Dogs at Festival

Subject: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,Sandra
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 09:33 AM

I wonder if I could ask for your help? A child was bitten by a dog at SFF and needed seven stitches. If anyone has any views on dogs at festivals would you be so good as to post on here or the festival blog - over the coming weeks we are going to decided if we should ban them or not. Many thanks for your help.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: nickp
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 09:51 AM

There was some fuss with dogs on the 'showground' area at Towersey. No people involved but certainly one worrying dog fight in an area where there were children. There may be some similar thoughts about restrictions. Try contacting them via the website.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,not a dog owner
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 09:53 AM

Personally I think it'd be a shame if one regrettable incident caused a blanket ban. I have absolute sympathy with the child & child's family of course and there is no excuse for having an unreliable uncontrolled dog in a public space frequented by vulnerable children. But... so long as dogs are controlled and friendly I like having them around at festivals even though I don't have one myself. I have sevaral festival going friends with dogs who would not be able to go to places like Shrewsbury if they couldn't take their pets along. How about a "dog's to be kept on a lead at all times" rule (or maybe you have one of them already)?

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Joseph P
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 10:00 AM

"How about a "dog's to be kept on a lead at all times" rule (or maybe you have one of them already)? "

Sounds good to me. Dog owners sometimes forget that other people don't like being near dogs. Even if people think their dog is perfectly well behaved, you never know what may happen.

It's sad that common sense doesn't always prevail.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,Gadaffi
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 10:03 AM

My daughter's boyfriend camped next door to a tent whose owners left their dog in their tent at Towersey last year. It was a hot day. When it got out, it went beserk, and clawed and ripped boyfriend's rather expensive tent. I think an apology was proferred, but compensation fell short of the tent's worth.

Ban the lot, I say! Guide dogs excepted, of course.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,Sandra
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 10:06 AM

We have said for years that dogs must be kept on leads at all times. Most people are very good and do comply. We did have to clean up dog muck which was very close to the children's venues.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,Golightly
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 10:13 AM

I'd definitely prefer dogs to be kept out of concerts, bars, food areas at festivals, as much for hygiene as for safety. A dog once jumped onto my lap and it hadn't cleaned its bum properly. Imagine that when you haven't got a change of clothes handy!
I hate the thought of dog hair, slobber, even poo, on my chair, clothes etc. Sorry if some people couldn't attend a festival without their dog, but it's not unusual for dogs to barred from public places.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: .spiderman
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 10:33 AM

"...and it hadn't cleaned its bum properly" - what a careless dog, perhaps it ran out of loo paper!!

Seriously, I too witnessed a couple of dog fights at Shrewsbury and it was quite frightening. I am a dog lover but unfortunately a minority of dog owners seem unable or unwilling to control their pets. Dogs are not allowed at Cambridge FF and that doesn't seem to put people off from going, it is a very busy and popular festival so it seems that dog owning folk fans are able to find alternative accomodation for their pets when attending festivals.

How do people feel about dogs barking during performances? This certainly happened a few times at Shrewsbury.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 10:37 AM

As the owner of a large extremely well behaved labrador/Rhodesian ridgeback cross, I heartily agree with GUEST,not a dog owner. There is absoutely no excuse for bringing an unruly dog into a public area and especially not if there's a risk of it biting someone. And yes, dogs should be kept on leads at all times in confined spaces and away from places where food is being served. That is called responsible dog ownership.

But the vast majority of dogs are well behaved and friendly and do not make nuisances of themselves. Would anyone seriously consider a universal ban on people at festivals because a small minority cause offence by getting drunk?

Rather than banning dogs per se, why not ban the owners of any dogs who are seen not be controlling them properly?

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Acorn4
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 10:43 AM

I think perhaps a good compromise might be allowed on site but on a lead and not in venues. There were certainly some rather loud ones in the concerts at times and a fight between two dogs that I witnessed.

Most dog owners seem responsible enough and have well trained pets, but there are a small minority of those who ,perhaps, just want them as an accessory to go with the 4 x 4.

I wouldn't like to see a complete ban.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: pavane
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 10:44 AM

You would think that people would realise that dogs are not welcome at HORSE shows either, but people still bring them, and ignore all the signs about leads. A small dog running into the jumping ring can totally destroy someone's chances in the competition.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,Sabot Hure
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 10:51 AM

Thank you for that hint, pavane. You might think that a large dog would cause even more disruption, but a small one fits neatly into a rucksac.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Mick Woods
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 10:57 AM

Dogs are nice animals but I'm afraid a lot of dog owners are not! They can't be bothered to keep control or clean up the shit.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: John J
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 11:01 AM

I'm not a dog owner - and definitely not a dog fan.

In my opinion dogs shouldn't be banned (certainly not because of one unfortunate incident) but the owners should most definitely be made to be absolutely responsible for their doggies; they shouldn't impinge on anyone's enjoyment in any way. This means dogs being kept on leads and under control at all times, absolutely no doggie deposits anywhere, and no doggie noises in concerts - which probably means no dogs in concerts (apart from Guide Dogs of course).

At the end of the day festival goers don't want their festival ruined by dog noise / mess etc, and they most certainly don't want to be worried by out of control dogs - nor do they want to see a doggie in distress because of a thoughtless and irresponsible owner.

Doggies may like folk music too!

JJ

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: pavane
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 11:06 AM

My point was really that many dog owners apparently cannot be trusted to obey the rules. It is too late once the damage is done. (And smaller dogs DO seem to be more of a problem to us.)

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,Dazbo at work
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 11:06 AM

Whilst I wasn't at Shrewsbury (and not a dog owner although I grew up with a dog always in the family) I'd like to say that even the best behaved and even tempered dogs can snap when surprised or stressed. Many young children (and not so young) almost seem to think that a dog is like a teddy bear: you can play with it how you like with impunity. A dog owner, even with the dog on a lead, cannot prevent every child pulling or treading on the dog's tail for example.

I'd vote for dogs on leads at all times and not allowed in concert/dance venues (and perhaps muzzled?)

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 11:11 AM

Just an afterthought to my previous posting. The one and only time my dog caused a nuisance in a public place was during a singing session at the English Country Music Weekend on a very hot day. Not unnaturally he decided to start panting. (Dogs do that to cool down, not as is commonly believed, because they're thirsty.) That would have been ok, except that my canine companion is the noisiest panter in creation. As soon as I realised that the racket was coming from the area round my feet and not from a nearby cement mixer, we left with as far as I could tell no ill feeling from anyone.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 11:15 AM

I suspect that this was a random event that might happen if you get lots and lots of people together. I think the more important point is that with so many people, booze and excitement more random accidents will happen. The most important measure must be the ability of the organisers to provide appropriate help

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 11:18 AM

I have been bitten twice by dogs and my daughter was bitten at a festival in France and had to have rabies injections at the age of four.

On each occasion the dog-owner said the equivalent of "He's never done that before". When walking up to the Loxley Valley which is near my house there are loads of dog owners walking their dogs off the lease and many of them come slobbering up to me. "He's only being friendly" they say. Not as far as I am concerned he isn't.

No thanks, and not at festivals. Why on earth you would want to bring a dog to a folk festival?

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Dave Earl
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 11:21 AM

It is my view that (at festivals or not) there are no bad dogs but a great number bad owners#

Dave

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Mad Spaniel
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 11:21 AM

I am (as you can guess) a dog owner and i hope, a good one with regards to behavoir and picking up.
However dogs don't behave as humans do and sometimes we put them in situations that are confusing and upsetting for them.
Too many people, too much noise and lots of temptations.
You have to know your dog but personally they should stay at home where they are safe and usually happier. Dog/house sitters have always worked well for me.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,Snoopy
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 11:27 AM

"Any cats in there?"

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: nutty
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 11:35 AM

I have two dogs (noisy terriers) which stay at home when I go to festivals.

I only have a small camper van which I am reluctant to leave them in when I am otherwise engaged and very few festivals have exercise areas suitable for dogs off leaders.

Having said that many of my friends with large campers or caravans had perfectly adequate facilities for their dogs.

What does disturb me (and I saw far too much of it at Whitby this year) is the owner who insists on bringing a dog into a hot crowded bar or singaround/session.

They do no favours either to the dog or the rest of te people in there.
Totally selfish and thoughtless in my opinion.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Mooh
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 11:37 AM

Got two well behaved dogs and wouldn't dream of taking them to s festival. Crowds, unfamiliar places, and loud noises are a sure way of stressing a dog. Why punish the dogs so?

Trained assistance dogs are another matter. If a visually impaired person needs their dog, that's good enough for me.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 12:01 PM

My remarks were not aimed at trained assistance dogs. I see reasons for bringing them to festivals of course.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,JHW in the library
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 12:05 PM

What about those events that say BYOD ?

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Scooby Doo
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 12:07 PM

It was ahot morning at Sidmouth and in those days the newletters were free i think it was 1988.Toby and Alans children took the letters around the tent when a dog came out and bit his are very badly.I was pregnant at the time and by the time we realised it was Toby and he was sorted out i went into having a miscarriage with the shock and i lost the baby in Exeter hospital.Many mudcatters here will remember that day.So i think dogs should be kept on leads at all times or not allowed at festivals.


Scooby

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 12:21 PM

I sounds like the evidence is stacking up against dogs - as somebody put it - why would somebody take a dog to a folk festival anyway? I would point out again the problem of the level of First Aid - is it up to heart attacks and multiple fractures?

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Wolfhound person
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 12:22 PM

If a child was bitten by a dog at a festival:

1) Where was the dog's owner and doing what?
2) what was the child doing? either to the dog, or just generally(where were its parents, too!)

Children need training at festivals just as much as dogs, and also about dogs generally. One unfortunate habit is that small children will stare straight into a dog's eyes, and this is a threat in dog language. Both species need to learn how to cope with this if they're going to cohabit.

I'm not condoning a loose/uncontrolled dog situation, that was obviously the primary problem. The owner should at least have been told not to bring it again, or maybe even be removed and banned.

I took small children (5 & 6 the first time) to Cambridge Folk Festival amongst others, where they learnt (fast) how to behave sensibly in a crowd of potentially drunken adults (the Pogues barmy army on one occasion), how to find a parent or friend quickly at need, and how not to attract attention to themselves, before they were set loose. Once trained (about an hour) they greatly enjoyed the freedom of a closed site festival.

I now have two (very) large dogs who would not be welcome in a small festival, so they go to a dog hotel if necessary. I would still like children to meet them in a controlled situation because they are friendly creatures and I think dogs are good for children.

I appreciate that not everyone likes to have 50kg of dog put its paws on their shoulders and lick their face, exposing a set of teeth which do credit to a small shark, so I try and train them to only do it to us.

Paws (trying to type with a wolfhound peering over one shoulder)

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,Sandra
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 12:29 PM

Our first aiders are paramedics

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: oggie
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 12:34 PM

I have two dogs and would not dream of taking them to a festival. In fact it hadn't occurred to me that I might take them!

Why? It's a strange and noisy enviroment which totally disrupts ant routine your dog may have and may lead to behaviours it wouldn't usually exhibit. You have to be responsive to your dog so if it gets unsettled you must sort it first whether or not it's an artist you really want to see (and why go to a festival if not to see artist or play or dance as you want). Tents and cars get way to hot (even in a rainy summer) for dogs so you are tied to you dog aall the time. There are issues over hygiene etc even for well behaved dogs and owners.

So any festival I go to (whether or not I'm working it) the dogs go to kennels.

Steve

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Peace
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 12:34 PM

I was bitten once on the knee by a dog in Montreal many years ago. He was on a leash but the lead was long enough that he could get to the sidewalk where I was walking. I didn't know it was there until it bit my leg. Kinda all done in three or four seconds. I killed it by putting my arms around its neck and cutting off its air. I may have broken its throat or neck because it was dead in under what seemed like two minutes. It was a mutt (50 pounds or so) with an attitude. He just happened to meet a human with an attitude.

I am a dog lover although no longer a dog owner. Sorry, but I lived on reserves and in settlements where dogs either behave or cease to exist. As much as I love the creatures, I have no sympathy for any animal that gratuitously attacks people. Period.

As for festivals, I don't think the dogs are there for the music. So, why cart Rover along? Working dogs are another matter entirely.

That's all I have to say about it.

PS I've lived around dogs for most of my life.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Acorn4
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 12:35 PM

I think the smaller dogs are often worse - the type which can be grouped under the heading RATWEILERS.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: bobad
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 12:42 PM

Oh god how I miss the carefree, free spirited, fun loving atmosphere of festivals during the sixties. People were less uptight and this spirit seemed to infuse every one, people, kids, dogs and the birds in the sky all frolicking freely together and enjoying each other and the music in total abandon. Growing old can be confining.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Banjiman
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 12:46 PM

Tough one.

We have a big, daft, overly friendly lab, we have occaisionally taken him to outdoor folk events.....but only where we have gone for the day never where we have gone to a full festival. He has enjoyed himself immensely! He's never bitten anyone but he does lick a lot.

However, I don't think we would take him for a full weekend, especially if we were playing. It would not be fair on other people to take him into marquees or other venues for long periods..... and I wouldn't want to leave him in the tent or car for long periods if it was warm.

We also have 2 small children..... it is much harder to find someone to look after them than the dog (and they won't stay shut in the tent so we end up taking them into events to disturb others)!

Seriously, they would always ask before approaching a dog they did not know.

Other dogs (and children!) have different temperaments.....if all dog owners were resposible I would leave it to them to decide if they want to take their dogs...... but not all dog owners are responsible so I guess a festival has to be prepared to police their rules and be prepared to clear up any doggy mess.

Paul

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Scooby Doo
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 12:46 PM

The dog that bit my son came out from under the tent while walking past.He was well looked after by a fourteen year old lad.He was just like anyone else walking past a closed tent,it could have happened to anybody but it was my son.Who now has a very nasty scar on his left arm.


Scooby

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,dog owner
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 01:02 PM

I took my dog to Towersey, I won't again.
I am (I hope) a responsible dog owner, I wouldn't dream of taking my dog into a concert, or even the beer tent. He was on a lead all weekend, including when sleeping and on a stake out so he couldn't come out of our tent area. I exercised him several times a day away from the festival site. But he didn't enjoy it, and a lot was to do with other dog owners, dogs off lead running into our camping area.
I will be sorry if dogs are banned, mainly for some folk I see year after year with happy well controlled dogs, but it is a family festival.
Again, a small minority of dog owners spoiling it for the majority. Unthinkable not to pick up dog mess, and unexcusable to let a dog off a lead in such a situation.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: open mike
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 01:06 PM

i don't think i have ever been to a festival that allowed dogs.
this must be a british situation, as in the u.s. we have dog-free
events. i do believe i saw one service dog at the festival last
weekend. and horses...security patrol horses and trail ride horses.

there was a bad incident last week elsewhere where a police horse
trampled a guy to death because it got spooked by a plastic bag
flying into its face.

Dogs? Cats? leave them home or in the kennel.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 01:08 PM

Dogs at festivals are fine if they are cooked slowly with plenty of curry sauce,A Hot Dog.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Mr Red
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 01:09 PM

I can personally take em or leave em. But I don't have the last word sonce Knorra arrived. Banning them saves hassle and possible litigation and not to mention the poop. Not everyone scoops. Bigger the crowd, the more the potential for mess. What the hell, Ban em.

Or you could revive a Victorian occupation, "Pure Finding". Volunteer stewards might be a problem.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: kendall
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 01:10 PM

Here in Maine we have a state leash law. Idiot owners can be fined for allowing dogs to run at large.Instead of talking to the owner, you just call a cop.
There is a huge Bluegrass festival here and they ban dogs, bicycles and motorcycles.

I don't understand why the idiot owner doesn't see that no one wants to step in his/her dogs poop, then track it into his 1/2 million dollar motor home.It's like their head is nothing more than a knot to keep their backbone from unraveling.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: MaineDog
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 01:15 PM

I don't take my other half to festivals. Not that he does any harm, but he gets lonely if I am out of sight and then he barks like crazy. So I take him to a kennel where everybody barks all the time. When he gets home he enjoys the quiet.
MD

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 01:17 PM

I took my dog to a festival for the first time last weekend. I was only there for the day - any longer festivals I attended this summer, I made alternative arrangements for her.

It was all outdoors, so no need to go inside marquees for concerts. From the general response of people there (I never got further than about 5 feet before someone came up to ask about her, or stroke her), a lot of people seem to like dogs at festivals. She's quite small, so fairly unobtrusive. There were some excessively "friendly" children wanting to pull her ears and tail a lot, and a few over-refreshed individuals who wanted to lavish upon her all their booze-fuelled affection. But she stood it all with great dignity.

I think there are good, responsible dog owners just like there are good, responsible parents. Then there are people who are not really in control of their dog/child, and allow them to become a public nuisance. And usually they don't really care.

It's a pity when the former are punished for the irresponsible attitude of the latter. But sometimes, I admit, it's necessary.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 01:35 PM

I am a dog owner, and a dog lover.{Don't go there}
Because I love my dog, I would NEVER take her to a folk festival.
There is a case for SOME dog free festivals, and there is also a case for SOME child free festivals.

JM

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 01:37 PM

I am an absolute dog fanatic. I love the critter all of them. But in truth I don't want them at a festival. It is not the dogs. It is the owners, they don't lease like stated. They don't clean up their land mines. And the barking when the performer as playing is rude. My kids are all adults. When my 30 year old was 4 I went to a festival and took her along - she picked up a doggie pile and said, daddy look doggie poo

nope keep em home

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,Jack Campin at work
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 01:39 PM

How about this cat then?

http://loanhead.gc.googlepages.com/fleetwoodstravels

The only dogs I've met at festivals have been no problem, but then I don't go to big festivals. I once watched a singer at Muchty attempting a ballad singing competition having brought her two small dogs with her. They followed her up on stage, sat up and begged, and rolled over around her feet while she was singing. She didn't win but deserved extra credit for managing to finish at all while they were stealing the show.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: bfdk
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 01:47 PM

"I think there are good, responsible dog owners just like there are good, responsible parents. Then there are people who are not really in control of their dog/child, and allow them to become a public nuisance. And usually they don't really care."

Spot on, Joanie.

For my part I wouldn't dream of bringing my dachshund along to a festival, for *his* sake, not for the sake of others. This despite my dog being a seasoned traveller who's roamed with me through Denmark and other countries for shows and working trials in his younger days, stayed in hotels without being a nuisance and spent hours on end on trains, boats and once even on planes.

Here in Denmark festivals usually include lots of people drinking beer from glass bottles, and when the booze enters, so exits whatever brains they may once have had and they just drop their bottles where they empty them. I don't want to have to pay to have my dog's paws patched up by a vet after stepping on that.. There are other reasons, too, but that's the main reason.

I'm lucky to have two alternative homes for my dog, so when I go gallivanting, he goes visiting. And when I get home we've both of us had a nice break, his a quiet one, mine less so.

That said, I don't mind in the least that there are (well behaved) dogs present at festivals, and the glass bottle problem seems to be more or less non-existent in Britain from what I've seen.

Best wishes,

Bente

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Ernest
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 01:56 PM

I am definitely against banning "Old Blue" and "Master McGrath" from festivals...they are FOLK!!!!!!!!!!!!

;0)
Ernest (whose dogs wouldn`t have liked to go to festivals)

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Zen
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 02:28 PM

Yes Jack... I sat next to Fleetwood at Glenfarg this year... he was no problem!

As many have said I think the problem is not so much with dogs but with irresponsible owners.

Zen

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Howard Jones
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 02:50 PM

Are we forgetting the folk world's biggest star - the late lamented Mrs Ackroyd?

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Scooby Doo
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 02:57 PM

But he was on stage!!!!!!!.
scooby

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 03:01 PM

Zen,

"As many have said I think the problem is not so much with dogs but with irresponsible owners."

Unfortunately it is the dog that bites, not the owner, at least in most cases

L in C

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 03:27 PM

We had two dogs until a few weeks ago.
One very freindly and one a very good guard dog.
We took them to several music events and knowing them and their shortcomings managed them accordingly.
Freindly dog on lead allowed limited contact with people.
Guard dog on lead not allowed contact.
Its the owners who need to take responsibility and leave them home if they are not prepared to make the effort required to control them properly.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: olddude
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 03:38 PM

The guest without the name was me. Sorry Joe, lost me cookies

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 03:57 PM

No-one has yet given me a good reason why a dog should be at a festival.

When as some people say, owners should be made responsible for their dogs at festivals, what are you going to do if they aren't?

Throw the owner and their dog off the site? Bit late if the irresponsible owner's dog has bitten someone.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: lady penelope
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 04:21 PM

It really is tricky.

I think in the end the festival organisers have to decide how much they are going to police dogs and their owners. If they do not wish to risk legal action against them for such incidents as bites etc then they will end up banning dogs. But I think if they do allow dogs, maybe they should make it very clear when people are buying tickets, that if they do not control their dogs then they are out of the festival, no arguments.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Alan Day
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 05:55 PM

I have five English Setters one of the friendliest dogs available, but I would not dream of taking any of them to a Festival.As already stated the conditions for dogs being left or taken into tents or kept in cars are not suitable.In general the music hurts their ears.Some breeds of dogs their car and tent becomes their territory so they guard it.A little child crawling into a tent with a dog in it is in danger.
I agree that some dog owners do not act in a responsible manner and properly clean up after their dogs.I think most of us have been to concerts where a dog has been left outside chained up and barking for it's owner.Many a good performance or live recording has been spoiled by a dog barking.Finally think about the poor dog ,where most of the audience is interested in the stage performance, many a poor dog has been tripped over. Finally a dog that is wonderful with humans can be a killer towards other dogs and many a dog fight is the result,with people being bitten trying to separate them.My thoughts on this subject is leave them at home or put them into a kennel.
Al

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 06:30 PM

I think some of the attitudes displayed on this thread are rather dog in the manger.
why not charge the owners admission for their dogs.,providing they are English dogs.
we dont want foreign dogs,polluting the purity of our English folk festivals.
while I dont like to be dogmatic,the charging of owners for their dogs,will probably have the desired effect.
but on the other hand where would Les Barker have been wthout MrsAckroyd,up Barking creek without a paddle.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: kendall
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 07:29 PM

Some people, usually older people, treat their dogs like babies. They carry them around and wont go anywhere without them. Silly, and bordering on pathetic.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,lefthanded guitar
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 07:42 PM

I agree. It may be a minority of dog owners who let their animals run amok, but there is no place for dogs at a folk music festival.Besides the danger, there is the mess, and just general disarray . I also suspect that the dog who bit that poor child was not a first time biter.
Let dogs go to dog festivals but ban them from music arenas.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Cap't Bob
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 08:00 PM

Dogs are not allowed at any of the festivals in our neck of the woods (Northern Michigan). Most likely due to liability concerns.

Due to the failing economy our daughters have moved back into the house so now we have someone to stay at home and take care of our 3 dogs and 3 cats. Its an ill wind that blows no good...

Cap't Bob

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Beer
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 09:06 PM

We didn't specify "No Dogs" at this year's festival. We posted on the web and posters "NO PETS".
Bobad has a dog that I would welcome at any festival, yet my brother has a little cute dog that children run up to and because of it's temperament would not hesitate to bite. That is the problem. The owners of the property that the festival was held have two humongous dogs which they had put away for the festival. Both are very gentle and love children. However they insisted at the board meeting that no dog be allow. Most board members also agreed. As someone mentioned there is a liability concern even though insurance can cover this. But who wants to have this as a problem. Then there are folks who are afraid of dogs period.
Beer (adrien)

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Greg B
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 10:04 PM

Oh come ON!

To generalize that dogs ought to be banned because a kid got
his arm bit and is now scarred (as if that isn't a badge of
courage forever) is just ridiculous.

At the Mystic Sea Music Festival, a couple brought their brace
of two pit bulls (the USA's mythical "devil dog") to the
concerts each year.

Like most of these banned-in-Dade-county breed, these two were
complete love-magnets and their affections contributed not in
the least to my own experience of the event.

