BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English

Subject: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: irishenglish
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 03:46 PM

I just saw this online. I'm not a golfer, but the Ladies Professional Golf Association has adopted a new policy that requires all golfers to speak English within two years of joining the association. Golfers will be tested and evalutated, and those who fail the test will be suspended. According to the LPGA, they have now 121 players from 26 different countries, including 45 from South Korea, and 15 from Sweden. As one person wrote on a messageboard on the page where I saw the article, soccer is played throughout the world and does not need a common language, so why should golf-a solitary sport by nature, require one? They say its because of the tie between pro golf, sponsors and such. To me, its a terrible precedent, and their reason for it, is not based on solid logic at all.

Subject: RE: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 03:49 PM

It sounds very exclusionary to me!

Subject: RE: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: Wesley S
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 04:01 PM

I figured it had to be a rumor - but check it out here - Golf

Subject: RE: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: PoppaGator
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 04:13 PM

My first reaction was negative, but after reading the article I can see the logic. This is apparently a reaction to loss of sponsorship. I'm sure all the woman golfers have a stake in any effort to improve members' ability to communicate with the folks holding the pursestrings, which for now means US-based multinational corporations.

This might set a precedent with unintended consequences. Maybe, in a half-century or so, everyone looking to make money in some similar field of endeavor wil be required to learn Chinese, like it or not! The Koreans won't like that development, either, nor will the habitually unilingual Americans.

Subject: RE: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 04:23 PM

Because of the nature and history of a sport, sometimes the lingo is based on a particular language. An example is fencing, in which the lingua franca is—er—French. Some words are Old French, sprinkled with Italian. But most fencers are familiar with the terms and tend to refer to, say, the fourth parry position as "quarte." The tidiest word for a quick answering thrust after parrying an opponent's attack is "riposte" (French, modification of Italian risposta, literally, answer, from rispondere to respond, from Latin respondçre. Date: 1707), as are most of the other terms in fencing. So a technical conversation between a couple of English or American fencers will sound to the uninitiated like a combination of English along with French and Italian gibberish.

I can see this sort of thing happening in all kinds of sports (and other fields, for that matter), but to insist that the practitioner of a particular sport learn to speak an entire language fluently just to be able to participate on the upper levels seems pretty draconian to me. And, as Kat says, "very exclusionary."

From Wikipedia:

The first game of golf for which records survive was played at Bruntsfield Links, in Edinburgh, Scotland, in A.D. 1456, recorded in the archives of the Edinburgh Burgess Golfing Society, now The Royal Burgess Golfing Society. The modern game of golf spread from Scotland to England and has now become a worldwide game, with golf courses in the majority of countries.

If the LPGA wants to require its members and participants to be fluent in one language, it strikes me that to be true to the origins of the game, the language should be Gaelic, with a strong Scots burr.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: irishenglish
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 04:26 PM

I take your point PoppaGator, but its not a team sport. They are worried about post tournament press conferences and other corporate events. I think all of the professional Japanese baseball players in the US have all had translators paid for by the team. That's a team decision, not MLB telling them to do so. Yes, they are trying to build up the sport here, but their explanation still smacks of insensitivity, and the reasons they gave, do not seem as if they were given with any thought to PR-ie, how they would sound to the public for issuing this decree.

Subject: RE: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: greg stephens
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 04:27 PM

Seems a bit draconic to me. Theyseem to be exclusive in other areas too...you dont really have to be a lady to play golf, any more than you have to speak English. What'll it be next...religion? Hair colour?

Subject: RE: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 04:33 PM

Apparently does not allow for a "hole in one's" vocabulary of English

Subject: RE: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: PoppaGator
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 04:53 PM

Part of the difference between team and individual sports is that professional teams, in the effort to win (because winning normally leads to higher revenues) need to hire players, and if a foreign player who can't speak the language will help them win, a team-owner will sign the player and lobby within the sport's governing body to soft-pedal any regulations that might limit or hinder that player's participation.

In golf, tennis, etc., every player is his/her own "team" and to a lesser extent, his/her own "owner." (Individual players don't weild the clout of team owners in representing their own interests because, for one thing, there are too many of them.) They don't have a Big Daddy running interference for them with the higher-ups governing the sport, protecting them from hostile press, providing companion/translators, etc.

The LPGA ruling body apparently believes that the English-language requirement will help PR, at least in the long run, by assuring that players will be able to answer questions and generally represent themselves competantly in an increasingly English-speaking word.

