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the Rangers 'Famine Song'

Jack Campin 16 Sep 08 - 03:13 PM
John MacKenzie 16 Sep 08 - 04:11 PM
Jack Campin 16 Sep 08 - 04:52 PM
Brakn 16 Sep 08 - 05:07 PM
John MacKenzie 16 Sep 08 - 05:08 PM
John MacKenzie 16 Sep 08 - 05:16 PM
Jack Campin 16 Sep 08 - 06:38 PM
MartinRyan 16 Sep 08 - 06:52 PM
Jack Campin 16 Sep 08 - 07:57 PM
GUEST,Dinky 17 Sep 08 - 12:58 AM
Jim Lad 17 Sep 08 - 01:03 AM
GUEST,Hail-Hail 17 Sep 08 - 01:09 AM
GUEST,the words for the song 17 Sep 08 - 03:40 AM
Paul Burke 17 Sep 08 - 04:21 AM
GUEST,ND 17 Sep 08 - 04:40 AM
GUEST,ND 17 Sep 08 - 04:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Sep 08 - 04:55 AM
Brakn 17 Sep 08 - 04:55 AM
Jim Lad 17 Sep 08 - 05:19 AM
GUEST,Paisley Monkey 17 Sep 08 - 05:38 AM
GUEST,ND 17 Sep 08 - 05:59 AM
GUEST,ND 17 Sep 08 - 06:14 AM
Teribus 17 Sep 08 - 06:44 AM
GUEST,ed 17 Sep 08 - 06:57 AM
Jack Campin 17 Sep 08 - 07:53 AM
GUEST,Jack Union 17 Sep 08 - 09:26 AM
John MacKenzie 17 Sep 08 - 11:37 AM
John MacKenzie 17 Sep 08 - 11:57 AM
Jim Lad 17 Sep 08 - 11:58 AM
GUEST 17 Sep 08 - 12:12 PM
Jim Lad 17 Sep 08 - 01:52 PM
GUEST,Aln Bill 17 Sep 08 - 02:42 PM
GUEST,littleborough loyal 17 Sep 08 - 04:21 PM
Joe Offer 17 Sep 08 - 05:47 PM
GUEST,Jim Gorman 17 Sep 08 - 05:56 PM
MartinRyan 17 Sep 08 - 06:28 PM
The Fooles Troupe 17 Sep 08 - 08:52 PM
GUEST,Markyboy 17 Sep 08 - 08:56 PM
GUEST,Markyboy 17 Sep 08 - 09:21 PM
GUEST,Nitshill Bear 18 Sep 08 - 04:23 AM
MartinRyan 18 Sep 08 - 04:42 AM
GUEST 18 Sep 08 - 04:42 AM
Brakn 18 Sep 08 - 04:49 AM
John MacKenzie 18 Sep 08 - 05:11 AM
GUEST,Jack Union 18 Sep 08 - 07:22 AM
GUEST,Nitshill Bear 18 Sep 08 - 08:57 AM
GUEST,Aln Bill 18 Sep 08 - 09:24 AM
Big Tim 18 Sep 08 - 11:07 AM
John MacKenzie 18 Sep 08 - 11:11 AM
Manitas_at_home 18 Sep 08 - 11:16 AM
Jim McLean 18 Sep 08 - 12:07 PM
GUEST,Sleepless in Shettleston 18 Sep 08 - 02:27 PM
GUEST,Still Sleepless in Shettleston 18 Sep 08 - 02:28 PM
GUEST,Aln Bill 18 Sep 08 - 02:55 PM
Brakn 18 Sep 08 - 03:19 PM
Den 18 Sep 08 - 03:50 PM
Den 18 Sep 08 - 04:03 PM
ard mhacha 18 Sep 08 - 04:32 PM
GUEST,BUDGE316 18 Sep 08 - 05:38 PM
Jack Campin 18 Sep 08 - 06:07 PM
GUEST 18 Sep 08 - 06:28 PM
Den 18 Sep 08 - 06:40 PM
GUEST,Aln BIll 18 Sep 08 - 07:05 PM
Jack Campin 18 Sep 08 - 07:24 PM
Den 18 Sep 08 - 08:47 PM
Effsee 18 Sep 08 - 09:54 PM
GUEST,David Black 19 Sep 08 - 12:09 AM
GUEST,Aln Bill 19 Sep 08 - 04:34 AM
Seán Báite 19 Sep 08 - 09:12 AM
GUEST,Jack Union 19 Sep 08 - 09:34 AM
GUEST,Jack Union 19 Sep 08 - 09:51 AM
Brakn 19 Sep 08 - 09:57 AM
GUEST,Sleepless in Shettleston 19 Sep 08 - 11:09 AM
MartinRyan 19 Sep 08 - 11:14 AM
GUEST 19 Sep 08 - 02:11 PM
ard mhacha 19 Sep 08 - 04:49 PM
Effsee 19 Sep 08 - 10:10 PM
Seán Báite 20 Sep 08 - 05:45 AM
ard mhacha 20 Sep 08 - 08:00 AM
GUEST,Aln Bill 20 Sep 08 - 10:40 AM
Jack Campin 20 Sep 08 - 04:08 PM
GUEST,Aln Bill 21 Sep 08 - 09:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Sep 08 - 04:17 PM
GUEST,Aln Bill 21 Sep 08 - 04:44 PM
Brakn 21 Sep 08 - 05:58 PM
GUEST,Aln Bill 21 Sep 08 - 07:14 PM
Brakn 22 Sep 08 - 05:01 AM
GUEST,Aln Bill 22 Sep 08 - 11:05 AM
GUEST,Guest1872 22 Sep 08 - 11:06 AM
Brakn 22 Sep 08 - 01:25 PM
GUEST,Aln Bill 22 Sep 08 - 02:18 PM
GUEST 22 Sep 08 - 06:05 PM
John MacKenzie 22 Sep 08 - 06:19 PM
Brakn 22 Sep 08 - 06:26 PM
Brakn 22 Sep 08 - 06:33 PM
Brakn 22 Sep 08 - 06:36 PM
GUEST,Aln Bill 22 Sep 08 - 07:07 PM
GUEST,Jorrox 23 Sep 08 - 05:29 AM
GUEST,Aln Bill 23 Sep 08 - 06:50 AM
John MacKenzie 23 Sep 08 - 06:50 AM
GUEST,Jack Union 23 Sep 08 - 09:53 AM
Ythanside 23 Sep 08 - 06:08 PM
GUEST 23 Sep 08 - 06:19 PM
GUEST,canadiangael 23 Sep 08 - 06:43 PM
GUEST,Jorrox 24 Sep 08 - 06:59 AM
GUEST,Nitshill Bear 24 Sep 08 - 11:44 AM
Big Mick 24 Sep 08 - 11:56 AM
John MacKenzie 24 Sep 08 - 12:43 PM
ard mhacha 24 Sep 08 - 12:51 PM
ard mhacha 24 Sep 08 - 12:54 PM
GUEST,Aln Bill 24 Sep 08 - 02:05 PM
ard mhacha 24 Sep 08 - 02:31 PM
GUEST,backtothemusic 24 Sep 08 - 03:29 PM
GUEST,Aln Bill 24 Sep 08 - 06:19 PM
GUEST,Nitshill Bear 25 Sep 08 - 07:18 AM
GUEST,canadiangael 25 Sep 08 - 09:06 AM
GUEST,steve for francis 25 Sep 08 - 04:25 PM
GUEST,Aln Bill 25 Sep 08 - 06:16 PM
ard mhacha 26 Sep 08 - 04:18 AM
GUEST,Aln Bill 26 Sep 08 - 06:15 AM
John MacKenzie 26 Sep 08 - 10:49 AM
GUEST,canadiangael 26 Sep 08 - 10:51 AM
Manitas_at_home 26 Sep 08 - 10:57 AM
GUEST,Jack Union 26 Sep 08 - 11:02 AM
GUEST,Tam 26 Sep 08 - 11:09 AM
GUEST,Aln Bill 26 Sep 08 - 11:42 AM
John MacKenzie 26 Sep 08 - 12:52 PM
GUEST,a bemused Celtic fan 26 Sep 08 - 07:21 PM
GUEST,Aln Bill 27 Sep 08 - 05:38 AM
GUEST,Jack Union 27 Sep 08 - 10:45 AM
GUEST,canadiangael 27 Sep 08 - 05:04 PM
GUEST,canadiangael 27 Sep 08 - 10:45 PM
GUEST,Tam 28 Sep 08 - 06:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Sep 08 - 09:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Sep 08 - 09:10 AM
GUEST,Aln Bill 28 Sep 08 - 09:32 AM
GUEST,Jack Union 29 Sep 08 - 07:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Sep 08 - 07:51 AM
GUEST,Aln Bill 29 Sep 08 - 08:55 AM
GUEST,Jack Union 29 Sep 08 - 01:59 PM
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Subject: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 03:13 PM

Google "Rangers famine song" for details of the current stushie.

But all I can find is the chorus (tune: chorus of "The Sloop John B"):
Why don't you go home? why don't you go home?
The famine's over, why don't you go home?


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 04:11 PM

I can't find the words either, but I note the Irish government has complained. Where are the complaints when the Celtic fans sing anti British songs I wonder?
Not that I have any time for either side, as I loathe football, and all the hatred it engenders.

JM


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 04:52 PM

Well, the UK regime has the legal power to lock up an entire Celtic supporters' crowd indefinitely without access to a lawyer under present anti-terrorism laws for the sort of stuff they routinely sing, so I think they've taken care of the complaining for you.

What I could follow of that Rangers song (the YouTube sound was appalling) seemed like fairly innocuous banter to me.

I don't know why they bother having football teams at all, surely it's more fun for the opposite sides to just sing songs about Thompson guns and being knee-deep in blood at each other?


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: Brakn
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 05:07 PM

Knock this one down to the BS please.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 05:08 PM

Billy Connolly once described a Celtic v Rangers match, as an event where the opposing fans shouted insults at each other for 90 minutes. Then they went home and turned on the TV to find out what the score was.

JM


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 05:16 PM

It is about a song, so it's borderline.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 06:38 PM

If you listen to the YouTube clips you'd see the problem - the recordings are so bad the words are impossible to make out, even in the version sung by a duet. I would like to know what they are.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: MartinRyan
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 06:52 PM

For what it's worth, there seems to be a version HERE

Regards

p.s. B.S.?


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 07:57 PM

Well, one positive thing you can say about it is that Athenry Mike got telt.

Who is/was Large John?

Do we know who wrote the song and where it first appeared? A fanzine, at a guess?

The comment on the St Pauli board "Can you imagine the reaction if this was sung to black or Asian fans?" misses the point entirely. There is a long tradition of hyperbolic insult between Celtic and Rangers fans - this stuff isn't taken all that seriously by most of the people dishing it out. There is no such tradition of toothless offensiveness in relations between whites and blacks or Asians. Instead, the really dangerous white racists like the BNP leadership are creepily polite (up to the point when they're actually kicking your head in). I know which I'd least like to be on the receiving end of.

Whereas the Irish state getting involved is giving a paranoia-and-martyrdom fix to the small minority of Rangers fans who really *do* mean it. It's exactly what they want.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,Dinky
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 12:58 AM

As an american I can't understand why the celtic fans complain about the rangers songs, looks like its a bit one sided according to the telegraph, guess if they all went home would be better for everyone, So grab your shovel and get on yer bikes back to your homeland


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: Jim Lad
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 01:03 AM

As a Scot I can tell you that this topic is extremely volatile and does not belong in the music threads.
Please.
Move it down.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,Hail-Hail
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 01:09 AM

I don't think that guys an American, he's a jock, anyway I would go back, if Rangers did not have celtic there would be no scottish league, Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen, they would be nothing without celtic, anyway off to pack my shovel and oil the wheels on my bike, you let us in first, us bitter and twisted Tims, but now the place is full of Hamilton Accies, time to get out.


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Subject: ADDL The Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,the words for the song
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 03:40 AM

Famine Song

I often wonder where they would have been
If we hadn't have taken them in
Fed them and washed them
Thousands in Glasgow alone
From Ireland they came
Brought us nothing but trouble and shame
Well the famine is over
Why don't they go home?

Now Athenry Mike was a thief
And Large John he was fully briefed
And that wee traitor from Castlemilk
Turned his back on his own
They've all their Papists in Rome
They have U2 and Bono
Well the famine is over
Why don't they go home?

INSTRUMENTAL

Now they raped and fondled their kids
That's what those perverts from the darkside did
And they swept it under the carpet
and Large John he hid
Their evils seeds have been sown
Cause they're not of our own
Well the famine is over
Why don't you go home?

Now Timmy don't take it from me
Cause if you know your history
You've persecuted thousands of people
In Ireland alone
You turned on the lights
Fuelled U boats by night
That's how you repay us
It's time to go home.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: Paul Burke
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 04:21 AM

I think the response should be swift and simple. Football should be banned in Scotland, and the wage limit reimposed (at 1958 levels) in the rest of the UK.

The song is pretty nasty, and similar to the kind of songs churned out by Eastern European shite nationalists. Note that the BNP camp in Derbyshire recently invited a Czech waster along- one who advocates a "final solution" for the Roma.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,ND
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 04:40 AM

It's hypocritical of Rangers fans and other ignorant Scots to sing the "Famine Song". If they know their own history, countless Scots themselves suffered famine particularly in the Highlands where many had their clan lands taken from them and ammalgamated into English gentry owned estates.

Many hungry Scots emigrated to Canada and the USA, as did the Irish.

What if earlier settled British Columbians, Quebecians and Nova Scotians started to tell the Scots in those places to go home?

One thing the Scots forget or don't want to remember: The original Scoti were from Ireland, they migrated over to what is now Scotland and displaced or intermarried with the native Pictish.

Ireland > Scoti > Scotland.

Go figure.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,ND
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 04:49 AM

And one more thing: the Scots have a lot more in common with Ireland than they do with the English or Welsh:

the Gaelic language ("Clan" = Scottish / "Clann" = Irish), the heritage of whiskey/whisky, the bracken and heather, the ceili/ceilidh, and a lot more.

Scots should realise that the historical wedge driven between the culturally and racially related Irish and Scots was forged in the English crown court and parliament, right? The principle was simple: divide and conquer.

Anyway, there are the ignorant idiot types on both Celtic and Rangers sides, I suspect many are from their so-called inner city "turf"s, their common denominator being that they are shit-stirrers and jealous of others who succeed and overcome prejudices. That's how they get their kicks.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 04:55 AM

England has quite a lot of bracken and heather too.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: Brakn
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 04:55 AM

I don't know why this thread hasn't been removed.

If the KKK(with their long tradition) came out with the same song sung to Obama "slavery is over, why don't you go home" what would be the response?
Would we discuss that?


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: Jim Lad
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 05:19 AM

That song is directed at me and my family.
Please remove it.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,Paisley Monkey
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 05:38 AM

In response to Jack's comment, those lyrics are all that is ever sung.I'm so glad that nobody in England has reported the Tartan Army to the UK government for Flower of Scotlands lyics.This is now becoming silly.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,ND
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 05:59 AM

Sure Keith and I love those parts of England too, and places like the Lake District, Yorkshire, and so on.