Then again, I know how to properly approach a dog; something
parents ought to teach their children.

They were properly restrained by harness-collars; they could
have bitten; I knew the risk I took when I approached them,
properly and passively.

On the other hand, I've been bitten more severely by my 16-pound
orange Maine coon-cat tabby cross. And by the 850-pound California
sea-lion whose part-time trainer I was. (THAT scar, alas, has faded
to the point of non-existence and certainly isn't braggable.)

Frankly, the emotional scars I've received at the hands of humans
are far deeper and long-lasting than the many I've received from
the animal kingdom.

Those latter scars, however, have on balance been healed in far
greater measure than the depth of the physical scars by the self-
same animals who've occasionally sunk their teeth into me.

Not to make light of it--- babies are on occasion killed by
canines. But the odd dog-bite pales in comparison to the richness
that the genus gives to us by their very presence. Owners need to
make sure that there is no more than the occasional unfortunate
inconvenience.

We need the beasties.

Keep them around.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: melodeonboy
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 02:44 AM

I've never taken a dog to a festival myself, but I'm quite happy for them to be at festivals in the same way I'm quite happy to see them in pubs. It seems that our new squeaky-clean, no-risk, sanitised society is gradually excluding them from both.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 03:07 AM

I can't comment for other festivals, but if anyone who went to Towersey bothered to read their ticket info - it states quite clearly that dogs are welcome as long as they are kept on a lead and cleared up after. As far as I'm aware, this is the first year we've reported any major trouble with dogs - and I do know that there were a couple of 'village' dogs roaming around without restraints or owners.

It is up to the venue managers to state whether dogs are allowed in, and that includes the food vendors.

As for the threatening behaviour of dogs - what does a dog do when it's not happy? It growls and snarls. When it growls, it shows its teeth. Walking up to a strange dog and smiling broadly at it, gives the dog the impression that you're a big strange animal growling at it and therefore a threat. I taught Limpit not to smile at strange dogs, because I just could not stop her going up to every size canine and patting it. I taught her to be gentle, to let it sniff her and not to show her teeth. It isn't just eye contact - that's more to do with a dominance/Alpha Dog thing - when either party drops its gaze, it's accepting the other is the dominant Alpha.

I like to see dogs at festivals, as I like to see children.... but as stated above several times, both dog and child are the responsibility of the owner/parent and both must be properly trained and kept under control.

(For those who remember, we had Limpit on a dog lead when she was a toddler - it saved a lot of chasing and we could haul her out of harm's way or stake her out in a safe place whilst we pitched tents or sat at the bar... I'd recommend one to any parent!)

LTS

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Zen
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 03:28 AM

L in C,

Why are you baring your teeth specifically at me as I have have simply reiterated an obvious point about owners made by many others?

Zen

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 03:42 AM

"No-one has yet given me a good reason why a dog should be at a festival.

When as some people say, owners should be made responsible for their dogs at festivals, what are you going to do if they aren't?"


Uncle Dave, replace the word "dog" with "kids"...what's the difference? There's no reason why either "should" be at a festival, and for many people, their dogs are part of their family.

There may have been a few growls and barks during concerts this year at Towersey, but there was also a bawling baby in the Roy Bailey concert I attended, whose parents didn't have the courtesy to take it out of the marquee. I've sat next to fractious toddlers in late evening concerts in the past, who wriggled and tantrumed and chattered because they were bored, but their parents didn't want to miss the concert and so were happy to let their children ruin the gig for those around them.

At the end of the day, it's all about courtesy, and having basic respect for the people around you. If you look after your pets and your children, making sure that they have adequate food and drink, stuff to occupy them if they get bored, aren't too hot in the sun, remove them if they become disruptive and clean up after their messes, there really shouldn't be problems. It's when people bring their children or pets into an environment and switch off, preferring to focus on their own enjoyment and not worrying about how the pet/child is behaving, that you end up with trouble.

I have to admit, I found it quite distracting to have my dog with me at the festival last weekend, because I was worrying about her all the time, and would probably avoid bringing her in future. But each to their own, as long as people behave responsibly.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 04:59 AM

I will try and be serious.
Ruth and GreG B,heave it about right.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 05:40 AM

Zen,
I wasn't responding to you in isolation. I guess it looks that way because one thread follows another, when in fact lots and lots of people contribute to the discussion.

A problem with all long threads is that after a while people tend not to read the thread from the start and points start to be endlessly repeated.

I have read all this from the start and the case seems for banning dogs seems very strong:

1. Dogs sometimes, though rarely, bite people
2. Dogs excrete daily and it is not always cleaned up effectively
3. Dogs bark a bit and spoil some performances, though not much
4. Although it's hard to tell, dogs don't get much from festivals
5. According to many dog owners and lovers above, dogs are at least ill at ease in the festival environment
6. I think it is unreasonable to expect festival organisers to "police" dogs.
7. Blaming children for not knowing how to approach dogs is stupid

I recognise the pleasure dog owners get. I have delivered political leaflets 4 or 5 times a year for nearly 40 years. I never go into gardens were I suspect their may be a dog. Although most dogs are harmless I cannot tell which is which and neither can children.

The evidence presented above leads me to think all festivals should ban dogs.

On a not unrelated theme I am not convinced that the level of "First Aid" at most festivals is adequate. Sooner or later somebody will have serious heart trouble, a major wound, broken bones or breathing difficulty, brought on or rendered more difficult because of the nature of the venue.

Was Woodstock remembered as the festival at which more people were born than died?

L in C

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Mick Woods
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 05:57 AM

"Uncle Dave, replace the word "dog" with "kids"...what's the difference?"

?

What is the difference between a young human and a dog!

If you don't know that, I hope you don't actually have or intend on having any children or wven be allowed near them!!!

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 06:03 AM

"7. Blaming children for not knowing how to approach dogs is stupid"

You're right - but you can blame their parents.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 06:04 AM

Let me get my retaliation in first:

People do most of the things I have listed above, but festivals are organised by people for people. Some of us are old and some young but in varying degrees we all enjoy, and often love, the music we hear and the company of fellow festival goers.

That's it really

L in C

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 06:06 AM

"What is the difference between a young human and a dog!"

Nicely taken out of context, Mick Woods! I think it's pretty clear that I meant that there are arguments against having either at festivals, but using a bit of common sense, both can be easily accommodated.

FWIW, my daughter is 14. And she's never been bitten by a dog.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,baz parkes
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 06:06 AM

Good points here.

I think Shrewsbury is one of the most "dog friendly" festival sites there is.   Plenty of room for walking, off site walking included.

I took our old dog this year...I have a large campervan, and she's quite happy in it. She particularly liked being camped near the midden left over from several agricultural shows:-))

I was surprised on getting round to reading the program, to see that "well behaved" dogs were welcome in venues. I wouldn't dream of taking either of ours in, but I suppose one person's well behaved is anothers pain in the bum. Again it's down to owners. I'd be unhappy to see a ban.

BTW great job again Alan, Sandra et al

Baz

Oh, what about the man with a parrot in a portable cage at Sidmouth,or the man with a ferret on a lead at Dartmoor?

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 06:07 AM

Maybe Ruth, but my leafleting experience is that I cannot tell a sensible dog from the others and I don't think it is actually possible to teach such a skill to children or adults with enough reliability.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 06:13 AM

The only thing i would say, Les, is that there's a big difference between how a dog behaves in its own territory (which it will try to defend - even against friendly leafleters!) and how they behave in neutral territory.

If a parent is really concerned, they should teach their child not to approach ANY strange dog. And responsible dog owners should have their dogs on leads in public places, and muzzled if there is any risk of biting (either other dogs or people).

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 06:13 AM

Now you mention it, I saw a woman with a ferret at Shrewsbury. Children do find them fascinating, because they are. My farther kept ferrets and I know they bite. A couple next to us on a campsite in Austria had a cat on a lead all day. I guess the cat would have escaped if they had not. Do these people need help?

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 06:14 AM

Our lurcher Gwyn has been to several festivals (including several Towerseys and Sidmouths).

Why do we bring her? Simply because she is far happier with us on a festival site than she is in kennels. No dog wears its heart on its sleeve more than a lurcher, and she shows every sign of thoroughly enjoying herself. We wouldn't bring her if she didn't. She is, though, an experienced border morris dog, and so is very comfortable in new situations and in travelling around with music and general merriment going on around her.

It ain't rocket science, and I'm not saying we're perfect or holier-than-thou: but we do take the responsibility (to other people and to her) seriously. Nobody else should ever have their enjoyment of the event impinged upon by the fact that we have Gwyn with us.
We keep her on the lead whenever around the site and wouldn't dream of letting her run around on-site off the lead, keep her well-exercised away from the site, avoid crowded and food areas, keep a weather eye out for children, nervous-looking adults, and other dogs, keep her off the seats, and make sure we clear up after her.

Nobody has ever complained to us about her or about her presence, and we would take the complaint seriously if anyone did. The biggest problem we have ever had was in getting across the Towersey site quickly when late for a concert, as far too many people (including lots of stewards!) wanted to stop us to say hello to her ...

It's about respecting other people, taking account of the fact that not everyone is comfortable around dogs, and just being sensible.
In fact it's what we do every day as (hopefully) responsible dog owners.

I would suspect that the dogs, and dog-owners, which cause problems at festivals are the dogs and dog-owners which cause problems the rest of the year round!

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 06:15 AM

"Oh, what about the man with a parrot in a portable cage at Sidmouth"

I thought I'd dreamed that...

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 06:24 AM

Fair enough Ruth I guess it is a case of what are the chances of a bite, what are the consequences and what does the dog actually get from being at a festival.

Sorry I am doing what I complained about - going round and round in circles.

Finally I want to confess before I get shopped: I dog appeared at a Singaround that I "orgainise". It ran in and out of our Snug, jumped on people and ran back to it's owner in the bar. When Sean struck up with the 3 stringed fiddle and Bob with the Smallpipes the dog reappeared, clearly attracted by the high pitch. Only when it peed just missing Alan did I go to find the owner.

I thought we all found this very funny, which in a way it was but it was more than a bit pit bullish with a jeweled collar and on reflection I should have stopped it straight away.

I think that is at the heart of the problem, dogs can be fascinating, lovable and harmless and dangerous and I, and most other people, cannot tell which is which.

I think they have to go into the festival 101.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,dog owner
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 06:48 AM

if anyone is seriously interested, this is the best thing around for teaching children how to be safe around dogs.

http://www2.the-kennel-club.org.uk/sashi_code/

obviously this does not excuse dog owners from behaving vigilantly and responsibly.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,Meggly
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 07:18 AM

When I first saw this thread I was mildly surprised at the suggestion which seemed to me to be an over-reaction to one incident at one festival out of 10-odd previously-without-incident festivals at Shrewsbury/Brigenorth. But I thought, well, maybe the question needs to be asked and then put to bed.

But I'm becoming increasingly alarmed at the number of people coming down on the side of banning dogs at the festival.

I agree, dogs can be dangerous; owners have a responsibility to watch their dogs, clean up after them and guard against well-wishers who may be acting in a way that will antagonise the dog and cause an incident. Some people don't do this; there should be a mechanism for 'punishing' these people. But to ban dogs completely? Dogs and man have existed side by side for much of our development as modern man; they are part of our psychology, whether you own one or not. And if there is no other reason for why dogs should be allowed at festivals then surely it is this.

My second problem is that everything seems to be getting banned. My friend's daughter's school has banned the javelin from its sports days in case of injury. What happened to personal responsibility and taking a few risks? Banning dogs/javelins means that kids have one less opportunity to learn that dog/javelins might look benign, but need to be handled carefully. Are we to wrap our kids up in so much cotton wool that they have no idea how to survive in the world at large?

Sod it why take them to a real folk festival with mud and dogs and drunk people getting in your way whilst trying to watch the acts; where they could get hurt. I've got an idea! Virtual Shrewsbury Folk Festival! Right, video a bunch of folkie artistes and stream them over the web for the bank-holiday weekend. We could all wrap our selves up in our duvets and we wouldn't have to get wet or interact with anyone nasty at all.

I would not stop going to Shrewsbury if they banned dogs, but it would seriously affect my enjoyment of the festival; my favourite pastime other than all the other pastimes is dog spotting.

Meg (not a dog owner by the way).

P.S. Are you going to ban the Ferrets too? (They're cute, but I would certainly remind any child of mine not to poke their fingers anywhere near the mouth end; and I would certainly be saying "I told you so" if they did get bitten.) And, tent pegs? Vicious those. I fell over a number of guy ropes that weekend; admittedly they were all on my own tent. Should I ban my tent? Hmmm…

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 09:05 AM

i think we should ban banning things.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Mick Woods
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 09:07 AM

"my daughter is 14. And she's never been bitten by a dog"

My grandson is 2 and has never been molested by a paedophile!

That makes paedos OK - accoring to RA's logic!

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 09:11 AM

The difference between dogs and children Ruth?

I suspect you cannot be serious - but I have been bitten twice by dogs and my daughter had to have rabies injections after a dog bite at a festival, (an experience that neither she nor I have ever forgotten). She was a four year-old playing. That was her reward.

I haven't been bitten by a child nor as far as I am aware has anyone anywhere had to have anti-rabies injections after playing near children.

I have been to numerous festivals where children have complained, cried, whinged and moaned. Their parents have taken them out, soothed them etc. They rarely disturb people for long (the reason being they are also disturbing their parents). Dog owners often seem immune to their dogs' behaviour.

Children starting at an early age can get a lot out of a festival - from the often superb kids events to learning to listen at concerts and perhaps even a love of folk music.

Dogs get......?

Most people would have sympathy with a crying child, in my experience they have a lot less sympathy with a barking dog.

I know adults can be badly behaved at festivals especially late at night, at least I can go out and reason with them. (Or sometimes them with me).

It is no good saying allow them on and ban the owners if they misbehave. By then the damage has been done. And I can imagine the scene "He wont do it again honestly and we have paid £xxx for tickets, surely we can stay plead plead plead....."

To me it is simple - if you happen to be a dog owner and there is a festival you want to go to - then you have a choice of leaving the dog with someone else or in kennels, or if you are so attached you can't do that, then stay at home with them. The dog was your choice not the other way around.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 09:40 AM

The vast majority of dogs are well-behaved, social creatures who probably enjoy being outdoors and getting all the attention they receive at festivals. It's a shame that a minority of irresponsible owners ruin it for the majority.

I have sympathy with a crying child - up to a point. If the parents don't deal with the situation, and expect everyone else's indulgence while they don't remove their child from the concert, my sympathy evaporates pretty quickly. And then there were the kids running around blowing loud whistles at an outdoor Bellowhead gig a few years ago...when I asked the parents to get them to stop, the response was, "Well, they're children. What do you expect?" Funnily enough, I expect to be able to listen to the music at a music festival.

Dogs, children and grown-ups happily share lots of other public spaces. It seems that a bit more consideration on the part of owners and parents could mean everyone can happily share festivals as well.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Maryrrf
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 09:52 AM

Around here there seem to be two types of festivals - those where dogs are welcomed and made part of the festival and those where they are banned. At the 'dog' festivals people pay admission for the dogs and it goes to a local charity. They have to be on a lead, and must show current rabies certificate in order to be admitted. Part of the fun of going to the festival is seeing the various dogs strutting around with their owners, most of them obviously enjoying themselves. There's even a "blessing of the animals" at the end of the festival. The venues are all outdoors (in open tents) and I've never heard of any problems. Of course, everybody who goes knows there will be dogs, and lots of them. I can see the point about potential problems - but mostly I think it boils down to owners taking responsibility, NOT bringing an animal whose temperment is unsuited to a public event, and keeping control of the dog at all times. Also cleaning up messes of course.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,Farmer Giles
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 09:57 AM

Should dogs be encouraged to attend church with their owners?

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,Meggly
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 10:10 AM

Sorry, but parents can be as singularly self-indulgent with their children as can dog owners with their pooches.

"Ahhh, isn't our little Jocasta sweet jumping about on that seat; it must be so wonderful for you all sitting behind her to see the lovely natural way she moves with the music".

Dogs and children out of the venue as soon as they start being annoying; otherwise let's all have a tolerant, free & welcoming festival.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 10:16 AM

Round and round we go.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: bobad
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 10:26 AM

"Should dogs be encouraged to attend church with their owners?"   

I think I could turn and live with animals, they are so placid and self-contain'd;
    I stand and look at them long and long.

    They do not sweat and whine about their condition;
    They do not lie awake in the dark and weep for their sins;
    They do not make me sick discussing their duty to God;
    Not one is dissatisfied—not one is demented with the mania of owning things;
    Not one kneels to another, nor to his kind that lived thousands of years ago;
    Not one is respectable or industrious over the whole earth.

Walt Whitman   
[Leaves of Grass 32, ll.682-689]

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 01:04 PM

Sorry, but parents can be as singularly self-indulgent with their children

I certainly hope so - I have never met a parent that wasn't.

"Ahhh, isn't our little Jocasta sweet jumping about on that seat; it must be so wonderful for you all sitting behind her to see the lovely natural way she moves with the music"

I love the way kids move in time with music.

Dogs and children out of the venue as soon as they start being annoying; otherwise let's all have a tolerant, free & welcoming festival.

Dogs not allowed into a venue under any circumstances. Why on earth would you want to bring a dog into a venue for goodness sake? To listen to the music? Or because you can't leave it in accommodation? If you can't care for it in accommodation then don't bring it.

Children talked to lovingly, soothingly and caringly if they are a nuisance.

I cannot remember an occasion when I had a problem with a child at a folk festival. But if I did have one I would probably address the child.

Let me know when you have had a succesful conversation with a dog.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: lady penelope
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 01:06 PM

In the UK we are in the fortunate position of (currently) not having a rabies problem. Which means even if someone is bitten by a dog they generally don't have to go through the rather painful experience of rabies injections. So for us, a dog bite (depending on actual tissue damage) is not necessarily the scary thing it can be in other countries.

That aside, I don't think a ban is necessary, but is does depend on the organisers willingness/ability to police these things.

My personal reasoning is that you get dogs in most public places, festivals meerly concentrate their numbers a bit. It's common sense to teach your children not to pat strange dogs without asking the owner and teaching them basic things like not grinning (as Liz said). But it's also common sense that you train your dog to a minimum standard. It gives the dog security in knowing who's in charge in any situation, for a start. Unfortunately there are those (as with children) who seem neither capable or bothered enough to do this.

I think those people should be addressed. If it is made clear by the organisers, at point of ticket purchase, that highly anitsocial or violent behaviour is not brooked and the offenders (and keepers by default) will be invited to leave the festival, then I don't see the problem. If organisers stick to the policy, maybe those who think of their dogs (or kids for that matter) as accessories rather than responsibilities will either leave the dogs at home or not come at all.

Leaving the rest of us (well cared for dogs and kids too) to enjoy ourselves.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 01:12 PM

Dave,I have a collie, I have many successful conversations with him.when I say sit,he sits,when I say, come this way,he does.
when I say,stay, he stays.
he also understands left and right.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 01:16 PM

Cap'n

And do your children do the same when you tell them?

Neither of mine have taken a blind bit of notice of me since they were sixteen!!

:-)

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Thompson
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 01:18 PM

Two suggestions: charge admission for dogs, as already suggested by Captain Birdseye, and have proper kennels available so dogs can be left in a 'creche' and don't have to be out among strangers all the time.

Loud music is incredibly painful to dogs' ears, though, and crowds are freaky for dogs. I wouldn't bring my dog to a festival.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: nutty
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 01:21 PM

What's his response Dick when you ask what he thinks of the state of the Nation.
Which politician he vwould vote for?

What is his opinion of folk music today

Or similar stimulating conversations.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 01:35 PM

no, my dog,is the only one who obeys me.
my dog normally howls at my partners accordion,but not my English concertina,unless I play how much is that doggy in the window.
My dog believes rather like Karl Marx,that one must eat before one can think,so he doesnt cogitate on definitions of ballads,and such squit.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 02:20 PM

where is lead fingers

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 02:20 PM

ioo

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Wolfhound person
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 05:06 PM

"And do your children do the same when you tell them?

Mine did the human equivalent, particularly when at festivals. Or else.....
They were told that there were situations where it was important they did as they were told first, and asked questions afterwards.
They did, and as a result were given a lot more freedom than some.They knew there were limits.They've grown into responsible adults.
Yes, it is broadly the same as training dogs.

"Neither of mine have taken a blind bit of notice of me since they were sixteen!!"

Quite. Mine always have taken notice, and appear to be bringing up their own offspring by the same methods, tho' it's a bit early for results yet.

Who was it said "The more people I meet, the more I love my dog?"

Paws

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Peace
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 05:19 PM

I looked for the origin of that quote, Paws, and so far the originator is "Unknown". FYI

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: skipy
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 05:32 PM

Well, perhaps dog owners are the next target, here in Grove they are planning on banning dogs from the "playing fields" the festival camps on the "playing fields" I am 100%+ sure that the festival has never left any dog poo behind because our dog lovers are sensible people.
However did any dog owners fight for us smokers? I think not, so will I fight for the rights of the dog owners, I think not. & so they come for all of us!
Skipy

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 10:12 AM

Ruth Archer

replace the word "dog" with "kids"...what's the difference?

Well, here's Peace's solution for an annoying dog. I don't think you could get away with that with a child.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Mrs Scarecrow
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 10:24 AM

I thoroughly enjoyed meeting other people's dogs at Shrewsbury folk festival and got a great deal of pleasure from the simple fact that they were there. I do not have a dog of my own as I dont have a suitable life style or accommodation. All the dogs I met were very well behaved and all the owners I saw cleaned up and otherwise behaved responsibly. What a great shame that a few may spoil it for what seemed to me to be the majority and the no sayers get another chance to reduce our life experiences

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 12:22 PM

Anyone who fondly thinks that picking up dog-poo means there is no dog-poo left is seriously deluded. Dogs do not produce shite pre-packed in hygienic containers, nor can it be completely removed from grass.   A nasty smear will remain which is just as attractive to flies as the intact turd and even more of a threat to children who can't see where it used to be. Arguably, it's better to just leave the turd where it is so that at least we can see where the contamination lies. Dogs are a curse and so are most of their owners, the vast majority of whom think that "controlling" their wretched animals consists of shouting at them from 200 yards away as loudly as possible. The idea that masses of people at festivals, where hygiene is already an important issue, are just dandy mixing it with hordes of filthy dogs is, frankly, laughable. So there.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 12:22 PM

And the last time I looked into it, yes, I discovered that they piss all over the place too. Lovely jubbly!

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: melodeonboy
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 12:27 PM

"Dogs are a curse and so are most of their owners, the vast majority of whom think that "controlling" their wretched animals consists of shouting at them from 200 yards away as loudly as possible."

Mmm... I think someone's a little bit out of touch!

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Acorn4
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 12:43 PM

Steve Shaw,

Thankyou for sharing that with us - was just eating a sandwich at the time!

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 12:50 PM

Is that the same Steve Shaw who recently wrote on another (unrelated) thread:

"Some of you absolutists need to get off your high horses. You pontificate in generalities from the very narrow position of your own circumstances or prejudices."

Surely not.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Bee
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 12:51 PM

Festivals here are usually in rural areas. Vast numbers of the people who attend are from other parts of the province and other provinces, are travelling in RVs, and they are usually including the festivals in their vacations. They travel with their dogs.

Dogs on leads, not staked out with owners away, and not in venues is the usual rule at these festivals, and I've never witnessed a problem yet. People routinely pick up after their dogs, as it would be hard not to with so many people watching - Nova Scotians are not shy about telling people to do the right thing on such issues.

