BS: Palin VP McCain choice

Subject: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 10:45 AM

Karl ROve calls her a SOFT REPUBLICAN WOMAN.

how does he know, has he felt her?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 10:50 AM

I think the Republicans NEED to lose this election until the middle class heals enough to have some money to rip off again.

Until then its a Democratic Goverment.

PS Ted Stevens vouches for her.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 10:51 AM

Biggest surprise since David Bowie married Iman:)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: irishenglish
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 10:54 AM

I'm all for picking a dark horse, but from what I have seen, I don't think this would be a wise choice. Why do I have the feeling that if it is her, when it comes to the VP debate, that Biden would talk circles around her.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 10:56 AM

She is a pro lifing, oil drilling, Obama hating, ethics avoiding shill.
Since John McCain is so vital and in perfect health, at least she won't be President/ will she?

Ebbie might know something since Palin is from Alaska.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 10:57 AM

Maybe the Repubs will have her pose nude and sell the pics to raise money???

Awwww, jus' funnin'...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 10:58 AM

First term governor who hasn't been in office for 2 years yet? The think she'd be a good president if McCain can't do it?!

Stick a fork in the Republican campaign. (He would have done better with Paris Hilton, I think.)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 10:58 AM

Ignorance worked for W.
She could call Biden an elitist for knowing what he is talking about, and probably get a big cheer.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:00 AM

I wondered vainly whether it might be Michael Palin ...

... and now for something completely different ...

... with 10 years experience as minister for silly walks ...

"yes - we need to think for ourselves" - " I don't" ... etc ...

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:01 AM

This is a brillant move, politically, on McCains part. She is more of a centrist and has been known as a whistle blower.

This is changing the landscape of our country. Republicans are now having to deal with change in their own party. The traditions that the hardliners have clung to are now being tossed aside.

This is going to be a helluva race!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:03 AM

here she is

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: pdq
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:15 AM

Are fans of hers called Palin dromes?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:16 AM

She CAMPAIGNED FOR PAT BUCCHANNON

centirst?

Bucchannon is not a centrist my friend..

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:17 AM

Does she ever take her glasses off? At least it will get McCain the Hillary vote!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:18 AM

As for the prospect of her being vice president, Palin told Kudlow that she could not answer the question of whether she wanted the job "until somebody answers for me what is it exactly that the VP does every day. I'm used to being very productive and working real hard in an administration. We want to make sure that that VP slot would be a fruitful type of position, especially for Alaskans and for the things that we're trying to accomplish up here…."



HMMMM Does she know that she will be VP of the entire country if elected? Not especially of Alaskans?

Mother of five including a Down's Syndrome infant born in April. Pro-life. She will appeal to women and possibly to the women who felt cheated when Clinton lost the nomination. An interesting choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:20 AM

She was on the Oil and Gas Commission and
she blew the whistle on a sexual harrasment situation.
When nothing was done she quit.

She (wrote?) an AK ethics bill I know nothing about.

She is under investigation but as you know you could even indict a ham sandwich.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:22 AM

Her veto prevented the state of Alaska from blocking state benefits for same-sex couples; that is, it granted state benefits to same-sex couples working for the state.

This will not help McCain with the "Religious Right", though she is "strongly pro-life".

And her being "pro-life" will not help him peel off women who want to maintain Roe v Wade---though he probably assumes choosing a woman will help him with women. And obviously it won't help him with good ol' boys who just don't want to vote for a woman.

It will certainly be fascinating to see how this plays out--she has been very strongly against corruption, a weak point for Republicans for quite a while. And it appears the fight between her and her brother-in-law, a former Alaska State policeman did not in fact involve pressure by her to remove him--though that's still somewhat murky. I'm sure we'll hear more about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:24 AM

She will make a good attack dog that has little to lose...

Her favorite web site http://www.daily.pk/world/84-worldnews/6726-barack-obama-is-not-a-us-citizen.html

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:24 AM

DAYTON, Ohio — John McCain will introduce Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin to be his vice presidential running mate at an event here at noon Friday, senior campaign sources confirmed to FOX News.

Palin emerged earlier in the day as the hot name in the vice presidential sweepstakes after reports circulated that two short-listers — Mitt Romney and Tim Pawlenty — were out of the running.

Adding fuel to the Palin candidacy was a report that a charter aircraft from Anchorage owned by a McCain supporter had arrived at a small airport outside Dayton, Ohio, where McCain has scheduled a noon ET rally to announce his choice.

---

It has beens aid her views on global warming match John McCain's. She's sitting in the wet-spot of glacier melt, Alaska, and quibbling about the trends?

This will raise some interesting blather. Is America ready for a woman? Is she "ready to be" Vice President. I guiess if you can lob stupid rhetorical questions like that at Obama, turnabout becomes fair play.

But it was a canny move; she has youth, gender and looks to compensate for his age, gender, and ugliness.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:26 AM

"She CAMPAIGNED FOR PAT BUCCHANNON

centirst?

Bucchannon is not a centrist my friend.. "

Of course not, but not everything is black and white. She is a convservative, make no mistake about that, but she has supported some issues that Pat would not. She is not going to win over Hillary supporters with her stand on abortion rights, and I do not think that liberals are going to vote for her either, but she is challenging the hardcore Republican image and ideals.

I think this also put Obama in a better position. The experience issue is a wash now.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:26 AM

What an insult--does he think by putting a vagina in the race that women will automatically switch parties, switch from supporting Hillary just because they want a woman at the top? Hillary had it all--experience, brains, talent, and had been so thoroughly vetted that she was case hardened.

This bimbo may be from a large state territorially but they're small potatoes on the world scene and a very tiny population over-all. Can you see her stepping into the presidency if McCain kicks the bucket? I think the only thing I know about this woman is that she had a baby while in office (or was that Massachusetts? They did say her child has Down Syndrome and she knew ahead of time, so is taking moral high ground against abortion on this basis). Like no one else has ever had a baby and had to go back to work, right?

A caller on Diane Rehm pegged it this morning--they're being incredibly naive with this pick, but now they have to live with it. Let the Republican dog-and-pony-show begin.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:27 AM

She will also deflect the super wealthy elitist charges.
She has a frugal reputation.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:28 AM

"But it was a canny move; she has youth, gender and looks to compensate for his age, gender, and ugliness."


          Yeah, but he's going to look like Father Time when they appear on the stage together!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:28 AM

I do not think that she is any way a centrist.

It is a very very risky move on McCain's part. It puts all of McCain's attacks on Obama's experience in a very hypocritical light. In fact, every time a reporter asks the responsible question about her experience, McCain will HAVE TO either remove his best argument against Obama OR cut down his own VP Pick. Obama is less experienced than McCain, but she is further behind Obama.

This pick will get a lot of press. But, it will take ink away from the Republican convention, possibly a good idea considering how many Republican lawmakers won't be there and considering that Bush/Cheney will be there.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:30 AM

Well put Stilly. ;/}

After all McCain already has hefty breasts.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: pdq
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:32 AM

If Palin really becomes the VP candidate, it should put an end to all claims that McCain is conservative. He usually ate lunch with his fellow Irish liberals Ted Kennedy and Pat Lahey, and he coauthored legislation with Feingold, the most liberal Senator at that time. McCain is a hawk on foreign policy and that comes from his family background in the military.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:35 AM

One thing it did do, it stopped all discussion about Obamas speech from last night on all the major news outlets.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:35 AM

As a 2 year govenor, she has more executive experience than McCain

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: irishenglish
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:36 AM

Well, since it seems all but official now, I think Biden will be able to pick her apart quite effectively in a one on one. Though I wouldnt have put it the way SRS just did :.) it can be argued that Obama picked someone to shore up perceived foreign policy weaknessses and what have you, which will help him get votes, this is a move based purely on getting votes from where I stand, and not much else.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:37 AM

Rove has been quoted as saying that the 1.4 million volunteers who supported Bush in 2004 were what made the difference in that election. There are estimates that Obama can get up to 4 times that number. That's the crux of McCain's problem--and this pick has not solved it.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:37 AM

Yes she makes a good short term SMOKE screen.
She isn't bad in the MIRROR either.

Add some flag wrap and she's pipin hot ready to go.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:40 AM

The best attack against McCain is on his flipflopping.

He flip flopped on legislation he himself put up to the Senate. How can we believe a man who has voted against his own laws?


pdq
I'm curious as to what even total partisans like you think bout that. Which McCain do you think would govern if elected. The McCain of 25 years in Congress or the McCain of this campaign?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: irishenglish
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:42 AM

Jack makes a good point there. He can't criticize "experience" now, or if he does, he's going to have to be pretty damn crafty about how he does it.

Riginslinger, I think everyone knew last night that was going to happen anyway. IMO, it doesn't matter. If you watched Obama's speech last night, this announcement isn't going to make you forget it so quickly, whether you agreed with it or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:42 AM

BTW, Its been announced. She is the VP choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:45 AM

Here is a soundbite for you.

Are Hillary's feminist women really going to cross the aisle to vote for an anti abortion beauty queen.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: pdq
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:48 AM

"...total partisans like you..." ~ JtS

That obviates a reply, at least from me.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Dan
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:49 AM

I wouldn't dismiss her as a bimbo quite so quickly, for a couple of reasons. One is that that kind of attack is a fairly classically sexist way of dismissing women, and it's one that tends to backfire. The worst things the Democrats could do is ridicule or underestimate her - that would play into McCain's hands. Biden will have to be especially careful in the debate not to appear to talk down to her in any way. What I gather is that she's smart, well spoken, and apparently honest.

That said, I think it's a cynical choice - a bald-faced play to get the disaffected Hillary voters to vote against their own interests. Some probably will, but I doubt that many - especially when her record on choice is made clear. She is young enough to make McCain look very old by comparison, and as others have said, her resume makes Obama look like an elder statesman by comparison.

It will certainly keep things interesting.

Dan

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:50 AM

I think McCain would have gotten more mileage from Condi Rice than Palin.

But it's hard to find an experienced executive for President since
good canidates may not want to be saddled with a likely loss.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:51 AM

"I do not think that she is any way a centrist."

Jack, I think you are right. My earlier statement was based on what I've heard about her previously, but as the news is flashing and I'm reading more, I do not think she is a social conservative.

Before today, I read about her ethics reforms and the fact that while she does not support gay marriage, she did veto a bill that would have blocked state benefits for same-sex couples. She is also not a friend to oil corporations.

Yet, you are right. She embraces values that will not appeal to liberals or Hillary supporters.   I think this move will help Obama more than hurt him. At the same time, it is going to force the Republican part to re-examine their own values.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: irishenglish
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:53 AM

That too is a good point Dan. Biden will have to avoid sounding superior, while simultaneously hitting her on how she would govern if the unthinkable happened. I suspect Biden isn't too worried though.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: pdq
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:56 AM

Two years as a state governor is more executive experience than any of the other three candidates (Obama, Biden and McCain) has. Being a Navy pilot, by itself, is not an exective position.

Oddly, Hillary's seven years on the Board of Directors of Wal*Mart probably does qualify.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:58 AM

What is Rove up to by calling her a soft Republican woman??
Is he marketing warm and fuzzy over foriegn policy experience?
Maybe the numbers told him that a strong anti abortion running mate was required.

On the dark side, if an October Abortion smear is made against Michelle Obama, Palin would be the one to do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:01 PM

I am astounded. Palin is still fairly popular in Alaska but she made a lot of people unhappy when it came to her first budget. As they said, it was like she took a cleaver to each program without ever lookintg at what the program did. (psssst The word is that she is not too bright. But she is pretty.)

I can't imagine in what way she'll help McCain's election. However, if something happened to McCain and she became president, you suppose she'd be another surprise in the mold of Schwartzenegger? I dunno. Maybe the rrick is to have good support behind one; figureheads are pretty prevalent these days.

Strangely enough, and to add to the chaos, her lieutenant governor, Sean Parnell, is currently running against long time Congressman Don Young. What happens if Alaska loses its two top spots? lol

"We want to make sure that that VP slot would be a fruitful type of position, especially for Alaskans and for the things that we're trying to accomplish up here…." Governor Palin

Strikingly, this is just about the same thing she said when she became governor. She told the state that Wasilla and the 'valley' will always have her heart and will always look out for their best interests.

Her children still go to school there, she has her offices in Anchorage a few miles away from Wasilla and the family rarely is in residence at the governor's domicile in Juneau.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:07 PM

Some background from the web:

http://www.nationaljournal.com/almanac/2008/people/ak/akgv.php

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:08 PM

The democrats will use the clintons to bash her.

That is the only way they can be of use without appering hypocritical and it is the most effective way of bashing Palin without it being done by condescending men.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:12 PM

Well-said, SRS!

Thanks for your take, Ebbie. I look forward to hearing more from you.

The experience issue is a wash now. No kidding! Whoo-hoo!!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:16 PM

Many right wing talking heads are making a silly point that Palin lives right next to Russia and knows the stakes of the Russian oil monopoly game.

I measured on my globe and found that she lives exactly as far away from Moscow as I do in Maryland. And she has never met Putin just like me.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:19 PM

"The democrats will use the clintons to bash her."


                Well, they better not let her get too close to Bill!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: irishenglish
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:22 PM

pdq-ex-mayor and two year Governor of the largest state area wise, but one of the smallest population wise equals more governing ability than:

John McCain and Joe Biden, multi term US Senators, one from a state in the top 20 population wise, one from a small state geographically and population, but part of the big, big Northeast block?

Barack Obama, partial term US Senator, and ex State Senator of approx. 7 years from a state that is in the top 5 population wise?

Seriously, you're going to harp on that one because she has executive experience? At the same time you lamented the short straw the Dems gave Pelosi at the convention, this despite what you claim is her (now deleted) nefarious past?

Cmon man. You can do better.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: olddude
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:24 PM

Well come on people,
she does have a great body and being an avid hunter she can gut
a Moose should we ever need it

What more could you want?

(I am so going to hell for that one!)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:30 PM

Biden is to be the attack dog against McCain. He would be wise to debate her on McCain's record and not attack her.

No matter what he says, the Rovites on McCain's team will try to twist it as an attack on motherhood, or Hillary.

Lox makes a good point but I will try to refine it. Hillary Clinto should be the one to attack. Bill had better keep his mouth shut about her.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:32 PM

Here she comes she is   OMG Its... its.... Julia-Louis-Dreyfus from Sienfeld

not that there is anything wrong with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: pdq
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:32 PM

Somebody needs to look up the definition of "executive" rather than guess at its meaning. The president is chief "executive" not chief "legislator" or chief "justice".

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: irishenglish
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:40 PM

Oh I know the meaning pdq. I don't need you to tell me otherwise. I guess all those other guys who became President after being Senator, rather than Governors all pale in comparison to Sarah Palin and her awesome executive governance then.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:41 PM

olddude, she does appear to have a sense of humo(u)r: she calls her husband the "first dude". Someday, if he is lucky, he too will be an "old dude". :)

But you know, I'm willing to bet on what I think happened. I'll bet that it is the mark of a deparate man. I'll bet that until very recently, McCain had no intention of inviting Palin on board.

I'll bet that he is trying to gain momentum, that he is flailing about, trying to blunt the impact of the Democratic Convention. That whole event had to have been a serious blow to McCain's campaign:

* Everybody's talking about the marvelous speeches and the insights that the speakers brought forth.
* Everybody's* talking approvingly of what an Obama administration might bring to the country.
* Having those military men and women line up on stage supporting Obama and not McCain had to have a severe impact.

I do not think that McCain has a hope in the nethers of winning.

*OK, hyperbole. NOt everybody approves.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:44 PM

Good idea, pdq. LEt's start with W., as he seems to have confused the three rather badly.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:47 PM

She has a 5 inch jeweled FLAG PIN the biggest durn flag pin I have ever seen.   
She has a child going to serve in Iraq and she says the word nuclear, 'nuckular'.
Now that's a patriot! A solid pro life pro, lifetime member of the NRA, pro family, anti earmark and the brightest new star in the Republican Constellation.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:48 PM

Sarah Palin was Mayor of Wasilla, Alaska, before becoming Governor, and she was Miss Wasilla in 1984. Now, Wasilla is a town of some 8,500 people, and everybody knows everybody there. I have a friend, a liberal Democrat, who has lived in Wasilla all her life, and she's been quite impressed with Sarah Palin. Palin defied the Republican old-boys' network to become governor, and she is reputed to be a reformer who has not been tainted by the corruption of the Republican Party of Alaska.

I've respected John McCain as a Senator because he has been a maverick in the Republican Party. The Democrats say he has voted for Bush Administration proposals 95 percent of the time, but he still seemed to march to his own drummer. My impression of his has soured in the last few weeks because he has portrayed himself as such a staunch supporter of George W. His selection of another maverick Republican for Vice President, makes me feel a whole lot better about him.

I'm not all that impressed with Joe Biden, but I do think very highly of Obama and I'll be proudly voting Democratic this year. Still, a McCain-Palin ticket sounds pretty good to me. I want Obama to win, but I think I could respect McCain and Palin if they are elected. I certainly have never had any respect for George Bush.

-Joe-


Hey, what are you women doing, making all these sexist jabs like calling Palin a "bimbo"?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:49 PM

She has less than two years experience in a state with less than a million people which can't be much of a challenge to govern. It not only does not have income taxes but it rebates oil revenues to its residents every year.

Two years ago she was mayor of a very small city.

This makes her ready to be Commander in Chief?

She is also from one of the most corrupt states in the US and I am just seeing on MSNBC, under investigation in that state.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: pdq
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:50 PM

" I guess all those other guys who became President after being Senator, rather than Governors all pale in comparison to..."

Well (this just for fun, really) please show us how well-informed you are and name them all.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:54 PM

I get the Rove propoganda now, Hillary is a hard Democrat while Sarah is a 'soft' Republican.

correction: she does not oppose another oil company pipeline...

She supports a $40 billion pipleine

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:57 PM

She wants to exploit ANWR, she is to the right of McCain on this issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: irishenglish
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 01:05 PM

Just for fun pdq? Nope. Sounds like you are trying to show me up. Not playing. Thanks all the same. Off the top of my head, I can name the ones of the modern era. But baiting me looking to see how well informed I am when these days any answer is but a click away if I was so inclined is rather silly.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: maeve
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 01:06 PM

I am disappointed in the sexist comments made by males and females in this thread. I have a lot of respect for many of the speakers here. I can not respect the harsh comments.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 01:23 PM

Regarding McCain's VP choice, it looks to me like, in order to try to distract voters from the real issues and the real problems they face, he's decided to go with the "Oh, look! Something shiny!" approach.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: olddude
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 01:23 PM

Maeve
My comment was completely in Jest, my sense of humor is hard to take many times. But I can tell you from my heart, there is nothing sexiest about me just the opposite. I was a drop dead Hillary supporter and now the same with Obama. I have all daughters and my youngest is very active in politics and the other two are succesful in business. All three are drop dead beautiful and they had there share of sexist remarks from people. I taught them to just fire back or laugh when it is in jest. My apologies if my comment offended you. It was not meant to be anything but jest. Actually from what I read she is a good leader in Alaska. I still won't vote for McCain because I don't want another Bush but she is respected in her home state.

Dan

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 01:24 PM

Moose stew anyone?

http://alaskaoutdoorjournal.com/Departments/Recipes/Game/moosestew.html

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Cool Beans
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 01:33 PM

Bill Clinton offered us a Bridge to the 21st Century. McCain is offering us a Bridge to Nowhere. You can quote me.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: olddude
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 01:39 PM

and to qualify my point because it was true
Sarah Palin

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 01:50 PM

Of the 11 men who've served as US President since WWII, the breakdown regarding the highest level jobs they held prior to their elections is:

Army General: 1 (Eisenhower)
Senator: 1 (Kennedy)
Governor: 4 (Carter, Reagan, Clinton, Bush II)
Vice President: 5 (Truman, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Bush I)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Louie Roy
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 01:50 PM

I was born and raised a Democrat for 83 years but this November I will be voting for a different party and after reading all of the nasty remarks made about McCain and Palin it has made it easier for me to make this statement.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 01:53 PM

Hey, what are you women doing, making all these sexist jabs like calling Palin a "bimbo"?

Hey, Joe, do you think that just any woman will do, that this is what all of those people, the largest percentage of them middle-aged and older women, were working for? To have a woman in office at all costs?

Hell, NO!

People miss the point, that not only was Hillary a woman she was as-or-more-qualified than anyone out there in the Democratic field. Better than the Republican field as well. Would you say that about Palin? Can you honestly imagine that Palin could get through all of the events of the last 20 years that Hillary has faced without buckling? We don't know, she is younger and hasn't the background (and what is her education?) but I wouldn't put any money on her.

There is nothing wrong with a woman having good looks, and absolutely nothing wrong with a smart woman having good looks. But it does sound like Palin has been playing the looks card in the popularity component of the political contest in her state, doesn't it?

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 02:01 PM

And even though it appears that Palin was instrumental in the cancellation of the "Bridge to Nowhere" project, ill-informed pundits will still try to blame the bridge on her. See this article for more information.
Seems to me that Palin is a good choice, somebody who breaks the mold and who has been associated with the idea of reform in the Republican Party. If he wants to win, McCain is going to have to stay away from everyone closely associated with the Bush Administration. Choosing Palin certainly helps in that way. Comparing her to Cheney, you sure can't say she is "more of the same." If you're a Democrat, can you think of a Republican you'd rather see as Vice President? Karl Rove?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 02:09 PM

As much as I dislike Obummer, I am a realist. McCain is sunk. He does not have a snowball's chance in hell.

I can't see any woman, except maybe Xenia the Warrior Princess, holding up to Putin or Chavez or Achmadinijad or Kim Jong-il.

But I ain't going to worry over it either. Life is too short.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 02:22 PM

A thought experiment: If McCain keeled over from a heart attack three weeks before the November election, do you think the GOP would elevate Palin to their Presidential candidate?

If they would not, consider that if the same event happens a day AFTER the January swearing in ceremony, that is what they will have done.

Question: is this a wise course for the nation?



a

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 02:30 PM

As much as I dislike Obummer, I am a realist.

Much as this oxymoronic proposition amuses me, I appreciate your pragmatic concession, Sawz.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 02:43 PM

Still, she has a lot more executive experience than Oh Bummer.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 02:48 PM

It should make it hard to get too much mileage on the "Obama isn't experienced enough to be President" line. Any vice-president needs to be ready to step into the top job at a moment's notice. More especially when the president is McCain's age.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 02:53 PM

"Still, she has a lot more executive experience than Oh Bummer. "

You are dreaming. Even when you try to twist the word "executive", she still comes up on the shortside.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 03:06 PM

I heard someone point out the 20 itch/

Every 20 years the Republican party picks a well known VP to run and everytime they lose.

Everytime they select an unknon like Quayle, Agnew etc they win!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 03:10 PM

It did occur to me just now that her best match is probably Dan Quayle.

Makes me smile!

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: mg
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 03:13 PM

I think it is inappropriate, and it certainly has been done to Obama, to refer to the genitals of the candidates. Why is this being done?

I do not think she is playing the pretty card. She is an attractive woman to most people. She dressed this morning in what seems to me a way to play down her looks..a dowdy black suit, hair pinned up in a matronly bun, and geeky (no offense to geeks) eyeglasses. That is the same look I have adopted to play down my gorgeousness.

She does not seem qualified to be president, but nevertheless she strikes me as a very impressive woman and certainly one of the better role models for girls I have seen..quite an array of skills not commonly found. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 03:17 PM

I sense she is far more intelligent than Dan Quayle

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: kendall
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 03:43 PM

Louis, I can't imagine what any democrat could possibly say that would make me vote for a republican! Even a quick look at McCain's record would turn me off.
Read "The Nightingale's Song" if you want to know the real John McCain.He crashed 5 planes, was near the bottom of his class at Annapolis, a hot dogger, and screwup. He hit his wife with "I want a divorce" while she was recovering from an accident that left her disfigured. He has been in the Senate for 25 years, in other words, part of the problem we now have. He went half way around the world and bombed the piss out of a country that never did us any harm. His behavior as a prisoner was admirable but it does not qualify him to be president.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 03:44 PM

Of the 11 men who've served as US President since WWII, the breakdown regarding the highest level jobs they held prior to their elections is:

Army General: 1 (Eisenhower)
Senator: 1 (Kennedy)
Governor: 4 (Carter, Reagan, Clinton, Bush II)
Vice President: 5 (Truman, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Bush I)

Of those who were vice presidents, Truman, Johnson, and Nixon were senators before that, Ford & Bush I had been congressmen (tho Bush I had also been ambassador to the U.N. and head of the CIA in betweentimes).

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: pdq
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 03:44 PM

Thanks, B-dubs-El. The answere (just for fun) was Jack Kennedy. In the whole history of the US, just one person moved from the Senate to the Whtie House.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: irishenglish
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 03:47 PM

Sorry pdq. Incorrect. Warren G Harding did as well. Just for fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 03:48 PM

To refer to the genitals is to be perfectly blunt about McCain's very obvious move, Mary. In this campaign there is little new, it's two men running for the presidency. Women were enthusiastic because Hillary was a solidly good candidate for the top position, but now, the new VP running mate is nothing more than political arm candy. Many women will feel seriously diminished by this choice.

McCain put a woman on the ticket clearly hoping that Hillary's disappointed supporters are so shallow that they'll be like iron shavings to a magnet and vote for him simply because he has a woman on the ticket.

I know this will work against him. As a Hillary supporter, I sometimes wondered if I was so in favor of her because she is a woman, but when I see what the alternative is, it is repugnant. Palin's a big fish from a tiny Alaskan pond. Hillary asked on Tuesday night "Are you in this for me, or for these other people?" The answer for me was "both." With Hillary it was excellent that she was one of us.

Palin far is less solid than Geraldine Ferraro, who was a marginal choice at best, and I say this of my party. I think Quayle has met his match in the pretty partner fluffy VP candidate category.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 03:50 PM

FOX Palin a cure for all energy ills. Palin

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: mg
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 03:53 PM

Many women were not enthusiastic about Hillary. I was personally appalled at the prospect. I do not see her as more qualified than others like Sebelius, whom I did like quite a lot. I still would not refer to her private parts, as people did, or indicated she had some that women would not generally have..She should have at the very least shot them a withering glance and said that is not something we should be discussing on a nationally televised podium.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: irishenglish
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 03:54 PM

And to further (just for fun) if one considers that since it switched to VP's being chosen, two other men in this century might be considered as well technically. They are of course, Harry S Truman, and Lyndon Johnson, whose highest offices were Senator until called upon through death and assasination. Both of those gentlemen never served in an "executive" capacity pdq. Just for fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 04:09 PM

Carole C,
In addition to putting a good alternative perspective forward on issues, (with few words), I find your comments quite humourous.

What some call a "bold move" in putting Palin forward, it was expected by many punbdits (likely from trial baloons by McCain's folks) and quite reasoned.

It simply a counter move to ballance out the "minority group" card that the other guys have (While women are a majority of the population, they are a minority in the political feld).

What was a bold move, was her mentioning of Hillory Clinton in her speech. I suspect this could back-fire.

(BTW, is anyone so nieve to believe that these speeches are not written by professional speech writers, and studied to death by party handlers/stratigists, and presented to focus groups before being given?)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 04:10 PM

mg, obviously this is going to impact people who would have actually voted for Hillary. I'm speaking for women like myself who favored her. Your mileage may vary.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 04:15 PM

Incidentally, of those 11 presidents, Bush I was the only one to go directly from VP to President via election. (Nixon was elected eight years later, after having lost to Kennedy. The other three assumed the job upon the death or resignation of their bosses.)

To me, this points out what a non-issue the "experience" issue really is. What better way to gain the experience needed to serve as President than by serving as Vice President? But the American public has only thought highly enough of one of its VPs to kick him upstairs to the top job? (Twice if you count Gore's winning the popular vote.)

"Experience", or lack thereof, is nothing but a smokescreen. It counts for no more in politics than it does in business, and businesses routinely promote talented, highly motivated newcomers ahead of more "experienced" but less creative plodders.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 04:32 PM

From the NYTs's Timothy Egan

August 29, 2008, 2:36 pm
Ms. Alaska

She hunts! She fishes! She eats moose burgers! She can gut a salmon as well as dispatch an incumbent governor! She's a rural mother of five who clings to guns and religion -– exuberantly!

In choosing as his running mate Gov. Sarah Palin of Alaska, two years removed from her only other political job as a small-town mayor, John McCain has certainly offered up a giant-killer -– "Sarah Barracuda," as she's known in the Last Frontier State.

Palin, who has more than a passing resemblance to Tina Fey, took on the kleptocracy of Alaska's Republican politics and won.

First, she ousted hated incumbent Frank Murkowski in a primary two years ago, and then promptly cleaned up his mess in Juneau, even selling his private jet on e-bay. Second, she rejected the "bridge to nowhere," the famous earmark for a span from Ketchikan to an island of 50 people -– further angering the politicians-for-life who have run Alaska for half as long as it's been in the union.

But she has her own ethics concern, the subject of an investigation of whether the governor's office was involved in the firing a state trooper who was in the midst of a nasty divorce from Palin's sister — Troopergate with a bit of Alaska Gothic thrown in. And McCain's selection -– a woman who looks young enough to be his college-age daughter -– makes it hard for Republicans to criticize Barack Obama for his in inexperience. Palin is an inoculation for what may be the biggest rap against Obama. That's a huge risk.

Could Palin take on Putin?

Slaying Frank Murkowski and dueling with Don Young, the pork-loving congressman behind the bridge, is one thing. Both men are old-style hacks, to be kind. But Palin has zero experience on the world stage -– a crucial factor for McCain, who made the announcement on his 72nd birthday. And, just recently, she seemed to have no idea what the job of vice president entails.

"What is it exactly that the vice president does every day?" she asked in an interview on CNBC. A fair question, but one that also reinforces her inexperience.

Her bio is classic Alaska, a state where everyone has a past but it's so far, far away –- "Outside," as Alaskans call the mainland United States. If Cokie Roberts thinks Hawaii is "foreign and exotic," what will she and her other geographically challenged pundits think of Alaska, which has its own time zone?

Palin eloped with her husband, Todd, a commercial fisherman, who later won the 2,000-mile Iron Dog snow machine (as snowmobiles are called in Alaska) race. She gave each of her five children names that sound like her state -– Track, Bristol, Willow, Piper and Trig. She's a self-described "hockey mom," which means something in Minnesota and Colorado, two battleground states.

As a University of Idaho graduate, a television sports reporter, a beauty queen who was Miss Wasilla and competed for Miss Alaska, Palin brings a bit of the "Legally Blonde" aspect to the race -– you underestimate her at your peril, as opponents found in Alaska, and in the movie.

Militantly anti-choice and evangelical, the 44-year-old gave birth to her last child five months ago. (There were complications — the child has Down Syndrome — a point that she brings up in explaining her convictions.) Does she woo women, the disgruntled ex-Hillary supporters? That may be a tougher sell, given that she's bound to back the kind of Supreme Court justices who will remove abortion protections.

And on energy, she could have a debate with her ticket-mate, for Palin favors drilling for oil in the Alaska wildlife refuge, while McCain opposes it -– for now.

Oil has made her state rich, so much so that Palin has asked the legislature this year to give every Alaskan $1,200 as one-time energy relief. But it's also made it ripe for corruption.

Tough, independent, a feisty feminist — that's one image of the Republican pick. But there's also the echo of Dan Quayle.

In Alaska, big dreams come to life quickly. They just as swiftly crash.

Louie, I agree with Kendall. I cannot think of any reason why I would choose to vote GOP for the first time. I hope you will change your mind after learning more about all of the candidates.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 05:46 PM

I have found out exactly who owns her and how long she has been groomed for this job and why. There was no sudden surprise decision.

Her credo: Drill Drill Drill ANW(life)R must be drilled NOW.

Her owners: Big Oil

Her Groomer: Murcdoch and the Wall Street Journal

100 days ago she was contacted to do the Wall Street Journal TV special In Search of Black Gold. It will air September 24th

The anti abortion issue is a feather in McCain's hat. The myth that she is a crack shot hunter is laughable.

Now that you know, listen for her progressively strident position on drilling.



"Obama scares me" she says this a lot
"In a world of hurt!" her favorite phrase and repeated like McCain's says"my friends"

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Peace
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 06:24 PM

No offence: McCain won't be elected.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 06:27 PM

>>If you're a Democrat, can you think of a Republican you'd rather see as Vice President?

McCain is seventy two. I'd like someone with an inkling of an idea of what to do if he can't complete his term. Each person who ran against him in the primaries and Joe Lieberman would be better choices in my opinion.

Has this woman even thought about being President before a few days ago?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 06:31 PM

"I have found out exactly who owns her..." Donuel

NO, Donuel, you have NOT.

Posting that old magazine cover of Palin is counter-productive, to my mind. I think it's a STUPID look; she looks much better now.

The funny thing is that a month or two ago at music I said to the group, You know, I suspect that Governor Palin plans to become President one day.

One musician, in city government, nodded his head. Oh, yeah, he said.

Incidentally, Alaska's corruption has come to light in recent years but I wonder if it may be farther toward cleaning itself up than some other states? When the FBI made that raid on legislative offices and then it came down the pipe that several legislators were arrested and indicted I read a political column which claimed that "this is a sad day for Alaska".

I don't agree at all. Corruption coming to light is a GOOD thing; the sad part of it is that it was happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 06:34 PM

Choosing a woman...Smart! Choosing a woman with no national or foreign policy skills, some experience as a suburban mayor, and an anti-abortion pro-NRA stance as well? A very odd choice.
Her conservative stances may woo some right wingers in the Republican Party, but not like Romney would have. And trying to appeal to the sort of anti-sexist bra-burners on Hillary's left edge who would throw votes to McCain out of spite, with this conservative woman? Ann Coulter would have been just as good.

I am thankful for the choice. If you think McC will look like a bumbler in the debates with Obama, how is this woman going to deal with Biden?

This smells like a deal reached by McCain alone and based upon the quandary "how can I rein in the conservatives and retain the unhappy Hillary women? RIGHT! A conservative woman!"
But she's unqualified.
"So what? So is Obama!"
Right.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 06:37 PM

Abraham Lincoln of course had no "executuive experience" whatsoever. And he never even managed to get into the Senate. Totally unqualified to be commander-in-chief.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 06:39 PM

>>>What was a bold move, was her mentioning of Hillory Clinton in her speech. I suspect this could back-fire.

She didn't! Did she!!??

I can see the response.

Hillary Clinton: "I am Hillary Clinton! And you're no Hillary Clinton!"

LOLOLOLOL

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 06:49 PM

McGrath, I have seen Abraham Lincoln, and believe me sir, this lady is no Abraham Lincoln.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 06:50 PM

Damn, Jack. Stole my line!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 06:53 PM

You know, if you get the 'L' out of 'Palin', they rhyme: McCain/Pain.

I think maybe they don't have much money and they're trying to save on letters.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 06:54 PM

I would normally feel this is a wondrous and gloriously disastrous choice. Biden should cancel out the McCain experience on the one hand and age on the other. Palin and Obama have limited experience and look like all American family types.

What this should mean is that both parties would be stupid to attack the weakness of the other nor should either push too strongly on false strengths. In the end we could actually have two sets of candidtes focusing on the real issues and their solutions to them.

Sadly this is modern American politics and instead we'll hear nothing but sniping, accusations, more lies, and deep,deep, bullshit.

A good friend of mine and I were discussing how the company we sold for had failed to live up to our customer's expectations and what a helluva' mess that put us in. Trying to figure out what to do, he had the best line I ever heard and it makes total sense in describing the current campaiign methods in this country...........

Lie, Deny, and Make Counter Allegations

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 07:01 PM

From the Christian Science Monitor's Vote Blog (comments/columns welcome)in response to an op/ed by George Beach, Alaskan op/ed writer

: P Martin | 08.29.08

As another Alaskan, I have a different view:

McCain just picked a person who won the race for Governor on an anti-corruption message but then herself plays politics with state rules on personnel when she (and her husband and a bunch of her staff) tries to force the firing of her ex-brother-in-law.

McCain, on his 72nd birthday, picks someone who has NO national security knowledge or experience, no NATIONAL experience, and less than two years of state leadership experience. That sure makes me nervous!

Gov Palin is going to be blown out of the water by Senator Biden in terms of knowledge and expertise.

LeeJ, exactly!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: olddude
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 07:04 PM

Actually when all things are said and done, too much is made of experience. I once read experience is a hard teacher, first it gives you the tests, then it gives you the lessons.

I have worked with people who had 20 years of experience, what they actually had was 2 years of experience 10 times over. I have worked with people who had 2 years of experience and were more gifted than those with 20. It depends on the person. I don't like her for this reason:

Ultra conservative: what that means to me is George Bush. Funny how the term conservative really isn't conservative. Throwing out the bill of rights (privacy) starting wars, tax breaks to only the wealthy corporates. I care about her politics. The right wing is the wrong wing and it does not work for a country with so many different people all deserving of good health care and the right to have a decent life for their families. For that, I don't like her or McCain. I respect McCain, but he would never get my vote. A third term of George Bush would cripple this nation

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: kendall
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 07:07 PM

Good old John, he does like younger women. Can't fault him for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 07:07 PM

Anyone whose decision to not vote for Obama is in anyway shaped by unkind things said about Obama's opponents by his supporters really isn't in a position to vote for McCain, either. If that really is the reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Deckman
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 07:20 PM

She is up to her neck in an ethics scandal. When the full details come out, and most importantly the cover-up, I predict she'll have to resign from the race. I can't believe that the background review failed to make McCain realize just how vulnerable she is. This was a HUGE mistake for the republicans. I predict she'll have to resign from the campaign before it's over. Bob(deckman)Nelson

---

That last comment was from me, Bob Nelson. I wonder why I loose my cookie at the strangest times ... must be a republican trick! Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: bobad
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 08:17 PM

Interesting piece on NPR about someone, using her son's name as ID, spent last night cleaning up her Wikipedia entry.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 08:30 PM

I wonder if Michael Palin ever ran into this lady on his travels when he passed through Alaska on his Full Circle journey.

Here is a link to one day he spent in Alaska in his journal of the trip. And here's a taste from it: "On the way back, in a desolate landscape, broken by rickety cabins jacked up on oil-drums and discarded dredge buckets from previous gold mining activities, we stop for a beer at the Safety Bay Inn run by a lady with two-tone vanilla and chocolate-coloured hair. Dollar bills are stuck on the ceiling and the lavatories are marked 'Women' and 'Animals'.

Great journal - and a great documentary series.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: olddude
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 08:32 PM

I lose my cookies if I eat Jell-O

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 09:31 PM

So what do we know about the sister, Molly McCann?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 09:47 PM

Ebbie I have not posted ANY images of Palin.

The ones I have made I will not show here.

Palin used to be against drilling in Anwr
now she is for it.

She first opposed the oil pipeline
now she is for it.

Sometimes you don't have to pay a person money to corrupt them sometimes it is done with an offer of power.

She filmed a Murcdoch dicumentary called In Search of Black GOld last month and will air Sept 34th

In the coming days she will be all about drilling.
She will be all about abortions

Ebbie I am sure she is a fine woman and you would not not like to hear anything contrary.

President Palin can release nuclear missles in 15 minutes.
But she calls them nuckular.


THIS DESERVES CAPS

SENATOR MCCAIN MET WITH PALIN ONLY ONCE...AND THE MEETING LASTED 15 MINUTES.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 09:50 PM

I think she will lose McCain as many men as she will gain him women, especially in the rust belt and in the eastern mountains.

Mooseburgers, Hockey mom, Female basketball player. That's more exotic than Obama. Though she'd be really at home in Newfoundland.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 09:51 PM

24TH

Listen to her for the groomed comments she has been practicing recently.

Idealism is fine but you have to be realistic

Obama scares me

We are in a world of hurt if ...

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Louie Roy
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 09:59 PM

At the present time I'm just one against 117 in this thread but come November I will be one of many million who will be voting for a winner McCain and Palin Cheers

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 10:21 PM

Sorry to hear that, Louie. I hope you watch with an open mind and change it before election day.:-)

An interesting demonstration of the commonplace of the internet in the political life nowadays:

From the Washington Post

Just hours before McCain declared his veep choice of Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, her Wiki page saw a flurry of activity, with editors adding details about her approval rating and husband's employment. Perhaps more tellingly, some of the same users editing her page were almost simultaneously updating McCain's Wiki entry, adding information dealing with accuracy, sources and footnotes to each.

While Palin was among the least well-known of the potential GOP vice presidential picks - and therefore perhaps the candidate whose Wikipedia page was most in need of updating - her entry saw far more activity than that of Minn. Gov. Tim Pawlenty, probably the next most obscure potential choice.

On August 28, Palin's entry was updated at least 68 times, with at least an additional 54 changes made to her entry over the preceding five days. In contrast, Pawlenty's entry received 54 alterations on the 28th, and just 12 changes during the prior five days.

There appeared to be very little crossover between Wikipedia user accounts editing the Pawlenty and McCain entries, said Terry Gudaitis, director of cyber intelligence for Cyveillance, an Arlington, Va. based Internet monitoring company.

According to This Fellow there have been over 1200 edits to her Wiki page.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 10:23 PM

Yeah, it's my understanding that she's addicted to some ancient superstition or another, but I can't find it on Wikipedia. It must have been one of the things they deleted.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 10:28 PM

Donuel, you say a number of unsubstantiated things.

You say: "Palin used to be against drilling in Anwr
now she is for it."

I have never heard of a time that she was not FOR it.

You say: "She first opposed the oil pipeline now she is for it."

You've got it all wrong. The "oil pipeline"? She was not in politics yet at the time of the oil pipeline; she was in her teens at the time.

I expect you are thinking of the natural gas pipeline? And even then, you are wrong. She has not ever been against it, only against the terms that the previous governor had acceded to and with the projected route. It appears that it will take place in the direction and on the terms that she held out for, since she signed AGIA this week.

You say: "Sometimes you don't have to pay a person money to corrupt them sometimes it is done with an offer of power."

True. But first you have to make the case.

You say: "She filmed a Murcdoch dicumentary called In Search of Black GOld last month and will air Sept 34th"

I looked for this documentary and didn't find it. Is it perhaps because the date is wrong?

You say: "In the coming days she will be all about drilling. She will be all about abortions"

She has ALWAYS been about drilling. So far as I know, she has ALWAYS been abortions.

You say: "Ebbie I am sure she is a fine woman and you would not not like to hear anything contrary."

I don't know if she is a fine woman; my only concern is to avoid uninformed but adamant attacks.

You say: "President Palin can release nuclear missles in 15 minutes.
But she calls them nuckular."

Even Jimmy Carter said 'nukular'; it appears that we are not going to break people of the habit.

As for President Palin, I hope it never happens. A mutual friend tells me that Palin's mother is right wing and that Palin is much worse.

As for the "ethics scandal" that has been bruited about, the only potential scandal involving Palin that I know about is the possibility that she gave the OK to staff and/or friends regarding harrassing phone calls on behalf of her sister when her sister's soon to be ex was not fired from his job in a timely manner.

The jury, so to speak, is still out on that. It is being investigated. I have no idea of the facts of the matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 10:28 PM

She said she was against the "bridge to nowhere" and that if Alaska wanted a bridge they could build it themself, but as recently as two years ago, she said she was for it. She indicated that it would be good to push for it while it could be financed by the US taxpayers.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 10:34 PM

Then she's flip-flopping. All we have to do is to determine the floor of the church on which she rolled around to beg forgiveness, and we'll be well on our way to uncovering the true nature of Sarah Palin.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 10:38 PM

maybe it had something to do with her and her dad getting up at 3am to hunt moose when she was just a schoolgirl?

Seems she may have left a few messes in the town where she was mayor:

n January 1997, Palin fired the Wasilla police chief and library director. In response, a group of 60 residents calling themselves Concerned Citizens for Wasilla discussed attempting a recall campaign against Palin, but then decided against it.[9] The fired police chief eventually sued Palin on the grounds that he was fired because he supported the campaign of Palin's opponent, but his suit was eventually dismissed when the judge ruled that Palin had the right under state law to fire city employees, even for political reasons

At the end of her mayorship, Palin was behind the construction of the Wasilla Multi-Use Sports Complex, a $15 million multi-use indoor ice arena, as her legacy. However, developer Gary Lundgren acquired the land before Palin could. Without the deed, Palin decided to build the arena there anyway, and attempted to acquire the land through eminent domain, but a federal appeals court ruled in favor of Lundgren. The case is in the process of being resolved in the courts.[13] It will cost Wasilla at least an additional $1.67 million to acquire the land[14] and Wasilla is still attempting to cover the budget shortfall by cutting library services, postponing capital improvement projects, and raising fees.

AL Gore should field this one:

Palin has announced plans to create a new sub-cabinet group of advisors to address climate change and reduce greenhouse gas emissions within Alaska.[29] After she was announced as McCain's presumptive running mate, she stated that she does not believe that climate change is man-made.[30] Which is it, Sarah?

Let's kill all the wildlife and run up the litigation costs:

In 2007, Palin agreed with the Alaska Department of Fish and Game to allow Alaska state biologists to hunt wolves from helicopters as part of a "predator control" program, violating a 35-year federal ban.[41] The program was heavily criticized by Defenders of Wildlife and predator control opponents[41], and prompted California State Representative George Miller to introduce a federal bill making the practice illegal.[41]

Alaskan Republicans had mixed reactions to the news of Palin's selection. State Senate President Lyda Green, a Republican who has often feuded with Palin, remarked, "She's not prepared to be governor. How can she be prepared to be vice president or president?"

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 10:45 PM

LOL

Sounds like the Bush people. "It's easier to get forgiveness than permission."

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 10:51 PM

"At the present time I'm just one against 117 in this thread but come November I will be one of many million who will be voting for a winner McCain and Palin Cheers "

Of course you will.   Just remember that "many more million" will be voting for Obama and Biden. Cheers!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 10:55 PM

If I was starving, I'd get up at three-o'clock in the morning to shoot a moose. Otherwise, I think I'd just leave the moose alone to do whatever it is that meese do.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 10:55 PM

In 2006 while she was running for Governor, Palin was asked: Would you continue state funding for the proposed Knik Arm and Gravina Island bridges?

She said, Yes. I would like to see Alaska's infrastructure projects built sooner rather than later. The window is now--while our congressional delegation is in a strong position to assist.

This blogger says: So she was very much for the bridge and insisted that Alaska had to act quickly—the party of Ted Stevens and Don Young might soon lose its majority, after all.

The blogger explains: By that point, the project was endangered for reasons that had nothing to do with Palin—the bridge had become a national laughingstock, Congress had stripped away the offending earmark, shifting the money back to the state's general fund, and future federal support seemed unlikely.

The blogger continues: True, after Palin was sworn into office that fall, her first budget didn't allocate any money for the bridge. But when the Daily News asked on December 16, 2006, if she now opposed the project, Palin demurred and said she was just trying to figure out where the bridge fit on the state's list of transportation priorities, given the lack of support from Congress."

"Finally, (the blogger says), on September 19, 2007, she decided to redirect funds away from the project altogether with this sorry-sounding statement:

"Ketchikan desires a better way to reach the airport, but the $398 million bridge is not the answer," said Governor Palin. "Despite the work of our congressional delegation, we are about $329 million short of full funding for the bridge project, and it's clear that Congress has little interest in spending any more money on a bridge between Ketchikan and Gravina Island," Governor Palin added. "Much of the public's attitude toward Alaska bridges is based on inaccurate portrayals of the projects here. But we need to focus on what we can do, rather than fight over what has happened."

I can't believe that I'm here defending Governor Palin; I don't even like the woman. But I like even less piling on with little information; it seems to me that Palin's approach to the matter was sequential and logical in its progression.

Regarding the 'bridge to nowhere', I have previously said that it was an unfortunate misnomer, totally misunderstood by the press and therefore by the citizens.

Ketchikan, a town of about 13,000, is on the Alaskan mainland. Its airport was built on an island a couple of stone throws away. In addition to the airport about 50 families live on the island. (I say 50 families rather than "population" because when I worked at the Alaska Division of Elections I believe that Gravina Island had 67 voters).

To get back and forth from the airport one takes a ferry. The last I knew it wss $12.00 one way for a walk-on; $25.00 one way for a vehicle.

A good case could be made for a bridge. The problem was that the projected bridge would have had to be very tall to allow ships to pass beneath and would therefore have been very expensive.

Ketchikan itself voted against it. However, the governor at the time, Frank Murkowski, was pushing it; Murkowski hailed from there.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 10:59 PM

Well, we live in a neighborhood that has about 70 families, and we have only one way in and out of the neighborhood. And that one way crosses a railroad track. And trains carry hazardous materials on that track. So if there is ever a hazardous spill involving a train that's blocking our one entrance, we are dead. Maybe we should get the US taxpayers to pay for our second road.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:16 PM

Looks like Palin's people haven't had a chance to edit this Wikipedia page yet...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravina_Island_Bridge

"Governor Sarah Palin also supported the bridge, but canceled it when the Alaska delegation was unable to prevent Alaska from paying for some of the bridge's cost...

...The ferry, which costs US$5 per person and US$6 per vehicle (one way),[5] runs to the island every 30 minutes for most of the year. During the peak tourist season (May–September), a ferry runs every 15 minutes.

According to USA Today, the bridge was to have been nearly as long as the Golden Gate Bridge and taller than the Brooklyn Bridge.[6] The bridge would cross the Tongass Narrows, part of the Alaska's Inside Passage, so the bridge was designed to be tall enough to accommodate ship traffic, including the Alaska Marine Highway and the cruise ships which frequent Alaskan waters during the summer.

Statistics show that Ketchikan's airport is the second largest in Southeast Alaska after Juneau International Airport, accommodating over 200,000 passengers a year, while the ferry shuttles approximately a half million people in the same time period (as of December 2006).[7] The Golden Gate Bridge carried an average of 118,000 vehicles each day in 2006.[8]

In October 2005, Republican Senator Ted Stevens of Alaska became the object of strong media criticism when he opposed diverting the Gravina and Knik Arm Bridge funds to help aid recovery from Hurricane Katrina.[9] In his speech on the Senate floor, Stevens threatened to quit Congress if the funds were removed from his state.[10]

Congress dropped the specific allocation for the two bridges, but the amount of money appropriated to Alaska remained unchanged. In August 2007, Alaska's DOT stated that it was "leaning" toward alternative ferry options, citing bridge costs, despite having already received the funds from the federal government.[11] Although the project and its excessive spending was initially supported by Alaska governor & 2008 Republican Vice Presidential nominee Sarah Palin, she later reversed her position and canceled it on September 21, 2007.[2]

The project was canceled on September 21, 2007 by Alaska governor Sarah Palin because the federal government would not pay for all of it"

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:28 PM

Our bridge would cost about 4 million, 1 percent of the cost of the bridge to 67 people. It pays to live in Alaska, Our Senators and Governor have to represent 8 million people. The pork doesn't go so far. :-)

Ebbie, If what you just posted by that blogger is in any way true, Palin lied today to her first national audience, when she could just as easily have just left the reference to the "bridge to nowhere" out of the speech. That's not a great start. With here degree in journalism, one wonders why she did not know better. Did she think no one would look at her record?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:48 PM

I read that Obama supported the Bridge to Nowhere. Not true?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:48 PM

According to this article in the Christian Science Monitor...

"In the political parlaying, critics claim that Alaska - large in land, small in citizen numbers, and fifth in transportation dollars - wields disproportionate clout. This year, it could win twice as much highway money as New Jersey. Beyond transportation, Alaska receives seven federal dollars for each tax dollar sent to the US Treasury."


This is kind of interesting, too, from the same article...

"One impetus, rarely mentioned, is that the bridge would create an easy route for timber companies to log Pacific rain forest."


http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0615/p02s01-uspo.html


The stuff in the blog was copy pasted by the blogger from The New Republic


In this part...

"The window is now--while our congressional delegation is in a strong position to assist."

...what she is saying is that the Alaska congressional delegation can help Alaska get a lot of money from the US taxpayers, so the state of Alaska better do everything it can to help get the bridges built before the window of opportunity closes on the more than a billion (total costs) dollars that the congressional delegation was working hard to pry loose from the US taxpayers for the two bridges in question.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:52 PM

Palin's Sister. The Billy of the McCain Campaign?



A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:56 PM

The only references I have been able to find saying that Obama voted for the Gravina Island bridges is in posts to internet forms like this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 12:18 AM

Heric.

I am sure that the bridge was funded as an earmark. Its possible Obama voted for the bill it was attached to. Its very unlikely he actively supported it. Its possible that he did not know that the bridge was in the bill. That system is one of the things that he is saying he is trying to change. But I don't think that he ever intended to fight that battle bill by bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 12:39 AM

I read it in last week's Economist. (I caught that Carol.) JtS probably has it right. But then I also read he used them to great advantage, e.g. >250K to that white preacher who caused such a fuss at Wright's church with the Hilary slam.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 12:50 AM

For those that can watch MSNBC.com

David Schuster has a panel discussion about Wooten-Gate

Check out the Republican hack who is trying to defend McCain's pick and attack the Democrats.

Look how miserable she looks as Roy Seacoff summarizes Palin's difficulty at the end. It looks to me as if she wants to puke and drink a tall scotch at the same time.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 01:14 AM

What I said about the forums wasn't a barb, by the way. I did find two mentions about it in a couple of forums. Here's one of them...

http://vnboards.ign.com/outpost/b22180/108401618/p1/

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 01:37 AM

Louie, somehow I just don't see your kind, gentlemanly ways going along with things McCain has done/said, such as:

But despite his penchant for a little not-so-gentle ribbing, McCain doesn't cope very well on the receiving end. During his 1992 Senate campaign, a little inter-spousal teasing got out of control when, in front of aides and three reporters, his wife Cindy playfully twirled his hair and noted that he was thinning a little on top. His reply? "At least I don't plaster make-up on like a trollop, you c**t."

and

The Chelsea Clinton joke. At a Senate Republican fundraiser in 1998, when Chelsea was just 18, he took aim at both her appearance and that of the then attorney-general . "Why is Chelsea Clinton so ugly?" he asked guests. "Because her father is Janet Reno."

Is that really someone you want to support?

There's more where those came from and they are direct quotes.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 01:43 AM

"At least I don't plaster make-up on like a trollop, you c**t."

Heh. There's family values for you.


On the subject of Obama and the bridge, he's not campaigning on having opposed the bridge as Sarah Palin is. She is campaigning on opposing pork barrel spending and she is using the bridge as an example. That is what makes it noteworthy for the purpose of this discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 01:57 AM

Popular... Democratic Party views on Palin.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 02:07 AM

Pat Buchanan, a conservative who twice sought the Republican nomination in the 1990s, said: "This is the biggest political gamble I have ever seen. She is enormously exciting but if, God forbid, something happens, can she be president?"

from here

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article4636745.ece

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 02:09 AM

Good grief. We have met the enemy and s/he is us!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 02:21 AM

Apparently she is just a little more articulate than W.

Sarah Palin in her own words.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 02:26 AM

Palin's own words.

It was the wrong link previously.

This woman is going to make the Republicans hunt for Quayle.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 02:39 AM

Bill Krystol predicted this two months ago.

As he lied about energy.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 02:51 AM

Naughty Librarian

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 02:57 AM

Well, I'm still unconvinced about all the muck that has been dug up on Sarah Palin in the last 24 hours. I guess muckraking is the name of the game, but the only real question brought up is this very muddy thing about her brother-in-law. I'd like to wait for the truth, instead of trying to sort through a lot of speculative half-truths.

I know I'm going to hate myself for bringing this up, but the LAST Vice President we had who was young, pretty, and Republican was...Dan Quayle.

I think it's easy to see, though, that Sarah Palin will make a better Vice President than Dick Cheney, Dan Quayle, Spiro Agnew, or Dick Nixon.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Barry Finn
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 04:30 AM

The fact that she'd even consider the bridges at 400 mil which could blow up to 2 bil, is not the logic of a potential Prez.

I could drag Nantucket & Martha's Vinyard to the mainland with their airports in tow & still have a bil or so left over to spend on the New York Judies. What was she gonna do when the bridges were finnally finished? Fish for whales off them as part of the new catch & release program? Maybe she should consider a new airport closer to a larger population & closer to dry land.

Better yet, maybe Senator Kennedy can get on with a new Transport bill to overshadow the "Big Dig". We'll call it the "Big Swim". a bridge to both the afore mentioned islands in Nantucket Sound then another on to link the 2 islands together. It'll save us on ferry costs, course we might lose out with the high cost of auto fuel. Maybe that'll be covered by "Palin's Pipeline" after ANWR's pushed through & pumping in, say another 2 decades or so.

She doesn't sound all that bright.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: SharonA
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 04:45 AM

Palin's wide-eyed, vapid look reminds me, disturbingly, of Monica Lewinsky's. Conpare the female face in this infamous picture to the corresponding expression of the female in the pic leading this article.

...or compare this embrace to that one...

this happy couple to that one...

this black-and-white modeling photo to that one... they look like they could be sisters!

*shiver*

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Barry Finn
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 04:57 AM

Sharon, those comparisons were a bit cheap



but so's this




Does McCain smoke cigars?


Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 05:04 AM

Well, Barry, I took an Alaska Air flight into Ketchikan in a December blizzard. It doesn't look like the city has a whole lot of room for an airport. It's a small town of about 8,000 people, with scads of summer tourists. The only way to get there is by air or by boat. So, they built the airport on an island across from town, and get to the airport by boat. Not bad most of the year, but a killer during tourist season.
So, the bridge wasn't totally absurd. And what can you buy for $398 million nowadays, anyhow? A medium-sized shopping mall? Half a bomber?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: SharonA
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 06:14 AM

Barry, I didn't mean for the comparisons to be "cheap". I never saw a picture of Palin before last evening, and honestly, my very first impression of the very first pic of her with McCain was, "Gee, that looks a lot like that old picture of Monica looking at Clinton with doe eyes." The more pix of Palin I see, the more I see a similarity in the shape of the face, the bangs of the hair, the eyes, the nose and, yes, the mouth.

Oddly, there's also a similarity in the age difference: Lewinsky is 27 years younger than Clinton, and Palin is 27-and-a-half years younger than McCain.

I'm not saying that this means Palin is doing anything unseemly; it's just a coincidence. But I'm sure I'm not the only one who's noticed it, and I suspect that political cartoonists and YouTube animators are going to have a field day with it!

Another coincidence they'll not fail to notice is that Palin was a beauty queen in her youth, just as McCain's wife Cindy was. (McCain's first wife was a swimsuit model.) It ties in with McCain's reputation as a wolf with an eye for tall, slim, attractive and ever-younger women. As he spends time campaigning with Palin, rumors with fly that his marriage to Cindy is on the rocks and that she's jealous of his attentions toward Palin and that those attentions are unprofessional and that the only reason the inexperienced-in-national-and-world-affairs Palin was chosen was because McCain had another sort of affair in mind, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

McCain can't possibly win with Palin as his running mate. Even if she's not confirmed at the convention and it turns out that picking a woman was just an empty gesture, he's just proven that he can't pick a team wisely, and he's disproven his contention that his team has stronger leadership experience than Obama's. If it had to be a woman, there are several female Republicans with greater maturity and far more impressive resumes from whom he could have chosen. For instance, if he wanted to attract female voters, moderates, environmentalists and the Northeast Corridor vote, he could have asked former New Jersey governor Christine Todd Whitman, who is 8 years older than his wife. But noooooo. Right now, McCain really does look like a dirty old man.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 09:23 AM

I will leave the analysis of qualifications, and vaginas to others. But I want you to mark this one down, and remember I predicted it. By the end of the campaign, she will be seen as a liability due to her making comments that were not well thought out, or that were not approved by her boss. I predict major gaffes. She will surprise some folks with her skills, as one does not rise to her level of popularity amongst her constituents without considerable skills. But her complete lack of exposure/inexperience to/with the beltway media crowd, and their ability to search out inconsistencies and mine them for controversy, will cause her to lash out. Wait and see.

She will start out great guns, but will go down in flames, IMHO.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 09:26 AM

Ebbie, everything I said was true
but if I may add, you also followed the pack and repeated that Palin was against the bridge to the airport/nowhere, which Joe Offer eloquently made crystal clear was not entirely un needed, BUT
it turns out that Palin was for the bridge until political expediency changed her mind.

yes I corrected the date typo immediately but it went un noticed.

You know a young politician is seldom about unswerving loyalty to a position, it is about who wants what and how. The politician learns to compromise and change positions pretty darn fast and lie about it.

In Conclusion if you like strawberry ice cream I will not try to talk you our of it. But if you order Unranium ice cream I am going to say something.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 10:09 AM

The pictures being circulated with Sarah Palin holding and supposedly shooting an M16 rifle are real, but it is also the first time she ever held one in her life. It was being demonstrated to her for photo op purposes by some very wary Guard instructors.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 10:14 AM

The Sarah Palin TV special.

CNBC Sept 24 08 'In Search of Black Gold'
8 ET

A Wall Street Journal / Murcoch production

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 10:19 AM

I Youtubed her last night. Its my opinion that picking her was McCain's ultimate sellout to big oil. If she gets in the White House, we are going to Miss Bush Cheney.

Sorry to disagree Joe, But I think that she would be the worst VP choice ever. I pray she won't be elected because I do not want to find out.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 10:33 AM

But see, Donuel, you are skittering all over the pond.

What about the TV special, In Search of Black Gold? What about it? Will it show some nefarious scheme of Palin's? Everybody already knows that she is gungho for development.

(I thought that 'Murcoch' was a typo for Murdoch until you spelt it that way twice. >>><<<< I went back just now and see that perhaps you do mean Murdoch, as in Rupert, since you mentioned the Wall Street Journal and 'Murcdoch'.)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 10:58 AM

Pailin is a useful choice for McKain who is increasingly desperate to get some media attention, and the fact that this pick is a surprising one insures such attention. And credit to Obama and Biden for not rising to the bait and dishing her as soon as she was announced, unlike some of the rest of us.

That being said I find her references to Geraldine Ferrario and Hillary Clinton disingenuous, given her denial of any sexual barriers to her own rise to power; she says that she did it on her own and in the face of Republican leadership opposition. She is evidently a crusader and outsider, and that may play well to reinforce McKain's image as a political maverick. However, McKain has hardly been a political maverick in his Presidential Campaign, or in his 90% voting record in support of the failed Bush Administration.

Palin will also reinforce McKain's ties to fundamentalist Republicans and independents; she's a poster child for them! But I fail to see how she helps him reach out for the majority of votes he'll need to win the Presidential race.

Pailin doesn't do a thing to help address the economic crisis which is facing this nation, nor does she bring any experience whatsoever to address international issues. She has challenged the Big Oil lobby in Alaska, but only to bid for a bigger share of their profits. She has little environmental concern about accelerated development of oil drilling and new pipeline construction in this fragile environment.

But I still say it's a good pick for McKain in the short run for refocusing media attention away from a very successful Democratic Convention to the Republican Convention. Now if he will only invite GWB to do the keynote address, his victory would be cemented!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Stringsinger
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 11:35 AM

Ron, I humbly disagree with you. Palin is no centrist. She would abolish Roe v. Wade.
She embraces a fundamentalist Christianity and is in concert with McCain's corporate vision of America. You wouldn't call McCain a centrist would you? She has built an Alaskan bridge to nowhere with Stevens and now is flip-flopping on that issue.

Sorry Ron, I bet to differ.

She is also shriller than Shrillary.

It's unfortunate that she pretends to speak for women when she supports so many issues that are inimical to women's health and reproductive rights.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 11:50 AM

my disturbing cartoon

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: olddude
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 12:01 PM

Murdoch? Bruce did not buy those ad's I know he didn't he doesn't like Bush number III. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 12:04 PM

but he loves BIG OIL

Cash in with Palin
Big Oil all the way

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: olddude
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 12:09 PM

OMG
all this time Bruce, a closet Oil guzzler :-) who would have known

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: olddude
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 12:16 PM

When asked what are the duties of the VP her response
"I can't answer that question until someone answers for me what is it exactly that the Vice President does."

Now that sums it up ...

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 12:27 PM

That quote about plastering on the make-up is extraordinary - it really does, on its own, suggest more than just loose screw. Googling it is a bit strange. It arises from a book called The Real McCain by someone named Cliff Schecter. This book, and especially the comment, is almost non-existent in mainstream media book reviews or news, while being very widely quoted in left wing blogs. It's not on snopes.

The only mainstream review I found was in the Guardian, which says this:

"The list of worrying incidents is long. In 1995 he ended up almost physically scuffling with aged Senator Strom Thurmond on the Senate floor. And, according to some accounts, in 2006 he had a fight with Arizona congressman Rick Renzi, throwing blows in a scrap whose details have only recently been detailed in Schecter's book. Schecter unearthed another unpleasant incident from 1992 in which McCain, tired after a long day's campaign, reacted badly to his wife Cindy teasing him about his baldness. 'At least I don't plaster on the make-up like a trollop, you cunt,' McCain snapped in front of eyewitnesses. Schecter says he has three sources for the story. McCain's campaign have denied it."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/22/johnmccain.uselections2008

Not sure what to make of it.

(Not sure wht his punches would look like given that he can't raise his arms.)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 12:34 PM

way to go Heric, I was wondering about temper


COUNTRY FIRST
MIDDLE CLASS LAST

PRO LIFE
PRO WAR

CASH IN
WITH PALIN

DRIL DRILL DIRLL
ALL THE WAY
TO CAPITOL HILL

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: olddude
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 12:39 PM

It just goes to prove the age old saying

"beauty is only skin deep ... stupid goes right to the soul"

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 12:52 PM

If the posts about Palin being the champion of big oil are correct, and Hurrican Gustov raises the pric of oil, the American public will be out in droves to support her.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 01:10 PM

I shouldn't have but I did http://usera.imagecave.com/donuel/don1/legally.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 01:18 PM

I think the thing that surprises me most about McCain picking her is how much she looks like Keith Olbermann.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 01:58 PM

The Times Online isn't exactly a left-wing blog. Here's what it had about that "plastering on the make-up" bit, along with the rest of "John McCain's ten worst jokes".

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 02:13 PM

This McGrath?

In bad taste: John McCain's ten worst jokes

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 02:26 PM

Choosing Palin, IMHO, is a gimmick. And I think it will backfire on McCain, beginning with the claims of "inexperience" he has thrown at Obama. Already she has made major gaffes, as Mick predicted, in not being able to describe the duties of the VP.

Palin: "[A]s for that V.P. talk all the time, I'll tell you, I still can't answer that question until somebody answers for me what is it exactly that the V.P. does every day?"

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 02:26 PM

LOL

I just noticed that Gravina Island doesn't have any roads from the homes of the families who live there to the airport or anywhere else on the island. I guess that means people take their boats to get wherever they want to go. So if they built a bridge for the benefit of those families, the families would have to take their boat to get to the bridge. Then I guess they would have to walk over the bridge to get to the mainland.

Makes sense to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 02:33 PM

Bridge to nowhere, Bridge to an airport already well serviced by ferry. Same dif?

Toronto's down town airport is on an Island, only connected by ferry. I'll wager that Toronto Island airport is a lot busier than Gravina Island's airport. But they get by.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 02:39 PM

From MoveOn:

"Who is Sarah Palin? Here's some basic background:

She was elected Alaska's governor a little over a year and a half ago. Her previous office was mayor of Wasilla, a small town outside Anchorage. She has no foreign policy experience.1

Palin is strongly anti-choice, opposing abortion even in the case of rape or incest.2

She supported right-wing extremist Pat Buchanan for president in 2000. 3

Palin thinks creationism should be taught in public schools.4

She's doesn't think humans are the cause of climate change.5

She's solidly in line with John McCain's "Big Oil first" energy policy. She's pushed hard for more oil drilling and says renewables won't be ready for years. She also sued the Bush administration for listing polar bears as an endangered species—she was worried it would interfere with more oil drilling in Alaska.6
How closely did John McCain vet this choice? He met Sarah Palin once at a meeting. They spoke a second time, last Sunday, when he called her about being vice-president. Then he offered her the position.7


This is information the American people need to see. Please take a moment to forward this email to your friends and family.

We also asked Alaska MoveOn members what the rest of us should know about their governor. The response was striking. Here's a sample:

She is really just a mayor from a small town outside Anchorage who has been a governor for only 1.5 years, and has ZERO national and international experience. I shudder to think that she could be the person taking that 3AM call on the White House hotline, and the one who could potentially be charged with leading the US in the volatile international scene that exists today. —Rose M., Fairbanks, AK

She is VERY, VERY conservative, and far from perfect. She's a hunter and fisherwoman, but votes against the environment again and again. She ran on ethics reform, but is currently under investigation for several charges involving hiring and firing of state officials. She has NO experience beyond Alaska. —Christine B., Denali Park, AK

As an Alaskan and a feminist, I am beyond words at this announcement. Palin is not a feminist, and she is not the reformer she claims to be. —Karen L., Anchorage, AK

Alaskans, collectively, are just as stunned as the rest of the nation. She is doing well running our State, but is totally inexperienced on the national level, and very much unequipped to run the nation, if it came to that. She is as far right as one can get, which has already been communicated on the news. In our office of thirty employees (dems, republicans, and nonpartisans), not one person feels she is ready for the V.P. position.—Sherry C., Anchorage, AK

She's vehemently anti-choice and doesn't care about protecting our natural resources, even though she has worked as a fisherman. McCain chose her to pick up the Hillary voters, but Palin is no Hillary. —Marina L., Juneau, AK

I think she's far too inexperienced to be in this position. I'm all for a woman in the White House, but not one who hasn't done anything to deserve it. There are far many other women who have worked their way up and have much more experience that would have been better choices. This is a patronizing decision on John McCain's part- and insulting to females everywhere that he would assume he'll get our vote by putting "A Woman" in that position.—Jennifer M., Anchorage, AK

So Governor Palin is a staunch anti-choice religious conservative. She's a global warming denier who shares John McCain's commitment to Big Oil. And she's dramatically inexperienced.

In picking Sarah Palin, John McCain has made the religious right very happy. And he's made a very dangerous decision for our country.

In the next few days, many Americans will be wondering what McCain's vice-presidential choice means."

Sources:

1. "Sarah Palin," Wikipedia, Accessed August 29, 2008
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Palin

2. "McCain Selects Anti-Choice Sarah Palin as Running Mate," NARAL Pro-Choice America, August 29, 2008
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=17515&id=13660-137503-sUmWCCx&t=1

3. "Sarah Palin, Buchananite," The Nation, August 29, 2008
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=17736&id=13660-137503-sUmWCCx&t=2

4. "'Creation science' enters the race," Anchorage Daily News, October 27, 2006
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=17737&id=13660-137503-sUmWCCx&t=3

5. "Palin buys climate denial PR spin—ignores science," Huffington Post, August 29, 2008
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=17517&id=13660-137503-sUmWCCx&t=4

6. "McCain VP Pick Completes Shift to Bush Energy Policy," Sierra Club, August 29, 2008
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=17518&id=13660-137503-sUmWCCx&t=5

"Choice of Palin Promises Failed Energy Policies of the Past," League of Conservation Voters, August 29, 2008
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=17519&id=13660-137503-sUmWCCx&t=6

"Protecting polar bears gets in way of drilling for oil, says governor," The Times of London, May 23, 2008
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=17520&id=13660-137503-sUmWCCx&t=7

7 "McCain met Palin once before yesterday," MSNBC, August 29, 2008
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=21119&id=13660-137503-sUmWCCx&t=8

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: olddude
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 02:41 PM

I just talked to my republican neighbor. He brought the subject up not me. I said listen do you really think really think this person is qualified to have their finger on the nuke button that could end the entire world giving something happens and she takes charge. Honest to God this is the response I got and he was dead serious:

Obama has been in the senate 4 years and has been out campaigning most of that time, so why would you trust Obama for having a finger on the button?

She is a member of the NRA, so I would trust someone who has fired weapons before!

I am speechless, how do you argue that point. It is so amazing his brain can actually move his feet. Sorry but that is true .. Good Grief

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 02:41 PM

The Times said "in front of aides and three reporters." But Schecter is the only one to make the allegation (and he wasn't there.) McCain campaign says "never happened." Schecter claims to have three sources, apparently unidentified. So what about the three reporters, and most news organizations' refusal to acknowledge it?

Just a little bit not quite right. I'm not saying it didn't happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 02:49 PM

What does a Vice President do has been a question as long as I have been alive. I kind of like her candor on that point. Does seem a disastrous choice, though. The red county rednecks are going to keep the white house or not, without much help from sane people.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 02:56 PM

What would happen if McCain dropped dead between the end of the Republican Convention and the election? Would Sarah Palin automatically be the Republican Candidate?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 03:06 PM

The standard answer to that question usually is, tongue in cheek, "To inquire each day on the health of the president."
She could have used that old line. But, she continued to say, "We want to make sure that that V.P .slot would be a fruitful type of position, especially for Alaskans and for the things that we're trying to accomplish up here..."
That statement clearly shows her head is at the level of state of Alaska issues, not international and national issues. She is completely inappropriate for the position of vice president. I've been listening to the republican interviews about Palin today on CNN and MSNBC. It is clearly a stretch for them to be defending this choice. The last one I just heard was trying to defend the pick by saying she had been a mayor for a long time and had to handle Alaska's National Guard. PLEEEZE ... give us a break. This would be funny if it wasn't being taken seriously by the GOP.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: olddude
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 03:07 PM

I told my neighbor that I always thought hunting whitetail or Moose with a nuke was not very sporting. And the NRA course I took many years ago my instructor shamelessly left out the portion on Nuke safety

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 03:15 PM

Like a Hail Mary Pass, this v.p. pick was done in Desperation, article in Newsweek:
she's going to belly-flop at a time when McCain can least afford it.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 03:19 PM

There is no comparison.

