not bad for an englishman

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 08:11 AM

no,of course not,
and as I stated earlier, the majority of Irish people are very friendly.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: GUEST,beachcomber
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 07:21 AM

Good man Captain Birdseye. That is exactly what that person was acting, and poss/prob with drink taken too?
It happens everywhere, doesn't it ?
You aren't going to "go away" though are you ? from the music scene or from Ireland , I hope, because of one "b-----ks ?

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 02:30 PM

yes.but the woman[a Dubliner].does not do the booking.
she was just a dub,in west cork acting the bollocks.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 08:26 PM

Dick - did they book you back?

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 12:59 PM

I'm totally with Paul - I'm not, nor ever have been a 'Republican sympathyser', I have no idea of Ard Mhacha's political leanings so he can speak for himself.
I am interested what our politicians and military does in my name with the support of my taxes, and Ard Mhacha's described experience, and many more I know of (including a few of my own on visits to the North-East) go far beyond the pale as far as I'm concerned.
I am happy to discuss my views on Irish history with anybody off-line but please don't throw shit about.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Banjiman
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 11:14 AM

Please can this thread be closed.

It has degenerated from an amusing (or not) friendlyish debate about minor abuse (or not) of a fine singer and musician into something really nasty, scary and thuggish.

Paul

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 10:38 AM

"Teribus:
As you sidestepped offering an opinion on whether Ard Mhacha was a bomber"

Now you tell me Mr Carroll - exactly what part of this do you not understand:

"Jim, in no way have I stated any opinion as to whether Armagh planted bombs or not, I have no way of knowing that, perhaps you should direct that particular question to him."

But I do realise that you have a little trouble with simple comprehension - Armagh said that his little run in had happened "returning from my newsagent during the `troubles`," - You Mr. Carroll translate that to:

"For that matter, where were you when Teribus was justifying the thuggish behaviour of armed and uniformed thugs towards a member of this forum (repeated thousandsfold over the last forty years - this week) in the name of law and order?"

At least he walked away from it Jim, his fate would have been a damn sight less certain if it had been the un-uniformed thugs of PIRA that had reason to pull him up - classic example Mrs Jean McConville - in your diatribes about thuggery tell us about her Jim, what happened to her amounted to rather more than being spread-eagled against a wall, being shouted at and given a dig in the ribs - oh and of course she never walked home ever again did she, Jim??

Now let's see what would have happened had the Security Forces not been present in their role of aiding the civil power:

In the field of explosive ordnance disposal in the period 1972-1978, over 400 Wheelbarrows (remotely operated vehicles used to counter-mine bombs) were destroyed while dealing with terrorist devices. That's 400 bombs that did not go off, did not kill or maim anyone. I'll give you, Jim Carroll and your pal Armagh a little challenge - I've offered it before on this forum and up to date no republican sympathiser has ever been able to respond to it. Give me one example where a member of ANY paramilitary group, that operated during "The Troubles", sacrificed his own life to save a member of the public, a "civilian", in Northern Ireland. By the bye, bombers who died assembling or transporting their own bombs do not qualify.

Now I on the other hand can give you many, many, instances of members of the Security Forces, Police Force and emergency services who did just that. I can also give you many, many, instances where those you appear to support acted deliberately in such a way as to cause as much death and dismemberment of innocent civilians amongst the general population that they were telling the world they were trying to "protect". Both you and Armagh seem to have a very weird idea of what behaviour deserves condemnation - because I have never heard either of you condemn the excesses of the paramilitaries - and I mean all of them, republican as well as loyalist.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 09:43 AM

I lost patience with that one.

Did the nose flute with a union jack on it come anywhere in the top ten?

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 07:43 AM

Jim Carroll

where were you when...

They were over on the England's National Musical-Instrument? defending the UK folk scene against the serious threat to the UK folk scene posed by WalkAboutVerse's appalling poetry and championship of a mythical musical instrument.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 04:36 AM

The only persecuted minority on this thread are the musicians. Any attempt to addresss the basic proposition that its wrong and against the spirit of the folk club movement to undermine and not 'get behind ' the guest of your folk club is being firmly resisted.

One way to resist racism would be to create oases of tolerance and decency. The folk clubs used to be such places.

Racism is just part of the package of people who wish to give themselves a licence to be nasty, snotty, intolerant and generally full of shit. If you're not English enough for the English, not Irish enough for the Irish, not traditional enough for the traditionalists, not interesting enough for the ones who wish to be entertained....then its okay spew up bile, poison the waters.

Some people can't even bear to swim in the very waters they have themselves polluted. Damn right, the fault lines run through the movement like Blackpool through the rock.

Theres that parable about removing the plank from your own eye, whilst worrying about the speck in your neighbours.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 04:29 AM

Jim,

Dave... you are missing the point ...

You have sidestepped the point for so long, Jim, I am begining to wonder if you happen to be the world fencing champion!

You rally, rightly so, against John from Kensings racist views. Thanks for pointing them out, I apologise for missing them earlier. I suggest that if you want to know my views on this very subject ou go to this thread on 'British Criminality'. BUT IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE POINT.

If you want to know my view about apologists you need go no further than this thread. BUT IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE POINT.

But just in case I am not getting the message across again

1. Suggesting immigrants are troublemakers - WRONG
2. Beating up innocent Irishmen - WRONG
3. Blowing up innocent English people - WRONG
4. Making jokes based on nationalist stereotying - WRONG   

I said before and will say again - vastly differing degrees of wrong but wrong all the same. BUT IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE POINT.

But, back to the point. Remember that, the point? What this thread is about? Yes?

A musician felt, rightly or wrongly, that he had been the subject of number 4, above. None of us were there. Only him and the antagonist in question.

A few people believed that he over reacted and said so, quite politely. Fair enough.

Other people, maybe due to some personal feud, decided to use it as an opportunity to abuse him further still.

Some saw it as an excuse to restart Anglo-Irish hostilities

Others used it as a platform for racism.

I have made my mind up which faction to support and make no excuse for backing Dick. I know him, trust him and have no reason to believe he would lie.

