Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2] [3] [4]


definition of a ballad

Related threads:
Still wondering what's folk these days? (161)
Folklore: What Is Folk? (156)
Traditional? (75)
New folk song (31) (closed)
What is a kid's song? (53)
What is a Folk Song? (292)
Who Defines 'Folk'???? (287)
Popfolk? (19)
What isn't folk (88)
What makes a new song a folk song? (1710)
Does Folk Exist? (709)
Definition of folk song (137)
Here comes that bloody horse - again! (23)
What is a traditional singer? (136)
Is the 1954 definition, open to improvement? (105)
Folklore: Folk, 1954 definition? (133)
So what is *Traditional* Folk Music? (409)
'Folk.' OK...1954. What's 'country?' (17)
Folklore: Define English Trad Music (150)
What is Folk Music? This is... (120)
What is Zydeco? (74)
Traditional singer definition (360)
Is traditional song finished? (621)
1954 and All That - defining folk music (994)
BS: It ain't folk if ? (28)
No, really -- what IS NOT folk music? (176)
What defines a traditional song? (160) (closed)
Folklore: Are 'What is Folk?' Threads Finished? (79)
How did Folk Song start? (57)
Should folk songs be sung in folk clubs? (129)
What is The Tradition? (296) (closed)
What is Blues? (80)
What is filk? (47)
What makes it a Folk Song? (404)
Article in Guardian:folk songs & pop junk & racism (30)
Does any other music require a committee (152)
Folk Music Tradition, what is it? (29)
Trad Song (36)
What do you consider Folk? (113)
Definition of Acoustic Music (52)
What is Folk? Is RAP the NEw Folk? (219)
Threads on the meaning of Folk (106)
Does it matter what music is called? (451)
What IS Folk Music? (132)
It isn't 'Folk', but what is it we do? (169)
Giving Talk on Folk Music (24)
What is Skiffle? (22)
Folklore: Folk, Pop, Trad or what? (19)
What is Folk? (subtitled Folk not Joke) (11)
Folklore: What are the Motives of the Re-definers? (124)
Is it really Folk? (105)
Folk Rush in Where Mudcat Fears To Go (10)
A new definition of Folk? (34)
What is Folk? IN SONG. (20)
New Input Into 'WHAT IS FOLK?' (7)
What Is More Insular Than Folk Music? (33)
What is Folk Rock? (39)
'What is folk?' and cultural differences (24)
What is a folk song, version 3.0 (32)
What is Muzak? (19)
What is a folk song? Version 2.0 (59)
FILK: what is it? (18)
What is a Folksinger? (51)
BS: What is folk music? (69) (closed)
What is improvisation ? (21)
What is a Grange Song? (26)


dick greenhaus 02 Sep 08 - 12:10 PM
GUEST,Guest 02 Sep 08 - 12:16 PM
Big Al Whittle 02 Sep 08 - 12:46 PM
The Sandman 02 Sep 08 - 12:50 PM
The Sandman 02 Sep 08 - 12:53 PM
BB 02 Sep 08 - 03:04 PM
Big Al Whittle 02 Sep 08 - 04:23 PM
Steve Gardham 02 Sep 08 - 04:42 PM
the button 02 Sep 08 - 04:54 PM
Big Al Whittle 02 Sep 08 - 04:54 PM
The Sandman 02 Sep 08 - 05:08 PM
Steve Gardham 02 Sep 08 - 05:17 PM
the button 02 Sep 08 - 05:19 PM
dick greenhaus 02 Sep 08 - 05:28 PM
the button 02 Sep 08 - 05:33 PM
Big Al Whittle 02 Sep 08 - 05:40 PM
The Sandman 02 Sep 08 - 05:47 PM
GUEST,GUEST, Gerard 02 Sep 08 - 05:50 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Sep 08 - 03:31 AM
The Sandman 03 Sep 08 - 04:21 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Sep 08 - 04:57 AM
dick greenhaus 03 Sep 08 - 03:40 PM
Steve Gardham 03 Sep 08 - 04:00 PM
The Sandman 03 Sep 08 - 04:08 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Sep 08 - 05:57 PM
Rowan 03 Sep 08 - 09:02 PM
dick greenhaus 03 Sep 08 - 11:01 PM
Malcolm Douglas 04 Sep 08 - 12:12 AM
Snuffy 04 Sep 08 - 04:06 AM
The Sandman 04 Sep 08 - 04:32 AM
Brian Peters 04 Sep 08 - 05:59 AM
Dave the Gnome 04 Sep 08 - 07:41 AM
The Sandman 04 Sep 08 - 07:52 AM
Brian Peters 04 Sep 08 - 08:21 AM
dick greenhaus 04 Sep 08 - 09:33 AM
The Sandman 04 Sep 08 - 10:14 AM
Brian Peters 04 Sep 08 - 10:39 AM
The Sandman 04 Sep 08 - 01:06 PM
Steve Gardham 04 Sep 08 - 01:57 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Sep 08 - 03:02 PM
Brian Peters 04 Sep 08 - 03:16 PM
Brian Peters 04 Sep 08 - 03:21 PM
The Sandman 04 Sep 08 - 04:10 PM
Steve Gardham 04 Sep 08 - 04:39 PM
The Sandman 04 Sep 08 - 04:56 PM
dick greenhaus 04 Sep 08 - 05:50 PM
Snuffy 04 Sep 08 - 07:25 PM
Malcolm Douglas 04 Sep 08 - 09:19 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Sep 08 - 03:51 AM
The Sandman 05 Sep 08 - 04:56 AM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum Child
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:













Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:10 PM

"It's got 99 verses, I'd like to explain
That I learned them this morning with infinite pain
And I'll mumble the ones I've forgotten again...
And it's not what I sing when I'm Sober"

(Dave Diamond, Folksinger's Lament)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:16 PM

Seems to me that a definition of the ballad is connected to the circumstances. The Ballad sessions at Whitby and Sidmouth this year used a 'working' definition of 'a song that could act as a screenplay to a movie'. This resulted in these sessions having a generally high number of Child ballads although contributors also sang broadside material. This decision making seems to have been in response to the working definition.
Now my personal viewpoint is that a classic ballad is structured using formulaic patterns and language. They seem to be journalistic and, far from merely 'telling a story' they involve complex muli-layered plots. The linguistic devices used suggest that many were originally oral compositions. The great classic ballads have structures which suggest a sense of 'school' of writing/composition. Broadside ballads lack these structures and linguistic devices and reflect more of the individual writers personality than the more formulaic 'big ballads'.
Coleridge's 'Ancient Mariner' is a poem which does not use ballad structures or conventions despite it's 'ballad-like' rhyming pattern.
All of this is only useful in an academic analysis, in a ballad session, the working definition above makes more sense.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:46 PM

well actually i have changed my mind about all this.

I am willing to concede that all of you are probably completely right about everything, and I was completely wrong.

i was at Fylde this weekend, and I suddenly realised that actually I am very isolated in folk music. No bugger else is doing anything remotely like what I do, and this should tell me something. If that had been an election, I would have lost my deposit!

I got it wrong somewhere, I'm not sure it matters where. But my ideas must have been very mistaken somewhere along the line. sorry about the fuss I made over this and various other subjects.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:50 PM

and the we have Lord Randall,generally accepted as a ballad,that takes an awful long time,to tell us he has died of poisoning.
not really a story.
in fact in my opinion the one ballad that is a waste of time,but that just my opinion.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:53 PM

WLD,If we all sangexactly the same songs the scene would get pretty boring.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: BB
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 03:04 PM

Dick, The Prickly Bush has the same effect on me as Lord Randall does on you - I'd rather have Lord Randall to that any time!

Barbara


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 04:23 PM

i like both of those, but I can't stand Sheath and Knife. Not over keen on Tam Lin.

having said all that, it really does depend on who is singing it. wouldn't you agree? sometimes someone can open up a song for you. Tim laycock when he was with Magic lantern opened up Long Lankin for me. And recently Brian Peters version of The House Carpenter made me like a song that i had detested for decades.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 04:42 PM

'far from merely 'telling a story' they involve complex muli-layered plots'. Can you please give us an example, Guest, guest? I must be missing something. The only complex, multi-layered plots I can think of are those that have been concocted by the antiquarians. The vast majority you can write the plot out on the back of a box of matches.

'The great classic ballads have structures which suggest a sense of 'school' of writing/composition.' This interests me. I too feel this. In fact I go along with the school of thought that thinks a large number of the 'classic' ballads were put together by antiquarians and collectors of the 18th-early 19th centuries.

'Lord Randal' and the 'Maid Freed from the Gallows'. Whilst I agree with the lack of explicit plot here there is plenty of implicit plot.
Child largely included them for their ballad-like formulae and their relationship to other fuller European versions. The Maid Freed is also found in cantefable form where it is only a small part of a really complex supernatural plot.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: the button
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 04:54 PM

It's the lack of layers that I find most appealing, to be honest. Kind of like the difference between Graham Greene (who just tells the story, and lets you fill in the complexities of motivation for yourself) and Thomas Hardy, who is forever poking his head through the narrative and telling you what it all means.

