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BS: Question on McCain's academy record

kendall 12 Sep 08 - 06:28 AM
artbrooks 12 Sep 08 - 08:28 AM
Lox 12 Sep 08 - 08:33 AM
dick greenhaus 12 Sep 08 - 11:18 AM
Ebbie 12 Sep 08 - 11:19 AM
catspaw49 12 Sep 08 - 12:19 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 12 Sep 08 - 12:23 PM
Donuel 12 Sep 08 - 12:31 PM
SINSULL 12 Sep 08 - 12:34 PM
PoppaGator 12 Sep 08 - 12:55 PM
Donuel 12 Sep 08 - 01:04 PM
Peace 12 Sep 08 - 02:15 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 12 Sep 08 - 08:02 PM
Arkie 12 Sep 08 - 08:28 PM
pdq 12 Sep 08 - 08:38 PM
kendall 12 Sep 08 - 09:07 PM
Ebbie 12 Sep 08 - 11:13 PM
GUEST,number 6 12 Sep 08 - 11:51 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 13 Sep 08 - 12:18 AM
kendall 13 Sep 08 - 07:47 AM
Bobert 13 Sep 08 - 08:30 AM
Bobert 13 Sep 08 - 08:52 AM
kendall 13 Sep 08 - 09:41 AM
Bobert 13 Sep 08 - 10:37 AM
PoppaGator 13 Sep 08 - 11:37 AM
pdq 13 Sep 08 - 11:49 AM
curmudgeon 13 Sep 08 - 11:55 AM
Stringsinger 13 Sep 08 - 12:12 PM
Joe Offer 13 Sep 08 - 01:07 PM
pdq 13 Sep 08 - 06:37 PM
Peace 13 Sep 08 - 06:53 PM
pdq 13 Sep 08 - 07:02 PM
Little Hawk 13 Sep 08 - 07:23 PM
pdq 13 Sep 08 - 07:29 PM
EBarnacle 13 Sep 08 - 07:37 PM
Little Hawk 13 Sep 08 - 07:37 PM
GUEST,Peace 13 Sep 08 - 08:15 PM
Bobert 13 Sep 08 - 08:23 PM
pdq 13 Sep 08 - 08:28 PM
Peace 13 Sep 08 - 08:31 PM
Little Hawk 13 Sep 08 - 08:34 PM
Bobert 13 Sep 08 - 08:36 PM
Little Hawk 13 Sep 08 - 08:46 PM
pdq 13 Sep 08 - 08:53 PM
Little Hawk 13 Sep 08 - 08:59 PM
Bobert 13 Sep 08 - 09:00 PM
pdq 13 Sep 08 - 09:24 PM
Peace 13 Sep 08 - 09:26 PM
EBarnacle 13 Sep 08 - 09:45 PM
Ebbie 14 Sep 08 - 02:40 AM

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Subject: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: kendall
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 06:28 AM

As we all know, McWar's score at the Naval academy was 5th from the bottom. What I'd like to know is, what was the highest score in his class, and the lowest? Exactly where did he stand?


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Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: artbrooks
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 08:28 AM

He graduated. Who cares, and what is the relevance?


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Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: Lox
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 08:33 AM

I'm interested to know why you'd like to know that?

If your reason is good, perhaps you could expand the question to cover how many graduates there were?

It might suit your purposes to condider what percentile he inhabits.


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Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 11:18 AM

makings of a great slogan--"Smarter than at least four others"


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Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 11:19 AM

Who was it who once said something to the effect that the worst doctor in the world has patients.

Badly paraphrased, I know, but I can't think of the actual quote.

And a legislator once said, upon being labeled as 'mediocre', Mediocre people need representation too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 12:19 PM

Hi Ebbie......I was thinking the same thing and the old joke is, "What do you call the person who finishes last in his med school class?"--------Doctor.

Once again, I don't want the guy as a President but we have a zillion threads on the friggin' election, the majority slamming someone. Back and forth and back and forth and in the end?????????