Obama claims to have been doing public service for twenty five years. He has obviously been preparing for the presidency for much of that time.

She says that she prepared to be a sportscaster and fell into public service at the PTA. When she talks about the office she is pursuing she talks about what she can do for Alaska, which puts her on the same moral ground as Ted Stevens.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 03:27 PM

"Happy birthday, Johnny Mac! You're 72 now, a cancer survivor, and a presidential candidate who has said on many occasions that the most important criteria for picking a vice president is whether he or she could immediately step in if something happened to the president. Your campaign against Barack Obama is based on the simple idea that he is unready to be president. So you've picked a running mate who a year and a half ago was the mayor of Wasilla, Alaska, a town of 8,500 people. You've selected a potential leader of the free world who knows little or nothing about the major issues of the day beyond energy. Oh, and she's being probed in her state for lying and abuse of power."

(Alice's Newsweek link above)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 03:28 PM

We want to make sure that that V.P .slot would be a fruitful type of position, especially for Alaskans and for the things that we're trying to accomplish up here

Apparently McCain hasn't yet given her the memo about "Country First".

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 03:30 PM

" . . . backs the teaching of creationism in public schools [and is opposed] to abortion even in the case of rape and incest."

Good Sweet Jesus. . . . What a crazy-assed country. . . . Mayor of a town of 8,000? Howard Dean has more experience than her.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 03:37 PM

"As recently as last month, Ms. Palin appeared to dismiss the importance of the vice presidency in an interview with Larry Kudlow of CNBC, who asked her about her prospects for the job.

"I still can't answer that question until somebody answers for me, what is it exactly that the V.P. does every day?" Ms. Palin told Mr. Kudlow. "I'm used to being very productive and working real hard."" (NYT)

Did anyone ask her to name the present VP? Or to describe the machinations for which he has been responsible?


Jaysus Christ. Wodda maroon.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 03:37 PM

I disagree that she is knowledgeable about energy. She is an advocate for energy exploitation that puts money in the Alaska coffers, but her ideas about energy and climate change are anti-science.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 03:46 PM

McCain Gets $7 Million Bounce from Palin Pick

Sen. John McCain has taken in $7 million in contributions since announcing Gov. Sarah Palin as his running mate, a top campaign aide said today.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/08/30/mccain_gets_7_million_bounce_f.html


aaaarghhhhh. I'm falling to the floor. . . . . . Man down!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 03:55 PM

I wonder how much of that $7 Mil was from people who donated in desperation hoping to save the GOP in spite of this risky pick. The interview I just heard asking her if she was comfortable in being a heartbeat away from the presidency, she said "Yup, yup."

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 04:23 PM

JtS predicted last night that the oil companies (and their minions) will be throwing McCain's candidacy a lot more money now that Palin is his running mate.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 05:15 PM

RCP Average        08/18 - 08/29        --        47.7        43.8        Obama +3.9
Gallup Tracking        08/27 - 08/29        2709 RV        49        41        Obama +8
Rasmussen Tracking        08/27 - 08/29        3000 LV        49        45        Obama +4
CNN        08/23 - 08/24        909 RV        47        47        Tie
USA Today/Gallup        08/21 - 08/23        765 LV        48        45        Obama +3
Hotline/FD        08/18 - 08/24        1022 RV        44        40        Obama +4
ABC News/Wash Post        08/19 - 08/22        LV        49        45        Obama +4

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 05:17 PM

Newsweek agrees with Big Mick about her.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 05:18 PM

From that article, I see others have the same concern I do:

The balance between work and family, always a ticklish issue, will be brought into bold relief by the fact that the Palins' fifth child, Trig, was born with Down syndrome in April. Todd Palin, a commercial fisherman, may shoulder the bulk of the child-rearing duties in their family. But many voters will nonetheless wonder whether Palin should undertake the rigors of the vice presidency (and perhaps the presidency) while caring for a disabled infant. The subject will no doubt arise on "Oprah" and in other venues.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 05:31 PM

The sentence that jumped out for me was:

"The last governor chosen for vice president was Spiro Agnew in 1968."

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 05:40 PM

I already posted that Newsweek article link, Kat. I guess it jumped out at a lot of us. I was listening to the article's author on CNN when I searched and found the link.

Here is a comment I found on the NYT web site.

This should not go unreported:

"no one brought up the fact that she, in front of a worldwide audience, broke Operational Security the Military prides itself on. She announced the MOS of her son serving in the Army, and went on to say the exact date and the country her son's unit will deploy too. She has not only endangered the life of her son, but all the other soldiers in his unit. Senator John McCain never talked about his own son's service for that very reason. I think it shows the lack of Judgment on the part of McCain's Camp to not screen her speech and shows her own inexperience on the National Stage. For a candidate who prides himself on National Security his Vice Presidential choice just blew that argument out of the water. So why are we not talking about this issue?"

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 05:41 PM

Sorry, Alice, thanks and thanks for the MOS comment!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 06:01 PM

From an Alaskan blog discussing Palin, "to say something nice about Palin, I bet she is a better shot than Cheney".

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 06:08 PM

Here's a link to the Dan Quayle Center and Museum

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 06:18 PM

From the Fairbanks Daily News - Miner

Palin unqualified to serve as vice president

quote in part:

"Sarah Palin's chief qualification for being elected governor of Alaska was that she was not Frank Murkowski.

She did not win because of her conservative credentials, her grasp of policy details or because of her track record as the mayor of Wasilla, an office she won in 1996 by collecting 617 votes.

Perhaps the strangest claim repeated endlessly on the news channels is that she has proven she can cut taxes and reduce the size of government in Alaska. She may have cut taxes as mayor of Wasilla, but that's not the same as cutting taxes as governor of Alaska, where there is no state income tax or sales tax to cut."

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 06:35 PM

man still down

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Art Thieme
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 07:12 PM

WE THE PEOPLE will be left to deal with it, however it plays out.

That's the rub. Let us hope that it won't be a GRIND, instead, after all is said and done.

As one who is now elderly, disabled and unable to ply my trade, I do think about it, but not too often. The proverbial glass is more than half full----- possibly because I just threw up in it!

Onward and upward to all,

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 07:30 PM

Alice I hopw she is a better shot than Cheney too

see... http://usera.imagecave.com/donuel/don/palin_art2.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: pdq
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 07:40 PM

Geraldine Ferraro, calling Barack Obama "sexist," may not back him

Might fully one-third of the six surviving Democratic vice presidential nominees end up opposing their party's national ticket this November?

That possibility arose today based on comments Geraldine Ferraro, the 1984 Democratic veep candidate, made to The New York Times.

Sen. Joe Lieberman, who occupied the No. 2 slot for the Democrats in 2000, months ago declared for presumptive Republican White House nominee John McCain.

And Ferraro, a staunch Hillary Clinton supporter who sparked a brouhaha earlier this year over whether she made a racially dismissive remark about Barack Obama, apparently is no longer a reliable Democratic vote.

Ferraro, in the NYT story, terms Obama "terribly sexist." And, as a result, she says she may not be able to cast her ballot for him if, as anticipated, he gains the Democratic presidential nod.

On the positive side for Democrats, no signs of apostasy are emanating from the four other one-time party veep candidates still alive -- John Edwards (the '04 nominee who officially signed on with Obama last week), Al Gore (the nominee in 1992 and '96), Walter Mondale (the 1976 and 1980 nominee) and Sargent Shriver (George McGovern's running mate in 1972 -- they may have gotten trounced by the GOP's Richard Nixon/Spiro Agnew pairing, but their longevity is impressive).

-- Don Frederick

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 07:46 PM

I've found there are already a number of groups on Facebook against the Sarah Palin vp choice... like "Sarah Palin is NOT Hillary Clinton".

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 07:54 PM

"As mayor of Wasilia, Palin built - as her legacy - a $15 million multi-use indoor ice arena on land that did not belong to the city. It will cost Wasilla at least an additional $1.67 million to acquire the land which the town is attempting to pay for by cutting library services, postponing capital improvement projects, and raising fees."

click

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Maryrrf
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 10:10 PM

I'm still in shock about Sarah Palin being chosen as the vice-presidential candidate - but glad because I think this mistake will cost the republicans dearly. Tonight I went out to dinner with three people who had told me earlier they were planning to vote for McCain. They've changed their minds since he picked Sarah Palin as his running mate. I hope that's an indication of what's to come.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 10:31 PM

Now that I've read more about her and this choice of Palin has really sunk in, I am feeling insulted and angry that McCain would be so irresponsible as to place a person like this in a position of being second in line in this country if he wins.
Coincidentally while researching her background, I've been listening to an in-depth report by CNN of both McCain and Obama's background. They've finished McCain and are in the bio of Obama now. As someone who was nationally recognized while he was still in Harvard Law School, I'm looking at the thin resume of Palin in comparison to Obama, and I'm thinking... how the heck could McCain ever do this to the country?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 11:03 PM

"She supported right-wing extremist Pat Buchanan for president in 2000. 3"

      MoveOn.org has a very serious credibility problem, but if they're right about her support of Pat Buchanan, she's my kind of girl.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 11:10 PM

"'Sarah Palin's chief qualification for being elected governor of Alaska was that she was not Frank Murkowski.'"


                And her chief qualification for serving in the White House is, she's not Barack Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 11:39 PM

I pretty much spoke what I needed to say about this VP candidate yesterday, but I find the presence of a thread about her choices in having her last child and the quote from an article that Kat cut and pasted troubling:

The balance between work and family, always a ticklish issue, will be brought into bold relief by the fact that the Palins' fifth child, Trig, was born with Down syndrome in April. Todd Palin, a commercial fisherman, may shoulder the bulk of the child-rearing duties in their family. But many voters will nonetheless wonder whether Palin should undertake the rigors of the vice presidency (and perhaps the presidency) while caring for a disabled infant. The subject will no doubt arise on "Oprah" and in other venues.

This is where the line needs to be drawn. Speculation about who cares for her children, or if she should work outside the home when she has a child with Down Syndrome, those are questions it's illegal for an employer to ask an applicant. Even as a public figure, these are her private choices to make. I think she'd be a stinker of a VP, but I draw the line at this kind of speculation. It's totally out of line.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Barry Finn
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 01:21 AM

"She is one of the most popular public executives in the U.S"

I know of nobody who knew of her until now, course I'm in the Northeast.
But then as others have said she's no Hillary & in fact she's no Kerry or Kennedy either. "Popular" she was unknown except maybe in the local sports world but that goes for the local weatherman too, maybe he should give the job a go.


"worked as a sports reporter". She'll do just fine as an anchor, she'll drag McCain to the bottom.

Being a reporter, that's not a lot to go on, please, can we get serious here.

As to debating, destroying?
Do you think she'll hold her own debating Biden?


Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: mg
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 01:43 AM

I had heard of her for months. I can't believe these big wigs and senators etc. who ae saying they never heard of her. I don't think she is qualified for VP but as a person she is very impressive. Maybe we could invite her to Fisher Poets. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: mg
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 02:58 AM

About the baby..unless he has heart problems, which sometimes they (Down Syndrome and I think Down's Syndrome, which we have always said should be OK but I will go along with it..do we say Sjogren Syndrome. No we say Sjogren's syndrome. Lots of syndromes have apostrophes. Oh well.) Anyway, I don't know that he would require extra special care above and beyond what any infant would need. I am sure she will get any special enrichment activities he needs. I would prefer women and men with very small children not be vp or p but she probably won't win. Her little girl might be another story. I don't know. They do have a father who can take them on snowmobile rides. Or out on boat rides..mg

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: pdq
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 04:18 AM

Half the posts on this thread are from people who go to anti-Republican websites and get their daily dose of professionally produced hate. Most Republicans are good people and Sarah Palin is charismatic and charming. She may be a little bit short of George H. W. Bush on qualification for the VP slot, but so was Geraldine Ferraro in 1984. So was Dan Quayle. In fact, there were "better qualified" people than Calvin Coolege, Harry S. Truman, Walter Mondale, Spiro Agnew, and most VPs throughout US history. The fact that Ronald Reagan chose a "more qualified" man than himself showed his level of self-confidence. Same with George W. Bush's choice of Richard Cheney. Please start talking about issues and stop sliming people. Mudcat has already had most of its grownups leave and nasty attacks on Sarah Palin and her children, or on John McCain about plane crashes ain't helping fix the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 10:27 AM

If Reagan's choice of a "more qualified" vice president showed his self confidence, I expect that you will grant the same to Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: pdq
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 10:36 AM

Well, so granted. Isn't agreement more fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 10:46 AM

How Alaskans Feel about It :)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: SharonA
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 11:00 AM

pdq, it isn't just that Palin is less "qualified" for the office than many of us feel she should be. It's that John McCain's campaign theme has been that Obama is less "qualified" to lead than McCain thinks he should be, yet McCain has chosen someone who is supposed to be ready to step into that leadership role if need be but has less experience in national and international politics than Obama does. Our "hatred" is hatred of hypocrisy.

Our "hatred" is also hatred of McCain's painfully obvious pandering to special interests, and his obvious attempt to woo female voters to his side. The latter is already backfiring here in the swing state of Pennsylvania! I offer an excerpt from this CNN article about yesterday's rally:

WASHINGTON, PA -- "...In just her second appearance on the campaign trail with John McCain, newly-minted GOP running mate Sarah Palin was showered with boos on Saturday [August 30] for attempting to praise Clinton's trail-blazing bid to become the first female president.

"As she did at in her debut speech in Ohio yesterday, Palin appealed to the women in the crowd here in Pennsylvania with a political shout-out to Geraldine Ferraro, who preceded Palin as the first women to be tapped as a vice presidential candidate.

"But in contrast with the mild reception that greeted her comments at the Ohio event, when Palin praised Clinton here for showing 'determination and grace in her presidential campaign,' the Alaska governor was met with a noisy mix of boos, groans and grumbles around the minor league ballpark where the 'Road to the Convention' rally was held."

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 11:12 AM

This is how she looks to rational people

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 12:37 PM

to be fair of course she has some supporters

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Stringsinger
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 01:46 PM

PDQ writes

" Most Republicans are good people and Sarah Palin is charismatic and charming. She may be a little bit short of George H. W. Bush on qualification for the VP slot, but so was Geraldine Ferraro in 1984. So was Dan Quayle."

This is an appropriate assessment because what we see is Dan Quayle in a dress.
To say that this strident, anti-choice, fundamentalist, anti-science, anti-environment
loud woman is charming is to give the same equivalence to a porcupine after the spines have been hurled.

" In fact, there were "better qualified" people than Calvin Coolege, Harry S. Truman, Walter Mondale, Spiro Agnew, and most VPs throughout US history. The fact that Ronald Reagan chose a "more qualified" man than himself showed his level of self-confidence."

Ronald Reagan chose a more qualified man than himself to do what? His appointments have always been RNC hacks. Some were indicted criminals.

" Same with George W. Bush's choice of Richard Cheney. Please start talking about issues and stop sliming people.'

You can't always separate the people from their behavior. We don't know many of these people on a personal level but we can morally ask if their actions are helpful to our country.

" Mudcat has already had most of its grownups leave and nasty attacks on Sarah Palin and her children, or on John McCain about plane crashes ain't helping fix the problem."

What grownups?

As I see it, the problem is Republicanism. We've had eight long years of torturous
policies by this Administration (and I use torture metaphorically and literally). I see the selection of Palin as a continuation of these policies which have left our country bankrupt, jobs gone away, health care gutted, an occupation of a foreign country based on lies,
and to add insult to injury, her selection is so obviously motivated by political opportunism and not because of qualifications. I would imagine that Romney, Lieberman et. al are stewing over this misstep.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 02:17 PM

Yup. Yup. That last paragraph sums it up. For all of my hesitations about Obama being a super-politician (not as a compliment), there is just no choice left now. This opportunism feels as if they are shoving it in our (middle of the road) faces. Like that woman who spoke at the Dem convention "I just can't do it no more." Please make it stop!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Stringsinger
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 02:21 PM

"I think it's easy to see, though, that Sarah Palin will make a better Vice President than Dick Cheney, Dan Quayle, Spiro Agnew, or Dick Nixon."

Joe, you have got to be kidding. This strident lady is anti-choice, anti-science, pro fundamentalist Christian, in favor of drilling in ANWAR, maintaining that abstinence
makes the heart grow fonder, flip-flops on support for Steven's bridge to nowhere,
has not met with McCain enough to have his unqualified endorsement, and speciously
pretends to admire Hillary Clinton although all of her ideologies run counter to what Hillary has advocated. I would say that she might be more useless than Dan Quayle or perhaps more dangerous.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Peace
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 02:22 PM

Stringsinger, these folks influenced a generation of people.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Peace
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 02:24 PM

OK, maybe that's not so funny . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 02:26 PM

>>>Mudcat has already had most of its grownups leave and nasty attacks on Sarah Palin and her children, or on John McCain about plane crashes ain't helping fix the problem.

LOL surely you mean groan-ups LOL

Seriously pdq. She is without a doubt the least qualified person ever to run for one of the two national offices. Her challenge being to get up to speed and learn enough to take over for McCain while campaigning for VP and mothering young children one of whom has special needs. Frankly picking her as VP is a reckless as being responsible for the crashing of three multimillion dollar airplanes. Its worse. No daddy and grand daddy admirals can bail him out of this mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 02:27 PM

Reports on McCain's favored choice, Leiberman: the right wing of the party would not allow it. His choice of Palin, IMHO, shows his rash tendencies. To quote McCain's book of 2002, "Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint." Maybe he can live with the consequences, but as a president, the world has to live with his mistakes made in haste.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 02:38 PM

Republicans "have a tradition of nominating fun, bantamweight cheerleaders from the West, like the previous Miss Congeniality types Dan Quayle and W., and then letting them learn on the job. So they crash into the globe a few times while they're learning to drive, what's the big deal?"
from an op-ed piece by Maureen Dowd click here

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 02:40 PM

>>> For all of my hesitations about Obama being a super-politician (not as a compliment),

Its funny, that's why I support Obama. He is skilled enough to beat the Republicans and skilled enough to get things done if elected.

Carter, Gore and Kerry, while good men in their own way did not have the skills required to make a real difference.

Super-politicians Reagan and Clinton did. Though, I know consider Reagan's leadership to be something of a disaster, he was able to enact real change.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 02:56 PM

"The movie ends with the former beauty queen shaking out her pinned-up hair, taking off her glasses, slipping on ruby red peep-toe platform heels that reveal a pink French-style pedicure, and facing down Vladimir Putin on an island in the Bering Strait. Putting away her breast pump, she points her rifle and informs him frostily that she has some expertise in Russia because it's close to Alaska. 'Back off, Commie dude,' she says. 'I'm a much better shot than Cheney.'"

--------------------

I thught about that JtS and it's understandable, but there is a huge difference between Obama as against Clinton or Reagan. The latter spoke their minds. Clinton wouldn't shut up on intricate policy issues of any magnitude. Obama holds his tongue unless the subject is palatable to the masses.

His smashing of the Clinton machine was impressive, but on the other hand, he was placed together with David Axelrod, genius campaign organizer. He got along with a lot of people to get there. For all of his intellect and poise, leadership hasn't been on his list of strong points, yet. He could even end up a rubber stamp President to a Democratic Congress.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Peace
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 03:00 PM

That's an acute diagnosis, heric. Good one.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 03:16 PM

"He could even end up a rubber stamp President to a Democratic Congress."
And if this is all that happens, it would not be such a bad thing. The Repubs have blocked needed legislation on health care and more, and now maybe we can move forward with what needs to be completed.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 03:22 PM

agree

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: robomatic
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 04:16 PM

I for one feel quite blessed by the choice. Friday I had to go to the hospital for a procedure which called for general anesthetic, and going home with weird little pains in embarassing areas. But EVERYONE was talking about the Palin selection and this took away a good half of the discomfort and bother by pure diversion.

I'd sure like to know what the people around McCain saw when his head exploded.

Cute cartoon, Ebbie!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: pdq
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 06:16 PM

Sarah Palin was chosen because John McCain had a 10 point gender gap to close. She is not going to help in the northeast where McCain will not do well, but she will not hurt. I wanted to see Liddy Dole, a woman fully capable of being a great president. She is 61 but hubby is in his eighties. She did the right thing to stay home. I also like Colin Powell and Mitt Romney, but addressing the gender gap problem won out.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: bobad
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 06:35 PM

Well, I guess we'll have to wait 'till the elections to see if choosing on the basis of gender versus ability pays off.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 06:39 PM

At any rate, I'm sure most people will agree that she'd be much much better than Dubya, if McCain gets elected and gets promoted to glory soon after, and she has to take over

But then, who wouldn't?

A bit of a wild gamble though.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: pdq
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 06:41 PM

Ah, but the public will choose a president based on ability, not hype or sex or race. McCain: 53%, Obama: 42%, Barr 5%.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: pdq
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 07:06 PM

The two most important issues with the American people are immigration and foreign policy, where McCain is way ahead. Obama is considered better on domestic issues and environment, even though Obama can't tell jujifruit from goat shit about the environment.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 07:17 PM

I think determining what are "the most important issues with the American public", or with any voting public, would be a remarkably difficult thing to do. What people say in response to questions on such matters are no reliable guide.

If anyone asked me a question like that I'd have half a dozen different answers floating around, and it'd be pretty arbitrary which one got picked out as number one.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Peace
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 07:22 PM

"Ah, but the public will choose a president based on ability, not hype or sex or race. McCain: 53%, Obama: 42%, Barr 5%"

Well, hate to do this to you, pdq, but here it is: McCain, 45%; Barr, 3% and Obama, 50%.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: pdq
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 07:28 PM

Hmmm. Bet? CDs work for me. (thanks, BTW, if I forgot to say so already)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Peace
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 07:30 PM

YOU are on, buddy. LOL

I KNEW you'd say that. Hope you're keepin' well, and you are most welcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 07:37 PM

According to the Harris polls, the US voters consistently rank the economy and energy policy as their top issues.
http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=942

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 07:47 PM

Specifically, that August Harris poll I linked to shows the number one issue as
The Economy (non specific) 43%
Gas & Oil Prices 15% and Energy 15%
The War 22%
Healthcare 15%

Immigration is down at 6%
and National Security 2%

There is a long list of concerns. It's interesting to see the breakdown.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 08:20 PM

Posted Sunday, August 31 2008 at 19:23
"Barack Obama jumped to his biggest lead since late July in public opinion polls, after his speech to more than 75,000 people in a Denver football stadium when he accepted the Democratic Party's presidential nomination.


Obama the man to fulfil Luther King Jr's dream

Republican John McCain showed off his vice presidential running mate, Alaska Governor Sarah Palin in this city, yesterday as Mr Obama's campaign aired a new TV ad urging voters not be distracted by McCain putting a woman on the GOP ticket.

At the same time, their campaign unveiled a 30-second national TV ad that says Mr McCain's selection of Ms Palin should not obscure the fact that Mr McCain candidacy represents a continuation of President Bush 's policies.

"So, while this may be his running mate," an announcer says with a photo of Palin on the screen, "America knows this is McCain's agenda." The visual then switches to a shot of McCain and Bush. "We can't afford four more years of the same."

Mr Obama himself offered a non-committal assessment of Palin during a television interview.

Speaking during a taping of CBS' "60 Minutes," Mr Obama said Ms Palin "Obviously, she's a fine mother and an up and coming public servant" but added "It's too early for me to gauge what kind of running mate she'll be. My sense is that she subscribes to John McCain's agenda."

Meanwhile, how long Mr Obama holds the lead in polls is open to question, as voters react to Mr McCain's surprise selection of Mr Palin for his running mate and Republicans begin their nominating convention tomorrow in St Paul, Minnesota.

Mr Obama leads McCain 49-41 per cent in the most recent Gallup Poll daily tracking survey, which measured voter sentiment during a three-day period ending on August 28."

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Barry Finn
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 09:05 PM

"The two most important issues with the American people are immigration and foreign policy"

pdq, is that your opinion?

Cause I'd say that the economy is #1 & McCash hasn't got a clue what to do about that except to offer the rich more tax breaks & that's been oh, so sucessful as we've recently seen. Thanks Bush for the F#&king 600 bucks, it didn't even put a dent in my rising heating bills from the winter!
On the other hand Obama has got a real good grasp with tax breaks to those that work for it & actually taxing the top 5% who've never paid their fair share in their lives & keeping those same folks the from getting the tax breaks to out source our jobs & again he's up to growing green industries as a new job & revenue source. Let the republicans sit & think about this for a few yrs while it passes US by.

As for immigration, IMHO that's a republican smokescreen, why start now, when they've benifited from immigrants for so long & so much in the past, & reaped handsomely too I might add.

Foreign policy! You've got to be kidding. The present & past policy & it's one McSpends endorses, is War & at the cost of, is it a billion a month it's been a twofold disaster, that's killing the economy & killing ours & their kids. Great job, well done so far. We now borrow from China to pay for a was in the Mid East, that's taking the food off our tables at home, raising the price of everything we ship, truck, train, transport or touch or eat. Meanwhile, the Oil industry is breaking all records in the profit sector, the drug companies are making killer profits that's gonna be the death of US all, education is off the price charts & the health care system is asking US all to bend over so than can do a rectal exam to see what's wrong with our minds for letting the republicans do what they've been doing to US for so long. Forget about SS, you won't be able to retire at this rate, you'll work for your medical conditions & drugs & even if you're as healthy as a hose by whatever the retirement age is by then you'll not be able to survive on your SS check so you'll probably be working till you drop dead & if it happens on the job hopefully OSHA is still in effect & your workers comp is up to date so your kids don't get buried paying the cost to give you closure & hope that you die before an Old Age retirement settlement selltes out of court & lands up with owning your kid's home too as well as their 1st borns.

Immigration and foreign policy! That's not even the tip of the ice berg never mind the top of it! We're so fucked on so many fronts that it's mind boggling to even think of the repair work & the associated costs that's gonna be given to the next suceeding generations. Here comes My children & grandchildren are screwed becasue of the present & recent past republican administrations unless Obama gets in & works some magic, casue it sure ain't gonna happen with more from the same party of assholes.

Here comes the "New Deal" again, the WPA for the 21st century.

Now here we all get in line,
And it's Buddy, can you share a dime
We've had our coffee here before
But the lunch pail's pale this time

No more New Deals for me
Just a job & a future please
Health & Welfare & a sick day
And a bit of coverage for the family

In the 90's I worked overtime
Personnal days plenty vaction time
A living wage & yearly increase
Oh those times they were so sweet

Today's not worth the living
When my back gave all it's giving
And the drugs I need won't feed me
I'd be better off in prison

But I'll pack my pail once more
And I'll head out of the door
And I'll sweat my days away
On this goddam killing floor

And when I'm at my end days
My kids will proudly say
That he tried to feed & cloth' us
But he only worked his life away


Remember the "lunch pail"? It was a symbol of those times.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 09:35 PM

Yeah, like they say, people vote their pocketbooks and this election will be no different... Once Obama beats back McCain's BIG LIE about Obama raising "your taxes" the rest will work iotself out fairly nicely...

Problem is that right now, McCain's camp has injected several BIG LIEs into the campaign that the Obama team will ahve to dispell before the polls will move...

But I do like the comment that Obama made about McCain not having the "temperment" to be president and I hope that his people will come out with a few ads showing McHothead to be just that and that oughtta buy Obama some time to beat back some of the BIG LIES while McCain scurries to come up with a number of ads where people give testimonials about just what a nice guy McNice really is...

Kinda a chess game right now...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 09:48 PM

I heard on NPR that McCain had named a female to run--I caught just the tail end of it and didn't know who so called home in a panic to ask my husband if he had heard and if he thought it would get McCain elected. He had heard and said -- not that woman!!! As someone (pdq, I think) said earlier McCain could have picked Liddy Dole -- God, he could have picked Olympia Snowe from Maine and we might all be shaking in our shoes but this woman - a person who boasts of being a hockey mum? Please - it's insulting to the majority of women, I hope it will be the deathknell of the McCain campaign......

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: mg
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 10:07 PM

Olympia Snowe would seem to be an excellent choice. I have had some professional contact with her years ago and she was quite impressive. She is Greek-American I believe...well so was Spiro T. but would add some ethnic variety as well. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: pdq
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 10:07 PM

What I said was: Liddy Dole is a very able person and quite capable of being president. I also said Colin Powell and Mitt Romney would have been good choices. I did not say McCain could have chosen Liddy Dole since her loyalty to Bob Dole ruled her out as a candidate. I respect her decision.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 10:12 PM

Silly people are taking their ball and going home since some people say mean things about their candidate. These grown ups need a fresh perspective.

Like one of my cartoons about people who protest protest;



To question is to ridicule senslessly

To ridicule is to attack

To attack is childish

To be childish is to question

Don Hakman

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 10:14 PM

My point was that if McCain wanted a woman on the ticket he had many other much stronger choices than Ms. Palin. But of course, those other women were not strong enough on pro life and creationism.......!

Pdq - didn't mean to misquote you......

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 10:18 PM

I would say that the top three issues are the economy. Followed by getting out of Iraq, then banning abortion. Though for many of McCain's supporters abortion is first.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 10:22 PM

"Seriously pdq. She [Sarah Palin] is without a doubt the least qualified person ever to run for one of the two national offices."


               Except for Barack Obama. She's more qualified than he is.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 10:24 PM

The economy -- it has to be the economy....what else is there. We are spending $15K to change our house to a gas heating system because of the price of oil -- we are spending $4K to put in a pellet stove......we are among the lucky few because we actually HAVE the $19K this is going to cost to have done............; ; what do those poor souls living from pay check to pay check do??? Where is the end to it?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 10:25 PM

Jack, look at the Harris poll results for this month that I linked to. Abortion issue is WAY down the list of concerns of voters right now. Perception is not the same as reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 10:37 PM

Sarah Palin, whose education was in a small Idaho college, majoring in journalism and won her governor's race as a fluke because Murkowski became unpopular - TOTALLY NOT QUALIFIED for any federal level office!

from wiki:
"In 1996, she challenged and defeated incumbent mayor John Stein, criticizing wasteful spending and high taxes. In January 1997, Palin fired the Wasilla police chief, citing a failure to support her administration. In response, a group of 60 residents calling themselves Concerned Citizens for Wasilla discussed attempting a recall campaign against Palin, but decided against it. The fired police chief later sued Palin on the grounds that he was fired because he supported the campaign of Palin's opponent, but his suit was dismissed when the judge ruled that Palin had the right under state law to fire city employees, even for political reasons."

She criticized wasteful spending, then went ahead with building a big ice rink that has caused the city to cut back on funding for such things as the library. Well, she is anti-science, too, so I guess the library is not as important to her as having a hockey rink built in her name.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 10:37 PM

Alice, don't let the polls fool you. A lot of people won't say abortion is an issue because for them it is a given. But its a biggie. In the last few days I found that for a number of people I know. It is paramount. If there is no way they will vote for a pro life candidate. If they call him a baby killers, then other issues have no relevance.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: SharonA
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 10:57 PM

Apparently, Palin has some party-loyalty problems at home. According to this ABC News article, Alaska's Republican senior Senator Ted Stevens is up for re-election in a tight race with Anchorage's mayor. Stevens had endorsed Palin when she ran for governor in '06 (not during her primary, but 3 weeks before the general election) and she publicly and enthusiastically accepted that endorsement. Problem is that now Stevens is under indictment for lying about political gifts received. In July of this year, before the indictment but after the FBI raided Stevens' home, Palin and Stevens held a joint news conference and said there was no political distance between them. However, now that Palin is on McCain's "maverick" platform, the McCain campaign is keeping mum about whether Palin will or will not support Stevens' campaign.

Yet more evidence that McCain didn't think through his choice for veep. Either McC has to look the other way while Palin endorses Stevens and tries to keep that Senate seat on the Republican side of the aisle (and shows the country that he's no maverick and that the GOP is the SOS), or he insists that she not endorse Stevens and he loses the Republican Senate seat and all the party-goodwill that he might have gained from Alaska by nominating their governor as VP. Idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: SharonA
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 11:09 PM

Jack the Sailor: I take it you mean "there is no way they will vote for a pro-CHOICE candidate." Ironic, isn't it, that McCain was a soldier in Vietnam -- there was a time when HE would have been called a "baby-killer". But nowadays, retroactive abortion by war seems to be the righteous thing to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 11:41 PM

Sorry SharonA, I often make that mistake. Of course nearly ever human being is pro-life, so that silly definition has never sunk into my head.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: SharonA
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 12:23 AM

Nor into mine, Jack, nor into mine. Of course, nearly every human being is in favor of living AND in favor of having a free choice! The problems come in choosing for others....
"I choose not to let you be born because I chose to have sex without planning for parenthood"
"I choose to kill you with a bomb because my country chooses to take something that your country has"
"I choose not to let you be born because someone chose to rape me and you are the product of that rape"
"I choose to shoot you dead because you are shooting at me for choosing to invade your homeland"
,,,None of these options seems preferable...

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 12:34 AM

My considered guess is that McCain is going to be unable to rein her in- Oh, is he going to be sorry... She is one stubborn lady; she don' lissen. Kind of like W with his gut feelings. Or Wally Hickel's 'little man on his shoulder'.

Of course, if the investigative body finds her guilty of using political means for private ends and reprimands her, or worse, McCain may have to cut her loose. I doubt that will happen, though- McCain has the same stubborn little man.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 12:58 AM

"Sarah Palin gave a crowd-pleasing speech after she was selected by John McCain Friday. Conservatives were thrilled and women were just ecstatic. President Bush called her and congratulated her on her Olympic gold medal in women's beach volleyball.

GOP convention delegates gathering in Minnesota Friday were overjoyed by Sarah Palin's selection. It fit the party's most pressing need this week. They had to have a candidate with no risk of being arrested in the Minneapolis airport men's room.

Sarah Palin was slammed by environmentalists for her record on wildlife issues Friday because the governor favors shooting wolves from the air. In Alaska they call that predator control. In the Democratic Party it's called keeping an eye on Bill.

Sarah Palin's choice Friday let the GOP match the Democratic ticket for exotic appeal. She's from Alaska and Barack Obama's from Hawaii. It's a chance for the Libertarian party to advertise Bob Barr as the candidate of the Lower Forty-Eight.

Governor Sarah Palin married Todd Palin 20 years ago in Alaska where there are 10 men for every woman. The atmosphere is crazy up there. Women are warned not to look for husbands in Alaska, where the odds are good but the goods are odd."

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:14 AM

Maher on Palin.... ROFLMAO.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:19 AM

The eloped, after she graduated from college in Idaho, is what I read.

There was some idiot over in a published "roundtable" at the WSJ who said she had more "executive experience" than Obama, McCain and Biden combined. All they ever did was run a "senate office." Ye gawds and gawddesses!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: emjay
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:20 AM

Sarah Palin is reputed to have an 80% approval rating here in Alaska. Well, here in Alaska I have heard from people who claim to have voted Republican all their lives who will now vote Democratic, from another who swore he would never vote for Sarah Palin again and is now faced with a dilemma.
Stop and thin about her so-called adminstrative experience in which she has attempted to micro-manage lower level employees. And she has attempted to inappropriately influence voting. There was a recent very public, very controversial ballot proposition calling for stringent controls on waste water disposal from new large scale mines. She appeared on tv saying she was appearing not as governor but as a private citizen, and saying she was voting against the proposition. She also opposes listing the polar bear as threatened or endangered species and has directed the state to bring suit against the listing. She denies there is any man-made cause of global warming.
Because one has been in an administrative position does not necessarily mean one has been a good administrator. The governor she replaced was so bad it would have been hard not to look good.
In one comment I have heard being circulated here in Alaska, "A woman voting for Sarah Palin is like a chicken voting for Col. Sanders."
There is so much more to know about Ms. Palin and so little of it tells anything about why she should be vice-president of the United States. Make that none of it would help there.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:26 AM

More like 65 and falling according to other reports.

Why Palin is the Worst VP Choice Ever.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 03:06 AM

LOL

George W Bush has more than eight years of executive experience, and look how lacking in competence he is. Looks to me like executive experience is highly overrated.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 04:09 AM

This is form a conservative columnist:

"The choice also says a lot about McCain. First, that he is a bit desperate," Coffin writes on the National Review site The Corner. "Second, that he is one arrogant SOB. McCain is essentially telling the world that he doesn't really need a Vice President.... Rather, the Office would seem poised to return to the 'proverbial warm bucket of p***' category."

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: SharonA
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 05:22 AM

Kat, which columnist was that? I'd like to read that whole column; please give us a reference. Thanks!

More to the point, which are the conservatives who are supporting McInsane's choice of Palin? (Aside from Rush Limbaugh, of course... he's a given.)

Speaking of Rush, I just took a peek at his site, and one of his lead "stories" draws the parallel I drew earlier in this thread between Palin and Monica Lewinsky. Rush's headline: "Hillary's place taken by another woman... again." I knew that political cartoonists (or, in this case, politics' biggest cartoon) would be all over this aspect of the nomination. His unintended insinuation, though, is that McCain's veep is servicing Bill Clinton! This is what happens when they stretch the truth until it breaks: it snaps back to smack them in the face.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 08:18 AM

nice to know Obama's supporters have claimed the high ground... (NOT)


I guess it is only a lie if you blame it on the Bush administration.





Sunday, August 31, 2008
Lefty Bloggers Go After Palin's Daughter

Posted by: Amanda Carpenter at 5:47 PM

Members of the lefty blogosphere haven't stopped perpetuating the rumor Sarah Palin "faked" her last pregnancy and are now humiliating her daughter Bristol on the blatantly incorrect suspicion she is the real mother of baby Trig.

"Sarah Palin is NOT the Mother" is the title of this DailyKos blog that accuses Bristol, a completely fit-looking adolescent teen, of having a "baby bump" in a photo they allege was taken March 9th of this year.

"Sarah, I'm calling you a liar" wrote blogger ArcXIX. "And not even a good one. Trig Paxson Van Palin is not your son. He is your grandson. The sooner you come forward with this revelation to the public, the better. " Photos of Bristol with detailed commentary about her abdomen are contained in the post.

Not only is the DailyKos disgustingly inspecting Bristol's midriff with all the fervor of LA paparazzi examining J-Lo's or Jennifer Aniston's washboard stomachs for evidence of a "bump," the DailyKos is wrong on when the photo was taken. It was taken, and published, by the Anchorage Daily News in 2006. Baby Trig, a child with Down's Syndrome, was born on April 18, 2008. That's a long time for a teen girl to be carrying a "bump" which looks nothing more than the curve of a tight sweater.

Shortly after Palin was announced as McCain's VP, bloggers at the Kos started ginning up the rumor Palin faked her pregnancy, allegedly to cover for an illegitimate grandchild, because she looked so fit and trim in photos taken a few months before giving birth.

This is only the latest in outrageous attacks against Palin as a mother. Fox News anchor Alan Colmes, of Hannity & Colmes, titled a recent post on his blog Liberaland "Did Palin Take Proper PreNatal Care?" In it, he wondered if she somehow was at fault for having a disabled child. Colmes took down the post after being attacked by the blog Wizbang and later reposted a screenshot of the blog to prove he "wasn't running away from what I posted."

Update: I originally mentioned this Kos rumor in a blog post about CNN's John Roberts's insinuation Palin would not give adequate care and attention to Trig if she became VP.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 09:20 AM

I would have thought by now, Bruce, you would have realized that all political parties have some good people in them. And, conversely, share the dregs among them. The number of scurrilous false reports about Obama that the true-and-red right wingers have promulgated outnumber those from the Obama camp by a large factor.

Besides, Palin as she is is quite funny enough, without inventing Kerry-like falsehoods about her.

"Remember, Alaska's the closest part of our continent to Russia, so it's not as if she doesn't understand what's at stake here."
-- Cindy McCain, on Palin's lack of national security experience

The logic of this proposition, which has been echoed by at least one TV commentator from the right wing camp, is so dismayingly moronic as to make one think one is in Wonderland.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 09:27 AM

Obama is going to be clinging to his guns and religion before this is over and... Oh yeah, that's right, he'a already clinging to his religion. We just need to figure out which religion that is...

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 09:46 AM

Because of Palin? Come on, Rig. She is a lightweight.

On the subject Bruce raised of scurrilous attacks, here's a description of the Mcain vs Bush contest in South Carolina during the Reppublican primaries last time:

"The crucible came in South Carolina, where the tone took a decidedly low turn. Bush stood by as a surrogate at a campaign event accused McCain of forgetting fellow veterans when he returned after five and a half years of captivity in North Vietnam. At McCain headquarters, reports kept pouring in about flyers and phone calls insinuating all manner of scurrilous things about the senator — he had fathered a black child out of wedlock, he beat his wife, he was mentally unstable, he had a secret Vietnamese family, he was a Manchurian candidate, he was gay, his wife was a drug addict and so forth. Bush denied any involvement in the whisper campaign, but for his own part took umbrage at a McCain ad saying the Texas governor "twists the truth like Clinton."

"Stuff happened in South Carolina that none of us liked," Mark Salter, McCain's alter ego, told me over a beer in a hotel bar during a campaign swing in New England last month. "But you never knew how much" was orchestrated by Bush or his people. McCain's campaign was crushed in South Carolina, and McCain did little to hide his anger, calling Bush "a combination of the Cowardly Lion, the Tin Man and the Scarecrow" — in other words, a man with no courage, no heart and no brain. Cindy McCain stewed over the attacks, particularly the "illegitimate black child" allegation, a vicious reference to their adopted daughter Bridget, a baby she brought home from an orphanage in Bangladesh run by Mother Teresa. The night of the primary, Cindy cried in the candidate's hotel suite...."

Seems this is not a party specific attribute, does it not?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 10:17 AM

Maureen Dowd on Ms Sarah Palin's selection.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 10:21 AM

Do you make choices in your life to effect poor choices in your past, or do you make choices to effect your future?

It is a serious question. I am inclined to think that most of your choices are geared to effect your future.

The below rhetoric however is slanted to condemn the chooser past and future...

"I choose not to let you be born because I chose to have sex without planning for parenthood"

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 10:22 AM

"Because of Palin? Come on, Rig. She is a lightweight."


               Not compared to Obama!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 11:00 AM

Compared to Obama she is fluff, dude. Harvard law versus a degree in psychobabble from, where was it, U. Minn??    Mayor of Wasilia versus Senator from Illinois? Hockey mom?? You got eyes asleep?   Wake your eyes up, bro. They got some plain seeing to do.




A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 11:05 AM

robomatic,

get well soon. You were indeed brave to elect to have a vasectomy at sea.

Some choices are permanent.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 11:23 AM

Amos,

" Mayor of Wasilia versus Senator from Illinois? Hockey mom?? "

She has been a gov. of a state- a higher position, and an executive. Obama has been a Sen. for about the same time- and has done very little other than run for President. If SHE is not qualified, then Obama needs to slink out the back door before someone looks at what he has DONE- I HAVE posted his votes FROM HIS SITE in several threads.

She has more experience.

You may not agree with her, but then, I don't agree with Obama- Does that give me the right to claim that HE is only a "basketball dad"?

Feel free to say that you do not want her to be VP, but don't give us any bull about HER not being qualified while claiming Obama is.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: pdq
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 11:31 AM

"Feel free to say that you do not want her to be VP, but don't give us any bull..."

Well put, bb! Please repeat that as often as needed until it gets through some of the thick skulls around here.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 11:32 AM

Here you go, Sharon: Click. That's where I read that quote. It's by Shannen Coffin a former something-or-other to Dick Cheney.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 11:36 AM

In 2006 she beat the corrupt male establishment in Alaska to win the governorship. She opposes same-sex marriage, but one of her first acts in office was to veto a bill blocking health benefits for gay lovers of public employees.

She hunts, ice-fishes and is a crack shot who knows how to fire an M16 rifle. "I was raised in a family where gender was not going to be an issue," she said. "The girls did what the boys did. Apparently in Alaska that's quite commonplace." No softy, she sued to stop the federal government making polar bears an endangered species and favours drilling for oil in the Arctic wildlife refuge. However, she also levied a windfall tax on oil companies. "
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article4641030.ece#cid=OTC-RSS&attr=797093


"Ron Bonjean, top strategist for Senate and House Republicans

The brilliant choice of Gov. Palin is that is has energized the conservative base while appealing to independents, working moms, disaffected Hillary voters and those who want change brought to Washington. It was smart, outside-the-box thinking to shake up the Obama momentum and has turned the media upside down on news coverage.

Sen. Obama's inexperience is actually being amplified through McCain's choice. The more Obama's campaign and its surrogates attack Gov. Palin on her positive track record, the more damage they do to Obama's brand. Their attacks have a boomerang effect because it allows McCain's team to remind voters that Obama doesn't have strong leadership credentials.

Gov. Palin's challenge will be to perform flawlessly over the next 60 days, because any mistake or misfire can quickly shape her image among voters who are still absorbing this choice.
"

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 11:54 AM

Right... brilliant of her to notice how polar bears are not endangered; like other unaware creatures they only think they are drowning.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 11:56 AM

Obama taught constitutional law for 12 years. Palin's statements show that she has not had even a basic education in science. Bush doesn't seem to care about the constitution let alone understand it. A president who is an expert in the constitution is experience we need! Calling her time as governor in Alaska as 'executive experience' is a joke.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 12:02 PM

IF you compare the management of the two campaigns over the last year, you will find that McCain's leadership was a nervous wreck compared to Obama's, and he ended up having to go to Karl Rove and his ex-minions for help.

But the problem wasn't that McCain was too decent and not ruthless enough. It was that he either had bad judgement, or exercised it far too little. ;>)


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: olddude
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 12:05 PM

The biggest problem I have is when I hear about the issues. Then I hear McCain and Palin talk about how the republican party will fix the issues America faces, I have to ask ... gee didn't the party have 8 years to do it alrighty?

McCain and Palin were not in charge but they spout out in praise the existing policies that didn't work for 8 years. I heard it was the democrats that don't want to drill off shore hence the gas problem blame it on the dems. Ok, I am one of those who don't think drilling will fix anything. But if the drilling was going to magically fix the gas situation ... Ahhhhh am I wrong ...didn't they have 8 years to do that? Ahhhhh didn't GW have a republican controled congress also ...

If immigration is so high up on the list (not mine but ok)
ahhhh didn't they have 8 years to fix that also ...

my list goes on an on

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 12:14 PM

The arguments over experience are rediculous... I mean, lets get real here... Dick Cheney and Feorge Bush each came to office in 2000 with more "experience" than either Palin or Obama... This is a red herring discussion which hides the more important issue of just what the positions are between Obama and Palin.

Palin has been a critic of big oil because it was not drilling, ahhhh, fast enough...

Palin would sertainly, if it were in her power, nominate a Supreme Court Justice who would be the last one needed to make abortion illegal.

Palin would be a rubber stamp for whatever position the NRA wnated furthered and would appoint pro NRA Suprme Court justices...

Palin would continue the occupation of Iraq for the next hundred years...

Palin would cut social programs whereever she could get away with it...

Palin would support the unconstitutional Patriot Act...

Palin would support the Bush tax cuts which have been a major reason for the current state of our economy...

Palin would continue to support every danged Department of Defense request for more and more money...

This is what this election is about, folks, so to my friends here who have allowed themselves to get bopgged down with the bogus "experience" argument you are being led into the usual Republcan trap that diverts youe attention away from the things that the Repubs don't want to talk about...

If you truly support a progressive agenda than ignore the red herrings that the Repubs are throwing at you... Every day they can keep the real issues off the table is another day they win the debate...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 12:39 PM

"Harvard law versus a degree in psychobabble from, where was it, U. Minn??"


                   University of Idaho. But don't forget, Obama was portraying himself as a minority, and affirmative action was-and-is very much in vogue at places like Harvard.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 12:46 PM

"portraying himself as a minority"

???!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 12:57 PM

Well, his mother is not, after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:01 PM

Sent: Sat, 30 Aug 2008 1:22 pm
Subject: Fwd: from a friend's classmate about the Rep VP


This is one Alaskan's point of view, which seems useful to share,
one-sided thou gh it may be.
Mudcatters, this from a friend. All you have to do is Google Palin's bio readily available online to find this consistent with it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

What an election season ahead!

As an Alaskan, I am writing to give all of you some information on
Sarah Palin, Senator McCain's choice for VP. As an Alaska voter, I
know more than most of you about her and, frankly, I am horrified that
he picked her.

The most accurate description of her is red neck. Her husband works in
the oil fields of Prudhoe Bay and races snow mobiles. She is a life
time member of the NRA and has worked tirelessly to allow
indiscriminate hunting of wildlife in Alaska, particularly wolves and
bears. She has spent millions of Alaska state dollars on aerial
hunting=2 0of these predators from helicopters and airplanes, dollars
that should have been spent, for example, on Alaska's failing school
system.We have the lowest rate of high school graduation in the
country. Not all of you may think aerial predator hunting is so bad,
but how anyone (other than Alaska wolf-haters, of which there are
many, most without teeth), could think this use of funds is
appropriate is beyond me. If you want to know more about the aerial
hunting travesty, let me know and I will send some links to
informative web sites.

She has been a strong supporter of increased use of fossil fuels, yet
the McCain campaign has the nerve to say she has "green" policies. The
only thing green about Sarah Palin is her lack of experience. She has
consistently supported drilling in ANWR, use of coal-burning power
plants (as I write this, a new coal plant is being built in her home
town of Wasilla), strip mining, and almost anything else that will
unnecessarily exploit the diminishing resources of Alaska and destroy
its environment.

Prior to her one year as governor of Alaska, she was mayor of Wasilla,
a small red neck town outside Anchorage.The average maximum education
level of parents of junior high school kids in Wasilla is 10th grade.
Unfortunately, I have to go to Wasilla every week to get groceries and
other supplies, so I have continual contact with the people who put
Palin in office in the first place. I know what I'm t alking about.
These people don't have a concept of the world around them or of the
serious issues facing the US. Furthermore, they don't care. So long as
they can go out and hunt their moose every fall, kill wolves and bears
and drive their snow mobiles and ATVs through every corner of the
wilderness, they're happy. I wish I were exaggerating.

Sarah Palin is currently involved in a political corruption scandal.
She fired an individual in law enforcement here because she didn't
like how he treated one of her relatives during a divorce. The man's
performance and ability weren't considered; it was a totally personal
firing and is currently under investigation. While the issue isn't
close to the scandal of Ted Steven's corruption, it shows that Palin
isn't "squeaky clean" and causes me to think there ay be more issues
that could come to light. Clearly McCain doesn't care.

When you line Palin up with Biden, the comparison would be laughable
if it weren't so serious. Sarah Palin knows nothing of economics
(admittedly a weak area for McCain), or of international affairs,
knows nothing of national government, Social Security, unemployment,
health care systems - you name it. The idea of her meeting with heads
of foreign governments around the world truly frightens me.

In an increasingly dangerous world, with the economy in shambles in
the US, Sarah Palin is uniquely UNqualified to be vice president. John
McCain is not a young man. Should something happen to him such that
the vice president had to step in, it would destroy our country and
possibly the world to have someone as inexperienced and inappropriate
as Sarah Palin. The choice of Palin is a cheap shot by McCain to try
to get Hillary supporters to vote for him. when McCain introduced her
today, Palin had the nerve to compare herself with Hillary and
Geraldine Ferraro. Sarah Palin, you are no Hillary Clinton.

To those of you who, like me, supported Hilary and were upset that she
did not get the nomination, please don't think that Sarah Palin is a
worthy substitute. If you supported Hillary, regardless of what you
think the media and the democratic party may have done to undermine
her campaign, the person to support now is Obama, not Sarah Palin. To
those of you who are independent or undecided, don't let the choice of
Palin sway you in favor of McCain. Choosing her shows how unqualified
McCain is to be president. To those of you who are conservative, I
guess you have no choice for president. But please try to see how the
poor choice of Palin tells us a great deal about McCain's judgment.
While the political posturing inherent in the choice of Palin is
obvious, the more serious issue is the fact that the VP is, literally,
a heartbeat away from the presidency. Sarah Palin is totally and
unequivocally unqualified to be vice president, let alone president.

I know this is a lengthy and emotional email, but the stakes are high.
I thought it might help for all of you, regardless of political
affiliation, to know something about Palin from someone who has to
live with her administration in Alaska on a daily basis.


Distinguished Teaching Professor
Chair American Studies/Media and Communications

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:03 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 11:23 AM

Amos,

" Mayor of Wasilia versus Senator from Illinois? Hockey mom?? "

>>She has been a gov. of a state- a higher position, and an executive. Obama has been a Sen. for about the same time- and has done very little other than run for President. If SHE is not qualified, then Obama needs to slink out the back door before someone looks at what he has DONE- I HAVE posted his votes FROM HIS SITE in several threads.<<

Obama was in the illinois legislature for eight years, He has been a Senator for three and two thirds years whereas Plain has been a governor for one and two thirds years. The Bull shit is call that the same.

She has more experience.

MORE BULLSHIT.

>>You may not agree with her, but then, I don't agree with Obama- Does that give me the right to claim that HE is only a "basketball dad"?<<

You have the right to say what you want. but you would be wrong in saying that. Palin calls her self "just a hockey mom" every time she speaks. So no one is wrong to call her "just a hockey mom" when that's how she describes herself.

>>Feel free to say that you do not want her to be VP, but don't give us any bull about HER not being qualified while claiming Obama is.<<

This is from David (axis of evil) From's blog on the New Republic Online.

I (and most NRO readers) will vote against Barack Obama because I oppose his ideas. He is (at best) an old-line Walter Mondale taxer, spender, and regulator possibly still under the influence (at worst) of the radical alienation from America preached in his church and expressed in his own early writings. I'd vote against a candidate like this even if he had previously served as CEO of Google, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and Governor of California, with a Nobel prize on top of it all.

That said: Can we conservatives please stop kidding ourselves about Barack Obama's "qualifications"? Yes, if I had been a Democratic donor back in 2006, I'd sure worry about whether Barack Obama had what it took to be president. That was before he took on the toughest political operation in America, before he beat Bill and Hillary Clinton, before he won 18 million primary votes.

Obama's nomination was not handed to him. He fought hard for it and won against the odds. "Qualifications" predict achievement. Once you have achieved, it doesn't matter what your qualifications are. Who cares whether the guy who built a big company from nothing didn't have much of a resume when he started? But if you are applying to run a big company built by somebody else, the resume matters ...

The worst mistake in any fight is to under-estimate your opponent's abilities. Look what happened to the people who under-estimated Reagan. If conservatives are to have any hope in the coming weeks, we should wake up to the fact that we face in Barack Obama a formidable man, who appeals to something important and deep in the American electorate. He's not a superman, he has vulnerabilities, he can be beaten. But he won't be beaten until we who are trying to beat him understand why and how he has come so far.

This is an excellent description of Obama's current qualifications.

Likewise, had Sarah Palin decided in 2005 to run for president in 2008 - had she spent 3 years mastering the issues and explaining her views in public statements - had she one by one recruited leading experts on economic and defense issues to her cause and privately explored the issues of the day with them - then her current background would not be disqualifying. Indeed it would resemble that of many successful presidents.

Obama has edicated himself and built a powerful network of contacts to help him govern.

Palin has been a shill for the oil companies. She has administered a state with a huge budgetary surplus, which receives 7 federal dollars for every dollar in taxes that its people remit to Washington. Even with those advantages, she has lied about her involvement with the bridge to nowhere. She only opposed it after it had no chance. And even then she did not return the money that was allocated for it. She also abused her power in trying to get her brother in law fired. Worse than that she lied about it. Quite an accomplishment in just a year and a half. If tainting the office is the goal.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:11 PM

Well, Jack, you make a good point that neither one of them is actually qualified to be president, but the difference is she's running for vice-president.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:24 PM

Rig,

If you are going to deliberately lie about what I have said, don't talk to me please. I know you are just trolling for a reaction and trying to look clever, but it pisses me off.

I just made the point that David Frum, Bush's former speechwriter, has said, in no uncertain terms that Obama is ready to be President and Palin is not.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: olddude
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:24 PM

In Defense,
I am by no means at all supporting her or McCain. But I was just thinking about this. While we all sit around and complain about how things are, the folks in both parties opened their private lives up to the world, spent their money, and decided to try and do something about it. We all disagree on the manner in which they intend to change things. However, unlike all of us, every one who decides to run didn't sit the bench like we are all doing. Sad really, make me think I should toss my hat into something to try and make a difference. Maybe we all should think about running for something. Maybe we can make things just a little better for someone else

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:28 PM

One heart-beat, or lack thereof, away from President; a reckless gamble indeed, given the fate of the nation may hinge on that one heartbeat.

Furthermore, until a very short while ago, she had no notion what a Vice President of the country did.

His qualifications, earned by marshaling a major campaign with extensive talent and skill, were already distinctive. I seriously doubt whether you or I could have matched his Harvard career or his accomplishments teaching constitutional law. His legislative accomplishments are as good or better than the current Resident's. I don't know what the dark bias is that you view him through, but I would urge you to reassess in a new moment without the preconceived judgements you bring to bear. (Bruce is almost guaranteed to take this last and do his polar-inversion-semantic-nullification-field generation trick on it.)


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:35 PM

I mean no offense by this Old dude, but speak for yourself please. While neither Carol no I is a Democrat. We have opened our wallets to donate and our home to voluteers. We have knocked on doors, cooked meals for out of state coordinators, and driven people to the poles in the primary election.

You don't have to run to make a difference.

There are plenty things to do for the Obama Campaign and they would love to have your help.

On the other hand, it would be remiss of you as a citizen not to question Palin's qualifications and character. If we all had looked closer at George W Bush in 2000 we might not be in the mess we are now.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:39 PM

It doesn't help anyone for people to spread rumors like the one about Palin's daughter being Trig's mother.

As a response to the rumors, Palin has announced her daughter's pregnancy (she's currently five months pregnant).

I have only one thing to say about this. I guess this shows us exactly how effective just teaching abstinence is in preventing teen pregnancies.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080901/pl_nm/usa_politics_palin_dc_3

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: olddude
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:40 PM

Jack your point is very well taken. I have my obama signs up all over the place and doing the same. I just think there should be more good people in office. I think many people just don't think about running that's all. Maybe a good time for us or at least someone that from time to time maybe though of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:52 PM

sorry, no cookie:


"Bruce is almost guaranteed to take this last and do his polar-inversion-semantic-nullification-field generation trick on it"

You mean even YOU can see that what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, and YOU need to apply your own statement to YOUR biased viewpoint???

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:53 PM

Debate all you would like about her ability, but this is a person that wouldn't accept the nomination until she knew what the job of the VP was. That's because she is used to being busy. Wow!!! Now there is a wonderful candidate to be a heartbeat away. Those that talk about her ability to fight corruption are kidding themselves. Comparing negotiating the politic of Alaska with the politic of Chicago, or especially the politic inside the beltway, is a bit like debating the job of Sheriff of a small town in Alaska with the Police Chief of New York City. There is a whole different degree of sophistication, managerial training and experience, and then you have a much more sophisticated press to deal with.

She will flame out, and in the not too distant future, IMHO. The media dogs of war are already starting to work. They smell the blood in the water.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:55 PM

Olddude,

I take your suggestion as well meant but I'll speak for myself again. We can't all be the king bee, some of us are just the drones. In Canada, I knew a lot of politicians, including men who went on to be come federal ministers of Finance and Fisheries. I helped in a local campaign for city council here in Wilmington. I know that I don't have the skills or the temperament to be elected. The best use of my time is to find someone I can support and support them.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:57 PM

"I have only one thing to say about this. I guess this shows us exactly how effective just teaching abstinence is in preventing teen pregnancies."


What a bunch of crap, CarolC.


There's no where that "just teaches abstinence."

Today's teenagers are in such a hurry to grow up that ALL of them tend to make choices to do things before they are ready.

Yes...ALL. Those that belong to democrats, republicans, liberals, conservatives, white, black, latino, or any other group that exists within our borders.

Take off your blinders and stop acting like the little old lady next door with a good juicy bit of gossip.

Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:01 PM

Yes, and since all teenagers do things like that, we need to provide very thorough sex education, and promote the use of birth control among teenagers. Statistics show that when this is done, there are fewer teen pregnancies than when abstinence-based sex education is used, as we can see in the case of the Palin's daughter.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:03 PM

>>>"Bruce is almost guaranteed to take this last and do his polar-inversion-semantic-nullification-field generation trick on it"

You mean even YOU can see that what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, and YOU need to apply your own statement to YOUR biased viewpoint???<<<

Bruce, While "sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander" Is a tried and sometimes true cliche, you over use it and use it without thought to the context. Most people have eyes enough to see that while Obama and McCain both have weaknesses as candidates, there are very few places where those weaknesses precisely overlap. Yet you constantly take a criticism of "McCain", do a "search and replace" for "Obama" and pretend that you have said something thoughtful.

Do you actually apply any intellectual effort of your own into these debates? Do you ever bother to think about what is said? If you do the effort does not show. Why don't you express some of your own opinions?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:06 PM

>>Today's teenagers are in such a hurry to grow up that ALL of them tend to make choices to do things before they are ready.

Yes...ALL. Those that belong to democrats, republicans, liberals, conservatives, white, black, latino, or any other group that exists within our borders.<<

Susu's hubby, you should be writing ads for "Planned Parenthood."

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:09 PM

Mick has had a lot of political experience and I think his judgement may be spot on in this case. It seems obvious that Palin has not had the experience she needs to even run for VP much more than do the job. It seems likely that that lack of experience will become apparent between now and November 4.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:10 PM

"Today's teenagers are in such a hurry to grow up that ALL of them tend to make choices to do things before they are ready."

What horseshit. It may be difficult, but think back to when you were 17. This is nothing new with teenagers. Only a fool would assume that abstinence is going to work.   Carol C is 100% correct - the lack of proper education in our schools today creates more problems. 20 or 30 years ago the schools were able to teach about contraception, but today it has become an issue thanks to the "family values" that the Republican hypocrits have heaped upon us.    It all comes home.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:14 PM

MY opinion is that many of the comments made here are narrow-minded, bigoted attacks on the person and not a reasonable criticism of the policies advocated. I have tried to point out that the insults apply as much to the other side: If a statement is unfair when stated against one side, it is as unfair when appled to the other- given that no facts to support specific insults are presented.


You do your candidate no good by your baseless attacks.



YOU state "On the other hand, it would be remiss of you as a citizen not to question Palin's qualifications and character."

I will remind you, it is as important, if not more important to apply it to BOTH sides:

On the other hand, it would be remiss of you as a citizen not to question Obama's qualifications and character.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: DougR
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:18 PM

I believe, Donuel, that Palin is a one term governor. Could be wrong, but I was wrong one other time too. Even with only one term, though, she has more executive experience than Obama.

As to the "experience issue," she will be occupying the position of VP, not president. That will allow her to have on the job training in the areas where she has little or no experience such as foreign affairs. Obama is woefully lacking in foreign affairs and would have no time for OJT. THe "buck" were there one would stop at his desk immediately upon being sworn in as president. Well, he has Biden to lean on you say? One of the major complaints liberals have about Bush is he relied too much on his VP, particularly on issues of defense. Biden would be the next batter up, not the batter in the box.

I think McCain made a good choice.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:20 PM

On the other hand, it would be remiss of you as a citizen not to question Obama's qualifications and character.

Damn right. I think we have done our questioning and have made our choice, now it is your turn.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:27 PM

I repeat, calling a year in the Alaska governor's office "executive experience" is a joke.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:27 PM

DougR,

Like many people who vote the way you do, you have a problem with basic math.

Palin will be a one term governor in January 2011. Right now she is a 2/5th 's term governor.

She is a first term governor, But she cam harldy take credit for the whole term.

As for the "experience issue" John McCain said a month or so ago that his most important requirement for VP was someone who would be ready on day one if something happened to him. As usual we have to decide which McCain to believe; the McCain of the Present day of the McCain of the recent past.

Seriously, how can you believe a word that comes from his age addled mouth?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:30 PM

>>You do your candidate no good by your baseless attacks.

If you feel that they are baseless attacks, how much good do you think you are doing your candidate by simply trying to turn them around?

You are not making a lot of sense here Bruce.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:34 PM

>>On the other hand, it would be remiss of you as a citizen not to question Obama's qualifications and character.

Damn right. I think we have done our questioning and have made our choice, now it is your turn.<<<

Ron is right on the money here. Obama has been well vetted, He has survived trial by Clinton.

Your gal got her governor's nomination by not being as corrupt as the other guy. She got her VP nomination by being an anti-abortion woman. Now is when the vetting must begin for her.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:44 PM

Palin thinks the founding fathers wrote the Pledge of Allegiance.


If it was good enough for the founding fathers, its good enough for me

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:45 PM

LOL!

The Pledge of Allegiance was written by a SOCIALIST!


I would love to be able to tell her that to her face and watch her reaction.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 03:11 PM

Ms. Palin has announced that her daughter Bristol (17) is pregnant. Made me smile. Shit happens.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 03:27 PM

At a brief press availability in Monroe, Mich., ABC News asked Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., if he had any response to Gov. Sarah Palin's statement that her unmarried 17-year-old daughter Bristol is pregnant.

"Let me be a clear as possible: I have said before and I will repeat again, I think people's families are off limits," Obama said, "and people's children are especially off limits.

"This shouldn't be part of our politics," he continued, "It has no relevance to Gov. Palin's performance as governor, or her potential performance as a vice president.

"And so I would strongly urge people to back off these kinds of stories," he said. "You know my mother had me when she was 18, and how a family deals with issues and, you know, teenage children, that shouldn't be the topic of our politics and I hope that anybody who is supporting me understands that's off limits."

---

Obviously, Obama's character speaks in higher tones than McCain's.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 03:31 PM

"I just made the point that David Frum, Bush's former speechwriter, has said, in no uncertain terms that Obama is ready to be President and Palin is not."


                   Just goes to show, this Frum feller ain't any too smart!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 03:34 PM

I note with interest that Riginslinger has nothing to say about Palin's lack of knowledge on the Pledge of Allegiance.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 03:38 PM

"The Pledge of Allegiance was written by a SOCIALIST!"

               Read the entry. The guy was a Baptist Minister. If he was a socialist as well, he must have been bi-polar.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 03:38 PM

"Just goes to show, this Frum feller ain't any too smart!"

You are right Riginslinger, anyone who would supply Bush with things to say cannot be the sharpest tool in the shed.   You would think if the man was any sort of speechwriter, he could at least make the speaker look like he had an ounce of brains.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 03:41 PM

"Read the entry. The guy was a Baptist Minister. If he was a socialist as well, he must have been bi-polar. "

You are really getting desparate when you try to twist the obvious. Spin doctor is not a good career move for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 03:44 PM

This baptist minister/socialist, Rig, was not one of our founding fathers, would you agree? :)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 03:51 PM

He was a socialist.

http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Socialism

Believe it or not, it is possible to be both a Christian and a socialist.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 03:54 PM

The reason that is possible, by the way, is because Christianity is a religion and socialism is an economic system. To say that a Christian must be bipolar in order to also be a socialist would be like saying that a Christian would have to be bipolar to also be a capitalist. It's a non-sequitur.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 03:57 PM

Read the book, Carol. "Religion is the opiate of the masses."
             There is no was to effectively organize a state when you have buffoons running around paying homage to non-existent gods.
But better a socialist than a minister, I say.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 04:01 PM

I did not know you were such a tap dancer Rigin

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 04:03 PM

Grab your coat and get your hat
Leave your worries on the doorstep
Life can be so sweet
On the sunny side of the street

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 04:12 PM

and so well rehearsed!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 04:21 PM

If people embrace a socialist economic system, they're socialists. Paying homage to gods (non-existant or otherwise) doesn't change that.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 04:29 PM

I'm pretty sure that "religion is the opiate of the masses was written by a Marxist." ;-)

There are social democratic parties all over Europe who hate and denounce most of Marx's more cynical and radical ideas.

Also remember that Hitler was a Nationalist Socialist and hardly a follower of Karl Marx.

Sometimes I think your political association is Groucho Marxist.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 04:38 PM

he Pledge of Allegiance was written in 1892 by Francis Bellamy (1855-1931), a Baptist minister, a Christian Socialist, and the cousin of Socialist Utopian novelist Edward Bellamy (1850-1898). Bellamy's original "Pledge of Allegiance" was published in the September 8th issue of the popular children's magazine The Youth's Companion as part of the National Public-School Celebration of Columbus Day, a celebration of the 400th anniversary of Christopher Columbus's discovery of America, conceived by James B. Upham.

Read the quote...



A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 04:50 PM

It might be fun for some historian to actually count the number of founding fathers who have actually recited the pledge. Certainly not all of them. No doubt a lot of them had passed on by 1892. In fact if a man had, lets say signed the Declaration of independence in his twenties, he would have had to survive to about one hundred and thirty to have even heard of the pledge.

Is this Sarah Barracuda's first "Dan Quayle" moment?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 05:14 PM

Amos -- you beat me to it. I was getting ready to post Obama's response to the news of the pregnancy. The man has class--kids are (or should be) clearly off limits. NPR just indicated that the couple will marry -- were it my daughter, I would welcome the young man into our home but BEG them not to marry. If they are still together in five years, then they can get married........but here speaks a woman who offered birth control to both of her daughters when they were 15-- both of whom accepted. They are now 27 and 23, lovely healthy young women, with balanced views of sex and NO CHILDREN. Both are in long term committed relationships and one will be getting married next year....sorry, this is probably thread creep but I am so proud of them and feel so strongly that babies having babies is just a terrible idea.......and Just Say NO doesn't do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 05:21 PM

TRUBRIT

I admire your parenting choices.
Your daughters are lucky to have you.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 06:03 PM

sorry...


Obama on Palin

Politico's Carrie Budoff Brown reports: At a press avail in Monroe, Mich., Barack Obama on Palin: "Back off these kinds of stories."

"I have said before and I will repeat again: People's families are off limits," Obama said. "And people's children are especially off-limits. This shouldn't be part of our politics. It has no relevance to Gov. Palin's performance as a governor or her potential performance as a vice president. So I would strongly urge people to back off these kinds of stories. You know my mother had me when she was 18 and how a family deals with issues and teenage children, that shouldn't be a topic of our politics."

On charges that his campaign has stoked the story via liberal blogs:

"I am offended by that statement. There is no evidence at all that any of this involved us," he said. "Our people were not involved in any way in this, and they will not be. And if I thought there was somebody in my campaign who was involved in something like that, they would be fired."

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 06:21 PM

Democrats should be ashamed of suggesting that drug addled Cindy McCain is pregnant with Karl Rove's child when Rush Limbaugh orally impregnated her.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 06:33 PM

Apparently the Barracuda's brain is just as nimble as McCains and she has as good a grasp of fact as does Geo. Dumbya.

What more could a NeoCon BuShite wish for!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 06:33 PM

At this point it appears Palin has a reputation for fighting corruption. That makes the allegation that she had her brother-in-law, a member of the Alaska police fired because of how he was treating her sister, particularly sensitive. At this point she defends herself by saying that he was fired for other reasons.   But this issue is absolutely crucial--and if she does not come out of it squeaky clean, she has just sunk McCain's candidacy.

I also hope everybody reads the Huffington Post article cited earlier. The author makes the excellent point that the Palin candidacy will probably have the effect of lighting the fire under Hillary that nothing else could-- to break her neck working for Obama, rather than see this arriviste take her place as the " leading woman candidate for president".

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: DougR
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 06:42 PM

Donuel: you are a real piece of work.

Alice: So you argue that Obama has scads of executive experience? Where? Doing what? For that matter what executive experience does Joe Biden have? He is a professional senator.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 06:44 PM

The thing that bothers me most isn't that this woman is a red-neck with a bad temper but that there are one heck of alot of Americans poised to vote against their own interests just so that they won't have to vote for a black man and who might one day be wonderin' what the Hell made them vote that way...

In an intellegent world where people are, ahhhhhh, eductaed the selection of this woman should have given Obama a 20 point jump..,.

Beam me up, Scotty... There's very little intellegent life left down here...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 06:47 PM

Doug, I don't think what you are calling "executive experience" is the issue in being a good president. Intelligence and judgment are more important - as Dubya has shown in his failure to be a good president. This is just a red herring, the 'executive' label. There are plenty of examples of good presidents where were not governors or in business and plenty of bad presidents who were governors or in business (George Bush as the worst).