One festival, which I will not name since I'm about to call the organizers anal, self-important, musically tone-deaf snobs, tried a no-dog policy for a year. The Rv-ers stayed away in droves, revenues dropped like a stone, and they reversed the policy thereafter.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 02:05 PM

Well, Ruth Archer (I have to use your surname as I'm in Grumblin' Joe Grundy mode, and he always calls everyone by both their names, perhaps you would care to apprise me of the connection between what I said in some previous post and what I said today.   Let's face it, Ruth Archer. You don't care for me ~and~ you probably have a cur or two.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,dog owner
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 02:48 PM

Sorry to be picky here Steve Shaw, but I have also trained my dog to urinate on command and at Towersey, I frequently took him to a piece of grass totally unused by people, away from any footpaths for him to relieve himself.
I'm sorry, but I do control my dog. And my children.
And I'm not taking my dog for my own reasons. I enjoy seeing other people's well behaved dogs.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Greg B
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 03:11 PM

"I recognise the pleasure dog owners get. I have delivered political
leaflets 4 or 5 times a year for nearly 40 years. I never go into
gardens were I suspect their may be a dog."

Another good reason to have a dog. They reduce litter and save
trees.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 03:35 PM

I live near a big beach and a marshes nature reserve. This is what I see happening. If a dog-owner thinks someone is watching, they will pick up the shit (though I have to question the mentality of anyone who isn't utterly repelled by the thought, or feel, of nice, warm, fresh dog crap like putty in your hand with only 10 microns of plastic separating you from the vileness of the ordure). If no-one is looking (or they think no-one is looking) they leave the shit where it is. A very large number of those who were forced to pick it up resort to chucking the scrotum-like bag of turdaceousness into the nearest hedge. The bushes round here are festooned with these abominations.   On the marshes, almost all dog-owners (seven out of eight on a snapshot occasion the other day) ignore the prominent signs to keep dogs on leads (so as not to disturb ground-nesting birds and so on). As dog-owners can't actually read, the council has even resorted to painting large dogs-on-leads signs on the footpaths. But as dog-owners also have visual-spatial problems, these don't work either. The dogs charge around the marshes with gay abandon. Every dog-owner thinks their little darling is the exception that does not require these reasonable restrictions. Walking on the beach, you can expect to be routinely accosted by dogs racing around hundreds of yards from their owners. In addition, you will nearly always come across some moron "playing" with their incessantly-barking dog on the beach and taking absolutely no steps whatever to curb the racket, which can be heard on the clifftops half a mile away. If you're at a festival, and your stupid dog is belting around outside your control, leaving piss and crap wherever little children play, and some bearded old git comes up to you to protest, don't worry. It won't be me.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 03:58 PM

I thoroughly enjoyed meeting other people's dogs at Shrewsbury folk festival and got a great deal of pleasure from the simple fact that they were there

I wasn't at Shrewsbury but I never get any pleasure out of meeting a dog at festivals - whether or not they are accompanied by their owners.

The fact is that dogs at festivals are there because their owners cannot be bothered to make alternative arrangements. They are certainly not there for the dogs' benefit - for until someone appraises me differently dogs get nothing out of a folk festival that cannot be easily obtained without one.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Acorn4
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 05:45 PM

Just to add an extra point here, I have an autistic son, who is now 20, but like many autistic people is very scared of dogs.

We don't take James to Folk Festivals but I think our experiences may illustrate someting about dog owners. The biggest problem is meeting dogs on footpaths. James's fears are irrational and probably due to the unpredictability of dogs' behaviour.

We've found that dog owners fall into 3 groups. Group one, which I would say was probably about 90% read the situation when they see me holding onto James and will either put the dog on a lead ( James is OK with dogs on leads!) or hold it while we go past.

Group 2 will say something like "(S)he's very friendly, (s)he only wants to play" , but are fine when the situation is explained -there are probably about 8%.

It is group 3 (about 2%) that are the problem. On one occasion we ran across an Alsatian that appeared about 100 yards before its owners, causing James to mount a wall at the side of the footpath on the other side of which was a 20 foot drop. When the owners finally arrived I was holding on to my son tightly and it was about two or three minutes before they managed to get their beast on a lead.

The worst example was when a woman was "walking" her three large dogs off leads and they refused to leave James alone and surrounded him barking loudly. When I asked the woman if she would mind controlling her dogs, she replied that I SHOULD CONTROL MY SON!

She was one of those ignorant stuck up cows in Jodhphurs and although the only example of this sort of behaviour I have encountered, it did put us back to square one in our efforts to get James to not be scared of dogs.

I think these percentages probably translate quite well to those who have dogs at Folk Festivals - I think it would be a shame to make a blanket ban because of a few individuals.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 06:11 PM

"The fact is that dogs at festivals are there because their owners cannot be bothered to make alternative arrangements."

That's unfair, Uncle Dave. I kennelled my dog for each of the festivals where I was either camping or staying in accommodation this year. The only festival I took her to was last weekend, because I was only going for the afternoon, and I honestly thought she'd enjoy it. She did. And all of the people who stopped to talk to her enjoyed seeing her, too.

It's probably hard to understand if you're not a dog lover, but for people who are, the dog is a part of their family. They don't take them to festivals because they can't be bothered to make alternative arrangements: they take them because the dogs are their companions and they like having them around. If the dog is well behaved and the owner is responsible, there's really no reason that this needs to be a problem.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 07:26 PM

It is very hard to understand for quite a few of us humans that dogs can be such integral parts of the family that they simply have to be imposed on everyone else who are not part of your family. They bark, they piss, they crap, they jump up at people, all things which, if I did them, would have me rapidly consigned to the secure unit of some institution or other. My two ancient cats are integral parts of my family too. But I decided years ago that any animal I owned would not be a burden to me or anyone else outside my home. Therefore I selected a kind of animal for a pet that I would never have to impose on anyone else. If you meet me at a festival you may rest assured that my cats will be lurking in the greenhouse or somewhere similar back home, not yowling at you, shitting next to your tent (or pissing on it) or scaring your kids.   The biggest failing of dog-owners (apart from the extremely peculiar mindset that is the prerequisite for anyone who thinks it's a great idea to own a parasitic, unhygienic shitting machine) is that they can't understand why the rest of us don't all receive their disgusting little pooches with open arms. It's obvious. Do three things. Smell its arse, accidentally tread its shite into your carpet (the rest of us do), and try to have a conversation with it.   Next stop, the dog's home, and good riddance.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: bobad
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 07:34 PM

It's not difficult to see why some people prefer their pets over people.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 07:47 PM

I suppose a pet will never challenge you with a reasonable argument.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: bobad
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 08:06 PM

Like I said.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 08:16 PM

The usual pleasantries from Mr Shaw, I see. I've made my points. I'm done.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 08:29 PM

No you haven't. I asked you a reasonable question following your slagging off and you never got back to me! (Shut up, Steve...you're not worth it...) :-)

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 08:36 PM

"Some of you absolutists need to get off your high horses. You pontificate in generalities from the very narrow position of your own circumstances or prejudices."

Pretty much sums up all I have to say on the matter.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Barry Finn
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 08:53 PM

I don't mind dogs at all, matter of wack I have one at home & I leave her there every time I go out. She's a good dog, she'll bark when a stranger enters the yard, if you make a threatening move towards my kids she'll be all over you like a new suit, she' doesn't mess on the floor anymore cause she fertilizes the lawn & garden. I don't bring her to festivals though cause I can't trust her. If some kid wants to pet her & she's hot she probably will just lick the kid's hand but then the little brat might try & steal her doggie bone & the dog would be right to rip the kid's arm off. Another reason I don't bring her to festivals is because I hate pet snakes & so does my dog. Now if my dog can attend a festival what's to keep the pet snakes away & how can I tell my dog "DON'T" when she clamps her jaws on the ugly snakes back bone. Then it's goona be cats & rats & eliefants & infant unicorns with horns. I like to walkabout at festivals, hit different camp sites, go to a varity of workshops. Speaking of workshops,,, if I were to attend one about 'how to yodle' won't that be a muzzle, my dog could co-lead it, she can really howl. Bring in Allen Ginsburg. Really though how you gonna control a dog when through the loud speakers someone starts in with "I got a dog & her name is blue" then goes into a falsetto, forget it.

I was at Mystic a couple yrs ago & some of the group brought their dogs, one sailed through a few storms to get there, he wasn't right, took the whole festival before he was ok again. That dog hung it's self by it's leash when it got all wrapped up around the tree it was tied to. Good thing he could still yap, almost like a death nell, cause someone freed him from his noose & it attacked 2 others dogs on leashes at the red light in the middle of the street, good thing it happened in the crosswalk. It wasn't a fair fight, the owner of the other 2 dogs wouldn't let their dogs go so the little shit beat the crap out of both of them, they were much bigger too. The only reason it stopped was cause the owner of those 2 dogs got all wrapped up in the leashes & fell down, so the little shit dog let the other 2 dogs go & went for their ownber. By then someone found the little shit's owner & he wisked him away. The other dog was better though, it sat on stage during the performence & had on a T-shirt just like the performers & you couldn't tell it from us, except it drooled over some of the folks in the front row. Anyway the group'll probably never be invited back to Mystic again, not really the dog's fault, the dog never was off key, once but it couldn't play the pipes at all, it was awfull, it tried everything that made a noise & sucked at all of them, never found out who owned the instruments. I think Mystic may be rethinking their pet policy too.

Barry

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Barry Finn
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 08:58 PM

Oh, I should mention that my dog doesn't know a seeing eye dog from Adam.

Barry

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 04:01 AM

"The fact is that dogs at festivals are there because their owners cannot be bothered to make alternative arrangements."

I too would disagree with this comment.

If you've just shelled out over £100 for a weekend camping ticket to a festival, then sometimes the additional cost of kennelling a dog is just too much. It's either take the dog or not go at all, and I'm pretty sure most people would opt to take the dog.

LTS

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 05:51 AM

Liz, you choose to own a dog. That means you have to put up with various restrictions on your life. You have to walk the dog, feed the dog etc etc. You have to wipe up it's shit - although judging by the amounts on streets and open countryside where I live few dog owners seem to do so. Yes yes, I know they are irresponsible dog owners.

Let me tell you how irresponsible dog owners can be.
Dog owners in the this area were happy to walk their dogs on the school playing field. The one their kids were now unable to use for sports because of the dog shit. Yes, yes irresponsible dog owners - clearly their dogs were more important than their kid's recreation. The fact we can identify them as irresponsible did not make any difference to the fact that the school playing field was covered in dog shit.

The school had to raise the money and make an application from "Awards for All" to erect a "caged area" to be locked each evening and raise the money to re-seed the area. I would have preferred to bill the dog owners and the teacher's not to have spend their time writing applications for what ought to have been unnecesary funding. I am prepared to bet if challenged the guilty dog-owners would have thrown up their hands in horror and said "Not me guv', I am a responsible dog-owner".

I barred myself from a local pub because there was a dog running around loose near the kitchen and being a dog lover (sorry responsible dog-owner) the landlady took the dog's side. I wished her luck and suggested the dog would probably not buy as much beer as I did. Probably cost her hundreds of pounds over the years!

If you decide to attend a festival then you need to factor into the cost of leaving your dog behind in your other costs, food and drink for example, and then decide whether you can afford the festival or not.

It really is that simple.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,Fido
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 09:10 AM

A dog in the hen house!

Seems to me that this thread is becoming a slanging match and won't be long before it's stopped. I suspect Sandra has her answer here.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,Sandra
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 10:31 AM

I am sorry that this thread has become argumentative. I had no idea that feelings ran so high on the subject of dogs. Thanks to all who have contributed.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 10:36 AM

sandra,

many threads end up argumentative, I think it is the nature of one statement following another and some people not reading what others have written much earlier.

Most of the reasoned discussion probably occurs in the first 30 or 40 posts. After that things often repeated.

Thanks for great festival

L in C

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 11:31 AM

It's my experience both in real life, in local newspaper letter columns and on forums that you can't criticise dogs or their owners without attracting automatic howls of protest and insults from "dog-lovers." One such person, in a riposte to a letter of mine in the local rag, claimed that horses on beaches were much worse than dogs because they left so much more mess.   What you will never get is a dog-owner who will admit to what we all know is the case - that most owners have no idea how to control their dogs nor do they pick up the mess (unless they think someone was looking when the dastardly substance was being offloaded). Actually, the response on this thread has been very civilised.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: romany man
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 12:27 PM

As one who has taken my jack russells to festivals, they stay on leads at all times are excersised away from the festival grounds, i clean up after them, its not hard or difficult to do. as for not being bothered to kennel them, on the two occassions i have done so, both dogs ended up with kennel cough one nearly dying through complications to the kennel cough, and simply the cost, i could go to america for a good holiday in the sun for the money spent on a, getting to festival. b, costs at the festival, c, camoing costs, d, cost of kenneling, There will always be arguments about dogs, i work my dogs as my job is pest control, so should i stop going to festivals because of all this hoo ha,

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Peace
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 12:31 PM

Dog is a food for very hungry times. Just thought I'd mention that.

I like dogs, usually. I like most animals. I'm gonna take a Komodo dragon--ON A LEASH--to the next festival. Have it deal with the goose.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Marc Bernier
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 12:35 PM

OK! I'v been reading this thread right along, Debating whether or not to add my 2 cents. And here goes. The Mystic Seaport Festival has now been brought up by 2 contributors, and I will be the turd. Those of you who know me are aware that I'v been involved with the Mystic festival in various capacities for several years now. Whereas this may not be the opinion of the Management per se, I would venture to say that 'dog noise' is probably the #2 or 3 major annual nuisance at the festival. I don't recall anyone ever being bit, but the incidence Barry described earlier is certainly not a unique one, and on that and other occasions it is pure chance that no one was physically injured. Take also into consideration we have horses on the grounds at Mystic Seaport. Do you have any Idea what goes through a horses mind when it sees, hears, or smells a dog? The horse usually has no idea whether the dog is leashed or not, but the horse is usually very uncomfortable. Trust me, more than one "dog lover" has been heard saying "That's the horse driver's problem. My dog is well behaved.", meanwhile Fido is barking away at Mister Ed. Steve Shaw's comments do hold a degree of truth. Children do play on the village green; people do sit there and listen to music, and your smearing the turd with a baggy does not mean I won't find remnants on my shoes or jeans. Back to my first point, 'Dog Noise'. Dogs are social animals, they are not solitary beings in the wild, and when they see or smell another dog or animal the dog's tendency is to announce his excitement vocally. I don't know or care if they're saying "Hi, Hi, Hi" or "@#$% You, @#$% You, @#$% You", but the fact remains that they do tend to vocalize and don't seem to want to be taught to whisper. This is totally inconsiderate to performers and other patrons. I once made a comment from the main stage at Mystic to the effect of, "If you can't teach your dog to behave in public, leave it home. If my children behaved like your dog, I'd leave them at home." The response to which was a huge Cheer, (unfortunately the largest ovation I'v ever received professionally), and 2 people left. Some of you say restricted areas. Why would you go to a festival and not listen to music? If you are listening to music you're probably distracting someone.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 12:44 PM

Oh by the way, I don't have a dog, I have cats and a cat sitter comes in when we're away.

I like to see well behaved dogs but as the mother of an occasionally not so well behaved child, I can see both sides. Tolerance goes both ways.

LTS

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 01:17 PM

I'm really astounded at how livid some contributors seem!

I don't believe dogs should be allowed at larger festivals because of the noise and the possibility of biting. Any dog that thinks it, it's owner or it's territory are threatened will bite. Not fair to the people, not fair to the dogs.

Smaller festivals with fewer people, and I don't have a problem. The festival organizers and land owners must take responsibility for possible lawsuits.

The crap-on-the-grass argument is just plain stupid.
Skunks, woodchucks, foxes, rats, mice, rabbits, hedgehogs, birds, bugs, and everything else that lives outside shits on grass. It either gets picked up, washed off, or it dries up then it blows away and winds up in your mouth when you inhale to sing or bitch about dogs. Crap is everywhere. This hit home when I was in Kuwait and observed a dog present dry up and blow away in a couple of days. Where was it? Taken by the wind. It was in the air, along with all the other shit that had dried up and blown away over the centuries and everything that had burnt, including the people who had been incinerated during the war.

As for Bruce's comment: why eat dog food when you can use it for bait. (I love dogs and although I lived in S. Korea, I've never eaten one.)

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 01:39 PM

The "crap on the grass" argument is caused by the known bacterial and parasitic infections and infestations that can be carried by both dog and cat turds. You might think that by the time the turd has gone white and blown into the winds, they are no longer so dangerous, but Toxicara Roundworm eggs will stay in the soil. The "Dogs (Fouling of Land) Act 1996)" was passed (sorry) in order to cut down on dog mess in public places and an 'on the spot' fine of up to £1000 is payable if you're caught.

"Someone who falls into or accidentally touches dog faeces could be at risk from a disease call Toxocariasis which can lead to abdominal pain, pneumonia, asthma and even blindness.

And the problem doesn't go away the longer the dog faeces is left. Toxicara eggs can take up to two weeks to hatch." - quoted from the Reigate and Banstead Borough Council site.

Dog bites pale into insignificance compared with other bites and the infectious material passed in human on human bite action. Mind you, pigs are worse.


LTS

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 01:56 PM

To Romany Man

If you could go to America for a the cost of a festival - where would you put your dogs - because they won't be allowed onto an airline! And IMHE it's hard enough for a human to get into the USA never mind someone accompanied by a dog!!

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,dog owner
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 02:09 PM

LTS -
roundworm will only be present in unwormed dogs. Although there is the argument that those who don't worm their dogs may also be those who don't clear up after them. Not all faeces are dangerous.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 02:11 PM

It's harder to get a dog into the UK. There is no rabies, and I believe they'd like it to stay that way so there is a lengthy quarantine. I think airlines transport animals.

Liz, my point was that grass should always be considered to have been previously crapped upon by something.

And airlines carry pets. If they didn't, there would be no international dog shows. I don't even think the furballs need passports!

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Peace
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 02:17 PM

Not dog food. Dog!

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 02:36 PM

Animals with up to date pet passports are allowed into the UK (a bill presented originally by the Monster Raving Looney Party but adopted by the government of the time), which will give pedigree, vet's records, innoculations and other relevant information.

Jeri - I grew up in the country, poop is all around us. I was just pointing out the hazards that make more dog poop undesirable. Turds do not carry little cards to say if they've been innoculated, so all turds should be treated as potentially harmful. Not all pet owners worm regularly - many don't even know if their pet has had all its shots, neither do they check faeces for worms. But to consider grass as nothing but poop carrier, then we'd never enjoy sitting out on the lawn or in the park or on a hillside again. Sensible precautions such as not eating stuff that falls on the grass, washing hands and not licking the turf mean we avoid the worst.

Having said that, the best way to get a healthy immune system is to expose it to many and varied sorts of bacteria. You just can't win.

LTS

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 02:45 PM

Bruce, sounds like a bumper sticker.

I grew up in the country and was a veterinary technician as well (after growing up). I also have never eaten a dog turd on purpose. I've probably consumed accidental poop though, because it's everywhere and you don't develop an immunity to parasites. Plus, I had a dog and played in the grass. I never had roundworms to my knowledge. I think the major dogs-at-festival issue would be bites.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 03:27 PM

There do seem to be some rabid dog-haters here. AFAIK in the UK dog-haters are rare. There is a long symbiosis between dog and man (person) and we should ignore the extremists on both sides.

That said, if you are at a dog show and your dog goes for another dog you will normally be thrown out of the show for having an animal not under proper control. I have seen behaviour by both dogs and dog owners at festivals that would not be tolerated at dog shows. At Ely last year there was a young man with a boxer that he let do largely as it wished on a loose lead while he drank (and incidentally it was lager not bitter!) with his knuckle-dragging friends while the dog threatened any other dog anywhere near, and looked pretty iffy with humans too. He should have been made to leave.

Some animals do just fine at some festivals. I'm just back from the Knockholt folk-ale and there were 5 dogs and 2 ferrets there, (only about 30 people) and sheep in the next field: zero problems. But it's an acoustic festival and many dogs, particularly if they are gun-shy plainly suffer in range of amplified kick drum and electric bass so it is probably not a good idea to take most dogs to electric festivals.

I wouldn't take my Benjamin (border-cross) to an electric festival because I know he can be pretty iffy with other dogs, and ambivalent with some people, outside the house - and he will suffer, and therefore be more on edge in crowds and/or near loud amplification.

I can't take him to Knockholt either because of the sheep. It isn't rocket science.

If people applied sense, and those who didn't were speedily ejected, I think the problem would be insignificant.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 03:35 PM

Richard, I think you are speaking complete sense. Thankyou.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 04:48 PM

At Ely last year there was a young man with a boxer that he let do largely as it wished on a loose lead while he drank (and incidentally it was lager not bitter!) with his knuckle-dragging friends while the dog threatened any other dog anywhere near, and looked pretty iffy with humans too. He should have been made to leave.

Of course he should have been made to leave - and there was a rush of volunteers to do the job I am sure.

He got to stay precisely because he had a boxer and was young and had been drinking and because he had a load of knuckle-dragging friends and his dog looked pretty iffy with humans.

Throughout this thread I have said that once it is necessary to ask the dog and its owner to leave (and nearly everyone on this thread seems to think such occasions occur),it is too late.

Much easier not to let them in.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: oggie
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 05:47 PM

"If you've just shelled out over £100 for a weekend camping ticket to a festival, then sometimes the additional cost of kennelling a dog is just too much. It's either take the dog or not go at all, and I'm pretty sure most people would opt to take the dog."

Dogs are expensive, period. Insurance alone (you do, as a responsible dog owner have it, don't you?) is about £200 per dog per year. Food, vets bills etc on top. It ain't cheap. So kennelling is expensive? Part of owning a dog.

Having just lost an expensive stall cloth and some stock from a "well behaved and controlled dog" (on a lead even) that decided to take a p**s whilst it's owner was nattering to a friend I may well be biased! The lead was six foot long! Under control! Compensation offered? Nil! Got very shirty when I asked for name and address as I was claiming against their insurance. Guess what? They're not insured. One court claim coming up.

Steve

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Mo the caller
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 05:53 PM

All this assumes that the festival is on a closed site.
If, like Chippenham, it is all over town and the public has access to the campsite then it would not be fair to ban dogs from the campsite, though you could (and they probably do) say no dogs inside the concerts and dances.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 07:45 PM

OK. Jeri, there is animal shite everywhere, there's no denying. But rat shite, mouse shite, bird shite and all the rest are little turds that dry out quickly, get eaten by slugs overnight (who'd be a slug!) and generally don't get semi-permanently embedded in the tread of yer Jaysus-boots. Dog turds are big squashy things that last for days and attract flies (which then get contaminated and spread the pathogens all over the place) and are host to all manner of unpleasant diseases. Just tell the parents of the girl who died from E. coli infection picked up from dogshit (proven) on Dawlish beach a few years ago that dog turds don't matter.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 09:18 PM

Do badgers, foxes, cows and sheep not do big poos, then? You must live in a different countryside than me.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: folk1e
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 09:32 PM

OK .....I have a dog. I take my dog to all the festivals I go to, but would not take her into a venue!
She definitely enjoys them and does not cause a problem (we are in a caravan not a tent). People like her and generally want to stroke her (which she LOVES).
It still ticks me off to see dogs loose and uncontrolled, as I know we are judged by their standards!

If there was a dog ban I would almost certainly choose not to attend!
I steward at some of the festivals mentioned above (Shrewsbury Saddleworth Fylde Cleckheaton) and whilst I am certainly not indispensable ...... how many stewards/ punters can festivals afford to loose in these hard times?

PS   Mrs Akroyd definitely used to bite!

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 11:47 PM

I must declare that I am a "retired" dog owner, no longer able give a dog the type of life it should enjoy. However, all of the dogs I have owned have been taken to festivals, have lived with me in the tent or motorcaravan, and have fully integrated themselves with other festival-goers.
One of my dogs, a large lurcher, is still talked about fifteen years after his death. He walked with me on night security on the camp site at Sidmouth for many years. He deterred a number of people each year from coming "over the fence" at night. Some of these might have had evil intent. He made two arrests for the police. After two years of "voluntary" work he was always awarded his own steward's badge.
He could not have been left at home because he was part of the festival.
Besides, clever as he was, he never learned to use a tin-opener.