Anyway, Scottish emigration was called "the Clearances" and it's a very emotive and suppressed topic, as the topic of the Famine is in Ireland. Needless to say, many English emigrated to Australia, Canada or the USA as well. Neither England, Ireland, Scotland nor Wales can opine that they weren't affected by hunger and emigration. It was a shared part of the history of these isles.

By the way there's a fine bronze Scottish Emigrants sculpture by artist Gerald Laing located at Helmsdale in Sutherland.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,ND
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 06:14 AM

"To understand the Clearances fully it is necessary to understand life as it used to be in the Scottish Highlands and Islands, home of the Gaels. The Gaels are the original Scots who arrived from Ireland about 1,500 years ago."

Source: http://www.highlandclearances.info/clearances/preclearances_thegaels.htm

So isn't it ironic that some or possibly many of those Rangers fans who are bigots may well be descended from Gaels and are therefore prejudicing their own blood kind?

'nuf said!


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 06:44 AM

Scottish Clearances – Massive over simplifications

"If they know their own history, countless Scots themselves suffered famine particularly in the Highlands where many had their clan lands taken from them and amalgamated into English gentry owned estates."

"One more thing: the Scots have a lot more in common with Ireland than they do with the English or Welsh"

"Scots should realise that the historical wedge driven between the culturally and racially related Irish and Scots was forged in the English crown court and parliament, right?"

"Many English emigrated to Australia, Canada or the USA as well"


Scottish clearances started a lot earlier than Guest ND would have us think – mid 1600's. Nothing whatsoever to do with the English Crown Court or parliament. Had quite a lot to do with a certain Scottish King who having moved down to London to become Monarch of both Scotland and England wanted to solve what he saw as being troubles in his "middle-shires" (i.e. the Anglo-Scottish borders). Solution was simple, or so it seemed, the Irish Nobility, primarily the O'Neill's, for much of Elizabeth's reign had been plotting with the Spaniards to hand over Ireland to Spain, with the O'Neill's of course serving as Governors of the whole new "colony". A largely catholic Ireland in the power of catholic Spain would have constantly threatened the new protestant countries of England and Scotland. So James I (England) & VI (Scotland) took the worst of the "riding" families of the borders and "planted" them in Northern Ireland (on forfeited O'Neill land). If anybody would fight for what they had been given it would be the family and kinsmen of the former "Marcher" Lords, after all they had been doing exactly that for all of the previous 350 years. Those were the first "Scottish Clearances".

The "Highland Clearances" also started earlier than is popularly supposed and they were started by Scottish land owners and clan chiefs when it became plain that rule of law and order meant that having large numbers of fighting men on your land was costly and inefficient, so they turned their lands over to cattle and sheep. Forfeited highland estates did not automatically go to "English" land owners or gentry, they went to the highest bidder, or were given for services rendered, most went to lowland Scots. More Scots fought for the Crown than for the Jacobite cause.

Only a tiny proportion of Scots share the ties mentioned by Guest ND. In terms of culture the majority of Scots have a great deal more in common with the English and the Welsh than with the Irish.

As far as emigration goes far more English emigrated than either Scots or Irish (To Australia for example for every 1 Irish emigrant there were either 3 or 4 from England). All the original 13 American Colonies were English settlements. Canada was settled originally by the Scots and English as well as the French.
As to "the song", anybody who pays the slightest notice to what the morons who watch either "Glasgow" side chant needs their bumps read. All those clowns ever succeed in doing is showing to the world at large what complete and utter fools they are. Were it not for the publicity stunt of the complaint to the Irish Government 99.9% of the people in the British Isles would never have known of the damn songs existence.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,ed
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 06:57 AM

Rangers fans singing "go home"? Most Rangers fans are descended from lowland 'Scots', planters, English in origin and no more 'native' than the Celtic fans of Irish origin that they are telling to 'go home' it makes me laugh because I have heard this at close quarters being sung by Northern Irish Rangers 'fans' who are themselves the progeny of planters. The Scoti as the Romans named them are in fact Irish as in Dalriada. The Rangers fans sing these songs to rile up the Celtic fans but using the innocent dead of a famine which took the lives of a million and a half men, women and children is particularly low and vile. Both sets of fans are guilty of engaging in vile songs and chants and it should be stamped out, Scotland along with Northern Ireland still seems to have this minority on both sides who just can't leave this sectarian bigotry behind. What is wrong with these people? Can they not support their team without reverting to this uncivilized and barbaric behaviour? Scotland as a country needs to address this and the morons who sing these sort of vile songs need to get a life!


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 07:53 AM

: countless Scots themselves suffered famine particularly in the Highlands

And many of them went to Glasgow, where they were not made a whole lot more welcome than the Irish, though they assimilated faster. People in Glasgow didn't suffer from famine.

: where many had their clan lands taken from them

Spare us that romanticizing bollocks. The clan system was dead and gone beyond living memory by the 1840s. Nobody thought of "clan lands" at that time.

The situation here is NOT parallel to slavery in the US or the treatment of Roma in Eastern Europe (or for that matter to the relationship between Palestinians and Zionists, despite some Celtic and Rangers fans making the connection and waving Palestinian and Israeli flags respectively at matches). It isn't even comparable to northern Ireland. There is nowhere near as much at stake, and just about the ONLY time the issue comes up these days is around football. Nobody in Glasgow is being dragged to death behind a car, forced to live in a shanty town, or getting their house bulldozed.

I agree it is not exactly a lovable song, but it's no worse than things already in the DT (and it belongs there).


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,Jack Union
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 09:26 AM

For your info Jack Campin - Large John in the song is Big Jock Stein, a man who knew, among other things, all about the bigotry doled out to Protestant employees of Celtic Football Club.

Jock Stein was probably Celtics greatest manager, they won multiple Cups, League Championships and the European Cup during his reign. Upon his retiral and after his not insignificant contribution he should have been given a seat on the board and looked after by the club for the rest of his days. However, being a Protestant and given the fact that Celtic had never had a Protestant on their board, he was shamefully treated by the club and, to all intents and purposes, given a job looking after the club lottery!

However badly Jock Stein was ultimately treated by the club he was revered by the support, who would regale anyone, who had the misfortune to be their audience, with misty-eyed tales of how there was absolutely nothing happened within miles of Celtic Park that Big Jock didn't know about. Apparently he always knew which slop-houses Jimmy Johnstone and Bertie Auld etc were lying unconcious in due to his information network. He knew exactly what all his players were up to at any given time, he knew what the board of directors were planning to do long before he was told. For decades, Celtic supporters would bore everyone to tears telling them how much Big Jock knew. Unfortunately the one thing that Big Jock appears to have known absolutely nothing about was the systematic child abuse by a peadophile ring of Celtic Football Club employees against an indeterminate number of children who played for Celtic Boys Club over a period of God knows how many years. It is, without a doubt, the biggest scandal ever to befall Scottish Football, ever! And Big Jock didn't know! What made it worse was that it was simply brushed over by a compliant Scottish media. Compare the front-page banner headlines about an obscure song that nobody could make out the words to by all accounts, and the media whitewash of the defiling of innocent children where the reporting was relegated to a few paragraphs on the inside pages. To the normal people out there I ask you which is worse? Pseudo-offensive song or child abuse?

Quite frankly, I am fed up with over-sensitive Celtic supporters whose moral indignation doesn't stretch far enough to condemn their own kind who "celebrate" The Ibrox Disaster where 66 innocent people, including women and children went to watch a game of football and never came home. Who also celebrate atrocities like the Enniskillen Poppy Day Massacre and the Omagh Bombing and who cannot wait "until there are no Protestants left." Don't bother trying to tell me that it's only a minority who have this view either. Anyone who bothers to scratch at the surface of this mob will find a deep-rooted hatred for Britain, Unionism, Protestantism and Rangers Football Club. Not necessarily in that order.

As long as football rivalries exist there will be offensive songs. It doesn't matter whether it's Rangers-Celtic, Man Utd-Liverpool or Cowdenbeath-East Fife the song is sung with the primary intention of winding up your rivals. However for some muppet to go as far as to complain to foreign state about a song being sung at a football match says an awful lot more about himself than it does about the people who were singing it.

For all the intellectual historians above who have tried to dissect the pysche behind The Famine Song - don't! Here it is in a nutshell. Most Rangers fans (but not all admittedly)that I know have absolutely no problem with anyone, regardless of colour, creed or religion, with the exception of terrorists and their sympathisers who come to our shores for succour and refuge then attempt to bomb and blast us into their way of thinking. Whether they be Irish Terrorists or Al Qaeda, as far as I am concerned they can go home, they are not welcome! For that I make no apology.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 11:37 AM

There would seem to be no point in deleting the words of this song which someone posted earlier, and leaving the thread to continue.
If it can't be discussed fully, then delete this thread.

JM

We are not in the habit of eliminating threads just because the content is controversial. Nor is this going to be moved to BS, as it revolves entirely around a song. There are any number of examples of similar discussions that one can find over the years. What will be eliminated is personal attack. Heated discussion about the lyrics are fine, personal attacks are not. Muderator


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 11:57 AM

Then why remove the lyrics of the song the thread revolves around? Don't get me wrong I hold no brief on either side here, and find the whole thing hateful, I just find the deletion inappropriate.

JM


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: Jim Lad
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 11:58 AM

If this song was about blacks and Asizis complained, you would move it.
The song is typical of the bigoted religious taunts which Catholics in Scotland face on a daily basis and which ultimately drove me and others like me from my own country.
I have alluded to this fact in another thread a long time ago.
Jock Mackenzie is behaving just like those bigot's.
Delete the damn thread.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 12:12 PM

It is pointless bringing history into the equation where this song is concerned. Few of the people involved know anything much about it or are in the least bit interested

Anyone who has an insight to the psyche of the Glesca fitba' hooligan must be laughing their socks off at this.

The masts to which the fans pin their colours are over 300 years old and are merely a vehicle for them to vent their nonsense in each other's direction.

Celtic fans belt out the 'Fields of Athenrye' celebrating the struggle of the Irish poor rebelling against the famine and the British Crown and the Rangers fans have (quite recently in fact) now started responding with the 'Famine Song'.

My advice to all concerned would be to grow up and get a life. My advicae to governments, police and football authorities would be to steer clear and, by so doing, deny these idiots the credence the seek.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: Jim Lad
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 01:52 PM

I thought guests were supposed to leave a name.
Upon reflection, I have to say that John Mackenzie is actually trying to bring some kind of reason to this thread.
Having myself, been raised on the other side of the fence, the wounds are too deep and the scars too many for me to discuss this topic in a reasonable fashion.
My apologies to all.
Jim Brannigan


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,Aln Bill
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 02:42 PM

Just to point out that the "full version" of the song, with multiple verses posted above, is a COMPLETELY artificial construct.

The only lines EVER sung by Rangers fans are to the tune of "Sloop John B", and are:

"Why don't you go home?
Why don't you go home?
The famine's over,
Why don't you go home?"

Nothing more, nothing less.

(The "full version" appears to have been strangely whisked up by somebody with too much time on their hands and not enough rhythm in their body).


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,littleborough loyal
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 04:21 PM

why is there no uproar when the scum in green and grey sing songs about killing british soldiers and making death threats to rangers players maybe its just another irish folk song


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 05:47 PM

Well, there were three identical copies of the lyrics posted, and two were deleted. The first posting of the lyrics was deleted, but I can't tell if the deletion was done before or after the second copy was posted. All three lyrics posts appear to have come from this page, which Martin Ryan linked toward the top of the thread - but our policy is that we generally post music information for discussion, in addition to posting a link.
There seems to be an interesting difference here between European and American thinking. I rarely get requests from Americans that lyrics be deleted, no matter how objectionable they are. Americans want to see, and judge for themselves. I often get demands from Euopeans that thus-and-such should be deleted, and how can Mudcat allow such tripe to be posted.
Yeah, the song is awful - but it's interesting. The "awful" songs we have nowadays are the only examples of the "folk process" we have remaining in this world. Almost all other songs are commercially produced.
So, yes, I am disgusted by the song and the sentiments it portrays. But I am also appalled by the thought of deleting it, or deleting the discussion of such a song. Nonetheless, we do watch thread like this and try to control the nameless bigoted posts that some of our drive-by anonymous posters leave behine.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,Jim Gorman
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 05:56 PM

I often wonder where they would have been....
    This is the fourth copy-paste of the very same lyrics in this thread. We've deleted all but one. Full text above (click).
    -Joe Offer-

There is the words to this song, now look at it and tell me it is not bigoted, and also glorifies chid abuse. Scotlands Shame


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: MartinRyan
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 06:28 PM

GUESTJim

The words have been posted here three times already, thanks.

It appears that, in practice, only the chorus is sung at matches. This effectively turns it into a football chant rather than a song. Anyone think of other examples of this happening? There are certainly chants which use the chorus tune/structure of well-known songs - but this case is different. Was the verse created after the chant, so to speak? Some of the poor versifying would suggest the latter.


Regards


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 08:52 PM

Me Eyes ain't what they used ta be...

I thought the title was "The Fannie Song"

Don't worry, they used ta be me ears...


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,Markyboy
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 08:56 PM

There's an old adage that many seem to be ignoring ... two wrongs don't make a right.

ALL bigotry and racism, which the lyrics of this so-called 'song' seem to reflect whether sung in full or not, is undesirable. Nothing against people celebrating and remembering their diverse cultural heritage but when it's obviously deliberately offensive it has no place; particularly in a Glasgow footbal context, as those who have suffered the injuries from the fall-out of mindless thuggery that all too often follows these games will attest to.

People of all persuasions ought to take a more responsible approach to their behaviour, particularly in this context, as the petty points scoring noted above establishes beyond doubt. It's an e-forum equivalent to how the pub and street arguments start that end in mindless violence.

As wee Fergus would have said, get a reality check.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,Markyboy
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 09:21 PM

On Joe's observations re the difference in American and European thinking; it is a very interesting cultural difference and it's good to see some sensible discussion about the socio-political backdrop to music of whatever kind.

In America, there seems to be the tradition, from the Constiution I suppose, of the luxury, if one can call it that, of true unfettered freedom of speech, although I'm sure my American cousins would have something to say about that in the light of Patriot Act etc but nevertheless, in Europe the contrast is, under the ECHR, it's legitimate to fetter freedom of speech for example to protect public order.

That contrast is interesting and makes a very interesting European backdrop to protest songs or political songs generally but I think it's probably stretching academic legitmacy to overly analyse this song as such. Surely, anyone with respect for human life would have to concede that whilst this song is by objective definition 'music', most right thinking folk probably wouldn't give it house-room.

It's basically a racist rant set to music and I'm sure we can all think of more worthy topics to discuss.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,Nitshill Bear
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 04:23 AM

MarkyBoy, I totally agree, two wrongs don't make a right. I'd also suggest that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. I could swallow this whole stushie if I thought there was an even-handedness about the reportage and subsequent action by any legitimate authorities. But as certain parties are permitted to spew their bile with impunity, it's very hard to take all the faux-moralising from the press, the Sellick fans and the inumerable nameless strangers on the Internet. Celtic have turned "being offended" into a cottage industry. It's time to expose them for what they are.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: MartinRyan
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 04:42 AM

This thread has been worth it for introducing me to the word "stushie"! It's wonderful!

Regards


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 04:42 AM

Just to re-emphasis the BIG point here: the FOUR lines are ALL that is sung.