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 06:49 PM

What she evidently did is she fired Walt Monegan, public safety commissioner, after he refused to fire a state trooper who had divorced--and possibly mistreated--her sister. She says she fired Mr. Monegan for other reasons, having to do with the budget, etc. But at this point it's unclear--and the Alaska Legislature is investigating. Monegan says she never told him to fire the trooper, but he had pressure to do so from members of her administration.

Monegan was offered a transfer to be the director of the Alaska state alcohol control board. He declined. Then he was fired.

Really murky so far--very few facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 06:51 PM

"Beam me up, Scotty... There's very little intellegent life left down here..."


                  Bobert - You need to come up here where us Palin supporters are.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Peace
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 06:53 PM

I trust you are in an area with sufficient moisture to sustain the crop to fruition. I think you are gettin' people's goat.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Peace
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 06:54 PM

Dang. There's more than one goat, so I'd better pluralize that: goats.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 06:57 PM

Maybe I'll just sit back and read for a while!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 07:01 PM

"At this point it appears Palin has a reputation for fighting corruption. "

I'm not sure if she had much choice. When the FBI is investigating everyone, you need to cooperate or appear that you have something to hide.

This horsecrap about "executive experience" means nothing. Her ability to make the right decision, get people working together and instilling confidence are what any of us look for in an executive. You do not need experience to do that.   So far, I have not been impressed by her skills.   Lets see what she has to say during the campaign and debates. How she handles herself, and how ANY of the candidates handle themselves will tell the tale.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: irishenglish
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 07:59 PM

pdq said the other day- "Please start talking about issues and stop sliming people." Ok fair enough. But pdq, (just for fun) after you called me out (just for fun), challenging me on my knowledge (just for fun), did you happen to see the real answer (just for fun), after you stated what you believed was the answer (just for fun)? No, oh well, too bad, I guess you are not concerned when the sliming comes from you.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 08:10 PM

...she will be occupying the position of VP, not president.

In light of McCain's age, that should surely read:

...Touch wood, she will be occupying the position of VP, not president.

True enough, 72 isn't that old these days, and he won't have to worry about getting first rate health care - but basic common sense means that the old truism that whoever is running as vice president needs to be ready to step up to the top job on day one is doubly true with a president of that age. To ignore that is just irresponsible.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 08:18 PM

RCP Average        08/29 - 08/31        --        48.8        44.3        Obama +4.5
CBS News        08/29 - 08/31        781 RV        48        40        Obama +8
CNN        08/29 - 08/31        927 RV        49        48        Obama +1
Gallup Tracking        08/29 - 08/31        2733 RV        49        43        Obama +6
Rasmussen Tracking        08/29 - 08/31        3000 LV        49        46        Obama +

Hmmmmmm...


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 08:22 PM

Rigs,

I'm tellin' Cynthia McKinney on ya'..lol...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 08:25 PM

Yep, Obama is slowly and steadily climbing in the polls.
We'll see if McCain's convention gets him that three points back.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 08:37 PM

(I think pdq's point was that the answer is only one Senator in modern history.)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 08:55 PM

"I'm not sure she had much choice...". Actually she appears to have opposed her fellow Republicans in their corruption. Citing the FBI as reason is a simplistic--and, it appears, inaccurate-- explanation.

But the issue with the trooper is still crucial--and could destroy her reputation as a clean government crusader.

Obviously, many more facts will be coming out.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 09:01 PM

There may be a song which will emerge from this thread yet!

Seems to me that the Canadian group had a song which began:


G------------------F----------G—F---Bb-G
'Twas in the town of Pelham one dark and drea-ry day
---F---------------------------Bb----F---G----F
We local lads was in the pub, just sipping time away-a
------G-----------------F--------------G---------F--Bb/G
When in there walked this stranger who dis-turbed our con-tem-pla-tion
---F--------------------------G---F/Bb/G/F
So we decided his facial features need-ed al-te-ra-tion.
------G--------------------F---------------G—F—Bb--G
"Now what's your name, fair stranger? We've not seen you in town."
---F---------------------------Bb-----F------G----F
He answers "David Disher. I'm a man of some re-nown-on."
-----G------------------F--------------G----F/Bb/G
Says Patrick, "Well, now, Disher, lest you think that I'm remiss,
-----F----------------------------G—F--Bb/G/F
They calls me Scrappin' Paddy, and this here is me fist!"

Chorus:
G----------------------F----G---F-----G--------F-----------G-----F---G
Oh, Fight like a wildcat , learn your lesson, up jumps Paddy with a finger miss-in'
-----------------F---G---------F------------------------------G
Poor wee fist, one finger less, for seven pound ten 'twill scarce be missed!.
-----------------------F----G---F------G-------F-----------G-----F---G
Oh, fight like a wildcat , learn your lesson, up jumps Paddy with a finger miss-in'
--------------F----G-----------F------------------------------G
Poor wee fist, great bloody mess, for seven pound ten 'twill scarce be missed!
F-------------------------G
Paddy's finger 'twill scarce be missed!

Fight on, lads and ladies!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 09:04 PM

"I'm tellin' Cynthia McKinney on ya'..lol..."


               I'll find a place to hide out!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 09:12 PM

"Citing the FBI as reason is a simplistic--and, it appears, inaccurate-- explanation."

The FBI was investigating Ted Stevens. The FBI set up the sting, not Palin.   Please tell me where my statement was inaccurate. It may simplistic, but I would think simple answers are what all of us want.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 09:17 PM

Palin wouldn't have had the resources to set up a sting on Stevens that way anyway. I can't imagine that could have happened...

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: DougR
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 09:43 PM

So? Executive experience is not necessary! Perhaps, Alice, you don't think so and I respect your opinion, but I certainly don't agree.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 09:48 PM

"Executive experience is not necessary! "

ANYONE can GET experience.   Quality, not quantity is the issue. You are clinging to a number on a piece of paper that is translating into ZERO in terms of the "real world".

You can spend a decade as a short order cook in a diner, that doesn't mean you can handle the task at the Four Seasons.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 09:53 PM

I would be interested in seeing some news articles about Palin fighting corruption in Alaska from back when she was supposed to have been doing it. So far I have not found any.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: olddude
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 09:59 PM

For me not so much experience as decision making. Both candidates showed us their first major decision making ability. Obama's pick for VP, and old workhorse who is well respected and a season vet who could walk into the presidency should the need arise. McCain's first major decision, someone completely unqualified. All I need to see

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 10:02 PM

Doug, did you vote for Richard Nixon or for Gerald Ford? Neither one of them had what you are calling executive experience. But I'm sure that did not stop you from voting for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 10:04 PM

>>>So? Executive experience is not necessary! Perhaps, Alice, you don't think so and I respect your opinion, but I certainly don't agree.

Then you won't be voting for McCain right?

He's been a Senator and before that middle management in the Navy.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 10:27 PM

Anderson Cooper just asked Obama about this 'experience' issue on CNN. He replied that recommendations he put in place in legislation post Katrina and are being successfully implemented now and the fact that he has been the executive of a much larger staff and budget than Palin has in his two year campaign should put that issue to rest.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 10:31 PM

"ews continues to break regarding vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin that could, in the long term, pose serious problems to one of the main thrusts of the McCain campaign: the message of conservative reform.

The presentation of Palin as an anti-earmark, fiscally conscious pol is challenged by a review of recent political records. As mayor of Wasilla, Alaska, she hired the firm of Hoffman Silver Gilman & Blasco to help secure spending projects for her town. The expenditure apparently paid off. From 2000 through 2002, Wasilla received more than $5.5 million in federal cash for transportation and social service projects.

According to the group Citizens Against Government Waste, the city received $1 million for a bus facility in 2000. In 2001, the Wasilla Health Center was granted a half million dollars for a community mental health center. That same year the city's emergency shelter also was granted $500,000 for a transitional living program for homeless youth. A year later, the Wasilla regional dispatch center received $1 million in pork, the city was granted $1.5 million for water and sewer improvements, and received an additional $600,000 for a bus facility.

The use of the earmark system that -- as a vice presidential candidate -- Palin now criticizes continued into her tenure as governor. As the Los Angeles Times reported, the state of Alaska requested 31 earmarks worth $197.8 million for next year's federal budget. And according to Citizens Against Government Waste, Alaska received $379,669,715 in pork during fiscal year 2008, nearly $100 million more than any other state.

There are important caveats to this information: projects funded by federal earmarks are often viewed positively by voters, particularly in Alaska, and analysts argue that many earmarks serve important community functions and end up saving taxpayer funds in the long run.

But John McCain has made earmark bashing a cornerstone of his campaign, calling the spending projects a "gateway to corruption." And since taking on the responsibility of running mate, Palin too has presented herself as a thorn in the side of the earmark culture. When introduced to the public last Friday, McCain said of Palin: she "championed reform to end the abuses of earmark spending." Palin herself touted her opposition to the infamous Bridge to Nowhere, the nearly 400 million-dollar project that Alaska Sen. Ted Stevens requested and which became a rallying cry for McCain. As subsequent news reports pointed out, during her gubernatorial run in 2006, Palin backed the project and sympathized with the communities who wanted the Bridge to Nowhere money. Only when it became a national joke did she change her tune.

Making matters worse, on Monday the Washington Post reported that Palin had previously served on Ted Steven's political 527 group. The revelation is a notably thorny one for McCain. The Arizona Republican has butted heads with Stevens over spending matters (Palin, too, has challenged the longtime Senator on the matter). And Stevens was recently indicted on seven counts of corruption. On Sunday, moreover, McCain's chief surrogate and confidante, Sen. Lindsey Graham said of Palin's foreign policy experience, "if she can handle Ted Stevens she can handle Russia."..."

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 10:45 PM

"...did you vote for Richard Nixon or for Gerald Ford? Neither one of them had what you are calling executive experience."


                   Both of them served as VP's, Nixon for 8 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 10:48 PM

But the vp is not executive experience, either. Like I said, this whole 'executive' thing about Palin is a red herring.
She is a poorly educated and relatively unexperienced politician. Period.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 10:50 PM

Well, whatever one thinks of Sarah Palin, I don't see how in could be determined that seving as VP is not executive experience. They have staffs and function as executives in every sense of the word.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 11:24 PM

"simplistic"--- Question is when the FBI started investigating. We would need the exact date--with source.   That will determine if her anti-corruption push started before or after. From what I understand she has in fact been a crusader for clean government from the start.

With the possible exception of the trooper problem--which, if her improper involvement is proven, will totally destroy her reputation--and McCain's chances.

We'll see if a smoking gun is found--before November.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 11:31 PM

Also, remember what Ebbie has told us on the "Bridge to Nowhere". It's an easy target--but it was to be a bridge to somewhere--only question was whether the cost was justified.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 11:32 PM

Well, they do have tapes of her doing the very thing that Monegan is saying she did. I think I read that they have at least one email as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:06 AM

I'm still trying to figure out why being a "professional" senator is a bad thing, as in do we want an amateur to represent us? Not who I want in congress!

no. 1 definition of "executive:"

a person or group of persons having administrative or supervisory authority in an organization.

as an adjective, I really like this one:         

of, pertaining to, or suited for carrying out plans, duties, etc.: executive ability.

So, talking executive ablity? Obama hands-down!

From the the NYTs some other things apparently not vetted (there's lots more in the two page article. This (choosing Palin) was a real rush job!):

Ms. Palin now has a private lawyer in a legislative ethics investigation in Alaska into whether she abused her power in dismissing the state's public safety commissioner; that she was a member for two years in the 1990s of the Alaska Independence Party, which has at times sought a vote on whether the state should secede..

While there was no sign that her formal nomination this week was in jeopardy, the questions swirling around Ms. Palin on the first day of the Republican National Convention, already disrupted by Hurricane Gustav, brought anxiety to Republicans who worried that Democrats would use the selection of Ms. Palin to question Mr. McCain's judgment and his ability to make crucial decisions.

Although The Washington Post quoted advisers to Mr. McCain on Sunday as saying Ms. Palin had been subjected to an F.B.I. background check, an F.B.I. official said Monday the bureau did not vet potential candidates and had not known of her selection until it was made public.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Barry Finn
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:07 AM

I'm so greatful for McSane's choice in Flame.

It is important if she's a crusader that trying to fire her brother-in-law was not a personnal issue but so far there's been no reasonable explantion, hopefully one will show up soon.

Biden has the knowledge & experience on fergien policy & affairs that Obama may be lacking so on the job trainning isn't an issue
but it is in reverse for McSane & Flame, espically if anyone's gonna drop dead.


CaroleC:
"I guess this shows us exactly how effective just teaching abstinence is in preventing teen pregnancies."

Susu's Hubby
What a bunch of crap, CarolC.
There's no where that "just teaches abstinence"

Well, SH that's where the bulk of Bush money has been going for the past 8 yrs & Carole's dead on right, nothing beats a complete education not even the half assed one she & the republican's keep pushing. Seeing as she hasn't done to well with sex education, well, actually on education in general, I'd say that by her record as mayor
she's been abominable in the whole of that area as well.
Further more;
Just because she fails her daughter in her education (obvious by the out come, "unplanned") she should not be allowed to fail the future of the next generation like she did her own.

By her stance on eviormental issues she's either been paid for & bought or she's so undereducated about the issues that she's to far behind to catch up. Denying science, ignoring all the phyical warning signs, esepically when in her region it's all the more evident, she's so far from green that she'll have the voter's seeing red not


She's obviouslly no student of the Constitution, she should her keep her mouth shut about things she doesn't know about it makes her look stupid, as stupid as Geo, when she does say something about them, like the Pledge of Allegiance, haven't we had enough foolishness like this in the last 8 yrs, it make's the nation look like the laughing stock of the educated world.

She's so far to the right she'll be more than more of the same, she'll be for ripe for the insane. McCain dies & we'll all be in the shit house.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:17 AM

For my part, I think her willingness to teach Creationism in the public schools and her denial of man's contribution to global warming are very troublesome. I don't see anything else to really dislike about the woman, though.
               I'm not sure I can get over those two.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:23 AM

Clearly she has energized some people here and many in the Republican base.
Her selection is a bit brilliant and a bit insane.
What she knows she will staunchly advocate but most importantly
she does not know me or millions of people like me.

The media is of course insane to put the full faith and security of the USA on one debate between her and Biden. I can tell she is a fast learner and the fact sheet she will be memorizing will be daunting for anyone. She knows about pipelines worldwide but not the people culture or history.

The experience with GWB and micro aural electronics may also be employed with good effect, yet we all know a debate performance will not show character integrity judgement and flexibility in fluid complex situations.

What I have seen is that she is not flexible in real time. She can stick to a script but going off page is dangerous except for heart felt testimony about love of family or the like.

She can effectively intimidate and insult an opponent even better than George Bush without an understanding of deeper issues and back stories.

Of course new factoids will come to light about teenage pregnancy and DWI but all will be forgiven being a God fearing Christian family.

Being chosen after one interview/meeting is extraordinary. Even Ruby Tuesday servers get 3 interviews.

Since we all know McCain is mortal she will be seen in a PResidential role. 9 VP's became President at the loss of a President and 14 VP took over the Presidency by election.

How will people choose?    Most people will remember a 8 second TV segment to base thier decision about her. We may not know her but if she makes enough people believe she knows them, then she has done her job in the campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 01:25 AM

Great article by Eugene Robinson...


ST. PAUL, Minn. -- Has anyone noticed that Sarah Palin's central claim to political fame is a fraud? She represents herself as a fiscal conservative who abhors pork-barrel projects and said no thanks to the "bridge to nowhere" -- a $398 million span that would have linked Ketchikan, Alaska, to its airport across the Tongass Narrows. But as mayor of Wasilla (pop. 9,780), she hired a Washington lobbyist to bring home the bacon. And just two years ago as a candidate for governor, she supported both the Ketchikan bridge and the congressional earmark that would have paid most of its cost.

I know, we're not supposed to pay attention to such inconvenient details. We're supposed to be dazzled by how unaffected she is, how plain-spoken, how "genuine."

Indeed, if you don't get hung up on her actual record, Palin simply is who she is. It's not her fault that she's a former Miss Wasilla with a campy "Northern Exposure" vibe, doctrinaire social-conservative views and no discernible qualifications for being vice president. It's undeniable that people in Alaska apparently like her well enough, though they seem to have been even more shocked than the rest of us when she was named to the Republican ticket. In any event, she's not the one who created this farcical situation.

We learned last week that John McCain is not who he is -- not, at least, who he claims to be. The steady, straight-talking, country-first statesman his campaign has been selling is a fictional character. The real McCain is either alarmingly cynical or dangerously reckless.

You will recall that McCain gave the same prime criterion for choosing a running mate that every presidential candidate gives: someone who is ready to step in as president if, heaven forbid, the need arises. Barack Obama echoed those words before picking Joe Biden, who is about as prepared as a vice presidential candidate could ever be.

You will also recall that McCain and his supporters have been lecturing us about the grave and urgent dangers our country faces -- Islamic fundamentalism, the resurgence of Russia and other geopolitical threats. In a menacing world, McCain says, he will keep America safe.

So, at 72 and with a history of cancer, how could McCain choose a vice presidential nominee who has, let's face it, zero experience in foreign affairs? Being the nominal commander in chief of the Alaska National Guard doesn't count, unless you think Vladimir Putin is about to order an invasion across the Bering Strait.

At a time when the nation also confronts enormous challenges at home, Palin has, um, slightly more than zero experience in domestic affairs. The reason most people move to Alaska is that it's different from the rest of the country. Salmon fishing and snowmobile racing are not front-page news in Ohio, Pennsylvania or Florida.

McCain's political calculation in choosing Palin is obvious. Social conservatives, who had been unexcited by his candidacy, are ecstatic that he has picked a running mate who staunchly opposes abortion, favors the teaching of "intelligent design" in the public schools and generally embraces the agenda of the religious right.

I have my doubts about the other objective of McCain's gambit: to win the votes of blue-collar women who supported Hillary Clinton. For one thing, these voters disagree sharply with Palin on most of the issues. For another, initial indications are that many women were insulted at the notion that they would automatically swoon over any candidate who happened to have two "X" chromosomes. Republicans tend to have a comically simplistic view of how "identity politics" works. They should recall how African-Americans reacted when Clarence Thomas was named to the Supreme Court.

Whatever the political impact, so much for the John McCain we thought we knew. In choosing Palin, he cynically did what his party is always accusing Democrats of doing: He selected a running mate based on her potential ability to appeal to targeted segments of the electorate, rather than for her honestly assessed ability to lead the nation should the occasion arise.

The other thing we learned about McCain is that he is willing to take an enormous gamble based on limited information. He only met Palin once before summoning her for a final interview. He realized he needed to shake up the presidential race, and that's what he did. But we are reminded, if we did not realize it before, that the three things not to expect from a McCain presidency are caution, prudence and a willingness to always put the nation's interests above his own.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/09/palin_pick_puts_politics_ahead.html

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 01:31 AM

Well, the Juneau people I know well all agree that this is a most interesting - I do believe that tonight they used the term 'amusing' - election. There were six of us there and they all know the governor better than I - three of them work for the state - they are of the belief that McCain hasn't a clue as to what he has signed onto. Palin, they say, is not only short-sighted but VERY stubborn. And LOUD.

Anyone care to make a little bet about the outcome of this? BEFORE the election? lol

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 02:04 AM

Here's an interesting perspective...


Why Palin? McCain v. Rove

"Why did John McCain select Sarah Palin as his running mate? The real reason is that he made an impulsive decision to prove his independence in reaction to pressure from Karl Rove, who was lobbying for Mitt Romney, as I explain in a forum on Firedoglake.com on my new book, The Strange Death of Republican America: Chronicles of a Collapsing Party.

I explain the inside story, according to sources close to the McCain campaign:

On Palin: My information is that Karl Rove wanted Romney and pushed him. McCain pushed back. He really wanted Lieberman. That was completely out of the question. Palin is the result. One element of the Palin nomination is McCain establishing himself apart from the Bush/Rove political operation, even as his campaign manager, Steve Schmidt, is one of their creatures. From the outside, it's often hard to figure out how vicious and divided the Republicans can be with each other.

I further explain that McCain rationalized his hasty choice as an appeal to the Republican base:

On McCain and the GOP base: Conventions are real tests of party unity, as we've just seen with the Democrats. McCain still has to pass the test through his own convention. Palin, among other things, enables him to bring along the social conservatives, or it ought to do so. Once McCain receives the nomination he is freer to move to the center. He is already campaigning more as a "maverick" and behind the scenes he is in some conflict with both Bush and Rove on policy and politics. If we had a sensate political press corps they might report on these abrasions.

McCain's emergence as the GOP nominee represents the fracturing of the conservative Republican dominance of the party, shattered as a consequence of George W. Bush's radicalism. I explain the story of how the Republicans came apart in "The Strange Death of Republican America." On the ruins, McCain must attempt to piece together the broken shards. In McCain's case, the political motive has combined with the temperamental. Thus, Sarah Palin."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sidney-blumenthal/why-palin-mccain-v-rove_b_122841.html

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 02:42 AM

"Here's the deal: Palin is the latest G.O.P. distraction. She's meant to shift attention away from the real issue of this campaign — the awful state of the nation after eight years of Republican rule. The Republicans are brilliant at distractions. Willie Horton was a distraction. The chatter about gays, guns and God has been a long-running distraction. And we all remember the Swift-boat campaign.

If you want a real issue, forget all of the above and revisit Monday's front page of The New York Times. Hundreds of families are being forced out of their homes each month in Louisville, Ky., because of mortgage foreclosures. With record numbers of poor and homeless students, the public schools are struggling.

The crisis has only been made worse by fiscal difficulties facing the schools. Higher energy and other costs, combined with a $43 million cut in state aid, have left the school system in a sorry state.

The reason this should be high on the presidential campaign agendas is that the problems in Louisville are widespread. As Sam Dillon of The Times reported: "As 50 million children return to classes across the nation, crippling increases in the price of fuel and food, coupled with the economic downturn, have left schools from California to Florida to Maine cutting costs."

Even as these districts are cutting back, wrote Mr. Dillon, "the number of poor and homeless children is rising."

That is the kind of substantive issue the Democrats should be focused on: how to educate America's children and improve the quality of their lives; how to bring health care to those going without; how to put America back to work.

To their credit, Senators Obama and Biden seem unwilling to jump aboard the bash-Ms.-Palin bandwagon. Both have been exceedingly mild in their comments about the Alaska governor." (NYT Ed)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 02:56 AM

Senior Analyst for Jazeera in Washington does not think it was a wise choice.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 05:43 AM

The British conservative political commentator and journalist John O'Sullivan (the founder and co-chairman of the New Atlantic Initiative, an international organization dedicated to reinvigorating and expanding the Atlantic community of democracies) takes rather the opposite point of view.

The party's just starting for John McCain

It's possible to find an 'alternative' viewpoint for anything but ---it's just someone's view.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: irishenglish
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 06:58 AM

heric- as I pointed out, there have been TWO men up to this election who went directly from the Senate to the Presidency. pdq claimed there was only one, Kennedy, forgetting of course Warren G Harding.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 07:16 AM

Word on the street is that McCain has folks back in Alaska "re-vetting" Palin... Man, I thought that was supposed to be done before hand???

Kinda plays nicely into Obama's charges that McCain has some major problems with judegment...

Oughtta be interesting to watch the Repub PR spinsters try to make chicken salad out of what is beginnin' to look like chicken sh*t...
I can hardly wait for that spin...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 07:31 AM

"they do have tapes of her doing the very thing..."---source, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 07:34 AM

Well it looks like wait we will. Now there is Hurricane Hanna, and right behind that Tropical Storm Ike. It would be kind of ironic, though, if Ike blows in and saves the Republican convention at the last minute.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 07:42 AM

"the very thing..."

Source--and direct quotes, please. Let's try to change the balance in political threads to more facts and fewer smears--even directed at politicians.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 07:47 AM

Kinda' reminded here of Tom Eagleton. McGovern could never recover from that unwise choice and Eagleton had a lot more going for him then Sarah Palin.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:00 AM

For that matter what executive experience does Joe Biden have?
DougR


Talking about pieces of work,Douggie, precisely what sort of exeperience did George W. Bush have besides running a baseball team into the ground?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:09 AM

Be fair Greg......He also ran several oil businesses into the ground as well!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:10 AM

Anchorage Daily News 19 Sept 2004:    "In early September 2003, Palen said, she called Clark (Alaska Chief of Staff) for help after staffers complained Ruedrich" (fellow Republican)" was conducting party business on the job".

She resigned from the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission in January 2004 partly in protest over what she called "lack of ethics" of fellow Republican members.

This is before the start of the investigation of Ted Stevens. Therefore it appears inaccurate to state that her concern with ethics resulted from fear of the FBI investigation of Stevens.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:16 AM

Also, Ebbie's point is particularly apt. Will Palen, as a loose cannon (amazingly similar to McCain himself) say enough weird things to ridicule the McCain ticket?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:17 AM

"Palin"

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:21 AM

Keeping in mind that all the "Bushisms" were not enough to sink the Bush ticket.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:25 AM

"Talking about pieces of work,Douggie, precisely what sort of exeperience did George W. Bush have besides running a baseball team into the ground?"


               The Governor of Texas, maybe?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 09:13 AM

I think it was a piss poor choice, so much so that It makes me question if McCain is any more fit to lead than Oh Bummer.

I really don't care who gets elected anymore. It's like a choice between McDonald's or Wendy's Both are so mediocre.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 09:21 AM

Washington Post:

A Typical Middle-Class Struggle

On the Palin situation: It immediately struck me that Sarah Palin was chosen as a candidate who understands middle-class family struggles, and this is a pretty typical one. On the scale of family secrets, a pregnant teen marrying her boyfriend is hardly shocking. It is personally wrenching for all involved. But, if properly handled by caring parents, it can sometimes result in the arrival of new life and a new family. And a new life is always a good and glorious thing, whatever the circumstances of his or her birth.

What does all this say about Palin herself? That she is a hypocrite? Absurd. She seems to have acted in a manner entirely consistent with her religious beliefs. (If she had urged her daughter to get an abortion, that would be hypocrisy.) That Palin is somehow unqualified for office because she couldn't "control" her own family? This is a foolish, cartoon version of Victorianism.

There are only two things that would concern me. If Palin had not informed the McCain campaign about this situation before her selection, it would mean she has poor judgment. But the McCain campaign has said it was informed. It would also disturb me if Palin had not fully discussed her decision to run for vice president with her pregnant daughter, who will now be exposed to a lot of vicious ridicule. In light of this family struggle, I hope Palin's decision to join the Republican ticket was a family decision.

Those who believe that a family situation of this sort will alienate or anger evangelicals have never actually met an evangelical. Just listen to James Dobson's Focus on the Family broadcast, or read one of his books. Responding to his evangelical listeners and readers, he addresses every imaginable family challenge, from adultery to child sexual abuse to bedwetting. Evangelical Christianity (in most modern forms) is not about the achievement of perfection, it is about the acceptance of forgiveness and healing. Nearly every evangelical knows and respects someone who has dealt with this kind of situation with dignity and with God's constant help.

And I can't imagine why Palin's family situation would alienate middle-ground women voters either. Is it really the expectation of modern women that their leaders and role models have perfect, perpetually cheerful families?

All this said, I still feel terrible for the Palins and their daughter (and the poor guy she intends to marry). The slimiest elements of the Internet culture will be after them. But Americans, I believe and trust, are more decent than this vileness.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 10:15 AM

I concur the pg shtick will win some evangelicals; but not the Abstinence Makes the Heart Grow Fonder crowd.

On the whole Palin's selection was a risky, hail Mary tactic. It gave the finger to the Karl Rove machine, which is good.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 10:19 AM

"The Governor of Texas, maybe?"

Karl Rove was governor of Texas... Bush merely kept the chair warm. The question can be simply removed one step...did Bush have any experience that qualified him to govern a state?


Regarding the Palin's daughter: It is sad that these days EVERYTHING seems to be grist for the mill. I think is is partially that 27 pundits, having been hired to talk incessantly, need an infinite amount of things to talk about!
It was beyond irony last night to hear the news director of MSNBC say.. 'Next, we'll examine whether Gov. Palin's daughter's pregnancy will affect the race...or should we even be TALKING about this?'

They have to have a discussion on the air over whether they SHOULD be discussing it on the air?

There are legitimate issues about whether Palin is qualified and whether she has relevant ethical problems...her daughter's situation is NOT relevant.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: olddude
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 10:29 AM

Just read on the web news. I guess she was arrested 22 years ago for drunk driving .. it just keeps getting better doesn't it

Palin News

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: olddude
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 10:32 AM

Sorry it was her husband I stand corrected

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: SINSULL
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 10:33 AM

Another total non-issue distracting the gullible American public from the serious ones. i can not wait for this election to be over...

By the way, I am genuinely pissed that I was awakened on a Sunday morning by a pair of Baptists. Baptists! I finally got rid of the JWs and now Baptists! I am tempted tog ovisit them at about 3Am on a Wednesday to discuss Atheism.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 10:37 AM

'Todd Palin was arrested 22 years ago on a drunken-driving charge.'

This is really scraping the barrel!

Hilary Rosen, a Democratic commentator, said the issue is whether Palin would try to impose her personal choices.
Rosen said Democrats should "not be cowed" from including Palin's family life in the political discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 10:50 AM

Bill,

Of course, Bush was qualified to be president... Hey, he'd stuck the taxpayers of Arlington, Texas for $164M, for which they are still payin'... What better expeerience than rippin' off taxpayers does the job require???

*g*

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 10:51 AM

You are right, Bobert. The vetting left a lot to be discovered: NYTs.

Whether her daughter should be a subject of discussion or not, their hypocrisy opens it up, imo:

Palin herself said she opposes funding sexual-education programs in Alaska.

"The explicit sex-ed programs will not find my support," she wrote in a 2006 questionnaire distributed among gubernatorial candidates.

McCain's position on contraceptives and teen pregnancy issues has been difficult to judge on the campaign trail, as he appears uncomfortable discussing such topics. Reporters asked the presumptive GOP presidential nominee in November 2007 whether he supported grants for sex education in the United States, whether such programs should include directions for using contraceptives and whether he supports President Bush's policy of promoting abstinence.

"Ahhh, I think I support the president's policy," McCain said.

When reporters pressed McCain whether the government should provide contraceptives or counseling on contraceptives, he replied, "You've stumped me." McCain said later that he was sure he opposed government spending on contraceptives.

And this from the prospective father:

On a MySpace page subsequently taken down, Johnston boasts, 'I'm a f - - -in' redneck' who likes to snowboard and ride dirt bikes. 'But I live to play hockey. I like to go camping and hang out with the boys, do some fishing, shoot some s- - - and just f - - -in' chillin' I guess.' 'Ya f - - - with me I'll kick [your] ass,' he added. He also claims to be 'in a relationship,' but states, 'I don't want kids.'"

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 10:52 AM

MOOSE HUNT

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 10:52 AM

"Talking about pieces of work,Douggie, precisely what sort of exeperience did George W. Bush have besides running a baseball team into the ground?"


GregF,

For your information.....The Rangers have always sucked. Don't blame it on George.



Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 11:02 AM

the prospective father is yet to mature into a full fledged conservative but his heart is in the far right spot.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 11:11 AM

Maybe it's not too late to save him!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 11:12 AM

I have a shiny quarter that says Palin will NOT be on the ticket. They have a day or two to change their minds.

Sure..I could lose my quarter, but wow...what a dilemma the Republicans have now - continue with a candidate that seems a bit awkward, or look foolish having to do an "Eagleton" and replace her....

Does the name Harriet Meiers ring any bells? ...vetting seems to be an art form the Republicans need to polish.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 11:33 AM

"They have staffs" says Riginslinger

Members of Congress have staffs, too.
You are grasping at straws to give her credibility.
It's not working.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 11:40 AM

As to the discussion of teen-age pregnacy, I also feel it is a family decision, not a public nor political one.

Hopefully, the young girl had the family support to make her decision unhampered by the public and political spotlight.


Our family went through a similar situation and we wisely (for us) supported our daughter to deliver a healthy child and not marry at this time.

When our daughter broke the news to us she asked our guidance if she should to marry the father to "save personal and family embarassment, and possible future embarassment for the child (born out of wedlock)."

Our advice was that these reasons alone were not sufficient factors on whether she should marry. We suggested that this decision should be made after the birth, when there was less pressure on the future young father and mother. She followed our advice and after two years, did marry the father. I feel this was a wise choice for our family. We do live in times where there is greater public understanding and acceptance of yhese "situations".

I welcome hearing of similar experiences or perspectives to share on this topic, regardless of the choice made.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 11:49 AM

I was a teen mother when abortions and contraceptives for under 18 were illegal. It was my desire, at the time (what did I know?!) and just expected, that we would marry. I was 16 and he was 19. It lasted five years and two kids. It was ugly, hard, abusive, and no I did not come from an abusive background, but he did, and not something I would wish on any child. I do NOT regret for one moment the beautiful children I have from that, but they, too,could have started out with much safer, dependable lives had I not been married to their father, imo.

The Palins are idiots, imo, for sanctioning the marriage of these two kids, esp. in light of what the boy had written online. Best that she have the baby, if she wants, and they learn to be parents without the added stress/baggage of teen marriage AND the national spotlight on them. That spotlight will be on them no matter what, thanks to McCain and her mom.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 11:50 AM

The family pregnancy is none of anyone's business, a stress for the young woman, the under-qualified young man, and the young woman's mother and father. It is a domestic scene with no bearing on the commons and its concerns.

EXCEPT for those people who believe they have a right to meddle and muck about with individual moral codes and choices on vacuous and immaterial grounds. For them, the fact if an unwed pregnancy is "supposed to be" a sure sign of a lack of moral fiber and proper upbringing, and they will use this stilted, frozen-in-place style of thought to therefore have a lot of concern about Palin fille.

Oddly enough, most folks who have such rigid and moralizing outlooks are those who view themselves as firmly to the right of Reagan.
They make very poor leaders, IMHO--tending toward authoritarianism and spending too much time worrying about whether anyone is leaking any passion or enjoyment into the room.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 11:50 AM

'Welcome to In Entertainment where you will find the latest up-to-date gossip on the entertainment scene.'

top story?
'Levi Johnston MySpace page describes Bristol Palin baby father'

Says it all really - sigh!

Whatever happened to political discourse - is this what the election of a president has sunk to?

Even Spoof headlibes can't compete with this sick reality

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: olddude
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:00 PM

It hasn't hit the bottom of the barrel, it actually below the barrel and yes that is what it has sunk too ... it will get worse before it gets better. That is why we get stuck with crap leaders all the time. The best people do not want to put up with this stuff on either side of the fence. I am pleased that there a few like Obama that actually want to make a difference IMO for what it is worth

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:01 PM

"I recently found out some facts about this Alaskan governor and mayor of a small town that should send chills up anyone with common sense, but there are still Republicans out there with a dimly lit bulb. Here are the facts:

1) She was elected Alaska's governor a little over a year and a half ago. Her previous office was mayor of Wasilla, a small town outside Anchorage. She has no foreign policy experience. (not even out of Alaska)

2) Palin is strongly anti-choice, opposing abortion even in the case of rape or incest. (tell that to the thousands of raped girls every month)

3) She supported right-wing extremist Pat Buchanan for president in 2000. (She sounds scarier)

4) Palin thinks creationism should be taught in public schools.(How about the Mayan belief, too that the world will end in 2012?)

She's doesn't think humans are the cause of climate change. (Yeah, it's the aliens)

She's solidly in line with John McCain's "Big Oil first" energy policy. She's pushed hard for more oil drilling and says renewables won't be ready for years. She also sued the Bush administration for listing polar bears as an endangered species—she was worried it would interfere with more oil drilling in Alaska. (Way out of touch of reality when over 95% of the "experts" disagree with this fantasy)

How closely did John McCain vet this choice? He met Sarah Palin once at a meeting. They spoke a second time, last Sunday, when he called her about being vice-president. Then he offered her the position. (Maybe he ran an ad in Craigs list)

.."

(LA TImes letter-writer)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:04 PM

like I said.....

'The story above is a satire or parody. It is entirely fictitious.'

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:11 PM

I have in fact been looking for Palin photos of all kinds and what I found is this...

With each passing day, photos are vanishing on the web.

By today there are only the 6 stock photos remaing.

No more pictures of Palin shooting guns.

Today I did find a photo of her daughter aiming a hand gun.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:28 PM

Wired Magazine's Brandon Keim's article: McCain's VP Wants Creationism Taught in School stated


'Republican vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin wants creationism taught in science classes.

In a 2006 gubernatorial debate, the soon-to-be governor of Alaska trotted out the usual creationist education canard: "Teach both. You know, don't be afraid of education. Healthy debate is so important, and it's so valuable in our schools. I am a proponent of teaching both."'

An opponent of creationism however comments on line

'This is all true as far as it goes, but it's a bit dishonest of Keim not to quote the rest of Palin's statements in the article he linked: 'Creation science' enters the race.

In an interview Thursday, Palin said she meant only to say that discussion of alternative views should be allowed to arise in Alaska classrooms:

"I don't think there should be a prohibition against debate if it comes up in class. It doesn't have to be part of the curriculum."

She added that, if elected, she would not push the state Board of Education to add such creation-based alternatives to the state's required curriculum.

Members of the state school board, which sets minimum requirements, are appointed by the governor and confirmed by the Legislature.

"I won't have religion as a litmus test, or anybody's personal opinion on evolution or creationism," Palin said.'

.....to quote just the first part of her statements on creationism and ignore the second is misleading; because in the clarification she's describing a position that doesn't cause me (a staunch anti-creationist) any discomfort.'

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:32 PM

Well said, Emma. It does no-one any good to twist things to make them seem worse than they are! And I speak as one who has occasionaly done so.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:39 PM

btw I am totally oppoaed to Sarah Palin's views on abortion, even in the case of rape or incest, as I respect a woman's right to choose (including the right to raise a child with Down's Syndrome)

However just trotting out ridiculous (not to mention dishonest) comments like some that have posted just distracts from very real concerns like this.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:39 PM

Creationism
Intelligent Design
Evolution

All are theories.
None have been proven.


Why not teach all theories?

You are for choice, after all, aren't you?

Be consistent.

Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:40 PM

It's hard to imagine why everybody is down on Pat Buchanan. He was the only rational voice on immigration in the 2000 election.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:47 PM

Hub:

A scientific theory is a very different thing than a vacuous, superstitious one.

Calling them all "theories" in the same breath is extremely misleading, disingenuous and intentionally, or not, an alteration of the facts that evolution is supported by a hundred years of hard physical evidence, ranging from the fossil record to genetic studies to actual experimental demonstration of the evolutionary principles in the lab.

No such body of evidence supports the other two models you mention, which is why they are deemed non-scientific. They are speculations, just like the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:48 PM

I hope you are wrong, Bill... I'd love to have Ms. Palin on the Repub ticket almost as much as I'd like to write the Obama ad that goes something like this:

Picture and text: Palin railing against lobbiests and earmarks (10 seconds) then...

*The Voice* (female): "As Mayor of Wasilla, Alaska, Ms. Palin and her lobbiest friends who were well connected to indicted Ted Stevens bilked the US Treasury out of $27M in earmarks. That amounts to over $4000 for every man, woman and child. That's not straight talk. That's double talk."

Please, Repubs... Please keep Palin... Please!!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:55 PM

Picking Palin is a Rove set-up. She is a figurehead for the religious "right" and an attempt to appeal to the emotions of women as a reaction to Hillary. The real issue that she will
try to foist on the debate is "The right to choose". This election will be about Roe v. Wade.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:56 PM

Thank you Amos for trying to spin the argument with your big words and total disregard for anything other than to what you subscribe to.

The one thing that gets me though on the whole Obama vs Palin story is that Obama is running for president while she is vp choice. Why are you guys trying to discredit a vp choice while trying to defend your presidential choice.

Does she really create that much of a threat to you?

What about the historical precendence being set for this election, Amos?

History will be made here.
You vigorously spouted your pride in that whenever Obama accepted the nomination. What about now?
You can still be proud and not support someone at the same time.

Either the first black president or the first female vp will be elected to office.

Something definitely needs to be said about that.


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: irishenglish
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:59 PM

Susu's Hubby-Creationism and Intelligent Design are faith based theories. They cannot be taught solely of themselves in public schools. Evolution can be. You want to teach them, do so in private school or Sunday school. Intelligent Design has been all but debunked anyway in the Kitzmiller vs. Dover School District case anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 01:00 PM

Hub:

I am very proud that, for the second time in our history, a woman has been selected to run for V.P.

What I said up thread about evolution is not ":just my view of things" but a summary of facts. There are things called facts, and they are different than opinions and wishful thinking, and also different than speculations.

"God made the world" is a speculation. "There is a large collection of evidence in support of the principle of evolution and natural selection" is a fact.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 01:00 PM

The suggestion thar working as Vice President will provide adequate "executive experience" is completely irrelevant.   A vice-president needs to be able to take on the role of president on day one.

The point is, it is always perfectly possible that by the time the inauguration comes around the person elected president might no longer even be alive.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 01:01 PM

Teddy Roosevelt: "I can be President of the United States, or I can control [my daughter]. I cannot possibly do both."

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 01:06 PM

I have to make a correction to my previous post. It wasn't Palin herself, it was her administration and her husband who made the calls, one of which is on tape...

http://www.adn.com/monegan/story/492964.html?loc=interstitialskip

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 01:13 PM

Bush ran a baseball team, several oil businesses, and the state of Texas into the ground. That's a lot of experience.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 01:24 PM

"Creationism
Intelligent Design
Evolution

All are theories.
None have been proven."

*tsk*... evolution has been documented and studied in creatures which reproduce quickly. Evidence for it has been documented in Anthropology and Palentology...etc... by inferring that more complex organisms evolve just as the simpler ones do. Calling this 'just' theories shows a lack of comprehension of what 'theory' and 'proof' mean and what actually constitutes evidence.



back to the topic: Palin's comprehension of these issues seems to be about the same as Hubby's.... she is now being fed talking points and such to blunt and 'explain' her extreme views. I doubt it will work.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: mg
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 01:26 PM

Again, I do not think she should be the VP. Teenagers get pregnant all the time. If I had raised daughters or sons, I would hopefully have raised them to be able to raise a baby by the age of 17 or 18 and to earn some sort of living. Pregnancy is the default of young people. There have to be all sorts of obstacles put in their way in order to have a chance for it not to happen. A 17 year old in a healthy realtionship getting pregnant is nature's preferred mode. A 13 or 14 year old is a tragedy and a total failure of parental supervision. I would never force a marriage at that age or ever, but I would surely encourage it if the teens were not abusive to each other and both wanted to. How old were people even in my generation when they got married? 17 or 18 or the minute they graduated from high school was very common. How old was your Sicilian grandmother?

We infantilize young people way too much, extend adolescence way too long. She will cope, probably just fine, unless there is abuse involved, in which case get the abusing party out of the picture. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 01:32 PM

The problem with teaching creationism in the public schools is that it's the government promoting specific religions. In order to not be promoting specific religions, the schools would need to also teach all of the other creation myths of all of the other religions. Which would be impossible to do for lack of sufficient time.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 01:33 PM

Did Adam and Eve make all them fossils of dinosaurs??? Geeze, that must have been alot of work... Wonder when it was that they found time to eat the forbidden fruit???

BTW, wonder if we need a Constitutional ammendment banning the teaching of evolution???

A President Palin would favor such, I'm sure, seein' as she believes in creationism...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 01:40 PM

"Either the first black president or the first female vp will be elected to office.

Something definitely needs to be said about that."

I agree, except there is one problem - her name has not been put into nomination and voted on by her party, and she has not accepted. Let's see how things play out in the next few days.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 01:55 PM

'A President Palin would favor such, I'm sure, seein' as she believes in creationism...'

and she is a MILF to boot too!
only in America.!
'We all accept a black man to lead us if the only other choice is a woman'

You folks who protest (as indeed you should) against the spreading of lies about Obama's religion etc should really take a closer look at the lies posted here by his supporters; it does your 'cause' no good IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 02:06 PM

And if nominated, she is still running second to Ferraro.


But this is a secondary issue to the larger problem of a 73-year old with known melanoma and heart conditions entering the most stressful job in the world with a pinup girl as backup.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 02:06 PM

from the New York Times:

"Among other less attention-grabbing news of the day: it was learned that Ms. Palin now has a private lawyer in a legislative ethics investigation in Alaska into whether she abused her power in dismissing the state's public safety commissioner; that she was a member for two years in the 1990s of the Alaska Independence Party, which has at times sought a vote on whether the state should secede; and that Mr. Palin was arrested 22 years ago on a drunken-driving charge.

Aides to Mr. McCain said they had a team on the ground in Alaska now to look more thoroughly into Ms. Palin's background. A Republican with ties to the campaign said the team assigned to vet Ms. Palin in Alaska had not arrived there until Thursday, a day before Mr. McCain stunned the political world with his vice-presidential choice. The campaign was still calling Republican operatives as late as Sunday night asking them to go to Alaska to deal with the unexpected candidacy of Ms. Palin."

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 02:18 PM

Emma thanks for the Real Time link.
That epsiode used two of my bits.

You are right                                     wing
I should not condemn Palin                      only her issues
I will study Creationism                            for laughs
and support our war                               on ignorance.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 02:45 PM

The rasty and riotous and often irresponsible Daily News carries the following from Bloomberg:

"BLOOMBERG NEWS

Tuesday, September 2nd 2008, 1:21 PM
Pooley/Getty

The odds are not in favor of John McCain keeping Sarah Palin on his ticket, according to bettors. The smart money thinks there's a better chance Tuesday than Monday that John McCain will dump Sarah Palin as his running mate.

Before the Republican senator's presidential campaign disclosed the pregnancy of Palin's 17-year-old daughter, bookmakers in Britain and Ireland were offering 20-1 odds or higher on a bet that she would be forced off the ticket, meaning a 1 pound ($1.78) bet would pay 20 pounds. Now that same bet will pay no more than 8 pounds.

"While it is rare that a VP candidate gets dropped, it's not completely impossible," said Ken Robertson, political
betting analyst at Paddy Power Plc, a Dublin-based gambling company. "Lots of our punters are betting 'Shocking' Sarah's
days are numbered," he added, using a nickname he came up with for the first-term Alaska governor.

   The odds, based on wagers made online with Paddy Power and William Hill Plc and in their betting shops, also suggest
that McCain is less likely to win the White House because of his vice-presidential running-mate choice, announced Aug. 29.

Both gambling houses, along with rival Ladbrokes Plc, place Democrat Barack Obama, 47, as the favorite to triumph in the
contest.

"Ever since he appointed her, people have stopped betting on McCain," said David Williams of Ladbrokes in London. "He
went down like a sack of potatoes as far as the punters are concerned."
...
"

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 02:46 PM

BillDarlin'...already posted somewhere by me.:-) But, it does bear repeating!

Thanks for the video link. Maher commenting on her having five kids, "Doesn't anyone in that party understand the concept of 'pull out?'"

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 02:56 PM

"...The only thing green about Sarah Palin is her lack of experience. She has consistently supported drilling in ANWR, use of coal-burning power plants (as I write this, a new coal plant is being built in her home town of Wasilla), strip mining, and almost anything else that will unnecessarily exploit the diminishing resources of Alaska and destroy its environment.

Prior to her one year as governor of Alaska, she was mayor of Wasilla, a small red neck town outside Anchorage.The average maximum education level of parents of junior high school kids in Wasilla is 10th grade.

Unfortunately, I have to go to Wasilla every week to get groceries and other supplies, so I have continual contact with the people who put Palin in office in the first place. I know what I'm t alking about.

These people don't have a concept of the world around them or of the
serious issues facing the US. Furthermore, they don't care. So long as they can go out and hunt their moose every fall, kill wolves and bears and drive their snow mobiles and ATVs through every corner of the wilderness, they're happy. I wish I were exaggerating.
..."

You know what's really wonderful? That a redneck pixie from an outback watering hole can someday think of going all the way to Washington.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Barry Finn
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 03:00 PM

"As to the discussion of teen-age pregnacy, I also feel it is a family decision, not a public nor political one."

As far as I'm concerned it's a public debate when the mother is running as the VP & she raises her daughter the same way she'd raise the children of the state of Alaska which would carry over the the way she'd sway the nation if she gets into office.
She doesn't see the need for sex education within her family fine but education for the rest of the race helps to bring the numbers of unwanted pregnacies down. It is a problem & refusing to push education weither it be on reproductive sciences, climate & earth sciences, eviormental sciences is what we've been sorely lacking for the last 8 yrs, abstaining is not education, that's no more than an absurd request. She failed awfully as a Mayor to push education why would she do any better with the future of our nation's children?

She wants to push creationism, let her do it in the faith based schools where each faith can deceid on which theory to teach based on their different beliefs in the different theories, (would they teach it if it was their own money & not ours they were spending?). Who's gonna teach the theories believed by the those of the 1st nations, they recieve federal funds for education don't they? A bit of a catch 22 there, when religions aren't taught in public schools if the recieve federal, state or other public funding.

The issue of feuding with the Fed's over Bears may not loom largely over many heads but the fedreal protection of a spiecies, IMHO, is sacred these days, one of the few things they could be doing better but it is also one of the fews things they are doing right & one should have a pretty air-tight cause & reason to turnaround that policy. I haven't heard her reasoning but I sure hope it's better than the NRA wants it's hunters to have more targets to shoot & mostly I hope it's not a ploy to open up the ranges for the drilling of ANWR. Maybe by Nov will have an answer. Our is it only the polor bears she wants to eradicate?

I do pray & hope she stays on the ticket though. McCain couldn't have made a poorer choice & had he picked better, even Rice would've been better thought the thought of her getting in rattles my bones, he'd have had a better shot & I'd rather see him go down in flames,,,,,again.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 03:02 PM

That's a little bit of a stereotype, though. My sister and Ebbie and KT and others live in Alaska and are not redneck etc. I am NOT sticking up for Palin, but even all rednecks aren't bad, such as my dad, so...I think it's best to keep the paintbrush closer to Palin and not use it so broadly.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 03:02 PM

Amos:


"That a redneck pixie from an outback watering hole can..."


Should I find an equivalent comment top make about Obama? You are well on your way to crossing the line...

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 03:09 PM

So, if he does drop Palin, would he have to drop her this week before the official nominating??? Or could she be nominated and then he drop her???

The betters kinda have me confused with their betting on whether he would drop her on Monday or Tuesday when the article is plainly published today... That would rule out Monday so I reckon they have to be talkin' about next Monday or Tuesday... That don't make no sense... Heym if I'm McCain and I realize that I've made a mistake I want her out now!!! Not two hours or two days or next week but...

...NOW!!!

As in don't let the door hit ya' on the way out...

Regardless, if this does occur or doesn't, me thinks that John has pooped in his hat, put it on and pulled it down over his ears...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Greg B
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 03:14 PM

What a disaster area---

She's wrong about teaching religious theories in public school
biology classes.

She's wrong about teaching only abstinence for contraception in
sex education--- and we can see in her own family how well it works.
And in spite of people dancing around the kids' plight, so long as
Mom is pushing a policy destined to fail, it's fair to note how
it has failed in her own back yard.

And I don't buy that we are infantalizing 17-year-olds who are
dumb enough to decide to marry in this day and age. In decades
gone by, they'd be done with their education and well into half
of their expected life-span. Now, a 17-year-old isn't through
high-school, much less the college education which is the norm
for individuals expecting to make a decent living to raise a
family. In essence, they're setting themselves up for poverty,
or for undue dependence on family, either of which is the kiss of
death for a long-lasting marital union. Yes, some make it. But
most end up like 'Brenda and Eddie.'

Nor do I find anything particularly noble about a 44-year-old
woman with three children already carrying to term a Downs
baby. I'm not going to advocate for any particular alternative,
but I can think of several that would perhaps have been better.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Barry Finn
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 03:15 PM

Amos, McCain is to stubbon to face he's made a MissTake with Flame, she'll stay, thank (I'm not religious) God.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 03:16 PM

The characterization of Palin as redneck was not mine, originally; I borrowed it from a native who was quoted extensively near the beginning of this thread.

However I agree it was a bit over the line to re-use it.

Almost as over the top as the assertions that she has a "green record" and an "ethics record" when she promotes drilling in wild-life reserves, hunting from helicopters, and keeping polar bears off the endangered species list despite the statistics of their shrinking habitats.

But you're right--I should not engage in the same mind-twisting alterations as those whom I criticize do. So I withdraw the redneck descriptor; and the pixie descriptor, too. So my sentence now becomes, "You know what's really wonderful? That a redneck pixie *&^*&% xxx&*&^$%# from an outback watering hole small town can someday think of going all the way to Washington."
A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 03:20 PM

"During her first speech after being named as McCain's surprise pick as a running mate, Palin said she had told Congress "'thanks but no thanks' on that bridge to nowhere."

In the city Ketchikan, the planned site of the so-called "Bridge to Nowhere," political leaders of both parties said the claim was false and a betrayal of their community, because she had supported the bridge and the earmark for it secured by Alaska's Congressional delegation during her run for governor.

The bridge, a span from the city to Gravina Island, home to only a few dozen people, secured a $223 million earmark in 2005. The pricey designation raised a furor and critics, including McCain, used the bridge as an example of wasteful federal spending on politicians' pet projects.

When she was running for governor in 2006, Palin said she was insulted by the term "bridge to nowhere," according to Ketchikan Mayor Bob Weinstein, a Democrat, and Mike Elerding, a Republican who was Palin's campaign coordinator in the southeast Alaska city.

"People are learning that she pandered to us by saying, I'm for this' ... and then when she found it was politically advantageous for her nationally, abruptly she starts using the very term that she said was insulting," Weinstein said.

..." (Reuters)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: mg
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 03:22 PM

Much better. I don't understand why the use of the term redneck is socially accepted in polite society. Also, about the First Nations people..is her husband not partially at least one? mg

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Wesley S
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 03:35 PM

MG - Here in the south many people use the term redneck with pride - esp since rednecks get their neck red from working in the sun. It means they are working class folks.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 03:38 PM

"rednecks get their neck red from working in the sun. It means they are working class folks. "



NO WONDER Amos and other Democrats use it as an insult!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 03:49 PM

Oops my weak memory was triggered and I see I was the one to use the term "red county rednecks." I think I kind of knew it was supposed to be a purged term from my lexicon. Sorry.

But I wasn't applying it to her, and I still think this selection clinches it. There are no more issues to discuss. My best guess is still that this appointment was forced upon McCain by red county . . . . . whatever you want to call them – but I am sick of them. This selection tells me that "they" are still in charge, and they do not want my middle of the road vote – they are going forward without us. Call them neocons, hayseeds, I don't have a very nice term in mind for them. Whomever it was who unapologetically gave us Guantanamo and trillion dollar wars of choice.

McCain has far higher approval ratings than does the Republican party. Apparently he can not bend it to his will.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 03:55 PM

According to Palin, God is on her side to get her policies through:
"I think God's will has to be done in unifying people and companies to get that gas line built, so pray for that," she said.
And she also believes it was God's plan that we go to war in Iraq. Gee, she's just like W Bush, isn't she?

From this link st:

click here
Speaking before the Pentecostal church, Palin painted the current war in Iraq as a messianic affair in which the United States could act out the will of the Lord.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 04:05 PM

Amos said:

"The smart money thinks there's a better chance Tuesday than Monday that John McCain will dump Sarah Palin as his running mate."

Was *I* not first with my 25¢ bet? Hmmm? Them Irish bookmakers are slow!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 04:14 PM

I am not going to pray for that natural gas pipeline to get built. Nope. Nope.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 04:26 PM

You were, Bill, indeed you were. But to be fair I didn't say that myself, but was quoting someone more knowledgeable about wild political bookmaking than I.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 04:30 PM

Governor Sarah Palin made history on Dec. 4, 2006, when she took office. As the 11th governor of Alaska, she is the first woman to hold the office.

She is the also the mother of 5 children and yet is is seemingly ok to contemptuously describe her as a 'pinup girl'

Now I don't agree with most (sorry, read ANY) of her policies but I think folks it is time you found a New Agenda as it is obvious (on this side of the pond) that sexism is at least as big a problem as racism in your great country.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 04:33 PM

Woody Guthrie didn't see anything shamesful in the term redneck when he sang about the Ludlow Massacre:

The soldiers jumped us in the wire fence corner;
They did not know that we had these guns.
And the red-necked miners mowed down these troopers,
You should have seen those poor boys run.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 04:36 PM

Well, Emma B, I did not suggest to her that she enter beauty contests at a tender age. Neither did anyone else here. Yet she did so, presumably on her own initiative, to reach or something she deemed important to herself--winning acclaim for her shapely feminine figure and general pulchritude. Or maybe, to get the hell out of a one-horse town, I dunno.

In my book, that is what a pinup girl does. If Bobert did the same thing, he'd be a pinup girl too.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: irishenglish
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 04:36 PM

If, as the McCain camp is now saying, Palin was thoroughly vetted, why did they not put out a press statement when she was at the VP announcement rally Friday? I know they may not have WANTED some of this to come out, but I'm sure they expected word was going to get out at some point. Therefore, a brief press statement acknowledging her daughter, her husband's DWI, and what ever else there may be, could have been right there, out in the open. You can accuse the press of digging and trying to find anything (and in my opinion, a 22 year old DWI is stretching it), but don't blame them when they do find things that are noteworthy and then blame it on somebody else when you could have stopped it beforehand.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 04:40 PM

I would add that she is not a MILF, in my book.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 04:44 PM

Amos...you are showing WAY too much knowledge of acronyms

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 04:46 PM

OH...sorry--but how did you know?



A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 04:52 PM

FROM CNN's Jack Cafferty:

There's a growing sense that John McCain may not have done all his homework before making his V.P. pick.

Alaska Governor Sarah Palin is now grabbing headlines for all the wrong reasons: her 17-year-old unmarried daughter is pregnant.Palin has hired a private lawyer in the trooper probe ethics investigation. She was for the bridge to nowhere before she was against it. Palin appeared at a convention of the Alaska Independence Party — which tried to get votes on whether the state should secede from the union. Her husband was arrested 22 years ago on a DUI. And, although Palin is now railing against earmarks, she got hundreds of millions of dollars in federal funding for local projects as both governor and as mayor of Wasilla.

There's more. What about her foreign policy credentials? CNN's Campbell Brown repeatedly asked McCain spokesman Tucker Bounds last night why Palin is ready to be commander-in-chief, what qualifications she has, and to name one foreign policy decision Palin has made – Campbell never got an answer. It's reported that Palin may have only traveled overseas once, last year to Germany and Kuwait.

This has all led many to wonder how thorough of a vetting the Alaska governor got. McCain only met with Palin once and had one phone conversation with her before offering her the job. It raises serious questions about the kind of judgment McCain would use as president to make other big decisions.

Here's my question to you: Was Governor Sarah Palin properly vetted before being named John McCain's V.P.?

(COmments:

Tom from Huntington, New York writes:
The operative word here is properly. It is obvious that they gave her a quick once over and McCain decided she was it. There will be more information forthcoming about Gov. Palin. I think that by this time next week she will step down due to "family considerations".

Jennifer writes:
McCain's decision to put Palin on the ticket shows that he makes decisions based on what's good for him (without thinking or checking) and not good for the country. How could he put someone like that one melanoma away from the presidency? He went with his gut? That makes sense, because it surely wasn't a decision made with his brain.

Lyn from Petoskey, Michigan writes:
Let's see: he met her for a full fifteen minutes, no one in Alaska can remember being approached during the "process", her 17-year-old daughter is pregnant and she's under investigation for improperly using gubernatorial power? YA THINK?

Rick from Simi Valley, California writes:
Sarah Palin is looking more and more like one of those people you see on the Jerry Springer Show. I can't wait to see what future revelations come out regarding Palin and her past.

Wendy from North Carolina writes:
Good grief, I am more qualified to be V.P. if this is McCain's version of vetting! If you really want to get the Palin picture, have her debate Hillary! Now that would be fun to watch.

Mary from Baltimore writes:
If this is the judgment he used in selecting a vice president, good luck to all of us if he gets to the White House. An elderly gentleman with a history of a serious medical problem has chosen an inexperienced person from a remote village and state to be his back-up and perhaps president of the country. This is Katrina for the rest of us.

Kevin from Massachusetts writes:
I believe her name was picked from a hat. Does that count as vetted?)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 05:02 PM

Well, I'm glad that so far, Mudcatters have listened to Barack Obama and have not made an issue of Palin's daughter's pregancy, or of her husband's 22-year-old drunk driving arrest (he's age 44 now - do the math).

I suppose the firing of the public safety chief could be an issue if it involved pressure to fire the governor's sister's ex-husband, but there is no proof of any misconduct yet.

I hate it when the debate hangs on all the really stupid stuff. I hope it doesn't stoop to that here.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 05:15 PM

http://www.alternet.org/module/printversion/97139

George Lakoff puts it succinctly.

"What Democrats have shied away from is a frontal attack on radical conservatism itself as an un-American and harmful ideology. I think Obama is right when he says that America is based on people caring about each other and working together for a better future-empathy, responsibility (both personal and social), and aspiration. These lead to a concept of government based on protection (environmental, consumer, worker, health care, and retirement protection) and empowerment (through infrastructure, public education, the banking system, the stock market, and the courts). Nobody can achieve the American Dream or live an American lifestyle without protection and empowerment by the government. The alternative, as Obama said in his nomination speech, is being on your own, with no one caring for anybody else, with force as a first resort in foreign affairs, with threatened civil liberties and a right-wing government making your most important decisions for you. That is not what American democracy has ever been about."

Palin represents all that is reprehensible about the right-wing of the US. To say that she
would be any kind of worthwhile VP is entirely specious and blind. She would destroy democracy
as we have come to know it. Ben Franklin warned us that it's a great system of government if we can keep it.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 05:23 PM

"Ben Franklin warned us that it's a great system of government if we can keep it."


                   Better not lose it with Barack Obama!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 05:25 PM

"Better not lose it with Barack Obama! "

We will only get it back with Barack.   Our system of government has been skewered by the regime that has been in charge for the past 8 years. The end is near!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Sorcha
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 05:41 PM

All you seemingly racist, sexist, ageist people are making me tired. I don't suppose you could just leave it, eh?

10 pages now....isn't that enough?

So, a LOT of people think McCain made a 'poor choice'. How about wait and see what happens next?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: irishenglish
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 06:01 PM

I dunno Sorcha. I don't consider myself any of those things. Lots of threads have gone on here far longer. If the consequences of McCain's possible (see, I used a qualifier) poor choice grow day by day, why should we leave it?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 06:04 PM

Racism and sexism have very specific meanings. Asking a question regarding the qualifications of the VP candidate, just as long as they are not based on either of those two things does not qualify.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 06:05 PM

I don't know if an old dui should be an issue. It was one of the things she accused her brother in law of doing. I saw that man she fired say so, I don't have a problem with the press mentioning any criminal record she or her husband might have but hopefully such things are all in the past.

They stands she takes seem to open the door for criticism or at least examination. She has apparently spoken against comprehensive sex ed. She campaigned for the bridge before she said "no thanks." And she kept the money while New Orleans was drowning and the bridge dropped in, ironically, the twin cities. But I am glad that Obama has taken the high road. Let the press and the blogs vet her.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Sorcha
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 06:06 PM

Well, no, Mick, I agree, but IS this discussion about her actual qualifications????? Or something else?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 06:13 PM

When I was growing up a feminism was growing. Many women condemned beauty contests as demeaning. She entered the contest, she said, to get a scholarship because , she says, she wasn't good enough at basketball for an athletic scholarship.

She said, in an interview that I say that it wasn't her thing but she did it for the money. But she was enthusiastic enough about it to win Miss Congeniality.

No one is claiming that she has a lot of integrity are they?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 06:14 PM

Indeed they don't Mick but really calling her a pinup girl or pixie redneck don't really address those issues do they?
And they are as repulsive as referring to McCain as 'sclerotic' - which (if it is meant as the insult I assume in context) is offensive to the folks who suffer from this debilitating disease.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 06:15 PM

Its a discussion of what we are learning about her as the days unfold. Her character is a component to consider in judging her ability to lead is it not?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Sorcha
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 06:17 PM

Like anyone here would call someone a 'retard', a 'spaz', etc? Well, IMO, 'sclerotic' is just as bad. THAT is NOT 'issues'

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 06:29 PM

I agree, Sorcha and Emma. I think that all the would be pundits would do well to take the lead from my candidate. Barak Obama has said that families, in his world, are off limits, especially young children. I think comments that are stereotypical are wrong headed and only serve to detract from the real issues.

Comments about the rashness of this decision are fair game. Comments about her participating in a beauty contest are also fair game. Comments about her daughters situation as it relates to her stated position on abstinence only education are fair game. Comments about her lack of understanding of the constitutional role of the VP are fair game. Comments about her administrative experience as it applies to how she would assume command of the military, and indeed the whole country, is fair game. Comments about her taking on special interests and being opposed to earmarks when she has availed herself of earmarks and courted special interests, are fair game. Her positions on the environment are fair game. Her stating that Iraq is some kind of holy war that is blessed by God is fair game.

There is plenty to attack with this candidate on so many fronts that there is no need to resort to characterizations and comments that are demeaning to women.

Now ..... I wonder if you would mind telling Rove's boys to stop using the same tactics through the 527's. I don't get how comparing Obama to Paris Hilton and Brittany Spears, fear mongering by trying to paint him as a Moslem (and by the way, that isn't a bad thing), and trying to "create a big campaign out of small issues" will get it done for you this year. And to hear Republicans complain about character assassination when Karl Rove invented the tactic, and conservatives were so successful at it as to give it a whole new name (swiftboating), and when they attacked an honest to goodness war hero and besmirched his honor and reputation ...... well it just leaves me wondering if they really believe that others started all this. Absolutely delusional.

So lay off the sexist, racist, and agist comments. We don't need them.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Sorcha
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 06:30 PM

Thank you Mick.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 06:37 PM

Here's the reality: Palin is a rightwing-Christian anti-choice extremist who opposes abortion for any reason whasoever, except to save the life of the girl or woman. No exception even for rape, incest, or the health of the woman. No exception for a ten-year-old, a woman carrying a fetus with no chance of life, a woman on the edge of suicide-- let alone the woman who is not ready to be a parent, who is escaping domestic violence, who is already stretched to the limit as a single mother. She wants to force over one million women and girls a year to give birth against their will and judgment. She wants to use the magnificent freedom the women's movement has won for her at tremendous cost and struggle--the movement that won her the right to run those marathons and run Alaska -- to take away the freedom of every other woman in the country.

Her selection does not tell us McCain is a "maverick" who is just stringing the Christian right along, wink-wink. It tells us that he has thrown in his lot with James Dobson, the Family Research Council, the Catholic hierarchy and others for whom criminalizing abortion is the number-one issue. His record of votes against abortion and birth control--125 votes out of 130 in his congresssional and Senate career-- apparently wasn't quite enough for them. By choosing Palin, he wins their enthusiastic support.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 06:40 PM

Well, I'd jus' like to throw in my redneck 2 cents worth into this discussion... Hey, I'll be the first to admit that there's a little redneck in me... I've driven race cars... I've played country 'n western music... I drive a picup truck... I drenk lots a' beer... I like to stand round the hood of a pickup truck an' talk sh*t with country folks... I got a Martin geetar... I like my guns... I can run just 'bout every type of equipement... And I grew up and still live 'round rednecks...

And, yeah, I do on occasion use "redneck" in a way I shouldn't... You know I didn't call Palin a redneck... Heck, I never heard of her before jus a few days ago and I usually don't go labelin' the womenz as rednecks... Real rednecks don't call womenz rednecks... Only folks who ain't got a clue about bein' a redneck would call a womenz a redneck...

But the term "redneck" is generally used as a term of endearment between rednecks... Let an outsider drive into Valley Exxon in a new Jaquar and call anyone in there a redneck and Mr Jaguar gonna be pickin' his butt off the parkin' lot...

I reckon I been blessed in my life 'cause I've lived with balck folks who called me "nigga" and I been called a "redneck" by folks that most folks here think of as rednecks...

But mg is right... Redneck, when used as anything but a name of endearment ain't all that cool and, yeah, I been guilty of sayin' it on occasion an' I won't say it anymore 'less I'm using it as a term of endearment...

Bobert (liberal, ol' hippy redneck)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Sorcha
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 06:44 PM

Stringsinger, THOSE are acceptable comments, IMO.

And bobert, it all depends on WHO calls me a 'bitch' and what they mean by it. I understand YOUR comments too.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 06:48 PM

#Here's the reality: Palin is a rightwing-Christian anti-choice extremist who opposes abortion for any reason whasoever, except to save the life of the girl or woman. No exception even for rape, incest, or the health of the woman. No exception for a ten-year-old, a woman carrying a fetus with no chance of life, a woman on the edge of suicide-- let alone the woman who is not ready to be a parent, who is escaping domestic violence, who is already stretched to the limit as a single mother. She wants to force over one million women and girls a year to give birth against their will and judgment. She wants to use the magnificent freedom the women's movement has won for her at tremendous cost and struggle--the movement that won her the right to run those marathons and run Alaska -- to take away the freedom of every other woman in the country.'

No arguement there whatsoever Stringsinger

but let's stick to this sort of discussion and leave out the sexist crap and 'amusing' misogynist 'jokes'

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 06:50 PM

Well, it's good that she's generating all of this interest!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 06:59 PM

Bobert, I know some nouns can be 'inclusive'
I stayed for a time with some 'teuchter' friends in Glasgow who called themselves by this term and was proud as a 'sassenach' to be adopted by them.
However, 'like most such cultural epithets, it is often offensive, but is sometimes seen as amusing by the speaker.
The term is often taken to mean "ignorant northerner".'
Wiki

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 07:29 PM

Hear, hear, Emma B, 6:48 pm....

This is what I don't get about these folks who claim that governemnt is too big and too invasive into our lives.... This woman who will clearly say that governemnt shouldn't be everything to everyone is advocating that government make decisions for 150 million women???

Go figure???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 07:35 PM

Life begins when you file for Social Security!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 07:55 PM

Of or pertaining to the sclera; Having sclerosis; Hard and insular, often in sclerotic bureaucracy
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sclerotic

Sclerotic is often used to refer to those who have become hardened in their ways, not their arteries. It is a widely used adjective in this sense.

My issue about John McCain's age (in combination with his medical history) is not ageist anymore than actuarial tables are. It is simply a proposition concerning degrees of probability. He has a much higher probability of keeling over from stress than Barack does, for example. If the probabilities were equal, which would be the safer course for the nation's future? Ascent to office of Palin, or of Biden. Don't get silly and over sensitive about alternate definitions.

The other issue surrounding the word has to do with his emotional and intellectual flexibility. He has not demonstrated to me anyway that he is capable of assessing new situations in their own new context with an eye toward synthesizing new and better solutions and directions that lead toward higher conditions.

Obama has demonstrated this talent numerous times since he began his campaign AND he has articulated it as his guiding principle.

Therefore, he is simply the better man, IMHO.

And neither he nor Joe Biden have ever entered a beauty contest, either.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 07:57 PM

Coldest State/Hottest Governor

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:04 PM

Also hotheadest governor...

Word on the street is that she screams and yells frequently... Shoot, she might get p.o.'d and scare McFrail to death...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:08 PM

By Paul Kane
ST. PAUL -- Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, the Republican vice-presidential nominee who revealed Monday that her 17-year-old daughter is pregnant, earlier this year used her line-item veto to slash funding for a state program benefiting teen mothers in need of a place to live.

After the legislature passed a spending bill in April, Palin went through the measure reducing and eliminating funds for programs she opposed. Inking her initials on the legislation -- "SP" -- Palin reduced funding for Covenant House Alaska by more than 20 percent, cutting funds from $5 million to $3.9 million. Covenant House is a mix of programs and shelters for troubled youths, including Passage House, which is a transitional home for teenage mothers.

According to Passage House's web site, its purpose is to provide "young mothers a place to live with their babies for up to eighteen months while they gain the necessary skills and resources to change their lives" and help teen moms "become productive, successful, independent adults who create and provide a stable environment for themselves and their families."

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:38 PM

For almost half my life, I've hated the President and Vice President of my country. Not mere dilike - I HATED them. I hated Nixon-Agnew, Reagan-Bush, Bush-Quayle, and Bush-Cheney. And I didn't much like Johnson or Clinton. I have to admit that compared to George W., I'm starting to have kindly, nostalgic feelings for George H.W. I pity a man who has a son like that....

This year, I'd like to be able to like my country's leaders, whichever ones are elected. So far, I like the candidates from both parties. People seem to be doing the best they can to paint all the candidates as bastards, but I still like them all. I may not agree with the Republicans, but I'm still convinced they're decent people.

Wouldn't it be nice to have an election without hatred, for once?


-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:40 PM

In a word........Yes!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 09:47 PM

I agree, Joe.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 09:52 PM

Hear, hear, Joe.

And you know, I do like John McCain, the individual. I even like Ms Palin, as an individual. I would be delighted to make dinner for them.

