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BS: Palin VP McCain choice

Donuel 29 Aug 08 - 10:45 AM
Donuel 29 Aug 08 - 10:50 AM
Ed T 29 Aug 08 - 10:51 AM
irishenglish 29 Aug 08 - 10:54 AM
Donuel 29 Aug 08 - 10:56 AM
Bobert 29 Aug 08 - 10:57 AM
Jeri 29 Aug 08 - 10:58 AM
Donuel 29 Aug 08 - 10:58 AM
GUEST,lox 29 Aug 08 - 11:00 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 29 Aug 08 - 11:01 AM
GUEST,lox 29 Aug 08 - 11:03 AM
pdq 29 Aug 08 - 11:15 AM
Donuel 29 Aug 08 - 11:16 AM
Riginslinger 29 Aug 08 - 11:17 AM
SINSULL 29 Aug 08 - 11:18 AM
Donuel 29 Aug 08 - 11:20 AM
Ron Davies 29 Aug 08 - 11:22 AM
Donuel 29 Aug 08 - 11:24 AM
Amos 29 Aug 08 - 11:24 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 29 Aug 08 - 11:26 AM
Stilly River Sage 29 Aug 08 - 11:26 AM
Donuel 29 Aug 08 - 11:27 AM
Riginslinger 29 Aug 08 - 11:28 AM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 29 Aug 08 - 11:28 AM
Donuel 29 Aug 08 - 11:30 AM
pdq 29 Aug 08 - 11:32 AM
Riginslinger 29 Aug 08 - 11:35 AM
Donuel 29 Aug 08 - 11:35 AM
irishenglish 29 Aug 08 - 11:36 AM
Ron Davies 29 Aug 08 - 11:37 AM
Donuel 29 Aug 08 - 11:37 AM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 29 Aug 08 - 11:40 AM
irishenglish 29 Aug 08 - 11:42 AM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 29 Aug 08 - 11:42 AM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 29 Aug 08 - 11:45 AM
pdq 29 Aug 08 - 11:48 AM
GUEST,Dan 29 Aug 08 - 11:49 AM
Donuel 29 Aug 08 - 11:50 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 29 Aug 08 - 11:51 AM
irishenglish 29 Aug 08 - 11:53 AM
pdq 29 Aug 08 - 11:56 AM
Donuel 29 Aug 08 - 11:58 AM
Ebbie 29 Aug 08 - 12:01 PM
Ed T 29 Aug 08 - 12:07 PM
GUEST,lox 29 Aug 08 - 12:08 PM
katlaughing 29 Aug 08 - 12:12 PM
Donuel 29 Aug 08 - 12:16 PM
Riginslinger 29 Aug 08 - 12:19 PM
irishenglish 29 Aug 08 - 12:22 PM
olddude 29 Aug 08 - 12:24 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 29 Aug 08 - 12:30 PM
Donuel 29 Aug 08 - 12:32 PM
pdq 29 Aug 08 - 12:32 PM
irishenglish 29 Aug 08 - 12:40 PM
Ebbie 29 Aug 08 - 12:41 PM
Amos 29 Aug 08 - 12:44 PM
Donuel 29 Aug 08 - 12:47 PM
Joe Offer 29 Aug 08 - 12:48 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 29 Aug 08 - 12:49 PM
pdq 29 Aug 08 - 12:50 PM
Donuel 29 Aug 08 - 12:54 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 29 Aug 08 - 12:57 PM
irishenglish 29 Aug 08 - 01:05 PM
maeve 29 Aug 08 - 01:06 PM
CarolC 29 Aug 08 - 01:23 PM
olddude 29 Aug 08 - 01:23 PM
Ed T 29 Aug 08 - 01:24 PM
Cool Beans 29 Aug 08 - 01:33 PM
olddude 29 Aug 08 - 01:39 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 29 Aug 08 - 01:50 PM
Louie Roy 29 Aug 08 - 01:50 PM
Stilly River Sage 29 Aug 08 - 01:53 PM
Joe Offer 29 Aug 08 - 02:01 PM
GUEST,Sawzaw 29 Aug 08 - 02:09 PM
Amos 29 Aug 08 - 02:22 PM
Amos 29 Aug 08 - 02:30 PM
Riginslinger 29 Aug 08 - 02:43 PM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Aug 08 - 02:48 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 29 Aug 08 - 02:53 PM
Donuel 29 Aug 08 - 03:06 PM
Stilly River Sage 29 Aug 08 - 03:10 PM
mg 29 Aug 08 - 03:13 PM
Donuel 29 Aug 08 - 03:17 PM
kendall 29 Aug 08 - 03:43 PM
Desert Dancer 29 Aug 08 - 03:44 PM
pdq 29 Aug 08 - 03:44 PM
irishenglish 29 Aug 08 - 03:47 PM
Stilly River Sage 29 Aug 08 - 03:48 PM
Donuel 29 Aug 08 - 03:50 PM
mg 29 Aug 08 - 03:53 PM
irishenglish 29 Aug 08 - 03:54 PM
Ed T 29 Aug 08 - 04:09 PM
Stilly River Sage 29 Aug 08 - 04:10 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 29 Aug 08 - 04:15 PM
katlaughing 29 Aug 08 - 04:32 PM
Donuel 29 Aug 08 - 05:46 PM
Peace 29 Aug 08 - 06:24 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 29 Aug 08 - 06:27 PM
Ebbie 29 Aug 08 - 06:31 PM
Lonesome EJ 29 Aug 08 - 06:34 PM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Aug 08 - 06:37 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 29 Aug 08 - 06:39 PM
Lonesome EJ 29 Aug 08 - 06:49 PM
Lonesome EJ 29 Aug 08 - 06:50 PM
Jeri 29 Aug 08 - 06:53 PM
catspaw49 29 Aug 08 - 06:54 PM
katlaughing 29 Aug 08 - 07:01 PM
olddude 29 Aug 08 - 07:04 PM
kendall 29 Aug 08 - 07:07 PM
CarolC 29 Aug 08 - 07:07 PM
Deckman 29 Aug 08 - 07:20 PM
bobad 29 Aug 08 - 08:17 PM
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olddude 29 Aug 08 - 08:32 PM
Riginslinger 29 Aug 08 - 09:31 PM
Donuel 29 Aug 08 - 09:47 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 29 Aug 08 - 09:50 PM
Donuel 29 Aug 08 - 09:51 PM
Louie Roy 29 Aug 08 - 09:59 PM
katlaughing 29 Aug 08 - 10:21 PM
Riginslinger 29 Aug 08 - 10:23 PM
Ebbie 29 Aug 08 - 10:28 PM
CarolC 29 Aug 08 - 10:28 PM
Riginslinger 29 Aug 08 - 10:34 PM
katlaughing 29 Aug 08 - 10:38 PM
CarolC 29 Aug 08 - 10:45 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 29 Aug 08 - 10:51 PM
Riginslinger 29 Aug 08 - 10:55 PM
Ebbie 29 Aug 08 - 10:55 PM
CarolC 29 Aug 08 - 10:59 PM
CarolC 29 Aug 08 - 11:16 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 29 Aug 08 - 11:28 PM
GUEST,heric 29 Aug 08 - 11:48 PM
CarolC 29 Aug 08 - 11:48 PM
Amos 29 Aug 08 - 11:52 PM
CarolC 29 Aug 08 - 11:56 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 30 Aug 08 - 12:18 AM
GUEST,heric 30 Aug 08 - 12:39 AM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 30 Aug 08 - 12:50 AM
CarolC 30 Aug 08 - 01:14 AM
katlaughing 30 Aug 08 - 01:37 AM
CarolC 30 Aug 08 - 01:43 AM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 30 Aug 08 - 01:57 AM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 30 Aug 08 - 02:07 AM
GUEST,Peace 30 Aug 08 - 02:09 AM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 30 Aug 08 - 02:21 AM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 30 Aug 08 - 02:26 AM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 30 Aug 08 - 02:39 AM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 30 Aug 08 - 02:51 AM
Joe Offer 30 Aug 08 - 02:57 AM
Barry Finn 30 Aug 08 - 04:30 AM
SharonA 30 Aug 08 - 04:45 AM
Barry Finn 30 Aug 08 - 04:57 AM
Joe Offer 30 Aug 08 - 05:04 AM
SharonA 30 Aug 08 - 06:14 AM
Big Mick 30 Aug 08 - 09:23 AM
Donuel 30 Aug 08 - 09:26 AM
Donuel 30 Aug 08 - 10:09 AM
Donuel 30 Aug 08 - 10:14 AM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 30 Aug 08 - 10:19 AM
Ebbie 30 Aug 08 - 10:33 AM
Charley Noble 30 Aug 08 - 10:58 AM
Stringsinger 30 Aug 08 - 11:35 AM
Donuel 30 Aug 08 - 11:50 AM
olddude 30 Aug 08 - 12:01 PM
Donuel 30 Aug 08 - 12:04 PM
olddude 30 Aug 08 - 12:09 PM
olddude 30 Aug 08 - 12:16 PM
GUEST,heric 30 Aug 08 - 12:27 PM
Donuel 30 Aug 08 - 12:34 PM
olddude 30 Aug 08 - 12:39 PM
Riginslinger 30 Aug 08 - 12:52 PM
Donuel 30 Aug 08 - 01:10 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 30 Aug 08 - 01:18 PM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Aug 08 - 01:58 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 30 Aug 08 - 02:13 PM
Alice 30 Aug 08 - 02:26 PM
CarolC 30 Aug 08 - 02:26 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 30 Aug 08 - 02:33 PM
Amos 30 Aug 08 - 02:39 PM
olddude 30 Aug 08 - 02:41 PM
GUEST,heric 30 Aug 08 - 02:41 PM
GUEST,heric 30 Aug 08 - 02:49 PM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Aug 08 - 02:56 PM
Alice 30 Aug 08 - 03:06 PM
olddude 30 Aug 08 - 03:07 PM
Alice 30 Aug 08 - 03:15 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 30 Aug 08 - 03:19 PM
Amos 30 Aug 08 - 03:27 PM
CarolC 30 Aug 08 - 03:28 PM
GUEST,heric 30 Aug 08 - 03:30 PM
Amos 30 Aug 08 - 03:37 PM
Alice 30 Aug 08 - 03:37 PM
GUEST,heric 30 Aug 08 - 03:46 PM
Alice 30 Aug 08 - 03:55 PM
CarolC 30 Aug 08 - 04:23 PM
Amos 30 Aug 08 - 05:15 PM
katlaughing 30 Aug 08 - 05:17 PM
katlaughing 30 Aug 08 - 05:18 PM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Aug 08 - 05:31 PM
Alice 30 Aug 08 - 05:40 PM
katlaughing 30 Aug 08 - 05:41 PM
Alice 30 Aug 08 - 06:01 PM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Aug 08 - 06:08 PM
Alice 30 Aug 08 - 06:18 PM
GUEST,heric 30 Aug 08 - 06:35 PM
Art Thieme 30 Aug 08 - 07:12 PM
Donuel 30 Aug 08 - 07:30 PM
pdq 30 Aug 08 - 07:40 PM
Alice 30 Aug 08 - 07:46 PM
Alice 30 Aug 08 - 07:54 PM
Maryrrf 30 Aug 08 - 10:10 PM
Alice 30 Aug 08 - 10:31 PM
Riginslinger 30 Aug 08 - 11:03 PM
Riginslinger 30 Aug 08 - 11:10 PM
Stilly River Sage 30 Aug 08 - 11:39 PM
Barry Finn 31 Aug 08 - 01:21 AM
mg 31 Aug 08 - 01:43 AM
mg 31 Aug 08 - 02:58 AM
pdq 31 Aug 08 - 04:18 AM
Ebbie 31 Aug 08 - 10:27 AM
pdq 31 Aug 08 - 10:36 AM
Ebbie 31 Aug 08 - 10:46 AM
SharonA 31 Aug 08 - 11:00 AM
Donuel 31 Aug 08 - 11:12 AM
Donuel 31 Aug 08 - 12:37 PM
Stringsinger 31 Aug 08 - 01:46 PM
GUEST,heric 31 Aug 08 - 02:17 PM
Stringsinger 31 Aug 08 - 02:21 PM
Peace 31 Aug 08 - 02:22 PM
Peace 31 Aug 08 - 02:24 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 31 Aug 08 - 02:26 PM
Alice 31 Aug 08 - 02:27 PM
Alice 31 Aug 08 - 02:38 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 31 Aug 08 - 02:40 PM
GUEST,heric 31 Aug 08 - 02:56 PM
Peace 31 Aug 08 - 03:00 PM
Alice 31 Aug 08 - 03:16 PM
GUEST,heric 31 Aug 08 - 03:22 PM
robomatic 31 Aug 08 - 04:16 PM
pdq 31 Aug 08 - 06:16 PM
bobad 31 Aug 08 - 06:35 PM
McGrath of Harlow 31 Aug 08 - 06:39 PM
pdq 31 Aug 08 - 06:41 PM
pdq 31 Aug 08 - 07:06 PM
McGrath of Harlow 31 Aug 08 - 07:17 PM
Peace 31 Aug 08 - 07:22 PM
pdq 31 Aug 08 - 07:28 PM
Peace 31 Aug 08 - 07:30 PM
Alice 31 Aug 08 - 07:37 PM
Alice 31 Aug 08 - 07:47 PM
Amos 31 Aug 08 - 08:20 PM
Barry Finn 31 Aug 08 - 09:05 PM
Bobert 31 Aug 08 - 09:35 PM
TRUBRIT 31 Aug 08 - 09:48 PM
mg 31 Aug 08 - 10:07 PM
pdq 31 Aug 08 - 10:07 PM
Donuel 31 Aug 08 - 10:12 PM
TRUBRIT 31 Aug 08 - 10:14 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 31 Aug 08 - 10:18 PM
Riginslinger 31 Aug 08 - 10:22 PM
TRUBRIT 31 Aug 08 - 10:24 PM
Alice 31 Aug 08 - 10:25 PM
Alice 31 Aug 08 - 10:37 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 31 Aug 08 - 10:37 PM
SharonA 31 Aug 08 - 10:57 PM
SharonA 31 Aug 08 - 11:09 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 31 Aug 08 - 11:41 PM
SharonA 01 Sep 08 - 12:23 AM
Ebbie 01 Sep 08 - 12:34 AM
Amos 01 Sep 08 - 12:58 AM
Amos 01 Sep 08 - 01:14 AM
katlaughing 01 Sep 08 - 01:19 AM
emjay 01 Sep 08 - 01:20 AM
Amos 01 Sep 08 - 01:26 AM
CarolC 01 Sep 08 - 03:06 AM
katlaughing 01 Sep 08 - 04:09 AM
SharonA 01 Sep 08 - 05:22 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 01 Sep 08 - 08:18 AM
Amos 01 Sep 08 - 09:20 AM
Riginslinger 01 Sep 08 - 09:27 AM
Amos 01 Sep 08 - 09:46 AM
Amos 01 Sep 08 - 10:17 AM
Donuel 01 Sep 08 - 10:21 AM
Riginslinger 01 Sep 08 - 10:22 AM
Amos 01 Sep 08 - 11:00 AM
Donuel 01 Sep 08 - 11:05 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 01 Sep 08 - 11:23 AM
pdq 01 Sep 08 - 11:31 AM
katlaughing 01 Sep 08 - 11:32 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 01 Sep 08 - 11:36 AM
Amos 01 Sep 08 - 11:54 AM
Alice 01 Sep 08 - 11:56 AM
Amos 01 Sep 08 - 12:02 PM
olddude 01 Sep 08 - 12:05 PM
Bobert 01 Sep 08 - 12:14 PM
Riginslinger 01 Sep 08 - 12:39 PM
Alice 01 Sep 08 - 12:46 PM
Riginslinger 01 Sep 08 - 12:57 PM
Stringsinger 01 Sep 08 - 01:01 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 01 Sep 08 - 01:03 PM
Riginslinger 01 Sep 08 - 01:11 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 01 Sep 08 - 01:24 PM
olddude 01 Sep 08 - 01:24 PM
Amos 01 Sep 08 - 01:28 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 01 Sep 08 - 01:35 PM
CarolC 01 Sep 08 - 01:39 PM
olddude 01 Sep 08 - 01:40 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 01 Sep 08 - 01:52 PM
Big Mick 01 Sep 08 - 01:53 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 01 Sep 08 - 01:55 PM
Susu's Hubby 01 Sep 08 - 01:57 PM
CarolC 01 Sep 08 - 02:01 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 01 Sep 08 - 02:03 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 01 Sep 08 - 02:06 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 01 Sep 08 - 02:09 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 01 Sep 08 - 02:10 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 01 Sep 08 - 02:14 PM
DougR 01 Sep 08 - 02:18 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 01 Sep 08 - 02:20 PM
Alice 01 Sep 08 - 02:27 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 01 Sep 08 - 02:27 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 01 Sep 08 - 02:30 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 01 Sep 08 - 02:34 PM
Alice 01 Sep 08 - 02:44 PM
CarolC 01 Sep 08 - 02:45 PM
Wolfgang 01 Sep 08 - 03:11 PM
Amos 01 Sep 08 - 03:27 PM
Riginslinger 01 Sep 08 - 03:31 PM
Big Mick 01 Sep 08 - 03:34 PM
Riginslinger 01 Sep 08 - 03:38 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 01 Sep 08 - 03:38 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 01 Sep 08 - 03:41 PM
Ebbie 01 Sep 08 - 03:44 PM
CarolC 01 Sep 08 - 03:51 PM
CarolC 01 Sep 08 - 03:54 PM
Riginslinger 01 Sep 08 - 03:57 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 01 Sep 08 - 04:01 PM
Riginslinger 01 Sep 08 - 04:03 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 01 Sep 08 - 04:12 PM
CarolC 01 Sep 08 - 04:21 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 01 Sep 08 - 04:29 PM
Amos 01 Sep 08 - 04:38 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 01 Sep 08 - 04:50 PM
TRUBRIT 01 Sep 08 - 05:14 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 01 Sep 08 - 05:21 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 01 Sep 08 - 06:03 PM
Donuel 01 Sep 08 - 06:21 PM
Greg F. 01 Sep 08 - 06:33 PM
Ron Davies 01 Sep 08 - 06:33 PM
DougR 01 Sep 08 - 06:42 PM
Bobert 01 Sep 08 - 06:44 PM
Alice 01 Sep 08 - 06:47 PM
Ron Davies 01 Sep 08 - 06:49 PM
Riginslinger 01 Sep 08 - 06:51 PM
Peace 01 Sep 08 - 06:53 PM
Peace 01 Sep 08 - 06:54 PM
Riginslinger 01 Sep 08 - 06:57 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 01 Sep 08 - 07:01 PM
irishenglish 01 Sep 08 - 07:59 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Sep 08 - 08:10 PM
Amos 01 Sep 08 - 08:18 PM
Bobert 01 Sep 08 - 08:22 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 01 Sep 08 - 08:25 PM
GUEST,heric 01 Sep 08 - 08:37 PM
Ron Davies 01 Sep 08 - 08:55 PM
Charley Noble 01 Sep 08 - 09:01 PM
Riginslinger 01 Sep 08 - 09:04 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 01 Sep 08 - 09:12 PM
Riginslinger 01 Sep 08 - 09:17 PM
DougR 01 Sep 08 - 09:43 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 01 Sep 08 - 09:48 PM
CarolC 01 Sep 08 - 09:53 PM
olddude 01 Sep 08 - 09:59 PM
Alice 01 Sep 08 - 10:02 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 01 Sep 08 - 10:04 PM
Alice 01 Sep 08 - 10:27 PM
Amos 01 Sep 08 - 10:31 PM
Riginslinger 01 Sep 08 - 10:45 PM
Alice 01 Sep 08 - 10:48 PM
Riginslinger 01 Sep 08 - 10:50 PM
Ron Davies 01 Sep 08 - 11:24 PM
Ron Davies 01 Sep 08 - 11:31 PM
CarolC 01 Sep 08 - 11:32 PM
katlaughing 02 Sep 08 - 12:06 AM
Barry Finn 02 Sep 08 - 12:07 AM
Riginslinger 02 Sep 08 - 12:17 AM
Donuel 02 Sep 08 - 12:23 AM
CarolC 02 Sep 08 - 01:25 AM
Ebbie 02 Sep 08 - 01:31 AM
CarolC 02 Sep 08 - 02:04 AM
Amos 02 Sep 08 - 02:42 AM
Amos 02 Sep 08 - 02:56 AM
Emma B 02 Sep 08 - 05:43 AM
irishenglish 02 Sep 08 - 06:58 AM
Bobert 02 Sep 08 - 07:16 AM
Ron Davies 02 Sep 08 - 07:31 AM
Riginslinger 02 Sep 08 - 07:34 AM
Ron Davies 02 Sep 08 - 07:42 AM
catspaw49 02 Sep 08 - 07:47 AM
Greg F. 02 Sep 08 - 08:00 AM
catspaw49 02 Sep 08 - 08:09 AM
Ron Davies 02 Sep 08 - 08:10 AM
Ron Davies 02 Sep 08 - 08:16 AM
Ron Davies 02 Sep 08 - 08:17 AM
Ron Davies 02 Sep 08 - 08:21 AM
Riginslinger 02 Sep 08 - 08:25 AM
GUEST,Sawzaw 02 Sep 08 - 09:13 AM
beardedbruce 02 Sep 08 - 09:21 AM
Amos 02 Sep 08 - 10:15 AM
Bill D 02 Sep 08 - 10:19 AM
olddude 02 Sep 08 - 10:29 AM
olddude 02 Sep 08 - 10:32 AM
SINSULL 02 Sep 08 - 10:33 AM
Emma B 02 Sep 08 - 10:37 AM
Bobert 02 Sep 08 - 10:50 AM
katlaughing 02 Sep 08 - 10:51 AM
Donuel 02 Sep 08 - 10:52 AM
Susu's Hubby 02 Sep 08 - 10:52 AM
Donuel 02 Sep 08 - 11:02 AM
Riginslinger 02 Sep 08 - 11:11 AM
Bill D 02 Sep 08 - 11:12 AM
Alice 02 Sep 08 - 11:33 AM
Ed T 02 Sep 08 - 11:40 AM
katlaughing 02 Sep 08 - 11:49 AM
Amos 02 Sep 08 - 11:50 AM
Emma B 02 Sep 08 - 11:50 AM
olddude 02 Sep 08 - 12:00 PM
Amos 02 Sep 08 - 12:01 PM
Emma B 02 Sep 08 - 12:04 PM
Donuel 02 Sep 08 - 12:11 PM
Emma B 02 Sep 08 - 12:28 PM
Amos 02 Sep 08 - 12:32 PM
Emma B 02 Sep 08 - 12:39 PM
Susu's Hubby 02 Sep 08 - 12:39 PM
Riginslinger 02 Sep 08 - 12:40 PM
Amos 02 Sep 08 - 12:47 PM
Bobert 02 Sep 08 - 12:48 PM
Stringsinger 02 Sep 08 - 12:55 PM
Susu's Hubby 02 Sep 08 - 12:56 PM
irishenglish 02 Sep 08 - 12:59 PM
Amos 02 Sep 08 - 01:00 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Sep 08 - 01:00 PM
GUEST,heric 02 Sep 08 - 01:01 PM
CarolC 02 Sep 08 - 01:06 PM
CarolC 02 Sep 08 - 01:13 PM
Bill D 02 Sep 08 - 01:24 PM
mg 02 Sep 08 - 01:26 PM
CarolC 02 Sep 08 - 01:32 PM
Bobert 02 Sep 08 - 01:33 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 02 Sep 08 - 01:40 PM
Emma B 02 Sep 08 - 01:55 PM
Amos 02 Sep 08 - 02:06 PM
Bill D 02 Sep 08 - 02:06 PM
Donuel 02 Sep 08 - 02:18 PM
Amos 02 Sep 08 - 02:45 PM
katlaughing 02 Sep 08 - 02:46 PM
Amos 02 Sep 08 - 02:56 PM
Barry Finn 02 Sep 08 - 03:00 PM
katlaughing 02 Sep 08 - 03:02 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 02 Sep 08 - 03:02 PM
Bobert 02 Sep 08 - 03:09 PM
Greg B 02 Sep 08 - 03:14 PM
Barry Finn 02 Sep 08 - 03:15 PM
Amos 02 Sep 08 - 03:16 PM
Amos 02 Sep 08 - 03:20 PM
mg 02 Sep 08 - 03:22 PM
Wesley S 02 Sep 08 - 03:35 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 02 Sep 08 - 03:38 PM
GUEST,heric 02 Sep 08 - 03:49 PM
Alice 02 Sep 08 - 03:55 PM
Bill D 02 Sep 08 - 04:05 PM
GUEST,heric 02 Sep 08 - 04:14 PM
Amos 02 Sep 08 - 04:26 PM
Emma B 02 Sep 08 - 04:30 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Sep 08 - 04:33 PM
Amos 02 Sep 08 - 04:36 PM
irishenglish 02 Sep 08 - 04:36 PM
Amos 02 Sep 08 - 04:40 PM
Bill D 02 Sep 08 - 04:44 PM
Amos 02 Sep 08 - 04:46 PM
Amos 02 Sep 08 - 04:52 PM
Joe Offer 02 Sep 08 - 05:02 PM
Stringsinger 02 Sep 08 - 05:15 PM
Riginslinger 02 Sep 08 - 05:23 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 02 Sep 08 - 05:25 PM
Sorcha 02 Sep 08 - 05:41 PM
irishenglish 02 Sep 08 - 06:01 PM
Big Mick 02 Sep 08 - 06:04 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 02 Sep 08 - 06:05 PM
Sorcha 02 Sep 08 - 06:06 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 02 Sep 08 - 06:13 PM
Emma B 02 Sep 08 - 06:14 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 02 Sep 08 - 06:15 PM
Sorcha 02 Sep 08 - 06:17 PM
Big Mick 02 Sep 08 - 06:29 PM
Sorcha 02 Sep 08 - 06:30 PM
Stringsinger 02 Sep 08 - 06:37 PM
Bobert 02 Sep 08 - 06:40 PM
Sorcha 02 Sep 08 - 06:44 PM
Emma B 02 Sep 08 - 06:48 PM
Riginslinger 02 Sep 08 - 06:50 PM
Emma B 02 Sep 08 - 06:59 PM
Bobert 02 Sep 08 - 07:29 PM
Riginslinger 02 Sep 08 - 07:35 PM
Amos 02 Sep 08 - 07:55 PM
Riginslinger 02 Sep 08 - 07:57 PM
Bobert 02 Sep 08 - 08:04 PM
Amos 02 Sep 08 - 08:08 PM
Joe Offer 02 Sep 08 - 08:38 PM
Emma B 02 Sep 08 - 08:40 PM
Riginslinger 02 Sep 08 - 09:47 PM
Amos 02 Sep 08 - 09:52 PM
Barry Finn 02 Sep 08 - 10:27 PM
Ron Davies 02 Sep 08 - 11:04 PM
CarolC 03 Sep 08 - 01:27 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 03 Sep 08 - 02:52 AM
CarolC 03 Sep 08 - 03:04 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 03 Sep 08 - 03:23 AM
CarolC 03 Sep 08 - 04:00 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 03 Sep 08 - 04:30 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 03 Sep 08 - 04:34 AM
CarolC 03 Sep 08 - 04:42 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 03 Sep 08 - 04:54 AM
CarolC 03 Sep 08 - 06:41 AM
Ron Davies 03 Sep 08 - 07:30 AM
Riginslinger 03 Sep 08 - 07:32 AM
Ron Davies 03 Sep 08 - 08:07 AM
Ron Davies 03 Sep 08 - 08:11 AM
Bobert 03 Sep 08 - 08:21 AM
Charley Noble 03 Sep 08 - 08:37 AM
SINSULL 03 Sep 08 - 08:39 AM
Donuel 03 Sep 08 - 08:40 AM
CarolC 03 Sep 08 - 08:42 AM
Ron Davies 03 Sep 08 - 08:54 AM
CarolC 03 Sep 08 - 08:56 AM
Tinker 03 Sep 08 - 09:12 AM
SINSULL 03 Sep 08 - 09:23 AM
Amos 03 Sep 08 - 09:28 AM
Amos 03 Sep 08 - 09:45 AM
Donuel 03 Sep 08 - 09:47 AM
Amos 03 Sep 08 - 09:51 AM
olddude 03 Sep 08 - 09:55 AM
Amos 03 Sep 08 - 10:04 AM
Donuel 03 Sep 08 - 10:06 AM
curmudgeon 03 Sep 08 - 10:15 AM
Riginslinger 03 Sep 08 - 10:17 AM
Donuel 03 Sep 08 - 10:21 AM
curmudgeon 03 Sep 08 - 10:22 AM
Donuel 03 Sep 08 - 10:24 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 03 Sep 08 - 10:25 AM
Riginslinger 03 Sep 08 - 10:44 AM
Donuel 03 Sep 08 - 10:45 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 03 Sep 08 - 10:58 AM
Donuel 03 Sep 08 - 11:01 AM
Amos 03 Sep 08 - 11:11 AM
Wesley S 03 Sep 08 - 11:13 AM
Donuel 03 Sep 08 - 11:14 AM
katlaughing 03 Sep 08 - 11:19 AM
Riginslinger 03 Sep 08 - 11:33 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 03 Sep 08 - 01:26 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Sep 08 - 01:26 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 03 Sep 08 - 01:36 PM
Amos 03 Sep 08 - 02:05 PM
Riginslinger 03 Sep 08 - 02:13 PM
beardedbruce 03 Sep 08 - 02:35 PM
katlaughing 03 Sep 08 - 02:43 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 03 Sep 08 - 02:47 PM
katlaughing 03 Sep 08 - 02:54 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 03 Sep 08 - 02:55 PM
Greg B 03 Sep 08 - 02:56 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 03 Sep 08 - 02:59 PM
Amos 03 Sep 08 - 02:59 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 03 Sep 08 - 03:03 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Sep 08 - 03:36 PM
Amos 03 Sep 08 - 03:38 PM
katlaughing 03 Sep 08 - 03:38 PM
Riginslinger 03 Sep 08 - 03:51 PM
Joe Offer 03 Sep 08 - 03:52 PM
Amos 03 Sep 08 - 03:57 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 03 Sep 08 - 03:59 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 03 Sep 08 - 04:06 PM
Ed T 03 Sep 08 - 04:07 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 03 Sep 08 - 04:09 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 03 Sep 08 - 04:17 PM
Barry Finn 03 Sep 08 - 04:19 PM
Amos 03 Sep 08 - 04:32 PM
curmudgeon 03 Sep 08 - 04:40 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 03 Sep 08 - 04:48 PM
Sorcha 03 Sep 08 - 05:12 PM
Amos 03 Sep 08 - 05:40 PM
Bobert 03 Sep 08 - 05:40 PM
Riginslinger 03 Sep 08 - 05:50 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 03 Sep 08 - 05:52 PM
Bobert 03 Sep 08 - 06:28 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Sep 08 - 06:48 PM
CarolC 03 Sep 08 - 06:51 PM
Amos 03 Sep 08 - 06:56 PM
SINSULL 03 Sep 08 - 07:13 PM
Emma B 03 Sep 08 - 07:14 PM
Bobert 03 Sep 08 - 07:24 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 03 Sep 08 - 07:28 PM
Riginslinger 03 Sep 08 - 07:35 PM
Bobert 03 Sep 08 - 07:45 PM
curmudgeon 03 Sep 08 - 07:46 PM
Ebbie 03 Sep 08 - 07:55 PM
Amos 03 Sep 08 - 08:02 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 03 Sep 08 - 08:09 PM
Bobert 03 Sep 08 - 08:12 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 03 Sep 08 - 08:14 PM
Bobert 03 Sep 08 - 08:16 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 03 Sep 08 - 08:20 PM
Amos 03 Sep 08 - 08:22 PM
Bobert 03 Sep 08 - 08:22 PM
robomatic 03 Sep 08 - 08:33 PM
Amos 03 Sep 08 - 08:36 PM
CarolC 03 Sep 08 - 08:43 PM
curmudgeon 03 Sep 08 - 08:47 PM
Amos 03 Sep 08 - 08:53 PM
CarolC 03 Sep 08 - 09:00 PM
Bobert 03 Sep 08 - 09:22 PM
Sorcha 03 Sep 08 - 09:25 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 03 Sep 08 - 09:31 PM
katlaughing 03 Sep 08 - 09:32 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 03 Sep 08 - 09:40 PM
katlaughing 03 Sep 08 - 09:46 PM
Bobert 03 Sep 08 - 09:51 PM
Riginslinger 03 Sep 08 - 09:53 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 03 Sep 08 - 10:06 PM
Stilly River Sage 03 Sep 08 - 10:48 PM
GUEST,number 6 03 Sep 08 - 10:51 PM
SINSULL 03 Sep 08 - 10:51 PM
GUEST,number 6 03 Sep 08 - 10:53 PM
Amos 03 Sep 08 - 11:26 PM
GUEST,number 6 03 Sep 08 - 11:28 PM
Ron Davies 03 Sep 08 - 11:48 PM
CarolC 03 Sep 08 - 11:52 PM
katlaughing 03 Sep 08 - 11:57 PM
CarolC 04 Sep 08 - 12:00 AM
GUEST,number 6 04 Sep 08 - 12:02 AM
Riginslinger 04 Sep 08 - 12:11 AM
Stilly River Sage 04 Sep 08 - 12:13 AM
Ron Davies 04 Sep 08 - 12:15 AM
CarolC 04 Sep 08 - 12:16 AM
Ron Davies 04 Sep 08 - 12:17 AM
CarolC 04 Sep 08 - 12:18 AM
CarolC 04 Sep 08 - 12:21 AM
Riginslinger 04 Sep 08 - 12:28 AM
Amos 04 Sep 08 - 12:33 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 04 Sep 08 - 12:48 AM
wysiwyg 04 Sep 08 - 01:10 AM
Barry Finn 04 Sep 08 - 01:22 AM
DougR 04 Sep 08 - 01:47 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 04 Sep 08 - 01:52 AM
CarolC 04 Sep 08 - 01:53 AM
Barry Finn 04 Sep 08 - 01:54 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 04 Sep 08 - 02:06 AM
CarolC 04 Sep 08 - 02:40 AM
Ebbie 04 Sep 08 - 02:51 AM
Joe Offer 04 Sep 08 - 04:08 AM
irishenglish 04 Sep 08 - 07:33 AM
Bobert 04 Sep 08 - 07:42 AM
Emma B 04 Sep 08 - 08:01 AM
GUEST,Dani 04 Sep 08 - 08:15 AM
Bobert 04 Sep 08 - 08:21 AM
SINSULL 04 Sep 08 - 08:29 AM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Sep 08 - 08:44 AM
MaineDog 04 Sep 08 - 08:55 AM
Charley Noble 04 Sep 08 - 08:55 AM
Greg F. 04 Sep 08 - 09:02 AM
Riginslinger 04 Sep 08 - 09:07 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 04 Sep 08 - 09:43 AM
Ebbie 04 Sep 08 - 09:47 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 04 Sep 08 - 09:53 AM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Sep 08 - 09:56 AM
Stilly River Sage 04 Sep 08 - 10:06 AM
katlaughing 04 Sep 08 - 10:19 AM
katlaughing 04 Sep 08 - 10:21 AM
Riginslinger 04 Sep 08 - 10:22 AM
Stilly River Sage 04 Sep 08 - 10:29 AM
Ebbie 04 Sep 08 - 10:38 AM
Bobert 04 Sep 08 - 10:39 AM
Amos 04 Sep 08 - 10:40 AM
Amos 04 Sep 08 - 10:46 AM
Bobert 04 Sep 08 - 10:50 AM
Amos 04 Sep 08 - 10:52 AM
Acorn4 04 Sep 08 - 10:53 AM
Acorn4 04 Sep 08 - 10:58 AM
Amos 04 Sep 08 - 11:40 AM
Bobert 04 Sep 08 - 11:54 AM
Wesley S 04 Sep 08 - 12:26 PM
Ebbie 04 Sep 08 - 12:38 PM
DougR 04 Sep 08 - 12:40 PM
Bill D 04 Sep 08 - 12:50 PM
Peace 04 Sep 08 - 12:53 PM
Bobert 04 Sep 08 - 12:57 PM
Peace 04 Sep 08 - 01:06 PM
irishenglish 04 Sep 08 - 01:16 PM
Bobert 04 Sep 08 - 01:16 PM
Amos 04 Sep 08 - 01:21 PM
GUEST,heric 04 Sep 08 - 01:35 PM
Riginslinger 04 Sep 08 - 01:51 PM
Amos 04 Sep 08 - 01:55 PM
irishenglish 04 Sep 08 - 01:56 PM
beardedbruce 04 Sep 08 - 01:59 PM
irishenglish 04 Sep 08 - 02:06 PM
beardedbruce 04 Sep 08 - 02:10 PM
Peace 04 Sep 08 - 02:16 PM
beardedbruce 04 Sep 08 - 02:21 PM
katlaughing 04 Sep 08 - 02:25 PM
katlaughing 04 Sep 08 - 02:28 PM
irishenglish 04 Sep 08 - 02:29 PM
Ebbie 04 Sep 08 - 02:30 PM
Peace 04 Sep 08 - 02:37 PM
beardedbruce 04 Sep 08 - 02:43 PM
jimmyt 04 Sep 08 - 02:54 PM
Stilly River Sage 04 Sep 08 - 02:57 PM
Stilly River Sage 04 Sep 08 - 03:02 PM
Little Hawk 04 Sep 08 - 03:03 PM
katlaughing 04 Sep 08 - 03:07 PM
Bobert 04 Sep 08 - 03:18 PM
Peace 04 Sep 08 - 03:22 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 04 Sep 08 - 03:34 PM
Bobert 04 Sep 08 - 03:34 PM
mg 04 Sep 08 - 03:35 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 04 Sep 08 - 03:36 PM
Peace 04 Sep 08 - 03:39 PM
Stilly River Sage 04 Sep 08 - 03:42 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 04 Sep 08 - 03:48 PM
Bobert 04 Sep 08 - 03:50 PM
Amos 04 Sep 08 - 03:54 PM
Peace 04 Sep 08 - 03:57 PM
Stilly River Sage 04 Sep 08 - 04:00 PM
Amos 04 Sep 08 - 04:03 PM
Amos 04 Sep 08 - 04:10 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 04 Sep 08 - 04:10 PM
Charley Noble 04 Sep 08 - 04:14 PM
irishenglish 04 Sep 08 - 04:15 PM
SINSULL 04 Sep 08 - 04:15 PM
Donuel 04 Sep 08 - 04:16 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 04 Sep 08 - 04:17 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 04 Sep 08 - 04:18 PM
irishenglish 04 Sep 08 - 04:25 PM
SINSULL 04 Sep 08 - 04:31 PM
GUEST,heric 04 Sep 08 - 04:34 PM
katlaughing 04 Sep 08 - 04:37 PM
Amos 04 Sep 08 - 04:37 PM
Amos 04 Sep 08 - 04:49 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 04 Sep 08 - 04:52 PM
Riginslinger 04 Sep 08 - 04:53 PM
GUEST,heric 04 Sep 08 - 04:58 PM
Donuel 04 Sep 08 - 05:01 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 04 Sep 08 - 05:03 PM
Donuel 04 Sep 08 - 05:10 PM
Stilly River Sage 04 Sep 08 - 05:14 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 04 Sep 08 - 05:20 PM
Stilly River Sage 04 Sep 08 - 05:35 PM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Sep 08 - 05:50 PM
Charley Noble 04 Sep 08 - 05:52 PM
Bobert 04 Sep 08 - 06:03 PM
irishenglish 04 Sep 08 - 06:08 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 04 Sep 08 - 06:25 PM
Bobert 04 Sep 08 - 06:27 PM
irishenglish 04 Sep 08 - 06:27 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 04 Sep 08 - 06:29 PM
Riginslinger 04 Sep 08 - 06:29 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 04 Sep 08 - 06:30 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 04 Sep 08 - 06:42 PM
Bobert 04 Sep 08 - 06:53 PM
Riginslinger 04 Sep 08 - 07:01 PM
Ed T 04 Sep 08 - 07:59 PM
Amos 04 Sep 08 - 08:35 PM
Bobert 04 Sep 08 - 08:36 PM
Greg B 04 Sep 08 - 09:07 PM
Charley Noble 04 Sep 08 - 09:25 PM
Greg B 04 Sep 08 - 09:33 PM
Emma B 04 Sep 08 - 09:35 PM
katlaughing 04 Sep 08 - 09:51 PM
Amos 04 Sep 08 - 09:53 PM
Ron Davies 04 Sep 08 - 10:08 PM
katlaughing 04 Sep 08 - 10:21 PM
katlaughing 04 Sep 08 - 10:24 PM
Donuel 04 Sep 08 - 10:28 PM
beardedbruce 04 Sep 08 - 10:28 PM
Ron Davies 04 Sep 08 - 10:53 PM
Riginslinger 04 Sep 08 - 10:57 PM
GUEST,heric 04 Sep 08 - 11:03 PM
Barry Finn 04 Sep 08 - 11:44 PM
katlaughing 05 Sep 08 - 12:10 AM
mg 05 Sep 08 - 01:13 AM
ard mhacha 05 Sep 08 - 04:36 AM
Lox 05 Sep 08 - 05:34 AM
Emma B 05 Sep 08 - 07:10 AM
Ron Davies 05 Sep 08 - 07:45 AM
Bobert 05 Sep 08 - 07:52 AM
Ron Davies 05 Sep 08 - 08:00 AM
Bobert 05 Sep 08 - 08:15 AM
SINSULL 05 Sep 08 - 08:15 AM
GUEST,number 6 05 Sep 08 - 08:49 AM
Riginslinger 05 Sep 08 - 09:06 AM
Charley Noble 05 Sep 08 - 09:06 AM
Charley Noble 05 Sep 08 - 09:07 AM
Charley Noble 05 Sep 08 - 09:21 AM
GUEST,number 6 05 Sep 08 - 09:40 AM
Bobert 05 Sep 08 - 09:53 AM
GUEST,number 6 05 Sep 08 - 10:01 AM
Bobert 05 Sep 08 - 10:18 AM
Alice 05 Sep 08 - 10:35 AM
Amos 05 Sep 08 - 10:40 AM
Alice 05 Sep 08 - 11:06 AM
Riginslinger 05 Sep 08 - 11:15 AM
Amos 05 Sep 08 - 11:21 AM
Alice 05 Sep 08 - 11:24 AM
Amos 05 Sep 08 - 11:26 AM
beardedbruce 05 Sep 08 - 12:07 PM
GUEST,number 6 05 Sep 08 - 12:45 PM
Greg B 05 Sep 08 - 12:56 PM
Amos 05 Sep 08 - 02:30 PM
Bobert 05 Sep 08 - 02:41 PM
beardedbruce 05 Sep 08 - 02:45 PM
Amos 05 Sep 08 - 02:59 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 05 Sep 08 - 03:46 PM
Amos 05 Sep 08 - 03:54 PM
Riginslinger 05 Sep 08 - 04:15 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 05 Sep 08 - 04:17 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 05 Sep 08 - 04:21 PM
GUEST,heric 05 Sep 08 - 04:21 PM
dick greenhaus 05 Sep 08 - 04:34 PM
Ed T 05 Sep 08 - 04:57 PM
DougR 05 Sep 08 - 05:13 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 05 Sep 08 - 05:16 PM
DougR 05 Sep 08 - 05:29 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 05 Sep 08 - 05:31 PM
GUEST,heric 05 Sep 08 - 05:56 PM
Bobert 05 Sep 08 - 06:23 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 05 Sep 08 - 06:36 PM
Ed T 05 Sep 08 - 07:53 PM
katlaughing 05 Sep 08 - 07:53 PM
CarolC 05 Sep 08 - 07:59 PM
Peace 05 Sep 08 - 08:03 PM
Emma B 05 Sep 08 - 08:30 PM
GUEST,number 6 05 Sep 08 - 10:35 PM
Ron Davies 05 Sep 08 - 10:47 PM
Alice 05 Sep 08 - 10:48 PM
katlaughing 05 Sep 08 - 11:24 PM
katlaughing 05 Sep 08 - 11:36 PM
Amos 06 Sep 08 - 01:01 AM
meself 06 Sep 08 - 01:55 AM
Goose Gander 06 Sep 08 - 03:05 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 06 Sep 08 - 03:50 AM
Emma B 06 Sep 08 - 06:28 AM
GUEST,number 6 06 Sep 08 - 07:53 AM
CarolC 06 Sep 08 - 08:15 AM
CarolC 06 Sep 08 - 08:32 AM
CarolC 06 Sep 08 - 08:33 AM
GUEST,number 6 06 Sep 08 - 08:51 AM
Ron Davies 06 Sep 08 - 09:02 AM
Ron Davies 06 Sep 08 - 09:08 AM
Ron Davies 06 Sep 08 - 09:12 AM
CarolC 06 Sep 08 - 09:17 AM
Donuel 06 Sep 08 - 09:28 AM
Donuel 06 Sep 08 - 09:51 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 06 Sep 08 - 10:25 AM
CarolC 06 Sep 08 - 10:37 AM
CarolC 06 Sep 08 - 10:40 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 06 Sep 08 - 10:53 AM
Donuel 06 Sep 08 - 10:54 AM
Donuel 06 Sep 08 - 11:05 AM
CarolC 06 Sep 08 - 11:15 AM
CarolC 06 Sep 08 - 11:16 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 06 Sep 08 - 11:27 AM
Bobert 06 Sep 08 - 11:30 AM
CarolC 06 Sep 08 - 11:36 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 06 Sep 08 - 11:45 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 06 Sep 08 - 11:52 AM
katlaughing 06 Sep 08 - 11:54 AM
CarolC 06 Sep 08 - 11:57 AM
katlaughing 06 Sep 08 - 12:05 PM
CarolC 06 Sep 08 - 12:18 PM
meself 06 Sep 08 - 12:25 PM
Stringsinger 06 Sep 08 - 12:36 PM
pdq 06 Sep 08 - 12:44 PM
Alice 06 Sep 08 - 01:46 PM
Riginslinger 06 Sep 08 - 02:08 PM
Amos 06 Sep 08 - 02:12 PM
Amos 06 Sep 08 - 02:52 PM
Greg B 06 Sep 08 - 03:22 PM
Bobert 06 Sep 08 - 04:11 PM
Bobert 06 Sep 08 - 04:14 PM
Amos 06 Sep 08 - 04:21 PM
Bobert 06 Sep 08 - 04:59 PM
Amos 06 Sep 08 - 06:44 PM
CarolC 06 Sep 08 - 06:56 PM
Amos 06 Sep 08 - 07:18 PM
Barry Finn 06 Sep 08 - 08:10 PM
Bobert 06 Sep 08 - 08:19 PM
beardedbruce 06 Sep 08 - 08:27 PM
CarolC 06 Sep 08 - 08:59 PM
Little Hawk 06 Sep 08 - 09:03 PM
Bobert 06 Sep 08 - 09:04 PM
Barry Finn 06 Sep 08 - 09:06 PM
Barry Finn 06 Sep 08 - 09:07 PM
Stilly River Sage 06 Sep 08 - 09:10 PM
Little Hawk 06 Sep 08 - 09:15 PM
Amos 06 Sep 08 - 09:53 PM
beardedbruce 06 Sep 08 - 10:10 PM
SINSULL 06 Sep 08 - 10:30 PM
CarolC 07 Sep 08 - 12:08 AM
CarolC 07 Sep 08 - 12:12 AM
katlaughing 07 Sep 08 - 12:35 AM
meself 07 Sep 08 - 01:21 AM
Goose Gander 07 Sep 08 - 02:35 AM
Donuel 07 Sep 08 - 03:23 AM
Emma B 07 Sep 08 - 06:47 AM
beardedbruce 07 Sep 08 - 08:07 AM
Bobert 07 Sep 08 - 08:15 AM
Ed T 07 Sep 08 - 08:30 AM
Ebbie 07 Sep 08 - 10:04 AM
Donuel 07 Sep 08 - 10:08 AM
Emma B 07 Sep 08 - 10:24 AM
Amos 07 Sep 08 - 10:30 AM
dick greenhaus 07 Sep 08 - 10:44 AM
Ed T 07 Sep 08 - 11:11 AM
Bobert 07 Sep 08 - 11:26 AM
beardedbruce 07 Sep 08 - 11:39 AM
katlaughing 07 Sep 08 - 11:43 AM
Amos 07 Sep 08 - 11:44 AM
katlaughing 07 Sep 08 - 11:58 AM
katlaughing 07 Sep 08 - 12:03 PM
Ebbie 07 Sep 08 - 12:05 PM
CarolC 07 Sep 08 - 12:22 PM
Bobert 07 Sep 08 - 12:25 PM
CarolC 07 Sep 08 - 12:28 PM
mg 07 Sep 08 - 01:00 PM
Peace 07 Sep 08 - 01:04 PM
Peace 07 Sep 08 - 01:21 PM
Alice 07 Sep 08 - 01:41 PM
Peace 07 Sep 08 - 01:45 PM
Alice 07 Sep 08 - 01:51 PM
Bobert 07 Sep 08 - 01:54 PM
katlaughing 07 Sep 08 - 02:02 PM
DougR 07 Sep 08 - 02:34 PM
CarolC 07 Sep 08 - 02:37 PM
katlaughing 07 Sep 08 - 02:37 PM
DougR 07 Sep 08 - 02:42 PM
CarolC 07 Sep 08 - 04:15 PM
DougR 07 Sep 08 - 05:24 PM
Amos 07 Sep 08 - 05:31 PM
GUEST,number 6 07 Sep 08 - 05:38 PM
Bobert 07 Sep 08 - 05:43 PM
DougR 07 Sep 08 - 05:45 PM
Emma B 07 Sep 08 - 05:49 PM
Peace 07 Sep 08 - 05:58 PM
Susu's Hubby 07 Sep 08 - 06:12 PM
katlaughing 07 Sep 08 - 06:15 PM
katlaughing 07 Sep 08 - 06:20 PM
Bobert 07 Sep 08 - 06:29 PM
Susu's Hubby 07 Sep 08 - 06:34 PM
pdq 07 Sep 08 - 06:37 PM
Peace 07 Sep 08 - 06:37 PM
GUEST,number 6 07 Sep 08 - 06:46 PM
DougR 07 Sep 08 - 06:46 PM
Susu's Hubby 07 Sep 08 - 06:48 PM
GUEST,number 6 07 Sep 08 - 06:50 PM
Peace 07 Sep 08 - 06:52 PM
pdq 07 Sep 08 - 07:08 PM
Alice 07 Sep 08 - 07:12 PM
Emma B 07 Sep 08 - 07:16 PM
Alice 07 Sep 08 - 07:17 PM
katlaughing 07 Sep 08 - 07:40 PM
pdq 07 Sep 08 - 07:50 PM
Amos 07 Sep 08 - 07:58 PM
Donuel 07 Sep 08 - 07:59 PM
Amos 07 Sep 08 - 08:06 PM
CarolC 07 Sep 08 - 08:19 PM
DougR 07 Sep 08 - 08:22 PM
CarolC 07 Sep 08 - 08:24 PM
CarolC 07 Sep 08 - 08:24 PM
Barry Finn 07 Sep 08 - 09:00 PM
Bobert 07 Sep 08 - 09:08 PM
Bobert 07 Sep 08 - 09:11 PM
Amos 07 Sep 08 - 09:45 PM
katlaughing 07 Sep 08 - 10:03 PM
Joe Offer 07 Sep 08 - 10:39 PM
Amos 07 Sep 08 - 11:06 PM
GUEST,number 6 08 Sep 08 - 12:25 AM
CarolC 08 Sep 08 - 12:26 AM
CarolC 08 Sep 08 - 12:26 AM
GUEST,number 6 08 Sep 08 - 12:29 AM
Peace 08 Sep 08 - 12:31 AM
CarolC 08 Sep 08 - 12:31 AM
Greg B 08 Sep 08 - 08:29 AM
Bobert 08 Sep 08 - 08:32 AM
Donuel 08 Sep 08 - 01:39 PM
Amos 10 Sep 08 - 10:10 AM
dick greenhaus 10 Sep 08 - 12:21 PM
Riginslinger 11 Sep 08 - 07:10 AM
pdq 11 Sep 08 - 10:05 AM
Amos 11 Sep 08 - 10:33 AM
Peace 11 Sep 08 - 10:41 AM
Riginslinger 11 Sep 08 - 11:04 AM
Amos 11 Sep 08 - 11:18 AM
Riginslinger 11 Sep 08 - 04:15 PM
Ebbie 12 Sep 08 - 12:31 PM
Riginslinger 12 Sep 08 - 12:48 PM
Amos 12 Sep 08 - 01:45 PM
Amos 12 Sep 08 - 01:48 PM
Donuel 12 Sep 08 - 04:55 PM
Ebbie 12 Sep 08 - 05:10 PM
Riginslinger 13 Sep 08 - 09:54 AM
Bobert 13 Sep 08 - 10:34 AM
Amos 13 Sep 08 - 05:09 PM
katlaughing 13 Sep 08 - 06:12 PM
Ron Davies 13 Sep 08 - 06:29 PM
Riginslinger 13 Sep 08 - 09:43 PM
Amos 13 Sep 08 - 09:53 PM
Amos 13 Sep 08 - 10:01 PM
Emma B 13 Sep 08 - 10:04 PM
Emma B 13 Sep 08 - 10:06 PM
katlaughing 13 Sep 08 - 10:09 PM
Emma B 13 Sep 08 - 10:21 PM
katlaughing 13 Sep 08 - 10:29 PM
Alice 13 Sep 08 - 11:27 PM
katlaughing 13 Sep 08 - 11:41 PM
Alice 14 Sep 08 - 11:07 AM
Riginslinger 14 Sep 08 - 11:31 AM
Stringsinger 14 Sep 08 - 11:38 AM
Riginslinger 14 Sep 08 - 11:54 AM
Ebbie 14 Sep 08 - 12:23 PM
Stringsinger 14 Sep 08 - 12:37 PM
Alice 14 Sep 08 - 12:37 PM
Alice 14 Sep 08 - 01:19 PM
Alice 14 Sep 08 - 01:22 PM
Amos 14 Sep 08 - 02:23 PM
Ron Davies 14 Sep 08 - 02:40 PM
Amos 14 Sep 08 - 02:46 PM
Riginslinger 14 Sep 08 - 05:47 PM
Alice 14 Sep 08 - 09:40 PM
Amos 14 Sep 08 - 10:40 PM
Alice 17 Sep 08 - 12:45 PM
Alice 17 Sep 08 - 01:00 PM
Donuel 18 Sep 08 - 01:57 AM
Donuel 18 Sep 08 - 02:21 AM
Riginslinger 18 Sep 08 - 07:27 AM
katlaughing 18 Sep 08 - 10:55 AM
Alice 18 Sep 08 - 11:15 AM
Riginslinger 18 Sep 08 - 11:23 AM
Amos 18 Sep 08 - 11:27 AM
katlaughing 18 Sep 08 - 11:52 AM
Amos 18 Sep 08 - 12:05 PM
Ebbie 18 Sep 08 - 12:31 PM
Riginslinger 18 Sep 08 - 01:24 PM
Ebbie 18 Sep 08 - 01:27 PM
Amos 18 Sep 08 - 01:35 PM
katlaughing 18 Sep 08 - 02:37 PM
Amos 18 Sep 08 - 02:45 PM
Riginslinger 18 Sep 08 - 05:51 PM
Bobert 18 Sep 08 - 07:16 PM
Alice 18 Sep 08 - 07:40 PM
Riginslinger 18 Sep 08 - 07:40 PM
CarolC 18 Sep 08 - 07:42 PM
Alice 18 Sep 08 - 07:43 PM
Amos 18 Sep 08 - 08:04 PM
Alice 18 Sep 08 - 10:01 PM
Amos 19 Sep 08 - 01:40 AM
Riginslinger 19 Sep 08 - 07:28 AM
Amos 19 Sep 08 - 09:55 AM
Alice 19 Sep 08 - 09:58 AM
Riginslinger 19 Sep 08 - 12:07 PM
Donuel 19 Sep 08 - 01:12 PM
Stringsinger 19 Sep 08 - 01:27 PM
beardedbruce 19 Sep 08 - 01:34 PM
Amos 19 Sep 08 - 01:54 PM
beardedbruce 19 Sep 08 - 01:57 PM
Riginslinger 19 Sep 08 - 02:56 PM
CarolC 19 Sep 08 - 03:40 PM
Amos 19 Sep 08 - 03:44 PM
beardedbruce 19 Sep 08 - 03:48 PM
Donuel 19 Sep 08 - 08:51 PM
Donuel 19 Sep 08 - 08:58 PM
beardedbruce 22 Sep 08 - 08:47 AM
Alice 22 Sep 08 - 10:15 AM
Ebbie 22 Sep 08 - 10:59 AM
Amos 22 Sep 08 - 11:53 AM
Amos 22 Sep 08 - 12:17 PM
Amos 22 Sep 08 - 12:37 PM
Riginslinger 22 Sep 08 - 12:40 PM
Alice 22 Sep 08 - 12:51 PM
Amos 22 Sep 08 - 03:09 PM
Riginslinger 22 Sep 08 - 04:20 PM
CarolC 22 Sep 08 - 04:22 PM
CarolC 22 Sep 08 - 04:23 PM
Amos 22 Sep 08 - 04:26 PM
Alice 22 Sep 08 - 04:27 PM
Riginslinger 22 Sep 08 - 09:18 PM
Amos 22 Sep 08 - 09:53 PM
Riginslinger 22 Sep 08 - 09:58 PM
CarolC 22 Sep 08 - 10:18 PM
Amos 22 Sep 08 - 10:21 PM
Riginslinger 22 Sep 08 - 11:26 PM
Joe Offer 24 Sep 08 - 03:36 PM
Ebbie 24 Sep 08 - 03:54 PM
Donuel 24 Sep 08 - 04:09 PM
Amos 24 Sep 08 - 05:03 PM
Alice 24 Sep 08 - 05:06 PM
Amos 24 Sep 08 - 05:06 PM
Riginslinger 24 Sep 08 - 09:31 PM
Alice 24 Sep 08 - 10:07 PM
Riginslinger 24 Sep 08 - 10:32 PM
CarolC 25 Sep 08 - 12:08 AM
Riginslinger 25 Sep 08 - 07:26 AM
CarolC 25 Sep 08 - 07:56 AM
Alice 25 Sep 08 - 08:51 AM
Riginslinger 25 Sep 08 - 08:59 AM
Alice 25 Sep 08 - 09:18 AM
Alice 25 Sep 08 - 09:23 AM
Alice 25 Sep 08 - 10:27 AM
Donuel 25 Sep 08 - 10:34 AM
Riginslinger 25 Sep 08 - 09:45 PM
Alice 25 Sep 08 - 09:47 PM
Riginslinger 25 Sep 08 - 09:50 PM
Amos 26 Sep 08 - 03:57 PM
Donuel 26 Sep 08 - 04:00 PM
Donuel 26 Sep 08 - 04:02 PM
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Amos 01 Oct 08 - 02:34 PM
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Riginslinger 01 Oct 08 - 04:14 PM
Donuel 01 Oct 08 - 04:57 PM
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Desert Dancer 01 Oct 08 - 11:12 PM
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Subject: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 10:45 AM