The "complete song" is a fabrication.
You can pwerhaps ask yourself WHO fabricated it.

This small chant has been sung for over a YEAR now, including last season.
It would appear that the outrage felt by certain people has a long fuse.

The chant is NOT "racist" or "discriminatory" -- the very people singing it themselves have strong roots in the very island that the Famine occurred in, and doubtless their own ancestors suffered too.

The theme of the four-line chant is to ask why people who yearn for "their home country" don't just go home?!

Unfortunately, Celtic fans have previous for scurrilous accusations: they accused Rangers (wrongly) over banning green pepperami, eggs benedict, of cutting their pitch into the shape of a ceremonial sash, of wearing socks with red tops that symbolised blood, etc, etc.

It's a scattergun approach, and yet again the world has been taken in.
Taken in by fans who admit to sympathising with terrorists, who mocked the 9-11 tragedy with airplane gestures to an American Rangers player, who threw bananas onto the pitch when Rangers' black player Mark Walters played, and whose Boys Club were involved in the worst case of child abuse in Scotland's recent history.

But they STILL try to make out that a chant asking why people don't go home is offensive !!!


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: Brakn
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 04:49 AM

Now you know why Ranger's fans are so well thought of around the world.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 05:11 AM

Only those who were born and brought up in the Glasgow area is able to truly appreciate the insidiousness of this Rangers/Celtic, Celtic/Rangers divide.
As Jim Brannigan says, it has driven people from their homes, and even their countries.
Most of you will never know the fear of being approached when you are standing at a bus stop, by a gang of threatening looking characters, and being asked "Whit team dae ye support?"
If you want to avoid a kicking, you better give the right answer, otherwise that's you for a bruising.
This; for no other reason than the fact you may support another team, and let me tell you from painful experience, it doesn't help to say "I'm not interested in football"
While there are efforts on the go, to try and stamp out this prejudice, it is in a lot of cases a waste of time.
There is a red neck element on BOTH sides, who received their hatred mixed with their mother's milk, and they will always exist.
Those are the sort of people who look on their offspring marrying a member of the opposite faith, in the same light as a KKK member who's offspring married a black person.
Make no mistake about it, it's as serious as life its self in certain quarters, and as I said at the start. You have to have been there to know what you're talking about.

JM


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,Jack Union
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 07:22 AM

Am I missing something here?

I wholeheartedly agree that the rivalry between Rangers and Celtic supporters often oversteps the boundaries of good taste. Are we to seriously believe though that the singing of a semi-offensive song is to be the catalyst for people being driven from their homes?

John MacKenzie is correct when he says there is a redneck element on both sides, however the vast majority of Rangers and Celtic fans indulge in a bit of 90 minute bigotry and go back to work on Monday and work happily alongside their colleagues from the other side and indulge in a bit of football banter. The thugs who administer a good kicking because you support the wrong team are not exclusively Rangers or Celtic supporters. People like that live and breathe in every town and city in the UK. English hooligans used to favour asking an unfortunate pedestrian what the time was. If he responded in a non-local accent then the next few minutes would be pretty miserable for him. Tribalism like this is not exclusive to the Old Firm. If you get the chance watch "The Real Football Factories" series presented by Danny Dyer from the crap "Hooligan" film, The Football Factory. The second series covered football hooligan activity worldwide. Some of the Firms in South America and particularly the Former Yugoslavian Republics make Rangers-Celtic look like a Sunday School trip.

I must confess I was unaware of the full lyrics until yesterday, but whilst it may not be full of sunshine, lollipops and rainbows, I don't consider them to be any more offensive than many other songs and chants sung at football grounds everywhere by fans of all teams. All it really says is that there is no longer a reason for you to subject yourselves to living in Britain, which you clearly hate, so feel free to return "home". As stated by other contributors the chorus was sung to wind-up Scottish Celtic supporters, who live a lie and who are as Irish as Robert the Bruce, on a day when their team took a severe beating from their greatest rivals. To attempt to twist the facts and draw parallels with BNP and KKK and ethnic cleansing of people from their homes and countries is typical of mindset of these permanently-offended clowns.

Yesterday I mentioned the guy who complained to the Irish Consul about the song, but truth is now that I am pleased he opened up the can of worms. It has backfired spectacularly and he has now exposed to a wider audience the cretins within his compatriots who have, for far too long now, been able to sing their songs of murder, hate and alleged martyrdom of dead terrorists, but who have been shielded by sympathetic journalists who take great pleasure in highlighting Rangers' less savoury elements at every opportunity.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,Nitshill Bear
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 08:57 AM

John MacKenzie needs to stop hanging around bus stops in Possil.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,Aln Bill
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 09:24 AM

Of course, complaints about Rangers songs areb't a new thing --- several years ago a certain Rangers legal man sang a song at a private function and was chased from football office for it.
That song has since been verified in a Scottish court of law as "not sectarian".

Last year Celtic fans were successful in getting another Rangers fans' song banned, on the basis that it referred to an unpleasant Glasgow gang ... from over fifty years ago.

Shame that their own "gang-related" songs have never been targeted in a similar manner.

Indeed, Rangers fans are in the unusual situation of being banned from singing ANY words to a certain tune, and yet ... hearing other clubs' fans across Scotland and England singing what they want to that tune.
How's that for selective musical censorship ??!!

And ... we now hear that the Spanish consulate in Scotland has been in touch with Scottish authorities to complain about a recent piece of craic from Celtic fans -- their death threats to the Spanish Catholic Rangers player.

Still, that CAN'T be a s offensive as asking a simple question, can it ????


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: Big Tim
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 11:07 AM

The Famine song is just a wind-up. Relax, don't do it. When two tribes go to war, a point is all that you can score.                                                

My fellow Celtic fans aren't perfect either. Last time I was at Celtic Park (in 2005, the night we drew with Hearts and won the League), I was disgusted by the drunken idiot next to me who kept shouting 'up the RA' (IRA). Mind you, he was just reacting to some nearby, virulent Hearts fans.

The daftest, most insulting and most irrational Rangers chant is 'we are the people'.

Martin, re 'stushie', I recommend 'Chambers Concise Scottish Dictionary'!


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 11:11 AM

I thought 'Wee are the people' was the war cry of the pygmies.
Which I suppose, makes it suitable for the mental pygmies on both sides.

JM


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 11:16 AM

You've got that confused with 'We're the Illawee!"


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: Jim McLean
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 12:07 PM

When Rangers played in Israel, the followers started chanting 'we are the people' and the opposition replied 'but we are the chosen people'.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,Sleepless in Shettleston
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 02:27 PM

Some years ago, there was a kind of a copyright-related argument about a book title, "No Pope of Rome", derived from a Rangers song which I haven't heard for a while. To the tune of "Home on the Range", it went:

"Oh --- no Pope of Rome,
No chapels to sadden my eyes,
No nuns and no priests,
And no Rosary beads,
Every day is the Twelth of July"

The author of the book imagined that this stuff was an example of "the folk process in action"; but he was sued by the author, apparently prepared to own up to having composed these lines. I've heard Celtic fans shouting their own version of this, which goes:

"Oh---------------- Pope of Rome!
And chapels to sadden (sic) my eyes,
There's nuns and there's priests,
And Rosary beads,
And we don't have the Twelth of July"

Recently, on a bus passing Celtic Park ("The dear old Paradise..."), I heard a new one which shows that the wordsmiths keep abreast of current affairs. To the air of "Comin' round the mountain" (or, in Glaswegian, "Ye cannae shove yer grannie aff a 'bus"), the sartorial admission,

"I'd rather wear a turban than a Sash..."
(part of the apparel of the Orange Order - like white gloves and black bowler hat - as its members celebrate the anniversary of a battle three hundred years past by marching with increasing unsteadiness through the streets of Glasgow escorted by hundreds of Polis and cursed by thousands of delayed motorists)

Finally (just to sweep some more related material together), mention of Jock Stein - manager of Celtic at or about the same time as a certain Colin Stein played for Rangers - brings to mind a song I heard as a child, the last line of which I still find hilarious, though I doubt that wasn't the intention:

"We hate Jock Stein and Davie Hay,
We hate the Pope and the I.R.A.,
We've got Greig and we've got Stein,
And Her Majesty (pause) The Queen"


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,Still Sleepless in Shettleston
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 02:28 PM

"Twelfth" is a difficult word to remember....


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,Aln Bill
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 02:55 PM

Some splendid lyrics there (from both sets of fans).

However ... the lyrics that IS sung EVERY week at Celtic Park ( by celtic fans) are:

" and soon there'll be no Protestants at all."

Now ... I wonder if that could be construed as offensive or sectarian ??


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: Brakn
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 03:19 PM

Both.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: Den
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 03:50 PM

I don't find the chorus offensive when taken in context with The Fields of Athenry. The verses however are another matter. I wonder what Neal Lennon would have to say about all of this.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: Den
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 04:03 PM

That should of course be Neil Lennon.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: ard mhacha
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 04:32 PM

Neil Lennon, is he the Celtic coach who was beaten up by two Rangers fans in a Glasgow street last week?, and we were told that Scotland was free of bigotry.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,BUDGE316
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 05:38 PM

This is just typical west of Scotland football banter

Tit for tat one up-manship

As a Rangers fan I take the good with the bad and treat as it should be taken as banter however we are not allowed to sing another song yet celtic fabs can go ahead and sing what they want although a new version has sprung up

Tell all the Tims you know
That potatoes in Ireland now grow
Take your bombs an your guns
Your priests and your nuns
The famines iver Just go

Wonder how long before this is banned

and for the record the chorus came first the verse has sprung up over the last week or so and I have never heard it sung at the football.

Also the words famine can be replaced with party so the parties over why dont you go home after the oppoising team has been beat


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 06:07 PM

If it hasn't been sung at a match yet, how do you know it? (You may be new here - we like tracing things to their source).

Did you write it, or is it from a fanzine? I can't identify what it's a parody of, so I can't guess the tune.

This fixation with terrorism seems to be a pretty recent concern (well postdating the most violent phase of the Troubles). A friend of mine was in a Rangers-supporters pub near Ibrox when the news of the Brighton Hotel bombing came through on the telly. The whole place erupted into spontaneous cheers. The punters must all have guessed instantly that the IRA had done it, but the desire to see Thatcher dead was so general in Scotland at the time that a "well done lads" to the other side was a perfectly natural reaction.

And c'mon, did even the bluest of blue-noses really get that outraged at the IRA targeting the City of London? How many of the crowd in Ibrox are Names at Lloyds?


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 06:28 PM

I know it as had about 10 text messages from other supporters for a song for saturday and it is on a lot of the websites

Cabt think of the name of the song the tune is from but is used for a variety of different songs from both sides

It is a old time American western piano tune

With regards to the bombings in London regardless of who has been targeted it is an outrage and an afront todecent human beings

Thats like saying its ok to bomb certain people but remember they are all some mothers son

was it justifiable for the bombers that targeted the tubes and buses in London a couple of years ago?

But this is not a debate over terrorism but over a football chant and how it can escalate into an international incident


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Subject: ADD: Tribe (Barry Moore/Luka Bloom)
From: Den
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 06:40 PM

I think this is a more poignant lyric from Barry Moore brother of Christy, better known possibly as Luka Bloom.

Tribe
(Barry Moore/Luka Bloom)

I hope the rain holds off just for today
I hope it doesn't rain on your parade
Kick up your white heels and wave your flags around
Kick up your white heels parading in our town

Oh, where is my tribe
Oh, where is my tribe

All around the side streets, needles look for veins
Where bullets found their mark in old rebellions
Others stand saluting, saying this is who I am
A piece of cloth, a field, an island

Oh, where is my tribe
Oh, where is my tribe

Joyce lies in Zurich, Beckett lies in France
What anthem has the tune to their dance
Who is my tribe, is it only green
Or is it in the rainbow of my dreams

Oh, where is my tribe
Oh, where is my tribe

My tribe is the swallow, flying to be home
My tribe is the heron, who never feels alone
My tribe is in Pine Ridge, my tribe's in Alice Springs
My tribe is in the heartbeat of all things

Home's a place inside, I take it with me
I meet my tribe wherever I may be
It's good to lay your head down outside
It's good to dance around the tribe

Oh, where is my tribe...


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,Aln BIll
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 07:05 PM

Just to correct the story about Neil Lennon and his being "beaten up by two Rangers fans":

Neil Lennon doesn't want to press any charges.
Nobody saw anybody "attack" Lennon.
Nobody heard anybody "attack" Lennon.
Strathclyde Police have had the CCTV tapes of the "incident" for over a week now and can't find anything on the tapes to indicate that there was ANY "attack".

In other words, there's NO evidence at ALL of any "attack".

Contrast and compare that with the well-witnessed incident on the same day of a Rangers fan being attacked by four Celtic-top wearing fans at Clydebank.
Lennon's phantom "attack" was deemed newsworthy.
The ACTUAL attack by four onto one was scarcely reported.

Nor indeed was the recent pro-terrorist graffiti on a public house associated with a former Rangers player.

Nor the well-witnessed attack on a Church of Scotland woman minister's car in Bellshill by six Catholic blazer-wearing schoolchildren.

So .. now you know. Lennon's attack probably didn't actually happen, and there have been two or three other varied incidents that HAVE happened, but ... strangely are under-reported.


Getting back to the song --- the four lines ONLY have been sung.
The so-called "full version" is a fabrication, and has NEVER been sung by Rangers fans at a football match.


Bringing up the terrorist aspect is an interesting one --- to suggest that Rangers fans weren't bothered by the bombings of London and Warrington and Omagh is incorrect.
However, it is Celtic fans that sing songs that GLORIFY the perpetrators of these outrages.

And they aren't just your usual green-tinted old Bhoys songs -- they are the full blooded celebrations of the deaths of British civilians and soldiers.

But ... surely they aren't as offensive as a small song asking why people who yearn for another country don't just go home ... ???


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 07:24 PM

GUEST (please give yourself a name or your posts will vanish, which would be a pity as you obviously know what you're talking about):

Now that IS a new one on me. I'd never thought of mobile phones as a medium for transmitting new songs before, but it makes perfect sense for this sort of song, where you want to assemble a decent-sized choir before the next match.

Makes life a lot more difficult for anyone wanting to trace where new song ideas come from, though.