In some other one of these multitudinous threads they discuss whether personality or other things is what gets elected. The truth is that even with these two which are about as far apart as it ever gets, neither one will accomplish a tenth of what they promise (or desre) after taking office. The system doesn't allow it. Our best chance is with Obama....my opinion and others mileage may vary. To that end its important to take into account the personality and the decision making potentials of various candidates so their past becomes important.

Problem (to me) is that we focus so heavily we lose sight of how stupid some of the stuff is. I love Kendall, but think about it. McCain graduated from Annapolis, no mean feat even with the advantages of family he had. You still have to do the work and make the grade even if its low. The Honor ethic makes it tough to just slide by.

So now what? Do we find that Pailn used illegal ammo to shoot a moose? Or did Obama fail algebra and had to repeat? We know Biden plagiarized some crap in college. Why do we really care about it?

If we had this level of communication and knowledge and the same interest in crappola as a people for the past 225 years, we'd have had entirely different people in the White House. No maybes about it.....Time for a method change.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 12:23 PM

Who gives a rat's ass about this!? It's bull-pucky. Everyone knows academic achievement has minimal positive correlation to life achievement.

Find a real issue, Kendall.


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Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 12:31 PM

GWB's dad was purported to have links to the Illuminatti.
His son W wasa member in good satnding with the Illiteraltti
and McHale uhh I mean McCain is the founder of the Noliteratti.

cartoon note

McCain's Navy sitcom - "I want the 4 guys I graduated ahead of transferred here to make me look good"

Uhh OK John but they all left the Navy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 12:34 PM

The academy produces soldiers not presidents. Bottom of the class or top, McCain proved himself a loyal soldier.

Our election campaigns are baffling. First the party members rip each other apart as incompetent, dishonest, inexperienced, etc until the conventions where they all get behind one candidate and unanimously agree that this guy is brilliant.
Then the national campaign begins and the same process repeats itself. Each party says the other's candidate is incompetent, dishonest, inexperienced,etc.
Then one of them gets elected and it's Hail To The Chief and lets all put our differences aside. Then 4-8 years of partisan bickering while the country goes to hell in a handbasket.

I am not exaggerating. Read the election threads for proof.

There has to be a better way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: PoppaGator
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 12:55 PM

McCain was reportedly a "troublemaker" at the academy ~ "but," he says, "I was the leader of the troublemakers!"

Sounds pretty plausible to be, and actually a pretty fair recommendation as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not campaigning or voting for McCain, but I've always respected and pretty much liked him, until recently. I am very dismayed, even alarmed, at how readily he seems to have fallen into step with the most dangerous and most extreme elements in his party.

I find his candidacy downright scary these days, and it wouldn't make a bit of difference to me whether he finsihed college first in his USNA class or last.


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Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 01:04 PM

He would be naieve to think that he could survive even one bit of the MIC agenda.

Even if he tried to play Maverick in the White House...

He would be given a lil whiff of smoke and poof suddenly its Gov VP President Palin who would OK more MIC schemes than they did by waking Ronald 'Alzheiemer' Reagan at 3AM and saying... OK?


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Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: Peace
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 02:15 PM

I agree with SINSULL. Ya want crap on ANYone, just dig. If ya find none, make it up. Fuck, it worked for the Republican machine in the 2004 election. As to making it better, ensure that NO special interest group/lobby group gets more than five minutes of listening to. Filthy fucking Neocon bastards are destroying this planet and people are concerned about John McCain and what'serface? Gimme a break!


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Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 08:02 PM

A lack of achievement in a military academy might just be of some little importance in the CV of one who aspires to be de facto head of his country's armed forces, NO?

