rosewood by any other Name

Subject: BS: rosewood by any other Name
From: olddude
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:09 PM

Found this interesting article on Rosewood for guitars

Chris Herrod (sales manager from Luthier Mechantile International) For many years the crème de la crème of back and side woods was Brazilian rosewood. Though this wood is still in common usage, it has been protected against import and export by the CITES [Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora] treaty since 1991. For this reason, a number of alternatives have surfaced- one being Indian rosewood, which in turn has become a standard choice and should now be considered a traditional tonewood itself. It was during the 60's that most large manufacturers switched from using Brazilian to Indian rosewood.

Brazilian rosewood is sought after for its (usually) dark brown color that ranges from chocolate brown, to rust or a warm burnt orange. Finer examples feature fine black line figuring and spider webbing (where the black lines make web-like shapes that cross from one annular ring to another). The tone, some say, is incomparable, though it is often argued that this opinion is once again, a habit of tradition. Great projection, with strong, balanced bass and highs are its trademarks.

Indian rosewood varies quite a bit in appearance from Brazilian rosewood, though it is still quite dark. Basically brown, but with purple, gray and sometimes red highlights, it is known for straighter, more homogenous grain lines and a lack of ink-line figuring. Some say it is on par with Brazilian rosewood for tone (a few say it is superior), and though it is far easier to procure and less expensive, it is nonetheless considered the mark of a higher-end instrument, especially by manufacturers. Some say it lacks a bit of the projection that Brazilian rosewood is known for, but this is debatable.

Other rosewoods are found in Asia, Africa and South/Central America, offering a tremendous variety of choices for those who like the rosewood sound. The most exotic of these is African blackwood. Strikingly different from other rosewoods in that it is flat black in color, and among the densest woods found on the planet, it is also one of the most expensive. The trees grow in isolated areas of the West African deserts and the trunks of these trees are twisted and small, yielding little guitar-sized wood. For those daring luthiers who don't mind dulling their chisels on this hardest of guitar woods, African blackwood can contribute to a rare and valuable guitar with outstanding volume and power, given that the top is voiced appropriately.

There are other rosewoods that compare in density to Brazilian rosewood, such as Honduran rosewood and Amazon rosewood. Honduran is more of a brick red/brown in color and Amazon is similar in color to Brazilian but is usually found with less figure. Both of these woods feature tight grain lines and both have adherents that claim they are finest tonewoods available.

On the wild side are: Southeast Asian rosewood, palo escrito and cocobolo rosewood. Southeast Asian rosewood is very hard to come by and was only available from Luthiers Mercantile for a 4-year period during which we exhausted the stock from a single shipment. There may still be many good logs left but at this time, no one is harvesting them for instrument use. The wood was very dramatic in appearance, with brick reds, magentas and purples combining in unique ways. Many sets also featured dramatic black line figure and attractive sapwood centers.

Cocobolo, on the other hand, is readily available from Mexico; this superb tonewood has bold, distinctive orange highlights with plenty of black lines that can often show exciting swirly patterns. Some sets are dark reddish-brown. Cocobolo is among the heaviest of the rosewoods and is known to impart a strong bass to guitars. Many luthiers shy away from using cocobolo because they have an allergic reaction to it when sanding and, because there are abundant oils in the wood, it can be difficult to glue.

For those who can work around these problems, cocobolo is a great favorite for both tone and beauty.

Palo escrito is a tan wood with reddish-brown lines that create unusual patterns in some sets, much like colobolo. This is a lighter-weight type of rosewood. Guitars with back and sides made of palo escrito are known for a sweet high end and good punch. This wood is becoming a popular choice for flamenco guitars, but steel-string builders who are experimenting with it, most notably James Goodall of Goodall guitars, are getting excellent results with it.

Finally, from the rosewood category, there is Madagascar rosewood. Little can be said about it that hasn't already been said about Brazilian rosewood! Visually, it is a dead-ringer for Brazilian, though in general it is more red or rust colored. The main differences are that Madagascar rosewood is not illegal to import, it is far less expensive, and a little lighter in weight. More than a few builders claim that the lower weight bestows an additional sonic liveliness that surpasses Brazilian rosewood -and indeed, most other tonewoods. The tap tone of this wood has a noticeably strong, sustaining quality.