Also, since you can use your mobile as a songsheet, it makes longer songs possible. And the bigger the screen the more words you can sing off it. The broadside ballad publishers of 200 years ago would be green with envy at the iPhone.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: Den
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 08:47 PM

GUEST,Aln BIll to be fair to Lennon that was the second time he was attacked in which was deemed by the media to be sectarian related. He also had to give up the captaincy of the N. Ireland team and eventually walk away from the team altogether because he and his family were threatened by sectarian thugs. I don't condone any of the violence at all. I think its a poor day when someone can't go to a football match without being abused verbally or physically. I see no need to bring sectarianism into the equation.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: Effsee
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 09:54 PM

I think Richard Harris summed it up pretty well:-

Too Many Saviours on My Cross

There are too many saviours on my cross lending their blood to flood out my ballot-box with needs of their own.
Who put you there? Who told you that that was your place?
You carry me secretly naked in your hearts, and clothe me publicly in armour, saying "God is on our side,"
Yet I openly cry "Who is on My side? Who, tell Me, who?
You who buried your sons and crippled your fathers whilst you buried My Father in crippling His Son."
The antiquated Saxon sword, rusty in its scabbard of time, now rises.
You gave it cause in My name, bringing shame to the thorned head that once bled for your salvation.
I hear your cries in the far-off byways, and your mouth pointing north and south,
and my Calvary looms again, desperate in rebirth.
Your earth is partitioned but in contrition it is the partition in your hearts that you must abolish.
You nightly watchers of Gethsemane, who sat through my nightly trial delivering me from evil,
now, deserted, I watch you share your silver.
Your purse, rich in hate, bleeds my veins of love, shattering my bone in the dust of the Bogside and the Shankhill Road.
There is no issue stronger than the tissue of love,
no need as holy as the palm outstretched in the run of generosity, no monstrosity greater than the anger you inflict.
Who gave you the right to increase your fold while decreasing the pastures of My flock?
Who gave you the right? Who gave it to you, who? And in whose name do you fight?
I am not in heaven, I am here, hear Me.
I am with you, see Me, I am in you, feel Me,
I am of you, be Me, I am for you, need Me.
I am all mankind, only through kindness will you reach Me.
What masked and bannered men can rock the ark and navigate a course to their own anointed kingdom come?
Who sailed their captain to waters that they troubled in My font, sinking in the ignorant seas of prejudice?
There is no virgin willing to conceive in the heat of any bloody Sunday.
You children, lying in cries on Derry streets, pushing your innocence into the full-flushed face of Christian guns,
battling the blame on each other,
Do not grow tongues in your dying dumb wounds speaking My name.
I am not your prize in your death, you have exorcised Me in your game of politics.
Go home on your knees, and worship Me in any cloth, for I was never tailor-made.
And who told you I was? Who gave you the right to think it?
Take your beads in your crippled hands. Can you count My decades?
Take My love in your crippled hearts. Can you count the loss?
I am not orange, I am not green, I am a half-ripe fruit, needing both colors to grow into ripeness,
and shame on you to have withered my orchard!
I, in my poverty, alone and without trust, cry shame on you and shame on you again and again
for converting Me into a bullet and shooting Me into men's hearts.
The ageless legend of My trial grows old, and the youth of your pulse,
staggering shamelessly from barricade to grave,
filing in the book of history My needless death one April.
Let Me in My betrayal lie low in My grave, and you in your bitterness lie low in yours,
for our measurements grow strangely dissimilar.
Our Father, who art in Heaven, sullied be Thy Name!


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,David Black
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 12:09 AM

I'd also like to support those who've said the "full" version of the song is a total fabrication and has never been sung in in public place or recorded PRIOR to the complaints lodged after the Celtic - Rangers match on 31/8. As this forum is a great place for tracing the origins of songs, we similarly have to do a better job of debunking myths which are planted for 'political' reasons and to support media witch hunts (the media like the idea that there's a nasty full version, else the story is pretty weak about someone not liking a chant).

The four verse version has been around for about a year and there are a few You Tube videos which have it in. I remember one from the UEFA Cup Final in May 2008 where a modest group of Rangers fans in a Manchester pub sings the 4 verse version to some Zenit fans (obviously beofre the game!). Given that the Rangers fans pretty much had free reign of Manchester that day and say full versions of many bigoted/banned sectarian songs the "full" version of this song was not heard and there is no evidence for it.

The chances of a four line chant/song being expanded and fully adopted as the "true" multi-verse song with quite strong sectarian references in just a couple of short months wether by mobile phones or other technology is extremely remote. Folk songs bed in over time and this would be totally against the grain. Look at the adoption time for "Flower of Scotland" to become a cultural norm and popular folk ballad from time of writing... its in the decades!

So in short, there is nothing to suggest the "full" version is in any way authentic. The short four line chant is clearly authenticated and has a clear logical basis as a responsive taunt to a Celtic fans' song about the Irish Famine. There is nothing bigoted or sectraian in there... childish and purile maybe. I think the interesting bit here would be to dig around and see if other teams have used the taunt in response to the Celtic song... that'd make sense and is a pretty common trait, no?

The media is very good at adopting their own "truths" and I think the discussion on this site with all it's time-stamps etc. will serve as a good record of the popular disagreement around the songs origins. For now though, it's froth and hysteria. Thank you for this site.

Not a Rangers or Celtic fan but a Scot who follows football from afar.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,Aln Bill
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 04:34 AM

Great post by David Black there --- the concept of "flash mobing" isn't a new one, but the successful dissemination of such lengthy lyrics in such a short span of time is rather dubious.


Den, I appreciate your point re Neil Lennon: he certainly was attacked in a previous incident, when he got out of his car to remonstrate with a pair of drunks. That was a distasteful episode.

However, unfortunately within the world of footballers, it's not rare. Every week, footballers from almost every club in the world are subject to the same, and perhaps it's interesting to think of how long Neil Lennon has lived in Glasgow and of how many times (once!) that he has had such a run-in.

(btw, Lennon's addres is well known amongst Rangers fans -- but footballers' homes are left alone, uless you happen to be that Spanish catholic playing for Rangers who had death threats daubed outside his house last year by Celtic fans).

Lennon's Northern Ireland career was all down to him. There have been plenty of other Catholic NI players at Celtic FC, all of whom were received well by their own countrymen.
Unfortunately, Neil Lennon went out of his way on the football pitch (caught on camera calling Rangers staff "dirty Or*nge bast*rds" and going out of his way to spit on a Rangers scarf during a game) to make himself unpopular.

This man, the same guy who was also caught texting physical threats to his pregnant girlfriend, has gone out of his WAY to make himself a hate figure.


btw, getting back to music, I mentioned previously that Rangers fans are unique that they are baned from singing ANY lyrics to a certain tune ("Marching through Georgia") and yet every other fan in the entire world can sing whatever they want to it.
Isn't that a bit strange ??


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: Seán Báite
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 09:12 AM

"There have been plenty of other Catholic NI players at Celtic FC, all of whom were received well by their own countrymen"

Yeah, tell that to Anton Rogan.. Or maybe name us a few 'well-received' Celtic Norn Iron players. Lennon wasn't just 'attacked' - he was put under a death threat by the LVF.

Whole thing reminds me about the Dominic Behan (though he probably nicked it from elsewhere) comment about the absurdity of people in the North (and by extension in Glasgae) keeping going a 300 year old feud between 2 foreign kings that never gave a tinker's curse for them in the first place....


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,Jack Union
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 09:34 AM

to Aln Bill,

You hit the nail on the head regarding Lennon, I have never known a player from either side of the Old Firm be so reviled by fans the other Scottish teams - and it isn't because of his religion its because of his abrasive, menacing personality and his willingness to manipulate any situation for his own ends.


With regards to Jack Campin's claim about Rangers fans cheering an IRA bombing!!! Methinks the mists of time have clouded your friends memory. I attended my first Rangers match in 1974 and have known Rangers men all my life, and in all that time can say without fear of contradiction that no pub which counts Rangers diehards as its regulars would cheer an IRA bombing regardless of the target. I could be wrong, but was the bomb not timed to go off in the middle of the night so that all the Tory party delegates would be in their beds. Therefore even without todays 24hour news coverage it would still be early morning news headlines. It begs the question, What time was your mate drinking at? Also, at the time of the bombing Thatcher's few remaining supporters left in Scotland would most certainly have come from the Unionist Rangers support. I think you should put this down to your mate's fertile imagination.

I think we may now be digressing from the original subject of the thread. The facts are pretty much as above that its all a big wind-up and they went for it hook, line and sinker. Sadly, the truth is that Rangers and Celtic fans will continue to fire insults at each other long after we are all dead and gone. Nothing will change. Hail Hail's contribution awaaaaaaay up at the top of the page is right about Rangers needing Celtic - but not a smidgen more than Celtic need Rangers either. If you look at it properly, we feed off each other. Without Rangers and Celtic the Scottish league would be no better than that of either of the Irish leagues.

I look forward to contributing to the next non-event that has that paranoid mob in a lather and firing off e-mails and letters to bemused foreign diplomats.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,Jack Union
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 09:51 AM

To Sean Baite

Lennon did not receive death threats from the LVF. They publicly announced that the threat was not from them and that they did not intend to harm Lennon in any way. The most likely explanation is that the threat came from an individual with too much loose change in his pocket, and an intense dislike for Lennon, phoning a newspaper.

I accept a threat is a threat and if Lennon chose not to play against Cyprus then thats up to him. But instead of trying to forget about the unsavoury episode, he compounded the affair by claiming it was about his religion. He earned 40 caps for Norn Iron up until then without incident. Is it safe to assume he was a Roman Catholic at that time? Lennon milked the situation for what it was worth.

Any chance you could be more specific ant the Anton Rogan threats? I cannot recall him receiving death threats, or any other kind of threats for that matter whilst playing for his country. Rogan was regarded by most people outside Celtic Park as a loveable fool due to his uncanny ability to give away penalties.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: Brakn
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 09:57 AM

I just wished they'd both stop harping back to things that are irrelevant now; The Pope, the Queen, the Famine, the IRA, the Battle of The Boyne.

For me the Pope and catholicism, the Queen and Britishness, nationalism and religion are relics of a bygone age as are flags. Anyone who is racist or bigotted is not welcome in my house.

As for Northern Ireland, I can't work out why the Northern Ireland F.A. would want to alienate half their population by playing God Save The Queen before their home games. Is it that they don't want whole country behind them? Would you want it in Scotland or Wales.

I stopped going to foootball years ago - it's bollocks.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,Sleepless in Shettleston
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 11:09 AM

With regard to Aln Bill's mention of the line "Soon there'll be no Protestants at all" (or, as it usually comes over, "Soon they'll be nae Proddaysints at all"), this is from a parody/version of a song called "On the One Road", which strikes me as a well intentioned call for Irish unity (of a rather militant, and clearly Republican cast). As far as I can see, it's not in the Database; as far as I recall from years ago, it goes like this:

Chorus

"We're on the one road, sharing the one road,
On the road to God knows where;
On the long road, maybe the wrong road,
We're together now - who cares?
Northmen, Southmen, comrades all,
Dublin, Belfast, Cork and Donegal,
On the one road, swinging along,
Singing 'The Soldier's Song'"

"So, we've had our quarrels now and then (!):
Now's the time to make them up again.
Sure, aren't we all Irish anyhow,
And we've got to step together now...

On the one road &c.

Butcher, baker, every mother's son;
Tinker, tailor, shouldering a gun,
Rich man, poor man, every man in line,
Step together now, for Auld Lang Syne...

On the one road   &c.

Night is darkest just before the dawn;
From the dust, Old Ireland is reborn;
Soon will all United Irishmen
See their land 'A Nation Once Again'...

On the one road &c."


The Celtic Football Fans' version goes:

"On the one road, sharing the one road,
On the road to God knows where;
On the long road, maybe the wrong road,
We're together now, who cares:
Northmen, Southmen, comrades all,
Soon there'll be nae Proddaysints at all,
On the one road, swinging along,
Singing a Soldier's Song..."

I've never heard anyone (except, I think, Dominic Behan on a record) sing anything except the chorus, and the last line, "Singing the Soldier's Song" invariably leads into a version of the Chorus of Peadar Kearney's "Amhran na bhFiann", the National Anthem of the Irish Republic:

"Soldiers are we, whose lives are pledged to Ireland;
Some are come from the land beyond the wave;
Sworn to be free; no more our ancient Sireland
Shall shelter the despot or the slave:
Tonight we man the Bearna Baoil, (The "Gap of Danger")
In Erin's cause come woe or weal;
Midst cannons' roar, and rifles' peal,
We will chant a Soldier's Song"

I hear the Celtic Football Fans' version as:

"Soldiers are we(e)             ('Some are big!')
Whose lives are pledged to Ireland;
Some have come                  ('where from?')
From the land beyond the wave   ('God bless them!')
Sworn to be free,
No more our ancient sireland
Shall shelter the death of all the slaves;

(I don't know what happens after this; perhaps someone should get texting on their mobile phone...) Finally, I suppose it's unnecessary to add that "wee" is the Scots, and indeed Irish-English, word for what the English, and Anglified Scots, will call "small" or "little", hence the first obbligato above.

Just to add one more Celtic Football song to this discussion, there's also a parody of Harry Lauder's "Roamin' in the Gloamin'":

"Roamin in the gloamin with a shamrock in yer hand,
Roamin in the gloamin with Saint Patrick's Fenian Band;
And when the music stops,
Fugh King Billy and John Knox,
Oh, it's great tae be a Roman Catholic!"   (or, "Kafflick")

I'll leave it to someone else to get all learned and historical and literary on our arses, and point out how part of the Fenian story (i.e. of the Fianna, Fionn MacCumhaill's warriors, not the nineteenth-century Republican organisation) deals with the way "Priest Patrick" argues with Oisin, returned from his wanderings, that the pagan Fenians are all damned. I suspect those who sing these lines with enthusiam rather than melodiousness see "St Patrick's Fenian Band" as equipped with flutes, pipes, accordeons and big drums (and banners) rather than spears and swords, though, in Glasgow, the latter are not unknown. In Paisley some years ago, in Court, the question was asked of a defendant said to have assaulted someone with a sword, "What kind of sword?", to which he replied with a shrug, "Jist an oardinurry sword" (such as any appropriately dressed Ned would wear).


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: MartinRyan
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 11:14 AM

GuestSleepless.....

Yeah - we had that first one a while back, though it hasn't reached the DT.
Click here

Regards


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 02:11 PM

Sleepless, what you refer to as a "parody" is actually the norm at Parkhead.
Simply put, Celtic fans sing these lyrics EVERY week.

But clearly such a reference to the extermination of a religious sect isn't ... er ... sectarian, nor is it bigoted ... (shurely some mistake ...).

As for the word "Fenian", this is sung as you mention, with pride by Celtic fans, and yet its use by Rangers fans is banned on pain of arrest.

So ... fans of every other club in the world can sing any lyrics that they want to "Marching through Georgia", but Rangers fans can't even sing the correct lyrics to the tune.

And the use of the word "Fenian" has been banned for Rangers fans, even though Celtic fans still revel in its use, and there is no problem with its use in .... Ireland.

Celtic fans also make references to "political" groups with terrorist links that would make any individual singing them liable to arrest and indefinite detention under British Government anti-terrorism legislation.

But ... clearly asking people why they don't go home is MUCH more offensive and dangerous.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: ard mhacha
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 04:49 PM

Anton Rogan`s brother stated that he wouldn`t go to Windsor Park to listen to the bigots castigating his brother on the N Ireland team.
Death threats to Neil Lennon were painted on the wall of the local hospital in Lennon`s home town of Lurgan.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: Effsee
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 10:10 PM

It should be noted ard mhacha, that this only happened AFTER those players became CELTIC players!


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: Seán Báite
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 05:45 AM

Jack Union,

OK, I missed the story of the LVF denying involvement in the Lennon threat. Most likely some nutter alright - with the loose change in his skull rather than his pockets.. Old Firm seems to have its fair share of them.

I never stated Anton Rogan received death threats - just he's the only other Celtic player I can remember selected for Norn Iron since I've been following football and I remember the strange sight/sound of him getting abuse from his own fans even before he touched a ball (as referred to by Ard Mhacha).
Although, as you state, there may have been a quality judgement too - as he wasn't exactly a worldbeater :->
If Martin O'Neill or Pat Jennings had ever signed for Celtic, how would they have gone down at Windsor ? - probably the same, I fear...
Unfortunately, we get idiots at the Republic home games also giving abuse to Rangers players in visiting teams.. a much smaller minority of the crowd but still idiots all the same...


