Sub-Dreadnought Guitars

Subject: Sub-Dreadnought Guitars
From: Raymond55
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 09:41 PM

I need some guidance. I haven't played in nearly 30 years, but I've decided to get back to it as a hobby. Because it's a hobby, I don't want to spend a fortune. I'm trying to find a North American made guitar for $500. I really like the look and sound of some of the Seagull guitars. I don't have big hands so their wide neck is a bit uncomfortable for me. Their "slim" model (1.72" nut) works better for me. I also prefer a slightly smaller body than a dreadnought and Seagull doesn't make a slim neck folk sized guitar, but Simon and Patrick does. Norman also makes a folk sized guitar (B20 Folk) but I can't determine the nut width anywhere online.

Does anyone have any intimate knowledge of these Godin brands? Are the S&P bodies the same as the Seagulls? They have the exact same dimensions, but I don't know if they're built the same. To help narrow the field, in what order would these models stack up by price:

Seagull Coastline Cedar Folk ($400 USD - like the looks but too wide)
Simon and Patrick Woodland Folk Cedar
Simon and Patrick Showcase Folk Rosewood
Norman B20 Folk (nut width?) -- not a single dealer listed within 200 miles!

In which order would you put the quality or are they all about the same?

I don't need any electronics. I'd like a non-cutaway with solid cedar or spruce top and I'm no fan of the sunburst finishes.

Then there's the Big Baby Taylor ($450 USD). It sounds good, "fits" me, but it sure is plain looking.

Does anyone have any advice for buying any of the Godins online? I can't believe how hard it is to find anything but Seagulls. Much as I'd love to play before buying, if I can't find a local dealer and if the Seagulls are indicitive of the S&P and Norman guitars, I might take a chance on a sight unseen purchase.

Thanks!

Subject: RE: Sub-Dreadnought Guitars
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 03:11 PM

Cost top to bottom Norman, Seagull, S&P, A&L but there is a lot of overlap with different models. They make a small body A&L with a solid cedar top for about $300 that had amazing sound for the price, at least on the one that I tried.
Godin can be contacted here to get specs and locate dealers:
http://www.normanguitars.com/contact.htm

Subject: RE: Sub-Dreadnought Guitars
From: John Hardly
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 03:31 PM

Guild has been importing these gems that I've seen at Guitar Centers for @ $500. Every one I've played has been at most a set-up away from being terrific guitars.

Subject: RE: Sub-Dreadnought Guitars
From: Zen
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 04:33 PM

I use a Norman B20 Folk as my main gigging guitar. Well-made, fairly plain solid cedar top and cherry back and sides, rosewood fretboard. Good sound and a reasonable price.

Zen

Subject: RE: Sub-Dreadnought Guitars
From: Raymond55
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 10:18 PM

Thanks, folks (no pun intended). It looks like I can get a S&P Woodland Folk (cedar/cherry, no case) or a Norman B20 Folk (spruce/cherry, generic hard shell case) for $400 either way. Is one particularly better than the other? Like I said, it's been hard finding these locally, so before I order from a picture, I'd like to be sure I'm making the right choice.

Subject: RE: Sub-Dreadnought Guitars
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 10:46 PM

Are you able to try them out or are you buying on line? "Better" can be a very subjective term.

Subject: RE: Sub-Dreadnought Guitars
From: Beer
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 11:02 PM

I bought a BlueRidge BR-40 cash for $500.00
Love it.
But there are so many out there that you will just have to try try and try until you feel or know that this is the one. I am beginning to beleive that when it comes to guitars we all have our own listening devise in our heads that say, "this is the sound I want". What I like may not be what you like. So never mind the name of the builder. Go for the sound that you like.
Beer (adrien)

Subject: RE: Sub-Dreadnought Guitars
From: Raymond55
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 11:18 PM

We have only two authorized S&P dealers here and no Norman dealers. I've tried Seagulls (lots of dealers for that line) and really like them. The 1.8" neck is too wide for me but the 1.72" neck is fine. The folk sized body fits me better, too, but Seagull doesn't make a folk-sized body with the 1.72" neck. The S&P Woodland Folk (and the Norman B20 Folk) do have the narrower necks and the smaller bodies. I'm trusting that they're comparable to the Seagulls in terms of sound. So yes, this may be an online order unless one the two S&P dealers gets some new stock soon.

What I'm wondering about is if the Normans or S&Ps are built with cut corners to make them a cheaper product or if they're essentially the same as one another with different combinations of woods and finishes. If they're basically the same and they appear to be, then I'll focus on the S&P dealers and see what they come up with. I'm also watching the other larger music stores to see if they get anything used but that's been fruitless so far.

Subject: RE: Sub-Dreadnought Guitars
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 11:49 PM

I don't think that Godin cut corners but of course top line models use more expensive materiels. All of them use select locally grown woods and there is a lot of "hands on" by the luthiers in the construction. My daughter owns a $300 Art & Luthrie that has a picture and signature of the builder on the label. It also has a great sound and a dreadnaught body but they make smaller ones with solid cedar tops that I love, but I do not own any Godins. They may be the best bang for the buck in the Godin line. but as I say that is a matter of personal taste. In any case they may be worth checking out.

