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Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England

Mr Happy 18 Sep 08 - 09:36 AM
SINSULL 18 Sep 08 - 09:37 AM
masato sakurai 18 Sep 08 - 10:10 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 19 Sep 08 - 04:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Sep 08 - 04:51 AM
Jim Dixon 21 Jun 13 - 08:11 PM
Jim McLean 22 Jun 13 - 02:57 AM
MGM·Lion 22 Jun 13 - 03:30 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 22 Jun 13 - 03:33 AM
GUEST,mayomick 22 Jun 13 - 07:39 AM
MGM·Lion 22 Jun 13 - 09:21 AM
Jim McLean 22 Jun 13 - 10:52 AM
GUEST,Grishka 22 Jun 13 - 04:38 PM
Bert 22 Jun 13 - 05:08 PM
GUEST,Allan Conn 22 Jun 13 - 08:07 PM
Tattie Bogle 23 Jun 13 - 03:43 AM
GUEST 23 Jun 13 - 06:25 AM
GUEST,mayomick 23 Jun 13 - 06:28 AM
GUEST,bert 23 Jun 13 - 06:32 AM
MGM·Lion 23 Jun 13 - 06:35 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 23 Jun 13 - 06:50 PM
GUEST,Allan Conn 23 Jun 13 - 06:57 PM
GUEST,Allan Conn 23 Jun 13 - 06:59 PM
Joe_F 23 Jun 13 - 08:24 PM
GUEST,Allan Conn 24 Jun 13 - 03:05 AM
MGM·Lion 24 Jun 13 - 03:50 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 24 Jun 13 - 05:23 AM
GUEST,Grishka 24 Jun 13 - 05:49 AM
Jim McLean 24 Jun 13 - 06:22 AM
Jim McLean 24 Jun 13 - 08:13 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 24 Jun 13 - 09:10 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 24 Jun 13 - 09:18 AM
Jim McLean 24 Jun 13 - 09:34 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 24 Jun 13 - 10:53 AM
GUEST,Ellen Vanin 24 Jun 13 - 11:10 AM
Jim McLean 24 Jun 13 - 11:41 AM
Jim Dixon 24 Jun 13 - 11:52 AM
GUEST,Grishka 24 Jun 13 - 12:31 PM
GUEST,Allan Conn 24 Jun 13 - 12:42 PM
GUEST,Allan Conn 24 Jun 13 - 12:50 PM
GUEST,Allan Conn 24 Jun 13 - 12:57 PM
GUEST,Ellen Vanin 24 Jun 13 - 01:32 PM
MartinRyan 24 Jun 13 - 01:45 PM
Jim McLean 24 Jun 13 - 02:50 PM
MGM·Lion 24 Jun 13 - 03:03 PM
GUEST,Ellen Vanin 24 Jun 13 - 03:49 PM
GUEST,Allan Conn 24 Jun 13 - 04:27 PM
GUEST,Allan Conn 24 Jun 13 - 04:35 PM
MGM·Lion 24 Jun 13 - 04:57 PM
Jim McLean 24 Jun 13 - 05:01 PM
MGM·Lion 24 Jun 13 - 05:12 PM
GUEST,Allan Conn 24 Jun 13 - 05:16 PM
GUEST 28 Mar 16 - 03:38 PM
Joe Offer 28 Mar 16 - 03:59 PM
GUEST,Blandiver (Astray) 28 Mar 16 - 04:06 PM
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Subject: Lyr Add: THERE'LL ALWAYS BE AN ENGLAND
From: Mr Happy
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 09:36 AM

^^THERE'LL ALWAYS BE AN ENGLAND
[Ross Parker & Harry Parr Davies, 1940]
As recorded by Vera Lynn

I give you a toast, ladies and gentlemen.
I give you a toast, ladies and gentlemen.
May this fair dear land we love so well
In dignity and freedom dwell.
Though worlds may change and go awry,
While there is still one voice to cry--

There'll always be an England
While there's a country lane,
Wherever there's a cottage small
Beside a field of grain.

There'll always be an England
While there's a busy street,
Wherever there's a turning wheel,
A million marching feet.

Red, white and blue; what does it mean to you?
Surely you're proud; shout it aloud:
"Britons, awake!"
The Empire too, we can depend on you.
Freedom remains; these are the chains
Nothing can break.