Karl ROve calls her a SOFT REPUBLICAN WOMAN.

how does he know, has he felt her?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 10:50 AM

I think the Republicans NEED to lose this election until the middle class heals enough to have some money to rip off again.

Until then its a Democratic Goverment.

PS Ted Stevens vouches for her.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 10:51 AM

Biggest surprise since David Bowie married Iman:)


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: irishenglish
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 10:54 AM

I'm all for picking a dark horse, but from what I have seen, I don't think this would be a wise choice. Why do I have the feeling that if it is her, when it comes to the VP debate, that Biden would talk circles around her.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 10:56 AM

She is a pro lifing, oil drilling, Obama hating, ethics avoiding shill.
Since John McCain is so vital and in perfect health, at least she won't be President/ will she?

Ebbie might know something since Palin is from Alaska.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 10:57 AM

Maybe the Repubs will have her pose nude and sell the pics to raise money???

Awwww, jus' funnin'...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 10:58 AM

First term governor who hasn't been in office for 2 years yet? The think she'd be a good president if McCain can't do it?!

Stick a fork in the Republican campaign. (He would have done better with Paris Hilton, I think.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 10:58 AM

Ignorance worked for W.
She could call Biden an elitist for knowing what he is talking about, and probably get a big cheer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:00 AM

I wondered vainly whether it might be Michael Palin ...

... and now for something completely different ...

... with 10 years experience as minister for silly walks ...

"yes - we need to think for ourselves" - " I don't" ... etc ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:01 AM

This is a brillant move, politically, on McCains part. She is more of a centrist and has been known as a whistle blower.

This is changing the landscape of our country. Republicans are now having to deal with change in their own party. The traditions that the hardliners have clung to are now being tossed aside.

This is going to be a helluva race!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:03 AM

here she is


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: pdq
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:15 AM

Are fans of hers called Palin dromes?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:16 AM

She CAMPAIGNED FOR PAT BUCCHANNON

centirst?

Bucchannon is not a centrist my friend..


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:17 AM

Does she ever take her glasses off? At least it will get McCain the Hillary vote!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:18 AM

As for the prospect of her being vice president, Palin told Kudlow that she could not answer the question of whether she wanted the job "until somebody answers for me what is it exactly that the VP does every day. I'm used to being very productive and working real hard in an administration. We want to make sure that that VP slot would be a fruitful type of position, especially for Alaskans and for the things that we're trying to accomplish up here…."



HMMMM Does she know that she will be VP of the entire country if elected? Not especially of Alaskans?

Mother of five including a Down's Syndrome infant born in April. Pro-life. She will appeal to women and possibly to the women who felt cheated when Clinton lost the nomination. An interesting choice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:20 AM

She was on the Oil and Gas Commission and
she blew the whistle on a sexual harrasment situation.
When nothing was done she quit.

She (wrote?) an AK ethics bill I know nothing about.

She is under investigation but as you know you could even indict a ham sandwich.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:22 AM

Her veto prevented the state of Alaska from blocking state benefits for same-sex couples; that is, it granted state benefits to same-sex couples working for the state.

This will not help McCain with the "Religious Right", though she is "strongly pro-life".

And her being "pro-life" will not help him peel off women who want to maintain Roe v Wade---though he probably assumes choosing a woman will help him with women. And obviously it won't help him with good ol' boys who just don't want to vote for a woman.

It will certainly be fascinating to see how this plays out--she has been very strongly against corruption, a weak point for Republicans for quite a while. And it appears the fight between her and her brother-in-law, a former Alaska State policeman did not in fact involve pressure by her to remove him--though that's still somewhat murky. I'm sure we'll hear more about that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:24 AM

She will make a good attack dog that has little to lose...

Her favorite web site http://www.daily.pk/world/84-worldnews/6726-barack-obama-is-not-a-us-citizen.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:24 AM

DAYTON, Ohio — John McCain will introduce Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin to be his vice presidential running mate at an event here at noon Friday, senior campaign sources confirmed to FOX News.

Palin emerged earlier in the day as the hot name in the vice presidential sweepstakes after reports circulated that two short-listers — Mitt Romney and Tim Pawlenty — were out of the running.

Adding fuel to the Palin candidacy was a report that a charter aircraft from Anchorage owned by a McCain supporter had arrived at a small airport outside Dayton, Ohio, where McCain has scheduled a noon ET rally to announce his choice.




It has beens aid her views on global warming match John McCain's. She's sitting in the wet-spot of glacier melt, Alaska, and quibbling about the trends?

This will raise some interesting blather. Is America ready for a woman? Is she "ready to be" Vice President. I guiess if you can lob stupid rhetorical questions like that at Obama, turnabout becomes fair play.

But it was a canny move; she has youth, gender and looks to compensate for his age, gender, and ugliness.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:26 AM

"She CAMPAIGNED FOR PAT BUCCHANNON

centirst?

Bucchannon is not a centrist my friend.. "

Of course not, but not everything is black and white. She is a convservative, make no mistake about that, but she has supported some issues that Pat would not. She is not going to win over Hillary supporters with her stand on abortion rights, and I do not think that liberals are going to vote for her either, but she is challenging the hardcore Republican image and ideals.

I think this also put Obama in a better position. The experience issue is a wash now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:26 AM

What an insult--does he think by putting a vagina in the race that women will automatically switch parties, switch from supporting Hillary just because they want a woman at the top? Hillary had it all--experience, brains, talent, and had been so thoroughly vetted that she was case hardened.

This bimbo may be from a large state territorially but they're small potatoes on the world scene and a very tiny population over-all. Can you see her stepping into the presidency if McCain kicks the bucket? I think the only thing I know about this woman is that she had a baby while in office (or was that Massachusetts? They did say her child has Down Syndrome and she knew ahead of time, so is taking moral high ground against abortion on this basis). Like no one else has ever had a baby and had to go back to work, right?

A caller on Diane Rehm pegged it this morning--they're being incredibly naive with this pick, but now they have to live with it. Let the Republican dog-and-pony-show begin.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:27 AM

She will also deflect the super wealthy elitist charges.
She has a frugal reputation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:28 AM

"But it was a canny move; she has youth, gender and looks to compensate for his age, gender, and ugliness."


          Yeah, but he's going to look like Father Time when they appear on the stage together!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:28 AM

I do not think that she is any way a centrist.

It is a very very risky move on McCain's part. It puts all of McCain's attacks on Obama's experience in a very hypocritical light. In fact, every time a reporter asks the responsible question about her experience, McCain will HAVE TO either remove his best argument against Obama OR cut down his own VP Pick. Obama is less experienced than McCain, but she is further behind Obama.

This pick will get a lot of press. But, it will take ink away from the Republican convention, possibly a good idea considering how many Republican lawmakers won't be there and considering that Bush/Cheney will be there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:30 AM

Well put Stilly. ;/}

After all McCain already has hefty breasts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: pdq
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:32 AM

If Palin really becomes the VP candidate, it should put an end to all claims that McCain is conservative. He usually ate lunch with his fellow Irish liberals Ted Kennedy and Pat Lahey, and he coauthored legislation with Feingold, the most liberal Senator at that time. McCain is a hawk on foreign policy and that comes from his family background in the military.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:35 AM

One thing it did do, it stopped all discussion about Obamas speech from last night on all the major news outlets.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:35 AM

As a 2 year govenor, she has more executive experience than McCain


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: irishenglish
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:36 AM

Well, since it seems all but official now, I think Biden will be able to pick her apart quite effectively in a one on one. Though I wouldnt have put it the way SRS just did :.) it can be argued that Obama picked someone to shore up perceived foreign policy weaknessses and what have you, which will help him get votes, this is a move based purely on getting votes from where I stand, and not much else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:37 AM

Rove has been quoted as saying that the 1.4 million volunteers who supported Bush in 2004 were what made the difference in that election. There are estimates that Obama can get up to 4 times that number. That's the crux of McCain's problem--and this pick has not solved it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:37 AM

Yes she makes a good short term SMOKE screen.
She isn't bad in the MIRROR either.

Add some flag wrap and she's pipin hot ready to go.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:40 AM

The best attack against McCain is on his flipflopping.

He flip flopped on legislation he himself put up to the Senate. How can we believe a man who has voted against his own laws?


pdq
I'm curious as to what even total partisans like you think bout that. Which McCain do you think would govern if elected. The McCain of 25 years in Congress or the McCain of this campaign?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: irishenglish
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:42 AM

Jack makes a good point there. He can't criticize "experience" now, or if he does, he's going to have to be pretty damn crafty about how he does it.

Riginslinger, I think everyone knew last night that was going to happen anyway. IMO, it doesn't matter. If you watched Obama's speech last night, this announcement isn't going to make you forget it so quickly, whether you agreed with it or not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:42 AM

BTW, Its been announced. She is the VP choice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:45 AM

Here is a soundbite for you.

Are Hillary's feminist women really going to cross the aisle to vote for an anti abortion beauty queen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: pdq
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:48 AM

"...total partisans like you..." ~ JtS

That obviates a reply, at least from me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Dan
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:49 AM

I wouldn't dismiss her as a bimbo quite so quickly, for a couple of reasons. One is that that kind of attack is a fairly classically sexist way of dismissing women, and it's one that tends to backfire. The worst things the Democrats could do is ridicule or underestimate her - that would play into McCain's hands. Biden will have to be especially careful in the debate not to appear to talk down to her in any way. What I gather is that she's smart, well spoken, and apparently honest.

That said, I think it's a cynical choice - a bald-faced play to get the disaffected Hillary voters to vote against their own interests. Some probably will, but I doubt that many - especially when her record on choice is made clear. She is young enough to make McCain look very old by comparison, and as others have said, her resume makes Obama look like an elder statesman by comparison.

It will certainly keep things interesting.

Dan


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:50 AM

I think McCain would have gotten more mileage from Condi Rice than Palin.

But it's hard to find an experienced executive for President since
good canidates may not want to be saddled with a likely loss.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:51 AM

"I do not think that she is any way a centrist."

Jack, I think you are right. My earlier statement was based on what I've heard about her previously, but as the news is flashing and I'm reading more, I do not think she is a social conservative.

Before today, I read about her ethics reforms and the fact that while she does not support gay marriage, she did veto a bill that would have blocked state benefits for same-sex couples. She is also not a friend to oil corporations.

Yet, you are right. She embraces values that will not appeal to liberals or Hillary supporters.   I think this move will help Obama more than hurt him. At the same time, it is going to force the Republican part to re-examine their own values.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: irishenglish
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:53 AM

That too is a good point Dan. Biden will have to avoid sounding superior, while simultaneously hitting her on how she would govern if the unthinkable happened. I suspect Biden isn't too worried though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: pdq
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:56 AM

Two years as a state governor is more executive experience than any of the other three candidates (Obama, Biden and McCain) has. Being a Navy pilot, by itself, is not an exective position.

Oddly, Hillary's seven years on the Board of Directors of Wal*Mart probably does qualify.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:58 AM

What is Rove up to by calling her a soft Republican woman??
Is he marketing warm and fuzzy over foriegn policy experience?
Maybe the numbers told him that a strong anti abortion running mate was required.

On the dark side, if an October Abortion smear is made against Michelle Obama, Palin would be the one to do it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:01 PM

I am astounded. Palin is still fairly popular in Alaska but she made a lot of people unhappy when it came to her first budget. As they said, it was like she took a cleaver to each program without ever lookintg at what the program did. (psssst The word is that she is not too bright. But she is pretty.)

I can't imagine in what way she'll help McCain's election. However, if something happened to McCain and she became president, you suppose she'd be another surprise in the mold of Schwartzenegger? I dunno. Maybe the rrick is to have good support behind one; figureheads are pretty prevalent these days.

Strangely enough, and to add to the chaos, her lieutenant governor, Sean Parnell, is currently running against long time Congressman Don Young. What happens if Alaska loses its two top spots? lol

"We want to make sure that that VP slot would be a fruitful type of position, especially for Alaskans and for the things that we're trying to accomplish up here…." Governor Palin

Strikingly, this is just about the same thing she said when she became governor. She told the state that Wasilla and the 'valley' will always have her heart and will always look out for their best interests.

Her children still go to school there, she has her offices in Anchorage a few miles away from Wasilla and the family rarely is in residence at the governor's domicile in Juneau.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:07 PM

Some background from the web:

http://www.nationaljournal.com/almanac/2008/people/ak/akgv.php


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:08 PM

The democrats will use the clintons to bash her.

That is the only way they can be of use without appering hypocritical and it is the most effective way of bashing Palin without it being done by condescending men.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:12 PM

Well-said, SRS!

Thanks for your take, Ebbie. I look forward to hearing more from you.

The experience issue is a wash now. No kidding! Whoo-hoo!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:16 PM

Many right wing talking heads are making a silly point that Palin lives right next to Russia and knows the stakes of the Russian oil monopoly game.

I measured on my globe and found that she lives exactly as far away from Moscow as I do in Maryland. And she has never met Putin just like me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:19 PM

"The democrats will use the clintons to bash her."


                Well, they better not let her get too close to Bill!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: irishenglish
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:22 PM

pdq-ex-mayor and two year Governor of the largest state area wise, but one of the smallest population wise equals more governing ability than:

John McCain and Joe Biden, multi term US Senators, one from a state in the top 20 population wise, one from a small state geographically and population, but part of the big, big Northeast block?

Barack Obama, partial term US Senator, and ex State Senator of approx. 7 years from a state that is in the top 5 population wise?

Seriously, you're going to harp on that one because she has executive experience? At the same time you lamented the short straw the Dems gave Pelosi at the convention, this despite what you claim is her (now deleted) nefarious past?

Cmon man. You can do better.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: olddude
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:24 PM

Well come on people,
she does have a great body and being an avid hunter she can gut
a Moose should we ever need it

What more could you want?