There are a number of other woods that, because of their higher density, help create a rosewood-like sounding guitar, but do not come from the rosewood family. Visually, none of them would be mistaken for rosewood, but they are all quite attractive in their own right. On the higher-end are Macassar ebony and ziricote. Breedlove Guitars, a company that has created models from numerous alternative tonewoods, is very fond of both of these woods. Macassar ebony, as you might guess, is a black wood but with dramatic blond streaking which creates a beautiful liquid or marbled appearance. Ziricote is grayish in color and features intense spider-web figuring and layered effects.

Both woods are brittle and hard to work with. Both are expensive but their high density allows for great tonal balance and volume and the scarcity of well-figured sets adds value to the instruments. The remaining rosewood alternatives, on the other hand, are relatively inexpensive and easy to come by. From Africa there's bubinga, which has a nice reddish-mauve brown color and often sports an interesting 'bees-wing' figure that gives a nice three-dimensional shimmer to wood under finish. Also from Africa is padauk. A brilliant purple-red wood, it oxidizes to dark brown over time. Finally, there is wenge a very dark brown wood (verging on black) that some well-known builders, such as Mark Blanchard, have had good results with.

From South America there is grenadillo. This wood has a nice purple brown color reminiscent of Indian rosewood, except that it does not have the straight lines that Indian has. Grenadillo does have a subtle wavy figure, a bright responsive tap tone, and attractive sapwood centers are commonplace. It is popular in Brazil, but it is relatively new to American lutherie. It promises to become a favorite among steel-string builders. Pau ferro (or morado) is well known as a fingerboard wood on electric guitars and basses and is coming into its own as a back and side wood. It is much like Indian rosewood with dark, straight, vertical lines except that gold, beige and brown substitute for the dark browns, grays and purples found in Indian rosewood.

Subject: RE: BS: rosewood by any other Name
From: Zen
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:34 PM

A couple of very interesting, and erudite, old threads on this very subject if you do a search on the forum olddude. As a former wood scientist (30+ years ago) and guitar repairer I find this all very fascinating.

Zen

Subject: RE: BS: rosewood by any other Name
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:54 PM

Aren't nearly all of those endangered now, and only available from the sort of loggers that think nothing of bringing in death squads to massacre whole communities if those communities might want to keep their own trees?

Even the much smaller pieces used to make woodwind instruments are rarely available any more. A sensible compromise is that used by Buffet for some of the clarinets in their top-end R13 line, which are made from resin-bonded blackwood dust.

Subject: RE: BS: rosewood by any other Name
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:59 PM

Cocobolo is easily available -- they even make pistol grips from it.

Subject: RE: rosewood by any other Name
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:51 PM

I was a part of some of those old threads on wood... I am a member of the IWCS (International Wood
Collectors Society) and have chatted with several experts, including one of the most knowledgeable guys regarding Rosewoods in the world.

Much of what old dude says is accurate, but may be slightly misleading in places. Several woods mentioned, such as Wenge and Ziricote, are not really good candidates for guitars, due to difficulty in bending, and other problems. 'Most' genuine Rosewoods (Dalbergia spp.) are usable, and some are excellent, but they vary widely. Dalbergia sissoo "East Indian Rosewood" is not considered as good for instruments as Dalbergia latifolia, which is more properly called "Indian Rosewood".

Almost all of the Rosewoods do have allergy problems for many artisans, though once finished are not usually a problem for the musician. (Though I know of cases where a recorder of Rosewood has caused serious reactions when blown by susceptible folks.)(I, personally, am VIOLENTLY allergic to Cocobolo and should avoid most other types...with exceptions made for Tulipwood & African Blackwood)



"Aren't nearly all of those endangered now..."? Many...not all. The more useful they are, the more endangered.

One of the reasons the famous Brazilian rosewood (Dalbergia nigra) had to be protected is that it was not a jungle tree, but grew near the coast was was far too easy to find, cut, and transport once European traders discovered it. (Much like Cuban Mahogany).

I am pleased, for once, to see woods like Morado NOT called 'rosewoods', as they are mistakenly labeled by many dealers. Wood is notoriously mis-identified in order to promote sales.

Subject: RE: rosewood by any other Name
From: olddude
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 07:20 PM

Hey Guys
here is a question. My buddie garry has some plans and want to play around and try to create a guitar from scratch. I have a dead old piano in my basement lots of mahognay, any reason why he could not take it apart and use that wood?