There'll always be an England,
And England shall be free
If England means as much to you
As England means to me.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Dxn73vXEW7w


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll always be an England
From: SINSULL
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 09:37 AM

Sad but true, this always brings to mind Hyacinth Bucket (it's Bouquet!) catawailing.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll always be an England
From: masato sakurai
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 10:10 AM

See also There'll Always Be An England - Deanna Durbin.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll always be an England
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 04:13 AM

As Michael Flanders once sagely pointed out

"There'll always be an England.......There will always be a North Pole as well!"

He said it in the mid 1950's, so could not have known that there might not be a North Pole much longer!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll always be an England
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 04:51 AM

Ice free, it will still be the North Pole.
When UK is regionalised however, England will be no more.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 21 Jun 13 - 08:11 PM

You can see the sheet music for THERE'LL ALWAYS BE AN ENGLAND at the National Library of Australia.

I wonder how the people of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland felt about this song?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: Jim McLean
Date: 22 Jun 13 - 02:57 AM

As a Scot, I like the idea that people can sing, praising their nation. The problem with this song is that it equates England with Britain and the Red, White and Blue, the Union flag.Is this arrogance or just ignorance?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Jun 13 - 03:30 AM

I think it more that "England" just flows better prosodically than would "Great Britain" or "UK". I mean, would you really have it as "There'll always be a United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"?!

"England" here maybe more a bit of poetic licence; or perhaps a bit of synecdoche ~ the part for the whole. And it does apostrophise "Britons" as a whole at one point; + the not quite still existent in the same form "Empire".

As one well old enough to remember when the song was new and constantly in our ears on the wireless, I will just say that it sounded right at the time.

~M~


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 22 Jun 13 - 03:33 AM

".Is this arrogance or just ignorance?"

If we give the composers the benefit of the doubt maybe it's neither arrogance nor ignorance. The verses are invoking a sense of England whilst the bridge calls for 'Britons' to awake and be prepared. It can be read that way anyway. I expect that the Scots of that period would have called for the British in general to defend their bit of turf too. After all to think of another song if there were blue birds over the cliffs of Dover - then there would also be puffins on Staffa.

Talking of real ignorance though whilst typing this I was watching News 24 and the presenter was talking to the BBC guy in Brisbane prior to the Lions match. The presenter suggested there was always added spice when 'England' is playing the Australians. He then realised what he said just as the guy in Brisbane pointed out that the Welsh are actually the country with the most representation in the Lions line-up. Heavens it is not even a team from the UK never mind a team from England. So he mistakenly equated a team from the British Isles with England and even when he realised his mistake he still seemed intent on going on about this fierce rivavlry with the Aussies. Well sorry but as a Scot I don't think we have a particular fierce rivalry with the Aussies. That is much more of an English thing!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: GUEST,mayomick
Date: 22 Jun 13 - 07:39 AM

The British do the fighting , the English win the war . I suppose most people from outside Britain would expect the Scots, Welsh and other soldiers to feel resentful about this , but that's rarely the case - most of them are usually quietly proud . I remember a Scots friend once telling me with a twinkle how some battle (Arnheim?)or other in the second world war had in fact been fought by a Scots regiment and not by the stiff-upper-lip English brigades portrayed in the film we'd been watching about it.

This was a dreadful song it must be said . I admire MgM's honesty for having admitted to ever liking it. lol   How did you win so many wars with songs like that? The Irish have much better war songs , but always end up on the losing side! .


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Jun 13 - 09:21 AM

You had to be there, mayomick. You ever go to school & come home again because a landmine had landed on it in the night? Happened to me in 1940 ~~ Garden Suburb School, London NW11. The King & Queen came to look at the damage that afternoon. Have a look at the WWii Songs thread. Songs like that helped.
I once mentioned to my late first wife, who came from the Forest of Dean, that I remembered having learnt about something she had just mentioned in an air raid shelter.
"Oh, yes," she said. "You will have had those silly practices too."
"What practices?" I said. "We had air raids."

~M~


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: Jim McLean
Date: 22 Jun 13 - 10:52 AM

I don't think it's a question that "England" flows better than "UK or Great Britain" , it is just incorrect. I may think that Jim McLean flows better than MtheGM but to name you thus would be wrong .. or not?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 22 Jun 13 - 04:38 PM

War songs are war songs. This one is primarily about England (colours red and white, not blue), but in one verse the view is widened, first to the Union, then to the Empire, chained together by freedom.