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: ard mhacha
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 08:00 AM

My last visit to Windsor Park was away back in the mid 1960s, I had returned home for a holiday and decided to go to the Belfast ground to see George Best play against Scotland.
During the first half I was in the Spion Kop end and had to listen to Pat Jennings described as"a long fenian bastard", Johnny Crossan the Derry born forward was also described as a "a fenian bastard", that done me, after almost ten years away from this bigotry, I had enough, I made my way out during the half time interval, never to set my foot in this bastion of bigotry.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,Aln Bill
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 10:40 AM

Clearly, there's a bit of bitterness in NI !!!

However, dragging this back to the original topic....

You have to ask a few simple questions:

Why the very long delay in announcing this mock outrage?
Is asking a fanbase why they don't "go home" worse than that other fanbase singing a song that prays for a Rangers Catholic player to be killed in his sleep with a bullet from the iRA ??

Why are Rangers fans the only fans in the world not even allowed to sing the correct lyrics to "Marching through Georgia", and yet every other club in the world (including Portsmouth fans most recently in Europe) can sing ANY lyrics that they want to it ??

Why is it that a Rangers and Celtic fan, seperated by mere yards at a match, are treated so differently --- the Celtic fan can use the word "Fenian" as many times as he wants; the Rangers fan will be arrested for using it once.

Why is it that Rangers fans are criticised for asking misty-eyed opponents why the don't "go home", and yet Celtic fans (and others) regularly ask sing "Go home ya Huns" to rangers fans (where "hun" is accepted in Scottish legislature as a sectarian term ) ??

Why the concern at Rangers fans' songs when Celtic fans sing every week in support of a prohibited terrorist organisation, in contravention of British anti-terrorism legislation ??

Surely, to any objective viewer, it MUST all appear a bit suspicious ?
Are Rangers and Celtic fans being treated even-handedly on this ?
It would appear not.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 04:08 PM

> With regards to Jack Campin's claim about Rangers fans cheering an IRA bombing!!!
> Methinks the mists of time have clouded your friends memory.

He told me about it the week it happened. It's not the sort of thing you forget. (Rangers fans did not, in my experience, often extend their adulation of the Queen to include Thatcher. It doesn't seem the Queen did, either).

BTW there was an earlier instance of a cross-divide player getting grief for it, Mo Johnson. As I remember it, his *father* got intimidated for it, with his house being vandalized. But whether he was a Catholic playing for Rangers or a Protestant playing for Celtic I forget, nor does the answer matter to me. In any case, this kind of sectarianism is ridiculously small potatoes compared with Zionist treatment of Palestinians, American slavery or the genocide of the Roma. Get real.

It would be handy of somebody could suggest some good websites to look for current Glasgow football songs - in particular sites that reflect what actually does get sung rather than what somebody with delusions of poetic adequacy wants their side to sing.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,Aln Bill
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 09:28 AM

Re the bombing of the Grand Hotel -- it happened at 2.54 am.
The likelihood of Rangers fans celebrating such an event in a pub at a time when licensing laws precluded it is pretty unlikely I would suggest ....!!

As for Mo Johnson: he was not the first (no0r the last player ) to cross this OF divide.
Puerile "fans" of both sides hated hated the man's guts for many years.

For further information on the exciting world of Celtic and their fans' songs (and other misdeeds ..), check out the "If You Knew Their History" website:

http://ifyouknewtheirhistory.blogspot.com/

Quite illuminating.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 04:17 PM

As a complete outsider to all this, I find the On The Road lyrics quite chilling.
It looks forward to an Ireland united, not by any reconcilliations, but by the expunging of the protestant peoples from the land.
Or have misread it?


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,Aln Bill
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 04:44 PM

No -- as you imply, the lyrics and the intentions are quite clear.

It's what any reasonable person would call ... well ... genocide.

Then again, Celtic fans sing songs in praise of a proscribed terrorist organsiation that planned during World War 2 to collaborate with the Nazis to invade Northern Ireland (codename "Kathleen").

So much for a misty-eyed view of them now, eh ??

Just remember that Celtic fans have a history of racism against black Rangers players AND black Celtic players (ask Regi Blinker or Ian Wright, who described them as reptiles after they spat on him).

Celtic fans sing songs of how great Ireland is but then when somebody asks them why they don't return there, they take massive offence (delayed and quite patently mock outrage however).

Just think of what Ireland would have been like if the IRA had been successful.
btw, during WW2, the IRA set off bombs in mainland England and in Ulster -- Sean Russell the IRA Chief of Staff died whilst returning to Eire on a Nazi submarine: he was buried at sea with full military honours under a Swastika flag.

THAT is the side of the argument that you aren't getting.

THIS is why Rangers fans often appear exceptionally bitter -- they have long memories and many of these Nazi collaborators are still around ...


So ... the next time you hear about the big bad Rangers fans singing something that seems to offend the poor innocent Celtic fans, just remember that every week those same Celtic fans sing songs about ethnically cleansing Ulster for their own ends, and in support of a pro-Nazi terrorist organisation.

If you have to pick a side, make sure you are in FULL possession of the facts.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: Brakn
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 05:58 PM

Ahhh That's why the BNP members support Rangers.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,Aln Bill
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 07:14 PM

And Brakn's post there is the PERFECT example of somebody either not reading how Rangers fans sing against a fanbase linked to Nazism, or an example of somebody making up "facts" again.

To repeat: Celtic fans sing in support of the IRA, who tried to collaborate with the Nazis during the war, and who have continued that work thereafter.

Rangers fans sing a question asking people why they don't go home ?

It was Celtic fans who threw bananas onto the pitch when Mark Walters played for Rangers, and who spat at their own black players (Blinker & Wright).

Celtic fans sing songs about killing people, and about ethnic cleansing.

But try and have a gently humorous dig at them in a song ???
Outrageous !!!


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: Brakn
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 05:01 AM

Thanks GUEST for clearing that up. (Why the BNP members support Rangers.)


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,Aln Bill
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 11:05 AM

I can keep this up just as long as you can m8.

And indeed, I can raise a whole load of interesting stuff about Celtic FC and their fans.

For example, although the BNP tries to associate themselves with Rangers FC, they are chased by Rangers fans when they try to get anywhere near Ibrox itself.

However, Celtic FC and their fans actively encourage the IRA and their murderous support to become involved at Celtic Park.

For example, the banner created to celebrate the life of Jock Stein, was created by a convicted IRA terrorist.

The films (easily available on YouTube) of Celtic players and indeed board members celebrating at a strongly Republican hotel in Eire, with various sectarian ditties.

The continued denial by Celtic fans that anybody knew that the Celtic Boys Club coach was sexually abusing young boys in their premises, and the subsequent departure of that coach, then his re-involvement with the club a year or so later.

The fact that although Rangers fans are no angels, Celtic fans hold the record for most banning orders in British football (at Blackburn, in a European tie).

And yet when any complaint or comment is made about any of these issues, the "victim" card is played.

And .... as Brakn is trying to do, Celtic fans have a very bad habit of making things up.
Do you know that they complained that the red at the tops of Rangers players' socks represented Fenian blood?
And then they claimed that green pepperami had been banned at Ibrox?
And that Eggs Benedict had been banned at Ibrox?
And that the pitch at Ibrox had been cut into the shape of a ceremonial sash?

Welcome to the wonderful world of fantasy, where Celtic fans state something and keep on stating it until the rest of the world gives in and believes it.
Lies and dissimulation.

Celtic remain the Scottish club associated with racism, sectarianism, child abuse and bad fans.
They claim they're Irish.

Why don't they just go home ?


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,Guest1872
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 11:06 AM

In my humble opinion it's all a load of mince. The "sellick" fan who complained really has to look at himself in the mirror. Songs of this ilk have been chanted at games everywhere for years. What about scousers singing about the Munich air disaster when they play Man U? What about Arsenal's unsavourty anti-semitic songs directed at Spurs? What about Everton's 1970's dittie about being "all white"? The problem with celtic fans is that they are easily offended and some go out of their way to be. Yet when anybody mentions IRA songs or pro PLO banners or wishing Nacho Novo would die by an IRA sniper's bullet then they take the morale high ground. They of course aren't all like that as aren't the Rangers support but to involve a foreign diplomat in something that happened at a Scottish football ground is beyond belief. Just for the record i think the "fan" who complained was more upset at his team being humped 4 2 on their own ground to be honest.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: Brakn
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 01:25 PM

"And .... as Brakn is trying to do, Celtic fans have a very bad habit of making things up." (I couldn't give you one name of a current Celtic player)

Oh dear, don't you just jump to conclusions. I haven't made a study of it all and cannot come back to you with smart replies. There's more to life than spending your time trying to convince people who do not have open minds.

Keep your football and your religions. All I see about folk that follow football is people who have no lives. If someone offered me free tickets to see any of them for a game across the road I wouldn't bother my arse.

Never was bigotted, never was racist. As I said in a prvious post -

For me the Pope and catholicism, the Queen and Britishness, nationalism and religion are relics of a bygone age as are flags. Anyone who is racist or bigotted is not welcome in my house.

end of


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,Aln Bill
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 02:18 PM

Fair enough Brakn, but ... read my post again, I may have compared you as being alike to a Celtic fan in jumping to conclusions, but I never actually stated that I thought you were a Celtic fan !

And (believe it or not) I have as little time as you do for the Old Firm bigots and their nonsense.
However ... parity is required in such situations, otherwise we get what we've got here: an absurdly unbalanced picture of two teams and their fans, one branded as thugs and bigots, the others as misty-eyed Oirish rogues (not saying which one's which btw ....!).


Getting back to music, it's interesting how a chant is suddenly hijacked by individuals who then proceed to write a whole screed of lyrics, and try to pass them off as "the whole song".

Makes me wonder how many traditional songs have evolved in such a manner.


And it's a shame that nobody else has picked up on the matter of Rangers fans being the only fans in the world banned from singing ANY lyrics (even the original ones) to "Marching through Georgia".
Some have even been told that they would be arrested if they hummed the tune !!

A most remarkable and quite dismaying piece of selective censorship.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 06:05 PM

Just followed this 'debate' and it seams there are quite a few irked Rangers fans who think they are being 'singled out' for a wee party tune that's really not that offensive to anyone. A mere riposte to Celtic fans singing about 'their' famine song: the fields of Athenry. Oh and quite a few 'non Rangers fans' as well, although I think they do protest too loudly.

That song is a quite beautiful, sad tale of injustice and would be welcome in any folk club in the world (well maybe not in Paisley Rd West). Thelyrics

To say that the chorus 'The famines over, why don't you go home' is a justs reply to anyone who keeps going on about it just about sums up some of the unenlightened meanderings of some people who are well and truly nostalgic for the past.

They can't accept that people who used to have to take it, because they were treated as second class citizens, now have a voice and can complain and point out that there are indeed some vile peepil around who can't accept that those of Irish descent have equal rights and an equal say in Scottish society today.

There are some quite illogical posts in this debate. The post that says the whole song lyrics have been made up recently despite acknowledging that there were Youtube postings by Rangers fans of the whole song for a whole year and most recently at Manchester just beggar belief.

One of Scotlands bravest journalists has just today asked Martin Bain to make a stance against the large minority of bigots amongst the Rangers fans who continue to be a blight on his club. Just Google G Spiers Times Rangers fans and you'll see how long he has been complaining. He is the son of a Protestant minister and has no Celtic axe to grind.

You have to ask yourself why the Rangers fans can't still accept that Jock Stein as a Protestant chose to play for and manage Celtic as did many of this teams greats (Danny Mcgrain, Kenny Dalglish). Why child abuse is not the sole preserve of the Catholic church (eg Kincorra boys home and many other homes) and that to maintain this 'superior' stance smacks of the chosen race mentality that does humanity no service at all.

Why don't THEY get over it and start liking themselves instead of hating others. FFS even Ian Paisley managed it!!

They will continue to be Scotlands shame until that day comes.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 06:19 PM

Nice to know not everybody takes it seriously.


NOT THE FEILDS ATHENRY
By M.Austen 1993

By a lonely prison wall
I heard a young girl calling
Michael they are singing it again
And it just goes on and on
And I hate that blooming (bloody) song
I'm so fed-up with the fields of Athenry

ch.
Oh no not the fields of Athenry
If I hear it one more time I'm going to cry
They should ban the flaming (bloody) thing
There are far better songs to sing
I'm so fed-up with the fields of Athenry

By a lonely prison wall
I heard a young man calling
Mary why do you think that I'm in here
I hit the singer with my shillelagh
Now I'm bound for old Australie
But no more I'll hear the fields of Athenry

By a lonely harbour wall
I heard a young girl calling
To a prison ship and saying wait for me
Won't you let me come along
Before they start that blooming (bloody) song
I'm so fed up with the fields of Athenry


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: Brakn
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 06:26 PM

I'm sure that's been posted before, many years ago. It was a joke then, Please keep up!


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: Brakn
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 06:33 PM

Sorry John........ no offence intended, others were not members then. :-)


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: Brakn
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 06:36 PM

In fact I sang it once in Stockport (yes that version) and got tremendous abuse. Wouldn't care if I never heard it again!


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,Aln Bill
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 07:07 PM

Had to laugh at the "Guest" post a few ones above, where we're again fed even MORE lies about those of Irish descent only now having equal rights and a say in Scottish society -- think about it: this refers to Rangers fans of Irish descent too.
Misty-eyed bullsh**.
Unless you're trying to be sectarian about it ...


The "whole song" is a recent fabrication (just like so many of the anti-Rangers points on here): where is the evidence of four-verse songs being sung in Manchester, or anywhere else for that matter a year ago? The match and build-up was well-recorded. Where's the evidence??
The four LINES of the simple chant have been going that long.

Which makes it all the odder that it has taken until now for the apoplectic outrage to take hold.


"One of Scotlands bravest journalists ..." -- give me peace !!
Graham Speirs is NOTORIOUS for his dislike of Rangers.
The man has made it his personal mission to do everything he can to spread all sorts of spurious muck about Rangers FC, most likely because he is an avid supporter of .... can you guess it .... Celtic.

Be in possession of the FULL facts.

The further bigoted religious nonsensical ramblings about Rangers fans not accepting Jock Stein, and bringing in the Catholic Church's child abuses, is mere obfuscation.
Try sticking to the point, or I could post that:

In a football context, Celtic FC and their fans continue to be Scotland's Shame, for the simple factual reasons that they support proscribed terrorists, they covered up a child abuse scandal, they threw bananas onto the ptich at a black player, they spat onto a Catholic Rangers manager after a match in Edinburgh, they spat at their own black players in their own car park, and they can't take a bit of "banter".

Both the "Irish Independent" and Glasgow's pro-Celtic "Daily Record" have been scathing of the campaign against this chant -- they see the simple truth that music and chants that are not discriminatory must be protected, otherwise we are on the slippery slope to biased subjective censorship.


I know that this thread is starting to look a bit rancid, with some pretty dodgy opinions on it (and I apologise to Admin for my fat fingers accidentally posting blank posts every so often !!).

