhymes are either bad or forced, and the metre's terrible - there are only two lines of iambic pentameter in the whole thing, and both of them are debatable.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 08:29 AM

debase is not a noun ...

Main Entry:
    de·base
Function:
    transitive verb
Date:
    1565

1: to lower in status, esteem, quality, or character

2 a: to reduce the intrinsic value of (a coin) by increasing the base-metal content b: to reduce the exchange value of (a monetary unit)
— de·base·ment   noun
— de·bas·er   noun

synonyms
debase, vitiate, deprave, corrupt, debauch, pervert
mean to cause deterioration or lowering in quality or character.

debase implies a loss of position, worth, value, or dignity [commercialism has debased the holiday].
vitiate implies a destruction of purity, validity, or effectiveness by allowing entrance of a fault or defect [a foreign policy vitiated by partisanship].
deprave implies moral deterioration by evil thoughts or influences [the claim that society is depraved by pornography].
corrupt implies loss of soundness, purity, or integrity [the belief that bureaucratese corrupts the language].
debauch implies a debasing through sensual indulgence [the long stay on a tropical isle had debauched the ship's crew].
pervert implies a twisting or distorting from what is natural or normal [perverted the original goals of the institute].

mumble mumble mumble is a small debase....

seems ok to me.... :-P


(Mr Pedantic strikes again!)

Running for the door....

:-)

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 08:37 AM

Come on, give the guy a break - ok, he stuffed up the meter well and truly, but your objection of his use of some of the words you object to is most unfair for 'poetry' - and using a word for a verb as a noun, etc is highly 'Shakespearean', and still done so even today...


Surely thou wouldst have failed Shakespeare himself, mate... :-)

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 09:01 AM

Punters tend to gamble for the rush, more than anything.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,SOETO
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 09:20 AM

English Country Dancing -> European origin (Italian?)
Step Dance -> Celtic (Scots?)
Morris -> European (Spanish?)
Longsword + Rapper -> European (Germany?)
Modern Maypole with Ribbons -> European (French/Italian)?
Bagpipes (Middle East/Roman?)
Anglo Concertina (half German)
Flageolet (French)
Pipe + Tabor (French)

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 10:39 AM

Volgadon - if someone, as I do, plays just the tune/top-line melody on a piano/keys set on "piano", it may be said that they are not playing it properly/not making proper use of the instrument's full capabilities OR that they are playing it in a folkie way. I like hearing just the tune on a piano, concertina, etc...maybe that's because I'm a folkie at heart.
WR AND FT - there are different kinds of sonnets (2, from memory, in my collection). And poetry, as with music, IS subjective - some HAVE happened to like at least some of mine, which do include some POETIC LICENCE.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 11:11 AM

your objection of his use of some of the words you object to is most unfair for 'poetry'

Maybe I did go over the top a bit. As it happens, I've written sonnets in the past - and large amounts of poetry in iambic pentameter - and I've always taken pains to get it right. It's actually not that hard, if you take a bit of care over it.

there are different kinds of sonnets

True - and your use of the difficult Petrarcan rhyme scheme would certainly earn you points, if only you'd brought it off a bit better. But none of them mess around with the metre the way you do. If it's a sonnet it'll go dum-DUM, dum-DUM, dum-DUM, dum-DUM, dum-DUM, with a very few variations.

But this is Mudcat Vs Walkaboutsverse all over - we can all criticise or challenge him as much as we like, it'll all be shrugged off or ignored, even at the cost of total inconsistency. I like the challenge and effect of saying things WITHIN those limits - but when I point out he's failed to do so, that doesn't matter because poetry, as with music, IS subjective.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: s&r
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 11:42 AM

Sad, WAV that you manage to alienate so many good people on this forum. Many of them could and would help you to improve your singing, your playing, your poetry and your education.

Instead of using this wonderful resource and the friendly and erudite people herein, you prefer to hector, pontificate and preach to a population so much better qualified.

Refusing to read the wisdom that has been proffered to you makes you the poorer.

I think many of us applaud your efforts in the directions of 'folk art' and would wish you to succeed: sadly you mock the sincerity of the more helpful and corrective replies by your intransigence. This has resulted in mutual cat-calling that does Mudcat a disservice.


Sincerely

Stu

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 12:22 PM

WAV, that if says it all.

Stop avoiding the question. I didn't ask what YOU do, or like, I asked you if chords were played on the pub's piano, and there is no basis for assuming that they weren't, then why is Dick Miles playing them on a concertina some form of heresy.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 01:36 PM

It seems to me, WAV, that you believe that nations should be monocultural, i.e. that England should be full of English people doing English things, France should be full of French people doing French things, and so on around the world.

I won't bother you for a Yes or No - I'll assume this is an accurate summary of your views, unless you tell us otherwise.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 04:59 PM

"With all due respect, Don, you NOW seem completely 'ignorant' of the 'Chords in Folk?' thread."

WAV, having reread that thread, I find nothing inconsistent with anything I've also written on this thread. So, to what are you referring?

And as far as your attempt at a sonnet is concerned, others have already critiqued it, so I shall show mercy and refrain.

Perhaps I should refer you once again to something I posted on the "Chords in Folk" thread.   Note particularly the parable of the cup of tea.   CLICKY

Don Firth

P. S.   By the way, Robin, I thing "debase" is what "de-statue" stands on. . . .

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 09:23 PM

Don, I'll deal with you later - I'm off to gather the 'special' herbs now.... :-P

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 02:47 AM

"P. S.   By the way, Robin, I thing "debase" is what "de-statue" stands on. . . ."

Reminds me of an old Jewish anecdote. A husband is away on a business trip when the hospital phones him. His wife is delivering. He drops everything, hops in the car and tries to make it back, but it breaks down and he misses the birth. He calls the hospital and to his horror, the phone is answered by his brother, not the brightest of all bulbs in the box, and who still has a heavy old country accent.
-How did the birth go?
-Vent vell, you hed tvins, a boy enda gerel. I named zem for you.
At this point, the guy gets worried.
-What did you name the girl?
-Denise.
-OH, that's a pretty name! What did you name the boy?
-Denephew.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 06:29 AM

Let's sum it all up...............

yeah.....that's about it.........

Spaw

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 09:03 AM

...I'm going to fix "baUlking", thanks Pip/Working Radish; and, if I can think of something, replace "debase"! But, yet again, I've read "HORSES FOR COURSES?" aloud and it SOUNDS okay...ONE (HUM)MAN'S MEAT...?!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 09:07 AM

You're going to fix? Baulking???
Why bother. No ones ever going to read it.
You've read something "Out Loud"?
Good job you didn't try to sing it.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 09:12 AM

Depends whether you want to write a 14-line poem or a sonnet, really. As ever, it's up to you what you choose to attempt - what's not up to you is judging how well you achieve it.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 09:16 AM

I, for one, or another, think, for whatever reason, if a reason there is, that you, the Wavylimpdick, are a racist, bigot, and chavinistic, asshole. You, for other,possibly and often many, sundry reasons, some good and some great, need to get past, or is that passed,(HAHA), the commentary with, to make a cutie here, and possibly elswhere as well, commas spliced in all, and just about everywhere, over your pathetic, gerbil-like, writing.