(I am so going to hell for that one!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:30 PM

Biden is to be the attack dog against McCain. He would be wise to debate her on McCain's record and not attack her.

No matter what he says, the Rovites on McCain's team will try to twist it as an attack on motherhood, or Hillary.

Lox makes a good point but I will try to refine it. Hillary Clinto should be the one to attack. Bill had better keep his mouth shut about her.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:32 PM

Here she comes she is   OMG Its... its.... Julia-Louis-Dreyfus from Sienfeld

not that there is anything wrong with that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: pdq
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:32 PM

Somebody needs to look up the definition of "executive" rather than guess at its meaning. The president is chief "executive" not chief "legislator" or chief "justice".


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: irishenglish
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:40 PM

Oh I know the meaning pdq. I don't need you to tell me otherwise. I guess all those other guys who became President after being Senator, rather than Governors all pale in comparison to Sarah Palin and her awesome executive governance then.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:41 PM

olddude, she does appear to have a sense of humo(u)r: she calls her husband the "first dude". Someday, if he is lucky, he too will be an "old dude". :)

But you know, I'm willing to bet on what I think happened. I'll bet that it is the mark of a deparate man. I'll bet that until very recently, McCain had no intention of inviting Palin on board.

I'll bet that he is trying to gain momentum, that he is flailing about, trying to blunt the impact of the Democratic Convention. That whole event had to have been a serious blow to McCain's campaign:

* Everybody's talking about the marvelous speeches and the insights that the speakers brought forth.
* Everybody's* talking approvingly of what an Obama administration might bring to the country.
* Having those military men and women line up on stage supporting Obama and not McCain had to have a severe impact.

I do not think that McCain has a hope in the nethers of winning.

*OK, hyperbole. NOt everybody approves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:44 PM

Good idea, pdq. LEt's start with W., as he seems to have confused the three rather badly.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:47 PM

She has a 5 inch jeweled FLAG PIN the biggest durn flag pin I have ever seen.   
She has a child going to serve in Iraq and she says the word nuclear, 'nuckular'.
Now that's a patriot! A solid pro life pro, lifetime member of the NRA, pro family, anti earmark and the brightest new star in the Republican Constellation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:48 PM

Sarah Palin was Mayor of Wasilla, Alaska, before becoming Governor, and she was Miss Wasilla in 1984. Now, Wasilla is a town of some 8,500 people, and everybody knows everybody there. I have a friend, a liberal Democrat, who has lived in Wasilla all her life, and she's been quite impressed with Sarah Palin. Palin defied the Republican old-boys' network to become governor, and she is reputed to be a reformer who has not been tainted by the corruption of the Republican Party of Alaska.

I've respected John McCain as a Senator because he has been a maverick in the Republican Party. The Democrats say he has voted for Bush Administration proposals 95 percent of the time, but he still seemed to march to his own drummer. My impression of his has soured in the last few weeks because he has portrayed himself as such a staunch supporter of George W. His selection of another maverick Republican for Vice President, makes me feel a whole lot better about him.

I'm not all that impressed with Joe Biden, but I do think very highly of Obama and I'll be proudly voting Democratic this year. Still, a McCain-Palin ticket sounds pretty good to me. I want Obama to win, but I think I could respect McCain and Palin if they are elected. I certainly have never had any respect for George Bush.

-Joe-


Hey, what are you women doing, making all these sexist jabs like calling Palin a "bimbo"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:49 PM

She has less than two years experience in a state with less than a million people which can't be much of a challenge to govern. It not only does not have income taxes but it rebates oil revenues to its residents every year.

Two years ago she was mayor of a very small city.

This makes her ready to be Commander in Chief?

She is also from one of the most corrupt states in the US and I am just seeing on MSNBC, under investigation in that state.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: pdq
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:50 PM

" I guess all those other guys who became President after being Senator, rather than Governors all pale in comparison to..."

Well (this just for fun, really) please show us how well-informed you are and name them all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:54 PM

I get the Rove propoganda now, Hillary is a hard Democrat while Sarah is a 'soft' Republican.

correction: she does not oppose another oil company pipeline...

She supports a $40 billion pipleine


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:57 PM

She wants to exploit ANWR, she is to the right of McCain on this issue.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: irishenglish
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 01:05 PM

Just for fun pdq? Nope. Sounds like you are trying to show me up. Not playing. Thanks all the same. Off the top of my head, I can name the ones of the modern era. But baiting me looking to see how well informed I am when these days any answer is but a click away if I was so inclined is rather silly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: maeve
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 01:06 PM

I am disappointed in the sexist comments made by males and females in this thread. I have a lot of respect for many of the speakers here. I can not respect the harsh comments.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 01:23 PM

Regarding McCain's VP choice, it looks to me like, in order to try to distract voters from the real issues and the real problems they face, he's decided to go with the "Oh, look! Something shiny!" approach.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: olddude
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 01:23 PM

Maeve
My comment was completely in Jest, my sense of humor is hard to take many times. But I can tell you from my heart, there is nothing sexiest about me just the opposite. I was a drop dead Hillary supporter and now the same with Obama. I have all daughters and my youngest is very active in politics and the other two are succesful in business. All three are drop dead beautiful and they had there share of sexist remarks from people. I taught them to just fire back or laugh when it is in jest. My apologies if my comment offended you. It was not meant to be anything but jest. Actually from what I read she is a good leader in Alaska. I still won't vote for McCain because I don't want another Bush but she is respected in her home state.

Dan


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 01:24 PM

Moose stew anyone?

http://alaskaoutdoorjournal.com/Departments/Recipes/Game/moosestew.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Cool Beans
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 01:33 PM

Bill Clinton offered us a Bridge to the 21st Century. McCain is offering us a Bridge to Nowhere. You can quote me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: olddude
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 01:39 PM

and to qualify my point because it was true
Sarah Palin


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 01:50 PM

Of the 11 men who've served as US President since WWII, the breakdown regarding the highest level jobs they held prior to their elections is:

Army General: 1 (Eisenhower)
Senator: 1 (Kennedy)
Governor: 4 (Carter, Reagan, Clinton, Bush II)
Vice President: 5 (Truman, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Bush I)


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Louie Roy
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 01:50 PM

I was born and raised a Democrat for 83 years but this November I will be voting for a different party and after reading all of the nasty remarks made about McCain and Palin it has made it easier for me to make this statement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 01:53 PM

Hey, what are you women doing, making all these sexist jabs like calling Palin a "bimbo"?

Hey, Joe, do you think that just any woman will do, that this is what all of those people, the largest percentage of them middle-aged and older women, were working for? To have a woman in office at all costs?

Hell, NO!

People miss the point, that not only was Hillary a woman she was as-or-more-qualified than anyone out there in the Democratic field. Better than the Republican field as well. Would you say that about Palin? Can you honestly imagine that Palin could get through all of the events of the last 20 years that Hillary has faced without buckling? We don't know, she is younger and hasn't the background (and what is her education?) but I wouldn't put any money on her.

There is nothing wrong with a woman having good looks, and absolutely nothing wrong with a smart woman having good looks. But it does sound like Palin has been playing the looks card in the popularity component of the political contest in her state, doesn't it?

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 02:01 PM

And even though it appears that Palin was instrumental in the cancellation of the "Bridge to Nowhere" project, ill-informed pundits will still try to blame the bridge on her. See this article for more information.
Seems to me that Palin is a good choice, somebody who breaks the mold and who has been associated with the idea of reform in the Republican Party. If he wants to win, McCain is going to have to stay away from everyone closely associated with the Bush Administration. Choosing Palin certainly helps in that way. Comparing her to Cheney, you sure can't say she is "more of the same." If you're a Democrat, can you think of a Republican you'd rather see as Vice President? Karl Rove?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 02:09 PM

As much as I dislike Obummer, I am a realist. McCain is sunk. He does not have a snowball's chance in hell.

I can't see any woman, except maybe Xenia the Warrior Princess, holding up to Putin or Chavez or Achmadinijad or Kim Jong-il.

But I ain't going to worry over it either. Life is too short.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 02:22 PM

A thought experiment: If McCain keeled over from a heart attack three weeks before the November election, do you think the GOP would elevate Palin to their Presidential candidate?

If they would not, consider that if the same event happens a day AFTER the January swearing in ceremony, that is what they will have done.

Question: is this a wise course for the nation?



a


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 02:30 PM

As much as I dislike Obummer, I am a realist.

Much as this oxymoronic proposition amuses me, I appreciate your pragmatic concession, Sawz.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 02:43 PM

Still, she has a lot more executive experience than Oh Bummer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 02:48 PM

It should make it hard to get too much mileage on the "Obama isn't experienced enough to be President" line. Any vice-president needs to be ready to step into the top job at a moment's notice. More especially when the president is McCain's age.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 02:53 PM

"Still, she has a lot more executive experience than Oh Bummer. "

You are dreaming. Even when you try to twist the word "executive", she still comes up on the shortside.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 03:06 PM

I heard someone point out the 20 itch/

Every 20 years the Republican party picks a well known VP to run and everytime they lose.

Everytime they select an unknon like Quayle, Agnew etc they win!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 03:10 PM

It did occur to me just now that her best match is probably Dan Quayle.

Makes me smile!

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: mg
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 03:13 PM

I think it is inappropriate, and it certainly has been done to Obama, to refer to the genitals of the candidates. Why is this being done?

I do not think she is playing the pretty card. She is an attractive woman to most people. She dressed this morning in what seems to me a way to play down her looks..a dowdy black suit, hair pinned up in a matronly bun, and geeky (no offense to geeks) eyeglasses. That is the same look I have adopted to play down my gorgeousness.

She does not seem qualified to be president, but nevertheless she strikes me as a very impressive woman and certainly one of the better role models for girls I have seen..quite an array of skills not commonly found. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 03:17 PM

I sense she is far more intelligent than Dan Quayle


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: kendall
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 03:43 PM

Louis, I can't imagine what any democrat could possibly say that would make me vote for a republican! Even a quick look at McCain's record would turn me off.
Read "The Nightingale's Song" if you want to know the real John McCain.He crashed 5 planes, was near the bottom of his class at Annapolis, a hot dogger, and screwup. He hit his wife with "I want a divorce" while she was recovering from an accident that left her disfigured. He has been in the Senate for 25 years, in other words, part of the problem we now have. He went half way around the world and bombed the piss out of a country that never did us any harm. His behavior as a prisoner was admirable but it does not qualify him to be president.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 03:44 PM

Of the 11 men who've served as US President since WWII, the breakdown regarding the highest level jobs they held prior to their elections is:

Army General: 1 (Eisenhower)
Senator: 1 (Kennedy)
Governor: 4 (Carter, Reagan, Clinton, Bush II)
Vice President: 5 (Truman, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Bush I)


Of those who were vice presidents, Truman, Johnson, and Nixon were senators before that, Ford & Bush I had been congressmen (tho Bush I had also been ambassador to the U.N. and head of the CIA in betweentimes).

~ Becky in Tucson


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: pdq
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 03:44 PM

Thanks, B-dubs-El. The answere (just for fun) was Jack Kennedy. In the whole history of the US, just one person moved from the Senate to the Whtie House.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: irishenglish
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 03:47 PM

Sorry pdq. Incorrect. Warren G Harding did as well. Just for fun.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 03:48 PM

To refer to the genitals is to be perfectly blunt about McCain's very obvious move, Mary. In this campaign there is little new, it's two men running for the presidency. Women were enthusiastic because Hillary was a solidly good candidate for the top position, but now, the new VP running mate is nothing more than political arm candy. Many women will feel seriously diminished by this choice.

McCain put a woman on the ticket clearly hoping that Hillary's disappointed supporters are so shallow that they'll be like iron shavings to a magnet and vote for him simply because he has a woman on the ticket.

I know this will work against him. As a Hillary supporter, I sometimes wondered if I was so in favor of her because she is a woman, but when I see what the alternative is, it is repugnant. Palin's a big fish from a tiny Alaskan pond. Hillary asked on Tuesday night "Are you in this for me, or for these other people?" The answer for me was "both." With Hillary it was excellent that she was one of us.

Palin far is less solid than Geraldine Ferraro, who was a marginal choice at best, and I say this of my party. I think Quayle has met his match in the pretty partner fluffy VP candidate category.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 03:50 PM

FOX Palin a cure for all energy ills. Palin


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: mg
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 03:53 PM

Many women were not enthusiastic about Hillary. I was personally appalled at the prospect. I do not see her as more qualified than others like Sebelius, whom I did like quite a lot. I still would not refer to her private parts, as people did, or indicated she had some that women would not generally have..She should have at the very least shot them a withering glance and said that is not something we should be discussing on a nationally televised podium.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: irishenglish
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 03:54 PM

And to further (just for fun) if one considers that since it switched to VP's being chosen, two other men in this century might be considered as well technically. They are of course, Harry S Truman, and Lyndon Johnson, whose highest offices were Senator until called upon through death and assasination. Both of those gentlemen never served in an "executive" capacity pdq. Just for fun.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 04:09 PM

Carole C,
In addition to putting a good alternative perspective forward on issues, (with few words), I find your comments quite humourous.

What some call a "bold move" in putting Palin forward, it was expected by many punbdits (likely from trial baloons by McCain's folks) and quite reasoned.

It simply a counter move to ballance out the "minority group" card that the other guys have (While women are a majority of the population, they are a minority in the political feld).

What was a bold move, was her mentioning of Hillory Clinton in her speech. I suspect this could back-fire.

(BTW, is anyone so nieve to believe that these speeches are not written by professional speech writers, and studied to death by party handlers/stratigists, and presented to focus groups before being given?)


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 04:10 PM

mg, obviously this is going to impact people who would have actually voted for Hillary. I'm speaking for women like myself who favored her. Your mileage may vary.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 04:15 PM

Incidentally, of those 11 presidents, Bush I was the only one to go directly from VP to President via election. (Nixon was elected eight years later, after having lost to Kennedy. The other three assumed the job upon the death or resignation of their bosses.)

To me, this points out what a non-issue the "experience" issue really is. What better way to gain the experience needed to serve as President than by serving as Vice President? But the American public has only thought highly enough of one of its VPs to kick him upstairs to the top job? (Twice if you count Gore's winning the popular vote.)

"Experience", or lack thereof, is nothing but a smokescreen. It counts for no more in politics than it does in business, and businesses routinely promote talented, highly motivated newcomers ahead of more "experienced" but less creative plodders.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 04:32 PM

From the NYTs's Timothy Egan

August 29, 2008, 2:36 pm
Ms. Alaska

She hunts! She fishes! She eats moose burgers! She can gut a salmon as well as dispatch an incumbent governor! She's a rural mother of five who clings to guns and religion -– exuberantly!

In choosing as his running mate Gov. Sarah Palin of Alaska, two years removed from her only other political job as a small-town mayor, John McCain has certainly offered up a giant-killer -– "Sarah Barracuda," as she's known in the Last Frontier State.

Palin, who has more than a passing resemblance to Tina Fey, took on the kleptocracy of Alaska's Republican politics and won.

First, she ousted hated incumbent Frank Murkowski in a primary two years ago, and then promptly cleaned up his mess in Juneau, even selling his private jet on e-bay. Second, she rejected the "bridge to nowhere," the famous earmark for a span from Ketchikan to an island of 50 people -– further angering the politicians-for-life who have run Alaska for half as long as it's been in the union.

But she has her own ethics concern, the subject of an investigation of whether the governor's office was involved in the firing a state trooper who was in the midst of a nasty divorce from Palin's sister — Troopergate with a bit of Alaska Gothic thrown in. And McCain's selection -– a woman who looks young enough to be his college-age daughter -– makes it hard for Republicans to criticize Barack Obama for his in inexperience. Palin is an inoculation for what may be the biggest rap against Obama. That's a huge risk.

Could Palin take on Putin?

Slaying Frank Murkowski and dueling with Don Young, the pork-loving congressman behind the bridge, is one thing. Both men are old-style hacks, to be kind. But Palin has zero experience on the world stage -– a crucial factor for McCain, who made the announcement on his 72nd birthday. And, just recently, she seemed to have no idea what the job of vice president entails.

"What is it exactly that the vice president does every day?" she asked in an interview on CNBC. A fair question, but one that also reinforces her inexperience.

Her bio is classic Alaska, a state where everyone has a past but it's so far, far away –- "Outside," as Alaskans call the mainland United States. If Cokie Roberts thinks Hawaii is "foreign and exotic," what will she and her other geographically challenged pundits think of Alaska, which has its own time zone?

Palin eloped with her husband, Todd, a commercial fisherman, who later won the 2,000-mile Iron Dog snow machine (as snowmobiles are called in Alaska) race. She gave each of her five children names that sound like her state -– Track, Bristol, Willow, Piper and Trig. She's a self-described "hockey mom," which means something in Minnesota and Colorado, two battleground states.

As a University of Idaho graduate, a television sports reporter, a beauty queen who was Miss Wasilla and competed for Miss Alaska, Palin brings a bit of the "Legally Blonde" aspect to the race -– you underestimate her at your peril, as opponents found in Alaska, and in the movie.

Militantly anti-choice and evangelical, the 44-year-old gave birth to her last child five months ago. (There were complications — the child has Down Syndrome — a point that she brings up in explaining her convictions.) Does she woo women, the disgruntled ex-Hillary supporters? That may be a tougher sell, given that she's bound to back the kind of Supreme Court justices who will remove abortion protections.

And on energy, she could have a debate with her ticket-mate, for Palin favors drilling for oil in the Alaska wildlife refuge, while McCain opposes it -– for now.

Oil has made her state rich, so much so that Palin has asked the legislature this year to give every Alaskan $1,200 as one-time energy relief. But it's also made it ripe for corruption.

Tough, independent, a feisty feminist — that's one image of the Republican pick. But there's also the echo of Dan Quayle.

In Alaska, big dreams come to life quickly. They just as swiftly crash.


Louie, I agree with Kendall. I cannot think of any reason why I would choose to vote GOP for the first time. I hope you will change your mind after learning more about all of the candidates.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 05:46 PM

I have found out exactly who owns her and how long she has been groomed for this job and why. There was no sudden surprise decision.

Her credo: Drill Drill Drill ANW(life)R must be drilled NOW.

Her owners: Big Oil

Her Groomer: Murcdoch and the Wall Street Journal

100 days ago she was contacted to do the Wall Street Journal TV special In Search of Black Gold. It will air September 24th

The anti abortion issue is a feather in McCain's hat. The myth that she is a crack shot hunter is laughable.

Now that you know, listen for her progressively strident position on drilling.



"Obama scares me" she says this a lot
"In a world of hurt!" her favorite phrase and repeated like McCain's says"my friends"


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Peace
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 06:24 PM

No offence: McCain won't be elected.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 06:27 PM

>>If you're a Democrat, can you think of a Republican you'd rather see as Vice President?

McCain is seventy two. I'd like someone with an inkling of an idea of what to do if he can't complete his term. Each person who ran against him in the primaries and Joe Lieberman would be better choices in my opinion.

Has this woman even thought about being President before a few days ago?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 06:31 PM

"I have found out exactly who owns her..." Donuel

NO, Donuel, you have NOT.

Posting that old magazine cover of Palin is counter-productive, to my mind. I think it's a STUPID look; she looks much better now.

The funny thing is that a month or two ago at music I said to the group, You know, I suspect that Governor Palin plans to become President one day.

One musician, in city government, nodded his head. Oh, yeah, he said.

Incidentally, Alaska's corruption has come to light in recent years but I wonder if it may be farther toward cleaning itself up than some other states? When the FBI made that raid on legislative offices and then it came down the pipe that several legislators were arrested and indicted I read a political column which claimed that "this is a sad day for Alaska".

I don't agree at all. Corruption coming to light is a GOOD thing; the sad part of it is that it was happening.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 06:34 PM

Choosing a woman...Smart! Choosing a woman with no national or foreign policy skills, some experience as a suburban mayor, and an anti-abortion pro-NRA stance as well? A very odd choice.
Her conservative stances may woo some right wingers in the Republican Party, but not like Romney would have. And trying to appeal to the sort of anti-sexist bra-burners on Hillary's left edge who would throw votes to McCain out of spite, with this conservative woman? Ann Coulter would have been just as good.

I am thankful for the choice. If you think McC will look like a bumbler in the debates with Obama, how is this woman going to deal with Biden?

This smells like a deal reached by McCain alone and based upon the quandary "how can I rein in the conservatives and retain the unhappy Hillary women? RIGHT! A conservative woman!"
But she's unqualified.
"So what? So is Obama!"
Right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 06:37 PM

Abraham Lincoln of course had no "executuive experience" whatsoever. And he never even managed to get into the Senate. Totally unqualified to be commander-in-chief.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 06:39 PM

>>>What was a bold move, was her mentioning of Hillory Clinton in her speech. I suspect this could back-fire.

She didn't! Did she!!??

I can see the response.

Hillary Clinton: "I am Hillary Clinton! And you're no Hillary Clinton!"

LOLOLOLOL


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 06:49 PM

McGrath, I have seen Abraham Lincoln, and believe me sir, this lady is no Abraham Lincoln.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 06:50 PM

Damn, Jack. Stole my line!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 06:53 PM

You know, if you get the 'L' out of 'Palin', they rhyme: McCain/Pain.

I think maybe they don't have much money and they're trying to save on letters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 06:54 PM

I would normally feel this is a wondrous and gloriously disastrous choice. Biden should cancel out the McCain experience on the one hand and age on the other. Palin and Obama have limited experience and look like all American family types.

What this should mean is that both parties would be stupid to attack the weakness of the other nor should either push too strongly on false strengths. In the end we could actually have two sets of candidtes focusing on the real issues and their solutions to them.

Sadly this is modern American politics and instead we'll hear nothing but sniping, accusations, more lies, and deep,deep, bullshit.

A good friend of mine and I were discussing how the company we sold for had failed to live up to our customer's expectations and what a helluva' mess that put us in. Trying to figure out what to do, he had the best line I ever heard and it makes total sense in describing the current campaiign methods in this country...........

Lie, Deny, and Make Counter Allegations

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 07:01 PM

From the Christian Science Monitor's Vote Blog (comments/columns welcome)in response to an op/ed by George Beach, Alaskan op/ed writer

: P Martin | 08.29.08

As another Alaskan, I have a different view:

McCain just picked a person who won the race for Governor on an anti-corruption message but then herself plays politics with state rules on personnel when she (and her husband and a bunch of her staff) tries to force the firing of her ex-brother-in-law.

McCain, on his 72nd birthday, picks someone who has NO national security knowledge or experience, no NATIONAL experience, and less than two years of state leadership experience. That sure makes me nervous!

Gov Palin is going to be blown out of the water by Senator Biden in terms of knowledge and expertise.


LeeJ, exactly!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: olddude
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 07:04 PM

Actually when all things are said and done, too much is made of experience. I once read experience is a hard teacher, first it gives you the tests, then it gives you the lessons.

I have worked with people who had 20 years of experience, what they actually had was 2 years of experience 10 times over. I have worked with people who had 2 years of experience and were more gifted than those with 20. It depends on the person. I don't like her for this reason:

Ultra conservative: what that means to me is George Bush. Funny how the term conservative really isn't conservative. Throwing out the bill of rights (privacy) starting wars, tax breaks to only the wealthy corporates. I care about her politics. The right wing is the wrong wing and it does not work for a country with so many different people all deserving of good health care and the right to have a decent life for their families. For that, I don't like her or McCain. I respect McCain, but he would never get my vote. A third term of George Bush would cripple this nation


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: kendall
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 07:07 PM

Good old John, he does like younger women. Can't fault him for that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 07:07 PM

Anyone whose decision to not vote for Obama is in anyway shaped by unkind things said about Obama's opponents by his supporters really isn't in a position to vote for McCain, either. If that really is the reason.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Deckman
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 07:20 PM

She is up to her neck in an ethics scandal. When the full details come out, and most importantly the cover-up, I predict she'll have to resign from the race. I can't believe that the background review failed to make McCain realize just how vulnerable she is. This was a HUGE mistake for the republicans. I predict she'll have to resign from the campaign before it's over. Bob(deckman)Nelson

That last comment was from me, Bob Nelson. I wonder why I loose my cookie at the strangest times ... must be a republican trick! Bob(deckman)Nelson


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: bobad
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 08:17 PM

Interesting piece on NPR about someone, using her son's name as ID, spent last night cleaning up her Wikipedia entry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 08:30 PM

I wonder if Michael Palin ever ran into this lady on his travels when he passed through Alaska on his Full Circle journey.

Here is a link to one day he spent in Alaska in his journal of the trip. And here's a taste from it: "On the way back, in a desolate landscape, broken by rickety cabins jacked up on oil-drums and discarded dredge buckets from previous gold mining activities, we stop for a beer at the Safety Bay Inn run by a lady with two-tone vanilla and chocolate-coloured hair. Dollar bills are stuck on the ceiling and the lavatories are marked 'Women' and 'Animals'.

Great journal - and a great documentary series.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: olddude
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 08:32 PM

I lose my cookies if I eat Jell-O


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 09:31 PM

So what do we know about the sister, Molly McCann?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 09:47 PM

Ebbie I have not posted ANY images of Palin.

The ones I have made I will not show here.

Palin used to be against drilling in Anwr
now she is for it.

She first opposed the oil pipeline
now she is for it.

Sometimes you don't have to pay a person money to corrupt them sometimes it is done with an offer of power.

She filmed a Murcdoch dicumentary called In Search of Black GOld last month and will air Sept 34th

In the coming days she will be all about drilling.
She will be all about abortions

Ebbie I am sure she is a fine woman and you would not not like to hear anything contrary.

President Palin can release nuclear missles in 15 minutes.
But she calls them nuckular.


THIS DESERVES CAPS

SENATOR MCCAIN MET WITH PALIN ONLY ONCE...AND THE MEETING LASTED 15 MINUTES.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 09:50 PM

I think she will lose McCain as many men as she will gain him women, especially in the rust belt and in the eastern mountains.

Mooseburgers, Hockey mom, Female basketball player. That's more exotic than Obama. Though she'd be really at home in Newfoundland.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 09:51 PM

24TH

Listen to her for the groomed comments she has been practicing recently.

Idealism is fine but you have to be realistic

Obama scares me

We are in a world of hurt if ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Louie Roy
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 09:59 PM

At the present time I'm just one against 117 in this thread but come November I will be one of many million who will be voting for a winner McCain and Palin Cheers


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 10:21 PM

Sorry to hear that, Louie. I hope you watch with an open mind and change it before election day.:-)

An interesting demonstration of the commonplace of the internet in the political life nowadays:

From the Washington Post

Just hours before McCain declared his veep choice of Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, her Wiki page saw a flurry of activity, with editors adding details about her approval rating and husband's employment. Perhaps more tellingly, some of the same users editing her page were almost simultaneously updating McCain's Wiki entry, adding information dealing with accuracy, sources and footnotes to each.

While Palin was among the least well-known of the potential GOP vice presidential picks - and therefore perhaps the candidate whose Wikipedia page was most in need of updating - her entry saw far more activity than that of Minn. Gov. Tim Pawlenty, probably the next most obscure potential choice.

On August 28, Palin's entry was updated at least 68 times, with at least an additional 54 changes made to her entry over the preceding five days. In contrast, Pawlenty's entry received 54 alterations on the 28th, and just 12 changes during the prior five days.

There appeared to be very little crossover between Wikipedia user accounts editing the Pawlenty and McCain entries, said Terry Gudaitis, director of cyber intelligence for Cyveillance, an Arlington, Va. based Internet monitoring company.


According to This Fellow there have been over 1200 edits to her Wiki page.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 10:23 PM

Yeah, it's my understanding that she's addicted to some ancient superstition or another, but I can't find it on Wikipedia. It must have been one of the things they deleted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 10:28 PM

Donuel, you say a number of unsubstantiated things.

You say: "Palin used to be against drilling in Anwr
now she is for it."

I have never heard of a time that she was not FOR it.

You say: "She first opposed the oil pipeline now she is for it."

You've got it all wrong. The "oil pipeline"? She was not in politics yet at the time of the oil pipeline; she was in her teens at the time.

I expect you are thinking of the natural gas pipeline? And even then, you are wrong. She has not ever been against it, only against the terms that the previous governor had acceded to and with the projected route. It appears that it will take place in the direction and on the terms that she held out for, since she signed AGIA this week.

You say: "Sometimes you don't have to pay a person money to corrupt them sometimes it is done with an offer of power."

True. But first you have to make the case.

You say: "She filmed a Murcdoch dicumentary called In Search of Black GOld last month and will air Sept 34th"

I looked for this documentary and didn't find it. Is it perhaps because the date is wrong?

You say: "In the coming days she will be all about drilling. She will be all about abortions"

She has ALWAYS been about drilling. So far as I know, she has ALWAYS been abortions.

You say: "Ebbie I am sure she is a fine woman and you would not not like to hear anything contrary."

I don't know if she is a fine woman; my only concern is to avoid uninformed but adamant attacks.

You say: "President Palin can release nuclear missles in 15 minutes.
But she calls them nuckular."

Even Jimmy Carter said 'nukular'; it appears that we are not going to break people of the habit.

As for President Palin, I hope it never happens. A mutual friend tells me that Palin's mother is right wing and that Palin is much worse.

As for the "ethics scandal" that has been bruited about, the only potential scandal involving Palin that I know about is the possibility that she gave the OK to staff and/or friends regarding harrassing phone calls on behalf of her sister when her sister's soon to be ex was not fired from his job in a timely manner.

The jury, so to speak, is still out on that. It is being investigated. I have no idea of the facts of the matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 10:28 PM

She said she was against the "bridge to nowhere" and that if Alaska wanted a bridge they could build it themself, but as recently as two years ago, she said she was for it. She indicated that it would be good to push for it while it could be financed by the US taxpayers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 10:34 PM

Then she's flip-flopping. All we have to do is to determine the floor of the church on which she rolled around to beg forgiveness, and we'll be well on our way to uncovering the true nature of Sarah Palin.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 10:38 PM

maybe it had something to do with her and her dad getting up at 3am to hunt moose when she was just a schoolgirl?

Seems she may have left a few messes in the town where she was mayor:

n January 1997, Palin fired the Wasilla police chief and library director. In response, a group of 60 residents calling themselves Concerned Citizens for Wasilla discussed attempting a recall campaign against Palin, but then decided against it.[9] The fired police chief eventually sued Palin on the grounds that he was fired because he supported the campaign of Palin's opponent, but his suit was eventually dismissed when the judge ruled that Palin had the right under state law to fire city employees, even for political reasons

At the end of her mayorship, Palin was behind the construction of the Wasilla Multi-Use Sports Complex, a $15 million multi-use indoor ice arena, as her legacy. However, developer Gary Lundgren acquired the land before Palin could. Without the deed, Palin decided to build the arena there anyway, and attempted to acquire the land through eminent domain, but a federal appeals court ruled in favor of Lundgren. The case is in the process of being resolved in the courts.[13] It will cost Wasilla at least an additional $1.67 million to acquire the land[14] and Wasilla is still attempting to cover the budget shortfall by cutting library services, postponing capital improvement projects, and raising fees.

AL Gore should field this one:

Palin has announced plans to create a new sub-cabinet group of advisors to address climate change and reduce greenhouse gas emissions within Alaska.[29] After she was announced as McCain's presumptive running mate, she stated that she does not believe that climate change is man-made.[30] Which is it, Sarah?

Let's kill all the wildlife and run up the litigation costs:

In 2007, Palin agreed with the Alaska Department of Fish and Game to allow Alaska state biologists to hunt wolves from helicopters as part of a "predator control" program, violating a 35-year federal ban.[41] The program was heavily criticized by Defenders of Wildlife and predator control opponents[41], and prompted California State Representative George Miller to introduce a federal bill making the practice illegal.[41]

Alaskan Republicans had mixed reactions to the news of Palin's selection. State Senate President Lyda Green, a Republican who has often feuded with Palin, remarked, "She's not prepared to be governor. How can she be prepared to be vice president or president?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 10:45 PM

LOL

Sounds like the Bush people. "It's easier to get forgiveness than permission."


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 10:51 PM

"At the present time I'm just one against 117 in this thread but come November I will be one of many million who will be voting for a winner McCain and Palin Cheers "

Of course you will.   Just remember that "many more million" will be voting for Obama and Biden. Cheers!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 10:55 PM

If I was starving, I'd get up at three-o'clock in the morning to shoot a moose. Otherwise, I think I'd just leave the moose alone to do whatever it is that meese do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 10:55 PM

In 2006 while she was running for Governor, Palin was asked: Would you continue state funding for the proposed Knik Arm and Gravina Island bridges?

She said, Yes. I would like to see Alaska's infrastructure projects built sooner rather than later. The window is now--while our congressional delegation is in a strong position to assist.

This blogger says: So she was very much for the bridge and insisted that Alaska had to act quickly—the party of Ted Stevens and Don Young might soon lose its majority, after all.

The blogger explains: By that point, the project was endangered for reasons that had nothing to do with Palin—the bridge had become a national laughingstock, Congress had stripped away the offending earmark, shifting the money back to the state's general fund, and future federal support seemed unlikely.

The blogger continues: True, after Palin was sworn into office that fall, her first budget didn't allocate any money for the bridge. But when the Daily News asked on December 16, 2006, if she now opposed the project, Palin demurred and said she was just trying to figure out where the bridge fit on the state's list of transportation priorities, given the lack of support from Congress."

"Finally, (the blogger says), on September 19, 2007, she decided to redirect funds away from the project altogether with this sorry-sounding statement:

"Ketchikan desires a better way to reach the airport, but the $398 million bridge is not the answer," said Governor Palin. "Despite the work of our congressional delegation, we are about $329 million short of full funding for the bridge project, and it's clear that Congress has little interest in spending any more money on a bridge between Ketchikan and Gravina Island," Governor Palin added. "Much of the public's attitude toward Alaska bridges is based on inaccurate portrayals of the projects here. But we need to focus on what we can do, rather than fight over what has happened."

I can't believe that I'm here defending Governor Palin; I don't even like the woman. But I like even less piling on with little information; it seems to me that Palin's approach to the matter was sequential and logical in its progression.

Regarding the 'bridge to nowhere', I have previously said that it was an unfortunate misnomer, totally misunderstood by the press and therefore by the citizens.

Ketchikan, a town of about 13,000, is on the Alaskan mainland. Its airport was built on an island a couple of stone throws away. In addition to the airport about 50 families live on the island. (I say 50 families rather than "population" because when I worked at the Alaska Division of Elections I believe that Gravina Island had 67 voters).

To get back and forth from the airport one takes a ferry. The last I knew it wss $12.00 one way for a walk-on; $25.00 one way for a vehicle.

A good case could be made for a bridge. The problem was that the projected bridge would have had to be very tall to allow ships to pass beneath and would therefore have been very expensive.

Ketchikan itself voted against it. However, the governor at the time, Frank Murkowski, was pushing it; Murkowski hailed from there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 10:59 PM

Well, we live in a neighborhood that has about 70 families, and we have only one way in and out of the neighborhood. And that one way crosses a railroad track. And trains carry hazardous materials on that track. So if there is ever a hazardous spill involving a train that's blocking our one entrance, we are dead. Maybe we should get the US taxpayers to pay for our second road.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:16 PM

Looks like Palin's people haven't had a chance to edit this Wikipedia page yet...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravina_Island_Bridge

"Governor Sarah Palin also supported the bridge, but canceled it when the Alaska delegation was unable to prevent Alaska from paying for some of the bridge's cost...

...The ferry, which costs US$5 per person and US$6 per vehicle (one way),[5] runs to the island every 30 minutes for most of the year. During the peak tourist season (May–September), a ferry runs every 15 minutes.

According to USA Today, the bridge was to have been nearly as long as the Golden Gate Bridge and taller than the Brooklyn Bridge.[6] The bridge would cross the Tongass Narrows, part of the Alaska's Inside Passage, so the bridge was designed to be tall enough to accommodate ship traffic, including the Alaska Marine Highway and the cruise ships which frequent Alaskan waters during the summer.