I have many friends I like more, also, whom I would not want to see steering the nation in the Oval Office. I feel they don't think clearly enough in that kind of role to be entrusted with a job where the thinking process -- especially in dealing with the unpredicted -- can be so critical to so many.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Barry Finn
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 10:27 PM

Her husband's DUI shouldn't come into play at all. Bush with his one DUI & Cheney with his 2 should've clearded up those disqualifications durning the 1st Bush elections.
We should've listened to what those driving records were saying back then. That the 2 of them weren't qualified to drive taxis, never mind a nation & they weren't.


Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 11:04 PM

"I have to make a correction to my previous post. It wasn't Palin herself, it was her administration and her husband who made the calls, one of which is on tape".

Precisely.

And this is exactly why I've said, and not just on this thread, that we need direct quotes and exact sources--and less smearing--even of politicians.

Palin is not out of the woods, but it's still murky as to if she improperly applied influence--despite the enthusiasm for it, it's not time to hang her yet--especially since she denies "asking anybody on her staff to get in touch with state police safety officials about Wooten": 14 Aug 2008 Anchorage Daily News. Wooten, by the way, is not exactly a prize.

At any rate, it would be good--and a pleasant change--to stick to facts--or at least theories with hard evidence--in political threads.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 01:27 AM

Those things (quotes and sources) can be requested without adopting the kind of snearing, condescending, and self aggrandizing tone that we see in the above post (as well as a large number of other posts coming from the person who made it). Although my guess is that it's just my turn (yet once again) in the rotation of people who are regular targets of gratuitous abuse from this person.

The post of mine in which I mentioned the tape was not a smear. It was a faulty recollection of something I read. Having said that, though, it was her administration and her husband who made the calls.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 02:52 AM

It sounds to me that too many people are trying to form an opinion about her, and really do not know much about her, so they are grasping at straws, and making big deals out of whatever little tidbit that the press throws at us, (More like trying to form an opinion about a person based on tabloid headlines)..So far, (and only from what I've heard), she sounds far more honorable that Hilary Clinton!....but then who knows?...But that's easy!...ANYTHING is more honorable than Hilary!
I say, let more info on her unfold, and don't be so compelled to form an opinion on her, one way or another!..Besides, both the two MAIN candidates suck, anyway!..Ever notice how in the more recent elections, that we can actually vote for a great person...it's always the 'lesser of two evils'???...So, now with that mentality, I guess people try to throw up any evil they can..to show that this or that person is more or less evil than the other.....not, what accomplishments, that the same person may have. That's one of the main reasons that I think Obama is just hot air....nothing he has accomplished, from beginning to end(he even voted against a bill he allegedly wrote, and sponsored....and McCain wishy washing about his issues!....Just don't trust either one of them!
Funny how nobody knew much about Biden, but gave him a pass, but with Palin, a pass would be hard to come by....ok, see ya' 'nuff said!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 03:04 AM

Well, she lies about her record. How honorable is that? (Hillary lied too, but that doesn't make Palin's lies any more honorable.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 03:23 AM

Well, I don't know about any 'alleged' lie, but then IT IS politics!..what did you expect...the truth??????
That's what just kills me...people arguing over other people's lies!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 04:00 AM

McCain and Palin are running on their records, so their records are fair game for voters to scrutinize and to point out when their actual records don't match up with what they're saying about their records.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 04:30 AM

You don't get it!!! NOTHING matches up!!!....jeez!...can't believe people can be so stupid! Look at their records, AFTER they take office, versus the oath they take to uphold the Constitution! Zilch, nada, kaput! ITS ALL BULLSHIT....They just get you to vote to make it taste good in small amounts...then they tell you(us)..."Well, you voted him/her in"....
Obama, McCain, and the rest, are not going to 'rescue' this country!..
That only comes when enough people decide within THEMSELVES, to live honestly, morally, and work for what they have, and not expect the safety net of 'being on the dole'...When God and family come first, not last...and not take politics as a spectator sport, observed with a passive mind...as in watching T.V. These are our lives that these jerk offs are fucking with, and the lives of our neighbors, loved ones and fellow citizens.....and the ones we have up, in front of us now are bought and paid for assholes!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 04:34 AM

Sorry, not assholes...wrong word....(read: Lying sacks of shit!)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 04:42 AM

I don't agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 04:54 AM

Of course you don't.....so what?..it doesn't change the FACT(remember those?)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 06:41 AM

I don't agree that what I am disagreeing with are necessarily facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 07:30 AM

It's also somewhat discouraging to see the continuation of another Mudcat trend--vastly underestimating your opponents. The blithe--sometimes verging on smug--conviction that McCain will drop Palin soon has no basis in fact--it's just wishful thinking. London bookmakers' odds don't count as real evidence.

As I pointed out on the long VP thread just before Obama picked Biden, no matter who McCain picked he would have severe problems, since he had to do two contradictory things--solidify his base and reach out to independents at the same time.

However, anecdotal evidence suggests that with Palin he has the best chance to do both. Already the "Christian Right " is rallying behind her--and him. And at least 4 people who claim to be Hillary voters on the web are saying they will now vote for McCain--as a result of this pick. (Obviously on the web you never know if people are what they claim).


Why?   Several reasons.   She's actually wrestling with--perhaps making the wrong choices--some of the most serious problems a real US family has to make--not just talking about them.   Daughter pregnant at 17. Downs syndrome child. And the "Christian Right" sees her as actually living her faith--dealing with with these issues as a Christian should--not taking what they consider is the easy way out--in both cases.

Also, she is actually doing what so many on the other side talk about in politics--cracking down on corruption--in her own party, no less. For instance, look at her resignation from the oil and gas committee in January 2004, rather than countenance the unethical behavior she saw in that committee.

And her struggle against corruption in the Alaska Republican party is successful even--they say Alaska politics is littered with the carcasses of her opponents.   No wonder McCain likes her--on a smaller scale, she's far more successful than he is, doing what he would love to do.

This is of course why the trooper problem is so dangerous for her. But so far it appears she cannot be herself fingered. (We'll see what happens now--especially since there is now a hotline in Alaska for anybody with information on this issue).   And that is why the earlier attempt to claim there was a tape of her actually personally involved in firing Monehan was so crucial--and, it turns out, so clumsy. Mudcatters really have to start being more careful with facts--and start using more direct quotes.


Now I would guess that any real Hillary voter couldn't possibly support Palin--especially on the Roe v Wade issue and the health care issue--though we don't yet in detail know Palin's views on health care. It appears she is willing to slash it to ribbons for budgetary reasons, but we need more facts.

But Palin is a real mother, grappling with real issues mothers--and fathers--- across the US face. It's easy to caricature her views and make easy predictions McCain won't keep her.

I am totally against what McCain stands for-- in Iraq policy, health care, Roe v Wade, taxes, and environmental policy, etc. But I actually have a lot of respect for her--though there's a huge difference in doing what she is doing on her family's income--over $200, 000--and doing it on a real middle class income.

But I don't underestimate her--or McCain. Nor should other Mudcatters.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 07:32 AM

Personally, I hope she does well tonight!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 08:07 AM

A bit of clarification.   I believe that in both the cases of the Downs Syndrome child and the pregnancy of the 17-year-old, Palin's attitudes have been instrumental in creating the serious problems the family faces. She is in fact a dangerous role model--especially since most families will not have the $200,000- plus income Palin's family has--which eases the way somewhat.

But according to the lights of her own faith, she has made the right choices. I totally disagree--but I respect her for following her own principles.

Also, re: changing her mind on the "Bridge to Nowhere"--no politician is pure on this one (telling your constituents one thing, then telling another audience another.)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 08:11 AM

"I hope she does well"--no surprise there. Anybody who opposes Obama is fine with some people--particularly those who don't think about what a McCain administration would bring.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 08:21 AM

Alot of folks are forgetting that thius woman is ***not*** running for president... John McCain is and John McCain is a hothead... JOhn McCain will continue the war in Iraq looking for that elusive victory so "Johnny can come home marching again" and the people will line the streets throwing confetti... John McCain will continue down the fiscally irresponsible road and John McCain wuill apppoint Supreme Court judegs who will plunge the country into darkness when it comes to women's rights...

That is the reality...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 08:37 AM

The AP story in our newspapers this morning mentioned her use as Governor of the line-item veto to reduce funding for programs to assist young unwed mothers. I wonder if Palin now has more empathy with such mothers. Of course her daughter doesn't require State assistance, given the income of her parents but I would hope that the daughter have access to professional counseling.

I don't see the McKain Campaign dumping this Vice Presidential choice, even if she is an admitted past marijuana user (she inhaled).

I view this choice with great interest.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: SINSULL
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 08:39 AM

"A bit of clarification.   I believe that in both the cases of the Downs Syndrome child and the pregnancy of the 17-year-old, Palin's attitudes have been instrumental in creating the serious problems the family faces. She is in fact a dangerous role model--especially since most families will not have the $200,000- plus income Palin's family has--which eases the way somewhat.

But according to the lights of her own faith, she has made the right choices. I totally disagree--but I respect her for following her own principles."


We went through this in another thread - it is no one's business but her own.

"Dangerous Role Model"????? Now you are sounding like Dan Quayle and Murphy Brown. So you really think that 40+ women are going to get pregnant in the hopes of having a Down's Syndrome child or that more 17 year olds will become pregnant because a VP wannabee's daughter is pregnant?

Walk into any high school in the USA and randomly ask teenage girls who Sarah Palin is. Most will not have a clue - I know. I mentioned her name in the office today and had to explain who she is.

None of this has any relationship to her abilities as VP or president should she find herself in that position.

I will listen to her speech with great interest. I am also betting that she bows out before Election Day.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 08:40 AM

She been SILENT for 5 days as confusion mounts.

Now they say she didn't support Pat Buchannon. One of a dozen reversals.

'Which lane' McCain and Palin 'both lanes' can take any flop flip they desire.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 08:42 AM

Personally, I would like to see some real documentation for the assertion that Palin has been cracking down on corruption in Alaska. So far, other than people saying she has been doing this, I have not seen any supporting evidence. I would like to see articles in the media that were current when the alleged cracking down allegedly took place. Mudcatters need to be more careful with facts. We need sources and evidence.

On the subject of the "bridge to nowhere", it's not that she flip flopped that is the problem. It's the fact that she is lying when she says she never supported it.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 08:54 AM

One more thing. Supposedly: Huffington Post 2 Sept 2008--therefore not unbiased-- in her church she has said some amazing things about foreign policy. In June, according to this source, she said: "Pray for our military mean and women who are striving to do what is right. Also, for this country, leaders are sending (US soldiers) out on a task that is from God".

If that is an accurate quote, that sort of of attitude on foreign policy is totally unacceptable.

Just as Obama was grilled--and on something he didn't even say--she should be made to either confirm or deny that this is her attitude.

And if she confirms it, that should be enough--just in itself--to make any thinking person refuse to support the McCain-Palin ticket.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 08:56 AM

I'm still waiting for some documentation and evidence that Sarah Palin has been struggling against corruption in Alaska.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Tinker
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 09:12 AM

Sarah's Address at Assemble of God Church

The video of her speaking at the church is posted in the Huffington Article. Judge for yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: SINSULL
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 09:23 AM

There is one bit of this story that has me confounded. I do not understand how a parent (male or female) would willingly drag a 17 year old pregnant child into the limelight and essentially throw her to the wolves. This girl is now on the front page of every paper in the country at a time when she needs privacy, love, support... Mom says she is "going to have to grow up fast".

So, my confusion is:
A) In my experience a girl who marries at seventeen because she is pregnant is in for a rocky marriage and more than likely divorce. The baby will suffer emotionally from the instability in the home. Grandma says deal with it and moves on with her career. I could not do that...but in reality it is none of my business.
B) Grandma's singleness of purpose and ability to separate the emotional from the practical may well mean she will be a great president. Certainly she is a successful politician. Governor of Alaska doesn't happen by accident.

I am babbling and still not clearly explaining my confusion...sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 09:28 AM

"Only someone in the throes of a serious mental condition could have make a pick this astonishing. This focus group confirms the Rasmussen Reports polling that, among undecided voters, the Palin pick makes 6 percent more likely to vote for McCain and 31 percent less likely to vote for McCain. About 59 percent of these undecided voters do not think Palin is qualified to be president. It is a stunt gone terribly amiss. And the hilarious thing is that the right wing really believes that this is going to turn everything around. Amazing, amazing, amazing." Time blog

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 09:45 AM

"Sarah Palin is just as much of a reformer and a maverick as she was on Friday morning, but that's not what most people are thinking about right now."

What? She's a reformer and a maverick? You mean, the way McCain is a maverick, voting with George Bush over 90% of the time? Please do your homework. Sarah Palin is a woman who said that our soldiers are in Iraq "on a task from God," she tried to have books banned when she was mayor of Wasilla, the town budget exploded under her watch, she procured tens of millions of dollars in earmarks, tried to fire everyone who disagreed with her, increased a regressive sales tax while mayor that even taxed food, and was a member of a radical fringe group that wanted Alaska to declare independence from the rest of the country. That's not a maverick, that's a wacko.

— Posted by rmh "

(NYT Reader Responses)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 09:47 AM

She hopes to blame the liberal media for her daughter's celebrity.

Amos, you did not write that rant, you are too cultured and sensible.


TInker

The curch link you posted is not her long standing church.

She threw her Pentacostal church under the bus 21/2 years ago when she became Govenor.
BECAUSE it was not politically correct to be seen speaking in tongues.

No need to pull a Reverend Wright on her but she certainly could not deny it.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 09:51 AM

The NYT Editorial on Sarah:

"As far as we can tell, Mr. McCain and his aides did almost no due diligence before choosing Ms. Palin, raising serious questions about his management skills. The fact that Ms. Palin's 17-year-old daughter is pregnant is irrelevant to her candidacy. There are, however, very serious questions about her political past and her ideology.

If Mr. McCain wanted to break with his party's past and choose the Republicans' first female vice presidential candidate, there are a number of politicians out there with far greater experience and stature than Ms. Palin, who has been in Alaska's Statehouse for less than two years.

Before she was elected governor, she was mayor of a tiny Anchorage suburb, where her greatest accomplishment was raising the sales tax to build a hockey rink. According to Time magazine, she also sought to have books banned from the local library and threatened to fire the librarian.

For Mr. McCain to go on claiming that Mr. Obama has too little experience to be president after almost three years in the United States Senate is laughable now that he has announced that someone with no national or foreign policy experience is qualified to replace him, if necessary.

Senator Lindsey Graham, the South Carolina Republican who has been one of Mr. McCain's most loyal friends, said Tuesday that he was certain that Ms. Palin would take the right positions on issues like Iraq, Russia's invasion of Georgia and Iran's nuclear weapons ambitions. That seemed based largely on his repeated assertion that Ms. Palin would be tended by Mr. McCain's foreign policy advisers. That was not much of an endorsement.

Some of the things Ms. Palin has had to say in the recent past about foreign policy are especially worrisome. In a speech last June to her former church in Wasilla, Ms. Palin said the war in Iraq was "a task that is from God." Mr. Bush made similar claims as he rejected all sound mortal advice on how to conduct the war.

Mr. McCain, Mr. Graham and others also claim that Ms. Palin is a fearless reformer who is committed to fighting waste, fraud and earmarks. Ms. Palin did show courage taking on some of the Alaska Republican Party's most sleazy politicians. But she also was an eager recipient of earmarked money as a mayor and governor.

Mayor Palin gathered up $27 million in subsidies from Washington, $15 million of it for a railroad from her town to the ski resort hometown of Senator Ted Stevens, now under indictment for failing to report gifts.
..."

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: olddude
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 09:55 AM

Its time to burn some hotdogs, drink a beer and fart. don't you think we beat it enough. Joe gave some good advice. We beat up each other yet the only thing we really can do is vote our conscience whatever way that is for us personally

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 10:04 AM

Top Ten Most Disturbing Facts and Impressions of Sarah Palin

"Palin in an insult to all thinking people, particularly to women, environmentalists, animal lovers, educated and credentialed professionals, working regular folks, and the list goes on. "

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 10:06 AM

Comon over, were gonna burn some jello and drink some Kool Aid.

DID YOU KNOW "this lady" Palin speaks in tongues?

If McCain wanted a Republican woman on the world stage I would have told him to pick Kay Hutchinson.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: curmudgeon
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 10:15 AM

Time
portrays a less than pleasant person. Her attitudes onculture and literature are disgusting - Tom

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 10:17 AM

"'As far as we can tell, [NYT] Mr. McCain and his aides did almost no due diligence before choosing Ms. Palin...'"


                   But, of course, the New York Times always gets everything wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 10:21 AM

quote

'GGRHBK JKJJJJJJJJJJJJJ BGJHIEJEJLEEE NHOOOH HINI HOMINI HOMIHIEQUARBLUM OMIHIEQUARBLUM.../   /... OMIHIEQUARBLUM INNN EATAERNUUUM UUUTEERUUUUSSS Eternum UTerus quaobiliiy foom'

excerpt of Sarah Palin speaking in tongues.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: curmudgeon
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 10:22 AM

The   linkgot left off my last post - Tom

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 10:24 AM

If I wrote Horror novels, Palin is the best damned candidate to be the antiChrist that I have ever seen...lol

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 10:25 AM

"But, of course, the New York Times always gets everything wrong. "

Hardly ever.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 10:44 AM

Judith Miller, Jason Blair, the list is endless!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 10:45 AM

The awesome Church talk link below is really really super...ya gotta see it cuz its gonna really really be a good good kool thing ta see y'know


"Pay for the new pipleline" "Pray for our God's plan in Iraq"   

You are all a buncha kool lookin Christians"

Lets give the Lord a hand for our Govenor pray for Sarah's great wisdom and strength.
Amen

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 10:58 AM

"Judith Miller, Jason Blair, the list is endless! "

No, it is not "endless".

As with any organization, there are problems and they are dealt with. The NYTimes has a reputation for accuracy that is above most other newspapers.   They set standards and when problems arise, it becomes news - primarly because simple minded critics love pouncing on an open wound.   That is so much easier to do then to examine the reaction the newspaper had to the issue and what they did to fix it.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 11:01 AM

excerpt of her cute little laugh cute little laugh



Full show
Alaska Radio show with Sarah Palin (bad language warning)


Isn't it cute they way she drops her g's on any ing word.
Its really really adorable.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 11:11 AM

Actually your list has two items on it. Add Bill Kristol and David Brooks and you get maybe fouor.

The facts as they have been reported are that the vetting interview occurred only the day before the announcement and that the vetting staff who do the background checks weren't even all in-state yet before the announcement was made.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Wesley S
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 11:13 AM

George Will had this to say on the subject in todays paper:

George Will: Experience can be a cruel teacher
07:10 AM CDT on Wednesday, September 3, 2008
The word "experience" appears 91 times in the Federalist Papers, those distillations of conservative sense and sensibility. America's Founders were empiricists and students of history who trusted "that best oracle of wisdom, experience," which is humanity's "least fallible guide."

The Founders knew, as conservatives do, that all guides are fallible. Hence conservatism's inclination to discern prescriptions in traditions, which are mankind's slow adjustments to the accretion of experiences.

So, Sarah Palin. The man who would be the oldest to embark on a first presidential term has chosen as his possible successor a person of negligible experience.

In 1912, Mr. McCain's Arizona became the 48th state. In 1959, Ms. Palin's Alaska became the 49th. Modern conservatism has the libertarian cast of a region still steeped in an individualism natural to the frontier's spaciousness.

But American conservatism depends on what it calls "fusion," the collaboration of libertarians and social conservatives concerned that liberty unleavened by restraints creates a licentious culture. Ms. Palin supposedly is fusion in one person.

Many cultural conservatives, who are much of the GOP's base, consider Mr. McCain's adherence to their persuasion perfunctory. By his selection of Ms. Palin, he got the enthusiasm of the base. But what has he got in Ms. Palin?

In coming days he and we will learn from a stern teacher, experience.

–Excerpted from a column by The Washington Post's George Will

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 11:14 AM

Put yourself in McCain's shoes when Sarah takes the podium and for every TV show she does for the next two weeks.

If the guy is gonna stoke out.. it will be then.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 11:19 AM

This person put her finger on the hypocrisy that's been bothering me about the pregnant teen. From HERE:

In America, of course, debates about sex often mask debates about abortion. Kris Miccio, who teaches family law at the University of Denver, wonders how a party that opposes abortion rights can invoke a leave-this-family-alone mantra on a reproductive issue.

"The Republicans are saying this is a private family decision, but they don't accord the same privacy if a woman does not choose to carry a fetus to term," Miccio says. "If it's a private decision for the Palin family, it's a private decision for any family."

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 11:33 AM

"Actually your list has two items on it. Add Bill Kristol and David Brooks and you get maybe fouor..."


                Great, thanks, Amos, and then there's that weird publisher, I can't remember his name, and...

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 01:26 PM

From: CarolC
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 06:41 AM

I don't agree that what I am disagreeing with are necessarily facts.

"It all depends what you definition of 'is' is"-----Bill Clinton

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 01:26 PM

It strikes me that an awful lot of the posts in this thread are just the kind of thing that would make a lot of people more likely to back Sarah Palin.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 01:36 PM

McGrath, I think you're right! If it pisses off the morons, it must be good!...Right Amos??

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 02:05 PM

I dunno. I am not pissed off, so I guess I don't qualify. Which morons were you referring to?

I think if anything tends to irk people, it is the effort to spin things to the point of falsifying them. Calling her qualified to command because, as Governor, she was the titular commander of the Alaskan National Guard, whom she dispatched to one forest fire, Ibelieve, or the proposition that she understands international tension because she lives with fifty miles of the Bering Strait, is insultingly disingenuous.

"WASHINGTON (AP) — Republican presidential candidate John McCain says his vice presidential pick, Sarah Palin, was already an experienced government official while his Democratic rival, Barack Obama, was working as a community organizer.

She wasn't. Palin was finishing college, getting married and working as a TV sportscaster when Obama was directing a church-based community group on Chicago's South Side in 1985-88.

McCain sought to make the comparison in an appearance on Fox News Sunday, criticizing Obama as too inexperienced to be in the White House despite his choice of a running mate who's also being called too unseasoned for that role.

Challenged about his vice presidential choice, McCain said as governor of Alaska for the last two years, Palin "has had enormous responsibilities, none of which Senator Obama had." Later, McCain elaborated that "as a governor, she has had executive experience. She didn't sit in the state legislature."

The same contrast could be made with McCain himself, whose entire 26-year political career has been spent in Congress...." (AP)

A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 02:13 PM

Well the McCain campaign is getting the word out now that Palin is more qualified to be president than Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 02:35 PM

Well, Obama DOES have 1/2 the experiance that Dan Quayle did... But Dan was only the VP.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 02:43 PM

Tucker Bounds claimed, on CNN, that Palin had international savvy having had to deploy the National Guard overseas to Iraq! I call that an outright lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 02:47 PM

As I've said for sometime now, "NONE OF THEM ARE QUALIFIED!" So let's not split hairs!
You mean, to blacks, a black man is more qualified, because he's black??...or putting a woman on as VP to get the woman's vote, makes her more qualified??..or picking Biden, because 'middle America' can relate to him, makes him more qualified?? or McCain, because he was a POW, makes him more qualified??..(even though, as Commander in Chief, he probably would be 'more sensitive, and appreciative to those in the military).   A candidate who promises that life will be easier, because the government will spoon feed is public? That's a qualification?? What exactly do we look for in qualification??...what the 'news' (read: propaganda machine), tells us???...A lot of the 'average' citizens a are downright scary, due to their half-witted, emotionalized opinions(and some on here, as well). What makes a country strong, is the values that the citizens hold within themselves that govern them.(Not the manufactured imposed on us 'values'). Looking for handouts, and government control of everything is NOT a strength! If the citizenry of a country, allows their Constitution be broken down, slowly, bit by bit, to facilitate some agenda, then IT IS A WEAKNESS. This has been going on for a while, and to continue the programs of our present administration, would do that, and the proposed programs of both candidates, will still do it, however, the Democrats, just want to focus on other parts of the Constitution, to 'Change'. It's madness! We are smarter than that!...but we do nothing...because we are also weak!..then we try to blame it on some one else!..WE let it happen!..The ones who are running, are only saying that they want to 'fix' it, but in reality, they are only extending the damage, and make it 'even more acceptable' with smooth words!....and yum-yum, we just wait to eat it up!! If you really want something on T.V., that is pretty factual, watch the Weather Channel

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 02:54 PM

And, what do you do besides come to Mudcat and tell us all how stupid we are? Are you running for office? Are you marching in protest? Have any videos on youtube which enlighten one and all? Since you know it all, you must have some solutions, real solutions.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 02:55 PM

Truth hurts, doesn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Greg B
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 02:56 PM

Quoth Sinsull:

"We went through this in another thread - it is no one's business but her own."

They tried that on with the Bill and Monica show. Didn't work out too
well for Al Gore in the following election.

In this case we have a woman who's trying to tell the nation, and even
more, codify, how it's youth ought to be brought up. No sex education
in schools, save for abstinence, no contraception training, save for
abstinence, no access to public funding for contraception, no access
to abortion, period.

Is it fair to point out that those policies in her own family have
failed her own children (in the opinion of this enlightened,
left-leaning, liberal)? You bet.

That a 17-year-old headed into a 'had to get married' marriage is
statistically headed into a personal disaster? That 44-year-olds
giving birth to Downs babies are the argument both for prevention
and for pre-natal genetic screening?

But Sarah Palin, she'd deny young men and women education,
contraception, and abortion. She'd even, if she could, deny
pre-menopausal women the wherewithal to avoid conception or,
if they do conceive, the means to avoid spending their late-
middle-age caring for a developmentally disabled youngster
(or of taking on motherhood all over again with their eldest
in or on the cusp of his second decade).

She's clearly not one who's going to separate her personal moral
choices from public policy.

If she were, then I'd be a bit more sympathetic to the "it's none
of our business" argument.

But that's just not the case. She wants us all to run our private
lives the way she runs hers and those of her children. In other
words, she wants to make OUR business HER business.

She wants the power to intrude into our business.

In that case, damned right it's my business.

And it's some really bad business, indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 02:59 PM

Greg B, ..That was well thought out and laid out! Thank you!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 02:59 PM

Well, I wouldn't know--I haven't seen any from your posts. For example, Obama has gone out of his way to make it vividly clear that his proposals will not be easy, and they will not be spoonfed.

So I am not sure who you're talking about. You and Rig have a great talent for wasting information and replacing it with your own special brands of trash.


I look forward with great interest to Palin's show tonight.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 03:03 PM

Well, I wouldn't know--I haven't seen any from your posts. For example, Obama has gone out of his way to make it vividly clear that his proposals will not be easy, and they will not be spoonfed.

The only thing about Obama saying it, is, What do you mean>>...he's not even vividly clear. I guess if he says it, then its beyond being bullshit, right? His acceptance speech was peppered with inaccuracies!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 03:36 PM

"No sex education in schools, save for abstinence, no contraception training, save for abstinence, no access to public funding for contraception..."

Is there any unequivocal evidence that that stuff actually results in lower number of young girls getting pregnant, or lower numbers of young boys getting them pregnant?

There may well be. Common sense may suggest that there is. But common sense isn't always right. So is it in this case?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 03:38 PM

PErhaps you would be more persuasive if you used specifics, Janet.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 03:38 PM

Greg, well-said. Thanks.

Amos, it's not worth it...self-delusions repel anything we say...time to quit feeding the troll. Laughable, really, if it weren't so pathetic.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 03:51 PM

"In this case we have a woman who's trying to tell the nation, and even more, codify, how it's youth ought to be brought up. No sex education..."


             Hopefully the mother has the daughter's brilliance, for not having been taught, she seems to have caught onto this sex thing pretty well.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 03:52 PM

I have to say I'm not too concerned about the doom-sayers who claim that McCain and Palin are horrible right-wingers who will impose their right-wing ideology on the nation. We've had a number of right-wing people in government since Roe v. Wade, and not has been able to affect any significant restrictions on the choice of abortion. Right now, we're ruled by an absolute idiot and a pro-business megalomaniacal genious, and we're in trouble - but I don't think either McCain or Palin is an idiot or a megalomaniac. Most likely, if either McCain or Obama gets elected, there will be few and gradual changes, and nothing that is repulsive to the majority of the electorate. The extremists on both sides will squawk, but I don't think either McCain or Obama will do anything particularly horrible as president (and neither would Biden or Palin). They're all fair-minded people, not likely to try to impose a minority position on the nation.

It takes a real idiot like George W. Bush to get us in a screwed-up situation like the one we're in.

My patron saint, Alfred E. Neuman, says we have nothing to worry about this time around.

What, ME worry????

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 03:57 PM

"it's hard to imagine anyone who would be qualified for the raft of personal and political challenges Palin faces. Over the next months, and all at once, a list of the things she'll need to deal with:

* 0her continuing duties as governor of Alaska
* a legislature-funded investigation into questions of whether she has abused her office in a vendetta against her former brother-in-law, a probe that prompted her to hire a personal attorney
* the care of her fifth child, Trig, born this spring with Down syndrome—a condition that requires close parental attention and care, especially in the first year of the child's life
* the pregnancy and pending marriage of her teenage daughter Bristol, who is planning to wed the father before Election Day
* learning the routines and rituals of the national campaign trail, which she will be required to traverse on her own plane, with her own staff
* getting a sense of the Lower 48 states, most of which she has never visited
* figuring out how to deal with McCain, whom she barely knows
* handling whatever national press interviews the McCain campaign allows her to do—and she will have to do some to prepare herself for later events
* prep for the nationally televised vice-presidential debate with Sen. Joe Biden, a legislator with 36 years of seniority, who is personally acquainted with the rulers of nations Palin may never have even heard of

At first glance, this is a little like dropping Peter Pan into the middle of Anbar Province. On the other hand, former Sen. Fred Thompson pointed out last night that Palin may be the only national candidate in history who knows how to field-dress a moose.

It's hard to see how that skill will translate into politics, but we are about to find out...." (Newsweek)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 03:59 PM

sorry.

"In Alaska, Palin is challenging the dominant, sometimes corrupting, role of oil companies in the state's political culture. "The public has put a lot of faith in us," says Palin during a meeting with lawmakers in her downtown Anchorage office, where—as if to drive the point home—the giant letters on the side of the ConocoPhillips skyscraper fill an entire wall of windows. "They're saying, 'Here's your shot, clean it up'." For Palin, that has meant tackling the cozy relationship between the state's political elite and the energy industry that provides 85 percent of Alaska's tax revenues—and distancing herself from fellow Republicans, including the state's senior U.S. senator, Ted Stevens, whose home was recently searched by FBI agents looking for evidence in an ongoing corruption investigation. (Stevens has denied any wrongdoing.) But even as she tackles Big Oil's power, Palin has transformed her own family's connections to the industry into a political advantage. Her husband, Todd, is a longtime employee of BP, but, as Palin points out, the "First Dude" is a blue-collar "sloper," a fieldworker on the North Slope, a cherished occupation in the state. "He's not in London making the decisions whether to build a gas line."

In an interview with NEWSWEEK, Palin said it's time for Alaska to "grow up" and end its reliance on pork-barrel spending. Shortly after taking office, Palin canceled funding for the "Bridge to Nowhere," a $330 million project that Stevens helped champion in Congress. The bridge, which would have linked the town of Ketchikan to an island airport, had come to symbolize Alaska's dependence on federal handouts. Rather than relying on such largesse, says Palin, she wants to prove Alaska can pay its own way, developing its huge energy wealth in ways that are "politically and environmentally clean.""

from http://74.6.239.67/search/cache?ei=UTF-8&p=In+Alaska%2C+Palin+is+challenging+the+dominant%2C+sometimes+corrupting%2C+role+of+oil

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 04:06 PM

And from the WSJ-

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122039919493892941.html?mod=opinion_main_commentaries


Why Obama Can't Close the Sale
By AL HUBBARD and NOAM NEUSNER
September 3, 2008; Page A23

Even before John McCain shook up the presidential race by tapping Gov. Sarah Palin to be his running mate, polls weren't showing the late-August lead that Barack Obama (and many Republicans) expected. Why so?

It's not because of the brilliance of the McCain campaign. Rather we believe that -- despite the media's best efforts to exempt Mr. Obama's policies from critical examination -- American voters aren't sheep. They pay attention to the candidates and positions and make wise decisions about who should lead the country.

True, Mr. Obama enjoys several advantages. Republicans are struggling nationwide in head-to-head contests. Democrats lead in voter registration, and have a well-funded presidential candidate.

Yet Americans have not committed to Mr. Obama. Why?

....
But here's the thing: It's not that Mr. Obama hasn't been specific enough in his governing plans. To the contrary, he has been very specific about his tax policy, health-care and energy proposals. It's that voters are paying attention and appear not to like what Candidate Obama is saying.

Mr. Obama has proposed a massive tax increase on investors, business owners, and the "wealthy." At a time when the American people rate the economy as the central issue of the campaign, a tax hike doesn't make a lot of political sense. Voters know that a tax hike won't help the economy.

Moreover, Mr. Obama's tax plans would directly or indirectly harm U.S. investors by raising the capital gains and dividend taxes. More than half of U.S. households are equity owners, so Mr. Obama's proposal risks alienating half the population.

Mr. Obama claims to offer a tax cut to moderate-income families, but a significant portion of Mr. Obama's tax plan is a welfare giveaway costing more than $648 billion over 10 years, according to the Tax Policy Center.

How so? He would authorize a hodgepodge of refundable tax credits covering everything from education, mortgage payments, child care and other items for people who do not pay income taxes now.

About 38% of U.S. households pay no income tax today. Under a President Obama (whose policies would shave 15.3 million households off the tax rolls) that share would grow to nearly half of all American households.

We have been repeatedly told that everyone should pay their fair share. So this sounds grossly unfair and like a return of tax-and-spend liberal economics. No wonder there is a lot of doubt about the wisdom of the junior senator from Illinois.

....
Again, Americans are wiser than they are given credit. They know that if you restrict supply and tax production, prices go up.

....
Mr. Obama is wondering why he can't shake Mr. McCain. His problem isn't his plans for the campaign. It's his plans for governing the country. Americans just aren't buying into them.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 04:07 PM

The media regularily puts McCain and Palin forward as Mavericks.

I see it in Palin.

But, is it true for the much older, career politician McCain?

Why so?

Below are some definations of the word:
http://www.wordreference.com/definition/maverick

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/maverick
http://www.developing-leadership.com/definition-of-a-maverick.html

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 04:09 PM

sorry- previous posted to wrong thread... can be deleted

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 04:17 PM

here it is:

http://online.wsj.com/article/declarations.html



"Another ... blind spot. I'm bumping into a lot of critics who do not buy the legitimacy of small town mayorship (Palin had two terms in Wasilla, Alaska, population 9,000 or so) and executive as opposed to legislative experience. But executives, even of small towns, run something. There are 262 cities in this country with a population of 100,000 or more. But there are close to a hundred thousand small towns with ten thousand people or less. "You do the math," the conservative pollster Kellyanne Conway told me. "We are a nation of Wasillas, not Chicagos.""

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Barry Finn
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 04:19 PM

I'm glad that you're so possitive Joe. BUT, anyone that thinks we are on God's mission in Iraq or that we'll see it through till victory of "Hell freezes over" is scary if they're at the the helm.
George W has landed US here & he's not the zelot that Shara is & McCain isn't half the idiot the W is, so with the combo of the 2 running now & the 2 that has been running it's gonna go from Gloom to Doom real fast.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 04:32 PM

Sarah Palin:
B.A. Journalism, U. Idaho.
PTA parent
Mayor of a town of 5,000
Twenty months governor of Alaska (a state with a population smaller than most mid-size american cities).
Chosen as mccain's running mate without being fully vetted

Barack Obama:
B.A. International Affairs, Columbia University,
J.D. Harvard, Magna Cum Laude
President of the Harvard Law Review, Harvard
Community Organizer, CHicago
Professor in Constitutional Law, University of Chicago,
Illinois State Senator, 8 years
U.S. Senator, 4 years, Foreign Relations, Environment and Public Works and Veterans' Affairs committees through December 2006
In January 2007, he left the Environment and Public Works committee and took additional assignments with Health, Education, Labor and Pensions and Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs.[70] He also became Chairman of the Senate's subcommittee on European Affairs.[71] As a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Obama has made official trips to Eastern Europe, the Middle East, Central Asia and Africa. Currently Democratic nominee for President of the United States. Has visited with all major european leaders including Pres. Sarkozy of France, Prime Ministers of Germany and Iraq, etc. has been fully vetted and chosen to represent his party after 25 national debates against major national political figures. fully outlined policies on education, healthcare, economy, foreign relations etc. Organized a successful upstart campaign against an entrenched favorite for the Democratic nomination and prosecuted it completely successfully.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....

A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: curmudgeon
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 04:40 PM

Now be fair, Amos. Do the same for McCain and Biden. Thanks - Tom

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 04:48 PM

Amos,

I DID say that Obama had half the experience that Dan Quayle had, when he ran for VP.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Sorcha
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 05:12 PM

Sighhhh.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 05:40 PM

Yes, Bruce, you did.

And it was scurrilous of you.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 05:40 PM

Well, the problem I have with Guest from Sanity's positions at 2:47 is that on one hand GfS suggests that there are too many governemnt programs and then defends Greg B's observation that if there was a more comprhensive family planning "programs" that maybe a Down's Syndrome child wouldn't have been born to a 44 year old woman and maybe her 17 year old daughter would not be pregnant...

That's the problem...

The Repubs have convinced people that they don't need these (and other) programs but when you strip them down these programs do make our society better... I was a social worker when Ronald Reagan started this bullsh*t and I saw first hand what happens when social programs get the axe... It isn't very pretty... We have more people living in poverty than any developed country in the world... It ain't like we are lavishing program after program on our least fortunate... The Department of Defense spends more in one month than is spent in an entire year on our poor... That is shamefull... Yet we still have folks spouting off about "Welfare Caddilac Moms" as if they exist... What a friggin' and cruelass joke... We should be ashamed, and not just for how little we spend on our poor but also in how we have such a large percentage of people who are completely ignorant of how little we spend yet spout off every time the issue comes up... That in itself is sickening!!!

And also sickening is the notion that governemnt has too many controls over businesses and corporations... With Ronald Reagan came not only the gutting of social programs but also the ***BIG D***, as in DEREGULATION!!! That was supposed to be the panecia to cure all of society's ills as the benevolent Fat Cats would make more money and create worderfull, well paying jobs and all would be well... Well, after 3 decades it is evident that that little experiement has been a complete flop to everyone but the upper 5%... Everyone else is going backwards or, at best, treading water...

But back to this deregulation which has made the wealthy wealthier and everyone else suffer; I find it interesting that those who still hang out around the Koolaid cooler didn't say a peep when the government--- you know, that thing they say is too big and does too much for people--- handed out $26B to the airlines after 9/11 and more recently close to $30B to Bear-Sterns??? Where was the protest from the Repubs then??? But these same people will get up on their soapboxes and proclaim, as if they actually knew anything (which they don't), that the governemnt has too many handout programs???

Give this old hillbilly a break...

So what I have deducted is that the folks who make statements that there are too many handout programs aren't informed people and in a truely ***Jeffersonain Democracy*** these people wouldn't/shouldn't be allowed to participate because they are not part of an "informed electorate"... In other words, the reason that the US is slowly sinking isn't because of too much regulation or too many handout programs... It's because we let ignorannt people vote...

                      End of Rant

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 05:50 PM

"Organized a successful upstart campaign against an entrenched favorite for the Democratic nomination and prosecuted it completely successfully."


                     Should read: Bankrolled to the hilt by a left wing activist group with questionable objectives. Out-spent opponent shamelessly to buy the nomination.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 05:52 PM

How so, Amos?


How many years has Obama been a national level politician?

How many years had Dan Quayle?


Simple facts- even you can figure this one out.




NOW, to be fair, compare the experience of the PRESIDENTIAL candidates: Obama vs McCain.

Then back off stating that since Palin has less ( arguable, but you seem to think so) experience than Biden, she is not qualified.

If you keep stating that, I will have to insist that Obama is not, as well. By your ANALYSIS of the facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 06:28 PM

Experience = Red Herring...

Like I have pointed out, folks, arguing with McCain/Bishites about experience is a waste of time...

John McCain has, what, 30 years experience as a Senator yet he has very poor judegement and is a hothead... You want him sittin' accroos the table from Putin??? He'll ghet you into more wars than you can count...

Obama has, what, half a dozen years as a legislatior but knew that ivading Iraq was a bad idea... He is also thoughtful... What a concept!?!?!? Yeah, he thinks before he speaks...

So, once again I'd advise my friends here to not be lured into the Republican "experience" trap and ignore the posts here that try to suck you in 'casue when it comes down to it, it's judegement and good ideas that Repubs lack...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 06:48 PM

Experience isn't the only thing. It's what that experience reveals about you that is important.

Dubya had been Governor of the geographically largest state (after Alaska) for years and years...

Of course this gave him the opportunity to demonstrate pretty clearly that he was completely incompetent, but somehow this never registered with the people who voted for him.

I think Bobert is right there. Sarah Palin's advent should be an occasion to recognise that arguments about "experience" and "lack of experience" are dead ends. What matters is judgement and good ideas. And competence and trustworthiness.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 06:51 PM

On the subject of the definition of "is"...

I'm more concerned with the definition of "fact", which the person who used it in the post preceding my 03 Sep 08 - 06:41 AM post appears to be torturing as thoroughly as Bill Clinton did the word "is".


On the subject of whether or not McCain would take this country down a road as disasterous as the one Bush took us down - McCain was embracing the PNAC agenda even before Bush was embracing it, as we can see in his speech from 1999 on the policy he calls "Rogue State Rollback" (which looks to me pretty much exactly like the talking points for the PNAC)...

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9407EFD61E3EF93BA35751C1A96F958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 06:56 PM

In my opinion, it was scurrilous to suggest that Dan "Potatoe" Quayle's qualities as a candidate stood in any degree against Barack Obama's. Quayle was a lousy statesman, illiterate and bumbling, and showed no sign of managerial competence, and had no particular accomplishments of merit.

He was, in all those respects, the opposite of Barack Obama.

And Rig, your refusal to acknowledge the skill that campaign took, blaming it on bankroll, is showing you up for some kinda fool. Clinton ran her campaign into a $20M hole without pulling it off. Barack Obama's funding was a LONG way from bankrolling, and your memory lapses are really shameful for one so young. His orgnaizational talents AND his fundraising talents put the veteran Clintons to shame. How d'ya like THAT experience?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: SINSULL
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 07:13 PM

600?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 07:14 PM

a 'factual' post - at last LOL
Thanks Mary

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 07:24 PM

Good point, Amos...

Remember all those house meetings back in Iowa... They didn't cost very much money at all... Might of fact, even today Obama ain't one to go throwing money around... I know... I am the Obama team leader for voter registration in my county and I had to buy my own Obama button because we don't get them as part of what we do... That speaks volumes about Obama... Yeah, okay, he's a tad on the tight side but after 8 years of deficits maybe it's time for someone who understands fiscal responsibility... What a novel concept???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 07:28 PM

Amos post


Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 04:32 PM



sure looks like HE thinks experience is the point. How can experience NOT be important when it comes to the Democratic Presidential candidate, and reason to reject the Republican VP choice???


If you don't like her policies, Amos, fine- THAT is your choice- but to criticise her for lack of experience and NOT allow Obama's experience to be considered is about as stupid as I have ever seen you.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 07:35 PM

"How d'ya like THAT experience?"

         I'm getting used to it!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 07:45 PM

Ignore bb, Amos... This is all these guys have and it's not worth letting them control the discussion on Palin which should evolve around:

*** Creationsim v. Evolution

*** Corruption

*** The Bush tax cuts

*** The War in Iraq

*** Family Planning

*** Foriegn Policy

*** Health Care

*** Poverty

*** The Environment

*** etc...

Do not respond to BB's or any other Bushite's attempts to steer the discussion into a game of "CAT" on "experience"...

This election isn't about experience... It is about judegement and ideas...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: curmudgeon
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 07:46 PM

Since the question of experience is now all the go on this thread, will someone please enlighten me as to Senator McCain's experience. All the thrust of last nght's Republican "eloquence" seemed to be about his years as a prisoner of war. Aside from that, and his years in the senate, what exactly has he done?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 07:55 PM

One thing he has done quite a lot is travel - besides his farcial visit(s) to Iraq, where he went to market surrounded by military people and ordnance and with choppers overhead and then claiming that Iraq was now 'safe'- he did come to ANWR several years back (with Hillary Clinton) and ever since has been against drilling for oil there. Palin is FOR opening ANWR- we'll see which one convinces the other. As many times as he has flipped on other matters, I would probably bet on her.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 08:02 PM

LEt me repeat what I said concerning his and her experience levels.

Sarah Palin:
B.A. Journalism, U. Idaho.
PTA parent
Mayor of a town of 5,000
Twenty months governor of Alaska (a state with a population smaller than most mid-size american cities).
Chosen as mccain's running mate without being fully vetted

Barack Obama:
B.A. International Affairs, Columbia University,
J.D. Harvard, Magna Cum Laude
President of the Harvard Law Review, Harvard
Community Organizer, CHicago
Professor in Constitutional Law, University of Chicago,
Illinois State Senator, 8 years
U.S. Senator, 4 years, Foreign Relations, Environment and Public Works and Veterans' Affairs committees through December 2006
In January 2007, he left the Environment and Public Works committee and took additional assignments with Health, Education, Labor and Pensions and Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs.[70] He also became Chairman of the Senate's subcommittee on European Affairs.[71] As a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Obama has made official trips to Eastern Europe, the Middle East, Central Asia and Africa. Currently Democratic nominee for President of the United States. Has visited with all major european leaders including Pres. Sarkozy of France, Prime Ministers of Germany and Iraq, etc. has been fully vetted and chosen to represent his party after 25 national debates against major national political figures. fully outlined policies on education, healthcare, economy, foreign relations etc. Organized a successful upstart campaign against an entrenched favorite for the Democratic nomination and prosecuted it completely successfully.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 08:09 PM

Amos,

So you can't even read?

When you compare Obama to McCain, Obama looks like shit- so that will now have to be brought out every time you repeat the same ( according to you) meaningless list.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 08:12 PM

Amos, Amos, Amos...

Let it be, mah man... Let it be... She is too vulnerable on issues to allow a debate of "his v. hers"... It's a non issue!!! That's why the Repubs ***want*** you to do exactly what you, an others, are doing...

Let it be... The voters have allready made up their minds on the "experience issue" and it's a complete waste of time, which is ticking toward an election, to get bogged down playing the Repub's game...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 08:14 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCain

Sorry, McCain's summary is longer than the limit allowed here.

But Obama's isn't - I guess that means that Amos would say he is NOT experienced, since he keeps saying that Palin is not.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 08:16 PM

Let me put it another way...

If the Repubs can focus the debate between Obama, who is running for, ahhhhhhhh, ***president***, and Palin who may or may not be the Repub vice president candidate, then the Repubs win that debate...

Use a little discipline here, please...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 08:20 PM

If you don't like her policies, Amos, fine- THAT is your choice- but to criticise her for lack of experience and NOT allow Obama's experience to be considered is about as stupid as I have ever seen you.

Amos, you really are being an asshole- but keep it up- every post gives me more to show undecideds to get them to vote for McCain.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 08:22 PM

I did not say Palin was not experienced, ding dong. Stop putting words in my mouth. Nor did I start the "she has more experience than Obama" shtick. That was your gang. By the by, going side-by-side with Joe Biden, I suspect all her experience would leave her grabbing for leather and blind as a bat. But let it go.

McCain's "experience" does not stand up well against Obama's intelligence and polciies no matter how gristled and leathery he seems to be.

He is a warrior by breeding and by traumatic syndrome. He has the temper of a gunslinger.

Gimme a break, boyo.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 08:22 PM

So, bb...

How does McCain define "victory" in Iraq???

What does McCain think about teaching evolution???

What is Mccain plan to reduce the deficit???

We're spending the highest percentgae of our GNP on health care and rank 17th among developed nations healthiness... Waht is McCain's plan to get our population healthy???

What will McCain do if Palin is indicted before the election???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 08:33 PM

As an Alaskan, I kinda like Sarah for her ability to knock off an overaged, overdumb incumbent who shouldna been in the office. She's made herself usefula as a maverick who has alienated a lot of folks in the traditional Republican power structure.

Nevertheless, her educational background and worldview are not optimal for a national office.

I think McCain may well have been brilliant in shaking things up with her nomination, but I also think he selected someone, who, like Dan Quayle will make us all pray just a little longer and harder for the continuing good health of the President.

I think experience wise the only person in the top 4 who looks at all good is Biden.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 08:36 PM

I recall a list of very specific propositions coming from Obama during his acceptance speech.

I'd like to hear how many Ms Palin will be borrowing and emulating, particularly on energy.

And how McCain views the same topics.

So far, it looks like Obama is ready to solve problems thast McCain hasn't even noticed yet.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 08:43 PM

That article about the women governors is not documentation of Palin having worked to eliminate either corruption or pork in her state. It's a puff piece about women in power, and it repeats all of the same talking points that have already been proven false. In the absence of any articles that talk about what she actually did, with whom, and when, that were written at the time the events were supposed to have taken place, I don't think there is any reason for us to believe that she in fact really did work to eliminate corruption in the state of Alaska.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: curmudgeon
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 08:47 PM

My question is still unanswered. I went to Bb's link and learbed that McCain was graduated near the bottom of his class at Annapolis. He served in the Navy. He was a POW. He spent many years as a congressman/senator.

Now, what the fuck has he done? Being in Congress is not a qualification for anything. Look at the lot who've been doing that.

Administrative experience? Where and when?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 08:53 PM

Peggy Noonan comments on the choice of Palin.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 09:00 PM

:-0


Peggy Noonan said "bullshit".


;-P

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 09:22 PM

I jusr went in to the TV room, listened to Romney for 5 minutes and duducted that I would rip him a new one in any college debate, national debate or street fight... I thought he was supposed to be intellegent??? Thought wrong, I guess...

Here the Repubs are tryin' to act as if it were the Dems who controlled the White House and Congress for the last 8 years???

The guy must have been in a coma since 2000!!!

I mean, what a lightweight...

Geeze, can't wait for Palin"stein"'s address... If she's half as smart as Romney then the two of them wouldn't have the I.Q. equal to that of a box of animal crackers...

I mean it... Romney is borderline stupid...

Bobert

P.S. Wahts is the Rpubs answer to every problem in the world???

































"Drill it"???

Man, geeze oh pete... I think someone been doin' a little head drillin' on thse folks...

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Sorcha
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 09:25 PM

14 pages now. Yawn. I can hear all this elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 09:31 PM

"Administrative experience? Where and when? "


My comment exactly- about Obama.


I guess Senate staff and Presidential campaigns DON'T count as valid experience, then.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 09:32 PM

Whoever is speaking now is calling for "change." Hmmmm....isn't that what we Dems said last week?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 09:40 PM

We've had 'experience'..now let's try integrity....Hmmmm, who would that be???.............flip a coin?
I don't think any of us can say who is more honest that the next one...
oh, I know, we'll take THEIR word for it...and cross our fingers, and hope they're not lying to us, AGAIN!
'No new taxes'......'I never had sex with that woman'...'WMD's in Iraq..
and yes, elect me and the economy will be in great shape, and free medical, and blah blah blah......meanwhile back at the ranch, our liberty is being stripped away, while the simple-mind peasants argue over small potato bullshit....sound familiar????

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 09:46 PM

This guy's real creative:

Mr. Giuliani, the former New York City mayor, began making the argument early Wednesday. "Barack Obama has never governed a city, never governed a state, never governed an agency, never run a military unit, never run anything," Mr. Giuliani said on the CBS "Early Show" in an interview the McCain campaign sent to reporters.

If his formulation sounded a little familiar, it is because it was one of the few criticisms that Mr. Giuliani aimed at Mr. McCain during the heat of their primary fight, saying that he had "never run a city, never run a state, never run a government."

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 09:51 PM

For the record...

John McCain's executive experience???

Zero!!! Like, nada... Zip... None...

End of expereince debate... It is completely stupid...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 09:53 PM

He was a senior officer in the Navy!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 10:06 PM

For the record...

Barack Obama's executive experience???

Zero!!! Like, nada... Zip... None...





For the record...

Joe Biden's executive experience???

"Prior to his election to the Senate, Biden practiced law in Wilmington, Delaware and served on the New Castle County Council from 1970 to 1972. "

Zero!!! Like, nada... Zip... None...

End of expereince debate... It is completely stupid...

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 10:48 PM

She's speaking now--it's kind of like listening to BBC's Simple English on their short wave broadcasts.

Ugg.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 10:51 PM

I dunno about her English ... but I'm impressed with what she's saying and her track record.

She's certainly not the washington elite.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: SINSULL
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 10:51 PM

I tried. I genuinely tried. I can't last another minute -a cross between Elaine Benes and Friends. Her daughter's to be looks like a deer caught in the headlights.That poor baby is being tossed from one relative to another as a prop. Spit on his hair - nice touch.

Lee Harvey, where are you now that we need you????

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 10:53 PM

"Lee Harvey, where are you now that we need you???? "

Sick statement.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 11:26 PM

I watched the last fifteen minutes of 9-11iani, and the first 20 of Sarah. She's just what they need as a supporter--nice smile, good articulation, knows how to sound tough but matronly, and so on. Not particularly honest, not at all inspiring, but she'll do to hold up the columns.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 11:28 PM

If your small town U.S.A ... she is a very inspiring.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 11:48 PM

"...dangerous role model". She is, in fact. She makes it look easy to take care of a Downs syndrome child and a 17-year-old unmarried mother. Might make others think it's not hard.

I've had no experience with either, but I would be pretty sure that for most families either one--let alone both-- would be a real problem, to say the least. And should not be encouraged. Most families would not have $200,000 plus annual income--and many people dying to do you favors.

And I know 18-year old couples can make marriage work--but the odds are strongly against it. It's hard enough later on.



Re:    Sarah against corruption: she has in fact in Alaska taken on some of the corrupt Republicans running the state--and won. It's not hard to find evidence--as I said, her time at the gas and oil committee is a case in point.

The appeal of that cannot be ignored. Don't underestimate her.



As I've also said, she is on the wrong side of virtually every social issue.   

I've run across evidence, for instance, that as mayor, she tried to force a librarian in her town to remove certain books from the library. Any confirmation of that?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 11:52 PM

LOL

McCain included Palin in his "Pork Lists" - lists of government officials who are guilty of abusing earmarks...


"WASILLA, ALASKA - For much of his long career in Washington, John McCain has been throwing darts at the special spending system known as earmarking, through which powerful members of Congress can deliver federal cash for pet projects back home with little or no public scrutiny. He's even gone so far as to publish "pork lists" detailing these financial favors.

Three times in recent years, McCain's catalogs of "objectionable" spending have included earmarks for this small Alaska town, requested by its mayor at the time -- Sarah Palin.

Now, McCain, the likely Republican presidential nominee, has chosen Palin as his running mate, touting her as a reformer just like him.

McCain has made opposition to pork-barrel spending a central theme of his 2008 campaign. "Earmarking deprives federal agencies of scarce resources, at the whim of individual members of Congress," McCain has said.

But records show that Palin -- first as mayor of Wasilla and recently as governor of Alaska -- was far from shy about pursuing tens of millions in earmarks for her town, her region and her state.

This year, Palin, who has been governor for nearly 22 months, defended earmarking as a vital part of the legislative system. "The federal budget, in its various manifestations, is incredibly important to us, and congressional earmarks are one aspect of this relationship," she wrote in a newspaper column.

In 2001, McCain's list of spending that had been approved without the normal budget scrutiny included a $500,000 earmark for a public transportation project in Wasilla. The Arizona senator targeted $1 million in a 2002 spending bill for an emergency communications center in town -- one that local law enforcement has said is redundant and creates confusion.

McCain also criticized $450,000 set aside for an agricultural processing facility in Wasilla that was requested during Palin's tenure as mayor and cleared Congress soon after she left office in 2002. The funding was provided to help direct locally grown produce to schools, prisons and other government institutions, according to Taxpayers for Common Sense, a nonpartisan watchdog group.

Wasilla received $11.9 million in earmarks from 2000 to 2003. The results of this spending are very apparent today. (The town also benefited from $15 million in federal funds to promote regional rail transportation.)

The community transit center is a landmark: a one-story, tile-fronted building with a drive-through garage. Its fleet of 10 buses provides service throughout the region. Mat-Su Community Transit Agency officials say the building was made possible with a combination of federal money and matching gifts from a private foundation.

Taylor Griffin, a McCain campaign spokesman, said that when Palin became mayor in 1996, "she faced a system that was broken. Small towns like Wasilla in Alaska depended on earmarks to take care of basic needs. . . . That was something that Gov. Palin was alarmed about and was one of the formative experiences that led her toward the reform-oriented stance that she has taken as her career has progressed."

Palin, he said, was "disgusted" that small towns like hers were dependent on earmarks.

Public records paint a different picture:

Wasilla had received few if any earmarks before Palin became mayor. She actively sought federal funds -- a campaign that began to pay off only after she hired a lobbyist with close ties to Sen. Ted Stevens (R-Alaska), who long controlled federal spending as chairman of the Senate Appropriations Committee. He made funneling money to Alaska his hallmark.

Steven Silver was a former chief of staff for Stevens. After he was hired, Wasilla obtained funding for several projects in 2002, including an additional $600,000 in transportation funding.

That year, a local water and sewer project received $1.5 million, according to Taxpayers for Common Sense, which combs federal spending measures to identify projects inserted by congressional members.

When Palin spoke after McCain introduced her as his running mate at a rally in Ohio last week, she made fun of earmarking. She said she had rejected $223 million in federal funds for a bridge linking Ketchikan to an island with an airport and 50 residents, referring to it by its derogatory label: the "bridge to nowhere."

In the nationally televised speech, she stood by McCain and said, "I've championed reform to end the abuses of earmark spending by Congress. In fact, I told Congress thanks, but no thanks, on that bridge to nowhere. If our state wanted a bridge, I said, we'd build it ourselves."

However, as a candidate for governor in 2006, Palin had backed funding for the bridge. After her election, she killed the much-ridiculed project when it became clear the state had other priorities. She said she would use the federal funds to fill those needs.

This year she submitted to Congress a list of Alaska projects worth $197.8 million, including $2 million to research crab productivity in the Bering Sea and $7.4 million to improve runway lighting at eight Alaska airports. A spokesman said she cut the original list of 54 projects to 31.

"So while Sen. McCain was going after cutting earmarks in Washington," said Steve Ellis of Taxpayers for Common Sense, "Gov. Palin was going after getting earmarks."


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/la-na-earmarks3-2008sep03,0,5932587.story

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 11:57 PM

TIME magazine had this to say about the banning of books and Palin:

Time Article:

John Stein, former Alaskian mayor, "says that as mayor, Palin continued to inject religious beliefs into her policy at times. 'She asked the library how she could go about banning books,' he says, because some voters thought they had inappropriate language in them. 'The librarian was aghast.' That woman, Mary Ellen Baker, couldn't be reached for comment, but news reports from the time show that Palin had threatened to fire Baker for not giving 'full support' to the mayor.

Looks as though her own step-mother-in-law might not be voting for her, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 12:00 AM

Since the person who is making the claim that Palin took on the corrupt Republicans running her state has hounded me all over the Mudcat demanding that I provide documentation for my assertions (and even for arguments I have not even made), I think it is perfectly reasonable for me to expect this person to provide documentation for their assertions. If this person does not do so, we will all know how much credibility they have when they demand documentation and evidence from others (which is to say, exactly no credibility whatever).

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 12:02 AM

family bickering ...and we all have a family.

But then, not all of us are from a small town.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 12:11 AM

I wouldn't want to be Joe Biden!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 12:13 AM

I've run across evidence, for instance, that as mayor, she tried to force a librarian in her town to remove certain books from the library. Any confirmation of that?

No. They discussed it on NPR this morning--said she discussed the books she disapproved of with a librarian, but the books weren't removed. Good for that librarian!

That said, I am so under-whelmed by this woman and the role they have suggested she should fill. The entire state population wouldn't fill the county I live in in Texas. They expect Americans to buy into a leap from small town politics and a short run of sparse state political office to something as comprehensive as vice president with, based upon a BA in journalism and bragging rights as a hockey mom. She has been mayor of a postage stamp sized town and spent less time as governor than it generally takes to go through community college to get an associates degree. In the school of life outside the home she is woefully under-educated.

Alaska facts.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 12:15 AM

Why do you think Sarah resigned from the oil and gas committee in Jan 2004? And what happened to her target after that? Time for you to do some research. It's not hard. She has in fact gone after corruption in the Alaska Republican party. Why is that so hard for you to admit?   Does everything have to be black and white for you to be comfortable?

She's on the wrong side of virtually every issue--but has still attacked corruption in the Republican party.

People--even politicians--can be complex creatures.

And if somebody prefers not to be "hounded", the poster always has the option to actually check facts--before hitting "send". Then there wouldn't be so many words to swallow.

Just a bit of friendly counsel.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 12:16 AM

Evidence and documentation, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 12:17 AM

Then there is in fact confirmation that Sarah tried to force the librarian to remove books. So the answer is "yes", not "no".

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 12:18 AM

Evidence and documentation please.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 12:21 AM

Or maybe it's not possible to provide any evidence and documentation for the assertion that Palin was fighting corruption because somebody didn't actually check their "facts" before hitting submit.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 12:28 AM

Probably the best part of her whole speech was when she highlighted Oh Bummer talking nice to the people in Pennsylvania, and then going to San Francisco and bad-mouthing them.
She had all kinds of documentation.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 12:33 AM

Joe Biden would run circles around her. HEr presentation is all a studied imitation of genuineness. She lies too readily not to get caught out. And she's too quick on the draw, like a young gunslinger wanting to call out his betters.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 12:48 AM

Well, well, well! As Amos points out that she is lying...that may, or may not be true..time will tell..but, in her speech, and her appeal, she blew everyone away...McCain, Obama, and Biden! (as for myself, I'm extremely wary of anything that falls from a politician's mouth, during a campaign, and distrust most of them, once they are in office)...
But, in the meantime, tonight, she kicked ass and took names!...and surely made Obama look like a shallow fool. I think the more the Democrats hate her, is only indication of how scared they are of her..because I'm sure they must recognize that she is every bit as good at public speaking as Obama, but in a different style. I recognize Obama, as being good, though I think he's full of himself, and generally full of 'it'..and in honesty, you have to hand it to, Palin, for the same! We'll have to see how she holds out, or caves in....hey, look out Obama-ites, this woman might just bite you on the nose!(or other body part), and rip you a new one!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 01:10 AM

I just found her scary. Really, I dunno what was scarier-- her, or the wildly enthusisastic reception she got from the floor.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Barry Finn
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 01:22 AM

Just in time for the election
"God will be coming to US from Alaska" on prime time! No commericals!

I'm beginning to feel as if it weren't for God & "God fearing folks" this nation would be just fine & upright on it's own. I don't understand why the republicans keep needing "God" to be part of the President's administration???? They lie, cheat, rain death & destruction & can't figure out what's right & wrong unless it comes from a thundering voice on high. I keep fearing these "Godly folks" will someday elect a Pope on the basis of an old New England saying that goes something like this: "the Lowells only talk to the Cabots and the Cabots only talk to God." Cross out Cabots & Lowells & insert Bush & Palin. It seems that if you want to be a serious canadate that someone one's mate ought to have a pipeline to the Almighty. They gotta have a minister preside over conferences, pretty soon it's gonna resemble a crowning complete with a Bishop with all the dressings & the crown.
But we aren't in Iraq on a holy war or a holy mission or are we, is oil the new Holy Grail. Do we really need to get rid of God's dumb animals like the wolf & the bear so we can drill a hole to hell?

Talk about dumbing down the campain. Now little Miss Shara of the Frozen Flame Sahara with just her "Hockey Mom" apple pie persona & a cutisy lowely BA in Jounralism is showing how one can insult intellegience & be cheered on by a bunch of buffons. Twice now today, once by the Huckster & once by McDunce. Both mentioned that the nation needs someone with, what was it "good common sense" or "reasoning" & then Hucky said "if we wanted someone with intellegence we'd go to Harvard & pick the brightest from there brightest" we'll we would like some one with intellegence for a change, thank you, please. Now I don't know if the Huckster knows if Obama graduated top in his class from Harvard but he's an idiot if he made that statement & didn't know, very likely he's an idiot but that doesn't matter if you got religion. McBain should've known better but then we're not looking for the republicans to present US with anyone that has a high degree of?????????,,whatever! Come to think of it the last time we had a president with an IQ over 100 he was a Democrate & the nation wasn't at war & it wasn't being foreclosed on either but the last 2 presidents with an IQ under 100 both were related, both were republicans, both had US in wars & the economy sucked, we voted on religious basis instead of intellegence. So what's so bad about voting for intellegence this time? What's so bad about peace, love & a bit of understaning. So what's wrong with the picture they're trying to paint about smart people?

I watched parts of the RNC & thought "I'm at a Sunday pre-school church rally", a really "feel good" type down home gathering, a slap each other on the back party & tell everybody how for the past 8 yrs we've not had a hand in anything that went wrong, it was the other guys that weren't in office that fuck up everything. I couldn't believe what I was hearing. If you pray, pray that we don't get saddled with the likes of this extreme right winded dinged bat fanatical barn breeding fur burning oil drinking cattle prodding shit slinging bunch of side tramps that think the rest of us just rode into town on the turnip truck.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: DougR
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 01:47 AM

Amos: "Joe Biden WOULD run circles around her" Time will tell, my friend.

It's interesting to me that so many women have been so anxious to see a woman elected to a responsible national position but when it becomes possible, that's really not what they want at all. They only want a LIBERAL woman to be elected to such a position. Is there a bit of hypocrisy there or what?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 01:52 AM

Doug, I believe the women you are talking about, resent her, because she represents a woman with 'traditional' values, rather than that of a ball-cutting bitch(Hillary-types)...and for that, they are jealous!
ewwww, I'll catch it now!!...who cares?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 01:53 AM

I didn't want Hillary, and I don't want Palin. It's not about gender. It's about each individual candidate and what they would bring to the job of president and/or vice president.

On the other hand, I definitely would consider voting for Elizabeth Kucinich for vice president (as Dennis' running mate).

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Barry Finn
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 01:54 AM

No Doug, weither a man or a woman, if it's a republican, it's not exceptable.

Barry for Obama

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 02:06 AM

CarolC, I don't know much about Mrs. Kucinich, but in regards to her husband..I think he may be a better man, than the media let out, about him. Same with Dan Burton, Ron Paul, Bob Barr, and a few others, that the 'news' media kept from getting exposure, during the early primaries.
(Probably, because they had something REAL, to bring to the public's attention.) Hey, Good morning, Carol...

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 02:40 AM

Elizabeth Kucinich

Dennis Kucinich

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 02:51 AM

"I've run across evidence, for instance, that as mayor, she tried to force a librarian in her town to remove certain books from the library. Any confirmation of that?" Ron Davies

Yes, it is true. The documentation is not hard to find. But, you understand, she asked it only in "a rhetorical sense". enquote

"Really, I dunno what was scarier-- her, or the wildly enthusisastic reception she got from the floor." WYSIWYG

Isn't that the truth. If the audience and the speaker had been dressed differently I could have believed that the event and the reaction were from a different time and place...

"It's interesting to me that so many women have been so anxious to see a woman elected to a responsible national position but when it becomes possible, that's really not what they want at all. They only want a LIBERAL woman to be elected to such a position. Is there a bit of hypocrisy there or what?" DougR

Doug, you don't have much respect for women, do you. Why on earth would you believe that the only thing that mattered to women was that the nominee be female? We- and I am more generous than you for I include men in this - want someone who is qualified, someone who will lead this nation in the direction it should go, someone with intelligence, someone who understands the mess we are in, someone who will command respect and good will from other leaders and will extend it to them in return.

I listened to most of Palin's speech- sorry, couldn't stomach all of it. Let me say that in my opinion it was a mean, pandering effort. Before this, except for certain parts of her record in Alaska, I wasn't particularly anti-Palin, I had no dog in the hunt.

But tonight my belief is that she is capable of doing anything Karl Rove and Rush Limbaugh can think up.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 04:08 AM

Well, I gotta say that Palin gave a great speech. I'm not sure I agreed with a lot of it, but it was a good speech and well-delivered, and it was obvious that she had a good time giving it.
Well done, Sarah.
But I'm still voting for Obama.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: irishenglish
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 07:33 AM

Ok, now I have seen her give a speech. I thought there was no substance, just a lot of fluff. I thought, despite the crowd's urging, her speech was flat and extremely well rehearsed. I was not convinced that she had much to say for herself, except when talking about her family. I think Biden is up for this, and will challenge her, not necessarily on her record, but on what she would do if she were VP.I thought her actual points about Obama were simplistic exaggerations. Her condemnation of his energy proposals, and the oft repeated-He will meeet face to face with terrorists charge were just flat.

Also, don't be fooled now that the Republicans have (despite what we thought would be a lack of using the experience argument earlier in this thread) got an ace up their sleeve. The Daily Show last night had two clips-one of Karl Rove lambasting the experience of Tim Kane, saying, no offense, but being mayor of Richmond, Lieut. Gov, etc was not sufficient executive experience, while just days ago, saying that a small town Alaska mayor and governor was more than qualified for being VP. As they used to say on That 70's Show-BURN!
Total contradiction, but hey, it is Karl Rove.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 07:42 AM

Biden v. Palin???

Well, the way the Repubs are running from issues there will come a time when there is no place to run...

David Gregory made a good point last night on MSNBC that the real campaign is going to take shape in the debates and I couldn't agree more...

At some point in time both McElusive and McPalin will have to quit the running and become stationary targets... That is when both are going to lose big time...

Biden is on the correct side of the issues and McPalin isn't...

The American people don't want more income disparity, evolution being banned from schools, endless wars, a sabre rattling foriegn policy, an energy policy written by oilmen, healthcare that is not affordable and partisanship... McCain and McPalin represent those policies...

I've hate to have to play their hand even if the rightest of the right wing is happy with those positions...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 08:01 AM

more Sarah Palin photos
Fake!
Real

I'm sure some of you will find this more fodder for your amusement but what would be your reaction if Michelle Obama was photoshopped in this way?

I did listen to the speech on world radio by the way and, as a Brit, found the reception given to her speech every bit as as 'scary' as those at the Democratic convention.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Dani
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 08:15 AM

(*&^ it, I'm voting for Barry Finn.

Dani

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 08:21 AM

Well, I also found what I heard of the speech to be delivered in a flat, monotone style... Not exactly a firebrand...

But the speech by Romney was the more telling of the Repub strategy and one that could very easily backfire on them... He railed against "liberals", "the media" and the "eastern establishment"... This theme goes back to Daddy Bush and has been used effectively by both Jeb and George... The problem is that, IMO, this 2 decade old trick of trying to shift blame for failure on regions of the country, educated people and the media is stale and vulnerable...

I mean, if I am Obama, I use Romney's words in the first debate against the Repubs... Here's how he does it: "We've had two decades of the Republcans coming before the America people trying to shift the blame of their own failures onto educated people, the media and the folks who live on the east and west coasts. And here we are again with these same worn out and divisive Republican tactics while the American people are suffering from stagnant wages and unaffordable health care. I believe it's time that the Republican party live some of that personal responsibility that they have been preaching for the last 20 years..."

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: SINSULL
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 08:29 AM

DougR - I would not have voted for Hillary Clinton as VP or President. I don't want a woman in the White House; I want a president I can respect. It is not asking much but it's been a while, hasn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 08:44 AM

I note the number of that last post was 666.

Somehow that seems to be consistent with the sentiments expressed: "I don't want a woman in the White House; I want a president I can respect."

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: MaineDog
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 08:55 AM

I don't think she will attract the most conservative of the religious right for several reasons:
1) she is a woman. This disqualifies her for leadership
2) her household is not in order (minor child misbehavior). This disqualifies her for leadership.
3) her pro-life position may not useful to them unless she becomes president.
We'll see.
MD

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 08:55 AM

Palin was very effective as an attack dog yesterday evening, and should not be underestimated in the future.

The fact that she is a woman is one reason she was picked, to appeal to some independent or alienated Democratic voters. However, her sex doesn't explain her politics or policy priorities. Neither does the fact that she was mayor of a small town (actually a town which has shrunk in population from 8500 to 5000 in this thread); small towns, like large towns, have a variety of political residents but some people do like to generalize.

I love the negative generalization by McKain about politicians who graduate from elite colleges and universities. Would he make an exception for GWB, an undistinguished graduate of Yale? But again what a stupid criteria to use in a public forum for characterizing a politician's qualifications for leadership. Is McKain suggesting that the Republican party rename itself the Know-Nuthin' Party? Again, I expect, it is another Karl Rove programed appeal to the so-called blue collar voters. Well, such appeals worked well enough in 2000 and 2004 to "win" the elections. Let's hope and work hard enough so they don't get away with it again.

I have to admit that McKain's "desperate" choice for a Vice Presidential running mate appears to have been a good one, at least better than she initially appeared. I can hardly wait for the film version of "Mrs. Palin Cleans up Washington"!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 09:02 AM

This theme goes back to Daddy Bush and has been used effectively by both Jeb and George...