There are other songs about peace and fair partnership.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: Bert
Date: 22 Jun 13 - 05:08 PM

It is ignorance and as MtheGm says, poetic license.

One has a tendency to associate with the place where you were born, BUT, we don't only belong to where we were born.

I was BORN in the East End of London, a culturally secluded spot in England, but I have Irish Great Grandparents. Also during the war we were evacuated to Wales so we had Welsh surrogate parents for a year and a half.

When I served my boilermakers apprenticeship I worked for a Scot for five years. A wonderful mentor and a good friend.

So I think of myself as English, but really I am Irish and Welsh and Scottish as well.

So don't feel too badly if people say English when they really mean British, I am sure that the Welsh, Irish and Scots use their own countries to define themselves when maybe their lives and cultures are mixed.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 22 Jun 13 - 08:07 PM

I can't see really how working for a Scot makes you a Scot? I worked for a woman for several years but I'm certainly not female. I suggested a way the song could be read which gives the lyricist the benefit of the doubt. Who knows what the lyricist actually meant? I know my fellow Scots though and it does irritate most of them a bit if people conflate England with Britain. Most Scots see themselves as Scottish and British too - but very few would use the word Scotland when what they mean is Britain. It is just plain sloppy and incorrect to say England if Britain is meant.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 23 Jun 13 - 03:43 AM

The biggest offenders are some of our overseas visitors. I remember the reaction up here in Edinburgh when a visiting artist from the USA said on stage how great it was to be in England!
However, the Scots get their own back by referring to places south of the Border as "Englandshire", rather than say Yorkshire, Devon, London or wherever they mean.

When I lived in England, I sang in a village singing group, and we had songs such as the above in our St George's Day concert. I didn't have a problem singing them. After 28 years back in Scotland "I will sing (brag) of my native land wherever I may go" (Matt McGinn).


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 13 - 06:25 AM

I had a German girlfriend once who assured me that I was guilty of promoting some sort of narrow-minded Scots nationalism when I insisted to her that that Scotland was not part of England .

MGM That was praxis , I suppose !

I would have preferred a rather more stirring song on my lips as the doodle bugs came raining down, but I know there was a pretty limited range at the time. "There'll always be an England" seems to me more a WW1 song in sentiment than a WW11 one - Empire equated with freedom . The English - innocent people bombed by the higher technology of the Lufwaffe - had joined the rest of the world by the time Bluebirds over the White Cliffs of Dover became their anthem "tomorrow when the world is free" A great song .


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: GUEST,mayomick
Date: 23 Jun 13 - 06:28 AM

the last one was from me .


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: GUEST,bert
Date: 23 Jun 13 - 06:32 AM

Well Allan, you must be a really strange person if you work with someone for years and some of them doesn't rub off onto you.

Anyway, I'm American now, so there!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Jun 13 - 06:35 AM

Yes, I worked out that it was you, mayomick. But thanks just the same.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 23 Jun 13 - 06:50 PM

"Well Allan, you must be a really strange person if you work with someone for years and some of them doesn't rub off onto you."

Working with one Scottish person for five years certainly gives an insight into what that one Scottish person is like; it could at a massive stretch I suppose be argued that it gives you an insight into what Scots in general are like; it certainly doesn't make you Scottish or part Scottish though.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 23 Jun 13 - 06:57 PM

"I didn't have a problem singing them."

Quite agree why should we have a problem with singing English songs. Here in the Borders you tend to hear quite a few, especially from the north-east.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 23 Jun 13 - 06:59 PM

"I had a German girlfriend once who assured me that I was guilty of promoting some sort of narrow-minded Scots nationalism when I insisted to her that that Scotland was not part of England"

Strange one isn't it? Almost as if pointing out that an apple isn't an orange proves you have something against apples :-)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: Joe_F
Date: 23 Jun 13 - 08:24 PM

"Well, that's not saying much. There'll always be a North Pole, too." -- Michael Flanders

"*England, English(man)*. The incorrect use of these words as equivalents of _Great Britain_ or _The United Kingdom_, _British_, _Briton_, is often resented by other nationals of the U.K.,.... Their susceptibilities are natural, but are not necessarily always to be deferred to.... [It] must be remembered that no Englishman, or perhaps no Scotsman even, calls himself a Briton without a sneaking sense of the ludicrous, or hears himself referred to as a BRITISHER without squirming [Fowler & Gowers escaped the need to mention "Brit"]. How can an Englishman utter the words _Great Britain_ with the glow of emotion that for him goes with _England_?... It is unreasonable to ask forty millions of people to refrain from the use of the only names that are in tune with patriotic emotion, or to make them stop and think whether they mean their country in a narrower or wider sense every time they name it." -- _Modern English Usage_


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 03:05 AM

"Their susceptibilities are natural, but are not necessarily always to be deferred to."