Colyn.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 04:22 AM

I really must tender my sincerest regrets...........

.....My Karma has just run over your Dogma.

Ralph

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: melodeonboy
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 04:37 AM

Has anyone seen the latest poster advert for Drontal dog worming pills? They've been put up in half the bus shelters in the Maidstone area (and presumably elsewhere). I find it very difficult to look at it without laughing.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: romany man
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 05:29 AM

Folkie dave if i went back to america it would be to stay, my 5 years working there were great,as for being difficult to get into the states , good on them, its about time someone stood up and said we dont want undesirables, and hey there is no problem getting dogs onto airlines should the need arise as long as they are properly crated inoculated etc, check facts before posting to forums, its monday im grumpy and ready for a row. just wait till i get to work im gonna really let rip. ha ha.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 05:47 AM

Do badgers, foxes, cows and sheep not do big poos, then? You must live in a different countryside than me.

I have never seen any of those things at festivals. Where did you see them? I think we should be told, so that we think about it as a festival we might want to avoid. Incidentally we have a lot of urban foxes around here in Sheffield (or one fox that gets around a lot!) Do you think it is the urban fox that leaves shit all over the pavements?

A security dog is just that. No connections with taking dogs to festivals. I am sure if the organisers wanted a dog patrol I am sure they asked for it and were insured against any untoward damage the security dog might have done. Because had that dog bit me I would have sued (as I did the owner of one of the dogs that bit me). And I don't remember signs saying "guard dogs on patrol" at Sidmouth - did I miss something?

Anyone who approaches an unknown dog is needs a gentle word in their ear as far as I am concerned.   

You left your dogs in tents or caravans whilst you enjoyed the festival? Does the dog mean so much to you that you are happy to leave it locked up in a caravan or a hot tent whilst you go and enjoy a folk festival? Or do you only go to festivals when it is cold weather - easily done this year I must admit.

And if you and your dog were at a folk festival together they did not fully integrate with me I can assure you. Why did you not leave it in kennels? He was emphatically not part of the festival - though he may have been in some people's eyes.

Incidentally there was a touch of anthropomorphism creeping in there.

I do doubt that the dog made two arrests for the police. At least not on his own.........

And has anyone else noticed - none of these perfectly-behaved-dogs-with-extremely-responsible-owners-that-go-to- folk-festivals-and-are-loved-by-everyone - none of them - not one - ever barks?

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 06:21 AM

Dave,

"And has anyone else noticed - none of these perfectly-behaved-dogs-with-extremely-responsible-owners-that-go-to- folk-festivals-and-are-loved-by-everyone - none of them - not one - ever barks?"

It's true, paragons of dogism I'd say. As for foxes we only have Urbane Foxes in Manchester and they wouldn't be seen dead at a Folk Festival on the grounds of dress code alone.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,not a dog owner
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 07:34 AM

so long as dogs are controlled and friendly I really like having them around at festivals even though I don't have one myself.

did I say that already... ??

I actively enjoy going to festivals attended by people with nice friendly dogs. Of which there are many. I don't have my own dog cos my lifestyle wouldn't be fair on one but I enjoy spending time around dogs, and can totally understand why a dog owner would want to take their pet to a festival. I know plenty of dogs who appear to enjoy the experience.

If you don't like them or are phobic or whatever then yes if a festival is trying to cater for all it should allow you to avoid dogs if you so wish... but if they're on a lead, you can, within reason.

Yes, some dogs bite. A small minority of dogs. Owened by irresponsible people. Equally, some cars run people over and injur them... if driven by a small minority of irresponsible people. Should we be banning cars at festivals too??

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: theleveller
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 08:00 AM

We take our dog to festivals, in name, with our band, Whipstaff, so-called after our lurcher, Susie, who is half whippet and half staffie. She, however, stays at home with our son as she is not a good traveller, even though she would have a great time licking faces and sniffing bums (but not necessarily in that order).

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 08:09 AM

Define irresponsible. Be honest, think of all the people you know who have dogs. Do their dogs stay close them, even off the lead, unless the owners give them express permission to run off and play? If you can't let your dog off the lead without it charging off out of control you can't call yourself a responsible dog-owner. Can they then recall their dogs to their side immediately with a single call (as opposed to repeated and ineffective bouts of shouting)? Do the dogs never run up to people, charge around their legs or jump up at them ("don't worry - he's only being friendly!")? Does the dog never bark incessantly as soon as it thinks there's anyone near the house/the car? Do they always keep the dog restrained in the car? (how "amusing" it is to see all those dogs' heads hanging out of moving cars!) Does the dog always behave itself when other dogs are around? Do they always give the dogs sufficient exercise or are the poor things locked in the house all day on their own?   Do they always, and I mean always, pick up the shit? No corner cutting? Do you think any of these criteria are unreasonable or unattainable?

We know the answer. There are actually very few responsible dog-owners. Of course, no government would even dare to think of toughening up on them. The biggest lie is that it's only a minority of irresponsible owners who let all the rest down. It's a privilege to own a dog. That privilege is all too often exercised without responsibility.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 09:00 AM

Guest not a dog owner

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 09:06 AM

Sorry about that - I was going to reply to "Guest not a dog owner" then decided all the points I wanted to make had been made already.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,not a dog owner
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 09:56 AM

Steve,

I think all those criteria perfectly reasonable and also attainable, and I know plenty of people who do achieve that with their dogs. They and their dogs are, for me, a pleasure to be around.

I do agree that plenty don't manage to achieve all of those things, even though they should. But I don't think a blanket ban on all dogs is the best way to deal with the situation. It's too easy to whack a ban in place every time something happens that some people don't like, and where does it stop?

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 10:15 AM

I think you'll find I haven't said anything about bans.   I am simply trying to challenge the "most-dog-owners-are-responsible" mindset.   They are clearly not, and if they were no-one would ever complain about dogs at all. Very large numbers of dogs are outside their owners' control and very large numbers of dogs misbehave in public.   That's the heart of the matter.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 10:33 AM

"It's too easy to whack a ban in place every time something happens that some people don't like, and where does it stop?"

The question is where does it start. How many bites, infections or traumertied children before a ban? One, two, ten, a hundred? Make a reasonable decision.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,not a dog owner
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 10:36 AM

sorry Steve if I was arguing with something you hadn't said, in a long thread like this I don't always manage to keep track of who said what.

I don't think I've said that "most dog owners are responsible" either - simply that I've met plenty who are. I guess I was simply trying to challenge a "some are bad therefore ban them all" mindset.

I do think that a lot of dog owners *are* responsible, by your definition, but agree that plenty are not. Ditto parents and drivers...

I guess I also feel that, while there are many irresponsibly looked after dogs, only a small proportion of *them* actually cause anybody physical or psychological harm either by teeth, poo or menaces. And while a victim of said harm might understandably feel that one incident is one too many, that comes back to my car banning analogy. The majority of irresponsibly cared for dogs that I've witnessed have caused nuisance but not much else, and I've seen more nuisance from drunks than from dogs. Ban beer at festivals, anybody?

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: theleveller
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 10:37 AM

"Very large numbers of dogs are outside their owners' control and very large numbers of dogs misbehave in public. "

Very large numbers of people are outside their own control at festivals and quite a few misbehave :)

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,not a dog owner
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 10:45 AM

we cross posted, Les....

I, personally, have now come across one incident of injury from dog bite at a festival, in over 15 years of festival going. In same period, I have known of one person who nearly died from tripping over a tent peg and damaging his femoral artery. I'm not calling for a blanket ban on tent pegs and, to my knowledge, neither is he.

yes I'm sure there have been plenty of other dog related incidents that I *don't* know about, but probably plenty of other non-dog related incidents too.

I'm not comfortable with knee jerk reactions even to tragedies.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 10:53 AM

Almost nothing carries zero risk.

The mindset that any risk is too great has cost us dearly. Children may not climb trees. When younger (about 11 I guess) friends and I used to go unaccompanied to play in the local fields (among the cowshit) and amongst the dense trees of Stanmore common (hurtling along slippery muddy paths on our bikes) where who knows what lurked behing every other tree. We'd badger Steve Parks for a ride in the sidecar on his 500 AJS (not much bite to it but a lovely bark), and Pippy Stratton's older brother for a ride in his MG Magna. Steele's older brother drove us to school in his Alvis estate. I don't imagine any would have passed an MoT today.

However did the human race survive?

Let's take sensible precautions. There is no guarantee of zero risk until everything we do is sanitised and sterilised, no bacteria in cheese, all beer in sterile aluminium drums, no badger sets in the woods.

As for dogs - the dogs should probably not, for their own sakes, be at large electric festivals, but there should be no ban on them. At anything other than slightly enlarged parties for families and friends (with no PA) dogs should be on leads (but not muzzled, it makes it very hard for them to drink) and under close control.

Any person with a dog making a threat of itself should be asked to leave (with the dog).

I've never heard of a child being bitten at a Kennel Club authorised dog show or novelty dog show or exemption dog show. I've only ever seen a couple of people thrown out for having a dog out of control. We used to let our younger daughter, when nothing more than a toddler, roam at dog shows (not usually Maidstone, too close to the river) - we'd put the bench number round her neck on a bit of string so that she could be returned to our dogs on their bench if necessary.

On one occasion we found her curled up on someone else's dogs' bench sound sleep with their dogs. No harm done.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 11:13 AM

I'm reminded at this point of the question once posed by Humphrey Litteleton.

"How many legs have donkeys?"

The answer being.....

"No legs have Donkeys"

Could apply to Dogs too, at a pinch.
Oh Well on with the game I suppose.
(becoming more surreal as the hours pass.)

PS1 My Dog's gone to Jamaica......Of it's own accord?
PS2 My Dog smells terrible......Why, Hasn't it got a nose?

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 11:39 AM

Richard I doubt if anyone here is asking for sanitisation. I am certainly not. And I did many of those things as a child too. But the world has changed - sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worst.

The fact is that there are other places that people do not take dogs in fact would never dream of taking their dogs. I have never seen a dog in a cinema, I doubt they are allowed in at Glyndebourne, I have never seen a dog at a football matches etc. Dog owners who go to such events make other arrangements for their pets. I'd like folk festivals to be part of that same scenario.

Let's just remember this thread was started because a child was bitten at Shrewsbury Folk Festival and needed seven stitches.

It was a bit late throwing the owner out and the dog out at that point wassn't it?

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 11:51 AM

"Let's just remember this thread was started because a child was bitten at Shrewsbury Folk Festival and needed seven stitches.

It was a bit late throwing the owner out and the dog out at that point wassn't it? "

I think you have said it all Dave.

But I will say this again:

The question is where does it start. How many bites, infections or traumertised children before a ban? One, two, ten, a hundred? Make a reasonable decision.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 11:56 AM

If children are bitten at folk festivals but not at dog shows the reason is not dogs.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 12:16 PM

I think it is a fair guess that people have been bitten at dog shows.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 12:16 PM

I've only ever seen a couple of people thrown out for having a dog out of control.

You mean even at dog shows etc there are irresponsible dog owners? The mind boggles......

If children are bitten at folk festivals but not at dog shows the reason is not dogs.

The logic of that defies me Richard. No dogs=no dog bites. Everyone at the festival could be an irresponsible dog-owner as far as I am concerned - so long as they don't bring their dogs.

And I repeat (to which no-one has yet provided an answer) once a dog owner and their dog get to the stage where they need to be asked to leave - and you yourself have provided enough evidence to show they exist Richard - then it is too late.

As a matter of interest, tell me did you ask the irresponsible boxer-owning, lager-drinking young bloke with a group of knuckle-dragging friends you saw at Ely festival to leave because he was an irresponsible dog owner?

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 12:29 PM

It seems people - though admittedly this gentleman seems to have no problem being bitten by a dog - do get bitten at dog shows....

http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/uk_national_entertainment/3562483.Terrier_bites_presenter_at_dog_show/

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,not a dog owner
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 12:37 PM

Les and Folkiedave,

by your logic then might I suggest that as well as banning dogs from festivals could we please also ban:

alcohol
cars
children
tent pegs
camping gas
uneven ground
low walls
musical instruments
local residents

all of the above have at some point caused me, or people I personally know, irritation or injury at festivals. Some of them more seriously injurous than others, admittedly. If you only want to ban the potentially life threatening bits then I'd just stick with banning alcohol, cars, tent pegs and low walls.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,not a dog owner
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 12:40 PM

oh, and performers. One of them head butted somebody at a festival I went to once. Admittedly, he was drunk and aggressive at the time, but then you don't know which performers are going to get drunk and aggressive beforehand do you, so probably best to ban the lot of them...

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 12:49 PM

GUEST,not a dog owner,

Well said. Anyone who wants to avoid dog haters could do a lot worse than look at this site.

http://www.dogfriendlybritain.co.uk/

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 12:50 PM

Let's sort the dogs out first, then we can turn to the other stuff.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 01:05 PM

Read your own publicity. As Purves said - dog bites are rare CERTAINLY AT DOG SHOWS.

The oafs at Ely should have been removed by security. As soon as the dog's propensity and the owner's lack of control were manifested. Not the job of one short fat grumpy elderly punter.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 01:33 PM

Read my publicity?

I've never heard of a child being bitten at a Kennel Club authorised dog show or novelty dog show or exemption dog show. I've only ever seen a couple of people thrown out for having a dog out of control.

Rare to be bitten at dog shows? Richard it ought not to happen at all!! If you can find "irresponsible dog-owners" at dog shows what chance to the rest of us have?

Clearly it is OK to bite judges - especially if they are ex Blue Peter presenters.

As for security being there to remove recalcitrant dog owners - I am not sure what sort of festivals you go to - but I have been to about ten this year. None have needed that sort of security. Are you suggesting organisers get security in to throw out recalcitrant dog-owners? Just in case? Isn't that the nightmare scenario you were complaining about in an earlier post?

Far far easier to ban dogs.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 01:48 PM

The point is Dave that they were thrown out, before any harm was done.

It may be that that is not happening at folk festivals, and it should.

The decent dog owners who take reasonable care and the decent dogs should not be demonised.

Every festival should have security. If they are not professional "bouncers" then they are at least charged with security, and the reponsibiility to deal with security is theirs.

Reasonable care is what is needed. That standard is met, I suggest, by a "dogs on leads, and under control" rule.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 02:30 PM

Every festival should have security. If they are not professional "bouncers" then they are at least charged with security, and the reponsibiility to deal with security is theirs.

I agree and that security should be there commensurate with the possible risks. They should do all they can to minimize those risks. At many folk festivals volunteer stewards are enough.

One way they can minimize risks is to ban dogs. No more risks from that direction.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 03:30 PM

A man on a mission! I see reason and reasonableness are not on the agenda.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 03:48 PM

Following my posting abouty Dog Friendly Britain, I've now found a similar site. It's called Doggie Pubs at http://www.doggiepubs.org.uk/ .

Both sites have lashings of information about training, vets, health care, dog friendly accommodation etc. Everything in fact which the responsible dog owner needs for a responsible dog.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 03:59 PM

Streets and parks and public spaces are for human beings. They earn the money to pay the taxes to maintain those spaces. Dogs are basically parasitic on the human race. They pay no taxes yet they cause expense and inconvenience by making a mess and taking up doctors' time to treat bites, etc. Festivals are for human beings too. I'm not aware that special shows are put on at festivals to entertain dogs. All this ban kids/louts/booze, etc., is a red herring. In any case, I don't usually talk about bans (though I might admit to being secretly relieved if they come into force). I just want dog owners to understand that they have not got the untrammelled moral right to inflict their badly-behaved, noisy, unhygienic pets on those of us who happen to dislike dogs, which is a perfectly reasonable position to have.   We are obligatory but the dog is optional. Now I wouldn't ban caravans either, but I'd put a road tax of £2500 a year on them and restrict their presence on roads to the hours between midnight and 5 a.m. Quite reasonable don't you think? Hope I haven't lost you, Dave... ;-)

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 04:13 PM

I don't dislike dogs. Just don't want them at folk festivals and shitting around where I live, slobbering all over me and hearing how "he only wants to play". And barking. And biting people.

Apart from that they are OK. Mostly.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 04:34 PM

Thanks for that list Fred. It tells people which pubs to avoid too!!

Incidentally looking at the entries for the area(s) I know, it is way out of date.

And one of them that is in - the Rockingham Arms at Wentworth, threw out the BBC Folk Club of the Year.

Still it welcomes dogs - so that's OK.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,bloke
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 05:54 PM

We took our dog to Shrewsbury. I'm pretty sure he liked it, lots of tail wagging and looking pleased with himself. Lots and lots of people seemed happy to see him. Loads of adults stopping to say hello to him, hardly passing a word to me or who ever was walking him at the time. So I guess for lots of people dogs are welcome at festivals. Perhaps if you find their presence so difficult you should only go to festivals where dogs are not allowed? That way you are not taking away any thing from people who do like dogs around.

I know there are a few cases of people getting bitten by dogs, but I would bet there are many more cases of people being harmed by drunks, so that would appear to be a more pressing issue if you are interested in protecting people. I don't like being around loads of drunk people, so even though I like real ale I don't go to beer festivals. Cars on sites are also a major risk, so perhaps your attentions should go there too.

Or ban dogs and see the number of people suporting folk festivals drop by a fair amount.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 05:59 PM

195.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: SharonA
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 06:41 PM

Even if all festival-goers with dogs kept them on a leash and were able to control their dogs on the leash and keep them from jumping on passersby or fighting or biting, and even if those dog owners cleaned up ALL the poop that their dogs left behind, there's still the issue of urination and other excretions.

I would not want to walk around festival grounds where a dog had recently squatted and made water. At festivals around here, people sit right on the grass -- sometimes on blankets, sometimes not. I would not want to sit in a dog's piddle... or in the residue of dog poop that had not been properly picked up by the owner... or in dog diarrhea... or in dog vomit... or in a puddle of dog saliva that some breeds drool.

If I had children, I would not want my children to walk on, sit on, roll in the grass on, or otherwise make contact with any of the abovementioned things that dogs excrete.

Then there's the noise of barking which interrupts the enjoyment of the music that I would be attending for the purpose of enjoying.

Lots of disadvantages here, and NO advantages, for festival-goers who do not have a dog (and for those who are considerate enough to leave their dog at home). I say ban them from festivals. Let them roam free in a dog park, but do not turn a music festival for people into a dog park.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 07:14 PM

Then there's the noise of barking which interrupts the enjoyment of the music that I would be attending for the purpose of enjoying.

Bad mistake there SharonA - no dog barks when it is owned by a responsible dog-owner - and certainly not at night.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 07:53 PM

We took our dog to Shrewsbury.

Why? What do dogs get out of a folk festivals? Is there a dog entertainer? Or do you leave the dog on its own whilst you go to a concert or a workshop. In a tent? caravan? motorhome? Does it bark whilst you are away from it? How do you stop it barking if you do? Do you rush out of concerts to stop it? Take it into concerts? Do you take your dog everywhere you go? Do you go to the cinema? Concerts? Greengrocer? Butcher? Supermarket?

I'm pretty sure he liked it,

Anthropomorphism. You have no idea whether the dog liked it or not.

lots of tail wagging and looking pleased with himself

Good for the dog - he not do this normally then? And how does a dog show he is looking pleased with himself?

Lots and lots of people seemed happy to see him. Loads of adults stopping to say hello to him

They said "Hello?" Really? Total strangers talked to your dog and expected a reply?

hardly passing a word to me or who ever was walking him at the time

People spoke to a dog and ignored a human? Clearly we are a dog-loving nation and not a person loving nation.....

So I guess for lots of people dogs are welcome at festivals

Really? It would be possible to draw other conclusions!!

Perhaps if you find their presence so difficult you should only go to festivals where dogs are not allowed? That way you are not taking away any thing from people who do like dogs around

Perhaps if you left your dog at home those of us that are not particularly fond of dogs would not have to put up with dogs biting children. Did you not read the first post?

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 11:12 PM

Just an idea to (hopefully) lighten this thread.
How about organising a festival, just for dogs?

To be held in GNAWICH perhaps.

Provisional Line-up (Subject to agreed Bonio allowance)

Show Of Hounds
Steeley Spaniel
Saint Bernatd Wrigley
The Poo-zies (Sorry girls!)
Coope Boyes and Shi Tzu
Blowzaborzoi
Lunasa Apso

Any more that yould like to see?

Ralphie

PS. Bob Fox didn't sound too keen!

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 11:41 PM

LATE ADDITIONS

Beaglenifty
Gloworming Tablets

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 02:28 AM

If we're going to bitch about doggie excretions....

What DO doggies do when they get bogies up their nose?


LTS

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 02:33 AM

200!

LTS

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: theleveller
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 03:41 AM

I don't take my dog to festivals for selfish reasons - I don't want the responsibility of looking after her when I could be behaving in my usual irresponsible way. It's hard enough having a 8-year old child to keep your eye on, let alone a dog!

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 04:05 AM

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 04:17 AM

I say ban dogs from festivals, I'm sure they don't like it, they fight, poo and get scared by the fireworks.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 04:20 AM

I tried dog at a festival but I couldn't get the damned thing lit.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 04:25 AM

That was the idea of putting the list up, so that I could have a drink in peace.


Thanks for that list Fred. It tells people which pubs to avoid too!!

Incidentally looking at the entries for the area(s) I know, it is way out of date.

And one of them that is in - the Rockingham Arms at Wentworth, threw out the BBC Folk Club of the Year.

Still it welcomes dogs - so that's OK.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: theleveller
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 04:36 AM

In my experience, the hot dogs at festivals are far more of a health hazard than real dogs.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: romany man
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 04:58 AM

Lets start something new, what about my ferrets they go to festivals with me, and seem to sleep through most of it, but hey i can put em in me pocket or up a trousert leg, its amazing people cant do that with dogs,

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 05:21 AM

At last common sense.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: theleveller
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 05:27 AM

Romany Man, if your ferrets and my lurcher worked together, we'd be able to supply food for the whole festival. Everyone like rabbit pie?

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 05:29 AM

Go for it Leveller, it makes more sense than most of dogist posts

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,Sooz on holiday
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 05:37 AM

Our dog enjoys being with us. We go to festivals. If dogs aren't welcome, neither are we.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 05:49 AM

Ralphie, you forgot the Corrs. Just pronounce it in English instead of Irish...


Where's me coat...

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 05:50 AM

Sandra Cur?

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 06:02 AM

Chihuahawumba?

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: theleveller
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 06:02 AM

Even though dogs aren't allowed at Cambridge, I've been told that a lot of dogging goes on in the bushes around the duck pond at night. Can someone explain this to me?

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 06:06 AM

Better and better, woof

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 06:12 AM

If Only Dept.

Kirsty McCollie

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: melodeonboy
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 06:22 AM

Doggie MacLean?

WOOF, WOOF!

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: theleveller
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 06:31 AM

Shooglebumsniffty.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: theleveller
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 06:40 AM

Kate Woofby
Peat Dog Fairies
Bitches of Elswick (sorry ladies)

Aaaaaaargh!

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 06:41 AM

Ewan MacCollie

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,not a dog owner
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 06:45 AM

thanks for dismissing my post as a red herring, Les. I was actually trying to make a serious point.

I agree that you remove the risk of dog bites by totally banning dogs. And that does not in any way impinge on the enjoyment of people such as yourself who do not want to be anywhere near dogs at festivals anyway.

However, quite a lot of people such as myself enjoy the fact that other people take their dogs to festivals, so I would lose out by your ban, and from other posts here there are others who feel the same.

My point is, if you feel it reasonable to rule against something to remove a small risk, then there are lots of other candidates too, for things to ban. Why pick on dogs specifically? Why stop there?

