BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street

Subject: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 08:52 AM

U.S. stocks headed for a sharply lower open and Treasury bond prices soared Monday as investors reacted to a stunning reshaping of the landscape of Wall Street. A series of events took out two storied names Sunday: Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. and Merrill Lynch & Co. Stocks posted sharp losses in markets across much of the globe as investors absorbed a bankruptcy filing by Lehman and Merrill Lynch's forced sale to Bank of America for $50 billion in stock. And perhaps most ominously, American International Group Inc. is asking the Federal Reserve for emergency funding. The world's largest insurance company plans to announce a major restructuring Monday.
                                    (from the AP)

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 09:03 AM

I know a secret...

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 09:08 AM

Yeah. .30-30 ammo is on sale right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 09:17 AM

nope

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 09:21 AM

Oh shit !!

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 09:21 AM

psst (whisper)


this has been planned for over 3 weeks to coincide with a 4 day stretch when the China market will be closed for a holiday & weekend.

another secret: the push to drill drill drill is a big oil plan to lease virtually all the new off shore US properties to china.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 09:30 AM

Hoky, Holy Shit indeed.

We're f$%ked

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 09:30 AM

At the end of today the trading may close early to keep it from dropping into the 9,000's.

We may see it close at 10,622 today from Friday's 11,300

a 5% loss is expected ,



a 50% drop would be an honest, yet generous, value of Americas market but that will come slowly instead of the 1929 sudden re evaluation. Its just as bad but designed to happen during a Dmeocratic administration. The business world likes it that way so they can ride the next deregulation Republican wave after some poor democratic shmuck has to pcik up the pieces and raise taxes just to stay afloat.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 09:36 AM

It was on the UK news last night and as predicted the LSE dropped considerably this morning. It seemed to improve a bit but is back on its way down. My ISA (PEPS) have already gone down in value this year so it is not good news for me. I'll just sit it all out and keep my fingers crossed!

I really don't understand much about these things and what the implications of the China market being closed are.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 09:39 AM

There were only 5 huge investment banks on Wall Street. 3 are now gone.

That leaves two remaining.

IF you had Goldman Sachs or AIG you might be next to lose out of sheer panic.





Ever wonder why everyone but Lehman bros. got bailed out or bought by Bank of America?

I shouldn't say this but Lehman Bros. might be...

I'll say this instead. Lehman might be the wrong faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 09:40 AM

Meant London Stock Exchange, not London School of Economics :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 09:43 AM

Doesn't the Bank of America have problems of its own with sub-prime lending?

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 09:46 AM

China's market can't imediately respond and sell off big, triggering a fast cycle of re actionsell offs throughout the week.
The market yahoos prefer to slow down the unsuing 5% to 10% devaluation of the market.

imho it will still have 30 to 40 % to go down but the brakes are on full...all we can do is wait for the skidding to stop before we crash. Billionaire hedge $ can walk up a market*** maybe 5% but that is temporary and getting to risky to much anymore.


***walk up =(infuse a huge block of buying to stimulate suckers to not sell or even buy - and then sell the huge block a day or two later)

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 09:51 AM

BOAmerica and several big private investors don't mind eating the dead meat if it is cheap enough. Besides when you are too big to fail you are like the criminal who steals a trillion dollars, you are in the position of getting your demands met.

If you only steal $10,000 you are going to a cell with a metal toilet/sink.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 09:55 AM

Donuel, thanks for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 09:56 AM

And to top it all off the Chinese are going to release a Pandemic influenza.

Now I'm really pissed !!!

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 10:00 AM

Well, things clearly are a bit grim today - the London Stock Exchange has now stopped giving figures on its website!

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 10:01 AM

Figures are back but lower still.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 10:04 AM

AIG is on it's way out also.

Comentary on Marketplace (NPR program airs for 10 minutes during Morning Edition in this market) this morning said there are a lot of regional brokerage houses posed to take advantage of the failure of the big ones. It's about time it wasn't all so centrally located anyway.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 10:32 AM

Why did Banc of America pay as much as 70% more than if they had waited and let Merrill Lych stocks fall, as they hav, today?