Statistics show that Ketchikan's airport is the second largest in Southeast Alaska after Juneau International Airport, accommodating over 200,000 passengers a year, while the ferry shuttles approximately a half million people in the same time period (as of December 2006).[7] The Golden Gate Bridge carried an average of 118,000 vehicles each day in 2006.[8]

In October 2005, Republican Senator Ted Stevens of Alaska became the object of strong media criticism when he opposed diverting the Gravina and Knik Arm Bridge funds to help aid recovery from Hurricane Katrina.[9] In his speech on the Senate floor, Stevens threatened to quit Congress if the funds were removed from his state.[10]

Congress dropped the specific allocation for the two bridges, but the amount of money appropriated to Alaska remained unchanged. In August 2007, Alaska's DOT stated that it was "leaning" toward alternative ferry options, citing bridge costs, despite having already received the funds from the federal government.[11] Although the project and its excessive spending was initially supported by Alaska governor & 2008 Republican Vice Presidential nominee Sarah Palin, she later reversed her position and canceled it on September 21, 2007.[2]

The project was canceled on September 21, 2007 by Alaska governor Sarah Palin because the federal government would not pay for all of it"


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:28 PM

Our bridge would cost about 4 million, 1 percent of the cost of the bridge to 67 people. It pays to live in Alaska, Our Senators and Governor have to represent 8 million people. The pork doesn't go so far. :-)

Ebbie, If what you just posted by that blogger is in any way true, Palin lied today to her first national audience, when she could just as easily have just left the reference to the "bridge to nowhere" out of the speech. That's not a great start. With here degree in journalism, one wonders why she did not know better. Did she think no one would look at her record?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:48 PM

I read that Obama supported the Bridge to Nowhere. Not true?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:48 PM

According to this article in the Christian Science Monitor...

"In the political parlaying, critics claim that Alaska - large in land, small in citizen numbers, and fifth in transportation dollars - wields disproportionate clout. This year, it could win twice as much highway money as New Jersey. Beyond transportation, Alaska receives seven federal dollars for each tax dollar sent to the US Treasury."


This is kind of interesting, too, from the same article...

"One impetus, rarely mentioned, is that the bridge would create an easy route for timber companies to log Pacific rain forest."


http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0615/p02s01-uspo.html


The stuff in the blog was copy pasted by the blogger from The New Republic


In this part...

"The window is now--while our congressional delegation is in a strong position to assist."

...what she is saying is that the Alaska congressional delegation can help Alaska get a lot of money from the US taxpayers, so the state of Alaska better do everything it can to help get the bridges built before the window of opportunity closes on the more than a billion (total costs) dollars that the congressional delegation was working hard to pry loose from the US taxpayers for the two bridges in question.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:52 PM

Palin's Sister. The Billy of the McCain Campaign?



A


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:56 PM

The only references I have been able to find saying that Obama voted for the Gravina Island bridges is in posts to internet forms like this one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 12:18 AM

Heric.

I am sure that the bridge was funded as an earmark. Its possible Obama voted for the bill it was attached to. Its very unlikely he actively supported it. Its possible that he did not know that the bridge was in the bill. That system is one of the things that he is saying he is trying to change. But I don't think that he ever intended to fight that battle bill by bill.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 12:39 AM

I read it in last week's Economist. (I caught that Carol.) JtS probably has it right. But then I also read he used them to great advantage, e.g. >250K to that white preacher who caused such a fuss at Wright's church with the Hilary slam.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 12:50 AM

For those that can watch MSNBC.com

David Schuster has a panel discussion about Wooten-Gate

Check out the Republican hack who is trying to defend McCain's pick and attack the Democrats.

Look how miserable she looks as Roy Seacoff summarizes Palin's difficulty at the end. It looks to me as if she wants to puke and drink a tall scotch at the same time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 01:14 AM

What I said about the forums wasn't a barb, by the way. I did find two mentions about it in a couple of forums. Here's one of them...

http://vnboards.ign.com/outpost/b22180/108401618/p1/


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 01:37 AM

Louie, somehow I just don't see your kind, gentlemanly ways going along with things McCain has done/said, such as:

But despite his penchant for a little not-so-gentle ribbing, McCain doesn't cope very well on the receiving end. During his 1992 Senate campaign, a little inter-spousal teasing got out of control when, in front of aides and three reporters, his wife Cindy playfully twirled his hair and noted that he was thinning a little on top. His reply? "At least I don't plaster make-up on like a trollop, you c**t."

and

The Chelsea Clinton joke. At a Senate Republican fundraiser in 1998, when Chelsea was just 18, he took aim at both her appearance and that of the then attorney-general . "Why is Chelsea Clinton so ugly?" he asked guests. "Because her father is Janet Reno."

Is that really someone you want to support?

There's more where those came from and they are direct quotes.

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 01:43 AM

"At least I don't plaster make-up on like a trollop, you c**t."

Heh. There's family values for you.


On the subject of Obama and the bridge, he's not campaigning on having opposed the bridge as Sarah Palin is. She is campaigning on opposing pork barrel spending and she is using the bridge as an example. That is what makes it noteworthy for the purpose of this discussion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 01:57 AM

Popular... Democratic Party views on Palin.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 02:07 AM

Pat Buchanan, a conservative who twice sought the Republican nomination in the 1990s, said: "This is the biggest political gamble I have ever seen. She is enormously exciting but if, God forbid, something happens, can she be president?"

from here

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article4636745.ece


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 02:09 AM

Good grief. We have met the enemy and s/he is us!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 02:21 AM

Apparently she is just a little more articulate than W.

Sarah Palin in her own words.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 02:26 AM

Palin's own words.

It was the wrong link previously.

This woman is going to make the Republicans hunt for Quayle.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 02:39 AM

Bill Krystol predicted this two months ago.

As he lied about energy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 02:51 AM

Naughty Librarian


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 02:57 AM

Well, I'm still unconvinced about all the muck that has been dug up on Sarah Palin in the last 24 hours. I guess muckraking is the name of the game, but the only real question brought up is this very muddy thing about her brother-in-law. I'd like to wait for the truth, instead of trying to sort through a lot of speculative half-truths.

I know I'm going to hate myself for bringing this up, but the LAST Vice President we had who was young, pretty, and Republican was...Dan Quayle.

I think it's easy to see, though, that Sarah Palin will make a better Vice President than Dick Cheney, Dan Quayle, Spiro Agnew, or Dick Nixon.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Barry Finn
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 04:30 AM

The fact that she'd even consider the bridges at 400 mil which could blow up to 2 bil, is not the logic of a potential Prez.

I could drag Nantucket & Martha's Vinyard to the mainland with their airports in tow & still have a bil or so left over to spend on the New York Judies. What was she gonna do when the bridges were finnally finished? Fish for whales off them as part of the new catch & release program? Maybe she should consider a new airport closer to a larger population & closer to dry land.

Better yet, maybe Senator Kennedy can get on with a new Transport bill to overshadow the "Big Dig". We'll call it the "Big Swim". a bridge to both the afore mentioned islands in Nantucket Sound then another on to link the 2 islands together. It'll save us on ferry costs, course we might lose out with the high cost of auto fuel. Maybe that'll be covered by "Palin's Pipeline" after ANWR's pushed through & pumping in, say another 2 decades or so.

She doesn't sound all that bright.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: SharonA
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 04:45 AM

Palin's wide-eyed, vapid look reminds me, disturbingly, of Monica Lewinsky's. Conpare the female face in this infamous picture to the corresponding expression of the female in the pic leading this article.

...or compare this embrace to that one...

this happy couple to that one...

this black-and-white modeling photo to that one... they look like they could be sisters!

*shiver*


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Barry Finn
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 04:57 AM

Sharon, those comparisons were a bit cheap



but so's this




Does McCain smoke cigars?


Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 05:04 AM

Well, Barry, I took an Alaska Air flight into Ketchikan in a December blizzard. It doesn't look like the city has a whole lot of room for an airport. It's a small town of about 8,000 people, with scads of summer tourists. The only way to get there is by air or by boat. So, they built the airport on an island across from town, and get to the airport by boat. Not bad most of the year, but a killer during tourist season.
So, the bridge wasn't totally absurd. And what can you buy for $398 million nowadays, anyhow? A medium-sized shopping mall? Half a bomber?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: SharonA
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 06:14 AM

Barry, I didn't mean for the comparisons to be "cheap". I never saw a picture of Palin before last evening, and honestly, my very first impression of the very first pic of her with McCain was, "Gee, that looks a lot like that old picture of Monica looking at Clinton with doe eyes." The more pix of Palin I see, the more I see a similarity in the shape of the face, the bangs of the hair, the eyes, the nose and, yes, the mouth.

Oddly, there's also a similarity in the age difference: Lewinsky is 27 years younger than Clinton, and Palin is 27-and-a-half years younger than McCain.

I'm not saying that this means Palin is doing anything unseemly; it's just a coincidence. But I'm sure I'm not the only one who's noticed it, and I suspect that political cartoonists and YouTube animators are going to have a field day with it!

Another coincidence they'll not fail to notice is that Palin was a beauty queen in her youth, just as McCain's wife Cindy was. (McCain's first wife was a swimsuit model.) It ties in with McCain's reputation as a wolf with an eye for tall, slim, attractive and ever-younger women. As he spends time campaigning with Palin, rumors with fly that his marriage to Cindy is on the rocks and that she's jealous of his attentions toward Palin and that those attentions are unprofessional and that the only reason the inexperienced-in-national-and-world-affairs Palin was chosen was because McCain had another sort of affair in mind, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

McCain can't possibly win with Palin as his running mate. Even if she's not confirmed at the convention and it turns out that picking a woman was just an empty gesture, he's just proven that he can't pick a team wisely, and he's disproven his contention that his team has stronger leadership experience than Obama's. If it had to be a woman, there are several female Republicans with greater maturity and far more impressive resumes from whom he could have chosen. For instance, if he wanted to attract female voters, moderates, environmentalists and the Northeast Corridor vote, he could have asked former New Jersey governor Christine Todd Whitman, who is 8 years older than his wife. But noooooo. Right now, McCain really does look like a dirty old man.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 09:23 AM

I will leave the analysis of qualifications, and vaginas to others. But I want you to mark this one down, and remember I predicted it. By the end of the campaign, she will be seen as a liability due to her making comments that were not well thought out, or that were not approved by her boss. I predict major gaffes. She will surprise some folks with her skills, as one does not rise to her level of popularity amongst her constituents without considerable skills. But her complete lack of exposure/inexperience to/with the beltway media crowd, and their ability to search out inconsistencies and mine them for controversy, will cause her to lash out. Wait and see.

She will start out great guns, but will go down in flames, IMHO.

All the best,

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 09:26 AM

Ebbie, everything I said was true
but if I may add, you also followed the pack and repeated that Palin was against the bridge to the airport/nowhere, which Joe Offer eloquently made crystal clear was not entirely un needed, BUT
it turns out that Palin was for the bridge until political expediency changed her mind.

yes I corrected the date typo immediately but it went un noticed.

You know a young politician is seldom about unswerving loyalty to a position, it is about who wants what and how. The politician learns to compromise and change positions pretty darn fast and lie about it.

In Conclusion if you like strawberry ice cream I will not try to talk you our of it. But if you order Unranium ice cream I am going to say something.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 10:09 AM

The pictures being circulated with Sarah Palin holding and supposedly shooting an M16 rifle are real, but it is also the first time she ever held one in her life. It was being demonstrated to her for photo op purposes by some very wary Guard instructors.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 10:14 AM

The Sarah Palin TV special.

CNBC Sept 24 08 'In Search of Black Gold'
8 ET

A Wall Street Journal / Murcoch production


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 10:19 AM

I Youtubed her last night. Its my opinion that picking her was McCain's ultimate sellout to big oil. If she gets in the White House, we are going to Miss Bush Cheney.

Sorry to disagree Joe, But I think that she would be the worst VP choice ever. I pray she won't be elected because I do not want to find out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 10:33 AM

But see, Donuel, you are skittering all over the pond.

What about the TV special, In Search of Black Gold? What about it? Will it show some nefarious scheme of Palin's? Everybody already knows that she is gungho for development.

(I thought that 'Murcoch' was a typo for Murdoch until you spelt it that way twice. >>><<<< I went back just now and see that perhaps you do mean Murdoch, as in Rupert, since you mentioned the Wall Street Journal and 'Murcdoch'.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 10:58 AM

Pailin is a useful choice for McKain who is increasingly desperate to get some media attention, and the fact that this pick is a surprising one insures such attention. And credit to Obama and Biden for not rising to the bait and dishing her as soon as she was announced, unlike some of the rest of us.

That being said I find her references to Geraldine Ferrario and Hillary Clinton disingenuous, given her denial of any sexual barriers to her own rise to power; she says that she did it on her own and in the face of Republican leadership opposition. She is evidently a crusader and outsider, and that may play well to reinforce McKain's image as a political maverick. However, McKain has hardly been a political maverick in his Presidential Campaign, or in his 90% voting record in support of the failed Bush Administration.

Palin will also reinforce McKain's ties to fundamentalist Republicans and independents; she's a poster child for them! But I fail to see how she helps him reach out for the majority of votes he'll need to win the Presidential race.

Pailin doesn't do a thing to help address the economic crisis which is facing this nation, nor does she bring any experience whatsoever to address international issues. She has challenged the Big Oil lobby in Alaska, but only to bid for a bigger share of their profits. She has little environmental concern about accelerated development of oil drilling and new pipeline construction in this fragile environment.

But I still say it's a good pick for McKain in the short run for refocusing media attention away from a very successful Democratic Convention to the Republican Convention. Now if he will only invite GWB to do the keynote address, his victory would be cemented!

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Stringsinger
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 11:35 AM

Ron, I humbly disagree with you. Palin is no centrist. She would abolish Roe v. Wade.
She embraces a fundamentalist Christianity and is in concert with McCain's corporate vision of America. You wouldn't call McCain a centrist would you? She has built an Alaskan bridge to nowhere with Stevens and now is flip-flopping on that issue.

Sorry Ron, I bet to differ.

She is also shriller than Shrillary.

It's unfortunate that she pretends to speak for women when she supports so many issues that are inimical to women's health and reproductive rights.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 11:50 AM

my disturbing cartoon


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: olddude
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 12:01 PM

Murdoch? Bruce did not buy those ad's I know he didn't he doesn't like Bush number III. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 12:04 PM

but he loves BIG OIL

Cash in with Palin
Big Oil all the way


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: olddude
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 12:09 PM

OMG
all this time Bruce, a closet Oil guzzler :-) who would have known


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: olddude
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 12:16 PM

When asked what are the duties of the VP her response
"I can't answer that question until someone answers for me what is it exactly that the Vice President does."

Now that sums it up ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 12:27 PM

That quote about plastering on the make-up is extraordinary - it really does, on its own, suggest more than just loose screw. Googling it is a bit strange. It arises from a book called The Real McCain by someone named Cliff Schecter. This book, and especially the comment, is almost non-existent in mainstream media book reviews or news, while being very widely quoted in left wing blogs. It's not on snopes.

The only mainstream review I found was in the Guardian, which says this:

"The list of worrying incidents is long. In 1995 he ended up almost physically scuffling with aged Senator Strom Thurmond on the Senate floor. And, according to some accounts, in 2006 he had a fight with Arizona congressman Rick Renzi, throwing blows in a scrap whose details have only recently been detailed in Schecter's book. Schecter unearthed another unpleasant incident from 1992 in which McCain, tired after a long day's campaign, reacted badly to his wife Cindy teasing him about his baldness. 'At least I don't plaster on the make-up like a trollop, you cunt,' McCain snapped in front of eyewitnesses. Schecter says he has three sources for the story. McCain's campaign have denied it."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/22/johnmccain.uselections2008

Not sure what to make of it.

(Not sure wht his punches would look like given that he can't raise his arms.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 12:34 PM

way to go Heric, I was wondering about temper


COUNTRY FIRST
MIDDLE CLASS LAST

PRO LIFE
PRO WAR

CASH IN
WITH PALIN

DRIL DRILL DIRLL
ALL THE WAY
TO CAPITOL HILL


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: olddude
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 12:39 PM

It just goes to prove the age old saying

"beauty is only skin deep ... stupid goes right to the soul"


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 12:52 PM

If the posts about Palin being the champion of big oil are correct, and Hurrican Gustov raises the pric of oil, the American public will be out in droves to support her.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 01:10 PM

I shouldn't have but I did http://usera.imagecave.com/donuel/don1/legally.jpg


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 01:18 PM

I think the thing that surprises me most about McCain picking her is how much she looks like Keith Olbermann.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 01:58 PM

The Times Online isn't exactly a left-wing blog. Here's what it had about that "plastering on the make-up" bit, along with the rest of "John McCain's ten worst jokes".


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 02:13 PM

This McGrath?

In bad taste: John McCain's ten worst jokes


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 02:26 PM

Choosing Palin, IMHO, is a gimmick. And I think it will backfire on McCain, beginning with the claims of "inexperience" he has thrown at Obama. Already she has made major gaffes, as Mick predicted, in not being able to describe the duties of the VP.

Palin: "[A]s for that V.P. talk all the time, I'll tell you, I still can't answer that question until somebody answers for me what is it exactly that the V.P. does every day?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 02:26 PM

LOL

I just noticed that Gravina Island doesn't have any roads from the homes of the families who live there to the airport or anywhere else on the island. I guess that means people take their boats to get wherever they want to go. So if they built a bridge for the benefit of those families, the families would have to take their boat to get to the bridge. Then I guess they would have to walk over the bridge to get to the mainland.

Makes sense to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 02:33 PM

Bridge to nowhere, Bridge to an airport already well serviced by ferry. Same dif?

Toronto's down town airport is on an Island, only connected by ferry. I'll wager that Toronto Island airport is a lot busier than Gravina Island's airport. But they get by.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 02:39 PM

From MoveOn:

"Who is Sarah Palin? Here's some basic background:

She was elected Alaska's governor a little over a year and a half ago. Her previous office was mayor of Wasilla, a small town outside Anchorage. She has no foreign policy experience.1

Palin is strongly anti-choice, opposing abortion even in the case of rape or incest.2

She supported right-wing extremist Pat Buchanan for president in 2000. 3

Palin thinks creationism should be taught in public schools.4

She's doesn't think humans are the cause of climate change.5

She's solidly in line with John McCain's "Big Oil first" energy policy. She's pushed hard for more oil drilling and says renewables won't be ready for years. She also sued the Bush administration for listing polar bears as an endangered species—she was worried it would interfere with more oil drilling in Alaska.6
How closely did John McCain vet this choice? He met Sarah Palin once at a meeting. They spoke a second time, last Sunday, when he called her about being vice-president. Then he offered her the position.7


This is information the American people need to see. Please take a moment to forward this email to your friends and family.

We also asked Alaska MoveOn members what the rest of us should know about their governor. The response was striking. Here's a sample:

She is really just a mayor from a small town outside Anchorage who has been a governor for only 1.5 years, and has ZERO national and international experience. I shudder to think that she could be the person taking that 3AM call on the White House hotline, and the one who could potentially be charged with leading the US in the volatile international scene that exists today. —Rose M., Fairbanks, AK

She is VERY, VERY conservative, and far from perfect. She's a hunter and fisherwoman, but votes against the environment again and again. She ran on ethics reform, but is currently under investigation for several charges involving hiring and firing of state officials. She has NO experience beyond Alaska. —Christine B., Denali Park, AK

As an Alaskan and a feminist, I am beyond words at this announcement. Palin is not a feminist, and she is not the reformer she claims to be. —Karen L., Anchorage, AK

Alaskans, collectively, are just as stunned as the rest of the nation. She is doing well running our State, but is totally inexperienced on the national level, and very much unequipped to run the nation, if it came to that. She is as far right as one can get, which has already been communicated on the news. In our office of thirty employees (dems, republicans, and nonpartisans), not one person feels she is ready for the V.P. position.—Sherry C., Anchorage, AK

She's vehemently anti-choice and doesn't care about protecting our natural resources, even though she has worked as a fisherman. McCain chose her to pick up the Hillary voters, but Palin is no Hillary. —Marina L., Juneau, AK

I think she's far too inexperienced to be in this position. I'm all for a woman in the White House, but not one who hasn't done anything to deserve it. There are far many other women who have worked their way up and have much more experience that would have been better choices. This is a patronizing decision on John McCain's part- and insulting to females everywhere that he would assume he'll get our vote by putting "A Woman" in that position.—Jennifer M., Anchorage, AK

So Governor Palin is a staunch anti-choice religious conservative. She's a global warming denier who shares John McCain's commitment to Big Oil. And she's dramatically inexperienced.

In picking Sarah Palin, John McCain has made the religious right very happy. And he's made a very dangerous decision for our country.

In the next few days, many Americans will be wondering what McCain's vice-presidential choice means."

Sources:

1. "Sarah Palin," Wikipedia, Accessed August 29, 2008
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Palin

2. "McCain Selects Anti-Choice Sarah Palin as Running Mate," NARAL Pro-Choice America, August 29, 2008
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=17515&id=13660-137503-sUmWCCx&t=1

3. "Sarah Palin, Buchananite," The Nation, August 29, 2008
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=17736&id=13660-137503-sUmWCCx&t=2

4. "'Creation science' enters the race," Anchorage Daily News, October 27, 2006
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=17737&id=13660-137503-sUmWCCx&t=3

5. "Palin buys climate denial PR spin—ignores science," Huffington Post, August 29, 2008
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=17517&id=13660-137503-sUmWCCx&t=4

6. "McCain VP Pick Completes Shift to Bush Energy Policy," Sierra Club, August 29, 2008
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=17518&id=13660-137503-sUmWCCx&t=5

"Choice of Palin Promises Failed Energy Policies of the Past," League of Conservation Voters, August 29, 2008
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=17519&id=13660-137503-sUmWCCx&t=6

"Protecting polar bears gets in way of drilling for oil, says governor," The Times of London, May 23, 2008
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=17520&id=13660-137503-sUmWCCx&t=7

7 "McCain met Palin once before yesterday," MSNBC, August 29, 2008
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=21119&id=13660-137503-sUmWCCx&t=8


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: olddude
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 02:41 PM

I just talked to my republican neighbor. He brought the subject up not me. I said listen do you really think really think this person is qualified to have their finger on the nuke button that could end the entire world giving something happens and she takes charge. Honest to God this is the response I got and he was dead serious:

Obama has been in the senate 4 years and has been out campaigning most of that time, so why would you trust Obama for having a finger on the button?

She is a member of the NRA, so I would trust someone who has fired weapons before!


I am speechless, how do you argue that point. It is so amazing his brain can actually move his feet. Sorry but that is true .. Good Grief


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 02:41 PM

The Times said "in front of aides and three reporters." But Schecter is the only one to make the allegation (and he wasn't there.) McCain campaign says "never happened." Schecter claims to have three sources, apparently unidentified. So what about the three reporters, and most news organizations' refusal to acknowledge it?

Just a little bit not quite right. I'm not saying it didn't happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 02:49 PM

What does a Vice President do has been a question as long as I have been alive. I kind of like her candor on that point. Does seem a disastrous choice, though. The red county rednecks are going to keep the white house or not, without much help from sane people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 02:56 PM

What would happen if McCain dropped dead between the end of the Republican Convention and the election? Would Sarah Palin automatically be the Republican Candidate?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 03:06 PM

The standard answer to that question usually is, tongue in cheek, "To inquire each day on the health of the president."
She could have used that old line. But, she continued to say, "We want to make sure that that V.P .slot would be a fruitful type of position, especially for Alaskans and for the things that we're trying to accomplish up here..."
That statement clearly shows her head is at the level of state of Alaska issues, not international and national issues. She is completely inappropriate for the position of vice president. I've been listening to the republican interviews about Palin today on CNN and MSNBC. It is clearly a stretch for them to be defending this choice. The last one I just heard was trying to defend the pick by saying she had been a mayor for a long time and had to handle Alaska's National Guard. PLEEEZE ... give us a break. This would be funny if it wasn't being taken seriously by the GOP.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: olddude
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 03:07 PM

I told my neighbor that I always thought hunting whitetail or Moose with a nuke was not very sporting. And the NRA course I took many years ago my instructor shamelessly left out the portion on Nuke safety


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 03:15 PM

Like a Hail Mary Pass, this v.p. pick was done in Desperation, article in Newsweek:
she's going to belly-flop at a time when McCain can least afford it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 03:19 PM

There is no comparison.

Obama claims to have been doing public service for twenty five years. He has obviously been preparing for the presidency for much of that time.

She says that she prepared to be a sportscaster and fell into public service at the PTA. When she talks about the office she is pursuing she talks about what she can do for Alaska, which puts her on the same moral ground as Ted Stevens.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 03:27 PM

"Happy birthday, Johnny Mac! You're 72 now, a cancer survivor, and a presidential candidate who has said on many occasions that the most important criteria for picking a vice president is whether he or she could immediately step in if something happened to the president. Your campaign against Barack Obama is based on the simple idea that he is unready to be president. So you've picked a running mate who a year and a half ago was the mayor of Wasilla, Alaska, a town of 8,500 people. You've selected a potential leader of the free world who knows little or nothing about the major issues of the day beyond energy. Oh, and she's being probed in her state for lying and abuse of power."

(Alice's Newsweek link above)


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 03:28 PM

We want to make sure that that V.P .slot would be a fruitful type of position, especially for Alaskans and for the things that we're trying to accomplish up here

Apparently McCain hasn't yet given her the memo about "Country First".


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 03:30 PM

" . . . backs the teaching of creationism in public schools [and is opposed] to abortion even in the case of rape and incest."

Good Sweet Jesus. . . . What a crazy-assed country. . . . Mayor of a town of 8,000? Howard Dean has more experience than her.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 03:37 PM

"As recently as last month, Ms. Palin appeared to dismiss the importance of the vice presidency in an interview with Larry Kudlow of CNBC, who asked her about her prospects for the job.

"I still can't answer that question until somebody answers for me, what is it exactly that the V.P. does every day?" Ms. Palin told Mr. Kudlow. "I'm used to being very productive and working real hard."" (NYT)

Did anyone ask her to name the present VP? Or to describe the machinations for which he has been responsible?


Jaysus Christ. Wodda maroon.



A


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 03:37 PM

I disagree that she is knowledgeable about energy. She is an advocate for energy exploitation that puts money in the Alaska coffers, but her ideas about energy and climate change are anti-science.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 03:46 PM

McCain Gets $7 Million Bounce from Palin Pick

Sen. John McCain has taken in $7 million in contributions since announcing Gov. Sarah Palin as his running mate, a top campaign aide said today.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/08/30/mccain_gets_7_million_bounce_f.html


aaaarghhhhh. I'm falling to the floor. . . . . . Man down!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 03:55 PM

I wonder how much of that $7 Mil was from people who donated in desperation hoping to save the GOP in spite of this risky pick. The interview I just heard asking her if she was comfortable in being a heartbeat away from the presidency, she said "Yup, yup."


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 04:23 PM

JtS predicted last night that the oil companies (and their minions) will be throwing McCain's candidacy a lot more money now that Palin is his running mate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 05:15 PM

RCP Average        08/18 - 08/29        --        47.7        43.8        Obama +3.9
Gallup Tracking        08/27 - 08/29        2709 RV        49        41        Obama +8
Rasmussen Tracking        08/27 - 08/29        3000 LV        49        45        Obama +4
CNN        08/23 - 08/24        909 RV        47        47        Tie
USA Today/Gallup        08/21 - 08/23        765 LV        48        45        Obama +3
Hotline/FD        08/18 - 08/24        1022 RV        44        40        Obama +4
ABC News/Wash Post        08/19 - 08/22        LV        49        45        Obama +4


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 05:17 PM

Newsweek agrees with Big Mick about her.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 05:18 PM

From that article, I see others have the same concern I do:

The balance between work and family, always a ticklish issue, will be brought into bold relief by the fact that the Palins' fifth child, Trig, was born with Down syndrome in April. Todd Palin, a commercial fisherman, may shoulder the bulk of the child-rearing duties in their family. But many voters will nonetheless wonder whether Palin should undertake the rigors of the vice presidency (and perhaps the presidency) while caring for a disabled infant. The subject will no doubt arise on "Oprah" and in other venues.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 05:31 PM

The sentence that jumped out for me was:

"The last governor chosen for vice president was Spiro Agnew in 1968."


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 05:40 PM

I already posted that Newsweek article link, Kat. I guess it jumped out at a lot of us. I was listening to the article's author on CNN when I searched and found the link.

Here is a comment I found on the NYT web site.

This should not go unreported:

"no one brought up the fact that she, in front of a worldwide audience, broke Operational Security the Military prides itself on. She announced the MOS of her son serving in the Army, and went on to say the exact date and the country her son's unit will deploy too. She has not only endangered the life of her son, but all the other soldiers in his unit. Senator John McCain never talked about his own son's service for that very reason. I think it shows the lack of Judgment on the part of McCain's Camp to not screen her speech and shows her own inexperience on the National Stage. For a candidate who prides himself on National Security his Vice Presidential choice just blew that argument out of the water. So why are we not talking about this issue?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 05:41 PM

Sorry, Alice, thanks and thanks for the MOS comment!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 06:01 PM

From an Alaskan blog discussing Palin, "to say something nice about Palin, I bet she is a better shot than Cheney".


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 06:08 PM

Here's a link to the Dan Quayle Center and Museum


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 06:18 PM

From the Fairbanks Daily News - Miner

Palin unqualified to serve as vice president

quote in part:

"Sarah Palin's chief qualification for being elected governor of Alaska was that she was not Frank Murkowski.

She did not win because of her conservative credentials, her grasp of policy details or because of her track record as the mayor of Wasilla, an office she won in 1996 by collecting 617 votes.

Perhaps the strangest claim repeated endlessly on the news channels is that she has proven she can cut taxes and reduce the size of government in Alaska. She may have cut taxes as mayor of Wasilla, but that's not the same as cutting taxes as governor of Alaska, where there is no state income tax or sales tax to cut."


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 06:35 PM

man still down


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Art Thieme
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 07:12 PM

WE THE PEOPLE will be left to deal with it, however it plays out.

That's the rub. Let us hope that it won't be a GRIND, instead, after all is said and done.

As one who is now elderly, disabled and unable to ply my trade, I do think about it, but not too often. The proverbial glass is more than half full----- possibly because I just threw up in it!

Onward and upward to all,

Art


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 07:30 PM

Alice I hopw she is a better shot than Cheney too

see... http://usera.imagecave.com/donuel/don/palin_art2.jpg


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: pdq
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 07:40 PM

Geraldine Ferraro, calling Barack Obama "sexist," may not back him

Might fully one-third of the six surviving Democratic vice presidential nominees end up opposing their party's national ticket this November?

That possibility arose today based on comments Geraldine Ferraro, the 1984 Democratic veep candidate, made to The New York Times.

Sen. Joe Lieberman, who occupied the No. 2 slot for the Democrats in 2000, months ago declared for presumptive Republican White House nominee John McCain.

And Ferraro, a staunch Hillary Clinton supporter who sparked a brouhaha earlier this year over whether she made a racially dismissive remark about Barack Obama, apparently is no longer a reliable Democratic vote.

Ferraro, in the NYT story, terms Obama "terribly sexist." And, as a result, she says she may not be able to cast her ballot for him if, as anticipated, he gains the Democratic presidential nod.

On the positive side for Democrats, no signs of apostasy are emanating from the four other one-time party veep candidates still alive -- John Edwards (the '04 nominee who officially signed on with Obama last week), Al Gore (the nominee in 1992 and '96), Walter Mondale (the 1976 and 1980 nominee) and Sargent Shriver (George McGovern's running mate in 1972 -- they may have gotten trounced by the GOP's Richard Nixon/Spiro Agnew pairing, but their longevity is impressive).

-- Don Frederick


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 07:46 PM

I've found there are already a number of groups on Facebook against the Sarah Palin vp choice... like "Sarah Palin is NOT Hillary Clinton".


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 07:54 PM

"As mayor of Wasilia, Palin built - as her legacy - a $15 million multi-use indoor ice arena on land that did not belong to the city. It will cost Wasilla at least an additional $1.67 million to acquire the land which the town is attempting to pay for by cutting library services, postponing capital improvement projects, and raising fees."

click


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Maryrrf
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 10:10 PM

I'm still in shock about Sarah Palin being chosen as the vice-presidential candidate - but glad because I think this mistake will cost the republicans dearly. Tonight I went out to dinner with three people who had told me earlier they were planning to vote for McCain. They've changed their minds since he picked Sarah Palin as his running mate. I hope that's an indication of what's to come.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 10:31 PM

Now that I've read more about her and this choice of Palin has really sunk in, I am feeling insulted and angry that McCain would be so irresponsible as to place a person like this in a position of being second in line in this country if he wins.
Coincidentally while researching her background, I've been listening to an in-depth report by CNN of both McCain and Obama's background. They've finished McCain and are in the bio of Obama now. As someone who was nationally recognized while he was still in Harvard Law School, I'm looking at the thin resume of Palin in comparison to Obama, and I'm thinking... how the heck could McCain ever do this to the country?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 11:03 PM

"She supported right-wing extremist Pat Buchanan for president in 2000. 3"

      MoveOn.org has a very serious credibility problem, but if they're right about her support of Pat Buchanan, she's my kind of girl.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 11:10 PM

"'Sarah Palin's chief qualification for being elected governor of Alaska was that she was not Frank Murkowski.'"


                And her chief qualification for serving in the White House is, she's not Barack Obama.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 11:39 PM

I pretty much spoke what I needed to say about this VP candidate yesterday, but I find the presence of a thread about her choices in having her last child and the quote from an article that Kat cut and pasted troubling:

    The balance between work and family, always a ticklish issue, will be brought into bold relief by the fact that the Palins' fifth child, Trig, was born with Down syndrome in April. Todd Palin, a commercial fisherman, may shoulder the bulk of the child-rearing duties in their family. But many voters will nonetheless wonder whether Palin should undertake the rigors of the vice presidency (and perhaps the presidency) while caring for a disabled infant. The subject will no doubt arise on "Oprah" and in other venues.


This is where the line needs to be drawn. Speculation about who cares for her children, or if she should work outside the home when she has a child with Down Syndrome, those are questions it's illegal for an employer to ask an applicant. Even as a public figure, these are her private choices to make. I think she'd be a stinker of a VP, but I draw the line at this kind of speculation. It's totally out of line.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Barry Finn
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 01:21 AM

"She is one of the most popular public executives in the U.S"

I know of nobody who knew of her until now, course I'm in the Northeast.
But then as others have said she's no Hillary & in fact she's no Kerry or Kennedy either. "Popular" she was unknown except maybe in the local sports world but that goes for the local weatherman too, maybe he should give the job a go.


"worked as a sports reporter". She'll do just fine as an anchor, she'll drag McCain to the bottom.

Being a reporter, that's not a lot to go on, please, can we get serious here.

As to debating, destroying?
Do you think she'll hold her own debating Biden?


Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: mg
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 01:43 AM

I had heard of her for months. I can't believe these big wigs and senators etc. who ae saying they never heard of her. I don't think she is qualified for VP but as a person she is very impressive. Maybe we could invite her to Fisher Poets. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: mg
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 02:58 AM

About the baby..unless he has heart problems, which sometimes they (Down Syndrome and I think Down's Syndrome, which we have always said should be OK but I will go along with it..do we say Sjogren Syndrome. No we say Sjogren's syndrome. Lots of syndromes have apostrophes. Oh well.) Anyway, I don't know that he would require extra special care above and beyond what any infant would need. I am sure she will get any special enrichment activities he needs. I would prefer women and men with very small children not be vp or p but she probably won't win. Her little girl might be another story. I don't know. They do have a father who can take them on snowmobile rides. Or out on boat rides..mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: pdq
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 04:18 AM

Half the posts on this thread are from people who go to anti-Republican websites and get their daily dose of professionally produced hate. Most Republicans are good people and Sarah Palin is charismatic and charming. She may be a little bit short of George H. W. Bush on qualification for the VP slot, but so was Geraldine Ferraro in 1984. So was Dan Quayle. In fact, there were "better qualified" people than Calvin Coolege, Harry S. Truman, Walter Mondale, Spiro Agnew, and most VPs throughout US history. The fact that Ronald Reagan chose a "more qualified" man than himself showed his level of self-confidence. Same with George W. Bush's choice of Richard Cheney. Please start talking about issues and stop sliming people. Mudcat has already had most of its grownups leave and nasty attacks on Sarah Palin and her children, or on John McCain about plane crashes ain't helping fix the problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 10:27 AM

If Reagan's choice of a "more qualified" vice president showed his self confidence, I expect that you will grant the same to Obama.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: pdq
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 10:36 AM

Well, so granted. Isn't agreement more fun.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 10:46 AM

How Alaskans Feel about It :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: SharonA
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 11:00 AM

pdq, it isn't just that Palin is less "qualified" for the office than many of us feel she should be. It's that John McCain's campaign theme has been that Obama is less "qualified" to lead than McCain thinks he should be, yet McCain has chosen someone who is supposed to be ready to step into that leadership role if need be but has less experience in national and international politics than Obama does. Our "hatred" is hatred of hypocrisy.