Re: Sharon's point about dog mess, urine, drool, etc. Those are not the only things to end up on the grass at festivals. All kinds of food and drink and worse (spit, vomit, broken glass, rusty nails...) end up there too. Not having dogs there wouldn't stop you needing to be careful where you sit, or stop you needing to wash your hands carefully...

All other issues with noise, irritation, heat exhaustion, whether they actually want to be there or not do apply just as much to (some)children and (some) drunks as they do to (some) dogs.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: theleveller
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 07:21 AM

OK, seriously then, GUEST:nado, I think that if dogs are allowed at festivals the organisers should recognise the fact and provide the necessary facilities, such as designated toilet areas (in the same way that many caravan sites do) and also make hard and fast rules as to where dogs are permitted to go. The onus, of course, would fall on the stewards to enforce the rules.

Incidentally, at the caravan site where I stayed during the Osmotherley Gathering, someone had a cat on a lead. So what about other animals at festivals?

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 07:24 AM

Les Barker (duh...)
Pete Quinn and the London Lassies
Clan McPeke

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 07:33 AM

"thanks for dismissing my post as a red herring, Les. I was actually trying to make a serious point. "

Sorry this is post 223. I can't see how I have dismissed you point specifically.

I have read all the post as they have appeared and people are just making the same points over and over again. A number of us have tried to sum up what has been said, but later posters - on both sides - ignore this process.

I have never been bothered by a dog at a festival but I have only been to a couple of dozen in my life. I have been bothered by dogs with and without owners close by hundreds and hundreds of times and been biten, jumped and chased a bit and trud in more dog shit than I can count.

Remember this?

"I wonder if I could ask for your help? A child was bitten by a dog at SFF and needed seven stitches. If anyone has any views on dogs at festivals would you be so good as to post on here or the festival blog - over the coming weeks we are going to decided if we should ban them or not. Many thanks for your help."

It was the first post.

As far as I can see all that could be said has been said. I trust nobody else will post unless they have read the 223 others and either have something original to say or as is happening now something funny!

Cheers

L in C

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 07:39 AM

Cathal McKennell

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 07:44 AM

How many people have spotted (?) that dog is god backwards and that Rover rhymes with Johovah?

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 07:47 AM

I agree with Guest Not a Dog Owner yet again. Some years ago I started visiting a jazz session which was held in a rather cramped pub. I live on my own and my dog hates being left alone when I go out, so I take him with me whenever possible. After a few visits I asked the landlord and the band leader if they'd mind my bringing the dog in - offering the proviso that I'd put him back in the car if he didn't settle. Both were delighted to welcome him in and, despite the noise from the band (yes jazz bands are usually a lot louder than folk acts) he settled under the table as good as gold, stirring only when I bought him a bag of crisps or somebody stopped to stroke him.

Ben proved a huge hit with the band and session goers alike and, in the several months before circumstances forced the session to seek new premises, I never received a single adverse comment or a sideways look from anyone.

Alas, when we did move, it was to a private club with a no dogs policy, so he now has to stop in the car. Yet, despite the fact that the band has been in the new venue for about 3 or 4 years, there is never a week goes by but I get several people asking after him.

This might come as a shock to one or two Mudcatters, but dogs are actually popular with a very large section of the populace.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: theleveller
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 07:49 AM

Quite agree, Les, we've done serious.
Now, let's hear it for John McHusky and Fetch, Boy and Simpson.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 07:55 AM

My point is, if you feel it reasonable to rule against something to remove a small risk, then there are lots of other candidates too, for things to ban. Why pick on dogs specifically? Why stop there?

You are perfectly entitled to make that point - but some festivals already ban dogs. Shrewsbury organisers - after an incident when a child was bitten - are clearly asking questions about it too.

I think Steve has a good point - let's have a special dog friendly area where all the dogs and their owners can be together - with special dog-loving stewards to look after them. After all there will be plenty of volunteers from all these dog lovers going to festivals.

All dog-owners to pitch their tents/park their caravans in this area.

Dogs allowed to wander freely in this area if the owners so wish.

People can come up and make conversation with the dogs if they so wish.

Dogs to have a season ticket for the time they are on site - same price as a person ticket to pay for fencing to mark the area and extra security when some lager lout with a boxer on a long lead needs to be asked to leave. (See previous posts from Richard Bridge)

No dogs to be left alone, at least one person to be with their own dog at all times.

All dog owners to show insurance against the possibilty of their dog causing damage to people or property and up-to-date veterinary certificates showing a clean bill of health. (After all as responsible dog owners you have this already don't you?)

Any dog causing trouble to be asked to leave immediately along with their owners.

No refunds.

What could be fairer than that?

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: theleveller
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 07:57 AM

I was at a festival recently when someone trod in some dog shit. Another festival-goer who was passing said, "I just did that" and wondered why they got their nose rubbed in it.

Hey, the old ones are the best!

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 08:06 AM

Posted without comment....

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Fred McCormick - PM
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 10:37 AM

As the owner of a large extremely well behaved labrador/Rhodesian ridgeback cross,

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Fred McCormick - PM
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 07:47 AM


Alas, when we did move, it was to a private club with a no dogs policy, so he now has to stop in the car.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,not a dog owner
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 08:46 AM

fair point that this goes round and round. Not quite sure why I'm continuing to post but hey, passes the time.

Yes, Sandra from Shrewsbury asked a specific question triggered by a specific, tragic and unecessary incident and unsurprisingly different people have different views about it. I offered a short reply initially and only felt moved to continue the debate when it felt like a vocal few might be giving the impression that the majority felt that it would be best to ban dogs at Shrewsbury. I'd rather be vocal on the other side and give the impression that, yes, maybe people do have strong feelings about this, but not unanimously in favour of a total ban.

Dave's solution sounds almost reasonable to me. Can we also have a fenced in area for children, to keep them out of my way? And a separate one for all consumers of alcohol? Excellent, now that we're all nicely segregated I'm sure we'll have a lovely time.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Mr Red
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 08:50 AM

You can insist on dog muzzles but people will ignore it.
You could suggest doggy nappies but it ain't gonna happen, you can insist all you want that people clear-up after their dogs but enough won't to make it meaningless. And you can insist that all dogs be on leads too but it is unlikely to be universally adopted.
Legally the owners are responsible but to one bitten child the legal position is irrelavent.

It is not the dogs that cause the problem. They can be controlled in various ways. But kids dashing about doing what kids do (including baiting dogs) - dogs may just react. All the fine words and insurance policies about what should happen are small comfort.

There is not a happy answer, only the draconian or the gamble or a mishmash of the two.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 08:50 AM

Sorry Dave. Wrong again. I have a large Ford Mondeo with plenty of room for the dog to stretch out in comfort, and he has his own water bowl in there.

By the way; "......... many of them come slobbering up to me. "He's only being friendly" they say. Not as far as I am concerned he isn't."

Strange how the behaviour of some humans provokes exactly the same reaction in me.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: theleveller
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 08:56 AM

"Can we also have a fenced in area for children, to keep them out of my way?"

Our previous dog, a Staffordshire bull terrier, was a better traveller than our current dog and used to travel in a large dog crate in the back of the estate car. He also loved to go in the crate when he was at home so we put his bed in it. My daughter, who was then 3, also liked the crate and would get in and close the door. One day a visitor called, came into the kitchen and saw a small girl apparently shut in a cage……

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 09:06 AM

GUEST,not a dog owner,

"Can we also have a fenced in area for children, to keep them out of my way?"

I think this explores the idea of the slippery slope - which we are always on or the thin end of the wedge which is always available.

Why stop at children. Are their any other groups which you would like to put elsewhere? I leave it to others to list them.

I guess what we are calling for is a variation of species -ism. Many of us are prepared to discriminate against other species by killing them, eating them or destroying their habitats and so on. Some how most of us don't do this to children. But remember this?

"I wonder if I could ask for your help? A child was bitten by a dog at SFF and needed seven stitches. If anyone has any views on dogs at festivals would you be so good as to post on here or the festival blog - over the coming weeks we are going to decided if we should ban them or not. Many thanks for your help."

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,not a dog owner
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 09:08 AM

he he nice image, theleveller.

Ever seen the big fabric tubes that Jan the Blackboard Van lady has for kids to play in at festivals? She ties kids into them with a knot at each end and they bounce around looking kind of like lumpy animated sausages? I've always had an image of her, Hansel & Gretel witch-like, collecting them all up at the end of the day and hanging the sausage children up on big hooks inside her van and driving them away to her gingerbread cottage in the dark forest...

No offence intended to Jan mind you, she does a great job entertaining the kids at the festivals she's booked at. It's just my overactive imagination... :)

lets please keep Shrewsbury as a festival that has something for everybody, that's what I reckon!!

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,not a dog owner
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 09:22 AM

er... wrote my post before I saw yours Les so my final sentence there wasn't intended as an answer to your post as such...

... but my sentiment does remain the same - saddened as I am by the incident that happened at Shrewsbury this year I would still, as a punter, who is sometimes there with small children so most of my 'keeping kids seperate' comments were facetiousness (is that a word?), prefer that people were still allowed to bring dogs to the festival. That said, I would be happy if the controls on them were more stringent (i.e. short leads at all times, certain areas where they are not allowed to go, owners and dogs asked to leave if any sign of irresponsible owner behaviour...). That is where I'd be happy to sit on the gamble/draconian sliding scale.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: romany man
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 09:25 AM

Leveller, ferrets lurchers jack russells all ready to supply the pot. just as an aside its me job as well to do pest control where poisons gas and guns cant be used, should get the anti somethings going on another thread, oh well off to work. rabbit an squirrel stews good.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,not a dog owner
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 10:10 AM

mm..mmm... sounds tasty... I've never eaten squirrel but hear it's nice. Rabbit always goes down well :)

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Banjiman
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 10:41 AM

I've spotted something.......FolkieDave & Steve Shaw aren't all that keen on dogs!

BTW:

Old Blind Dogs?
Glory strokes ?
Eric Beagle.......

Would they be playing Spaniel Hill?

Paul

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 10:57 AM

Strange how the behaviour of some humans provokes exactly the same reaction in me.

Somehow I can't imagine humans slobbering over you very often Fred - but then, there is no accounting for taste.

As for the idea of a separate dog area - well some festivals have separate areas; quiet and noisy for example. So nothing special there.

Some festivals have specialist care for children. So again there is nothing special about it.

specific, tragic and unecessary incident and unsurprisingly different people have different views about it.

I doubt people have differing views about whether a child at a festival should be bitten by a dog. People have differing views about what should be done about it.

We learn of three children bitten by dogs at festivals and a miscarriage from this thread alone, one of which was my own daughter. One child bitten by a dog is too many as far as I am concerned.

The easy way to stop it is to ban dogs at folk festivals - or as I suggested have a separate area a long way away specifically for dogs. A place where dog lovers can live and love their dogs to their heart's content and the rest of us can get on with our lives without being bothered or bitten by them.

Surely with this specialist area responsible dog owners wouldn't mind paying a little extra to have your dog with you at a festival?

And leaving if it disturbed people? By barking for example.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 11:02 AM

No objection to working dogs, assistance dogs, guard dogs, farm dogs for example - just don't want so-called pets (the ones that bite children) at folk festivals.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: theleveller
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 11:31 AM

Personally, I've no truck with dogs that bite anywhere, not just at festivals. I've no truck with their owners, either. I've owned several dogs of so-called 'vicious' breeds – an English bull terrier, a Staffie and a bull mastiff – and they never bit my children or any other people, or even other dogs, despite provocation. What's more, they were all cat-friendly. There are a couple of reasons for this: first of all I vetted the breeders to ensure they came from non-vicious parentage and, secondly, I trained them properly. My current dog, half Staffie and half whippet, came from a rescue centre but we made sure that she was both child- and cat-friendly before adopting her (she is, unfortunately, a little too sofa-friendly).

Sorry if I sound holier-than-thou, but it's simply a question of responsibility – if you own a dog, it's your responsibility. No 'ifs' or 'buts'.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 11:55 AM

half Staffie and half whippet

Mmmm... sounds delicious. I'll have one of those please, with chips and a side order of mushy peas.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 11:58 AM

I don't how significant this is but I saw a cherub in a T shirt at Shrewsbury with this on the front:

"So many kittens - so few recipes"!

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 12:03 PM

Soz, me cookieless above LiC.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: theleveller
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 12:03 PM

"Mmmm... sounds delicious."

I think you'd find my Whipstaff a bit on the tough side. I've always found poodles a lot more palatable.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 12:08 PM

mmm... sounds delicious. I'll have one of those please, with chips and a side order of mushy peas.

Where's Moor and Coast when you need them?

And change my mushy peas to avocado dip.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: theleveller
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 12:12 PM

Avocado dip - with a whipstaff? Bit poncey that!

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,Rosie
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 12:55 PM

After Towersey this year and the dog fight in the beer tent really upsetting my sister, I really think dogs should be banned from sites like this. There were so many dogs at Towersey I spent half the weekend wondering where they were all 'toileting' to be honst, and the fact is that even if you clean up after a dog, the residue (yuck) is still there and dog mess can cause blindness in children. I think most of the dogs belonged to day trippers at Towersey but honestly, I think they were in the way, noisy, smelly, and at times dangerous. And I count myself as an animal lover (although admittedly a cat person)!

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,not a dog owner
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 01:04 PM

"I doubt people have differing views about whether a child at a festival should be bitten by a dog. People have differing views about what should be done about it. "

oh come on Dave if you're going to be nitpicking about meaning at least get it right - the object of my sentence was Sandra's question (i.e. should we ban dogs?) therefore I was correct to be saying "people have differing views about it". By quoting only half my sentence you twisted the meaning...

"And leaving if it disturbed people? By barking for example. "

fwiw in my opinion any special restrictions etc on what people could do with their dogs at festivals should be safety based and nothing else. Fair enough to restrict so that people who want to avoid physical contact with a dog or its leavings can do so. In addition, there could/should be (and probably are) general restrictions on not annoying other festival goers, but I don't see why barking dogs should be singled out over and above screaming babies/early morning whistlers/late night drunks/the lady sitting next to you in the concert who keeps going to the loo. A little tolerance goes a long way.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 01:53 PM

Mushy peas and Whitby cod I am first in the queue at Moor and Coast.

Marvellous - but avocado dip with whipstaff. I think you'll find it normal in some places.

http://www.riverford.co.uk/recipes/recipe.php?recipeid=113&catid=7

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 02:05 PM

fwiw in my opinion any special restrictions etc on what people could do with their dogs at festivals should be safety based and nothing else

I made a perfectly reasonable suggestion about special provision for dogs in the same way as we have special provision for children at many festivals.

Which of my proposals would you disagree with?

I should have added no dogs to be left unsupervised.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 02:21 PM

"Somehow I can't imagine humans slobbering over you very often Fred - but then, there is no accounting for taste."

Actually, Dave, where I'm concerned people tend to drool rather than slobber.

In any event, I'm surprised you've never met my dog. I always bring him with me to the carol singing. Of course he doesn't come in the pub while the sing's on. But in accordance with the Royal's dog friendly policy (as it says on the door, please ask first, because they've two dogs of their own), I bring him in after the crowds have thinned out.

Then he lies there as good as gold while I have my dinner. Naturally we sit well away from the other diners as I'm not very keen on people feeding him scraps. Usually we take that single table to the left of the organ near the kitchen. Of course he gets his own dinner when we get back, but the management invariably give him a few dog biscuits. So that's the two of us well contented.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 02:56 PM

Dog biscuits? Hmmm... I've never tried them in biscuits.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 02:56 PM

Sandra,
As someone who has been to all the Bridgnorth and Shrewsbury festivals so far perhaps I am part of the core constituenct to whom your question was addressed. I have taken my two daughters and various of their friends to 60 or more festivals in this time and have never been close to any significant trouble with dogs. There must be collective history of thousands of fes attendances in this thread and yet there are only first hand accounts of a couple of minor incidents, none life threatening.

I don't have a dog myself but it always gives me a little lift to see anyone, human or canine enjoying themselves.   It strikes me as a bit arrogant that so many people here find the need to tell others what their dogslike/ dislike should do shouldn't do. One of the things I used to like about the world of folk festivals was the diversity and tolerance, the people very different to me getting by in a friendly live and let live mode.

The thing which has increasingly been getting me down and which has driven several friends away from regular festival attendance is the killjoy overcontrolling, consumerist attitude. It strikes me that if you have an expectation of reasonable behaviour then on the whole that's what you get, from dog owners or everyone else.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 03:48 PM

Robbie

I can only assume you have not read the thread fully. There are stories of dog fights at Shrewsbury, in the beer tent at Towersey, a miscarriage, and three children being bitten. Apart from that - no significant problems.

They didn't allow dogs at the festival I went to in Canada because that is the accepted norm there as far as I can gather. Earlier in this thread Open Mike says they are not allowed into events in the USA. They are not allowed into Cambridge Festival.

I would like it to be the norm here, but to be fair I have offered an alternative whereby dog owners could take their dogs to festivals.

No-one has disagreed with any of those things I have proposed. (That suggestion might help your original query Sandra - though I don't know the layout of Shrewsbury so I do not know if it is practical or not).

I am simply trying to ensure that no more children get bitten or dog fights take place in beer tents etc etc.....Do we all not want that?

No-one has yet put up a convincing argument why they want to take a dog to a festival, nor have they explained what the dog gets out of it. (Apart from the fact it is cheaper than leaving them behind of course).

Fred. You leave your large dog alone in your car for two to two and a half hours. Some people would never dream of leaving their dogs in cars unattended for any amount of time.

But then they don't get drooled over I suppose.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 05:03 PM

Sigh...this thread is enough to make a dog take to drink!

First of all...

"...I spent half the weekend wondering where they were all 'toileting' to be honst, and the fact is that even if you clean up after a dog, the residue (yuck) is still there and dog mess can cause blindness in children..."

What a shame to waste your time thinking about such an odd thing. ???

Secondly....please don't give me the scaremongering 'dogs will make your children go blind' routine.

Here's why.

I'm one of the very small amount of people who have actually had Toxicara. I had it 30 years back, when I was around 19 years old. I was lucky, I told my Dad that I felt 'dazzled' in my right eye, he was an optician and within the day I was being seen by his Ophthalmic doctor who tested his patients eyes. Within hours I was in Neasden Eye Hospital. I remained there for 4 weeks, not because I was ill, but because they didn't have a clue what I had..and so every day they did a myriad of tests on me. They'd isolated the infection immediately, with steriods..so I was safe.

However, during my stay, I was in the children's ward. Each night I'd sit with little James, teaching him how to remove his new false eye, then put it back in again..He'd watch me take my contact lenses in and out, then he had a go with his 'shell', the clear prosthesis he had to begin with, following his operation,before his new beautiful 'eye' was made for him..He'd lost his right eye when a game of bows and arrows, with his best friend, had gone horribly wrong...James was such a plucky little man.

On the other side of me, lay Tony, another little sweetheart. He was not allowed to move, not even to eat, because he'd run into a cupboard door, and his eye was haemorrhaging, terribly...I spent ages sitting on his bed, reading to him, feeding him. There were many other children who came into that ward, over those weeks...with terrible things wrong with their eyes.

And there was the young man they brought in one night, late...just when I'd got all the kids off to sleep. He'd been watching ice-hockey, at Wembley. The puck had been hit with such force that it had somehow broken through the safety barrier they had around the rink..smacked straight into his glass lensed spectacles...and yes...another eye gone.

So what are you going to do? Ban sport? Ban children playing? Ban furniture? LIFE is dangerous, things happen, we cannot live in plastic, nor wrap our children up in plastic either, no matter how much we may want to.

I lost part of the vision in my right eye, but soon learnt to accomodate for it. I didn't blame dogs for that, nor cats..not even houseflies...It simply happened. It's 'life'

Back in those days, dog poo wasn't cleared up and people didn't bother to worm their dogs very often, yet *still* I was in hospital for FOUR weeks, because what I had was SO rare!

Toxicara was of course, in later times, latched onto by the Anti-Dog Brigade...and people were made to feel that just sitting on the grass could damage their children. Dogs started to be banned from many places. They went from being Man's Best Friend, to one of his greatest enemies, apparently just waiting to slobber some vicious disease over him...or send his children blind.

It sickened me.

The incidences of Toxicara have not risen much, if at all, these past decades, according to the RNIB. But the scaremongering has never stopped.

These days, the vast majority of people worm their dogs, there is far more education around..and huge posters in vets rooms depict the most grizzly of 'buddies' that your furry friend may have..and which you can dispose of for a mere...££££££££'s. (insert your own vastly greedy vetinary fee)

Most dogs will lay down their life for you. They adore you, they ask nothing of you, save food and water, and in return they give you nothing but love. It is up to you to ensure they are safe and loved in return. Do not leave them in cars for even 15/30 minutes these days, else in the summer, they will be dead on your return. Baked.

Think of their sensitive ears, before you take them near live music, with speakers blaring out. Your dog will hear it far louder than you do. Don't leave them in hot sunshine, whilst you walk idly around, they want shade, water and peace...Teach your children that not all dogs may like them, so they have to ask first...first the owner, then the dog.

I took my dog, Tigger, to Abbotsbury once, to Show of Hands Family Day, as Abbotsbury is set in many, many acres of beautiful gardens. For the most part, I stayed away from the crowds, as Tigger doesn't do crowds very well, but..he did sit quietly during Phil and Steve's set, (on the outskirts of the crowd) until Steve sang 'Longdog'....and he got to that part where he whistles, then shouts "Here boy!"...and that was just too much for Tigger...He smiled and woofed his head off, answering Steve right on cue..Heck, he even made it into the compere's routine after that... :0) Everyone around us laughed heartily...and Tigs just grinned goofily at everyone, wagged his tail hard and woofed a little more.

I won't take him again though, to any festival...because it was stressful for him. He's a rescue dog, and finds loads of people worrying. He never went off his lead, and was beside me the whole time..and whilst he enjoyed his day, he was very glad to get back to the car.

I very rarely go to festivals, because of Tigger. I won't put him into kennels, he couldn't cope with it, and I know he can't cope with big festivals, so..I choose Tigs, above the festivals, much as I'd love to go to so very many.

Dogs have always been our friends. I have always had them in my life, cats too, as have my children. You'll find bad ones amongst them, just as you do in our own species...but no dog is as arrogant as some humans are..and few would ever want to ban humans, no matter how dirty or smelly they may consider those humans to be.

We are a strange species.

At Sidmouth, it is not the dogs who leave the mess on the beach. It is not the dogs who leave the mess in the parks. It is not the dogs who drink too much, or get rude and mouthy.

We have a great deal to learn, from dogs.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 05:22 PM

meanwhile,people are being murdered and raped in Zimbabwe,Tibet is still under chinese rule,the spanish government are paying to repatriate immigrant workers[wheres WalkaboutVerse].
Doggone,arent there a few more important things than this.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,Australian dog owner
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 06:19 PM

I love my dog.

I love going to festivals.

Here the majority of festivals, like most organised public events, are "no dog" happenings. The consensus here seems to be that the irresponsible minority make so much of an impact that the responsible majority suffer. With the increasingly litigious nature of modern society, insurance premiums have gone through the roof, and it only takes one person to sue for a child (or themselves) being bitten to mean that the next year the organising body can't afford their premium and so the event doesn't go on.

That said, I wouldn't take my dog to a festival anyway, as I go there to enjoy myself, and don't need to spend my time worrying about whether some idiot is going to tread on her feet or scare her stupid falling over on or near her, or whether someone's badly-behaved brat is going to torment her (I'm not against children either, having raised 4 myself, but let's face it there are children and there are little horrors).

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Thompson
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 06:46 PM

Lizzie Cornish has closed the argument with her very sensible post. There's surely no more to be said.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 07:08 PM

I agree with the last two posters.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 02:44 AM

As a dog owner, I can't understand why anyone would want to take dogs along with them. If I go anywhere I make provisions for my dogs to be taken care of whilst I'm away and if I can't do that, I don't go away...simple.

Another problem is there are a minority of dog owners that don't care for their dogs as they should and that gives the good dog owners a bad name and topics like this are made up as a result of that.