If not then the rest of us DO have reason to be SCARED MAN!!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: Arkie
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 08:28 PM

J. Earl Moreland, president of Randolph-Macon College for a rather long period made a lasting impression with a quote I wish I could remember to do him justice. I sure heard it enough but over 50 years have since passed. It was to the effect of praising the "A" students and the "B" students for the marks they would make on the world, and being thankful for the "C" students who would be the ones to come back and endow the college. That said, McCain was my choice of the Republican candidates but he has provided no evidence that he would depart from the disastrous policies he helped enact. He claims to be a maverick but voting for 90% Bush favored legislation does make the case. His economic policy of handsome tax refunds to the wealthy elite of the nation is the same old, same old. His spit in the face, pull the trigger diplomacy plows no new ground. The only change I can envision should he somehow manage to be elected is the name of the person dragging the nation down.


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Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: pdq
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 08:38 PM

Today's AP poll:


"McCain blew everyone else away on the question of who had the right experience to be President. Eighty percent said he did, 58 percent said Biden did, 46 percent said that of Obama and 41 percent said it of Palin.

McCain may be catching a break on how much voters identify him with George Bush. Voters say they believe he will take the country in a different direction than Bush by 50 percent to 46 percent."


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Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: kendall
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 09:07 PM

I asked a simple question I get a pageant! Who the hell are you to tell me to get another issue? Do I need permission to post here?

Not that it's any of your friggin' business, but I have been having a discussion with a friend who asked that question and I couldn't answer it. I thought maybe some genius here could.So far, I have a load of horse shit and no answer. If you don't know the answer I'm not interested in your opinion of why I asked. Got it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 11:13 PM

"A recent Washington Post profile of John McCain's years at the Naval Academy portrayed him as an unruly, fun-loving, under-achieving Midshipman struggling with his obligation to live up to his family's brilliant military legacy. It was "a four-year course of insubordination and rebellion," McCain later wrote. McCain graduated 894th out of 899 in 1958, five spots above the "Anchorman," the lowest-ranking midshipman. In this respect he did uphold one family tradition; his similarly rebellious father Jack, who would rise to the rank of Admiral and was the Pacific Command CINC while his son was being held prisoner in Hanoi, had graduated 424th of 441."

From a Supporter


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Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 11:51 PM

"Do we find that Pailn used illegal ammo to shoot a moose? "

You mean there is legal and illegal ammo .... OMG!!

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 12:18 AM

I recently listened to an NPR bio of McCain,

What I heard may help to answer your question Kendall.

The ranking at the naval academy was not just based on grades. A big component was leadership. A big part of leadership was behavior and setting the proper example. He lost a lot of rank for misbehaving. That is not to say that his grades were any great shakes. He got very low grades in subjects he did not like. He would skip class, refuse to study and cram in the days before his exams.

He is certainly smart enough to be President and unlike the previous Republican standard bearer, he has a reputation for being well read.

He also has a reputation for being rash and hotheaded. He admits to having made rash decisions which he has regretted and admitted later. He says he takes full responsibility for his bad, rash decisions, That also makes him a better man than Bush. But wouldn't it be better if we had a President who will measure twice and cut once?


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Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: kendall
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 07:47 AM

Jack, that's what I was looking for, thanks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 08:30 AM

I'm with you, Capt'n... And I bet that those folks who think this is a non-issue are as well...

I mean, let's get real here... If you need tricky brain sergery yer gonna do alot of doctor checkin' out before you go under the knife...

What McCain's grades indicate to me is that he probably wasn't "Academy material" to begin with but go in because of family ties... Then he wrecked a couple expensive airplanes... Yeah, okay, he did get shot down... Who is to say that there wasn't some pilot error in that little situation??? Only he knows and if he screwed up he ain't gonna tell no one...

But bottom line, it's a fair line of conversation... Unless, of course, you are a member of the "McCain/Palin Crybaby Squad"...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 08:52 AM

And just another thought on this issue and that is...

...haven't we seen what happens when we let the C- students call the shots???

("Well, Ralph, Washington is broke!!! Those folks can't do anything right!!!")

What I find amazing is the C- students use "Eastern elitists" to put down the, ahhhhhhhh, folks who actually worked hard and got the material???

That is the saddest part...

But like I said, let them need brain surgery and they are going to seek out the surgeon who studied hard and got the material but when it comes to runing the country seems like oppoiste is what these folks want just so that the person they are voting for ***beleives strongly*** (think Hitler here) in what the believe???

