BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?

Subject: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 08:24 PM

Hi, it would happen to me, wouldn't it... but my nice town has been invaded by a gang of out-of-town-based, really loud and supremely hell-fired evangelists, who come to the pedestrian mall where there's free music every friday and absolutely *harangue* the crown about SIN and how we're all going to HELL (pronounced HAIL) and how god HATES (me, my friends, etc) - I am quoting, they are really awful. Anyway, since all they talk about is hate (they never, ever mention their god's LOVE, oh no). So it's not like I could avoid them, that would take away Fridays After Five, no way jose. So. Since all they talk about is hate, can I get them banned on hate speech grounds? I mean, if someone stood there and said I HATE GAYS, wouldn't that be hate speech? So if they stand there and say God tells me to hate gays, really loudly and over and over again, very southern American preaching, with the REVEALED word of GOD in their hands...
Can't I make them either get ordained or find a church? The cops are always there because they draw a huge crowd of hecklers, not led by by certainly joined by me... any legal precedents anybody?   I've got the Internet research going... and a friend at lexisnexis... but y'all might want to chime in on the idea, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 09:00 PM

I'd say it would depend on the local statutes and ordinances as interpreted and applied by local officials!

Different States and localities have varying "Hate Speech" laws, and of course any law only has effect through the actions of public officers, and it could be that your local police chief/sheriff(etc) actually are either afraid of flexing their muscles in the interest of a strong Hate Speech law or even agree with the "sermon".

I don't think there is or could be any requirement that a preacher in public be theologically blessed or ordained in order to express his views in the public mall. And of course even if there were such a requirement it's easy enough to get some group to make you a preacher by their lights, and/or easy enough to get a "diploma" from some diploma mill by payment of a nominal fee.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: Lox
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 09:08 PM

Sounds like a nightmare. You have my sympathy.

Be comforted by the knowledge that hate speech ultimately just gives the speaker a headache. When you walk away you might wonder why they do it, but then your life takes over again.

The hate monger stews in a hell of their own making.

Leave them to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: jeffp
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 09:30 PM

You could always start preaching the gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Exhort everybody to be touched by His Noodly Appendage.

Subject: RE: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 09:37 PM

Sounds like that bunch from Kansas -- the Westboro Baptist Church crowd from Topeka, led by the inimitable Fred Phelps. I'll let you find their website yourself. These are the folks who picket funerals of those who died in Iraq or Afghanistan because fighting in these places means fighting for the USA, which is a faggot country and so they are glad the people are dead because that's one less person fighting for a faggot country.

They are deliberately confrontational, deliberately abusive, and completely unconnected with any Baptist Conference in the US.

The "Rolling Thunder" motorcyclists of the American Legion have been known to drown out their hate speech with their bikes and several States have passed laws about interference with funerals.

If they touch you, charge them with battery and be sure to claim that you felt very threatened by their action -- heck, charge them with sexual assault. Otherwise I'd look for a really loud heavy metal band to drown them out. Or better yet, suck on a red hard candy, something that will dye your spit blood red, and when they talk at you pretend you're deaf and then drool some bloody-looking spit out of the corner of your mouth.

What they are doing is not unConstitutional, but it is obnoxious and could easily get them busted in the nose. Of course, then they've been martyred....

Subject: RE: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 09:38 PM

Jeffp's got it in one.

Subject: RE: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: Lox
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 09:41 PM

Yes - I to am with JeffP ...

... only do it from a safe distance ...

Subject: RE: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 09:46 PM

Sounds like you've been touched by Reverend Wright.

Subject: RE: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 09:54 PM

Get a group together to sing "Song of the Starvation Army" over and over...and add a few tambourines and tubas.

Subject: RE: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 09:57 PM

If you can get enough people to complain, preferably to the City Council, you can get something done. This is a "pedestrian mall" and presumably for the use of ALL citizens -- there must be ordinances about creating a nuisance, disturbing the peace, blocking access, making too much noise, etc. Get about forty or fifty people in a City Council meeting to complain and see what happens...this is, after all, an election year....

Subject: RE: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 09:59 PM

There must be a more sinister way to deal with this, like putting up huge signs suggesting "SIN IS GIVING THESE PEOPLE MONEY!"

Subject: RE: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: olddude
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 10:10 PM

There was a group that would protest outside of funerals of our fallen soldiers with signs like your child is in hell ... horrible things like that.   What it took to stop them was a personal lawsuit for distress, get some people together, see if you have a small claims to start
in NY it costs 10 bucks

Subject: RE: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: olddude
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 10:13 PM

by the way I read that group that did that one mom was awarded several million, it shut them up ... she setup some foundation for fallen soldiers or something like that if I recall. I would get some names of the big guys and file a small claims if they are local for distress or something whatever you want... infringement of your right to peace who the heck knows ... you may or may not win but it will get the point

Subject: RE: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: Lox
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 10:14 PM

Or get some drums and bells and start singing Hare Krisna and dancing up and down the street.

When they start yelling hate, you just shout "Gouranga Gouranga."

Though it might sound to them like "your anger your anger."