I suggest people just make their own minds up as to whih mast they nail their colours too.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 03:27 AM

"John from Kemsing"
As you quite rightly anticipated, I do believe your contribution to be deeply racist and has no place on this thread. Should you wish to open the topic in the non-musical section I would be happy to participate.
In the meantime, I would like to thank you sincerely for emphasising my point on endemic racism so well.
To all those who raised their skirts, leapt on the table in horror and shouted "race" when the Cap'n told us of his ordeal - where were you when John made his point? Where were the roars of protest at his 'immigration equals violent crime, prostitution, drug-dealing, people trafficking equals "go somewhere else"?
For that matter, where were you when Terribus was justifying the thuggish behaviour of armed and uniformed thugs towards a member of this forum (repeated thousandsfold over the last forty years - this week) in the name of law and order?
Have you all shouted yourself hoarse at the mauling our Cap'n received at the hands of that dreadful Virago?
THE SILENCE WAS DEAFENING.
Terribus:
As you sidestepped offering an opinion on whether Ard Mhacha was a bomber, perhaps you might offer one on how many lives might have been saved by the thuggish behaviour he described.
Dave:
By suggesting that racism is confined to Sun and Daily Mail readers, you are missing the point - you are equally likely to find it among Financial Times and Telegraph readers - the accent may well be different, but the end result is the same. Racisim goes through our society like Blackpool goes through rock I'm afraid.
I have an apology to make.
When this thread started I had the feeling that I had fallen down a rabbit hole and had partaken from a bottle marked "drink me" - I often do with some member's contributions. I couldn't for the life of me see where racism entered the equasion.
I was wrong - racism is present in abundance on this thread - I was looking in the wrong direction.
Would any of you like the use of a mirror?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 06:57 PM

"you are a umusicianly tuneless twat, and you could for bore at professional level for the small nations cup winners cup. are you by any chance in training for the 440 yards boring buggers olympic event?"

I didn't realise you knew my girlfriend.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 06:03 PM

well no - if she'd said - you are a umusicianly tuneless twat, and you could for bore at professional level for the small nations cup winners cup. are you by any chance in training for the 440 yards boring buggers olympic event? - that would require wit, sang froid, and a certain je ne sais quoi.

Not to say physical courage - for he might come up with a rejoinder like Bugger off! You sad git. No I won't sign your cd!

being a snotty snerchy superior sneering shitbag is just so typical, it precludes all that badinage!

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 05:36 PM

The phrase 'not a bad singer for an Englishman' says merely that there are Englishmen who are better at singing and there are those who are worse. That is a fact. Trying to make an issue of racism out of someone calling an Englishman an Englishman looks plain batty to me, or at worst, racist in itself. I'm quite sure if the lady had actually intended to be racist or insulting, she could have done a lot better than that.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Aeola
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 03:41 PM

Phew!! I sense some sort of resolution to the main thread and the many sub-threads. I think the main problem is that our views are coloured by our very individual experiences. Personally I must have been very fortunate through life for I have met so many people I would call friends and very few I wouldn't. It was some 40 years ago when I first visited Eire at the time the border guard's hut was blown up at Newry. On my travels I met all sorts of people in Dublin, Naas, Cork, Bantry, Galway, Dingle etc and everyone welcomed me. I have been back many times and still continue to make good friends. Funny thing is the same thing happens in Europe, Central America and Southern England, Wales & Scotland oh! and Yorkshire!!!!

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: ard mhacha
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 02:21 PM

Dave with your permission is it ok if I close this version of , much ado about nothing.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 12:45 PM

Hey! Didn't know I had that sort of power:-) Wonder if I can do the same with Gordon Brown???

It will never be won or lost, BC, but surely it's the journey that matters - not the destination.

Cheers

D.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: GUEST,beachcomber
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 11:28 AM

I go away, just to obey Dave, and ..they're still at it!
Does anyone imagine that the argument will be won , if it goes on long enough?

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 11:08 AM

yeh right, we're all such sensitive flowers.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 11:04 AM

Ah well Al, I dare say anybody could take offence at anything that is said to them, their problem.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 10:58 AM

surely its up to the person who's suffered rudeness to say whether he has or not.

as for ard, well they weren't carrying on like that in Margaret thatcher's constituency, were they/ you could argue a racial basis.

However people don't say shit like that to plumbers and dog walkers and ambulance men - whatever their nationality.

Its something that afflicts musician. that's what we're talking about.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 09:59 AM

"Teribus you've had an umpteen threads to bang on about this" - WLD

"In response to Jim Carroll's post of 04 Oct 08 - 11:41 AM and his comments relating to my statement:"

"In response to" being the operative phrase.

"this is something I care about, which doesn't come up all that often. Namely the way some people think its alright to be rude to visiting musicians." - WLD

Eh, No Al. The thread is about people making what could be construed as "racist" comments. And I, for one, do not believe that the lady in question was being rude, or "racist" at all. In exactly the same way I do not believe that Armagh's experience, as described by him in this thread, unpleasant as it undoubtedly was for him had nothing to do with "racism".

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 08:21 AM

Jim,
      The following has nothing to do with the original innocent thread but reading your comments, I feel a response is in order.
         I hope, for the sake of everybody, our younger generations will be much more tolerant and integrate to the extent that differences are diluted as to be insignificant. But please spare a thought for those older Britons who have seen changes, over a very short period, in their land and citizenry that they find difficult to come to terms with.
       Areas, dominated by "communities", illegal immigration with agencies unable to impose effective redress, undoubtedly increases in violent crime(Especially the knife and gun. When Craig and Bentley were involved with shooting the policeman it occupied the press for ages. Today there are so many daily incidents it`s not worth reporting). The capital and other major cities being even more ridden than the 60`s with sleaze, prostitution, people traffiking, drug dealing, street fraud, mostly in the hands people coming to this land from abroad and the police apparently hamstrung to do a lot about it. Calls for changes in our laws, set by our parliament, to accomodate people whose beliefs are different from those of the indigenous population(nobody seems prepared to say "If you don`t like the way we do it, try elsewhere"). Groups of people flagrantly disregarding the rules and regulations necessary for a towns and cities to exist in harmony and comfort and the elected authorities whose job it is to enforce them, for the good of all, stymied by political pressure.
             This is only the tip of the iceberg. If you feel speaking out about the above is "racist" then well and good but could you possibly recognize also it could be a cry in the wilderness from folks who feel they have lost something that was dear to them. Naturally, no country is squeaky clean when it comes to crime,etc. and we are no exception, all the more we have no need to import it.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 08:16 AM

Teribus you've had an umpteen threads to bang on about this. this is something I care about, which doesn't come up all that often. Namely the way some people think its alright to be rude to visiting musicians.