Go figure???

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: kendall
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 09:41 AM

Bobert, I believe it was FIVE planes.
He's an angry old man who goes for young women. Perfectly normal. However, when it comes to being president, I prefer a high IQ.


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Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 10:37 AM

After a couple, who's countin', Capt'n???

Like I've said before, had it not been for Vietnam and the need for anyone who could half-ass fly a plane (like me...lol...) John woulda been grounded after the first wreck and put behind a desk where he could do no harm...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: PoppaGator
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 11:37 AM

From the Robbins column (Link supplied by Ebbie, above):

...the bottom of the class tends to produce a different kind of leader than the top. Those who wind up at the foot are often there by choice. They could do better if they studied, but they would rather trade class ranking for other pursuits. They tend to be the risk takers, the innovators, usually very well liked and in their own way driven. They know how to get into trouble, and more importantly how to get out of it. They also tend to have more than their share of luck.

Not that I'm arguing in favor of McCain as a candidiate in this election, but I agree that college grades don't mean much in the long run, except for those pursuing an academic career.

Of course, I'm prejudiced, as a lifelong underachiever myself.

Incidentally, George W. Bush was not the only C-student with a Yale degree to run in the last election. John Kerry's grades at that same insitution were no better than W's, even though he's obviously more articulate and possessed of superior critical thinking skills.


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Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: pdq
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 11:49 AM

"...even though he's obviously more articulate and possessed of superior critical thinking skills."

No. Like Obama, Kerry had better speaking skills. Not the same as thinking skills. McCain has had 50 years to learn practical skills and his college record is not important at this point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: curmudgeon
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 11:55 AM

"McCain has had 50 years to learn practical skills ..."

Like sending an email?


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Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 12:12 PM

McCrash has turned into McNasty.


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Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 01:07 PM

    "President who will measure twice and cut once"


What's this, Jack the Sailor? Are you campaigning for Ross Perot this year?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: pdq
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 06:37 PM

List of presidents by date who were exceptionally bright (= high IQ):

                      (last century):

                               John Adams
      
                               James Madison

                               Thomas Jefferson

                               Abraham Lincoln

                      (20th Century)

                               Teddy Rooseveldt

                               William H. Taft

                               Woodrow Wilson

                               Calvin Coolidge

                               Herbert Hoover,

                               Franklin Rooseveldt

                               Dwight Eisenhower

                               Richard Nixon

                               George H. W. Bush

                               Bill Clinton.


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Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: Peace
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 06:53 PM

Oh, yeah? WELL, WE have Harper.


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Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: pdq
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 07:02 PM

Mine was a "politics-neutral" post. That probably is the same as "boring" but it shouldn't offend anybody.

However, just imagine that (not saying it is, but it could be true) that the most brilliant intellects to reside in the White House were Calvin Coolidge and Herbert Hoover.


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Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 07:23 PM

It's a form of Canadian humour, pdq. We merely pretend to be offended over stuff like that, and when we do so, it's strictly for laughs. (Steven Harper is the Prime Minister of Canada, and Peace can't stand him...)


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Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: pdq
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 07:29 PM

I am fully aware of the humor in his post and I know about Harper, too.

Now, did you see the humor in my post? The idea that Herbert Hoover and Calvin Collidge may well have been the most intelligent presidents in US history? Now that is both true and hilarious.


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Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: EBarnacle
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 07:37 PM

I seem to recall that the last academy [USMA] graduate who was that low in his class and became president was Grant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 07:37 PM

Yeah, I see it. ;-D I figured you were probably being humorous.

It's Chongo's academic and experiential record that people really need to look into seriously before casting their vote in November.


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Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 08:15 PM

Thread #114321   Message #2439558
Posted By: GUEST
13-Sep-08 - 08:07 PM
Thread Name: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record

Grant?

"Find out what he's drinking and send a case to the rest of my generals."


Dang, that was me.

LH: Think of the songs that could help support Chongo's candidididacy.