Spaw

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Mr Happy
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 09:20 AM

Mr Happy's qualis= an honours degree in humanities & driving a forklift, playing manifold musical intruments, singing, composition of poems, tunes, songs, knowledge of when to use e.g. & when not to, cycling proficiency certificate, swimming one breadth using breaststroke, Local Authority minibus driving licence, so what career move am I best suited to next?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Mr Happy
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 09:39 AM

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=T_221BH9pNE

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 10:05 AM

"so what career move am I best suited to next?"

How's your left hand mate?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,We Subvert Koalas
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 10:08 AM

For fuck;s sake Mr Happy - let us know what the link is before you go spinging that sort of shit on us! That has to be the most disgusting thing I've ever seen. Is that WAV? Giving his cheap plastic tenor recorder fellatio? Silently? OMFG! And - it's posted as a response to THIS! Who the fuck do you think you are WAV? Something - that's for sure.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Mr Happy
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 10:44 AM

We Subvert Koalas = Outlaws Eva Krebs?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 11:09 AM

I've linked that questionable video before........Kinda' makes it clear why so many refer to him as "Blowboy."

Spaw

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 01:09 PM

Well, now that you've (Cough! Choke!) mastered the sonnet, WAV, how about favoring us with a vilanelle?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 02:10 PM

Or an ode, maybe even an elegy.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 02:33 PM

I sung one and read one last night, Ralphie, at a NE Poetry Journal event, and they seemed to be received okay.
I'm a tad surprised no-one knocked the quality of the recording on the link that Mr Happy happily took the liberty of posting.
So sorry, Don and Volga added on - I've retired from versification to present my life's work, along with E. trads and the odd hymn, on the folk and poetry scenes, as above.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 02:37 PM

See, that is another thing that sets you apart from true poets. None of them reached a certain number, then decided that they weren't going to write anymore, the cannon is closed.
It also shows that you are merely pushing an agenda.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 02:44 PM

Stark Vowel Abuse?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 03:06 PM

"See, that is another thing that sets you apart from true poets. None of them reached a certain number, then decided that they weren't going to write anymore" (Volgadon)..."none"?...

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 03:36 PM

None looked at their work, and went. 'Oh, think I have enough, time to do something else...'

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 04:34 PM

I don't think I've ever heard of anyone (save a person who worked for someone else at a job they didn't especially like and finally retires) who said that their "life's work" is finished. That is especially true of poets, writers, artists, musicians.

A singer or ballerina may retire when they feel that they've reached an age when their physical resources are no longer up to what they should be. But even then, they frequently turn to teaching, or take up some other aspect of their art, such as Beverly Sills, who, when she retired from singing, became general manager of New York City Opera.

But poets, writers, and visual artists usually keep right on going until they shuffle off this mortal coil. Many such artists don't really feel they've hit their stride until they reach "a certain age" and have a great deal of memories and experience to draw upon.

And in the case of people who retire from jobs they worked at for income rather than pleasure and fulfillment, many feel that now that they have the time, their real life's work is about to begin.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 05:05 PM

First Presentation of Life's Work Delivered HERE

Folkie Presentation HERE

For His Largest Presentations Are HERE

His Life's Work!!!


Spaw

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 05:09 PM

Take Mozart, I feel that it wasn't until the end of his short life that he was becoming profound, musically.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 05:13 PM

I immediately thought of Rimbaud*, who gave up poetry at the age of 20(!) - but he gave it up to do something else with his life, not to monumentalise his "life's work".

You're one of a kind, WAV. (See also 'Strange Compliments' thread.)

*Not something I'd often say about WAV.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 05:25 PM

Poets do give up poetry, naturally, but for OTHER reasons than Wav's. Oftentimes it's to do with severe trauma or emotional stress, or they feel that the well of inspiration has dried up.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 05:51 PM

But there is another aspect to one's "life's work." Learning. That's everyone's life's work. No one starts out knowing it all. And at no point in one's life can he or she say, "I now know everything I need to know and don't have to bother learning anything more, nor do I need to re-examine what I already 'know'." Life itself is a learning process, and when one stops learning, one is as good as dead.

The immensity of the Cosmos provides an endless opportunity to provide fascinating questions and to learn about the physical universe we inhabit, and the amazing variety of the manifestations of human thought and experience (in short, culture) means that there will never be an end to new occasions to learn and expand our own knowledge—and, indeed, should make us aware of the necessity to continually re-examine what we think we know. This is not a burden as some suppose. It is one of life's greatest joys!

The problem with a carefully regulated monoculture is that it places a limit on one's chances to experience that human variety and limits one's opportunities to expand one's knowledge. Unfortunately, of course, there are those who find that new experiences, especially those that require them to question and re-evaluated what they have accepted as certainties, are very uncomfortable and unsettling, and sometimes go so far as to try to manipulate their lives and surroundings in order to avoid such disturbances.

But if one is so locked into his beliefs that he stops learning and never re-examines and re-evaluates them, then he or she is little more than an animated pile of dead meat.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 11:21 PM

"retired from versification"

O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 02:31 AM

No, because he hasn't retired from repeating ad nauseum the verses he has already composed.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 06:07 AM

Don and Volgadon - I consider presenting walkaboutsverse.741.com, on the folk and poetry scenes, etc., as a part of my life's work but, as I say, have retired from actual versification.
Better known poets who did something similar...?...On the other hand, Thomas Hardy, a lover of English folk dance and music, actually focused on poetry for the rest of his life after vowing never to write another novel, I heard...

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 07:03 AM

Hardy always considered himself a poet first and foremost.

I know inspiration can dry up, but I fail to understand why anyone would write poems and then make a *decision* to stop - unless (like Rimbaud) they were abandoning poetry altogether.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 08:59 AM

For what it's worth, Pip, on the local poetry scene, I still enjoy reading and discussing the poems of others. I also read through my collection annually, and occasionally make minor changes - but, basically, I've said all I want to say, and am content with the countries and places I've visited.

Poem 199 of 230: BEDE'S WORLD - WINTER 2002/3

During Advent, I returned to Bede's World,
    Where I, already read, was further schooled -
Via walks through the museum, the farm,
    The ruins, and the church with its old arm.
With gifts, I left, after some four hours,
    To round off, at home, my thoughts on ours.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 09:08 AM

"basically, I've said all I want to say, and am content with the countries and places I've visited"

Ah - Waiting for God - there was a TV series about that - also one called One Foot in the Grave...

and while I'm in the mood...

Look at the Coffin,
Bloody great handles,
Isn't it grand boys,
To be bloody well dead!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 10:30 AM

Wav, I think you'll find that Thomas Hardy gave up writing novels because he didn't want to go through the agony and heartbreak that he went through when the public read his last two novels. Add to that the stress on his domestic life and a writer's sensitive ego and you can see why. He didn't give up writing, but returned to his first love, poetry.
Hardy did not look at Jude the Obscure and think to himself, well, this caps my life's work, I think I'll rest now.

Wav, I'll be very blunt, only a fool decides to stop learning. There is ALWAYS more to see, more to hear, more to discover, more to learn, there is always a BETTER poem to write, and so on and so forth.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: s&r
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 10:58 AM

Ee Volgadon - that's not very blunt.

Spaw ia the master of blunt.

Stu

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 12:32 PM

who was the writer who took to his bed and masturbated for many years was it Flaubert?.
wav,have you thought ,now you have given up writing poetry,of taking up another hobby,perhaps gliding,or pot holing,or some outdoor activity,perhaps twitching .