This means that -- even though some of them are long -- a lot of ballads move along at a cracking pace*. Some of them are almost cinematic in the way they shift from one scene to another, or even flash forward to key stages in the story. Think of,

At the age of sixteen, he was a married man,
At the age of seventeen, he was the father of a son,
At the age of eighteen, his grave was growing green,

for instance.

* Lord Randall excepted, of course. Why didn't they just shoot him? ;-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 04:54 PM

How would Franklin come out of this reckoning. After all he was quite contemporary in relative terms?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 05:08 PM

Franklin was an incompetent.,but the song is fairly good.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 05:17 PM

Right on the button, Nigel.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: the button
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 05:19 PM

Cheers, Steve. I was a bit wary of looking like preferring Graham Greene to Thomas Hardy in front of my former English teacher, though.

;-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 05:28 PM

Why is it that every thread involving a definition degenerates into one about what individual posters like (or don't like)?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: the button
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 05:33 PM

De gustibus non est disputandum, innit.

Some people like something, other people don't. Any discussion as to why can't get past this basic fact.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 05:40 PM

yes but is Franklin a ballad?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 05:47 PM

my initial reaction is no,but I agree its illogical.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: GUEST,GUEST, Gerard
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 05:50 PM

I've just stumbled across your site, read most of the thread, and still feel the need to add something... Sorry.

I believe the traditional ballad looks back in time at an certain event/events although its "message/moral" may very well be intended for the present; when that time-gap-feeling isn't there then it's just another narrative to me and lacks that something. This was just one parameter I used when I vainly tried comparing the European "oral tradition" (captured by Child, etc.) with the one in the part of Africa where I lived.
Another parameter I used is that it is definitely intended to be sung and through singing it, more easily remembered and better passed on to the next generation.
Interestingly enough, perhaps because a ballad is so crafted, it also often causes a reaction in the listener (the message?) resulting in it being liked or disliked, it is seldom treated indifferently. And perhaps that's why they are so hard to define while so easy to recognise ?
"So where does that leave 'Leader of the Pack'", he asks himself ? "At the starting block ?"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 03:31 AM

Ballads that survived down the centuries must have had something going for them to keep them alive - Lord Randall, Sheath and Knife - bloody wonderful!
This thread has been remarkably free (mostly) of personal taste and the short-attention-span syndrome; that's what has made it so enjoyable.
From the point of view of the singer, MacColl and Seeger's notes to Blood and Roses summed up the ballads for me.

Jim Carroll

WHEN IS A BALLAD NOT A BALLAD? WHEN IT HAS NO TUNE. It is with this conundrum and its answer that Professor Bronson opens his introduction to The Traditional Tunes of the Child Ballads. While agreeing with the spirit of the answer, we would go a little further and say that "a ballad is not a ballad until it is sung."

We have been singing ballads for quite a long time. Of the hundred-and-forty albums we have made, more than half have contained at least one or two ballads; and as far as live concerts and clubs are concerned, we both regard the ballads as a necessary part of any program. What is it about the ballads that we find so fascinating? Well, the stories themselves are first rate. They have certainly stood the test of time, and that isn't a bad recommendation. Then again - their poetry can be breathtaking. Most of the ballads that we sing contains some memorable lines: perhaps it is just a phrase, a line of incremental repetition, or it can be an entire stanza; but however brief the moment of pure poetry, it generally generates enough light and heat to radiate an entire ballad. Finally, there is the element of challenge. The mere length of most of the ballads is challenge enough. We sometimes regard them as actors regard the great classic roles of Hamlet, Lady Macbeth, Clytemnestra and King Lear.

On the face of it the challenge is a formidable one. You are faced with an audience made up of a number of separate individuals who may or may not share anything in common (other than the more or less sophisticated attitude to life and each other, which is the result of long exposure to TV and radio, with its instant news, instant politics, instant simulated passion yelled, sobbed and moaned by a never-ending succession of pop-singers). And the ballad singer, for the next eight or ten (or ten or twelve) minutes is going to sing a tale in the form of a long narrative poem organised into twenty or thirty (or more) quatrains, tied to a melody that will be repeated every four lines. Not much room for manoeuvre! Furthermore, the poetry is of a kind that few people in the audience have had the opportunity to become familiar with. It is full of odd usages, repetitions, strange combinations of romantic love and incredible violence. To complicate matters still further, some of the texts are in braid Scots. A challenge indeed...!