Our "hatred" is also hatred of McCain's painfully obvious pandering to special interests, and his obvious attempt to woo female voters to his side. The latter is already backfiring here in the swing state of Pennsylvania! I offer an excerpt from this CNN article about yesterday's rally:

WASHINGTON, PA -- "...In just her second appearance on the campaign trail with John McCain, newly-minted GOP running mate Sarah Palin was showered with boos on Saturday [August 30] for attempting to praise Clinton's trail-blazing bid to become the first female president.

"As she did at in her debut speech in Ohio yesterday, Palin appealed to the women in the crowd here in Pennsylvania with a political shout-out to Geraldine Ferraro, who preceded Palin as the first women to be tapped as a vice presidential candidate.

"But in contrast with the mild reception that greeted her comments at the Ohio event, when Palin praised Clinton here for showing 'determination and grace in her presidential campaign,' the Alaska governor was met with a noisy mix of boos, groans and grumbles around the minor league ballpark where the 'Road to the Convention' rally was held."


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 11:12 AM

This is how she looks to rational people


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 12:37 PM

to be fair of course she has some supporters


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Stringsinger
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 01:46 PM

PDQ writes

" Most Republicans are good people and Sarah Palin is charismatic and charming. She may be a little bit short of George H. W. Bush on qualification for the VP slot, but so was Geraldine Ferraro in 1984. So was Dan Quayle."

This is an appropriate assessment because what we see is Dan Quayle in a dress.
To say that this strident, anti-choice, fundamentalist, anti-science, anti-environment
loud woman is charming is to give the same equivalence to a porcupine after the spines have been hurled.

" In fact, there were "better qualified" people than Calvin Coolege, Harry S. Truman, Walter Mondale, Spiro Agnew, and most VPs throughout US history. The fact that Ronald Reagan chose a "more qualified" man than himself showed his level of self-confidence."

Ronald Reagan chose a more qualified man than himself to do what? His appointments have always been RNC hacks. Some were indicted criminals.

" Same with George W. Bush's choice of Richard Cheney. Please start talking about issues and stop sliming people.'

You can't always separate the people from their behavior. We don't know many of these people on a personal level but we can morally ask if their actions are helpful to our country.

" Mudcat has already had most of its grownups leave and nasty attacks on Sarah Palin and her children, or on John McCain about plane crashes ain't helping fix the problem."

What grownups?

As I see it, the problem is Republicanism. We've had eight long years of torturous
policies by this Administration (and I use torture metaphorically and literally). I see the selection of Palin as a continuation of these policies which have left our country bankrupt, jobs gone away, health care gutted, an occupation of a foreign country based on lies,
and to add insult to injury, her selection is so obviously motivated by political opportunism and not because of qualifications. I would imagine that Romney, Lieberman et. al are stewing over this misstep.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 02:17 PM

Yup. Yup. That last paragraph sums it up. For all of my hesitations about Obama being a super-politician (not as a compliment), there is just no choice left now. This opportunism feels as if they are shoving it in our (middle of the road) faces. Like that woman who spoke at the Dem convention "I just can't do it no more." Please make it stop!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Stringsinger
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 02:21 PM

"I think it's easy to see, though, that Sarah Palin will make a better Vice President than Dick Cheney, Dan Quayle, Spiro Agnew, or Dick Nixon."

Joe, you have got to be kidding. This strident lady is anti-choice, anti-science, pro fundamentalist Christian, in favor of drilling in ANWAR, maintaining that abstinence
makes the heart grow fonder, flip-flops on support for Steven's bridge to nowhere,
has not met with McCain enough to have his unqualified endorsement, and speciously
pretends to admire Hillary Clinton although all of her ideologies run counter to what Hillary has advocated. I would say that she might be more useless than Dan Quayle or perhaps more dangerous.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Peace
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 02:22 PM

Stringsinger, these folks influenced a generation of people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Peace
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 02:24 PM

OK, maybe that's not so funny . . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 02:26 PM

>>>Mudcat has already had most of its grownups leave and nasty attacks on Sarah Palin and her children, or on John McCain about plane crashes ain't helping fix the problem.

LOL surely you mean groan-ups LOL

Seriously pdq. She is without a doubt the least qualified person ever to run for one of the two national offices. Her challenge being to get up to speed and learn enough to take over for McCain while campaigning for VP and mothering young children one of whom has special needs. Frankly picking her as VP is a reckless as being responsible for the crashing of three multimillion dollar airplanes. Its worse. No daddy and grand daddy admirals can bail him out of this mistake.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 02:27 PM

Reports on McCain's favored choice, Leiberman: the right wing of the party would not allow it. His choice of Palin, IMHO, shows his rash tendencies. To quote McCain's book of 2002, "Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint." Maybe he can live with the consequences, but as a president, the world has to live with his mistakes made in haste.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 02:38 PM

Republicans "have a tradition of nominating fun, bantamweight cheerleaders from the West, like the previous Miss Congeniality types Dan Quayle and W., and then letting them learn on the job. So they crash into the globe a few times while they're learning to drive, what's the big deal?"
from an op-ed piece by Maureen Dowd click here


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 02:40 PM

>>> For all of my hesitations about Obama being a super-politician (not as a compliment),

Its funny, that's why I support Obama. He is skilled enough to beat the Republicans and skilled enough to get things done if elected.

Carter, Gore and Kerry, while good men in their own way did not have the skills required to make a real difference.

Super-politicians Reagan and Clinton did. Though, I know consider Reagan's leadership to be something of a disaster, he was able to enact real change.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 02:56 PM

"The movie ends with the former beauty queen shaking out her pinned-up hair, taking off her glasses, slipping on ruby red peep-toe platform heels that reveal a pink French-style pedicure, and facing down Vladimir Putin on an island in the Bering Strait. Putting away her breast pump, she points her rifle and informs him frostily that she has some expertise in Russia because it's close to Alaska. 'Back off, Commie dude,' she says. 'I'm a much better shot than Cheney.'"

--------------------

I thught about that JtS and it's understandable, but there is a huge difference between Obama as against Clinton or Reagan. The latter spoke their minds. Clinton wouldn't shut up on intricate policy issues of any magnitude. Obama holds his tongue unless the subject is palatable to the masses.

His smashing of the Clinton machine was impressive, but on the other hand, he was placed together with David Axelrod, genius campaign organizer. He got along with a lot of people to get there. For all of his intellect and poise, leadership hasn't been on his list of strong points, yet. He could even end up a rubber stamp President to a Democratic Congress.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Peace
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 03:00 PM

That's an acute diagnosis, heric. Good one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 03:16 PM

"He could even end up a rubber stamp President to a Democratic Congress."
And if this is all that happens, it would not be such a bad thing. The Repubs have blocked needed legislation on health care and more, and now maybe we can move forward with what needs to be completed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 03:22 PM

agree


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: robomatic
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 04:16 PM

I for one feel quite blessed by the choice. Friday I had to go to the hospital for a procedure which called for general anesthetic, and going home with weird little pains in embarassing areas. But EVERYONE was talking about the Palin selection and this took away a good half of the discomfort and bother by pure diversion.

I'd sure like to know what the people around McCain saw when his head exploded.

Cute cartoon, Ebbie!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: pdq
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 06:16 PM

Sarah Palin was chosen because John McCain had a 10 point gender gap to close. She is not going to help in the northeast where McCain will not do well, but she will not hurt. I wanted to see Liddy Dole, a woman fully capable of being a great president. She is 61 but hubby is in his eighties. She did the right thing to stay home. I also like Colin Powell and Mitt Romney, but addressing the gender gap problem won out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: bobad
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 06:35 PM

Well, I guess we'll have to wait 'till the elections to see if choosing on the basis of gender versus ability pays off.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 06:39 PM

At any rate, I'm sure most people will agree that she'd be much much better than Dubya, if McCain gets elected and gets promoted to glory soon after, and she has to take over

But then, who wouldn't?

A bit of a wild gamble though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: pdq
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 06:41 PM

Ah, but the public will choose a president based on ability, not hype or sex or race. McCain: 53%, Obama: 42%, Barr 5%.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: pdq
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 07:06 PM

The two most important issues with the American people are immigration and foreign policy, where McCain is way ahead. Obama is considered better on domestic issues and environment, even though Obama can't tell jujifruit from goat shit about the environment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 07:17 PM

I think determining what are "the most important issues with the American public", or with any voting public, would be a remarkably difficult thing to do. What people say in response to questions on such matters are no reliable guide.

If anyone asked me a question like that I'd have half a dozen different answers floating around, and it'd be pretty arbitrary which one got picked out as number one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Peace
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 07:22 PM

"Ah, but the public will choose a president based on ability, not hype or sex or race. McCain: 53%, Obama: 42%, Barr 5%"

Well, hate to do this to you, pdq, but here it is: McCain, 45%; Barr, 3% and Obama, 50%.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: pdq
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 07:28 PM

Hmmm. Bet? CDs work for me. (thanks, BTW, if I forgot to say so already)


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Peace
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 07:30 PM

YOU are on, buddy. LOL

I KNEW you'd say that. Hope you're keepin' well, and you are most welcome.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 07:37 PM

According to the Harris polls, the US voters consistently rank the economy and energy policy as their top issues.
http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=942


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 07:47 PM

Specifically, that August Harris poll I linked to shows the number one issue as
The Economy (non specific) 43%
Gas & Oil Prices 15% and Energy 15%
The War 22%
Healthcare 15%

Immigration is down at 6%
and National Security 2%

There is a long list of concerns. It's interesting to see the breakdown.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 08:20 PM

Posted Sunday, August 31 2008 at 19:23
"Barack Obama jumped to his biggest lead since late July in public opinion polls, after his speech to more than 75,000 people in a Denver football stadium when he accepted the Democratic Party's presidential nomination.


Obama the man to fulfil Luther King Jr's dream

Republican John McCain showed off his vice presidential running mate, Alaska Governor Sarah Palin in this city, yesterday as Mr Obama's campaign aired a new TV ad urging voters not be distracted by McCain putting a woman on the GOP ticket.

At the same time, their campaign unveiled a 30-second national TV ad that says Mr McCain's selection of Ms Palin should not obscure the fact that Mr McCain candidacy represents a continuation of President Bush 's policies.

"So, while this may be his running mate," an announcer says with a photo of Palin on the screen, "America knows this is McCain's agenda." The visual then switches to a shot of McCain and Bush. "We can't afford four more years of the same."

Mr Obama himself offered a non-committal assessment of Palin during a television interview.

Speaking during a taping of CBS' "60 Minutes," Mr Obama said Ms Palin "Obviously, she's a fine mother and an up and coming public servant" but added "It's too early for me to gauge what kind of running mate she'll be. My sense is that she subscribes to John McCain's agenda."

Meanwhile, how long Mr Obama holds the lead in polls is open to question, as voters react to Mr McCain's surprise selection of Mr Palin for his running mate and Republicans begin their nominating convention tomorrow in St Paul, Minnesota.

Mr Obama leads McCain 49-41 per cent in the most recent Gallup Poll daily tracking survey, which measured voter sentiment during a three-day period ending on August 28."


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Barry Finn
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 09:05 PM

"The two most important issues with the American people are immigration and foreign policy"

pdq, is that your opinion?

Cause I'd say that the economy is #1 & McCash hasn't got a clue what to do about that except to offer the rich more tax breaks & that's been oh, so sucessful as we've recently seen. Thanks Bush for the F#&king 600 bucks, it didn't even put a dent in my rising heating bills from the winter!
On the other hand Obama has got a real good grasp with tax breaks to those that work for it & actually taxing the top 5% who've never paid their fair share in their lives & keeping those same folks the from getting the tax breaks to out source our jobs & again he's up to growing green industries as a new job & revenue source. Let the republicans sit & think about this for a few yrs while it passes US by.

As for immigration, IMHO that's a republican smokescreen, why start now, when they've benifited from immigrants for so long & so much in the past, & reaped handsomely too I might add.

Foreign policy! You've got to be kidding. The present & past policy & it's one McSpends endorses, is War & at the cost of, is it a billion a month it's been a twofold disaster, that's killing the economy & killing ours & their kids. Great job, well done so far. We now borrow from China to pay for a was in the Mid East, that's taking the food off our tables at home, raising the price of everything we ship, truck, train, transport or touch or eat. Meanwhile, the Oil industry is breaking all records in the profit sector, the drug companies are making killer profits that's gonna be the death of US all, education is off the price charts & the health care system is asking US all to bend over so than can do a rectal exam to see what's wrong with our minds for letting the republicans do what they've been doing to US for so long. Forget about SS, you won't be able to retire at this rate, you'll work for your medical conditions & drugs & even if you're as healthy as a hose by whatever the retirement age is by then you'll not be able to survive on your SS check so you'll probably be working till you drop dead & if it happens on the job hopefully OSHA is still in effect & your workers comp is up to date so your kids don't get buried paying the cost to give you closure & hope that you die before an Old Age retirement settlement selltes out of court & lands up with owning your kid's home too as well as their 1st borns.

Immigration and foreign policy! That's not even the tip of the ice berg never mind the top of it! We're so fucked on so many fronts that it's mind boggling to even think of the repair work & the associated costs that's gonna be given to the next suceeding generations. Here comes My children & grandchildren are screwed becasue of the present & recent past republican administrations unless Obama gets in & works some magic, casue it sure ain't gonna happen with more from the same party of assholes.

Here comes the "New Deal" again, the WPA for the 21st century.

Now here we all get in line,
And it's Buddy, can you share a dime
We've had our coffee here before
But the lunch pail's pale this time

No more New Deals for me
Just a job & a future please
Health & Welfare & a sick day
And a bit of coverage for the family

In the 90's I worked overtime
Personnal days plenty vaction time
A living wage & yearly increase
Oh those times they were so sweet

Today's not worth the living
When my back gave all it's giving
And the drugs I need won't feed me
I'd be better off in prison

But I'll pack my pail once more
And I'll head out of the door
And I'll sweat my days away
On this goddam killing floor

And when I'm at my end days
My kids will proudly say
That he tried to feed & cloth' us
But he only worked his life away


Remember the "lunch pail"? It was a symbol of those times.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 09:35 PM

Yeah, like they say, people vote their pocketbooks and this election will be no different... Once Obama beats back McCain's BIG LIE about Obama raising "your taxes" the rest will work iotself out fairly nicely...

Problem is that right now, McCain's camp has injected several BIG LIEs into the campaign that the Obama team will ahve to dispell before the polls will move...

But I do like the comment that Obama made about McCain not having the "temperment" to be president and I hope that his people will come out with a few ads showing McHothead to be just that and that oughtta buy Obama some time to beat back some of the BIG LIES while McCain scurries to come up with a number of ads where people give testimonials about just what a nice guy McNice really is...

Kinda a chess game right now...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 09:48 PM

I heard on NPR that McCain had named a female to run--I caught just the tail end of it and didn't know who so called home in a panic to ask my husband if he had heard and if he thought it would get McCain elected. He had heard and said -- not that woman!!! As someone (pdq, I think) said earlier McCain could have picked Liddy Dole -- God, he could have picked Olympia Snowe from Maine and we might all be shaking in our shoes but this woman - a person who boasts of being a hockey mum? Please - it's insulting to the majority of women, I hope it will be the deathknell of the McCain campaign......


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: mg
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 10:07 PM

Olympia Snowe would seem to be an excellent choice. I have had some professional contact with her years ago and she was quite impressive. She is Greek-American I believe...well so was Spiro T. but would add some ethnic variety as well. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: pdq
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 10:07 PM

What I said was: Liddy Dole is a very able person and quite capable of being president. I also said Colin Powell and Mitt Romney would have been good choices. I did not say McCain could have chosen Liddy Dole since her loyalty to Bob Dole ruled her out as a candidate. I respect her decision.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 10:12 PM

Silly people are taking their ball and going home since some people say mean things about their candidate. These grown ups need a fresh perspective.

Like one of my cartoons about people who protest protest;



To question is to ridicule senslessly

To ridicule is to attack

To attack is childish

To be childish is to question

Don Hakman


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 10:14 PM

My point was that if McCain wanted a woman on the ticket he had many other much stronger choices than Ms. Palin. But of course, those other women were not strong enough on pro life and creationism.......!

Pdq - didn't mean to misquote you......


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 10:18 PM

I would say that the top three issues are the economy. Followed by getting out of Iraq, then banning abortion. Though for many of McCain's supporters abortion is first.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 10:22 PM

"Seriously pdq. She [Sarah Palin] is without a doubt the least qualified person ever to run for one of the two national offices."


               Except for Barack Obama. She's more qualified than he is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 10:24 PM

The economy -- it has to be the economy....what else is there. We are spending $15K to change our house to a gas heating system because of the price of oil -- we are spending $4K to put in a pellet stove......we are among the lucky few because we actually HAVE the $19K this is going to cost to have done............; ; what do those poor souls living from pay check to pay check do??? Where is the end to it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 10:25 PM

Jack, look at the Harris poll results for this month that I linked to. Abortion issue is WAY down the list of concerns of voters right now. Perception is not the same as reality.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 10:37 PM

Sarah Palin, whose education was in a small Idaho college, majoring in journalism and won her governor's race as a fluke because Murkowski became unpopular - TOTALLY NOT QUALIFIED for any federal level office!

from wiki:
"In 1996, she challenged and defeated incumbent mayor John Stein, criticizing wasteful spending and high taxes. In January 1997, Palin fired the Wasilla police chief, citing a failure to support her administration. In response, a group of 60 residents calling themselves Concerned Citizens for Wasilla discussed attempting a recall campaign against Palin, but decided against it. The fired police chief later sued Palin on the grounds that he was fired because he supported the campaign of Palin's opponent, but his suit was dismissed when the judge ruled that Palin had the right under state law to fire city employees, even for political reasons."

She criticized wasteful spending, then went ahead with building a big ice rink that has caused the city to cut back on funding for such things as the library. Well, she is anti-science, too, so I guess the library is not as important to her as having a hockey rink built in her name.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 10:37 PM

Alice, don't let the polls fool you. A lot of people won't say abortion is an issue because for them it is a given. But its a biggie. In the last few days I found that for a number of people I know. It is paramount. If there is no way they will vote for a pro life candidate. If they call him a baby killers, then other issues have no relevance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: SharonA
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 10:57 PM

Apparently, Palin has some party-loyalty problems at home. According to this ABC News article, Alaska's Republican senior Senator Ted Stevens is up for re-election in a tight race with Anchorage's mayor. Stevens had endorsed Palin when she ran for governor in '06 (not during her primary, but 3 weeks before the general election) and she publicly and enthusiastically accepted that endorsement. Problem is that now Stevens is under indictment for lying about political gifts received. In July of this year, before the indictment but after the FBI raided Stevens' home, Palin and Stevens held a joint news conference and said there was no political distance between them. However, now that Palin is on McCain's "maverick" platform, the McCain campaign is keeping mum about whether Palin will or will not support Stevens' campaign.

Yet more evidence that McCain didn't think through his choice for veep. Either McC has to look the other way while Palin endorses Stevens and tries to keep that Senate seat on the Republican side of the aisle (and shows the country that he's no maverick and that the GOP is the SOS), or he insists that she not endorse Stevens and he loses the Republican Senate seat and all the party-goodwill that he might have gained from Alaska by nominating their governor as VP. Idiot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: SharonA
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 11:09 PM

Jack the Sailor: I take it you mean "there is no way they will vote for a pro-CHOICE candidate." Ironic, isn't it, that McCain was a soldier in Vietnam -- there was a time when HE would have been called a "baby-killer". But nowadays, retroactive abortion by war seems to be the righteous thing to do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 11:41 PM

Sorry SharonA, I often make that mistake. Of course nearly ever human being is pro-life, so that silly definition has never sunk into my head.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: SharonA
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 12:23 AM

Nor into mine, Jack, nor into mine. Of course, nearly every human being is in favor of living AND in favor of having a free choice! The problems come in choosing for others....
"I choose not to let you be born because I chose to have sex without planning for parenthood"
"I choose to kill you with a bomb because my country chooses to take something that your country has"
"I choose not to let you be born because someone chose to rape me and you are the product of that rape"
"I choose to shoot you dead because you are shooting at me for choosing to invade your homeland"
,,,None of these options seems preferable...


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 12:34 AM

My considered guess is that McCain is going to be unable to rein her in- Oh, is he going to be sorry... She is one stubborn lady; she don' lissen. Kind of like W with his gut feelings. Or Wally Hickel's 'little man on his shoulder'.

Of course, if the investigative body finds her guilty of using political means for private ends and reprimands her, or worse, McCain may have to cut her loose. I doubt that will happen, though- McCain has the same stubborn little man.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 12:58 AM

"Sarah Palin gave a crowd-pleasing speech after she was selected by John McCain Friday. Conservatives were thrilled and women were just ecstatic. President Bush called her and congratulated her on her Olympic gold medal in women's beach volleyball.

GOP convention delegates gathering in Minnesota Friday were overjoyed by Sarah Palin's selection. It fit the party's most pressing need this week. They had to have a candidate with no risk of being arrested in the Minneapolis airport men's room.

Sarah Palin was slammed by environmentalists for her record on wildlife issues Friday because the governor favors shooting wolves from the air. In Alaska they call that predator control. In the Democratic Party it's called keeping an eye on Bill.

Sarah Palin's choice Friday let the GOP match the Democratic ticket for exotic appeal. She's from Alaska and Barack Obama's from Hawaii. It's a chance for the Libertarian party to advertise Bob Barr as the candidate of the Lower Forty-Eight.

Governor Sarah Palin married Todd Palin 20 years ago in Alaska where there are 10 men for every woman. The atmosphere is crazy up there. Women are warned not to look for husbands in Alaska, where the odds are good but the goods are odd."


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:14 AM

Maher on Palin.... ROFLMAO.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:19 AM

The eloped, after she graduated from college in Idaho, is what I read.

There was some idiot over in a published "roundtable" at the WSJ who said she had more "executive experience" than Obama, McCain and Biden combined. All they ever did was run a "senate office." Ye gawds and gawddesses!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: emjay
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:20 AM

Sarah Palin is reputed to have an 80% approval rating here in Alaska. Well, here in Alaska I have heard from people who claim to have voted Republican all their lives who will now vote Democratic, from another who swore he would never vote for Sarah Palin again and is now faced with a dilemma.
Stop and thin about her so-called adminstrative experience in which she has attempted to micro-manage lower level employees. And she has attempted to inappropriately influence voting. There was a recent very public, very controversial ballot proposition calling for stringent controls on waste water disposal from new large scale mines. She appeared on tv saying she was appearing not as governor but as a private citizen, and saying she was voting against the proposition. She also opposes listing the polar bear as threatened or endangered species and has directed the state to bring suit against the listing. She denies there is any man-made cause of global warming.
Because one has been in an administrative position does not necessarily mean one has been a good administrator. The governor she replaced was so bad it would have been hard not to look good.
In one comment I have heard being circulated here in Alaska, "A woman voting for Sarah Palin is like a chicken voting for Col. Sanders."
There is so much more to know about Ms. Palin and so little of it tells anything about why she should be vice-president of the United States. Make that none of it would help there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:26 AM

More like 65 and falling according to other reports.

Why Palin is the Worst VP Choice Ever.



A


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 03:06 AM

LOL

George W Bush has more than eight years of executive experience, and look how lacking in competence he is. Looks to me like executive experience is highly overrated.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 04:09 AM

This is form a conservative columnist:

"The choice also says a lot about McCain. First, that he is a bit desperate," Coffin writes on the National Review site The Corner. "Second, that he is one arrogant SOB. McCain is essentially telling the world that he doesn't really need a Vice President.... Rather, the Office would seem poised to return to the 'proverbial warm bucket of p***' category."


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: SharonA
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 05:22 AM

Kat, which columnist was that? I'd like to read that whole column; please give us a reference. Thanks!

More to the point, which are the conservatives who are supporting McInsane's choice of Palin? (Aside from Rush Limbaugh, of course... he's a given.)

Speaking of Rush, I just took a peek at his site, and one of his lead "stories" draws the parallel I drew earlier in this thread between Palin and Monica Lewinsky. Rush's headline: "Hillary's place taken by another woman... again." I knew that political cartoonists (or, in this case, politics' biggest cartoon) would be all over this aspect of the nomination. His unintended insinuation, though, is that McCain's veep is servicing Bill Clinton! This is what happens when they stretch the truth until it breaks: it snaps back to smack them in the face.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 08:18 AM

nice to know Obama's supporters have claimed the high ground... (NOT)


I guess it is only a lie if you blame it on the Bush administration.





Sunday, August 31, 2008
Lefty Bloggers Go After Palin's Daughter

Posted by: Amanda Carpenter at 5:47 PM

Members of the lefty blogosphere haven't stopped perpetuating the rumor Sarah Palin "faked" her last pregnancy and are now humiliating her daughter Bristol on the blatantly incorrect suspicion she is the real mother of baby Trig.

"Sarah Palin is NOT the Mother" is the title of this DailyKos blog that accuses Bristol, a completely fit-looking adolescent teen, of having a "baby bump" in a photo they allege was taken March 9th of this year.

"Sarah, I'm calling you a liar" wrote blogger ArcXIX. "And not even a good one. Trig Paxson Van Palin is not your son. He is your grandson. The sooner you come forward with this revelation to the public, the better. " Photos of Bristol with detailed commentary about her abdomen are contained in the post.

Not only is the DailyKos disgustingly inspecting Bristol's midriff with all the fervor of LA paparazzi examining J-Lo's or Jennifer Aniston's washboard stomachs for evidence of a "bump," the DailyKos is wrong on when the photo was taken. It was taken, and published, by the Anchorage Daily News in 2006. Baby Trig, a child with Down's Syndrome, was born on April 18, 2008. That's a long time for a teen girl to be carrying a "bump" which looks nothing more than the curve of a tight sweater.

Shortly after Palin was announced as McCain's VP, bloggers at the Kos started ginning up the rumor Palin faked her pregnancy, allegedly to cover for an illegitimate grandchild, because she looked so fit and trim in photos taken a few months before giving birth.

This is only the latest in outrageous attacks against Palin as a mother. Fox News anchor Alan Colmes, of Hannity & Colmes, titled a recent post on his blog Liberaland "Did Palin Take Proper PreNatal Care?" In it, he wondered if she somehow was at fault for having a disabled child. Colmes took down the post after being attacked by the blog Wizbang and later reposted a screenshot of the blog to prove he "wasn't running away from what I posted."

Update: I originally mentioned this Kos rumor in a blog post about CNN's John Roberts's insinuation Palin would not give adequate care and attention to Trig if she became VP.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 09:20 AM

I would have thought by now, Bruce, you would have realized that all political parties have some good people in them. And, conversely, share the dregs among them. The number of scurrilous false reports about Obama that the true-and-red right wingers have promulgated outnumber those from the Obama camp by a large factor.

Besides, Palin as she is is quite funny enough, without inventing Kerry-like falsehoods about her.

"Remember, Alaska's the closest part of our continent to Russia, so it's not as if she doesn't understand what's at stake here."
-- Cindy McCain, on Palin's lack of national security experience

The logic of this proposition, which has been echoed by at least one TV commentator from the right wing camp, is so dismayingly moronic as to make one think one is in Wonderland.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 09:27 AM

Obama is going to be clinging to his guns and religion before this is over and... Oh yeah, that's right, he'a already clinging to his religion. We just need to figure out which religion that is...


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 09:46 AM

Because of Palin? Come on, Rig. She is a lightweight.

On the subject Bruce raised of scurrilous attacks, here's a description of the Mcain vs Bush contest in South Carolina during the Reppublican primaries last time:

"The crucible came in South Carolina, where the tone took a decidedly low turn. Bush stood by as a surrogate at a campaign event accused McCain of forgetting fellow veterans when he returned after five and a half years of captivity in North Vietnam. At McCain headquarters, reports kept pouring in about flyers and phone calls insinuating all manner of scurrilous things about the senator — he had fathered a black child out of wedlock, he beat his wife, he was mentally unstable, he had a secret Vietnamese family, he was a Manchurian candidate, he was gay, his wife was a drug addict and so forth. Bush denied any involvement in the whisper campaign, but for his own part took umbrage at a McCain ad saying the Texas governor "twists the truth like Clinton."

"Stuff happened in South Carolina that none of us liked," Mark Salter, McCain's alter ego, told me over a beer in a hotel bar during a campaign swing in New England last month. "But you never knew how much" was orchestrated by Bush or his people. McCain's campaign was crushed in South Carolina, and McCain did little to hide his anger, calling Bush "a combination of the Cowardly Lion, the Tin Man and the Scarecrow" — in other words, a man with no courage, no heart and no brain. Cindy McCain stewed over the attacks, particularly the "illegitimate black child" allegation, a vicious reference to their adopted daughter Bridget, a baby she brought home from an orphanage in Bangladesh run by Mother Teresa. The night of the primary, Cindy cried in the candidate's hotel suite...."


Seems this is not a party specific attribute, does it not?

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 10:17 AM

Maureen Dowd on Ms Sarah Palin's selection.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 10:21 AM

Do you make choices in your life to effect poor choices in your past, or do you make choices to effect your future?

It is a serious question. I am inclined to think that most of your choices are geared to effect your future.

The below rhetoric however is slanted to condemn the chooser past and future...

"I choose not to let you be born because I chose to have sex without planning for parenthood"


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 10:22 AM

"Because of Palin? Come on, Rig. She is a lightweight."


               Not compared to Obama!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 11:00 AM

Compared to Obama she is fluff, dude. Harvard law versus a degree in psychobabble from, where was it, U. Minn??    Mayor of Wasilia versus Senator from Illinois? Hockey mom?? You got eyes asleep?   Wake your eyes up, bro. They got some plain seeing to do.




A


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 11:05 AM

robomatic,

get well soon. You were indeed brave to elect to have a vasectomy at sea.

Some choices are permanent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 11:23 AM

Amos,

" Mayor of Wasilia versus Senator from Illinois? Hockey mom?? "

She has been a gov. of a state- a higher position, and an executive. Obama has been a Sen. for about the same time- and has done very little other than run for President. If SHE is not qualified, then Obama needs to slink out the back door before someone looks at what he has DONE- I HAVE posted his votes FROM HIS SITE in several threads.

She has more experience.

You may not agree with her, but then, I don't agree with Obama- Does that give me the right to claim that HE is only a "basketball dad"?

Feel free to say that you do not want her to be VP, but don't give us any bull about HER not being qualified while claiming Obama is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: pdq
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 11:31 AM

"Feel free to say that you do not want her to be VP, but don't give us any bull..."

Well put, bb! Please repeat that as often as needed until it gets through some of the thick skulls around here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 11:32 AM

Here you go, Sharon: Click. That's where I read that quote. It's by Shannen Coffin a former something-or-other to Dick Cheney.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 11:36 AM

In 2006 she beat the corrupt male establishment in Alaska to win the governorship. She opposes same-sex marriage, but one of her first acts in office was to veto a bill blocking health benefits for gay lovers of public employees.

She hunts, ice-fishes and is a crack shot who knows how to fire an M16 rifle. "I was raised in a family where gender was not going to be an issue," she said. "The girls did what the boys did. Apparently in Alaska that's quite commonplace." No softy, she sued to stop the federal government making polar bears an endangered species and favours drilling for oil in the Arctic wildlife refuge. However, she also levied a windfall tax on oil companies. "
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article4641030.ece#cid=OTC-RSS&attr=797093


"Ron Bonjean, top strategist for Senate and House Republicans

The brilliant choice of Gov. Palin is that is has energized the conservative base while appealing to independents, working moms, disaffected Hillary voters and those who want change brought to Washington. It was smart, outside-the-box thinking to shake up the Obama momentum and has turned the media upside down on news coverage.

Sen. Obama's inexperience is actually being amplified through McCain's choice. The more Obama's campaign and its surrogates attack Gov. Palin on her positive track record, the more damage they do to Obama's brand. Their attacks have a boomerang effect because it allows McCain's team to remind voters that Obama doesn't have strong leadership credentials.

Gov. Palin's challenge will be to perform flawlessly over the next 60 days, because any mistake or misfire can quickly shape her image among voters who are still absorbing this choice.
"


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 11:54 AM

Right... brilliant of her to notice how polar bears are not endangered; like other unaware creatures they only think they are drowning.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 11:56 AM

Obama taught constitutional law for 12 years. Palin's statements show that she has not had even a basic education in science. Bush doesn't seem to care about the constitution let alone understand it. A president who is an expert in the constitution is experience we need! Calling her time as governor in Alaska as 'executive experience' is a joke.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 12:02 PM

IF you compare the management of the two campaigns over the last year, you will find that McCain's leadership was a nervous wreck compared to Obama's, and he ended up having to go to Karl Rove and his ex-minions for help.

But the problem wasn't that McCain was too decent and not ruthless enough. It was that he either had bad judgement, or exercised it far too little. ;>)


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: olddude
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 12:05 PM

The biggest problem I have is when I hear about the issues. Then I hear McCain and Palin talk about how the republican party will fix the issues America faces, I have to ask ... gee didn't the party have 8 years to do it alrighty?

McCain and Palin were not in charge but they spout out in praise the existing policies that didn't work for 8 years. I heard it was the democrats that don't want to drill off shore hence the gas problem blame it on the dems. Ok, I am one of those who don't think drilling will fix anything. But if the drilling was going to magically fix the gas situation ... Ahhhhh am I wrong ...didn't they have 8 years to do that? Ahhhhh didn't GW have a republican controled congress also ...

If immigration is so high up on the list (not mine but ok)
ahhhh didn't they have 8 years to fix that also ...

my list goes on an on


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 12:14 PM

The arguments over experience are rediculous... I mean, lets get real here... Dick Cheney and Feorge Bush each came to office in 2000 with more "experience" than either Palin or Obama... This is a red herring discussion which hides the more important issue of just what the positions are between Obama and Palin.

Palin has been a critic of big oil because it was not drilling, ahhhh, fast enough...

Palin would sertainly, if it were in her power, nominate a Supreme Court Justice who would be the last one needed to make abortion illegal.

Palin would be a rubber stamp for whatever position the NRA wnated furthered and would appoint pro NRA Suprme Court justices...

Palin would continue the occupation of Iraq for the next hundred years...

Palin would cut social programs whereever she could get away with it...

Palin would support the unconstitutional Patriot Act...

Palin would support the Bush tax cuts which have been a major reason for the current state of our economy...

Palin would continue to support every danged Department of Defense request for more and more money...

This is what this election is about, folks, so to my friends here who have allowed themselves to get bopgged down with the bogus "experience" argument you are being led into the usual Republcan trap that diverts youe attention away from the things that the Repubs don't want to talk about...

If you truly support a progressive agenda than ignore the red herrings that the Repubs are throwing at you... Every day they can keep the real issues off the table is another day they win the debate...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 12:39 PM

"Harvard law versus a degree in psychobabble from, where was it, U. Minn??"


                   University of Idaho. But don't forget, Obama was portraying himself as a minority, and affirmative action was-and-is very much in vogue at places like Harvard.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 12:46 PM

"portraying himself as a minority"

???!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 12:57 PM

Well, his mother is not, after all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:01 PM

Sent: Sat, 30 Aug 2008 1:22 pm
Subject: Fwd: from a friend's classmate about the Rep VP


This is one Alaskan's point of view, which seems useful to share,
one-sided thou gh it may be.
Mudcatters, this from a friend. All you have to do is Google Palin's bio readily available online to find this consistent with it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

What an election season ahead!

As an Alaskan, I am writing to give all of you some information on
Sarah Palin, Senator McCain's choice for VP. As an Alaska voter, I
know more than most of you about her and, frankly, I am horrified that
he picked her.

The most accurate description of her is red neck. Her husband works in
the oil fields of Prudhoe Bay and races snow mobiles. She is a life
time member of the NRA and has worked tirelessly to allow
indiscriminate hunting of wildlife in Alaska, particularly wolves and
bears. She has spent millions of Alaska state dollars on aerial
hunting=2 0of these predators from helicopters and airplanes, dollars
that should have been spent, for example, on Alaska's failing school
system.We have the lowest rate of high school graduation in the
country. Not all of you may think aerial predator hunting is so bad,
but how anyone (other than Alaska wolf-haters, of which there are
many, most without teeth), could think this use of funds is
appropriate is beyond me. If you want to know more about the aerial
hunting travesty, let me know and I will send some links to
informative web sites.

She has been a strong supporter of increased use of fossil fuels, yet
the McCain campaign has the nerve to say she has "green" policies. The
only thing green about Sarah Palin is her lack of experience. She has
consistently supported drilling in ANWR, use of coal-burning power
plants (as I write this, a new coal plant is being built in her home
town of Wasilla), strip mining, and almost anything else that will
unnecessarily exploit the diminishing resources of Alaska and destroy
its environment.

