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BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist

Alice 15 Sep 08 - 03:45 PM
Donuel 15 Sep 08 - 03:48 PM
Alice 15 Sep 08 - 03:48 PM
Amos 15 Sep 08 - 03:53 PM
Donuel 15 Sep 08 - 03:54 PM
Riginslinger 15 Sep 08 - 04:02 PM
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Alice 15 Sep 08 - 04:31 PM
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GUEST,Jack the Sailor 15 Sep 08 - 04:52 PM
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GUEST,Jack the Sailor 15 Sep 08 - 04:54 PM
Little Hawk 15 Sep 08 - 04:54 PM
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pdq 15 Sep 08 - 05:25 PM
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Little Hawk 15 Sep 08 - 05:37 PM
Peace 15 Sep 08 - 05:41 PM
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pdq 15 Sep 08 - 07:37 PM
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Subject: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Alice
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 03:45 PM

Today written by Robert F. Kennedy, Jr, on Palin's quote in her acceptance speech:

'Fascist writer Westbrook Pegler, an avowed racist who Sarah Palin approvingly quoted in her acceptance speech for the moral superiority of small town values, expressed his fervent hope about my father, Robert F. Kennedy, as he contemplated his own run for the presidency in 1965, that "some white patriot of the Southern tier will spatter his spoonful of brains in public premises before the snow flies."

It might be worth asking Governor Palin for a tally of the other favorites from her reading list.'

Link here

click


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 03:48 PM

birds of a feather...


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Alice
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 03:48 PM

wikipedia on Westbrook Pegler
============
Interest in Pegler was recently revived when Republican Vice-Presidential nominee Sarah Palin quoted him in her acceptance speech at the Republican National Convention in St. Paul, Minnesota. "We grow good people in our small towns, with honesty and sincerity and dignity", she said, a Pegler quote that also appeared in the book "Right From the Beginning" by Pat Buchanan. She did not acknowledge Pegler by name, merely citing 'a writer'.[2] The speech was written by Matthew Scully, a senior speech writer for George W. Bush.[3]
----------------

I wonder if Sarah Palin even knew who was being quoted. I kind of doubt it. She seems clueless about a lot of details.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Amos
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 03:53 PM

SHe ha smost likely never heard Pegler's name before this week, I would bet.



A


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 03:54 PM

The speech was written by George W Bush's speech writer
so she is just reading the script.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:02 PM

I suspect this is another one of those Daily.Kos things that will end up costing Obama more votes.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:13 PM

People find useful quotes where they may. Quoting a line or two that you happen to agree with from some body of writing is not tantamount to agreeing with everything that writer ever said or stood for.

For instance, many here have quoted some very perceptive words that Hermann Goering once said about how governments bamboozle their hapless citizens into going to war. By quoting those words, however, a person is NOT saying that he agrees with everything that Hermann Goering ever said or did.

If he were, then some of the most fervent liberals here would instantly become "Nazi sympathizers" merely because they had quoted a brief (and accurate and sensible) comment from Hermann Goering! Think about it.

No one, not even Hermann Goering or Westbrook Pegler, fails to now and then say something that is accurate or that you can agree with.

So why try to play the "guilt by association game" on Sarah Palin because she quoted something Pegler wrote about small town people? So he said, "We grow good people in our small towns, with honesty and sincerity and dignity"?

Well? So what? What is wrongful and offensive about such a statement? Is it a fascist statement? No. It is a statement which, in itself, says nothing bad about anyone.

If it's okay for a liberal to quote an inoffensive (and entirely sensible) statement by Hermann Goering about techniques of government war propaganda, it's okay for Sarah Palin to quote an inoffensive statement by Westbrook Pegler about small town people in America, regardless of what his views may be about other matters such as race or Robert Kennedy. I detest Pegler's attitude toward RFK, but I can't fault him for saying "We grow good people in our small towns, with honesty and sincerity and dignity" nor can I fault Sarah Palin for using that quote. What is she doing when she uses it? Standard political stuff. The Republicans have always done with with small town rural America, and she's pandering for votes to their usual audience, that's all.

Stop sinking to this petty level, and deal with some real stuff...

I don't like Sarah Palin one bit either, I really don't, but I would not go after her over some petty guilt by association tactics. I would go after her on matters of substance, such as her past record in government and public service...and her stated policy positions.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Alice
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:31 PM

I don't think it is petty. I think the point made here is that she is just being fed lines she doesn't even understand. They could have come up with some other way to describe small town American without quoting Pegler. She knew it was a quote, as in the script she read, it referred to "a writer". Don't you think she would want to know who she was quoting? Maybe she thought she was quoting Pat Buchanan, since he used the quote in his book... but he credited Pegler and in a complimentary way.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:33 PM

GWB's grandfather conspired with the 3rd Reich and profitted handsomely. He was fined by the FTC but it didn't effect his profits.
Guilt by association is never as tangible as guilt by one'sown stupidity. That is something everyone understands.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:39 PM

She probably didn't think she was quoting anyone. If she thought she was quoting Pat Buchanan, she probably would have referenced Buchanan. The speech writers probably hi-jacked it as their own material--or maybe even thought it was their own material--and put it in the speech. It doesn't sound very original or writer specific. It isn't anything that couldn't be generated by any number of different people at different times and/or places.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Alice
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:43 PM

Yes, I think if she knew who Pegler was and knew it was a quote from him, she would have stayed away from it. But, in the speech she said she was quoting a "writer" and in this campaign, seems like with a big convention speech, you'd want all the sources really researched when introducing yourself to the country and millions of listeners. Just mouthing what she is fed, and that's why I say she seems clueless of details.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:52 PM

Little Hawk,

If you quote someone, especially if you acknowledge the quote, you borrow their credibility and their context becomes yours. Civilized people do not employ NAZIs to describe their point of view because to employ the words fairly introduces the context of the words into the debate.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:52 PM

Clueless?
In what respect Mr. Gibson?


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:54 PM

If Hitler said that the volkswagon was invented so that hard working young could drive to work, it would not be unfair to point out that a lot of the work Hitler had in mind was genocide, oppression, conquest and plain old murder.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:54 PM

What is offensive about the quote itself? Nothing. It's just the standard celebration of small town America, and we get that all the time in USA politics. It's a vote-getting techique that both parties are very fond of.

Politicians usually read speeches that some speechwriters put together for them. As long as the speech itself says something that makes sense to them in the context of the speech, what else actually matters about it? Does it matter what writer you lift a phrase from if the phrase says something you want to say?

Well....it matters to opponents, doesn't it? Because if that writer is seen as "a bad person" then they can smear the speaker by association. I call that mere political opportunism.

If you're saying, Alice, that Sarah Palin lacks experience and lacks full awareness of all she should be aware of in the role she is now playing...heh! Well, I'm in agreement with you there.

But you cannot establish guilt by association (as the Republicans tried to do, for instance, with Obama and Reverend Wright).


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:04 PM

I think you are missing my point, Jack. Do you know the Hermann Goering quote I am alluding to? It was not an espousal of Nazi philosophy, it was a candid admission (at his Nuremberg trial) of how any government can bamboozle a peacable-minded population into supporting a foreign war...and how all governments do it whenever it suits them to.

To quote it is NOT to sympathize with Naziism...but to shine a light on how governments use war propaganda to manipulate their public.