Occasionally the challenge has been taken up with results that have been less than encouraging. Experiments have adorned "Sir Patrick Spens" with spangles and a rock accompaniment; they have dragged "Barbara Allen", protesting, into the Middle Ages to the (albeit skilled) thrumming of shawms and crumhorns. But the ballads don't lend themselves to this kind of treatment They don't make good 'production numbers'. The poetry gets in the way: too much action, too many incidents, and the quality of the language leads to a kind of rock parody. The words of the ballads have something of the feeling of stones fashioned into a smooth perfection by endless tides. Attempts to create settings, arrangements for the poetry only succeed in making it seem overdressed - like putting a silk garter on the Venus de Milo. Also, in a curious way, a ballad appears to find difficulty breathing inside an arrangement for though the bond that fuses the ballad text and tune into a single whole is oddly flexible and appears to be constantly shifting its centre of gravity, it appears to be unable to function in the proximity of foreign musical influences.

Our own feelings for the ballads are something that we have nurtured throughout most of our joint working life as singers. Time and again we have returned to this or that ballad and discovered something new in it Occasionally we have been led to conduct major explorations into territory that we thought we already knew. The end result has been the complete reworking of a ballad... and a new search for the right degree of tension to match one's new understanding of the piece. Find the right amount of tension and sustaining it over thirty or forty stanzas: that's where the skill lies!

And what is tension? It is compounded of many elements. It is the right weight of vocal attack, the weight which best suits the theme and the nature of the ballad; it is the right tempo, the one in which the action of the story has time to untold without confusing the listener, it is the right pulse, that is the right combination of breathing, articulation, sense and shape of the tune; it is complete empathy with words and music; it is the right length of pause, of silence between the verses, during which both listener and singer make the jump in thinking to a new unit of the story; and finally, it is creative judgement the singer's knowledge of how far tune and text can be teased out and worked in each performance without destroying any part of the ballad's structure; it is the singer's ability to add colour to a word, to thicken or attenuate a line, to let a hint of harshness creep into the tone, to suggest that somewhere - not far off- there is a laugh lying in wait... and to be able to do all these things without upsetting the delicate balance of the ballad and, moreover, without the listener being aware that it is being done.

There comes a moment during the singing of a long ballad when everything is working. You have moved into the story crabwise, not giving too much of yourself at first Then, suddenly, for a moment you are conscious of the people listening, and they are all breathing in time with you! And all around you there is silence, except for the voice guiding you through the ineluctable dark landscape of the ballad.
Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger 1979


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 04:21 AM

I do not intend to be disrespectful,for the comments above contain much good sense,but only to add,that Ewan and Peggy,in 2008,might possibly have a slightly different take.
I wonder what their reaction would be to a ballad [eg lord Randall] done in rap style.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 04:57 AM

Could'nt tell you - can tell you what I think of it - how long have you got?
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 03:40 PM

Captain-
You could ask Peggy. I suspect that her views haven'y changed much.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 04:00 PM

Sorry to have to disagree with one of my gods, Bertrand Harris Bronson, but in the North East of Scotland many of the most prolific ballad performers could only recite their ballads. Unfortunately they were still ballads. I agree it is much preferable to hear them sung, but for some they were still entertaining as stories in rhyme and they still passed down the traditions that they bore.

The problem here, many times repeated on these threads, is that all of these words under discussion don't have hard and fast definitions or characteristics. As someone said it is their 'essence' that we are really searching for. Ballads have many characteristics, but not all ballads have all of them. If a few are missing they can still be ballads.

Jim, just for the record, Jimmy Miller is not one of my gods (excepting his work on travellers' songs)

Button, Graham and Thomas who? You knew more about English Lit than I did even when I was teaching you.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 04:08 PM

Captain-
You could ask Peggy. I suspect that her views haven'y changed much.
But isnt that the problem with getting older.
I think there is much to be said for ballads to be performed,without music,
eg spoken.Isnt rap spoken.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 05:57 PM

Cap'n,
I said I wasn't going to wander up any more blind alleys with your harebrained postings.
Thanks for confirming the wisdom of my decision
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Rowan
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 09:02 PM

in the North East of Scotland many of the most prolific ballad performers could only recite their ballads. Unfortunately they were still ballads. I agree it is much preferable to hear them sung, but for some they were still entertaining as stories in rhyme and they still passed down the traditions that they bore.

For an example of a similar ballad, but always recited and with no known tune (and all the better for that, IMO) try;

The Ballad of Idwal Slabs (As recited by self)
by Showell Styles

I'll tell you the tale of a climber, a drama of love on the crags;
a story to pluck at your heart strings, and tear your emotions to rags.
He was tall, he was fair, he was handsome; John Christopher Brown was his name.
The Very Severes merely him bored him to tears and he felt about girls much the same.

