BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 09:39 PM

petr - Yes, I agree. Phil Gramm is an idiot. I thought McCain would have been smarter than to tie his wagon to Gramm.



                   All of it makes me want to vote for Nader.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 09:12 PM

pdq
My apologies for any lack of clarity. If you could point to a reasonable example I will try to conform to a standard which is universaly comprehensible.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 08:21 PM

mainedog doesnt get it at all..

there is no comparison of a natural disaster hitting New Orleans with a bailout of AIG..
(never mind CarolC's very good point that they actually did bugger all for New Orleans..)

AIG is in the INSURANCE industry they are in the business of RISK... they are supposed to
be careful and do their due dilligence in evaluating risk.. instead they were leveraged up to the yin yang and went ahead and insured all these risky mortgage deals -

sure I understand that it was necessary for the Govt. to step in and stave off any further collapse... (although it would have been far better not to have de-regulated ---
NOTE: Phil Graham, who wrote McCains economic poliy and was the architect of the 2000 bill that de-regulated credit default swaps. Deregulation has been the cornerstone of many conservatives since Reagan. It has failed miserably.)

basically if you believe in a FREE ENTERPRISE or Laissez Faire system they should be allowed to fail- otherwise if you expect some kind of govt. intervention then it is a form of socialism - (and I dont say that with distaste)

I run a business - and in the 25 years we have been around - we never got a cent from the govt. If I make some stupid decisions and fail I dont expect to be bailed out..

Bush and the Republicans wanted to replace social security with a PRIVATE savings accounts, - at this rate everyone would be broke.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 05:36 PM

From: Donuel - PM
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 09:30 AM

At the end of today the trading may close early to keep it from dropping into the 9,000's.

We may see it close at 10,622 today from Friday's 11,300

WHOO HOO It closed at 10,609 today
I was only 13 points off.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: pdq
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 02:05 PM

MaineDog's post is amazingly clear and reasonable. That is almost impossible to find right now in Mudcat's BS section.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: heric
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 01:35 PM

Good observation MD. Of course in any election with the economy in the tank, we want to punish "them," but who are "they"? See here, it's entrenched and endemic and bipartisan:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20080716/pl_politico/11781

Witht the quality of our journalists (see, e.g., Charles Gibson), try to imagine how much we don't know.

>So AIG is now, for all practical purposes, nationalized?<

Well good - now we can (do?) have a nationalized health insurance program why not.


Was it this thread where riginslinger said we are scum if we pass this to our children? Too late dude. It's done.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 01:27 PM

If the bank that holds my mortgage goes tits up, do I still have to make the payments?

Honestly, I hadn't read this thread all the way through until now (and I've skipped bits) and was sort of amused to find people treating Donuel's predictions as alarmist, having just seen the Dow drop over 300 points and AIG give up the ghost. When it comes to the US economy right now, NOTHING is 'over the top'.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 01:15 PM

LOL

Ah well, people can console themselves with the knowledge that the Pledge of Allegiance was written by a socialist, so socialism can't be all bad.

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 01:01 PM

So AIG is now, for all practical purposes, nationalized?

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 12:46 PM

New Orleans did get substantially wiped out, and the Feds have done f*ck all to help the people of that city. The Feds only help the people at the top. Everyone else is on their own.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: MaineDog
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 11:06 AM

If a hurricane were to hit New Orleans and substantially wipe it out, I bet almost everyone in the country would scream for the Feds to step in and bail them out, even if they knew they were building below sea level and not adequately maintaing their levies and pumps.

Now that a disaster has hit the American financial infrastructure, some people are upset that the Feds are taking action. Is this a case of "not in my back yard" or "those immoral bastards deserve what they get"
or "the American financial system is not in line with the demands of Allah and deserves to be destoyed along with the World Trade Center"?

Unfortunately we do have a financial infrastructure which has become essential to business as usual. FACT. Perhaps this should not be so, but here we are and it has taken us many years to get here, and it will take many years to back out of the situation even if we decide to do so now.

If a terrorist blows up an important bridge, we fix the bridge, we don't wait until we catch the terrorist and see if we can squeeze any money out of h-.

Then, we put new standards on bridges, and new defenses in place, and try to prevent it from happening again. Catching and punishing the crook is a good idea, but probably not the most important to do now.
MD

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 10:50 AM

Where is the small town justice for Wall Street Swindlers?

provocative indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 09:49 AM

Why no mention of Jail Time or any other punishment for these little wall street giants?

Could it be the editors are owned by them?

Hey were are the robo journalists, the greg palasts in this issue?

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 09:28 AM

Say this whole mess took place in a small town.
The guy who took your money to buy seed for your crops.
THings were fine and the crops made a profit.
But now the seed banker bought unkown worthless seeds on purpose or worse yet took your moeny and didn't give you any seeds, just a promise.

Now you have no money or seeds.

There is no more trust, no more seeds no more crops.

What do you think the townsfolk should do to the seed salesman?