To quote something positive that Pegler says about small town Americans is not to sympathize with fascism or racism.

If she had been making an entire speech about the works and career of Mr Pegler rather than quoting a brief line or two from something he wrote, then it would have been incumbent upon her to refer to the entire nature of his whole attitude and philosophy, and if she didn't agree with it, then to say so.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: pdq
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:25 PM

"To quote something positive that Pegler says about small town Americans is not to sympathize with fascism or racism."


It's also refreshing to here anything positive this election. Not one positive statement has come from a Democrat that I can remember.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:36 PM

Pegler was apparently was a bigot and a racist. If you do not think that the small town values HE espoused included bigotry and racism. God for you. On the other hand, Robert Kennedy was perfectly in the right to question someone for having read the man's work and liked it enough to quote it. The question begged is what else have the people crafting the Republican message read.

Also, Isn't Palin ultimately responsible for what comes from her own mouth. If she becomes President should we allow her to blame her speechwriters for her mistakes?


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:37 PM

Ha! Just shows how selective your partisan memory is, doesn't it, pdq?

They (both the Democratic and Republican candidates) have ALL said lots of positive stuff...Obama probably the most...but none of it is remembered except by their avid supporters who also can remember absolutely nothing positive that "the other side" ever said, it seems.

What a bunch of pots calling kettles black! Get real. You've all become so subjective in your knee jerk hatreds of "the other party" that calling the next move you will make is about as easy as deciding what a hornet will do when you wave your hands frantically in its face.

It will sting. Your political mutual discourse is on about the same level.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Peace
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:41 PM

I think too many people give a shit about Sarah. She's a twit, and she gives people focus so they do NOT concentrate on McCain. Smart move on their part. Foolish on ours. IMO.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:44 PM

It is kind of amusing hearing someone imply that Obama has said nothing positive.

On the other hand, while McCain has been saying that the fundamentals of the economy are sound the Dow has dropped 2000 points and gas has gone up 25%.

Does it count as positive when it is completely untrue?

On the third had. The speech where Palin used that quote was one of the most snide, smug and negative, I have ever heard.   Is it ironic that the only positive part was written by a NAZI?


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Subject: RFKennedy, Jr.: Palin quotes fascist (Pegler)
From: Genie
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:44 PM

Little Hawk speaks truth.   
Sometimes "consider the source" doesn't really apply, and I think that's the case here.

Even frequent liars* sometimes speak the truth. Even fools sometimes say something wise.
And hateful people sometimes say something that's not hateful.

Absolutely nothing wrong with the statement "We grow good people in our small towns, with honesty and sincerity and dignity."

Maybe what's more relevant - since the Repubs like to drag up the old "plagiarism" charge against Joe Biden for forgetting on one occasion to acknowledge the source of a quote he'd been using in his speeches - is that Palin's speech failed to give proper credit to the source.

Granted, by citing "a writer," she was not claiming authorship of the statement, but I'm not sure that's a lot more fair use of someone's words than just borrowing a phrase and using it without reference to any source.    Of course, the speechwriter - and maybe Palin herself - may have been fully aware of Pegler as the source but equally aware of the risks of citing his name.   (That would show real guts, right?)


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:45 PM

You're still not getting my point, Jack. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the small town values Pegler espoused included bigotry and racism. I bet they did...implicitly.

However, there is nothing bigoted or racist in the short quote that Palin used in her speech, so what is the problem with it? I'll tell you what the problem is...for both you and Alice. The problem is simply that Palin said it and that you're against her, and that you would like to find any way possible to attack her and discredit her...and there's nothing more to it than that.

You're just engaging in the usual partisan sniping, just like pdq is...only from the opposite side of the front line, that's all.

Two sets of pots calling kettles black and searching haystacks for needles to complain about.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:51 PM

I think a single quote, even from someone as spurious as Kennedy mentions, is not enough to indict Palin. She may have been clueless about the source, more likely the speech-writer was careless in choice and application.

Context is everything, and since the words shifted to a new venue where most people hadn't heard of him (I've never heard of him) it acquires a new sense of meaning. Did she say "and in the words of the avowed racist Westbrook Pegler" or did she even name him? Were there enough of the words in textual order that Pegler used them they can actually be linked back to him and only to him, or is it a throw-away quote that is also used, for example, by Billy Graham or Pat Robertson?

There are a lot of good quotes and epigrams out there that have been laundered by various literary means, or so closely honed that the context can be dropped. Kennedy may be remarking on one of those.

SRS

The public is wonderfully tolerant. It forgives everything except genius. - Oscar Wilde


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:55 PM

No, the problem is that Palin ignorantly adopted the authority of the writer, and now we see what that authority was.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:57 PM

That's what you'd like the problem to be, Richard...so for you, that is the problem.

It's one more little pimple on the face of a very ugly presidential campaign, that's all.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: pdq
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:00 PM

It was a damn speech.

Without speeches, politicians would just stand there and have nothing to say.

All presidents and candidates have speechwriters. The last to wright his own 100% was Calvin Coolidge and he bored people stiff.

Talk issues for once and say someting positive now and then. Ronald Reagan did and left office as one of the most beloved exitees in history.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Amos
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:06 PM

HEre's one for ya, PD: "Barack Obama's campaign offers the possibility, for the first time in many years, to provisde a leader in the White House who understands where AMerica's greatness got wasted and how it can be recovered, and whop priomises a leadership style that has more intelligence, grace and human wisdom in it than your average Bud-sponsored Reality show or Superbowl game. This comes as a terrific and much needed relief to thinking Americans everywhere."

signed,

A Temporary Democrat


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:08 PM

It shouldn't be too hard to find positive statements about the culture of small-town America from any number of sources, since that sentiment has been expressed by many writers over the last 200 years. You don't need to read Nazi ideologues to find a quote like that. The fact that his writings were used at all says something significant about the mindset of Palin's team.

The Goering thing is quite different - if anybody was an expert on manipulative warmongering, he was, so it's telling to have him saying how he did it in his own words, and to find that those words are such a close match to what the American state is doing at present.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:12 PM

Little Hawk

I get your point. I don't agree. Live with it.

Your stove has just as many problems as this one, its just that your problems are different. The haystacks that you search for "needles" to complain about is our conversations. That makes you a very small SAUCE pan in the scheme of things.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:14 PM

I agree that the Goering quote is different, and in the way you describe.

This controversy, however, is a tempest in a teapot. It indicates only that someone on Sarah Palin's team, some individual has read Westbrook Pegler and likes that particular quote...or they may have heard it from someone else. If you want, start a witchhunt to find out who that original someone is, but it has little to do with the substance of this election campaign.

Do you get that I am drawing attention to the mean-spirited and petty attitude of partisan people on BOTH sides of this election? If you don't like it in others, why do so many of you do it yourselves?


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:20 PM

"No, the problem is that Palin ignorantly adopted the authority of the writer, and now we see what that authority was."


               No, we don't know what the authority was. If Pat Buchanan plagerized the piece in an earlier book, there's a very good chance that the "writer" mentioned was Pat Buchanan, and in Palin's case, she could have been referencing the speech writer.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:22 PM

Kennedy has reason to hate the man. A man who called for his father's murder before it happened.

If Palin is quoting a man who said such words, the public has a right to know. If Palin does not know the source of her own words, she has no business running for President. The least she could have done is asked the speechwriter who she was quoting.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:32 PM

And if she does not please Jack the Sailor, then she DEFINITELY has no business running for (Vice) President! End of story.