And its on the music half of the page, which I think underlines what the subject under discussion is, or should be.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 07:31 AM

In response to Jim Carroll's post of 04 Oct 08 - 11:41 AM and his comments relating to my statement:

"I would venture the opinion Armagh that had those "English accented.....armed uniformed strangers" had not been present the butchers bill amongst the civilian population would have been a damn sight higher."


Please read this Jim and then tell me what the number of dead and injured would have been without the presence of the Security Forces.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Friday_(1972)

"The Nazis who decimated Lidice used a similar argument" according to Jim.

No they did not Jim, by the bye Lidice was not decimated by the Nazis as you stated it was completely destroyed you can read about it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidice

Funny thing about the term "decimate" and how people use it. Decimation was a form of military discipline used by officers in the Roman Army to punish mutinous or cowardly soldiers. The word decimation is derived from Latin meaning "removal of a tenth." i.e. it was a severe form of punishment that did not seriously destroy the fighting capability of the formation it was imposed on.

And no Jim, in no way have I stated any opinion as to whether Armagh planted bombs or not, I have no way of knowing that, perhaps you should direct that particular question to him.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: ard mhacha
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 04:41 PM

Dick if I ever meet you in Ireland I will personally apologise for that nasty lady`s remark and buy you a pint.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 01:58 PM

Perhaps the lady in question was simply being honest and expressing her opinion. She must have quite liked your singing to have even bothered to have stayed long enough to do that. Be grateful. Smile graciously and say 'thank you'. It's called professionalism.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: ard mhacha
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 01:34 PM

Teribus and Dick, if only my old arthritic limbs had at that moment not been playing up , just think, a few more knife wielders would have been off the streets of England.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 01:22 PM

Well, the bathroom's a lovely shade of blue. Along with bits of me, but that's life:-)

Nice to see you Ard Mhacha - What kept you:-)

No one at all is decrying the events you describe. On a scale of 1 to 1000, Dick's episode is about 0.5 and yours must be up in the millions, but it is all part of the same problem. Once you see different people as something lower than you, these things will happen. Whether it is snide remarks or the army boot - If it is meant to hurt someone because they are different then it is wrong. Vastly different degrees of wrong of course but both wrong all the same.

Betsy. If whingeing means believeing that no person should be subject to abuse, verbal or physical, because of their race, creed, nationality, colour, sex or anything else then sign me up. I would be more than happy to be a whingeing Pom if did something to stop the mistreatment of the indigenous Australian peoples.

Just to remind people and maybe put this back on thread - None of us were there. No one heard or saw what was said except Dick. We do not know the lady in question's intentions. If Dick said it was done maliciously then I know him well enough to believe him. I may treat the situation differently myself but Dick has every right to complain if he feels it was abusive. And he should be allowed to do so without getting further abuse from people who have no idea what really happened!

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Betsy
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 12:25 PM

As an English person - through and through - but a great lover of Irish and Scottish songs and tunes - reading some of the posts may give credence to Aussies calling us whingeing Poms.
I cannot believe as I said earlier that this remark was nothing more than a bit of craic.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Tradsinger
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 12:05 PM

I saw a sign in an America store once saying 'Please patronize our staff'. I was tempted to go up to one of the employees and say 'You speak quite good English for an American'. But I didn't
:-)

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 11:41 AM

"I would venture the opinion Armagh that had those "English accented.....armed uniformed strangers" had not been present the butchers bill amongst the civilian population would have been a damn sight higher."
I seem to remember that the Nazis who decimated Lidice used a similar argument - or are you suggesting that Ard Mhacha was planting bombs
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 09:36 AM

On the thread topic:

"I finished a gig last night,sat sep27,a woman approached me and said I was not a bad singer for an Englishman."

Unfortunately I do not know what material Dick was using that night. As a Scot if I was singing predominantly Irish songs to an Irish audience, and the same thing happened to me, I'd take it as a compliment, the lady after all did feel that the performance warranted praise but even I would not expect to sing "folk" or "street" songs as well of someone born in the place the song was written about. For example there are some very well known Dublin songs that should never, ever be sung by anyone who does not have a Dublin accent, they sound terrible.

I believe Dick that this lady did enjoy your performance and that it was a compliment - I have heard you sing and have enjoyed it immensely. Whatever the upshot don't let it put you off.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 09:27 AM

In what way was it rascist Armagh??

What newspaper was it?

Now correct me if I am wrong but were those those troubles where a group of edjits with no mandate from anybody went around planting bombs designed to kill and terrorise the civilian population.

If memory serves me correctly they managed to kill about 2500 - 3000 of them and wound and maim about 30,000 of the very people that they were proclaiming they were "protecting".

I would venture the opinion Armagh that had those "English accented.....armed uniformed strangers" had not been present the butchers bill amongst the civilian population would have been a damn sight higher.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: ard mhacha
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 08:04 AM

What an amazing Thread, Dick consider this, returning from my newsagent during the `troubles`, I was spreadeagled up the wall of my house, my eardrums blasted by an English accented soldier who entertained his mates by suggesting that the newspaper I carried was for wiping my ass.
I was smashed in the ribs by one of these peace-keepers and staggered into my home, now that was racist.
Think about it, in your own street confronted by armed uniformed strangers, do you get the message, God help Dick he really suffered.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 05:52 AM

BTW - May not be able to answer for a while. Going back to my roots and painting the bathroom:-)

D.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 05:49 AM

Jim, I am a computer consultant and have worked with dozens of different people at all levels. I have always lived in Manchester and now live just outside 'inner city' Salford. My father immigrated here from Poland and worked in the mines and mills of Lancashire before marying my shop girl mother. He became a painter and decorator and I followed him into the building trade at first, becoming a clerk, then inspector for the local council building maintenance department. I am, and always will be, a working man.