Some people like dogs and some don't and this needs to be understood by all.

There is enough talk of dogs been banned and restrictions put on dogs and their owners as it is without trouble being stirred up like this.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 03:51 AM

"avocado dip with whipstaff. I think you'll find it normal in some places."

You're probably thinking of guacamole, which goes very nicely with a chihuahua or two.


"Of course he gets his own dinner when we get back"

Tried that with my dog, Fred, but he always burns it. Who said dogs are intelligent?

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 04:15 AM

Stick to avocado dip - it doesn't need cooking and dogs love it. That's why it goes so well with whipstaff.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 04:53 AM

Lizzie,

Congratulations on a totally common sense thread. While I agree with almost everything you've said, there's a couple of issues I'd like to take issue with.

>Most dogs will lay down their life for you. They adore you, they ask nothing of you, save food and water, and in return they give you nothing but love. It is up to you to ensure they are safe and loved in return.<

I agree totally. I personally have had far more bother from great gamin crowds of anti-social adolescents than I ever got from dogs. Compared to a certain humans I have had the mispleasure of knowing, dogs are magic - and well behaved.

>Do not leave them in cars for even 15/30 minutes these days, else in the summer, they will be dead on your return. Baked.<

No. Dogs are perfectly ok in cars, provided there's plenty of room and adequate ventilation. I know. I've checked this point with the RSPCA and the police. The latter informed me that they have adequate powers to deal with situations where dogs are liable to suffer in cars, and they're prepared to use them. Personally, I'm a bit lumbered. I adopted Ben from the RSPCA, who thoroughly vet their dog adoption applicants incidentally, before I was left on my own. Unfortunately circumstances change as circumstances will and, having been left alone, I now take him with me wherever I can. If that means he has to sit in the car for an hour or two, well at least he's enjoyed the journey. And at least I can slip out and make sure he's ok and take him the odd treat and a quick walkies if there's an interval. And I always leave a bowl of water for him on the floor of the car.

But of course don't leave your dog in the car under any circumstances on a hot sunny day for any length of time.

>Think of their sensitive ears, before you take them near live music, with speakers blaring out.<

This needs to be decided on individual merits. Some dogs don't take to music, it's true. I can only say that loud music has never ever bothered Ben. Once he realised that Thursday was the night when we went to my local jazz session, he'd sit in the hall next to his lead wagging his tail in anticipation. He wouldn't have done that if the noise bothered him.

>I won't take him again though, to any festival...because it was stressful for him.<

Absolutely. I'm probably very lucky in that my dog is totally laid back over just about everything.

>whilst he enjoyed his day, he was very glad to get back to the car.<

I took Ben to a festival recently. About 9 pm I figured he must be ready for bed and took him back to the caravan. Didn't want to know. Wanted to get back to the festival where all the fun was.

>I won't put him into kennels, he couldn't cope with it<

I won't put Ben into kennels either and have had to cancel quite a few events where it would have been impractical to take him. He was in the RSPCA kennels for quite long enough after his previous family dumped him. I wouldn't want him thinking that he was about to be dumped all over again.

>Dogs have always been our friends.<

Absolutely. In their natural state dogs don't kill for any reason other than for food. Of course now they've been domesticated it's sometimes a different story, but that's hardly the dog's fault. I never heard of dogs starting wars, or exploiting third world poverty, or depleting the earth's natural resources, or causing climate change, or causing one minsicule fraction of the pollution that humans cause. And yes, there is a problem of dog fouling, or rather there is a problem of dog owners who let it happen. But when did you last see a dog spitting on the pavement or vomitting up vast gallons of lager in the street on a Saturday night? When did you last see a dog committing acts of vandalism or grafitti? And do you know what? I've never yet come across a dog that was a football hooligan.

One final thing before I close this overly long exegesis. Some of the attitudes expressed on this thread have been totally abhorrent to me, not just as a dog owner, but as a human being who has to share this planet with all manner of racists and bigots. Problem. Some dogs cause a nuisance. Solution. Ban all dogs. Doesn't that remind you of the attitudes some people have towards travellers and Black people and gays and members of the Jewish faith and quite a few other disadvantaged minorities?

And if it does, then thank God that some of us are sufficiently enlightened to realise that Blacks, Jews, Gays and Travellers are sensate emotive beings, and deserve to be treated as such. And if we can understand that, then pehaps we can understand that dogs and all other animals are sensate emotive beings also.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 04:57 AM

Fred. You leave your large dog alone in your car for two to two and a half hours. Some people would never dream of leaving their dogs in cars unattended for any amount of time.

Sorry Dave. Wrong again. I've been around dogs all my life and I think I understand their wants and needs rather better than you do.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 05:00 AM

Anyone wanting more information on dog friendly pubs might want to check this link out.

Best Dog Friendly Pubs

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: melodeonboy
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 05:11 AM

"Lizzie Cornish has closed the argument with her very sensible post."

Indeed!

Blimey, what's happening? Has a new era dawned? I find myself agreeing with Lizzie Cornish! And I'm not the only one.

I'm off for a cold shower!

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 05:21 AM

Solution. Ban all dogs. Doesn't that remind you of the attitudes some people have towards travellers and Black people and gays and members of the Jewish faith and quite a few other disadvantaged minorities?

And if it does, then thank God that some of us are sufficiently enlightened to realise that Blacks, Jews, Gays and Travellers are sensate emotive beings, and deserve to be treated as such. And if we can understand that, then pehaps we can understand that dogs and all other animals are sensate emotive beings also.

As someone who could possibly be characterised as anti-dog - though as I made plain I am not anti-all dogs, that is a horlicks of an argument Fred.

Some dogs have caused a nuisance at festivals by biting children, fighting in beer tents and in one case causing a miscarriage. Solution - stop dogs going to festivals, where many (as some dog owners have said) get confused, worried and as we know bite people. Or as I suggested, making a separate dog lovers area and charging accordingly).

That is all people are saying. NOT a blanket ban on dogs.

People have attested they are banned from such events in the USA - I was in Canada this year and they seemed to be banned from the Ottawa Festival and they are banned from Cambridge Festival. The world of dogs has not come to an end. (Though EVERY dog owner I saw in Canada had gloves and a bag to pick up their dog shit and I never ever saw a stray. Responsible dog ownership you might call it and I wish it were that good where I live).

So in answer to your question Fred, wanting to ban dogs at folk festivals does not remind me of racists and bigots at all and I strongly object to being characterised as one.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 05:29 AM

Fred you are right I know little about dogs in that sense.

I didn't say it was wrong to leave dogs in cars. I said some dog lovers say that. I cannot attest to whether they are right or wrong.

Since we know that dogs bite children at festivals and they have fights in beer tents and in one case were responsible for a miscarriage - what is your solution to the "dogs at festivals" argument? Clearly you believe they should be allowed in. So what do you do?

Let them carry on biting and fighting - or only allow responsible dog-owners who look after their dogs into festivals?

And how will the organisers be able to distinguish them from the other sort when they are booking tickets?

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: romany man
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 05:30 AM

Well done lizze now can we drop it and start somthing new, i no we wont but hey enough is enough surely,

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 05:39 AM

Aunt Sally, Fred. There are not too many people saying "ban all dogs." Not me, not Dave as far as I can see. Most dog owners can't understand why some people don't like dogs. We just want a bit more consideration, that's all.   Keep your dog under control (a big ask for an awful lot of owners), keep it quiet, keep it away from other people who demur (I never, ever want anyone's dog to race round my feet or jump up at me or my kids, as were) and pick up the shit. That should be perfectly acceptable.   Otherwise, don't bring it.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 05:42 AM

"Since we know that dogs bite children at festivals". What? Every single last one of them? Sounds like a bad case of tarring everything with the same brush to me. See my observations about racism, anti-semitism, homophobia etc in my reply to Lizzie Cornish.

"So what do you do?" I keep my dog on a lead under proper control.

Following your logic. Since we know that cars kill people (what every single one of them?), shouldn't we be deciding whether we ban cars before or after they cause an accident? And shouldn't we be deciding whether to ban cars of their owners.

Then there's all the parents who fail to bring up their children properly. but that's another story.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 06:08 AM

The liberation of animals is the task of the animals themselves.

Oh yes, and animals do have rights. The right to be cooked properly springs to mind...

Yours in struggle against doggism (for are we not all dogs?).

Spleen Cringe

DOWN with the neo-felinist forces of doggist reaction!
DOWN with the bourgeois deviationist pooper-scooper facists!
FIGHT for the RIGHT to drop one anywhere!
DEATH to the yellow bellied CANINIST lackeys and lapdogs!
Lapdogs have rights too!

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 06:10 AM

Most of the problems in the world are caused by people. Maybe we should ban them.

Goodbye cruel world!

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 06:35 AM

Fred, yes, I too was meaning hot sunny days. I wasn't having a go at you at all. With global warming it's treacherous these days. On cool days though, it's fine, always in shade just in case that sun gets out though, for even in winter it's hotter than it once was.

"..Some dogs have caused a nuisance at festivals by biting children, fighting in beer tents and in one case causing a miscarriage. Solution - stop dogs going to festivals, where many (as some dog owners have said) get confused, worried and as we know bite people. Or as I suggested, making a separate dog lovers area and charging accordingly)..."


I have lost two little 'souls' inbetween my living children. Whilst no-one can be absolutely sure what causes a miscarriage, I firmly believe that it happens for a reason, that reason being that nature took control of a situation that was never meant to be, for reasons beyond our knowledge.

Women are tough critters, so are healthy foetuses. We can put up with many things during pregnancy, as can our little unborn souls. However, if something is very wrong, then often, a sudden shock can hasten what may well have been due to happen anyway. Very often though, those that are left with unanswered questions as to why it happened, perhaps seek the wrong answers.

I have nothing but sympathy for any woman who has lost a child, be it before their child's birth or after. The pain, to us as women, is very similar, as is the grieving for the child we never got to hold. They are never forgotten.

I would very much hope that now, the constant, and for me at least, upsetting, inference that dogs can cause miscarriages, which is being perpetuated by one person, could be dropped.

With all due respect and sympathy to the lady concerned, way back in this thread.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 07:20 AM

Fred McCormick

Some dogs cause a nuisance. Solution. Ban all dogs. Doesn't that remind you of the attitudes some people have towards travellers and Black people and gays and members of the Jewish faith and quite a few other disadvantaged minorities?

No it doesn't. Dogs are dogs. Blacks, Jews, Gays and Travellers are human beings. Despite what some people on this list seem to think, there is a difference.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 07:34 AM

Lizzie The post at:

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Scooby Doo - PM
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 12:07 PM

refers to the miscarriage. I don't know whether the dog biting the child was the cause of the miscarriage. I do know that the person who wrote that says it was and that was good enough for me.

Fred

"Since we know that dogs bite children at festivals". What? Every single last one of them? Sounds like a bad case of tarring everything with the same brush to me.

Is there a chance that the scientists at CERN could make a Large Hadron Bullshit Detector do you think?

Children have been bitten by dogs at festivals. I would like to stop that. You putting your dog on a lead will stop one dog - possibly - though one of the dogs that bit me was on a lead.

Dogs have fights in festival tents. You putting your dog on a lead may stop that, I have no idea.

We know these things happen - and to blame irresponsible dog owners is taken as read, we all know the cause - but the question is how do you stop it?

I have suggested two solutions.

One is to ban dogs - and you clearly do not favour that though there is loads of evidence that it happens elsewhere (without people being accused of bigotry) and clearly it would get rid of any problems.

The other solution is to have a special dog lovers area where they can camp and do doggy things together. Small extra charge.

I suggested some perfectly reasonable rules for that area - insurance, no dogs left unattended, all dogshit to be wiped up, etc.

Your solution for the festival organiser faced with stopping a dog biting children at festivals and stopping is...................???????

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 07:36 AM

I think we should ban Snails,they eat my green garden vegetables,they crawl up my door,leaving their slimy trails,I even found one inside my piano,they deposit themseves in my driveway and try to trip me up at night time.
they are very inconsiderate crustacae.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 07:37 AM

stopping "it" of course......

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 07:38 AM

Careful Dick - banning snails is one thing - you'll be wanting to ban children next.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 07:41 AM

Sorry Dave. Go back and read some of your earlier sentiments; "No thanks, and not at festivals. Why on earth you would want to bring a dog to a folk festival?"

If that doesn't indicate support for a blanket ban at all festivals, I don't know what does. Do you no longer stand by this sentiment? And if you don't are you going to stand by your present attitude? Or should we ignore that too?


"Some dogs have caused a nuisance at festivals by biting children, fighting in beer tents and in one case causing a miscarriage. Solution - stop dogs going to festivals, where many (as some dog owners have said) get confused, worried and as we know bite people. Or as I suggested, making a separate dog lovers area and charging accordingly).

That is all people are saying. NOT a blanket ban on dogs."

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 07:43 AM

Your solution for the festival organiser faced with stopping a dog biting children at festivals and stopping is...................???????

That does not make sense, it should have read:

"Your solution for the festival organiser faced with stopping a dog biting children at festivals and stopping dog fights is.......???????"

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 07:44 AM

Snail. "No it doesn't. Dogs are dogs. Blacks, Jews, Gays and Travellers are human beings. Despite what some people on this list seem to think, there is a difference."

Correct. Does that stop them feeling pain and distress? I know a dog who hates being parted from his owner - mine. That is why I take him with me whenever I can and why I'm opposed to dogs being banned at festivals.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Scooby Doo
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 07:57 AM

lIZZIE,
I went into shock and lost the baby at 15 weeks.The dog that bit my son was actually owned by a vet and was a rescued dog.My husband and i did not go to have the dog put down because we are not like that.I have all so kept my opinion to myself about dogs at festivals,but if anybody wants my opinion they can "pm" me.

Scooby

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 08:07 AM

Do people take their dogs into the shops and supermarkets? Unless they have different shops and supermarkets in Liverpool to the ones in Sheffield then the answer is no because they have a blanket ban on dogs in supermarkets except assistance dogs. Tesco and Morrison's and ASDA and Sainsbury's all racists and bigots are they?

Ever visited anyone in hospital Fred? Allow you to take your dog in did they? All racists and bigots in hospitals are they?

Would you take your dog to a jazz or folk concert in the Philharmonic Hall? No, because there is a blanket ban on dogs except assistance dogs.

You leave your dog in the car when you go to your jazz club. Why? Because the dog is barred. People who own the premises racists and bigots are they Fred? Surprised you go through the door.

So let's stop the bullshit and look for a solution to the problem of dogs in festivals.

I have made two suggestions. A blanket ban on dogs at festival and a separate area for dog lovers.

So far you have offered to keep your dog on a lead.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 08:10 AM

"..Dogs are dogs. Blacks, Jews, Gays and Travellers are human beings. Despite what some people on this list seem to think, there is a difference. "


Dogs are part of this world, in exactly the same way that humans are. We are no better, and no less...and the sooner we rid ourselves of our arrogant attitude of "We are the No. 1 Species' we ain't going to get very far. We've already wiped out huge amounts of other species, because they didn't fit in with us, or because we needed their 'homes' and 'food' to keep us happy.

Dave, if you feel festivals are now becoming such dangerous places, simply because dogs attend them, then close the festivals down.

After all, a child is probably at far great risk of being stung by a bee or a wasp...and how do you know they're not going to be fatally allergic to those stings? Maybe we should also ensure that all trees are cut down, just in case one falls down..or a child swings on a branch and falls off.

Before I had Tigger, I went to more than a few festivals, some of whom allowed dogs in, but at no time did I see a long queue by the First Aid Tent, of people and children dripping with blood from dog bites..nor were there any dogs having arguments in the beer tents over who stole whose pint either..I realise that I obviously went to the wrong festivals, but...come on.

Most people are sensible! The cross-section of life in a festival is pretty much the same as is outside the festival. So when you've banned dogs from ALL festivals, are you then going to start on parks, fields, beaches ALL year round..

Hell, my dogs had the most superb time on beaches, once upon a long time ago, but now, there are very few 'dog friendly' beaches around...because of selfish humans who want this world run to their way and their way only, and that way does not include animals...

Well, I'm sorry, but I regard myself as PART of this ol' world...not above it all. Some dogs are a bloody nuisance, I'm not denying it, but so are some people.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 08:17 AM

Dave, if you feel festivals are now becoming such dangerous places, simply because dogs attend them, then close the festivals down.

Or find a solution to the danger.

Is closing the festivals down your answer - or would you prefer to keep the festivals open as they are with dog fights in beer tents and dogs biting children.

Apart from Fred whose preferred solution is to put his dog on a lead do you have a solution or do you just want children to carry on being bitten occasionally?

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 08:22 AM

Fred, I have expressed no opinion about banning dogs at festivals. You have equated the rights of dogs with the rights of disadvantaged human minorities. I find that disturbing.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 08:26 AM

Captain, if you're going to be a speciesist bigot, at least try and get you facts right.

Mollusc
Crustacean

Anyway, if a snail crawls into your tent it's just showing it likes you.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 08:35 AM

Anyway, if a snail crawls into your tent it's just showing it likes you.

Could be lust.......:-)

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Mad Spaniel
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 08:36 AM

i have a relatively normal spaniel, loves kids (but can't eat a whole one), lively, funny and a loyal friend.

Can i say that, every minute of every day, he is a saint. No
I try to maintain my pack- kids, dog and cat with as much discipline as needed but he is still a DOG, the kids are still small humans and the cat is still an enigma.

You can't make the dog behave as a human and those that expect them to are irresponsible.

I have been bitten a dog in a social situation but only after it had been spooked by fireworks and i had tried to catch the poor thing.

You may well know (and love) your dog but why put it in a situation with that many people can you gaurantee the behavior of those around you?

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: mandotim
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 09:13 AM

First off, a declaration of interest; I have two terriers, bred to work (i.e. chase and kill things). They are generally very well behaved and obedient and both have attended obedience classes and have won awards. I don't trust their instincts in some situations, especially when there is something to chase. Therefore, I don't take them to festivals. (I did once, and when a morris dancer dropped a stick, Olly the Jack Russell thought we were playing 'fetch the stick'! Getting him to give it back was tricky...)

There are lots of dogs at most festivals I attend, and the majority are well behaved and friendly. Some owners are irresponsible and allow their dogs to run around not under control, and I condemn this as much as anyone.

The problem I have is that banning, or even segregating dogs leads to something that is becoming an increasing problem in todays world. We are becoming overprotective to the point where some basic freedoms are under threat, and certain aspects of life are demonised as a result. For example; the furore over 'hoodies' has led to a hysterical condemnation of 'the youth of today' in many quarters, despite strong evidence to suggest that most young people are moral, responsible and well-behaved. So it seems to be with dogs. The actual risk of harm from dog attacks or dog-transmitted disease is miniscule (despite the occurrences documented here) compared to that from poor diet, smoking, alcohol, drugs or motoring. Yet many of us indulge in some or all of these activities without calling for action to prevent risk, or even modifying our own behaviour much. The reason; we feel the risk, though known, is either acceptable or expedient.

The key here is the level of risk; it's very, very low, and certainly doesn't justify the knee-jerk reaction of bans or segregation. It is manifestly unfair to punish the responsible owners and well behaved dogs because of the actions of a few people who don't know how to control and train their dogs. Deal harshly with the irresponsible owners by all means.

Some people are afraid of dogs in general. I was, until I owned one. I was bitten as a child, and for many years worried whenever dogs were around. A kind relative helped me over this by showing me how to behave when dogs were around, and introducing me gently to her many dogs. She showed me how a fear of dogs actually increases the risk, as the dog senses a less dominant individual and the pack discipline mentality means that the dog asserts itself more.

Dogs are a fact of life; no-one is going to ban them from our society, so the rational approach seems to be to adapt to that situation, rather than persisting in trying to adapt the world to one's own particular views. Assess the risk, and take proportionate, targeted and reasonable action. Anyone who has a dog that bites someone should have the dog confiscated and be banned sine die from keeping a dog. NO ifs, no buts, no maybes. A dog license should be reintroduced, and there should be a test of fitness/competence before an owner is permitted to own a dog. Such a license should be subject to review and revocation, exactly as a driving license is. As for dog shit; no excuse for not picking it up and disposing of it hygienically.
Tim

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 09:19 AM

Fine sentiments Tim.

How does a festival organiser distinguish between the responsible owner and the irresponsible owner when they book and how do you answer the point that once the damage is done it is too late barring the irresponsible dog owner?

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 09:34 AM

Enough already.
Some People Like Dogs.
Some People Don't.
I don't care, one way or the other.
Bring 'em all on, Ferrets, Voles, Aardvarks, Camels, Cheetahs, Slugs.
As Long as they can tune a guitar and sing a Ballad, It's all fine by me. Poo or No Poo (Sorry, bit of a Noel Edmunds moment there!)

Latest addition to the Dog Festival

CaperCollie

Seriously, there are no winners on this one.
Let's just let it go.

Ralphie (Owned a Hamster as a child, but, No Dog!)

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 09:38 AM

in this country Ireland ,we have to pay for dog licence.
now dogs can only be banned from festivals in enclosed spaces,so at festivals like chippenham and whitby,that is not practical.
I also understood that cetain breeds of dogs had to be muzzled in the uk.,
if dog owners were banned from certain festivals,they would still go to festivals like Chippenham ,Whitby,etc.
Oh and are guide dogs exempt?how is a blind person supposed to use a pooper scoop,isnt this unfair on blind people.
no the idea of banning dogs[at enclosed festivals] is fraught with problems, and not enforceable at fesativals lk ike whitby,much better to have a rule stating clearly that dogs must be on a lead at all times, that certain breeds must be muzzled.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Scooby Doo
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 09:46 AM

If dog licenses were brought back into this country you would find many dogs on the street as stray.
Scooby

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 10:06 AM

Maybe if dogs were made to wear the following rather fetching folk dog coats everyone would be happy...

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 10:09 AM

Altan Hound

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: mandotim
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 10:16 AM

Folkiedave;I'm not trying to convince you, from your comments, your mind is made up. However, I'm sure you realise that there are more ways of identifying irresponsible owners other than waiting until the dog bites someone, just as it is possible to identify bad drivers before they crash or cause an accident. As with most issues like this, the sequence generally goes; quiet word, stern warning, action of some sort. The intention is always that a quiet word will solve the problem. Festival organisers have a responsibility to make sure that stewards and other staff are aware of the expected standards and are given power to act if they see those standards being breached. There should also be a means for stewards to pass an issue to someone in authority (usually the festival director) if they feel the situation exceeds their authority or competence. This happens already with drunks and yobs, so why not with irresponsible dog owners?
Regards
Tim

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 10:20 AM

"Maybe if dogs were made to wear the following rather fetching folk dog coats everyone would be happy..."

I think a nice Aran sweater would be more appropriate

http://www.swellpets.co.uk/pet-info/jumpers-for-dogs.html

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,not a dog owner
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 10:25 AM

"How does a festival organiser distinguish between the responsible owner and the irresponsible owner when they book and how do you answer the point that once the damage is done it is too late barring the irresponsible dog owner? "

Simple answer Dave - of course they can't. So yes, you are still allowing the risk of something bad happening.

In exactly the same way, when letting people drive their cars onto the site, festival organisers can't distinguish between the responsible driver and the irresponsible driver. So by allowing on all drivers they are allowing the risk of something bad happening.

The point I, and several others, have been trying to make, and which I haven't seen any reply from you on, is why the potential risk of a dog attack, however horrific, is somehow worse, or should be legislated for in a different way, than other risks? Is having your child attacked by a dog somehow worse than having your child run over?

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,not a dog owner
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 10:31 AM

I hereby apologise unreservedly for the appalling grammer or lack thereof in my previous paragraph...

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,not a dog owner
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 10:57 AM

*winces*

grammar

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 11:15 AM

"...How does a festival organiser distinguish between the responsible owner and the irresponsible owner when they book and how do you answer the point that once the damage is done it is too late barring the irresponsible dog owner?.."