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 12:40 PM

Spaw is the master of very creative rudeness. There is a difference between that and mere bluntness and I do not aspire to such lofty heights as Mudcat's master of the craft.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 12:44 PM

The day I stop doing what I do will be the day they put a tag on my toe, throw a sheet over me, and close the drawer. But

When it comes my time to die,
You can bury my all but my good right eye.

because I'm going to keep right on watching!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 12:49 PM

I'm hardly at "rest" (Volgadon) or merely "waiting for God" (FT) but, rather, quite active as an amateur performance poet and folkie - including working out the tunes ot my 17 "Chants from Walkabouts", and committing to memory the recorder and keyboard fingering of more than 50 altogether.
One thing's for sure, CB, if ever enjoying Ireland, again, it will only be as a respectful tourist, again - NOT as a capitalist/economic immigrant.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 02:19 PM

Still on a sombre note, the "cultural olympiad" kicked off today - however, from what I saw on the news, not with Morris Dancing but American street dancing.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 02:30 PM

Because that is people's culture. Don't you think it's great that youth are out there having wholesome fun?
Give it a few centuries and breakdancing will become as much part of the cultural landscape as the Spanish morris was.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: s&r
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 04:13 AM

WAV you're such a sad person - you see problems and restrictions and don'ts and negatives where the rest of the world sees joy. Music is wonderful whoever and wherever it's played. Dance is wonderful anywhere, any style.

Even your banal verse is better written than if you had never tried. Singing improves with practice so does playing an instrument.

Norma Waterson, bastion of English folk chose to sing a West indian version of Streets of Laredo last night on Channel 4 - it was great.

Think positive. Be happy for everyone who performs anything: it's better than performing nothing, even (especially?) if it's outside your box.

Put your talents and energy to better use.

Stu

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 09:32 AM

I definitely do appreciate other cultures, Stu, but I only practise/perform my own; and this is hardly radical - not that long ago, many folk clubs in England had a perform-your-own policy.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 10:01 AM

On the contrary, WAV, you've abandoned your own (Australian) culture, in favour of a version of Englishness which you've made up out of your head (although I suppose that could be called your own culture...)

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: s&r
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 12:45 PM

Do you then 'definitely appreciate' the break dancing culture in Wales? I watched this and found it fun rather than sombre (as you misanthropically describe it).


Stu

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 03:06 PM

Stu: That was on the mainstream news, so many saw it rather than traditional Welsh dancing, which may have appealed as much or more - a great shame.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 06:31 PM

From: WalkaboutsVerse

Still on a sombre note, the "cultural olympiad" kicked off today - however, from what I saw on the news, not with Morris Dancing but American street dancing.

We were out Morris dancing here as part of the Cultural Olympiad. A quick check around our area shows that there's also Poetry, Art workshops, history, comedy, sport, exhibitions, music, story telling, cookery, traditional games, historical re-enactments, circus & street entertainers, theatre, bell ringing, singing, dancing, film... the list goes on. Not bad for the first couple of days.

Maybe you should get off your arse - stop moaning, watching TV & posting bollocks on Mudcat - and go out and learn something about the country you live in.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: s&r
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 07:17 PM

Do you only appreciate some other cultures WAV?

Stu

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 07:19 PM

Maniacal Satanic Laughter!!

666

Don Firth

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 01:45 AM

Wav, what traditional English dances did Morris and ECD replace, or was there just a vacuum, people sitting around on their backsides until someone came up with an English dance. Never mind that those two are foreign imports.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 04:41 AM

"We were out Morris dancing here as part of the Cultural Olympiad. A quick check around our area shows that there's also Poetry, Art workshops, history, comedy, sport, exhibitions, music, story telling, cookery, traditional games, historical re-enactments, circus & street entertainers, theatre, bell ringing, singing, dancing, film... the list goes on. Not bad for the first couple of days." (Woody)...music to my ears, Woody...and those are the sorts of things that should be on mainstream news.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 04:53 AM

Wav, what traditional English dances did Morris and ECD replace, or was there just a vacuum, people sitting around on their backsides until someone came up with an English dance. Never mind that those two are foreign imports.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: s&r
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 05:33 AM

From a thread on Derbyshire country dances ca 1927:


The Russian Dance
Bonnie Cate
Major O'Flacherty
The Duchess of Hamilton's Rant
The Black Boy


Which of these would your xenophobic rules allow WAV?


Stu

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 02:13 PM

I'm not "xenophobic", Stu - I've found my way, on a shoestring, through about 40 countries, getting on okay with many races/cultures along the way.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: s&r
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 03:42 PM

So which of these according to your arbitrary rules would be allowe as an English country dance?

Stu

By the way I don't know if you are xenophobic, but your pronouncements are

Stu

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 05:39 AM

I don't know them, frankly, Stu - I've watched and listened to "English country dance" (and at least we AGREE! on not calling it "ceilidh", which my late English Godmother, who did learn ECD at school, had not even heard of) but that's about it, at this stage...; and I only play a couple of dance tunes as song intro's - "The Northumberland (NOT "Northumbrian", for some reason) Bagpipes" and "English Country Gardens" - having fitted the words myself to the Morris tune from a Bert Cleaver/Morris Ring book.
What I can say is that the name "Jerusalem" doesn't stop me playing and singing "And did those feet in ancient times...", as part of my English hymn repertoire, each weekend (same link).

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,We Subvert Koalas
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 06:18 AM

Odd that you think of Jerusalem as an English Hymn, WAV, but otherwise it fits your mad schemes quite snugly. The opening lines refer to a legend of a young Jesus visiting (as an eco-tourist no doubt) England - specifically Glastonbury - with his uncle, Joseph of Arimathia, whilst the rest of it is couched in terms of a symbolic residence of a humanity freed of the inter-related chains of commerce, British imperialism, and war. Blake's mental fight is directed against these chains. In his Blake: Prophet Against Empire, David Erdman tells us that Blake's dark, Satanic Mills are the mills that produce dark metal, iron and steel, for diabolic purposes... London.. was a war arsenal and the hub of the machinery of war, and Blake uses the symbol in that sense.

Did Blake's visionary insanity extend so far as racism? Perhaps we shall never know, but it seems a shame that such a splendid piece of revolutionary polemic has been co-opted as not just a Hymn, which it never was, but our unofficial national(ist) anthem.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 01:14 PM

...I'm aware that some, in the C of E, e.g., argue that it's not a hymn, WSK - but it is in both "The New English Hymnal," and "Hymns Ancient and Modern."

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: s&r
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 01:36 PM

If you\re going to use dots for contractions (Outdated) you should really have C.of E.,e.g., = or better, go with open punctuation


Stu

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 05:37 AM

I C, Stu.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: s&r
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 12:11 PM

Good :)

Stu

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 01:06 PM

...but, Stu, you forgot your -
:-)

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: s&r
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 01:38 PM

But still a few surplus commas WAV. Open punctuation is used by many skilled typists for its uncluttered appearance and readability.

Stu

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 05:40 PM

I did check a style manual several times when writing walkaboutsverse.741.com, Stu, but such styles will change - remember how, a few years ago, the media began dropping the use of capitals in names?...stu/morris dancing...somethings are surely better left as is. But, yes, I think that fairly new manual does mention a trend for using less punctuation marks, as you suggest.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 06:09 PM

Forget style manuals, LEARN the functions of things like punctuation.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Snuffy
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 06:47 PM

less punctuation
fewer punctuation marks

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 10:53 PM

What bullshit! Your use of ridiculous punctuation coupled with your defensive tone when you're wrong simply asssures one and all of your status as a dipshit.