No, it goes back to the saintly 'Great Prestigitator', Ronnie Ray-Gun, the U.S.'s first senile chief executive since the last days of Woodrow Wilson.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 09:07 AM

It seemed to me that you could tell the parts that were scripted and the parts that were her own material. I thought her own stuff was better, and that's what Biden has to look forward to in the VP debate. I suspect he's a little nervous.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 09:43 AM

I think one of the problems we have in this election, is that the two supposedly different parties are running candidates that are both, too far to the right, or too far to the left..with nothing much in the center. Put that together with all the inexperience, and celebrity-like
hoopla, and we get the emotion packed nothing, that leaves most Americans frustrated and disappointed, and non Americans laughing at our buffoonery.
None the less, it was a great performance. Now can we get on with some patriotic American leadership???

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 09:47 AM

From Googling 'Wasilla AK'

"According to the census bureau, the definitive source of US population figures, the last census tally, in 2000, revealed a population of 5,469. The bureau's 2007 population estimate, which I cited in my story, had the town at 9,780 residents. The difference between the two figures is huge, approximately 79% growth, but there is no disputing it's a small town, approximately one twentieth the size of Barack Obama's Illinois state senate district."

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 09:53 AM

Good morning, Ebbie
Being as you are an Alaskan, or at least live there...How was Palin, as governor?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 09:56 AM

Left? You're suggesting that Obama or Biden are left?   Good grief.

Tricky thing for Biden in any debates with Palin is that, if he comes on heavy, he's a bullying swine and no gentleman. If he doesn't he's a patronising MCP.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 10:06 AM

The Republicans are throwing out labels as fast as they can, trying to find something that sticks with the portion of the American population who are registered to vote but who can't be troubled to actually learn anything about the facts of their candidates. Find a catchy slogan and they'll remember that at the ballot box.

This nonsense of "angry liberals" is one of those labels--trying to characterize the anger as an idiopathic aspect of the Democratic party, attempting to surgically remove it from the source--the ill-considered acts of Dubya in his presidency.

The experience question is never going to be resolved if you try to slap it on a scale and weigh it. The ability to think is what makes the difference. Qualitatively, Palin is a joke, and the disingenuous Miss Alaska speech last night doesn't make me feel secure, should McCain's melanoma come back and take him out. Do you want Palin to be the one to answer that call at 3am? I don't think so!

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 10:19 AM

DougR, do you vote for a man just because he has a penis?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 10:21 AM

I heard a lot of lies and nothing of substance. Notice how all the insiders claim to not be from the inside AND have tried to co-op the Dems call for "change" etc., etc.? They made it sound as if McCain never was in DC yet single-handedly brought about miraculous change and the past eight years have been WONDERFUL, but wait, not really because the Dems are in charge by 1-2 votes for the past couple of years.

Arrgghhh...she looks good, sounds good, and can present herself, but that was to the party loyals. When she gets out there and has to wing it against Biden, etc. I don't think she will be able to hold it together. If she weren't a social extremist, I might even like her and she does have good looking kids. Having been a pregnant teen I felt very sorry for her dau. and his boyfriend...it must seem a bit like a scarlet letter to have to stand up there for all the world to see. It reminds me of the shaming some churches would/do practice against kids who get in the "family way." I've seen it and it is ugly, hateful, and twisted.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 10:22 AM

Obama would be way out in left field, if it wasn't for religion--maybe it's something he picked up in a 12 step program, or something--but McCain is pretty centrist. Palin is far right.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 10:29 AM

And now we know why Rig isn't working on the Sunday morning news magazines--delusional doesn't go over well. McCain as centrist? No way. :-/

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 10:38 AM

"Speaking before an audience that knew little about her or her state, Palin used the opportunity to spin some Alaska issues in ways that would likely be well received by Republicans elsewhere.

"I protected the taxpayers by vetoing wasteful spending," she said, claiming credit for nearly half a billion dollars in vetoes.
The audience loved it, but in reality Alaska has essentially no taxes to protect the people from. And in Palin's time as governor, spending and the budget shot up dramatically as oil money came gushing in.

"Republicans who love cutting government jobs cheered when Palin said she drove herself to work and laid off the Governor's Mansion chef.

"I thought I could muddle through without the governor's personal chef," she said, though her children didn't always like the idea.
Those in Juneau know another reason for the dismissal: Palin mostly lives in Wasilla, not the capital, and there's little for the chef to do.

Ebbie: The governor's "mansion" (Not. It is only a large, nice house) is less than four (4) blocks from where she works. She drives? Previous governors did not.   

"Palin also bragged about putting the state's jet - the controversial acquisition of former Gov. Frank Murkowski that likely played a large role in Palin's becoming governor - up for sale on eBay. She didn't mention that when it failed to sell, she sold it the way most such aircraft are sold - through a commissioned broker.

"Palin joins McCain in running as a Washington, D.C., outsider and reformer, based in party on her challenging a culture of corruption within her own party in Alaska. "We put the government of our state back on the side of the people," she said.

"While even Palin's ideological opponents in Alaska acknowledge Palin's strong ethical stands, Palin failed to mention that her ethics reforms were successful only after the revelation of a U.S. Department of Justice investigation that has sent numerous legislators, lobbyists and oil executives on their way to prison.

http://www.juneauempire.com/stories/090408/sta_328511816.shtml

Incidentally, the governor's laying off of household staff (not just the chef) has consequences. These are all state workers who work under procedural rules regarding hiring, firing and layoffs.

Traditionally the govenor holds an Open House during the Christmas season. Long lines snake down the sidewalk for several blocks and Governor's staff parade up and down the line delivering coffee and hot chocolate in the bitter cold.

Staff, traditionally, start baking cookies two months before the day making and freezing 24,000 cookies for the event.

Last year Governor Palin hired a private contractor, Larraine Derr, to make the cookies. It cost thousands. (Still cheaper than keeping people on staff, I grant you, but the ambiance is gone.)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 10:39 AM

First of all, I find GUEST from Sanity's posts to reflect GOP partisanship... Yeah, he or she tries to sound like an independent but seems more willing to take up the Repub talking points as if they are factual, which they are not...

Second, and this is a shocker:

Straight talk isn't what we are getting out of either McCain or McCalin when it comes to earmarks... Remember the "Bridge to Nowhere"??? Well, Palin pushed for it until it was apparent that the politics had turned against it...

Oh, the shocker, you might ask???

Well according to NPR this morning, Alaska still got to ******keep***** the entire $223M in federal dollars for the "Bridge to Nowhere"!!!! Yeah, we don't hear Palin apologiozing for bilking the US taxpayers out of $223,000,000.00!!!

She is a hypocrit and so is John McHypocrit for selecting another good 'ol boy with her hands so deep in my pockets that she should be ashamed to get up on heer soapbox and spew lies... They ougghtta hook up a poligraph meter to the microphone at the Repub Convention so that the casual observers would see for themselvers the outright lies that are being slung by these crooks...

Yes, that was ************$223,000,000.00***************!!!

Thieves...and worse...lieing thieves...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 10:40 AM

Not to over-emphasize the point, but why have none of the major media pointed out that she was lying to the public through her teeth during her acceptance speech?

In 2006 she said in a different sort of speech, "God bless" the state's congressional lobbyiong team for their success in bringing home such fine earmarks.

She supported the Bridge in 2006, too. The picture she painted in hat speech was just disingenuous fabrication.

Ptui.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 10:46 AM

PALIN: "I have protected the taxpayers by vetoing wasteful spending ... and championed reform to end the abuses of earmark spending by Congress. I told the Congress 'thanks but no thanks' for that Bridge to Nowhere."

THE FACTS: As mayor of Wasilla, Palin hired a lobbyist and traveled to Washington annually to support earmarks for the town totaling $27 million. In her two years as governor, Alaska has requested nearly $750 million in special federal spending, by far the largest per-capita request in the nation. While Palin notes she rejected plans to build a $398 million bridge from Ketchikan to an island with 50 residents and an airport, that opposition came only after the plan was ridiculed nationally as a "bridge to nowhere.

Remember too, that when she brags about AK having a surplus budget, she omits to mention how many millions of Federal dollars are part of that; the bridge earmarks went back into AK's general fund.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 10:50 AM

Yeah, this lady has lived for earmarks... They oughtta rename her "Earmarks Palin"...

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 10:52 AM

PALIN: "There is much to like and admire about our opponent. But listening to him speak, it's easy to forget that this is a man who has authored two memoirs but not a single major law or reform _ not even in the state senate."

THE FACTS: Compared to McCain and his two decades in the Senate, Obama does have a more meager record. But he has worked with Republicans to pass legislation that expanded efforts to intercept illegal shipments of weapons of mass destruction and to help destroy conventional weapons stockpiles. The legislation became law last year. To demean that accomplishment would be to also demean the work of Republican Sen. Richard Lugar of Indiana, a respected foreign policy voice in the Senate. In Illinois, he was the leader on two big, contentious measures in Illinois: studying racial profiling by police and requiring recordings of interrogations in potential death penalty cases. He also successfully co-sponsored major ethics reform legislation.

PALIN: "The Democratic nominee for president supports plans to raise income taxes, raise payroll taxes, raise investment income taxes, raise the death tax, raise business taxes, and increase the tax burden on the American people by hundreds of billions of dollars."

THE FACTS: The Tax Policy Center, a think tank run jointly by the Brookings Institution and the Urban Institute, concluded that Obama's plan would increase after-tax income for middle-income taxpayers by about 5 percent by 2012, or nearly $2,200 annually. McCain's plan, which cuts taxes across all income levels, would raise after tax-income for middle-income taxpayers by 3 percent, the center concluded.

Obama would provide $80 billion in tax breaks, mainly for poor workers and the elderly, including tripling the Earned Income Tax Credit for minimum-wage workers and higher credits for larger families.

He also would raise income taxes, capital gains and dividend taxes on the wealthiest. He would raise payroll taxes on taxpayers with incomes above $250,000, and he would raise corporate taxes. Small businesses that make more than $250,000 a year would see taxes rise.

MCCAIN: "She's been governor of our largest state, in charge of 20 percent of America's energy supply ... She's responsible for 20 percent of the nation's energy supply. I'm entertained by the comparison and I hope we can keep making that comparison that running a political campaign is somehow comparable to being the executive of the largest state in America," he said in an interview with ABC News' Charles Gibson.

THE FACTS: McCain's phrasing exaggerates both claims. Palin is governor of a state that ranks second nationally in crude oil production, but she's no more "responsible" for that resource than President Bush was when he was governor of Texas, another oil-producing state. In fact, her primary power is the ability to tax oil, which she did in concert with the Alaska Legislature. And where Alaska is the largest state in America, McCain could as easily have called it the 47th largest state _ by population.

MCCAIN: "She's the commander of the Alaska National Guard. ... She has been in charge, and she has had national security as one of her primary responsibilities," he said on ABC.

THE FACTS: While governors are in charge of their state guard units, that authority ends whenever those units are called to actual military service. When guard units are deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan, for example, they assume those duties under "federal status," which means they report to the Defense Department, not their governors. Alaska's national guard units have a total of about 4,200 personnel, among the smallest of state guard organizations.

FORMER ARKANSAS GOV. MIKE HUCKABEE: Palin "got more votes running for mayor of Wasilla, Alaska than Joe Biden got running for president of the United States."

THE FACTS: A whopper. Palin got 616 votes in the 1996 mayor's election, and got 909 in her 1999 re-election race, for a total of 1,525. Biden dropped out of the race after the Iowa caucuses, but he still got 76,165 votes in 23 states and the District of Columbia where he was on the ballot during the 2008 presidential primaries.

FORMER MASSACHUSETTS GOV. MITT ROMNEY: "We need change, all right _ change from a liberal Washington to a conservative Washington! We have a prescription for every American who wants change in Washington _ throw out the big-government liberals, and elect John McCain and Sarah Palin."

THE FACTS: A Back-to-the-Future moment. George W. Bush, a conservative Republican, has been president for nearly eight years. And until last year, Republicans controlled Congress. Only since January 2007 have Democrats have been in charge of the House and Senate.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Acorn4
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 10:53 AM

From Today's "Daily Mirror".

Sarah Palin: She ticks every box in the "Neo-Con book" and then some

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Acorn4
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 10:58 AM

Sorry, licky doesn't seem to want to work. Here is the article by Brian Reade in today's "Daily Mirror":-

Sarah Palin: She ticks every box in the "Neo-Con book" and then some
By Brian Reade 4/09/2008
Taking an interest in British politics may seem as pointless as giving a manic depressive a 10-year subscription to Suicide Monthly, but it could be worse.
Imagine if your mum or gran had swooned at a GI's offer of some nylons in the 40s and you were now watching your country's Presidential election on the TV over a box of Dunkin' Donuts propped on your 56in gut.
Imagine witnessing a people incapable of letting a politician start a sentence without thumping their left nipple and weeping, or end a sentence without shrieking like a boyband groupie who's just stood on a nail.
How could you take seriously big business pumping billions of dollars into the coffers of political puppets schooled to say nothing controversial, just words like "choice" and "change"?
It's bad enough watching Democrats con themselves into believing that if a black First Lady gets to choose the White House drapes the world will be turned on its head.
But the Republicans have truly exposed the American electoral system for the sham it is. Has a more frightening political photofit than Sarah Palin ever been manufactured by spin doctors?
She ticks every box in the Neo-Con book and then some. She could not be more of an evangelical right-winger if she banged her tambourine on a white hood.
Advertisement - article continues below »
She's a gun fanatic who is a lifetime member of the National Rifle Association. An abortion-hater, who has five kids. A God-fearing Christian who backs teaching creationism in schools. A hardnosed careerist who was so driven at school they called her Sarah Barracuda. An unflinching patriot whose soldier son Track (like siblings Trig, Bristol, Willow and Piper, given a dog name in best redneck tradition) may soon be fighting for Uncle Sam in Iraq.
The Miss Congeniality beauty pageant runner-up who married her high school Action Man and turned hockey mom is aimed at the hearts of all-American women. Not to mention the loins of all-American men, due to looking like a secretary strip-a-gram who, once the door's shut, will lose the glasses and straddle you.
The fact that she's done nothing but govern, for five minutes, a state with the same population as Bristol (that's the city, not her daughter) is irrelevant.
Her inexperience like her skeletons have been ignored because, sat next to the grey pensioner John McCain, they look like a Fox News anchor team. The sage and the eyecandy. Reassuring and homely.
And here, in a nutshell, is the pointlessness of the race for the White House. The nation's ruling party has teamed up a couple who had met only once before and who have little in common, apart from being anti-Commie and ProLife. And they are selling them as the best people to run the world for the next four years because they have the same age/gender balance as Trevor McDonald and Julie Etchingham.
Suddenly hearing Gordon Brown and Hazel Blears droning on about 30 per cent five-year loans for first-time buyers all seems quaintly reassuring.
McCain is the sage and she is the eye-candy

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 11:40 AM

CBS on the "KNowledge by Proximity" argument:

"...For those keeping score at home, the first person to make this argument was Fox News' Steve Doocy, who said, with a straight face, that Palin does know about international relations because she is right up there in Alaska right next door to Russia." Cindy McCain was second, telling George Stephanopoulos, in response to a question about national security experience, "[R]emember, Alaska is the closest part of our continent to Russia. It's not as if she doesn't understand what's at stake here."

U.S. News' Michael Barone was third, defending Palin's credentials by insisting, "Foreign policy experience? Well, Alaska is the only state with a border with Russia." Fourth was conservative writer Frank Gaffney, who said Palin has learned foreign policy "by osmosis," because of Alaska's physical location.

John McCain, then, is fifth. Remember, when Doocy first made the argument, it was so laughable on its face that Jon Stewart called him a "moron." Now, the Republican nominee for president is making the same pitch, hoping people are just stupid enough to believe it.

Palin has never been to Russia. She's never demonstrated any expertise on U.S. policy towards Russia. She doesn't have any background in international relations at any level. But for Republicans, the fact that she's lived in a state near Russia is somehow a qualification for national office.

It's the dumbest argument I've ever heard." (Steve Benen)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 11:54 AM

Just one more comment on experience and then I will follow my own advice and leave it alone and that is...

...if you buy into the Rpub spin then of all the Presidental and Vice Presidential candidates, Plain is the best qualified to be president and if you extend that logic to all Republicans, which for argument sake we'll asy is roughly half the country then if you follow the Repub logic then Palin is better qualified than all the current batch of Presidential and Vice Presidential candidates plus roughly 150,000,000 other Americans???

I think that is the most rediculous spin that a poltical party has ever mustered up...

BTW, I'm still waiting for one of the Palin-ites to tell me why Alaska still got to keep the dough??? Is she on the Halliburton Board of Directors, or what???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Wesley S
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 12:26 PM

This is the part of the speech that offended me:

"To the families of special-needs children all across this country, I have a message: For years, you sought to make America a more welcoming place for your sons and daughters.I pledge to you that if we are elected, you will have a friend and advocate in the White House."

First off - someone tell her that she won't be living in the White House. She'll be living down the street and invited over for meetings and coffee.

Second - If she was an advocate for special needs children it would be something special indeed. Esp since she would be bucking the system created by the other 99.99 percent of her party. As Obama said - "You're on your own".

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 12:38 PM

Bobert, Alaska got to keep the money because Senator Ted Stevens had a hissy fit saying that he'd quit in that event..

Never mind that a good many Alaskans applauded the sentiment but Frank Murkowski was governor then and the Repubs do stick together, doncha know.

"A freshman senator from Oklahoma, saying he was answering America's call to stop wasteful spending, tried Thursday to divert $452 million from two massive Alaska bridge projects and spend some of it on a hurricane-damaged bridge in New Orleans.

"Republican Sen. Tom Coburn's amendment to rescind federal money from the Knik and Gravina bridges won him the fury of Sen. Ted Stevens and only a smattering of votes.

"His attempt failed 82-15 after fist-pounding arguments from Stevens, R-Alaska.

"Stevens threatened to quit, to become a "wounded bull on the floor of this Senate," and he vowed that if his colleagues passed the bill, "I will be taken out of here on a stretcher."

"I will put the Senate on notice -- and I don't kid people -- if the Senate decides to discriminate against our state, to take money only from our state, I'll resign from this body," he said. "This is not the Senate I came to. This is not the Senate I've devoted 37 years to, if one senator can decide he'll take all the money from one state to solve a problem of another."

Here's a Link

Classy guy.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: DougR
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 12:40 PM

Ebbie:WRONG! I have great respect for women. Even married TWO of them (not at the same time of course).

kat: I've never given much thought to whether or not our presidents had (or have) a penis. I assume that they did (do). Other wise they would probably be terribly stooped over from being unable to urinate. I do think it's a pretty dumb question though.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 12:50 PM

I gather that because Alaska IS near Russia, Palin got some regular briefings on the status of Russian installations and would be expected to notify Washington if anyone in her administration noticed any unusual activity. She was simply kept 'in the loop' about a few issues, just in case Alaska 'might' need to do anything......

This hardly makes her **knowledgeable** about basic foreign affairs, much less about serious Russian issues!!! Joe Biden knows everything she does, plus a thousand times more about the rest of the world......and I expect he'll make that clear when they debate. *little smile*


and yes, Dani, I'll vote with you for Barry Finn.... Hey..maybe Barry can write speechs for Biden?


Seriously...what Barry says is sad, but pretty durn close to how it is. The Republicans are making 'displayed religious fervor' a campaign issue, and that OUGHT to be as off-limits as Palin's daughter's pregnancy.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Peace
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 12:53 PM

The choice of Palin is the only thing about McCain's campaign that worries me. Because now he has a chance.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 12:57 PM

Thanks, Eb...

But where did Palin come down on this??? Didn't she inherit most of this money??? Seems that seein' as budgets are for the coming fiscal year that those funds would have been spent under her governorship??? Am I wrong???

Yo, Doug,

If you have so much respect for the womenz then you'd turn away from McCain's choice which is a thinly disguised attemtp to corral Clinton's women supporters...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Peace
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 01:06 PM

Folks, in political campaigns, facts do not matter. What matters is voters' perceptions. Doug, my buddy with who I often trade barbs or outright have fights is getting some flak he really doesn't deserve. Besides, the day after the election I intend to message him and say

"Hey, Doug, the sky FELL!"

I still think Obama is gonna take it, but where before Palin I thought it would be by about 7%, now I think it'll be closer to 2 or 3%. Too close for comfort afaic.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: irishenglish
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 01:16 PM

I just saw an article which mentioned that last night, may be considered the easy part. She was preaching to the choir of delegates in an auditorium. She now has to go out on the road, and have solid answers about issues that matter to the nation, not to Alaskans. Also, whatever one thinks of it, Wolf Blitzer made a good point last night when he said the Obama people by this point do have experience in dealing with a woman candidate. ( Before you criticize me, that's what he said) I think they know when they can jab, and when they can strike, which they will do. Also, any notion that Joe Biden is nervous about debating her is weak in my estimation. Biden will get up there and use his experience on the floor of the Senate and in commitees to show-this is what WE have done, this is what WE recommended, and so on. He will do it in a way that does not belittle or underestimate Sarah Palin, but he will come across as much more resolute, and succinct. I do not think this will be another Quayle/Bentsen moment either, although I'm sure that's what the pundits will be looking for. If you really think about it, Biden has a counter for just about anything Palin can throw at HIM. The key will be how well Biden can defend Obama. My feeling is, he's more than up for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 01:16 PM

Not to feaqr, Bruce... Palin will not turn out to be an assest for McCain but a major liability... Sure the repubs in that convention hall are parroting the company fight song... What choice do they really have??? They desperately want to hold power...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 01:21 PM

"To question her readiness is not to doubt her talent or intelligence; nor is it a reflection of gender bias, snobbery or any of the other sins that have been ascribed to those who worry about Ms. Palin as vice president. Ms. Palin last night noted tartly "that if you're not a member in good standing of the Washington elite, then some in the media consider a candidate unqualified for that reason alone." It is a good applause line. But the fact is that Ms. Palin has an astonishingly thin résumé -- mayor of a small town, governor of a sparsely populated state for less than two years -- for someone hoping to ascend to national leadership. The country will need to hear much more from Ms. Palin before being convinced of the soundness of Mr. McCain's judgment.
" (WaPo)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 01:35 PM

Tartly? I don't think you're supposed to say "tartly."

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 01:51 PM

If you google the University of Idaho, you'll find it is in Moscow, which could prove troubling.

             The other thing is, when McCain first announced his choice of VP, nobody at the U-of-I could remember who she was (is?), but now they've got her pictured plastered all over their web-site, and are calling her "their native daughter."

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 01:55 PM

How opportunistic.

SO!!! She vuz edyerkated in MOSCOW, da??? Chust vat ve need in der Vight Hause!!



A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: irishenglish
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 01:56 PM

Moscow Idaho? Ah...of course...it all makes sense now. They weren't talking about her foreign policy experience because she is geographically near Russia, its because she was in Moscow! Of course! How silly of us all.







Kidding, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 01:59 PM

First of all, I find McBobert's and a number of other posts to reflect Democratic partisanship and taliking points.

There are comments that Palin's speech was negative- yet when Biden did the same, THAT was fine. I guess women aren't supposed to be uppity and actually criticise the opposition.

Now, let us look at the candidates- ALL of them are qualified to be preseident- US citizens, over 35, etc. We may have opinions as to whether they would be GOOD presidents, but that is why we vote- to get those WE AGREE with into office. O'Bomber would be a good president- except that in my opinion his policies ( as stated, AND based on what little he has supported) would not be the way I want the US to be going. Others disagree.

Joe Offer has been one of the few reasonable voices here- though I disagree with him on who would be best for the US as a whole. I doubt if Palin will pick up any "left coast" or "Northeast" liberals- ( which O'Bomber did)- but she WILL energize the conservative base to come out and support a candidate ( McCain) that had only their lukewarm ( ie, better of two bad choices) support. The attacks ( such as here and in the media) serve only to get MORE conservatives to become involved and vote.

I think that O'Bomber has shown himself to be a decent person ( re his comment of the families) but I do not see him having any more control over the liberal attack dogs than McCain has over the conservative ones.

Is there some reason that most here have to attack the opposition candidates personally, instead of just being satified with supporting the policies of the ones they agree with?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: irishenglish
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 02:06 PM

Is there some reason beardedbruce that you named 3 people by their proper name and resorted to a joke name for Barack Obama, the Democratic Party's nominee for President of the United States?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 02:10 PM

Yes, there is. I told Bobert that if he continued to use McXXXX in the manner that he has ( for any that have ideas he does not aprove of) I would use O'Bomber. Talk to him about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Peace
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 02:16 PM

And there ya have it, folks. What I have learned on this thread is that there's gonna be an election and someone will be elected.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 02:21 PM

"What I have learned on this thread is that there's gonna be an election and someone will be elected. "

Well, the election part is correct.


No certainty that anyone will actually win, or that the other side will accept it, even if they do.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 02:25 PM

irishenglish, I agree with your posting about how Biden will handle things.

DOug, it's no more of a stupid question than your assuming all women would want to vote for Palin just because she has a vagina, to be quite blunt about it. Talk about stupid, insulting, and sexist.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 02:28 PM

My initial question and above postings were in response to this from Doug:

It's interesting to me that so many women have been so anxious to see a woman elected to a responsible national position but when it becomes possible, that's really not what they want at all. They only want a LIBERAL woman to be elected to such a position. Is there a bit of hypocrisy there or what?

By that reckoning Doug, you would vote for Barack if he were the only MAN on any ticket?

Do you realise you are saying, in essence, "Oh, you silly women. We finally let one of yours in the club and now you don't want her?! Why, not, she's just like you...got tits and an arse."

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: irishenglish
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 02:29 PM

Now, you ask is there some reason I feel the need to attack McCain and Palin's policies rather than just being satisfied with supporting the policies of the ones they agree with? Um...yes there is. Its called politics. Discussion, discourse, whatever. Or as Monty Python said once, I can't argue with you unless I take up a contrary position. I know what you mean beardedbruce, you are talking about the more personal type of attacks. But in all fairness, the process itself has gotten more mean spirited, and non partisan pundits, and talk show hosts slinging more mud 24/7 on the airwaves and tv does little to make us sound like our founding fathers. I feel a lot of us have lost the notion of a spirited debate, and I'm not talking about mudcat. As a nation, too many of us rely on distorted information, and not enough on rational thought.We refuse to acknowledge hard evidence that should sway our opinion. We would rather hear everythings ok, than pull up your bootstraps, we're in for a long haul. Despite that however, the one thing I will not do is avoid arguing, discussing, attacking what I feel is a wrong, or a mistake. I'm going to guess I'm not going to make you change your mind bb, but I'll still try. All I can do is try. All you can do is try. I'm just not going to run to the high road when I want to be above it all, and the low road when I want to attack. I'll stay on the shoulder, thank you very much!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 02:30 PM

Her's a look comparing Obama's and Palin's careers:

http://www.startribune.com/nation/27823014.html?page=1&c=y

Supporters of Republican vice presidential pick Sarah Palin argue her experience tops that of Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama. Here's a look at some major achievements in the lives of both:

1979: Obama a backbencher on high school basketball team that wins state championship

1982: Palin captain on high school basketball team that wins state championship

1983: Obama graduates from Columbia University. Works for a business research company, then becomes community organizer in poor section of Chicago.

1984: Palin wins "Miss Wasilla" pageant and places second in statewide beauty contest.

1987: Palin graduates from University of Idaho, works in television sports and family fishing business.

1988: Obama enters Harvard Law School.

1990: Obama becomes first black editor of prestigious Harvard Law Review.

1992: Obama runs Project Vote!, which registers 150,000 new voters in Chicago, then begins teaching law at University of Chicago.

1992: Palin wins city council seat in Wasilla, an Alaska town of about 5,500.

1993: Obama joins law firm specializing in civil rights cases.

1995: Obama publishes "Dreams from My Father," a well-reviewed memoir about growing up in America with an absent African father.

1996: Obama elected a state senator.
1996: Palin elected mayor of Wasilla.

2000: Obama defeated in effort to unseat U.S. Rep. Bobby Rush.

2002: Obama speaks out against invading Iraq.
2002: Palin loses Republican primary for Alaska lieutenant governor

2003: In biggest year of his legislative career, Obama passes legislation requiring police to record interrogations in murder cases, collect data on race of drivers they pull over.
2003: Palin appointed to Oil and Gas Conservation Commission.

2004: Obama delivers keynote address at Democratic convention, elected to U.S. Senate.
2004: Palin investigates conduct of a commission member, who ultimately resigns. She later files ethics complaint against state's Republican attorney general, who also resigns.

2006: Obama publishes "The Audacity of Hope," a book detailing his views on national affairs. Works with Senate Republicans to limit nuclear proliferation and shed light on wasteful government spending.
2006: Palin elected first female governor of Alaska.

2007: Obama launches presidential campaign.
2007: Palin overhauls state ethics laws, pushes to build a natural gas pipeline despite opposition from oil industry.

2008: Obama wins marathon Democratic primary against Hillary Rodham Clinton and raises record amounts of money
2008: Alaska legislators probe whether Palin improperly pressured officials to fire her sister's ex-husband, a state trooper. {Palin named VP Candidate in Republican presidential race} Addition mine, Eb


.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Peace
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 02:37 PM

"1984: Palin wins "Miss Wasilla" pageant and places second in statewide beauty contest."

She'd have my vote then.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 02:43 PM

Well, McCain must have heard Bobert call him (McCain) "butt ugly"

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: jimmyt
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 02:54 PM

I watched the speech last night, and I found her to be witty, intelligent, and generally a breath of fresh air to the campaign. I also noted that listening to most commentators on several networks, the consensus was that she hit a home run. Whether the commentator agreed with her politics, there seemed to be a general agreement that she delivered a great speech.

Maybe I was watching something different than most of this thread, but I thought it was superb. I also thought Ted Kennedy gave an inspired speech and Obama and his wife also delivered excellent speeches. I thought Fred Thompson gave a very excellent speech as well as Rudy Guliani. Of course, I was trying to be objective.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 02:57 PM

Good article, Ebbie, thanks!

You know, if they wanted a qualified Republican woman who really does have some chops, they should have gotten Kay Bailey Hutchison, Senator from Texas. I don't care for her stance on a lot of things (same as Palin), she's a member of the NRA (same as Palin), her beauty has also been remarked upon (they called her the "Breck Girl" when she was running for Senator), and Hutchison is elegant. I don't think you can quite Palin of that.

In popular culture terms it's like Pamela Anderson vs Kathryn Hepburn.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 03:02 PM

Looking through her images, I found this. It has occurred to others as well.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 03:03 PM

Sounds like you're willing to listen to both sides in a reasonably fair way, jimmyt. That's rare.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 03:07 PM

I thought why not Hutchinson, too, SRS.

Ebbie, you missed when she joined the PTA and/or was a PTA officer.:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 03:18 PM

Well, first of all, McUgly didn't get that name fir nuthin', bb...lol...

Butt (pun intended) lets get real here... If we're going to compare speeches, the one that McPalin gave last night, as compared to Biden's, was sarcastic, personal and divisive... One can criticise someone elses policy decisions without being rude... Plain might have made those in the crowd happy but she was illmannered and shows just why she is not the kind of person that one wants sitting across the table from Putin...

Actually, neither McHothead or Ms.McHothead have the tempermant to be president because neither of them were brought up to be civil...

Roller Derby would have been a great career chocie for Ms. McHothead...

Oh, and before anyone jumps on me for saying this or that about the Repubs let me remind you that I am, ahhhhhhhh, not runnig for anything...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Peace
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 03:22 PM

The question that has to be answered: Would you want her as President? Because that's what may happen, and few people think that way at election time. Too bad.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 03:34 PM

just to show:


37,244,000 WATCHED PALIN SPEECH ...
[24,029,000 WATCHED BIDEN; 38,379,000 WATCHED OBAMA]

Excuse me- O'BOMBER

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 03:34 PM

No!!! She'd get US into a proxy war with Russia but then again, so will McWar...

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: mg
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 03:35 PM

Again, why is it necessary to bring the very private parts of someone into a conversation. It is probably safe to assume, but you can never be sure and does it really matter, that people will have more or less gender-specific organs. But they are called private for a reason. It is very very offensive to me, not out of prudishness as much as a sense of privacy, which is deemed a fundamental right in the U.S. To me it is just plain wrong to assault these privacy issues. It is OK to do it for Obama. It is OK to do it for HIllary. So soon it will be OK for creeps and lechers to discuss the private plumbing of your daughters, and your sons. It is public domain now. It is horrible. Trust me, as this disease spreads, it will be less and less safe for particuarly young and adolescent people if other people feel it is OK to talk in public, very public, about the genitals of strangers. Where are our boundaries? mg

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 03:36 PM

While O'Bomber will back us into a nuclear war with Iran.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Peace
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 03:39 PM

Would people want her as President?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 03:42 PM

Cover your eyes then, mg, it isn't going to go away. You're being too literal when you read these posts.

BB, I see that you've resorted to playground tactics, you can't dismiss an excellent candidate but you can start name calling. It's what I expect of you.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 03:48 PM

"but you can start name calling. It's what I expect of you."

As I said ( since you didn't bother to read, obviously) as long as McBobert thinks it is suitable to make fun of McCain's name, I will use O'Bomber to show that I think O'Bomber ( from his statements) will get us into a nuclear war.

You are continuing to act as I expect you to.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 03:50 PM

Perhaps you'd like to explain how Obama, with his policy of talkin' to folks, will get US into a nuclear war with Iran while McBluster and his sabre rattling won't, bb???

Even Colin Powell says that what Obama proposes is a more realistic approach to foriegn policy than the one we have and the one that McSabreRattler proposes...

So, please, bb, in your own words can you expalin why diplomacy will fail while sabre rattling will succeed, por favor...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 03:54 PM

An interesting question is "Why not?". The apparent answer is "We've been contaminated by Texas." I dunno if that's the real answer though.

Looking back at Palin's speech, I think although it was well-done in terms of showmanship, it added no substance to the national dialogue, nor did it elevate the discussion. She glorified the role of the military and gave gilded boots to John McCain (despite his lack of executive experience). She demonstrated the best modern pit-bull techniques.

So now we've been introduced, and I am afraid (mostly because of her falsiofying her own track record) that despite the surface glitter of her performance, I am unimpressed, and do not believe she has anything to add to the merits of her party.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Peace
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 03:57 PM

The Republican Party has shown NO merit for years. But then neither have the Democrats, imo.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 04:00 PM

She demonstrated the best modern pit-bull techniques.

That is so demeaning to pit bulls. My pit bull Cinnamon is much smarter than Palin, and she says she'd never vote for McCain or Palin.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 04:03 PM

On the honesty in public statements front, she's faltering more than yesterday:

"From NBC's Mark Murray
This afternoon, the McCain campaign issued a Palin fundraising solicitation for the joint McCain-Palin-RNC fund. (After this week, McCain no longer can raise money after accepting $84.1 million in public funds, but the Republican National Committee and state parties can.)

"I cannot tell you how special last night was for me and how enthused I am to be John McCain's running mate," Palin said in the email solicitation, adding: "Unfortunately, as you've seen this week, the Obama/Biden Democrats have been vicious in their attacks directed toward me, my family and John McCain. The misinformation and flat-out lies must be corrected."

Unless we're mistaken, neither Obama nor Biden nor the campaign has attacked Palin's family. In fact, Obama said this after it was revealed that Palin's 17-year-old daughter is pregnant: "I have said before and I will repeat again: I think people's families are off limits, and people's children are especially off limits. This shouldn't be part of our politics, it has no relevance to governor Palin's performance as a governor or her potential performance as a vice president. And so I would strongly urge people to back off these kinds of stories."

Reached for comment about the charge, RNC spokesman Danny Diaz cited a comment Obama's Florida spokesman made noting (incorrectly, it seems) that Palin supported Pat Buchanan, whom Jews -- at least according to this spokesman -- have called a "Nazi sympathizer."

But Diaz didn't cite a single Obama or Biden charge against Palin's family.
..."

A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 04:10 PM

From NBC's Aram Roston [from Anchorage] ...The GOP candidate for vice president, Gov. Sarah Palin, may be facing yet another ethics investigation back in her home state of Alaska.

An ethics complaint obtained by NBC News was filed yesterday by the police officers' union in Alaska, requesting a probe into possible wrongdoing by the governor or her office. It was brought on behalf of state trooper, Mike Wooten, the ex-brother in law of Palin, who is at the center of the "Troopergate" scandal.

The complaint alleges that the governor or her staff may have have improperly disclosed information from Wooten's personnel records. The complaint alleges "criminal penalties may apply."

"It seems obvious to us somebody has improperly accessed [Wooten's] personnel file," John Cyr, director of the union that filed the complaint, told NBC News.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 04:10 PM

Your pit bull Cinnamon is much smarter than YOU are.


You have demonstrated your intent by saying that I am name calling ( after I explained why) but say nothing about Bobert.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 04:14 PM

Ebbie-

Nice summary.

It is useful to do one's homework.

I do assume that the Democratic Presidential Primary campaign has tested Obama and his team adequately so that they can more than defend themselves against McCain and Palin. And I would expect them to do more than that, mobilize a frontal assault and take no prisoners.

Oh, by the way McCain retired from the Navy as a captain in 1981. It is an honorable rank but hardly one which would qualify him as a major military administrator; I was taught that generals or admirals do that kind of work.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: irishenglish
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 04:15 PM

Here's a solution then-Bobert and beardedbruce, continue with each other your cutesy names for the four candidates amongst yourselves. I on the other hand, along with many others have resorted to no such tactics, so how about not using those names when addressing us?

Sound like a deal?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: SINSULL
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 04:15 PM

She chose her words carefully Amos. She said "Obama/Biden Democrats" (as opposed, I guess, to the Clinton/CLinton Democrats she hopes to win over).

The rumors that her daughter actually gave birth to Trig (why name a kid after a horse?) started on hardcore Democratic blogs. Supposedly, this convinced her and McCain that she had to make her daughter's pregnancy public. The timing of this pregnancy makes it impossible that Trig is the daughter's child.

It is of course ridiculous. How long did she expect to keept he pregnancy secret without hiding her daughter from the public eye?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 04:16 PM

Palin is a DEALER ! http://usera.ImageCave.com/donuel/obamapoker.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 04:17 PM

Bobert,

"how Obama, with his policy of talkin' to folks, will get US into a nuclear war with Iran while McBluster and his sabre rattling won't, bb???"

Since BOTH of them have stated the SAME policy of keeping everything on the table ( including military force) but BOTH have stated they are trying diplomacy first,


By NOT taking any action O'Bomber will allow Iran to develop WMD. WHEN they use them, there will be a nuclear war.

If action is taken to stop that develoment, war MAY result, but it need not be nuclear.

Since the present worldview is that O'Bomber will talk while McCain will act ( even tou are claiming this) O'Bomber will cause a nuclear war.


You may not agree- but try to at least talk about the point, not how ugly someone is.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 04:18 PM

irishenglish

Talk to Bobert- I will refrain if he can stop it.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: irishenglish
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 04:25 PM

Its all speculation beardedbruce. You're jumping to step D when you're talking about us getting into a nuclear war with Iran, and thats the truth. There's a whole lot of other stuff that will happen before that. Wouldn't, for everybodies sake, you hope that step D never happened, no matter who is elected?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: SINSULL
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 04:31 PM

I am confused - are you saying that McCain, by bombing the shit (possibly with nuclear weapons)out of Iran, will prevent the Iranians from bombing the shit out of everybody else (possibly with nuclear weapons)?

But Obama will just allow Iran to...well, you know.

But either way we end up with a nuclear war...

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 04:34 PM

The past few comments, starting with mg at 3:35, especially the exchange with SRS, and the MSNBC quote from Amos, have added to the disconcerting feeling I have had this morning that McCain's choice of Palin may have been an act of (not-really-evil) genius, throwing the course of debate off into a whirlwind. Attacking a small town, tough, articulate woman of achievement for her family tribulations (which she overcomes, very visibly), and which are common to all people, or her religion, is the road to ruin. Attack her experience and you not only revive McCain's chosen subject, but you highlight the fact that she is the penultimate Washington outsider.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 04:37 PM

Since the present worldview is that O'Bomber will talk while McCain will act ( even tou are claiming this) O'Bomber will cause a nuclear war.

That makes no sense. You don't cause a nuclear war just by talking, but you certainly could by acting! If talks started war we would have no need of diplomats, the UN, and a few other things.

BTW, David Kirkpatrick, from the NYTs, was on Fresh Air on NPR this morning. He's written several articles about MCCain and was talking about his research and what he had learned.

One of the things he mentioned is that the moniker of "maverick" is relatively new...came about ten years ago. The fifteen years before that, when McCain was in Congress, someone else (sorry can't remember his name) was the one known as the "Maverick."

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 04:37 PM

The Financial Times Deutschland writes:

"McCain's hubris and irresponsibility are by now blatant. Hubris -- because only a belief in his own immortality for the next four years could justify the choice of a vice president whose only experience, aside from two years as governor of Alaska, was as mayor of a suburb of Anchorage. Irresponsibility -- because US presidents run a high risk of being attacked, as exemplified by John F. Kennedy's assassination, but also by the attack on Ronald Reagan. That occurred on March 30, 1981, 69 days after Reagan took office, and almost cost the new president his life. Imagine what would happen if a President McCain were shot on the evening of March 30, 2009. The world would wake up the next morning to a President Palin, who in an interview about the Iraq war less than two years ago said: 'I've been so focused on state government, I haven't really focused much on the war in Iraq.'"

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 04:49 PM

Asked about whether the scrutiny of Palin had been fair, Obama replied that he had been under the microscope for the 23 months of his campaign while Palin had been in the media spotlight for "what, four days."

He also said that he assumed that Palin, only the second woman on a major-party presidential ticket, would want to treated as
if she were a man.

Obama also dismissed the GOP convention as empty of vision and specifics, and full of hagiography of McCain and criticism of him. "I've been called worse on the basketball court," the Democratic nominee said.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 04:52 PM

"You don't cause a nuclear war just by talking"


Well, you do cause one by allowing the development of WMD by an unstable regime that has threatened another country ( who has 80 - 400 nuclear weapons of their own). I have been watching the EU and UN "Talk" with Iran for the last 4 years- and they have accomplished nothing except tp allow the Iranians to get that much closer to having WMD.

I DID NOT say that Obama would do nothing- but the WORLD'S perception is what will determine how Iran reacts. I do not see that Obama would provide any reason for Iran to stop its WMD program: I do see that McCain MIGHT take action ( possibly military, but certaionly non-nuclear) BEFORE all possibility of a non-nuclear resolution is gone.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 04:53 PM

"'I've been so focused on state government, I haven't really focused much on the war in Iraq.'"




                      That's because the war in Iraq was a waste of time, and she's a busy lady.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 04:58 PM

That's true. And it was not her job at the time to be sending back federal funds intender for her constituents, either.

She is All-American. She is simultaneously a cowboy and apple pie.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 05:01 PM

Too much beer at the convention http://usera.ImageCave.com/donuel/JohnMcPain.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 05:03 PM

irishenglish,

"Wouldn't, for everybodies sake, you hope that step D never happened, no matter who is elected? "

I may hope so, but don't you think I should both promote and vote for the candidate who I beleive will prevent that war, rather than the one that, IMHO will bring us much closer to that step?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 05:10 PM

The Handlers for Palin are taking the Don't ask don't tell about your qualifications to be president......too far.

She played hockey and basketball.
Does she play chess, poker?

toon time = POKER HIGH STAKES

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 05:14 PM

. . .but the WORLD'S perception is what will determine how Iran reacts. I do not see that Obama would provide any reason for Iran to stop its WMD program: I do see that McCain MIGHT take action (possibly military, but certaionly non-nuclear) BEFORE all possibility of a non-nuclear resolution is gone.

I see four more years of stupidity, inspired by Bush's immoral example, should McCain get into office. Obama might actually TALK to the Iranians--wouldn't that be a novel concept? Bush's silent treatment accompanied by a big stick has stirred up a world of angry ants in the Middle East, attacking mindlessly. And you think McCain should keep doing that?

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 05:20 PM

"And you think McCain should keep doing that? "

Since Bush has let the EU and UN do what they wanted ( and has stated that diplomacy was the path he was taking) I disagree with your charectorization.

Thus, your question is meaningless. Since BUSH is not doping that , and NcCain is NOT doing that, why should I think that McCain would keep doing what Bush is NOT doing???

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 05:35 PM

Since Bush has let the EU and UN do what they wanted ( and has stated that diplomacy was the path he was taking) I disagree with your charectorization.

Bush has goaded Iran through threats and his crony's suggestions of imminent invasion--that's not a diplomatic approach. He has directed maneuvers to take place in a threatening manner near Iran. That isn't diplomatic, or letting someone else take care of it.

You can disagree with my characterization all you want--I disagree with your view of the world and methods of arguing important issues--your approach is so flawed I'm frankly concerned that you're in a position of responsibility to be teaching others. If I had a child in your class I'd have him transferred out. When it comes to public discourse, you seem to feel it unnecessary to bother to think for yourself when you can cut and paste, assassinate characters, and throw straw men into the arena as a distraction from the subject at hand.

I generally avoid threads where you're active, and I will remove myself from this one. Your methods are calculated to infuriate, not inform.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 05:50 PM

Here we go with known unknown about WMDs once again.

The only country in the Middle East which definitely has these is, of course, Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 05:52 PM

This thread was tedious long time ago, but it's only been "four days"!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 06:03 PM

Well, one thing is for sure and that is when John "McCain" used the Georgian situation politically with his "We are all Georgians" he not only did not speak for me and millions of other Americans but he stuck his big stupid finger in Putin's eye... I don't want any more of stupid cowboy foriegn policy and that is ****excatly**** what we have seen from John "McCain"... Stupid, sabre rattling, Cold War arrogant, cowboy foriegn policy!!!

Nothin' more and nothin' less...

Talk about staying in Iraq for the next 100 years??? He means it...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: irishenglish
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 06:08 PM

Yes beardedbruce, and I will vote for the one whom I feel will keep us from war, rather than one who will lead us towards it. Pardon me-but thats why its a fucking democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 06:25 PM

No need to pardon you- I would hope that thinking individuals would want to vote for the candidate that they think will produce the best results for the country.

That is what I am doing, and what I think many here are, as well.

That DOES NOT mena that we should not try to inform other WHY we feel the way we do, and perhaps give information to those who still have open minds.


WHy do all the liberals here worry about all the "evil" things that McCain would legislate if he was president? I was under the impression that the Democrats had a lock on both the House, and Senate- one would think that they might be the legislative branch...


I fear ONE party in control of both House and Senate AND the White House MORE than I fear the words of McCain telling the Russians they have crossed a line.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 06:27 PM

Yo, I-Eng, did ya' notice that I refrained from callin' John "McCain" anyhting but John "McCain" in my last post???

I'll hold up my end of the deal as long as bb holds up his...

And, yes, I do believe that Colin Powell was correct in agreeing with Obama that talking with your adversaries decreases the chances of war... This is a ***real issue***, unlike all the puff that Palin spoke of last night...

B!~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: irishenglish
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 06:27 PM

So did you live in fear when the Republicans had control of the House,Senate and the White HOuse?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 06:29 PM

Actually, I was not happy with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 06:29 PM

McCain seems like Eisenhower to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 06:30 PM

Rig,

And this is a bad thing????

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 06:42 PM

re Obama and Iran:

"Speaking on other national security matters, Obama said he would not take military action off the table in dealing with Iran, but diplomacy and sanctions can't be overlooked.

The Islamic republic is a "major threat" and it would be "unacceptable" for the rogue nation to develop a nuclear weapon, he said.

"It is unacceptable for Iran to possess a nuclear weapon, it would be a game changer," Obama said. "It's sufficient to say I would not take military action off the table and that I will never hesitate to use our military force in order to protect the homeland and the United States' interests.""



BTW, SRS, I do not teach. I deal with what happens in the real world.


My question is whether he would take the action he sees as possible in time- I have more confidence that McCain would use the minimum force at an earlier time, rather than a larger attack too late.

Just my opinion, which is what I base my decisions on.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 06:53 PM

Ike, Rigs???Surely you jest... Ike warned of the military/industrial conmplex and John McCain is their hero... Where is the similarity other than both were bald/ing and looked old???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 07:01 PM

That's it. They're both balding and look old. And than, of course, they are both military men, and they're both centrists.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 07:59 PM

One word, procrustean.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 08:35 PM

"Palin recently said that the war in Iraq is "God's task." She's even admitted she hasn't thought about the war much—just last year she was quoted saying, "I've been so focused on state government, I haven't really focused much on the war in Iraq." 1, 2

Palin has actively sought the support of the fringe Alaska Independence Party. Six months ago, Palin told members of the group—who advocate for a vote on secession from the union—to "keep up the good work" and "wished the party luck on what she called its 'inspiring convention.'" 3

Palin wants to teach creationism in public schools. She hasn't made clear whether she thinks evolution is a fact.4

Palin doesn't believe that humans contribute to global warming. Speaking about climate change, she said, "I'm not one though who would attribute it to being manmade." 5

Palin has close ties to Big Oil. Her inauguration was even sponsored by BP. 6

Palin is extremely anti-choice. She doesn't even support abortion in the case of rape or incest. 7

Palin opposes comprehensive sex-ed in public schools. She's said she will only support abstinence-only approaches. 8

As mayor, Palin tried to ban books from the library. Palin asked the library how she might go about banning books because some had inappropriate language in them—shocking the librarian, Mary Ellen Baker. According to Time, "news reports from the time show that Palin had threatened to fire Baker for not giving "full support" to the mayor." 9

She DID support the Bridge to Nowhere (before she opposed it). Palin claimed that she said "thanks, but no thanks" to the infamous Bridge to Nowhere. But in 2006, Palin supported the project repeatedly, saying that Alaska should take advantage of earmarks "while our congressional delegation is in a strong position to assist." 10

The plain fact of the matter is that Sarah Palin did a bang-up job delivering a Karl Rove-style political attack speech last night. That makes her a skilled politician but it doesn't make her views any more palatable for voters. Americans don't really want another far-right, anti-science ideologue in the White House. "

...

P.S. If you haven't seen it, check out the Daily Show clip on Palin. It's worth a watch
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=24753&id=13709-7901518-5V.Hf1x&t=5

Sources
1. "Palin: Iraq war 'a task that is from God'," Associated Press, September 3, 2008
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=24701&id=13709-7901518-5V.Hf1x&t=6

2. "Palin wasn't 'really focused much' on the Iraq war," ThinkProgress, August 30, 2008
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=24702&id=13709-7901518-5V.Hf1x&t=7

3. "The Sarah Palin Digest," ThinkProgress, September 4, 2008
http://thinkprogress.org/palin-digest/

4. "McCain and Palin differ on issues," Associated Press, September 3, 2008
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=24703&id=13709-7901518-5V.Hf1x&t=8

5. Ibid

6. The Sarah Palin Digest," ThinkProgress, September 4, 2008
http://thinkprogress.org/palin-digest/

7. Ibid

8. Ibid.

9. "Mayor Palin: A Rough Record," Time, September 2, 2008
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=24704&id=13709-7901518-5V.Hf1x&t=9

10. The Sarah Palin Digest," ThinkProgress, September 4, 2008
http://thinkprogress.org/palin-digest/


(MoveOn.org)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 08:36 PM

Centrists don't start wars of choice, Rigs... Ike, if he were alove, would never, ver have invaded Iraq... You need to go back and study your history... You have McCain confused with the other bald guy, Nakita Khrusshchev... Remember him??? The shoe banger... Well, that is who came to my mind when McCain went into his we are all Georgian histronics... The shoe banger...

Go ahead and vote for McCain, Rigs, but if he gets elected and has the US lose the next Cold War, which it very well might, don't say you weren't warned... McCain is a hot head at a time when we need a ***thoughtfull*** leader...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Greg B
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 09:07 PM

Palin's speech? PALIN'S SPEECH?

Give me a break.

Ever since her nomination (or 'annointing'), she's been in seclusion.

Not allowed to take any spontaneous questions or speak for herself.

Hmmmmmm....

Bought, paid-for, packaged and so on by the RNC.

Filling in the VP attack-dog space so well executed by our present
VP. With the added benefit of a vagina, for those who might be
taken in by the latter.

She didn't write that speech. She delivered it, as instructed, as
their 'robo-candidate.' Not an original idea in the whole thing.

"Hey, little town mayor rose to state Governor, want to rise to
#2 office in the USofA? Well, c'mon, shut the f*** up, play the
game, do as your told, get your kids to take down their MySpace
pages and give yourself over to the same marketeers who made
Ronnie Reagon over from a stupid Hollywood dolt into a viable
candidate, and take the ride from your double-wide."

Meanwhile (according to NPR) the RNC has sent their minions into
Alaska to "manage" the press's research and questions about Ms.
(or should we say Mrs.) Palin. Just to make sure they get the
"right" answers from the locals.

I really hate the word, but I can't help believe that she's nothing
more than the RNC's "token c**t."

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 09:25 PM

Greg B-

I usually find your postings of interest but I think you should ask the moderators to delete the last sentence in your post as extremely offensive:

I really hate the word, but I can't help believe that she's nothing
more than the RNC's "token c**t."

I could PM you but I thought I'd post this thought in the public forum and I would hope that the moderators would delete my post as well.

Anyone else want to be obscene and abusive?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Greg B
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 09:33 PM

Sir Charles:

I stand by it.

Not my words, but theirs. Or not their words, but their
thoughts, as I see it.

As I said, I detest the word, as applied politically.

But I truly believe that the RNC is thinking of Ms. Palin in those
terms and is objectifying her as such.

And you'll note the asterisks. I just can't bring myself to
utter it.

They're using her.

Hence the term.

But I'm glad you're horrified.

Kind of sums up how horrific a decision it is; and how shallow.

That isn't all she is to me; no woman is. But sadly, I think it
is what she is to the RNC who are packaging her up.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 09:35 PM

Just when you thought it couldn't sink any lower!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 09:51 PM

I have to say I agree with Greg, though I might not put it in those terms. I've said as much regardless. The asterisks are fine, imo and it is a horrifying thing to contemplate what they are doing and that she is falling for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 09:53 PM

The Hillary PUMA crowd was insulted by the choice; I doubt many of them are assuaged by the speech. Why?? Because the difference between a genuine politically savvy policy wonk like Hillary (whom I have forgiven her sins, BTW) and the RNC spear-carrier act recited by the lovely Ms Palin are palpable, is the difference between a thinking woman and a female androidette.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 10:08 PM

12:16 AM 4 Sept 2008:   "Evidence and documentation, please".   Certainly a reasonable request--now where have I heard that request before? I have to say I'm flattered--"Imitation is...."

But then, later on the same night, the same request. Uh, some of us actually need to sleep more than 4 hours to function the next day at work. (And some can't post from work). My hat's off to you if you don't need sleep--or maybe I'm sorry for you--that your addiction to battling fellow Mudcatters won't let you sleep.

At any rate, try this.

Documentary evidence of Sarah's fighting against corruption in the AK Republican party?

Waaal Lesseeee here. Maybe you'd like to start by actually reading this very thread. To save you time, try the 29 Aug 2008 12:09 PM post by Ed T---his link to the National Journal-Almanac.

Of course it's hard to know what a person whose profession is hard-bitten cynicism might consider as an objective source. This one seems pretty objective to me. But if you disagree, please tell us exactly why.

Without further ado:



From the National Journal:   "As the commission's chairwoman and designated ethics officer, Palin spearheaded the investigation that ultimately prompted Ruedrich to resign from the commission".

Further down: " Palin also joined with Democratic State Representative Eric Craft to file an ethics complaint against Alaska Attorney Greg Renkes, who had close political ties to Governor Frank Murkowski. The complaint alleged that Renkes' ownership of a coal company represented a conflict of interest".

You're welcome to peruse the whole article if you don't like my excerpts.   It doesn't change the conclusion--she did in fact fight corruption in the Alaska Republican party.

Her motive? Hard to say. I'm sure ambition was part of it. But the fact remains she did help to cause the removal from office of some corrupt Republicans.

As I've said before, she is dead wrong on virtually every issue. But humans are complex creatures. And she has done some good--in helping to purge her own party.

Sorry she doesn't fit the cartoon of her fondly held by some Mudcatters.

He who has eyes to see...

Unless of course the poster is more along the lines of "Nowhere Man"--"Just sees what he wants to see..."

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 10:21 PM

Good article in Newsweek re' the RNC and facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 10:24 PM

From a Newsweek blog:

Amount raised by the John McCain campaign in the two-and-a-half days after Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin joined the ticket: $10 million.

Amount raised by the Barack Obama campaign in the 24 hours after Palin delivered her speech at the 2008 Republican Convention: $10 million.
Advertisement

Uniting both parties' bases in one fell swoop (or, er, woman): Priceless.

Although, it must be noted: Obama's post-Palin fundraising rate ($416,666 per hour) is more than twice as fast as McCain's ($166,666 per hour). Talk about reaching across the aisle.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 10:28 PM

I would hope that you know the speech that Palin gave was written by GWB's favorite speech writer.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 10:28 PM

Obama has been spending about twice what McCain has.


As usual, we will get the best President that money can buy.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 10:53 PM

Obviously, what will determine the election is how many Hillary voters are really Hillary voters--and not just dittoheads.

If Obama gets the vast majority of Hillary voters--since her positions dovetail almost perfectly with his--and emphatically not with the McCain/Palin ticket--he will win. The large majority of her voters--including of course, Hispanics and most working women, combined with the Obama voters--huge numbers of young people, blacks, anybody interested in preserving Roe v Wade, and intelligent people of all backgrounds should be a substantial majority of the electorate.

The corollary of course is that Hillary voters who in fact vote for McCain/ Palin in the fall were not really Hillary voters in the first place. How many of the voters in WV or rural PA, for instance, who voted for her in the primary would have voted for her in the fall against McCain? So much for the "18 million" claim.

And how many fall in that category? Who knows? But that will tell the tale.

Especially since with Palin, McCain has--finally--energized his base.

But that should make the Hillary voters realize--do they actually believe in her stands--or was she--as Obama is accused of being--just a personality cult?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 10:57 PM

"As usual, we will get the best President that money can buy..."


               Yeah, Bruce, that's what happened in the primary as well. Now we hear what a terrible campaign Hillary ran, when the only thing that mattered was money.
               That's why we have Obama, and that's why some of us who would normally never support a Republican candidate will support McCain. He, to his never ending credit, opted for public financing.
Obama reneged.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 11:03 PM

Yes, he has energized his base - and - what's more, as the lefties heap disdain upon her - she becomes the gift that keeps on giving.

The only appropriate Democratic strategy is to ignore her to the extent possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Barry Finn
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 11:44 PM

Thanks Dani, you & Bill make 2.

We can discuss my campain promises in secret at the Getaway.

See you there

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 12:10 AM

Barry, I'll vote for you, too!!

I am quite proud of the fact, btw, fellah, that Obama never accepted one cent of PAC money.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: mg
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 01:13 AM

No one needs to, or in my opinion, has a moral right to, refer to her private parts other than her doctor or her husband or perhaps her close confidants. That is not us. I think it is sexual harrassement to flippantly talk about this. It is hers. It is not ours to discuss. If that privacy is taken away from someone, what hope is there for the rest of us...when every creep in the world..and I do find some of you here creepy..can comment on what from time immemorial has been kept private and covered. It is nobody's business. Talk about her policies or her lack of accomplishments or her shady dealings or whatever but leave her most personal anatomy out of this. Same goes for Obama or Clinton or anyone. This is really serious. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: ard mhacha
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 04:36 AM

I wish this bloody awful US election was over, it dominates the airwaves, the same old crap, McPain finishes his speech with the usual cringworthy rubbish, I wish they would all disappear.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Lox
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 05:34 AM

Entertaining link

I thought so anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 07:10 AM

'Over half of U.S. voters (51%) think reporters are trying to hurt Sarah Palin with their news coverage, and 24% say those stories make them more likely to vote for Republican presidential candidate John McCain in November. ...

Since McCain announced Palin as his running mate on Friday, she has been subjected to an unprecedented wave of negative media stories, many focused on her personal life and especially the pregnancy of her unmarried 17-year-old daughter. The focus of the coverage, especially in the blogosphere, has even prompted Obama to distance himself from it.

Eighty percent (80%) of Republicans say reporters are trying to hurt the GOP vice presidential nominee, and 28% of Democrats agree

Among unaffiliated voters, 49% say reporters are trying to hurt Palin, while 32% say their coverage is unbiased. Only five percent (5%) say reporters are trying to help her.

Most Republicans and unaffiliated voters say the stories show the media's double standard against women'

from a national survey of 1,000 Likely Voters conducted by Rasmussen Reports on September 3, 2008.
The margin of sampling error for each survey is +/- 3 percentage points with a 95% level of confidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 07:45 AM

Absolutely, attacking Palin personally will help her and McCain. That's why Greg R etc. are doing Obama no good with their descriptions of Palin--and why I've been appealing for no more smears--on any side of the political spectrum--and recognition of the fact that Palin has in fact attacked corruption in the AK Republican party. It should certainly be obvious, as I noted earlier, that Palin's appeal should not be underestimated.

Now comes more evidence that the Democrats have to stop personal attacks on Palin--and stupid addiction to wild-eyed theories like Scheunemann being behind the August 2008 attempt by Georgia to drag its restive provinces back into the fold.

Big headline in the WSJ today: McCain Vows End To 'Rancor', Betting On Maverick Appeal

Gee I wonder if that has anything to do that he now has the perfect attack dog in Palin. And "attack dog" is no personal smear--it's just the typical VP role these days.

And for people who don't think clearly, "end to rancor" is a very seductive appeal for him.

Irony is: McCain/Palin are still very vulnerable on the issues.

On both the economy and health care--the number 1 and 2 issues for the US these days, McCain/Palin's only solution boils down to: "let the market take care of it".   In Iraq, they both think "victory" is within the US' grasp. Ignoring the fact that Iraq is still likely to break up--the Kurds want no part of it. Roe v Wade--it should be obvious what danger that will be in if McCain/Palin are elected.

No more time--but there are other issues on which Obama/Biden are on the right side--and McCain/Palin would still lead the US down the wrong path.

Obama himself appeals to his supporters to stick to the issues--for good reason--that's the way to win.

And it still can happen. If Obama gets the huge majority of registered Democrats, McCain the huge majority of Republicans, and they split the independents, it's no contest--McCain has no chance.

So let's simmer down, and go back to discussing the issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 07:52 AM

"Obama is spending twice as much as McCain"...

Misleading... Actually, Obama has more offices than McCain which accounts for the expenses... McCain, I read recently, outspent Obama in August on TV commercials... But that's the McCain strategy... Media, media, media hoping that will make up for his lack of grassroots organizing...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 08:00 AM

"normally never support a Republican candidate..." Right.   As long as anybody who takes that approach is happy with "let the market take care of it" as a solution to all problems--and just fine with the continuing breakdown of the church/state division. Somebody who plans on voting for McCain/Palin should--finally--- do some research on McCain's and Palin's views on this--and realize, contrary, to his fondly-held delusions, that there is a huge difference between their attitudes and those of Obama and Biden.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 08:15 AM

Well, even if Palin is a "token" woman, she is probably John McCain's best choice becuase she comes with no regocnition and is a new face... That, in itself, was a good move... But...

...she was a new face yesterday, she's an old face now (co-opted form an old Jethro Tull song "New Day Yesterday") and that like McCain there will come a time when each of them will have to come out of their mortan lobing bunkers and face the music... There is a reason that McCain doesn't want her to do press conferences or interact with anyone other than the Koolaiders...

The debates are going to be the crux of this campaign... All the McCain/Palin grenades in the world can't and won't change that...

Yes, I know that their strategy will be the old rope-a-dope in the debates as they try to run out the clock but they can run from the hard questions only but so long before one lands and neither of them is ready to answer any hard questions... That is why all those so-called "town meetings" that McCain has been doing have been scripted, al la George Bush...

But the day of reckoning is out there for both McCain and Palin and when it gets here the American people will finally get to see the real product...Right now it's like a shiney new car... Problem is that it doesn't have an engine under the hood... All shine and no motor...

That's the way I see it...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 08:15 AM

Outside of the tabloid press and Mudcat I have not seen any negative press on her daughter's pregnancy.Just reporting it does not make it a negative comment. What am I missing? Where are there negative reports?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 08:49 AM

I think it is rather interesting that maybe, just maybe the future president of the United States is a wife of a fisherman, and oil field worker (card carrying member of the United Steel workers), a mother of 5 (with one special needs child, the other a teenage mother to be, and a 19 yr. old son soon to be deployed to Iraq). In some ways she some ways she looks very much lke the people who have been desperately needing a voice for them in Washington.

This was a brilliant move by the Republican party in choosing her. The more the Obama crowd attacks her, the stronger her appeal becomes. And by the looks of things their strategy is working.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 09:06 AM

"'As long as anybody who takes that approach is happy with "let the market take care of it" as a solution to all problems--and just fine with the continuing breakdown of the church/state division.'"


                   Yes, I would agree, except if candidate wishes to take a pro-active course that would make things worse than just letting market forces take over.
                   And Oh Bummer abandoned any hope many of us had of perserving the division of church and state when he proubly announced that he intended to keep the office of "faith based initiatives" open, if elected.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 09:06 AM

800!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 09:07 AM

Well, close!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 09:21 AM

"I have not seen any negative press on her daughter's pregnancy."

The Republican right is actually appearing quite liberal in its reaction to Palin's teenaged daughter being pregnant and unmarried. A more typical reaction would be to stone her and her mother, but that may only apply to Democratic liberals whose teenaged daughters get pregnant. I mean, can't you imagine the headlines that would flash across the country if Chelsea had gotten pregnant: "WHERE WAS HER MOTHER? WHERE WAS HER FATHER!"

Sure, the Republicans appear hypocritical here but I suppose they may have learned to be more open-minded with regard to teenaged pregnancy, just so long as the teenager or her mother is not on welfare.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 09:40 AM

Who knows ... the child of that 17yr old daughter could grow up to be a (Democrat) president of the United States.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 09:53 AM

Ahhhhh, for the record, I haven't seen where the Dems or Obama have "attacked" either McCain or Palin...

If anyone knows where this is being done, please feel free to share this with us...

No, this is yet another McCain/Repub lie... Obama is out there talking policy and not getting in the gutter with tghe Repubs... Yet a lot of people think it's okay to spread the BIG LIE that Obama is in the attack mode...

This is more Repub propaganda that isn't beased on truth...

McCain thinks he can use propaganda all the way to the White House and I'm not saying he can't... George Bush certainly did it in '04 but there is a risk on his part that this strategey will be seen for what it is and should that occur then it comes down to whether or not the American people want to be lied to for another 4 years...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 10:01 AM

Obama is not in the attack mode ... it's all those Dem blogs, press, dem fanatics in forums (such as here). I guess you can label this kind of stuff as the "fringe propaganda".

biLL    :)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 10:18 AM

I like that, biLL... "Fringe propagnda"... Has a nice ring to it...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 10:35 AM

All you have to do is go to www.snopes.com or turn on 'talk' radio (Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, etc.) and see how much Obama has been attacked with hate and lies as long as he has been campaigning. The personal attacks on any of the candidates is wrong, but the balance has been FAR, FAR greater against Obama and Clinton than Palin or McCain. Like I said, personal attacks are wrong, but the Republican attack machine was well set up years ago with talk radio and the hate machines that pump out chains of emails with lies about the Democrats, especially about Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 10:40 AM

The September 3 Jon Stewart show had a wonderful contrast. A clip from Bill O'Reilly arguing that Palin's daughter's situation is a private affair, followed by another clip when what's-her-name's sister got pregnant blasting the parents as negligent pinheads.

So it's a matter of conveninece who gets judged on what.

Me, I'm more even-handed. I think Bill O'Reilly is a pinhead all the time.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 11:06 AM

Most people in the US know what 'talk radio' and Rush Limbaugh are about. For those of you who are outside the US looking in, the AM radio dial here is dominated by a chain of stations owned by Clear Channel.
The stations, for the most part, broadcast a steady stream of hatred of liberals, feminists (whom Limbaugh calls feminazis), environmentalists, Democrats... all you have to do is listen to some of Rush Limbaugh to get the idea.
You can hear it on the internet at
http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/today.guest.html

There are many people who listen to this on a daily basis, getting only this type of broadcasting as their main "news source". The Limbaugh listeners pride themselves in being "ditto heads".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clear_Channel_Communications

Recently, a man attacked a Unitarian Church, shooting nine people, killing two of them.
'''Police in Knoxville were quoted as saying that the man, later identified as Jim D. Adkisson, 58, targeted the church "because of its liberal teachings and his belief that all liberals should be killed because they were ruining the country, and that ... the Democrats had tied his country's hands in the war on terror and had ruined every institution in America with the aid of media outlets."
Might the shooter have heard talk-show host Rush Limbaugh say that "liberalism is the greatest threat this country faces" and "the Islamofascists are actually campaigning for the election of Democrats"
===
article, "Does shock jock hate speech lead to violence?" Shock Jock refers to the radio disc jockeys like Limbaugh who speak "shock" extremism.

quote from article "When I asked Rory O'Connor, author of a study of shock jocks and hate speech, for his take on the shootings, he replied, "Sure, these guys hold some responsibility for what happened, but we all hold responsibility - particularly anyone who hasn't stood up and spoken out against hate speech. We're all contributing to the climate where people are being dehumanized because of their beliefs."
Full article at Newsday.com

click here

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 11:15 AM

It's hard to avoid hearing these people from time to time, and we certainly here of them. But one guy goes nuts and shoots Unitarians. It seems like the problem lies with that one guy.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 11:21 AM

OF course the problem is with that one guy, fundamentally.

But as the old joke about the tailor says, "Look who got him dizzy first."

Rush Limbaugh is a stain on AMerica's underwear.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 11:24 AM

A steady stream of hate propaganda shapes people's beliefs and their actions. It makes them bomb buses, crash planes into buildings, blow themselves up in markets, shoot people, ethnic cleanse, start wars... the problem is the hateful beliefs that motivate people to destroy others.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 11:26 AM

Dave Lindorff, Baltimore Chronicle, remarks:

"...What Palin didn't tell convention-goers or the national viewing audience was that as governor she cut the funds for a program in the state to support single teen mothers and that as a PTA member, mayor and finally as governor of Alaska, she has opposed sex education in the schools—something that her daughter and future son-in-law clearly could have used. Less advantaged single mothers in Alaska and, should she be elected, in the rest of America, will not have a friend in Blair House. She also failed to mention that McCain has voted against funding of teen pregnancy prevention programs in Congress.

Palin continued, in her acceptance speech, to spout another lie which she had already been making in her first days on the stump since being picked by McCain as his choice for running mate: that she had said "No thank you" to the $439-million "Bridge to Nowhere" which, as perhaps the biggest single earmark in a year of record earmarks last year had become a national joke line. The truth: Palin backed that bridge, and was even ready to add state funding to get it built, until it became a national joke. Then she thought better, and killed the bridge, while still taking the money, which the state's senior senator, Ted Stevens (now under indictment for taking bribes from contractors), had earmarked.

Palin went on to lie about her opponent, Barack Obama's, tax plan, saying it would raise taxes on businesses and on all Americans. In fact, Obama's plan calls for lowering the corporate profits tax, while increasing the tax on dividends and capital gains, both of which fall not on businesses but on investors, and for lowering taxes on most Americans, while raising them for people earning over $250,000.

John McCain likes to ride around in a bus he dubs the "Straight-Talk Express."

..."

A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 12:07 PM

Bobert,

Offices that do what??? I thought they were were the campaign was being run from?

Offices, offices, offices hoping that will make up for his lack of grassroots appeal to independents.



just my opinion...

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 12:45 PM

"and finally as governor of Alaska, she has opposed sex education in the schools—something that her daughter and future son-in-law clearly could have used. "

Her daughter and future son-in-law (I'm sure)were quite knowledgeable on how babies are made ... the problem is not education, the problem lies elsewhere beyond the scope of 'sex education'.

Take note of what Obama said ... his mother was 18 years old when he was born.

In regards to "funds for a program to support teen moms" .... 'a program' ... are there other programs besides this 'a program' in Alaska to help single teen moms?

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Greg B
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 12:56 PM

The Republican party is fundamentally a misogynist organization;
their policies and attitudes towards meeting women's real needs
bear that out.

That's why I used misogynistic language to describe what they
are doing, and how these guys think. (And I'd be willing to wager
that language was used by some of the Republican power-brokers behind
closed doors.)

Now they've managed to dredge up a woman who is herself a misogynist,
and who also has at least marginal paper qualifications to enter the
race (she's a governor). Of course the reasons her qualifications are
so marginal and subject to debate is that it is rather hard to find a
qualified woman who'll support the anti-woman platform to an even
greater degree than John McCain, who is viewed by many of the party
faithful as "too liberal."

I mean you just don't get that combination of barefoot and pregnant
and a governor or member of Congress coming around that often.