But please keep it going, because musically there's a MAJOR point here IMO.
Just because a small group of people start making up stuff to try to get something banned, doesn't mean that we should take what they say as gospel without knowing the real truth.

Otherwise, what piece of music will be next?
I am sure you can think of a few that would fall foul of some eejit making up their own history & "facts" to get them banned.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,Jorrox
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 05:29 AM

As ever, when the west of Scotland disease hits the headlines, one has to identify ones roots or else be wrongly labeled by the bigots.

I was born in Airdrie to a Rangers family. Proddy school (yes I know). BBs, church - the lot.

So I am NOT coming from 'the other side' when I say that Rangers fans are by far the more repellant of the two. There is good and bad on both sides and extremists on both sides. But the average, in the middle, Rangers fan always seems to be far more bitter and bigoted than his Celtic counterpart.

That's the way I see it.

I can't understand what some of you are doing in the folk world at all. Do you ever listen to the words of songs?


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,Aln Bill
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 06:50 AM

Ah, Guest Jorrox has posted one of the standard "Now I'm a Rangers fan but even I was repelled by ..." etc, etc, posts.

Just one point that blows any claim to truthfulness out of the water there -- he claims to have gone to a "Proddy school".

There is NO such thing in Scotland, and every Rangers fan knows it.
There are Faith schools (Catholic, even Muslim and Jewish), but there is NO such thing as a Protestant school.
The standard school in Scotland is non-denominational (ie: people of any faith can and do attend).

So ... a completely dishonest post there, created in a quite disgraceful attempt to colour the argument.
I could say that this is typical of the "impostor" strategy, but I don't need to -- you can see it for yourself !!

You can judge for yourselves about which fans are "more bitter and bigoted" --- look through this thread and assess which fans are the more bigoted: the ones who wave a Union Flag and sing about the Queen, or the ones who wave an Irish flag (but won't go home ...) and who sing about the IRA, and are implicated in child abuse, songs promoting ethnic cleansing, the worst cases of racism in Scottish sport, and regular bouts of outrage and lying (as Jorrox proves above).

Facts prove that Celtic fans are the more bigoted.


As for songs: that's what this thread was all about -- the words of a chant that were deemed offensive to some (although sung by the descendants of many who had also suffered).

FACTS prove that the chant existed for over a year -- the "whole song" is a fabrication.
I did wonder if other traditional (folk) songs may have been created/extended in a similar "manufactuired" method.
A genuine enough question, and one worth exploring perhaps.

And can you really not see that if such a slightly sarcastic chant is banned, then it's the start of a slippery slope ??

Take a look at the lyrics of almost any other song on this Forum -- you could find a slew of people who would take offence at almost all of them.

Make no mistake --- keep losing such songs and chants and lyrics and you can kiss goodbye to real folk music.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 06:50 AM

Terry I think it is abysmal that you should contribute nothing to this serious thread, and then jump in with your stupid claim for the 100th post. Grow up!

JM


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,Jack Union
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 09:53 AM

Good grief! I go away for a couple of days and have missed so much.

"Ahhh thats why BNP members support Rangers"

Brakn - by any debating standards that was pretty poor. None of the incidents alluded to by Aln Bill are fictitious. So, by your way of thinking, because Aln Bill presents a Unionist point of view it therefore follows that we all become labelled as BNP supporters and by definition, racists? Did you honestly mean, BNP supporter supports Rangers, therefore Rangers fans support BNP? Sorry, but you are not on chum. In the early 1980's the National Front tried to peddle their politics outside Ibrox by playing the Loyalist card. Apart from a few impressionable teenagers they made absolutely no headway into the Rangers support, who saw them for what they were and let it be known that they were not welcome.

It was inevitable the way this debate was going to go given the subject matter. If you didn't like the subject you were are liberty to give this thread a bodyswerve.

I think that "Guest" is up to a bit of mischief when giving Graham Spiers such a glowing reference in his unrelenting quest to eliminate bigoted chants from Ibrox. I wonder how his crusade against bigoted chants at Celtic Park is getting on. If anyone can find any reference to it in any of his work please let me know. Oh he might just give it a cursory mention so he can point to some piece he has written to claim he is unbiased, but again, if anyone finds a venomous insulting artical he has written which is directed towards Celtic supporters singing sectarian songs then paste a link for me. In fact cut it out and keep it as an investment as they are rarer than Penny Blacks!

Incidentally Guest, I was at Kilbowie Park in Clydebank at the first Rangers game following the death of Jock Stein. There was a minutes silence before kick-off and I can assure you that an immaculate silence was observed by the entire Rangers support. Stein, McGrain and Dalglish were not disliked by Rangers supporters because they were Protestants who played for Celtic (another myth), they were disliked by Rangers supporters because they played for Celtic. And thats it! No underlying agenda. They played for our biggest rivals. They were never singled out for special treatment. One can only wonder if Maurice Johnstone and Neil McCann, as Roman Catholics who played for Rangers, were subjected to additional booing and jeering by Celtic supporters, and in Johnstones case physical threats, simply because they played for Rangers or because they were seen as traitors in they eyes of a significant proportion of the Celtic support.

Aln Bill - you asked what Ireland would have been like had the Republican collusion with the Nazis dring WW2 been successful.

The Republican movement in Ireland took a view that - my enemy's enemy is my friend. Hitler and the Nazi war machine were happy enough to take advantage of the assistance given by the lighting of bonfires to direct German bombers to their targets and the refuelling and resupplying of U-Boats in Irish harbours. However, the Gaelic blood of most Irish is not, and never was Aryan. Not many Irish people display the blonde-haired blue-eyed looks that Hitler demanded of his pure race.

Similar to the Irish/British relationship, many Ukrainians and Cossacks saw the advancing German army as a force who would liberate them from Stalin's oppression and gave the Axis soldiers traditional gifts of salt and bread, cheered and threw flowers onto the Panzers as they rumbled towards Stalingrad. Little did they know what awaited them. Unfortunately for the Ukrainians their bloodline was more Russian than Germanic. The population was beaten, raped and murdered and hundreds of villages were systematically destroyed to keep the population at heel. Able bodied men were forced to work for the Nazis and of course a great many thousands went to the death camps.

Obviously we can only speculate as to what the fate of the Irish would have been if the Nazi's had won the war, but history tends to suggest that once the Nazis were in a place the local population didn't enjoy the presence of their guests very much. Crucially though, as I suggested earlier the Irish do not have German blood running through their veins and I suspect that may have sealed the fate of the Irish people.

It should also be noted that a significant number of Nazi war criminals were given refuge in Ireland after the war and never faced justice for their crimes against humanity, whilst the Irish citizens who took up arms for the Allies, to fight Facism, were spat on, abused in the street and unable to wear their uniforms when on leave.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: Ythanside
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 06:08 PM

I can assure GUEST Aln Bill that I went to a Prestbyterian Church of Scotland school, a 'Proddy' institution, so they DID exist.

Whether or not they still do,I neither know nor care.

IMO any form of religion serves only to divide society into an 'us & them' view of humanity, as a fair sprinkling of the preceding hundred or so posts prove.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 06:19 PM

AlnBill

You asked some posters on here for evidence about the validity of the four verses of this dire song. Here is only one example of it in all it's glory.

Celtic fans making up the four verses

They really go to some lenghts to make their case don't they!!


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,canadiangael
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 06:43 PM

ANTI – IRISH PLANTERS LIVING IN IRELAND                09/01/97

A CHAIRDE,
I am writing from North America and I consider myself a loyalist, I'm loyal to my country of Canada, I'm loyal to my wife and children, I'm loyal to my friends and co-habitants of the land I love, I'm loyal to democratic principals, I'm loyal to a civilized accepted way of living that has been adopted by reasonable people since the beginning of time. I live and share the same principal of loyalty to my family, friends, countrymen and women. You could consider my family and choice of friends as loyal human beings who love and respect life and share important values with people of different opinions than we share. As I watch the news reports from the island of Ireland covering the turbulence and troubles in the north part of the island of Ireland, I constantly witness human butchery, disregard for human life, and complete disobedience of the laws of God and Ireland. The people carrying out these acts of violence were born in Ireland, are therefore Irish, and enjoy life in one of the most beautiful countries known to man. As I watch the media coverage of Ireland and witness the dark satanic side of democracy gone wrong, I am deeply saddened when I witness adults living in Ireland constantly disregarding the laws of God and Man, and being constantly unloyal to all reasonable democratic standards. My family and I witnessed thousands of adults dressed in strange clothing, wearing English style business hats, they were cursing, using abusive language and a large portion of those people appeared to be under the influence of alcohol or drugs, especially the ones that were embracing the Royal Ulster Constabulary as they blatantly attacked other Irish people. I witnessed many vicious attacks by the R.U.C. helped by those people dressed in clothes similar to what I have witnessed in Southern Alabama when black people of this continent were treated the same way, and were butchered by a satanic force that claimed to be "Loyalist". After my disturbing experience watching the laws of God and humanity being disregarded by those people wearing strange clothes, who by the way carried the "Holy Bible" during their attacks on innocent bystanders I questioned my beliefs, I consider the brutalities carried out by those loyalist. I prayed to God for help and guidance to allow me to understand the strange behavior that I witnessed by those loyalists who constantly act unloyal to the country that they live in. I discussed the disturbing media coverage with my family, friends, people of different religious persuasion, and three ministers of religion, one Catholic, one Protestant, and the other Muslim. Each of the people I spoke to disclaimed the Irish loyalists claim of being loyal or being a loyalist. If one is loyal within ones country, one would assume a commitment to that country existed, if one was disloyal to the country of ones birth, I would assume an element of disloyalty to ones country existed within that disloyal individual. Therefore if you were born in Ireland and consider yourself to be a loyalist, one would assume that Ireland would be the country of loyalty, failing this, if one was born in Ireland and was unloyal to the country of ones birth, loyalist or loyalism is certainly not the words that comes to my mind. Anti Irish Planter or Traitor would be more politically correct and would certainly be more fitting for one who is unfaithful and disloyal to the country of ones birth. These same loyalist people recently spoke of ethnic cleansing within the north part of the island of Ireland, views that I consider no different than their offspring brothers who formed the " Ku Klux Klan" and were responsible for similar atrocities in the southern states of America. If the principle of ethnic cleansing was accepted by the majority of the people of the island of Ireland, the intended victims for removal from Ireland would certainly not affect Irish loyalists. If would assume that if one were of the opinion that an unthinkable act of ethnic cleansing was acceptable in the north part of the island of Ireland, the starting point for such an act if anywhere would begin with Anti Irish Planters and Traitors. My discussion continued with my family an my friends and I am still of the opinion that I am a loyalist to my country, my family, my friends, and humanity. The people of Ireland who wear strange clothes similar to the "Ku Klux Klan" and the Royal Ulster Constabulary who are responsible for collusion against the Irish people are certainly not loyalists but Anti Irish Planters and Traitors. These individuals must see the writing on the wall and read it, they must understand that there is a place in Ireland for them to live in peace and harmony as Irishmen and Irishwomen, the rest of the world is watching carefully the unacceptable bigotry, and racism that exists in the north part of the island of Ireland. If only you could see yourselves as the rest of the world see you, long live democracy and loyalty to the country of ones birth.

                                                                               FROM A LOYALIST
                                                                               Canadian Gael
                                                                                          TORONTO
                                                                                        CANADA


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,Jorrox
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 06:59 AM

AlnBill - Can you maybe give us an idea of what type of folk/roots music that you like?
Y'know, maybe name a few artists?
Just for the hell of it?

(You will see that I said "Proddy School (Yes I Know)". I am well aware of what makes a 'faith' school. But to suggest that my state schooling in the 60s was anything other than proddy is stretching it.

I came to realise why most people hate blue noses - you just can't see it because you are too close to it.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,Nitshill Bear
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 11:44 AM

An incoherent, inarticulate, illiterate outpouring of hatred and bile from Canadian Gael there. Well done.

For the uninitiated, the nomenclature "island of Ireland" and "north part of the island of Ireland" is typical of Irish Republicanism. Usually Northern Ireland is referred to simply as "The North" by these people. This is their way of demonstrating their lack of recognition for Northern Ireland. Don't be fooled.

As for Jorrox, I'd love to know why "most people hate blue noses".


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 11:56 AM

I have stayed out of this one due to it being an issue for those that live there. But the last comment deserves an acknowledgement.

You are right, NB. For many of us it will always be the North OF Ireland. And fairly soon, you will be calling it the same. The North will be reunited with the South, and it will be sooner rather that later. Sleep well.

Mick


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 12:43 PM

Some of you may not have noticed the date on the post from Canada gael.

JM


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: ard mhacha
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 12:51 PM

A man has been arrested in Glasgow for an attack on Neil Lennon the Celtic coach, he is due to appear in a Glasgow court to-morrow. Guest Aln-Bill your invisible man will `appear` in court to-morrow.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: ard mhacha
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 12:54 PM

Guest Aln-Bill hope you can read this, A man has been arrested over an alleged assault on Celtic coach Neil Lennon in the west end of Glasgow earlier this month.

The 46-year-old is expected to appear at Glasgow Sheriff Court on Thursday.

Police said inquiries were continuing to trace another man who is believed to have been involved.

Lennon was knocked unconscious during the attack, which happened hours after Celtic lost their SPL home match against Old Firm rivals Rangers.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,Aln Bill
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 02:05 PM

Think that you'll find that all the press are being careful to state "alleged assault", since:
Lennon isn't pressing charges
Nobody saw or heard anything
The CCTV "evidence" shows two men (one of whom looks suspiciously like Lennon himself!!) sauntering out of Ashton Lane.

WE shall see what comes of this, if anything.

Let us hope that all the police time put into this (not pressed) "assault" shows better dividends than the incident over 3 and a half years ago when a lighter was thrown from the Celtic season ticket holders' seats at Parkhead and bloodied a player's head, and was plain and square caught on CCTV.
Not ONE arrest! nor any leads were followed up !


Music that I'm into ? I help with the local annual Alnwick International Music festival, which deals with folk music from all around the world.
Although I like fiddle music (for example, Catriona McDonald from this neck of the woods), and more modern folk from Rachel Unthank and the like, I'm not a major folk groupie.
However, just to prove my genuine roots, any other Glaswegians will be able to confirm (what isn't on the net): many many years ago I used to go to downstairs in "His Nibs" off of Sauchiehall Street, to listen to ... Irish fiddle music !!).
Is that genuine enough info for you ?!


"Church of Scotland schools" were subsumed into the state in ... 1872. Anybody on here who claims to have gone to a "Church of Scotland" / Proddy school (in Britain) in living memory is factually incorrect.
And Scottish non-denominational schools are just that.

Anybody who tries to brand one as "Proddy" is either wrong or lying.


It really is remarkable the amount of factually incorrect/lying posts on here, but I DO hope that you're all keeping track of this trail of falsehoods and inaccuracies.
Isn't it strange ?

And still ... we have to ask, all those awful things that have been quoted re Celtic fans (and there is a LOT more if you want it ...!), how can a four line sarcastic chant be WORSE than them ??!!


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: ard mhacha
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 02:31 PM

Fact Aln-Bill, A man will appear in court to-morrow.
Long-winded ain`t my style.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,backtothemusic
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 03:29 PM

Aln Bill

You are strangely quiet now about the four verses, their longevity and origin.

From a more thorough trawl of youtube it looks like the shameful song's authors look like their Australian Rangers fans. Would be a bit ironic wouldn't it?