Hey, man...she's not perfect in either her nature or her decisions or her due diligence. Aren't you delighted that that is so? I know I am. I would be very worried if she was perfect.

Think how tough it would be for the Democrats if she never made any errors at all. That would be the final nightmare. Pray that it doesn't happen and keep watching for more little needles to pull out of haystacks. You know the Republicans are doing that kind of petty shit, so why shouldn't you, right?

Yadda, yadda...


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:40 PM

I have to amend my earlier statement.

You are not search our haystacks for needles, you are looking for them in our shit. Our shit which you pretend to despise.

Sarah Palin might one day make a fine Presidential candidate, when and if she does something or learns enough to be qualified. She could start with taking responsibility for what she says.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:43 PM

You think she might, Jack? Well, anything's possible, I guess. She's got the determination for the job, that's for sure.

I do despise your partisan mudslinging. No pretence about it. That goes for both Republicans and Democrats. I despise your partisanship and your entire ludicrous presidential election process.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: irishenglish
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:43 PM

Politicians use speechwriters, its a fact. There are a lot of speeches given every day by McCain, Obama, Palin and Biden. The candidates would have time for precious little else if they chose to write every single word themselves. But the good politicians will exert more of THEMSELVES into a speech, and at the very least, when some underling speechwriter includes some rare and seldom heard quote, its up to that politician to accept the consequences. In other words, she didn't write the speech, she rehearsed it, she ad-libbed in a few spots, threw in some of her own personal accomplishments. She may not have known every reference in there, but as the speech giver, she is accountable in my mind. Its up to her to give her speechwriters and assistants a clear vision of what she wants to express. Now some will say that it was all so quick-the announcement, and then, boom, she's on stage at the convention. Maybe too quick for her to absorb all that. But to my mind, that's one of my beefs with her as a choice. There are some on here who will argue the experience issue, I was one of them. But that confidence that comes with knowing that while you may not be speaking your own words, copyright Sarah Palin, you are speaking words you know, not just reading words.


I believe this is the quote Little Hawk was referring too:

To quote an expert: "Of course the people don't want war....that is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." ------- Hermann Goering (Adolf Hitler's deputy) at the Nuremberg trials, 1946, quoted in "Nuremberg Diary" by G M Gilbert

I believe there is more to the quote, so apologies LH. But LH, I disagree somewhat with your assesment. When that quote became popular during the beginning of the Iraq War, I don't believe those of us who used it were agreeing with it in any sense. More like a frightening resemblance to what was going on amongst those of us who were protesting. Ok, I can "agree" in that sense, but thats not an approval of the quote. Words can be a lot of things LH, they can be equally beautiful and spiteful. For me this is not a partisan issue, so no offense, but simmer down. Goering wrote a lot of other things too I'm sure-but you would attribute it to him wouldn't you if you were giving a speech?


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:56 PM

Then little Hawk, here is some advice.

Fuck off and discuss the Canadian election.

The bullshit you bless us with is amusing when you don't get personal. But now you are getting personal. That isn't funny.

AND NO!! It has not been shown that he has the determination. She's GOT looks and luck, she has been handled by Rove Proteges and she has been reading speech written by people, who according to you don't even know or care whom they are quoting.

A Vice President needs to be responsible for what they say. Their job is to talk and to know what the fuck they are saying.

Campaigning is their interview process. If they are not responsible during the campaign are they suddenly going to grow up to govern? George Bush didn't.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Peace
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 07:01 PM

"Then little Hawk, here is some advice.

Fuck off and discuss the Canadian election."

Ya wanna look at that one again, Jack?


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 07:24 PM

I'm fine with it I pay taxes here, have campaigned and as a legal resident have donated to the campaigns. I certainly have a right to discuss it. On the other hand, Little Hawk wagging his finger at me and saying he despises the politics of my adopted country and trying to pretend that he is superior to pdq and me causes on thought to come to my mind.

Better politics starts at home.

or put more simply, If he doesn't like US politics, he doesn't have to involve himself in it.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: pdq
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 07:37 PM

Most of us are here to have fun. I think all the regular posters have merit, me included. The personal attacks are getting hard to justify. I am not saying who is guilty be we all are at times. I will do someting else tonight. I just got a new CD of a Grateful Dead (all acoustic!) concert. Mudcat cooling-off period - substitue Jerry with Martin guitar - good day, all.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 07:45 PM

Look, I have no problem with Little Hawk making his peanut gallery comments. I'm just saying they are more palatable when he is not singling people out or attributing baser motives to those who disagree with him.

But pdq makes a good point.

I'm going to listen to Bob Marley and practice "Redemption song."

See y'all.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 08:48 PM

Well, lets try a comparison.

Is it more significant that Palin quotes a murder-inciting fascist, or that Obama might (but probably did not) call Palin a pig (as she clearly is, in the trough to the bottom of her snout)?


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 08:57 PM

Then little Hawk, here is some advice.

Fuck off and discuss the Canadian election.

The bullshit you bless us with is amusing when you don't get personal. But now you are getting personal. That isn't funny.


and

Little Hawk wagging his finger at me and saying he despises the politics of my adopted country and trying to pretend that he is superior to pdq and me causes on thought to come to my mind.

Better politics starts at home.


From a household that claims to abhor personal attacks, this is entirely uncalled for. Especially since Little Hawk _isn't_ a hot head and doesn't start fights or swear at people.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: PoppaGator
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 09:28 PM

Little Hawk is not a hothead, not usually, which is why I was very much taken aback at what he wrote to Jack just above. In this particular instance, I certainly felt that LH was way off-base, uncharacteristically so.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 10:22 PM

"From a household"??!!?? You need to take the chip off your shoulder lady.

You certainly don't have to turn a disagreement between LH and me into a backhanded attack on my wife.

Jeepers! Talk about a hot head!

LOL!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:41 PM

Hey, Jack, I did not mean that I despise you...or pdq...or anyone else here. I don't despise anyone taking part in this discussion on an individual or personal basis.

When I said that "I do despise your partisan mudslinging. No pretence about it. That goes for both Republicans and Democrats. I despise your partisanship and your entire ludicrous presidential election process."..................I was NOT referring to specific individuals here with the word "your". I was referring to the USA's Democratic and Republican parties themselves...huge political organizations which sling mud at each other. And I was saying that I despise certain forms of negative behaviour that those parties pander to: such as mudslinging and personal attacks. They are forms of behaviour that worsen the general political climate we all must function in.

I despise the Canadian parties too, frankly, because they also engage in the same kind of cynical campaign tactics. They lie, deceive, mudsling, and exaggerate. They sieze upon the most trivial things to try and hurt their opponents (like that business about a bird shitting on Dion's shoulder).

That does not mean I despise individual Canadian citizens or individual American citizens or politicians themselves or people on this forum. It's the powerful organizations and great power structures that I despise...not the ordinary people who are just the foot soldiers and who are out there doing the best they know how.

The comment was not directed at Jack personally. It was directed at the very prevalent mudslinging and bad behaviour I see happening in this election campaign and being pushed by party strategists on both sides. People get caught up in it. I wish they would find it embarrassing enough that they would not even want to get caught up in it.