I drink in the pubs around Salford and Swinton and, yes, there is some awful bigotry goes on in the vaults and bars, usualy from people with a Sun or Daily Mail under their arms. I myself was subjected to bigotry at a young age and my parents changed our surname from Polakow to help stop this. But conversley, in the folk clubs, where most of my good fiends come from, you would be hard pushed to find a bigot amongst them. I don't believe that situation is any different from anywhere else in the world. The point is, there is good and bad everywhere.

I am not looking though rose tinted glasses, nor am I 'cocooned' as you suggest. But neither do I view the majority of English people with the cynicism you do. I think we are both flogging a dead horse if we try to make a guess as to what the percentage of bigots would be - You may start at 90% and I may start at 10. I don't think we will ever meet. The point is you cannot say, whatever the percentage is, that the English are a nation of bigots. It is demonstrably not true and blatantly wrong to mark a whole nation with the traits of some of it's people.

And this is where we came in.

Using stereotyping to portray a whole nation as one type of person, whether it is to say they ae bigots, they cannot sing or they are thick, is neither true nor acceptable. I suspect I will never convince you otherwise but if, on occasions, someone stops to think what the consequences of calling someone a thick Paddy, tight Jock or racist George are then at least I will have done my bit.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 05:11 AM

I still don't see why that makes it allright to be rude to travelling musicians who come your folk club. theres no excuse. wherever they come from, or wherever you come from. theres simply no place for that sort of snide remark.

Its a major discourtesy to someone who has travelled to your club and tried to entertain you. You can sit at home and make nasty remarks to the TV screen, but in company we should try to be more civilised.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 04:34 AM

Dave,
I didn't say England was inhabited by 'racist thugs' - nor do I believe it to be the case. The racists I met were mainly 'ordinary decent people' - apart from the fact that they were racists.
Fortunately, the vast majority of people anywhere who hold views - about anything - never act on them - they just hold them - and tend to elect politicians who 'they believe' will carry them out.
Powell's downfall came because he became a political embarrassment and stepped over the line of diplomatic decency , not because thousands took to the streets in opposition to his filth. On the contrary, the majority of people I spoke to at the time (and later - and in some cases even now) agreed with him and many yearn for his like again - just try to think back to the open support he got from all quarters.
I have no idea where you live and what you do for a living; I am a manual worker and have lived in three of the major cities in the UK. Because the subject of racism is important to me I have always sought the views of those I worked and socialised with - the opinions I now hold are based on my own experiences, backed up by what I have read and discussed with others. In my opinion, Britain is a deeply racist society, largely passive, but capable of surfacing when the occasion arises.
In London, for over thirty years we chose to work with a persecuted minority - Irish Travellers. We witnessed and were a subject to discrimination and harassment, both institutionalised and general, on a regular basis. Perhaps you would like to hear about the proposed fire-bombing of a Gypsy site on Streatham Common which we helped to prevent (or the ones that we know took place), or the hundreds of pubs we couldn't get served in because of the 'No Travellers signs on the doors, or our being stopped regularly by the police in the vicinity of the sites because we might have been thieving, or the police in East London who took back-handers so they would leave the Travellers in peace, or the many unofficial evictions by private security firms (including the one that burned three Traveller children to death because of the reckless manner in which it was carried out), or the persecution of Traveller children who tried to attend school, or the rat infested sites Travellers were forced to stop on (often used by opportunist locals as a rubbish dump) because the councils refused to carry out their legally required duty to provide official stopping places - or perhaps all this might penetrate the cocoon you appear to have wrapped yourself in!
A suggestion - wherever you live, take a straw pole of those around you; many will almost certainly tell you they are not racist, then go on to prove that in fact they are. Ask them about asylum seekers, about immigrants, Gypsies, Muslims - and see what you come up with, and how much your findings confirm or contradict my own.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 06:30 PM

By all means tell me that in-built bigotry in Britain isn't your experience

OK - in-built bigotry in Britain isn't my experience. :-D

Can you say that just because it is yours that it is everyones? I think I have just proven that you cannot. So why say that, because it is your experience, it must be everyones?

I mentioned before. I had a strange experiece on Antigua, where I was called a 'white nigger' by a group of young black men. Does it mean that Antiguans are bigots? Does it hell. I have enough common sense to know that all Antiguans are not represented by the ones that took offence at my walking down their road. Because you had some bad experiences of bigotry you are now saying that all Englishmen are bigots? Well, maybe not but it is what you are implying and this thread is about implications based on stupid stereotypes.

For heavens sake, Jim. get a grip. The vast majority of ALL people are decent human beings who would not wish harm on anyone. The English are no exception. Oh - and I think you will find that not only the UK have anti-racism laws. See the post, above, by Martin Ryan, "Ireland has recently had its first case of a complaint of racist treatment of an English worker in the workplace, upheld."

I am also of an age to remember the 'rivers of blood' speech. I can also remember what it did to Mr Powells political career. Tell me, hand on heart, that you believe that England is inhabited by racist thugs and I think you will prove just who is the bigot after all.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 04:15 PM

Statistically we're all better off than the poor sods born in the third world. what has dick being english got to do with it.

If someone was rude to Dick - no its not all right. when you travel round as a solo artist -   its not all right to be rude to anyone and try to discomfort them when they are a guest in your club.

Incidentally the last time I was Ireland I stayed with a lady of afro carribean background and she was getting out. She thought Dublin was a very racist place and all her family had been the subject racist attacks and abuse. She was from Manchester and she thought Dublin was more racist than Manchester or London.

round where I live in the Nottinghamshire pit villages (although there ain't no pits no more!) - the people are also insular and racist. Our newsagents children were the subject of a race attack.

Attitudes are changing but only very slowly, and probably not at all amongst the older and less educated people. The tory press wih its nasty stream of innuendo and smear is part of the problem. None of us can afford to be smug about this evil in our midst.

