Tech: pocket digital recorder

Subject: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: Marc Bernier
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 10:54 AM

I'd like your collective input please. I'm interested in Documenting my performances, not for commercial use but reference and self critique of what is working and not. However I'm a technological Illiterate. I have a hard time surfing the internet. I'm not interested in necessarily coming away with a recording that anyone else will ever listen to. I'm mostly interested in looking at sets to evaluate how much material is being repeated from night to night, and if possible get an idea of what material is being received well or not. Are there any opinions out there as to what type of device I'm looking for? PS. It has to be easy to use; I'm only slightly more intelligent than an idiot.

Subject: RE: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: Fiddlegrrl
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 11:04 AM

I have no idea if this will suit your purposes exactly, but I will give a big hooray to the Olympus Digital Voice Recorder WS-300M. It's small and light and does everything I want it to do, and it's not too expensive. You can find it or similar models (it's about a year old now, so I'm sure you can get one with a little more space/bang for the buck) on Amazon.com and at Best Buy.

Hope this helps.

Subject: RE: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: GUEST,Spotty Muldoon
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 11:09 AM

I suggest you consider EDIROL R09, portable, handy 24 BIT recorder.
They should be obtainable in London for about £260. (The RRP is £300)
Try turnkey.co.uk. for full spec. Records onto solid state in WAV and Mp3 format.

If the price is OTT then consider the KORG D4 around £140.

Subject: RE: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: john f weldon
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 11:27 AM

Which country? Spotty's choices seem a bit hi-end for your stated needs.

Subject: RE: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: Zen
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 11:36 AM

I have a Zoom H2 (cheaper than the Edirol, Korg and Zoom H4 models) which I use for similar uses, and which works very well and is not difficult to use. Sound quality is excellent.

Zen

Subject: RE: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: Marc Bernier
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 11:51 AM

I'm a yank. I live in New England. Thanks for your inputs so far. I think I agree with you John F Weldon, The Edirol appears to have more bells and whistles than I'll be able to figure out. But then again I don't really understand most of what I'm reading when I'm looking at comparisons or descriptions. Zen, you say you're using the Zoom similarly to my description? You'd recommend it?

Subject: RE: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: Nick
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 12:20 PM

I too have a Zoom which I think ou can buy in the US for about $159 from many outlets according to Froogle etc - mine in the UK cost me £138 I think

It is easy to use - you turn it on. Press the big button in the middle and a flashing red light comes on. You press it again and it records. You press it again it stops.

You would need to experiment a bit as it has a LOW MIDDLE HIGH setting - if it's loud choose LOW if it's (say) singing at home or in a pub probably MIDDLE if it's very quiet choose HIGH. You'll soon get the hang of it.

You can choose to record at WAV CD quality or various levels of mp3 - I usually choose 320kbps Mp3 as it is small and reasonable quality. The one thing that you need to experiemnt a bit with is the level you record at - you can make things louder (normalize them) on a computer with something like Audacity or Reaper or similar but if you record them and they clip (distort when they are loudest) then you can't make them better

To copy it to a computer you need a cable (supplied) which goes from USB on computer to the Zoom. Once it's in the computer you can make it louder and then burn it to a cd or do what you want with it. i reckon now after a gig or practice etc I can download and make something reasonable within 10 or 15 minutes.

No effects or anything used

Here are some examples from several different places:

The first is from two live gigs - one a jazz band my son plays in recorded at a wedding recently. The little recorder sat on the floor on the stage so you can hear feet now and again! Also in that folder is an outdoor beer festival we played at the other week - again I turned it on and left it on the front of the stage -

Jazz and outdoor gigs

The next are some things we recorded at home just practicing when a friend came. I just turned it on and put it on the table in the living room

Living room

The last is from a gig where I put it at the back of the hall and just left it on

Living room

Subject: RE: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: astro
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 03:17 PM

If you do a Mudcat search on any of those brand names you will come up with some quite good discussions on the topic from this past year.

~ Desert Dancer on astro's computer
(Becky in Tucson)

Subject: RE: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: Marc Bernier
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 03:32 PM

Thank you Desert Dancer on astro's computer. will do. I did a Mudcat search for "pocket digital recorder", and came up with nothing, that's why I felt I could justify starting my own thread on the subject. I will do a search on the specific brand names though. Sometimes it's simply a matter of how one words the search.

Subject: RE: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 03:48 PM

I have a Sony MZ NH1 MD player/recorder, and I love it.