I hope that clarifies what I said to some extent.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:45 PM

Dang. I somehow totally screwed up the italics html in the above post. (sigh)

Oh, well...


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:46 PM

You are making assumptions, JtS. And you see attacks everywhere, but today you launched one and got called on it. So, let's see, let's call it an attack on your wife instead of what it is--your misbehavior and someone telling you to cool it.

Can we stand 50 more days of high-flown partisan lunacy? Especially when there are a few who fly off the handle and start calling names and suggesting others stick to discussing politics in 'their own county,' like this U.S. election isn't staring the world in the face?

Give me a break.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:48 PM

Every USA election stares the world in the face, but none more than this one. If the world was voting, Obama would win by a landslide.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:34 AM

Hey....If JtS takes a break Little Hawk is off the hook. Nuts to that!

Lookit here Hawk......I despise you AND I despise Winona Ryder AND anyone who doesn't pay homage to Cheech Wizard AND anyone who thinks Major Tom wasn't a simpleass, psychotic dickhead! Go toast a dachshund you pathetic, miserable, broke-dick mamalucca!

Spaw




THE JOHN BIRCH SOCIETY
(Michael Brown)--performed by The Chad Mitchell Trio

Oh we're meeting at the courthouse at eight o'clock tonight
You just come in the door and take the first turn to the right
Be careful when you get there, we'd hate to be bereft
But we're taking down the names of everybody turning left

'Cause we're the John Birch Society, the John Birch Society
Here to save this country from a communistic plot
We're the John Birch Society, help us swell the ranks
To get this movement started, we need lots of tools and cranks

Now there's no one that we're certain that the Kremlin doesn't touch
We think that Westbrook Pegler doth protest a bit too much
We only hail the hero from whom we got our name
We're not sure what he did, but he's our hero all the same


Join the John Birch Society, the John Birch Society
Socialism is the ism dismalist of all
Join the John Birch Society, there's so much to do
Have you heard they're serving vodka at the W.C.T.U.

Well you've heard about the agents that we've already named
Well M.C.A. has agents that are flatly unashamed
We're after Rosie Clooney, we've gotten Pinky Lee
And the day we get Red Skelton won't that be a victory

For we're the John Birch Society, the John Birch Society
Norman Vincent Peale may think he's kidding us along
But the John Birch Society knows he spilled the beans
He keeps on preaching brotherhood, but we know what he means

We'll teach you how to spot 'em in the city or the sticks
'Cause even Jasper Junction is just full of Bolsheviks
The CIA's subversive and so's the FCC
There's no one left but thee and we, and we're not sure of thee

Oh we're the John Birch Society, the John Birch Society
Here to save our country from a Communistic plot
Join the John Birch Society, holding off the Reds
We'll use our hands and hearts, and if we must, we'll use our heads

BRIDGE: (O beautiful, for spacious skies, for amber waves of grain)

spoken: Friends, do you want Justice Warren to be your Commissar?
Do you want Mrs. Khrushchev in there with the DAR?
You cannot trust your neighbors, or even next-of-kin
If mommy is a Commie then you gotta turn her in

To the John Birch Society, the John Birch Society
Fighting for the right to fight the right fight for the right
Join the John Birch Society, as we're marching on
We'll all be glad to see you when we're meeting in the John
In the John, In the John Birch Society


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:41 AM

Sure looked to me like I was being dragged into it (no surprise there), since I am a member of the household being referenced. Otherwise, simply addressing the person who said the thing in question would have been appropriate. And if so, it was a completely unwarranted personal attack on me, since I have not, prior to this post, made any posts to this thread at all.

Or perhaps the person who castigated the "household" of which I am a member would like to rephrase their post.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:46 AM

( ...but I'm not holding my breath, since the person who is all up in arms about personal attacks in this thread is one of the worst offenders in the Mudcat when it comes to making personal attacks)


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:53 AM

Sheee IT

I liked the Chad Mitchell trio.




TO HELL WITH THE NEW RELIGIOUS REPUBLICAN FINANCIAL FELONS

No cute cartoons here about their stupidity, treason and greed.

ITs not cute anymore and you deserve to be pissed off.

I'll show you how to be pissed off.
Can you say "Go To Hell!"
I'm more pissed off than Spaw playing the dozen's squared.
I am pissed and I damn the military corporate religious complexs to hell. A REAL HELL
Smug staunch Republicans continue to defend this rape of your country.
You really want them to get away with this torture rape murder and theft?
I would like them to know what hell is like.
It is worse than losing a few toys or homes...or losing the password for your Swiss Banc account...
It is like having your eyes are ripped out and you are charged interest compounded daily only to have them returned 10 years later. By then they will be rotted dried flaps of tissue, and you can only hear your family die slowly of simple painful infections since they not afford health care.

If there is a special hell that exists beyond the grave, for these Republican criminals it might be like this...
For the rest of their life they will feel non existent, then somehow after they die they will feel as though they do exist, impotent to everything alive.

I curse you so that
Every reversal of truth you ever told will come back to make you the victim of the alledged sexism, elitism, racism and religious fundamentalism.

Then we will gather all your mega felon friends to look into your face of two red holes where eyes used to be and promise to help you, while they take whatever you had left inside you that was still human.

Then and only then I would curse you to be reborn and live a life alone except for the haranguing voices of Ann Coulter and Bill O'Reilly in your head.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:57 AM

It's OK to despise certain people for their actions, just dispise them for the right reasons and despicable actions.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 01:17 AM

Glad to meet your expectations: No apologies here--the best you'll get is "it takes one to know one"--but you two are by far the worst offenders, by several orders of magnitude.

Regardless of this, LH didn't deserve the swill JtS served up.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 01:52 AM

Whether or not he deserved it, I had nothing to do with it. The remark about our "household" was nothing more than yet another gratuitous attack on me from someone who apparently is so obsessed with me, they just can't bring themself to leave me alone, even on threads on which I have not been participating.

No, someone like that has no credibility when they accuse others of being the worst offenders when it comes to personal attacks. Someone like that will make up any kind of lie to justify their addiction to making personal attacks on those they have chosen as their victims.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 01:57 AM

And by the way, the person with whom JtS is having an argument is one of my very best friends in the Mudcat, with whom I have only disagreed once in all of the eight years I've known them, and I will not be accused of harboring any animosity against this person whatsoever by anyone, especially not a pathological liar and abuser such as the one who is dragging me into a fight in this thread that I had nothing to do with.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 02:50 AM

Geez. Hmmm...well, I have total respect for Carol, and she knows that, and I have no problem with Jack either, we just sort of stumbled into a political argument there kind of willy nilly, partly because I got a bit carried away myself and spoke somewhat carelessly when I used the term "despise". I did not make myself as clear as I might have.

No point adding any more fuel to that fire, folks.

******

But now then...    Spaw!    GEEZUS...now there is a man totally beyond redemption or even pity. I swear, even Tony Montana on a bad day has got more class than that witless, chuckleheaded, vacant son of a maundering jadrool. He is the laughingstock of the entire Midwest. Anyone who would slag Winona Ryder AND dachshunds AND Major Tom in the same post while praising Cheech Wizard (!!!) is simply beneath my not inconsiderable contempt, and my wish is that he be drawn and quartered with a rusty razor and the sections scattered under a gigantic portrait of Bush and Cheney and that his wretched remains be left there to stand as a warning to simple-ass jadrools everywhere! And then there's his collection of little plastic statuettes! All Weimaraners, if you can believe it. He's got hundreds of the stupid things cluttering up his place. Those should be given to impoverished kids in places like Schenectady and Scranton, and they can use them to take shots at with zip guns and slingshots. There simply isn't any other real use for a tiny statue of a Weimaraner. I know, cos the flea market here used to sell them. You seen one Weimaraner statue, and you're set for life. ;-)

GAWD-flippin'-AWFUL things, but at least they don't smell half as bad as the real item.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 03:34 AM

"We grow good people in our small towns, with honesty and sincerity and dignity."