None of which changes the fact that, Dick doesn't deserve to have to put up with sneery snidey shit from obnoxious arseholes who should be kept in a kennel and away from the folk clubs where the grown ups play.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Banjiman
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 03:17 PM

I find myself in the unusual situation of agreeing with almost all that Jim Carroll has said on this thread.


....I still can't take the original question seriously. I just don't think that white males of Dick's obvious intelligence and talent can really be disadvataged by many "isms". He belongs to one of the historically and currently most privileged groups in the world. ....who should be big enough (and understand the other persons position enough) to laugh off the kind of comment made, however it was intended.

Then we can start to worry about those who really suffer oppression and disadvantage based on illogical prejudices.

Paul

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 02:40 PM

"Yet another bigoted stereotype, I'm afraid."
Dave,
By all means tell me that in-built bigotry in Britain isn't your experience, but please don't tell me it isn't mine.
I can only speak as I have experienced on both sides of the fence.
Over my last 20 years of living in London it got such a stage that, to my eternal shame I just avoided discussions on race because of the inevitable arguments. What upset me the most was that it was automatically assumed by the people I was talking to that I shared their racist views.
I'm just old enough to remember the "No Blacks, No Dogs, No Irish" notices in the windows of boarding houses in Liverpool; my father worked in a building industry where many of the firms operated a strict 'No Irish Need Apply' policy.
I was educated in a system which had me flag-wagging on Empire Day and singing racist hymns about keeping foreigners hands "from error's chain".
I remember the Kings Cross Colour Bar Strike and the Notting Hill riots. A few months ago I watched a re-run of Enoch Powell's 'Rivers of Blood' speech and the East London dockers marching in support of his racist policies.
When I moved to London in the sixties and started phoning round for work I was invariably asked where I was from, and on at least three occasions I was asked what colour I was.
If I was working on a site and the topic of conversation turned to race I invariably found myself on my own.
In the course of our work with Travellers I was once unfortunate enough to end up in The Blade Bone pub in the East End where they had a Union Jack hanging up behind the counter and a picture of a lynching in the American South on the wall.
The London I lived and worked in was an extremely racist city - please don't try to tell me it wasn't.
Racism is so endemic a part of British life that it has been necessary to create laws to counteract it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 10:49 AM

I don't think it matters, Pip. Even a small percentage of anti-anything bigotry is too much. BTW - I could be one of the few people on here that has been called a 'white nigger'! Happend on Antigua when a group of young men in a pickup truck drove by. Still not sure what it means!

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 10:46 AM

By this vey remark you are portraying the English as a nation of right wing racist thugs.

I think you're misreading Jim's argument. I think the point is that there just isn't that much anti-English bigotry around, precisely because historically (or even in the last 100 years) there's been a lot more oppression by people claiming to be English than oppression of people labelled as English.

I don't entirely agree with Jim about laughing this kind of thing off - I think it's wrong & shouldn't be condoned - but I do agree that anti-English bigotry just isn't a political problem in the world out there, in a way that (say) anti-black bigotry very definitely is. Think of it as a statement about statistical probability - if you take any random incident of national bigotry, anywhere in the North Atlantic Archipelago, how likely is it that the victim has been singled out for being English? Not very likely, I suspect.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 10:19 AM

I can assure everyone that I did not want to start the 'racist' argument. Apologies for mentioning it but I will restate my original post to make my intentions clear. If, as an Englishman, I had the temerity to poke fun at the Irish I would have been accused of racism within a dozen posts. I suspect the thread would be closed. As to the view than some Irish people hold for the English please just look back at some of the threads on mucat to see examples of anti-Englishness. BTW - There is only one race as far as I am concerned - The Human race. That out of the way let us then look at 'bigotry' as Jim calls it.

As things stand at present, the English are far more likely to be the perps rather than the victims of racism.

Yet another bigoted stereotype, I'm afraid. By this vey remark you are portraying the English as a nation of right wing racist thugs. Besides, even if this were true, would it not be better to stand up to the 'perps' rather than make snide comments?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 08:15 AM

PS Sminky/Terry:
Point taken - perhaps 'national bigotry' would be a better term.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Megan L
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 08:14 AM

strange no one seems to have looked at the truth of the matter, the good lady had in fact seen a great many first class English singers and musicians and was merely stating a fact.

Meg *grabbing her coat and heading for the cellar

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 08:07 AM

"You say it is unacceptable to make disparaging remarks about the talents of Black or Jewish people, yet conversely feel that the same remarks to an Englishman can be laughed off. Why is this?"
Your hypothetical examples would be totally ridiculous and dismissible on a level playing field - which in our case we have not got!!!
As things stand at present, the English are far more likely to be the perps rather than the victims of racism.
Whether it appeals to us as individuals or not, cross-nation, community, trade, gender, religious..... differences, whatever social group you care to to name, are a long established part of our culture and as such, have been the subjects of our theater, literature or entertainment - take a look at Shakespeare, Chaucer, Marlowe, (or our folk-songs) if you doubt this. It is only when it is intentionally vindictive and the political or social situation merits caution that this becomes a problem - if no actual conflict between the groups exist, it may not be to your (or my) taste, but it really doesn't matter. For those who seek it out, offence can be found in anything - do we really want to 'please all of the people all of the time' and reduce our lives to anodyne numbness?
Can anybody seriously believe (apart from the most 'precious' among us) that 'not bad for an Englishman' was intended as an insult?
Were the situation different and genuine antipathy by the Irish towards us Brits alive and kicking, the case would be different - as things stand a Brit is far more likely to refer to a "T'ick Paddy", than an Irishman to a "tight-arsed Englishman" (or even "a British Hun" - very popular pre-1922). When I was working as an electrician in London I can vividly remember being told by one of my customers - "We have an Irish family living a few doors away; we always check under our car before we drive away in the morning".
We get a large number of British visitors here throughout the year; for the music, the surfing, the beaches - or just for the friendliness and hospitality Ireland is renowned for. This sort of raillery goes on constantly - from all directions - without giving offence.
For crying out loud - don't make problems were there are none and please don't reduce racism to such trivia as this, it really merits far more seriousness.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 06:23 AM

There are only three 'races' in the world - Caucasian, Mongoloid and Negroid.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 06:09 AM

There seems to be an awful lot of different 'races' springing up all of a sudden. I wasn't aware that the Irish were from a different 'race' to me, an englishman. Different nation, sure, same as the French, Germans, Australians etc, but different 'race'? Says who? By what criteria?