Subject: RE: Sub-Dreadnought Guitars
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 08:20 AM

What's the problem with "offshore" guitars? You can get an awful lot of bang for the buck. Well constructed and beautiful instruments are available as both Beer and John suggested. Don't buy anything because of what is said here or anywhere else. We all have ideas and can help with anecdotal info, but in the end its about you, the feel of the instrument in your hands and its sound.

Go play as many as you can. You may be not be spending $5000. but pretend that you are. Forget the brand or where it came from. Does it fit you? Is it comfortable in your hands and against your body? Once you isolate the 4 or 5 that are the best fit and the ones you like, take another picker along and have them play each with your back turned. If you don't have someone, perhaps the store guy can do it. You might be surprised.

There are about a bezillion threads around here on buying a guitar and different brands as well and some research on them can be very helpful. Over the years we've had the input of many fine pickers. Take a look at them as well as the replies you're getting here. But do your best to try before you buy.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Sub-Dreadnought Guitars
From: Michael Harrison
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 10:46 PM

Raymond55 - Sir, you have left off a slew of fine guitar makers
including Breedlove, Yamaha, Ibanez and certainly Takamine, who make some very nice sub-dread guitars for about the price you are into.

One more thing - please take your money and go to a guitar retailer and, no,...several guitar retailers and play some instruments - new and used - and then make up your mind. Who knows, you may find a used instrument that blows everything you've played out of the water - and that is a treasure worth looking for.
Happy hunting. Cheers.

Subject: RE: Sub-Dreadnought Guitars
From: Bert
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 02:05 AM

Sub-Dreadnought, is that kinda like Jumbo Shrimp?

Subject: RE: Sub-Dreadnought Guitars
From: Raymond55
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:43 PM

Or how about mini jumbo? LOL

As for the other brands, I have tried some of them at the eight local music and guitar stores I've been frequenting. I've come to the conclusion that a dreadnought is uncomfortably large. As I mentioned in my initial post, I don't much care for the sunburst finishes, I prefer a more traditional style guitar without a cutaway, and I'd like to find something for under $500. If I get back into playing, I may not mind spending more down the road, but to restart, I'd like something I'll like playing for awhile. Given those requirements of "my" guitar, I'm somewhat limited in selection. Last night I put together a list of possibilities in the $300-$600 range. I found 2 Alvarez, 2 Blueridge, 2 Breedlove, 2 Epiphone, 1 Norman, 1 Parkwood, 2 Simon & Patrick, 2 Takamine, 2 Taylor, and 4 Yamaha (no Ibanez). I've probably overlooked a few. Today, I visited two of the stores and found two of them in stock, one at each store. They had other "folk" guitars for upwards of $600, but very little in the way of anything I'll be comfortable with in my price range. I have to assume that dreadnoughts sell better than most other sizes, so most stores stock and sell more of them. The point being that I'm not ruling out anything, but I'm not finding a lot to choose from locally. Sooner or later, I may have to order based on recommendations and hope for the best.

When it comes to North American, I'll say this. If it were to come down to an Asian import or a North American (or European) guitar, all things being equal, I'd pass on the Asian import. I'm not saying I'd never buy an Asian guitar and I'm not saying I'd gladly spend more to get one made here. I don't have a good argument for that position and it's evidently not popular, but I'd just have a better feeling owning a guitar made by someone who is more likely to have played this western instrument than someone who is only following directions.

Subject: RE: Sub-Dreadnought Guitars
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 09:51 PM

The cedar top will give a warmer sound than the spruce top. So it depends on what you want really. I had two S&P guitars and both gave fine service and had a nice sound - they have since been replaced by a hand made guitar because I didn't think the big names really offered a substantial improvement for the outlay.

Some friends of mine have a Freshman with a "traditional" style body. It has a spruce top and Indian rosewood back and sides. It sounds and plays very nicely and was only about £500 (my S&P guitars cost me £330). The Freshmans can be supplied with pickups etc.

Subject: RE: Sub-Dreadnought Guitars
From: Michael Harrison
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 01:23 AM

Raymond55 - I was not going to post to this thread again as I gave my two cents a bit earlier; however, I had a re-awakening and thought I'd share it with you.

I have three guitars: #1 is a Breedlove C25K that is "the one."    #2 is a recently purchased Larrivee OMV-09 that is just a dream to play or hear. #3 is a Takamine Sante Fe from back in 1999 or 2000.

What does it matter? Well, as one may guess, the Breedlove and the Larrivee are out and played most everyday; but, since I have an out-of-town pub gig and a festival this weekend I thought I'd bring out the ole Santa Fe and restring it for the road. Well, the strings that were on it (from about a month ago) rang rather clear, so I tuned her up and and, I'll tell you what - the Takamine stands up to the other two guitars.

No, the Sante Fe is not a custom-made Koa guitar; and, it's cost was about one-third of the Larrivee - but it stands up. I would not be embarrassed to take that guitar to any gig - studio or stage - and play it; in fact, I have.

I just had a thought to share this with you because when I don't play the Takamine for awhile and then pull it out, it never fails that I've forgotten how good it feels, sounds and plays next to the other guitars - it stands up. Just two more cents. Cheers.