And she's called a fascist for saying something like that? Gee, and it sounded so innocuous.

Well, that's them pinkoes fer ya - they see a Fascist behind every Bush...

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 04:11 AM

No! There are many points in this. You may grow good people in your small towns, you may grow rednecks who murder out of homophobic and redneck hate, you may grow the xenophobia that so much drives so many in the USA today, but the words in that quote are not the point, albeit I am not that keen on seeing the small-town agenda made a well-spring of political thought.

We know that Palin is (or at least was, and there has been AFAIK no backtracking yet) prepared to consider banning books. The books of this particular writer, calling as they did directly for the assassination of a politician (JFK, but that too is not the point) merit banning, yet Palin uses them to support her agenda.

It may be that Hitler or Mussolini said some things that were correct. Would a politician properly say "As Adolf Hitler rightly said...", and then go on to add whatever it was that Adolf Hitler did rightly say?

Many pigs are, if left to their own devices and not forced by man to live in appalling conditions clean and sweet-smelling animals (or so I have been told) but in the conditions in which domestic pigs live, if you lie down with a pig you will get dirty.

In this case, Palin has lain down with a pig. We now know a little more about her thought process. It was never pretty, but day by day it gets uglier.

LH, you are wrong to apologise for her.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 04:18 AM

Yeah, but if you put lipstick on the pig....

I'm sorry, but I think all these attempts to defame a candidate by slips of the tongue and ancient history and a plethora of trivia, are just ludicrous. How many of you found any fault at all with this quote before today? Could you honestly say it was objectionable, before somebody pointed out its source today? Can Palin be expected to investigate every quote that's written into her speeches, especially one as innocent-sounding as this?
There are substantive issues in this campaign, and yet all the discussion is on minutiae.

-Joe Offer, living in a small town full of honest, sincere, dignified, good people-


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: GUEST,Spartan112
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 06:59 AM

"We grow good people in our small towns, with honesty and sincerity and dignity"?


The thing is it's not that the quote by itself is offensive at first blush. It sounds great...we grow good people in our small towns...ok, but the inference is that we grow something else in our big towns and cities. Pegler was creating an "us v. them" mentality just as Palin and McCain (make no mistake about who is the top of this ticket) are trying to do. Who is "them"...who doesn't grow up in small town America? Blacks? Hispanics? Jews? The elite?


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Alice
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 09:14 AM

Joe, I agree that the quote sounds innocent enough. But I DO hold her responsible for knowing what her speech writers are putting in her mouth. If it had not referred to "a writer", it would have just been a line in a speech. But obviously, those creating her scripts have sources they are referring to and those sources are part of the ideology of what the next four years of the US presidential administration would be if the Republicans win. I'm sure if you were going on TV as a VP candidate to introduce yourself with a speech, you would have made sure you understood every part of what that speech referred to. This is only one of the small straws that are stacking up to show how she is being exploited for her veneer, not that she is a substantive candidate for VP.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 09:44 AM

I'm kinda' with Father Joebro here.........These people are carrying tons of bad policy baggage and still we look for minutiae. I think they're major assholes and won't vote for them.   But McCain and Palin are not great intellects and have marginal speaking skills with half-assed speech writers......so we slam them for it. Clinton was intelligent, one of the best speakers of the past 100 years, and deeply involved in his own speechwriting........so we slammed him for beiing "Slick Willie."

I doubt that 5% of the populace has ever encountered the name Westbrook Pegler let alone know anything at all about the dork. It was dumb of course to quote him but a simple paraphrase of that quote is something many Americans believe in along with baseball, hot dogs, apple pie, and Chevrolet.

These "political threads" are about horseshit on a platter anymore. Almost all are bashing the hell out of someone and virtually none are........................why am I even bothering? Trash Talk Politics is the new norm............and more's the pity.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 09:47 AM

All propaganda has ... to accommodate itself to the comprehension of the least intelligent.

As a Christian I ...have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.
(A. H.)

Little Hawk has just stated the obvious. But since the obvious is so often overlooked in the political threads these days it was worth stating it.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 10:13 AM

"You may grow good people in your small towns, you may grow rednecks who murder out of homophobic and redneck hate,.."


                Yeah, and you may grow Will Rogers, or John Stienbeck, or Larry the Cable Guy, or Abe Lincoln, or...


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 10:42 AM

The quote was picked out specifically to play to the rural American voter who has been blindly led since Bush I honed the "hate elitists" strategy during his election... It's no wonder that it has been dusted off and reintroduced ever 4 years since then... It is juts another way to make rural voters feel that educated urbanites look down on them... But the sad thing about this is that because this strategy has worked so well that to a certain extent, there is an element of truth to it as better educated urbanites ***do*** consider themselves more ***open minded*** and less influenenced by divisive trickery...

Who knows??? Maybe we are all being manipulated by differnt forces???

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 11:24 AM

Was it one of McCain's speechwriters I saw on "Dinner with Portillo" last night (a chubby self-satisfied looking woman - reminded me of Miss Piggy on the Muppets) quite clearly on national UK TV refer to Arabs as "ragheads"?


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 11:58 AM

Richard, I was in no way "apologizing" for Sarah Palin. I absolutely can't stand her, and I deplore her political and social values.

What I was doing was drawing attention to the utterly petty and trivial partisan sniping that people are descending to (as usual) instead of dealing with some issues that actually matter.

Spaw put it perfectly: "These "political threads" are about horseshit on a platter anymore. Almost all are bashing the hell out of someone and virtually none are........................why am I even bothering? Trash Talk Politics is the new norm............and more's the pity."

When the general public starts behaving as ludicrously as the politicians and their handlers, what hope is really left for bringing any kind of decent political system out of the mess?


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:16 PM

This is the evangelical party line: Hurricaine God.

Unless one understands the basics in this Spiritual and spiritual warfare, one is going to be blindly picking at the physical in trying to decipher what is going on in this world from Russia, the Middle East and the United States.
America has a huge problem in the Spiritual rebellion and rejection going on here. This nation was tamed from a wilderness by God's children in His Promise. As the children moved away, God's Peace has departed in where storms before were moved around cities that in the past few years they now they smash into them to the epic hits America is about to start to experience.

If I might digress a bit to address our Democratic brothers who attempted to use a hurricane again during the GOP convention in mocking God and Republicans as evil in public. I ask people to revisit Katrina which only wiped out the debauchery sections of the south, how later the Texas hurricane ran out of steam surprising people at Houston when people prayed. Revisit Gustav as a category 4 being unplugged to a category 2 for some unexplained reason.
This isn't weather modification. This is God Who does not appreciate being mocked nor for a political group of His children branding another political group as being nailed by God, because a natural hurricane is occurring.