But let's forget all that and just talk about your mother. I'm sure that for you it isn't easy, but your mother is.

Spaw

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 04:40 AM

Erm. Can we get back to exploring WAVs weird views re "National Identity"
On the other hand, I'm happy to see this thread drift into absurdity.
(It's actually funnier like that. After all, we have to admit that we are never going to change WAVs racist standpoint.)

WAV, I resent the fact that my taxes are supporting your benefit claims.
Go on WAV. Go out and get a job, and stop spongeing on the rest of us.
When you are contributing to the UK coffers, then you will have the right to an opinion on how us taxpayers live our lives.

Alternatively, you could do what your name says, and Walkabout somewhere else.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Surreysinger
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 05:32 AM

Chaps ....come on now... name calling etc ... not very civilised or adult. If it's come down to WAV picking people up on their style of producing smileys (and incorrectly at that, since there IS no one correct way of producing a smiley), or their use of punctuation or grammar for lacking of any better argument, then it's really not worth rising to his bait ... and any way, what happened to those Morris dancers ??

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 06:25 AM

Its not a case of rising to bait. We all know he's a troll but most of us I think are taking advantage of his crap to have an enjoyable time ourselves. I know I am. If we all quit posting he'll just keep things going all by himself (the only way he has sex) until others come along. Wavydork won't quit so why not jerk the racist piece of pigshit around for the hell of it?

And he is that......racist. So have no fear for anyone's sanity except perhaps Wavy's mom.......something about the latent effects of an s.t.d I think.

Spaw

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 07:20 AM

Hi Spaw.
Yes, of course you are right. But, shouldn't we pity him?
He's set himself up as such an obvious target, that it's almost impossible to miss...
Let it go please. (And that includes me)
It's sad, and the rest of us here are not doing him any favours.
Dont kick a guy when he's having troubles.
I hope that he seeks help. He obviously needs it.
So lets all stop now.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 01:07 PM

Catspaw: not only would some of your language make a bullocky blush, but your opinions shift faster than a cat on a hot tin roof - remember a few weeks ago you were almost pleading for mudcat to host my above website? If you don't, paw through the threads.
Ralphie - 4 technical certificates and a degree in humanities, A-grade junior football and tennis, 40 countries, etc...who's deluding themself...and who's been using the new buzz phrase "global regulationism" for years?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 01:14 PM

LMAO.....That was complete bullshit! Consider it as "damning with faint praise." Do you really think your stuff has any value at all compared to the DT? Don't delude yourself Wavydoof.

I really love the fact you believed me.........

Spaw

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 01:15 PM

-Do you know what irony is?
-Yes, it's like bronzy and goldy.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 01:44 PM

Ralphie - 4 technical certificates and a degree in humanities, A-grade junior football and tennis, 40 countries, etc...who's deluding themself...and who's been using the new buzz phrase "global regulationism" for years?

Rank is but the guinea stamp, man's the gowd for a' that.
Applies equally to degrees and tech. certificates.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 01:46 PM

That's told you, Ralphie. Bet you can't drive a forklift truck.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 01:51 PM

Mind you, Wav has never actually told us if he's WORKED as a forkie.
He certainly hasn't done anything with anthropology, merely learned about it.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 02:21 PM

Oh Well.
I admit defeat.
WAV is a superior, (No,... God Like) creature.
I bow to him. I am not worthy to smell his armpits.
I will now go and kill my self.
Sorry to the rest of the world.
Goodbye

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 02:52 PM

Thus ends the sad tale of Ralphie, a man without 4 tech. certificates.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 03:03 PM

If you want to smell my armpits, help raise the roof in a mass chorus of "Country Life", and maybe even help me forkabout some folkie festival hardware, not to mention get me off the dole, Ralphie, you better pull, very strongly, a few of your friend Ruth's strings - if she is indeed the high-rank folk-festival director you claim her to be on the other thread (or just another Catspaw?)! Otherwise, I'll keep TRYING to get back into manufacturing, thanks.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 03:54 PM

Keep dreaming, Crocodile Dundee.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 04:34 PM

Oh, you mean the contemporary song with very audible American influences?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 04:53 PM

Oh, wotthehell! Why not?

700

Don Firth

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 04:56 PM

Volgodon, I think he means the folk song by the same name. I'm still not smelling his armpits.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 05:24 PM

If you did, Ruth A/Prudhoe Pixie, then you too might be singing...
"I like to rise when the sun she rises
Early in the morning..." (Country Life; 1 of 17, excluding carols, E trads in my repertoire).

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 07:48 AM

Way to go, Wav. You've just killed off that song as it now will be forever entwined with your armpits, shudders......

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 12:36 PM

It's a fine song - certainly NOT "the pits".

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 01:35 PM

You had to bring them into it!!!!
No matter how fine a song, it is now damned by association. Ruined, sheer ruined.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 05:10 AM

So how do you feel about this Volgadon: on oMusic TV, probably every day, we are seeing Morris Dancers BUT, rather than the music they are dancing to, we only hear some modernistic stuff called, I think, "As serious as your life" from a group called, I think, "Four Tet."

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 06:49 AM

Wav, thanks! Thanks to you, I just made a new discovery. This is seriously one of the coolest things I've seen. It would actually be pretty good for the cultural part of the Olympics.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5OM82LTsU0

What you fail to see is that some kid, who thinks that morris is a bunch of silly old men jumping up and down with bells and sticks, will watch this video and discover that there is more to morris than that.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 12:06 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5OM82LTsU0...that's the one, Volgadon, but hopefully discover proper Morris accompaniment to the kinds of good dancing it shows.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 12:21 PM

Why is that not proper morris (with a small 'm' you ignoramus) accompaniment? The music lets you carry out the required moves, doesn't it?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 12:31 PM

Loving that video. Got it on my Facebook profile now.


I wonder if this is "proper" morris accompaniment to "proper" morris dancing?


In Waveyworld, I suspect not. What a sad world that must be to live in.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 01:04 PM

Thanks Ruth - for what it's worth, I thought the dancing and fiddle playing were great but the other (drum kit, etc.) noise unfortunate pollution.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 01:11 PM

Fascinating stuff that firedancing, Ruth. Thanks!
Isn't the Four Tet video something?

Wav, may the UN purchase your chants from Walkabouts and play them at an international convention of immigration and regulations, but accompany them with chords played on sitar, banjo and balalaika.
There's, that's part of MY own good culture, Jewish curses!!!!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 01:58 PM

Not, strictly speaking, morris dancing, but. . . .

CLICKY.

I suppose you could call this "horsing around."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: s&r
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 02:01 PM

Did you sing Australian songs before you emigrated WAV?

Did you get your degree on line or in person?

Just curious

Stu

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 02:02 PM

"I thought the dancing and fiddle playing were great but the other (drum kit, etc.) noise unfortunate pollution."