Merrill Lynch under John Thain had already sold big chunks of their company to Europe and China. Europe and Chaina could have tried to prop up their existing investment and buy Merill Lynch outright OR if Banc of America under Ken Lewis had bouht it at newar worthless values like they did with Countrywide and Bear Sternes the Chinese investors would have lost so much money that retalliation would be expected.

Ken Lewis and John Thain said the world "STRATEGIC" 27 times at their press conference today. If you owned Merrill shares they will be discounted (you lose) but the ratio of stock value to BOA will remain fixed. BAO will drop too.

Ken Lewis is now he new crown king of Wall Street.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 10:42 AM

I need some more ammo for hunting.

I kinda think times are gonna get a bit tough.

And while I don't agree with everything Donuel has posted, much of it is true and frightening. I'll be looking over the Library Board minutes from late 1929, 1930, and 1931 when I get to work to see what tips might be there. We've already had an increase in patronage.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:03 AM

Nothing I have said is actually alarmist. Everyone has an idea when the markets rock bottom will be reached. MY guess that it will be in 2 years.

Even if regulation were enacted today it would take years for fixes to take hold.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:05 AM

I agree with THAT!

I predict that in two years the US will also find itself in a situation similar to that when Sputnik was launched: suddenly the government will realize that we have fallen way, way behind in education and there will be a frantic frenzy to "catch up."

You can't undo decades of mistakes in a few days and still have a democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:10 AM

We are tied with Estonia in child education scores.

I don't think I would want my kids in school 6 days a week like in Japan.

Rapaire, the book Wreaking Crew has soured my mood a bit this week.
It shows the big picture of the deficit and why conservatives run it up to the sky.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:27 AM

Ken Lewis just said that over the next 5 years 4,500 banks will close their doors (fail of be bought up)

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: john f weldon
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:42 AM

An interesting analogy Rapaire, and believe me, I wish you well. But Sputnick represented that the Russians were ahead in one area, physics & rocket science. Happily, the increase in education spending (and respect) spread quite widely, into other fields and crossing borders.

But... ...one area where the Russians were behind and stayed behind was biology. This was due to the fact that Darwinism (and Mendelian genetics) was seen as contrary to Marxism. So they went with Lysenko; the result was Russian crop failures, while North American wheat flourished. This was at least as important as the arms race in scotching the Russian Empire.

Soo... ...I hope you get the increased education, but not the Sarah Palin variety!

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:56 AM

"a 50% drop would be an honest, yet generous, value of Americas market but that will come slowly instead of the 1929 sudden re evaluation. Its just as bad but designed to happen during a Dmeocratic administration. The business world likes it that way so they can ride the next deregulation Republican wave after some poor democratic shmuck has to pcik up the pieces and raise taxes just to stay afloat." Donuel

If that strategy is in place, the powers must be assuming that the next administration will be Democratic. They wouldn't want to lay this onto McPain, would they?

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 12:23 PM

There was no intent to compare the US and Russia -- just to point out that I suspect that a similar frenzy will take place. Who cares about facts when you can have a media frenzy?

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: heric
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 12:43 PM

Elmer Fuld of Lehman reportedly made 45 million dollars last year for his good work there.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 01:07 PM

"Who cares about facts when you can have a media frenzy? "

... let alone a people frenzy !!


biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 01:24 PM

Actually, heric, his work last year earned him his 45M. Up until June of 2008, Lehman Bros was doing well. Fuld's mistake was to believe the company was worth more than the offers he received until time finally ran out.

This will make a great movie someday with Fuld's hubris setting the tragedy in motion.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 01:37 PM

"Elmer Fuld"? Elmer Fuld??????????

You gotta be kidding! Has he been heard muttering darkly about "wascally wabbits"? Does he brandish a shotgun and frequently check the status of his "cawwot patch"?

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 01:57 PM

The major banks of Europe have stepped in to make US$70 billion available for those in trouble to draw on.
The entire western economy is in the same boat, and probably China, etc., as well.

With AIG having problems, others will be in the same boat- if you have any insurance claims, you may not be paid.