Is 'not bad for a Lancastrian' racist?
Is 'not bad for a Prestonian' racist?
Is 'not bad for someone from Beesley Street' racist?
Is 'not bad for someone from no.24' racist?

Where does all this end? And who are the people trying to separate everyone into little racial packages? Is that not itself a racist act?

To be told 'not bad for an englishman' by an Irish person, even if intended to be insulting, may be nationalistic prejudice, and should be condemned as such, but it ain't racism.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 05:39 AM

these can certainly be viewed as part of the problem and are therefore not acceptable - obviously.

Thanks for the answer, at last, Jim. It is not obvious to me though. You say it is unacceptable to make disparaging remarks about the talents of Black or Jewish people, yet conversely feel that the same remarks to an Englishman can be laughed off. Why is this? Are the English, as a nation, more tollerant of criticism? Do we not take offence as easily as some others? Maybe we are not human at all?

You say that a deep racism exists towards some people. Well, how does it help to compound the issue by making potentialy racist remarks about yet anoter group. Are you saying, in this case, two wrongs DO make a right?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Paul Burke
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 04:52 AM

I take it Jim Carroll is not best mates with Dick.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 04:24 AM

"I would suggest that if you do not like the way a particular thread is going it may be more sensible to stay out of it. Perhaps one definition of a crazy person is one who keeps reading a thread that he or she doesn't like"
And allow the crazies to run the asylum - don't think so really.
This, for a Brit living in Ireland, has been one of the more disturbing threads on this forum.
When what is obviously (to me anyway) little more than a flippant remark resulting in an over-inflated ego receiving a slight dent, being blown up into an unbelievably misinformed discussion on British/Irish relations, something is rotten in the state of somewhere or other.
I repeat, in nearly 40 years association with this country we have never received anything but friendship and hospitality here - and this when the political situation between the two countries was at its worst. Yet we are told that the situation is really comparable to the relationship between the Nazis and the Jews and that we should "keep our heads down" - personally, I find this extremely depressing.
Given the history of the two countries (a history which, for some Brits seems to screech to an abrupt halt with Cromwell, but in fact lasted nearly to the end of the 20th century), it has always surprised me that there isn't more antagonism from the Irish, but as far as I can see - there isn't. It is interesting that, apart from The Cap'n's little hissy-fit (and his profound advice to the Irish nation on reforming their world outlook), this thread is devoid of any other example of anti-Brit rhetoric on the part of the Irish.
The ironic thing in all this is that over the last decade racism in Ireland has accelerated alarmingly. It has a long way to go before it reaches the proportions of the racism I encountered almost on a daily basis in the UK, which was extremely democratic and aimed at anybody regarded as foreign: Asians, Africans, French, Germans, Northerners.... to people from the wrong side of the Thames.
Here it is aimed mainly at asylum seekers and economic migrants - and of course, the old enemy - the Travellers. The Brits don't come into the picture; any hatred for them is reserved for the politicians and the military, and even then, appears to confine itself to pre-1922.
Racism is becoming a major problem here and nonsense like this, far from helping the situation, serves only to trivialise it as surely as WLD's odious comparison trivialises the Holocaust.
It really is time that some people took their heads out of their 'Land of Hope and Glory' arses and saw themselves as others see them.
Dave Polshaw
"The Irish are bad singers.... etc"
Your question - sorry, I thought I had answered it.
Taken as they stand all of your quotes are innocuously stupid enough to be dismissed as such and ignored. However, in the case of Blacks and Jews, taken in the context of the deep racism that already exists towards these people, in the UK and elsewhere, these can certainly be viewed as part of the problem and are therefore not acceptable - obviously.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Paul Burke
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 04:09 AM

I'll not have you claiming I'm intelligent or talented Al.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 08:00 PM

'If it was made in a hostile tone, the person making it was a fool.'

not necessarily. some people who are very intelligent and talented have very unpleasant personalities.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Thompson
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 03:17 PM

Surely (to get back to the original query) the question of intent is easy to solve.

If the comment was made with a twinkle in the eye, it was a joke, and probably a challenging bit of flirting.

If it was made in a hostile tone, the person making it was a fool.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 02:39 PM

Ah, but what is sane and what isn't? I found MOST of the thread quite sane an civilised. Would you care to tell us what you found particularly crazy about this thread, Beachcomber and Betsy? What qualifies you to make that diagnosis? Wouldn't life be boring if everything was the same?

I would suggest that if you do not like the way a particular thread is going it may be more sensible to stay out of it. Perhaps one definition of a crazy person is one who keeps reading a thread that he or she doesn't like;-)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: GUEST,Betsy at Work
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 07:34 AM

Seconded Beachcomber !!!!!!!

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: GUEST,beachcomber
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 07:03 AM

Whew! Sanity restored then !

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 01:13 PM

The best version of the Bonny Bunch of Roses I ever heard, and the one he played for me loads of times as a request was the late Tony Capstick's. tear your heart out stuff! Just something in his voice.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 11:54 AM

Thanks Pip - Decided if you are coming along to Swinton on the 18th yet? The all day singaround / session realy is a cracker - and free! Who drove last time? Must be your turn for a pint or two:-)

D.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 11:21 AM

Dave - yes, that makes sense.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Paul Burke
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 10:56 AM

I suggest we ignore this illiterate trump henceforth. He clearly isn't up for rational discussion.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: GUEST,Onion Cat
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 10:54 AM

"Kindly explain. What do you think is racist?"

Well, your comment for starters. Keep up!!

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 10:45 AM

Ahhhh - Gotcha Pip

that's understandable in a way that anti-Irish prejudice isn't.

As long as no-one tries to use 'understandable' as 'justifiable'.

My argument is that there is no justification for using a racial stereotype. Surely you could agree with that?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 10:35 AM

My last comment seems to have got lost - shame, since it was about folk music!