So far she's turning out to be a good soldier/puppet. First she
was 'seen and not heard' and when she WAS heard she faithfully
recited the words written for her by the men who are packaging
her up to get out the Evangelical and Catholic vote.

That she represents the kind of person who needs a voice in DC
is just what her handlers would have you believe. But in fact
she's a sham, because her stances on the issues indicate that she
either has forgotten, or doesn't care, where she came from.

Look at her attempting to trade on her 'special needs' child!
Why would she wait until NOW to be 'a friend' to parents of
such children, as she put it? Perhaps because it, and by inference
now, even the CHILD suits her purpose?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 02:30 PM

From Newsweek:

"...Gov. Sarah Palin is suing the Bush administration on behalf of the state of Alaska to overturn the decision to add polar bears to the endangered-species list.

The Bushies are hardly radical environmentalists. It's Palin who is on the far right of the ideological axis that governs so much of our political debate. At the same time, she is a political natural, skewering the opposition with a down-home smile. Amidst the electricity she generated in St. Paul, it seems churlish to raise such pesky issues as her belief that global warming is not man-made and her opposition to abortion without exception for rape and incest. The Obama campaign better hurry up and draw the contrast before America falls in love with the hockey mom.

As someone who has written extensively about women in politics, I'm glad the Republican Party picked a woman. It gives John McCain the second look he might not have gotten, and I'll bet Barack Obama can now better understand how Hillary Clinton felt during the primaries. After Democrats congratulated themselves for supporting a black man as their nominee, Palin came from nowhere to crash the party. Her candidacy is pitched to our celebrity culture, and before the week was out, there she was on the cover of People, Us, OK and the National Enquirer.

Palin has a compelling life story, but she is in no sense ready to assume the presidency. Karl Rove admitted as much this week when he said putting Palin on the ticket is a political choice, not a governing choice. The fascination with all the elements of her story—special-needs baby, pregnant teenage daughter, snowmobiling husband—don't change the fact that she is the most thinly credentialed vice presidential contender since Dan (potato with an "e") Quayle, who was put on the ticket in '88 because the old guard thought a good-looking first-term senator could attract young voters.

First impressions count, and Quayle never recovered from the deer-in-the-headlights look he displayed in his first encounter with the national press over his draft records. Palin is no Quayle. She is much harder-edged and ideological, more like Marilyn Quayle whose speech at the 1992 Republican convention denouncing feminism and extolling traditional motherhood helped lose the race for the GOP. Feminists helped pave the way for women to work outside the home—as Governor Palin does. With economic pressures making it essential for most women to work, the debate quieted.

That's a debate the McCain campaign would love to have, but it's not one that the Democrats are inciting. After championing the right of women to make the widest possible career and family choices, Democrats aren't about to cede that mantle to the party that was against modern values before they were for them. Women of all political stripes are talking among themselves about the challenges Palin faces, and what they would do if they were in her shoes, but it's not a partisan debate. It's individual, and it's personal, and it has to do with knowing how hard the juggling act is wherever you are on the ideological scale. It's comical to watch the male commentators on television huffing and puffing over the double standard applied to women, as if they've discovered something new.

..."

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 02:41 PM

bb,

You obviously have never worked in a political campaign... Of course they require offices... John McCain has hundred of offices across the country... Obama has at least twice that many... There is rent, and electricity and phones and copying, etc... That's what happens in campaign offices, be them McCain's or Obama's...

Obama has chosen to spend more money on offices and less on advertising porportionate to McCain... McCain is going the other route with more porportionately to what he has to spend on advertising at the espense of offices... Just different choices and strategies...

But it is a misleading statement to say that Obama is spending more than McCain becuase to most casual readers one would think advertising and not take into account other expenses, such as offices and even staff...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 02:45 PM

Bobert,

It is still money Obama is spending, which he has to get from donations. He IS spending more money than McCain.


Buying the election: Does it matter if he pays media or landlords???

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 02:59 PM

Your discoloration of running a campaign as "buying an election" is bitter and inacurrate. 2000 was a bought election. Barack's expenditures are as far as we know within the normal parameters of a national campaign.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 03:46 PM

"Barack's expenditures are as far as we know within the normal parameters of a national campaign. "

and twice the amount that McCain is spending, and NOT limited by the federal matching.

Like I said, the best president money can buy.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 03:54 PM

Your sneering comment is so couched as to imply that Obama is "buying an election" while McCain is simply running an honest campaign. If that is your insinuation, it is both inaccurate and, IMHO, dishonorable. Obama's campaign funds were sent to him by poeple who believed he was an excellent candidate, entirely legitimately.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 04:15 PM

"Obama's campaign funds were sent to him by poeple who believed he was an excellent candidate, entirely legitimately."



                     All of which goes to prove how easy it is to fool people.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 04:17 PM

"Your sneering comment is so couched as to imply that Obama is "buying an election" while McCain is simply running an honest campaign. "

NOT what I said, Amos.

BOTH parties are trying to buy the election- The Dems have more money and have a larger base of people who look to benefit from their winning.




But what is this about Obama and the Federal funds? when it looked to his benifit, he was for taking them, when he thought he could get more otherwise, he changed his mind. A good stratagy, but not according to his stated principles.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 04:21 PM

"Obama's campaign funds were sent to him by poeple who believed he was an excellent candidate, entirely legitimately."


As were McCain's.

Both have a mix of individual and Corporate contributions. By the AMOUNT given, Obama has MORE funding from BOTH individuals AND from groups/corporations.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 04:21 PM

>Obama's campaign funds were sent to him by people who believed he was an excellent candidate, entirely legitimately.<

The assumption supporting that statement is downright un-American.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 04:34 PM

BB-
One might look at who's doing the buying. I'd much rather see an elected official "bought" by a couple of million individual contributors than one who was "bought" by the oil and drug and insurance industries.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 04:57 PM

Anyone know who runs this site I just stumbled into today?
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/9/4/34846/82364

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: DougR
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 05:13 PM

Bobert: Your post of September 4 at 12:57PM: I suppose were Obama to pick off a few Republican women voters as a result of his picking that handsome guy, Joe Biden, that would be okay though, right?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 05:16 PM

"I'd much rather see an elected official "bought" by a couple of million individual contributors than one who was "bought" by the oil and drug and insurance industries. "

But "the oil and drug and insurance industries" ARE buying him, as well. LOOK at his contributions. A greater PERCENTAGE of contributions is from small donors-NOT a greater AMOUNT.

OEx:, ( not real figures, but examples of how the PERCENTAGE is used to change peceptions.
\
O has $10 mil in donations, and 5 mil from small donors
:50% from small donors, AND $5 million from those evil oil and drug and insurance industries

M has $5 mil in donations, and 1 mil from small donors
:20% from small donors, but $4 mill from the evil lobbiests

BOTH are bought and paid for, by those oil and drug and insurance industries. OR neither one is.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: DougR
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 05:29 PM

Recent reports I have heard indicate that the Obama campaign may be in financial trouble. He may regret that he did not take federal matching funds as he originally pledged to do (but what good is a pledge, right?)

I would suggest that all of you Obama supporters get out your check-books and write a check to his campaign. Put your money where your mouth is, so to speak. I have. (Oops don't want to mislead. My money has gone to McCain).

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 05:31 PM

O has $10 mil in donations, and 5 mil from small donors
:50% from small donors, AND $5 million from those evil oil and drug and insurance industries

$5 million from small donors is what, 200,000 donors? vs $5 million from large, which is 5000 donors - 97.6% small donors!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 05:56 PM

Ed - I just read your dailykos article word for word, carefully. Such a tantalizing title and intro (Summary: Cheney picked Palin and forced her on McCain, as payback for helping him cover-up the dirty politics involved in trying to get that LNG pipeline built.) It goes on and on as if it might be going somewhere - and then it just STOPS. It sets up a good piece of speculation that her rise to the top was manipulated by Cheney for being a good lap dog, then ends as speculation.

Could have been a very good story there - but someone would have to actually write it, first.

If the DOJ asks a state's Attorney General to back off a corruption probe, should the A-G do so? The writer says no - but I wonder what the actual practice would be.

The writer says the A-G went to Pepperdine and is therefore right-wing. However, even if entrenched corruption wasn't a good enough reason for the State to let the Feds work independently and unfettered, maybe the A-G's office just didn't have the skills and resources to bring down entrenched corruption.

Thanks for the good read - but in the end I still think someone needs to write the story.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 06:23 PM

Sour grapes, bb... I didn't hear you crying when it was Bush who outspent Kerry and Gore...

If yer gonna stand on principle ya' gotta "call it both ways" (basketball term)...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 06:36 PM

Bobert

Not complaining.
\

we can have the President who spends the most to get elected. At least as good as the one with the most votes, from your earlier comments (2004 election) about not letting thos "NASCAR hicks" vote (or any others that did not agree with YOUR opinions.)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 07:53 PM

GUEST,heric

Thanks for the assessment. It's my assessment also.

Interesting (speculative) reading. It did get me thinking (linking the dots on what occured behind the interconnected political scene) on the Palin choice It still seems to be a puzzle. Though silent, I it is difficult to believe that Bush/Cheney are not pulling powerful internal strings somewhere behind the scene to ensure their power base is not absent in the next admisteration. Powerful people and their allies don't normally just die and roll over.

But, in the end the site missed the mark on credibility by far.

No idea where it came from. Thought someone may know.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 07:53 PM

DOugR, that's BS. Obama received ten million dollars in donation in the 24 hours right after Palin's speech!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 07:59 PM

This issue isn't whether or not the daughter and future son-in-law know how babies are made. The issue is that a lot of people their age aren't very well informed about how to prevent babies from being made. That's a big part of what sex education is for. A good sex ed program should also provide teens with hands-on opportunities to find out for themselves how much responsibility is involved in being a parent. There are some very good programs that teach these things that the people who advocate for "abstinence only" sex ed don't want teens to have access to.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Peace
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 08:03 PM

heric, you are one helluva writer and thinker. Loved the post.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 08:30 PM

Carol, the UK (despite the fact that we are not 'disestablished') has a sex education programme in schools

'The guidance on sex and relationship education deals with families, puberty and physical changes, bullying, friendships and how to make "healthy" choices when it comes to sex and sexuality. Teachers are encouraged to use examples from magazines aimed at teenagers in the lessons to spark debate.

A spokeswoman said: "Using magazines and newspaper articles enables teachers to engage pupils in PSHE lessons in a relevant and exciting way to ensure that they have the information that they need to make informed choices throughout life." She added that suggestions children should look forward to later nights out and wearing make-up as they became teenagers was designed to highlight the positive aspects of adolescents'

from Guardian 'New sex education guidelines released' November 04 2005

'Nevertheless, Britain has the second highest teenage birth rate in the developed world, according to a report from the United Nations (2002)
The United States is the only country with a higher proportion of teenage mothers, with 52 per 1000 compared with 32/1000 in the United Kingdom. The lowest birth rates were found in Korea, Japan, Switzerland, the Netherlands, and Sweden, where less than 7 girls per 1000 gave birth.'

British Medical Journal

It's not a 'simple' issue but one that the tabloid press and posters here seem to want to regard in that way.

Maybe one factor is

Sexualizing Childhood

'Children today are inundated with media and marketing that use sex to sell products. Embedded in these sexualized images are harmful messages that equate personal value with sexual appeal and turn sex into a commodity. Movies, music, TV programs, video games, and even toys marketed to children are rife with degrading images that objectify and sexualize girls and woman. Boys are also affected when sex is commodified, presented in the context of harmful stereotypes, and intertwined with power and violence.

Sexualized media and marketing can actively interfere with adolescents' healthy sexual development and promote risky behavior. Today, even young children are internalizing sexualized images and appropriating sexualized behavior—long before they are able to understand what it means to be a sexual being.'

from Campaign for a Commercial Free Childhood

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 10:35 PM

"Sexualized media and marketing can actively interfere with adolescents' healthy sexual development and promote risky behavior. "

Exactly !

Thanks Emma B

Catol B ... saint John N.B. has the highest teenage pregnancy rate in Canada .... extensive sex education in the schools and community centres is provided ... sex education including the responiblities of being a parent included in the program. These programs does not curb the high pregnancy rate here.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 10:47 PM

Obama would take a "pro-active course that would make things worse". Since, of course, that remark is is not-- yet another-- smear, I'm sure the poster wouldn't mind giving us specific examples of how Obama's pro-active course would make things worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 10:48 PM

Sexualizing Childhood - great point
This reminds me of the American culture of beauty pageants, starting as young as infants. Yet another program will soon air on this subject, a follow up 12 years later to the girls documented in "Painted Babies".
click for Painted Babies part one youtube

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 11:24 PM

Just watching the first nine minutes, Alice, and it is sick. Thanks for posting it.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 11:36 PM

They go so far as to buy a false tooth plate to cover where the five year old has lost her teeth, in order to keep her "pretty smile." I cannot imagine being a grandmother or parent and condoning this!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 01:01 AM

From the LA Times:

Selecting Sarah Palin, who was touted all summer by Rush Limbaugh, is no way to attract most women, including die-hard Clinton supporters. Palin shares nothing but a chromosome with Clinton. Her down-home, divisive and deceptive speech did nothing to cosmeticize a Republican convention that has more than twice as many male delegates as female, a presidential candidate who is owned and operated by the right wing and a platform that opposes pretty much everything Clinton's candidacy stood for -- and that Barack Obama's still does. To vote in protest for McCain/Palin would be like saying, "Somebody stole my shoes, so I'll amputate my legs."

This is not to beat up on Palin. I defend her right to be wrong, even on issues that matter most to me. I regret that people say she can't do the job because she has children in need of care, especially if they wouldn't say the same about a father. I get no pleasure from imagining her in the spotlight on national and foreign policy issues about which she has zero background, with one month to learn to compete with Sen. Joe Biden's 37 years' experience.

Palin has been honest about what she doesn't know. When asked last month about the vice presidency, she said, "I still can't answer that question until someone answers for me: What is it exactly that the VP does every day?" When asked about Iraq, she said, "I haven't really focused much on the war in Iraq."

She was elected governor largely because the incumbent was unpopular, and she's won over Alaskans mostly by using unprecedented oil wealth to give a $1,200 rebate to every resident. Now she is being praised by McCain's campaign as a tax cutter, despite the fact that Alaska has no state income or sales tax. Perhaps McCain has opposed affirmative action for so long that he doesn't know it's about inviting more people to meet standards, not lowering them. Or perhaps McCain is following the Bush administration habit, as in the Justice Department, of putting a job candidate's views on "God, guns and gays" ahead of competence. The difference is that McCain is filling a job one 72-year-old heartbeat away from the presidency.

So let's be clear: The culprit is John McCain. He may have chosen Palin out of change-envy, or a belief that women can't tell the difference between form and content, but the main motive was to please right-wing ideologues; the same ones who nixed anyone who is now or ever has been a supporter of reproductive freedom. If that were not the case, McCain could have chosen a woman who knows what a vice president does and who has thought about Iraq; someone like Texas Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison or Sen. Olympia Snowe of Maine. McCain could have taken a baby step away from right-wing patriarchs who determine his actions, right down to opposing the Violence Against Women Act.
...

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: meself
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 01:55 AM

("saint John N.B. has the highest teenage pregnancy rate in Canada" - hate to be annoying, but I'm always a little skeptical of these sorts of statements - any particular source?)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Goose Gander
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 03:05 AM

I feel like I've drifted into a dreamworld where John Waters gets to pick the VP. Oh, wait, I'm in the US - that explains it.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 03:50 AM

From: Michael Morris
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 03:05 AM

I feel like I've drifted into a dreamworld where John Waters gets to pick the VP. Oh, wait, I'm in the US - that explains it.

Frankly, I'm surprised that the two didn't try to get Hannah Montana to run with them, to get votes. They would have tried Britney,....but she has accomplished too much!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 06:28 AM

The internet is a wonderful place and many statements of 'fact' here can be confirmed or refuted from the official documents made available.
The Canadian Journal of Human Sexuality gives the teen pregnancy rates per thousand from the CANSIM database 1974-2003 here

In 1999 43 out of 1000 births in St John NB were to teens.
The source for this information is from the Caledon Istitute of Social Policy May 2005 which also identifies st John as one of Canada's poorest cities with a falling population and corresponding tax base and high concentrations of low-income residents in inner city neighbourhoods

In addition to the early sexualization of children, poverty and deprivation, poor educational achievement and low expectations have all been identified as key factors contributing to high rates of teenage pregnancy.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 07:53 AM

Thanks Emma B.

meself ... I should note that I live in Saint John ... right in the southend penninsula which is a unique community in Canada in that it is populated by the poorest (and believe me they are poor) and the most wealthiest in Saint John. I am very involved in community affairs here and I am quite aware about the blight of teenage pregnancies. I also can verify that all the sex education, awareness programs etc will not prevent it from happening.

With all the finger pointing going on here in the Mudcat, blogs, media etc regarding this BIG election I find it interesting with all the crap and spinning (and constant repetitive respinning) people are digging up on the candidates .... let's face the fact that any person who is elected to public office you will and can always dig up every mistake, every wrong policy they voted for, and every misquote.

Much like the Monday morning quaterbacks, the my team is better than your team, or betters still ... my God is better than your God because .....

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 08:15 AM

Alaska trooper's union files an ethics complaint against Palin
Investigation sought into possible breach of confidential files


ANCHORAGE, Alaska - The union representing state Trooper Mike Wooten has filed an ethics complaint against Gov. Sarah Palin and members of her administration charging a possible unlawful breach of Wooten's confidential personnel and workers' compensation files.

It's the latest twist in what has become the subject of global media scrutiny -- whether Palin, the newly minted Republican vice presidential candidate, abused her powers as governor to try to drive her former brother-in-law out of the trooper ranks.

Palin and her family have accused Wooten, who was involved in a messy divorce with the governor's sister, of a variety of misdeeds such as threatening her family and drinking while driving his patrol car. Palin insists she didn't use the trooper's continued employment as an excuse to fire a member of her cabinet, Walt Monegan, who supervised the troopers as commissioner of public safety.

Interest in what has become known as "troopergate" is attracting huge attention because of Palin's rocketing political fortunes.

John Cyr, executive director of the Public Safety Employees Association, said Thursday a British media organization has offered Wooten $30,000 for an interview.

"Mike Wooten is not accepting those offers," Cyr said.

But Wooten did an interview Thursday for CNN television anchor Anderson Cooper for a story to air soon, and that's the only interview Wooten plans to do, Cyr said.

The union this week lodged an ethics complaint with the attorney general's office asking for an investigation into whether Palin or her aides tapped Wooten's confidential personnel and workers' compensation files and disclosed information in an effort to jeopardize Wooten's job.

The complaint focuses on Palin aide Frank Bailey, who in February called a trooper commander on a recorded phone line and said the governor and her husband, Todd, were wondering why Wooten was "still representing the department."

On the recording, Bailey makes reference to Wooten "lying on his application," and also possibly making a false workers' compensation claim.

The trooper commander, Lt. Rodney Dial, replied to Bailey: "Frank, where did you get that information from?" Dial added that such information "a lot of times is extremely confidential."

Bailey replied: "Well, I'm a little bit reluctant to say ... ."

Palin has said Bailey's phone call was wrong and that he wasn't directed to make it. She has suspended Bailey with pay.

Thomas Van Flein, an Anchorage attorney representing the governor, said Thursday he couldn't discuss or even acknowledge a new ethics complaint.

However, he provided two documents that were produced to support the governor's own request earlier this week for a state Personnel Board investigation into the Wooten affair.

The documents are depositions that Van Flein's law firm conducted with Bailey and with another state official, Mike Monagle, who supervises workers' comp cases. Both denied they improperly accessed Wooten's files at the behest of the governor's office.


http://news.bostonherald.com/news/2008/view.bg?articleid=1117219&srvc=2008campaign&position=13

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 08:32 AM

Since she's running for office in the US, we can use research and statistics that pertain directly to US teens...


Comprehensive sex ed may cut teen birth rate

NEW YORK - Comprehensive sex education that includes discussion of birth control may help reduce teen pregnancies, while abstinence-only programs seem to fall short, the results of a U.S. survey suggest.

Using data from a 2002 national survey, researchers found that among more than 1,700 unmarried, heterosexual teens between 15 and 19 years old, those who'd received comprehensive sex ed in school were 60 percent less likely to have been pregnant or gotten someone pregnant than teens who'd had no formal sex education.

Meanwhile, there was no clear benefit from abstinence-only education in preventing pregnancy or delaying sexual intercourse, the researchers report in the Journal of Adolescent Health.

The study found that teens who'd been through abstinence-only programs were less likely than those who'd received no sex ed to have been pregnant. However, the difference was not significant in statistical terms, which means the finding could have been due to chance.

In addition, there was no evidence that comprehensive sex education increased the likelihood of teen sex or boosted rates of sexually transmitted diseases (STDs) — a concern of people who oppose teaching birth control in schools.

While comprehensive sex ed did not clearly reduce the STD risk, there was a modest, but statistically insignificant reduced risk of engaging in sex. The abstinence-only approach had no effect on either factor, the researchers found.

"The bottom line is that there is strong evidence that comprehensive sex education is more effective than abstinence-only education at preventing teen pregnancies," said lead researcher Pamela K. Kohler, of the Center for AIDS and STD at the University of Washington in Seattle.

She told Reuters Health the study "also solidly debunks the myth that teens who learn about birth control are more likely to have sex."

Currently, the federal government champions the abstinence-only approach, giving around $170 million each year to states and community groups to teach kids to say no to sex. This funding precludes mention of birth control and condoms, unless it is to emphasize their failure rates.

Critics have long pointed out that studies have failed to show that abstinence-only education delays sex or lowers rates of teen pregnancy.

The current study is the first to compare the effects of comprehensive sex ed and abstinence-only education in a national survey, Kohler noted.

Of the teens in the study, two thirds said they had received comprehensive sex education, while about one quarter had had abstinence-only courses. Just under 10 percent said they'd received no formal sex education.

There is now a body of evidence showing that the comprehensive approach may cut the odds of teen pregnancy, without increasing the likelihood of teens having sex, according to Kohler.

However, she added, "there seems to be a gap between scientific evidence and policy change."

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 08:33 AM

Forgot the link...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23782717/

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 08:51 AM

In regards to Trooper Mike Wooten, he is 36 years old married 4 times, has many infractions against him as a Alaska State trooper ( I think drinking on the job is one), has been accused for tasering his young son, and uttering death threats against his father-in-law ... he certainly isn't Mr. Clean Machine policman.

In regards to teen pregnancies ... it's outta control in our western North American society ... much like you can educate the population all you want about the dangers of drugs and the number of addicts is still getting out of control.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 09:02 AM

Here's a bit more information about Palin's church. Since Obama has been raked over the coals for Rev. Wright's remarks, it seems obvious she should have to answer questions about the division between church and state.

WSJ 4 Sept 2008--quotes directly from the article

This is an article about Wasilla Assembly of God, the church Palen attended til 2002, when she joined another church which is evangelical and nondenominational.

First of all, it appears the earlier quote about Palen stating that the Iraq war is God's will is inaccurate:

Complete quote ( from a visit by Palen to her old church, on stage before a youth group, June 2008): "Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right also for this country. (Pray) "that our national leaders are sending them out on a task that is from God. That's what we have to make sure we're praying for; that there is a plan and that plan is God's plan."

Obviously this allows doubt that it may not be God's plan.

But as David Gushee, a Christian ethicist at Mercer University in Atlanta says he is troubled that a public official might presume that government action could be God's intent: "I would never think it is appropriate for describe the actions of the United States military or strategies of our commanders as a plan from God".

She needs to be asked to clarify her views on this.

The real problem is her church's views on the "end times"--a church she worshipped at for more than 20 years.   The "end times" of course are "the days preceding a world-ending cataclysm bringing Christian redemption and the second coming of Jesus."

Mr. Gushee notes in this article that Gov. Palin should explain her beliefs concerning the inevitability of a cataclysm and the end of time: "To me, it is highly relevant to someone who potentially has her hand on the nuclear button. If that is her worldview, I would want to know about that."

That's putting it modestly.

The pastor of Wasilla Assembly of God says GWB was put into office by God: "I believe criticisms come from hell. God has placed this man in authority...You criticize the authority, you're literally bringing in hell with the criticism."

I think she should be asked if this is her belief also.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 09:08 AM

Number 6 is correct. I mentioned earlier that Wooten is no prize. Question still remains as to if she exerted improper influence to remove him, whether she punished somebody who refused to do so, and whether her alleged interference was due to Wooten's treatment of her sister. The investigation goes on.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 09:12 AM

"to describe the actions..."

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 09:17 AM

Whether or not Wooten was not a nice guy is irrelevant to the question of whether or not Palin abused her power. Especially if she committed an unlawful breach of confidential personnel and workers' compensation files.

And on the subject of the teen birth rate... if studies show that comprehensive sex education reduces teen pregnancies, and if teen pregnancies are already too numerous, and if it is shown that abstinence only sex education doesn't lower the teen birth rate at all, then it would be pretty stupid to give up on comprehensive sex education and replace it with abstinence only sex ed.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 09:28 AM

I don't know about you, but I am feeling increasingly suspicious that even FOX news, on rare occaisions, is becoming slightly skewed toward certain agendas.
They said that it is reasonable to ask questions about Sarah Palin's life and personal history.

ABSOLUTELY NOT. Its nobody's business but her own. She has a right to privacy like anyone else.


The attacks of the eastern liberal elitist MEDIA on Sarah B. Palin disgracefully shoot first and ask questions later.

It has been revealed that the central pillar and FOUNDATION of the snobby elite left wing media is the scurolous magazine called 'Us Weekly', which printed scathing lies about; a beloved mother, Govenor, Mayor, celebrity, muck raking, moose shooting, God fearing, faith based energy reformer, who is loved and known to us all as Sarah B. Palin.


Back off left wing media! Us Weekly subscriptions have been canceled and Christian soldiers are removing it from library shelves and stores.

After we take down US "Weakly" magazine, with God's will, we will deal with all of 'US Weekly's fringe organizations like the New York Times and Washington Post.


My name is Dawn Mauve Oralshoot
and I approve this message, Amen




for the Onion.
(who has never written me back... ever)
that alone is a hallmark of good taste and quality.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 09:51 AM

"A steady stream of hate propaganda shapes people's beliefs and their actions. It makes them bomb buses, crash planes into buildings, blow themselves up in markets, shoot people, ethnic cleanse, start wars... the problem is the hateful beliefs that motivate people to destroy others. "

Alice.



yes that is part of the truncated story, and why do they do that?

there is a shitload of money in the oppresion of others which will inspire yet more affirmation and/or dissent.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 10:25 AM

Wow!...With all the articles posted about teen pregnancies, you'd think that the same people posting them shouldn't have argued, so vehemently,
with me, in regards to morals, and self control...but here they are, pointing fingers, and smearing someone, by taking the other side of their own argument!..What a bunch of hypocrites!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 10:37 AM

Pointing out that comprehensive sex ed is a better way to prevent teen pregnancies than abstinence-based sex ed is not in any way a smear. And since the discussion on the other thread was brought up, my stance on this thread in regards to birth control is exactly the same as my stance on that other thread was. Which is that the way to take responsibility is to use birth control.

However, the question on the other thread wasn't whether or not a lot of teenagers are having irresponsible sex. The question was whether or not most women who use birth control are being responsible. And the answer is that they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 10:40 AM

The assumption made on the other thread was that most women who rely on birth control are immoral and irresponsible. That is a specious argument, and has nothing whatever to do with the subject of teen pregnancies.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 10:53 AM

'Most women??" No, it wasn't. We also discussed teen abortions, birth control etc. vs morality. You are changing your tune, and pointing fingers! However we need not drag up that heated discussion again on this thread. Needless to say, 'people' should adopt a position on this matter and stick to it, not use it 'as needed' to find fault at one person, while justifying it to another!!! At least Palin stuck to her beliefs, about abortion, even when it may have been in her political interest not to. Sorry about her daughter, but as you pointed out, in the other thread, teenagers are going to do what they are going to do, and trying to control them was either wrong, or useless.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 10:54 AM

I am all for fighting back in the face of absurdity for a change... HOWEVER

The Rove strategy is always to attack the strengths of the opponent and where ever possible make opponent supporters angry.

Whenever possible I try to interject satire to lighen things up
but I suggest the best strategy in the midst of wild and stupid accusations,
is to use a surprised tone with an understanding smile.
(the way we do with kids who are upset)

If you feed the angry Rove dog, it will bite.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 11:05 AM

If Palin won 'Miss Congeniality'

Imagine what the rest were like ;<\


It is typical for the VP candidate to be the attack dog but
so far she is still merely repeating excerpts of GWB's speech writer.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 11:15 AM

Please show me where I have pointed any fingers in this thread on the subject of teen pregnancies.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 11:16 AM

In fact, please show me where I have made any judgement whatever about Palin's daughter being pregnant.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 11:27 AM

spe·cious       /ˈspiʃəs/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[spee-shuhs] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1.        apparently good or right though lacking real merit; superficially pleasing or plausible: specious arguments.
2.        pleasing to the eye but deceptive.
3.        Obsolete. pleasing to the eye; fair.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 11:30 AM

I find it curious that the Repubs have demonized "sex education" and "family planning" as yet more Dem/commie conspiracy...

And here we have Plain's daughter, age 17, preganat and unmarried and Palin herself, age 44, with a recently born Down's Symdrome baby???

Now either of these two facts by themselves might be just as Americana as apple pie but seems that both Palin and her daughter could have used a little more on the education side of family planning and a little less on the side of idealopgy... But, hey, she makes a quarter million a year which should haelp ease the financial burdens but the problem is that not everyone makes a quarter million a year and, regarless of the right wings atred of education, the country on the whole needs to be informed...

(But, Bobert, it's a "personal choice", isn't it???)

Well, yeah... It is... But when folks make persoanl choices with no eductaion or understanding they tend to make bad ones and in the case of lots of peiople without Palin's financial means it's the taxpayers will inevitably end up carring the load for these ill-informed decisions...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 11:36 AM

Specious -

3: having a false look of truth or genuineness

(Since I'm the one who used the word, I get to decide which meaning I intended.)

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/specious


But perhaps I was being overly kind.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 11:45 AM

Speaking of education, Bobert, you can at least use your spell checker.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 11:52 AM

Carol, (Since I'm the one who used the word, I get to decide which meaning I intended.) Right! Freedom of choice...Palin used hers, so what's all the fuss???....oooops...I think we got confused, freedom of choice wasn't used for freedom to kill(abortion)...she chose!..so did her daughter...You or I may or may not agree with that choice...but, like its HER choice, not your, or anyone else..and none of our business, right??? Choice!
Now let's all gang up and sling mud at her for her choice.......that's the hypocritical rub!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 11:54 AM

Donuel, great post re' anger and Rove!

...to teach kids to say no to sex. This funding precludes mention of birth control and condoms, unless it is to emphasize their failure rates.

That is exactly why the just say no teachings don't work...they still don't teach kids anything about how to prevent pregnancy and/or the passing on of STDs.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 11:57 AM

Once again, please show me where I have expressed any opinion or judgement or made any kind of fuss whatsoever about Palin's daughter being pregnant.

(hint - it's not possible to show me where I did this because it never happened)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 12:05 PM

Carol, I would suggest a shunning of guest. It doesn't matter what any of us say, she will post her contrary vitriolic no matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 12:18 PM

I don't think this one is a she. I think this is a different one.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: meself
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 12:25 PM

"In 1999 43 out of 1000 births in St John NB were to teens."

The chart on p. 158 of The Canadian Journal of Human Sexuality linked to above would seem to indicate that that is, if not below, certainly not above the national average. The same article puts NB as a whole below the national average.

I have no bone to pick with bILL's general point - but as I say, I'm always skeptical about statements that begin with, "[Such-and-such a community - usually one that the speaker lives in or has lived in] has the highest rate of ... " I live in a community which, according to popular wisdom, has "the highest rate of AIDS in the country". I've been told this by 'professionals' as well as by the uneducated. No one, however, has been able to cite any source for this supposed bit of information ... They all seem quite convinced of its validity, though.

Sorry for the thread drift. I'll drop the matter now.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 12:36 PM

No, not her choice. Her parent's choice. The shotgun wedding participants show the man's unwillingness to be a part of this ruse.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: pdq
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 12:44 PM

From a post by Carol C:

"Using data from a 2002 national survey, researchers found that among more than 1,700 unmarried, heterosexual teens between 15 and 19 years old, those who'd received comprehensive sex ed in school were 60 percent less likely to have been pregnant or gotten someone pregnant than teens who'd had no formal sex education."

Remember, this is not a scientific study and should not be taken that way. It is sociology and the professor should be found working in the Liberal Arts Building, near philosophers and such.

To be scientific, there must be strict controls on the membership in the groups studied. No such controls in this one. Actually. the only valid test would be to know what the exact same kids would do with formal school-based sex education and what the same exact kids would do without it. That, of course, is not possible.

"The study found that teens who'd been through abstinence-only programs were less likely than those who'd received no sex ed to have been pregnant. However, the difference was not significant in statistical terms, which means the finding could have been due to chance."

This implies that there is a formal school-based, professionally-taught course in sex education where abstinance-only is taught. I seriously doubt that. Anybody got proof? All the sex education programs I have heard about are aimed at birth control techniques and assume that all student will be having sex in the near future.

BTW, some of these mandatory classes in public schools may have the teacher make your shy 13 year old daughter walk up in front of the class, unpack a condom, and unroll it onto a cucumber in order to get a passing grade. Is this what schools are for? Do the opinions of parents matter anymore? Just asking.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 01:46 PM

There is an email letter Snopes has investigated, calling the person in Alaska who wrote it. The email is truly written by the person who signed it, Anne Kilkenny, a Wasilla resident who has known Palin since 1992.

She wrote the email and sent it out to about 40 friends and relatives, 2 days after Palin was chosen, and now it has spread across the internet. Her first reason for writing it was that she believes in voters being fully informed. It's too long to quote here.

The Link:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/kilkenny.asp

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 02:08 PM

Read the letter. It sounds like a typical American politician. A nice guy wouldn't get to first base in American politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 02:12 PM

Palin as a True Believer.

The letter makes a balanced report which reveals her opportunism. That's to be expected, but not virtuous.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 02:52 PM

Judith Warner on the Femmecapades of the RNC;;

"Could there be a more thoroughgoing humiliation for America's women?

You are not, I think, supposed now to say this. Just as, I am sure, you are certainly not supposed to feel that having Sarah Palin put forth as the Republicans' first female vice presidential candidate is just about as respectful a gesture toward women as was John McCain's suggestion, last month, that his wife participate in a topless beauty contest.

Such thoughts, we are told, are sexist. And elitist. After all, via Palin, we now hear without cease, the People are speaking. The "real" "authentic," small-town "Everyday People," of Hockey Moms and Blue Collar Dads whom even Rudolph Giuliani now invokes as an antidote to the cosmopolite Obamas and their backers in the liberal media. (Remind me please, once again, what was the name of the small town where Rudy grew up?)

Why does this woman – who to some of us seems as fake as they can come, with her delicate infant son hauled out night after night under the klieg lights and her pregnant teenage daughter shamelessly instrumentalized for political purposes — deserve, to a unique extent among political women, to rank as so "real"?

Because the Republicans, very clearly, believe that real people are idiots. This disdain for their smarts shows up in the whole way they've cast this race now, turning a contest over economic and foreign policy into a culture war of the Real vs. the Elites. It's a smoke and mirrors game aimed at diverting attention from the fact that the party's tax policies have helped create an elite that's more distant from "the people" than ever before. And from the fact that the party's dogged allegiance to up-by-your-bootstraps individualism — an individualism exemplified by Palin, the frontierswoman who somehow has managed to "balance" five children and her political career with no need for support — is leading to a culture-wide crack-up....".

(NYT)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Greg B
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 03:22 PM

Well, she may be the governor with a quarter-million dollar income
but it's been obvious from the start that you can take 'em outta
the double-wide, but you can't always take the double-wide outta
them.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 04:11 PM

Well put, Greg...

Seems that America has been dumbed down to the pount where even educated journalist have to dance with these morons if they want to keep their jobs...

Sad commentary on American when a Roller Derbt Queen gets nominated to VP and could very well end up the president of the most powerfull country in the world...

I know... Only in America... Why, it's the dream of every Roller Derby Queen to run the entire show... That's what makes 'um Roller Derby Queens in the first place.. They love the attention...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 04:14 PM

Man, I ain't never done "888" before... Kinda cool...

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 04:21 PM

Slate has a survey:

"John McCain's choice of Alaska governor Sarah Palin as his running mate has thrown the political world into a tizzy. With apologies to our long-suffering GOP readers for largely disenfranchising them from yet another poll, let's savor the upside of McCain's decision.        
What's the uppest upside of the Palin choice?

A:Best. Reality. Show. Ever. From the unplanned pregnancy to the "I'm a fucking redneck" boyfriend who "doesn't want kids" to the husband's DUI to the in-law custody scandal, it all makes for trash TV that's irresistibly watchable. (28%)

B: The unilateral disarming by McCain. Contradicting his strongest argument (experience), undermining his strongest claim (judgment) and spotlighting his greatest weakness (age), the maverick thing isn't working out so well lately. Suddenly 72 looks a lot scarier. (56%)

C: The unleashing of the Dogs of Press. New and old media media have joined hands as they do what every fiber of their being tells them to: vet the hell out of the new kid. Stay tuned: more to come. (14%)


Gut call on Palin
Will withdraw ~28%        ~ Will lose the election 58%          Will win the election ~15%

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 04:59 PM

D. The resurgence of Roller Derby on prime time TV. (8%)

Will get pregnant while in office and John McCain will get dragged into a paternity suit- 8%

Man, 8's is my lucky number today...

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 06:44 PM

Timothy Noah, in a summation of impressions on Slate:

What interests me today about Palin's speech, however, isn't its predictable reception. Rather, it's the cognitive dissonance of the following passage:
[W]hen the cloud of rhetoric has passed; when the roar of the crowd fades away; when the stadium lights go out, and those styrofoam Greek columns are hauled back to some studio lot—what exactly is our opponent's plan? What does he actually seek to accomplish, after he's done turning back the waters and healing the planet? The answer is to make government bigger—take more of your money—give you more orders from Washington …

The woman who made this complaint about big government taking your money is the governor of Alaska. Please take a moment to look at this U.S. Census chart showing federal-government expenditures, per capita, in the 50 states. You will observe that Alaska receives about $14,000 per citizen from the federal government. That's more than any other state, and a good $4,000 more than every other state except Virginia, Maryland, New Mexico, and North Dakota. The chart is from the Census Bureau's Consolidated Federal Funds Report for Fiscal Year 2005. I skipped over the 2006 report, the most recent one available, because Hurricane Katrina put Louisiana and Mississippi ahead of Alaska that year. But that's an anomaly. Alaska held the per-capita record for sucking on the federal teat in 2004, 2003, 2002, 2001, and 2000. According to the nonprofit Tax Foundation, Alaska gets back $1.84 for every dollar it pays into the U.S. Treasury—even though Alaska enjoys a higher per-capita income than 34 of the 50 states. This is a state that preaches right-wing libertarianism while it practices middle-class socialism.

Palin has not bucked this venerable tradition. It's been widely reported that even though Palin came out against the federally funded, $223 million "bridge to nowhere," a wasteful Alaska earmark (and one she'd supported before it created an uproar in Congress), Alaska ended up receiving the same amount of federal money as transportation funds to be spent at the state's own discretion. When Palin was mayor of Wasilla, she hired the former chief of staff to Sen. Ted Stevens, the recently indicted dean of the Alaska congressional delegation, to lobby for the town (pop. 6,700)—which, as a result, wound up receiving nearly $27 million in federal earmarks over four years. As governor, Palin just this past February sent Stevens a memo outlining $200 million in new funding requests. Granted,

Palin enjoys inexplicably warm relations with the secessionist Alaska Independence Party, whose founder's anti-Americanism, Rosa Brooks points out in the Los Angeles Times, puts Rev. Jeremiah Wright in the shade. ("The fires of hell are frozen glaciers compared to my hatred for the American government," he told an interviewer in 1991—a year when Republicans controlled the White House and U.S. troops went into battle to free Kuwait from Iraqi occupation.) But there's little real danger that Alaska would ever choose to secede from the Lower 48. Independence would cost it too much in lost federal revenue.

A pit bull with lipstick? I'd describe Palin as a hog who recommends diet books while feeding at the trough.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 06:56 PM

That Judith Warner piece is beautifully written.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 07:18 PM

Chicago Tribune:

"By Jessica Reaves
September 7, 2008
Sarah Palin is a woman. Hillary Clinton is a woman. Women just love voting for other women. Women candidates are interchangeable. Therefore, women who would have voted for Clinton are obviously going to vote for Palin.

If this syllogism strikes you as stupid, that's because it is. Not to mention cynical and not a little bit sexist. Yet it also appears to be one of the reasons behind John McCain's choice of a running mate.

Oh, lots of alternative explanations for his decision are floating around: McCain chose Palin because her staunch anti-abortion stance bolsters his case among Christian conservatives; he chose her because she personifies youthful energy while he, well, doesn't. Possibly the Palin decision was a big Bronx cheer meant for strategist Karl Rove, who pushed hard for Mitt Romney (over Joe Lieberman, McCain's rumored first choice). Then again, maybe the Republican candidate for president of the United States plucked his running mate from relative obscurity because he's desperate for the moose-hunting vote. (But really, who isn't?)

Setting aside for a moment the political clout of America's moose-hunting bloc, let's take a closer look at one of the more plausible reasons behind McCain's peculiar pick: He's tipping his cap and winking at disconsolate Clinton supporters, hoping he'll pick up a few all-important Lady Votes from the pool of Still Undecideds who monitored last week's events in Denver but remain unconverted—and unconvinced.
,,,"

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Barry Finn
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 08:10 PM

Bobert
I mentioned somewhere (maybe above) that Hucksterberryy & McFlame both were dissing Harvard, that was a start for dissing the intellengence of Obama & intellegent political contestants in general, paving the way for idiots, but we didn't need the way to be paved both Bush's plowed that road already, trail blazers that they are. As for anyone that would deny education (saying no is not education!), in any field or area, shows a complete lack of education in themselves. Nancy Reagan brought about "Just Say No" (got her nowhere). So the country refused to educate the nation about AIDS, just say no has not helped the nation's drug problems at all but education does as it did with fighting AIDS. So now we have another idiot who believes that JUST SAYING NO will be the most effective way to prevent "kids having kids". "I've got news for you Sarah, it didn't work for you & it didn't work for your kid, educate & school yourself on what you know nothing about before you look to direct the nation on our short comings. We all need better, affordable & easy access to a higher education, thank you" we don't need more breeding centers!

Is this what the republicans really think of "We The People"? Are we really just cannon fodder & scum sucking trailer trash? We are if we vote this lot in & if they do get in they work their hardest to dumb US down even farther.

Palin's veiw of education is plain & simple, like what she thinks & potrays herself to be. She didn't go very far & doesn't think that it's all it's cracked up to be. And why shouldn't she think any better of education, she didn't need much of it herself but she had just enough so she can't she where she's lacking, she doesn't believe in the sciences, I wonder if she ever took a course? With all the evidence & info on climate warming she has the nerve to insult every educated study in the field. We have a new "Village Idiot", this is very much like more of the same. I say "no Thank You to Sarah".

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 08:19 PM

Exactly, Barry...

This all started with Daddy Bush who perfected the intellectual bashing that has led to people being proud to be part of the uneductaed... I mean, it's cool to not have a friggin' clue...

And we wonder why we have such a high rate of high scool drop out, teen preganancy and the same ol' intellectual bashers in charge getting elected by people who are just barely trainable to go into a voting booth and not mess that up... Which of course to the right wing means messing it up big time as these folks vote over and over against their own interests...

Thank you, Daddy Bush, for pushing America down that slippery slope toward the abyss...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 08:27 PM

Since Bobert brought up how tough Obama was to work in south Chicago, and feels comfortable with "but it's been obvious from the start that you can take 'em outta
the double-wide, but you can't always take the double-wide outta
them." being used to describe a candidate, I would like to offer up the following for discussion:


It's been obvious from the start that you can take 'em outta
the 'hood, but you can't always take the 'hood outta
them. You can dress em up real nice and teach them to talk fancy, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 08:59 PM

I think Reagan was the first to popularize the dumbing down of the electorate.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 09:03 PM

"It's been obvious from the start that you can take 'em outta
the 'hood, but you can't always take the 'hood outta
them. You can dress em up real nice and teach them to talk fancy, though."

Hell, BB, people have been saying specist stuff like that about Chongo since the very first day of his candidacy, despite his fine record of crime-fighting on the streets of Chicago and his excellent taste in headgear.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 09:04 PM

900

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Barry Finn
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 09:06 PM

900

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Barry Finn
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 09:07 PM

"BOBERT!!"

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 09:10 PM

I think Reagan was the first to popularize the dumbing down of the electorate.

You got it half right--he was also responsible for dumbing down the presidency!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 09:15 PM

Yes, and prior to that he even helped to dumb down Hollywood acting!!!!

What a guy, eh? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 09:53 PM

Sound like BB is resorting to slightly veiled insults, to me.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 10:10 PM

or making a comment about the not so veiled insults others post...

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: SINSULL
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 10:30 PM

Remember the good old days when they thought women would vote for Dan Quayle because he was a Robert Redford look-alike until Robert Redford threatened to sue?

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 12:08 AM

LOL - Reagan was a renaissance man.   ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 12:12 AM

That email that Snopes validated may have answered a question that I was having trouble with. Considering all of the other things about her record and history that she has been caught fabricating (which is most of it), I really didn't feel that her claim to have been a "reformer" passed the smell test at all, but I was having some difficulty figuring out the angle. Nothing added up. With the information in that email, it all fits together like a jigsaw puzzle.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 12:35 AM

I am in NO way defending Palin, but let's try to keep out of generalising, even though it sounded great!:-) I once lived in a mobile home and I brush my hair, my teeth, I even take a bath on a regular basis! And, my sis even lived in a double-wide!

Out here, in the West, folks are gettin' real fancy with them things...retirees are spending big money on 'em. Take a look at this new magazine about them: Upwardly Mobile Home...some of the ones featured in it run into the gazillions, the movie star beach home ones!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: meself
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 01:21 AM

Oh - so that double-wide business is an expression of contempt for the poor ... And that sort of attitude is supposed to encourage people to vote Democrat?

Some of the snobbery that shows up on this forum is really disheartening.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Goose Gander
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 02:35 AM

So here we are in the most successful economy in the history of the world, in the most powerful empire of all time, and good gawd what slim pickin's for POTUS . . . well, I wish I was a mole in the ground . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 03:23 AM

Palin endorses Flintstones since men and dinos lived together.
A mere 5,000 years ago picture

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 06:47 AM

'When Barack's berserkers lost the plot'

.....instead of following a measured strategy, they went berserk. On the one hand, the media treated her as a sex object. The New York Times led the way in painting Palin as a glamour-puss in go-go boots you were more likely to find in an Anchorage lap-dancing club than the Alaska governor's office

On the other, liberal journalists turned her family into an object of sexual disgust: inbred rednecks who had stumbled out of Deliverance.
Palin was meant to be pretending that a handicapped baby girl was her child when really it was her wanton teenage daughter's.

When that turned out to be a lie, the media replaced it with prurient coverage of her teenage daughter, who was, after all, pregnant, even though her mother was not going to do a quick handover at the maternity ward and act as if the child was hers

When a hate campaign goes wrong, however, disaster follows. And everything that could go wrong with the campaign against Palin did. American liberals forgot that the public did not know her. By the time she spoke at the Republican convention, journalists had so lowered expectations that a run-of-the-mill speech would have been enough to win the evening.

Journalists who believe in women's equality should not spread sexual smears about a candidate, or snigger at her teenage daughter's pregnancy, or declare that a mother with a young family cannot hold down a responsible job for the pragmatic reason that they will look like gross hypocrites if they do


In an age when politics is choreographed, voters watch out for the moments when the public-relations facade breaks down and venom pours through the cracks.
Their judgment is rarely favourable when it does.
Barack Obama knows it.
All last week, he was warning American liberals to stay away from the Palin family.

He understands better than his supporters that it is not a politician's enemies who lose elections, but his friends.'

Recommended reading from the 'liberal' Observer today

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 08:07 AM

Emma,

With friends who act like Bobert and Amos, even a candidate as qualified as Obama can snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

I have stated your point several times, but since it comes from a source that they disagree with, they have not changed their methods.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 08:15 AM

Don't blame us, bb...

Racism is alive and well in America... If Obama was this white, young, articulate guy then McCain would have to spend resources in the South, which McCain really isn't doing... He knows what's what...

No, it's more like "if Obama wins he is snatching victory from the jaws of racists..." That is the real deal... Everyone knows it even if they don't want to talk about it...

Maybe that is why we are seeing more and more defacto segregation in sommunities thru out the south and midwest thru all kinds of borderline Jim Crow schemes...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 08:30 AM

Anyone visited this museum? http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2008/04/04/robert-fulford-on-the-creation-museum-and-fundamentalism


An exhibit with a dinosaur with a saddle?

Neat:)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 10:04 AM

Emma B, I realize that you read that expository but I wonder what 'Barack's Berserkers' that Nick Cohen reads? I think it is a far, far over the top accusation of what actually happened or is happening.

Methinks he is selling papers.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 10:08 AM

Emma B thank you for the idea of using Deliverence as an editorial cartoon.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 10:24 AM

sigh you people really are scraping the barrel - why don't you take up Gregs description too Donuel while you're at it?

Will someone just listen to people like Joe Offer or are you detirmined to go on a hate rampage?

If this is what the supporters of the possible next president of the US represent heaven help the rest of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 10:30 AM

I dunno who is talking to whom here. I don't think enthusiastic support for a better candidate qualifies as "berserking" and could only appear as such to a dented viewpoint--at least anything I've seen on these threads.

It was not Barack Obama supporters who invented Swiftboat campaigns, you may recall.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 10:44 AM

It would be nice if folks would stop fretting about her past, and take a good look at what she stands for. She makes McCain sound like a raging liberal by comparison.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 11:11 AM

"Will someone just listen to people like Joe Offer or are you determined to go on a hate rampage"?

Seems like Joe O went off on his own version of a "hate rampage" rant a few messages back...regarding most of the recent USA administrations (save Lincoln).

Guess we all have the same potential within?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 11:26 AM

Well, Emma, we gotta vent somewhere... Yeah, I'm working in the Obama campaign here in my county and all we are getting from the Repubs is the same rude and quite uncivil behavior that epitomizes the McCain/Palin strategy so alot of us are about filled up with personal attacks yet in the interest of the campaign just take their crap, stuff it down in our tummies, smile and go on...

It's been the same here...The personal attacks and hatred ****started**** with the usual suspects pounding away with smear, lies and hatred against Obama... But unlike the campaign where I have to take their crap, I don't have to take it here...

Might of fact, this is a folk musican's web site and I find it interesting that the people who have been leading the smear campaign afainst Obama aren't even musicans... Hmmmmmmm???? Makes me think that the Repubs are paying trouble makers to be disruptive on websites such as Mudcat... I woudn't put it past the Bush/McCainites to do just that...

No hate here... Just observations and an opportunity to call stuff the way I see it...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 11:39 AM

Bobert,

I came here by way of Digital Traditions: Two of my satires are in the database.

Should I be asking what *You* have put into it?


So, any criticsm of your candidate is a smear, and justifies anything you want to say about others?


Your comment that those opposed to Obama are racist is offensive: I find that I do not agree with his *politics*, his past record, and the fact that I do not want to see one party in control of both the House, the Senate, and the White House, without even the possibility of slowing them down by filibuster. You might want to see that: I do not, and resent your calling me racist because I do not agree with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 11:43 AM

I question the veracity of the op/ed piece, Emma, for that's what it really is. It doesn't even have the gender of her baby right. Trig Palin is a boy.

Bobert, well said.

Dick, I hear you! Think what she would do to Roe v Wade, people, and science education, to say nothing of the Supreme Court.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 11:44 AM

" "I know the governor of Alaska has been, you know, saying she is change," Obama said at a town hall here. "But when you [have] been taking all these earmarks when it is convenient and then suddenly you are the champion anti-earmark person. That is not change, come on. I mean, words mean something. You can't just make stuff up.""


Barack on Palin

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 11:58 AM

If she can't take the heat, what is she doing in the kitchen?

Palin Won't Give Interviews Until Campaign Is Ready, Davis Says

By Jim O'Connell

Sept. 7 (Bloomberg) -- Republican vice presidential nominee Sarah Palin isn't giving interviews to the news media and won't until ``the campaign is ready,'' campaign manager Rick Davis said today.

Palin will answer questions from reporters ``when we think it's time and when she feels comfortable doing it,'' Davis told ``Fox News Sunday.''

Palin, the governor of Alaska, was picked by Republican presidential nominee John McCain on Aug. 29 to be his running mate. Palin gave a speech at the Republican National Convention and has appeared at campaign events.

``She's not scared to answer questions, but you know what?'' Davis said. ``We run our campaign, not the news media.''

``Sarah Palin will have the opportunity to speak to the American people,'' Davis said. ``She will do interviews, but she'll do them on the terms and conditions'' the campaign decides.

Davis referred to the media as ``piranhas'' and said that reporters focused on Palin's personal life, including the pregnancy of her unmarried 17-year-old daughter.

The coverage last week was ``not what I would call objective journalism,'' Davis said. ``So until at which point in time we feel like the news media is going to treat her with some level of respect and deference, I think it would be foolhardy to put her out into that kind of environment.''

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 12:03 PM

NYT
Palin and McCain's Shotgun Marriage

By FRANK RICH
Published: September 6, 2008

SARAH PALIN makes John McCain look even older than he is. And he seemed more than willing to play that part on Thursday night. By the time he slogged through his nearly 50-minute acceptance speech — longer even than Barack Obama's — you half-expected some brazen younger Republican (Mitt Romney, perhaps?) to dash onstage to give him a gold watch and the bum's rush.

Still, attention must be paid. McCain's address, though largely a repetitive slew of stump-speech lines and worn G.O.P. orthodoxy, reminded us of what we once liked about the guy: his aspirations to bipartisanship, his heroic service in Vietnam, his twinkle. He took his (often inaccurate) swipes at Obama, but, in winning contrast to Palin and Rudy Giuliani, he wasn't smug or nasty.

The only problem, of course, is that the entire thing was a sham.

As is nakedly evident, the speech's central argument, that the 72-year-old McCain will magically morph into a powerful change agent as president, is a non sequitur. In his 26 years in Washington, most of it with a Republican in the White House and roughly half of it with Republicans in charge of Congress, he was better at lecturing his party about reform than leading a reform movement. G.O.P. corruption and governmental dysfunction only grew. So did his cynical flip-flops on the most destructive policies of the president who remained nameless Thursday night. (In the G.O.P., Bush love is now the second most popular love that dare not speak its name.)

Even more fraudulent, if that's possible, is the contrast between McCain's platonic presentation of his personal code of honor and the man he has become. He always puts his country first, he told us: "I've been called a maverick." If there was any doubt that that McCain has fled, confirmation arrived with his last-minute embrace of Sarah Palin.

We still don't know a lot about Palin except that she's better at delivering a speech than McCain and that she defends her own pregnant daughter's right to privacy even as she would have the government intrude to police the reproductive choices of all other women. Most of the rest of the biography supplied by her and the McCain camp is fiction.

She didn't say "no thanks" to the "Bridge to Nowhere" until after Congress had already abandoned it but given Alaska a blank check for $223 million in taxpayers' money anyway. Far from rejecting federal pork, she hired lobbyists to secure her town a disproportionate share of earmarks ($1,000 per resident in 2002, 20 times the per capita average in other states). Though McCain claimed "she has had national security as one of her primary responsibilities," she has never issued a single command as head of the Alaska National Guard. As for her "executive experience" as mayor, she told her hometown paper in Wasilla, Alaska, in 1996, the year of her election: "It's not rocket science. It's $6 million and 53 employees." Her much-advertised crusade against officials abusing their office is now compromised by a bipartisan ethics investigation into charges that she did the same.

How long before we learn she never shot a moose?

Given the actuarial odds that could make Palin our 45th president, it would be helpful to know who this mystery woman actually is. Meanwhile, two eternal axioms of our politics remain in place. Americans vote for the top of the ticket, not the bottom. And in judging the top of the ticket, voters look first at the candidates' maiden executive decision, their selection of running mates. Whatever we do and don't know about Palin's character at this point, there is no ambiguity in what her ascent tells us about McCain's character and potential presidency.

He wanted to choose the pro-abortion-rights Joe Lieberman as his vice president. If he were still a true maverick, he would have done so. But instead he chose partisanship and politics over country. "God only made one John McCain, and he is his own man," said the shafted Lieberman in his own tedious convention speech last week. What a pathetic dupe. McCain is now the man of James Dobson and Tony Perkins. The "no surrender" warrior surrendered to the agents of intolerance not just by dumping his pal for Palin but by moving so far to the right on abortion that even Cindy McCain seemed unaware of his radical shift when being interviewed by Katie Couric last week.

That ideological sellout, unfortunately, was not the worst leadership trait the last-minute vice presidential pick revealed about McCain. His speed-dating of Palin reaffirmed a more dangerous personality tic that has dogged his entire career. His decision-making process is impetuous and, in its Bush-like preference for gut instinct over facts, potentially reckless.

As The New York Times reported last Tuesday, Palin was sloppily vetted, at best. McCain operatives and some of their press surrogates responded to this revelation by trying to discredit The Times article. After all, The Washington Post had cited McCain aides (including his campaign manager, Rick Davis) last weekend to assure us that Palin had a "full vetting process." She had been subjected to "an F.B.I. background check," we were told, and "the McCain camp had reviewed everything it could find on her."

The Times had it right. The McCain campaign's claims of a "full vetting process" for Palin were as much a lie as the biographical details they've invented for her. There was no F.B.I. background check. The Times found no evidence that a McCain representative spoke to anyone in the State Legislature or business community. Nor did anyone talk to the fired state public safety commissioner at the center of the Palin ethics investigation. No McCain researcher even bothered to consult the relevant back issues of the Wasilla paper. Apparently when McCain said in June that his vice presidential vetting process was basically "a Google," he wasn't joking.

This is a roll of the dice beyond even Bill Clinton's imagination. "Often my haste is a mistake," McCain conceded in his 2002 memoir, "but I live with the consequences without complaint." Well, maybe it's fine if he wants to live with the consequences, but what about his country? Should the unexamined Palin prove unfit to serve at the pinnacle of American power, it will be too late for the rest of us to complain.

We've already seen where such visceral decision-making by McCain can lead. In October 2001, he speculated that Saddam Hussein might have been behind the anthrax attacks in America. That same month he out-Cheneyed Cheney in his repeated public insistence that Iraq had a role in 9/11 — even after both American and foreign intelligence services found that unlikely. He was similarly rash in his reading of the supposed evidence of Saddam's W.M.D. and in his estimate of the number of troops needed to occupy Iraq. (McCain told MSNBC in late 2001 that we could do with fewer than 100,000.) It wasn't until months after "Mission Accomplished" that he called for more American forces to be tossed into the bloodbath. The whole fiasco might have been prevented had he listened to those like Gen. Eric Shinseki who faulted the Rumsfeld war plan from the start.

In other words, McCain's hasty vetting of Palin was all too reminiscent of his grave dereliction of due diligence on the war. He has been no less hasty in implying that we might somehow ride to the military rescue of Georgia ("Today, we are all Georgians") or in reaffirming as late as December 2007 that the crumbling anti-democratic regime of Pervez Musharraf deserved "the benefit of the doubt" even as it was enabling the resurgence of the Taliban and Al Qaeda. McCain's blanket endorsement of Bush administration policy in Pakistan could have consequences for years to come.

"This election is not about issues" so much as the candidates' images, said the McCain campaign manager, Davis, in one of the season's most notable pronouncements. Going into the Republican convention, we thought we knew what he meant: the McCain strategy is about tearing down Obama. But last week made clear that the McCain campaign will be equally ruthless about deflecting attention from its own candidate's deterioration.

What was most striking about McCain's acceptance speech is that it had almost nothing in common with the strident right-wing convention that preceded it. We were pointedly given a rerun of McCain 2000 — cobbled together from scraps of the old Straight Talk repertory. The ensuing tedium was in all likelihood intentional. It's in the campaign's interest that we nod off and assume McCain is unchanged in 2008.

That's why the Palin choice was brilliant politics — not because it rallied the G.O.P.'s shrinking religious-right base. America loves nothing more than a new celebrity face, and the talking heads marched in lock step last week to proclaim her a star. Palin is a high-energy distraction from the top of the ticket, even if the provenance of her stardom is in itself a reflection of exactly what's frightening about the top of the ticket.

By hurling charges of sexism and elitism at any easily cowed journalist who raises a question about Palin, McCain operatives are hoping to ensure that whatever happened in Alaska with Sarah Palin stays in Alaska. Given how little vetting McCain himself has received this year — and that only 58 days remain until Nov. 4 — they just might pull it off.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 12:05 PM

The word here is that an unscripted Palin is a fearsome thing. The GOP campaign managers are waking up.

In the debate with Biden, will there be the outline of a little box under her suit, I wonder?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 12:22 PM

If whether or not a candidate wins is based on the behavior of his or her supporters, then McCain hasn't got a chance. Because compared to the utter viciousness that McCain's supporters have been aiming at Obama for several months now, what some of Obama's supporters have been saying about Palin in the last week is a walk on the beach.

I'm not apologizing for anything they have said or done. I don't agree with making personal attacks on Palin or her family (her record and history in public office is another matter). But if the amount of that sort of thing is what will determine who will win or lose the election, then Obama will win in a landslide.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 12:25 PM

Geeze, bb, I didn't hear all this hatred when the Rebubs had control of the White Houes, the Congress and the Courts...

Try again... That excues was not credible...

Yeah, Eb... That is why the Repubs are going to "cacoon" her... Oh sure, they they will send her to one rigged town meeting after another... They will send her to one lilly white ralley after another... They will ***not*** allow her anywhere like Meet the Press, or an open town hall meeting in Chicago or Phiadelphia, or even Northern Virginia, for that matter...

Reminds me of Bush's '04 campaign strategy...

Warch for Palin ti interupt Biden in the debates and try to change the conversation every chance she gets to curtural issues... I beleive she may even drag out flag burning yet again... Like who burns flags these days???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 12:28 PM

And if the author of that "Barack's berserkers" opinion piece had really been unbiased, as I am sure we are meant to believe, then he would have pointed that out himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: mg
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 01:00 PM

I am not for a minute going to say she is qualified for VP. But there are sure some nasty people here. I live in a double wide prefab by the way. So do many people in the town where I live.

Her baby does not look delicate to me. He looks quite sturdy but of course I don't know. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Peace
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 01:04 PM

I will post Nick Cohen's article in its entirety.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Peace
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 01:21 PM

When Barack's berserkers lost the plot

Nick Cohen

The Observer, Sunday September 7 2008



My colleagues in the American liberal press had little to fear at the start of the week. Their charismatic candidate was ahead in virtually every poll. George W Bush was so unpopular that conservatives were scrambling around for reasons not to invite the Republican President to the Republican convention. Democrats had only to maintain their composure and the White House would be theirs. During the 1997 British general election, the late Lord Jenkins said that Tony Blair was like a man walking down a shiny corridor carrying a precious vase. He was the favourite and held his fate in his hands. If he could just reach the end of the hall without a slip, a Labour victory was assured. The same could have been said of the American Democrats last week. But instead of protecting their precious advantage, they succumbed to a spasm of hatred and threw the vase, the crockery, the cutlery and the kitchen sink at an obscure politician from Alaska.

For once, the postmodern theories so many of them were taught at university are a help to the rest of us. As a Christian, conservative anti-abortionist who proved her support for the Iraq War by sending her son to fight in it, Sarah Palin was 'the other' - the threatening alien presence they defined themselves against. They might have soberly examined her reputation as an opponent of political corruption to see if she was truly the reformer she claimed to be. They might have gently mocked her idiotic creationism, while carefully avoiding all discussion of the racist conspiracy theories of Barack Obama's church.

But instead of following a measured strategy, they went berserk. On the one hand, the media treated her as a sex object. The New York Times led the way in painting Palin as a glamour-puss in go-go boots you were more likely to find in an Anchorage lap-dancing club than the Alaska governor's office.

On the other, liberal journalists turned her family into an object of sexual disgust: inbred rednecks who had stumbled out of Deliverance. Palin was meant to be pretending that a handicapped baby girl was her child when really it was her wanton teenage daughter's. When that turned out to be a lie, the media replaced it with prurient coverage of her teenage daughter, who was, after all, pregnant, even though her mother was not going to do a quick handover at the maternity ward and act as if the child was hers.

Hatred is the most powerful emotion in politics. At present, American liberals are not fighting for an Obama presidency. I suspect that most have only the haziest idea of what it would mean for their country. The slogans that move their hearts and stir their souls are directed against their enemies: Bush, the neo-cons, the religious right.

In this, American liberals are no different from the politically committed the world over. David Cameron knew that he would never be Prime Minister until he had killed the urgent hatred of the Conservative party in liberal England. A measure of his success is that hardly anyone now is caught up by the once ubiquitous feeling that no compromise is too great if it stops the Tories regaining power. Hate can sell better than hope.

When a hate campaign goes wrong, however, disaster follows. And everything that could go wrong with the campaign against Palin did. American liberals forgot that the public did not know her. By the time she spoke at the Republican convention, journalists had so lowered expectations that a run-of-the-mill speech would have been enough to win the evening.

As it was, her family appeared on stage without a goitre or a club foot between them, and Palin made a fighting speech that appealed over the heads of reporters to the public we claim to represent. 'I'm not going to Washington to seek their good opinion,' she said as she deftly detached journalists from their readers and viewers. 'I'm going to Washington to serve the people of this country.'

English leftists made the same mistake of allowing their hatred to override their judgment after the Iraq war. If they had confined themselves to charging Tony Blair with failing to find the weapons of mass destruction he promised were in Iraq, and sending British troops into a quagmire, they might have forced him out. They were so consumed by loathing, however, they insisted that he had lied, which he clearly had not. They set the bar too low and Blair jumped it with ease. 'When a man believes that any stick will do, he at once picks up a boomerang,' said GK Chesterton, and when the politically committed go on a berserker you should listen for the sound of their own principles smacking them in the face.

Journalists who believe in women's equality should not spread sexual smears about a candidate, or snigger at her teenage daughter's pregnancy, or declare that a mother with a young family cannot hold down a responsible job for the pragmatic reason that they will look like gross hypocrites if they do. Before Palin, we saw hypocrisy of the right when shock jocks who had spent years denouncing feminism came over all politically correct when Bill Clinton had an affair with Monica Lewinsky.

In Britain, the most snobbish attacks on Margaret Thatcher did not come from aristocrats but from the communist historian Eric Hobsbawm, who opined that Thatcherism was the 'anarchism of the lower middle classes' and the liberal Jonathan Miller, who deplored her 'odious suburban gentility'. More recently, George Osborne, of the supposedly compassionate Conservative party, revealed himself to be a playground bully when he derided Gordon Brown for being 'faintly autistic'.

In an age when politics is choreographed, voters watch out for the moments when the public-relations facade breaks down and venom pours through the cracks. Their judgment is rarely favourable when it does. Barack Obama knows it. All last week, he was warning American liberals to stay away from the Palin family. He understands better than his supporters that it is not a politician's enemies who lose elections, but his friends.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 01:41 PM

As I posted earlier, talk "hate" radio spews lies and hatred against Democrats, feminists, environmentalists all day long - and it PAINS me to see those supporting Democrats to stoop to the low level of name calling. If people would keep to the issues, stop the insults, they would get more credibility for their point of view.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Peace
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 01:45 PM

It would be refreshing to actually read what the policies of the parties are.

As witk all fights, it is foolish to allow the opposition to set the parameters of the pre-election show. One should establish the tempo and let the other guy/gal play catch-up.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 01:51 PM

My last post was referring to this thread and the way politics have been discussed on Mudcat lately.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 01:54 PM

Actually, I don't know of any "liberals" who care much one way or another about Sarah Palin's baby... I have commented that Ms. Palin might have benfited from some Planned Parenthood counseling since women over 40 have higher rates of child birth problems but I don't know whether she availed herself or not... It is apparent that her daughter didn't but, really, for liberals this is about as much as non issue as falg burning... Like who cares???

Well, I'll tell you who cares... The folks that want to keep the Repubs in power... They care a lot and they have Karl Rove pulling levers in the background so I find it disgusting, but not surprising, that the Repubs would try to paint "liberals" as these mean people who would attack Palin for giving birth...

This has Karl Rove's fingerprints all over it...

Liberals' couldn't care less... It's a non issue...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 02:02 PM

Democratic Party Platform Draft 2008

Republican Party Platform 2008

From the latter:

"As the party of ideas, rather than
a mere coalition of interests,
we consider vigorous debate
a strength, not a weakness.
Indeed, we are a party — as we
are a nation — of mavericks."

DO we really want a whole nation of so-called mavericks?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: DougR
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 02:34 PM

kat:printing an article by Frank Rich plays well to the lefties but falls on deaf ears to anyone else. Don't know why Mudcatters use known lefties to support their point of view unless they use whatever is written thinking that other lefties haven't read the article. It does not change conservative opinion any more than my quoting Sean Hannity would change the minds of lefties.

After reading all the vitriolic comments in this thread about Gov. Palin, I'm convinced that John McCain finally did something right when he asked her to be his running mate. You folks are plain scared to death!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 02:37 PM

Scared with good reason. The possibility of two such people as president and vice president (McCain and Palin) is frightening indeed. Terrifying, even.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 02:37 PM

What me, scared? Hahaha...that's a laugh.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: DougR
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 02:42 PM

Love it!
DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 04:15 PM

On the subject of sex ed, it's not a scientific study, but this article has some interesting statistics, and it's from someone currently in the trenches (so to speak)...

http://www.latinitasmagazine.org/teens/articles.php?article=116

"The fact that America has a problem with teen pregnany doesn't surprise us any more. With 821,810 teens becoming pregnant each year, America has the highest teen pregnancy rate in the Western world. But maybe America should take a look at what makes it different from all other countries that have lower rates of teen pregnancy.

Teenagers in America are not more "child-friendly" than anywhere else, since 95 percent of teen pregnancies are unintended, but why do countries in Europe have such a lower rate? Here in America, one million teens will become pregnant over the next year, and half of these teens will end up on welfare. Can you believe that?

After Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico and Mississippi (which have 113 to 103 pregnant teens in 1,000), Texas has the fifth highest rate of teen pregnancy with 101 pregnant girls. These are startling facts from Naral Pro-choice, an organization that tries to inform the population about taboo-themes. France only has 20 pregnancies per 1,000 and Germany 16–a significant contrast. Countries in Europe have a rate of teen pregnancies five times lower than that of America...

...let's take a look to other countries' methods. In my home country, Germany, I was taught sex education starting in fifth grade. We learned about the penis, period and puberty. We watched interesting videos with naked men and women in them. In class, boys and girls were giggling and glancing at each other. We also learned how to use a condom, where to get it and that it is a contraceptive that prevents you from STDs.

Sex education is taught in Germany with the official reasoning that it shall inform you about human sexual anatomy, sexual reproduction, intercourse and other aspects of human behavior. Most people in my class already knew how children are conceived, but whether they decided to have sex or not – at least they knew all the ways to protect themselves.

During my sex education class, my teacher also asked us to write topics on a small sheet of paper that we would like to discuss. If these wishes differed a lot from the prescribed schedule, the teacher would just change his plans and teach that. Could this type of education—giving information and answering questions—be a reason for the lower rate?

Another difference is conspicious: In Berlin, the capital of Germany, not only teachers, but the whole city, seems to talk more about contraceptives. There is a campaign that advertises for condoms, hands out postcards, free condoms, and, most of all, shows condom posters on every fifth streetcorner. The slogans are funny and colorful. Also, there are youth-magazines that talk about teen topics and have numbers to call with questions. Advertisements and magazines exist in the U.S., but they address this issue with teens less.

So, is it really sex education that makes the difference? To answer this question with a simple "yes" or "no" is not possible, but the following statistic might back up my opinon. Britain has the hightest teen pregnancy rate in Europe with 65 per thousand. In Britain, sex education is mandatory in secondary schools, but it focuses on fetal development and physical changes while contraception and safe sex are treated discretly. Additionally, parents can withdrawl their child from sex education lessons. England is the only country in Europe where sex education does not cover everything and still is a hot topic. This country has the highest rate of teen pregnancies in Europe. Still, the United States with its abstinence-only sex education program has even higher rates of teen pregnancy.

To me, teenagers should have the chance to know as much as possible about sex to decide whether they want a baby or not. They also might not realize that the government's funding for day care centers at school is insufficient. At my highschool, there are 18 spaces for the whole high school. According to the nurse at my high school, 62 teenagers at the school got pregnant last year. As you can see, the government also does not take responsibility for the consequences of its policies."