Have fun! Enjoy!

Just noticed a Google add at the bottom of this thread-
"Hot Stock Alert- OXFD. Make Big Bucks in Bad Loans. Profit From Mrtgage Meltdown. Invest Now."

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 01:58 PM

Without all the new Orwellian code words...
Let me simplify the process with a good old fashioned illustration
Market 'crises' made easy

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 02:02 PM

Geeeeezuz H. Donuel !

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 03:33 PM

Next up: AIG and Washington Mutual (WaMu).

Apparently this is hurting the BIG boys. The small saver is covered by FDIC.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Art Thieme
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 03:44 PM

Where3 are the Wobblies when we need 'em?
   
I paraphrase their Preamble's opening line. American capitalism, and true equality, both economically and socially, among the peoples of the nation, have nothing in common.

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Art Thieme
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 03:48 PM

Donuel,
Right!
Art

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 03:53 PM

The US has 9,000 banks today. The CEO of Banc of America responded to a question of how many banks will there be in 5 years.

He said "about half".

The liquidity infusions of cash and bail outs by the Fed effectivly makes each dollar printed worth exactly less by the number of lost dollars in failed banks and mortgage companies.

http://usera.imagecave.com/donuel/bloodmoney.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:05 PM

Art - I thought the WOBBLIES were right all along, too. I wonder if this will bring them back?

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:18 PM

Poor Shmucks of the world unite.

the AIG bail out is a loan to buy time to sell off its material assets.

If you had life insurance policy with AIG which is largely an insurance bank, then your life insurance is covered --- UP TO A POINT

Some policy holders will not get full value, but in the case of life insurance you're already dead and won;t know it.

Why is Lehman Bros the only guys not to get their bail out?
besides some brokers say they are too Jewish. The WASP country club is feeling mighty proud now. Its like the good old days in Germany.

AIG (All Ignorant Gorillas) made some extremely stupid investments after everyone knew that sub prime was a bogus investment. Wachovia did the same dumb thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:38 PM

GWB said that in the long run he is confident in the flexibility of our markets

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:55 PM

In the late 1980s and early 1990s, more than 1000 federally insured institutions went under, the government bailout cost taxpayers about $125 billion.
NY International Herald Tribune (NY Times stable), More Will Fail

The FDIC has 117 banks on their "problem list." Financial Times, August 26, 2008- "Number of Struggling US banks rises by 30%," James Politi.

The loss this time may be larger.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:57 PM

Warren Buffet said thanks but no thanks to Lehman Bros. and AIG

If you mimic Buffet or Soros on your own smaller scale, you will invariably be doing the right financial thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: skarpi
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:44 PM

there might be only one left on wall street tomorrow ??

AIG is in big trouble ??


oh boy , its shaky out there

the money market is like an old volcano it blow every 100 years or so
hee hee

kv Skarpi Iceland

I ´ll get me a boat and fish for food and start fish seabird again
live on the nature again .........

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:54 PM

Sme may not understand the '9,000 banks' thing - In the USA there are many 'mom & pop' banks - dating right back to The Wild West, when anybody could start a local bank with very few branches. In Australia, we only have a handful of banks - they each have thousands of branches everywhere, If an Aussie bank goes up the spout, the ride will be rough.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 07:06 PM

The Aussie banks will be all right if they're not holding any American paper.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 07:20 PM

Not to worry, this situation will provide unheard of economic OPPORTUNITIES...Control your thoughts...bob

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Peace
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 07:28 PM

Song I'm working on this week.

"Be damned, be gone you neo-cons,
Be gone you billionaires,
I've watched you from the minute of my birth:
I clearly see the riches that
These corporate sons-a-bitches
Made from starving children on this Earth."

Bruce Murdoch

I'm gonna get it to Youtube soon as I can after it's finished.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 08:40 PM

"Candidates Talk Wall Street in Order to Win Over Main Street"

A day late, and oh, shall we say, a dollar short.

None of you will recall I was bitching about both of them running and hiding from the first mortgage bailout Senate vote about a month ago.

We have nothing to listen to but pure unadulterated bullshit for the next four weeks.