Time for some is agreat healer but for those who try to obsficate the reality of a situation it can be a tad uncomfortable.

Cant you keep it up?


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,Aln Bill
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 06:19 PM

backtothemusic, in what way am I "strangely quiet now about the four verses, their longevity and origin" ??

The four version "full song" is a recent fabrication.
There were only four LINES, for a year now.

It is only NOW that somebody has penned a "full version".
(Interesting to read another thread on here about "Traditional singers altering songs", and how lyrics are often added in large amounts to pad out tunes.)

This is plainly what has happened here.
The chant became infamous and one or two people have just created a complete "whole" song.

Origin of the song ? "From a more thorough trawl of youtube it looks like the shameful song's authors look like their Australian Rangers fans."
It's pretty likely that the fabricated "whole song" was composed by Rangers fans.
However, there is NO evidence at ALL to support ANYTHING about a "whole song" existing more than even a month ago.
Nothing.
Not a thing at all.

It is EXTREMELY unlikely that a "whole song" like this would have been doing the rounds for a long time and NOT be recorded for posterity on an older lyrics site somewhere, or indeed recorded on YouTube on an older video.
As every other football-related fans' song is.

You talk of obfuscation, but unfortunately it is yourself who would appear guilty of that.
Where's your evidence ??

And as for calling it a "shameful song", well the four line chant isn't shameful.
It has as much humour as Alan Partridge's line:
"At the end of the day, they will pay the price for being a fussy eater. If they could afford to emigrate, they could afford to eat at a modest restaurant."

Or Denis Leary's suggestions (45 seconds in) about how the Famine could have been averted:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiPOhfJzU2E

Or even the former Celtic player Charlie Nicholas himself who agreed with a fellow matchj commentator's groan about Celtic fans singing The Fields of Athenry with the comment: "Aye, and they're all eating chips singing this."

From a satirical comedian, an Irish-American Catholic comedian, and an ex-Celtic player.
Let the condemnation begin ...

Four lines seem to have hurt so much, even although they were sung by people whose ancestors also suffered.

Isn't it strange how Rangers fans must be censored for humour, and yet Celtic fans can't even be chastised for anything ?


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,Nitshill Bear
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 07:18 AM

"Big Mick" just about stops short of "tiocfaidh ar la". I have no political interest in Northern Ireland. If it were to ever become part of the Republic of Ireland as a result of due democratic process then fine. Just as long as terrorism doesn't play a part, although this is virtually impossible as convicted murderers are apparently fit to hold office in some parts.

"Sleep well". Oh, you big Internet toughie with yer brooding menace. Am a baw-hair away from pishing myself.

With laughter.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,canadiangael
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 09:06 AM

Re: Did you notice the date of my letter regarding planters in Ireland. I did not mention in my dated letter that I did see the year 1990 displayed on many of the banners that were carried by people who were hungover or under the influence of alchohol or drugs?


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,steve for francis
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 04:25 PM


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,Aln Bill
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 06:16 PM

Guest whenisasongnotasong, "All lyrics for all songs have to be composed by someone, at sometime and then sung by someone for it to become a song. You now admit it is song but it's 'fabricated'. All songs are 'made up'-that's hw they come into existence! If it has lyrics, verses and is sung it is a song"

Yes, that's what I've been saying !!!
Nobody is arguing that a song now exists, but I tell you what: not one Rangers fan (or even the few Celtic fans I know) had ever heard of any "whole song" before this week.
Even now, checking this out, the evidence is so sparse as to be quite remarkable.

But I DO accept the evidence you have posted: it certainly would appear that (Australian) posters had a "whole song" version going four months ago.
Fair enough -- I am willing to accept the truth.
It would be nice to read somebody else on this thread also doing so.

However, the simple fact remains that ... the "whole song" has NOT been sung by Rangers fans at a match.
Four lines: "The Famine's over, Why Don't you go home?"

As you say, the song IS a dirge (as most of these so-called Oirish-related can be), but are the lyrics offensive ?

"From Ireland they came
Brought us nothing but trouble and shame" -- well if that applies equally to Rangers and Celtic fasn then it's fair enough.
If it is just being applied to IRA sympathisers, then it's equally fair enough.

"Now Athenry Mike was a thief" -- well, the Fields of Athenry confirms that with "For you stole Trevelyn's corn".

"And Large John he was fully briefed" -- referring to Jock Stein's knowledge of the Celtic Boys' Club child abuse, which was verified by no less than the captain of Celtic in a court of law.

"And that wee traitor from Castlemilk
Turned his back on his own" -- referring to Celtic's McGeady who chose to play for Eire rather than Scotland, making him unpopular with almost all Scottish footie fans.

"They've all their Papists in Rome
They have U2 and Bono" -- for the life of me I can't see how this could be construed as offensive, since it is factual.

"Now they raped and fondled their kids
That's what those perverts from the darkside did
And they swept it under the carpet" -- referring again to Scottish sport's worst child abuse scandal, carried out by Cairney & Torbett, who left Celtic, the latter did two years in jail for his crimes, and then linked back up with the club through his Trophy Centre.


So -- a "whole song" (that nobody had ever heard of until now, which you have to admit IS pretty strange ), BUT only four lines sung by Rangers fans at games.

Now, you could try and suggest that the four line chant is totally representative of the "whole song", but I put it to you that's a dangerous road to go down.


As for a huge gust of fresh air ... let's ask once more, what's worse?
People whose ancestors also suffered during the Great Famine singing a sarcastic chant, or
fans singing in support of a proscribed terrorist organisation that have killed children, fans who threw bananas onto the pitch at a black Rangers player and dressed up in monkey costumes to mock him, fans who pray for a Catholic Rangers player to die in his sleep with a bullet from the IRA, fans who mocked the Rangers American captain with aeroplane gestures after the 9/11 tragedy, fans who mocked the same disaster a year later by chanting all through the minute's silence, etc, etc.


You tell me : what is worse.

And will you condemn Denis Leary for his barbed comments about how come the Irish famine happened to an island and how come they couldn't fish ??

Or ... are you really saying that there's no place for humour in music?
Because a few other posters on here would take serious issue with that.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: ard mhacha
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 04:18 AM

For the benefit of Aln-Bill the invisible man has been located to a Glasgow court.       A man has appeared in court accused of attacking the Celtic coach Neil Lennon in Glasgow's west end.

David Whitelaw, 43, appeared at Glasgow Sheriff Court charged with assault to severe injury. He made no plea or declaration and was kept in custody.

Lennon, 37, was treated for minor injuries following an incident in Glasgow's Ashton Lane on 1 September.

The incident happened hours after Lennon was in the Celtic dugout for the club's 4-2 home defeat to Rangers.

Goodbye to the bigots on this Thread.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,Aln Bill
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 06:15 AM

ard mucky, re the Lennon arrest -- the man was charged with serious assault, even although Lennon was treated for minor injuries.

Shame that the same publicity hasn't been extended to the 22-year old Celtic fan who was arrested this week for his part in the four-man assault in broad daylight in Clydebank, as 4 Celtic-topped fans attacked a single Rangers fan.

Let's treat them equally, eh? Otherwise it's bigotry ...


Guest toseeourselvesasotherseeus --- this isn't a court -- I'm njot ontrial here, the "song" is.

I acknowledged that the song was real, although I was wrong about how long it had been about (the four line chant has been sung for a year now, and the four verse song dates back to four months ago).

I don't think ANYBODY could say it wasn't a dirge -- musically it's plain awful. Lyirically, it's a mess. Then again it wouldn't be alone in that respect ...


Looking at the song in general, there's an interesting quote I could give you:
"Oddly enough, it's your parody verse that I'd call folk. I don't have a single definition: it depends on what aspect I'm considering. The Digital Tradition defines folk music as anything anyone likes enough to send in. More generally, I guess I consider folk music as music sung or played socially for an audience that shares the culture that produced the tune or song...."

That's from a completely different thread, although it refers to an Irish song, but applies to some extent to this thread.


And if you want to be offended by lyrics, tell us EXACTLY what offends you. Don't just blurt out a load of stuff in one line.

Is it the accusations of covering up child abuse and rape?
That actually happened.

Denigrating the memory of Scotland's greates ever manager?
The Captain of Celtic football club (Billy McNeil) admitted in a court of law that Jock Stein knew about the child abuse -- that's why he got rid of Torbett agfter all. The club rewarded Stein with moving him on, offering him a job as their Pools agent, and then bringing Torbett back intot he Celtic fold (even now, a former Celtic director is Torbett's financial partner).

Calling people traitors?
Not unique to Rangers fasn re McGeady -- you should ask almost any other Scottish fan what tehy think about him.


If you're going to respond to me, try to think of some sort of line of attack.


btw, there's load more I can post about Celtic fans if you really want ... from them chanting support for the IRA during WW2 to the extent that Parkhead actually was shut down for a time, or maybe we could ask about them attacking Scottish referees (on the pitch and at their homes) ?

There's loads more where that came from.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 10:49 AM

I think this thread has run it's course. It is no longer about the song mentioned it the title, it is about the age old stupidity that is sectarianism.

JM


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Subject: Things for Rangers Supporters to think about
From: GUEST,canadiangael
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 10:51 AM

During the war there was no conscription in the north part of the Island of Ireland. Where were all the planters then?
During the war rangers players were stationed in the home guard at Stirling Castle That's why they win the league during that period.
Confused rangers supporters sing "God save the Queen" the same confused Rangers supporters sing "Flower of Scotland"
Rangers supporters support a foreign monarch. Their Queen is German and her husband the Duke is Greek. Where was the Duke during the Profumo Scandal.Why was Doctor Steven Ward murdered by MI5?
If Rangers supporters believe in the concept of royalty, why do they choose to forget what happened to the the real Queen of Scotland?
Why do Rangers supporters choose to forget about the Highland clearances.
Why do Rangers supporters choose to forget about William wallace.
Why do Rangers supporters fly the Union Jack. This is not the flag of Scotland.
Why do Rangers supporters fly the "Red Hand of Ulster Flag"
Why did Rangers Football Club refuse to fly the Irish flag at Ibrox when Shamrock Rovers visited Ibrox for a european game. Rangers Football Club gave each Shamrock Rovers player a bottle of whisky to appease them. It is protocal to fly the flage of the country of the visiting team
Why do Rangers supporters continually sing songs of hate.
Why do Rangers supporters not believe in "The World Council of Churches"
Why do Rangers supporters align themselves with neo natzi groups?
I think it's time Rangers supporters looked inside and thought about these things. It's time Rangers supporters woke up and smelled the coffee and joined the rest of the democratic world. They should move forward in time and get in step with the real world. if only you knew what the free world think about you. It's time for Ranger supporters to move on and shake of all ties with organizations like the Orange Order and the Ku Klux Klan. There are many decent Rangers Supporters who are truly Scottish and are proud of their celtic roots and heritage and don't want to be anglisized.Let's attempt to move forward as a celtic nation, remember our celtic heritage and support nationalism for our celtic future.Rangers supporters should show the world that they are truly great supporters, proud to be celtic and free and extend a hand of friendship to all you celt brothers and sisters. You could say " A Nation Once Again"


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 10:57 AM

Why do people keep insisting that the Queen is German and the DoE Greek? Don't you think they've become naturalised by now? If not then heaven help anyone else hoping to become British!


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,Jack Union
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 11:02 AM

Ard mhacha

"goodbye to the bigots on this thread"

You don't say who the bigots are, and perhaps i'm being a bit presumptious here, but really, that was a cheap shot! It emphasises what Aln bill has been saying in his inimitable way, that you don't want to debate the sectarian excesses of the Celtic fans and that for him or whoever to mention it means they must be bigots. Is that what you mean?

The only truly naked sectarian remark I have seen in this whole thread was written by Guest Hail-Hail near the top who suggested it was time to get out as the "place is full of Hamilton Accies." In case you are wondering, a Hamilton Accie is rhyming slang for "Paki", an offensive and sectarian term for Asians who originate from Pakistan or even if they don't have Pakistani origins, who look like they do, many of whom may have come to this country for sanctuary and succour or even to escape famine. Does this character have no sense of irony?

The point is Ard, that to hold a Unionist political point of view and to defend that view is not sectarian or bigoted. I accept that people will choose to be offended by certain aspects of the verses of the Famine Song - indeed I find the lyrics of many songs sung at Celtic Park offensive, but much of it does refer to actual events. Perhaps the truth is that some people find the lyrics discomforting rather than offensive. But the whole point that is being made is the disparity of media coverage of this song and the songs of hate the Celtic fans sing is becoming a joke now. To infer that Unionist=bigot just because it isn't your politics is lazy debate. No one who has come to this thread to object to the Famine song has condemned any of the sectarian songs sung by Celtic fans. I ask you, would you find it acceptable for anyone to infer that since you haven't condemned these songs as well as the Famine Song, then you must then support the songs of murder and genocide? Is that reasonable or not?

In your previous submits you referred to Catholic players being booed at Windsor Park and Anton Rogan's brother's remarks about him having abuse directed at him. Well Ard, this all happens on the other side too you know. It isn't exclusively reserved for Catholics playing for Norn Iron.

For your info, Scotland played Denmark a few years ago (can't remember when) and Danish, Rangers player Brian Laudrup was subjected to incessant booing and insults of "Orange B######" etc. It wasn't because he had suddenly adorned a sash or took up the flute, it was because he played for Rangers. Neil McCann (A Roman Catholic) suffered similar abuse in Dublin playing for Scotland. Regarding Rogan, I don't suppose his brother made comments about the abuse he received from Celtic fans, and how the believed that he "shamed the hoops," as they generally didn't rate him as a player, did he?

I will happily debate this issue, but the "bigot" crap can only be reserved for Guest Hail-Hail on this particular thread.

One last point Re: Lennon. The Scottish media, when reporting this incident, generally were of the opinion that Lennon should have been able to go for a drink after an Old Firm game without finding himself in trouble and getting into a fight. I agree entirely with those sentiments. However, when Rangers captain Barry Ferguson went out for a drink after an Old Firm game, where Rangers were heavily beaten, and became involved in the infamous Battle of Bothwell Bridge Hotel with Celtic fans, the general media reaction was "What was Ferguson thinking about going out after an Old Firm game?" Actually I agree entirely with that opinion too. Does anyone else see the subtle differences in how two similar incidents were reported? Or is it just me?


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,Tam
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 11:09 AM

The queen has an English title so what's British about her?


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,Aln Bill
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 11:42 AM

If she's English then she's British.

The Scottish flag is represented in the Union Flag (see all that blue in there? That's ALL Scottish), so ... singing God save The Queen (whilst not my own personal choice due to my own politics) and waving a Union Flag is perfectly OK for any British person to do.
If they want.

Any objective viewers looking in on this ??
I realise that you must be a bit disgusted with some of the nonsense on here, but by now it must be quite clear to you that the reasoned arguments and factual basis is all coming from one side only.

Rangers fans have been branded as "bigots" and "sectarian" for singing a four line chant (and for having a four verse song foisted on them by two individuals).

Are the four lines actually bigoted ?
"The Famine's over, Why Don't You Go Home?"
Sung by one set of football fans at another set, both sets having ancestors who suffered in the Famine.

It is clearly directed at "plastic Paddies" -- defined as people who pine for Ireland, but have either never set foot on its shores, or who would run a mile if offered the opportunity to live there.