Firstly it is clearly incorrect to call the UK by the name England. Why excuse incorrect usage of terms rather than defer to the correct usage? For instance would all Americans be happy to be called Californians just because California is the most populous state? Secondly if you know that using this incorrect usage is likely to irritate or even offend then the usage of the incorrect term moves from the ignorant to the arrogant. Would a Texan be happy if I said "I don't care if you don't like being called a Californian it's what I'm calling you so you'll just have to accept it"?

If an American came into a local pub here and called the punters Englishmen then they are likely to be laughed at and maybe gently teased for their ignorance. If however they went in arrogantly announcing that no matter how the locals define themselves (ie as Scottish or British or Scottiah and British) they are in the visitors eyes English then the reaction is likely to be a tad hostile.

Isn't it easier and more polite and respectful just to use the proper terms? Say Scotland when Scotland is meant; England when England is meant; and Britain when etc etc etc


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 03:50 AM

Yes, yes, Allan; amen to every word you say. For NOW!

But we are talking here about a song dating from 73 years ago, when usages, conventions ~ yes, & concepts of manners & politeness regarding this matter ~ were different.

These threads are full of pleas to have a bit of historical sense and realise that people in the past didn't always think precisely as they do now ~~ perpetual agonisings over the use of the word "nigger" come particularly to mind as a pertinacious instance.

Why stick your head above the parapet to provoke another such ultimately sterile dispute?

~M~


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 05:23 AM

Earlier I pointed out that I had no problem with ths song mentioned. In fact as I said you can read the lyrics in a way that doesn't even suggest that England and Britain are being conflated. The verses can invoke a sense of England whilst the bridge asks for all Britons to be prepared to fight. See no problem or issue with that at all.

I'd dispute the idea though that in past times Scots etc would have been quite happy to have the ideas of England and Britain conflated. I think that has always been a irritation certainly for Scots. Just that maybe the English themselves are generally more aware of it nowadays than they used to be and are more aware than they maybe were in the past. Mass media and easier communication helps people be better attuned to others.

I'm no spring chicken myself now being in my 50s and can always rememeber as a child the older generation being just as irked as people are now - even before the advent of modern nationalism. In fact it has nothing to do with nationalism as the most pro-unionist Scots is just as likely to be irked if called English.

Further back there is plenty literary evidence of Scots moaning about it. For a while after the union there was an attempt by the Scottish elite to have Scots almost redefined as North Britons but never to be called English. One of more famous examples of a grump being in a letter sent to a Mrs Dunlop by Burns in 1790

"Nothing can reconcile me to the common terms 'English Ambassador, English Court etc' and I am out of patience to see that equivocal character, Hastings, mpeached by the 'Commons of England'..... etc etc etc"


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 05:49 AM

In the song lyrics I search in vain for any hint of identifying England with the UK. When the colours of the Union are mentioned, the word "Britons" is used - is that inadequate in any sense? The message to those other Britons, and other subjects of the Empire, is that they should unite to defend England, which was primarily under attack in 1940.

War propaganda songs should not be sung when the war is over, since their purpose is to suppress internal criticism, hopefully temporarily.

As for misnamed countries: Hellas is named Greece because of the tiny tribe of Graikoi. Germany in French is Allemagne, again derived from a small group. In fact the English word Germany is not much better, since there are other countries in which Germanic languages are spoken, and a large proportion of the ancestors of present-day Germans spoke non-Germanic languages such as Celtic, Slav, and Latin.