Subject: RE: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: pdq
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 10:18 PM

I think you have no idea what "small claims court" is, oldude. No offence, my friend, but such a court is limited to $5000 (or less) cash settlements and nothing else. They are not allowed to be involved in behavior modification or anything else. Verdicts like "defendant owes plaintif $452" is all they are allowed to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: olddude
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 10:26 PM

didn't know, I did know they are limited to 5K I do know they have teeth and enforce the same as the big courts. But they do address damages, if you are damaged somehow I suppose. Point is well taken I would talk to the local judge anyway just to see, I know ever state has their own criteria. Couldn't hurt to ask.

Subject: RE: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: Lox
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 10:27 PM

I sometimes wonder if the mudcat isn't a small claims court of sorts ...

different sort of claims of course ...

Subject: RE: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: pdq
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 10:31 PM

Again, cash-only settlements. Judge may impose terms of payment.

I'm quite sure that a judge cannot even place a lien on property, although, most likely, your local Recorder will be willing to do so if given a notarised copy of the court decision.

Subject: RE: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 10:38 PM

Unfortunately they probably have a right to be there spewing as long as they don't get physical. Phelps and his ilk had to be allowed a space for protest at the funeral of Matthew Shephard in WY. They were contained in a small area which the cops set up for them. The caring crowds of people ignored them, some had signs of their own which they held up but would not engage in a screaming match with the bigots. Mother Nature really put a damper on it with a sudden influx of low-hanging, heavy snow clouds which let loose and ran them off. I would call the city or county attorney for starters or the state attorney general's office.

Subject: RE: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 11:24 PM

I agree with katlaughing but maybe with a direct approach to the city council. Even after concerned people (the local business owners, for instance) get the government interested, the group will probably be subject only to reasonable restrictions to prevent hate speech and harassment. And that's AFTER you or someone goes through all the trouble of documenting actual hate speech incidents or actual harassment, no matter what legal avenue you choose.

My kids' pediatrician is in a large building with mostly medical offices, but also with child care facilties. For the past FIFTEEN YEARS or so, a mostly silent group has set up in the entrance with HUGE photo-posters of aborted fetuses. Very graphic. Police protected them during counter-protests. Now they only come on Wednesdays and Saturdays. I don't know if that was part of a reasonable restriction order or not.

A (reasonable, peaceful) creative response may be the better way. (Local religious leaders?)

Subject: RE: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 11:29 PM

October 13 and it will be eight years since Matthew was murdered and we still have this kind of crap going on. *shaking head*

Subject: RE: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: Bee
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 09:43 AM

Around here, a case for disturbing the peace could likely be made. By 'pedestrian mall', do you mean a section of street which is offlimits to traffic and has stores, bars, businesses opening onto it, or is it something else? I would think if the business owners could complain that they were obstructing or otherwise interfering with the lawful carrying out of normal business - shopping, etc. - they could be ejected forthwith.

Subject: RE: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 07:06 PM

Yes, local merchants dislike them, but I doubt they've actually complained, that wouldn't be good PR in all likelihood...

ACLU? Should I try them?

Subject: RE: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: Peace
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 07:20 PM

Have you considered wearing a cross upside down and approaching them while speaking in tongues? If that doesn't work, just tell them you have a really infectious STI and would they please bless your reproductive organs.

Subject: RE: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: Genie
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 09:46 PM

What's said is that here in Portland (OR) - and probably in some other towns - there's an anti-busking ordinance that prohibits playing a musical instrument in the downtown area if it/you can be heard 50 ft. away.   Meanwhile, a loud-mouthed "preacher" can bellow with enough decibels to be heard 3 times that far, with impunity.

Yes, if there are complaints, the "disturbing the peace" or "creating a public nuisance" laws can be enforced against the vocal ranters, too.   And they probably should be against the loud busker too, if the music's drawing a crowd that blocks the sidewalk or interferes with local businesses.   But I don't think the content of the "speech" or the type of noisemaker (vocal, instrumental, poetic, prosaic) should be the criterion.

Subject: RE: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: pdq
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 10:10 PM

"But I don't think the content of the "speech" or the type of noisemaker (vocal, instrumental, poetic, prosaic) should be the criterion."

Basically, that is the essence of the First Amendment to the US Comstitution. It is called "freedom of speech", and if you want it, you must respect other people's right to have it too.

Subject: RE: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 10:12 PM

Get a couple friends and start counter-preaching in "tongues." It doesn't matter what gibberish you're spewing, just do it loudly and wave a Bible around.

Then quote 1 Corinthians 13:1-13:

1        Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2         And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3         And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
4         Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5         doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6         rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7         beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8         Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9         For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10         But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11         When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12         For now we see through a glass, darkly, but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13         And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Subject: RE: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: Genie
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 10:35 PM

Perzactly, pdq.

Subject: RE: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: Peace
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 10:38 PM

Have you considered faking a seizure or a heart attack?

Subject: RE: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: Genie
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 10:41 PM

I should perhaps expound - being a card-carrying "liberal" and all.