Prior to her one year as governor of Alaska, she was mayor of Wasilla,
a small red neck town outside Anchorage.The average maximum education
level of parents of junior high school kids in Wasilla is 10th grade.
Unfortunately, I have to go to Wasilla every week to get groceries and
other supplies, so I have continual contact with the people who put
Palin in office in the first place. I know what I'm t alking about.
These people don't have a concept of the world around them or of the
serious issues facing the US. Furthermore, they don't care. So long as
they can go out and hunt their moose every fall, kill wolves and bears
and drive their snow mobiles and ATVs through every corner of the
wilderness, they're happy. I wish I were exaggerating.

Sarah Palin is currently involved in a political corruption scandal.
She fired an individual in law enforcement here because she didn't
like how he treated one of her relatives during a divorce. The man's
performance and ability weren't considered; it was a totally personal
firing and is currently under investigation. While the issue isn't
close to the scandal of Ted Steven's corruption, it shows that Palin
isn't "squeaky clean" and causes me to think there ay be more issues
that could come to light. Clearly McCain doesn't care.

When you line Palin up with Biden, the comparison would be laughable
if it weren't so serious. Sarah Palin knows nothing of economics
(admittedly a weak area for McCain), or of international affairs,
knows nothing of national government, Social Security, unemployment,
health care systems - you name it. The idea of her meeting with heads
of foreign governments around the world truly frightens me.

In an increasingly dangerous world, with the economy in shambles in
the US, Sarah Palin is uniquely UNqualified to be vice president. John
McCain is not a young man. Should something happen to him such that
the vice president had to step in, it would destroy our country and
possibly the world to have someone as inexperienced and inappropriate
as Sarah Palin. The choice of Palin is a cheap shot by McCain to try
to get Hillary supporters to vote for him. when McCain introduced her
today, Palin had the nerve to compare herself with Hillary and
Geraldine Ferraro. Sarah Palin, you are no Hillary Clinton.

To those of you who, like me, supported Hilary and were upset that she
did not get the nomination, please don't think that Sarah Palin is a
worthy substitute. If you supported Hillary, regardless of what you
think the media and the democratic party may have done to undermine
her campaign, the person to support now is Obama, not Sarah Palin. To
those of you who are independent or undecided, don't let the choice of
Palin sway you in favor of McCain. Choosing her shows how unqualified
McCain is to be president. To those of you who are conservative, I
guess you have no choice for president. But please try to see how the
poor choice of Palin tells us a great deal about McCain's judgment.
While the political posturing inherent in the choice of Palin is
obvious, the more serious issue is the fact that the VP is, literally,
a heartbeat away from the presidency. Sarah Palin is totally and
unequivocally unqualified to be vice president, let alone president.

I know this is a lengthy and emotional email, but the stakes are high.
I thought it might help for all of you, regardless of political
affiliation, to know something about Palin from someone who has to
live with her administration in Alaska on a daily basis.


Distinguished Teaching Professor
Chair American Studies/Media and Communications


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:03 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 11:23 AM

Amos,

" Mayor of Wasilia versus Senator from Illinois? Hockey mom?? "

>>She has been a gov. of a state- a higher position, and an executive. Obama has been a Sen. for about the same time- and has done very little other than run for President. If SHE is not qualified, then Obama needs to slink out the back door before someone looks at what he has DONE- I HAVE posted his votes FROM HIS SITE in several threads.<<

Obama was in the illinois legislature for eight years, He has been a Senator for three and two thirds years whereas Plain has been a governor for one and two thirds years. The Bull shit is call that the same.

She has more experience.

MORE BULLSHIT.

>>You may not agree with her, but then, I don't agree with Obama- Does that give me the right to claim that HE is only a "basketball dad"?<<

You have the right to say what you want. but you would be wrong in saying that. Palin calls her self "just a hockey mom" every time she speaks. So no one is wrong to call her "just a hockey mom" when that's how she describes herself.

>>Feel free to say that you do not want her to be VP, but don't give us any bull about HER not being qualified while claiming Obama is.<<

This is from David (axis of evil) From's blog on the New Republic Online.

I (and most NRO readers) will vote against Barack Obama because I oppose his ideas. He is (at best) an old-line Walter Mondale taxer, spender, and regulator possibly still under the influence (at worst) of the radical alienation from America preached in his church and expressed in his own early writings. I'd vote against a candidate like this even if he had previously served as CEO of Google, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and Governor of California, with a Nobel prize on top of it all.

That said: Can we conservatives please stop kidding ourselves about Barack Obama's "qualifications"? Yes, if I had been a Democratic donor back in 2006, I'd sure worry about whether Barack Obama had what it took to be president. That was before he took on the toughest political operation in America, before he beat Bill and Hillary Clinton, before he won 18 million primary votes.

Obama's nomination was not handed to him. He fought hard for it and won against the odds. "Qualifications" predict achievement. Once you have achieved, it doesn't matter what your qualifications are. Who cares whether the guy who built a big company from nothing didn't have much of a resume when he started? But if you are applying to run a big company built by somebody else, the resume matters ...

The worst mistake in any fight is to under-estimate your opponent's abilities. Look what happened to the people who under-estimated Reagan. If conservatives are to have any hope in the coming weeks, we should wake up to the fact that we face in Barack Obama a formidable man, who appeals to something important and deep in the American electorate. He's not a superman, he has vulnerabilities, he can be beaten. But he won't be beaten until we who are trying to beat him understand why and how he has come so far.


This is an excellent description of Obama's current qualifications.

Likewise, had Sarah Palin decided in 2005 to run for president in 2008 - had she spent 3 years mastering the issues and explaining her views in public statements - had she one by one recruited leading experts on economic and defense issues to her cause and privately explored the issues of the day with them - then her current background would not be disqualifying. Indeed it would resemble that of many successful presidents.

Obama has edicated himself and built a powerful network of contacts to help him govern.

Palin has been a shill for the oil companies. She has administered a state with a huge budgetary surplus, which receives 7 federal dollars for every dollar in taxes that its people remit to Washington. Even with those advantages, she has lied about her involvement with the bridge to nowhere. She only opposed it after it had no chance. And even then she did not return the money that was allocated for it. She also abused her power in trying to get her brother in law fired. Worse than that she lied about it. Quite an accomplishment in just a year and a half. If tainting the office is the goal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:11 PM

Well, Jack, you make a good point that neither one of them is actually qualified to be president, but the difference is she's running for vice-president.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:24 PM

Rig,

If you are going to deliberately lie about what I have said, don't talk to me please. I know you are just trolling for a reaction and trying to look clever, but it pisses me off.

I just made the point that David Frum, Bush's former speechwriter, has said, in no uncertain terms that Obama is ready to be President and Palin is not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: olddude
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:24 PM

In Defense,
I am by no means at all supporting her or McCain. But I was just thinking about this. While we all sit around and complain about how things are, the folks in both parties opened their private lives up to the world, spent their money, and decided to try and do something about it. We all disagree on the manner in which they intend to change things. However, unlike all of us, every one who decides to run didn't sit the bench like we are all doing. Sad really, make me think I should toss my hat into something to try and make a difference. Maybe we all should think about running for something. Maybe we can make things just a little better for someone else


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:28 PM

One heart-beat, or lack thereof, away from President; a reckless gamble indeed, given the fate of the nation may hinge on that one heartbeat.

Furthermore, until a very short while ago, she had no notion what a Vice President of the country did.

His qualifications, earned by marshaling a major campaign with extensive talent and skill, were already distinctive. I seriously doubt whether you or I could have matched his Harvard career or his accomplishments teaching constitutional law. His legislative accomplishments are as good or better than the current Resident's. I don't know what the dark bias is that you view him through, but I would urge you to reassess in a new moment without the preconceived judgements you bring to bear. (Bruce is almost guaranteed to take this last and do his polar-inversion-semantic-nullification-field generation trick on it.)


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:35 PM

I mean no offense by this Old dude, but speak for yourself please. While neither Carol no I is a Democrat. We have opened our wallets to donate and our home to voluteers. We have knocked on doors, cooked meals for out of state coordinators, and driven people to the poles in the primary election.

You don't have to run to make a difference.

There are plenty things to do for the Obama Campaign and they would love to have your help.

On the other hand, it would be remiss of you as a citizen not to question Palin's qualifications and character. If we all had looked closer at George W Bush in 2000 we might not be in the mess we are now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:39 PM

It doesn't help anyone for people to spread rumors like the one about Palin's daughter being Trig's mother.

As a response to the rumors, Palin has announced her daughter's pregnancy (she's currently five months pregnant).

I have only one thing to say about this. I guess this shows us exactly how effective just teaching abstinence is in preventing teen pregnancies.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080901/pl_nm/usa_politics_palin_dc_3


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: olddude
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:40 PM

Jack your point is very well taken. I have my obama signs up all over the place and doing the same. I just think there should be more good people in office. I think many people just don't think about running that's all. Maybe a good time for us or at least someone that from time to time maybe though of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:52 PM

sorry, no cookie:


"Bruce is almost guaranteed to take this last and do his polar-inversion-semantic-nullification-field generation trick on it"

You mean even YOU can see that what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, and YOU need to apply your own statement to YOUR biased viewpoint???


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:53 PM

Debate all you would like about her ability, but this is a person that wouldn't accept the nomination until she knew what the job of the VP was. That's because she is used to being busy. Wow!!! Now there is a wonderful candidate to be a heartbeat away. Those that talk about her ability to fight corruption are kidding themselves. Comparing negotiating the politic of Alaska with the politic of Chicago, or especially the politic inside the beltway, is a bit like debating the job of Sheriff of a small town in Alaska with the Police Chief of New York City. There is a whole different degree of sophistication, managerial training and experience, and then you have a much more sophisticated press to deal with.

She will flame out, and in the not too distant future, IMHO. The media dogs of war are already starting to work. They smell the blood in the water.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:55 PM

Olddude,

I take your suggestion as well meant but I'll speak for myself again. We can't all be the king bee, some of us are just the drones. In Canada, I knew a lot of politicians, including men who went on to be come federal ministers of Finance and Fisheries. I helped in a local campaign for city council here in Wilmington. I know that I don't have the skills or the temperament to be elected. The best use of my time is to find someone I can support and support them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:57 PM

"I have only one thing to say about this. I guess this shows us exactly how effective just teaching abstinence is in preventing teen pregnancies."


What a bunch of crap, CarolC.


There's no where that "just teaches abstinence."

Today's teenagers are in such a hurry to grow up that ALL of them tend to make choices to do things before they are ready.

Yes...ALL. Those that belong to democrats, republicans, liberals, conservatives, white, black, latino, or any other group that exists within our borders.

Take off your blinders and stop acting like the little old lady next door with a good juicy bit of gossip.

Hubby


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:01 PM

Yes, and since all teenagers do things like that, we need to provide very thorough sex education, and promote the use of birth control among teenagers. Statistics show that when this is done, there are fewer teen pregnancies than when abstinence-based sex education is used, as we can see in the case of the Palin's daughter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:03 PM

>>>"Bruce is almost guaranteed to take this last and do his polar-inversion-semantic-nullification-field generation trick on it"

You mean even YOU can see that what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, and YOU need to apply your own statement to YOUR biased viewpoint???<<<

Bruce, While "sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander" Is a tried and sometimes true cliche, you over use it and use it without thought to the context. Most people have eyes enough to see that while Obama and McCain both have weaknesses as candidates, there are very few places where those weaknesses precisely overlap. Yet you constantly take a criticism of "McCain", do a "search and replace" for "Obama" and pretend that you have said something thoughtful.

Do you actually apply any intellectual effort of your own into these debates? Do you ever bother to think about what is said? If you do the effort does not show. Why don't you express some of your own opinions?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:06 PM

>>Today's teenagers are in such a hurry to grow up that ALL of them tend to make choices to do things before they are ready.

Yes...ALL. Those that belong to democrats, republicans, liberals, conservatives, white, black, latino, or any other group that exists within our borders.<<

Susu's hubby, you should be writing ads for "Planned Parenthood."


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:09 PM

Mick has had a lot of political experience and I think his judgement may be spot on in this case. It seems obvious that Palin has not had the experience she needs to even run for VP much more than do the job. It seems likely that that lack of experience will become apparent between now and November 4.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:10 PM

"Today's teenagers are in such a hurry to grow up that ALL of them tend to make choices to do things before they are ready."

What horseshit. It may be difficult, but think back to when you were 17. This is nothing new with teenagers. Only a fool would assume that abstinence is going to work.   Carol C is 100% correct - the lack of proper education in our schools today creates more problems. 20 or 30 years ago the schools were able to teach about contraception, but today it has become an issue thanks to the "family values" that the Republican hypocrits have heaped upon us.    It all comes home.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:14 PM

MY opinion is that many of the comments made here are narrow-minded, bigoted attacks on the person and not a reasonable criticism of the policies advocated. I have tried to point out that the insults apply as much to the other side: If a statement is unfair when stated against one side, it is as unfair when appled to the other- given that no facts to support specific insults are presented.


You do your candidate no good by your baseless attacks.



YOU state "On the other hand, it would be remiss of you as a citizen not to question Palin's qualifications and character."

I will remind you, it is as important, if not more important to apply it to BOTH sides:

On the other hand, it would be remiss of you as a citizen not to question Obama's qualifications and character.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: DougR
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:18 PM

I believe, Donuel, that Palin is a one term governor. Could be wrong, but I was wrong one other time too. Even with only one term, though, she has more executive experience than Obama.

As to the "experience issue," she will be occupying the position of VP, not president. That will allow her to have on the job training in the areas where she has little or no experience such as foreign affairs. Obama is woefully lacking in foreign affairs and would have no time for OJT. THe "buck" were there one would stop at his desk immediately upon being sworn in as president. Well, he has Biden to lean on you say? One of the major complaints liberals have about Bush is he relied too much on his VP, particularly on issues of defense. Biden would be the next batter up, not the batter in the box.

I think McCain made a good choice.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:20 PM

On the other hand, it would be remiss of you as a citizen not to question Obama's qualifications and character.

Damn right. I think we have done our questioning and have made our choice, now it is your turn.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:27 PM

I repeat, calling a year in the Alaska governor's office "executive experience" is a joke.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:27 PM

DougR,

Like many people who vote the way you do, you have a problem with basic math.

Palin will be a one term governor in January 2011. Right now she is a 2/5th 's term governor.

She is a first term governor, But she cam harldy take credit for the whole term.

As for the "experience issue" John McCain said a month or so ago that his most important requirement for VP was someone who would be ready on day one if something happened to him. As usual we have to decide which McCain to believe; the McCain of the Present day of the McCain of the recent past.

Seriously, how can you believe a word that comes from his age addled mouth?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:30 PM

>>You do your candidate no good by your baseless attacks.

If you feel that they are baseless attacks, how much good do you think you are doing your candidate by simply trying to turn them around?

You are not making a lot of sense here Bruce.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:34 PM

>>On the other hand, it would be remiss of you as a citizen not to question Obama's qualifications and character.

Damn right. I think we have done our questioning and have made our choice, now it is your turn.<<<

Ron is right on the money here. Obama has been well vetted, He has survived trial by Clinton.

Your gal got her governor's nomination by not being as corrupt as the other guy. She got her VP nomination by being an anti-abortion woman. Now is when the vetting must begin for her.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:44 PM

Palin thinks the founding fathers wrote the Pledge of Allegiance.


If it was good enough for the founding fathers, its good enough for me


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:45 PM

LOL!

The Pledge of Allegiance was written by a SOCIALIST!


I would love to be able to tell her that to her face and watch her reaction.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 03:11 PM

Ms. Palin has announced that her daughter Bristol (17) is pregnant. Made me smile. Shit happens.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 03:27 PM

At a brief press availability in Monroe, Mich., ABC News asked Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., if he had any response to Gov. Sarah Palin's statement that her unmarried 17-year-old daughter Bristol is pregnant.

"Let me be a clear as possible: I have said before and I will repeat again, I think people's families are off limits," Obama said, "and people's children are especially off limits.

"This shouldn't be part of our politics," he continued, "It has no relevance to Gov. Palin's performance as governor, or her potential performance as a vice president.

"And so I would strongly urge people to back off these kinds of stories," he said. "You know my mother had me when she was 18, and how a family deals with issues and, you know, teenage children, that shouldn't be the topic of our politics and I hope that anybody who is supporting me understands that's off limits."


Obviously, Obama's character speaks in higher tones than McCain's.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 03:31 PM

"I just made the point that David Frum, Bush's former speechwriter, has said, in no uncertain terms that Obama is ready to be President and Palin is not."


                   Just goes to show, this Frum feller ain't any too smart!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 03:34 PM

I note with interest that Riginslinger has nothing to say about Palin's lack of knowledge on the Pledge of Allegiance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 03:38 PM

"The Pledge of Allegiance was written by a SOCIALIST!"

               Read the entry. The guy was a Baptist Minister. If he was a socialist as well, he must have been bi-polar.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 03:38 PM

"Just goes to show, this Frum feller ain't any too smart!"

You are right Riginslinger, anyone who would supply Bush with things to say cannot be the sharpest tool in the shed.   You would think if the man was any sort of speechwriter, he could at least make the speaker look like he had an ounce of brains.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 03:41 PM

"Read the entry. The guy was a Baptist Minister. If he was a socialist as well, he must have been bi-polar. "

You are really getting desparate when you try to twist the obvious. Spin doctor is not a good career move for you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 03:44 PM

This baptist minister/socialist, Rig, was not one of our founding fathers, would you agree? :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 03:51 PM

He was a socialist.

http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Socialism

Believe it or not, it is possible to be both a Christian and a socialist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 03:54 PM

The reason that is possible, by the way, is because Christianity is a religion and socialism is an economic system. To say that a Christian must be bipolar in order to also be a socialist would be like saying that a Christian would have to be bipolar to also be a capitalist. It's a non-sequitur.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 03:57 PM

Read the book, Carol. "Religion is the opiate of the masses."
             There is no was to effectively organize a state when you have buffoons running around paying homage to non-existent gods.
But better a socialist than a minister, I say.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 04:01 PM

I did not know you were such a tap dancer Rigin


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 04:03 PM

Grab your coat and get your hat
Leave your worries on the doorstep
Life can be so sweet
On the sunny side of the street


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 04:12 PM

and so well rehearsed!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 04:21 PM

If people embrace a socialist economic system, they're socialists. Paying homage to gods (non-existant or otherwise) doesn't change that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 04:29 PM

I'm pretty sure that "religion is the opiate of the masses was written by a Marxist." ;-)

There are social democratic parties all over Europe who hate and denounce most of Marx's more cynical and radical ideas.

Also remember that Hitler was a Nationalist Socialist and hardly a follower of Karl Marx.

Sometimes I think your political association is Groucho Marxist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 04:38 PM

he Pledge of Allegiance was written in 1892 by Francis Bellamy (1855-1931), a Baptist minister, a Christian Socialist, and the cousin of Socialist Utopian novelist Edward Bellamy (1850-1898). Bellamy's original "Pledge of Allegiance" was published in the September 8th issue of the popular children's magazine The Youth's Companion as part of the National Public-School Celebration of Columbus Day, a celebration of the 400th anniversary of Christopher Columbus's discovery of America, conceived by James B. Upham.

Read the quote...



A


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 04:50 PM

It might be fun for some historian to actually count the number of founding fathers who have actually recited the pledge. Certainly not all of them. No doubt a lot of them had passed on by 1892. In fact if a man had, lets say signed the Declaration of independence in his twenties, he would have had to survive to about one hundred and thirty to have even heard of the pledge.

Is this Sarah Barracuda's first "Dan Quayle" moment?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 05:14 PM

Amos -- you beat me to it. I was getting ready to post Obama's response to the news of the pregnancy. The man has class--kids are (or should be) clearly off limits. NPR just indicated that the couple will marry -- were it my daughter, I would welcome the young man into our home but BEG them not to marry. If they are still together in five years, then they can get married........but here speaks a woman who offered birth control to both of her daughters when they were 15-- both of whom accepted. They are now 27 and 23, lovely healthy young women, with balanced views of sex and NO CHILDREN. Both are in long term committed relationships and one will be getting married next year....sorry, this is probably thread creep but I am so proud of them and feel so strongly that babies having babies is just a terrible idea.......and Just Say NO doesn't do it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 05:21 PM

TRUBRIT

I admire your parenting choices.
Your daughters are lucky to have you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 06:03 PM

sorry...


Obama on Palin

Politico's Carrie Budoff Brown reports: At a press avail in Monroe, Mich., Barack Obama on Palin: "Back off these kinds of stories."

"I have said before and I will repeat again: People's families are off limits," Obama said. "And people's children are especially off-limits. This shouldn't be part of our politics. It has no relevance to Gov. Palin's performance as a governor or her potential performance as a vice president. So I would strongly urge people to back off these kinds of stories. You know my mother had me when she was 18 and how a family deals with issues and teenage children, that shouldn't be a topic of our politics."

On charges that his campaign has stoked the story via liberal blogs:

"I am offended by that statement. There is no evidence at all that any of this involved us," he said. "Our people were not involved in any way in this, and they will not be. And if I thought there was somebody in my campaign who was involved in something like that, they would be fired."


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 06:21 PM

Democrats should be ashamed of suggesting that drug addled Cindy McCain is pregnant with Karl Rove's child when Rush Limbaugh orally impregnated her.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 06:33 PM

Apparently the Barracuda's brain is just as nimble as McCains and she has as good a grasp of fact as does Geo. Dumbya.

What more could a NeoCon BuShite wish for!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 06:33 PM

At this point it appears Palin has a reputation for fighting corruption. That makes the allegation that she had her brother-in-law, a member of the Alaska police fired because of how he was treating her sister, particularly sensitive. At this point she defends herself by saying that he was fired for other reasons.   But this issue is absolutely crucial--and if she does not come out of it squeaky clean, she has just sunk McCain's candidacy.

I also hope everybody reads the Huffington Post article cited earlier. The author makes the excellent point that the Palin candidacy will probably have the effect of lighting the fire under Hillary that nothing else could-- to break her neck working for Obama, rather than see this arriviste take her place as the " leading woman candidate for president".


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: DougR
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 06:42 PM

Donuel: you are a real piece of work.

Alice: So you argue that Obama has scads of executive experience? Where? Doing what? For that matter what executive experience does Joe Biden have? He is a professional senator.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 06:44 PM

The thing that bothers me most isn't that this woman is a red-neck with a bad temper but that there are one heck of alot of Americans poised to vote against their own interests just so that they won't have to vote for a black man and who might one day be wonderin' what the Hell made them vote that way...

In an intellegent world where people are, ahhhhhh, eductaed the selection of this woman should have given Obama a 20 point jump..,.

Beam me up, Scotty... There's very little intellegent life left down here...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 06:47 PM

Doug, I don't think what you are calling "executive experience" is the issue in being a good president. Intelligence and judgment are more important - as Dubya has shown in his failure to be a good president. This is just a red herring, the 'executive' label. There are plenty of examples of good presidents where were not governors or in business and plenty of bad presidents who were governors or in business (George Bush as the worst).


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 06:49 PM

What she evidently did is she fired Walt Monegan, public safety commissioner, after he refused to fire a state trooper who had divorced--and possibly mistreated--her sister. She says she fired Mr. Monegan for other reasons, having to do with the budget, etc. But at this point it's unclear--and the Alaska Legislature is investigating. Monegan says she never told him to fire the trooper, but he had pressure to do so from members of her administration.

Monegan was offered a transfer to be the director of the Alaska state alcohol control board. He declined. Then he was fired.

Really murky so far--very few facts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 06:51 PM

"Beam me up, Scotty... There's very little intellegent life left down here..."


                  Bobert - You need to come up here where us Palin supporters are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Peace
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 06:53 PM

I trust you are in an area with sufficient moisture to sustain the crop to fruition. I think you are gettin' people's goat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Peace
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 06:54 PM

Dang. There's more than one goat, so I'd better pluralize that: goats.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 06:57 PM

Maybe I'll just sit back and read for a while!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 07:01 PM

"At this point it appears Palin has a reputation for fighting corruption. "

I'm not sure if she had much choice. When the FBI is investigating everyone, you need to cooperate or appear that you have something to hide.

This horsecrap about "executive experience" means nothing. Her ability to make the right decision, get people working together and instilling confidence are what any of us look for in an executive. You do not need experience to do that.   So far, I have not been impressed by her skills.   Lets see what she has to say during the campaign and debates. How she handles herself, and how ANY of the candidates handle themselves will tell the tale.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: irishenglish
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 07:59 PM

pdq said the other day- "Please start talking about issues and stop sliming people." Ok fair enough. But pdq, (just for fun) after you called me out (just for fun), challenging me on my knowledge (just for fun), did you happen to see the real answer (just for fun), after you stated what you believed was the answer (just for fun)? No, oh well, too bad, I guess you are not concerned when the sliming comes from you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 08:10 PM

...she will be occupying the position of VP, not president.

In light of McCain's age, that should surely read:

...Touch wood, she will be occupying the position of VP, not president.

True enough, 72 isn't that old these days, and he won't have to worry about getting first rate health care - but basic common sense means that the old truism that whoever is running as vice president needs to be ready to step up to the top job on day one is doubly true with a president of that age. To ignore that is just irresponsible.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 08:18 PM

RCP Average        08/29 - 08/31        --        48.8        44.3        Obama +4.5
CBS News        08/29 - 08/31        781 RV        48        40        Obama +8
CNN        08/29 - 08/31        927 RV        49        48        Obama +1
Gallup Tracking        08/29 - 08/31        2733 RV        49        43        Obama +6
Rasmussen Tracking        08/29 - 08/31        3000 LV        49        46        Obama +

Hmmmmmm...


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 08:22 PM

Rigs,

I'm tellin' Cynthia McKinney on ya'..lol...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 08:25 PM

Yep, Obama is slowly and steadily climbing in the polls.
We'll see if McCain's convention gets him that three points back.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 08:37 PM

(I think pdq's point was that the answer is only one Senator in modern history.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 08:55 PM

"I'm not sure she had much choice...". Actually she appears to have opposed her fellow Republicans in their corruption. Citing the FBI as reason is a simplistic--and, it appears, inaccurate-- explanation.

But the issue with the trooper is still crucial--and could destroy her reputation as a clean government crusader.

Obviously, many more facts will be coming out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 09:01 PM

There may be a song which will emerge from this thread yet!

Seems to me that the Canadian group had a song which began:


G------------------F----------G—F---Bb-G
'Twas in the town of Pelham one dark and drea-ry day
---F---------------------------Bb----F---G----F
We local lads was in the pub, just sipping time away-a
------G-----------------F--------------G---------F--Bb/G
When in there walked this stranger who dis-turbed our con-tem-pla-tion
---F--------------------------G---F/Bb/G/F
So we decided his facial features need-ed al-te-ra-tion.
------G--------------------F---------------G—F—Bb--G
"Now what's your name, fair stranger? We've not seen you in town."
---F---------------------------Bb-----F------G----F
He answers "David Disher. I'm a man of some re-nown-on."
-----G------------------F--------------G----F/Bb/G
Says Patrick, "Well, now, Disher, lest you think that I'm remiss,
-----F----------------------------G—F--Bb/G/F
They calls me Scrappin' Paddy, and this here is me fist!"

Chorus:
G----------------------F----G---F-----G--------F-----------G-----F---G
Oh, Fight like a wildcat , learn your lesson, up jumps Paddy with a finger miss-in'
-----------------F---G---------F------------------------------G
Poor wee fist, one finger less, for seven pound ten 'twill scarce be missed!.
-----------------------F----G---F------G-------F-----------G-----F---G
Oh, fight like a wildcat , learn your lesson, up jumps Paddy with a finger miss-in'
--------------F----G-----------F------------------------------G
Poor wee fist, great bloody mess, for seven pound ten 'twill scarce be missed!
F-------------------------G
Paddy's finger 'twill scarce be missed!

Fight on, lads and ladies!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 09:04 PM

"I'm tellin' Cynthia McKinney on ya'..lol..."


               I'll find a place to hide out!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 09:12 PM

"Citing the FBI as reason is a simplistic--and, it appears, inaccurate-- explanation."

The FBI was investigating Ted Stevens. The FBI set up the sting, not Palin.   Please tell me where my statement was inaccurate. It may simplistic, but I would think simple answers are what all of us want.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 09:17 PM

Palin wouldn't have had the resources to set up a sting on Stevens that way anyway. I can't imagine that could have happened...


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: DougR
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 09:43 PM

So? Executive experience is not necessary! Perhaps, Alice, you don't think so and I respect your opinion, but I certainly don't agree.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 09:48 PM

"Executive experience is not necessary! "

ANYONE can GET experience.   Quality, not quantity is the issue. You are clinging to a number on a piece of paper that is translating into ZERO in terms of the "real world".

You can spend a decade as a short order cook in a diner, that doesn't mean you can handle the task at the Four Seasons.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 09:53 PM

I would be interested in seeing some news articles about Palin fighting corruption in Alaska from back when she was supposed to have been doing it. So far I have not found any.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: olddude
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 09:59 PM

For me not so much experience as decision making. Both candidates showed us their first major decision making ability. Obama's pick for VP, and old workhorse who is well respected and a season vet who could walk into the presidency should the need arise. McCain's first major decision, someone completely unqualified. All I need to see


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 10:02 PM

Doug, did you vote for Richard Nixon or for Gerald Ford? Neither one of them had what you are calling executive experience. But I'm sure that did not stop you from voting for them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 10:04 PM

>>>So? Executive experience is not necessary! Perhaps, Alice, you don't think so and I respect your opinion, but I certainly don't agree.

Then you won't be voting for McCain right?

He's been a Senator and before that middle management in the Navy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 10:27 PM

Anderson Cooper just asked Obama about this 'experience' issue on CNN. He replied that recommendations he put in place in legislation post Katrina and are being successfully implemented now and the fact that he has been the executive of a much larger staff and budget than Palin has in his two year campaign should put that issue to rest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 10:31 PM

"ews continues to break regarding vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin that could, in the long term, pose serious problems to one of the main thrusts of the McCain campaign: the message of conservative reform.

The presentation of Palin as an anti-earmark, fiscally conscious pol is challenged by a review of recent political records. As mayor of Wasilla, Alaska, she hired the firm of Hoffman Silver Gilman & Blasco to help secure spending projects for her town. The expenditure apparently paid off. From 2000 through 2002, Wasilla received more than $5.5 million in federal cash for transportation and social service projects.

According to the group Citizens Against Government Waste, the city received $1 million for a bus facility in 2000. In 2001, the Wasilla Health Center was granted a half million dollars for a community mental health center. That same year the city's emergency shelter also was granted $500,000 for a transitional living program for homeless youth. A year later, the Wasilla regional dispatch center received $1 million in pork, the city was granted $1.5 million for water and sewer improvements, and received an additional $600,000 for a bus facility.

The use of the earmark system that -- as a vice presidential candidate -- Palin now criticizes continued into her tenure as governor. As the Los Angeles Times reported, the state of Alaska requested 31 earmarks worth $197.8 million for next year's federal budget. And according to Citizens Against Government Waste, Alaska received $379,669,715 in pork during fiscal year 2008, nearly $100 million more than any other state.

There are important caveats to this information: projects funded by federal earmarks are often viewed positively by voters, particularly in Alaska, and analysts argue that many earmarks serve important community functions and end up saving taxpayer funds in the long run.

But John McCain has made earmark bashing a cornerstone of his campaign, calling the spending projects a "gateway to corruption." And since taking on the responsibility of running mate, Palin too has presented herself as a thorn in the side of the earmark culture. When introduced to the public last Friday, McCain said of Palin: she "championed reform to end the abuses of earmark spending." Palin herself touted her opposition to the infamous Bridge to Nowhere, the nearly 400 million-dollar project that Alaska Sen. Ted Stevens requested and which became a rallying cry for McCain. As subsequent news reports pointed out, during her gubernatorial run in 2006, Palin backed the project and sympathized with the communities who wanted the Bridge to Nowhere money. Only when it became a national joke did she change her tune.

Making matters worse, on Monday the Washington Post reported that Palin had previously served on Ted Steven's political 527 group. The revelation is a notably thorny one for McCain. The Arizona Republican has butted heads with Stevens over spending matters (Palin, too, has challenged the longtime Senator on the matter). And Stevens was recently indicted on seven counts of corruption. On Sunday, moreover, McCain's chief surrogate and confidante, Sen. Lindsey Graham said of Palin's foreign policy experience, "if she can handle Ted Stevens she can handle Russia."..."


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 10:45 PM

"...did you vote for Richard Nixon or for Gerald Ford? Neither one of them had what you are calling executive experience."


                   Both of them served as VP's, Nixon for 8 years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 10:48 PM

But the vp is not executive experience, either. Like I said, this whole 'executive' thing about Palin is a red herring.
She is a poorly educated and relatively unexperienced politician. Period.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 10:50 PM

Well, whatever one thinks of Sarah Palin, I don't see how in could be determined that seving as VP is not executive experience. They have staffs and function as executives in every sense of the word.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 11:24 PM

"simplistic"--- Question is when the FBI started investigating. We would need the exact date--with source.   That will determine if her anti-corruption push started before or after. From what I understand she has in fact been a crusader for clean government from the start.

With the possible exception of the trooper problem--which, if her improper involvement is proven, will totally destroy her reputation--and McCain's chances.

We'll see if a smoking gun is found--before November.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 11:31 PM

Also, remember what Ebbie has told us on the "Bridge to Nowhere". It's an easy target--but it was to be a bridge to somewhere--only question was whether the cost was justified.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 11:32 PM

Well, they do have tapes of her doing the very thing that Monegan is saying she did. I think I read that they have at least one email as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:06 AM

I'm still trying to figure out why being a "professional" senator is a bad thing, as in do we want an amateur to represent us? Not who I want in congress!

no. 1 definition of "executive:"

a person or group of persons having administrative or supervisory authority in an organization.

as an adjective, I really like this one:         

of, pertaining to, or suited for carrying out plans, duties, etc.: executive ability.

So, talking executive ablity? Obama hands-down!

From the the NYTs some other things apparently not vetted (there's lots more in the two page article. This (choosing Palin) was a real rush job!):

Ms. Palin now has a private lawyer in a legislative ethics investigation in Alaska into whether she abused her power in dismissing the state's public safety commissioner; that she was a member for two years in the 1990s of the Alaska Independence Party, which has at times sought a vote on whether the state should secede..

While there was no sign that her formal nomination this week was in jeopardy, the questions swirling around Ms. Palin on the first day of the Republican National Convention, already disrupted by Hurricane Gustav, brought anxiety to Republicans who worried that Democrats would use the selection of Ms. Palin to question Mr. McCain's judgment and his ability to make crucial decisions.

Although The Washington Post quoted advisers to Mr. McCain on Sunday as saying Ms. Palin had been subjected to an F.B.I. background check, an F.B.I. official said Monday the bureau did not vet potential candidates and had not known of her selection until it was made public.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Barry Finn
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:07 AM

I'm so greatful for McSane's choice in Flame.

It is important if she's a crusader that trying to fire her brother-in-law was not a personnal issue but so far there's been no reasonable explantion, hopefully one will show up soon.

Biden has the knowledge & experience on fergien policy & affairs that Obama may be lacking so on the job trainning isn't an issue
but it is in reverse for McSane & Flame, espically if anyone's gonna drop dead.


CaroleC:
"I guess this shows us exactly how effective just teaching abstinence is in preventing teen pregnancies."

Susu's Hubby
What a bunch of crap, CarolC.
There's no where that "just teaches abstinence"

Well, SH that's where the bulk of Bush money has been going for the past 8 yrs & Carole's dead on right, nothing beats a complete education not even the half assed one she & the republican's keep pushing. Seeing as she hasn't done to well with sex education, well, actually on education in general, I'd say that by her record as mayor
she's been abominable in the whole of that area as well.
Further more;
Just because she fails her daughter in her education (obvious by the out come, "unplanned") she should not be allowed to fail the future of the next generation like she did her own.

By her stance on eviormental issues she's either been paid for & bought or she's so undereducated about the issues that she's to far behind to catch up. Denying science, ignoring all the phyical warning signs, esepically when in her region it's all the more evident, she's so far from green that she'll have the voter's seeing red not


She's obviouslly no student of the Constitution, she should her keep her mouth shut about things she doesn't know about it makes her look stupid, as stupid as Geo, when she does say something about them, like the Pledge of Allegiance, haven't we had enough foolishness like this in the last 8 yrs, it make's the nation look like the laughing stock of the educated world.