Happily, the "noise" (FYI, it's not a drum kit in this case but largely electronica) is one of the things that gets loads of kids to engage with traditional dance and say, "I want to do that!" - even when they're not dancing with fire.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 03:37 PM

Fantastic video. Kieran Hebden, a.k.a. Four Tet, is quite an interesting guy; he's steeped in 70s Revival folk, & has said that the sound he wants to 'get' in his work is the sound of an album like Basket of Light (only without the folk songs, or indeed any songs). He's got no interest in the tradition as a performer, but I think he's going to lead a lot of people to it, almost despite himself.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 06:05 PM

2 uni's Stu - Adelaide and NSW; and yes - including Waltzing Matilda, of course.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 06:36 PM

One of your tech certs is in Waltzing Matilda?!

Blimey - I want a PhD in Maria Martin.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 03:20 AM

Here are some examples which developed from the same ancient traditions that morris comes from, via Northern Iberia, that is.
http://www. youtube.com/watch?v=76V1LAqDY8U&feature=related

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 03:21 AM

continued
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Gkf0-BnMbQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GV871hxisqw

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 03:22 AM

And just for the heck of it, this is an example of 'bland, musical soup.' =)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGFJ5ihKZeE
Look at their faces, it's a most unfamilair look Wav, yes, a rare anthropological moment, they are having FUN!!!!


Anyway, I nominate Wav to represent England culturally during the Olympics. Why, you ask? Well most people's conception of England is of odd characters with phoney accents, usually Cockney, but Wav'll do nicely.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: s&r
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 06:20 AM

Dear Granma

I haven't got any naughty pictures of your younger days, unless I knew you by another name. Have you ever been to France?

WAV and frenzy in the same sentence is I feel oxymoronic - just a tad.


Love Stu

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: s&r
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 06:29 AM

Why 2 universities WAV?

Were you a mature student?

Just un petit curious

Stu

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 07:48 AM

OK Chaps.

Just done an audit.
Nat Istrument thread...........563
Walkaboutverse2 thread.........703
5000 Morris Dancer thread......724

Grand total...................1990 posts
Has he changed his bizarre view on life?
Is he going to?
Are we wasting our time?

Thats enough publicity for this person. (I say person, not Singer, Musician, Poet, That would be too demeaning for those of us who attempt in whatever way we see fit, to further ALL of the Arts that we are involved with).

Who else on Mudcat has enjoyed this much oxygen of publicity?
We are all suckers.
Lets all go and talk to some of the many interesting and erudite people on other threads, and leave Wav to his weird world.

(you could say "Mudcat is WAV-ing goodbye"...with apologies to Sooty!)

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 08:13 AM

"Yes, Golightly, Live Aid was "real music" to the extent that they played live, rather than miming; but they were singing their verses in the framework of American, NOT English, genres such as pop and rock."

Wav, why are pop and rock AMERICAN genres, yet morris and ECD, from Spain and France respectively, are ok?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 08:20 AM

Volg Old mate.
Give up...Give up....Please.
There is no point.
FTR, I worked on Live Aid, and yes indeed it was all LIVE.
Astonishing for the technology at the time.
There was even talk of having donkeys to revolve the stage, at one point.
Health and Safety put an end to that idea!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 02:38 PM

Dear Gran - I was ignorant of that BEFORE attending folk clubs here in NE England: but I'd still call WM an Australian song...wouldn't you?
Stu, speaking of frenzy, I got the wanderlust part way through my BA.
"Anyway, I nominate Wav to represent England culturally during the Olympics" (Volgadon)...mic technique might need a bit work, but I wouldn't say no!..."Homeword Bound"..."I vow to thee, my country"..."WALKABOUT WITH MY PEN"!!..?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 05:01 PM

No no, Gran. - I was being lighthearted, of course, following Volgadon's bit of lightheartedness (hence the !) but there is an E. trad. called "Homeward Bound"; but I won't call you "deluded".

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 05:35 PM

Paul Simon must have polluted America's own good culture by introducing ENGLISH melodies.....

I see my Mary Poppins dig went quite over his head...

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 05:57 PM

"Mistaken" and "deluded" are very different. Granny was mistaken; you, Wavey Davey, on every level, are deluded.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 08:00 PM

Rock is an American genre? I was under the impression that four guys from Liverpool had something to do with that. And almost all the rock singers I heard early on had English accents.

Morris dancing? Morris dancing?

Whatever happened to the Funky Chicken?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: catspaw49
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 11:54 PM

The funky chicken was only recently released from the hospital after being molested by Wavylimpdick and his Momma. The chicken put up a good fight but Momma held the poor thing down while Wavy had his way with her......and what a strange way that was! Decorum prohibits the full telling but Viagra figured into it as well as a broom and a large eggplant........................

Spaw

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 04:36 AM

Don - again, The Beatles were indeed very good at COPYING THE AMERICAN GENRE WE CALL ROCK; and, if you hear or read interviews, you'll find that they suggest so in mentioning those that influenced them. At the same time, of course, other (and, I would say, wiser) English were getting into their own good culture - the folk revivial of the 60s.
Catwpaw - go back to your kitty litter and purge your foul fowl-feathered mouth.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 06:11 AM

It formed part of THEIR own good culture, Wav. Sailors and passengers in Liverpool would bring back with them fun music they heard in the States. Not globalisation, just because having fun.
Why is morris different?
Also those far wiser English were just as heavily influenced by American music, including rock.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 08:33 AM

Leaving of Liverpool was, I believe, first collected in New York...Even in the 18th and 19th centuries, folk music was being swapped and exchanged throughout the maritime world - that means COMING IN as well as going out.

But in WAV's Pretendy England, none of that ever happened. Everyone stayed in their little homogenous English box, and liked it.

You want to visit the Museum of Slavery in Liverpool, WAV, and see just how culturally diverse that city was long before the Beatles ever got there. It puts paid to all of your notions of a homogenous England pre-1950.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 12:30 PM

...You know that I know of such history, but, as I keep coming back to, given all that history, WHAT'S BEST FROM NOW ON? The latest was just on channel 5 news - "High School Musical", whose cultural elements will be blindly copied by English children who could, rather, be clog, country of morris dancing, etc.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 01:14 PM

Wav, how do you explain that morris nearly died out long before the corrupting influence of High School Musical (which I've never seen and don't plan to).

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 01:56 PM

WAV, living in his ideal England.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 02:05 PM

Dunno, looks more like Fu Manchu.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 02:19 PM

Don't know, Donno - where's the pot of Hedera helix, the English flute, the lawn tennis racket, the stottie stuffed with chips, the anthology of English verse, the die-hard sense of humour!
:-)>

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Gervase
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 06:02 PM

Twonk!
I'm tempted to splutter "You couldn't make it up," but this absurd character seems to be a wonder of self-invention and poodle-faking. Probably has a longing for a pith helmet and pugaree.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 07:05 PM

Gad, sir! I still say that you are the incarnation of

Colonel Blimp!

"England for the English!!"
(and the occasional vagrant Australian)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 07:14 PM

By the way, I'm not sure that the tenor recorder ("English flute" according to David) is really quite appropriate for playing folk music. Here is a tenor recorder in its natural habitat:    CLICKY

More of same, but working with its own species:    CLICKY again.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 03:57 AM

How dare you question it's appropriateness, Don! It has ENGLISH in the title!!!!!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 05:05 AM

Maybe this should be on the other thread, but in respect of the above I've just picked up a first edition of Edgar Hunt's The Recorder and its Music (Herbert Jenkins, 1962), which gives but a single instance of English Flute, and this in a table of names by which the instrument was known. A similar table is reproduced Here, giving the historical window when this name was current, but no indication of just how widespread or common the term might have been.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 05:16 AM

The tenor recorder is every bit as traditional as the English pipes, the English horn, the English bass horn and the English harp, and it's just as appropriate for playing English traditional music.