Tell me, Dave, how does a festival organiser distinguish between the responsible human and the irresponsible human, when they book tickets and answer the point, that once the damage is done it is too late barring the irresponsible human beings?

I will give you Monica Seles, the then young Wimbledon Tennis Player, stabbed in the shoulder, during a match, by someone from the audience...

Or little Maddy, still missing, after just going on holiday with her Mum and Dad.

How do you know that every human being you allow through those gates is not going to harm either a child, or another adult, Dave?

Answer: You don't.

Paedeophiles cause far more risk to our children than dogs. Maybe you should take this up with festival organisers, because hell, they love to hang around places where children are...

And you know what..a family dog would take on a paedeophile any day. Anyone who tried to harm his 'pack' would be treated with the utmost suspicion and aggression, so there you go...

Most Dogs Protect, Dave.

Another way of thinking, for you.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 11:26 AM

At all the festivals I have been to where cars are allowed on site - then there are indeed special precautions for vehicles - the most obvious one being a speed restriction. At the Ottawa festival a chain of stewards directed people to parking so that no pedestrians came anywhere near cars. Vehicles for disabled people had special arrangements.

All the festival sites where I have been have had restrictions on cars. No-one as far as I am aware, has been injured by an irresponsible car-driver ON A FESTIVAL SITE.

So we do make restrictions. Thinking of the children's play areas I know at closed festivals, they are usually well away from an possibility of car accidents.

Of course we cannot legislate for all eventualities. I am not saying that.

But we can EASILY stop dogs biting children and having fights etc etc on closed festival sites. And I have suggested two ways in which it can done.

Clearly for some reason you prefer to take a chance on it happening again.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 11:45 AM

Tim,

it works like that with humans - it does not work like that with dogs and their irresponsible owners. The dog that bit my daughter was on a lead and sitting quietly. She was playing with some friends not especially near the dog. She was four.

There are dog-owners who have posted on here who do not take their dogs to festivals.

There are festivals that ban dogs.

I really don't see why segregation of a dog from non-dog-owners AT A CLOSED FESTIVAL is such a big issue with dog owners. They are used to restrictions where their dogs cannot go - this would just be another one.

To Lizzie

You don't know whether humans are going to harm a child Lizzie. But we do know place restrictions on people who work with them. And I don't know about you but I warned my kids about contact with adults. (I also warned them about contact with dogs - but it didn't do any good - see above).

You don't know a dog will not harm a child - so all I want to do is place restrictions on them. Similar to the ones that stop (for example) people taking dogs into hospitals.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 11:56 AM

Leveller sez: I think a nice Aran sweater would be more appropriate

http://www.swellpets.co.uk/pet-info/jumpers-for-dogs.html

Bugger the dogs, I want one for myself!

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,not a dog owner
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 12:02 PM

Lots of festivals, festival campsites, and especially those where camp site and the rest of the festival kind of merge together, have children and vehicles in close proximity. I personally know of one acquaintance injured by a vehicle at a festival. I don't know anybody personally (outside of this thread I mean) who has been hurt by a dog at a festival. That's just anecdotal evidence though, too small a sample to say anything much useful from.

I don't *want* anybody to be hurt by a dog any more than I want them to be run over. My suggested solution, which you don't seem to think sufficient, is to have a 'dogs on leads at all times' rule (possibly with restrictions on length of lead), and to have areas where dogs aren't allowed to go. I'd also adopt Tim's emminently sensible suggestions about guidelines for dog owners and stewards etc, which could easily lead to some of the irresponsible owners that you are worried about being removed before anything untoward happened. I concede that therefore *some* risk still exists, but would argue that it is reduced - and that even before putting those things in place the initial risk is pretty low already.

I'd rather Shrewsbury and other festivals didn't choose to go down the 'we must ban them all' route. Agreed it would be an easy way to stop anybody being hurt by a dog, in that setting. But it would also be a large restriction on the enjoyment of people like me who enjoy other people's dogs being at festivals, and the dog owners themselves. For me, the price paid by that option is disproportionate to the size of the risk.

Your 'have a totally separate area where dogs are allowed' solution might work fine on some festival sites, less fine on others, depending on the site. If specifically talking about Shrewsbury I can't quite imagine how it would work there, but I wouldn't rule it out.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 01:53 PM

I have no idea whether it is suitable for Shrewsbury. Sandra may have an idea.

I can envisage all sorts of practical difficulties with your suggestion - which is litle different to mine of having a segragated area.

You would clearly stop them going into crowded bars I would suggest, and you would bar them from venues and the children's area. I don't want to camp next to dogs and I know a lot of people who don't, so you would need a separate camping area. You would need to bar them from areas where people like me go who have no desire to meet strangers' dogs. Unless you insist on imposing your love of taking a dog to a folk festival on other people.

So having a segregated area seems to me to be a most practical solution. In a segregated area dogs could roam free. I thought that would suit dog-owners. Do they really want their dogs on a lead all day long? And if you want to go to talk to other people's dogs then you would know where to go. There would be loads of them there together and you would be able to choose from a selection instead of just relying on a chance meeting.

But in the same way that you want to go around meeting other people's dogs I want them to stay away from me. I go to festivals for folk music - not dogs.

Why not start up a dog lover's folk festival?

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 02:57 PM

"To Lizzie

You don't know whether humans are going to harm a child Lizzie. But we do know place restrictions on people who work with them. And I don't know about you but I warned my kids about contact with adults. (I also warned them about contact with dogs - but it didn't do any good - see above).

You don't know a dog will not harm a child - so all I want to do is place restrictions on them. Similar to the ones that stop (for example) people taking dogs into hospitals."


The restrictions don't work, Dave, in so many cases. And besides, not all dodgy people are known about. My point is that you cannot make life 100% safe. I am fair fed up of living in a 'restricted' world, where one restriction leads to another, then another, then another.

As a species, we have seemingly lost the plot, if you ask me.

Good Heavens, my cat, Wilby scratched me, a few years back, he shoved his claws deep into my nose, then pulled...all the way down, right before the first Sidmouth Folk Week too. It was agony and I still have the scar. But did I start up a campaign to get ALL cats banned from households 'just in case' ? Nope. I gave the little b*gger a severe talking to, spent an age each morning trying to hide the mess he'd made of my nose, and have never let him near my face again. End of story. It's life, it happens.

And then...there was the cormorant I tried to rescue one day, from the shallow waves of Bigbury on Sea..he had oil on him...and I was determined to help...Little devil chewed another part of my nose...but hell, he only did it because he was terrified..I left the waves, with blood trickling down..and rang the RSPCA, which is of course what I should have done in the first place..but nope..I didn't demand that all sea birds should be banned from places I like to visit, just realised I'd been a total twit..and got on with my life.

ALL festivals should state that dogs are allowed in *only* if they are on a lead, and a suitable one, at that, not these 3 mile ones that trip people up and give you no control over the dog. They should also state that any dog causing problems, on campsites or in the festival itself, will have to leave, immediately, along with its owner. This can be reinforced by the stewards on the gates. HOWEVER, they should ALSO state that dogs are allowed at the festival, and therefore would humans please take the trouble to treat them with respect and kindness.

And as far as I'm aware, dogs have never been allowed into hospitals, other than guide dogs, hearing dogs, and dogs that are there to give people nothing but love..to heal them, bring them happiness and make them feel better...

Therapy Dogs - or whatever you want to call them...

Oh..and by the way, you're far more at risk in hospital of becoming infected with MRSA, than you are from picking anything up from a dog, be he in the hospital, or outside it.

And that really is my final woof in this thread.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,Bonzo
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 03:04 PM

Personally I'd prefer it if they made temporary arrangements for me, rather than forcing me to put up with that all hideous racket. I also happen to find drunks intensely irritating too, they tend to be rather clumsy and over-familiar. Some of them admittedly wear silly garish clothes and seem to be equipped with warning-bells, so they aren't so much of a problem - although they particularly are best avoided, as the temptation to bite borders on irresistible. The kids don't really enjoy it either, much for the same reasons. No, I'd rather be at home in front of the fire. Woodstock wasn't all it was cracked up to be y'know..

Regards,

Bonzo

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 03:15 PM

Almost my last woof.

Bonzo, you're not *the* Bonzo, are you? Doo-Dah...Doo-Dah

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,Bonzo
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 03:18 PM

No, but I've got a dark brown overcoat.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: folk1e
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 03:58 PM

"Lots of disadvantages here, and NO advantages, for festival-goers who do not have a dog (and for those who are considerate enough to leave their dog at home)." ..............(Sharon A)

Well lets see ..... remove all the dog owners from festivals and you increase your ticket price. I class low(sic)ticket prices as an advantage, also the friendliness of the responsible dog owning fraternity!

Folkiedave .......... I don't expect you to get this but ....
It is all about the level of danger and the risk of that danger actually ocuring! If dog bites were always fatal the slight risk that somebody would get bitten would be outweighed by the danger of being bitten! If dogs had rubber teeth and never caused harm (by biting) the risk of a dogbite would not be considered serious.
The consequence of being run over by a car is severe but the chances are low of it occurring ...... that is why you do not ban cars!

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,Bonzo
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 04:04 PM

Cars are banned in pedestrian areas. I have to use a lamp-post. I don't much like the idea of rubber teeth either.

Bonzo

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 04:21 PM

Well lets see ..... remove all the dog owners from festivals and you increase your ticket price. I class low(sic)ticket prices as an advantage, also the friendliness of the responsible dog owning fraternity!

All this has already been dealt with ad nauseam.......

Go back and read the thread. Your points are not new.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: folk1e
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 04:23 PM

If dogs had rubber teeth

Bit of a stretchable point.

You wern't part of the Doodah band were you?

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: folk1e
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 04:28 PM

Cross posted there

Just pointing out one or two advantages to somebody who could not see them!
Ad Nausium et all!

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,Bonzo
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 04:42 PM

What if humans had rubber legs? How would you like that? What am I saying?
I'm off to listen to some decent music, I expect you to be able to guess what.

Regards

Bonzo

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 04:54 PM

Incidentally, there were actually no dogs in the Bonzo Dog Band, it was just the name of the band.

Regards,

Bonzo

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,Bonzo
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 04:55 PM

Sorry, that was me - lack of sleep.

Bonzo

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 06:13 PM

Hi Lizzie

I had to rescue an oiled cormorant from the beach near Bude a couple of years ago. Carrying it a mile up to the vets in town was the most dangerous thing I've ever done. I came to the conclusion that cormorants should be banned from damp beach towels in flimsy cardboard boxes.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,Chaz
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 06:49 PM

I vaguely remember a dog savaging a cat at a festival in Wheaton Aston, Staffordshire and it was still on the lead at the time. So dogs can still act naturally even if attached to the owner.

CB

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,Bonzo
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 07:15 PM

That was a cat?? It wasn't my fault, I'd had beer and drugs. Now, banning cats - that's a sensible idea. You never see a cat with rubber teeth, I can tell you.

Regards,

Bonzo

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,not a dog owner
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 07:29 AM

"I can envisage all sorts of practical difficulties with your suggestion - .... Unless you insist on imposing your love of taking a dog to a folk festival on other people. "

Agreed it's for Sandra & her committee to make the call on what is suitable at Shrewsbury. Any suggestion has practical difficulties, yours, mine, anybody else's.

However, I'm trying to make a separation here between taking action to prevent/minimise risk of actual injury, and taking action to prevent irritation - I see them as very different. Lots of things that other people do at festivals annoy me but I'm not suggesting banning them, cause I think within reason we should all just be tolerant of what other people like to do, whether that is bringing our dogs, children, cars, or singing painfully out of tune.

You seem in some of your posts to be saying that action should be taken to prevent anybody being injured (fair enough) and mixing that up with things that should be done so that those who don't want to even see/hear a dog at a festival can do so if they wish. That's the bit I have issue with - because I might decide I don't want to see or hear an annoyingly loud drunk person at a festival but I see that essentially as my problem, to be dealt with on a case by case basis by common sense guidelines and a bit of thoughtfulness and tolerance all round, not something that should be legislated against by the festival.

I disagree that my 'some restricted areas' suggestion and your 'totally segragated area' suggestion amount to the same thing. I'd only restrict them from any area where, if they are on a short-ish lead, people cannot keep out of their physical reach if they so choose, plus specific kids areas. So, probably would ban from crowded bars and venues, probably wouldn't ban from open green bits of the site (including camp site) or large non-crowded venues. That is way less restriction than you seem to feel is necessary.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,Sandra
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 10:11 AM

latest message on the SFF blog:

Thank goodness most owners cleared up after their dogs, but some certainly didn't - I saw one wheelchair in a disgusting state and the poor user having her hands washed after going straight through a huge pile. On balance I think you should ban dogs!

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: 1LizzieCornish
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 05:59 AM

That must have been highly unpleasant for the lady concerned, however, it would have been equally unpleasant had she driven her wheelchair through a huge pile of vomit, and yup, I've seen more than a few of those at festivals..and outside festivals too.

So, I guess we have to ban the humans too, 'just in case'......




(Sorry for name change...I think my 'cookies' have lost their chocolate chips) :0)

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,Bonzo
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 02:36 PM

"So, I guess we have to ban the humans too, 'just in case'......"

And just be left with some morris dancers in a field?

Regards,

Bonzo

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: oggie
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 05:19 PM

"Well lets see ..... remove all the dog owners from festivals and you increase your ticket price. I class low(sic)ticket prices as an advantage, also the friendliness of the responsible dog owning fraternity!"

I do not believe that you can support that statement. Very few of us who have dogs take them to festivals, for a wide variety of reasons. Can any Festival organiser here tell us that they take into account the effect of dog owners on their festival?

Out of interest, what do any of the "can't be parted from my dog brigade" do if they want to go on a foreign holiday?

Steve

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: folk1e
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 06:50 PM

1 If dogs are (potentially) to be banned the assumption is that people are taking their dogs, and paying for tickets!

2 Don't go abroad!

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 07:22 PM

How about cows at the opera?
Pigs at the theatre?
Chickens at the cinema?

Yo, animal lovers! Bring it on...

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 07:36 PM

I only want to see pigs at the theatre if they're wearing lipstick.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Mrs Banjiman
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 07:06 AM

Whew! It's just taken me half an hour to read this thread...hats off to Liz Cornish for some sensible comments.

I am a dog owner. I am a responsible dog owner too...I ALWAYS clean up after him, including wiping the grass with tissues if needed. I would always keep him on the lead in areas where there are lots of people or other animals, etc.

Generally I have not taken him to festivals because quite honestly with two young children and musical instruments to carry, my hubbie and I just don't have enough hands! I have taken him for a day event and he was well-behaved, met some other dogs and loved meeting new people and being fussed by children. I know that not everyone likes dogs and I am sensitive to this and will always try to gauge a person's reaction before I let him go anywhere near - dog lovers are easy to spot, as are people who are nervous of them.

It is all about common sense and responsibility!

I do not think there should be a blanket ban at Festivals, but some festivals are more suitable than others. Greenfield events lend themselves to dogs more so than those in lots of small pubs in towns, for example, as it is often possible to hear the music but still be outside the marquees. Perhaps dog-friendly events should charge a small ticket fee for dogs. This would encourage people to stop and think about taking their dog in the first place. The money could go towards an animal charity or a children's charity, say? (Or to fund some poop bins and bags so that owners have NO excuses!)

Re - people treading in dog muck or wee....let's get some perspective here! I find it just as disgusting that some festivals expect us to pay to camp in fields that have obviously had livestock in them until only days before and finding a tent pitch that doesn't have a pile of drying cow/sheep mess on it is a challenge!

Okay - I'm off my soap box now.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 09:56 AM

Quote: "I ALWAYS clean up after him, including wiping the grass with tissues if needed."

Excellent! Allow me to shake your hand!


....No, no, the other one...

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 10:27 AM

I'll stop being frivolous long enough to say I quite like dogs, me. I don't particularly want them banned from anywhere - not for the sake of the dogs themselves or their owners (and I do tend to slightly prefer dogs to their owners as a rule) but because I get fed up with this risk averse, nannying society, where every last thing has to be assessed, legislated for and regulated to death. As a mental health practitioner, I can assure you that try as you might, you can't ever make all risk go away. Neither is it necessarily desirable to.

Meanwhile, can I just remind some of the dog lovers out there, particularly Fred, that no matter how much you love your dog, it's not a person? To compare restricting where dogs can go to Second World War nazi atrocities is, frankly, verging on the crass and offensive.

Mrs B, above, has it about right, though wiping the grass with loo roll may be just a little too responsible!

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 07:07 PM

This is not about making all risk go away. It is about getting that very strange breed of people, dog owners, to accept that their charges are not welcomed by everyone in spite of their "don't worry, he's only playing!" mentality. The risks presented by dogs are very preventable. I write as someone who has spent a happy time this very day wheedling dogshit out of the tread of my shoe with a matchstick. Fortunately, I spotted it before entering the house. If you think that my annoyance at this has anything to do with advocacy of a nannying, risk-averse society, you clearly ought to have the odd adventure out of mental health practice every now and again and swot up on communicable diseases a bit more. Quite an eye-opener, I think you'll find. Unless your eye is infected with Toxicara, of course.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 07:36 PM

Just remind me how common toxicara is?

So how do we deal with dogs to your satisfaction without imposing bans and restrictions (and in the process strengthening the hand of those who would advocate for the risk averse, nannying society)? Surely better to put up with the slight risk of dog-related ill health and the greater risk of dog-related nuisance than the massive risk in throwing our hard-won freedoms away on(relative)trivia?

Professionally, meanwhile, I'll leave physical health to them as likes that sort of thing... yeulch!

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 08:19 PM

I have posted a number of times to this thread and not advocated bans. The way to deal with dogs "to my satisfaction" is to get dog-owners to behave themselves. The vast majority cannot control their dogs and pick up the shit only when they think someone is looking. We need some rules maybe, and a shift in attitude like the one we've achieved with drink-driving. All dogs in public places should be on a lead. Loose dogs should be caught and put down. We need dog licences that cost good money (to cover the cost of dog wardens and cleaning up after dogs) and which you should be only be able to obtain once you've put your dog (and yourself) through a training course (which will certainly not be funded by the taxpayer). If your dog bites someone or causes an accident you should pay a heavy fine and the dog should be put down, no questions asked. If you're caught letting your dog shit in public and fail to clean it up your dog should be confiscated. All dog owners taking their dogs out in public should be required to have cleaning materials and disposal bags with them by law. This should be checkable by dog wardens or the police.   All dogs in cars should be restrained by gates that prevents them getting access to the driver.

Dogs can be trained to behave, and we should expect respect for those who dislike dogs. There is no excuse for your dog disturbing people by barking or jumping up or charging around anyone's feet, and there should be no dogshit in public places, ever.

As for the rarity of Toxocara, well OK (sorry about the earlier misspelling), but what about all those lovely E. coli and Salmonella organisms that are so easily spread from dogshit by flies and which are present in each and every dogturd you ever see?

Anything nannying and unreasonable in that lot, please let me know.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 05:32 AM

"but what about all those lovely E. coli and Salmonella organisms that are so easily spread from dogshit by flies and which are present in each and every dogturd you ever see?"

The countryside is still a pretty public place. Where I live I see a lot more cow poo and sheep poo around than dog poo, and there are certainly a lot of flies on it. Better start putting down all the sheep and cows. Not to mention the badger and foxes. After all, they carry loads of disease, and they're just roaming free, pooing wherever they like.

The dog defenders on this thread have only ever advocated responsible dog ownership - which means, to me, keeping your dog on a lead unless it is absolutely under control - if a dog does not come back immediately when called, it is NOT under control. And cleaning up after it. And making sure that someone wants to interact with your dog before you allow that to happen. As a dog owner whose dog is never off the lead, I also get pissed off with the "It's all right, he's only playing!" as a strange dog comes bounding over to mine. My dog was bred as a working terrier, and she might do yours a serious injury - and I tell the owners this. She's fantastic with people, but not so much with other animals - one of the reasons she's never off the lead. If an out-of-control dog insists on "playing" with her, it might get a nasty surprise.

Yesterday in my village, I watched some (supervised) dogs on the green outside the pub happily playing together and doing no one any harm and causing no nuisance. The only nuisance was from a little kid of about four who was running around screaming his head off (his dad was inside the pub drinking).

To be honest, bad parenting is a much bigger nuisance, and causes a lot more problems for society, than bad dog ownership (though as I've said earlier, the same sorts of people tend to be responsible for both). Your responses come across as ever-so-slightly OTT and obsessive, Steve. Maybe you need to get things in perspective a little.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 05:43 AM

wheedling dogshit out of the tread of my shoe with a matchstick

Surely an argument for banning shoes with unneccessarily complicated treads? If you can't prize the shit out with your dinner knife, something's wrong with your shoes...

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 01:54 PM

Cow, sheep, bird and all other widlife poo is an essential part of the recycling of organic matter. Dogs are filthy non-native carnivores, here in their millions, which produce faeces laden with disease organisms all over the place in areas inhabited by people, unlike most wildlife. I really don't know why these things need to be explained. All dogs should always be on leads. Dogs on leads, especially small ones, are sitting ducks for loose dogs who come bounding over out of control.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 02:04 PM

Pigs are also omnivores.
[Cow, sheep, bird and all other widlife poo is an essential part of the recycling of organic matter.]quote SteveShaw
well,I dont think anyone feels like that when a seagull shits on your head.
unfortunately not all cows and sheep are allowed to be herbivores,that was part of the cause of c.j d.[mad cow disease]the feeding of Offal to cows and sheep.,which makes their shit no worse than Dogs,in fact some Dogs are fed vegetarian food.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Banjiman
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 02:13 PM

I'm sure SS must be on the wind up here...... no one could really get so up tight about something so un-important.

At the end of the day festival organisers will make up their own minds about allowing dogs or not.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 03:39 PM

Well let's ban seagulls then, Dick, old chap! Only I get this uncomfortable feeling that they were here long before our badly-run towns, cities and refuse dumps were even a twinkle in the eye of Fred Flintstone. And the should-be benign relationship between humans and pigs/cows/sheep has been severely compromised by some dodgy farming practices of course.   Not the poor beasts' fault, and I ain't aiming to become veggie anytime soon. No wind-up Banji old chap, but probably time for a wind-down. I have chunes to learn.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 05:59 PM

Just got back from Bromyard.

I only saw a few dogs and one dog fight. The fight was soon under control. Shame it happened at all.

I saw a number of dogs under the control of quite young people. Certainly if any specific rules were made about dogs a minimum age ought to be mentioned.

I admit that I never saw any dog crapping anywhere - though with the mud it would be hard to have been able to tell the difference. BUT - none of the dog owners seemed to have any kind of poop scoop with them.

And perhaps someone could tell me why a dog has a large plastic cone around its neck.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Scooby Doo
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 06:07 PM

The cone is to stop the dog scratching its head/ears.


Scooby

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 07:13 PM

The cones are crude acoustic loudspeakers devised by the dogs' awful owners to make their barks sound even louder. They are the dog-owners' equivalent of those loud rasping exhausts that 18-year-olds have fitted on their Peugeot 106s to go with their multispeaker bass-only sound systems which only work with the windows wound down. Big dog, big cone, big bass, small willy sort of thing.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 07:29 PM

Steve: have you thought about anger management?

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 08:53 PM

No, but I've often considered courses in tosser avoidance. Lamentably, my decision to avoid such courses has clearly not paid off. :-(

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,Bonzo
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 10:03 PM

Chloroform's good.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 10:23 PM

To link to the the Humphrey Littleton thread...

Question How many legs have dogs?
Answer   No legs have dogs....

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 02:39 AM

"No, but I've often considered courses in tosser avoidance."

Motes and cinders, mate...

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:20 AM

Tosser avoidance. Sometimes dogs need to be operated on. Sometimes the operation has to be carried out in the region of the neck or the head. After such an operation, the dog usually needs to be fitted with a cone to stop it from scratching and thus opening the wound.

