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BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves !
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Subject: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: GUEST,Oakville Date: 31 Aug 08 - 03:00 AM Just read the most amazing story on the BBC news (Sorry I can't do blue clicky things). Seemingly an old Etonian, James Lonsdale-Bryanstried wished to make a peace deal with Germany in World War II. He proposed that Germany could have a "free hand" in Europe while Britain ran the rest of the world. MI5 files released under the Freedom of Information Act show that security service officials knew of the Rome trip and did not try to stop it. He proposed that the world should be divided up into German and British spheres of influence, the Germans being given a more or less free hand in Europe. It would appear he had support for his plan and wasn't discouraged.
Thanks. -Joe Offer, Forum Moderator- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: John MacKenzie Date: 31 Aug 08 - 04:27 AM That was obviously in the days before we followed the bidding of the US government, in all things to do with foreign relations. JM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: alanabit Date: 31 Aug 08 - 06:19 AM Under the new rules, this thread is unlikely to have a long life. However, I would like to make the observation that in time of war, MI5 probably used its resources to better purpose than to keep track of an eccentric, whose actions were never likely to have any real bearing on the course of events. In view of the commitment of UK forces on all fronts, I don't see there is much reason to doubt the resolve of the government of the day. There are few ideas, which are so barmy that no one will support them! I am sure James Lonsdale-Bryans had his supporters. I am less convinced that there were ever enough of them to affect the course of history. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: GUEST,Oakville Date: 31 Aug 08 - 06:44 AM Hello Alanabit, what new rules ? can you direct me to a link ? Hope your well. T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Teribus Date: 31 Aug 08 - 07:08 AM Here is the link to the story: http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Amateur-British-Diplomat-James-Lonsdale-Bryans-Peace-Deal-Plan-With-Nazi-Germany/Art Can't imagine where on earth Guest gets the impression that this plan ever had any support, or was ever encouraged, by anybody official, or otherwise. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 31 Aug 08 - 07:23 AM The new rules ban BS threads being started by Guests. Bye bye. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: alanabit Date: 31 Aug 08 - 07:33 AM Hello Oakville. Hope you are well too. The new rules are here. You may be covered by the exception rule, as you have used a consistent name and your thread looks unlikely to initiate a Mudcat punch up! However, although we often disagree, I take Teribus's view on this one. I think James Lonsdale Bryans was a deluded eccentric, who merits barely a footnote in the history books. Everything else I know about the war leads me to believe that once it had broken out, Britain had an implacable resolve to pursue it until the bitter end. One may debate whether that was a good policy. However, I do not doubt whether that was the case. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: GUEST,Oakville Date: 31 Aug 08 - 11:27 AM Thanks Alanabit and Teribus for that. Oh by the way Keith TA, please see Joe's note below my initial post. No bye bye for me, sorry ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: GUEST,GUEST, UK Date: 31 Aug 08 - 04:23 PM Lonsdale Bryans is linked to Rudolf Hess and his peace mission.von Hassell was a traitor and was executed in 1944. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 31 Aug 08 - 05:45 PM I support all decisions by Joe and the mods, but the licence given to guests is my least favourite thing about Mudcat. So, although Britain as a nation stood alone against the might of Germany and Japan, they produced one eccentric crank who wanted to do a deal with Hitler. Compare Britain's heroic stand with, say, the IRA who sided with Hitler, used lights to guide his bombers, themselves exploded the first bomb of WW2, and who applauded the Nazis for "cleansing Europe of Jews". (I choose this comparison because you have shown an interest in threads about Irish matters.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: GUEST,Oakville Date: 31 Aug 08 - 06:37 PM Well Keith TA good to see you accept the decision to allow my guest posts. I found that story about Britain and Germany carving up the globe amazing. Keith that is a fascinating story about Irishmen using lights to guide Hilters bombers to their targets. I am appalled by that statement you brought to the site about the Irish saying they "applauded the Nazis for "cleansing Europe of Jews". How awful of them. Keith TA could you possibly provide us with the link regarding this story ? I imagine many like myself would like to read more about it, is it really true or just TA propaganda ? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 31 Aug 08 - 06:51 PM Which was the story about Britain and Germany carving up the globe. Surely you do not mean the one you just posted about a single British crank? Was he in any position to carve up the globe with Hitler? Did it happen? I am glad you would like to read more about the stuff I mentioned. http://www.politics.ie/viewtopic.php?f=115&t=32949 I got the quote slightly wrong. It should be "Satisfaction was expressed that the 'cleansing fire' of the German armies was driving the Jews from Europe." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Barry Finn Date: 31 Aug 08 - 07:35 PM I was thinking along the same lines back during the war against Iraq. I was planning a meeting with the Attoola of Mongolia, the Shar of Tie&ran & the Prez of the US, this was before Shock & Awe. Bush wouldn't meet cause he don't talk with the enemy but the Secert Service was all for it, they said nothing! Well the plan date was set but the Shar & the Attoola found out that the SS were planning a double cross on Bush (they didn't know he had backed out) kind of a "Hitler & the General's thing" & were rigging the meeting place with Hollygens that were set to blow Bush & dust him into a loving mood accompanied by visions of Shangrala. Anyway, the Shar & the Tool wanted no part of loving Bush so they backed out too (can't say as if I blame them). The SS was sure that this meeting had it occured would've put the US in an exceptable prostrate position which would've elected the erected Tool & Shar to hold sway over the whole of the Middle East, Europe & Asia leaving the Americas' & both Poles to the Americans. Thank Christ I stayed at home & didn't go, those fools at the SS would've let me walk right in, sit right down & daddy would've blown my mind. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Peace Date: 31 Aug 08 - 08:05 PM "Britain and Germany rule the waves !" Bush and Cheney waive the rules ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Little Hawk Date: 31 Aug 08 - 10:36 PM It's not unusual for competing empires to consider temporary power-sharing deals like that so they can divide the world up into their own spheres of influence and not have to fight one another. It happens frequently, but it usually onlys last for a relatively short period of time. Why be so astounded that someone in Great Britain would come up with that idea vis a vis the Uk and Germany? Stalin came to a temporary meeting of minds with the Germans, for example...long enough to assault Finland and gobble up various other territories in the west, including a large hunk of Poland. The agreement held until Germany's attack on Russia in '41, despite the fact that the Russians and Germans did not like each other's regimes one bit. Nothing works like mutual survival instinct coupled with a desire for material gain. As long as the plan suits both parties, they will back it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Gulliver Date: 31 Aug 08 - 10:49 PM Keith A of Hertford is trying to divert this discussion into another of his endless diatribes about the IRA. There were many British Fascists and Nazi sympathisers active in Britain in the 1930s, not only Mosley and his cohorts, stretching as far up as the British royal family, as has been attested, who supported Hitler and Nazi Germany, including many politicians. They regarded Hitler as a bulwark against Stalin. There were many more of these than the handful of deluded IRA, who anyway came from a different country. This was necessarily swept under the carpet as soon as the war broke out, and of course the post-war British historians played this down. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Sandy Mc Lean Date: 31 Aug 08 - 10:56 PM Keith wrote: "So, although Britain as a nation stood alone against the might of Germany and Japan" Thousands of dead Canadians and ANZACS could have been saved if we had only known how our sacrifice is appreciated! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Gulliver Date: 31 Aug 08 - 11:16 PM "So, although Britain as a nation stood alone against the might of Germany and Japan" So Soviet Russia (and many many more countries fighting in WW2) did nothing? What an ignoramus! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Sep 08 - 12:09 AM The British (and their Commonwealth members) stood "alone" after the summer of 1940 simply by default. It simply happened that way, because the new tactics the Germans used in their blitzkrieg warfare resulted in a stunningly quick and decisive German victory over Norway, Denmark, Holland, Belgium, and France. No one could have anticipated such a thing happening. France was considered to have the strongest military in Europe prior to that campaign. That is why the British stood "alone" for a period of time...until the Germans (well, I mean Hitler) made the unbelievable errors of first attacking Russia...and later declaring war on the USA! Britain did not stand alone because Britain is inherently more noble or self-sacrificing or better or braver than anyone else in particular, they stood alone by an unexpected misadventure and what could be termed "ill fortunes of war". They stood alone due to great German expertise in the art of warfare, and the English Channel saved them from rapidly meeting a similar fate to the French. Therefore it's not particularly something to go puffing up one's chest over, though they certainly do have reason to be proud of how well and resolutely they defended the island of Britain in 1940 and after that. They NEVER at any time stood alone against Japan. When the war with Japan started, the British had the USA, China, free Dutch forces in the Pacific, Australia, New Zealand, and various other allies helping them fight the Japanese from day one. I don't call that being "alone". Had the British stood alone against Japan, the British navy in the Far East would have ceased to exist in pretty short order...as was discovered by the Prince of Wales, the Repulse, the Hermes, the Cornwall and the Dorsetshire, and a host of smaller vessels that the Japanese sank in late '41 and early '42 without even straining themselves. The British fought bravely and well. No doubt about it. So did the Germans, the Japanese, the Russians, the Americans, the Finns, and just about everyone else that was in that war. Even many of the much maligned Italians fought with great bravery, despite the very successful Allied WWII propaganda that has forever painted them as incompetents and cowards. Fine. Just one thing counts when it's all over: the guy that won gets to boast about it to the world forever and a day, it seems. Well, that's been happening for thousands of years, hasn't it? The Greeks and Romans were proud of themselves too, and for much the same reason. They won, so they wrote their own eulogies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Teribus Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:09 AM Great Britain and her Empire stood alone after the fall of France. At that time there was no guarantee of any help, or assistance from anyone else. There was absolutley no certainty that the US would enter the war, or indeed on which side the US would enter. There was no intimation apart from what was written in "Mein Kampf" that Hitler would attack the USSR. Great Britain could have come to terms with Hitler and Nazi Germany, very easily - that was the easy way out - Fact was they did not even consider it, instead they elected to fight and Churchill never doubted the outcome for a second. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:18 AM When i said Britain, I meant Britain and Empire. No, it did not choose to stand alone but did so or WW2 would have ended in 1940 with a Natzi victory. Britain was at war with Japan long before Pearl Harbour. Britain and Empire alone defeated the Luftwaffe in The Battle of Britain and alone turned the tide against Germany and Italy in North Africa. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:39 AM "Britain and Empire alone defeated the Luftwaffe in The Battle of Britain" ... with the help of the Polish Fighter Squadron, et al... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Liz the Squeak Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:40 AM "Britain and Empire alone defeated the Luftwaffe in The Battle of Britain and alone turned the tide against Germany and Italy in North Africa". So all those Polish airmen whose names are carved in the floor of St Clement Danes in Aldwych, on the memorial at Ruislip and other places in Britain were members of the British Empire then? Geography has never been my strong point... can someone tell me which part of Poland was ever pink on the map? And that's just one example. LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:50 AM Fair point. Let us also remember the Free French who also carried on the fight. I also retact that Britain did not choose to stand alone. After the fall of France, Hitler expected Britain to make peace, but Britain and Empire CHOSE to fight on alone, with a Polish sqaudron and some free French. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:53 AM "Churchill never doubted the outcome for a second." Correct. He was that type of individual. I think Hitler never doubted the outcome (a German victory) for a second either, until very, very late on, when the outcome was clearly becoming absolutely inevitable. ;-) He was also that type of individual, a man utterly sure of his own rightness, of his own regime's rightness and superiority, and of the power of his own will to triumph over all odds he might encounter. Japan was also led by some men like that (Admiral Yamamoto being an interesting exception...he figured Japan could not win a war with the USA). The history of politics is full of leaders who never doubted the outcome for a second. High office is a job that seems to attract that sort of person, and there's a reason for it...that kind of person is damned near unstoppable until he finally bites off more than he can possibly chew (and most of them eventually do). Therefore, that kind of person is the man most likely to attain high office in the ruthless business of politics. Keith - Britain stood alone because Britain had no other even vaguely palatable choice to make after the Fall of France but to stand alone. They were forced to stand alone. They simply did what they had to do. Germany also stood alone in Europe after their various European allies surrendered...for the same reason...they had no choice about it. Therefore they also did what they had to do under the circumstances. Their lone stand is not celebrated, however, because they lost. Had they won, generations of schoolkids would be celebrating it right now, I'm sure. Britain was not at war with Japan long before Pearl Harbour or any time before Pearl Harbour, so I have no idea why you think they were. The Japanese attacks on British, Dutch, and American targets in the Pacific commenced simultaneousy on Dec 7-8, 1941. Britain was not at war with Japan before that, and neither were Holland or America....but China certainly was...and the Japanese had also moved into French Indochina and occupied it (with little or no fighting). "Britain and Empire alone defeated the Luftwaffe in The Battle of Britain" - Yes, they did that all right. They fought the Luftwaffe to a bloody draw, shot down plenty of German bombers, and defeated the German attempt to crush the Royal Air Force and make a sea invasion of the UK a viable possibility. Congratulations to the British for a job well done. The Germans missed winning that campaign only by the narrowest of margins (and a couple of wrong decisions), but the British can definitely claim a victory there. As for North Africa, that was a back and forth affair...mostly dependent on who got the most supplies. The tide turned first one way, then another, and it turned several times. Rommel beat the British numerous times in the field with quite limited resources, but Montgomery finally overwhelmed him in the battles of attrition at El Alamein by having a much more effective supply chain and a lot more equipment. The decisive victory in Africa, however, did not come for the Allies until American forces had landed in the west and moved on Tunisia, while the British forces attacked from the other side. I do not say that to downgrade the British effort in any way...they fought magnificently in North Africa. I simply say it because it's true. The Brits needed American help to clear North Africa of the German-Italian forces. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:55 AM And also not forgetting of course the tens of thousands of brave Irishmen who defied the IRA collaborators and flocked to join British forces. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: GUEST,Oakville Date: 01 Sep 08 - 03:40 AM Gulliver, I could not agree more with you in your assessment of poor Keith TA. If we were discussing in-growing toenails he would swing it around to an attack on the Irish ! Did you notice Keith TA couldn't provide an offical link for his slur on the Irish, so his comment should be removed from the thread. No official source provided yet again Keith TA, just more anti-Irish propaganda. Keith TA always seems use the terms "I meant" or "I got the quote slightly wrong" (check above for examples). Yes Sandy, I also noticed Keith TA excluded the Canadians and ANZACS. I found that disrespectful. Foolestroupe, if memory serves me correctly, Keith excluded the role of the Poles in World War Two sometime last year in another thread. Liz, history has recorded the gallant role of the Free Polish pilots in the Battle of Britain, as you have seen in that post by Keith. He has excluded them because they were not British. Little Hawk, you are indeed correct, Britain NEVER once stood alone against Japan. Please see Keith's comment for what they really are. Keith, what about the Russians ???????????? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Manitas_at_home Date: 01 Sep 08 - 04:34 AM The Russians didn't join in until they were attacked in 1941. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 01 Sep 08 - 11:18 AM Orville, the link I posted was to an article by Brian Hanley, a professor of Irish History at National University of Ireland . It appeared in the journal History Ireland, and all the sources for it are republican publications. It was discussed here when the article was still on the journal's web site. I can point you to the old link, chunks of its text and discussion by Reublican Mudcatters. You do yourself no favours by denying its authenticity. Do you think I forged it all between our posts? And it was no slur on the Irish. IRA quizlings and collaborators were not representative of the Irish people. Britain and Empire stood alone in 1940, with brave volunteers from other countries serving in her forces. Britain received no support from US while fighting Japanese in the first year after they entered the war. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 01 Sep 08 - 11:51 AM Cartoon by Lowe, may 1940 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: GUEST,Oakville Date: 01 Sep 08 - 11:56 AM Hi Keith TA From: Keith TA of Hertford Date: 31 Aug 08 - 07:23 AM The new rules ban BS threads being started by Guests. Bye bye. Sorry, just had to post that as you didn't seem to expect me to be still here. I am so glad to see in your last post you included the Empire, you seemed to have caused some insult in overlooking the Polish/Australia/New Zealand/Indian/Canadian forces in your initial posts on this thread. Thanks for admitting YOU DON'T have an OFFICIAL link for your earlier slurs against the Irish. May I ask why you are such a bigot towards the Irish ? I see other members seem to share this opinion. Anyway, good to see you admit you were wrong and admit your faults "I meant" or "I got the quote slightly wrong". You should really consider apologizing to Gulliver, Sandy, Foolestroupe, Liz and Little Hawk. "When I said Britain, I meant Britain and Empire" We would never have guessed that one Keith TA |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 01 Sep 08 - 12:22 PM Orville, most people understand that Britain and Empire fought as one in both world wars. We just assume it. Do I deny it? I remembered that quote pretty well after 3 years. I got the meaning exactly right. Can you point to one single slur from me against the Irish people? Go on. Just one. Or one example of bigotry. I challenge and defy you to find one. If not you should withdraw that insult. If you do not I hope the moderators will do something about it this time. (small hope though) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Joe Offer Date: 01 Sep 08 - 12:23 PM Back off, Oakville and Keith, and the rest of you. You're getting a little too personal in your arguments. Stick to the subject, not to personalities. -Joe Offer, Forum Moderator- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 01 Sep 08 - 12:27 PM History Ireland are relaunching their site soon. http://www.historyireland.com/ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Riginslinger Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:16 PM I wonder how it would have worked out, if they'd been allowed to close the deal? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:52 PM "The Russians didn't join in until they were attacked in 1941." Correct, Manitas. They did the sane and sensible thing under the circumstances (from the point of view of their own nation's survival interests) and did not join in. Why the hell would they have joined in???? They were very eager to avoid a war with Germany by any means possible. If Hitler had had any sense himself, he would have been equally eager to avoid a war with Russia by any means possible, and he could have done so....just don't attack them! There is no reason to heap guilt upon the Russians for not entering the war until being attacked. America also did not enter the war until being attacked. Let's do a little historical list here of what happened in the early part, very briefly. 1. Hitler threatened Poland repeatedly and provoked a crisis. Why? Because he really wanted to annex Poland and reclaim territory that had been under German control prior to WWI. 2. The British and French took a stand over that and said that a German attack on Poland would result in a British-French declaration of war on Germany. They no doubt expected that this would make Hitler back down. 3. Hitler didn't back down for at least two reasons: a) he thought the British and French were bluffing and that they would back down first. b) He stunned everyone by successfully forming a non-aggression pact with Stalinist Russia and partitioning Poland between Germany and Russia (thus restoring also to the Russians some Polish territory that Russia had controlled before WWI). The latter was a particularly adroit move on Hitler's part, since it played to both German and Russian desires. Poland had not even existed as an independent nation in the era prior to WWI, it had been German and Russian territory. Therefore the Germans and Russians both felt that the new political entity of Poland was an aberration and that they should restore things as they had been not too long ago. The Poles, needless to say, felt differently. They had a keen desire for sovereignty and were harkening back to more ancient times when Poland had been a great nation and the Russians had been just a bunch of lowly Cossack tribesmen.... ;-) These things change as time goes by. 4. Okay. So Hitler didn't back down. He miscalculated the British and French reaction. He attacked Poland. That's case #1 of someone launching an unprovoked attack in WWII. 5. Russia attacked Poland. That's case #2 of someone launching an unprovoked attack in WWII. 6. Britain and France declared war on Germany (but not Russia). That's case #3 of someone going to war in WWII by their own free choice. You can argue it back and forth about whether they were provoked...but they had not themselves been attacked. So......looking at it from the German point of view...and that's what the Germans would do..........the UK and France started WWII! And they would be to blame for it. Now, that's not what I'm saying, okay? No, I say that Hitler was to blame for it. He should not have attacked Poland. But from Hitler's point of view he had good reasons to attack Poland, and it was no business of the British and French, so he would feel that the world war that followed was caused by the British and French, not by him. Let me give you a modern example of where similar thinking could lead now. The USA feels it has a right to attack countries like Afghanistan, Iraq, and Iran if and when it wants to, regardless of what anyone else thinks. That was exactly the kind of thing Hitler thought and did. Suppose the USA decided to attack Iran. Suppose that Russia and China felt in a strong enough position militarily to say, "If you do that we will declare war on you." Suppose the USA thought they were bluffing and did it anyway? And then it turned out they weren't bluffing! See the parallel? Now, if that were ever to happen, would the USA believe that it had started WWIII???? NO! They would believe the Russians and Chinese had. In just that same manner, I'm sure that Hitler thought that the UK and France had started WWII. Everyone sees these things from their own selfish viewpoint. The UK and France did not have to go to war with Germany over Poland. A German occupation of Poland was no direct threat to the UK and France, but they had got their backs up over a series of earlier ambitious moves by Germany in Central Europe, and they felt strong enough to face off against Germany by 1939, so they drew the line. They took a calculated risk. France lost out when they risked that war. So did Germany, in the long run. Whoever had won that war, though, they would have seen themselves as the "good guys" afterwards, I assure you, and the other side would have been accused forever afterward of starting the war and would have got the whole blame for it. ***** Keith, you said: "Britain received no support from (the) US while fighting (the) Japanese in the first year after they entered the war." Please explain what you mean by that? I simply don't follow you. Seems to me that the British, Americans, Dutch, Australians, New Zealanders, and Chinese all fought the Japanese full out from Dec 7/41 to the end...each fighting with whatever forces they had wherever they could feasibly bring them to bear. The British therefore fought the Japanese from the west (India-Burma), the Americans from the east, Australia and New Zealand from the south, the Chinese from inside China. They each fought the Japanese from wherever they were physically based to be able to do so. I don't call that "receiving no support", I call it mutual cooperation in a common cause. Are you thinking that the Americans should have somehow transported 100,000 men to India and put an American fleet in the Indian Ocean in 1942 to help the British??? Heh! Well, I'm sure they would have been delighted to do so if they had had the means to...but they are not God. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: GUEST,Oakville Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:08 PM Thanks Joe. I agree, it seems a Territorial thing ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:31 PM Dorkville, you replied to Joe but not to me. Are you going to justify accusing me of bigotry and making slurs against the people of Ireland, or are you going to withdraw? And will you heed Joe's warning and start forming arguments instead of personal attacks? Little Hawk, Britain and the Anzacs fought a lonely war in Malaya and Singapore. As you say, USA was in no position to help. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:42 PM Okay, Keith, I think we understand each other. ;-) Basically, everyone did whatever they were required to, given the circumstances they had to work with. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: GUEST,Oakville Date: 01 Sep 08 - 03:09 PM Excellent post Gulliver, I was just reading up on what you had said regarding the British Fascists and Nazi sympathisers active in Britain in the 1930's. I wasn't aware of the extent the British royal family were involved. Reading about the fifth columnist's too, you couldn't trust anyone it seems, some nasty chaps about then, even in the Territorial army ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Leadbelly Date: 01 Sep 08 - 04:07 PM The following excerpt comes from a contact with a person well known in Britain. I received this mail in 2005 whithout asking about WWII. Originally this thread was about George Formby and Lonnie Donegan. "Talking about ending that bloody war: I was only watching a programme on cable recently, when it reported that Hitler made no less than five offers of peace, starting with the first in October 1939, and not one of these was taken up by us British. The 60-year embargo, now having resulted in many formerly secret documents being deemed *de-restricted*, has revealed that Hitler was firmly behind Hess's ill-fated peace mission, and that he had made positive contacts for an engineered peace, with Lord Halifax, along with several members of the Royal Household, and allegedly the Duke of Kent, who was later mysteriously *accidentally* killed, when the aircraft he was flying in, struck a Scottish mountain, and exploded with the loss of all, except one, on board. It was absolute madness that we two peoples should take up arms against each other. We had everything going for us, at the time, and Germany - light years ahead of the world, in just about every aspect of modern science and industry - would have been the ideal partner, in our own Deutsche/Englische Europe. If England and Germany had combined their efforts, together they could have smashed the Bolshevicks and set up a Democratic government in Russia...with what was left of the slaughtered Romanovs as constitutional rulers. As it was, England lost everything, the Russians increased their sphere of influence all over Eastern Europe, and the Americans barged in as usual, scooping up all the prizes." I was a little bit astonished about attitude, Manfred |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 01 Sep 08 - 04:28 PM Oakville, you have posted again, but again neglected to say why you accused me of bigotry against the Irish, and of casting slurs upon them. Is it because you were unable to challenge my arguments so you resorted to making up lies? Please respond. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: GUEST,Oakville Date: 01 Sep 08 - 04:38 PM Thank you so much Leadbelly for sharing that with us. It is very honest and thought provoking. Good one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 01 Sep 08 - 05:00 PM Once again a guest comes on, smears a member with unfounded and untrue accusations, and walks away. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Lox Date: 01 Sep 08 - 05:04 PM As an Irishman who is aware of the link between the Nazi's and the IRA, but who is also aware that the extermination of the jews was not publicised in the UK as the reason for fighting the germans (for fear that the British public would blame the jews for the war - hence jewish refugee/concentration camps on the Isle of Man), I would be grateful if you could provide a link or other source material to support your assertion that the IRA approved of the slaughter of the Jews. It is a bold assertion to make and as such deserves thorough support. If the evidence exists it will be on more than one website and will have withstood its own measure of scrutiny. In the lengthy absence of such evidence your remarks are likely to look inflammatory and insulting. Reasons why such evidence is unnecessary or unavailable, or sexed up alternative evidence are unlikely to serve as effective substitutes for the evidence itself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: GUEST,Oakville Date: 01 Sep 08 - 05:18 PM Keith, I have found no bigotry or slurs in your posts. I take it back. I am ashamed.
-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 01 Sep 08 - 05:27 PM Oakville, thanks. It is forgotten. Lox, did you use my link. The article was in the journal, and the sources are all given and are republican publications. You need to take up you query with the learned professor. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: GUEST,Oakville Date: 01 Sep 08 - 06:08 PM Dear Joe or clone, for the second time today I find myself contacting you to remove a FAKE POST done in my name (probably by Keith). PLEASE WOULD YOU REMOVE IT AND CHECK THE IP ADDRESS OF THE PERSON DOING IT. This is the fake post by Keith Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: GUEST,Oakville Date: 01 Sep 08 - 05:18 PM Keith, I have found no bigotry or slurs in your posts. I take it back. I am ashamed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: GUEST,Oakville Date: 01 Sep 08 - 06:13 PM Lox, well said "It is a bold assertion to make and as such deserves thorough support." You did well to question that link above.Why all this Irish hatred from this guy ? See he is now posting comments using my name "Oakville" to favour himself. I think Joe will possibly be having a word or two with him AGAIN ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Sep 08 - 06:48 PM That's the problem with being a Guest, Oakville. Anyone can then steal your name and pretend that they are you. I suggest you join and post as a forum member in order to avoid that happening. How else can you protect your identity here? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Riginslinger Date: 01 Sep 08 - 06:55 PM "(for fear that the British public would blame the jews for the war - hence jewish refugee/concentration camps on the Isle of Man)," There is a lot of information in this little blurb, but were there Jewish concentration camps on the Isle of Man? And, if so, how in the world did they come to be there? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Teribus Date: 02 Sep 08 - 01:21 AM "Britain stood alone because Britain had no other even vaguely palatable choice to make after the Fall of France but to stand alone. They were forced to stand alone. They simply did what they had to do. Germany also stood alone in Europe after their various European allies surrendered...for the same reason...they had no choice about it." - Little Hawk Take Britain first, palatable choice or no, in 1940 Britain did have a choice, take the easy (if humiliating) way out, or stand and fight, they chose to continue the war, directing at the same time that if Britain should suffer the same fate as France the war was to be continued by what remained of her Empire. Now take Germany. Germany stood alone and continued the war because of one man - Adolf Hitler, no other reason. Had the July Bomb Plot succeeded the war would have ended very soon after. Allied Heads of Government had long since agreed between themselves that the terms of the surrender for the Axis Powers would be unconditional surrender. Everybody knew that Hitler would never agree to such terms, his Generals on the other hand would in order to "save" what was left of Germany. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Little Hawk Date: 02 Sep 08 - 03:01 AM I agree with you 100% on all of that. It would have been a blessing for Germany if the July plot had succeeded and Hitler had been killed or at least removed from power. It would have been an even greater blessing if he'd been removed from power by other Germans a good deal sooner than July '44. ***** I think, though, that the rather modern concept of demanding "unconditional surrender" of people in war is a pointless and a very poor notion (one designed to impress one's own people and humiliate other people...because all surrenders in fact involve the setting of various conditions upon which the surrender is negotiated and arranged. Even so-called "unconditional surrender" does...and the setting of those conditions involves discussions and negotiations between the top military people on both sides, representing their governments. Example: U.S. Grant always demanded unconditional surrender during the US Civil War, and he became famous for it. Well, it sounded mighty impressive, but it always involved discussions between General Grant and his Confederate counterparts, and as a result of those discussions various conditions were then agreed upon. It did NOT end up being truly unconditional. Therefore, it's a misnomer. There are in truth no unconditional surrenders in any organized war, merely conquerors who pretend that there are in order to puff out their chests, make their own people go into a frenzy of national pride, and humiliate the other side utterly, and act like King Shit for a day. I am not well impressed by the moral fiber of anyone who demands unconditional surrender of his worthy opponents at the conclusion of a battle or a campaign. It's the mark of the barbarian as far as I'm concerned. It's a very sad precedent to bring to warfare. It's the kind of thing Hitler would have richly enjoyed doing himself, I imagine, just to demonstrate the old "Master Race" ethic in as arrogant a way as possible and shove his boot in the face of the fallen. I despise this business of defeating an army or a nation and demanding "unconditional surrender" of them. It stinks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Little Hawk Date: 02 Sep 08 - 03:02 AM We cross-posted, Oakville. My post was directed to Teribus in response to his last post. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: GUEST,Oakville Date: 02 Sep 08 - 03:13 AM Yes LH, I understood that, excellent post by the way. Still trying to come to terms with that post by member Keith at - 05:18 PM, why would anyone do such a terrible thing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Manitas_at_home Date: 02 Sep 08 - 04:27 AM "There is no reason to heap guilt upon the Russians for not entering the war until being attacked." I wasn't - I was just pointing out that they were not on the side of the UK in 1940. Someone up above asked "what about the Russians" and I answered. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 02 Sep 08 - 05:52 AM Joe, with respect, I did not know that rule. My understanding and experience is that anyone in the world is allowed to post as a guest and choose any name. I thought that the only restriction was on starting BS threads. To set the record straight: 1 Oakville did not say that he found no slurs or bigotry in my posts. He should have, because there are none. But he is allowed to lie about that. 2 He did not withdraw. He should have because it was groundless slander, but his posts are allowed to stand. 3 He is not ashamed. This is true. He has no concept of shame. Oakville, why should I do such a thing? Because I have had the same abuse over and over again. How many times haveI had to challenge and defy (usually using that expression) a guest to substantiate? Every time they have just ignored it and moved on, just as you did. Then a guest with the same style but a different name does it to me in the next thread. But this is allowed. And I have to just take it, because I am a member. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: GUEST,Oakville Date: 02 Sep 08 - 06:00 AM Joe, for the benefit of everyone on the site, would you please explain to this person who posts under the name of another visitor that doing this is the most despicable act a member can do. He logged out to do it, and now claims he did not know. Please publicly reply to Keith. This was the most disgusting and underhand action I have ever encountered on this site. T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 02 Sep 08 - 06:31 AM Lox, here is the Universty site with an email address for Dr. Brian Hanley, author and historian, who wrote that piece in History Ireland. http://history.nuim.ie/staff/BrianHanley_000.shtml |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Riginslinger Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:21 AM I'm still curious about concentration camps on the Isle of Man, if anyone knows about such things. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:25 AM I have never made an anti Irish post. You are lying again. But that is OK, because you are a guest, and because you are "known to a number of members." I wonder who those members are, and if they approve of your conduct here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Manitas_at_home Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:29 AM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_concentration_and_internment_camps#Isle_of_Man [edit] Isle of Man During World War I the British government interned male citizens of the Central Powers, principally Germany, Austria-Hungary and Ottoman Turkey.[41] They were held mainly in internment camps at Knockaloe, close to Peel, and a smaller one near Douglas. During World War II, about 8,000 people were interned in Britain, many being held in the same camps at Knockaloe and Douglas on the Isle of Man. The internees included enemy aliens from the Axis Powers, principally Germany and Italy.