Conflicts about names are usually symbols for real conflicts. Solve them simultaneously.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: Jim McLean
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 06:22 AM

Calling England Britain and vice versa arose after the formation of the United Kingdom in 1707 when it was seen in England as an incorporating union, that Scotland had been taken over by England. Even Thomas Paine consistently referred to the "English" Parliament which of course had ceased to exist. In Victorian times, Disraeli's "One Nation" was England (this famous speech, referred to by Milliband recently can be read on line).
The approach is subtler now as the term "Anglo" is used ambiguously. We have the Anglo Irish agreement between the UK and Ireland but an Anglo Irish rugby match is between England and Ireland.
The Chambers dictionary is very clear in defining Anglo as unequivocally English.
No wonder foreigners are confused today and sometimes call the UK England when the UK government uses Anglo to describe themselves or, rather, their foreign agreements .. Anglo French, Anglo America etc.
Listening to the Westminster Parliament live, I don' know how many times an MP will refer to " ... the north east/west of this country" and they don't mean Scotland!
I don't think there is any malice in this, it's just foolish or maybe a wee bit arrogant in assuming we know they are talking about England, not Britain. Even Shakespeare had John of Gaunt referring to England as an island and that was before the Union!
As has been said before, this is not really a "nationalist" irritant but a question of correctness or even politeness.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: Jim McLean
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 08:13 AM

Oops, the sentence beginning "Listening to the Westminster ........" should read " and they don't mean Britain".
Sorry!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 09:10 AM

Grishka I know what you're meaning about places having different names etc. The equivilent here though would be is Scotland called Scotland, or Alba or Ecosse etc. What we are talking about is something else entirely. Not about different official or sommonly held names but about the incorrect use of the term England to cover all of GB or the UK. It is not an alternative name rather it is simply wrong. I can take a 4 mile walk or so and I come to an internal UK border. On the other side is England or Angleterre or whatever one wants to call it but it is a distinct and different part to the UK from where I live. The English are English and/or British. The Scots are Scottish and/or British. But English and Scottish are two different things. I find it really strange why people would seemingly have such difficulty with this simple fact.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 09:18 AM

"Calling England Britain and vice versa arose after the formation of the United Kingdom in 1707"

I think the most common example of incorrect usage is the much used title "Queen of England" by both foreigners and some English people. William of Orange was the last King of England and Queen Anne stopped being Queen of England in 1707 when the English kingdom, along with the Scottish kingdom, ceased to exist and a new kingdom called Great Britain was created. No-one since has been crowned King or Queen of England or had that as their official title yet it still continues to be used.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: Jim McLean
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 09:34 AM

Interestingly, when I went to school in Scotland I was told William of Orange was William the third whereas he was William the second of Scotland as there were actually three separate kingdoms then, Scotland England and Ireland. Our Scottish history teachers were actually teaching us from an English perspective. Similarly William the fourth, Edward the seventh (and eight) and of course Elizabeth the second are all English reginal numbers. Who said we were all British?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 10:53 AM

Yes you are right the numbering was different until 1707 when GB was created as a kingdom. Hence we also Had James VI of Scotland as James I of England and Ireland etc. After that the English numberings have been used when there's been a choice. There was a big to do in the 50s when our present monarch was crowned Elizabeth II rather than Elizabeth I. The case was taken to Court in Scotland where the defense used was Parliamentary Sovereignty. That was thrown out in the Scottish Court where it was ruled that Parliamentary Sovereignty was an English concept which did not automatically take precedence in Scotland. However the judge ruled that the numbering was a personal choice which can be made by the Palace as they wish. The Palace has stated that the numbering will always be the highest available - hence as England has had one Queen Elizabeth then the present monarch would be Elizabeth II. Seems fair though in truth you can be pretty sure that the new baby if a boy will not have a traditional Scottish Royal name. It'll either be neutral or have a traditional English Royal name as has happened every other time. can you imagine the uproar in England if they were asked to accept a James VIII, Alexander IV or Robert III?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: GUEST,Ellen Vanin
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 11:10 AM

Actually I don't think anyone in England would give a toss if the forthcoming sprog is named James, Alexander or Robert. Why would we?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: Jim McLean
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 11:41 AM

Does one realise that the Duchess of Cambridge's bump is our future head of state? Do we live in a democracy or what?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 11:52 AM

A long time ago, I read The Offshore Islanders by Paul Johnson, and I must say the opening chapters, the part about ancient history up to the Norman invasion, were very confusing to me at first. He would say things like: the English did this and the British did that, without really defining his terms, and it wasn't even clear to me at first that he was drawing a distinction between two groups. Finally I figured out he was using "English" to mean "Anglo-Saxons" and "British" to mean "Celts." This seems to be a rather idiosyncratic usage. Am I right?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 12:31 PM

Allan (24 Jun 13 - 09:10 AM), my point is simply that many names that were "wrong" eventually became "right" by constant use, and the thus named no longer complaining.