JM

Subject: RE: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 04:14 PM

I also have a Zoom H2 and it's a dandy! It comes with a whole box of accessories, such as a little screw-on stand, wind screen, a few other odds and ends including a USB chord that you can use to download to a computer--or use the H2 as a direct computer interface. It comes with a 512 MB card, but spend an extra few bucks and get a 4 GB card. Runs on two AA batteries, or with an AC adapter. Four internal microphones you can set to use in different combinations (stereo, surround-sound--great for recording song-fests with other singers, meetings, etc.). Not much bigger than a pack of king-size cigarettes.

Surprisingly good quality, even on "quick and dirty" recordings.

Here ya go!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: GUEST,Zen
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 04:29 PM

Yes... same sort of uses as you want it for Marc. All the best.

Zen

Subject: RE: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: Dave Roberts
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 06:12 PM

A vote for the Edirol R09, which I've used very successfully for all kinds of jobs. It doubles as a playback machine for interval music &c at gigs but then so do other types, I assume.
Sometimes, just for old times sake (and because I have a large stock of cassettes), I use a Marantz CP430 cassette machine for recording and the R09 can give it a run for its money. Which is what you'd expect.

Subject: RE: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: Micca
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 06:23 PM

Marc, I have an Edirol R09 which I will have with me in Maine in October if you want to check it out!!, I relly enjoyed meeting and hearing you at the Portland maritime festival!!,

Subject: RE: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: John J
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 06:44 PM

Like John MacKenzie, I too have a Sony MD recorder. although they may well be regarded as old technolgy - they're reliable, work well, are easy to use and provided good quality recordings. The ability to chop / change the mini-discs adds to their versatility. If I'm going around festival sessions I use one disc for music and another for songs.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: GUEST,BanjoRay
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 07:11 PM

I've had 3 MD recorders over the last eight years which have been excellent for recording sessions. An important snag with them is that you can only transfer to a computer in real time - ie you have to play the track into the computer. You also have to buy a good stereo microphone, which costs as much as the machine. The other snag is that it works mechanically, and it's mechanism is liable to fail sooner or later. When my MD broke down on a recent trip to the Appalachians, I bought a Zoom H2, and I shall never go back to MD. Much more convenient, user friendly, great quality, direct file transfer, superb built in mikes. This is a new recording eon! An eon seems to be about 10 years, these days....
Cheers
Ray

Subject: RE: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: Marc Bernier
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 09:23 PM

Micca! Nice to hear from you. I enjoyed meeting and listening to you as well. So you plan to be in Maine in October. Might this mean you may be in Portsmouth, NH. on Sept. 28?

Subject: RE: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: treewind
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 03:38 AM

I was a MD fan for a long time, but I'm an enthusiastic Edirol R09 user now.
Fast and simple transfer to computer, noise free recording with the built in mics, long recording time and choice of quality/time tradeoff have won the day.

The Zoom H2 is cheaper and probably just as good. It wasn't available when I bought the Edirol.

A dictation-style voice recorder can be much cheaper but you need to evaluate for sound quality. With careful placement, good acoustics and possible good external mics you could make a saleable recording with the Zoom or the Edirol, but you could never say that about a voice recorder. It might still be good enough for your purpose; I know someone who uses a tiny voice recorder for tune sessions and it's certainly good enough to learn tunes from.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 04:00 AM

Zoom H2.

I use the H4; bought in some haste I might add an hour before an event when my MD player packed in - I wasn't even aware of the H2.

The H4 has two main faults: the velcro carriage which is the naffest piece of design I've ever come across, and the next-to-useless 'black nose' wind shield, which I only use for Black Nose Day (in commemoration of all the clowns & storytellers who have died in service to their art) - otherwise for outdoor recording I use a wind shield of a Behringer B1 (large diaphragm condenser) which fits the H4 unit like a glove.

Subject: RE: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: Bruce from Bathurst
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 04:03 AM

I'll give another vote for the Zoom H2. I still have a Sony MD but the Zoom's built in mics make it the winner, even before considering other factors such as the MD's rapidly dating technology and its fragility.

The Zoom fires up quickly and is easy to use. Last weekend I used it at a conference to record a series of short interviews and promo spots 'on the run'. Out of the pocket, turn it on, check the levels and go! Simple. For the money, it's just great. Here in Australia the price has dropped significantly over the past year or so. I guess that's the same in most places.

Bruce

Subject: RE: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: Bruce from Bathurst
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 04:08 AM

Oops!

I forgot to mention that we always use the Zoom for band rehearsals. It has four different mic patterns to choose from and it does its job just sitting there in the middle of the room, soaking everything up.

Record in WAV or MP3, depending on your preference. It's all good.