It's a bit of a stretch calling it bigoted.

Compare and contrast that with some of the other vile filth directed from Rangers' opponents: ethnic cleansing ditties, songs hoping for a Rangers player to be shot, and the oddly "not bigoted" "Go Home Ya Huns", etc.

It would appear that whilst every other football club in the world is allowed to have some lattitude in the humour used, Rangers FC are to be a special case where the fans cannot even make a mildly sarcastic suggestion.

As an objective observer, don't you find it strange how Rangers fans are treated in such a strict manner, but that other club are not ??

There have been plenty of genuine examples of previous form that the other club's fans have demonstrated, but it would appear that even bringing some of them to light again is in itself "bigoted".

Football (and most other sporting) chants will occasionally be marred by vile lyrics, and it is the duty of the requisite authorities to clamp down on them.

Just a shame that this is ALL so one-sided.


btw, yet another lie up there about Rangers supposedly having their players sited at Stirling Castle during the Second World War.
I can give you a comprehensive listing of the players and where they were, including three of them in the Royal Navy.
How many times have certain posters got to be caught out lying !!!


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 12:52 PM

James VI & I


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,a bemused Celtic fan
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 07:21 PM

Celtic fans do NOT sing about `soon there will be no protestants at all at Celtic Park,maybe the moronic elements who follow to away games do but you wont hear it at Celtic Park,in fact you will hear sweet eff all as its pretty quiet ,as for this chant highlighted recently

`ooh ah up the `ra is in fact ooh ah Samaras of course we get the morons who sing the first version but certainly not most of us


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,Aln Bill
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 05:38 AM

Celtic fans DO sing about "and soon there'll be no Protestants at all", to the tune of "Roamin' in the Gloamin'", or more often than not to the Tune of "The One Road".

It is an old trick for fans to claim that it is only "away" fans who sing abusive lyrics, but that doesn't wash in reality.
After all, the same "defence" could be applied to away Rangers fans ...
Couldn't it ?


As for claiming that "ooh ah up the ra" is "ooh ah Samaras" ... what a load of codswallop.
Recently, the chairwoman of the Celtic Trust told Five Live's Nicky Campbell that it was acceptable for Celtic fans to sing pro-IRA songs.
There's no point trying to fudge it -- perhaps YOU actually sing "ooh ah Samaras" (in which case I applaud you), but "ooh ah up the Ra" is well-documented.


btw, just to show you how two sets of fans in the one stadium are treated differently, Celtic fans used to chant to Rangers' Chris Burke ( a Catholic player) "Who's the Fenian in the blue?"
But if a Rangers fan was to repeat that same chant, he would be arrested.

Rangers fans aren't allowed to even say the word "Fenian", and are not allowed to sing anything to the tune of "Marching through Georgia".

Even-handed ? Doesn't look like it, eh ?


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,Jack Union
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 10:45 AM

Re:Guest canadiangael

With regard to your last submit. I have never read such a barrel full of drivel in all my life. Out of all that about 5% of the questions were relevent i.e flying union Flag and Red Hand etc. I mean, "World Council of Churches???" The whole post is designed to look serious but is predominantly lies. Ranger players won medals for valour during the war. How did they manage that hiding in Stirling Castle? What do the Profumo Scandal and steven Ward have to do with anything? Who has forgotten the Highlang Clearences and Wallace? Remind me what the dates were for this game against Shamrock Rovers please. Gers have only ever played Dundalk, Bohemians twice and Shelbourne from Ireland in Euro competition. Gers fans align themselves with Neo-Nazi groups do they? Examples please. Actually truthful examples please. What ties do Rangers have with KKK?

In your first submit you implied that you were a God-fearing bible reader. Next time you are looking for a passage to refer to may I suggest Exodus Ch20 V16 :- Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

If you do believe in the bible then don't gamble an eternity in the fiery pits of Hell trying to score points with unmitigated lies.


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Subject: KKK founded by Scottish Presbyterians
From: GUEST,canadiangael
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 05:04 PM

The KKK was founded by Scottish Presbyterians
KKK had been founded by secret Scottish group, Dixon had them carrying the Fiery Cross around.

            The novel was the basis for D.W. Griffith's infamous film epic "The Birth of a Nation" (1915), which depicted Klan horsemen wielding flaming crosses—a more photogenic interpretation.

            The original KKK (circa 1865-1870) never burned crosses. But "The Birth of a Nation" inspired a former Georgia preacher to start up a new KKK, which he inaugurated by burning a small, fixed wooden cross on a mountaintop.
Many different groups had emigrated to America over the years. One group - the Blacks - had been brought there against their will and after the success of the northern states during the Civil War and the freeing of the Blacks from slavery in 1865, a sinister group was established which was designed to spread fear throughout the Black population that still lived in the southern states. This was the KKK. Only WASP's could belong to it — White Anglo-Saxon Protestants. It is a common myth that the KKK targeted only the Blacks - also hated were the Jews, Catholics, liberals etc but most hatred was directed against the poor black families in the south who were very vulnerable to attack.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,canadiangael
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 10:45 PM

Free Masonry,
how embarringing to civilization. Please read the following.

Sacred Texts Freemasonry Index Previous Next

Buy this Book at Amazon.com


Duncan's Masoic Ritual and Monitor, by Malcom C. Duncan, [1866], at sacred-texts.com

p. 6p. 7
DUNCAN'S
RITUAL AND MONITOR
OF
FREEMASONRY.

ENTERED APPRENTICE, OR FIRST DEGREE
Seven Freemasons, viz., six Entered Apprentices and one Master Mason, acting under a charter or dispensation from some Grand Lodge, is the requisite number to constitute a Lodge of Masons, and to initiate a candidate to the First Degree of Masonry.
They assemble in a room well guarded from all cowans and eaves-droppers, in the second or third story (as the case may be) of some building suitably prepared and furnished for Lodge purposes, which is, by Masons, termed "the Ground Floor of King Solomon's Temple."
    Lengthy non-music copy-paste deleted. Our limit is one screen on my 32-inch monitor, and this was more like SIX screens. Click here for the rest.
    -Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,Tam
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 06:19 AM

William III & II, Edward VII & I, Elizabeth II & I, English titles first and CORRECT British titles second.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 09:06 AM

Canadiangump, you really hate those Presbyterians don't you!

I do not believe that the founders of the KKK had Rangers shirts under their robes, or that there is any link at all to the auld country from modern members.

Unless you have any evidence I think you should withdraw that slur, and then sit down and examine your motivation.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 09:10 AM

Canadian.. I only read the undeleted bit of your last post.
Are you suggesting that many or most Rangers fans are Masons?
You have really lost it mate.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,Aln Bill
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 09:32 AM

Amazing !!
Because there's no sensible response to my previous questions on musical censorship, we now get scattergun posts about the KKK, Freemasonry and British monarchs' numbering.

The KKK was formed by six AMERICAN Confederate veterans in 1865, commbining the Greek word for circle (kyklos) with the GAELIC word clan.
Are you reading that canadian"gael" ??

As for the KKK being founded by "secret Scottish group" (or indeed Scottish Presbyterians), they were founded by:
Major James R. Crowe of the fourth Alabama Volunteers, Richard R. Reed , Calvin E. Jones, John C. Lester and Frank O. McCord, editor of the Pulaski Citizen who had served in the Tennessee Infantry, and Captain John B. Kennedy.

None were Scottish. Yet another piece of made-up "misinformation".

The only tenuous connection is that most of the KKK founders were Freemasons (amongst other things) and operated "the Scottish Rite".

However, to suggest that this puts the blame for the genesis of the KKK onto the shoulders of Scotland is as absurd as claiming that the sins of any particular Roman Catholic should be blamed upon Rome.

See the distinction? Not Scottish. Not Roman.


It's clearly a sign of defeat from those who thought they could censor a few fans singing a sarcastic chant with the usual lies.

I DO hope that any of you objective readers looking in continue to notice the ludicrous attempts to which some people will go to, to try and retain their own rights to sing songs celebrating the deaths of Allied soldiers and civilians, but display massive mock outrage at other people whose own ancestors suffered in the Famine, wryly suggesting that they could always "go home" if they don't like it where they currently are ...


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,Jack Union
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 07:01 AM

Censorsarewee

Whilst it would be a falsehood to try and portray Rangers fans as saints on European trips, for you to imply that the behaviour of Celtic supporters is markedly different is misleading at the very least.

To address the three locations you refer to:-

I wasn't in Pamplona, but have first hand accounts from people I know who were there and it seems the trouble was mostly perpetrated by over-zealous riot police, during the match itself. Rangers complained to UEFA about the policing of the match.

In Barcelona, the number of Rangers fans arrested was precisly - none! Of course there was the usual drunken lairy behaviour, and without condoning such behaviour, it is no different certainly to the antics of the beloved Tartan Army, and presumably those jolly craicsters who sanctimoniously preach about how well their own fans allegedly behave. Contrast this with Spanish media reports of 60 - yes sixty Celtic fans arrested in Barcelona last season including the individual who approached some people drinking outside a bar and smashed a bottle over an innocent blokes head. I bet that the unfortunate victim just laughed and laughed at such amusing banter from the Celtic fans. I didn't see any reports of such trouble in Scottish papers and can only wonder why there was no moral outrage from the impartial press.

I was in Manchester with approx 200,000 other Gers fans and had an excellent time in a city which was completely unprepared for such a tidal wave of people. 42 Rangers fans were arrested, I saw none of the trouble personally but having seen a lot of the video evidence of trouble on youtube I unreservedly condemn the vandalism and violent behaviour. There is no excuse for the rampage by about 250 people regardless of the provocation of Greater Manchester's finest, who come out of the whole sorry affair with very little credit either. However the miniscule percentage of people who cause trouble is going to exist in any group that size.

Yes, Rangers fans have caused trouble at home and abroad. But don't be so blinkered as to think that Celtic fans don't. As mentioned above Barcelona wasn't exactly a high point for them. Anyone else remember a battle with the riot police in Vigo? Or a riot in the Bigg Market in Newcastle? What about the pitch invasion and subsequent battle in Middlesbrough at a testimonial? Birmingham City anyone? Hamburg fans stabbed at Celtic Park? Rapid Vienna? Truth is chum, there are as many violent tubes follow Celtic as there is at Rangers but they seem to be protected by that vile sub-species known as the "Sports-Reporter." Take off your green-tinted specs.

Back to the song though. I see Celtic Chairman Dr John Reid has, according to todays newspapers, deemed the the Famine Song to be "Racist and deeply offensive" - The Scottish Sun 29/9/08 page 13. Obviously that is Dr Reid's personal opinion, to which he is perfectly entitled. Remarkably though, Dr Reid has remained completely opinionless about the jovial Celtic supporters' renditions of numerous terrorist related and death threat laden songs at Motherwell last weekend. Funny that, because no one who watched the game on TV or listened on the radio could have missed it, far less anyone who attended the match.

To all Celtic fans out there I ask, if you truly think that we are so evil and sectarian, then find yourseves a full length mirror and have a damn good look at yourselves too. If you can, in all honesty, say you have never sung any songs that anyone could find offensive then, I doff my cap to you. If we are evil and sectarian then we have only one equal in football! The day Celtic fans can take the moral high ground over anyone, I will chuck it altogether.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 07:51 AM

Any censorship is done by the forum moderators.
The likes of you, me and Aln have no say in it.
    And I've had to do quite a bit of it in this thread. For example, some posters feel they are exempt from the requirement to use one consistent name. Most of their posts have been deleted, no matter what the content of their posts. Others were deleted because of overly combative conduct. If this keeps up, I'll just close the damn thread.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,Aln Bill
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 08:55 AM

I've always admitted that a "whole song" existed, but was unsure as to how long it had existed for -- I believed it to be a "recent fabrication" (and was unsure as to who had created this dirge), and I am the only person on this thread who has admitted that I was wrong in any respect, by taking evidebnce at face value that the "whole song" has been about for the period of four months.


I repeat again: how are four lines sung by the ancestors of Famine sufferers themselves, in any way worse than Celtic fans singing about murderous terrorists, singing about ethnic cleansing, and hoping for a man to be shot in his sleep ?

Celtic fans have previous for the worst racist incident in Scottish football, have attacked players (including their own current manager when he played for Aberdeen), referees and managers, have smashed the windows of match officials' homes after they lost a game, have set private detectives upon match officials in a vain hope of finding some vast "conspiracy" against them, etc, etc.

Celtic fans remain the ones with the most banning orders for their fans in Britain. They view themselves as "Bhoys" but the figures prove them to be worse than the fans of any other British club.

Three and a half years ago a player was hit and his head bloodied by a lighter thrown from the season ticket holders' area of Celtic Park. Although CCTV coverage is legally required for all such stadiums, no arrest or charge has ever been made. Nobody who saw the incident had the decency to name names.

Since then there have been a plethora of incidents, including Celtic fans running onto pitches wearing t-shirts to get OTHER clubs in trouble, and mobile phones being thrown at players.

During this time, they continue to sing their entire catalogue, which in general is the usual fans' stuff that they all sing, but which also contains deeply offensive lyrics including "F*ck the Queen" (which is sectarian, since the Queen is the head of a church), "Soon there'll be no Protestanbts at all" (which is by nature sectarian), and "I hope you die in your sleep, Nacho Novo, with a bullet from the IRA".

But of course, asking people why they don't "go home" seems to be FAR worse than that.

And as for the suggestion that I can get things censored .... more fantasy I'm afraid.
But then again, the objective reader must be coming to expect that kind of thing from some Celtic fans on here by now.

It's quite sad, because the subject is important: just like with a previous song, if Rangers fans were to be banned from singing this chant, would they then be banned from singing any lyrics to "Sloop John B" at all ??


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,Jack Union
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 01:59 PM

Joe Offer

Personally, I would close the thread. The subject has been done to death now, and I am getting bored by the half-truths and downright lies by certain contributors.

Nothing has changed my mind though. The song was/is a wind-up. No one who objected to the Famine Song has come on and condemned the songs of death threats and terrorism sung by the people who are allegedly offended by the song, and that for me sums it all up.

Clearly, we are never going to get any knd of consensus on the subject, but it was always going to become a bit of a battleground.

Thanks for carrying the thread to allow the debate, but whether you close it or not, I've had my say and am finished contributing to this thread.
cheers J.U.


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Subject: RE: the Rangers 'Famine Song'
From: GUEST,Aln Bill
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 02:16 PM

Joe Offer,

I'd tend to agree with Guest Jack Union on those grounds --- the amount of lies and untruths which have been posted and systematically exposed speaks volumes for the lack of calibre and class of those who are anti-Rangers.

This thread has probably run its course, and I think it's clear that the point has been successfully carried that the four-line chant isn't any more offensive than any other football song.
The four verse "full version" is full of allusions, all of which can be verified as true by a simple Google check.

And as Jack Union mentions --- NO apologies or condemnations of those who sing songs supporting IRA child murderers.

You couldn't get a clearer line drawn between the two sides.

I'm willing to defend the Rangers fans' viewpoint for so long as it takes, but it IS getting tedious fielding and exposing the lies and general bs being trundled out by the other side in this.
    Yeah, I think that's enough. People are just posting crap here now. Thread closed. Future discussion on this topic will be deleted.
    -Joe Offer-


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