This doesn't have a thing to do with John McCain being a better person than Barack Obama. If you note they both have children who are well adjusted and smiling, so they and their wives are protecting those children to be good citizens. It does though go back to the Spiritual and spiritual.
John McCain is an American Secularist who lives under God he met in Vietnam in the worst of possible situations and knows his imperfections.
Barack Obama is a Marxist who allows himself to be called the messiah while seeking a way to glaze God over his mission of supplanting God with government.

These facts are not going unnoticed by God no more than the horrid smears going on in this election


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:25 PM

Ah. Well, that makes it all crystal clear, doesn't it? ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:58 PM

Yes, sir!


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Amos
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 01:25 PM

What an unfathomable crock of piggly-wiggly horse manure, Donuel!! You should hire out to Palin's speechwriting team.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Alice
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 01:49 PM

I live in a small town in a rural state, too, and it is filled with ALL KINDS of people, just as cities are.

What this all boils down to for me is that Palin is being programmed by the neo-cons of the Republican party. They are in bliss that they have a new face to promote their agenda and a clean slate in her - they can mold her. She is not the old McCain style Republican at all. I actually had some respect for McCain before he chose her.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 03:15 PM

Palin was getting flak for having been mayor of a small town and governor of a small state. Could it be that the quote was used simply to defend that experience, and not to slam city folks or to subtly brainwash Americans into fascism?
I thought progressives were progressive...and tolerant. Could it be that they're just as much into conspiracy theory as the right-wingers are?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 03:16 PM

Amos, I don't know how, but you seem to think that Donuel was putting forth his own ideas in that post.... (?)

You must be joking. Read it again.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 03:41 PM

I found this interesting (in the comments section)...


'One does not have to be an expert on fascism to understand that such a contextual reference to " small town Americans" is unmistakibly fascist.

Since what is being implicitly said is that there are "true Americans", which precisely are those "small town Americans" ("good people" with "honesty, sincerity and dignity") represented by Sarah Palin (the true "volklish" leader, being a "hockey mom", a "pittbul with lipstick" and all).

And one of the main features (if not the main feature) of fascism is the creation of an identity BY EXCLUSION (these ones are the "true" ones, the others are the "degenerated" ones) represented by a leader that carries in "his blood" and in "his soul" the "volklish spirit".

The guys at the propaganda machine behind Sarah Palin's speech surely read their Leo Strauss (and ultimately their Carl Schmitt) very well, creating a narrative and simultaneously an identity by exclusion (exploring an "exclusive identity" with a "true representative").

And they did it because they had to offer an alternative narrative to the one associated to Barack Obama, as a representative of the American dream and simultaneously of an INclusive identity.

As I said in other threads, the Dems seemed to have panicked instead of desmantling the Republican move. Because it can be desmantled if you insist on the narrative associated with Barack Obama as a "place" of American identity (which at the end of the day is the one that is quitessentially American: an universalist identity, an identity of INclusion, not of EXclusion).

Please understand that in Sarah Palin's speech there were two essential moves: to ridicule Obama (the community organizer, the author of two biographies) and to present herself as truly "volklish". They knew that they had to target the Democrats strongest point: Barack Obama himself as a place of American identity. And they knew that they had to offer an alternative narrative (that, to be alternative, had to mean an EXclusive identity).

And please tell at the people behind Obama that they must read and understand Carl Schmitt and Leo Strauss very well in order to understand what the Republican propaganda machine is doing through Sarah Palin.

And one must not forget that THERE IS AN ANTIDOCTE to such an unmistakibly fascist move. Insisting: BARACK OBAMA, the representative of the the American dream, the "place" of true American identification since he means an INclusive identity (an identity without "enemies").'


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 04:21 PM

That is quite a penetrating analysis, Carol, and goes a lot further than my questioning of the deification of small towns above.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 04:23 PM

Regrets LH but you were excusing her for putting forward the views of a fascist whose "authority" arises because he was a fascist, to support her own bigotry.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 04:32 PM

Well, if you're looking for small towns, Wasilla's a pretty good candidate. Ketchikan is even better--they must breed demigods there.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Amos
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 04:32 PM

No, I was sensitive to the humor in what Donuel posted--it just made me feel snippy! :D No offense intended, and I hope none taken.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 05:19 PM

I agree with the stuff in Carol's last post.

To quote a brief part of it: "Since what is being implicitly said is that there are "true Americans", which precisely are those "small town Americans" ("good people" with "honesty, sincerity and dignity") represented by Sarah Palin (the true "volklish" leader, being a "hockey mom", a "pittbul with lipstick" and all).

Quite so. I have been bothered by this sort of implicit ersatz folk mythology fascism implicit in American politics all of my life. It is an endlessly repeated message underlying the rhetoric of almost all American politicians and seen again and again in popular entertainment, but it is usually employed more effectively by the Republicans than by the Democrats...because the Republicans draw their strength from those rurual people most inclined to believe the myth...since it tells them that they are the "good people" and that there's someone "bad" out there that they must band together against and defeat (destroy).

Yes, it's really a form of volk fascism, and I can't stand it. To focus on this one line out of Palin's speech, though, is merely to draw attention to the 10 millionth time this kind of message has been used in the last 100 years. There's nothing the least bit unusual about it. It's merely a matter of momentary convenience to liberal minds that she happened to use a quote from Pegler to say something that has been said so many times already that it's like a feedback hum in the American consciousness. She could have used any one of about 50,000 quotes from other American writers and have said the same thing....but she or her handlers made an error and chose Pegler....OH JOY!!!!

So it's a windfall for those specific people who hate the conservative movement, because Pegler just happens to be an author whose views are extreme enough that he makes a good target for raising a little outrage.

This only matters to the people who would never have voted for Sarah Palin or John McCain in the first place.

If people here are questioning the myth itself, great. It should be questioned.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 05:27 PM

I like that the author of those comments was naming the thing that lies at the core of the strategy of the people pulling the strings behind McCain/Palin. I also like that he or she identified what the antidote is for those kinds of tactics. Actually, I think that's the most important part. Once the strategy is identified, describe the most effective response to it.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 05:30 PM

Adolf Hitler saying "two plus two equals four" doesn't make it wrong, (Although it might make one wish to convert to another base).

So quoting Westbrook Pegler on a particular subject does not automatically make one a sharer of each and every view nor a condoner of each and every quote.

Also note that other famous and famously quoted people, notably H.L. Mencken, have been quoted saying somewhat unsavory things, but Mencken made a lot of purposely inflammatory statements which do not automatically make him, say, an anti-semite. Some of the Pegler quotes I saw may very well be similar in nature.

As for Palin, I think of her as "Willy Stark - With Lipstick!"


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: irishenglish
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 05:47 PM

LH-Would YOU have attributed the quote to the author of it by name? I'm not doing partisan here. I'm asking, if you would purposely use a quote from ANYONE, controversial or otherwise, and not attribute it? You brought up the Goering quote yesterday, I posted the main part of it above. You implied that us liberals had no problem using it because we agreed with it. You can see my answer to that above. I'm just real tired of seeing an argument such as this:
"because Pegler just happens to be an author whose views are extreme enough that he makes a good target for raising a little outrage."