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: DougR
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 05:24 PM

Anybody know if there are reliable studies that show pregnancies occur less often among teenagers who attend sex ed classes than those who do not? If so, can a blue clicky be provided?

I'm all for kids being taught safe sex practices since so many parents apparently fail to do so. But when two young people with raging hormones get together in the back seat of a Cheverolet (even a Ford)I wonder how many of them review, in their minds, the text book used in their sex ed class. How many say to themselves, "Just one time, or it couldn't happen to me." And it does.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 05:31 PM

Doug:

The two posts just above yours offer some telling statistics.

The bottom line question is, should human beings be made or kept ignorant about their physical natures? If not, when and how should they acquire that information?




A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 05:38 PM

"But when two young people with raging hormones get together in the back seat of a Cheverolet (even a Ford)"

Never happens in Japanese or a German cars.    :)

Has the fact occurred to anyone posting in this thread, that many teenage pregnancies occur (these days) because the 'teenage' girl wants to become pregnant?

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 05:43 PM

Actually, Dougie, you should be scared, too... The conditions were right for the US to prevail in the last Cold War... Our economy was strong and Russia's was not... But Russia is swimming in money right now and our economy is in the crapper because of the tax cuts and the Iraq War so a betting man would give the Russians the edge in the next one...

And McCain and Palin, who both want to play to their NAQSCAR dad, gin tottin' base, are much more apt to get US into a losing Cold War scenerio than is Obama...

Remember this post, Doug... Write it down somewhere... Remember what I said about going into Iraq in the first p;ace??? I was right and I am 99% confident that if McCain gets elected that what I have outlined above will also come to pass... Yes, this ***is*** a dangerous world and we've had 8 years of cowboy foriegn policy and nothin that either McCain or Palin suggests that either of them have the vision or wisdom to keep the US outta that Cold War scenerio...

So remember this warning...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: DougR
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 05:45 PM

Can't say I agree, Amos, that that is the bottom line. To me the bottom like would be:does sex education as taught in the public schools (or wherever)ensure that the rate of pregnancies will be affected done way or the other.

If you are referring in your post to Carol C's post you will note that she acknowledges that the report she produced is not scientific. That's when I stopped reading it. Opinion does not make it so.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 05:49 PM

Doug as stated earlier, here in the UK we have the highest rate of teenage pregnancies in Europe

Rates of teen pregnancy have been linked to low socio enonomic status and resources have been put into developing better sex education programmes for the 13-15 age group.

However........

'Doctors who developed a sex education programme for schools throughout Britain have concluded it is no better at preventing unwanted pregnancies than traditional approaches

Known as Share, for "sexual health and relationships: safe, happy and responsible", the programme was designed by the Medical Research Council and NHS Health Scotland to improve sex education by using interactive videos, group work and role play to develop the skills needed for sexual relationships

In a study published yesterday in the British Medical Journal, lead researcher Marion Henderson at the MRC in Glasgow compared rates of pregnancies and abortions among 4,196 young women, half of whom took part in trials of the Share programme, and half of whom received traditional sex education.

The study followed the women from the age of 15 to 20 and found pregnancy rates were the same in both groups, at 300 per 1,000 women. Abortions were the same, with 120 women in every 1,000 having at least one termination'

'Sex education course fails to cut teenage pregnancies'
Ian Sample, science correspondent The Guardian, Tuesday November 21 2006

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Peace
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 05:58 PM

Sex education was initially brought into schools because it wasn't being discussed at home.

"Ya got a loaded pistol. Keep it in yer pants" is NOT sex education even if it is good advice.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 06:12 PM

As I've said before.....no where that I know of in the USA is astinence the only thing taught in this country.

But no one can argue the fact that when abstinence is TRIED, it is effective in preventing pregnancies 100% of the time.

That is a fact that no one can spin.

By the way...McCain/Palin is up by 4 according to Zogby and forecasted to go higher in the coming days.

Just thought I'd share a little good news in here today.


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 06:15 PM

There's sex and there's sex ed. It depends on whether it focuses only on abstinence or if it actually teaches contraception methods.

This was noted in an earlier post about GB (my emphasis):

In Britain, sex education is mandatory in secondary schools, but it focuses on fetal development and physical changes while contraception and safe sex are treated discretly. Additionally, parents can withdrawl their child from sex education lessons. England is the only country in Europe where sex education does not cover everything and still is a hot topic.

Dou, you have a point about kids stopping to think about using a condom or other contraceptives, but the world is not the same as it was when you or I were kids. These days the girls are more assertive about boys using protection AND most know about the real danger of STDs of which there are so many more deadly types. Remember when having unprotected sex wasn't a possible automatic death threat ala AIDS?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 06:20 PM

SuSu's Hubby, how can you say But no one can argue the fact that when abstinence is TRIED, it is effective in preventing pregnancies 100% of the time. When it is obvious, in a very public way, that it did NOT work for Palin's daughter? And, that is what she advocates for ALL of our children.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 06:29 PM

Well, sex education is worthless without birth control resources... Herein lies the problem... Knowing what can happen and actually preventing it are two different situations... Face it, people, including young people are going to have sex... That is a reality...

I'd be curious to know what the unwanted pregancy rates are in Sweden which has a much more liberal society all the way around...

B

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 06:34 PM

"SuSu's Hubby, how can you say But no one can argue the fact that when abstinence is TRIED, it is effective in preventing pregnancies 100% of the time. When it is obvious, in a very public way, that it did NOT work for Palin's daughter? And, that is what she advocates for ALL of our children."

Kat....do me a favor.

Look up the word "abstinence".

Then when you find the definition and understand it, convince me how it was TRIED when the girl turned up pregnant.

Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: pdq
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 06:37 PM

Most likely, governor Palin's daughter is pregnant because she wants to be. It will be getting her a husband, seems like right now. Their choices and nobody else's business.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Peace
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 06:37 PM

I dislike the passive voice. However

It was TRIED. They FAILED!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 06:46 PM

Desired Pregnancy Is Pervasive but Largely Ignored

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: DougR
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 06:46 PM

I'm guessing that only two people know why Gov. Palin's daughter became pregnant. The daughter and the husband to be. And, basically, it really is nobody else' business.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 06:48 PM

It (astinence), evidently, wasn't tried.

She turned up pregnant, didn't she?


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 06:50 PM

Right on Doug !

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Peace
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 06:52 PM

Games with words, Hubby. They fucked up. The verb is 'tried'. The result was failure.

I tried a six foot high bar jump when I was in track and field. I failed. Get it?

Go play your games with someone who wants to play games. I don't. I retired from teaching English. Have a nice evening.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: pdq
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 07:08 PM

Several people have claimed that there are courses in sex education where abstinance-only is the sole choice given. Will someone please find a shread of proof supporting that claim?

The concept is silly. Besides, if the teacher writes on the blackboard "DON'T", what will they do for the other 54 minutes, teach macrame? Decoupage? Perhaps finger painting?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 07:12 PM

pdq, not all children go to public schools. Some children go to private, religious schools. Some children are home schooled.
Home schooling in Alaska is pretty common. I home schooled my son for 6th and 7th grade because I did not like the middle school here. There was no requirement on what I had to teach regarding sex education, as a home schooling parent.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 07:16 PM

Kat is absolutely correct too when she says parents can opt out of sex education classes for their children in the UK as they can opt out of religious services, prayers etc

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 07:17 PM

sorry, meant to type 7th and 8th grades. I sent him back to the public school for high school, and he had gone through public school from kindergarten through 6th grade.

In Montana, it is typical for many very religious parents to home school, because there are very few controls on curriculum for home school. They can teach creationism instead of science, they can teach abstinence only and no other sex education in their home school.

I did not home school because of religious teaching. I just did not agree with the middle school administrators and the way they did not deal with bullying.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 07:40 PM

SuSu's Hubby: what Peace said, both times.

Some excerpts from a blog with links to relevant citations:

Beginning in 1995, Title V of the Social Security Act has provided funds for states willing to implement abstinence-only sex-education classes. Among other things, qualifying curricula are required to instruct students that there are "social, psychological, and health gains to be realized by abstaining from sexual activity," that "sexual activity outside of the context of marriage is likely to have harmful psychological and physical effects," and that "abstinence from sexual activity is the only certain way to avoid out-of wedlock pregnancy, sexually transmitted diseases, and other associated health problems."...

From 1996-2001, 49 states received funds under Title V, the holdout being California, which already had its own abstinence-only curriculum. In 2002, a study by the Kaiser Family Foundation found that about a third of secondary schools in the U.S. were then practicing abstinence-only sex education.

Starting in 2002, many states began dropping out of the program, citing research showing that — compared to comprehensive sex education — abstinence-only programs do not delay first sexual experience in most students and have little to no long-term effects on sexual intentions and activity, other than a slightly increased tolerance for teen pregnancy.

Furthermore, some critics accused the federally funded programs of spreading misinformation and lies, such as that "condoms fail in 31% of cases of heterosexual sex," "touching someone's genitals can make you pregnant," "50% of all American teenage gay men are HIV positive," and "HIV can pass through condoms because the latex used in condoms is porous."

Currently, only 28 states are receiving Title V funds, with two more (Iowa and Arizona) planning to drop out after this fiscal year. Says a spokesman for the governor of Ohio, which dropped out in 2007: "We've spent millions of dollars on such education since Ohio first started getting grant money in 1998. If the state is going to spend money on teaching and protecting kids, the governor believes it's better to spend it in a smarter, more comprehensive approach."

However, Governor Palin — apparently undaunted by mere research (just the kind of new leadership we need!) recently announced that Alaska would be applying for federal abstinence-only sex-education funds for next fiscal year, saying "the explicit sex-ed programs will not find my support." That quote is from a survey given in 2006...

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: pdq
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 07:50 PM

"...parents can opt out of sex education classes for their children in the UK"

Sorry, but Sara Palin is not running for VP of the UK. Here, most kids take the courses they are given. The amount of federal money might be reduced, and, like most things, it always come down to money.

"I just did not agree with the middle school administrators and the way they did not deal with bullying."

Yes, that is the biggest impediment to education in many schools. Your state of Montana has as little problem as any state. Go sit in at a class in Los Angeles, Chicago or Hackensack.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 07:58 PM

Hubby:

You can always find a poll to make you happy.

Here's a national average of polls from RCP:

RCP Average        08/29 - 09/06        --        46.0        45.2        Obama +0.8
Gallup Tracking        09/04 - 09/06        2765 RV        45        48        McCain +3
Rasmussen Tracking        09/04 - 09/06        3000 LV        48        48        Tie
Hotline/FD        09/02 - 09/04        916 RV        46        40        Obama +6
CBS News        09/01 - 09/03        734 RV        42        42        Tie
CNN        08/29 - 08/31        927 RV        49        48        Obama +1

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 07:59 PM

Who have you known that has nearly the same whineing sarcastic tone of voice as Sarah Palin?

The problem is that is her normal tone.

The obnoxious tone of her voice is probably how she got her way much of the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 08:06 PM

"That McCain eventually wound up here should come as a less than total surprise, for the guru guiding his message and strategy is Steve Schmidt, who made his bones working for Rove in 2004. Schmidt is regarded as one of the toughest, savviest, most skilled operatives in the business—but his mettle will be severely tested by his opposite number on Team Obama, David Axelrod, the class of the Democratic field. For months already, the two men have faced off like a pair of chess grand masters, carefully arranging their pieces on the board, occasionally snatching a pawn or a rook, setting up their candidates for the final drive to capture the other side's king. ..."

From The Sixty-Day War in New York Magazine, an interesting analysis of the game behind the games.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 08:19 PM

Apparently "about 35% (of federally funded sex ed programs in public schools) not only required abstinence to be covered but either did not allow discussion of contraceptives or allowed discussion only of their failure rates".

http://www.avert.org/abstinence.htm


And apparently scientific studies have been done. The above link mentions some of them, and the AMA has come out saying that it cannot support abstinence-based sex ed programs...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,140823,00.html


According to this AIDS prevention website, the Texas Department of State Health Services conducted a scientific study and found abstinence-based sex ed programs to be ineffective...

http://aidsblog.blogspot.com/2005/02/abstinence-based-sex-education-fails.html


This is what the Union of Concerned Scientists has to say about it...

http://www.ucsusa.org/scientific_integrity/abuses_of_science/case_studies_and_evidence/abstinence-only-education.html


This paper discusses the body of scientific work that has been done on this subject...

Abstinence Only vs. Comprehensive Sex Education

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: DougR
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 08:22 PM

kat: your offering evidence from a blog to support your POV just makes no sense at all. A blogger can write anything and SOMEBODY is going to believe it. Example:Bush administration operatives brought down one of the towers on 9/11. There are actually some kooks that believe that!

Amos:quoting from the New Yorker Magazine to support your POV makes just about as much sense as kat's reproducing quotes from bloggers.

Suppose I were to quote Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Laura Ingrham or some other conservative to support my POV on a subject, would that convert either of you or your fellow same-believers to my POV?

Jeeze.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 08:24 PM

That blog entry does contain credible links to credible organizations. Is there some reason why they were not opened and read?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 08:24 PM

( ...my guess would be blinkers)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Barry Finn
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 09:00 PM

For those that are sayin Palin's family is off limits, I say NOT. She & the committee should've kept them off stage & out of the limelight if that were the case. They held off because they wanted the advantage of a "family display" on stage party so they could use her stances on family values, "just say no", abortions while parading her to controvasial children on a world wide network. She used her kids so they are now fair game. The Clintions didn't use of let their kid be used but yet it was McNasty that rendered the "UGLY" blow on their child & made a national insult of the "hands off" family policy.
Palin is in the water with the sharks, & she's hunting them & baring her teeth. The sharks should be afraid. She's using everyone that available & on her terms only.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 09:08 PM

Yeah, Barry, I think you have purdy much hit the entire McCain campaign on the head... They want their cake and eat it too... It's okay to do whatever they want to do, say whatever comes into their little peo brains, accuse Obama of anything that they or anyone else can think up but...

...when they themselves are called on their crap it's "Oh, that is personal and off limits" or "I spent 5 years as a POW"...

Give me a break...

But you hit it on th head, Barry, with Ms. Sarah...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 09:11 PM

Ahhhhh, sorry Dougie, to leave you out...

What the hell do you know about sex??? Word on the street is you ain't "had any" since the Wright Brothers were messin' 'round with Kitty Hawk... Awww, jus' funnin...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 09:45 PM

That's horse pucky, thick and redolent. If the whole nation is maverick, there is no herd for any of them to maverick from, and the whole concept becomes meaningless.

Note that :Samuel A. Maverick was a Texan rancher of the 1840's who did not bother to brand his calves (which was an important practice followed by the community). At first the word Maverick was only used for unbranded calves. The meaning was extended to apply to one who doesn't follow the common herd , somebody different and a little far from the crowd of rule followers.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 10:03 PM

Agreed, again, Barry! Damn, I wish you'd run for office!!

Doug, read the links in the blog. Sheesh! Or, take the blinders off, as Carol mentions.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 10:39 PM

Believe it or not, I was taught in a Catholic seminary that "rhythm" and hoping for abstinence don't work very well. Unfortunately, that 150-year-old seminary closed its doors last year.
But Barry, I want to take issue with you on saying Palin's children are fair game. She's got children and it appears that she loves them, and that's nice. I don't htink she's tried to use them for propaganda purposes beyond that. Now, if you can come up with evidence that she is an evil mother or something, then that might be a different issue - but I agree with Barack Obama that children and family should not be targets in this campaign. It seems like Obama and McCain are the only people who think this campaign should be honorable. Why can't we follow their example and debate issues for a change?
And another thing - I think it's wrong to tie the campaign too closely to ideology. I have lost faith in ideology in recent years, because it never seems to work. I think it's time for us to start looking for consensus and compromise, to realize that we cannot govern this country according to the whims of a simple majority. If we are to progress as a nation, our changes must be supported by the vast majority of people. We have to seek unity and avoid divisiveness as much as we can. I think both presidential candidates believe that, and I think we need to follow their example on this.
And yes, it does appear that ten years ago, John McCain did call Chelsea Clinton "ugly." He also apologized for that remark. It WAS a cheap shot, but it WAS ten years ago...

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 11:06 PM

Seems the RNC delayed bunp is finally getting traction.

RCP Average        08/29 - 09/07        --        45.7        46.7        McCain +1.0
USA Today/Gallup        09/05 - 09/07        LV        44        54        McCain +10
Gallup Tracking        09/04 - 09/06        2765 RV        45        48        McCain +3
Rasmussen Tracking        09/04 - 09/06        3000 LV        48        48        Tie
Hotline/FD        09/02 - 09/04        916 RV        46        40        Obama +6
CBS News        09/01 - 09/03        734 RV        42        42        Tie
CNN        08/29 - 08/31        927 RV        49        48        Obama +1

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 12:25 AM

seems the grain prices were off sharply on Friday.

Corn: Sep 5.31 1/2, off 17 3/4; Dec 5.48 1/2, off 16; Mar 5.67 1/4, off 16; May 5.79 1/4, off 16.

Soybeans: Sep 11.80, off 54 ; Nov 11.77, off 58; Jan 11.93 3/4, off 58 1/4, Mar 12.06 3/4, off 57 3/4.

Wheat: Sep 7.29 3/4, off 25 1/2; Dec 7.51 1/2, off 25 1/2; Mar 7.74 3/4, off 26; May 7.88 1/2, off 27.

Oats: Sep 3.27, off 1; Dec 3.41, off 2; Mar 3.58 1/2, off 2; May 3.70 1/2, off 2.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 12:26 AM

Soybeans are a legume.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 12:26 AM

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 12:29 AM

Geeeezuz Carol do you have to point out everything !!!    :)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Peace
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 12:31 AM

Yo, Six. Check your e-msil.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 12:31 AM

lol

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Greg B
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 08:29 AM

Joe, Obama and McCain can afford to declare families "off limits." They
have plenty of other people to do that dirty work for them. The guys
who 'Swift boated' John Kerry didn't work for Dubya or the RNC.

Of course if you've seen young Ms. Clinton lately, you'd know that
she's had the last laugh on that 'ugly' comment.

I agree with Barry--- Palin's the one holding the infant up in
the air for the photo ops. She's also the one leveraging the
'everyday family woman with everyday problems' to try and sucker
other women into her camp.

Apparently the only thing that's supposed to be "off limits" is
any spin but her own and the RNC's.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 08:32 AM

Normal, Greg...

This has been the Republcan formula going back decades...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 01:39 PM

"That's horse pucky, thick and redolent. If the whole nation is maverick, there is no herd for any of them to maverick from, and the whole concept becomes meaningless." Amos

Along similar lines my cartoons said
"when no one in the administration is 'right' about anything, then no one is wrong"

or

"No one will die in vain as long as the war is endless"

so the next cartoon will be a herd of Republicans saying
"We're ALL Mavericks, drill drill drill drill drill drill!"

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 10:10 AM

"What kind of budget-cutter makes a show of getting rid of the state plane, then turns around and bills taxpayers for the travel of her husband and kids between Juneau and Wasilla and sticks the state with a per-diem tab to stay in her own home?

Why was Sarah for the Bridge to Nowhere before she was against the Bridge to Nowhere, and why was she for earmarks before she was against them? And doesn't all this make her just as big a flip-flopper as John Kerry?

What kind of fiscal conservative raises taxes and increases budgets in both her jobs — as mayor and as governor?

When the phone rings at 3 a.m., will she call the Wasilla Assembly of God congregation and ask them to pray on a response, as she asked them to pray for a natural gas pipeline?

Does she really think Adam, Eve, Satan and the dinosaurs mingled on the earth 5,000 years ago?

Why put out a press release about her teenage daughter's pregnancy and then spend the next few days attacking the press for covering that press release?

As Troopergate unfolds here — an inquiry into whether Palin inappropriately fired the commissioner of public safety for refusing to fire her ex-brother-in-law — it raises this question: Who else is on her enemies list and what might she do with the F.B.I.?

Does she want a federal ban on trans fat in restaurants and a ban on abortion and Harry Potter? And which books exactly would have landed on the literature bonfire if she had had her way with that Wasilla librarian?

Just how is it that Fannie and Freddie have cost taxpayers money (since they haven't yet)?

Does she talk in tongues or just eat caribou tongues?

What does she have against polar bears? "

(MAureen DOwd, NYT, excerpted)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 12:21 PM

Again, yet, if all the negative accusations about Palin were true, the faithful would still vote for her. And if they were all false, she would still be an uninformed neocon.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 07:10 AM

What would make her a neocon?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: pdq
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 10:05 AM

refresh

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 10:33 AM

You're opening another can of worms, there,, Rig. She espouses positions which are not classically conservative (such as rejecting anthropogenic global warming, and inserting Pentecostal views into secular discussions, for example).

A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Peace
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 10:41 AM

1000

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 11:04 AM

Maybe "Neocon" means something different to me. I think of Paul Wolfowitz and Richard Perle when the word neocon comes up.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 11:18 AM

ANd rightly so, originally. The abuses of the Bush Administration have expanded the word into a sort of catchall for nutballs, meatheads and reactionary yahoos of the far right--war-mongers, bible-thumpers, military-industrial war profiteers, etc., etc.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 04:15 PM

Well, if they expand the definition too far, it won't mean much of anything to anybody.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 12:31 PM

I don't want to start another Palin thread but I want to post this latest wrinkle in the Troopergate (How I hate the "gate" affixed to everything!) case. Note the Juneau bloggers' reaction to today's development.

Only Under Subpoena, evidently

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 12:48 PM

The Obamamaniacs will have the Dems in the legislature trying to bring this up at every opportunity. With less than 2 months to go until the election, the only thing she can do is to kick it down the road, whether she did anything wrong or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 01:45 PM

I think it is really snide to refer to a candidate's supporters that way, Rig. You're messing with a decent guy with a lot of intelligencve in Obama. Why resort to cheap-saloon snidity?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 01:48 PM

SOme comments from Alaskans:

"Stonewall 'em Sarah!!! Keep finding reasons to delay until after you get elected to higher office. This display of contempt for the open government you profess to support is yet another sign that you are ready to go to Washington.

Posted by: absidion at Sep. 12, 2008 at 4:37:29 pm
So much for "I welcome an investigation. Bring it on!"
Open government my eye!

Posted by: racecars at Sep. 12, 2008 at 4:45:32 pm
WHAT A JOKE OUR GOVERNOR IS!!!! SHE IS GUILTY AND KNOWS IT..TIME FOR THE PUPPET FLOP!!!

Posted by: alaskadude at Sep. 12, 2008 at 4:55:06 pm
One Word... Transparent.

Posted by: jnugrrl at Sep. 12, 2008 at 5:07:24 pm
How ironic is it that the shady, good ol' boy, Uncle Ted pushed to have his trial BEFORE the elections, yet the transparent, pristine, Gov. Palin is trying to DELAY her investigation until AFTER the elections.

Posted by: maddog at Sep. 12, 2008 at 5:12:22 pm
Dick Cheney would be proud! Sneer at them Sarah.

Posted by: Dingdong at Sep. 12, 2008 at 5:28:33 pm
If Palin abused her authority in the original Troopergate incident is unknown and needs to be investigated. However by now hiring lawyers, ordering staff not to cooperate, arguing about which venue is appropriate, and having lied about her and her staff openess and willing to cooperate, it is obvious that Palin is now abusing her power. How disapointed and sad I am to see the typical lying stonewalling tactics Palin now employs, directed, no doubt by a staff of lawyers on the McCain payroll. Our girl has gone over to the other side. Palin can not come back for long, if ever. Things will never be the same in Saradise.

Posted by: absidion at Sep. 12, 2008 at 5:44:20 pm
dingdong - isn't it ironic? She's abusing her power to stonewall an investigation into whether or not she was abusing her power!!! If this weren't such a serious issue, it'd be funny.....

Posted by: dhorner8 at Sep. 12, 2008 at 6:03:26 pm
Almost unbelievable...but it follows the patterns she has set forth in her very limited time in power. This isn't a "party" thing. This is a PALIN CORRUPTION thing.

Does anyone recall her statements following one of her last attempts to deny Alaskans the right to know the true cost of moving the capital before they vote on it?

Something about "Alaskans don't need to know..." (the true facts)..."they need to trust their elected officials to do what's best for them..."

I'm starting to think she really is believing the lies and garbage she spits out! Can we get a psych evaluation on the governor to see the true extent of her delusional state???"

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 04:55 PM

Sarah Palin =
Anal Parish
A sharp nail
a plain rash



See, this is another shrill example of the shrill attacks against a god fearing christian woman who has only done good for her family, her town, her state and next, her country and the world.

Blasphemy like this will not go unnoticed after the election mister,
we can get you fired no matter who you work for.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 05:10 PM

I don't care, Don. I'm retired. nyah nyah, nyah, Sarah!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 09:54 AM

Ted Stevens, of course, knew he was going to be running for re-election a long time prior to the time charges were brought against him. Sarah Palin didn't know she was the VP candidate until a few weeks ago. In the meantime, the legislature was moving forward with its investigation.
               One wouldn't even have to know anything about Alaskan politics to know that Democrats in the legislature would like nothing better than to derail her.
               She can't deal with it now and risk letting Obama walk away with the presidency. America would never forgive her.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 10:34 AM

Well, Amos, lets be fair when it comes to Sarah being a "neocon"... The true neocons are in all actuality, educated, intellectual people... Just have this one little flaw in thinking that colonialism is something new and wondersous...

Ms. Sarah does not appear to be very bright, however, and wereas she would most likely be a good "order taker" for the neocons wouldn't have a clue what they are about...

I mean, lets be fair here... I don't think the woman has any ability for ***creative or critical*** thought and is merely parroting what others have stuffed in her purdy little head...

(That sounds "sexist", Boberdz...)

No, it isn't... Hillary is an example of what creative and critical thinking looks like and Ms. Sarah, bless her peapickin' heart, ain't got those qulaities...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 05:09 PM

She's a spear-carrier, and a red herring, as well as being a pit bull with pig-stick, no I mean....never mind!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 06:12 PM

She reminds my Rog and me of a congresswoman from WY, now retired, by the name of Barbara Cubin. She did whatever the big boys told her to. She brought penis-shaped cookies into the WY legislature one time and, another time, she took crotch-shots of all of the male state congressmen, put those on a bulletin board and had a contest as to which one matched which fellah. THIS was all on taxpayers' time. And, she went on to the US Congress after that.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 06:29 PM

" She can't deal with it now..."

i.e. she owes it to the country to put off dealing with a legal problem til after the election. Right. Anything you say.

100% drivel from the usual source.

Sorry there are those of us who don't want to buy a pig in a poke (swine metaphors being in fashion.)

Nixon was, I'm sure, happy the Watergate investigations didn't start til after the 1972 election. And that was fine with you too, correct?



For another perspective:   WSJ 13 Sept 2008

"A bipartisan Alaska legislative panel voted to subpoena Gov Sarah Palin's husband..."

"The swing vote was cast by Sen Charlie Huggins, who blasted his fellow Republicans for seeking to delay an investigation Gov Palin earlier had said she welcomed. "We are in a new era--let's get the facts on the table. "

Interesting that a Mudcatter is voting in favor of stonewalling, while a Republican in Alaska wants to pursue the investigation now.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 09:43 PM

"'The swing vote was cast by Sen Charlie Huggins, who blasted his fellow Republicans for seeking to delay an investigation Gov Palin earlier had said she welcomed. "We are in a new era--let's get the facts on the table.'"

             At the time, nobody knew Sarah Palin was going to get the VP nod.

             And you're right, for the good of the country this needs to be put off until after the election.

             What if Barack Obama actually got elected?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 09:53 PM

NCHORAGE (AP) — Hundreds of people protesting the policies of Republican vice presidential candidate and Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin lined a busy street on Saturday, waving signs and chanting "Obama!"
The protest came about two hours after Palin delivered a rousing speech at Anchorage's new convention center before leaving the state to return to the campaign trail. Palin was named John McCain's running mate on Aug. 29. This was her first return since then to her home state.

The protesters, including supporters of presidential candidate Barack Obama and those who don't agree with Palin's positions on abortion, polar bears, Iraq and other issues, lined one side of the street near Anchorage's main library building.

A much smaller number of mostly pro-Palin supporters were on the other side of the street, chanting "Sarah! Sarah!"

Police were at the scene, but there were no immediate reports of clashes.

Angie Doroff, 46, helped organize the rally. The wildlife biologist, yoga teacher and artist said she was pleased and surprised at how many people showed up.

"We're not alone. A lot of people are worried about the nomination of Sarah Palin," Doroff said, as cars drove by honking their horns in support.

Barbara Norton, a 56-year-old midwife, stood near a sign that read, "Alaskan Women for Choice."

"I think America does not understand how absolutely extreme her positions are — even to the right of George Bush and John McCain," Norton said. "She is frightening."

Anne Applegate-Scott, a 44-year-old attorney and stay-at-home mom, held a sign that said, "I don't vote for liars." Applegate-Scott said she actually voted for Palin for governor but won't vote for the McCain-Palin ticket. Palin, she thinks, has become a "product" of McCain handlers and won't let her talk to the media.

When she does talk, Applegate-Scott accused Palin of lying about her record.

"She lied about her position on earmarks and building the bridge," Applegate-Scott said referring to the infamous Bridge to Nowhere. "She talks about her being a feminist but it is convenient feminism, it doesn't cost her anything."

One woman held a sign that read, "I'm Bail'in on Palin!" Another said, "Pro Woman, Anti-Palin." Another read, "What About Healthcare?"

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 10:01 PM

"WASILLA, Alaska — Gov. Sarah Palin lives by the maxim that all politics is local, not to mention personal.

So when there was a vacancy at the top of the State Division of Agriculture, she appointed a high school classmate, Franci Havemeister, to the $95,000-a-year directorship. A former real estate agent, Ms. Havemeister cited her childhood love of cows as a qualification for running the roughly $2 million agency.

Ms. Havemeister was one of at least five schoolmates Ms. Palin hired, often at salaries far exceeding their private sector wages.

When Ms. Palin had to cut her first state budget, she avoided the legion of frustrated legislators and mayors. Instead, she huddled with her budget director and her husband, Todd, an oil field worker who is not a state employee, and vetoed millions of dollars of legislative projects.

And four months ago, a Wasilla blogger, Sherry Whitstine, who chronicles the governor's career with an astringent eye, answered her phone to hear an assistant to the governor on the line, she said.

"You should be ashamed!" Ivy Frye, the assistant, told her. "Stop blogging. Stop blogging right now!"

Ms. Palin walks the national stage as a small-town foe of "good old boy" politics and a champion of ethics reform. The charismatic 44-year-old governor draws enthusiastic audiences and high approval ratings. And as the Republican vice-presidential nominee, she points to her management experience while deriding her Democratic rivals, Senators Barack Obama and Joseph R. Biden Jr., as speechmakers who never have run anything.

But an examination of her swift rise and record as mayor of Wasilla and then governor finds that her visceral style and penchant for attacking critics — she sometimes calls local opponents "haters" — contrasts with her carefully crafted public image.

Throughout her political career, she has pursued vendettas, fired officials who crossed her and sometimes blurred the line between government and personal grievance, according to a review of public records and interviews with 60 Republican and Democratic legislators and local officials.

Still, Ms. Palin has many supporters. As a two-term mayor she paved roads and built an ice rink, and as governor she has pushed through higher taxes on the oil companies that dominate one-third of the state's economy. She stirs deep emotions. In Wasilla, many residents display unflagging affection, cheering "our Sarah" and hissing at her critics.

"She is bright and has unfailing political instincts," said Steve Haycox, a history professor at the University of Alaska. "She taps very directly into anxieties about the economic future."

"But," he added, "her governing style raises a lot of hard questions."

Ms. Palin declined to grant an interview for this article. The McCain-Palin campaign responded to some questions on her behalf and that of her husband, while referring others to the governor's spokespeople, who did not respond.

Lt. Gov. Sean Parnell said Ms. Palin had conducted an accessible and effective administration in the public's interest. "Everything she does is for the ordinary working people of Alaska," he said.

In Wasilla, a builder said he complained to Mayor Palin when the city attorney put a stop-work order on his housing project. She responded, he said, by engineering the attorney's firing.

Interviews show that Ms. Palin runs an administration that puts a premium on loyalty and secrecy. The governor and her top officials sometimes use personal e-mail accounts for state business; dozens of e-mail messages obtained by The New York Times show that her staff members studied whether that could allow them to circumvent subpoenas seeking public records.

Rick Steiner, a University of Alaska professor, sought the e-mail messages of state scientists who had examined the effect of global warming on polar bears. (Ms. Palin said the scientists had found no ill effects, and she has sued the federal government to block the listing of the bears as endangered.) An administration official told Mr. Steiner that his request would cost $468,784 to process.

When Mr. Steiner finally obtained the e-mail messages — through a federal records request — he discovered that state scientists had in fact agreed that the bears were in danger, records show.

"Their secrecy is off the charts," Mr. Steiner said.

State legislators are investigating accusations that Ms. Palin and her husband pressured officials to fire a state trooper who had gone through a messy divorce with her sister, charges that she denies. But interviews make clear that the Palins draw few distinctions between the personal and the political."...

NYT

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 10:04 PM

Local hero Palin receives rapturous homecoming

US: SARAH PALIN has returned to Alaska for the first time since becoming the Republican vice-presidential candidate, speaking yesterday at a deployment ceremony for 4,000 soldiers, including her 19-year-old son Track, who are going to Iraq, writes Denis Staunton in Fairbanks, Alaska.

Three thousand people turned out to see Ms Palin when she arrived late on Wednesday night in Fairbanks, about 350 miles north of Anchorage.

"Everywhere we're going, the response really has been overwhelming," she told the crowd, which spilled out of a vast aircraft hangar.

"I knew the coldest state would give us the warmest welcome."

One sign in the crowd said "Read my lipstick: Sarah, Sarah," a reference to Ms Palin's joke at the Republican convention that the difference between a "hockey mom" and a pitbull was lipstick.

Another alluded to the controversy over Barack Obama's use of the phrase "putting lipstick on a pig", which Republicans claim was a slur on Ms Palin.

"You can put lipstick on a community organiser but they're still just a community organiser," the sign read.

A few dozen Obama supporters gathered outside the rally but the mood was overwhelmingly celebratory and Ray Perdue, who works in a Fairbanks hotel, said the whole of Alaska was cheering Ms Palin.

"We're so excited for her, but we'll miss her here. She's done more for this state than all the last governors put together. She's not afraid of big oil. She's not afraid of anything. And she's not afraid of Barack Obama," he said...................................................

As the Obama campaign struggles to decide how to counteract the Palin phenomenon, Democratic vice-presidential candidate Joe Biden admitted that he may not have been the best choice.

"Hillary Clinton is as qualified or more qualified than I am to be vice-president of the United States of America," he said at a rally in New Hampshire.

"She's a truly close personal friend, she is qualified to be president of the United States of America, she's easily qualified to be vice-president of the United States of America, and quite frankly, it might have been a better pick than me."

© 2008 The Irish Times

There's always more than one way of reporting things - but maybe the Irish times doesn't have an axe to grind!

I've said that Sarah Palin;s views are anathema to me but reiterate that this sort of bias doesn't help to address the real issues

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 10:06 PM

sorry that last remark was with ref to the unsourced report posted at 13 Sep 08 - 09:53 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 10:09 PM

ANCHORAGE (AP) — Hundreds of people protesting the policies of Republican vice presidential candidate and Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin lined a busy street on Saturday, waving signs and chanting "Obama!"

The protest came about two hours after Palin delivered a rousing speech at Anchorage's new convention center before leaving the state to return to the campaign trail. Palin was named John McCain's running mate on Aug. 29. This was her first return since then to her home state.

The protesters, including supporters of presidential candidate Barack Obama and those who don't agree with Palin's positions on abortion, polar bears, Iraq and other issues, lined one side of the street near Anchorage's main library building.

A much smaller number of mostly pro-Palin supporters were on the other side of the street, chanting "Sarah! Sarah!"

Police were at the scene, but there were no immediate reports of clashes

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 10:21 PM

Gov. Sarah Palin, named almost two weeks ago as Republican presidential candidate John McCain's running mate, flew into Fairbanks on Wednesday night in her campaign jet and told a crowd of about 3,000 that she's spreading an Alaska message of oil drilling and reform on the trail.

'More than two dozen Barack Obama supporters waved signs outside the Palin event.'

from 'Governor brings the campaign home'
Anchorage Daily News September 11th, 2008

This report seems similar to the one also reported in the Irish Times quoted 13 Sep 08 - 10:04 PM

What is the source for the radically different version?
13 Sep 08 - 09:53 PM
repeated 13 Sep 08 - 10:09 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 10:29 PM

Well, I wouldn't have posted it if I'd seen that Amos already had. My fault. The source is the Associated Press (AP).

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 11:27 PM

From the Anchorage Daily News -

There was an anti-Palin rally called "Alaska Women Reject Palin Non-Partisan Rally" held two hours after Palin delivered her speech at the new Anchorage convention center.

The rally was organized by a 48 year old woman who is a wildlife biologist, yoga teacher and artist, Angie Doroff, who said she was surprised at how many people showed up.

"We're not alone. A lot of people are worried about the nomination of Sarah Palin," Doroff said as cars drove by, drivers honking their horns in support.

link to full article is here
http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/story/525008.html

The headline says "hundreds turn out" - the crowd was estimated at 1500.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 11:41 PM

Thanks for the link, Alice. I love some of those slogans:

Anne Applegate-Scott, a 44-year-old attorney and stay-at-home mom, held a sign that said, "I don't vote for liars."

One woman held a sign that read, "I'm Bail'in on Palin!"

And, I am proud someone made note of this:

Laura Kimmel, a 40-year-old Anchorage woman expecting her second baby in April, wore a clothes hanger with a sign attached that read, "This is not a surgical instrument. Keep abortions safe and legal."

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 11:07 AM

I find it interesting that those who discounted Obama as just a "celebrity rock star" type are now rejoicing in having a "celebrity rock star" type on their ticket.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 11:31 AM

The big difference is, Obama is at the top of the ticket. Otherwise I agree, they're both about the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Stringsinger
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 11:38 AM

Don't think of an old man who is still suffering from PSTD and can't remember important
events or a young woman who is a theocrat, anti-choice, and forces women to have babies
even if they are raped. Don't think of a one-note military saber rattler who has seen better days or the Queen of Pork on a Bridge to Nowhere.

Don't think of Alaska as the state which will secede from the US and be the refuge for
the Rapture.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 11:54 AM

" The Queen of Pork on a Bridge to Nowhere."



               That's a great line.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 12:23 PM

Emma B, two different towns, two different events.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Stringsinger
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 12:37 PM

And don't think of a confused old man who traded his disfigured wife in for a new one.
And one who can't control his temper. We've had a confused old man in the White House before named Ronald Reagan who brought our economy to its knees.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 12:37 PM

Saturday Night Live - Sarah Palin/Hillary Clinton

You tube is taking down the copyrighted videos as quickly as they are going online, but NBC.com has it on their web site here:

(you have to wait through a shampoo ad first)

For those who don't know Saturday Night Live, that is the actress Tina Fey, who is playing Sarah Palin.

nbc.com SNL Palin/Hillary

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 01:19 PM

Regarding Palin's cronyism in office:

New York Times article by Jo Becker, Peter S. Goodman and Michael Powell.

Once Elected, Palin Hired Friends and Lashed Foes

quote in part "...when there was a vacancy at the top of the State Division of Agriculture, she appointed a high school classmate, Franci Havemeister, to the $95,000-a-year directorship. A former real estate agent, Ms. Havemeister cited her childhood love of cows as a qualification for running the roughly $2 million agency."

I wish that was just a joke. It's not. It's the truth.
LINK TO ARTICLE
http://mobile.nytimes.com/article?a=229937&f=19

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 01:22 PM

just a note, there are 11 pages to that article, as it is the mobile link and in big type. Just click on "next page" to read the rest.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 02:23 PM

"...The really scary part of the Palin interview was how much she seemed like W. in 2000, and not just the way she pronounced nu-cue-lar. She had the same flimsy but tenacious adeptness at saying nothing, the same generalities and platitudes, the same restrained resentment at being pressed to be specific, as though specific is the province of silly eggheads, not people who clear brush at the ranch or shoot moose on the tundra.

Just as W. once could not name the General-General running Pakistan, so Palin took a position on Pakistan that McCain had derided as naïve when Obama took it.

"We must not, Charlie, blink, Charlie, because, Charlie, as I've said, Charlie, before, John McCain has said, Charlie, that — and remember here, Charlie, we're talking about John McCain, Charlie, who, Charlie, is John McCain and I won't be blinking, Charlie."

She tried to finesse her previous church comments about Iraq, asking worshipers to pray "that there is a plan, and that plan is God's plan." Earnestly repeating after her tutors, she said she had meant to echo Abraham Lincoln, that in war we must pray that we are on God's side rather than that he is on ours. But her original comments sounded more W. than Abe — taking your policy and ideology and giving it the hallowed mantle of a mission from God.

Sarah has single-handedly ushered out the "Sex and the City" era, and made the sexy new model for America a retro one — the glamorous Pioneer Woman, packing a gun, a baby and a Bible.

Her explosion onto the scene made Obama seem even more like a windy, wispy egghead. Like W., Sarah has the power of positive unthinking. But now we may want to think about where ignorance and pride and no self-doubt has gotten us. Being quick on the trigger might be good in moose hunting, but in dealing with Putin, a little knowledge might come in handy." (MAureen Dowd.

As usual, Maureen hits it in the center. Palin's energetic think-less style is so much like W in 2000 as to give one nightmares.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 02:40 PM

You're right, Alice--that SNL is just dynamite.




And you're right too, Amos--and so is Maureen, unfortunately.

2008 is starting to look really depressingly like 2000--with people voting on the basis of which candidate they'd like to have a beer with.

Complete with clueless fools--who obviously have learned nothing from the 2000 election--voting for Nader--again. He's on 45 states' ballots this time--more than ever.

At least Bob Barr and Ron Paul may give a bit of balance to the minor party drain this time.


Let's be sure to get Sarah's exact views on the illegal immigration issue--so that either the intellectual giants who talk about "Juan McCain" will hear it--or Hispanics will clearly hear where both the presidential and VP candidates of the Republican ticket stand on this issue--since McCain now says the path to citizenship for illegal immigration will have to wait til the border is "secured"--i.e. in a few eons.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 02:46 PM

Why is everyone getting so excited that Sarah Palin is unprepared to work in any job requiring sound judgment on any kind of substantive matter ?

She is the modern version of a young, misleading dishonorable Congressman named Richard Nixon, pure and simple. American politics is full of such dishonest people running for public office–it's the price we pay for the freedom to choose our public officials.

Most people cannot tell the difference between good and bad public policy–they depend on the highest levels of the press to inform them fairly. Traditionally, that was a few major newspapers in the biggest cities–NYTimes, Washington Post, Wall Street Journal news reporters, Chicago Tribune, LA Times, Boston Globe, Philadelphia Enquirer, and perhaps a few more papers, and the television networks–CBS, NBC, ABC, and then CNN. Now we have anyone with a website and a camera and a website saying that they are the keepers of the holy grail of knowing the better candidate when they hear them.

But don't despair. On;y one week has gone by since John McCain gave us Sarah Palin as his running partner for vice president. As word spreads that she believes God supports the policies she supports and that's why you should, too, the American people will wake up. Most people like to find their own gods, not have them presented on television as something they can have if only they vote the right way. The American people may make dumb choices but they're not stupid. Her only hope for getting elected is to keep her mouth completely shut between now and election day. People take elections for President seriously. She has about as much ability to persuade people on serious matters as did Richard Nixon that Watergate was caused by his political enemies. SO take care, America and keep your eyes and ears open. The great American ship of politics is about to start informing you of all you need to know about attack hack Sarah Palin. If she had a five o'clock shadow, she would be the spitting image of Richard Nixon.

— Posted by Will Rogers (Not the original Will Rogers, I suppose) on a NYT Comments section

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 05:47 PM

"At least Bob Barr and Ron Paul may give a bit of balance to the minor party drain this time..."


                      Ron Paul might, and as far as I'm concerned, he deserves every bit of support he can muster. But I think Sarah Palin took most of the wind out of Bob Barr's sails.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 09:40 PM

What a minor list of duties the mayor of Wasilla has:

Palin cut own duties as mayor of Wasilla

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26695078/
"The universe of the mayor of Wasilla is sharply circumscribed even by the standards of small towns, which limited Palin's exposure to issues such as health care, social services, the environment and education.

Firefighting and schools, two of the main elements of local governance, are handled by the Matanuska-Susitna Borough, the regional government for a huge swath of central Alaska. The state has jurisdiction over social services and environmental regulations such as stormwater management for building projects."

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 10:40 PM

From a link at RCP:

""WORSE THAN BUSH.... Forget Sarah Palin's multiple scandals. And put aside her series of demonstrably false claims. And disregard, for a moment, her thin resume, lack of qualifications, and apparent disinterest in current events.

Forget all of that for a moment and just consider how she likes to govern.

[W]hen there was a vacancy at the top of the State Division of Agriculture, she appointed a high school classmate, Franci Havemeister, to the $95,000-a-year directorship. A former real estate agent, Ms. Havemeister cited her childhood love of cows as a qualification for running the roughly $2 million agency.

Ms. Havemeister was one of at least five schoolmates Ms. Palin hired, often at salaries far exceeding their private sector wages.

When Ms. Palin had to cut her first state budget, she avoided the legion of frustrated legislators and mayors. Instead, she huddled with her budget director and her husband, Todd, an oil field worker who is not a state employee, and vetoed millions of dollars of legislative projects.

And four months ago, a Wasilla blogger, Sherry Whitstine, who chronicles the governor's career with an astringent eye, answered her phone to hear an assistant to the governor on the line, she said.

"You should be ashamed!" Ivy Frye, the assistant, told her. "Stop blogging. Stop blogging right now!"

Palin's political style is more than a little frightening. She attacks critics, pursues petty vendettas, ignores mayors and state lawmakers, blurs the line between government business and personal grievances, demands strict secrecy in all matters, refuses to engage in policy matters in any real depth, tries to fire state employees who dare to challenge her demands, and insists on surrounding herself with childhood friends and church members, appointing unqualified allies to key government posts. (The Times noted, "The Wasilla High School yearbook archive now doubles as a veritable directory of state government.")

A conservative radio personality and longtime friend of Palin explained that the governor considers her detractors "bad people who are anti-Alaska."

Reading the piece, and realizing that Sarah Palin may very well be one heartbeat from the presidency in just three months, is nothing short of chilling. It's hard not to think Palin would be a poor choice to help lead a convenience store, worse yet the executive branch of the United States government.

That John McCain picked her for the ticket is more than enough to raise questions about whether he has any idea what he's doing.

—Steve Benen"

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 12:45 PM

The mentor who selected and groomed Sarah Palin to begin her political career is now speaking out:

Sarah Palin has been touting herself as fiscal watchdog throughout her political career. But Palin's tenure as mayor of Wasilla, Alaska, was characterized by waste, cronyism and incompetence, according to government officials in the Matanuska Valley, where she began her fairy-tale political rise.

"Executive abilities? She doesn't have any," said former Wasilla City Council member Nick Carney, who selected and groomed Palin for her first political race in 1992 and served with her after her election to the City Council.

Four years later, the ambitious Palin won the Wasilla mayor's office -- after scorching the "tax and spend mentality" of her incumbent opponent. But Carney, Palin's estranged former mentor, and others in city hall were astounded when they found out about a lavish expenditure of Palin's own after her 1996 election. According to Carney, the newly elected mayor spent more than $50,000 in city funds to redecorate her office, without the council's authorization.
+++

Click Here

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 01:00 PM

The full article interviewing her mentor Nick Carney is actually at salon.com.
My previous message was a link to a partial quote. Here is the full article link and more of the story.

By David Talbot

Sep. 17, 2008 | Sarah Palin has been touting herself as fiscal watchdog throughout her political career. But Palin's tenure as mayor of Wasilla, Alaska, was characterized by waste, cronyism and incompetence, according to government officials in the Matanuska Valley, where she began her fairy-tale political rise.

"Executive abilities? She doesn't have any," said former Wasilla City Council member Nick Carney, who selected and groomed Palin for her first political race in 1992 and served with her after her election to the City Council.

Four years later, the ambitious Palin won the Wasilla mayor's office -- after scorching the "tax and spend mentality" of her incumbent opponent. But Carney, Palin's estranged former mentor, and others in city hall were astounded when they found out about a lavish expenditure of Palin's own after her 1996 election. According to Carney, the newly elected mayor spent more than $50,000 in city funds to redecorate her office, without the council's authorization.

"I thought it was an outrageous expense, especially for someone who had run as a budget cutter," said Carney. "It was also illegal, because Sarah had not received the council's approval."

According to Carney, Palin's office makeover included flocked, red wallpaper. "It looked like a bordello."

Although Carney says he no longer has documentation of the expenditures, in his recollection Palin paid for the office face-lift with money from a city highway fund that was used to plow snow, grade roads and fill potholes -- essential municipal services, particularly in weather-battered Alaska.

Carney confronted Mayor Palin at a City Council hearing, and was shocked by her response.

"I braced her about it," he said. "I told her it was against the law to make such a large expenditure without the council taking a vote. She said, 'I'm the mayor, I can do whatever I want until the courts tell me I can't.'"

"I'll never forget it -- it's one of the few times in my life I've been speechless," Carney added. "It would have been easier for her to finesse it. She had the votes on the council by then, she controlled it. But she just pushed forward. That's Sarah. She just has no respect for rules and regulations."

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/09/17/palin_mayor/print.html

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 01:57 AM

She's a watch dog all right but Palin has already made a poor National Security move. Perhaps her watch dog was asleep.

BREAKING NEWS

She was conducting the official government of Alaska, including remarks about her selection as a VP candidate on .....get ready for this.....
her free Yahoo email account!

It has just been hacked and diseminated on the web.

Will the Patriot Act be used to arrest the hackers as terrorists?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 02:21 AM

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,24364783-401,00.html

http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2008/09/sarah_palins_yahoo_hacking_gov.html

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080918/ap_on_el_pr/palin_hacked

I swear none of these links above are by the Onion.

It appears true.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 07:27 AM

If the McCain campaign is smart, they'll use that account to put out some disinformation and let the dumb bastard hackers run with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 10:55 AM

Read Palin's interview with Sean Hannity. She sounds just like the shrub: click here!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 11:15 AM

What the Republicans experienced negatively with her in Alaska has not really hit the main stream news. I'm still waiting.

For anyone checking this thread, please read what her Republican mentor in Wasilla had to say in my message posted yesterday.

This morning, though, the discussion on MSNBC was how many major Republican party people are very disturbed about the actual facts coming out about Palin, what she did in Wasilla, and what she does not know, how obviously unprepared she if for a national office. The serious members of the party are aware that she was chosen as a symbol to emotionally stir up the base, but that she has no real substance behind the symbolic image she portrays.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 11:23 AM

She has shot moose. Has Obama shot moose?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 11:27 AM

Rig:

No, but he has hot shoes, which she does not.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 11:52 AM

Reality Check on Palin video.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 12:05 PM

Oh, my!!! FALSEhoods? From such a PRETTY person? I am shocked, I tell you. Shocked!! LYING? SARAH?? I just can't get my mind around this. Are you sure????!!!



A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 12:31 PM

I've never heard Hannity but he comes across as a real sleazeball. Palin doesn't fare much better- it wouldn't have surprised me to have her use 'misunderestimate'.

Frankly, Miss America candidates seem, by and large, to have just about as good a grasp as she.

You know, this time- if the American people vote them in I will lose all hope for our electorate. It would mean that our pop culture, fed on sound bytes and the National Enquirer, is emblematic of our whole nation.

As Palin would say: Absolutely.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 01:24 PM

If I was a moose, I'd vote for Obama!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 01:27 PM

There ya go, Rig, Eb says encouragingly.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 01:35 PM

"If Sarah Palin turns out to be the next Ronald Reagan, then it will be up to us (with our BIG FAT RÉSUMÉS) to define the new mode of anti-intellectualism in America.

One starting point would be a study mentioned in this week's Washington Post. Two political scientists gave volunteers who described themselves as "conservative" a list of Bush's prewar claims that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. To some of the volunteers they provided a thorough, neutral refutation—the 2004 Duelfer report that concluded Iraq had no WMDs.

Now here's the amazing result: The ones who received the refutation were vastly more likely to believe the Bush view than the other group. In other words, the mere presence of "expert" refutation—i.e., an opposing view from people with BIG FAT RÉSUMÉS, as Sarah Palin calls them, made the conservatives less likely to believe the truth and stick to their guns. The researchers call this the "backfire effect" and say it shows up mostly with conservatives.

Sending corrections to obvious mistruths, one of them concluded, is only likely to backfire. The very act of arguing against those corrections seems to make conservatives believe them more strongly and reinforces their view that anything from those people with BFR has to be wrong."

Faskinatin', Olive!!! (From Slate.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 02:37 PM

To them, everything is a fucking conspiracy, Amos. My daughter has a work colleague who stood on the sidewalk as Obama drove in from the airport the other day holding a sign of the Russian hammer & sickle with Obama's name on it, while she held a McCain bumper sticker in the other. They are entrenched idjits.

Ebbie, I heard a woman who called in to NPR the other day, talking about her take on Palin. I loved it. She said, "I'd buy Avon from her" but she didn't think she was qualified to run the country. THAT'S what she reminds me of...SOME Avon or Amway sales-types. No offence to them in general...my good friend is one, but she's also NOT a Palin!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 02:45 PM

Well, I hear ya. I'd buy lingerie from her,t oo, if I were in the market. Which, may I add, I am not.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 05:51 PM

"There ya go, Rig, Eb says encouragingly."


                  And if I was a moose, and Sarah shot my great uncle, I'd be hugely upset, even if he was working as a community organizer in Chicago.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 07:16 PM

Now that is the Rigs we like...

But seriously, this election shouldn't be about Ms. Sarah... It should be about the guy who picked her and his **judgement***, or lack thereof...

Me thinks that ol' Sir John has slipped a cog or two in the thinking department...

And lastly, anyone here that song entitled "Cows With Guns"??? How about one entitled "Moose With Guns"???

B;~0

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 07:40 PM

I just saw John McCain saying Sarah Palin knows more about energy than anyone else in this country. Oh.... my..... gawd.... he has really lost his mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 07:40 PM

How about: "Lipstick on a Moose with Guns?"

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 07:42 PM

She certainly knows a lot about being in bed with the oil and gas people.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 07:43 PM

Amos, AVON sells cosmetics... not lingerie.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 08:04 PM

Well, I guess I knew that, Alice, but we were dealing in hypotheticals, and if she were selling lingerie, I'd have to say I would be interested. But not in the product.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 10:01 PM

From Republican Senator Chuck Hegel, senior member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee as reported on cnn.com today:

(CNN) – Sen. Chuck Hagel has become one of the most prominent Republicans to openly question VP nominee Sarah Palin's qualifications on Thursday.

"She doesn't have any foreign policy credentials," Hagel said in an interview with the Omaha World Herald. "You get a passport for the first time in your life last year? I mean, I don't know what you can say. You can't say anything."

On her first overseas trip last year, Palin traveled to Kuwait and Germany to visit Alaskan National Guard troops.

In defending her own foreign policy experience, Palin has said that Alaska's proximity to Russia gives her international expertise. Hagel, a senior member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, called that notion "insulting to the American people."

"I do think in a world that is so complicated, so interconnected and so combustible, you really got to have some people in charge that have some sense of the bigger scope of the world," he added. "I think that's just a requirement."

Hagel, who broke with fellow Republicans over the Iraq war, has said he will not endorse either major party candidate. The Nebraska senator has said he would have considered being Obama's running mate and was rumored to be on his VP short list.

Although Hagel is a longtime friend of GOP presidential nominee John McCain, he traveled to the Middle East with Obama in July. Hagel also came to Obama's defense in May after the Democratic nominee and McCain had a dispute over the best way to deal with Iran.

Hagel, whose Senate term is drawing to a close, is not running for re-election to the Senate.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 01:40 AM

"...The main complaint against Palin has been her lack of experience. That's fortunate for her, since "experience"--especially measured in a linear way--fails to capture exactly what Palin lacks. Yes, two years as governor is less than you'd like, as is four years as senator. The real problem, though, is that Palin has no record of thinking about national or international policy. Bobby Jindal, another Republican veep contender, has barely more experience than Palin, but he is a respected policy intellectual. Pat Buchanan ran for president without ever having served in elective office, but he had engaged more deeply than most presidential candidates in policy questions.

Engagement, not experience, is the difference between Palin's qualifications and Obama's. Obama has a longstanding interest in national and (to a lesser extent) international issues, and has answered questions on all those issues in extensive detail. Palin has dealt almost exclusively with parochial issues in a wildly atypical state. (Her fiscal experience, which consists of divvying up oil lucre, offers better preparation to serve as president of Saudi Arabia than the United States.) It's possible Palin has harbored a long-standing, secret passion for policy wonkery, but the few signs available thus far--her convention speech that spelled out "new-clear weapons," her evident lack of familiarity with the term "Bush Doctrine"--suggest otherwise. The Republican intelligentsia is frantically tutoring her while they run out the clock until November 4.

In lieu of opening Palin to regular questioning from the press corps, of the sort the other three candidates have all undergone many times before, the McCain campaign is helpfully leaking positive appraisals of her studiousness. "Despite the worries, [Palin] struck many campaign officials as more calm and cerebral than expected," reported Newsweek. "She was quick to ask questions, and to 'engage in a back and forth' with briefers." See, the McCain campaign says she's on the ball. That settles it, right?

But, somewhere in the recesses of my mind, this admiring appraisal of the prospective veep's intellect struck a familiar chord. With a quick search, I discovered that, indeed, the same was said of Dan Quayle in 1988. Twenty years ago, The Washington Post reported, "Bush aides, who were getting their first in-depth exposure to Quayle, were impressed by his attention span, the quality of his questions and the facility with which he moved through the agenda."

Other parallels stood out as well. Conservatives received Quayle's selection rapturously. L. Brent Bozell pronounced himself "ecstatic," and Jerry Falwell called the surprise pick "a stroke of genius." After a media frenzy, Quayle's speech was well-received. The convention hall burst into cheers of "We want Dan!" NBC anchor Tom Brokaw said that Quayle executed "flawlessly," and CBS's Bruce Morton called it "a good speech."

Questions about Quayle's readiness remained, but he did his best to turn them into elite condescension toward small town America. Quayle, in his acceptance speech, spoke movingly about the small towns in Indiana where he had grown up, and later disparaged Dukakis for "sneer[ing] at common sense advice, Midwestern advice."

Today, Quayle is remembered as a disaster. But, during the campaign, his supporters believed that media skepticism of Quayle had rallied ordinary Americans to his side. Dukakis "looks down on his fellow Americans. He looks down on Bush and Dan Quayle as--in his word--'pathetic,' " wrote right-wing columnist Michael Novak. "Thus, the 'feeding frenzy' of the press in New Orleans stirred a national backlash. It united all the scorned of America as one."

Conservatives are saying the same things about Palin. "Elite opinion," insisted McCain strategist Steve Schmidt, "looks down with contempt at people who are not part of their world." As Palin herself said, "If you're not a member in good standing of the Washington elite, then some in the media consider a candidate unqualified for that reason alone." To the right, the mere fact that the press questions her fitness proves that she is one of them.

As the original rationales for Palin melt away, this bond has become unshakable. Her lack of qualifications turns out to be her greatest qualification...."(The New Republic)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 07:28 AM

That's a good point, Amos. There must be studies somewhere that look into why "anti-intellectualism" is such a huge draw in American culture.
                      Maybe that's why religion has become such a big part of American politics. They take the part of the human brain that would normally be inquisitive and calculating, and replace it with something that is dead and static. That way they don't have to think about real issues, and happily vote for the candidate who seems to be the dumbest.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 09:55 AM

A recent study found that those who reacted the most heavily when startled tended to be conservative.

Seriously!

Well this immediately tells you that going with the flow of time is not a strong suit for such folks,m eaning a larger amoutn of their attention is lockled up on the past.

When life looks overwhelming, or confusing, the natural instinct is to lock on to some solution, even if it isn't rational, to ward off the confusion; and hold on to it. THus are religions built and belief systems perpetrated.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 09:58 AM

NPR covered the startle study this morning. It's nonsense. There are conservatives who are calm, liberals who are calm, conservatives who startle, liberals who startle.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 12:07 PM

Well, if you can't make the "startle" connection, something else must be going on. At the very least, it seems to be irrational.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 01:12 PM

Denial is not just a river, its a bitch

http://usera.imagecave.com/donuel/Fivestages.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 01:27 PM

Doug, what really scares me is not Palin but the stupidity of the uninformed American
public. We could be looking at a political lynch mob with torches and pitchforks.

Palin is a shell. There are those who read into her candidacy what they want to regarding god, gays, guns, wars and all the lipstick pig distractions.

She has shown herself to be ignorant and if you don't know what the Bush Doctrine is,
it's the doctrine of preemptive military strikes on a foreign country. Most politically informed people know what this is and it's completely disingenuous to say that most people don't
know what this is. Maybe there are these yahoos that don't know but I wouldn't count you
as among them. I have more respect for you than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 01:34 PM

String-

Washington Post:

Name That Doctrine

By Michael Gerson
Friday, September 19, 2008; Page A19

It is an odd thing to observe a historical debate on events about which one possesses the knowledge of a participant -- something like watching archeologists dig and sift through your living room, proposing their own interpretations of your photos and knickknacks. And it raises a disturbing prospect: That most such debates are conducted by experts possessing great confidence and little knowledge.

This controversy began when ABC's Charles Gibson asked Sarah Palin to give her view of the Bush doctrine. Palin's vague answer provoked a dismissive response from Gibson, who defined the doctrine as "anticipatory self-defense." Charles Krauthammer came to Palin's defense, arguing that there were four consecutive versions of the Bush doctrine, culminating in the democracy promotion agenda of Bush's second inaugural address -- a description that is closer to the truth. Joe Klein, with absolute and unjustified self-assurance, then insisted, "There was only one Bush doctrine" -- the preemption of emerging threats. One frustrated Canadian columnist concluded: "It turns out nobody really knows what the Bush doctrine is."

But that is not quite true. The Bush doctrine is not the Da Vinci Code. It developed over time, but it developed according to the intentions of a single man. The content of the Bush doctrine directly reflects President Bush's convictions about the nature of the post-Sept. 11 world. And the form of that doctrine is something I worked directly with him to shape.

There are many speeches that could be cited. But when President Bush's foreign policy vision was under general assault in late 2005 and early 2006 -- the bloody low point of the Iraq war -- he set out in his 2006 State of the Union address to defend three prongs or elements of the Bush doctrine against growing American isolationism:

· Aggressively confronting emerging security threats. From the start, President Bush stated that the preemption of new-age threats -- terrorist networks, the regimes that aid and shelter them, and weapons of mass destruction -- is not always a military task. Economic and diplomatic pressure are the preferred and likely tools for dealing with outlaw regimes. And there is no doubt that the Iraq war has sapped public support for military options, even as a last resort. But Iraq shows the challenges of implementing preemption; it does not disprove the theory. If Iraq had possessed stockpiles of nerve gas and biological agents, who would now question the need to forcefully confront that threat? In this election, it is Barack Obama who has proposed the extension of greater American power into the dangerous border regions of Pakistan, the current home base of al-Qaeda. What possible reason could there be for such action except the preemption of threats to America and its allies?

· Democracy promotion. The idea that America benefits in the long run from the spread of a liberal, democratic, free-trading world order is not a Bush innovation, it is a post-World War II consensus. Not every tyrant in recent history has been an enemy of America. But every major enemy of America in recent history has been a tyrant. Bush's true innovation was to apply this consensus -- at least occasionally -- to the Arab Middle East. It is not an easy task. There are many valid arguments about the pace, phasing and methods of reform. But eventually there is no alternative. The dictators of the Middle East not only rule unjustly but generally ineffectively, and their oppression pushes most opposition toward the radical mosque. As these nations fail and become unstable, the question will inevitably be asked of any president: What did you do to promote a viable political alternative to Islamism while you had the time?

· Fighting disease and promoting development. This is perhaps the most unexpected and underappreciated element of the Bush doctrine. Bush, in some ways, has accepted a "root causes" theory of world disorder, from terrorism, to criminal and drug networks, to pandemics and refugees. So he has doubled overseas development assistance during his time in office and nearly quadrupled aid to Africa (an increasingly important battlefield in the war of ideas against radical Islam). He has tied some of this increased aid, through the Millennium Challenge Corporation, to improvements in governance that make other forms of economic and social progress possible. Both of the current candidates for president have indicated they will expand global aid as well.

It really doesn't matter much if the next president and vice president can identify these three elements of the Bush doctrine. They will live by them anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 01:54 PM

That is completely disingenuous, and completely overlooks the largest departure from traditional international policy in Bush's history, the departure of unilateral aggression. If Gerson was as much "there" as he says, he sure was not paying attention, to have been so bamboozled by such a thin coat of sugar sprinkles.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 01:57 PM

Amos,

I believe that he was the speechwriter at the time.


I think perhaps you have been bamboozled by such a thin coat of sugar sprinkles, by the Obama camp.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 02:56 PM

"...what really scares me is not Palin but the stupidity of the uninformed American public..."


                     If we solved that problem, we would surely be choosing between some other candidates.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 03:40 PM

Ain't that the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 03:44 PM

THe Obama camp has nothing to do with this, Bruce; take off your blinders. There is no reason for any of the items cited by Gerson to be especially identified as "The Bush Doctrine"--they are just ordinary operating principles, for the most part. Unilateral aggression, on the other hand, is a salient departure from tradition, and was not embraced as a major policy by anyone else, and is much more important than those other sugar-pop statements as a "Doctrine." Unilateral aggression is as big a change of position for the US as the Monroe Doctrine was.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 03:48 PM

"But when President Bush's foreign policy vision was under general assault in late 2005 and early 2006 -- the bloody low point of the Iraq war -- he set out in his 2006 State of the Union address to defend three prongs or elements of the Bush doctrine against growing American isolationism: "


Now, if you want I will refer to the bombing of allies as the "Obama Doctrine".


Or you can call your version the "Defined by Bush-Haters Bush Doctrine"

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 08:51 PM

A Palin supporter The great American Electorate

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 08:58 PM

Whew the cartoon I did about the 5 stages of Republicans was the worst bomb yet.

IT goes to show ya that I thought it was the best I had done in a year.

I stepped out of humor bounds and didn't know it.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 08:47 AM

"I stepped out of humor bounds and didn't know it. "


1st time you're a wit.


2nd time you're a half-wit.







3rd time you're a nitwit.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 10:15 AM

The lake at Wasilla is now dead, thanks to Palin's time as mayor.

-------Sarah Palin's Dead Lake

read the whole article here (click)
"I try to avoid driving to Wasilla so I won't get depressed," added the official, who asked for his name to be withheld, to avoid Palin's "wrath."

"You get visually mugged when you drive through there. I take the long way, through the back roads, just to avoid it."

Wasilla City Council member Dianne Woodruff hears the same lament about her town all the time. "Everywhere in Alaska, you hear people say, 'We don't want to be another Wasilla.' We're not just the state's meth capital, we're the ugly box-store capital. Was Sarah a good steward of this beautiful valley? No. I think it comes from her lack of experience and awareness of other places, how other cities try to preserve what makes them attractive and livable.

-------

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 10:59 AM

I think that article assigns too much blame on Palin. The problem began before she was mayor and continues today.

Wasilla had a great example in Anchorage for its helter skelter growth. Anchorage is a sprawling city with little or no apparent plan, it has no heart, no core.

As for the lake, on the Oregon coast is a pretty little lake that had, and perhaps still has, the same problem. It became choked with weeds and algae and its oxygen count went way down. The town of Lincoln City called in experts, few of whom agreed on what to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 11:53 AM

DOn't worry about it Donuel. It WAS a good cartoon. Maybe just a bit more than folks are prepared to digest.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 12:17 PM

Palin claims right to see all state files
By Jason Leopold
Online Journal Contributing Writer


Sep 18, 2008, 00:18

Email this article
Printer friendly page


Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin is maneuvering to stop an investigation into an alleged abuse of power, in part, by claiming that she has an unlimited right to pry into the personnel records of all state employees, including the state trooper who divorced her sister.

Palin's new position was summed up in a Sept. 9 letter from Alaska Attorney General Talis Colberg to the state legislature, which has authorized an independent counsel probe into whether Palin and her staff illegally accessed confidential personnel records of her ex-brother-in-law, state trooper Mike Wooten.

The probe also focuses on Palin's firing of state Public Safety Commissioner Walter Monegan in July after he refused to fire Wooten.

Colberg's argument is that Palin can access confidential files of any state employee she chooses and thus the allegation that she got unauthorized access to Wooten's personnel records -- by whatever means -- is moot.

"It does not violate the State Personnel Act for Department of Administration Staff to provide confidential personnel information to the governor or her staff -- or for the governor or her staff to receive that information -- in the course and scope of their official duties," the attorney general wrote.

"The governor or her staff may, in the course and scope of their official duties, review a confidential personnel file to ensure, for example, that an employee is adequately supervised, appropriately evaluated, and appropriately disciplined. In appropriate cases, the governor may also direct the termination of a state employee."

This legal analysis appears to be an attempt to provide Palin and her staffers with legal cover for allegedly disseminating confidential information about Wooten in a campaign to get him fired.

However, John Cyr, executive director of the Public Safety Employees Association which represents Alaska State Troopers, disputes the notion of that Palin can have unlimited access to all state employee records.

"It is illegal to access employee medical and personnel files unless it's on a 'need to know basis,'" Cyr said about Palin's assertion of this unlimited authority. "This is outrageous."

Palin's new defense line became necessary when it turned out that an earlier claim that Wooten's personnel file was public record through his divorce/custody case with Palin's sister turned out to be untrue.

Palin, her private attorney Thomas Van Flein and McCain campaign officials had said Wooten released his confidential medical and employment records as part of those proceedings. Palin's office even posted Wooten's Feb. 7 agreement to release those records as part of the case discovery.

....Online Journal

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 12:37 PM

A slightly snarky essay on the nature of the Republican VP candidacy, By Kerry Tomasi, in the Online Journal.


Sep 22, 2008, 00:13

"As Paul Begala recently put it: "If McCain were to say the moon was made of green cheese, we can be certain that Obama would pounce on it, and point out it's actually made of rock. And you just know the headline in the paper the next day would read: CANDIDATES CLASH ON LUNAR LANDSCAPE."

And so, for the past eight years or so, the Republican Party has been able to 'muddy the waters' on virtually every issue and/or get away with redefining black as white, up as down, and wrong as right with few, if any, consequences. They've even gotten away with marketing a scheme to transfer wealth from the middle and lower classes to those at the very top as "what's best for working families."

I was recently chided about becoming a registered Republican. Here was my response. I think it's apropos to the subject . . .

"Truth is, I'm just way too 'conservative' for that particular party right now. I'm far too conservative . . .

"Fiscally -- as in not irresponsibly running up, and passing on trillions of dollars of debt to future generations, or borrowing money from China to fund tax cuts for millionaires.

"Environmentally -- as in conserving our environment for those future generations, so they'll at least have clean air to breath and water to drink as they work off all that debt.

"Socially -- as in keeping the government completely out of our personal lives.

"Internationally -- as in not invading other countries under false pretenses in order to steal their stuff, bankrupting our own in the process.

"Domestically -- as in preserving our country's assets and not selling them off in the dead of night to the highest bidder, like some crazed crack addict needing money for a fix.

"Governmentally -- as in adhering to constitutional precepts like habeas corpus; being free from illegal search and seizures; exercising our right to free speech without fear of retribution; not torturing confessions out of suspects; maintaining the separation of powers; etc, etc."

The point is . . . the Republican leadership has managed to turn everything conservatives once stood for inside out and backwards. They've become a party dominated by a Dobson/Robertson/Hagee brand of religious extremism (working feverishly to bring about the end of the world and the Rapture), and those who are so overcome by a compulsive need to have it all -- and I mean all -- that it entirely overwhelms any sense of personal integrity and societal responsibility, making them completely antithetical to a democratic republic.

John McCain and Sarah Palin represent both sides of this spectrum perfectly, and are therefore a Neo-Republican match made in heaven.

Which brings me back to McCain's "decision" (it wasn't really his decision you know) that Palin be the one to step into the presidency if something were to happen to him.

Let me ask a simple, semi-theoretical, question.

Does anyone reading this (other than that 30 percent unflappable right-wing base) really and truly and sincerely believe Sarah Palin should be our next president? That she is the best, most qualified candidate, out of all the people in this country, for that job?

No, of course not. No one, outside of that "base," who puts any thought at all into the matter, would think that.

But this is exactly what you're contemplating when you say "I'm leaning McCain" or "I haven't quite made up my mind."

McCain is 72, with a history of recurring cancer, and some kind of weird "tick" that causes him to fiddle with his wedding band obsessively (early signs?). This is not a gamble we in this country can afford right now. We're not talking about someone who would step in if the mayor of Wasilla were incapacitated; this is President of the United States, at one of the most crucial phases in our nation's history!