In the short run, they may be making a move that looks nasty and overbearing to the likes of some of us, but they may very well judge that private citizens with an abundance of sympathy for non-English speakers are not the constituency they need to please, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 04:53 PM

Does that mean that if American or English golfers wish to play in Japan, Korea, germany, france, spain etc etc etc that they will have to learn their respective languages?

What a load of old cobblers! I hope someone appeals. It must be in contravention of some form of employment or commerce law. It would never stand in any other field of enterprise let alone sport.

Subject: RE: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 05:06 PM

The FAA also requires all pilots of all countries to speak English when entering our air space.

Subject: RE: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: Peace
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 05:14 PM

Why not speak Swahili?

Subject: RE: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: Lox
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 05:16 PM

It makes sense that pilots and air traffic controllers speak a common language, and though it hurts my Irish heart to say it, it makes sense that English be that language as it is the most widely spoken language in the world (outside China).

That's a question of safety and practical necessity.

"Fore" is the only word golfers need to know in common - though in the case of some golfers I suppose a compulsory radio link to air traffic control might be justifiable ...

Subject: RE: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: irishenglish
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 05:22 PM

Big difference between landing a plane and endorsing golf balls, or answering how your putting has been off at a post tournament press conference though. I can want to speak English for the improvement (if I'm a top ranked golfer) of my career, but if I choose not to, who am I hurting in doing so? If all I am doing is playing a game that I'm good at,and I'm from South Korea, and I have no intention of becoming a US citizen, then why should I be forced to learn a language? In an individual sport, what I choose to say or do is based on one person-me. No other consequences. John Daly's been married, how many times, gotten into how many drunken brawls? Gambled away how much? Who's he hurting-only himself. I'm sure some stiff shirts will say he's a disgrace and all that, and they may be right, but if he makes the cut, what does it matter? No one is forcing him to behave-they may ask, but they can't force him. Should not be able to force someone to learn English as well.

Subject: RE: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 05:42 PM

Are we supposed to care?

a pox on the planet

Subject: RE: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: Escapee
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 12:41 AM

I like Peace's idea. If golfers had to speak Swahili it would be harder for them to bore the rest of us to tears yammering on about their inane pastime. Maybe Esperanto? Then they couldn't bother the Africans.

Subject: RE: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: Rowan
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 01:36 AM

In the short run, they may be making a move that looks nasty and overbearing to the likes of some of us, but they may very well judge that private citizens with an abundance of sympathy for non-English speakers are not the constituency they need to please, anyway.

Par for the course, then.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: Lox
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 05:52 AM

Further to the pox post,

I was reminded of this item which appeared on the news not so long ago.

Subject: RE: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: GUEST,fishin one
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 10:53 AM

Coming from the blue blooded redneck side of me this ruling is long over due. Keep in mind the LPGA notes they are loosing sponsors which will damn sure result in less prize money. I wonder why lady pro golfers come to the US to play. IT'S FOR BIG MONEY. Does anyone believe the sponsors are giving such huge amounts of money just for the hell of it. This is all about business and those sponsors expect their top clients to get opportunities to play in Pro AMS and rub elbows with somebody they can CONVERSE with.

Subject: RE: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: Cool Beans
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 01:34 PM

I'd like to see the same rule applied to the NFL and NBA, where nearly all the players are American-born and raised. And in the NHL all players should be required to speak Canadian.

(For those of you beyond North America, NFL is the National Football League, NBA is the National Basketball Association and NHL is the National Hockey League.)

Subject: RE: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: Peter T.
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 01:38 PM

Bazeball been berry berry good to me.

Subject: RE: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: PoppaGator
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 05:12 PM

NFL footballers are almost exclusively from the US (except for the occasional placekicker), and a plurality of NHL hockey players are Canadian, with ever-increasing numbers of Americans, Finns, Czechs, Russians, etc. The Canadians and Americans speak the same language, of course, more or less.

But basketball is become international faster than any other US pro sport. Almost every NBA team has a foreign national or two, or even three, mostly "Euros" but also a fair number of Argentines, and at least one very prominent Chinese.

And baseball, the former US "National Pastime," now employs almost as many Spanish-speaking Latin Americans as US citizens, along with increasing numbers of East Asians (mostly Japanese, but also Koreans and Taiwanese). Interest in baseball in those countries is healthy and growing, while it is dimininshing in the US. African-Americans, in particular, are very visibly abandoning baseball.

In baseball, most Latinos speak at least a little English, and most managers and coaches can handle at least elementary Espanol. But on the other hand, the language barrier is still a major problem for/with Japanese and other Asian players. Businessmen and academics from Japan almost universally make it a point to learn English quite well, and don't expect Westerners ~ especially Americans ~ to learn Japanese. However, not every ballplayer seems to have the inclination and/or ability to become functionally bilingual.

Subject: RE: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 10:50 PM

Absolutely right and proper. All foreign languages should be banned. Let them all speak Engrish. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: Rowan
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 11:16 PM

Does anyone believe the sponsors are giving such huge amounts of money just for the hell of it. This is all about business and those sponsors expect their top clients to get opportunities to play in Pro AMS and rub elbows with somebody they can CONVERSE with.

Ah! Now I understand. What the LPGA really wants players to speak is "$$$$" (probably with more following zeros than I can type), which is only a dialect of English rather than the language itself.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 05:14 AM

Engrish ...

Subject: RE: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 05:32 AM

LOL!

Subject: RE: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 08:01 AM

So this only applies to women golfers? Should be plenty of scope for lawyers here.

Subject: RE: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 01:07 PM

I was actually debating having a sex change operation and learning to play golf just so I could join the LPGA, but I draw the line at learning to speak English.

Subject: RE: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 06:10 AM

Oddly enough I can see a very valid reason for this, but for the life of me I cannot square it being applied only by the LPGA.

Any golfer during the course of a tournament can talk to anybody on the course he wishes to. At the same time there are certain things that he cannot to talk about to anybody other than his Caddy, or if playing in a Team event (Ryder Cup), his team mate and playing partner, or his non-playing Team Captain. To ensure that these rules are strictly adhered to it is simpler to insist on a common language rather than have a whole rake of course officials from different nationalities present at every tournament.

Subject: RE: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: Michael Harrison
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 02:59 AM

Well, I have always been under the impression that the LPGA was an
American organization that governed women's golf in the US, or maybe North America as a whole - is this true? If not, does anyone know what the jurisdiction of the LPGA is and how it interacts with other women's golf organizations around the planet?

My thinking is that the LPGA is at least US based and that the LPGA sponsored tournaments are supported by US corporations who are putting up big bucks for purses, advertising and other expenses that keep these players engaged in their leisurely lifestyle.

For those folks who don't care for the LPGA stance - have you ever noticed how the NBA has cracked down on the "thug" element in it's league - is that any different? The NFL has also begun to crack down on the "thug" players in it's league - is that any different? I don't think so - it's all about money and image, or is that image and money? Oh, well, I just had a couple of cents laying around and thought I'd toss 'em in. Cheers.

Subject: RE: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 10:53 AM

"...is that any different? There is a slight difference between penalising people for being thugs and doing the same because they don't speak English or some North American equivalent.

Subject: RE: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: ard mhacha
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 11:02 AM

On my walks past out local golf course the language used is not very ladylike, on one occasion I had to dodge a flying club launched by a disgruntled golfer.

Subject: RE: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: Michael Harrison
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 12:27 PM

McGrath of Harlow - I believe you missed the point.
The NBA, the NFL and the LPGA have a product; and, the essence of that product is the players who perform. With that thought, the players are expected to perform within certain guidelines. If part of those guidelines happen to be dealing with the public and the press, and you don't know the language - then you can't deal with the public and the press.

This is not a deep problem; again, it is money and image. I can assure you that if the majority of the golf tournaments were located in China then the LPGA would be asking them to speak Chinese. They didn't tell them they had to become republicans or baptists - they asked them to be able to communicate. Doesn't your employer do the same thing? Cheers.

Subject: RE: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 02:32 PM

The point is that there's a duty on a body like that to try to stop thuggishness, regardless of whether that helps "the product" sell.   Even if cutting it out made it less saleable - which might well be the case - that duty would remain. That's a difference that matters.

Subject: RE: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: GUEST,van
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 04:02 PM

Just as long as all English speakers don't have to speak golf.

Subject: RE: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 04:58 PM

Funny ... cuz I remember when I played golf as youth being told to shut up a lot ... I spoke english ...

... but then I'm not a lady ...

Generally, whilst playing, golfers utter one of three words of any interest to the crowd.

1. Yeeeaaahhhhh!

2. Nooooooooooo!

3. Foooooore!

(no - not 3-4 ... never mind ...)

The whole thing is utter insanity.

"To ensure that these rules are strictly adhered to it is simpler to insist on a common language rather than have a whole rake of course officials from different nationalities present at every tournament."

I was unaware that officials listened in to golfers conversations with their caddies etc ...

And if language is homogenised then does that mean players will be penalised for using their own language to talk to caddies?

and if english is only to be used on key issues then how do they know if players aren't saying one ting in English and another thing in their own language?

It all seems very messy and convoluted for a sport that involves hitting a ball into a hole.