If there were no real problems between Scots and English, they may find that their country should not be named by an acronym, but a single word ending "-land", e.g. England (like Deutschland). Or they may agree on "Britain" - not "correct" either, as Jim points out.

Groups who are fussy about their names usually have other problems, too, which are likely to remain unsolved even if the name they choose themselves is universally used. Often the newly found name, e.g. the bombastic "Aborigine", is not found good enough after a while.

War songs present more severe problems which should not be forgotten.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 12:42 PM

Depends what is meant. Gets complicated as terms used in the 1st millenium differ from their modern usage. If we are speaking second half of the first millenium then the term "Britons" does represent the various kingdoms which were still controlled by the P-Celtic peoples. So you have the obvious Wales and Cornwall as well as the likes of Cumbria and Strathclyde etc. The Strathclyde kingdom centred on Dumbarton (literally fort of the Britons) on the Clyde lasted until the end of the millenium. The Britons in the north who'd remained outside the Roman shpere had by then developed into the Picts another distinct group. As countries England and Scotland didn't develop until nearer the end of the millenium but the terms were older. I think Bede in the 8thC was the earliest source we have for anyone talking about an English people. By that he is meaning the Anglo-Saxon populations of the various kingdoms. In his chapter "Nations and Languages of Britain" he writes

"At present Britain has four nations and five languages. The four nations are the English, the British, the Scots and the Picts"

However he is also not using British or Scots in the sense we do nowadays. British here refers purely to the P-Celtic tribes (Picts aside)whilst Scots refers only to the Gaelic Q-Celtic speaking Dalriadans who were confined largely to the western seaboard north of the Clyde and some of the Hebrides.

So it can be confusing I've seen some historians use alternative terms to avoid confusion with modern terms. So Anglo-Saxons or Anglians for the English peoples; Scotti or Dalriadans for the Scots; Cymric for the Britons. Just as examples.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 12:50 PM

"should not be named by an acronym, but a single word ending "-land", e.g. England (like Deutschland). Or they may agree on "Britain" - not "correct" either, as Jim points out."

British is the correct and accepted term for the peoples of Great Britain in general. Why should Scots be expected to accept being called English when the correct, offical and long standing term British is already in general use - just because some foreigners can't get it right? It doesn't make any kind of sense! Just because the modern definition of the word British differs from what it was 1400 years ago it doesn't make it incorrect!

There is no adjective for people from the UK as a whole other than British but that is a different matter. Don't suppose it matters as unionists in Northern Ireland like the term British and Republicans would hate it whatever the adjective was!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 12:57 PM

"I don't think anyone in England would give a toss if the forthcoming sprog is named James, Alexander or Robert. Why would we?"

we'll have to agree to differ there. Something that'll never come up anyway as I suspect there is no way that the baby would be called Alexander or Robert etc. Much more likely to at some point have a Henry IX than a James VIII. History since 1707 suggests that! Now how about Macbeth II? That's be a good one. Or Lulach II :-)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: GUEST,Ellen Vanin
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 01:32 PM

Do you really think the English would be up in arms if the child had a Scottish name? Where is your evidence? I'm English, I live in England and I don't know anyone who would care.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: MartinRyan
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 01:45 PM

From way back there...

I remember a Scots friend once telling me with a twinkle how some battle (Arnheim?)or other in the second world war had in fact been fought by a Scots regiment and not by the stiff-upper-lip English brigades portrayed in the film we'd been watching about it.

I think the overland bit of Operation Market Garden was led by the Irish Guards. I remember suggesting , during a between tunes chat, that, really, they were only out looking for a session and the strange looking device strapped to the back of the tank was a bazouki - not a bazooka. Perfectly understandable confusion of orders.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: Jim McLean
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 02:50 PM

Ellen Vanin, as a Scot and republican I totally agree and don't care what parents call their offspring. However the choice will never be ours and possibly, in this case, it will not be the choice of the Duke and the Duchess of Cambridge. I read somewhere it was Churchill who insisted on Elizabeth the second.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 03:03 PM

But, whatever other names she had, Jim, she had always been known as Princess Elizabeth, so choosing that name as her regnal one made perfect sense, surely?