My Bonny Bunch of Roses is based on Nic Jones's version, which may or may not be distantly related to the Rose Tree. The original broadside was set to the Bonny Bunch of Rushes, which I think is a different tune again - certainly the repeats are different (Rose Tree: 1121; BBoRushes: 1212; Nic Jones's BBoRoses: 1221). My main contribution to Nic Jones's tune is to hammer some of the ornamentation out of it & coax it back towards 4/4.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 10:30 AM

Paul Burke isn't a racist.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Paul Burke
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 09:51 AM

Kindly explain. What do you think is racist?

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: GUEST,Onion Cat
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 09:42 AM

Your problem for being a racist matey :-)

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Paul Burke
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 09:06 AM

Wow! This thread has turned into one of those right wing BBC message boards!..."Perhaps the appropriate response would have been to congratulate her on her fluent English."

Might have been a comment like that. Tut tut Paul!

Your problem?

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 08:52 AM

Dave,

Terry Yarnell sings Bonny Bunch of Roses to the tune of The Rose Tree - is that what you were thinking of?

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 08:51 AM

I'm beginning to think that Pip is part of what David Lowenthal calls the MOPE School of History

Not in the least. My view of history is that all sorts of people have been oppressed for all sorts of reasons, and the more important reasons are very rarely the ones that get shouted about the most. And I don't condone people slagging off 'the English', still less slagging off English people to their face. As far as that goes I agree with WLD - the 'compliment' paid to Dick was downright rude.

What I don't agree with is Dave P's argument that all kinds of discrimination and bias are the same. I never kicked any Irish peasants off their land - my ancestors were working in smithies and bakeries while all that was going on - but English people did: if you're Irish and you're bitter against the English, that's understandable in a way that anti-Irish prejudice isn't.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 08:43 AM

I didn't mean to use that many OK's - OK?

:D

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 08:41 AM

Thanks Pip (Slow day for you too? :-) )

I can see your reasoning now and, although I disagree with it, it is a huge improvement on the thinly disguised insults and sneers that some people use in place of reason. What I disagree with is that it is 'excusable'. Racial stereotyping should not be excused, even if made in jest. For all the reasons that Paul mentions above plus the fact that it does nothing at all to improve the strained relationship that the two countries have had for countless years. Who oppressed whom and when is in the past and although we should learn from it we should leave the past hatreds there.

It's only a short step from 'OK for an Englishman' to 'Bastard Brits' and a bombing campaign. OK - I know it is extreme but when enough people begin to think that the Englishman has no soul then it becomes OK to treat him as something other than a human being with feelings. Just as when enough people believed in 'Thick Paddies' and 'Heathen Blacks' it became OK to enslave them. Should we not learn by those mistakes and try to stop being hurtful?

OK, I am by no means perfect and cannot help making the odd hurtful remark either unthinkingly or in the heat of the moment. Trying to justify it only makes it worse:-(

Good to see you the other day btw - When Dick was on of course! Maybe we we should have said he was OK for a Southerner;-) Out of interest, the song you did, Bonny bunch of Roses, is done by Bernard Wrigley to a completely different tune - Sounds very much like a slow version of Salmontails. Have you heard that one?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 08:27 AM

Try this one, (which seems to fit Pip's rules)

A McDonald can say 'Not bad for a Campbell' but a Campbell can't say 'Not bad for a McDonald.'

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: GUEST,Onion Cat
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 08:20 AM

"Where did you get that impression, Onion Cat?"

Erm, let me just think about that one.....

Oh here it is;

"Perhaps the appropriate response would have been to congratulate her on her fluent English."

Might have been a comment like that. Tut tut Paul!

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 07:59 AM

Plus the point everyone seems to be neglecting.

Visiting artists are called 'guests'.

This is because they are strangers perhaps visiting a place they have never been before. And the spirit of the folk club movement (somethng which is sneered at in a dozen different unconscious ways, usually by people who have assumed a magisterial role - deciding what is and what isn't folk music) - says that you treat the'guest' as a guest. That means courtesy. It means friendliness.

Its what attracted me to the folk club movement. And it always grieves me to see this unwritten contract not being honoured by either side.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Paul Burke
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 07:35 AM

Let's rephrase that a little bit: it's seen as OK by some to give the English a hard time, because it's believed, rightly or wrongly, that the English have given other people a bad time in the past.

The flaws in that attitude are obvious. First, the ones they are taking it out on aren't the ones who gave them trouble. Secondly, they aren't the ones who got the aggro, they only know of it by repute. Thirdly, petty revenge is stupid. And fourth, when you really look into it, it was seldom as simple as "the English hate the xxx" (substitute name of putative victim).

People always want someone to blame for their woes, and Ireland is certainly less developed than many European countries as a direct result of imperial policy. But it's a long way from Lord John Russell to Dick Miles.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: GUEST,Piece
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 07:29 AM

I was once told by an American woman that I was 'not a bad lover for a Brit'.....

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 07:22 AM

I'm beginning to think that Pip is part of what David Lowenthal calls the MOPE School of History in his 'Possessed by the Past - the Replacement of History by Heritage.' MOPE? 'We are the Most Oppressed People.....Ever.'

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 07:07 AM

Why is it OK to take the piss out of the English but not out of other people?

a) I don't think it's OK, I think it's rude and ungracious. But I think it's excusable in a way that taking the piss out of (e.g.) the Irish isn't.

b) The reason we've got on to "who oppressed whom and when" is that that's what makes all the difference.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 06:51 AM

Thick Paddy and uptight Englishman are both stereotypes and both wrong. Who said the latter is OK and the former isn't isn't? Why? And why on earth have we got onto who oppressed whom and when?

Only one person has answered the question up to now and I feel that answer needs an explanation. Why is it OK to take the piss out of the English but not out of other people?

Nice to see that Jim has sucessfully managed to evade the question by intimating that anyone that does not agree with him has no sense of humour. Must try it myself:-)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 05:01 AM

Your English is not bad for a German.
Your English is not bad for an Irishman.

Superficially identical, the context makes these two remarks different.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 04:38 AM

I don't disagree with the points made by Paul and Terry, which makes it hard to argue with them. But I'll try...