If we killed him, the next seed salesman might think twice about cheating us.
If we bailed him out, the way is clear for more of the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 08:48 AM

"I think we're heading for Socialism," the man said to me yesterday.
"Right about now almost anything seems better than what we have," I replied.
"Yes," he sighed. "So much for my life-long support of the Republican Party and George W. Bush."

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 08:39 AM

Desperate Wall Street
Why don't you come to your senses
You've been out fencing messes
For so long now
That cash that you've stolen
is the debt we are holdin
and will hurt us somehow.

Don't you sell the sub prime mortgages
She'll beat you if she's able.
You know that energy is always your best bet.
Now it seems to me, some fine things
Have been laid upon your table.
But you only want the ones
That you can't get.

Desperare Wall Street,
Ohhhh you aint getting no younger.
Your pain and your hunger,
They're driving you home.
And freedom, ohh freedom.
Well that's just some people talking.
Your prison is a hundred mil in your Swiss account.


Et Tu AIG?

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: pdq
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 06:39 AM

"if you expect to be bailed out at taxpayer expense - then you shouldnt expect to rake in the money when times are good.

The US government gets (in one way or another) three (3) trillion dollars a year to spend. Every year is "good times" for the federal government. The people and some lower government entities are not always the lucky.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 11:49 PM

It's only socializing the risk. The people who say they hate socialism only hate it when the benefits are socialized. They prefer to socialize the risk.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 11:43 PM

and bear stearns..

I think the key point is that the US is moving away from being the financial powerhouse it used to be - and the BRIC Countries Russian, India China are on the rise...

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 11:41 PM

so the Fed stepped in and bailed out AIG just like they did Fannie Mac and Freddie Mac..
hows that for socialism.

if you expect to be bailed out at taxpayer expense - then you shouldnt expect to rake in the money when times are good.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 11:16 PM

Anybody know how all of this is affecting banks in other countries? Our bank is a Canadian bank that has a presence in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 11:12 PM

Banc of America is now strategicly too big to fail

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 10:09 PM

I don't see anything else they can do in the short term. But now is the time to face the reality of the situation and actually pay for it.
                Ebbie is right. We are all the lowest form of scum if we allow this debt to be passed on to our children.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 10:03 PM

I understand and approve of the Federal government "bailing out" the Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corporation (a/k/a "Freddie Mac") and the Federal National Mortgage Association ("Fannie Mae"). They are federally chartered corporations set up by Congress, "government sponsored enterprises" as they are called. And the "bailout" was actually placing both in "conservatorship" of the Federal Home Financing Administration (FHFA). There had been rumors and talk of troubles within both for some time -- over a year, as far as I know.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 08:31 PM

There's a hole in my bucket! Our Cup Runneth Over

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 08:14 PM

We're biting off more than we can chew
We're biting off more than we can chew
We're biting off more than we can chew
Me and you. So what're we gonna do?

   We'll just leave it to our children
   We'll just leave it to our children
   We'll just leave it to our children
   They'll just have to find a way to pay and pay and pay
   Big debtors. Ain't-grown-yetters
   Ankle biters. You-all-keep-quieters.

Pat Henry, bluesman
Juneau, Alaska

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 07:34 PM

Blessed are the young for they shall inherit the national debt.
                                  --Herbert Hoover

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 06:31 PM

Gee, Where are DougR and BB?--we need reassuring words.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 02:18 PM

Republicans call this the ctrisis du jour, they must be right.
Nothing here folks, move along, go home if ya gottem.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 11:46 AM

Gramm really did that but everytime they do secretly put laws no one voted for on the books, now one goes to jail. Dick Army did it too.
Like a mental depression he has caused a global depression. But he says its all in our mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Alice
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 11:21 AM

A little background on this that I received in email today:

If McCain wants to hold someone accountable for the failure in transparency and accountability that led to the current calamity, he should turn to his good friend and adviser, Phil Gramm.
As Mother Jones reported in June, eight years ago, Gramm, then a Republican senator chairing the Senate banking committee, slipped a 262-page bill into a gargantuan, must-pass spending measure. Gramm's legislation, written with the help of financial industry lobbyists, essentially removed newfangled financial products called swaps from any regulation. Credit default swaps are basically insurance policies that cover the losses on investments, and they have been at the heart of the subprime meltdown because they have enabled large financial institutions to turn risky loans into risky securities that could be packaged and sold to other institutions.
Lehman's collapse threatens the financial markets because of swaps.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 09:22 AM

I'm with Skarpi. At least I'm in a place where I can grow my own veggies, fish my own fish, and hunt my own meat. If I have to, I can do all those things.

I'm currently doing an analysis of the local unemployment rate vs. the national rate, trying to see if this area has a period when it lags behind the national rate and if so, by what length of time. Two statisticians who know the local economy that I've spoken with agree with my suspicion about the lag. I'm using monthly data from January, 1978 to the present.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 05:58 AM

A lot of jobs in the UK will be lost as a result of this and the FTSE is down again today.

Will the fact that some countries have injected money into their banking system or money markets have MUCH effect in calming things? Australia was mentioned earlier in the thread and that is one of the countries that has put money into the money markets.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:43 AM

kat
Everyone seems to like the black and white toons
I don't know why they have more impact than technicolor but they do.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:29 AM

Yes and I've been listening I'm just talking about our two straight-talking Senators running from the general subject when an important vote was scheduled where they work. And the all-too-obvious point that they are not going to start talking straight now! I'm going to pretty much shut down on listening to anythng more from them.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:24 AM

Donuel! THAT "illustration" needs to be published, far and wide!!! By far the best in quality I've seen of all of yours, all of which you know I think are fantastic!

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Peace
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:21 AM

Heric and Don, y'ain't alone my friends.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:47 PM

heric I have been speaking of this neo financial fiasco for 6 years.

Greenspan today said "this is the worst thing I have seen in my lifetime".

Robert Reich It really is bad.

For 8 years I have been called an alarmist and worse, but I was not alone.

Granted if you have in your hands a liquid 5 million and no outstanding debt you will find several great opportunities over the next 5 years that could generate a multi generational fortune over 10 years investing outside the US.

Otherwise a 100K income will = a $40,000 income due to inflation, if your job is not lost.

I have remained steadfastly passionate about the blatant theft and lies in the financial market for 6 years.

I told you one year ago I sold all my stock and suggested you do the same.

All I want to say is that all of us that knew this was happening did not cry wolf. We told you the wolves were in the bank and they were Christian Republicans claiming they were doing God's work.

If I was an eloquent writer I might have sounded more persuasive but I told the truth the best way I knew how.

In a way its like for every $2,000 a rich man stole from you, you have lost 20,000. They made a tiny commission and you lose your life savings.

gnite and gluck

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 08:40 PM

"Candidates Talk Wall Street in Order to Win Over Main Street"

A day late, and oh, shall we say, a dollar short.

None of you will recall I was bitching about both of them running and hiding from the first mortgage bailout Senate vote about a month ago.

We have nothing to listen to but pure unadulterated bullshit for the next four weeks.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Peace
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 07:28 PM

Song I'm working on this week.

"Be damned, be gone you neo-cons,
Be gone you billionaires,
I've watched you from the minute of my birth:
I clearly see the riches that
These corporate sons-a-bitches
Made from starving children on this Earth."

Bruce Murdoch

I'm gonna get it to Youtube soon as I can after it's finished.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 07:20 PM

Not to worry, this situation will provide unheard of economic OPPORTUNITIES...Control your thoughts...bob

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 07:06 PM

The Aussie banks will be all right if they're not holding any American paper.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:54 PM

Sme may not understand the '9,000 banks' thing - In the USA there are many 'mom & pop' banks - dating right back to The Wild West, when anybody could start a local bank with very few branches. In Australia, we only have a handful of banks - they each have thousands of branches everywhere, If an Aussie bank goes up the spout, the ride will be rough.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: skarpi
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:44 PM

there might be only one left on wall street tomorrow ??

AIG is in big trouble ??


oh boy , its shaky out there

the money market is like an old volcano it blow every 100 years or so
hee hee

kv Skarpi Iceland

I ´ll get me a boat and fish for food and start fish seabird again
live on the nature again .........

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:57 PM

Warren Buffet said thanks but no thanks to Lehman Bros. and AIG

If you mimic Buffet or Soros on your own smaller scale, you will invariably be doing the right financial thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:55 PM

In the late 1980s and early 1990s, more than 1000 federally insured institutions went under, the government bailout cost taxpayers about $125 billion.
NY International Herald Tribune (NY Times stable), More Will Fail

The FDIC has 117 banks on their "problem list." Financial Times, August 26, 2008- "Number of Struggling US banks rises by 30%," James Politi.

The loss this time may be larger.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:38 PM

GWB said that in the long run he is confident in the flexibility of our markets

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:18 PM

Poor Shmucks of the world unite.

the AIG bail out is a loan to buy time to sell off its material assets.

If you had life insurance policy with AIG which is largely an insurance bank, then your life insurance is covered --- UP TO A POINT

Some policy holders will not get full value, but in the case of life insurance you're already dead and won;t know it.

Why is Lehman Bros the only guys not to get their bail out?
besides some brokers say they are too Jewish. The WASP country club is feeling mighty proud now. Its like the good old days in Germany.

AIG (All Ignorant Gorillas) made some extremely stupid investments after everyone knew that sub prime was a bogus investment. Wachovia did the same dumb thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:05 PM

Art - I thought the WOBBLIES were right all along, too. I wonder if this will bring them back?

Subject: RE: BS: Big Trouble on Wall Street
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 03:53 PM

The US has 9,000 banks today. The CEO of Banc of America responded to a question of how many banks will there be in 5 years.

He said "about half".

The liquidity infusions of cash and bail outs by the Fed effectivly makes each dollar printed worth exactly less by the number of lost dollars in failed banks and mortgage companies.

http://usera.imagecave.com/donuel/bloodmoney.jpg