Bruce

Subject: RE: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: John J
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 04:25 AM

This is very interesting, I think I know what I'll be buying when my MD recorder packs up! Thanks all for the helpful information.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 04:59 AM

I had to buy one quickly last year, and opted for the Zoom H4.
I normally use it in conjunction with a mixing desk for Live recordings. Just set it going at the beginning of a gig, and let it go. (Yes, well worth upgrading to the biggest memory card that you can afford...maybe 2!).

Plus sides, as stated, Rapid File transfer, via USB. Internal mics are great for that spur of the moment recording opportunity.

Downsides....CRAP DISPLAY!!!!!Nurse, where's my magnifying glass?

But, I do all the editing needed when I get home on the computer.
Just keep checking that it's still going "round" (to use quaint old analogue terminology).

H2, H4, Edirol. Choose the one that suits you, probably.
I would advise though that Mini Discs, are likely to not be supported for many more years, probably going the same way as DAT, Phillips DCC, Betamax Videos (remember them?)

Whereas Flash memory cards are used in so many products now, Digi Cams, etc, etc. That this is probably the way forward, until the blasted Japanese come out with something even more outlandish!

Regards Ralphie

Subject: RE: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: Will Fly
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 05:05 AM

I've had 2 Sony MD Diskman recorders for many, many years and can vouch for the quality. I use a Sony stereo condenser mic - original cost about £40 - which gives excellent quality. I've also had dozens of discs for many years and encountered no loss of quality or discs being unplayable. It's been a very under-rated medium and, in spite of several predictions of its imminent demise, is still used in domestic and studio situations.

However, when the time eventually comes to upgrade, the comments about the future unsupportability of the MD medium are probably true - and it will probably be something like the Zoom.

There was a re-run of an "Inspector Morse" episode on TV recently, in which Lewis was exclaiming about a great computer he'd like to have - it two old 5" floppy drives! Those were the days...

Subject: RE: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 05:26 AM

Hi Will.
Couldn't agree more.
I have 3 or 4 MD machines.
All working properly so, far.
Also have 3 DAT M/C's. Only 1 works.
Am desperately trying to transfer all my DAT tapes onto a more sustainable platform, before the Hamster inside dies!!

I'm sure it's a Japanese conspiracy to make us gullible Westerners carry on investing in "their" new technologies, which have built in obscelescence already installed.

Cheers Ralph

Subject: RE: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: mattkeen
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 05:28 AM

H2 Zoom is good for the cheap option

Olympus is really very good, and that includesthe built in mics

Subject: RE: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: Will Fly
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 05:47 AM

Hi GUEST,Ralphie - glad to hear the MDs are still useful. People also predicted the death of vinyl - and it's a flourishing medium even now. When CDs first came out, a good friend of mine sold all his vinyl albums and replaced them with CD versions (!). We had similar tastes, and it's gratifying to know (though I'll never sell them) that my old Topic and Leader/Trailer albums are worth around £45 - and the sound is still superior. The only things I got completely rid of were my cassette tapes - the quality was always poor, and they were constantly getting screwed up in one player or another.

Subject: RE: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 05:51 AM

Will.
Now, Now....You are are very naughty boy, and I accuse you of Grade 1 Thread creep!
Don't even get me started on the Trailer/Leader subject!!!!!
Now.....back to Digi machines.
LOL Ralphie

Mind you, couldn't agree more about cassettes....Pants.

Subject: RE: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 05:58 AM

Also, Will.
Digi technology is only as good as it's been around (CD's 30 years-ish?)
Have got s few early CDs that won't play now. (Wrong type of acidic ink used in the labelling or something.)
But, I've got a dozen or so 78's from the early 20th century, that still play perfectly....Go Figure!!

Subject: RE: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: Will Fly
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 06:29 AM

Sorry - the Leader/Trailer allusion lost me. I'm a relative newbie here so apologise if I touched a raw nerve. Thinks...will check this out in the thread list...

Subject: RE: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 06:33 AM

Thats OK Will, No offence meant. And none taken, Honest
If you want to waste several hours of your V Important time, just type in Nic Jones....and watch your PC explode!!
Meanwhile.....Back to the subject in hand
Ralphie

Subject: RE: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: Will Fly
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 06:49 AM

Lord yes! I use a Mac, not a PC, and the lid vibrated! :-)

Subject: RE: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: Mark Ross
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 09:39 AM

The older the technology, the longer it lasts. Consider CARVED IN STONE!

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: john f weldon
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 09:53 AM

Marc - if yr not concerned over quality, and already own a digital camera, you may be able to set it to record audio only thru a built-in mike. Sounds like shite, but costs zero.