She's so far to the right she'll be more than more of the same, she'll be for ripe for the insane. McCain dies & we'll all be in the shit house.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:17 AM

For my part, I think her willingness to teach Creationism in the public schools and her denial of man's contribution to global warming are very troublesome. I don't see anything else to really dislike about the woman, though.
               I'm not sure I can get over those two.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:23 AM

Clearly she has energized some people here and many in the Republican base.
Her selection is a bit brilliant and a bit insane.
What she knows she will staunchly advocate but most importantly
she does not know me or millions of people like me.

The media is of course insane to put the full faith and security of the USA on one debate between her and Biden. I can tell she is a fast learner and the fact sheet she will be memorizing will be daunting for anyone. She knows about pipelines worldwide but not the people culture or history.

The experience with GWB and micro aural electronics may also be employed with good effect, yet we all know a debate performance will not show character integrity judgement and flexibility in fluid complex situations.

What I have seen is that she is not flexible in real time. She can stick to a script but going off page is dangerous except for heart felt testimony about love of family or the like.

She can effectively intimidate and insult an opponent even better than George Bush without an understanding of deeper issues and back stories.

Of course new factoids will come to light about teenage pregnancy and DWI but all will be forgiven being a God fearing Christian family.

Being chosen after one interview/meeting is extraordinary. Even Ruby Tuesday servers get 3 interviews.

Since we all know McCain is mortal she will be seen in a PResidential role. 9 VP's became President at the loss of a President and 14 VP took over the Presidency by election.

How will people choose?    Most people will remember a 8 second TV segment to base thier decision about her. We may not know her but if she makes enough people believe she knows them, then she has done her job in the campaign.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 01:25 AM

Great article by Eugene Robinson...


ST. PAUL, Minn. -- Has anyone noticed that Sarah Palin's central claim to political fame is a fraud? She represents herself as a fiscal conservative who abhors pork-barrel projects and said no thanks to the "bridge to nowhere" -- a $398 million span that would have linked Ketchikan, Alaska, to its airport across the Tongass Narrows. But as mayor of Wasilla (pop. 9,780), she hired a Washington lobbyist to bring home the bacon. And just two years ago as a candidate for governor, she supported both the Ketchikan bridge and the congressional earmark that would have paid most of its cost.

I know, we're not supposed to pay attention to such inconvenient details. We're supposed to be dazzled by how unaffected she is, how plain-spoken, how "genuine."

Indeed, if you don't get hung up on her actual record, Palin simply is who she is. It's not her fault that she's a former Miss Wasilla with a campy "Northern Exposure" vibe, doctrinaire social-conservative views and no discernible qualifications for being vice president. It's undeniable that people in Alaska apparently like her well enough, though they seem to have been even more shocked than the rest of us when she was named to the Republican ticket. In any event, she's not the one who created this farcical situation.

We learned last week that John McCain is not who he is -- not, at least, who he claims to be. The steady, straight-talking, country-first statesman his campaign has been selling is a fictional character. The real McCain is either alarmingly cynical or dangerously reckless.

You will recall that McCain gave the same prime criterion for choosing a running mate that every presidential candidate gives: someone who is ready to step in as president if, heaven forbid, the need arises. Barack Obama echoed those words before picking Joe Biden, who is about as prepared as a vice presidential candidate could ever be.

You will also recall that McCain and his supporters have been lecturing us about the grave and urgent dangers our country faces -- Islamic fundamentalism, the resurgence of Russia and other geopolitical threats. In a menacing world, McCain says, he will keep America safe.

So, at 72 and with a history of cancer, how could McCain choose a vice presidential nominee who has, let's face it, zero experience in foreign affairs? Being the nominal commander in chief of the Alaska National Guard doesn't count, unless you think Vladimir Putin is about to order an invasion across the Bering Strait.

At a time when the nation also confronts enormous challenges at home, Palin has, um, slightly more than zero experience in domestic affairs. The reason most people move to Alaska is that it's different from the rest of the country. Salmon fishing and snowmobile racing are not front-page news in Ohio, Pennsylvania or Florida.

McCain's political calculation in choosing Palin is obvious. Social conservatives, who had been unexcited by his candidacy, are ecstatic that he has picked a running mate who staunchly opposes abortion, favors the teaching of "intelligent design" in the public schools and generally embraces the agenda of the religious right.

I have my doubts about the other objective of McCain's gambit: to win the votes of blue-collar women who supported Hillary Clinton. For one thing, these voters disagree sharply with Palin on most of the issues. For another, initial indications are that many women were insulted at the notion that they would automatically swoon over any candidate who happened to have two "X" chromosomes. Republicans tend to have a comically simplistic view of how "identity politics" works. They should recall how African-Americans reacted when Clarence Thomas was named to the Supreme Court.

Whatever the political impact, so much for the John McCain we thought we knew. In choosing Palin, he cynically did what his party is always accusing Democrats of doing: He selected a running mate based on her potential ability to appeal to targeted segments of the electorate, rather than for her honestly assessed ability to lead the nation should the occasion arise.

The other thing we learned about McCain is that he is willing to take an enormous gamble based on limited information. He only met Palin once before summoning her for a final interview. He realized he needed to shake up the presidential race, and that's what he did. But we are reminded, if we did not realize it before, that the three things not to expect from a McCain presidency are caution, prudence and a willingness to always put the nation's interests above his own.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/09/palin_pick_puts_politics_ahead.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 01:31 AM

Well, the Juneau people I know well all agree that this is a most interesting - I do believe that tonight they used the term 'amusing' - election. There were six of us there and they all know the governor better than I - three of them work for the state - they are of the belief that McCain hasn't a clue as to what he has signed onto. Palin, they say, is not only short-sighted but VERY stubborn. And LOUD.

Anyone care to make a little bet about the outcome of this? BEFORE the election? lol


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 02:04 AM

Here's an interesting perspective...


Why Palin? McCain v. Rove

"Why did John McCain select Sarah Palin as his running mate? The real reason is that he made an impulsive decision to prove his independence in reaction to pressure from Karl Rove, who was lobbying for Mitt Romney, as I explain in a forum on Firedoglake.com on my new book, The Strange Death of Republican America: Chronicles of a Collapsing Party.

I explain the inside story, according to sources close to the McCain campaign:

On Palin: My information is that Karl Rove wanted Romney and pushed him. McCain pushed back. He really wanted Lieberman. That was completely out of the question. Palin is the result. One element of the Palin nomination is McCain establishing himself apart from the Bush/Rove political operation, even as his campaign manager, Steve Schmidt, is one of their creatures. From the outside, it's often hard to figure out how vicious and divided the Republicans can be with each other.

I further explain that McCain rationalized his hasty choice as an appeal to the Republican base:

On McCain and the GOP base: Conventions are real tests of party unity, as we've just seen with the Democrats. McCain still has to pass the test through his own convention. Palin, among other things, enables him to bring along the social conservatives, or it ought to do so. Once McCain receives the nomination he is freer to move to the center. He is already campaigning more as a "maverick" and behind the scenes he is in some conflict with both Bush and Rove on policy and politics. If we had a sensate political press corps they might report on these abrasions.

McCain's emergence as the GOP nominee represents the fracturing of the conservative Republican dominance of the party, shattered as a consequence of George W. Bush's radicalism. I explain the story of how the Republicans came apart in "The Strange Death of Republican America." On the ruins, McCain must attempt to piece together the broken shards. In McCain's case, the political motive has combined with the temperamental. Thus, Sarah Palin."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sidney-blumenthal/why-palin-mccain-v-rove_b_122841.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 02:42 AM

"Here's the deal: Palin is the latest G.O.P. distraction. She's meant to shift attention away from the real issue of this campaign — the awful state of the nation after eight years of Republican rule. The Republicans are brilliant at distractions. Willie Horton was a distraction. The chatter about gays, guns and God has been a long-running distraction. And we all remember the Swift-boat campaign.

If you want a real issue, forget all of the above and revisit Monday's front page of The New York Times. Hundreds of families are being forced out of their homes each month in Louisville, Ky., because of mortgage foreclosures. With record numbers of poor and homeless students, the public schools are struggling.

The crisis has only been made worse by fiscal difficulties facing the schools. Higher energy and other costs, combined with a $43 million cut in state aid, have left the school system in a sorry state.

The reason this should be high on the presidential campaign agendas is that the problems in Louisville are widespread. As Sam Dillon of The Times reported: "As 50 million children return to classes across the nation, crippling increases in the price of fuel and food, coupled with the economic downturn, have left schools from California to Florida to Maine cutting costs."

Even as these districts are cutting back, wrote Mr. Dillon, "the number of poor and homeless children is rising."

That is the kind of substantive issue the Democrats should be focused on: how to educate America's children and improve the quality of their lives; how to bring health care to those going without; how to put America back to work.

To their credit, Senators Obama and Biden seem unwilling to jump aboard the bash-Ms.-Palin bandwagon. Both have been exceedingly mild in their comments about the Alaska governor." (NYT Ed)


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 02:56 AM

Senior Analyst for Jazeera in Washington does not think it was a wise choice.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 05:43 AM

The British conservative political commentator and journalist John O'Sullivan (the founder and co-chairman of the New Atlantic Initiative, an international organization dedicated to reinvigorating and expanding the Atlantic community of democracies) takes rather the opposite point of view.

The party's just starting for John McCain

It's possible to find an 'alternative' viewpoint for anything but ---it's just someone's view.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: irishenglish
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 06:58 AM

heric- as I pointed out, there have been TWO men up to this election who went directly from the Senate to the Presidency. pdq claimed there was only one, Kennedy, forgetting of course Warren G Harding.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 07:16 AM

Word on the street is that McCain has folks back in Alaska "re-vetting" Palin... Man, I thought that was supposed to be done before hand???

Kinda plays nicely into Obama's charges that McCain has some major problems with judegment...

Oughtta be interesting to watch the Repub PR spinsters try to make chicken salad out of what is beginnin' to look like chicken sh*t...
I can hardly wait for that spin...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 07:31 AM

"they do have tapes of her doing the very thing..."---source, please.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 07:34 AM

Well it looks like wait we will. Now there is Hurricane Hanna, and right behind that Tropical Storm Ike. It would be kind of ironic, though, if Ike blows in and saves the Republican convention at the last minute.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 07:42 AM

"the very thing..."

Source--and direct quotes, please. Let's try to change the balance in political threads to more facts and fewer smears--even directed at politicians.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 07:47 AM

Kinda' reminded here of Tom Eagleton. McGovern could never recover from that unwise choice and Eagleton had a lot more going for him then Sarah Palin.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:00 AM

For that matter what executive experience does Joe Biden have?
DougR



Talking about pieces of work,Douggie, precisely what sort of exeperience did George W. Bush have besides running a baseball team into the ground?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:09 AM

Be fair Greg......He also ran several oil businesses into the ground as well!

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:10 AM

Anchorage Daily News 19 Sept 2004:    "In early September 2003, Palen said, she called Clark (Alaska Chief of Staff) for help after staffers complained Ruedrich" (fellow Republican)" was conducting party business on the job".

She resigned from the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission in January 2004 partly in protest over what she called "lack of ethics" of fellow Republican members.

This is before the start of the investigation of Ted Stevens. Therefore it appears inaccurate to state that her concern with ethics resulted from fear of the FBI investigation of Stevens.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:16 AM

Also, Ebbie's point is particularly apt. Will Palen, as a loose cannon (amazingly similar to McCain himself) say enough weird things to ridicule the McCain ticket?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:17 AM

"Palin"


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:21 AM

Keeping in mind that all the "Bushisms" were not enough to sink the Bush ticket.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:25 AM

"Talking about pieces of work,Douggie, precisely what sort of exeperience did George W. Bush have besides running a baseball team into the ground?"


               The Governor of Texas, maybe?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 09:13 AM

I think it was a piss poor choice, so much so that It makes me question if McCain is any more fit to lead than Oh Bummer.

I really don't care who gets elected anymore. It's like a choice between McDonald's or Wendy's Both are so mediocre.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 09:21 AM

Washington Post:

A Typical Middle-Class Struggle

On the Palin situation: It immediately struck me that Sarah Palin was chosen as a candidate who understands middle-class family struggles, and this is a pretty typical one. On the scale of family secrets, a pregnant teen marrying her boyfriend is hardly shocking. It is personally wrenching for all involved. But, if properly handled by caring parents, it can sometimes result in the arrival of new life and a new family. And a new life is always a good and glorious thing, whatever the circumstances of his or her birth.

What does all this say about Palin herself? That she is a hypocrite? Absurd. She seems to have acted in a manner entirely consistent with her religious beliefs. (If she had urged her daughter to get an abortion, that would be hypocrisy.) That Palin is somehow unqualified for office because she couldn't "control" her own family? This is a foolish, cartoon version of Victorianism.

There are only two things that would concern me. If Palin had not informed the McCain campaign about this situation before her selection, it would mean she has poor judgment. But the McCain campaign has said it was informed. It would also disturb me if Palin had not fully discussed her decision to run for vice president with her pregnant daughter, who will now be exposed to a lot of vicious ridicule. In light of this family struggle, I hope Palin's decision to join the Republican ticket was a family decision.

Those who believe that a family situation of this sort will alienate or anger evangelicals have never actually met an evangelical. Just listen to James Dobson's Focus on the Family broadcast, or read one of his books. Responding to his evangelical listeners and readers, he addresses every imaginable family challenge, from adultery to child sexual abuse to bedwetting. Evangelical Christianity (in most modern forms) is not about the achievement of perfection, it is about the acceptance of forgiveness and healing. Nearly every evangelical knows and respects someone who has dealt with this kind of situation with dignity and with God's constant help.

And I can't imagine why Palin's family situation would alienate middle-ground women voters either. Is it really the expectation of modern women that their leaders and role models have perfect, perpetually cheerful families?

All this said, I still feel terrible for the Palins and their daughter (and the poor guy she intends to marry). The slimiest elements of the Internet culture will be after them. But Americans, I believe and trust, are more decent than this vileness.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 10:15 AM

I concur the pg shtick will win some evangelicals; but not the Abstinence Makes the Heart Grow Fonder crowd.

On the whole Palin's selection was a risky, hail Mary tactic. It gave the finger to the Karl Rove machine, which is good.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 10:19 AM

"The Governor of Texas, maybe?"

Karl Rove was governor of Texas... Bush merely kept the chair warm. The question can be simply removed one step...did Bush have any experience that qualified him to govern a state?


Regarding the Palin's daughter: It is sad that these days EVERYTHING seems to be grist for the mill. I think is is partially that 27 pundits, having been hired to talk incessantly, need an infinite amount of things to talk about!
It was beyond irony last night to hear the news director of MSNBC say.. 'Next, we'll examine whether Gov. Palin's daughter's pregnancy will affect the race...or should we even be TALKING about this?'

They have to have a discussion on the air over whether they SHOULD be discussing it on the air?

There are legitimate issues about whether Palin is qualified and whether she has relevant ethical problems...her daughter's situation is NOT relevant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: olddude
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 10:29 AM

Just read on the web news. I guess she was arrested 22 years ago for drunk driving .. it just keeps getting better doesn't it

Palin News


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: olddude
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 10:32 AM

Sorry it was her husband I stand corrected


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: SINSULL
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 10:33 AM

Another total non-issue distracting the gullible American public from the serious ones. i can not wait for this election to be over...

By the way, I am genuinely pissed that I was awakened on a Sunday morning by a pair of Baptists. Baptists! I finally got rid of the JWs and now Baptists! I am tempted tog ovisit them at about 3Am on a Wednesday to discuss Atheism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 10:37 AM

'Todd Palin was arrested 22 years ago on a drunken-driving charge.'

This is really scraping the barrel!

Hilary Rosen, a Democratic commentator, said the issue is whether Palin would try to impose her personal choices.
Rosen said Democrats should "not be cowed" from including Palin's family life in the political discussion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 10:50 AM

Bill,

Of course, Bush was qualified to be president... Hey, he'd stuck the taxpayers of Arlington, Texas for $164M, for which they are still payin'... What better expeerience than rippin' off taxpayers does the job require???

*g*

B;~)


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 10:51 AM

You are right, Bobert. The vetting left a lot to be discovered: NYTs.

Whether her daughter should be a subject of discussion or not, their hypocrisy opens it up, imo:

Palin herself said she opposes funding sexual-education programs in Alaska.

"The explicit sex-ed programs will not find my support," she wrote in a 2006 questionnaire distributed among gubernatorial candidates.

McCain's position on contraceptives and teen pregnancy issues has been difficult to judge on the campaign trail, as he appears uncomfortable discussing such topics. Reporters asked the presumptive GOP presidential nominee in November 2007 whether he supported grants for sex education in the United States, whether such programs should include directions for using contraceptives and whether he supports President Bush's policy of promoting abstinence.

"Ahhh, I think I support the president's policy," McCain said.

When reporters pressed McCain whether the government should provide contraceptives or counseling on contraceptives, he replied, "You've stumped me." McCain said later that he was sure he opposed government spending on contraceptives.


And this from the prospective father:

On a MySpace page subsequently taken down, Johnston boasts, 'I'm a f - - -in' redneck' who likes to snowboard and ride dirt bikes. 'But I live to play hockey. I like to go camping and hang out with the boys, do some fishing, shoot some s- - - and just f - - -in' chillin' I guess.' 'Ya f - - - with me I'll kick [your] ass,' he added. He also claims to be 'in a relationship,' but states, 'I don't want kids.'"


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 10:52 AM

MOOSE HUNT


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 10:52 AM

"Talking about pieces of work,Douggie, precisely what sort of exeperience did George W. Bush have besides running a baseball team into the ground?"


GregF,

For your information.....The Rangers have always sucked. Don't blame it on George.



Hubby


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 11:02 AM

the prospective father is yet to mature into a full fledged conservative but his heart is in the far right spot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 11:11 AM

Maybe it's not too late to save him!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 11:12 AM

I have a shiny quarter that says Palin will NOT be on the ticket. They have a day or two to change their minds.

Sure..I could lose my quarter, but wow...what a dilemma the Republicans have now - continue with a candidate that seems a bit awkward, or look foolish having to do an "Eagleton" and replace her....

Does the name Harriet Meiers ring any bells? ...vetting seems to be an art form the Republicans need to polish.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 11:33 AM

"They have staffs" says Riginslinger

Members of Congress have staffs, too.
You are grasping at straws to give her credibility.
It's not working.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 11:40 AM

As to the discussion of teen-age pregnacy, I also feel it is a family decision, not a public nor political one.

Hopefully, the young girl had the family support to make her decision unhampered by the public and political spotlight.


Our family went through a similar situation and we wisely (for us) supported our daughter to deliver a healthy child and not marry at this time.

When our daughter broke the news to us she asked our guidance if she should to marry the father to "save personal and family embarassment, and possible future embarassment for the child (born out of wedlock)."

Our advice was that these reasons alone were not sufficient factors on whether she should marry. We suggested that this decision should be made after the birth, when there was less pressure on the future young father and mother. She followed our advice and after two years, did marry the father. I feel this was a wise choice for our family. We do live in times where there is greater public understanding and acceptance of yhese "situations".

I welcome hearing of similar experiences or perspectives to share on this topic, regardless of the choice made.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 11:49 AM

I was a teen mother when abortions and contraceptives for under 18 were illegal. It was my desire, at the time (what did I know?!) and just expected, that we would marry. I was 16 and he was 19. It lasted five years and two kids. It was ugly, hard, abusive, and no I did not come from an abusive background, but he did, and not something I would wish on any child. I do NOT regret for one moment the beautiful children I have from that, but they, too,could have started out with much safer, dependable lives had I not been married to their father, imo.

The Palins are idiots, imo, for sanctioning the marriage of these two kids, esp. in light of what the boy had written online. Best that she have the baby, if she wants, and they learn to be parents without the added stress/baggage of teen marriage AND the national spotlight on them. That spotlight will be on them no matter what, thanks to McCain and her mom.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 11:50 AM

The family pregnancy is none of anyone's business, a stress for the young woman, the under-qualified young man, and the young woman's mother and father. It is a domestic scene with no bearing on the commons and its concerns.

EXCEPT for those people who believe they have a right to meddle and muck about with individual moral codes and choices on vacuous and immaterial grounds. For them, the fact if an unwed pregnancy is "supposed to be" a sure sign of a lack of moral fiber and proper upbringing, and they will use this stilted, frozen-in-place style of thought to therefore have a lot of concern about Palin fille.

Oddly enough, most folks who have such rigid and moralizing outlooks are those who view themselves as firmly to the right of Reagan.
They make very poor leaders, IMHO--tending toward authoritarianism and spending too much time worrying about whether anyone is leaking any passion or enjoyment into the room.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 11:50 AM

'Welcome to In Entertainment where you will find the latest up-to-date gossip on the entertainment scene.'

top story?
'Levi Johnston MySpace page describes Bristol Palin baby father'

Says it all really - sigh!

Whatever happened to political discourse - is this what the election of a president has sunk to?

Even Spoof headlibes can't compete with this sick reality


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: olddude
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:00 PM

It hasn't hit the bottom of the barrel, it actually below the barrel and yes that is what it has sunk too ... it will get worse before it gets better. That is why we get stuck with crap leaders all the time. The best people do not want to put up with this stuff on either side of the fence. I am pleased that there a few like Obama that actually want to make a difference IMO for what it is worth


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:01 PM

"I recently found out some facts about this Alaskan governor and mayor of a small town that should send chills up anyone with common sense, but there are still Republicans out there with a dimly lit bulb. Here are the facts:

1) She was elected Alaska's governor a little over a year and a half ago. Her previous office was mayor of Wasilla, a small town outside Anchorage. She has no foreign policy experience. (not even out of Alaska)

2) Palin is strongly anti-choice, opposing abortion even in the case of rape or incest. (tell that to the thousands of raped girls every month)

3) She supported right-wing extremist Pat Buchanan for president in 2000. (She sounds scarier)

4) Palin thinks creationism should be taught in public schools.(How about the Mayan belief, too that the world will end in 2012?)

She's doesn't think humans are the cause of climate change. (Yeah, it's the aliens)

She's solidly in line with John McCain's "Big Oil first" energy policy. She's pushed hard for more oil drilling and says renewables won't be ready for years. She also sued the Bush administration for listing polar bears as an endangered species—she was worried it would interfere with more oil drilling in Alaska. (Way out of touch of reality when over 95% of the "experts" disagree with this fantasy)

How closely did John McCain vet this choice? He met Sarah Palin once at a meeting. They spoke a second time, last Sunday, when he called her about being vice-president. Then he offered her the position. (Maybe he ran an ad in Craigs list)

.."

(LA TImes letter-writer)


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:04 PM

like I said.....

'The story above is a satire or parody. It is entirely fictitious.'


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:11 PM

I have in fact been looking for Palin photos of all kinds and what I found is this...

With each passing day, photos are vanishing on the web.

By today there are only the 6 stock photos remaing.

No more pictures of Palin shooting guns.

Today I did find a photo of her daughter aiming a hand gun.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:28 PM

Wired Magazine's Brandon Keim's article: McCain's VP Wants Creationism Taught in School stated


'Republican vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin wants creationism taught in science classes.

In a 2006 gubernatorial debate, the soon-to-be governor of Alaska trotted out the usual creationist education canard: "Teach both. You know, don't be afraid of education. Healthy debate is so important, and it's so valuable in our schools. I am a proponent of teaching both."'

An opponent of creationism however comments on line

'This is all true as far as it goes, but it's a bit dishonest of Keim not to quote the rest of Palin's statements in the article he linked: 'Creation science' enters the race.

In an interview Thursday, Palin said she meant only to say that discussion of alternative views should be allowed to arise in Alaska classrooms:

"I don't think there should be a prohibition against debate if it comes up in class. It doesn't have to be part of the curriculum."

She added that, if elected, she would not push the state Board of Education to add such creation-based alternatives to the state's required curriculum.

Members of the state school board, which sets minimum requirements, are appointed by the governor and confirmed by the Legislature.

"I won't have religion as a litmus test, or anybody's personal opinion on evolution or creationism," Palin said.'

.....to quote just the first part of her statements on creationism and ignore the second is misleading; because in the clarification she's describing a position that doesn't cause me (a staunch anti-creationist) any discomfort.'


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:32 PM

Well said, Emma. It does no-one any good to twist things to make them seem worse than they are! And I speak as one who has occasionaly done so.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:39 PM

btw I am totally oppoaed to Sarah Palin's views on abortion, even in the case of rape or incest, as I respect a woman's right to choose (including the right to raise a child with Down's Syndrome)

However just trotting out ridiculous (not to mention dishonest) comments like some that have posted just distracts from very real concerns like this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:39 PM

Creationism
Intelligent Design
Evolution

All are theories.
None have been proven.


Why not teach all theories?

You are for choice, after all, aren't you?

Be consistent.

Hubby


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:40 PM

It's hard to imagine why everybody is down on Pat Buchanan. He was the only rational voice on immigration in the 2000 election.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:47 PM

Hub:

A scientific theory is a very different thing than a vacuous, superstitious one.

Calling them all "theories" in the same breath is extremely misleading, disingenuous and intentionally, or not, an alteration of the facts that evolution is supported by a hundred years of hard physical evidence, ranging from the fossil record to genetic studies to actual experimental demonstration of the evolutionary principles in the lab.

No such body of evidence supports the other two models you mention, which is why they are deemed non-scientific. They are speculations, just like the Flying Spaghetti Monster.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:48 PM

I hope you are wrong, Bill... I'd love to have Ms. Palin on the Repub ticket almost as much as I'd like to write the Obama ad that goes something like this:

Picture and text: Palin railing against lobbiests and earmarks (10 seconds) then...

*The Voice* (female): "As Mayor of Wasilla, Alaska, Ms. Palin and her lobbiest friends who were well connected to indicted Ted Stevens bilked the US Treasury out of $27M in earmarks. That amounts to over $4000 for every man, woman and child. That's not straight talk. That's double talk."

Please, Repubs... Please keep Palin... Please!!!!

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:55 PM

Picking Palin is a Rove set-up. She is a figurehead for the religious "right" and an attempt to appeal to the emotions of women as a reaction to Hillary. The real issue that she will
try to foist on the debate is "The right to choose". This election will be about Roe v. Wade.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:56 PM

Thank you Amos for trying to spin the argument with your big words and total disregard for anything other than to what you subscribe to.

The one thing that gets me though on the whole Obama vs Palin story is that Obama is running for president while she is vp choice. Why are you guys trying to discredit a vp choice while trying to defend your presidential choice.

Does she really create that much of a threat to you?

What about the historical precendence being set for this election, Amos?

History will be made here.
You vigorously spouted your pride in that whenever Obama accepted the nomination. What about now?
You can still be proud and not support someone at the same time.

Either the first black president or the first female vp will be elected to office.

Something definitely needs to be said about that.


Hubby


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: irishenglish
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:59 PM

Susu's Hubby-Creationism and Intelligent Design are faith based theories. They cannot be taught solely of themselves in public schools. Evolution can be. You want to teach them, do so in private school or Sunday school. Intelligent Design has been all but debunked anyway in the Kitzmiller vs. Dover School District case anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 01:00 PM

Hub:

I am very proud that, for the second time in our history, a woman has been selected to run for V.P.

What I said up thread about evolution is not ":just my view of things" but a summary of facts. There are things called facts, and they are different than opinions and wishful thinking, and also different than speculations.

"God made the world" is a speculation. "There is a large collection of evidence in support of the principle of evolution and natural selection" is a fact.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 01:00 PM

The suggestion thar working as Vice President will provide adequate "executive experience" is completely irrelevant.   A vice-president needs to be able to take on the role of president on day one.

The point is, it is always perfectly possible that by the time the inauguration comes around the person elected president might no longer even be alive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 01:01 PM

Teddy Roosevelt: "I can be President of the United States, or I can control [my daughter]. I cannot possibly do both."


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 01:06 PM

I have to make a correction to my previous post. It wasn't Palin herself, it was her administration and her husband who made the calls, one of which is on tape...

http://www.adn.com/monegan/story/492964.html?loc=interstitialskip


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 01:13 PM

Bush ran a baseball team, several oil businesses, and the state of Texas into the ground. That's a lot of experience.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 01:24 PM

"Creationism
Intelligent Design
Evolution

All are theories.
None have been proven."

*tsk*... evolution has been documented and studied in creatures which reproduce quickly. Evidence for it has been documented in Anthropology and Palentology...etc... by inferring that more complex organisms evolve just as the simpler ones do. Calling this 'just' theories shows a lack of comprehension of what 'theory' and 'proof' mean and what actually constitutes evidence.



back to the topic: Palin's comprehension of these issues seems to be about the same as Hubby's.... she is now being fed talking points and such to blunt and 'explain' her extreme views. I doubt it will work.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: mg
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 01:26 PM

Again, I do not think she should be the VP. Teenagers get pregnant all the time. If I had raised daughters or sons, I would hopefully have raised them to be able to raise a baby by the age of 17 or 18 and to earn some sort of living. Pregnancy is the default of young people. There have to be all sorts of obstacles put in their way in order to have a chance for it not to happen. A 17 year old in a healthy realtionship getting pregnant is nature's preferred mode. A 13 or 14 year old is a tragedy and a total failure of parental supervision. I would never force a marriage at that age or ever, but I would surely encourage it if the teens were not abusive to each other and both wanted to. How old were people even in my generation when they got married? 17 or 18 or the minute they graduated from high school was very common. How old was your Sicilian grandmother?

We infantilize young people way too much, extend adolescence way too long. She will cope, probably just fine, unless there is abuse involved, in which case get the abusing party out of the picture. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 01:32 PM

The problem with teaching creationism in the public schools is that it's the government promoting specific religions. In order to not be promoting specific religions, the schools would need to also teach all of the other creation myths of all of the other religions. Which would be impossible to do for lack of sufficient time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 01:33 PM

Did Adam and Eve make all them fossils of dinosaurs??? Geeze, that must have been alot of work... Wonder when it was that they found time to eat the forbidden fruit???

BTW, wonder if we need a Constitutional ammendment banning the teaching of evolution???

A President Palin would favor such, I'm sure, seein' as she believes in creationism...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 01:40 PM

"Either the first black president or the first female vp will be elected to office.

Something definitely needs to be said about that."

I agree, except there is one problem - her name has not been put into nomination and voted on by her party, and she has not accepted. Let's see how things play out in the next few days.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 01:55 PM

'A President Palin would favor such, I'm sure, seein' as she believes in creationism...'

and she is a MILF to boot too!
only in America.!
'We all accept a black man to lead us if the only other choice is a woman'

You folks who protest (as indeed you should) against the spreading of lies about Obama's religion etc should really take a closer look at the lies posted here by his supporters; it does your 'cause' no good IMO.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 02:06 PM

And if nominated, she is still running second to Ferraro.


But this is a secondary issue to the larger problem of a 73-year old with known melanoma and heart conditions entering the most stressful job in the world with a pinup girl as backup.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 02:06 PM

from the New York Times:

"Among other less attention-grabbing news of the day: it was learned that Ms. Palin now has a private lawyer in a legislative ethics investigation in Alaska into whether she abused her power in dismissing the state's public safety commissioner; that she was a member for two years in the 1990s of the Alaska Independence Party, which has at times sought a vote on whether the state should secede; and that Mr. Palin was arrested 22 years ago on a drunken-driving charge.

Aides to Mr. McCain said they had a team on the ground in Alaska now to look more thoroughly into Ms. Palin's background. A Republican with ties to the campaign said the team assigned to vet Ms. Palin in Alaska had not arrived there until Thursday, a day before Mr. McCain stunned the political world with his vice-presidential choice. The campaign was still calling Republican operatives as late as Sunday night asking them to go to Alaska to deal with the unexpected candidacy of Ms. Palin."


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 02:18 PM

Emma thanks for the Real Time link.
That epsiode used two of my bits.

You are right                                     wing
I should not condemn Palin                      only her issues
I will study Creationism                            for laughs
and support our war                               on ignorance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 02:45 PM

The rasty and riotous and often irresponsible Daily News carries the following from Bloomberg:

"BLOOMBERG NEWS

Tuesday, September 2nd 2008, 1:21 PM
Pooley/Getty

The odds are not in favor of John McCain keeping Sarah Palin on his ticket, according to bettors. The smart money thinks there's a better chance Tuesday than Monday that John McCain will dump Sarah Palin as his running mate.

Before the Republican senator's presidential campaign disclosed the pregnancy of Palin's 17-year-old daughter, bookmakers in Britain and Ireland were offering 20-1 odds or higher on a bet that she would be forced off the ticket, meaning a 1 pound ($1.78) bet would pay 20 pounds. Now that same bet will pay no more than 8 pounds.

"While it is rare that a VP candidate gets dropped, it's not completely impossible," said Ken Robertson, political
betting analyst at Paddy Power Plc, a Dublin-based gambling company. "Lots of our punters are betting 'Shocking' Sarah's
days are numbered," he added, using a nickname he came up with for the first-term Alaska governor.

   The odds, based on wagers made online with Paddy Power and William Hill Plc and in their betting shops, also suggest
that McCain is less likely to win the White House because of his vice-presidential running-mate choice, announced Aug. 29.

Both gambling houses, along with rival Ladbrokes Plc, place Democrat Barack Obama, 47, as the favorite to triumph in the
contest.

"Ever since he appointed her, people have stopped betting on McCain," said David Williams of Ladbrokes in London. "He
went down like a sack of potatoes as far as the punters are concerned."
...
"


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 02:46 PM

BillDarlin'...already posted somewhere by me.:-) But, it does bear repeating!

Thanks for the video link. Maher commenting on her having five kids, "Doesn't anyone in that party understand the concept of 'pull out?'"


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 02:56 PM

"...The only thing green about Sarah Palin is her lack of experience. She has consistently supported drilling in ANWR, use of coal-burning power plants (as I write this, a new coal plant is being built in her home town of Wasilla), strip mining, and almost anything else that will unnecessarily exploit the diminishing resources of Alaska and destroy its environment.

Prior to her one year as governor of Alaska, she was mayor of Wasilla, a small red neck town outside Anchorage.The average maximum education level of parents of junior high school kids in Wasilla is 10th grade.

Unfortunately, I have to go to Wasilla every week to get groceries and other supplies, so I have continual contact with the people who put Palin in office in the first place. I know what I'm t alking about.

These people don't have a concept of the world around them or of the
serious issues facing the US. Furthermore, they don't care. So long as they can go out and hunt their moose every fall, kill wolves and bears and drive their snow mobiles and ATVs through every corner of the wilderness, they're happy. I wish I were exaggerating.
..."

You know what's really wonderful? That a redneck pixie from an outback watering hole can someday think of going all the way to Washington.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Barry Finn
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 03:00 PM

"As to the discussion of teen-age pregnacy, I also feel it is a family decision, not a public nor political one."

As far as I'm concerned it's a public debate when the mother is running as the VP & she raises her daughter the same way she'd raise the children of the state of Alaska which would carry over the the way she'd sway the nation if she gets into office.
She doesn't see the need for sex education within her family fine but education for the rest of the race helps to bring the numbers of unwanted pregnacies down. It is a problem & refusing to push education weither it be on reproductive sciences, climate & earth sciences, eviormental sciences is what we've been sorely lacking for the last 8 yrs, abstaining is not education, that's no more than an absurd request. She failed awfully as a Mayor to push education why would she do any better with the future of our nation's children?

She wants to push creationism, let her do it in the faith based schools where each faith can deceid on which theory to teach based on their different beliefs in the different theories, (would they teach it if it was their own money & not ours they were spending?). Who's gonna teach the theories believed by the those of the 1st nations, they recieve federal funds for education don't they? A bit of a catch 22 there, when religions aren't taught in public schools if the recieve federal, state or other public funding.

The issue of feuding with the Fed's over Bears may not loom largely over many heads but the fedreal protection of a spiecies, IMHO, is sacred these days, one of the few things they could be doing better but it is also one of the fews things they are doing right & one should have a pretty air-tight cause & reason to turnaround that policy. I haven't heard her reasoning but I sure hope it's better than the NRA wants it's hunters to have more targets to shoot & mostly I hope it's not a ploy to open up the ranges for the drilling of ANWR. Maybe by Nov will have an answer. Our is it only the polor bears she wants to eradicate?

I do pray & hope she stays on the ticket though. McCain couldn't have made a poorer choice & had he picked better, even Rice would've been better thought the thought of her getting in rattles my bones, he'd have had a better shot & I'd rather see him go down in flames,,,,,again.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 03:02 PM

That's a little bit of a stereotype, though. My sister and Ebbie and KT and others live in Alaska and are not redneck etc. I am NOT sticking up for Palin, but even all rednecks aren't bad, such as my dad, so...I think it's best to keep the paintbrush closer to Palin and not use it so broadly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 03:02 PM

Amos:


"That a redneck pixie from an outback watering hole can..."