'Til one day, while climbing at Ogwen, he fell (just a figure of speech)
for the president's beautiful daughter, named Mary Jane Smith. What a peach!
Her waist was as slim as Napes Needle, her lips were as red as Red Wall;
a regular tiger, she'd been up the Eiger North Wall, with no pitons at all!

Now Mary had several suitors, but never a one would she take,
though it seemed that she favoured one fellow, a villain named Reginald Hake.
This Hake was a cad who used pitons and wore a long silken moustache,
which he used, so they say, as an extra belay - but perhaps we're being too harsh.

John took Mary climbing on Lliwedd, and proposed while on Mallory's Slab;
it took him three pitches to do it, for he hadn't much gift of the gab.
He said: "Just belay for a moment - there's a little spike close by your knee -
and tell me, fair maid, when you're properly belayed, would you care to hitch up with me?"

Said Mary, "It's only a toss-up between you and Reginald Hake,
and the man I am going to marry must perform some great deed for my sake.
I will marry whichever bold climber shall excel at the following feat;
climb headfirst down Hope, without rubbers or rope, at our very next climbing club meet!"

Now when Mary told the committee, she had little occasion to plead;
she was as fair to behold as a jug-handle hold at the top of a hundred foot lead.
The club ratified her proposal; the President had to agree.
He was fond of his daughter, but felt that she oughter get married, between you and me.

Quite a big crowd turned up for the contest, lined up at the foot of the slabs;
the mobs came from Bangor in buses, and the nobs came from Capel in cabs.
There were Fell and Rock climbers by dozens, the Rucksackand Pinnacle Club (in new hats)
And a sight to remember!... an Alpine Club member in very large crampons and spats.

The weather was fine for a wonder; the rocks were as dry as a bone.
Hake arrived with a crowd of his backers, while John Brown strode up quite alone.
A rousing cheer greeted the rivals; a coin was produced, and they tossed.
"Have I won?" cried John Brown as the penny came down. "No!" hissed his rival, "You've lost!"

So Hake had first go at the contest; he went up by the Ordinary Route
and only the closest observer would have noticed a bulge in each boot.
Head first he came down the top pitches, applying his moustache as a brake;
he didn't relax till he'd passed the twin cracks, and the crowd shouted "Attaboy Hake!"

At the foot of the Slabs Hake stood sneering, and draining a bottle of Scotch.
" Your time was ten seconds," the President said, consulting the Treasurer's watch.
Now Brown. if you'd win, you must beat that." Our hero's sang froid was sublime;
he took one look at Mary and, light as a fairy, ran up to the top of the climb.

Now though Hake had made such good going, John wasn't discouraged a bit;
that he was the speedier climber even Hake would have had to admit.
So, smiling as though for a snapshot, not a hair of his head out of place,
our hero John Brown started wriggling down. But Look! What a change on his face!

Prepare for a shock, gentle ladies; gentlemen, check the blasphemous word.
For the villainy I am to speak of is such as you never have heard!
Reg Hake had cut holes in the toes of his boots and filled up each boot with soft soap!
As he slid down the climb he had covered with slime every handhold and foothold on Hope!

Conceive (if you can) the tense horror that gripped the vast concourse below,
when they saw Mary's lover slip downwards, like an arrow that's shot from a bow!
"He's done for!" gasped twenty score voices. "Stand from under!" roared John from above.
As he shot down the slope, he was steering down Hope, still fighting for life and for love!

Like lightning he flew past the traverse... in a flash he had reached the Twin Cracks.
The friction was something terrific---there was smoke coming out of his Daks.
He bounced off the shelf at the top of pitch two, and bounded clean over its edge!
A shout of "He's gone!" came from all except one and that one of course, was our Reg.

But it's not the expected that happens, in this sort of story at least,
'cause just as John thought he was finished, he found that his motion had ceased!
His braces (pre war and elastic) had caught on a small rocky knob,
and so, safe and sound, he came gently to ground, 'mid the deafening cheers of the mob!

"Your time was five seconds!" the President cried. "She's yours, my boy; take her, you win!"
" My hero!" breathed Mary, and kissed him; while Hake gulped a bottle of gin.
He tugged at his moustache and he whispered, "Aha! My advances you spurn!
"Curse a chap who wins races by using his braces!" And slunk away ne'er to return.

They were wed at the Church of St. Gabbro, where the Vicar, quite carried away,
did a hand-traverse into the pulpit, and cried out "Let us belay!"
John put the ring on Mary's finger (a snap-link it was, made of steel)
and they marched to their taxis 'neath an arch of ice axes, while all the bells started to peal.