(Whew. That's ONE tough word to spell.)

"Loving You Has Made Me Bananas".


Before



and after.


Hey, man, didn't McCain say he wanted to be a fruit (let it go)?


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Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 08:23 PM

How many planes did Grant crash???...lol...

But really, by the time Grant took over for McClellan the South was running out of bullets, shoes, food and men to fight so lets not elevate Grant to some Menza general... He wasn't... He was just a drunk who found himself in the right place at the right time...

Lord does look after drunks, you know...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: pdq
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 08:28 PM

President Grant started the National Park and National Forest systems. The Dept. of the Interior now protects nearly 35% of US lands from private developement by their public (US gov) ownership. Thought somebody might call him a Socialist, not a drunk. Sheesh, you guys are relentless.


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Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: Peace
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 08:31 PM

Yeah. Hell, Churchill too. And Dave 'the seed' Gittchanti.


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Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 08:34 PM

No, Bobert, Grant was a highly effective general for two simple reasons. He used what he had (more men and more guns than the South) and he was not afraid to take very heavy losses and just keep pressing on no matter what. In a war of attrition like that the South could only lose in the end.

McClellan was a fine trainer and army commander until it came to fighting battles. He always grossly overestimated the enemy troop strength, he was incredibly overcautious, he would not press the attack when the opportunities presented themselves...good God, the man was a disaster as a battlefield commander.

Grant used what he had...overwhelming strength...and used it without doubt or hesitation. He was not afraid to lose a lot of lives in the process, and that was exactly the commander the North needed. That's why Lincoln was glad to have Grant in command.

You know I love the Army of Northern Virginia, Bobert. Lee and Jackson are my heroes. But that doesn't change the fact that Grant was a highly effective general. Maybe the liquor helped. Who knows? ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 08:36 PM

He ***was*** a drunk, pdq... He also has gotten way too much credit in American Mythology 101... Given the same number of equipped troops there were at least a half a dozen generals, most of them Southern, who would have stomped Grant into the ground...

But, hey, I'm glad he did those other wonderful things... If he hadn't been drunk he probably would have done even more... Who knows???

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 08:46 PM

An interesting hypothetical! What if Grant had been practicing sobriety?

He might have succeeded as a small businessman and never have joined the army in the first place!


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Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: pdq
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 08:53 PM

Actually, he was a successful business man, but, while serving as president, his partner cheated people. Not a hint of fault in Grant, but he still paid everybody back who felt they were owed money. He spent his last years penniless, rocking in a rocking chair on the back porch because of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 08:59 PM

I was alluding to the earlier part of his life, pdq, prior to his military career.


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Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 09:00 PM

Well, yeah, pdq... He did finally find peace and that is a good thing and I'm glad for him for that... I have no animosity for the man... I just don't buy the mythology part... And I would guess that by the end of this life he didn't either...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: pdq
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 09:24 PM

I can agree that building the man up to mythological proportions is wrong, but I disagree that his last years were spent in peace. He was destitute, unhappy and misunderstood.

A complex man who is seldom seen that way by history.                                                               

(PS: if I had 50,000 people trying to shoot me I'd get drunk too)


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Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: Peace
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 09:26 PM

Get each of 'em to buy you a beer first and you'd last a long time, unless someone lit a match.


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Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: EBarnacle
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 09:45 PM

My point was that academic, even early life, achievement need not be a predictor of future success. Had Lee remained with the Union instead of following what he felt was his true allegiance, he might have become president.

We have had several generals as president. Some were great. Some were disasters and "old Tippecanoe" died before he could make a dent either way.

I am not a fan of McCain and I disagree with most of his stances but I do not doubt that he will do what he considers his best. Frankly, if he gets in, I will pray for his health, in part because Palin terrifies me. We really do not need another ignorant zealot in the White House.


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Subject: RE: BS: Question on McCain's academy record
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 02:40 AM

"LH: Think of the songs that could help support Chongo's candidididacy. "(Whew. That's ONE tough word to spell.)"Peace


It's even harder to pronounce. :)


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