And that's why I like the pick of Sarah Palin for VP.

Because it lays bare -- stark naked in broad daylight -- the ruse that is McCain's slogan, "Country First."

This cynical choice did more in one fell swoop to expose the Neo-Republicans for who they are, and where their priorities lie, than folks like me have been able to accomplish in 10 years.

If McCain is elected, and the final stages of this conquest (they'll refer to it as "reform") are successful, you will not recognize this country in six-seven years (maybe a lot sooner). This neocon crew has every intention of dismantling what's left of the middle class, simultaneously shredding whatever safety net there is, leaving the vast majority of us to fight like dogs over the scraps (under the watchful eye of a privatized "police state"), while they sneer contemptuously from behind their gated and guarded walls.

..."

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 12:40 PM

This whole Wooten thing would have been over and done with by now if she had not been asked to join the McCain ticket. Obviously she can't take the time to deal with it now, and it has nothing to do with the office she is seeking.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 12:51 PM

"...nothing to do with the office she is seeking"

Stonewalling, avoiding accountability, abuse of power... I think that has a lot to do with the character of the kind of person we want as a VP.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 03:09 PM

Ah, but Rig, you are mistaken. As a demonstration of her sense of proproety, her sense of fair play, her notion of ethics, it has everything to do with the job she is seeking, unless you want to see a mini-me Cheney-in-Training in the slot.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 04:20 PM

Wrong on all counts. The Alaskan Democrats are trying to make a mountain out of a molehill. The whole thing had no importance at all until she was selected for VP.

                Once the election is over, she'll have all the time in the world to prove it.

                The press could better spend its time by looking into the association of Barack Obama and Tony Rezko.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 04:22 PM

It's not the Alaskan Democrats. There are several Republicans who are involved in the investigation as well. It has never been a partisan thing. Alaskans are (quite rightly, in my opinion) concerned that Palin may have been abusing her power.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 04:23 PM

...and the investigation was ongoing before Palin was nominated for VP.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 04:26 PM

ANd if you don't think abuse of power has any bearing on recommendations for high executive power, why, I am surprised. You sound so human in other posts.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 04:27 PM

A MAJORITY OF REPUBLICANS in Alaska legislature dealing with this issue voted for this investigation. You can't blame the Democrats.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 09:18 PM

"...and the investigation was ongoing before Palin was nominated for VP."


                     Exactly the point. If they'd gotten it over in a timely fashion, they wouldn't have a political issue. Now, they'll just have to wait a couple of months.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 09:53 PM

Odd how you keep slipping the point about their being a connection...


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 09:58 PM

The point? You mean that McCain chose Palin because she had agreed to be investigated by the legislature?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 10:18 PM

Timely fashion meaning that they should have finished it before she was nominated? How the hell were they supposed to know McCain was going to pick her as his running mate? Investigations take as long as they take. She was under investigation by people in her own party, as well as the other party, and rather suddenly and unexpectedly, she got named as McCain's running mate.

The only thing that's political about this investigation is the way she and her people are stonewalling it, and the way they are trying to make it look like it's a Democratic initiative instead of what it really is - a bipartisan initiative.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 10:21 PM

Villain!! Villain!! Go to, you ne'er-do-well jackanapes!!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 11:26 PM

"Villain!! Villain!! Go to, you ne'er-do-well jackanapes!!"


                Is that a quote from a Jack-in-the-Box ad, or...

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 03:36 PM

Well, I'm trying to maintain my reputation as Mr. Nice Guy and stay out of all this politician-bashing, but I have to say that I can't resist Doonesbury's current Sarah Palin Doll series. Take a look.

-Joe-

---

More on Sarah Palin dolls (click)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 03:54 PM

I like this too from Joe O's link:

"We do not support government bailouts of private institutions. Government interference in the markets exacerbates problems in the marketplace and causes the free market to take longer to correct itself."

-- Republican Party platform, 2008

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 04:09 PM

Joe there is a real S. Palin doll already.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 05:03 PM

"Sept. 23, 2008 | WASILLA, Alaska -- Before Sarah Palin decided to run for the Wasilla mayor's office in 1996 against incumbent John Stein, the Palins and Steins were friends. John Stein had helped launch Palin's political career, mentoring the hockey mom during her 1994 run for City Council, along with veteran council member Nick Carney. Stein's wife, Karen Marie, went to aerobics classes with Palin.

But when she announced her candidacy for Stein's seat, vowing to overturn the city's "old boy" establishment, a different Sarah Palin emerged. "Things got very ugly," recalled Naomi Tigner, a friend of the Steins. "Sarah became very mean-spirited."

The Wasilla mayor's seat is nonpartisan, and Mayor Stein, a former city planner who had held the post for nine years, ran a businesslike campaign that stressed his experience and competency. But Palin ignited the traditionally low-key race with scorching social issues, injecting "God, guns and abortion into the race -- things that had nothing to do with being mayor of a small town," according to Tigner.

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Palin's mayoral campaign rode the wave of conservative, evangelical fervor that was sweeping Alaska in the '90s. Suddenly candidates' social values, not their ability to manage the roads and sewer systems, were dominating the debate. "Sarah and I were both Republicans, but this was an entirely new slant to local politics -- much more aggressive than anything I'd ever seen," said Stein, looking back at the election that put Palin on the political map.

There was a knife-sharp, personal edge to Palin's campaign that many locals found disturbing, particularly because of the warm relationship between Palin and Stein before the race.

"I called Sarah's campaign for mayor the end of the age of innocence in Wasilla," said Carney.

Even though Palin knew that Stein is a Protestant Christian, from a Pennsylvania Dutch background, her campaign began circulating the word that she would be "Wasilla's first Christian mayor." Some of Stein's supporters interpreted this as an attempt to portray Stein as Jewish in the heavily evangelical community. Stein himself, an eminently reasonable and reflective man, thinks "they were redefining Christianity to mean born-agains."

The Palin campaign also started another vicious whisper campaign, spreading the word that Stein and his wife -- who had chosen to keep her own last name when they were married -- were not legally wed. Again, Palin knew the truth, Stein said, but chose to muddy the waters. "We actually had to produce our marriage certificate," recalled Stein, whose wife died of breast cancer in 2005 without ever reconciling with Palin.

"I had a hand in creating Sarah, but in the end she blew me out of the water," Stein said, sounding more wearily ironic than bitter. "Sarah's on a mission, she's an opportunist."

According to some political observers in Alaska, this pattern -- exploiting "old-boy" mentors and then turning against them for her own advantage -- defines Sarah Palin's rise to power. Again and again, Palin has charmed powerful political patrons, and then rejected them when it suited her purposes. She has crafted a public image as a clean politics reformer, but in truth, she has only blown the whistle on political corruption when it was expedient for her to do so. Above all, Palin is a dynamo of ambition, shrewdly maneuvering her way through the notoriously compromised world of Alaska politics, making and breaking alliances along the way.

"When Palin takes credit for knocking off the old-boy network in Alaska, it drives me crazy," said Andrew Halcro, an Anchorage businessman and radio talk show host who ran against her in the 2006 GOP primary race for governor. "Sarah certainly availed herself of that network whenever it was expedient."

..." More here.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 05:06 PM

This thread is pretty long... don't know if this has already been posted. S.P. is the "anointed one".

There is an email chain letter to evangelicals making the internet rounds.
"Sarah is that standard God has raised up to stop the flood. She has the anointing ... Back in the 1980s, I sensed that Israel's little-known Benjamin Netanyahu was chosen by God for an important end-time role. I still believe that. I now have that same sense about Sarah Palin."
The report about it is here:
http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2008/09/18/palin_email/index.html

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 05:06 PM

Wednesday, Sept. 24, 2008 13:47 EDT
Quote of the day
Via Jonathan Martin, a snippet from the poll report following the meeting John McCain and Sarah Palin had with Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvilli and Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko:

McCain then looked around the room and gestured as if to welcome questions. The AP reporter shouted a question at Gov. Palin ("Governor, what have you learned from your meetings?") but McCain aide Brooke Buchanan intervened and shepherded everybody out of the room.

Palin looked surprised, leaned over to McCain and asked him a question, to which your pooler thinks he shook his head as if to say "No."


Update: My friend Steve Benen's comments on this were too good not to share. At his new(ish) home at Washington Monthly, he writes:

Look, "What have you learned from your meetings?" is an easy one. It's not a trick question, or a "gotcha" question, or even a question intended to do test Palin's limited understand of international affairs. She could have easily said something like, "I've been encouraged by how much support the United States continues to enjoy around the world." No muss, no fuss. It's not rocket science...." (Salon)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 09:31 PM

So you're left to wonder what she really learned from the meetings. Probably that her understanding of international affairs is actually broad and boundless.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 10:07 PM

.... and that all the old men want to hug her.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 10:32 PM

Yes, that too!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 12:08 AM

Palin being interviewed by Katie Couric...

http://vodpod.com/watch/1032138-palin-and-couric

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 07:26 AM

She came off brilliantly!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 07:56 AM

LOLOL

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 08:51 AM

She came off as a dummie.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 08:59 AM

Well, to a certain extent that's true Katie Couric could spend some time brushing up on her interviewing technigues..

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 09:18 AM

Rig, you must live in an alternate universe.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 09:23 AM

Couric: I'm just going to ask you one more time - not to belabor the point. Specific examples in his 26 years of pushing for more regulation.

Palin: I'll try to find ya some and I'll bring them to ya.

==

Palin showed herself to be a dummie.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 10:27 AM

Palin has a lot of homework to do. There is probably a big stack of books on her night stand. McCain's record for Dummies, The Economy for Dummies, National Security for Dummies....

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 10:34 AM

Last night I saw Palin in her church being excorcised from the possible curse of witchcraft by a preacher who actually has experience in persecuting witches in Africa.

You can't make this stuff up.

It was on MSNBC the Rachel Maddow show.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 09:45 PM

Yes, Donuel, I will agree, religion is an awful thing, but whatever she engaged in regarding witchcraft, is nothing when compared to Reverend Wright and that horrible Pfleger person.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 09:47 PM

I think they may ditch Sarah pretty soon and replace her. There will be some excuse like her family having a crisis.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 09:50 PM

If we can vote for pinch hitters, maybe the Democrats will get smart and replace Obama with Hillary.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 03:57 PM

Conservative columnist tells Palin: "Bow out"

"Sarah Palin has seen better days. In fact, her performance recently is so bad that it made one former supporter not just rethink that position, but take to the Web site of the conservative National Review to call on Palin to step down from the Republican ticket.

In a column published Friday, Kathleen Parker writes:

As we've seen and heard more from John McCain's running mate, it is increasingly clear that Palin is a problem. Quick study or not, she doesn't know enough about economics and foreign policy to make Americans comfortable with a President Palin should conditions warrant her promotion ...

Palin's recent interviews with Charles Gibson, Sean Hannity, and now Katie Couric have all revealed an attractive, earnest, confident candidate. Who Is Clearly Out Of Her League.

No one hates saying that more than I do. Like so many women, I've been pulling for Palin, wishing her the best, hoping she will perform brilliantly. I've also noticed that I watch her interviews with the held breath of an anxious parent, my finger poised over the mute button in case it gets too painful. Unfortunately, it often does. My cringe reflex is exhausted.

Palin filibusters. She repeats words, filling space with deadwood. Cut the verbiage and there's not much content there ... If BS were currency, Palin could bail out Wall Street herself.

If Palin were a man, we'd all be guffawing, just as we do every time Joe Biden tickles the back of his throat with his toes. But because she's a woman -- and the first ever on a Republican presidential ticket -- we are reluctant to say what is painfully true ...

McCain can't repudiate his choice for running mate. He not only risks the wrath of the GOP's unforgiving base, but he invites others to second-guess his executive decision-making ability ...

Only Palin can save McCain, her party, and the country she loves. She can bow out for personal reasons, perhaps because she wants to spend more time with her newborn. No one would criticize a mother who puts her family first.

Do it for your country." (Salon)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 04:00 PM

Give her a break already, She is clearly smarter than Bush and Bush is a high functioning moron.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 04:02 PM

God will answer her prayers and touch her with the gift of clarity, intelligence, omnicient oversight... Then she will withdrawl.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 11:34 PM

Sorry, people--some Mudcatters have been saying for a long time that McCain would ditch Palin, or she would withdraw. I said before that was wishful thinking. And it still is.

As I noted earlier, with Palin McCain has the best chance to accomplish both goals of any VP pick: 1) energize the base--especially important since McCain himself leaves the base rather tepid--and 2) appeal to at least some of the independents--since both McCain and Palin have gone against their own party at some points. With Palin, McCain may even get some Hillary voters--the ones who vote on number of x and y chromosomes--and have no clue--or don't care--about issues. And of course the ones--male and female--who only want their president to be a good drinking buddy.

But Palin is on the scene to stay. Any other idea is a pipe dream.

That doesn't mean she is not vulnerable. She sure is--especially on how her view of the "end times" influences her view of foreign policy--particularly how close she should be allowed to get to the nuclear button. Obama was grilled on Rev Wright. It's time for her to say how much she believes of what she heard in church.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 02:05 PM

Bob Herbert opines:

..."The country is understandably focused on the financial crisis. But there is another serious issue in front of us that is not getting nearly enough attention, and that's whether Sarah Palin is qualified to be vice president — or, if the situation were to arise, president of the United States.


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History has shown again and again that a vice president must be ready to assume command of the ship of state on a moment's notice. But Ms. Palin has given no indication yet that she is capable of handling the monumental responsibilities of the presidency if she were called upon to do so.

In fact, the opposite is the case. We know that there are some parts of Alaska from which, if the day is clear and your eyesight is good, you can actually see Russia. But the infantile repetition of this bit of trivia as some kind of foreign policy bona fide for a vice presidential candidate should give us pause.

The McCain campaign has done its bizarre best to shield Ms. Palin from any sustained media examination of her readiness for the highest offices in the land, and no wonder. She has been an embarrassment in interviews.

But the idea that the voters of the United States might install someone in the vice president's office who is too unprepared or too intellectually insecure to appear on, say, "Meet the Press" or "Face the Nation" is mind-boggling.

The alarm bells should be clanging and warning lights flashing. You wouldn't put an unqualified pilot in the cockpit of a jetliner. The potential for catastrophe is far, far greater with an unqualified president.

The United States has been lucky in terms of the qualifications of the vice presidents who have had to step in over the last several decades for presidents who either died or, in Richard Nixon's case, were forced to leave office. Harry Truman and Lyndon Johnson became extraordinary presidents in their own right. Gerald Ford successfully guided the nation through the immediate aftermath of one of the most traumatic political crises in its history.

For those who think Sarah Palin is in that league, there is no problem. But her unscripted public appearances would lead most honest observers to think otherwise. When asked again this week about her puerile linkage of foreign policy proficiency and Alaska's proximity to Russia, this time by Katie Couric of CBS News, here is what Ms. Palin said she meant:

"That Alaska has a very narrow maritime border between a foreign country, Russia, and on our other side, the land — boundary that we have with — Canada."

She went on, but lost her way midsentence: "It's funny that a comment like that was kind of made to — cari — I don't know, you know? Reporters ..."

Ms. Couric said, "Mocked?"

"Yeah, mocked," said Ms. Palin. "I guess that's the word. Yeah."

It is not just painful, but frightening to watch someone who could become the vice president of the United States stumbling around like this in an interview.

Ms. Couric asked Ms. Palin to explain how Alaska's proximity to Russia "enhances your foreign policy credentials."

"Well, it certainly does," Ms. Palin replied, "because our, our next-door neighbors are foreign countries, there in the state that I am the executive of. And there—"

Gently interrupting, Ms. Couric asked, "Have you ever been involved in any negotiations, for example, with the Russians?"

"We have trade missions back and forth," said Ms. Palin. "We do. It's very important when you consider even national security issues with Russia. As Putin rears his head and comes into the airspace of the United States of America, where do they go? It's Alaska. It's just right over the border. It is from Alaska that we send those out to make sure that an eye is being kept on this very powerful nation, Russia, because they are right there. They are right next to our state."

It was surreal, the kind of performance that would generate a hearty laugh if it were part of a Monty Python sketch. But this is real life, and the stakes couldn't be higher. As Ms. Palin was fumbling her way through the Couric interview, the largest bank failure in the history of the United States, the collapse of Washington Mutual, was occurring.

The press has an obligation to hammer away at Ms. Palin's qualifications. If it turns out that she has just had a few bad interviews because she was nervous or whatever, additional scrutiny will serve her well."

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 02:58 PM

"Harry Truman and Lyndon Johnson became extraordinary presidents in their own right."


                No they didn't. Lyndon Johnson was a disaster!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 03:26 PM

One man's meat is another man's poisson, I allus sez.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 06:37 PM

Yeah, well Lyndon Johnson poisoned everybody's meat!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 07:52 PM

Anyway, it is getting clearer and clearer that she is a train wreck.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 08:26 PM

You mean Michelle, I take it!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 09:10 PM

No, Rig, I do not. Michele Obama is an intelligent, highly competent and educated woman with a strong and well-informed interest in all aspects of our national life.

Sarah is a Roller Derby Queen.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 09:46 PM

The economic crisis and John McCain's surprising response have drawn attention away from the Republican vice presidential nominee just as she has started to answer more pointed questions from the media.

Her third nationally televised interview, with CBS anchor Katie Couric, found Palin rambling, marginally responsive and even more adrift than during her network debut with ABC's Charles Gibson.

In a 40-minute session with Couric that aired Wednesday and Thursday nights, the Alaska governor defended her puzzling claim that geographic proximity makes her some sort of expert on Russia; went nearly blank when queried about McCain's achievements as a big-business regulator; agreed America "may find itself" on the road to another Great Depression; and, promoting a troop surge in Afghanistan, casually suggested that it "will lead us to victory there, as it has proven to have done in Iraq."

(LAT)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 11:34 PM

"'In a 40-minute session with Couric that aired Wednesday and Thursday nights, the Alaska governor defended her puzzling claim that geographic proximity makes her some sort of expert on Russia; went nearly blank when queried about McCain's achievements as a big-business regulator; agreed America "may find itself" on the road to another Great Depression; and, promoting a troop surge in Afghanistan, casually suggested that it "will lead us to victory there, as it has proven to have done in Iraq.'"


                     All of which is true. The difference being that Couric--being the shrew that she has demonstrated herself to be used more "gotcha" questions that did Gibson.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 03:06 AM

Did you actually watch the interview? They were not hardball questions, and they were asked quite politely--even kindly. You can't rationalize this blithering by blaming it on the interviewer this time. And if she wants to be Veep, she surely ought to be able to handle Katy Couric with her kid gloves on.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 03:25 AM

It's definitely true that she couldn't answer the question about McCain's achievements as a big business regulator. Which, I think, says a lot about both of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 07:55 AM

"They were not hardball questions, and they were asked quite politely--even kindly."


                I wonder why she did so much better with Sean Hannity?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 09:29 AM

Palin Gets the Full Philly Treatment: "Hey Hockey Mom -- Keep the Puck out of PA"

September 27, 2008 1:15 PM

Someone had the bright idea of sending Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin to the Irish Pub on Walnut Street in downtown Philly before the debate yesterday.

More than 400 McCain-Palin supporters were in the bar waiting for her; more than 300 McCain-Palin opponents were outside the bar, heckling her on as Philadelphians know how to do.

Sporting a red Phillies jacket, over a white t-shirt that read "Sarahcuda," Palin entered the bar to the protestors chanting "Obama! Obama!"

Some set off flares.

They held up signs: "McSame/Failin';" "Hey Hockey Mom -- keep the puck out of PA;" "Just like Bush in lipstick."


full article: http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/09/palin-gets-the.html


click

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 09:44 AM

Wonderful!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 09:57 AM

Last night SNL skit, Tina Fey returns... Palin interviewed by Couric.

http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/couric-palin-open/704042/

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 11:49 AM

They're going to generate so much sympathy for Sarah Palin, Obama won't stand a chance.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 11:54 AM

They've generated so much awareness of her ignorance, she doesn't stand a chance.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 01:13 PM

You're assuming the electorate will come to that conclusion? The ones who are clinging to their guns and religion in Pennsylvania and Ohio?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 01:23 PM

Kathleen Parker explains why Palin should go home and spend more time with her family.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 01:36 PM

As a woman, I sincerely can say Palin is an embarrassment to all women.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 01:38 PM

Well, I don't think, generally speaking, that her doltishness is attributed to her woman-ness, Alice. At least I don't think of it that way. A dolt is a dolt even without lipstick.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 01:41 PM

Amos, some repubs are claiming women will vote for her just because she is a woman. Some may, but in general, that idea is ridiculous.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 03:36 PM

I would be embarrassed to ever admit it if I voted on that basis primarily.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 04:07 PM

It is not all her fault. She has obviously been humored and given the benifit of doubt her entire adult life. She has now entered an arena in which there is no room for doubt or coddling.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 07:50 PM

"As a woman, I sincerely can say Palin is an embarrassment to all women."

             As an American I can sincerely say that Palin is a paragon of American citizenry.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 08:00 PM

She was a cheerleader in high school somewaht like George Bush.

Many people stil do not know of W's football cheerleading skills.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 08:40 PM

"I wonder why she did so much better with Sean Hannity?" Rig

Who bothered to watch? Did you?

Actually I saw part of it (on the computer) but other than my impression of Hannity-sleaze, I honestly don't remember one quesiton. Or one answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 08:52 PM

"paragon" in same sentence with Palin? gag, guffaw

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 09:13 PM

So Rig has now revealed his philosophical belief that lying, self-serving maneuvers in office, and aggressive know-nothingness, and meandering into extreme religions with bigoted belief systems is the ultimate model of an AMerican citizen.


Sigh.

Where is Spinoza when we need him?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 09:15 PM

Someday I must meet Riginslinger. I have almosr no doubt but that he has two heads; he definitely has two faces. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 09:40 PM

"Where is Spinoza when we need him?"


                      Spin who?


   "I have almosr no doubt but that he has two heads;..."


                   Two heads are better than one, what?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 01:05 AM

Sarah and the Rape Kit Billing Scheme

Even in tough budget times, there are lines that cannot be crossed. So I was startled by this tidbit reported recently by The Associated Press: When Sarah Palin was mayor of Wasilla, Alaska, the small town began billing sexual-assault victims for the cost of rape kits and forensic exams.


Ms. Palin owes voters an explanation. ...

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 01:14 AM

Well, they needed to free up some funds for Sarah's sports complex.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 08:15 AM

The report that Palin's town charged for rape exams is true enough, in that that Wasilla was one of several small Alaskan police forces with limited budgets that found it difficult to deal with the cost of forensic medical examinations. Wasilla had a policy of allowing the City to bill victims (or more likely, their insurers) for rape kits, which can cost up ot $1,000.

The policies allowing billing the victims in ALL these small towns was finally outlawed by the state in 2000.

Palin was mayor of Wasilla from 1996 until the time the state law (AS 18.68.040) banned the practice of charging victims August 12, 2000.

A subsequent enquiry detirmined....

'The Finance Department searched all financial records on our system for fiscal year 2000, 2001 and 2002. There are no records of billings to or collections from rape victims or their insurance companies in our system. The financial computer system goes back to the beginning of fiscal year 2000, and accounts receivable backup documentation goes back six (6) years per our records retention schedule.

A review of files and case reports within the Wasilla Police Department has found no record of sexual assault victims being billed for forensic exams. State law AS 18.68.040, which was effective August 12, 2000, would have prohibited any such billings after that date.'

Police Chief Long has stated that from 1996 to 2000
"A review of files and case reports within the Wasilla Police Department has found no record of sexual assault victims being billed for forensic exams"

So where did this 'story' come from?

'The entire "scandal" seems to have been manufactured around September 9, possibly from a small obscure blog called Stop All Monsters

The blog, features a tagline of "A blog dedicated to rooting out and stopping all monsters. Sarah Palin, for instance," has only been in existence since July, and is written by a character who claims to be a writer/stand-up comedian based in Los Angeles.

The fact that it has been disemminated so rapidly and throughly even making the mainstream media is more worrying.

The fact that people desperately have a need to believe it and urge others to do so is more worrying still.

I dislike Sarah Palin's opinions but please attack the truth of these and NOT the 'monster' created by disguised elements of the 'opposition'

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 08:32 AM

The false attacks by MoveOn.org and others give her traction. When something like this is exposed, the right-wing-religious-wackos go into high gear. In the end, it will probably be MoveOn that gets her elected.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 08:41 AM

As I have stated, I am showing these threads to my undecided friends.

A good rant by Amos or Bobert usually gets them seriously thinking about voting for McCain/Palin, in reaction to the bile.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 09:13 AM

btw if you want an example of the views expressed on Stop All Monsters (described by one of his supporters Easyfiend as
"basically a prolonged, hate-filled, liberal rant, but done in a loving way".

here is a blog from July

Posted by DA at 12:59 AM 0 comments
7/30/2008

Russian Judge Figures Out Sexual Harrassment

Finally, a voice of reason in the sexual harrassment debate. A 22-year-old woman in St. Petersberg, Russia, brought a case against her employer because she was locked out of the office after she refused to have sex with him. Thankfully, the judge was a genius.

The judge said he threw out the case not through lack of evidence but because the employer had acted gallantly rather than criminally.

"If we had no sexual harassment we would have no children," the judge ruled.

Bam. Case closed. I don't want to hear another word about this nonsense, ladies. Now, let's get back to "work."

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 09:36 AM

My apologies for not factchecking the rape-kits story myself.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 10:13 AM

Gee, Bruce, do you show them your buile too? Or Rig's irrational snideries?

Or do you stick to the usual bias?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 10:14 AM

I show them the entire thread(s), and let them read them.


They have noted that the NYT figures prominantly in telling you what to think.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 10:39 AM

They might note that in that regard, while I often cite the particularly articulate and reasoned views expressed in the Times, I often include other sources. My bias is not toward any one outlet, but toward reasonable assessments of the futures involved in present decisions. If the Bushites of 2000 and 2004 had adhered to such a standard, instead of looking for the best cheerleader or the most electrifying hate-monger to follow in their herd, the nation would have been far better off today.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 10:44 AM

"If the Bushites of 2000 and 2004 had adhered to such a standard, instead of looking for the best cheerleader or the most electrifying hate-monger to follow in their herd, the nation would have been far better off today."

From your constant harping, I will take the above to mean that, had they done as you are doing, they would have lost in those elections (since IYO the nation would ONLY be better off if they were NOT elected.). I don't think that was what you meant to say, but it is what is being stated by you.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 10:47 AM

VP is only a part time job. If she becomes President, W has proved the Pesidency is also a part time job with about two years worth of vactaion over 8 years.

Think of it, 8 years out of your life, 20 years out of your income and 50 years of fouling the reputation of the USA. And Eternity for all those who died from his lies and declarations.

Still he was the greatest thing since cold Champagne for all the super wealthy who had and will continue to have a free unregulated ride.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 10:52 AM

Your statement is quite hard to understand, BB. I said --in response to your accusation of being over-influenced by the NYT--that a standard of reasonable logic and an eye to consequences of actions taken is a workable starting point, and I further state that the elections of 2000 and 2004 were taken by force and deception instead. In many cases: the invasion unilaterally of Iraq, the suppression of dissent, the suppression of press communication, the effort to politically manipulate science, the mismanagement and favoritism that left the national emergency response machinery inept and impotent, the politicization of justice, the falsification of press commmunications by buying reports, the corrosion of COnstitutional principles, the violation of moral principles in dealing with combatants, the mismanagement ofm ilitary logistics, tactics and strategy, and the aggressive pursuit of ignorance in matters of international dynamics -- in all these things, Bush's administrators made the nation worse by selecting the wrong importances, choosing the wrong targets, and failing to understand the consequences of their own actions.

I am just trying to correct your implication, attributed to your invisible friends, that there is some irrational drive behind what I do here. I find it snarky and bilious despite your own pretense that it is just "sharing with friends".

SOmetimes, though, I wonder why I bother.

A


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 10:58 AM

"I am just trying to correct your implication, attributed to your invisible friends, that there is some irrational drive behind what I do here. I find it snarky and bilious despite your own pretense "

Amos,

It is not an irrational drive, it is a blatent partisan viewpoint that they have observed. They understand whay you act this way, and finf your behaviour similar to that of the far Right. But they have decided that the comments you make, with your protestations that you do NOT represent the extreme Left indicate that the support for Obama seems ( to them) to be more extreme then they care to vote with.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 11:18 AM

Partisan? Hey, I am partisan in this election pal, because the "partisan" shards of a ruined nation keep drifting down around my ears. My "partisan" bias is toward trying to resurrect the survival of the country when it is being shaken to death by the greedy little terriers of the ideologues in the present Administration. My "partisan" bias is trying to change unwanted conditions to bring about a better future. If the Democratic party, the Indpeendent Party or even the Republican party get behind that principle, they win my approval. In the present contest, the Republicans have not done so.    You want "partisan" bias, try viewing a rerun of "Sarah Does the RNC". Drill baby, drill!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 11:24 AM

Fine, Amos.

You are partisan.

I am partisan.


My friends note that your behaviour does not lead them to wish to support your candidate. Not my decision- they consider McCain to be a bad choice, but better than the only realistic alternative that they have seen, given the comments by both sides supporters.


They are still moderates: They have NOT committed to any side yet. (One would vote Nader, the other Barr, if they didn't think that their votes might make a difference)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 12:40 PM

useful checklist

a quick 'reality check' could save considerable space in this, and other, threads

rumour no 72 - the Chief of Police in Wasilla (not Palin) did apparently have a policy of asking a victim's health insurance to pay for the rape kit as part of the ER visit.
This, it turns out, is policy in a number of states, including Missouri and North Carolina.
Second, the way this became an issue was after the then-governor of Alaska signed a bill forbidding it; this law was signed before Palin was Governor and no one tried to reverse it while she was Governor. Third, what the CoP in Wasilla wanted to do was charge the perpetrator as part of restitution.

so far the list reaches 84!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 12:53 PM

The non-partisan site that covers rumors on all sides of the political campaign is below. I've posted this link previously on mudcat (can't remember which one of the threads it is in).

http://factcheck.org/

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 12:54 PM

I suggest your friends examine the porposals and policy propositions of the two and vote according to the best understanding of those issues they can reach, on the basis of which policies will do the most to ameliorate domesting and international conditions of the nation.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 01:09 PM

Sorry: "proposals" and "domestic"...

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 01:52 PM

Add Mitt Romney's voice to those expressing at least a modicum of dissatisfaction about the rollout of Gov. Sarah Palin in her first month as the Republican vice-presidential nominee. He expressed confidence that Ms. Palin would be able to "hold her own" in the debate this Thursday night against the Democratic vice-presidential nominee, Senator Joseph R. Biden Jr.

But on MSNBC's "Morning Joe," Mr. Romney — while not criticizing her TV interviews as others have for their substance or lack thereof — seemed to blame some of her stumbles on the McCain campaign staff. Asked by Andrea Mitchell whether he agreed with some conservatives' calls for Ms. Palin to drop off the ticket, Mr. Romney said he concurred with conservative writer Kathryn Jean Lopez of the National Review:

"I think Kathryn Lopez had it right," he said. "Holding Sarah Palin to just three interviews and microscopically focusing on each interview I think has been a mistake. I think they'd be a lot wiser to let Sarah Palin be Sarah Palin. Let her talk to the media, let her talk to people.
"Look, she wasn't selected by John McCain because she's an expert in foreign policy," he added. "John McCain's the expert in foreign policy … She's a person who identifies with people with homes across America."

Still, the bad reviews, the parodies on shows like "Saturday Night Live" and commentary about Ms. Palin's readiness to be vice president, let alone president, kept pouring in over the weekend. At Newsweek, Fareed Zakaria's headline was "Palin is Ready? Please."


He wrote: "Palin has been given a set of talking points by campaign advisers, simple ideological mantras that she repeats and repeats as long as she can. ("We mustn't blink.") But if forced off those rehearsed lines, what she has to say is often, quite frankly, gibberish."

And, as Ms. Mitchell noted this morning, The Times's David Brooks called her candidacy "embarrassing."

Ouch.

Senator McCain himself confronted a Palin moment — pretty much akin to one of those Biden moments Mr. Obama has had to deal with — when the Republican nominee was interviewed on ABC's "This Week" with George Stephanoupolos. Mr. McCain walked back what Ms. Palin — in a rare impromptu moment in Philadelphia — said about going into Pakistan, along the same veins that Mr. McCain had just chastised Mr. Obama about in their Friday night debate:

Mr. Stephanopoulos: She says, "If that's what we have to do stop the terrorists from coming any further in, absolutely, we should."

Mr. McCain: She would not — she shares my view that we will do whatever is necessary. The problem is, you don't announce it. You don't — you don't say to the Pakistanis, "We're coming in unilaterally and carry out operations." Teddy Roosevelt, speak softly but carry a big stick. She shares my view on that. That's just — that's fundamentals of knowledge and maturity and judgment.
…
Mr. Stephanopoulos: So she shouldn't have done it?
…
Mr. McCain: This business of, in all due respect, people going around and — with sticking a microphone while conversations are being held, and then all of a sudden that's — that's a person's position, this is a free country, but I don't think most Americans think that that's a definitive policy statement made by Governor Palin. And I would hope you wouldn't, either.

Well, granted, the senator is far more accustomed to having a microphone in his face; in fact, he's often taken advantage of its availability, although not recently.

Yet others have the sense that he would be better-served to tutor her in his facility with the media glare. They tend to believe that the McCain-Palin ticket would benefit from giving Ms. Palin almost a karaoke microphone, and that it's been a mistake — as Mr. Romney suggested today — to keep her so bottled up that she can't become more accustomed to the old-style, free-wheeling straight-talk. So what if she's not a foreign policy wonk?, some ask.

In a column in The Times today, William Kristol talked about Mr. McCain's own concerns about Governor Palin's recent missteps, or perceived problems:

With respect to his campaign, McCain needs to liberate his running mate from the former Bush aides brought in to handle her — aides who seem to have succeeded in importing to the Palin campaign the trademark defensive crouch of the Bush White House. McCain picked Sarah Palin in part because she's a talented politician and communicator. He needs to free her to use her political talents and to communicate in her own voice.

I'm told McCain recently expressed unhappiness with his staff's handling of Palin. On Sunday he dispatched his top aides Steve Schmidt and Rick Davis to join Palin in Philadelphia. They're supposed to liberate Palin to go on the offensive as a combative conservative in the vice-presidential debate on Thursday.

From Palin's Perils


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 02:50 PM

Maybe the reason there's no record of rape victims being billed is because rape victims were discouraged from reporting their having been raped because they would have to pay for their own investigation. And it's important to keep in mind that there is almost fifty million people in the US who have no health insurance of any kind.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 02:52 PM

If rapists were smart, they'd sneak around and figure out which people didn't have health insurance before deciding on a victim.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 03:03 PM

This article has a quote from the Police Chief that Palin hired admitting that he and his department billed rape victims. The Police Cheif whom Palin fired before him says that during his tenure, the city paid for the kits...

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/21/palin.rape.exams/index.html

I would imagine that the prospect of having to go through a lot of red tape to get their insurance companies to pay for the kits would also deter a lot of women from reporting their having been raped.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 03:04 PM

'From the beginning of 1996 until the end of 2000, there were 49 reported sexual assaults in Wasilla, which "includes all associated sex crimes."'

There are no figures given on how many of these 'assaults' were, in fact, defined as rape.

However the current Wasilla Police Chief Angela Long has publicly stated

"A review of files and case reports within the Wasilla Police Department has found no record of sexual assault victims being billed for forensic exams"

Having seen the attitudes to sexual harrassment of women by the self styled 'comedian' who started this rumour I think I prefer to believe the Police Chief Angela Long!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 03:06 PM

From the link in my last post...

"In the past, we've charged the cost of the exams to the victim's insurance company when possible," Fannon was quoted as saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 03:25 PM

However, I think that the question of whether or not any women were billed for their rape kits during Palin's time as mayor is irrelevant. The important thing is that the policy of billing the victim for her investigation would have a chilling effect on women being willing to report their having been raped in a town in the state that has the highest number of rape incidents per capita of any state in the US, and that the town of Wasilla during Palin's term as mayor was extremely reluctant to adopt the law requiring towns to pay for rape kits.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 10:24 AM

No there's this:


(US News) The quote of the day comes from Rep. Alcee Hastings, a Florida Democrat who, according to Fox News, told a Jewish audience to beware of Gov. Sarah Palin (Sen. John McCain's vice presidential running mate) because " 'anybody toting guns and stripping moose don't care too much about what they do with Jews and blacks....

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 11:13 AM

"Ms. Palin's handpicked police chief, Charlie Fannon, acknowledged the practice of billing to collect evidence for sexual-assault cases."

I've been following the issue of the rape kits on an Alaska discussion forum.

When Palin was mayor, her police chief made this a high profile issue that was covered in the local Wasilla paper. She had to have known about the charges because she also signed for them.

Part of the problem for Palin would be if emergency contraception was offered a the same time as rape evidence was collected (which sometimes happens). She is against such contraception. Another point is that the local police STARTED charging during Palin's time as mayor. It was not something that had been ongoing from the past.

"The local hospital did the billing, but it was the town that set the policy, Mr. Croft noted. That policy was reflected in budget documents that Ms. Palin signed."

"In the absence of answers, speculation is bubbling in the blogosphere that Wasilla's policy of billing rape victims may have something to do with Ms. Palin's extreme opposition to abortion, even in cases of rape. Sexual-assault victims are typically offered an emergency contraception pill, which some people in the anti-choice camp wrongly equate with abortion."

full article here:
New York Times Sept 25

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 11:31 AM

The new Bill that came into effect in Alsaka in 2000 made law enforcement agencies that are investigating a sexual assault responsible for the costs of testing victims for sexually transmitted diseases and emergency contraception.

Fannon, the police chief at the time, estimated that the new law would 'cost the Wasilla Police Department approximately $5,000 to $14,000 a year to collect evidence for (all) sexual assault cases.'

Consequently he was quoted as saying, in his opinion,

'Ultimately it is the criminal who should bear the burden of the added costs'
'The forensic exam is just one part of the equation. Id like to see the courts make these people pay restitution for these things.'

However, there is officially NO evidence that following the introduction of the 2000 legislation any rape victim was billed and no one (despite what would probably be considerable inducements) has come forward to corroberate that any victim was actually charged at any time during Palin's tenure as mayor as the records indicate.

To claim otherwise is hardly 'irrelevant'.


Maybe it's also worth noting this article.....

'Rape victims across the state are paying for their ill fortune in the most tangible of ways: a bill for the evidence kit needed to lock up the rapist. The vast majority of the 3,000 or so emergency room patients examined for sexual assaults each year shoulder some of the cost of a rape kit test, according to state records and victim advocates. For some, it's as little as a $50 insurance co-payment. For those without insurance, it's hundreds of dollars left when a state program designed to help reaches its limit.'

The news from Anchorage?

NO this is from The North Carolina News Observer, February 13, 2008
and.....

'It's been a problem for a long time," says Ilse Knecht, deputy director of public policy at the National Center for Victims of Crime. "We've heard so many stories of victims paying for their exams, or not being able to and then creditors coming after them."

Knecht says she's recently heard from caseworkers in Illinois, Georgia, and Arkansas reporting that rape victims continue to be charged for their forensic exams.'

on Health and Money US News February 21, 2008

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 12:09 PM

Is there some rule that says if it's printed in the New York Times (and posted here not once but twice in 24 hours!) it must be true? - even when it is a report based on the 'prolonged, hate-filled, liberal rant' of a small obscure misogynistic blog dedicated to stopping 'monsters' like Sarah Palin'


However in the REAL WORLD away from these viral smears.....

Carol is correct in stressing the astonishing statistic that Alaska has 2.2 times the national average of forcible rape cases

An AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL report as recently as 2007 reported that one in three Alaska Native and American Indian women will be raped during their lifetime.

The study cites "shockingly high" Justice Department statistics that Native women throughout the whole of the United States are 2.5 times more likely to be raped than other U.S. women,

They found that Federal authorities have created a "maze of tribal, state and federal jurisdictions" that slows response times and limits who can respond'
Sexual assaults and rapes on reservations sometimes get lost in "jurisdictional vacuums," allowing some perpetrators to "rape with impunity."

In Alaskan villages, plus dozens of others with unarmed local officers and limited authority, sexual assaults can't be investigated until troopers arrive from larger communities.
That can take hours, sometimes days in stormy or foggy weather, allowing crucial evidence to disappear.

Walt Monegan, public safety commissioner, acknowledged there's not enough law enforcement in Alaska.
He's drafting plans to create a system that will encourage villagers to become local officers and, eventually, state troopers.

Spokeswoman Sharon Leighow said that Governor Palin "has heard the message from the rural communities that they need more law enforcement" and is working with Monegan to increase law enforcement there

However the problem is not limited to remote villages.

For example, Alaska Native people in Anchorage were 9.7 times more likely to be sexually assaulted than others living in the city between 2000 and 2003, according to one study cited in the report.

The report also suggested that Congress fully fund and implement the Violence Against Women Act of 2005. Co-sponsored by Sen. Lisa Murkowski, R-Alaska, it reauthorized an old law, but included a new provision to put more money toward violence against Indian and Native women.

It will pay for a broader study of violence against Natives and American Indian women, Murkowski said. That could provide better statistics, giving decision makers a greater case to argue for increased funding.

I know.... thread drift    but.......

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 12:32 PM

"It will pay for a broader study of violence against Natives and American Indian women, Murkowski said. That could provide better statistics, giving decision makers a greater case to argue for increased funding.

I know.... thread drift    but......."



               Not really. Not if this is where the excess numbers are coming from.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 12:33 PM

The Onion (parody site) offers this rather harsh piece called "Palin's Rebuttal":

"Shhhh!

Could you please stop tearing apart my record so loudly? I just put my special needs child down for a nap. You remember my poor, Down syndrome baby, don't you? The developmentally disabled child I carried to term despite knowing that he had special needs? The child who would be helpless without my constant care and attention? Well, he's just nodded off, and if you continue to provide such damning evidence of my inexperience in both foreign and domestic policy, you'll wake him.

You wouldn't want him to start crying, would you?

It's very rude of you to keep pointing out the myriad reasons I am unfit to be the governor of Alaska, much less vice president of the United States of America, when you know my Down syndrome–afflicted son is trying to get some much-needed rest. If you wanted to question my qualifications as a leader, you should have thought of that sooner, like, say, before I gave birth to a retarded child who would probably starve to death if I weren't so selflessly and courageously dedicated to him.

Actually, he'll probably be sleeping for a while, so maybe it would be best if you came back later. Perhaps this afternoon, or in a couple of months. It's just that he gets so tired having to struggle with even the simplest tasks that you and I take for granted. Because my special needs son has Down syndrome, you see. My child has Down syndrome. And, as the mother of a baby with Down syndrome, I would appreciate it if you stopped bringing up my nonexistent energy plan while he sleeps there, like an angel.

My beautiful, special needs angel.

I assure you, I have every intention of responding to your claims. Sarah Palin does not run from a challenge. Like the challenge of raising a child with Down syndrome. That's what I've been doing for five months now, and let me tell you, it is hard work. But I wouldn't trade a moment of it for anything in the world, not even for more time to respond to the gaping holes you've just punched in my candidacy. Did I mention he has Down syndrome?

Now, if you'll please back away quietly without saying anything else—especially about my recent comments regarding Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and how they illustrate my complete lack of even a basic understanding of our economy—I'll forget this whole thing ever happened.

And so will my vote-stealing retard baby"...


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 12:43 PM

No, Em, not all of that NYTimes opinion piece was true - it does show that the rumor still lives in spite of Palin stating in writing that she does not agree with charging victims for rape kits.

The false tangents of this story are still spinning because people DO fear that abortion will become illegal under McCain/Palin.

Palin is part of a religious movement that believes emergency contraception is abortion. There are people in this country who are willing to kill and have killed doctors who provide abortions. The emotions around this issue on both sides are high. The rumors about the rape kit story (and connecting it to the issue of emergency contraception after a rape) are a red flag and will probably keep spinning, just as the false rumors about the other presidential ticket keep spinning.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 12:44 PM

rather harsh? - it's sick!

....but then I suppose as someone who has worked with parents and developmentally handicapped children throughout moments of personal despair and small triumphs, I have no 'sense of humour'!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 12:53 PM

Alice virtually NONE of that NYT story is true as any quick check could confirm.

There was never any evidence that victims were being charged by any police departments including Wasilla's Police Department under Palin.
Testimony instead indicates it was hospitals that attempted to bill victims on rare occasions of insensitivity.

In addition protective mechanisms were in place in Alaska that would have picked up the cost of such kits, even if State law had not changed in 2000.

The State of Alaska Violent Crimes Compensation Board (VCCB) was "was established in 1971 by the Alaskan Legislature to help bring financial relief to innocent victims of violent crimes in Alaska."

Among the things the VCCB would pay for are the medical bills of victims of violent crimes (including sexual assaults), counseling, and transportation to medical and counseling services.

A former worker with VCCB notes

'Rape kits and other medical expenses of this type would be paid by the VCCB, 100% guaranteed. The City of Wasilla could have technically 'charged' the victim but even if they did, the VCCB would have paid the bill in full. I still know the a few of the Board members and the supervisor and I can tell you that they are very liberal with the way that they pay the victims bills.'

The 'rumour still lives' because people whose main concern is to portray Palin as some kind of human demon, far from refuting her actual views, are detirmined to use any kind of despicable lies and sick 'humour' for character assasination.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 12:53 PM

I sympathize, Emma; it would have been better not to post it, I suppose.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 01:04 PM

'it would have been better not to post it, I suppose.'

But you did!

However respect for the truth and/or decency seem to be in very short supply on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 02:21 PM

Amos rarely lets truth or decency get in the way of a dig at those he dislikes- but he stands fully behind all requirements for everyone else to maintain both when discussing those he supports.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 02:49 PM

The hospital does the exam and passes the charge on normally to the law enforcement department, which, in Wasilla, decided to make it a POLICY to pass the charge on to the victim or their insurance to pay. Whether anyone was raped during that time is actually not the point. The point is, Police Chief Fannon defended his policy. Even though he expressed an intent to charge the rapist later, that was not the policy.


As I said, Palin has said in writing she does not believe in charging victims for rape kits.

Here is the article from the local Wasilla paper when governor Knowles signed the sexual assault bill and the chief Fannon expressed his disagreement with the bill.

http://www.frontiersman.com/articles/2000/05/23/news.txt

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 04:03 PM

This election campaign is charged with high emotion from all sides of the spectrum. There are lies being spread about all the candidates. It seems like it is worse this election than it has ever been. The internet can be a great source for checking facts, but also a major tool for spreading lies. I'll be glad when this is all over.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 04:03 PM

Ebbie:

Yes, I did. It should have been obvious from my expression of regret that I am fully aware that I did, so why you felt it necessary to point it out redundantly escapes me.

Bruce: you are confusing "liking" with trust. I like the lady just fine. I wouldn't trust her to manage a bank account, though.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 04:08 PM

Looks like we're arguing semantics here. So I will rephrase...

The police department, under Sarah Palin, refused to pay for the rape kits upon which the investigation of rapes is dependent, which forced the victims of rape to have to pay for the kits themselves if they wanted the rapes to be investigated.


Gee... doesn't really look any better when phrased that way than when phrased the other way.

And just because it's done in North Carolina, doesn't make it right when done in Alaska. I wouldn't vote for the lawmakers in my state who support forcing rape victims to pay for their own investigations either.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 04:21 PM

AN analysis of why Sarah Palin might be being badly underestimated as a debate opponent based on her history in Alaska.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 04:30 PM

A statement by Palin backfires:

Palin's Joke About Biden Backfires
On the campaign trail, Gov. Sarah Palin jokes about listening to Sen. Joe Biden's speeches since she was in second grade. In a just-released CBS News segment, Katie Couric asks if that isn't an odd thing to say given her own running mate's age.

Said Palin: "Oh no, it's nothing negative at all. He's got a lot of experience and just stating the fact there, that we've been hearing his speeches for all these years. So he's got a tremendous amount of experience and, you know, I'm the new energy, the new face, the new ideas and he's got the experience based on many many years in the Senate and voters are gonna have a choice there of what it is that they want in these next four years."

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Sorcha
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 05:10 PM

May I request that Amos' post of 30 Sep 08 - 12:33 PM be removed? That is just SICK. 'retard baby' indeed.

Amos, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 06:51 PM

Sarah Palin on Sarah Palin

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 07:02 PM

The children should be off limits. I agree that r****d baby comment should be deleted.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 07:30 PM

Well, enough about retard babies, folks...

I just heard Saraqh Palin on CBS being interviewed by Katie Couric who was trying to pin Ms. Sarah down on contracetion and abortion and Ms. Sarah refused to state that abortion should be illegal... Instead, Ms. Sarah said that her "personal choice" would be against the morning after pill...

Seems strange to hear the word "choice" in her answers about abortion and even though I don't think the lady has the qualifications to be president, I am encouraged that she, at least for now, seems not to be a rabid anti-abortionist...

Plus, as I have stated, she is a looker...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 07:39 PM

Ye gods! Amos is perhaps the most "truthful and decent" person I have met. Whassa matta you guys? So maybe he should not have posted that tasteless Onion piece- I haven't noticed you pulling your punches, bb.

As for your aside to me, Amos, by this time I've forgotten what I wrote. I think it had to do with you and another person I addressed- be assured, sir, that I included you in order to ameliorate the sting on the other person. verstehen sie?. In actuality, I am no longer sure what I said and I can't find it.


Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce - PM
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 02:21 PM

Amos rarely lets truth or decency get in the way of a dig at those he dislikes- but he stands fully behind all requirements for everyone else to maintain both when discussing those he supports.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B - PM
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 01:04 PM

'it would have been better not to post it, I suppose.'

But you did!

However respect for the truth and/or decency seem to be in very short supply on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 09:26 PM

Hey, I've said all I yam gonna say about it. It was slightly offensive, but for crissakes it was from the Onion and there's a lot about the topic of McCain / Palin which is a LOT more offensive than the line in my post.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 09:32 PM

"Palin's Joke About Biden Backfires... On the campaign trail, Gov. Sarah Palin jokes about listening to Sen. Joe Biden's speeches since she was in second grade."


                Not necessarily. Like a lot of the things Sarah Palin says, it goes over the heads of readers of the Daily.Kos the first time. Then they come to their senses later and realize that they didn't have the intellect to listen to political speeches in the second grade. In the end, they'll change their vote.
                It takes a while for some people.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 09:34 PM

Mwahahahaha. That's a fancy piece of contortionism, there, Rig. KEep track of the neck angle--you may need the information to undo an insertion.

I am darn sure Ms Palin did not understand one paragraph of any Biden speech she may have heard in second grade.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 11:31 PM

Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin stood by her opposition to abortion even in cases of rape or incest and her skepticism that global warming is caused by human activity, but she stepped back from her past support for teaching creationism in the schools in last night's installment of her interviews with CBS's Katie Couric. Details in The Washington Post.

She was hard put to name one newspaper she has read.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 11:39 PM

Palin actually made Obama's case for him in the Kouric interview when she suggested that Biden is old and experienced and she is new and fresh, and the voters might take that into consideration when they make their choice. That's the case that is being made in support of Obama, and it's the thing McCain has most consistently used as a criticism of Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 12:03 AM

Humph. She hadn't even begun school yet when McCain started speechifying.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 02:33 AM

Biden's actually been in politics longer than McCain. But I don't think anyone could possibly make an argument that McCain is any less of a career politician, and any more of an outsider to Washington than Biden.

McCain's saying that experience is paramount. Well, if that's the case, Biden trumps McCain on experience. Palin is saying that being new and young is what counts. While Obama is about two and a half years older than Palin, McCain is about seven years older than Biden.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 08:36 AM

"I am darn sure Ms Palin did not understand one paragraph of any Biden speech she may have heard in second grade."



                     On the other hand, Biden didn't understand one paragraph of any Biden speech when Sarah was in the second grade either.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 09:46 AM

Yes she does believe in the Rapture.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 10:19 AM

From Mudflats in Alaska, McCain Campaign Re-writes Alaska History
re write of Alaska history
quote in part:

Here's what else I know about my state. We have the third worst children's health insurance program in the nation. The Governor wouldn't support cost-effective measures to extend insurance to the 10,000 children of Alaskan working parents who cannot afford coverage. She campaigned against a recent proposal to prevent large strip mines from spilling toxic chemicals into Alaska's salmon waters – something that's raised the ire of fishermen and Alaska Natives in remote Southwest Alaska communities. Thirty-five to forty percent of our kids don't graduate from high school, and we can't convince Governor Palin to join the 41 other states that have accepted the science showing statewide pre-k education helps kids succeed when they don't have other good options at home.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 10:26 AM

Rig:

Keep plugging, man. That one didn't fly, but someday....



A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 10:48 AM

Palin was raised as a Roman Catholic.

In 2002, the year she first ran for statewide office, unsuccessfully for lieutenant governor, she left her childhood church and joined the Wasilla Bible Church, a nondenominational evangelical church that "believe[s] in the Bible as the only inspired inerrant Word of God authoritative for faith and practice," according to its statement of faith.

In contrast to Assemblies of God, the Wasilla Bible Church's statement of faith contains NO reference to such Pentecostal requirements as speaking in tongues, divine healing or belief in the rapture.

Not all Pentecostals are conservative (Leah Daughtry, the chairwoman of the Democratic National Convention, is a Pentecostal minister)

According to a 2006 study by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life however they are more conservative than other Christians on social, moral and spiritual issues, and only more LIKELY to believe in the rapture and end-times.

None of this makes Palin 'a rapture ready extremist' as described by 'noted provocateur' Sam Harris in Newsweek and no doubt to be repeated ad nauseum elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 12:19 PM

what was left out of those statistics from The Center for Children and Families -

Compared to all of the United States, Alaska has a lower uninsured rate among children.
In the US, 11.6% of children lack health coverage; 19.3% of low-income children lack coverage.

The corresponding figures for Alaska are 9.4% and 13.5% of low income children who lack coverage

However it has a slightly higher figure for parents than the United States as a whole

Alaska ranks 26th among the 50 states and the District of Columbia in its Medicaid income eligibility threshold for parents.


In January 2007, Alaska expanded SCHIP-financed Medicaid coverage to children with family income from 154% to 175% of the 2007 federal poverty level (FPL). Governor Palin signed the legislation on July 9, 2007.
In doing so, it restored eligibility to the levels in place before a change eliminated the annual indexing of the eligibility level to inflation.

In February 2007, Governor Palin signed onto a letter written with Governor Blagojevich (D-IL) and eleven other Governors, calling on Congress to address the expected funding shortfall for the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP).

During the legislative session in 2008, legislation was introduced to expand coverage to 200% of the federal poverty level. The bill passed the Senate, but did not receive a vote in the House prior to the end of the session. The Governor's Health Strategies Council, consisting of members appointed by the Governor, also recommended an expansion to 200% of the federal poverty level.


The problem of educational under achievement in Alaska is a relection of 'The sheer magnitude of the geographic barriers to be overcome in delivering educational services in rural Alaska and Alaska villages'

The US Dept of Education acknowledges that 'Alaska Native children enter and exit school with serious educational handicaps.'

and
'The educational achievement of Alaska Native children is far below national norms. Native performance on standardized tests is low, Native student dropout rates are high, and Natives are significantly underrepresented among holders of baccalaureate degrees in the State of Alaska'

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 12:22 PM

She is more than likely to be guided by Rapture beliefs as sataed by Donuel 'noted provocateur'

It pays to be paid by mining and big oil.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 12:42 PM

NO candidate takes money from oil companies because corporate contributions are illegal!

But Obama, like Clinton and John McCain, has accepted donations from oil and gas company employees — $222,309 in Obama's case from donors from Exxon, Shell, Chevron and others, according to campaign-finance data.
Two oil company CEOs have pledged to raise at least $50,000 each as part of Obama's fundraising team.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 12:55 PM

I think the Big Oil reference is not to campaign contributions, but rather the courting of "Big Oil" to drill, drill, drill in Alaska. It is part of Alaska history that Americans are all familiar with. A google of "Alaska Palin Big Oil" will bring up lots of news accounts about her policy in governing Alaska.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 01:11 PM

Well, "Americans all" should be amended... lots of Americans are ignorant of the geography and news of the states. But, since the building of the trans-Alaska oil pipeline in the 1970s, the drilling controversies, the Exxon Valdez spill... Alaska and "Big Oil" are words well connected in our history.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 01:31 PM

"Just when you thought the whole "I can see Russia from Alaska" thing couldn't get any funnier...CNN's Gary Tuchman delivers the goods: it turns out that Sarah Palin has never seen Russia from Alaska.

Tuchman went up to the part of Alaska from which you can actually see Russia, a remote island called Little Diomede located just 2.4 miles from it's Russian twin, Big Diomede.

It turns out Gary Tuchman's trip to Little Diomede sets him apart from Sarah Palin -- because she's never actually been there, nor has she set eyes on its neighbor in Russia.

Here's the video of Tuchman's report:

Click.

Tuchman says that only 150 people live on Little Diomede, and that the town of Diomede has no streets and no cars. The poverty rate is over 40%, there is no television, and the only practical way to reach it is by helicopter. Anchorage (near Palin's hometown) is 550 miles away.

No Alaskan governor has ever visited Little Diomede, though indicted U.S. Senator Ted Stevens has made the trip. The town's residents barely knew who Palin was, and one of them didn't know she was the VP nominee.

It's going to be fun watching McCain-land spin this one, and it's going to be even more fun watching Tina Fey parody it.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 01:35 PM

"Sarah Palin said she does not support the morning after pill as a form of contraception, strongly implied that homosexuality was a choice, and could not name a single source of news that she turns to for information, in yet another installment of her interview series with Katie Couric.

Appearing on CBS Evening News, the Alaska Governor seemed calmer than she had been in previous sit downs. But while she only occasionally provided the type of befuddled responses that had even conservatives scratching their heads, her interview was nevertheless shaky.

Asked what newspapers and magazines she reads, Palin - a journalism major in college - could not name one publication.

"I've read most of them, again with a great appreciation for the press, for the media," she said at first. Couric responded, "What, specifically?"

"Um, all of them, any of them that have been in front of me all these years."

"Can you name a few?"

"I have a vast variety of source where we get our news," Palin said. "Alaska isn't a foreign country, where it's kind of suggested, 'wow, how could you keep in touch with what the rest of Washington, D.C., may be thinking when you live up there in Alaska?' Believe me, Alaska is like a microcosm of America."

"

(Huffington)

(What IS it about Sarah and specifics???? Does she think her face will break if she names a fact, a time and place, a particular?)


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 01:45 PM

To quote an ex pat American blogger who apparently understands a joke......

'Any intelligent person knows that Sarah Palin was joking when she said that she could Russia from her house.
It's pure hyperbole.
But everyone in the media keeps repeating it over and over, and I'm certain that some people probably actually believe it to be true.
I bet that even the people that understand the hyperbole probably don't realize just how much of an exaggeration it really is.'

It seems those folks over at The Huffington Post must be having a bad day for real news however as this 'shock, horror revelation' made their frontpage today.

'The town's residents barely knew who Palin was, and one of them didn't know she was the VP nominee.'

Nothing like throwing in a little amusement at the expemse of the ignorant 'yokels' to titilate the readers while you're at it!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 01:49 PM

No Emma she was not Joking. She tried to elaborate and explain it AND she brought Canada into it.

Have you seen the Couric interviews?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 02:02 PM

She is a literalist with a lilt of country in her words.

Nuance is lost on the woman.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 02:09 PM

Amos,


"CNN's Gary Tuchman delivers the goods: it turns out that Sarah Palin has never seen Russia from Alaska."


The real Palin quote is: "They're our next door neighbors and you can actually see Russia from land here in Alaska."

So who is the sleaze, stating that someone said something, then proved it false, WHEN THEY NEVER SAID IT TO BEGIN WITH?

Same as you have done with the Bush Impeachment thread- YOU claim Bush said something that he did not, then hold him to account for YOUR statement being false.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 02:16 PM

"Palin's foreign policy experience came up when she gave her first major interview, on Sept. 11 to ABC News. Asked what insight she had gained from living so close to Russia, she said: "They're our next-door neighbors and you can actually see Russia from land here in Alaska, from an island in Alaska."

The comment met with derision from Palin's critics and was turned into a punch line for a "Saturday Night Live" skit featuring actress Tina Fey. Appearing as Palin, she proclaimed, "I can see Russia from my house!""

So now, Amos will hold Palin to account for the statements made by Tina Fey in spoofing Palin. I will remember that this is permissable, and start to work on various proofs that Obama is whatever his critics have said about him, according to the standards as given by Amos.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 02:17 PM

Sarah Palin never said she could see Alaska from her house (that was a Tina Fey joke in the SNL skit).
Palin said Russia could be seen from a location in Alaska, which is true.
She was not joking - she was trying to claim international security experience because of Alaska's close proximity to Russia.
There are plenty of videos online of her statement in the Couric interview.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 02:18 PM

Well it's never really possible to explain a joke is it to someone who obviously doesn't 'get it'

However it's good to know that Gary Tuchman, in his umflinching journalistic search for the TRUTH, was prepared to take all the trouble and expense of visiting Little Diomede to find out what he could have discovered at the touch of a mouse courtesy of Erik

I have watched the interview with Couric and agree that mere proximity (I believe that was Palin's actual word) across a channel or shared border doesn't give one an insight into a foreign country.

There are some Brits, would you believe it, that claim to understand French politics or even what makes the Scots tick! :)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 02:20 PM

Don't bother- Amos has shown no interest in the truth when it comes to criticism of those he is opposed to.


But he sure is certain the rest of us should doublecheck everything we say that is critical of those he supports.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 02:22 PM

ooops - correction 'some English' :)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 02:22 PM

Here is the data of contributions from oil company employees (and in McCain's case, PAC, Political Action Committees, too) to the presidential campaigns.

http://prezoilmoney.oilchangeusa.org/index.php?type=search

Choose the candidate and then click on TABLE VIEW and then click on each company icon and you can see the contributor who donated and listed their employer as that company.

The RELATIONSHIP VIEW page that first comes up is very confusing. TABLE VIEW is easier to read and lists each person's name.

Total Obama as of creation of that table: Accepted $404,160 in oil contributions to election campaigns since 2000. $0 of those dollars were from industry PACS.

Total McCain as of creation of that table: Accepted $1,196,680 in oil contributions to election campaigns since 2000. $32,900 of those dollars were from industry PACS.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 02:30 PM

For Chrissakes...just take a few moments and listen (or read) what she has to say. The only justifucation for her being a VP candidate is the old Carswell theory.......even incompetents are entitle to representation.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 02:33 PM

No one is doubting that one can see some part of the Russian federation from some part of Alaska. One cannot see Russia from there. One can see a Siberian island. What people have trouble with is whether this counts a foreign policy experience. In fact if she could see Russia from he back yard then it would be better experience than theoretically being able to see some part of Siberia 550 miles from her back yard which she has never visited.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 02:34 PM

And protect us from witches, ya know?


And Bruce, I am fully aware that her statement "You can see Russia from land in ALaska" is perfectly truwe as long as you limit the statement to include islands. What has laid Ms Palin open to ridicule on this statement is not the detailed veracity of the literal statement but the fact that she brought it up to suppoert an argument that proximity is the same as understanding, which is a ludicrous claim, especially since the entire context of political discussions involving "Russia" does mean the foreshore on the Bering Strait, or some uninhabited island mid-strait, but the machinations of political intrigue occurring thousands of miles away in Moscow. The patent ridicuous disingenuous of her pert little assertion left her wide open to be a laughing stock because it was so laughable on the face of it.

Furthermore (and I don't know why I even need to explain this to someone of your usual intelligence) the post I relayed concerning putting her claim to restr by measuring the altitude her house would have to reach to be able to view Russian land is itself so silly as to simply add to the humour, and was clearly intended to compound the sarcasm, not be a rebuttal of her actual statement.

The ground truth is that you can see a Russian island from an ALaskan island in the middle of the Strait.

The TIna Fey parody and all the hoohawe surrounding it is irony, parody, horseplay and sarcasm. IF she had spoken sensibly she would have been much less vulnerable to such attempts.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 02:50 PM

"What has laid Ms Palin open to ridicule on this statement is not the detailed veracity of the literal statement but the fact that she brought it up to suppoert an argument that proximity is the same as understanding, "

THAT is not what you have been saying-

""Just when you thought the whole "I can see Russia from Alaska" thing couldn't get any funnier...CNN's Gary Tuchman delivers the goods: it turns out that Sarah Palin has never seen Russia from Alaska.

Tuchman went up to the part of Alaska from which you can actually see Russia, a remote island called Little Diomede located just 2.4 miles from it's Russian twin, Big Diomede.

It turns out Gary Tuchman's trip to Little Diomede sets him apart from Sarah Palin -- because she's never actually been there, nor has she set eyes on its neighbor in Russia.

...

It's going to be fun watching McCain-land spin this one, and it's going to be even more fun watching Tina Fey parody it. "

Feel free to criticize her experience- as I will Obama's- but your statements are that she should be criticized for saying something that Tuchman has proven wrong- EVEN IF SHE DID NOT SAY IT!


So, Obama can get the same treatment, and you have no reason to complain.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 04:14 PM

"IF she had spoken sensibly she would have been much less vulnerable to such attempts."


                  And the expectations would be much higher for her to perform well in the debate.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 04:57 PM

I would have never imagined that I would have to admit that Harriet Myers is more qualified to be VP or President than the actual Repuiblican 'selectee'.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 05:32 PM

A rose by any other name...picture

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 06:07 PM

Bruce:

The comparison between Ms Palin's experience and Obama's is an inept one. They just don't match up--Obama's demonstrated competency far exceeds Ms. Palin's even if she is the governess of a small State. I have nt accused Ms. Palin of saying something she didn't say--I merely forwarded for public amusement the latest fugue of fancy started by her own ridiculous claim.

Make no mountain out of a molehill.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 06:34 PM

answer John McCain
Palin shovel

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 06:35 PM

Amos governess is now on the sexist list, just like the word actress instead of actor

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 06:55 PM

"The comparison between Ms Palin's experience and Obama's is an inept one. They just don't match up--"


                   Sarah Palin was never a candidate for affirmative action!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 07:00 PM

Hey, Ms. Sarah ain't no lightweight... Misguided??? Yeah.. But she will give Biden all he wants with her little well honed folksie tricks...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 09:30 PM

"When Putin rears his little head I'll ask him if thats a ICBM in his pocket or is he just glad to see me, cuz there is only one thing he wants and thats the whole world. So whatchu gonna ask Putin Joe, well whatcha gonna say? cat gotyer tongue?"

I ahh ah I wouldn't have said what You just said

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 10:28 PM

Women are just as much candidates for affirmative action as are ethnic and racial minorities. And the way Palin acts, she seems to think she needs it.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: TIA
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 10:39 PM

Drop the BS literalist arguments.

No matter how it is phrased, is being able to "see Russia" qualification to be veep?

I have been to Moscow several times.
Will BB and Rig be willing to support me as Veep based on this alone?

Yes or No will do.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 11:01 PM

Were you working undercover for Isreali Intelligence?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 11:12 PM

Excerpted from
As Governor, Palin Was Quiet on Many Key Issues
By WILLIAM YARDLEY, New York Times
Published: October 1, 2008

TRADE Ms. Palin does not appear to have made any trade missions since taking office, and former state officials said the state's trade staff had been reduced under her watch.

Alaska has also sharply reduced its role in the Northern Forum, an association of state and regional governments from countries including Canada, Russia, Japan and China that works on common issues in northern regions like economic development, flooding and global warming.

Under Mr. Murkowski, Ms. Palin's predecessor, the state sent senior administration officials to the forum's meetings and contributed $60,000 to $100,000 to the forum each year, according to the forum's executive director, Priscilla Wohl.

Under Ms. Palin, the state has reduced its spending to the base-level membership dues, $15,000, and the administration has not attended any forum meetings, including one last fall in Russia.

"Had she participated, in the last 18 months she would have met ambassadors, governors, heads of the European Union's programs, of United Nations programs," Ms. Wohl said.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: TIA
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 11:14 PM

"Were you working undercover for Isreali Intelligence?"

YES

Now, what is your answer?


.........

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: TIA
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 11:14 PM

"Were you working undercover for Isreali Intelligence?"

NO

Now, what is your answer?


.........

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 11:09 AM

"I have nt accused Ms. Palin of saying something she didn't say--I merely forwarded for public amusement the latest fugue of fancy started by her own ridiculous claim.
"


Remember this when I post some right-wing blog about Obama and the madrassa he went to... Just forwarding for public amusement, you know...

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 11:28 AM

YES

Now, what is your answer?


                Why would you think we could trust you?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 11:43 AM

Bruce:

I think your analogy is a bit desperate.    Palin started this fugue of humor by saying something ridiculous. A very different situation.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 03:17 PM

Fugue of fancy in F minor

McCain admitted yesterday that he tells thetruth 100% of the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 04:11 PM

Because I have seen Russia of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 05:21 PM

I found the segment on Supreme Court decisions enlightening. In the Palin interview series with Katie Couric, she responded to a question about Roe vrs Wade and was somewhat vague about what her position was. However, Couric then asked her repeatedly what other Supreme Court decisions she considered important and she couldn't mention one specific case or one specific issue. Nothing about capital punishment, school prayer, discrimination, labor rights, corporate rights. Nothing except to say she was for the state courts making such decisions rather than the Federal Supreme Court.

That lady has got a lot of homework to do before she could even pass a high school civics course. But she looks great!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 07:21 PM

Well, hopefully she'll tear up Biden and get things back on track.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 07:44 PM

Well, Charley H, I noticed that Palin, while saying that she opposed abortion in all circumstances, said that in the case of a 15 year old becoming pregnant from rape that she would "counsel" the girl to "choose" the carry the child and to explore adoption...

That sounds to me like "pro-choice" and I think the Dems should make an issue out of it...

Then when she falls back on the rest of her answer that abortion is best left up to the states (overturning of Roe v. Wade) then I would ask her if she would support vaginal inspection stations at state borders... That would torque her purdy little head...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 08:49 PM

I was reviewing some reaction in the press to Palin's apparent ignorance of Supreme Court decisions and came across this case which she probably knew about and might have mentioned:

... a Supreme Court ruling came down in a case known as Baker v. Exxon. Most of you will recall the devastating oil spill that occurred in Alaska in 1989 when the supertanker Exxon Valdez slammed into Bligh Reef, pouring 11 million gallons (some say over 30 million gallons) of crude oil into the pristine waters of Alaska's Prince William Sound. Many of those in Alaska at the time probably either know someone affected, or were themselves affected personally by the spill. Many of you who were out of state, cut up your Exxon credit cards, watched footage of oil-soaked otters and sea birds, and deeply mourned the loss of a place you'd never even seen.

The Alaska Natives in the area, and those who fished the Sound lost their livelihoods, and their 'holy place'. The loss on many levels cannot be overestimated. Today, in 2008, if you dig down about 8 inches into the sandy beaches of many islands in the Sound you will find thick black crude oil.

Well, the extremely predictable ruling came down from the U.S. Supreme Court today. In a 5-3 vote the court decided to hack and slash the original $5 billion settlement, which had already been hacked and slashed to $2.5 billion in punitive damages. Now the Supreme Court says the amount owed to Prince William Sound fishermen and Alaska Natives affected by the 1989 Exxon Valdez oil spill is $507.5 million.

So did Palin blink or did she have a lapse of memory?

Beats me!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 11:57 PM

The Couric question was 'what Supreme Court decisions (other than Roe v Wade' might you also disagree with'?


Can't every 7th grader say Dred Scott?

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 12:02 AM

Charley, Her self proclaimed area of expertise is big oil!

She did not want to touch the hot potato.

In Republican speak: She did not need to discuss the hot potatoe.

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 10:18 AM

"Can't every 7th grader say Dred Scott?"


                     Yes, but they might not disagree with it!

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 09:39 AM

ANCHORAGE — A report released on Monday by a state board found that Gov. Sarah Palin did not apply improper pressure to try to dismiss a state trooper who was her former brother-in-law and did not violate state ethics laws in the firing of her public safety commissioner.

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The report by the Alaska Personnel Board contradicts the conclusions last month of a separate inquiry into the matter overseen by a bipartisan legislative panel. The earlier inquiry found that Ms. Palin had breached a state ethics act by pressing to have the trooper, Mike Wooten, fired. The panel said, however, that the governor was within her rights to fire the public safety commissioner, Walt Monegan.

The personnel board's report, based on an investigation led by an independent counsel, Timothy J. Petumenos, concluded that there was no evidence to prove Ms. Palin or any state employee had acted improperly in Mr. Monegan's dismissal.

(NYT)

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 10:13 AM

So a bipartisan body of elected officials found her to be in violation, and another body appointed by the governor's office found her to not be in violation. Hmmm...

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 10:18 AM

In any event, isn't it all kind of pointless now?