The concept of "hate crimes" concerns me, precisely because it verges on "thought crime."
Yes, if there is an organized effort to attack or suppress some group, that goes beyond the individual crimes. E.g., a lynching by the KKK has more far-reaching implications than does a garden-variety murder.   But there are other laws (conspiracy laws, racketeering laws, etc.) that can be brought into play in such cases.   It's absurd that if I spray paint my neighbors' house because they're gay and I'm homophobic it should be a more serious offense than if I had spray painted their house because their music is too loud at parties or their dog keeps me awake at night.   That's punishing the thought, not the crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: heric
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 10:51 PM

Have you considered faking a seizure or a heart attack?

There you go. This is the path of creativity that has a chance.

Subject: RE: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 03:40 PM

Um, why? To see if they could "heal" me?

Subject: RE: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: heric
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 03:55 PM

I'm guessing these people are virtually unembarrassable (nice word, eh?)

Finding a way to beat them at their own game would be such a joy. I don't know how you would pull it off exactly, but if it involved some kind of scene that threw them off balance, not with confrontation . . .   


(I still keep envisioning a Presbyterian or Methodist minister, somehow. Leading prayer sessions or something right next to them??)

Subject: RE: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 03:58 PM

Without hate where would you be now?

Subject: RE: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: frogprince
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:03 PM

You can't go abolishing that kind of hatefulness...




It would be the end of civilization as we know it!

Subject: RE: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:30 PM

I might make a big sign that had an arrow and said

" i believe
THESE PEOPLE WERE ALL FORMERLY GAY
but the old one still is"

If they touched me or the sign it would be video taped and battery assault charges would be filed.

Subject: RE: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:50 PM

Stand by them with a sign that says, "Potential Child Molesters".

You don't say that they ARE....

Subject: RE: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:55 PM

Complain to the city council and the chamber of commerce.

Subject: RE: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 10:40 PM

It is counterproductive to yell at them, or pull any of the silly pranks that it seems like they deserve. They are there to provoke a confrontation with a group of stereotypes that they carry around in their heads, and that plays into their hands.

The real and effective way to deal with them is to simply talk to them like they are real people, and show them that you are real people, too. It can bring the posing and posturing to a quick halt.

I have had occasion to work this little bit of magic on extremely hostile crowds--you just stand tall and take a " Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death.." attitude, and bingo! you've got them eating out of your hand. I've only had to run for cover a couple times;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:37 PM

I don't yell, but I point out contradictions, loudly.

We did have someone who stood in front of them and repeated everything they said, substituting "the hale-bopp comet" for "god" - which was pretty funny...

We have good one-on-one conversations but it's usually one of the plebes who tries to get me away from the shouter so that he (the shouters are always men) can keep preaching their bigotry while I am kept busy...

Subject: RE: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 04:05 PM

Offer them nice cold water bottles as a gift from a fellow patriot who admires people who go out and do God's work.

The ingredients are up to you.


Didn't the Hale Bopp Comet christian cult actually castrate themselves before commiting suicide?

Subject: RE: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 01:02 PM

ignore them unless they really get into your face. Then call the police. If that doesn't work,
institute a law suit against their organization and take it all the way.

According to the Constitution, you are protected under the First Amendment and this
is a legal recourse for you. The ACLU will be happy to consider your case if it goes that far.

Subject: RE: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: Wesley S
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 01:11 PM

If they were ignored they would go away. They want an audience. Don't give it to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 07:18 PM

They already HAVE the audience. My duty lies in not allowing them (the evangenitals) to be taken for anything other than a floor show. Once I got there late and people were really paying attention... that was the time we got so numerous that the cops had to tell them to move for blocking the public way.

Subject: RE: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 08:40 PM

I have it. You need a professional mime.

Subject: RE: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: Bert
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 12:36 AM

How about singing a few satirical songs about them?

Subject: RE: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 12:42 AM

Reminds me of the guy in the South (likely not a true story) who beat his opponent by letting the town folk know that his opponent was a latent heterosexual.

Subject: RE: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 12:43 AM

You could put up signs that say, "God loves you, even if you are full of hate." Or, "Love the hate, not the hater." *being sarcastic there*

Subject: RE: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: Wesley S
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 09:07 AM

Here's a great song by Susan Werner from her "Gospel Truth" CD. Gospel music for agnostics.

"(Why is your) heaven so small"


excuse me sir, what did you say?
when you shout so loud, it's hard to tell
you say that i must change my ways
for i am surely bound to hell

well i know you'd damn me if you could
but my friend, that's simply not your call
if god is great and god is good
why is your heaven so small

you say you know you say you've read
that holy bible up on your shelf
do you recall when jesus said
judge not, lest ye be judged yourself

for i know you'd damn me if you could
but my friend, that's simply not your call
if god is great, and god is good
why is your heaven so small

with your fists that shake, and your eyes that burn
what makes you do these things you do?
i would not be surprised to learn
someone somewhere excluded you

but my friend, imagine it if you would
a love much mightier than us all
o if god is great and god is good
why is your heaven
so small

Subject: RE: BS: Hate speech sermons - 1st Am.protected?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 11:38 AM

Ooh, great song! What's the tune?