[42] Initially, refugees who had fled from Germany were also included, as were suspected British Nazi sympathisers such as British Union of Fascists leader Oswald Mosley. The British government rounded up 74,000 German, Austrian and Italian aliens. Within 6 months the 112 alien tribunals had individually summoned and examined 64,000 aliens, and the vast majority were released, having been found to be "friendly aliens" (mostly Jews); examples include Hermann Bondi and Thomas Gold and later members of the Amadeus Quartet. British nationals were detained under Defence Regulation 18B. Eventually only 2,000 of the remainder were interned. Initially they were shipped overseas, but that was halted when a German U boat sank the SS Arandora Star in July 1940 with the loss of 800 internees, though this was not the first loss that had occurred. The last internees were released late in 1945, though many were released in 1942. In Britain, internees were housed in camps and prisons. Some camps had tents rather than buildings with internees sleeping directly on the ground. Men and women were separated and most contact with the outside world was denied. A number of prominent Britons including writer H. G. Wells campaigned against the internment of refugees. See also: Defence Regulation 18B |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:50 AM Not quite accurate to refer to them as Jewish concentration camps then. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Riginslinger Date: 02 Sep 08 - 10:17 AM I agree, Keith. The concept doesn't seem to work. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 02 Sep 08 - 11:17 AM Lox, you wrote, In the lengthy absence of such evidence your remarks are likely to look inflammatory and insulting. I have responded to you twice already. The remarks were not mine. The anti semitic stuff was found in issues of War News from that period by historian Brian Hanley of The National University of Ireland and published in History Ireland. Now please, which part of that do you doubt? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Stu Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:00 PM "We had everything going for us, at the time, and Germany - light years ahead of the world, in just about every aspect of modern science and industry - would have been the ideal partner, in our own Deutsche/Englische Europe." Light years ahead in the industrial slaughter of innocents certainly. With hindsight the person who wrote this wouldn't say that in the end the murder of 6,000,000,000 Jews in the Holocaust was a blip in policy by a our ideal partner? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: GUEST,Oakville Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:42 PM Agreed Lox, the absence of any evidence by Keith shows his post was not only another insult to the Irish, but also blatantly bigoted. God alone knows why he is permitted to post such unsubstantiated rubbish along with blatantly faking two posts claiming to be me (caught and exposed by no less than Joe himself, see post 01 Sep 08 - 05:18 PM above. Worry not my friend, he is digging a big hole for himself, I imagine due to loss of face and credibility here after being publicly disciplined and exposure to the vile crime of posturing as another he will leave the site.
-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Big Al Whittle Date: 02 Sep 08 - 01:10 PM Never mind Oakville. (Please change the name - I keep thinking of Keith Harris! i wish i could fly right up to the sky (but you can't)..... but then that would leave Keith (from hertford) to take over the Oakville persona. In fact how do we know its not keith (from Hertford) denouncing himself and..... oh I give up! I mean who knows who the hell we're all talking to. We could all be talking to ourselves. I could be a figment of your imagination. Because if you were mad, you wouldn't know you were making me up.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: ard mhacha Date: 02 Sep 08 - 01:56 PM Really enjoyable Thread, and don`t forget the Chezk pilots and Finucane from Limerick. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Little Hawk Date: 02 Sep 08 - 03:07 PM Good lord, stigweard. I was not aware that the Nazis had killed 6 trillion Jews till I read this thread... Clearly it was a typo! Well, they reputedly killed about 6 million Jews in the camps. They also killed a lot of other people in those concentration camps, but for all you hear about that, it might never have happened. Some people die, and nobody bothers to say "boo" about it. That's politics for you. When there is a big political agenda to push, you hear about it. When there isn't, you don't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Leadbelly Date: 02 Sep 08 - 03:59 PM stigweard - I do understand your comment very well. And for the same reason I was very irritated about this attitude. As I said before, it came from a prominent Britain. He's still alive and therefore I'm not in a situation to present his name. On the other hand I do believe that this kind of attitude is not an exception when asking older people in Britain. Apart from Germany. The old shadows are still alive. I do know, because I'm german. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Big Al Whittle Date: 02 Sep 08 - 06:41 PM 'Apart from Germany. The old shadows are still alive. I do know, because I'm german.' give us a clue, what are you talking about? Hank Marvin, Bruce welch, Jet Harris..... Tony Meehan is dead though. Or is there some hidden meaning? I went to a Jet Harris concert about two years ago. It was full of Dutch and German tribute bands lining up to have their old Extended Play (ep's to those of us who remember such things) records signed. What would one know, because one is German...or English come to that? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Sandy Mc Lean Date: 03 Sep 08 - 12:10 AM "Orville, most people understand that Britain and Empire fought as one in both world wars. We just assume it. Do I deny it?" Keith, I don't believe that insult was your intention. While a part of the Empire, now Commonwealth, Canada shared a common soverign (as it still does) with the UK, but was a nation in its own right. After the invasion of Poland it declared war on Germany a day before the UK did, so perhaps for a short time Canada stood alone. In the first world war the "COLONIALS' were used by Britain as cannon fodder and that was not to be repeated in WW2. Canada and the other Commonwealth countries stood together but history often leaves them on the short end of the stick, as Britain and the USA claim credit for the defeat of Hitler. In truth it was an effort that was inclusive of many and many of that many lie in foreign graves. My grandfather fought in Flanders in WW1 and my brother with the British Navy's Fleet air Arm in WW2 (a long story). A cousin died on the beaches of Normandy, but they were Canadians. Britain did not stand alone, but always had our support. Hollywood movies of the wars have also been insulting to our veterans because they have been left out of the role that they played in winning the war. The Devils Brigade being an exception. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 03 Sep 08 - 01:36 AM Yes Sandy, we are as one on that. I also know that losses were proportionally higher. Your family history is an example of the proportionally higher numbers serving. keith |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Leadbelly Date: 03 Sep 08 - 06:38 AM Not bad at all, Alan. But I think your cd "St Peter and John Dillinger" is much more better than your joke because it's fantastic. Nervertheless; the stones are still rollin'... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Big Al Whittle Date: 03 Sep 08 - 12:15 PM The truth is I'm a bit squeamish about these arguments. Every country has reasons to be ashamed and reasons to be proud. Its rather bad form to keep waving the bad bits under you neighbours nose like these threads involving Keith always seem to end up. the rotten kipper school of diplomacy. i don't say its all his fault, but he never steps back and thinks quietly to himself - so you don't like us, well f--k you! like most people do. we always get chapter and verse about some other unsavoury incident that another country has been involved in. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 03 Sep 08 - 01:11 PM Not all my fault? Thanks Al. I never start these threads, but I do not think it wrong to challenge them. You say, if they do not like us, F... them. I ask them to examine their reasons for disliking us. Just maybe, some reader if not an actual protagonist, may start to question their prejudices. My views have evolved as a result of these exchanges anyway. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Little Hawk Date: 03 Sep 08 - 01:18 PM "Every country has reasons to be ashamed and reasons to be proud." Now, there's a great and powerful truth! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: GUEST,Oakville Date: 03 Sep 08 - 01:40 PM WLD I started a thread regarding a story I saw on the BBC that I thought would brighten up all our day. Six posts into the thread Keith arrived and told me "Bye bye" a few posts later he arrived and brought the Irish into it for no reason, he said "Compare Britain's heroic stand with, say, the IRA who sided with Hitler" what the hell had that to do with it. (He seems to have a thing for the Irish). The rest you know, he resorted to posting fake comments, claiming to come from me.He had to be told off, that was just downright low. If one thing came of of this thread it was the loss of one man's creditability, and it wasn't mine ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Big Al Whittle Date: 03 Sep 08 - 02:09 PM Oakville...your selfless act in pointing out that here in England, we have rather more than our share of mad upper class fascist arseholes - has been noted. We were aware of the problem - its a bit like having rats in the house - you can't really miss them. England also has given the world the music of Andrew Lloyd Webber. Keith and I are wondering why you don't love us a nation unconditionally. for f--k's sake, tell him. I have my suspicions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 03 Sep 08 - 03:04 PM Oakville, in your time at mudcat there have been thousands of amusing news stories, but you chose this to brighten our day? Be honest with yourself. You chose it to show Britain in a bad light. Why. Because you do not like us. Unfortunately, WW2 is one of the few things we got right. We were not Natzi lovers, but an organisation you sympathise with were. But saying that does not make me anti Irish. Ireland was supposed to be neutral but broke the rules to help Britain. Tens of thousands of Irishmen joined British forces. Thousands of Irish women came to be nurses. I love the Irish people. But all you can say against me is bigot. Think about it. The words I put in your mouth were true. You could find no anti Irish posts could you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: GUEST,Oakville Date: 03 Sep 08 - 05:17 PM Sorry.. I can't and won't enter into a discussion with someone exposed on the site for faking comments in a failed attempt to discredit me. I am sure you will understand. Possibly you find this behaviour normal practice in your life and you may have done it many times on the site, sorry but I clearly live with higher moral principles.
Drop it!!!-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Big Al Whittle Date: 03 Sep 08 - 06:47 PM Oh god! 'Unfortunately, WW2 is one of the few things we got right. We were not Natzi lovers, but an organisation you sympathise with were. But saying that does not make me anti Irish.' Unfortunately......you're not sorry we won, are you? It makes you about as anti irish as he is anti english for mentioning the worst excesses of our aristocracy. yes the IRA made some bad calls - Ghadaffi, placing bombs in MacDonalds in Warrington, ETTA, really the whole bloody silly military campaign - when there was a very active anti establishment faction in England that would have gladly represented their cause far better than any number of bombs and bullets, But this jewelled isle set in silver sea has produced a fair old number of shite hawks also, Thatcher being a good case in point. remember what jesus said, about removing the plank from your own eye before having the bad grace to keep picking up on the speck in your neighbours eye. If he does hate us Keith. His punishment is that he lives next door to us. he's our neighbour. he can't do anything about that. he can't get too far away from us. be content with that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: kendall Date: 03 Sep 08 - 07:20 PM The more you stir a turd the more it stinks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Riginslinger Date: 03 Sep 08 - 09:52 PM "The more you stir a turd the more it stinks." Better let Margaret Thatcher sleep. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Sep 08 - 12:29 AM Hmm. But has anyone tried dropping a turd in a blender, putting the machine up to its highest speed setting, throwing in some garlic, some chives, and adding a quart of Gatorade mixed 50/50 with Absorbine Junior? What then? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Big Al Whittle Date: 04 Sep 08 - 04:02 AM I think you may have betrayed the secret formula for Coca Cola. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: ard mhacha Date: 04 Sep 08 - 04:31 AM Weelittledrummer, The funniest one liner yet on this Site. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Sep 08 - 02:08 PM LOL!!! Awright. Good one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Riginslinger Date: 04 Sep 08 - 07:46 PM I'm switching to Pepsi! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: ard mhacha Date: 05 Sep 08 - 03:56 AM Sorry Ringslinger it`s the same recipe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves ! From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Sep 08 - 12:37 PM Only a bit more sugar. |