Subject: RE: rosewood by any other Name
From: olddude
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 07:26 PM

Oh it is an upright grand circa 1880 or older with lots of mahogony

Subject: RE: rosewood by any other Name
From: PoppaGator
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 08:23 PM

Mahogany is a perfectly good back-and-sides material, different from rosewood but ~ to some tastes ~ better. It has been said (in those earlier Mudcat threads about these woods) that mahogany guitars project the separate sounds of individually picked strings more clearly than rosewood ones, which create a more blended chordal sound.

Mahogany is much more plentiful than any of the rosewoods, and I don't believe it's endangered, either, so it is naturally less expensive. That should not be taken to mean that it's necessarily inferior.

CF Martin has long made its D-18 with mahogany and the D-28 and D-35 with rosewood. The higher-numbered guitars are more expensive, not only because of the material but also because they include more ornamentation (inlays, fancier bindings, etc.). The back of the 35 is made of 3 pieces rather then the usual 2, in order to utilize small pieces of rare rosewood, so there's more labor involved, adding to the cost of production and therefore to the price as well.

Some players swear by the D-18 and prefer it to its pricier cousins. Notable owner/operators of D-18s have included Elvis Presley, Brownie McGee, and me.

Subject: RE: rosewood by any other Name
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 10:33 PM

The Caribbean mahogany (S. mahogani) of the 19th c. and earlier is rare, having been used almost to extinction in some areas. The same is true of Pacific Coast mahogany (S. humilis).
The remaining type, the bigleaf (S. macrophylla) of Central and northern S. Am., is listed as endangered, (CITES Appendix II) although some is still in commercial trade, the listing is meant to ensure that harvestings are sustainable.
Some has been raised in plantations in southeast Asia, but true mahogany is New World.

Some other woods have been called mahogany in trade, but are not related- Shorea or 'Philippine,' which is not a hardwood, Santos (Myroxylon) of S. Am. and C. Am., and West African (Khaya). I haven't seen any of these being used in musical instruments.

www.fws.gov/citestimber/mahogany/mahoganyoverview.html

True Brazilial rosewood (Dahlbergia), much used in furniture in the 18th-early 19th c., is extinct in trade. The rosewood of Asia, also Dahlbergia, I know nothing about, but I am sure someone here does. So-called rosewoods of Africa are unrelated, I know anything about them. Cocobolo belongs to the same genus, but its properties are somewhat different.

Cocobolo (Dahlbergia retusa) is used in some fairly expensive instruments (Gibson jumbo acoustic, above $3500). It is part of the rosewood group of species.
Outside of plantations, reserves, and parks, cocobolo is in danger of extinction. Most is harvested from private fincas or 'plantations.'

Some of the Dahlbergia species of Asia are poor in quality, I understand.

Granadillo (Platymiscum), a fine hardwood from Mexico and Central America, sometimes marketed as 'rosewood,' also is becoming uncommon, but it also is used in musical instruments.

Koa, from Hawai'i, is extremely variable. 'ukuleles and some guitars, the latter not of top quality.

I have used these woods in crafts, but as to their relative qualities in musical instruments, I am next to ignorant.

Subject: RE: rosewood by any other Name
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:00 PM

**caution.. pedant alert**:

it is 'officially' spelled 'Dalbergia' and Khaya is accepted as a 'true Mahogany'....that is, from the same family, if different genus. (Sometimes VERY similar woods get different names...such as Grevillia robusta and Cardwellia sublimis (Southern & Northern Silky Oak in Australia)

**end pedant alert** (except that Cocobolo is still quite available to woodturners...I see a lot of it, though I am not a customer.)

As to pianos...wood for musical instruments is cut at different angles especially for certain sound qualities. The wood in a piano may or may not be cut along the grain optimally for a guitar. It is probably quite usable, and IF the piano is no longer usable as a piano, it might make some nice stock...but enquiries to some experienced luthiers could help decide how to proceed. Remember..veneers were common on many pianos.....one needs to know exactly what is there.