The morals we draw from this story, are several, I'm happy to say:
It's virtue that wins in the long run; long silken moustaches don't pay.
Keep your head uppermost when you're climbing (if you must slither, be on a rope)
And steer clear of the places that sell you cheap braces, and the fellow that uses soft soap!

This was learned from the oral tradition and the text seems to have undergone various minor polishings over the (admittedly, few, by comparison) years it's been in circulation.

I do hope nobody feels the tone has been lowered irretrievably.
Cheers, Rowan


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 11:01 PM

So what's the difference between a ballad and a narrative poem?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 12:12 AM

With the best will in the world, I'd describe that as a comic monologue, not a ballad.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Snuffy
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 04:06 AM

I have several times sung The Lion and Albert to the tune of My Bonnie Lies Over the Ocean, but for me that doesn't make it a ballad.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 04:32 AM

Malcolm Douglas,seven drunken nights is a comic song but is also a ballad[see Child].
Please what is your method of categorising 7 drunken nights,in one category,and idwal slabs in another? .


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Brian Peters
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 05:59 AM

F J Child never got round to providing a definition of what he considered to be a ballad, his promised Introduction to the ESPB being thwarted by his death. He did, however, say things like "a definition is easier to feel than to formulate", which means pretty much "I know one when I see one". To accept Child as canonical in terms of traditional Scots and English balladry is not to go along with all his choices. He often contradicted himself - pouring scorn on broadsides on the one hand, then incorporating them as his key texts on another. Or holding a belief that the ballads were "of the people" whilst regarding recently-collected examples from oral tradition as necessarily degenerate (to Child, 'authenticity' was defined largely by antiquity and correspondence with examples from European folklore). Also bear in mind that he died before the boom in song collecting during the early 20th century, and was thus to a great extent unaware of the continuing popularity of many of his titles. There are surprising omissions and inclusions: No "Long A-Growing" or "Polly Vaughan", but all kinds of stuff that, as Steve says, had only the flimsiest toehold - if any - in oral tradition. And how do we explain why "Marrowbones" is left out, but "Get Up and Bar the Door" and "The Friar in the Well" are in?

On the plus side, he was well aware of the kind of tinkering that the likes of Percy and Scott practised, and did at least dig beyond their published collections to find the original source material.

The defining features of the traditional ballad have been listed by many authors subsequent to Child (e.g. Robert Graves), and include many of the features mentioned by Uncle Dave and Jim Carroll (in his paste of Funk and Wagnall) at the top of the thread. However, it's not difficult to find examples that contradict F & W's No. 4) "A ballad focuses on a single incident" (expressed more colourfully by Graves as "the play begins in the fifth act"). We can all think of ballads in which more than one act of the play is presented, sometimes with years elapsing in between. A better description that I heard recently is that of "leaping and lingering": the ballad devotes several verses to a particular piece of action, then suddenly leaps ahead to linger on a consequent situation.

The repetitions that some of you seem to find redundant and irritating are also considered by many to be defining features of ballad style (although again they're not universal). More common than simple repetitions are the "incremental repetitions", in which a a standardized verse form is used to move along the action:

"They hadn't been a sailing, a mile, a mile
A mile but barely one...."

"They hadn't been a sailing a mile, a mile
A mile but barely two...."

To my mind these add greatly to the tension in the story, and to condense them for the sake of brevity would be to rob the ballad form of one of its most potent weapons. Would 'The Cruel Mother' have half the impact if the ghosts of the dead children did not repeat the early verses describing their murder? As for 'Lord Randall' - well, I sing it, so I'm not about to concede that it's a waste of space. It's true it has an unusually repetitive form, with five eighths of each verse being standardized, but for me it packs a big emotional clout. And where is the tension in announcing that the sweetheart is to be left "a rope for to hang her", without having first listed the bequests to the other family members (bear in mind too that inheritance was a big issue in the societies which nurtured these ballads)?

Interesting discussion, anyway.
Brian


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 07:41 AM

In Sir Patrick Spens I clean forgot
The forty-second verse
So I sang the twenty-seventh, twice as loud
and in reverse
and no-one noticed"


Fred Wedlock, The Folker.

On a more serious note can I ask where would Jaques Brel fit in? Some of his songs equal afore mentioned ballads in epic proportions and a lot do tell a story. Neither are they pop or any other apparent genre. What about some of Stan Rogers - Barrats Privateers to mention but one. Or Gordon Lightfoots "Edmund Fitzgerald" All ballads surely?

Only asking out of curiousity!