Just because Pegler is a name unknown to most, does not justify some stupid speechwriters use of it, or low key use of it. You keep harping on partisan, partisan, partisan. Well...I'm sorry. You wouldn't casually insert a quote from Hitler that was innocent enough, just because it happened to fit your speech. Nor would you for Martin Luther King. You would attribute it right? If you wouldn't, how can you say, us liberals are playing a partisan game of nitpicking? Bad choice to include in a speech. Bad decision to keep them in a speech. Bad idea to have the speech given using the words.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 06:09 PM

"Would YOU have attributed the quote to the author of it by name?"

I don't know. It would depend which quote I was using and what for, I guess...I personally would probably not have chosen to use that quote at all in a speech, since it's just another transparent attempt to suck up to small town white folks and implicitly attack other people who aren't small town white folks, but I'm not sure if that's what you mean.

I'm saying that it has proven very fortuitous for Democratic critics of Sarah Palin that the quote came from a known extremist. It's like a dog searching around for carrion and finding some day-old roadkill. Yippee! This is what people like Karl Rove and the sharks who work for him are trained to keep their eyes peeled for at all times.

Whether Palin knew that he was an extremist or regarded him as such, I don't know. Whether she even knew who the quote came from, I don't know. Should she have known? Yes. Is it a vitally important point or moment in this election on the basis of which her entire candidacy should rest? I don't think so. But it has certainly succeeded in generating a lively thread on Mudcat.

Tell you what...mark your calendar for a year from now. Put it up on the wall. When that year has elapsed, check back on this particular issue and see if it still matters all that much.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: irishenglish
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 06:30 PM

LH, I have no intention of starting a battle here, but thats not really much of an answer. I'm sick of hearing that after years of being pushed around, we can't fight back. You call that partisan sniping, I call it the day I finally smacked the school bully in the head after putting up with a lot of shit for a long time. (Yes, that happened to me). Telling us to mark our calendars, or that this is a fortuitous moment is not fair either. If the shoe had been on the other foot, the gasbags (O'Reilly, Limbaugh, Hannity, Beck, Coulter, et al) would have been raking the Dems over the coals for its inclusion.

Let me put this another way. I am royally pissed that again, I have to hear that because I express OUTRAGE, I have to mark it on my calendar in a year to see if I remember it, all because I'm supposed to refrain from fighting back. I am concerned about a lot. Look at the thread Amos started about just the issues that are important. I have a lot of concerns for this country. Obama is not a saviour, but he represents good in my opinion. I can talk issues, I can talk about what I think needs to happen in this country. I can also say that quoting from a man who was about as un-American in character as almost anyone I can think of is highly dubious and questionable, and speaks to the darkest fears amongst some people.

I'm sorry, thats a rant. But I feel this country is the schoolyard now. A lot of us are sick of being picked on by the bully.

Robert


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 06:35 PM

Well, okay, I understand your feelings on that. Do whatever it is you feel is right for you, I guess.

There'll be a lot more between now and November.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 08:58 PM

Here is what Jonah Goldberg has to say about Westbrook Pegler and those who quote Westbrook Pegler and those who label him a fascist when they've inherited a lot of dough from their rich fascist grandpa. He backs up what I writted earlier about writing in other voices a la Mencken, (and he even mentions Mencken). But I'm quoting him with attribution because I think what he wrote is very perceptive in putting Pegler into context:


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Westbrook Pegler

I'm not much interested in defending Westbrook Pegler. But I find this very earnest screed by Marty Peretz, in which he beats up Sarah Palin for a completely innocuous quote by Pegler quite amusing. (Thomas Frank apparently got the ball rolling last week). The line Palin used: "We grow good people in our small towns, with honesty and sincerity and dignity." And from that Peretz launches into a parade of horrible quotations from Pegler, some of which may well be out of context.

I guess Palin should have found some other homage to small town America from a less controversial writer, if for no other reason to avoid this sort of attack during political silly season. But there's an irony here. The New Republic led the chorus of "serious liberals" who said the entire approach of my book was illegitimate because there's no way you can hold contemporary liberals accountable in any way for the nastier views of their heroes of yesteryear (Woodrow Wilson, FDR, Margaret Sanger et al). This was a mischaracterization of what I do in my book (and total bad faith given how that very approach has always been a vital M.O. of the left's attack on the right). But that's an old argument.

Regardless, here's Sarah Palin referencing Pegler — even though Peretz concedes that Palin probably doesn't even know who he was — and Peretz seems to think it says a great deal about...something.

Since I know I'll get email asking what I think of Pegler, I might as well offer some useful clarifications (at least by my lights). I'm no expert on Pegler, but I read up on him a bit for the book and I'd talked about him with my Dad before he died. And my Dad was, simply, the most impressive expert on American political columnists I've ever known.

Anyway, I don't dispute Pegler wrote many indefensible things. Indeed, I never much liked Pegler's style. It struck me as lower-brow Menckenism (and I'm not sure Pegler would have disagreed). That said, while I don't have time to hunt down the context of Peretz's various quotes, it might be kept in mind that Pegler often spoke in other people's voices, often to mock them. In the 1930s — when he was with Scripps-Howard, not Hearst — Pegler skewered the Klan with this literary device. If memory serves, he also pretended to be Jimmy Hoffa in a column attacking Bobby Kennedy. For all I know that's where the gross Kennedy quote is from.

But it is also worth noting that by the 1960s Pegler went off his feed and became even more of a crank. In his prime, however bilious, he was one of America's great columnists and sportswriters and won the Pulitzer in 1941 for his exposé of Chicago labor unions. As a sportswriter he was one of the first to attack discrimination against blacks in professional sports. And while Peretz is careful in some of his wording, the average reader would get the impression that Pegler was nothing but a fascist and a bigot (Robert F. Kennedy Jr., calls Pegler an outright fascist, but it's at least worth noting that RFK Jr. is an unreconstructed buffoon when it comes to his understanding of fascism). It's impossible to defend the totality of Pegler's work against the charge of bigotry, nor would I want to try. But it should be said that Pegler — unlike the decidedly leftwing Father Coughlin — opposed Nazism and Nazi anti-Semitism with admirable passion more passion than could be found in many quarters of American liberalism like, for example, within Kennedy's own family (grandpa Joe was somewhere between an appeaser and outright Nazi sympathizer) or Harvard University. Indeed, Pegler's famous (or once famous) 1936 essay on the Jewish children of Europe puts him ahead of the New York Times in the moral-courage-on-the-Holocaust-department. (Indeed, the Nazis tried to deny Pegler his press credentials at the Berlin Olympics). Some might find it interesting that Pegler initially supported the New Deal, though not as passionately as Coughlin, but broke with it for the right reason: It was too statist. Coughlin broke with the New Deal because it wasn't statist enough.

Anyway, my feelings about Pegler are as follows: To the extent there was such a thing as the Old Right, he was emblematic of its contradictions. He hated big government, hated attempts at social engineering, and had a populist's romantic faith in "real America." He was a man with much hate in him indeed, he championed hate as a universal human liberty which, after all, it is.   Bill Buckley was a nuanced fan of Pegler, but he nonetheless understood the necessity of purging the bigoted strain from modern conservatism that Pegler sometimes represented (today, I doubt 1 in 100 committed conservatives under the age of 50 would even recognize the name). But Pegler was also right about a few important things: the kindred evils of Communism and National Socialism, the racket-like aspects of labor unions and the New Deal, the loony-tunes ideas of one-time New Republic editor and Communist fellow-traveler Henry Wallace and, self-evidently, the goodness of American small towns.