Subject: RE: rosewood by any other Name
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:39 PM

Bill D.-
A while back, there were a lot of old uprights showing up in so-called antique auctions here. Mostly, it would cost too much to re-condition them, but the wood was beautiful. Some of the woodworkers here bought them for projects. I wonder if instrument makers used them.
I have a large upright in the basement, solid mahogany case, ca. 1900, but the sounding board is cracked. A couple of friends have their eyes on it for the timber.

Yes, the generic name is Dalbergia. Dahl came to mind, but the genus was named for Nils Dalberg, not Anders Dahl. I plead Alzheimers.

Subject: RE: rosewood by any other Name
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:08 AM

I probably need to make a group regarding woods and other instrument construction info but for now, HERE IS THE THREAD run way back in '99 on Brazilian Vs. Indian Rosewood.

Give it a try, you'll love it. Tons of info and opinions galore!......One of the Mudcat Classics

Spaw

Subject: RE: rosewood by any other Name
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 02:31 PM

"I plead Alzheimers."

gee, I usually plead "Whatshisname's disease:

Subject: RE: rosewood by any other Name
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 04:53 PM

About that piano - even if the soundboard is cracked, there might be a piece big enough to make the top of a guitar. Or a dulcimer.

Subject: RE: rosewood by any other Name
From: olddude
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 06:52 PM

dulcimer ... what a great idea !!

Subject: RE: rosewood by any other Name
From: Escapee
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 12:31 AM

Didn't Orville Gibson start out recycling furniture?

Subject: RE: rosewood by any other Name
From: PoppaGator
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 12:37 AM

You wouldn't use mahogany for the top of a guitar, but you certainly might for the back, which is pretty much the same size and shape.

Softer woods, generally from evergreen trees, are used for tops. Spruce is a favorite, probably the very most common species

Subject: RE: rosewood by any other Name
From: Mark Ross
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 09:34 AM

Mahogany makes a fine top for a guitar, witness the Martin 15 series.

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: rosewood by any other Name
From: olddude
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 10:25 AM

Has anyone ever heard of using some wood like Ash or Birch for a guitar back?

Subject: RE: rosewood by any other Name
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 03:53 PM

Redwood is being used for tops by some luthiers. Quite a variety of woods used for back and sides. See list by this supplier-
http://www.lmii.com, click on category at left.
Tonewood offered by the same company is mostly redwood, some western red cedar, and one Honduran mahogany.

Birch used by a luthier in this list for resonators-
guitar

Put "Luthiers" ash in google, and several makers are linked.

Subject: RE: rosewood by any other Name
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 07:03 PM

What's likely to happen to cocuswood supplies after Hurricane Ike?

As I understand it, most of it came from windbreaks in Cuban sugar plantations. If they've lost most of their sugar crop the windbreaks can't be in good shape either.

(I don't suppose cocus is used for guitars, but it's one of the best woods for flutes).

Subject: RE: rosewood by any other Name
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 07:13 PM

Cocus 'probably' should be restricted anyway....just too many problems with supply.

Subject: RE: rosewood by any other Name
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 07:32 PM

Hey Q......"Redwood is being used for tops by some luthiers."............uh, yeah, for the last hundred years or so! LOL....Just a joke....good point.

Spaw

Subject: RE: rosewood by any other Name
From: olddude
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 08:31 PM

What are most of the necks made out of today. I know ebony was the favorite in years past but I don't see much of that on most of the guitars today. Is it also restricted or just expensive?

Subject: RE: rosewood by any other Name
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 08:07 AM

I know you meant "fretboards" rather than "necks", olddude.

Necks, as always, are still best made out of Honduras mahogany.

Ebony is still the favoured material for fretboards, at least on high-end instruments. And rightly so, there is no real substitute imo.

Subject: RE: rosewood by any other Name
From: mattkeen
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 08:26 AM

I have and also used to have several other high end acoustics - current ones have BRW back and sides or English walnut back and sides
Have had several IRW guitars
Anyway I reckon that the back and sides wood counts for about 10% of the tone the top being far more important. However, sometimes you get a combination where that 10% of BRW really does sound marvelous.
My favourite combination is Engelmann spruce top, BRW back and sides

PS - the player makes quite a big difference too!

Subject: RE: rosewood by any other Name
From: olddude
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 03:38 PM

Murray thank you - yes fretboard ...
thank you for explaining

Dan

Subject: RE: rosewood by any other Name
From: Rowan
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 07:03 PM

Ebony is still the favoured material for fretboards, at least on high-end instruments. And rightly so, there is no real substitute imo.