Cheers

Dave


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 07:52 AM

so nonone can define a ballad,some say they can feel it.
thankgod there is no 1954 definition of a ballad.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Brian Peters
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 08:21 AM

"so nonone can define a ballad"

I don't think that's the verdict of this thread, Dick. Any definition in this kind of area is going to be complicated and difficult to make stick but, as with the innumerable "What is folk?" threads on here, the point is that you have to have some idea of what a word means if you're going to have any meaningful discussion about it. "Ballad" obviously means different things in different contexts but that doesn't prove that it has no meaning at all. If I am booked to give a Ballad Workshop such as the one I'll be doing at the Lewes Arms next year (and, BTW, Marian Button is an excellent singer and her workshop there should be well worth attending as well) there will be no point in me turning up and saying, "Well, no-one can define what a ballad is, so anything goes."

For what it's worth, of all the examples of modern ballads suggested above, I'd go for Richard Thompson's 'Vincent Black Lightning'. It's not traditional and its verse structure isn't a nice neat four-line stanza, but the way it tells its story in a series of dialogue snippets certainly has something of the trad ballad about it. That one Hugh Lupton wrote and Chris Wood sings about the chip shop is pretty good, too.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 09:33 AM

I'll hold out for a ballad being a song with a narrative. IT can be traditional or not, good or not, authentic or not, popular or not, broadside or not, but it at least provides a useful grouping for a class of song. Obviously one can be more specific. simply by applying an adjective (modern ballad, traditional ballad, Child ballad etc.) but it's useful to have a generic word to distinguish narrative songs from , say, lyric songs or dance tunes or chanteys.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 10:14 AM

Brian,no one can give a logical explanation why seven drunken nights can be included in a ballad workshop,but Marrowbones should be excluded.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Brian Peters
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 10:39 AM

> Brian,no one can give a logical explanation why seven drunken nights can be included in a ballad workshop,but Marrowbones should be excluded. <

Child probably had his own reasons for selecting "Our Goodman" (= 7 drunken nights), possibly on grouds of antiquity or stanza form. But I'm not defending that selection. In my ballad workshops people are at liberty to bring along a song of their choice and justify its inclusion. So, at the last one, we had 'The Flying Cloud', which isn't in Child but certainly tells a story (albeit in more detail than an older ballad might have done). Somebody once brought along 'Pretty Boy Floyd' and I didn't exclude that, either. But I hope at least that people will bring narrative songs. 'The Seeds of Love', for instance, wouldn't qualify in my book - although if someone chose to sing it in a ballad workshop my reaction would be to ask them nicely why they'd chosen it, not to tell them they'd made a grievous gaffe.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 01:06 PM

a narrative song,seems like a sensible definition to me too .
but sorry, Lord Randall may be a ballad according to Child,but it has no more narrative than the Seeds of love,and in my opinion an inferior story and tune.
but each to their own.,I dont think of the Seeds of love as a ballad either.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 01:57 PM

I'm not going to disagree with anyone over whether 'Seeds of Love' is a ballad or not, but do compare it with Child 219, 'The Gardener'. They are very close. I would even go so far as to guess that SOL is a remake of 219. BTW don't bother with 219B; it's an absolute load of modern crap.

DickG, excellently put. I'm impressed.

DickM's original posting actually meant, what is a traditional ballad.

Perhaps what might be more useful therefore is listing and, dare I suggest, even prioritising the characteristics of this as Brian has already started doing.

I don't think Child ever intended his 305 to be the final word and be worshipped like some sort of bible as the academics have done for the last century. And yes, he was blissfully unaware of the many traditional ballads still being sung. He included several ballads of which the earliest version appeared on a broadside, but missed many that have since been researched by the likes of Bruce Olsen. Perhaps it is time for a remake of the English and Scottish Popular Ballads!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 03:02 PM

",but it has no more narrative than the Seeds of love"
I'm afraid the Cap'n is allowing his personal dislikes cloud his analysis of Lord Randal.
Of course it has a narrative - which is brilliantly teased out in question and answer form:
A young man comes home ill, is questioned by his mother and gradually reveals he has been poisoned. The final verses, again magnificently structured, eventually reveal his poisoner.
The Cap'n has made it clear he doesn't like the ballad; I can only say "I'm sorry for his loss".
I suggest he listens to Travelling woman Mary Delaney sing her version, 'Buried in Kilkenny' on Saturday afternoon on Lyric FM.
A number of the ballads use the question and answer form, quite often as a battle of wits (Captain Wedderburn's Courtship for example).
It is safe to assume that Child made the occasional mistake (and was inconsiderate enough to pop his clogs before he could explain his method of selection), but as far as I'm concerned he got enough right to add to my pleasure and knowledge for nearly half a century.
Here's to you Frank!!
Jim Carroll
PS For those who take some sort of pleasure in spotting the mistakes - you can add Bramble Briar (Bruton Town) to the ones he missed.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Brian Peters
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 03:16 PM

"I would even go so far as to guess that SOL is a remake of 219."