Subject: RE: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: Mr Red
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 11:17 AM

If you get a recording MP3 unit it will serve several purposes.
I use mine mostly as a USB memory device, and for remembering information given to me at folk festivals. And listening to the radio but reception is usually iffy in such a small device.

Subject: RE: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 11:31 AM

Hi Kids: ZOOM H2...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGUgmV9nR0s&feature=related
bob

Subject: RE: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 11:39 AM

ZOOM H4...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0h5e3R1QPY&feature=related
bob

Subject: RE: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:23 PM

Zoom H2 - just read the reviews

Subject: RE: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: Marc Bernier
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 05:46 PM

Thank you for your collective inputs. Between your comments and my limited comprehension of the information I was receiving on various internet comparisons of various machines. I have just bought a Zoom H2, to be delivered to my home in 4-6 working days. I will report back in a couple weeks and tell you what I think of your collective opinions.

Subject: RE: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: MaineDog
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 05:53 PM

I just got one of those recently, it works great, but I don't seem to get the advertised battery life. Keep lots of spare alkalines handy.
MD

Subject: RE: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: Nick
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 05:59 PM

Rechargeables when out or use the mains. I find that decent batteries give few problems.

As a bonus I also used mine as an mp3 player on holiday and filled the 4gb card with music

Subject: RE: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: Marc Bernier
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 02:38 PM

Well, I'v used my new Zoom H2 a couple of times now and I think it's great. Now can someone tell me what I have to do to break my 2-3 hour performance recording into individual tracks. I assume I'll need some new software. I knew this would grow into something else the minute I started.

Subject: RE: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: open mike
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 02:51 PM

a recorder i have (marantz/superscope c.d. recorder) seperates into tracks if you hit the pause button between songs or tunes. does the H2 have a remote that you could do that with?h?

by the way Marc, were you in Chico a few years ago?
did we share a dinner with Utah Phillips before the
Butte Folk Music Society concert?

Subject: RE: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: Bernard
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 02:55 PM

Download Audacity - it's free, and as simple as you need it to be.

If you need help with it, practcally everyone who edits their own stuff will have used it at some time or other!

Subject: RE: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: Bernard
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 03:38 PM

Programs like Audacity make editing fairly straightforward - you can actually see where the gaps are, and can 'top and tail' each song/tune as needed.

Trying to edit 'on the fly' is inherently risky, as it is inevitable that the one bit you wanted recording happened just as you had hit pause! You can always delete the bits you don't want afterwards, but a missed opportunity is a different matter!

I do appreciate your original intention, but things have a habit of going off in another direction once you find out what can be done!

Subject: RE: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: Marc Bernier
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 04:19 PM

Open Mike; I'm usually not capable of doing anything else while I'm performing. All thinking stops when I start to sing. The Last time I was in Chico was around '90 '91, and I don't recall seeing Utah Phillips on that trip. Although there were a few evenings that I didn't remember too well.

Bernard, Thank you, I'm going to give audacity a look at.

Subject: RE: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: Bernard
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 04:46 PM

Programs like Audacity can be a bit off-putting the first time you are faced with them, but it's really only like using a wordprocessor with some different controls!

The most important thing to remember is NEVER edit the original, always edit a copy! Things will always go wrong when they are least expected to! (Murphy's Law)

Subject: RE: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 06:16 PM

I have a Zoom H2 and the machine itself gives you the facility to split up one track into several tracks. Have you checked the manual for this? it's on page 53 of my manual!

Subject: RE: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: Nick
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 06:49 PM

Marc I too use Audacity sometimes but prefer Reaper which I think is worth the investment in time as it can do lots more.

Subject: RE: Tech: pocket digital recorder
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 09:59 AM

Has anyone got any thoughts or advice about the Input Level control on the Edirol R-09?

I recently used mine on a local history project and recorded an interview with an elderly neighbour. My mate, who was the interviewer, sat in one chair and the interviewee in another about 1.5 to 2 metres away. I placed the Edirol on a coffee table midway between them and about 1.5 metres in front of them.

When I came to play the recording back, after downloading to my computer, I found that the elderly lady's voice was perfectly audible but a little faint. I turned the computer speakers' volume control up as high as it would go but could still have done with a bit more volume.

I subsequently played around with the Edirol's 'Input Level' controls, while recording the sound from my TV. I found that, even with the Input Level set at maximum ('30' - whatever that is) I was getting no clipping when the unit was about 1.5 metres from the TV with the sound at a comfortable level for my hearing. I had to turn the TV up quite loud to get any clipping at all, hence the lower settings for Input Level (<30) seemed superfluous. Am I doing something wrong or should I always have the Input Level at max except when recording Heavy Metal Rock (very unlikely!) or something?