(Not of course that it always worked that way: the monarch can choose any of his/her many names to reign under [tho whether they can adopt one if they want if they don't fancy any of the ones they have already, I am not sure]. Edward VIII was always David in the family, & George VI was Bertie.

Lilibet's horrible sister, I recall, was always called, in full, Margaret Rose until she grew up. I could never make out why.

~M~


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: GUEST,Ellen Vanin
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 03:49 PM

Of course they could always call it James Alexander Robert - after St. James the Apostle, Alexander the Great of Macedonia and Robert, father of William the Conquerer!

I'm not aware of any horrific howl from English people when the present Prince of Wales was called after some of the Stuart kings.

MtheGM - Margaret Rose sat on a pin. Margaret rose. (from primary school, a very long time ago)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 04:27 PM

"I'm not aware of any horrific howl from English people when the present Prince of Wales was called after some of the Stuart kings"

Charles is neutral to what I'm talking about. The first two kings called Charles were kings of both England and Scotland hence there is no number issue. The point I was making was that the Palace says that if there is a clash of numerals then the higher numeral would be used. Sounds fair enough but the fact of the matter is that there have been four instances where there has been an issue over the numeral and in each instance it has been because the name chosen had been a name used only by the monarchs of England or because the English numeral was higher. (two Edwards, a William and an Elizabeth) There has never been an occasion where the name chosen has been associated solely with the Scottish monarchy (ie David, Alexander) or where the Scottish numeral is higher (eg James). They have always chosen the one more suitable or more associated with England. Is that just a coincidence? Who knows? But we do know that there was a bit of a storm in Scotland in the 1950s over the issue. You do know for instance that post boxes in Scotland don't have the monarch's numeral on them like they do in England due to the issue. My point was that the English would be just as likely to moan at a King Alexander IV than the Scots did at Elizabeth II - except of course sheer demographics would ensure it is a far bigger collective moan. You may disagree with that but I'm stating my view and I think it is a pretty safe bet to say we won't have a potential King Robert anytime soon .


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 04:35 PM

" Edward VIII was always David in the family,"

Good point he was always known as David on a personal level and it would have been a perfect opportunity to give a nod towards their Scottish heritage and have another King David. They chose not to.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 04:57 PM

& just as well as it turned out, eh, Allan?!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: Jim McLean
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 05:01 PM

MtheGM I meant Elizabeth the second rather than Elozabeth the first. I believe some disquiet had been sensed over the sensitivity of the possible use of the English title but Churchill insisted on using EIIR.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 05:12 PM

Oh, right, gotcha now, Jim. Thanks for clarifying. Yes, I think that was probably the case.

~M~


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 24 Jun 13 - 05:16 PM

"& just as well as it turned out, eh, Allan?!" Well that is true! Which brings to mind the time I was in Edinburgh with an American who was on holiday (this was pre-Braveheart) and I was taking her up to Edinburgh Castle when she asked who the two statues represented. I said "King Robert the Bruce and William Wallace". The reply was "oh right, was he related to Wallace Simpson?". Took me a wee while to get it in my head that it was a genuine question and not a crap joke :-)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 16 - 03:38 PM

Let us all celebrate our rich heritage.

I give you a toast, ladies and gentlemen.
I give you a toast, ladies and gentlemen.
May this fair dear land we love so well
In dignity and freedom dwell.
Though worlds may change and go awry
While there is still one voice to cry

There'll always be an England
While there's a country lane,
Wherever there's a cottage small
Beside a field of grain.
There'll always be an England
While there's a busy street,
Wherever there's a turning wheel,
A million marching feet.

Red, white and blue; what does it mean to you?
Surely you're proud, shout it aloud,
"Britons, awake!"
The empire too, we can depend on you.
Freedom remains. These are the chains
Nothing can break.

There'll always be an England,
And England shall be free
If England means as much to you
As England means to me.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Mar 16 - 03:59 PM

I'm not sure this was Vera Lynn's shining moment, here she is:

The Deana Durbin version sounds far less militaristic:

Still, the song sounds too much like "I'm Proud to Be an American" [ God Bless the U.S.A. ] for my liking.

Jingoism makes me nervous.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: There'll Always Be an England
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 28 Mar 16 - 04:06 PM

There'll always be an England
While there's a country lane,
Wherever there's a cottage small
Beside a field of grain.
There'll always be an England
While there's a busy street,
Wherever there's a turning wheel,
A million marching feet.


That's us fucked then.


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