Like I said. Tosser avoidance.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:35 AM

Sorry. Early in the morning. Still only on my 2nd cup of coffee. Cones are also fitted where the dog has been operated on on other parts of the body, to stop it biting the wound open.

Incidentally, before anyone questions the ethical use of cones, I've had to put a cone on two of my dogs. It didn't bother either of them in the slightest.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:56 AM

I wonder if the "take-your-dog-to-a-festival" fans - are in agreement that dogs should not be allowed into venues. And if so why?

What makes the dog so different one side of the tent from the other?

And thanks for answering the question about the cone. It makes a perfect sense now. The dog has had an operation so as part of the recuperation process it gets taken to a folk festival.

That makes sense.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Blowzabella
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:03 AM

Most dog owners don't carry plastic 'poop scoops' - they carry small plastic bags (often bio-degradeable) designed for the purpose

And, on the subject of man's relationship with dogs - one theory is that it is in no small way because of our long-standing association with canines that Man was able to develop speech and, thereby presumably, song. Apparently, in our cranial cavity, there is only space for us to have either the structures to enable us to make complex sounds OR the structures to enable us to have brilliant sense of smell. In evolutionary terms, because we had a close relationship with dogs, who came with a brilliant sense of smell, we utilised that and this in some way influenced our own evolution and meant that we were able to have a much more complex range of sounds available to us. So .... no dogs ... no folk festivals.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:08 AM

Dave, throughout this entire thread you have continued to show the most appalling ignorance of dogs, to the point where I honestly don't think you are qualified to contribute. You have twisted and distorted everything I have said and as far as I can see, everything that everybody else has said. For your information, dogs recover from operations far more quickly than humans. They are up and about far more quickly than humans, but the wounds still take time to heal. Taking a dog to a festival has nothing to do with the recuperative process.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:26 AM

Hey, Blowzabella, thanks for that insight! It's great to know that, if we own a dog, we'll have with us at all times an expert on what other dogs' arses smell like. ;-)

And calm down a bit, Fred old chap. I do know what the cones are really for, you know. I was just trying to be funny, that's all. You appear to have been blessed with an "American" sense of humour. ;-)

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: theleveller
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:56 AM

Never mind about dogs; what about wasps? Wasps are a real pest at festivals – they should definitely be banned. I mean, what IS the point of wasps? And don't tell me they're Ok as long as they're on leads – have you ever tried putting a lead on a wasp?

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:10 AM

Wasps...Don't get me started!
Once had a mouthful of wasp with my pint at a festival.
Never had a mouthful of dog though.
(Lets not go there, you smutty lot!)

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Blowzabella
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:18 AM

"It's great to know that, if we own a dog, we'll have with us at all times an expert on what other dogs' arses smell like. ;-)"

The point was that they knew what deer / hare (or whatever the local food source was) smelt like and thus were an invaluable tool in helping Man find food. They also knew what the more dangerous animals smelt like and could warn of their approach. When Man began to farm, they helped guard the flocks. etc etc

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:25 AM

Excellent beasts, Blowza. It's just that at festivals I can find my own food by the smell of the hot-dog caravan, I don't necessarily need protecting from sabre-toothed tigers and I'll probably have left my flock of sheep at home - a convenience thing you understand.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:27 AM

Hmmm. Wonder if dogs could be trained in quality control to steer you away at festivals from duff acts and people you don't want to see. Useful, possibly.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:31 AM

Should have added that I saw a busker yesterday in Islington with a ginger cat wrapped round his neck. It looked pleased when people threw money but fierce when people asked (frequently) whether he was glued on. Now THAT'S quality control over punters.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:43 AM

Sorry Dave. When did your name become Steve?

Anyway, while I'm no expert on human evolution, I suspect that Blowzabella has got hold it slightly wrong. My understanding is that serious changes to the world's climate forced our tree dwelling primate ancestors to become plains dwellers, thereby forcing them to compete with animals who were much bigger and faster and more powerful than they.

As a result, primates, who were already considerably smarter than most other animals, became even smarter. In effect they survived by banding together and developing complicated stratagems for hunting, for protection against other animals, and for sharing out the spoils of the hunt.

Thus it was that humanity developed what are far and away the most complex forms of social organisation in the animal world. Complex forms of social organisation call for unusually large brain sizes, and that is precisely what we've got.

Nevertheless, early primate hunting methods must have been pretty crude and pretty ineffective, consisting of sneaking up on a prey and battering it to death with clubs; always assuming the prey doesn't get up and fight back or run off. So early man must have been forced to spend most of the waking day on a never ending quest for easy meat.

As far as I know, none of the primate species developed much of a sense of smell, since most of them are vegetation eaters, and what few carnivores exist among the tree dwelling primates capture their quarry by sheer mass action. Therefore, they did not need a sense of smell when they dwelt in the trees. Nor would the hunting tactics which they adopted when they settled on the plains have called for one.

However, mankind is extremely good at adapting its environment and using things which other animals possess to its advantage. Therefore, while humans were sneaking predators, rather than chasing predators, the advantages of forming alliances with dogs must have been pretty obvious. Dogs can run further and faster than we can can. They can smell their quarry from a considerable distance, and their long distance sight is much better than ours. What's more, they can be trained to bring the quarry back to the rest of the pack.

in other words, humans became much more more effective hunters as a result of dog domestication. That in turn left us with a redundancy of brain capacity. That is because, where our thought processes were previously bound up with hunting, we now had time and space to think about other matters. Hence, our ability to philosophise and to express ourselves through music, language, art etc. And hence the capacity of some of the lower forms of human life to indulge in cheap sarcasm.

So overall, yes. Our symbiotic relationship with dogs probably played an important in human progress. It is in no small measure because of the domestication of the dog that I can enjoy music and read poetry and watch drama and muse on the wonders of nature. Thanks dogs.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:45 AM

Wasps are incredibly useful creatures earlier in the season, consuming large numbers of nuisance insects, and their nests are of course things of beauty. It's just those redundant workers later in the summer, once the nest work had been done, that cause the trouble. It's idle hands doing the devil's work. They even get drunk feeding on fermenting fruit - an amusing sight. Most of the time they're just exploiting the damage already started by birds. Cut 'em a bit of slack - they hardly ever sting and they're gorgeous to look at close up.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:50 AM

Like I said. Lower forms of human life and sarcasm.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:57 AM

All very neat, Fred, but I fear the truth is probably far more prosaic. The relationship started when wild carnivores, including doggie relations, started to hang around human dwellings feeding on the discarded remains of animal carcasses. The animals had better teeth than humans for stripping the last remnants of meat from the bone. The humans would have tolerated this as it kept the hungry animals from getting too close and it also cleared away remains which could otherwise have festered and caused disease.   Today, we see scavenging dogs and foxes in an entirely different light, but in those times there were no weekly collections, tin cans or plastic dustbins. The point is that the humans were already useful hunters, making up in guile what they lacked in pace.   The kind of small prey that dogs could catch would not have been of much interest to the humans. Few birds were available for dogs to catch (no guns huh?) and there were no rabbits (and probably no hares) as these were introduced much later.

And dogs have pretty rotten eyesight.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 07:00 AM

And there's absolutely no need to get rude and insulting.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 07:06 AM

There's a hedgehog that keeps stealing my cat's food.
Should he be banned, or charged an entrance fee to my kitchen?
Or perhaps to form a band to include every musician that ever set foot in the North East?
Or else provide another songwriting opportunity for Mike Heron?

Answers on small postcards.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 07:06 AM

Dogs have extremely good long distance sight. and a pack of dogs is very good at bringing down a large quarry.

"And there's absolutely no need to get rude and insulting."

Indeed. Why do you do it?

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 07:17 AM

I don't go around calling people with whom I happen to disagree "lower forms of human life," or suggest they need anger management psychology. Funny people, some of these doggie lovers!   Now I think it best if you and I confine ourselves to talking to people other than each other, Fred old chap. Naturally, I await with pleasure your final volley.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Midchuck
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 07:22 AM

Minor correction:

Dogs can run further and faster than we can can.

Dogs can definitely run faster than we can. Almost any four-legged animal can. Virtually nothing living can run, continuously, further - albeit relatively slowly - than a healthy human in proper shape. We've lost awareness of that fact because almost none of us are in proper shape.

That, as well as tool using, language, and (I would have said until the present Presidential campaign, abstract thought) are what allowed us to dominate the planet to the point where our survival is in danger.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: theleveller
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 07:38 AM

"There's a hedgehog that keeps stealing my cat's food.
Should he be banned"

Are you sure it's a 'he'? Even female hegehogs have pricks!

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 07:43 AM

Actually I think it's ok to have dogs at festivals so long as they don't bark at night. I try to remember to put a bowl of water under my trailer for the mutt so that it gets a drink as well as it's owner.

Sal

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 08:07 AM

they carry small plastic bags (often bio-degradeable) designed for the purpose So they either get the dog to shit in the small plastic bag or they were grovelling away in the mud to pick up the dogs' shit. Nice.

Fred this is not about dog knowledge, mine yours or anyone elses. It is about whether dogs should be allowed into festivals to crap on the grass, bark during the night and during performances, have dog fights and bite children. All of those things have been attested to in this thread.

I personally don't need to "know" about dogs to see their behaviour. My own experience of being bitten twice and sitting with my four year old daughter for the best part of a week whilst they had a series of anti-rabies injections (and worrying whether they had rabies or not and if the serum had arrived in time) told me most of what I need to know about dogs.

Two friends had a dog - they don't have it any longer because it bit their two year old child on the face and scarred her for life. Their own child Fred. Scarred for life. Nice, eh?

So when you have sat in a hospital for period of time with a screaming four year old having anti-rabies injections, and had a dog destroyed because it scarred your own two year old for life, come back and tell me you know all about dogs. Or perhaps your own experience doesn't extend that far?

Now back to dogs at festivals.

Be kind enough to say whether you think dogs should be allowed into venues and if not why not?

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Snuffy
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 08:50 AM

Trying to make my way through the mudbath of Bromyard on Saturday morning in preparation for a day of morris dancing in town, I was just congratulating myself for reaching the "safety" of the mud-free artificial roadway.

I was following a couple, each with a dog on a longish lead. As we reached the craft centre one of these dogs started squaring up to the previously mentioned cone dog. Giving them as wide a berth as possible without stepping off the roadway into the mud, you can imagine my delight when the non-combative dog took full advantage of the length of lead allowed him, and decided to show me how "friendly" he/she was by rearing up and dragging a pair of muddy paws all the way down each leg of my morris trousers.

Not the end of the world - no bloodshed, injury or disease, just a bit of ridding from fellow morris men. But it was a significant downer for me, and has certainly changed my attitude to dogs at festivals. Control of your dog must be absolute and constant - a second's inattention is all it takes to recuit more dog-haters.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,dog owner
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 08:52 AM

I think perhaps you have a different viewpoint to some other people Steve as you live in the States?
We do not have a problem with rabies in England, where the question for the thread originated from.

I personally would not take my young dog into a venue as he may disturb people.
I have seen many other dogs quietly lying by/under chairs causing no disturbance.

I also would not have a dog that would bite a child. I have dogs, I have children. My dogs can easily be separated in the house from the children, and my children are taught to behave responsibly around dogs.

I think, Steve, it's all a matter of responsibility, which of necessity is a personal issue, which possibly makes debates like this useless.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,dog owner
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 09:00 AM

I must apologise, I read Folkiedave's post as it was from Steve Shaw (maybe a similar tone) but sorry to Steve, I was answering Folkiedave's post.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 09:08 AM

I saw that Snuffy. Making my way to the toilets at the time.

I didn't see the dog scraping its paws down you though. Condolences. But it was probably only playing and he's never done that before anyway. Dog lovers will probably tell you it comes from their pre-domestication days. Inheritance. You can't stop it. Dogs do that. And as you say - no harm done. Learn to live with it.

After all they are almost human aren't they? Dogs I mean - not morris dancers.

Dave (Sheffield City Morris).

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 09:11 AM

Guest dog owner.

People do not have dogs that bite children. Do you seriously think that my friends thought they had a dog that would scar a child for life?

Well they don't now.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 09:14 AM

I'm still trying to work out who it is who lives in the States.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 09:15 AM

I personally would not take my young dog into a venue as he may disturb people.

So if you wouldn't take a dog into a venue since he may disturb people is it OK for the dog to disturb people outside the venue and if so how does the dog know the difference.

And I have seen dogs lying quietly under seats all over the place, not just at festivals. Well they lay quietly until some human trod on them.

Do you go to Cheltenham Festival? Do they allow dogs in their venues?

I suspect not.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 09:19 AM

Me too. I live in Sheffield.

And when my daughter was bitten in France the law hadn't changed at that time. So she had the anit-rabies jabs.

Of course it is a matter of personal responsibility. The problem is that by the time the dog has acted irresponsibly it is often too late.

As in "ohhhh he's never done that before".

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 09:25 AM

Apropos of doggie eyesight, just google "dog eyesight" and you'll get abundant links all of which will confirm that dogs's eyesight is very compromised compared to that of humans.   When you read a detailed post and find one serious inaccuracy of this sort you do have to wonder about the reliability of the rest of the post.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Proogle
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 09:25 AM

OK there are waaaaayyy too many posts here for me to follow and if someone has pointed this out i salute you!

Dogs on Leads can still bite!!!

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 09:33 AM

"Even female hedgehogs have pricks!"


Q. What's the difference between a hedgehog and a Volvo estate?

A. With a hedgehog the pricks are on the outside...

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: theleveller
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 10:40 AM

That's an extremely Volvoist remark. (Now if you'd said a BMW.....)

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 10:52 AM

"Apropos of doggie eyesight, just google "dog eyesight" and you'll get abundant links all of which will confirm that dogs's eyesight is very compromised compared to that of humans.   When you read a detailed post and find one serious inaccuracy of this sort you do have to wonder about the reliability of the rest of the post."

Steve. Here's the low down on dog's eyesight. It is true that dogs cannot see very well close up. Also, they see almost in monochrome, or at any rate cannot distinguish colours easily. The point I was getting at is that dog's eyes are very good for long distance hunting, not for close up work. That is because they have a much wider angle of vision than we have and they tend towards lateral vision where ours is binocular. That enables them to see prey over a greater angular range than we can. What's more they are longsighted. That means they can also see prey at a much greater distance than we can.

Think about it. It's logical. When a prey is a long way off, even a highly developed sense of scent would not be much use in locating that prey. But a dog whose eyes have evolved to allow it to see a prey when it's a long way off, can use its sense of smell when it gets close enough to smell it.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:03 AM

Longsighted doesn't mean you can see a long way. It means you can't focus on things close up. It's the wrong description here. Human eyes, given good health or a decent pair of specs, are just as capable of focusing to infinity as a dog's or a pair of binoculars or the Hubble telescope. Like our eyes, and unlike the bins or telescope, they can't magnify. They lack the acuity of vision of human eyes as the macula is absent. Of course, their eyesight in adapted to hunting in tandem with their other senses, but their eyes are not superior to ours in any way, and are inferior in some respects. Poor colour vision, poor acuity...they're just good for the job in hand. That job does not include shitting all over the place and biting kids in festivals, etc.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,not a dog owner
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:29 AM

oops, hit the wrong key there.

was almost going to ask Dave what he thought of the suggestion I made above lost in the mists of posts.. then decided not to bother since
a) he's already clearly made the suggestions he wants to make and doesn't seem that interested in mine and
b) I've almost lost the will to live.

was also thinking about re-iterating my point about the difference between actual risk of physical harm and annoyance, and why I think they are separate issues... but then see b) above...

oh well.

not sure where dog eyesight has to do with anything. also not sure why somebody thought Dave lives in the states, when he doesn't, but a misunderstanding methinks. easy done, no need to nitpick... ah, but it's mudcat!!

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 12:38 PM

Fred, you are still defending the existence of dogs as pets and giving us a detailed history of their development and eyesight and no doubt you have a detailed knowledge of the development of the bio-degradable dog shit bag. I am really not bothered.

I am bothered about people being having issues with dogs at festivals including them being bitten. You can of course ignore the question and hope it may go away.

I have made two practical suggestions: 1) to ban them completely as happens elsewhere and 2) to have a separate area where they and their owners can camp and do doggy things together. They can look after the dogs and make sure they don't crap where other festival goers go. Small charge for this facility. Say £10.00 per dog.

Both of these suggestions will stop the presence of dogs worrying those who do not wish their weekend spoiled by other people's love of dogs. To me they seem eminently reasonable suggestions with an eminently reasonable charge.

So far your solution has been to keep the dog on a lead. Well one of the dogs that bit me was on a lead, and the dogs at Bromyard referred to by me and Snuffy this weekend at Bromyard were on leads. As someone had pointed out dogs on leads can still bite.

Guest - not a dog owner.

I have been away at Bromyard and had not fully kept up with the thread for three days. Sorry about that. As to your suggestion..........

I assume you are saying practical restrictions (no dogs in bars or in venues, dogs on leads at all times etc etc).

I just want to extend that to camping (if we agree on keeping them out of venues then it is only an extension of that). It would have been hard to provide a doggy area at Bromyard - you would have needed one area for dog owners in caravans and another for dog owners in tents and motor homes etc.....BUT it would have been easy to say no dogs on the main festival site, stay in the fields (camping area).

Where camping is mixed; caravans, camping vans and tents all together - then it would be easy to provide a separate area.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,not a dog owner
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 10:11 AM

aagh wrong key again, have moved my keyboard and keep hitting enter by mistake... sorry...

"Both of these suggestions will stop the presence of dogs worrying those who do not wish their weekend spoiled by other people's love of dogs. To me they seem eminently reasonable suggestions with an eminently reasonable charge. "

to me they don't seem eminently reasonable because I think the risk of something bad happening is pretty small and you are suggesting placing a massive restriction on dog owners. Some of your objections to dogs seem to be down to annoyance factors rather than actual danger factors, and I don't think its fair to single out one group (dog owners) for annoying things, when you don't seem to want to place similar restrictions on other annoying things.

Your segregated areas suggestion sounds so restricted that actually anybody who took a dog to a festival with that set up may as well not be there - in which case you may as well go for your total ban option.

Fair enough to have some restrictions in place to try and minimise risks of actual injury, but I think I agree with others here who don't want to live in a risk free society. It sounds like you have been particularly unlucky with dog incidents in your past Dave - for which you have my sympathies. But in my own experience and that of my friends I have never come across a single incident at a festival like the ones you have described which does make me think that such things are thankfully pretty rare.

(Btw, dogs with muddy feet jumping up are not, to me, in the same category as being bitten. Mud is an annoyance to be sure. The b****rd who smeared coleslaw on my tent at a festival a few years back was a massive annoyance too. Ban coleslaw at festivals!!)

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Muffin
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 10:52 AM

Bromyard discussed this last year and implemented an "Assistance Dogs Only" policy in the venues.

This worked very well in the ceilidh tent. The policy being clearly signed also meant that even the owner of a dear broken-legged, recuperating puppy (aaaa!) appreciated why he was asked to remove the dog.

Not aware that ticket sales were affected!

More concerned about wild (not so young) children in increasing numbers nowadays at folk festivals! Perhaps we need a special roped off area for them...!

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Banjiman
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 11:11 AM

"More concerned about wild (not so young) children in increasing numbers nowadays at folk festivals! Perhaps we need a special roped off area for them...!"

Or keep them on leads........or maybe ban them completely? They are so noisy and disruptive!

....and peole with tattoos really bother me as well, I once (actually twice) got hit by someone with a tattoo.... therefore I come to the considered, rational opinion that there must be a signiificant risk of anyone with a tattoo hitting people. That is my experience so it must be right!!!

Paul

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 11:20 AM

400 - but I'm not coming back to this thread

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: strad
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:00 PM

Like some dogs - don't like some dogs - hate all midges..BAN THEM!!

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,baz parkes
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:28 PM

Dave...your comments on Bromyard reminded me it was actually the second festival I ever went to.

I had my 3 front teeth knocked put by some drunk wielding a wheel brace (not sure if he was tattooed Paul:-)). This didn't put me off festivals, especially Bromyard, or drunks or wheelbraces.

I think I know why I'm posting this,but...

Baz

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 01:45 PM

Massive restrictions on dog owners? There are already massive restrictions on dog owners - some of which dog owners ignore. I didn't go to the ceilidh tent at Bromyard so I can't comment but I certainly never saw a dog in the main marquee.

So dog owners accepted restrictions at Bromyard. They also don't take them into restaurants - except some places of course who don't see this as a problem - which is most restaurants as I am sure you are aware. I have never seen a dog in a cinema, theatre, supermarket or a hospital or classical music concert. Large numbers of hotels don't allow dogs and you have to keep them outside school gates.

So the idea that dog owners have some kind of freedom to act as they wish with their dogs without restriction and that asking them to leave them at home for a folk festival is some kind of big new deal is patent nonsense. As some dog owners on this thread have attested they would never dream of taking a dog to a festival.

I have yet to discover why a dog is a nuisance inside a tent and thus barred and not outside a tent.

And unfortunately Baz and you have my sympathy, it is impossible to bar drunks from folk festivals - much as it is to bar them from anywhere else. But it is possible (easily) to bar dogs.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Banjiman
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 02:22 PM

....but you could ban alcohol (as they do at a lot of Bluegrass festivals in the States I understand) as there is a risk that someone might drink too much and hurt someone!

A greater risk than a dog hurting someone I'd dare say.

Or we could just live and let live?

Paul

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 02:27 PM

I have not read the whole thread. I did read the first post. It toiok me awhile to condense my thgouhts, and I hope it's not too late to share a possibly-cogent thought.

My first reaction was, why don't campground rules cover this? At US campgrounds, there is no exception to the rule that dogs must be short-leashed whenever they are outside the RV, tent, or cabin. They can't be left unattended (tied out or in the campsite), either. Campground personnel can evict an owner who does not observe this, or any owner whose dog is not under control, or campers whose dogs bark excessively or violate the quiet-after-bedtime rules. I believe proof of rabies vaccination is required at registration.

Can't that just be Festival Policy and enforced by stewards?

~S~

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Scooby Doo
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 03:04 PM

Why should stewards do a dog enforcement notice.It should be the festival organiser like Sandra who started this thread.


Scooby.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Blowzabella
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 03:38 PM

Personally I find all drunks and most children much more of a nuisance than some dogs. I can't do html, so can't embolden any of my text but iff I say ALL drunks, MOST children, SOME dogs .... you get the general order of my own annoyances. Why should my annoyances be of any less import than ... say ... Dave's??

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: fiddler
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 05:06 PM

As a dog owner

No dogs no me

dog allowed - keep them under control

Clear upo after them if they disgrace you.

End of story

No controversy just plain logic and consideration for your folking buddies.

Is there really any other route.

Heavens mine spent a week backstage at the aham and everyone nejoyed h is company. I hope.

Andy

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,not a do owner
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 06:35 PM

sensible suggestion from Wysiwig there I thought.

Scooby - why shouldn't stewards enforce the rules for dog owners same as all other rules, whatever the festival decides they are? at most festivals it would be a stewards job to ask somebody to stop making noise in the middle of the night, for example. If somebody is such a nuisance that they are asked to leave the festival, it often does become an issue for festival directors to step in but warnings etc usually come from the stewards at first.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 07:02 PM

As a dog owner. No dogs no me

I think that is an attitude to be applauded.

Clearly the dog means more to you than the festival and that is your choice.

As far as children and their behaviour is concerned festivals do make special arrangements for them. At Bromyard for example it was Jan and Dr. Sunshine.

And I have never been bitten by a child (at a festival or elsewhere) I have been bitten by a dog, and the thread was started because of a dog biting a child at a festival. Of course children can be annoying - none more than my own two daughters when they went through the teen years. We tried hard to stop them annoying people, and then stopped taking them to festivals as soon as we could.

One became a festival organiser.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 07:11 PM

Over 400 posts.

Has this thread gone to the dogs?