Should I find an equivalent comment top make about Obama? You are well on your way to crossing the line...


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 03:09 PM

So, if he does drop Palin, would he have to drop her this week before the official nominating??? Or could she be nominated and then he drop her???

The betters kinda have me confused with their betting on whether he would drop her on Monday or Tuesday when the article is plainly published today... That would rule out Monday so I reckon they have to be talkin' about next Monday or Tuesday... That don't make no sense... Heym if I'm McCain and I realize that I've made a mistake I want her out now!!! Not two hours or two days or next week but...

...NOW!!!

As in don't let the door hit ya' on the way out...

Regardless, if this does occur or doesn't, me thinks that John has pooped in his hat, put it on and pulled it down over his ears...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Greg B
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 03:14 PM

What a disaster area---

She's wrong about teaching religious theories in public school
biology classes.

She's wrong about teaching only abstinence for contraception in
sex education--- and we can see in her own family how well it works.
And in spite of people dancing around the kids' plight, so long as
Mom is pushing a policy destined to fail, it's fair to note how
it has failed in her own back yard.

And I don't buy that we are infantalizing 17-year-olds who are
dumb enough to decide to marry in this day and age. In decades
gone by, they'd be done with their education and well into half
of their expected life-span. Now, a 17-year-old isn't through
high-school, much less the college education which is the norm
for individuals expecting to make a decent living to raise a
family. In essence, they're setting themselves up for poverty,
or for undue dependence on family, either of which is the kiss of
death for a long-lasting marital union. Yes, some make it. But
most end up like 'Brenda and Eddie.'

Nor do I find anything particularly noble about a 44-year-old
woman with three children already carrying to term a Downs
baby. I'm not going to advocate for any particular alternative,
but I can think of several that would perhaps have been better.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Barry Finn
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 03:15 PM

Amos, McCain is to stubbon to face he's made a MissTake with Flame, she'll stay, thank (I'm not religious) God.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 03:16 PM

The characterization of Palin as redneck was not mine, originally; I borrowed it from a native who was quoted extensively near the beginning of this thread.

However I agree it was a bit over the line to re-use it.

Almost as over the top as the assertions that she has a "green record" and an "ethics record" when she promotes drilling in wild-life reserves, hunting from helicopters, and keeping polar bears off the endangered species list despite the statistics of their shrinking habitats.

But you're right--I should not engage in the same mind-twisting alterations as those whom I criticize do. So I withdraw the redneck descriptor; and the pixie descriptor, too. So my sentence now becomes, "You know what's really wonderful? That a redneck pixie *&^*&% xxx&*&^$%# from an outback watering hole small town can someday think of going all the way to Washington."
A


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 03:20 PM

"During her first speech after being named as McCain's surprise pick as a running mate, Palin said she had told Congress "'thanks but no thanks' on that bridge to nowhere."

In the city Ketchikan, the planned site of the so-called "Bridge to Nowhere," political leaders of both parties said the claim was false and a betrayal of their community, because she had supported the bridge and the earmark for it secured by Alaska's Congressional delegation during her run for governor.

The bridge, a span from the city to Gravina Island, home to only a few dozen people, secured a $223 million earmark in 2005. The pricey designation raised a furor and critics, including McCain, used the bridge as an example of wasteful federal spending on politicians' pet projects.

When she was running for governor in 2006, Palin said she was insulted by the term "bridge to nowhere," according to Ketchikan Mayor Bob Weinstein, a Democrat, and Mike Elerding, a Republican who was Palin's campaign coordinator in the southeast Alaska city.

"People are learning that she pandered to us by saying, I'm for this' ... and then when she found it was politically advantageous for her nationally, abruptly she starts using the very term that she said was insulting," Weinstein said.

..." (Reuters)


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: mg
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 03:22 PM

Much better. I don't understand why the use of the term redneck is socially accepted in polite society. Also, about the First Nations people..is her husband not partially at least one? mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Wesley S
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 03:35 PM

MG - Here in the south many people use the term redneck with pride - esp since rednecks get their neck red from working in the sun. It means they are working class folks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 03:38 PM

"rednecks get their neck red from working in the sun. It means they are working class folks. "



NO WONDER Amos and other Democrats use it as an insult!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 03:49 PM

Oops my weak memory was triggered and I see I was the one to use the term "red county rednecks." I think I kind of knew it was supposed to be a purged term from my lexicon. Sorry.

But I wasn't applying it to her, and I still think this selection clinches it. There are no more issues to discuss. My best guess is still that this appointment was forced upon McCain by red county . . . . . whatever you want to call them – but I am sick of them. This selection tells me that "they" are still in charge, and they do not want my middle of the road vote – they are going forward without us. Call them neocons, hayseeds, I don't have a very nice term in mind for them. Whomever it was who unapologetically gave us Guantanamo and trillion dollar wars of choice.

McCain has far higher approval ratings than does the Republican party. Apparently he can not bend it to his will.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Alice
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 03:55 PM

According to Palin, God is on her side to get her policies through:
"I think God's will has to be done in unifying people and companies to get that gas line built, so pray for that," she said.
And she also believes it was God's plan that we go to war in Iraq. Gee, she's just like W Bush, isn't she?

From this link st:

click here
Speaking before the Pentecostal church, Palin painted the current war in Iraq as a messianic affair in which the United States could act out the will of the Lord.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 04:05 PM

Amos said:

"The smart money thinks there's a better chance Tuesday than Monday that John McCain will dump Sarah Palin as his running mate."

Was *I* not first with my 25¢ bet? Hmmm? Them Irish bookmakers are slow!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 04:14 PM

I am not going to pray for that natural gas pipeline to get built. Nope. Nope.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 04:26 PM

You were, Bill, indeed you were. But to be fair I didn't say that myself, but was quoting someone more knowledgeable about wild political bookmaking than I.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 04:30 PM

Governor Sarah Palin made history on Dec. 4, 2006, when she took office. As the 11th governor of Alaska, she is the first woman to hold the office.

She is the also the mother of 5 children and yet is is seemingly ok to contemptuously describe her as a 'pinup girl'

Now I don't agree with most (sorry, read ANY) of her policies but I think folks it is time you found a New Agenda as it is obvious (on this side of the pond) that sexism is at least as big a problem as racism in your great country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 04:33 PM

Woody Guthrie didn't see anything shamesful in the term redneck when he sang about the Ludlow Massacre:

The soldiers jumped us in the wire fence corner;
They did not know that we had these guns.
And the red-necked miners mowed down these troopers,
You should have seen those poor boys run.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 04:36 PM

Well, Emma B, I did not suggest to her that she enter beauty contests at a tender age. Neither did anyone else here. Yet she did so, presumably on her own initiative, to reach or something she deemed important to herself--winning acclaim for her shapely feminine figure and general pulchritude. Or maybe, to get the hell out of a one-horse town, I dunno.

In my book, that is what a pinup girl does. If Bobert did the same thing, he'd be a pinup girl too.



A


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: irishenglish
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 04:36 PM

If, as the McCain camp is now saying, Palin was thoroughly vetted, why did they not put out a press statement when she was at the VP announcement rally Friday? I know they may not have WANTED some of this to come out, but I'm sure they expected word was going to get out at some point. Therefore, a brief press statement acknowledging her daughter, her husband's DWI, and what ever else there may be, could have been right there, out in the open. You can accuse the press of digging and trying to find anything (and in my opinion, a 22 year old DWI is stretching it), but don't blame them when they do find things that are noteworthy and then blame it on somebody else when you could have stopped it beforehand.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 04:40 PM

I would add that she is not a MILF, in my book.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 04:44 PM

Amos...you are showing WAY too much knowledge of acronyms


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 04:46 PM

OH...sorry--but how did you know?



A


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 04:52 PM

FROM CNN's Jack Cafferty:

There's a growing sense that John McCain may not have done all his homework before making his V.P. pick.

Alaska Governor Sarah Palin is now grabbing headlines for all the wrong reasons: her 17-year-old unmarried daughter is pregnant.Palin has hired a private lawyer in the trooper probe ethics investigation. She was for the bridge to nowhere before she was against it. Palin appeared at a convention of the Alaska Independence Party — which tried to get votes on whether the state should secede from the union. Her husband was arrested 22 years ago on a DUI. And, although Palin is now railing against earmarks, she got hundreds of millions of dollars in federal funding for local projects as both governor and as mayor of Wasilla.

There's more. What about her foreign policy credentials? CNN's Campbell Brown repeatedly asked McCain spokesman Tucker Bounds last night why Palin is ready to be commander-in-chief, what qualifications she has, and to name one foreign policy decision Palin has made – Campbell never got an answer. It's reported that Palin may have only traveled overseas once, last year to Germany and Kuwait.

This has all led many to wonder how thorough of a vetting the Alaska governor got. McCain only met with Palin once and had one phone conversation with her before offering her the job. It raises serious questions about the kind of judgment McCain would use as president to make other big decisions.

Here's my question to you: Was Governor Sarah Palin properly vetted before being named John McCain's V.P.?

(COmments:

Tom from Huntington, New York writes:
The operative word here is properly. It is obvious that they gave her a quick once over and McCain decided she was it. There will be more information forthcoming about Gov. Palin. I think that by this time next week she will step down due to "family considerations".

Jennifer writes:
McCain's decision to put Palin on the ticket shows that he makes decisions based on what's good for him (without thinking or checking) and not good for the country. How could he put someone like that one melanoma away from the presidency? He went with his gut? That makes sense, because it surely wasn't a decision made with his brain.

Lyn from Petoskey, Michigan writes:
Let's see: he met her for a full fifteen minutes, no one in Alaska can remember being approached during the "process", her 17-year-old daughter is pregnant and she's under investigation for improperly using gubernatorial power? YA THINK?

Rick from Simi Valley, California writes:
Sarah Palin is looking more and more like one of those people you see on the Jerry Springer Show. I can't wait to see what future revelations come out regarding Palin and her past.

Wendy from North Carolina writes:
Good grief, I am more qualified to be V.P. if this is McCain's version of vetting! If you really want to get the Palin picture, have her debate Hillary! Now that would be fun to watch.

Mary from Baltimore writes:
If this is the judgment he used in selecting a vice president, good luck to all of us if he gets to the White House. An elderly gentleman with a history of a serious medical problem has chosen an inexperienced person from a remote village and state to be his back-up and perhaps president of the country. This is Katrina for the rest of us.

Kevin from Massachusetts writes:
I believe her name was picked from a hat. Does that count as vetted?)


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 05:02 PM

Well, I'm glad that so far, Mudcatters have listened to Barack Obama and have not made an issue of Palin's daughter's pregancy, or of her husband's 22-year-old drunk driving arrest (he's age 44 now - do the math).

I suppose the firing of the public safety chief could be an issue if it involved pressure to fire the governor's sister's ex-husband, but there is no proof of any misconduct yet.

I hate it when the debate hangs on all the really stupid stuff. I hope it doesn't stoop to that here.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 05:15 PM

http://www.alternet.org/module/printversion/97139

George Lakoff puts it succinctly.

"What Democrats have shied away from is a frontal attack on radical conservatism itself as an un-American and harmful ideology. I think Obama is right when he says that America is based on people caring about each other and working together for a better future-empathy, responsibility (both personal and social), and aspiration. These lead to a concept of government based on protection (environmental, consumer, worker, health care, and retirement protection) and empowerment (through infrastructure, public education, the banking system, the stock market, and the courts). Nobody can achieve the American Dream or live an American lifestyle without protection and empowerment by the government. The alternative, as Obama said in his nomination speech, is being on your own, with no one caring for anybody else, with force as a first resort in foreign affairs, with threatened civil liberties and a right-wing government making your most important decisions for you. That is not what American democracy has ever been about."

Palin represents all that is reprehensible about the right-wing of the US. To say that she
would be any kind of worthwhile VP is entirely specious and blind. She would destroy democracy
as we have come to know it. Ben Franklin warned us that it's a great system of government if we can keep it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 05:23 PM

"Ben Franklin warned us that it's a great system of government if we can keep it."


                   Better not lose it with Barack Obama!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 05:25 PM

"Better not lose it with Barack Obama! "

We will only get it back with Barack.   Our system of government has been skewered by the regime that has been in charge for the past 8 years. The end is near!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Sorcha
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 05:41 PM

All you seemingly racist, sexist, ageist people are making me tired. I don't suppose you could just leave it, eh?

10 pages now....isn't that enough?

So, a LOT of people think McCain made a 'poor choice'. How about wait and see what happens next?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: irishenglish
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 06:01 PM

I dunno Sorcha. I don't consider myself any of those things. Lots of threads have gone on here far longer. If the consequences of McCain's possible (see, I used a qualifier) poor choice grow day by day, why should we leave it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 06:04 PM

Racism and sexism have very specific meanings. Asking a question regarding the qualifications of the VP candidate, just as long as they are not based on either of those two things does not qualify.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 06:05 PM

I don't know if an old dui should be an issue. It was one of the things she accused her brother in law of doing. I saw that man she fired say so, I don't have a problem with the press mentioning any criminal record she or her husband might have but hopefully such things are all in the past.

They stands she takes seem to open the door for criticism or at least examination. She has apparently spoken against comprehensive sex ed. She campaigned for the bridge before she said "no thanks." And she kept the money while New Orleans was drowning and the bridge dropped in, ironically, the twin cities. But I am glad that Obama has taken the high road. Let the press and the blogs vet her.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Sorcha
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 06:06 PM

Well, no, Mick, I agree, but IS this discussion about her actual qualifications????? Or something else?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 06:13 PM

When I was growing up a feminism was growing. Many women condemned beauty contests as demeaning. She entered the contest, she said, to get a scholarship because , she says, she wasn't good enough at basketball for an athletic scholarship.

She said, in an interview that I say that it wasn't her thing but she did it for the money. But she was enthusiastic enough about it to win Miss Congeniality.

No one is claiming that she has a lot of integrity are they?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 06:14 PM

Indeed they don't Mick but really calling her a pinup girl or pixie redneck don't really address those issues do they?
And they are as repulsive as referring to McCain as 'sclerotic' - which (if it is meant as the insult I assume in context) is offensive to the folks who suffer from this debilitating disease.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 06:15 PM

Its a discussion of what we are learning about her as the days unfold. Her character is a component to consider in judging her ability to lead is it not?


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Sorcha
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 06:17 PM

Like anyone here would call someone a 'retard', a 'spaz', etc? Well, IMO, 'sclerotic' is just as bad. THAT is NOT 'issues'


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 06:29 PM

I agree, Sorcha and Emma. I think that all the would be pundits would do well to take the lead from my candidate. Barak Obama has said that families, in his world, are off limits, especially young children. I think comments that are stereotypical are wrong headed and only serve to detract from the real issues.

Comments about the rashness of this decision are fair game. Comments about her participating in a beauty contest are also fair game. Comments about her daughters situation as it relates to her stated position on abstinence only education are fair game. Comments about her lack of understanding of the constitutional role of the VP are fair game. Comments about her administrative experience as it applies to how she would assume command of the military, and indeed the whole country, is fair game. Comments about her taking on special interests and being opposed to earmarks when she has availed herself of earmarks and courted special interests, are fair game. Her positions on the environment are fair game. Her stating that Iraq is some kind of holy war that is blessed by God is fair game.

There is plenty to attack with this candidate on so many fronts that there is no need to resort to characterizations and comments that are demeaning to women.

Now ..... I wonder if you would mind telling Rove's boys to stop using the same tactics through the 527's. I don't get how comparing Obama to Paris Hilton and Brittany Spears, fear mongering by trying to paint him as a Moslem (and by the way, that isn't a bad thing), and trying to "create a big campaign out of small issues" will get it done for you this year. And to hear Republicans complain about character assassination when Karl Rove invented the tactic, and conservatives were so successful at it as to give it a whole new name (swiftboating), and when they attacked an honest to goodness war hero and besmirched his honor and reputation ...... well it just leaves me wondering if they really believe that others started all this. Absolutely delusional.

So lay off the sexist, racist, and agist comments. We don't need them.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Sorcha
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 06:30 PM

Thank you Mick.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 06:37 PM

Here's the reality: Palin is a rightwing-Christian anti-choice extremist who opposes abortion for any reason whasoever, except to save the life of the girl or woman. No exception even for rape, incest, or the health of the woman. No exception for a ten-year-old, a woman carrying a fetus with no chance of life, a woman on the edge of suicide-- let alone the woman who is not ready to be a parent, who is escaping domestic violence, who is already stretched to the limit as a single mother. She wants to force over one million women and girls a year to give birth against their will and judgment. She wants to use the magnificent freedom the women's movement has won for her at tremendous cost and struggle--the movement that won her the right to run those marathons and run Alaska -- to take away the freedom of every other woman in the country.

Her selection does not tell us McCain is a "maverick" who is just stringing the Christian right along, wink-wink. It tells us that he has thrown in his lot with James Dobson, the Family Research Council, the Catholic hierarchy and others for whom criminalizing abortion is the number-one issue. His record of votes against abortion and birth control--125 votes out of 130 in his congresssional and Senate career-- apparently wasn't quite enough for them. By choosing Palin, he wins their enthusiastic support.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 06:40 PM

Well, I'd jus' like to throw in my redneck 2 cents worth into this discussion... Hey, I'll be the first to admit that there's a little redneck in me... I've driven race cars... I've played country 'n western music... I drive a picup truck... I drenk lots a' beer... I like to stand round the hood of a pickup truck an' talk sh*t with country folks... I got a Martin geetar... I like my guns... I can run just 'bout every type of equipement... And I grew up and still live 'round rednecks...

And, yeah, I do on occasion use "redneck" in a way I shouldn't... You know I didn't call Palin a redneck... Heck, I never heard of her before jus a few days ago and I usually don't go labelin' the womenz as rednecks... Real rednecks don't call womenz rednecks... Only folks who ain't got a clue about bein' a redneck would call a womenz a redneck...

But the term "redneck" is generally used as a term of endearment between rednecks... Let an outsider drive into Valley Exxon in a new Jaquar and call anyone in there a redneck and Mr Jaguar gonna be pickin' his butt off the parkin' lot...

I reckon I been blessed in my life 'cause I've lived with balck folks who called me "nigga" and I been called a "redneck" by folks that most folks here think of as rednecks...

But mg is right... Redneck, when used as anything but a name of endearment ain't all that cool and, yeah, I been guilty of sayin' it on occasion an' I won't say it anymore 'less I'm using it as a term of endearment...

Bobert (liberal, ol' hippy redneck)


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Sorcha
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 06:44 PM

Stringsinger, THOSE are acceptable comments, IMO.

And bobert, it all depends on WHO calls me a 'bitch' and what they mean by it. I understand YOUR comments too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 06:48 PM

#Here's the reality: Palin is a rightwing-Christian anti-choice extremist who opposes abortion for any reason whasoever, except to save the life of the girl or woman. No exception even for rape, incest, or the health of the woman. No exception for a ten-year-old, a woman carrying a fetus with no chance of life, a woman on the edge of suicide-- let alone the woman who is not ready to be a parent, who is escaping domestic violence, who is already stretched to the limit as a single mother. She wants to force over one million women and girls a year to give birth against their will and judgment. She wants to use the magnificent freedom the women's movement has won for her at tremendous cost and struggle--the movement that won her the right to run those marathons and run Alaska -- to take away the freedom of every other woman in the country.'

No arguement there whatsoever Stringsinger

but let's stick to this sort of discussion and leave out the sexist crap and 'amusing' misogynist 'jokes'


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 06:50 PM

Well, it's good that she's generating all of this interest!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 06:59 PM

Bobert, I know some nouns can be 'inclusive'
I stayed for a time with some 'teuchter' friends in Glasgow who called themselves by this term and was proud as a 'sassenach' to be adopted by them.
However, 'like most such cultural epithets, it is often offensive, but is sometimes seen as amusing by the speaker.
The term is often taken to mean "ignorant northerner".'
Wiki


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 07:29 PM

Hear, hear, Emma B, 6:48 pm....

This is what I don't get about these folks who claim that governemnt is too big and too invasive into our lives.... This woman who will clearly say that governemnt shouldn't be everything to everyone is advocating that government make decisions for 150 million women???

Go figure???

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 07:35 PM

Life begins when you file for Social Security!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 07:55 PM

Of or pertaining to the sclera; Having sclerosis; Hard and insular, often in sclerotic bureaucracy
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sclerotic

Sclerotic is often used to refer to those who have become hardened in their ways, not their arteries. It is a widely used adjective in this sense.

My issue about John McCain's age (in combination with his medical history) is not ageist anymore than actuarial tables are. It is simply a proposition concerning degrees of probability. He has a much higher probability of keeling over from stress than Barack does, for example. If the probabilities were equal, which would be the safer course for the nation's future? Ascent to office of Palin, or of Biden. Don't get silly and over sensitive about alternate definitions.

The other issue surrounding the word has to do with his emotional and intellectual flexibility. He has not demonstrated to me anyway that he is capable of assessing new situations in their own new context with an eye toward synthesizing new and better solutions and directions that lead toward higher conditions.

Obama has demonstrated this talent numerous times since he began his campaign AND he has articulated it as his guiding principle.

Therefore, he is simply the better man, IMHO.

And neither he nor Joe Biden have ever entered a beauty contest, either.



A


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 07:57 PM

Coldest State/Hottest Governor


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:04 PM

Also hotheadest governor...

Word on the street is that she screams and yells frequently... Shoot, she might get p.o.'d and scare McFrail to death...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:08 PM

By Paul Kane
ST. PAUL -- Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, the Republican vice-presidential nominee who revealed Monday that her 17-year-old daughter is pregnant, earlier this year used her line-item veto to slash funding for a state program benefiting teen mothers in need of a place to live.

After the legislature passed a spending bill in April, Palin went through the measure reducing and eliminating funds for programs she opposed. Inking her initials on the legislation -- "SP" -- Palin reduced funding for Covenant House Alaska by more than 20 percent, cutting funds from $5 million to $3.9 million. Covenant House is a mix of programs and shelters for troubled youths, including Passage House, which is a transitional home for teenage mothers.

According to Passage House's web site, its purpose is to provide "young mothers a place to live with their babies for up to eighteen months while they gain the necessary skills and resources to change their lives" and help teen moms "become productive, successful, independent adults who create and provide a stable environment for themselves and their families."


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:38 PM

For almost half my life, I've hated the President and Vice President of my country. Not mere dilike - I HATED them. I hated Nixon-Agnew, Reagan-Bush, Bush-Quayle, and Bush-Cheney. And I didn't much like Johnson or Clinton. I have to admit that compared to George W., I'm starting to have kindly, nostalgic feelings for George H.W. I pity a man who has a son like that....

This year, I'd like to be able to like my country's leaders, whichever ones are elected. So far, I like the candidates from both parties. People seem to be doing the best they can to paint all the candidates as bastards, but I still like them all. I may not agree with the Republicans, but I'm still convinced they're decent people.

Wouldn't it be nice to have an election without hatred, for once?


-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:40 PM

In a word........Yes!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 09:47 PM

I agree, Joe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 09:52 PM

Hear, hear, Joe.

And you know, I do like John McCain, the individual. I even like Ms Palin, as an individual. I would be delighted to make dinner for them.

I have many friends I like more, also, whom I would not want to see steering the nation in the Oval Office. I feel they don't think clearly enough in that kind of role to be entrusted with a job where the thinking process -- especially in dealing with the unpredicted -- can be so critical to so many.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Barry Finn
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 10:27 PM

Her husband's DUI shouldn't come into play at all. Bush with his one DUI & Cheney with his 2 should've clearded up those disqualifications durning the 1st Bush elections.
We should've listened to what those driving records were saying back then. That the 2 of them weren't qualified to drive taxis, never mind a nation & they weren't.


Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 11:04 PM

"I have to make a correction to my previous post. It wasn't Palin herself, it was her administration and her husband who made the calls, one of which is on tape".

Precisely.

And this is exactly why I've said, and not just on this thread, that we need direct quotes and exact sources--and less smearing--even of politicians.

Palin is not out of the woods, but it's still murky as to if she improperly applied influence--despite the enthusiasm for it, it's not time to hang her yet--especially since she denies "asking anybody on her staff to get in touch with state police safety officials about Wooten": 14 Aug 2008 Anchorage Daily News. Wooten, by the way, is not exactly a prize.

At any rate, it would be good--and a pleasant change--to stick to facts--or at least theories with hard evidence--in political threads.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 01:27 AM

Those things (quotes and sources) can be requested without adopting the kind of snearing, condescending, and self aggrandizing tone that we see in the above post (as well as a large number of other posts coming from the person who made it). Although my guess is that it's just my turn (yet once again) in the rotation of people who are regular targets of gratuitous abuse from this person.

The post of mine in which I mentioned the tape was not a smear. It was a faulty recollection of something I read. Having said that, though, it was her administration and her husband who made the calls.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 02:52 AM

It sounds to me that too many people are trying to form an opinion about her, and really do not know much about her, so they are grasping at straws, and making big deals out of whatever little tidbit that the press throws at us, (More like trying to form an opinion about a person based on tabloid headlines)..So far, (and only from what I've heard), she sounds far more honorable that Hilary Clinton!....but then who knows?...But that's easy!...ANYTHING is more honorable than Hilary!
I say, let more info on her unfold, and don't be so compelled to form an opinion on her, one way or another!..Besides, both the two MAIN candidates suck, anyway!..Ever notice how in the more recent elections, that we can actually vote for a great person...it's always the 'lesser of two evils'???...So, now with that mentality, I guess people try to throw up any evil they can..to show that this or that person is more or less evil than the other.....not, what accomplishments, that the same person may have. That's one of the main reasons that I think Obama is just hot air....nothing he has accomplished, from beginning to end(he even voted against a bill he allegedly wrote, and sponsored....and McCain wishy washing about his issues!....Just don't trust either one of them!
Funny how nobody knew much about Biden, but gave him a pass, but with Palin, a pass would be hard to come by....ok, see ya' 'nuff said!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 03:04 AM

Well, she lies about her record. How honorable is that? (Hillary lied too, but that doesn't make Palin's lies any more honorable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 03:23 AM

Well, I don't know about any 'alleged' lie, but then IT IS politics!..what did you expect...the truth??????
That's what just kills me...people arguing over other people's lies!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 04:00 AM

McCain and Palin are running on their records, so their records are fair game for voters to scrutinize and to point out when their actual records don't match up with what they're saying about their records.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 04:30 AM

You don't get it!!! NOTHING matches up!!!....jeez!...can't believe people can be so stupid! Look at their records, AFTER they take office, versus the oath they take to uphold the Constitution! Zilch, nada, kaput! ITS ALL BULLSHIT....They just get you to vote to make it taste good in small amounts...then they tell you(us)..."Well, you voted him/her in"....
Obama, McCain, and the rest, are not going to 'rescue' this country!..
That only comes when enough people decide within THEMSELVES, to live honestly, morally, and work for what they have, and not expect the safety net of 'being on the dole'...When God and family come first, not last...and not take politics as a spectator sport, observed with a passive mind...as in watching T.V. These are our lives that these jerk offs are fucking with, and the lives of our neighbors, loved ones and fellow citizens.....and the ones we have up, in front of us now are bought and paid for assholes!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 04:34 AM

Sorry, not assholes...wrong word....(read: Lying sacks of shit!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 04:42 AM

I don't agree.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 04:54 AM

Of course you don't.....so what?..it doesn't change the FACT(remember those?)


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 06:41 AM

I don't agree that what I am disagreeing with are necessarily facts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 07:30 AM

It's also somewhat discouraging to see the continuation of another Mudcat trend--vastly underestimating your opponents. The blithe--sometimes verging on smug--conviction that McCain will drop Palin soon has no basis in fact--it's just wishful thinking. London bookmakers' odds don't count as real evidence.

As I pointed out on the long VP thread just before Obama picked Biden, no matter who McCain picked he would have severe problems, since he had to do two contradictory things--solidify his base and reach out to independents at the same time.

However, anecdotal evidence suggests that with Palin he has the best chance to do both. Already the "Christian Right " is rallying behind her--and him. And at least 4 people who claim to be Hillary voters on the web are saying they will now vote for McCain--as a result of this pick. (Obviously on the web you never know if people are what they claim).


Why?   Several reasons.   She's actually wrestling with--perhaps making the wrong choices--some of the most serious problems a real US family has to make--not just talking about them.   Daughter pregnant at 17. Downs syndrome child. And the "Christian Right" sees her as actually living her faith--dealing with with these issues as a Christian should--not taking what they consider is the easy way out--in both cases.

Also, she is actually doing what so many on the other side talk about in politics--cracking down on corruption--in her own party, no less. For instance, look at her resignation from the oil and gas committee in January 2004, rather than countenance the unethical behavior she saw in that committee.

And her struggle against corruption in the Alaska Republican party is successful even--they say Alaska politics is littered with the carcasses of her opponents.   No wonder McCain likes her--on a smaller scale, she's far more successful than he is, doing what he would love to do.

This is of course why the trooper problem is so dangerous for her. But so far it appears she cannot be herself fingered. (We'll see what happens now--especially since there is now a hotline in Alaska for anybody with information on this issue).   And that is why the earlier attempt to claim there was a tape of her actually personally involved in firing Monehan was so crucial--and, it turns out, so clumsy. Mudcatters really have to start being more careful with facts--and start using more direct quotes.


Now I would guess that any real Hillary voter couldn't possibly support Palin--especially on the Roe v Wade issue and the health care issue--though we don't yet in detail know Palin's views on health care. It appears she is willing to slash it to ribbons for budgetary reasons, but we need more facts.

But Palin is a real mother, grappling with real issues mothers--and fathers--- across the US face. It's easy to caricature her views and make easy predictions McCain won't keep her.

I am totally against what McCain stands for-- in Iraq policy, health care, Roe v Wade, taxes, and environmental policy, etc. But I actually have a lot of respect for her--though there's a huge difference in doing what she is doing on her family's income--over $200, 000--and doing it on a real middle class income.

But I don't underestimate her--or McCain. Nor should other Mudcatters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 07:32 AM

Personally, I hope she does well tonight!


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 08:07 AM

A bit of clarification.   I believe that in both the cases of the Downs Syndrome child and the pregnancy of the 17-year-old, Palin's attitudes have been instrumental in creating the serious problems the family faces. She is in fact a dangerous role model--especially since most families will not have the $200,000- plus income Palin's family has--which eases the way somewhat.

But according to the lights of her own faith, she has made the right choices. I totally disagree--but I respect her for following her own principles.

Also, re: changing her mind on the "Bridge to Nowhere"--no politician is pure on this one (telling your constituents one thing, then telling another audience another.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 08:11 AM

"I hope she does well"--no surprise there. Anybody who opposes Obama is fine with some people--particularly those who don't think about what a McCain administration would bring.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 08:21 AM

Alot of folks are forgetting that thius woman is ***not*** running for president... John McCain is and John McCain is a hothead... JOhn McCain will continue the war in Iraq looking for that elusive victory so "Johnny can come home marching again" and the people will line the streets throwing confetti... John McCain will continue down the fiscally irresponsible road and John McCain wuill apppoint Supreme Court judegs who will plunge the country into darkness when it comes to women's rights...

That is the reality...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 08:37 AM

The AP story in our newspapers this morning mentioned her use as Governor of the line-item veto to reduce funding for programs to assist young unwed mothers. I wonder if Palin now has more empathy with such mothers. Of course her daughter doesn't require State assistance, given the income of her parents but I would hope that the daughter have access to professional counseling.

I don't see the McKain Campaign dumping this Vice Presidential choice, even if she is an admitted past marijuana user (she inhaled).

I view this choice with great interest.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: SINSULL
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 08:39 AM

"A bit of clarification.   I believe that in both the cases of the Downs Syndrome child and the pregnancy of the 17-year-old, Palin's attitudes have been instrumental in creating the serious problems the family faces. She is in fact a dangerous role model--especially since most families will not have the $200,000- plus income Palin's family has--which eases the way somewhat.

But according to the lights of her own faith, she has made the right choices. I totally disagree--but I respect her for following her own principles."


We went through this in another thread - it is no one's business but her own.

"Dangerous Role Model"????? Now you are sounding like Dan Quayle and Murphy Brown. So you really think that 40+ women are going to get pregnant in the hopes of having a Down's Syndrome child or that more 17 year olds will become pregnant because a VP wannabee's daughter is pregnant?

Walk into any high school in the USA and randomly ask teenage girls who Sarah Palin is. Most will not have a clue - I know. I mentioned her name in the office today and had to explain who she is.

None of this has any relationship to her abilities as VP or president should she find herself in that position.

I will listen to her speech with great interest. I am also betting that she bows out before Election Day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 08:40 AM

She been SILENT for 5 days as confusion mounts.

Now they say she didn't support Pat Buchannon. One of a dozen reversals.

'Which lane' McCain and Palin 'both lanes' can take any flop flip they desire.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 08:42 AM

Personally, I would like to see some real documentation for the assertion that Palin has been cracking down on corruption in Alaska. So far, other than people saying she has been doing this, I have not seen any supporting evidence. I would like to see articles in the media that were current when the alleged cracking down allegedly took place. Mudcatters need to be more careful with facts. We need sources and evidence.

On the subject of the "bridge to nowhere", it's not that she flip flopped that is the problem. It's the fact that she is lying when she says she never supported it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 08:54 AM

One more thing. Supposedly: Huffington Post 2 Sept 2008--therefore not unbiased-- in her church she has said some amazing things about foreign policy. In June, according to this source, she said: "Pray for our military mean and women who are striving to do what is right. Also, for this country, leaders are sending (US soldiers) out on a task that is from God".

If that is an accurate quote, that sort of of attitude on foreign policy is totally unacceptable.

Just as Obama was grilled--and on something he didn't even say--she should be made to either confirm or deny that this is her attitude.

And if she confirms it, that should be enough--just in itself--to make any thinking person refuse to support the McCain-Palin ticket.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 08:56 AM

I'm still waiting for some documentation and evidence that Sarah Palin has been struggling against corruption in Alaska.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Tinker
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 09:12 AM

Sarah's Address at Assemble of God Church

The video of her speaking at the church is posted in the Huffington Article. Judge for yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: SINSULL
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 09:23 AM

There is one bit of this story that has me confounded. I do not understand how a parent (male or female) would willingly drag a 17 year old pregnant child into the limelight and essentially throw her to the wolves. This girl is now on the front page of every paper in the country at a time when she needs privacy, love, support... Mom says she is "going to have to grow up fast".

So, my confusion is:
A) In my experience a girl who marries at seventeen because she is pregnant is in for a rocky marriage and more than likely divorce. The baby will suffer emotionally from the instability in the home. Grandma says deal with it and moves on with her career. I could not do that...but in reality it is none of my business.
B) Grandma's singleness of purpose and ability to separate the emotional from the practical may well mean she will be a great president. Certainly she is a successful politician. Governor of Alaska doesn't happen by accident.

I am babbling and still not clearly explaining my confusion...sorry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 09:28 AM

"Only someone in the throes of a serious mental condition could have make a pick this astonishing. This focus group confirms the Rasmussen Reports polling that, among undecided voters, the Palin pick makes 6 percent more likely to vote for McCain and 31 percent less likely to vote for McCain. About 59 percent of these undecided voters do not think Palin is qualified to be president. It is a stunt gone terribly amiss. And the hilarious thing is that the right wing really believes that this is going to turn everything around. Amazing, amazing, amazing." Time blog


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 09:45 AM

"Sarah Palin is just as much of a reformer and a maverick as she was on Friday morning, but that's not what most people are thinking about right now."

What? She's a reformer and a maverick? You mean, the way McCain is a maverick, voting with George Bush over 90% of the time? Please do your homework. Sarah Palin is a woman who said that our soldiers are in Iraq "on a task from God," she tried to have books banned when she was mayor of Wasilla, the town budget exploded under her watch, she procured tens of millions of dollars in earmarks, tried to fire everyone who disagreed with her, increased a regressive sales tax while mayor that even taxed food, and was a member of a radical fringe group that wanted Alaska to declare independence from the rest of the country. That's not a maverick, that's a wacko.

— Posted by rmh "

(NYT Reader Responses)


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 09:47 AM

She hopes to blame the liberal media for her daughter's celebrity.

Amos, you did not write that rant, you are too cultured and sensible.


TInker

The curch link you posted is not her long standing church.

She threw her Pentacostal church under the bus 21/2 years ago when she became Govenor.
BECAUSE it was not politically correct to be seen speaking in tongues.

No need to pull a Reverend Wright on her but she certainly could not deny it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Palin VP McCain choice
From: Amos
Date: