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BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist

Donuel 16 Sep 08 - 12:57 AM
Donuel 16 Sep 08 - 12:53 AM
CarolC 16 Sep 08 - 12:46 AM
CarolC 16 Sep 08 - 12:41 AM
catspaw49 16 Sep 08 - 12:34 AM
Little Hawk 15 Sep 08 - 11:48 PM
Stilly River Sage 15 Sep 08 - 11:46 PM
Little Hawk 15 Sep 08 - 11:45 PM
Little Hawk 15 Sep 08 - 11:41 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 15 Sep 08 - 10:22 PM
PoppaGator 15 Sep 08 - 09:28 PM
Stilly River Sage 15 Sep 08 - 08:57 PM
Richard Bridge 15 Sep 08 - 08:48 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 15 Sep 08 - 07:45 PM
pdq 15 Sep 08 - 07:37 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 15 Sep 08 - 07:24 PM
Peace 15 Sep 08 - 07:01 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 15 Sep 08 - 06:56 PM
irishenglish 15 Sep 08 - 06:43 PM
Little Hawk 15 Sep 08 - 06:43 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 15 Sep 08 - 06:40 PM
Little Hawk 15 Sep 08 - 06:32 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 15 Sep 08 - 06:22 PM
Riginslinger 15 Sep 08 - 06:20 PM
Little Hawk 15 Sep 08 - 06:14 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 15 Sep 08 - 06:12 PM
Jack Campin 15 Sep 08 - 06:08 PM
Amos 15 Sep 08 - 06:06 PM
pdq 15 Sep 08 - 06:00 PM
Little Hawk 15 Sep 08 - 05:57 PM
Richard Bridge 15 Sep 08 - 05:55 PM
Stilly River Sage 15 Sep 08 - 05:51 PM
Little Hawk 15 Sep 08 - 05:45 PM
Genie 15 Sep 08 - 05:44 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 15 Sep 08 - 05:44 PM
Peace 15 Sep 08 - 05:41 PM
Little Hawk 15 Sep 08 - 05:37 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 15 Sep 08 - 05:36 PM
pdq 15 Sep 08 - 05:25 PM
Little Hawk 15 Sep 08 - 05:04 PM
Little Hawk 15 Sep 08 - 04:54 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 15 Sep 08 - 04:54 PM
Donuel 15 Sep 08 - 04:52 PM
GUEST,Jack the Sailor 15 Sep 08 - 04:52 PM
Alice 15 Sep 08 - 04:43 PM
Riginslinger 15 Sep 08 - 04:39 PM
Donuel 15 Sep 08 - 04:33 PM
Alice 15 Sep 08 - 04:31 PM
Little Hawk 15 Sep 08 - 04:13 PM
Riginslinger 15 Sep 08 - 04:02 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:57 AM

It's OK to despise certain people for their actions, just dispise them for the right reasons and despicable actions.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:53 AM

Sheee IT

I liked the Chad Mitchell trio.




TO HELL WITH THE NEW RELIGIOUS REPUBLICAN FINANCIAL FELONS

No cute cartoons here about their stupidity, treason and greed.

ITs not cute anymore and you deserve to be pissed off.

I'll show you how to be pissed off.
Can you say "Go To Hell!"
I'm more pissed off than Spaw playing the dozen's squared.
I am pissed and I damn the military corporate religious complexs to hell. A REAL HELL
Smug staunch Republicans continue to defend this rape of your country.
You really want them to get away with this torture rape murder and theft?
I would like them to know what hell is like.
It is worse than losing a few toys or homes...or losing the password for your Swiss Banc account...
It is like having your eyes are ripped out and you are charged interest compounded daily only to have them returned 10 years later. By then they will be rotted dried flaps of tissue, and you can only hear your family die slowly of simple painful infections since they not afford health care.

If there is a special hell that exists beyond the grave, for these Republican criminals it might be like this...
For the rest of their life they will feel non existent, then somehow after they die they will feel as though they do exist, impotent to everything alive.

I curse you so that
Every reversal of truth you ever told will come back to make you the victim of the alledged sexism, elitism, racism and religious fundamentalism.

Then we will gather all your mega felon friends to look into your face of two red holes where eyes used to be and promise to help you, while they take whatever you had left inside you that was still human.

Then and only then I would curse you to be reborn and live a life alone except for the haranguing voices of Ann Coulter and Bill O'Reilly in your head.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:46 AM

( ...but I'm not holding my breath, since the person who is all up in arms about personal attacks in this thread is one of the worst offenders in the Mudcat when it comes to making personal attacks)


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:41 AM

Sure looked to me like I was being dragged into it (no surprise there), since I am a member of the household being referenced. Otherwise, simply addressing the person who said the thing in question would have been appropriate. And if so, it was a completely unwarranted personal attack on me, since I have not, prior to this post, made any posts to this thread at all.

Or perhaps the person who castigated the "household" of which I am a member would like to rephrase their post.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:34 AM

Hey....If JtS takes a break Little Hawk is off the hook. Nuts to that!

Lookit here Hawk......I despise you AND I despise Winona Ryder AND anyone who doesn't pay homage to Cheech Wizard AND anyone who thinks Major Tom wasn't a simpleass, psychotic dickhead! Go toast a dachshund you pathetic, miserable, broke-dick mamalucca!

Spaw




THE JOHN BIRCH SOCIETY
(Michael Brown)--performed by The Chad Mitchell Trio

Oh we're meeting at the courthouse at eight o'clock tonight
You just come in the door and take the first turn to the right
Be careful when you get there, we'd hate to be bereft
But we're taking down the names of everybody turning left

'Cause we're the John Birch Society, the John Birch Society
Here to save this country from a communistic plot
We're the John Birch Society, help us swell the ranks
To get this movement started, we need lots of tools and cranks

Now there's no one that we're certain that the Kremlin doesn't touch
We think that Westbrook Pegler doth protest a bit too much
We only hail the hero from whom we got our name
We're not sure what he did, but he's our hero all the same


Join the John Birch Society, the John Birch Society
Socialism is the ism dismalist of all
Join the John Birch Society, there's so much to do
Have you heard they're serving vodka at the W.C.T.U.

Well you've heard about the agents that we've already named
Well M.C.A. has agents that are flatly unashamed
We're after Rosie Clooney, we've gotten Pinky Lee
And the day we get Red Skelton won't that be a victory

For we're the John Birch Society, the John Birch Society
Norman Vincent Peale may think he's kidding us along
But the John Birch Society knows he spilled the beans
He keeps on preaching brotherhood, but we know what he means

We'll teach you how to spot 'em in the city or the sticks
'Cause even Jasper Junction is just full of Bolsheviks
The CIA's subversive and so's the FCC
There's no one left but thee and we, and we're not sure of thee

Oh we're the John Birch Society, the John Birch Society
Here to save our country from a Communistic plot
Join the John Birch Society, holding off the Reds
We'll use our hands and hearts, and if we must, we'll use our heads

BRIDGE: (O beautiful, for spacious skies, for amber waves of grain)

spoken: Friends, do you want Justice Warren to be your Commissar?
Do you want Mrs. Khrushchev in there with the DAR?
You cannot trust your neighbors, or even next-of-kin
If mommy is a Commie then you gotta turn her in

To the John Birch Society, the John Birch Society
Fighting for the right to fight the right fight for the right
Join the John Birch Society, as we're marching on
We'll all be glad to see you when we're meeting in the John
In the John, In the John Birch Society


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:48 PM

Every USA election stares the world in the face, but none more than this one. If the world was voting, Obama would win by a landslide.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:46 PM

You are making assumptions, JtS. And you see attacks everywhere, but today you launched one and got called on it. So, let's see, let's call it an attack on your wife instead of what it is--your misbehavior and someone telling you to cool it.

Can we stand 50 more days of high-flown partisan lunacy? Especially when there are a few who fly off the handle and start calling names and suggesting others stick to discussing politics in 'their own county,' like this U.S. election isn't staring the world in the face?

Give me a break.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:45 PM

Dang. I somehow totally screwed up the italics html in the above post. (sigh)

Oh, well...


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:41 PM

Hey, Jack, I did not mean that I despise you...or pdq...or anyone else here. I don't despise anyone taking part in this discussion on an individual or personal basis.

When I said that "I do despise your partisan mudslinging. No pretence about it. That goes for both Republicans and Democrats. I despise your partisanship and your entire ludicrous presidential election process."..................I was NOT referring to specific individuals here with the word "your". I was referring to the USA's Democratic and Republican parties themselves...huge political organizations which sling mud at each other. And I was saying that I despise certain forms of negative behaviour that those parties pander to: such as mudslinging and personal attacks. They are forms of behaviour that worsen the general political climate we all must function in.

I despise the Canadian parties too, frankly, because they also engage in the same kind of cynical campaign tactics. They lie, deceive, mudsling, and exaggerate. They sieze upon the most trivial things to try and hurt their opponents (like that business about a bird shitting on Dion's shoulder).

That does not mean I despise individual Canadian citizens or individual American citizens or politicians themselves or people on this forum. It's the powerful organizations and great power structures that I despise...not the ordinary people who are just the foot soldiers and who are out there doing the best they know how.

The comment was not directed at Jack personally. It was directed at the very prevalent mudslinging and bad behaviour I see happening in this election campaign and being pushed by party strategists on both sides. People get caught up in it. I wish they would find it embarrassing enough that they would not even want to get caught up in it.

I hope that clarifies what I said to some extent.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 10:22 PM

"From a household"??!!?? You need to take the chip off your shoulder lady.

You certainly don't have to turn a disagreement between LH and me into a backhanded attack on my wife.

Jeepers! Talk about a hot head!

LOL!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: PoppaGator
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 09:28 PM

Little Hawk is not a hothead, not usually, which is why I was very much taken aback at what he wrote to Jack just above. In this particular instance, I certainly felt that LH was way off-base, uncharacteristically so.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 08:57 PM

Then little Hawk, here is some advice.

Fuck off and discuss the Canadian election.

The bullshit you bless us with is amusing when you don't get personal. But now you are getting personal. That isn't funny.


and

Little Hawk wagging his finger at me and saying he despises the politics of my adopted country and trying to pretend that he is superior to pdq and me causes on thought to come to my mind.

Better politics starts at home.


From a household that claims to abhor personal attacks, this is entirely uncalled for. Especially since Little Hawk _isn't_ a hot head and doesn't start fights or swear at people.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 08:48 PM

Well, lets try a comparison.

Is it more significant that Palin quotes a murder-inciting fascist, or that Obama might (but probably did not) call Palin a pig (as she clearly is, in the trough to the bottom of her snout)?


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 07:45 PM

Look, I have no problem with Little Hawk making his peanut gallery comments. I'm just saying they are more palatable when he is not singling people out or attributing baser motives to those who disagree with him.

But pdq makes a good point.

I'm going to listen to Bob Marley and practice "Redemption song."

See y'all.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: pdq
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 07:37 PM

Most of us are here to have fun. I think all the regular posters have merit, me included. The personal attacks are getting hard to justify. I am not saying who is guilty be we all are at times. I will do someting else tonight. I just got a new CD of a Grateful Dead (all acoustic!) concert. Mudcat cooling-off period - substitue Jerry with Martin guitar - good day, all.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 07:24 PM

I'm fine with it I pay taxes here, have campaigned and as a legal resident have donated to the campaigns. I certainly have a right to discuss it. On the other hand, Little Hawk wagging his finger at me and saying he despises the politics of my adopted country and trying to pretend that he is superior to pdq and me causes on thought to come to my mind.

Better politics starts at home.

or put more simply, If he doesn't like US politics, he doesn't have to involve himself in it.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Peace
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 07:01 PM

"Then little Hawk, here is some advice.

Fuck off and discuss the Canadian election."

Ya wanna look at that one again, Jack?


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:56 PM

Then little Hawk, here is some advice.

Fuck off and discuss the Canadian election.

The bullshit you bless us with is amusing when you don't get personal. But now you are getting personal. That isn't funny.

AND NO!! It has not been shown that he has the determination. She's GOT looks and luck, she has been handled by Rove Proteges and she has been reading speech written by people, who according to you don't even know or care whom they are quoting.

A Vice President needs to be responsible for what they say. Their job is to talk and to know what the fuck they are saying.

Campaigning is their interview process. If they are not responsible during the campaign are they suddenly going to grow up to govern? George Bush didn't.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: irishenglish
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:43 PM

Politicians use speechwriters, its a fact. There are a lot of speeches given every day by McCain, Obama, Palin and Biden. The candidates would have time for precious little else if they chose to write every single word themselves. But the good politicians will exert more of THEMSELVES into a speech, and at the very least, when some underling speechwriter includes some rare and seldom heard quote, its up to that politician to accept the consequences. In other words, she didn't write the speech, she rehearsed it, she ad-libbed in a few spots, threw in some of her own personal accomplishments. She may not have known every reference in there, but as the speech giver, she is accountable in my mind. Its up to her to give her speechwriters and assistants a clear vision of what she wants to express. Now some will say that it was all so quick-the announcement, and then, boom, she's on stage at the convention. Maybe too quick for her to absorb all that. But to my mind, that's one of my beefs with her as a choice. There are some on here who will argue the experience issue, I was one of them. But that confidence that comes with knowing that while you may not be speaking your own words, copyright Sarah Palin, you are speaking words you know, not just reading words.


I believe this is the quote Little Hawk was referring too:

To quote an expert: "Of course the people don't want war....that is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." ------- Hermann Goering (Adolf Hitler's deputy) at the Nuremberg trials, 1946, quoted in "Nuremberg Diary" by G M Gilbert

I believe there is more to the quote, so apologies LH. But LH, I disagree somewhat with your assesment. When that quote became popular during the beginning of the Iraq War, I don't believe those of us who used it were agreeing with it in any sense. More like a frightening resemblance to what was going on amongst those of us who were protesting. Ok, I can "agree" in that sense, but thats not an approval of the quote. Words can be a lot of things LH, they can be equally beautiful and spiteful. For me this is not a partisan issue, so no offense, but simmer down. Goering wrote a lot of other things too I'm sure-but you would attribute it to him wouldn't you if you were giving a speech?


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:43 PM

You think she might, Jack? Well, anything's possible, I guess. She's got the determination for the job, that's for sure.

I do despise your partisan mudslinging. No pretence about it. That goes for both Republicans and Democrats. I despise your partisanship and your entire ludicrous presidential election process.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:40 PM

I have to amend my earlier statement.

You are not search our haystacks for needles, you are looking for them in our shit. Our shit which you pretend to despise.

Sarah Palin might one day make a fine Presidential candidate, when and if she does something or learns enough to be qualified. She could start with taking responsibility for what she says.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:32 PM

And if she does not please Jack the Sailor, then she DEFINITELY has no business running for (Vice) President! End of story.

Hey, man...she's not perfect in either her nature or her decisions or her due diligence. Aren't you delighted that that is so? I know I am. I would be very worried if she was perfect.

Think how tough it would be for the Democrats if she never made any errors at all. That would be the final nightmare. Pray that it doesn't happen and keep watching for more little needles to pull out of haystacks. You know the Republicans are doing that kind of petty shit, so why shouldn't you, right?

Yadda, yadda...


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:22 PM

Kennedy has reason to hate the man. A man who called for his father's murder before it happened.

If Palin is quoting a man who said such words, the public has a right to know. If Palin does not know the source of her own words, she has no business running for President. The least she could have done is asked the speechwriter who she was quoting.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:20 PM

"No, the problem is that Palin ignorantly adopted the authority of the writer, and now we see what that authority was."


               No, we don't know what the authority was. If Pat Buchanan plagerized the piece in an earlier book, there's a very good chance that the "writer" mentioned was Pat Buchanan, and in Palin's case, she could have been referencing the speech writer.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:14 PM

I agree that the Goering quote is different, and in the way you describe.

This controversy, however, is a tempest in a teapot. It indicates only that someone on Sarah Palin's team, some individual has read Westbrook Pegler and likes that particular quote...or they may have heard it from someone else. If you want, start a witchhunt to find out who that original someone is, but it has little to do with the substance of this election campaign.

Do you get that I am drawing attention to the mean-spirited and petty attitude of partisan people on BOTH sides of this election? If you don't like it in others, why do so many of you do it yourselves?


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:12 PM

Little Hawk

I get your point. I don't agree. Live with it.

Your stove has just as many problems as this one, its just that your problems are different. The haystacks that you search for "needles" to complain about is our conversations. That makes you a very small SAUCE pan in the scheme of things.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:08 PM

It shouldn't be too hard to find positive statements about the culture of small-town America from any number of sources, since that sentiment has been expressed by many writers over the last 200 years. You don't need to read Nazi ideologues to find a quote like that. The fact that his writings were used at all says something significant about the mindset of Palin's team.

The Goering thing is quite different - if anybody was an expert on manipulative warmongering, he was, so it's telling to have him saying how he did it in his own words, and to find that those words are such a close match to what the American state is doing at present.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Amos
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:06 PM

HEre's one for ya, PD: "Barack Obama's campaign offers the possibility, for the first time in many years, to provisde a leader in the White House who understands where AMerica's greatness got wasted and how it can be recovered, and whop priomises a leadership style that has more intelligence, grace and human wisdom in it than your average Bud-sponsored Reality show or Superbowl game. This comes as a terrific and much needed relief to thinking Americans everywhere."

signed,

A Temporary Democrat


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: pdq
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:00 PM

It was a damn speech.

Without speeches, politicians would just stand there and have nothing to say.

All presidents and candidates have speechwriters. The last to wright his own 100% was Calvin Coolidge and he bored people stiff.

Talk issues for once and say someting positive now and then. Ronald Reagan did and left office as one of the most beloved exitees in history.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:57 PM

That's what you'd like the problem to be, Richard...so for you, that is the problem.

It's one more little pimple on the face of a very ugly presidential campaign, that's all.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:55 PM

No, the problem is that Palin ignorantly adopted the authority of the writer, and now we see what that authority was.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:51 PM

I think a single quote, even from someone as spurious as Kennedy mentions, is not enough to indict Palin. She may have been clueless about the source, more likely the speech-writer was careless in choice and application.

Context is everything, and since the words shifted to a new venue where most people hadn't heard of him (I've never heard of him) it acquires a new sense of meaning. Did she say "and in the words of the avowed racist Westbrook Pegler" or did she even name him? Were there enough of the words in textual order that Pegler used them they can actually be linked back to him and only to him, or is it a throw-away quote that is also used, for example, by Billy Graham or Pat Robertson?

There are a lot of good quotes and epigrams out there that have been laundered by various literary means, or so closely honed that the context can be dropped. Kennedy may be remarking on one of those.

SRS

The public is wonderfully tolerant. It forgives everything except genius. - Oscar Wilde


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:45 PM

You're still not getting my point, Jack. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the small town values Pegler espoused included bigotry and racism. I bet they did...implicitly.

However, there is nothing bigoted or racist in the short quote that Palin used in her speech, so what is the problem with it? I'll tell you what the problem is...for both you and Alice. The problem is simply that Palin said it and that you're against her, and that you would like to find any way possible to attack her and discredit her...and there's nothing more to it than that.

You're just engaging in the usual partisan sniping, just like pdq is...only from the opposite side of the front line, that's all.

Two sets of pots calling kettles black and searching haystacks for needles to complain about.


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Subject: RFKennedy, Jr.: Palin quotes fascist (Pegler)
From: Genie
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:44 PM

Little Hawk speaks truth.   
Sometimes "consider the source" doesn't really apply, and I think that's the case here.

Even frequent liars* sometimes speak the truth. Even fools sometimes say something wise.
And hateful people sometimes say something that's not hateful.

Absolutely nothing wrong with the statement "We grow good people in our small towns, with honesty and sincerity and dignity."

Maybe what's more relevant - since the Repubs like to drag up the old "plagiarism" charge against Joe Biden for forgetting on one occasion to acknowledge the source of a quote he'd been using in his speeches - is that Palin's speech failed to give proper credit to the source.

Granted, by citing "a writer," she was not claiming authorship of the statement, but I'm not sure that's a lot more fair use of someone's words than just borrowing a phrase and using it without reference to any source.    Of course, the speechwriter - and maybe Palin herself - may have been fully aware of Pegler as the source but equally aware of the risks of citing his name.   (That would show real guts, right?)


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:44 PM

It is kind of amusing hearing someone imply that Obama has said nothing positive.

On the other hand, while McCain has been saying that the fundamentals of the economy are sound the Dow has dropped 2000 points and gas has gone up 25%.

Does it count as positive when it is completely untrue?

On the third had. The speech where Palin used that quote was one of the most snide, smug and negative, I have ever heard.   Is it ironic that the only positive part was written by a NAZI?


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Peace
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:41 PM

I think too many people give a shit about Sarah. She's a twit, and she gives people focus so they do NOT concentrate on McCain. Smart move on their part. Foolish on ours. IMO.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:37 PM

Ha! Just shows how selective your partisan memory is, doesn't it, pdq?

They (both the Democratic and Republican candidates) have ALL said lots of positive stuff...Obama probably the most...but none of it is remembered except by their avid supporters who also can remember absolutely nothing positive that "the other side" ever said, it seems.

What a bunch of pots calling kettles black! Get real. You've all become so subjective in your knee jerk hatreds of "the other party" that calling the next move you will make is about as easy as deciding what a hornet will do when you wave your hands frantically in its face.

It will sting. Your political mutual discourse is on about the same level.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:36 PM

Pegler was apparently was a bigot and a racist. If you do not think that the small town values HE espoused included bigotry and racism. God for you. On the other hand, Robert Kennedy was perfectly in the right to question someone for having read the man's work and liked it enough to quote it. The question begged is what else have the people crafting the Republican message read.

Also, Isn't Palin ultimately responsible for what comes from her own mouth. If she becomes President should we allow her to blame her speechwriters for her mistakes?


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: pdq
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:25 PM

"To quote something positive that Pegler says about small town Americans is not to sympathize with fascism or racism."


It's also refreshing to here anything positive this election. Not one positive statement has come from a Democrat that I can remember.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:04 PM

I think you are missing my point, Jack. Do you know the Hermann Goering quote I am alluding to? It was not an espousal of Nazi philosophy, it was a candid admission (at his Nuremberg trial) of how any government can bamboozle a peacable-minded population into supporting a foreign war...and how all governments do it whenever it suits them to.

To quote it is NOT to sympathize with Naziism...but to shine a light on how governments use war propaganda to manipulate their public.

To quote something positive that Pegler says about small town Americans is not to sympathize with fascism or racism.

If she had been making an entire speech about the works and career of Mr Pegler rather than quoting a brief line or two from something he wrote, then it would have been incumbent upon her to refer to the entire nature of his whole attitude and philosophy, and if she didn't agree with it, then to say so.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:54 PM

What is offensive about the quote itself? Nothing. It's just the standard celebration of small town America, and we get that all the time in USA politics. It's a vote-getting techique that both parties are very fond of.

Politicians usually read speeches that some speechwriters put together for them. As long as the speech itself says something that makes sense to them in the context of the speech, what else actually matters about it? Does it matter what writer you lift a phrase from if the phrase says something you want to say?

Well....it matters to opponents, doesn't it? Because if that writer is seen as "a bad person" then they can smear the speaker by association. I call that mere political opportunism.

If you're saying, Alice, that Sarah Palin lacks experience and lacks full awareness of all she should be aware of in the role she is now playing...heh! Well, I'm in agreement with you there.

But you cannot establish guilt by association (as the Republicans tried to do, for instance, with Obama and Reverend Wright).


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:54 PM

If Hitler said that the volkswagon was invented so that hard working young could drive to work, it would not be unfair to point out that a lot of the work Hitler had in mind was genocide, oppression, conquest and plain old murder.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:52 PM

Clueless?
In what respect Mr. Gibson?


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:52 PM

Little Hawk,

If you quote someone, especially if you acknowledge the quote, you borrow their credibility and their context becomes yours. Civilized people do not employ NAZIs to describe their point of view because to employ the words fairly introduces the context of the words into the debate.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Alice
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:43 PM

Yes, I think if she knew who Pegler was and knew it was a quote from him, she would have stayed away from it. But, in the speech she said she was quoting a "writer" and in this campaign, seems like with a big convention speech, you'd want all the sources really researched when introducing yourself to the country and millions of listeners. Just mouthing what she is fed, and that's why I say she seems clueless of details.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:39 PM

She probably didn't think she was quoting anyone. If she thought she was quoting Pat Buchanan, she probably would have referenced Buchanan. The speech writers probably hi-jacked it as their own material--or maybe even thought it was their own material--and put it in the speech. It doesn't sound very original or writer specific. It isn't anything that couldn't be generated by any number of different people at different times and/or places.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:33 PM

GWB's grandfather conspired with the 3rd Reich and profitted handsomely. He was fined by the FTC but it didn't effect his profits.
Guilt by association is never as tangible as guilt by one'sown stupidity. That is something everyone understands.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Alice
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:31 PM

I don't think it is petty. I think the point made here is that she is just being fed lines she doesn't even understand. They could have come up with some other way to describe small town American without quoting Pegler. She knew it was a quote, as in the script she read, it referred to "a writer". Don't you think she would want to know who she was quoting? Maybe she thought she was quoting Pat Buchanan, since he used the quote in his book... but he credited Pegler and in a complimentary way.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:13 PM

People find useful quotes where they may. Quoting a line or two that you happen to agree with from some body of writing is not tantamount to agreeing with everything that writer ever said or stood for.

For instance, many here have quoted some very perceptive words that Hermann Goering once said about how governments bamboozle their hapless citizens into going to war. By quoting those words, however, a person is NOT saying that he agrees with everything that Hermann Goering ever said or did.

If he were, then some of the most fervent liberals here would instantly become "Nazi sympathizers" merely because they had quoted a brief (and accurate and sensible) comment from Hermann Goering! Think about it.

No one, not even Hermann Goering or Westbrook Pegler, fails to now and then say something that is accurate or that you can agree with.

So why try to play the "guilt by association game" on Sarah Palin because she quoted something Pegler wrote about small town people? So he said, "We grow good people in our small towns, with honesty and sincerity and dignity"?

Well? So what? What is wrongful and offensive about such a statement? Is it a fascist statement? No. It is a statement which, in itself, says nothing bad about anyone.

If it's okay for a liberal to quote an inoffensive (and entirely sensible) statement by Hermann Goering about techniques of government war propaganda, it's okay for Sarah Palin to quote an inoffensive statement by Westbrook Pegler about small town people in America, regardless of what his views may be about other matters such as race or Robert Kennedy. I detest Pegler's attitude toward RFK, but I can't fault him for saying "We grow good people in our small towns, with honesty and sincerity and dignity" nor can I fault Sarah Palin for using that quote. What is she doing when she uses it? Standard political stuff. The Republicans have always done with with small town rural America, and she's pandering for votes to their usual audience, that's all.

Stop sinking to this petty level, and deal with some real stuff...

I don't like Sarah Palin one bit either, I really don't, but I would not go after her over some petty guilt by association tactics. I would go after her on matters of substance, such as her past record in government and public service...and her stated policy positions.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:02 PM

I suspect this is another one of those Daily.Kos things that will end up costing Obama more votes.


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