Not The Right Idea At All Dept:

English mandolin: See French mandolin.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 06:30 AM

Thanks, Don - I like the latter, but, in the former, that particular English flute doesn't really cut-through hte ensemble. And the "English" in the title, Volgadon and IB, derives partly from the fact that it does indeed have a long-tailed tradition in England.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 06:51 AM

But is it MEANT to cut through?
And it's 'long-tailed' tradition in English is scarcely more than that of the guitar and the banjo, let alone the fiddle! You discriminate against the latter because they lack that in the title, thus exposing your shallowness.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 07:09 AM

Wavy is used to exposing himself. He was never arrested for it though since his victims were all laughing too much to press charges..............

Spaw

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 08:21 AM

And the "English" in the title, Volgadon and IB, derives partly from the fact that it does indeed have a long-tailed tradition in England.

The recorder had a long-tailed tradition throughout the whole of Europe, and by implication the European colonies, but not as a folk instrument. This fact Mr Hunt is most keen to stress in his book: Folk instruments with a whistle mouthpiece are to be found in so many parts of the world that one cannot point to a particular one and say 'this is the father of the recorder'. These folk instruments do, however, provide the rough information and experimental material from which a craftsman might, given suitable tools, make a recorder (Hunt, 1962, p. 24) and There can be little doubt that that the earliest extant recorders are craftsman-made art instruments which have left folk elements far behind. (ibid.). He does allow, however, that the name English Flute indicates the possibility of an English origin, and to distinguish it from the German (transverse) flute. Interesting to note that it was known in France as a Flute d'Angleterre a long time before it was known in England as an English Flute - but never as a folk instrument.   

Whatever the case, it's all fascinating stuff, but if you bothered to do your research, WAV, you'd soon realise that it's always more complex (and more interesting) than you might have assumed, and that attaching any sort of emblematic Nationalistic status to anything is just a waste of time. But what are facts to the agenda-driven nationalist but wretched inconveniences to be bent, at last, to his will?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 01:41 PM

On another thread (arguably misplaced above the line), TheSnail wrote:

I will do everything I can (and as I reported above, already have) to keep English nationalism out of English folk music.

I'll sign up to that.

I actually have a certain amount of time for English nationalism, when that's understood as the democratic and inclusive nationalism of a polyglot multi-ethnic nation with a long and glorious history of cultural mongrelisation. Needless to say, this means that I have no time whatsoever for David's reactionary fantasies of racial and cultural purity. But, more importantly, I believe that English folk music deserves to thrive for its own sake: singing, playing and passing along the music of the traditions of these islands is a worthy goal in its own right, as well as being some of the best fun you can have with your clothes on. Yoking the music to any political agenda not only does it a disservice here and now but makes it less likely that it'll survive - all the more so when the agenda in question stinks as badly as David's.

So, let it be said. I will do everything I can to keep English nationalism out of English folk music.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 02:01 PM

IB - I was aware of what you just posted...I did a lot of reading, during my first year of folk, before the recorder/English flute became my main instrument of choice (keys also).
Pip - I obviousy get quite a lot of criticism here, but at least most don't put words in my mouth the way you do, and just did again:
I have NEVER said "racial purity"; and, on nationalism, I've repeatedly said this - "nationalism with conquest IS bad; but nationalism with eco-travel and fair-trade (via the UN) is good for humanity" (here, e.g.).

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 02:15 PM

"I did a lot of reading, during my first year of folk,"

Given the skewed conclusions you've leapt to, I'd be very interested to know which books you ploughed through. Bibliography?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: s&r
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 02:23 PM

Not me this time WAV

Stu

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 02:31 PM

It "doesn't scan" with the rest of it left out, Ruth/Joan, but I meant reading on instruments, before choosing the recorder/English flute: several websites, "The Guinness Book of Music"; the chapter on music in a Webster's encyclopedia, another encyclopedia of instruments from Newcastle library, etc.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 02:38 PM

most don't put words in my mouth the way you do, and just did again:

No, I didn't. I'm perfectly well aware that you've never said "I believe in racial and cultural purity", and I didn't suggest that you have. However, it's obvious that you do believe in racial and cultural purity - how else can you explain your references to England being 'more English' fifty years ago (before all that 'mass immigration') or your comments about the problems of having more than one culture under one state law?

Anyway, none of this has anything to do with music, and long may the two remain separate. Speaking for myself, I will do everything I can to keep English nationalism out of English folk music.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 02:53 PM

Not me either, Waveydavey.

So, did you actually read any books on folk music? On the folk revival? On anything to do with your chosen topic? There are thousands about, and many are easily accessible through things like inter-library loan.

I presume that when you wrote essays for your BA in humanities, you would have chosen texts specific to your topic, and not used generalist encyclopedias as your only references. So where's all your folk-based study, given that this was an "intensive 4-year period"?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 03:05 PM

It "doesn't scan" with the rest of it left out, Ruth/Joan, but I meant reading on instruments, before choosing the recorder/English flute: several websites, "The Guinness Book of Music"; the chapter on music in a Webster's encyclopedia, another encyclopedia of instruments from Newcastle library, etc.

Incredibly SHALLOW sources. Wav, I don't have any formal education yet, but if I were your professor, I would flunk you for poor academic skills. Mind you, we all know your aversion to in-depth studies, makes it harder to make vague, sweeping anouncements. Details do so get in the way.

Here's a question, does imperialism for you mean imposing one's culture and set of ideas on someone else?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 03:09 PM

We could get the EFDSS to set an exam for us both to sit, Ruth..? Even with your home-town advantage, you may get a surprise. Either way, I do hope to visit CSH one day.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 03:21 PM

Oh the pompousness, oh the pretenstiousness, poor tempores and mores.
Are you seriously suggesting that you know more about folk music because you have read some general music encyclopedias, watched some beeb and listened to 'Voices' that you know more than someone who has been part of the scene for years and works at THE largest center in Britain for the study and promotion of folk music?

Here's a question, does imperialism for you mean imposing one's culture and set of ideas on someone else?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 03:35 PM

"...that particular English flute doesn't really cut-through hte sic ensemble."

It's not supposed to "cut-through," David, it's supposed to blend. Essentially, it is a duet between the tenor recorder and the viola da gamba, backed by the other instruments.

It is not supposed to dominatel the ensemble. Despite it's being an "English flute."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 03:38 PM

"dominate," that is.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 03:57 PM

Honestly, Volgadon, I know hardly anything compared to somebody like Don Firth, or Insane Beard, or my partner, who has, as I've said before, forgotten more than I'll ever know about English folk music. I don't actually work at CSH, I'm on the national council (which is the governing body) because I thought I had some practical skills and experience to offer.

The difference between me and the Wavey One is that I'm well aware of my limitations, and of how lucky I am to have such knowledgeable people around me. But I do have a nice collection of books (which I've actually read) that are specific to the history of English folk music and dance (and some on American folk, too), and I have my partner's vast folk library at my disposal, which I make use of regularly. Not to mention a substantial CD collection which includes the entire Voice of the People series.