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Subject: RF Kennedy, Jr. - Palin quotes Westbrook Pegler
From: Genie
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 09:51 PM

Jack the Sailor said:
"Kennedy has reason to hate the man. A man who called for his father's murder before it happened.

If Palin is quoting a man who said such words, the public has a right to know. ... "

Many (especially opponents) are taking Barack Obama to task for his "lipstick on a pig" quip (about McCain's policies) on the grounds that "he should have known how it was likely to be interpreted by most people" (as a backhanded retort to Gov. Palin's "pitbull" quip).   I'm not a subscriber to that view, but if that principle is to be applied to Obama's use of a metaphor about McCain, then it should be applied equally to Palin's quoting the Right-wing extremist who called for the murder of Democrats, including Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Either she, or at least her speechwriters, should have realized the subliminal message that quoting Westbrook Pegler might send to Right-wing zealots hearing her words.   

As I said, I wouldn't hold either of the campaigns to that kind of principle.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Genie
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 09:52 PM

pdq said: "Without speeches, politicians would just stand there and have nothing to say."

You mean, as opposed to just standing there and talking and STILL having nothing to say?

G


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 10:02 PM

That's a good piece, robomatic.
    I rarely agree with Jonah Goldberg. I do, mostly, this time, and I don't remember Westbrook Pegler. But at the end of it all, I still think Henry Wallace really did have the best interest of the American public at heart.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Genie
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 10:17 PM

IrishEnglish said: [[I believe this is the quote Little Hawk was referring to:

"To quote an expert: 'Of course the people don't want war - that is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." ------- Hermann Goering (Adolf Hitler's deputy) at the Nuremberg trials, 1946, quoted in "Nuremberg Diary" by G M Gilbert]]

Goering's analysis is, unfortunately, spot on.   I'd eagerly use that quotation -- AND clearly state where it came from. The source is an important reminder of why its truth is something we need to keep in mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Genie
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 10:24 PM

Little Hawk said: "If the world was voting, Obama would win by a landslide."

So true. And, sad to say, far too many Americans would vote AGAINST him precisely BECAUSE of that fact.

I think our American populace, abetted and deceived by the monopolistically-held infotainment media and the heavily-funded campaigns of the opposition, has become increasingly arrogant about our place in the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Genie
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 10:30 PM

Gawd, Little Hawk! You and Spaw are so beeyootiful when yer angry!!

G
; D


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 10:49 PM

I don't think anyone who supported Joe McCarthy and what he was doing could accurately be described as someone who "hates big government". They might accurately be described as someone who hates some kinds of big government, but they obviously love some kinds of big government. Big police-state types of government, for instance.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 01:20 AM

Ha! Thanks, Genie. Spaw and I love to pretend we're angry at each other and slag each other off in that fashion now and then. I, of course, am not deserving of such cavalier treatment because I adore Winona Ryder and I love dachshunds. Spaw, on the other hand, praises Cheech Wizard and keeps Weimaraners. This, needless to say, means he deserves the absolute worst, because he is beyond the pale. ;-)

*********

'Of course the people don't want war - that is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." ------- Hermann Goering (Adolf Hitler's deputy) at the Nuremberg trials, 1946, quoted in "Nuremberg Diary" by G M Gilbert]]

That is indeed the Goering quote that you have there, all right, Genie, and boy is it EVER spot on. Truer words have seldom been spoken regarding how governments bamboozle and control their public when they wish to promote a war of aggression. I would have no trouble attributing the statement to Goering, and it is a statement that all people should be made well aware of...it would help them protect themselves against their own regimes that might lead them into lawless and needless wars of aggression....as the Bush regime has done.

Goering served a very wrongful cause in Nazi Germany. That doesn't mean that there is nothing he said in his Nuremberg testimony from which we cannot perhaps learn something useful.

Most people DO say something useful sometime during their lives...and they also usually say some things that are stupid, wrongful, and destructive sometime during their lives. You just have to look what they said...not in terms of who they are...but in terms of exactly what they said, period, and in what context.

In other words, look beyond your habitual political correctness habits that you are so defensive about and consider each statement strictly on its own merits. That statement of Goering's is dead accurate and it has plenty of merit, regardless of the source.

Goering sometimes spoke the truth. He did on that occasion, because he had nothing left to lose. He knew he was going to die soon.   Everyone sometimes speaks the truth, and the truth WILL set you free...if you bother to listen to it and then act on what you heard.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 02:43 AM

Isn't it worthy of mention that The Shrub has been doing exactly what Goering said, and that McWar plans to keep on doing it?


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 02:44 AM

Or was it so obvious that it didn't need saying?

Oh, and 100


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Genie
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 03:25 AM

Richard Bridge: "Isn't it worthy of mention that The Shrub has been doing exactly what Goering said, and that McWar plans to keep on doing it?"

Certainly.

Obvious, perhaps. True, definitely.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 09:46 AM

I would agree with Jonah that taking words out of context is is fascile and to be expected during silly season.

Pegler was not as dangerous a man as Lindberg who could be most easily manipulated by national socialists. The Financial Republicans would love to have a Lindberg on the presidential platform today.


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: GUEST,Jill
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 04:50 PM

Palin was just the mouthpiece for a machine that uses people like Pegler when convenient.


http://www.counterpunch.org/dickson09162008.html
"The speech was written by Matthew Scully, who worked for President George W. Bush for five years, and was part of the team that drafted the President's post-September 11th addresses and every major speech of the first term. No stranger to the art of creating statesmanship in the barely literate, Scully had been hired before the surprising selection of Alaska governor Sarah Palin as vice-presidential candidate; portions of the speech touching on Senators Obama and McCain had been written before her selection was announced.

Scully and Palin sat together and developed-over "hours and hours and hours and hours" according to Mark Salter, McCain's closest aide, speechwriter, and co-author-what would become the defining, and indeed pivotal, moment in the current Presidential campaign.

Scully has described the process of speechwriting with loving and useful detail as a collaborative effort, informed by historical precedent, and a careful understanding of, and appreciation for, the politician meant to deliver the speech. In settling scores with his former colleague, Mike Gershon, in a long 2007 piece in The Atlantic, Scully depicts a meticulous, creative, solemn, collegial process where scores of drafts are revised and edited, both by the speechwriting team and by political higher-ups: a process where every reference is carefully chosen, and every phrase is weighed for rhetorical punch and discursive balance.

As Scully sat with Palin, many of the McCain campaign's most senior staff were most likely called upon to review and comment the emerging speech's leitmotiv: small town values of decency, service and integrity, facing off against the unreliability of the community-organizing urbanites in truly fighting for the interests of the people, or for the nation's war efforts. The novelty of a relatively young woman speaking to the RNC was offset by a retro feel: something from bygone days when things were simple, and moral response to enemies something that one didn't have to think too hard about. Something harkening back to the Truman years."


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 05:03 PM

Westbrook Pegler. Herbert Hoover. Do these names mean anything to a voting population that thinks the Desert Storm is ancient history?


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Subject: RE: BS: RFKennedy, Jr., - Palin quotes fascist
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 06:36 PM

"Isn't it worthy of mention that The Shrub has been doing exactly what Goering said, and that McWar plans to keep on doing it?"

Darn right it is, and I did mention it (regarding Bush). Check the end of my 3rd paragraph in that post. Yes, I do expect McCain to keep on doing it.


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