Yeah, interesting point, Steve.

"Perhaps it is time for a remake of the English and Scottish Popular Ballads!"

Volunteering, are you?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Brian Peters
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 03:21 PM

"Lord Randall may be a ballad according to Child,but it has no more narrative than the Seeds of love,and in my opinion an inferior story and tune."

Which version of Lord Randall are you referring to in claiming it has an inferior tune?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 04:10 PM

Brian.
all the ones I have heard so far.

Jim
I am afraid you are letting your personal likes cloud your analysis of Lord Randall.
In my opinion, it is a weak story.,and I have yet to hear it being sung well.
now can anyone give a logical reason why a peice of tedious drivel like Lord Randall,is called a ballad and yet an interesting story like Marrowbones or the Cunning Cobbler is not.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 04:39 PM

Dick,
Who said Marrowbones and Cunning Cobbler are not ballads?
Apart from Jim's perfectly good explanation Child included it because of its ancient pedigree, its relationship to other similar ballads and its foreign relations. Marrowbones and Cunning Cobbler are relatively recent broadside ballads and would have been outside of Child's remit and most likely his ken.

Had Child the knowledge of Bramble Briar we have today he might well have included it on the grounds, like Hind Horn, it is based on an ancient folk tale. However there are reasonable grounds to suggest that the Bocaccio Isabella story on which is undoubtedly based was put into verse by a broadside hack c1750. Unfortunately the original has not survived or has not yet surfaced. I put on Mustrad the details of what we currently know of this ballad.

Volunteering, are you?
Brian, funny you should ask that, but I'd rather do it as part of a team.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 04:56 PM

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: JHW - PM
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 07:17 PM
steve,an earlier post;
My introduction to ballads was Nic Jones singing Annan Water via a Dansette record player. But Annan Water as by Nic or as writ on the walls of the Blue Bell (or Ball?) in Annan both start in the 1st person as border and bothy ballads already mentioned yet must be ballads.
The parameter that the song should contain no comment I hadn't thought of but as I'd never thought of 'Eggs and Marrowbones' or 'The Molecatcher' as ballads perhaps I'd assimilated that feeling without identifying it. 'John Barleycorn' tells a story but because it is clearly a fictitious analogy it doesn't feel like a ballad any more than (for me) Marrowbones or Molecatcher. Perhaps the story has to feel as though it did once happen? But then there's my favourite Tamlane. Tricky. What about scale - fair enough the dread of 42 verses but can just 3 ever be a ballad?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 05:50 PM

Marrowbones is clearly not a Child ballad; but it just as clearly is a ballad. As are Bruton Town, The Frog's Courtship, Springfield Mountain and Kafoozelum, to mention a few. And Bonnie George Campbell , short as it is, is rightfully included in Child's canon.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Snuffy
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 07:25 PM

fair enough the dread of 42 verses but can just 3 ever be a ballad?

IMHO The Foggy Foggy Dew is a ballad (despite being a first-person narration), and tells more in its three verses than many ballads ten times its length. Sometimes less is more.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 09:19 PM

The omission of 'Bramble Briar' wasn't a 'mistake'; there's no reason to think that Child had ever heard of it (no broadside editions survive, and no example from oral tradition was published until after his death, unless you count a rather poor re-working in a Wehman songster of about 1890). He was aware of 'Polly Vaughan', but only via Jamieson and perhaps a few rather garbled late C19 broadsides. As things stood, it didn't fit his criteria, and its omission is not surprising. 'Long A-Growing' is one of the very few omissions that he might reasonably be taxed with.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 03:51 AM

"a peice of tedious drivel like Lord Randall"
As I said, the Cap'n is letting his "personal likes cloud his analysis".
Not an easy ballad to sing and make work, I'll grant you - obviously above his head. There are certainly some magnificent tunes for the ballad.
He'd be probably be well advised to stick to something as simple to follow as Marrowbones.
Malcolm:
"a rather poor re-working"
I hadn't realised that this was one of his criteria in assembling his collection. In my opinion he included pieces that were much poorer.
Whether Child saw 'The Bramble Briar' and rejected it is a much-debated point - we simply don't know.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: definition of a ballad
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 04:56 AM

that is a personal attack.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
Next Page

  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 24 April 3:29 AM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 2022 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.