So in short, Wavey, I'd wipe the floor with you in such a competition. But that's not because I'm particularly knowledgeable, it's because of the staggering depth of your ignorance, which you demonstrate here with every post.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Gervase
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 04:20 PM

Guys, why are you feeding the ego of this ludicrous poseur? Surely one glance at his poetry should tell you that he's got Van Gogh's ear for scansion, while his postings reveal a narrow-mindedness that is breathtaking. Almosst as breathtaking as his thick skin.
So stop supporting his onanism and stop posting.
Remember, every time you post, WAV loses another rod or cone from his retina and another hair grows on his palm...

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: s&r
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 06:27 PM

I think Ruth that I share your regard for the skills and knowledge of so many on this forum. More than anything else it is WAV's ignorance of the level of education and expertise that he dismisses out of hand that is so bloody rude

Stu

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 04:42 AM

IB - I was aware of what you just posted...I did a lot of reading, during my first year of folk

Bollocks, WAV - if you were aware of it, you wouldn't hold such ludicrous opinions, let alone demonstrate so consistently just how little you're aware of anything. So how much reading did actually you do in your first year of folk? How much have you done since? Not a fat lot evidently since you're still blogging the same tired old conclusions you reached in you folk year zero, viz:

(ORIGINAL) MESSAGE EMAILED-OUT DURING 2005

To many online folkies:

Folk music IS meant to be local/regional/national. Our forebears were loyal to this when they formed the English Folk Dance and Song Society, as have been contemporary Scots by forming a Degree in Scottish Traditional Music. Furthermore, I'm told several of our earliest folk-clubs strongly encouraged participants to select from their own culture.

My usual and only complaint with our present English-folk scene is the lack of loyalty to our own good tradition. There are more than enough good English songs, tunes and dances (plus instruments) for anyone's lifetime – let's appreciate others but perform our own!

More broadly: nationalism with conquest is bad; but nationalism with eco-travel and fair-trade (via the U.N.) is good for humanity.

Yours Faithfully,

David Franks

This from your latest myspace blog update. No new insights, no fresh appraisals, no evidence of any learning, just the same old rhetoric, year in, year out, stuck in the rut of your relentless ignorance on every last fucking thing you claim to hold sacred.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Neovo
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 05:09 AM

Back to the 5000 Morris Dancers - I hear the Morris Federation and the Ring are stock piling bells. Are they trying to corner the market before the Olympic organisers realise they need bells for their 5000 dancers? Or do they know that Gordon Brown is to declare that bells instead of pounds sterling is to be our new currency in a last ditch attempt to resolve the current financial crisis?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Joseph P
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 05:43 AM

Are we going to have Morris Dancers of different types, or all of one type? I cant join in if it becomes processional I'm afraid. Maybe we should divide the country into independent socio-economical entities based on local dance tradition.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 12:29 PM

Waltzing Matilda is a classic example of cultural cross-pollination

Off-thread, but apparently Banjo Patterson was staying with one of my (English) partner's (Australian) ancestors when he wrote Waltzing Matilda. She gave him the (probably English) tune he set the words to.

At least that's the family legend...

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 12:53 PM

Hate to perhaps whizz on the family legend but Click Here for a wonderful old thread on "Waltzing Matilda".......Also check the other threads at the top of it for additional info and also be sure to view the page linked by Joe Offer in about the third or fourth post.

On the 'Cat there is no such thing as off post since most threads go off the main topic right away!

Spaw

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 04:11 PM

Thanks for the link 'Spaw - which confirms the family legend, as it is indeed Christina Macpherson who is referred to when the tale is told....

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 10:20 PM

WOW!!! Now that's great. I wish I had a dime for every "Famous relative/historical relative" type thing that I've heard over the years which have turned out to be pure hogwash. So its good when one comes in right.

Spaw

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 07:06 AM

IB - that was info. on the recorder that I DID know of, from the reading I did before finally making it my instrument of choice.
And on that myspace blog, I do indeed keep that original message there, and vary the "MONTHLY MESSAGE".
"Back to the 5000 Morris Dancers - I hear the Morris Federation and the Ring are stock piling bells. Are they trying to corner the market before the Olympic organisers realise they need bells for their 5000 dancers? Or do they know that Gordon Brown is to declare that bells instead of pounds sterling is to be our new currency in a last ditch attempt to resolve the current financial crisis?" (Neova)...well, one thing from IB that WAS new to me, Neova, is that, according to Wiki., England's National Musical Instrumnet is the bell (see thread above, of same name).
Joseph - I heard, and mentioned above, that different ceremonial venues around London are planned for: so hopefully that will give a guernsey to more than one form of Morris.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Joseph P
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 08:18 AM

The bell is is not a national instrument, but ringing changes on tuned Church bells emerged in England, although you can now hear change ringing around the world. A trip to Whitechapel Bell Foundry is worth it to anyone interested in bells and that sort of thing. I wouldnt want to dance with a church bell strapped round my ankle though, and I dont think the church bell would make a very good accompaniament to folk songs, would it?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 09:04 AM

Oh I dunno' about that Joseph......Have you heard Wavy sing? A church bell might just drown out the bellering and off-key sound of his voice.

Spaw

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: melodeonboy
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 09:28 AM

"Back to the 5000 Morris Dancers - I hear the Morris Federation and the Ring are stock piling bells. Are they trying to corner the market before the Olympic organisers realise they need bells for their 5000 dancers? Or do they know that Gordon Brown is to declare that bells instead of pounds sterling is to be our new currency in a last ditch attempt to resolve the current financial crisis?"

As the values of stocks, shares and most other investments are likely to fall considerably over the next year or so, MoneyMan recommends moving a substantial part of your portfolio into bells. Their price has stabilised and the ongoing requirement for them by Morris dancers indicates strong future demand without the likelihood of major fluctuations as seen in the gold market.

Please be aware that the value of your investment in bells can go down as well as up and you may end up with insufficient quantities for your Morris side.

For further guidance, refer to the latest MoneyMan investment guide: "How to make a Killing in Bells". Available from all good bookstores, £25. (Part exchange with a playable pokerwork box considered).

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 10:14 AM

That's a ringing endorsement there melodeonboy, if you don't mind my chiming in.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 12:42 PM

Joseph P and Spaw - I've thought about the bell lyre...but it does seem a tad angelic for folk songs.
...And boy O boy, spare bells attached to melodeons may even appeel to some!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 03:19 PM

"No new insights, no fresh appraisals, no evidence of any learning, just the same old rhetoric, year in, year out, stuck in the rut of your relentless ignorance on every last fucking thing you claim to hold sacred."

You know, IB, I'm reminded of a story I once heard:

A man sits in his music room playing the cello. That is, he presses a string down on the fingerboard and holds it there, then saws back and forth with the bow. His left hand never moves. He keeps playing the same note. For hours. In fact, he has been playing this one note now for years. Needless to say, as he does this, for many hours every day, his wife busies herself in other parts of the house (lest she just plain loses it and brains him with a piece of heavy crockery!).

One day, a friend invites them to a symphony concert. He declines, saying that he has to stay home and play the cello. She, having never been to such a concert, accepts.

Later that night, she returns home and goes to her husband's studio, where he is still sawing away relentlessly on his one note.

"David," she said (calling him David because that was his name), "you should have come to the concert! They played a lot of music, but the featured artist was the famous cello virtuoso, Yo Yo Ma! They did a Haydn cello concerto, and he was moving his left hand all over the neck of the cello! His fingers were flying! He was playing all kinds of differnt notes! It was beautiful! Why don't you play like that? Like Yo Yo Ma? Why do you just keep playing that—one [grits teeth to avoid using the obscene adjective she has in mind] note—over and over . . . and over . . . [struggles to regain control as she verges on hysteria] . . . all the time!??"