Subject: RE: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: Michael Harrison
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 05:09 PM

There are times, when I ponder this world, that I just sit amazed at the fact that human beings ever accomplish anything of significance.
Cynicism, I guess. Cheers.

Subject: RE: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 05:23 PM

Hey now hold on there ...

... it was humans who thought to put instructions on a toothpick packet ...

... it was humans who invented chewing gum ...

... it was humans who designed the opening mechanism on milk cartons ...

Bow your head in Awe - heathen!!!

Subject: RE: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 06:09 PM

Does Anglo-Saxon count as English?

Subject: RE: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 03:26 AM

"I was unaware that officials listened in to golfers conversations with their caddies etc ..."

"does that mean players will be penalised for using their own language to talk to caddies?"

No in both cases, a golfer can talk to caddy about anything he or she choses, distance to target, wind effect, club selection, the line of a putt - In the course of a normal game the golfer would not be allowed to ask anyone other than his caddy about such things - to do so would be to break the rules of the game.

Subject: RE: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: MartinRyan
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 03:27 PM

I can see some sense in agreeing a common language or subset of same for, for example, planes approaching an airport - but it's hard to see the necessity in the context of beating a ball around a fenced-off area of ground!

More seriously (marginally): the move appears to be marketing led. It may actually be no more than a proxy for limiting the professional game to what the sponsors regard as attractive.

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 04:34 PM

Teribus,

"No in both cases, a golfer can talk to caddy about anything he or she choses, distance to target, wind effect, club selection, the line of a putt - In the course of a normal game the golfer would not be allowed to ask anyone other than his caddy about such things - to do so would be to break the rules of the game."

No stress, curiosity compels me to ask you to clarify your point so I understand it, how does that connect to the language thing?

I thought you were saying that a common language would make it easier for officials to monitor what golfers talk about?

Subject: RE: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 05:01 PM

Golfer in a match or stroke play event watches another player in his flight play a shot into a difficult green in difficult conditions.

Golfer speaking in a language other than English says, "Good shot, wonder what club he played" Member of the public in the gallery wishing to help his fellow countryman tells him in his own language what club was played. Nobody else is any the wiser - The Golfer has broken the rules of the game, unless someone else who understands the language has heard the exchange no-one is any the wiser.

If the common language on the course is english the situation never arises.

Subject: RE: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 06:24 PM

Ok - thanks for clarification.

I think you'll probably agree though that a golfer so unfocussed on his own game as to be influenced by the club choice of an opponent, with a different swing, different strengths on the course etc would be undermining his own game significantly.

And given that that is a small fraction of the other variables involved, I'm not convinced that that kind of linguistic skullduggery would be of that much use anyway.

My feeling about most players is that they prefer to trust their own judgement and their caddy's to the complete exclusion of anyone else and would, at worst, find comments from the crowd distracting - but even then only on a bad day when the concentration is weak.

I think the real solution to that problem though if it were to occur is to do what golf enthusiasts and players alike have been trying to achieve in vain ever since the game was first invented - get the crowd to shut the f*** up!

"Get in the hole" ... etc ... *sigh* ...

Subject: RE: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 06:28 PM

Big dollars and big sponsorship. When the winner gets his/her mug on TV they should be able to thank those sponsors in a language that the viewing public understands.
Anyone who ever watched a NASCAR race has seen this done to perfection.
Not only are athletes expected to play their game but they are expected to attend sponsors functions and do PR work unrelated to their ability to play the game. "Money "is spelled in English!
That all being said the system sucks!

Subject: RE: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 12:13 AM

The sad part of it is, at the end of the day it's all about money, and not all about playing golf.

Subject: RE: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: Lox
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 04:36 PM

Teribus,

I've been thinking about your point and I think I have a possible scenarion that could be realistic.

Player A's caddy has done his homework and knows about the water hazard on the other side of the hill, out of sight, between the player and the green.

Player B's caddy for some reason has neglected to inform player B of the danger.

Player B questions in his own language the choice of Player A's shot.

A crowd member, overhearing it, suggests that the water hazard could have something to do with it.

Player B's caddy suddenly says "oh yeah - I knew there was something I needed to tell you" or some such ...

Player B modifies choice of shot accordingly.

Player B sacks caddy for not being thorough enough.

Subject: RE: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 06:39 PM

Also Player B gets penalised two strokes if game is strokeplay or disqualified if matchplay (IIRC)

Subject: RE: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 09:20 PM

Having grown up in the State of Maine I'm not sure I can speak English. What "English" are they talking about?

Fortunately for all, I seldom have appeared on a golf course with my tennis racket.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: LPGA says:All Golfers must speak English
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 09:47 PM

They're talking about Down East English, Charley.