The "antiques" trade discovered many years ago that you could "make" ebony from almost any hardgrained timber by soaking it in Condy's Crystals (potassium permanganate) solution; the paler the initial wood, the longer the soaking required. Being a rather serious oxidant, this chemical darkens the timber as part of the oxidising process. If the "ebony" thus made requires no further shaping, all the exposed surfaces will appear to be "truthful".

Of course, continued fingering of metal strings against a fingerboard will, over time, gradually wear away the surface and expose the inner timber; ebony is the same colour all the way through, while "ebony" won't be. Where there's no wear, I suppose there's no fretting about whether your ebony is the real deal or just oxidised deal.

Just thought you'd be interested.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: rosewood by any other Name
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 07:34 PM

The fingerboards of my cumbuses are made of formica. One of them is more than fifty years old and the formica looks as good as new (the 30-year-old one has fake woodgrain which is wearing off).

A cumbus is fretless. You presumably couldn't fit metal frets on top of formica, but tied-on frets should work.

Subject: RE: rosewood by any other Name
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 08:48 PM

Making a missing paper retaining strip for an old ebony correspondence box, I learned not to cut too fast through the wood. Took a long time to get an attractive shape. I still remember the burnt odor. Faking it (Rowan) would have been easier.

Subject: RE: rosewood by any other Name
From: olddude
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 09:53 PM

Great info, I have learned a lot from this thread thank you. Does the ebony soaking method only color or does it actually make the wood harder somehow?

Subject: RE: rosewood by any other Name
From: Rowan
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 11:24 PM

The potassium permanganate solution has to be about as concentrated as you can make it but it doesn't increase the density nor the hardness of the timber.

There are a few Oz timbers that are extremely dense too, although not many have made it into the "traditionally desirable" lists for instrument makers. From memory of first year botany classes. River Redgum (Eucalyptus camaldulensis) has a density of 72lb/cubic foot; it doesn't float. It has a beautifully rich red colour and can be very finely grained; it can be hard enough to blunt tools very rapidly. But the latter attribute is widely distributed through Oz timbers and surprised the hell out of the First Fleeters, who thought oak to be the ace and deuce of hardwoods.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: rosewood by any other Name
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 11:52 PM

There are actually a number of woods that don't float which are all classed in the category Natalie Woods................

Spaw

Subject: RE: rosewood by any other Name
From: Rowan
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 12:34 AM

Nice one, Spaw.
Which is why I remembered from my old sloyd teacher that "wood is what you burn; the material you use to make things is called timber."

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: rosewood by any other Name
From: GUEST,Bob Wagner
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 02:48 AM

There are actually a number of woods that don't float which are all classed in the category "Natalie Woods"................


ROFLMAO ....

Subject: RE: rosewood by any other Name
From: theleveller
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 05:37 AM

I know a luthier who has spent years collecting pieces of old Brazilian Rosewood. He now calls it his pension.

Subject: RE: rosewood by any other Name
From: Mooh
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 07:13 AM

Ziricote makes for lousy side bending, 'tis true, but also makes for a very nice figured fingerboard and body binding on one of my guitars. Lovely wood. Another unbending wood is bloodwood, worse than ziricote.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: rosewood by any other Name
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 12:43 PM

Rowan...you said "River Redgum (Eucalyptus camaldulensis) has a density of 72lb/cubic foot; it doesn't float. "

I don't believe any of the Eucalypts are that dense... I'd be interested in where that figure came from. I have worked with River Red Gum a couple of times, and it seemed more comparable to Walnut.

Note on this page they are referred to as "medium density

There are several Australian desert woods which are that dense, and a couple from southwest US that are too dense to float (Olneya tesota and Vaquelinia californica), but the world list of woods which won't float is really pretty short.

Subject: RE: rosewood by any other Name
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 10:18 PM

Luthiers Mercantile International- they sell woods
Prosono International- they sell acoustic and other woods.
Alaska Specialty Woods- they sell Sitka Spruce and red and yellow cedar woods.
Can't find anyone that sells timber for instruments.

Subject: RE: rosewood by any other Name
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 11:32 PM

I haven't looked them up recently, but Craft Supplies in the UK used to sell instrument wood as well as supplies for woodturning. (I have their old catalogs)