Still sawing away on his one note, David looks up at his wife and says, "He's looking for it. I've found it!"

Don Firth

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 05:13 PM

On that note, Don, probably D, I'm off to bed...where I won't be counting sheep or visualizing and sequence of noteS!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 06:27 PM

D. Good note. I use it myself.

Among others.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 10:29 PM

Odd....I thought Walkydilly sang in H flat..........

Spaw

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 05:32 AM

H for Haha - and, for what is's worth, I got enough ZZZs last night.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 11:49 AM

Why do you keep capitalising the 's' on notes?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 02:16 PM

Volgadon - did you get enough ZZZs?...Don's comical story was about someone who only played the one note.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 02:34 PM

You see, Wav, were you to write 'where I won't be counting sheep or visualizing a sequence of note!' then I would assume that there was something special about the sequence.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 02:44 PM

Where has all the great poetry gone?

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 03:03 PM

Young girls picked them everyone.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 05:01 PM

"You see, Wav, were you to write 'where I won't be counting sheep or visualizing a sequence of note!' then I would assume that there was something special about the sequence" (Volgadon)...I won't be visualizing the sequence of notes that form the Morris tune "English Country Gardens" - I just remember the first note C', and the key C, and hope for the best.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 05:49 PM

I was not talking about English Country Gardens, I was talking about grammar, thankee.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 05:25 AM

...eeek!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Mr Happy
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 10:33 AM

Having done 'Bedes World' you could try here http://www.ukrides.info/gw.htm next!

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 11:53 AM

No - not my glass of Lindisfarne mead, Mr Happy.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Master Baiter
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 12:19 PM

I found the following article, a letter to a parliamentary official, about "Sir Alf R." who I assume to be ?????? Perhaps catspaw49 wasn't kidding about the dog molesting as you see. Locations and date make it probable. Surprises me that more wasn't made of it at the time.







Dear Lord Richland:

        I am a board certified criminal prosecutor In Ipswich with over 12 years experience and approximately 150 trials to my credit. I write in support of Rule of Law #744 and in order to advocate for the necessity of this new law, I will start briefly by explaining one such case I have handled recently in this jurisdiction.



        In late 1964, I prosecuted the case of QB v. Sir Alf R., Circuit Case Number 2005-CF-3027. Sir R. had been charged by law enforcement with Felony Animal Cruelty, though the charge if available should have been Bestiality or Sexual Activity Involving an Animal. I will not go into the disgusting facts of the case other than to say Sir Alf R. was having sexual relations with his male dog, an English Cocker Spaniel. The complainant in the case called the police when she observed Sir R. fondling the dog. I will leave off further discussion by simply stating that in subsequent discussions with law enforcement, Sir Alf R. spoke freely about his regular sexual activities with his dog and said he would take the dog for a walk prior to sex to "prevent fecal impact." I have attached a copy of the probable cause (with the complainant's name omitted) so the facts can speak for themselves. As you can see, law enforcement incorrectly advised Sir Alf R. that they were investigating bestiality and that "it was a felony crime."



        We did our best to pursue the case on the charge of Animal Cruelty but this charge was not the best vehicle to properly address the crimes of nature committed by this Defendant. On the charge of Felony Animal Cruelty, the prosecution is required to prove a defendant intentionally committed an act against an animal which resulted in the cruel death or excessive or repeated infliction of unnecessary pain or suffering. For Misdemeanor Animal Cruelty, the prosecution must show the person has caused the animal to be overworked, deprived of sustenance or shelter, or unnecessarily mutilates, kills or carries any animal in a cruel or inhumane manner. I can easily envision such a case of Bestiality being charged as Animal Cruelty before the trier of fact, be it a judge or a jury, and the Defense expert veterinarian testifying that although he finds "the Defendant's behavior shocking and disgusting, the animal was unharmed and otherwise well cared for." If such a case ever made it to trial, the resulting acquittal would be an easy lesson for the prosecutor to learn.



        Other than the tenuous charge of Animal Cruelty, the only other means of addressing this crime of nature would be as a questionable misdemeanor offense under Stat. Section 755.01 which adopts the Common Law of England. Like most civilized nations, our legal forbearers understandably saw fit to address bestiality in the criminal courts. If this theory of the law were pursued, prosecutors would be left to attempt to utilize ancient English Law to address this criminal conduct. Such a prosecutor would clearly have an uphill battle. Although case law provides for application of the Common Law of England in some situations, I can envision much mention of our Declaration of Independence and the fact that "we make our own laws here" during pretrial motion arguments. A resulting dismissal of the charges would be understandable under this scenario.



        What we often hear in the legal realm is that "if the Parliament wanted something to be a crime then they would have passed a law against it." Litigants can rarely argue that the failure to pass a law was merely a timing or funding issue or that it would have been passed if we did not have financial troubles. If the Parliament does anything, it should use a small portion of its time to pass one of the most unanimously uncontested laws in recent history. There cannot possibly be any rational opponent of this bill.



        It is unseemly that a person can knowingly sexually violate any animal of their choice and this does not, by itself, seem to be against the law without some type of creative and possibly tenuous prosecution. The most important consideration for the Committee to address, however, is the impact this crime of nature could have on humans.



        The clear status of our law at this point is that Parliament has not prohibited bestiality. Bestiality is currently legal. As shocking as this is for the public to learn when such cases come to light, it would be even more shocking for the public to discover that a proposed bill was actually before this PArliamentary Justice Committee and the Committee failed to take any action to move this forward.   Acting on such an uncontested issue should use minimal time and resources compared to the many other issues that remain contested or debatable before you.



                                                                Respectfully,

                                                                Michael J. Bauer

       Ipswich Solicitor

       December, 1966

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: s&r
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 09:27 AM

Don't understand it but it would make a fine poem

Stu

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 10:13 AM

LMAO MB.....I don't know where you got that but I may have been more right than I knew when I was joking about Ramsey.


Spaw

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 12:36 PM

Don't know what he thinks of Morris dancing, but Clive Woodward, who gave our Olympic athletes, as well as our WC winning rugby players, motivational talks, admires Alf Ramsey.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 12:43 PM

800

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Gervase
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 12:44 PM

800.
And what a pile of bollocks to stroke the ego of an imbecile.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: Gervase
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 12:45 PM

Bugger - too late!
Never mind, I'm sure WAV can keep wanking on long enough for me to bag the 1000.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 10:41 PM

"Don't know what he thinks of Morris dancing, but Clive Woodward, who gave our Olympic athletes, as well as our WC winning rugby players, motivational talks, admires Alf Ramsey."

Perhaps he too molests Cockers like Ramsey and admires his style. Or possibly they are old friends that your mother did "Twofers" for on a regular basis.

Spaw

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 05:54 AM

Unlike you Catspaw, they seem to keep off the likes of catnip.

Subject: RE: '5000 Morris Dancers'
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 09:08 AM

Admit it......I've seen your recorder "mouthing technique" on your website and you're jealous of those guys for their prowess with Cockers when you have been turned away by Yorkshire Terriers! I also hear it was Ramsey who had your mom and her favorite yak in a three-way where they both were ballin' the yak..........

Spaw