We're talking about nationality both as a label one group applies to another, and as an identity members of a group claim for themselves. And yes, it is a massive oversimplification to say (for instance) "the Irish have been oppressed by the English since Cromwell's time": it would be truer to say that different groups in Ireland (most of whom we'd recognise as Irish) have been oppressed at different times by different groups of powerful people (most of whom we'd recognise as English), many of whom also oppressed lots of other people while they were at it.

But here's the thing: the negative labelling of 'Irish' was involved in a lot of those complex processes - and many people looking back on that history now do claim the identity of 'Irish'. "The English oppressed the Irish" obviously isn't be a true statement, for all the reasons we've been through. But I think it is true enough to be a legitimate source of resentment: some of the forebears of contemporary English people did oppress people who contemporary Irish people recognise as their forebears, and the negative labelling of 'Irish' was part of that oppression. 'English' as an insult just doesn't have that kind of history of injustice behind it. ('Common' on the other hand...)

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Paul Burke
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 03:28 AM

Where did you get that impression, Onion Cat? There seems to be a wide range of opinion represented here, including mine, which of course is the right one.

When have the English, as a national group, ever suffered systematic, enduring, deprivation and oppression?

It's true that between the mid 17th century and the late 18th century there were oppressive laws applied in Ireland, but note that these were targeted against Catholics, not the Irish as a "nation" (if an Irish nation existed at that stage. Outside these times, oppression was applied as much on a class basis as on nationality, and noblemen came and went from favour as they supported or opposed the government of the day.

As for oppression of the English as a group, you could (and people did) argue for the period from Edward the Confessor to about the mid 13th century, and from 1973 to date :)

Were the Scots ever oppressed "as a national group"? As for the mobilisation of English national feeling against the Irish, this kind of nationalism has been a given of almost all distinguishable groups for centuries, a useful tool for authority, and continues today. This divide- and- rule tactic has split many Northern towns, despite the interests of the white working class being identical to those of the Asian ancestry.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: GUEST,Onion Cat
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 02:53 AM

Wow! This thread has turned into one of those right wing BBC message boards!

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 06:11 PM

oops - emigrated for a better life, that is!

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 06:08 PM

Come off it Pip - the English people were oppressed by their 'betters' for centuries. I'm also an academic historian (as I assume you are)and not a left wing one but have always been conscious that the problem (in all countries) lies with the nature of the ruling class. More English people emigrated to North America (and elsewhere) in the 18th and 19th centuries than the Irish or Scots, but that's not good for the myth.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 06:05 PM

The intention to wound and hurt with a remark is pretty unmistakeable. Particularly when you're a solo artist travelling round - very obviously dependent on the goodwill of others.

The best strategy is to draw your horns in, and say nowt. As you can see there are some who cannot countenance the idea that there is some fault to be found in places they can find no fault. They aren't you.

Come home, lick your wounds, or if you're lucky get someone to lick them for you.

Whenever two or more musicians are gathered together - its war story time. Anybody who's done it understands. If you haven't, you dont. That simple.

People like say Martin Carthy and Derek Brimstone are so skilled at receiving hospitatlity - watch them if you can, how they conduct themselves. I have never seen either of them grasp some ruffian by the throat, and shout - shut up! you bloody fool! You are an idiot and your licence to speak should be revoked!

God knows why.....

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Goose Gander
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 05:59 PM

"When have the English, as a national group, ever suffered systematic, enduring, deprivation and oppression?"

Defining people by 'nationality' rather than social class, religion, region, occupation or any other number of possible categories leads (inevitably?) to this sort of nonsense. Define 'English' and provide some sort of context (time, place, etc.) and then maybe someone can answer your question.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 05:38 PM

The Irish are bad singers
Black people are bad singers
Jews are bad singers
The English are bad singers

Surely it must be all of them or none. Which do you believe it is?

I don't think it is all or none, though. Irish, Black and Jewish people can all look back on centuries of serious, often murderous, discrimination and oppression. The phrase not bad for an Irishman would immediately evoke a situation where an Irish person - any Irish person - would have to work ten times as hard as their English counterpart to be treated equally - and that situation's not a fantasy but a historical reality for many thousands of people.

What does not bad for an Englishman evoke - what historical realities does that tap into? When have the English, as a national group, ever suffered systematic, enduring, deprivation and oppression? That's not a rhetorical question - with my historian's hat on, I'm trying to think of examples. I can't think of many.

Calling someone a thick Paddy, even in jest, is offensive - I think we're agreed on that. But I don't think there's any comparison between that and calling someone an uptight Englishman. It's annoying, and it may make you think less of the person doing it, but it doesn't resonate in the same way.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Aeola
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 05:18 PM

comments are often made in jest, and if you know someone reasonably well you know how to say it and what body language to use, as Cap'n B said he read the body language and made his interpretation accordingly. However I'm sure it won't bother him as in the big picture it very rarely happens! Now I put my foot in it and say I make allowances for the Irish. Thing is who is Irish and who is English? We've all got a mixture of various origins that basically we're all the same!

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 04:52 PM

Subject: RE: Irish Travellers in London on Lyric FM -Saturd
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 11:54 AM

No; but the point you made applies to society in general. I lived in London during 'the recent 'Troubles' and I know that the Irish community as a whole bore the brunt of what was happening.
There are angels and devils in all communities, and while I wouldn't want to excuse a Traveller's bad behaviour, nor would I want to draw conclusions about the community as a whole by the acts of a few individuals.
I may have misconstrued your statement; if I have I apologise; put it down to over-sensitivity on my part.
At the present time here in Ireland there is a campaign against Travellers which verges on ethnic cleansing. There are around 30,000 Travellers on the road; around three quarters of them have no legal stopping place. If they camp illegally they can, and are imprisoned and their caravans are confiscated. Many of them who have attempted to settle into houses have been prevented from doing so by irate neighbours. In this town two winters ago a family of 8 who had been made homeless by a caravan fire were prevented from accepting temporary accommodation (uncharacteristically) provided by the council by demonstrating residents who managed to terrorise them back onto the road ("If you hang around here you'll be needing the fire depatment again") in a borrowed holiday caravan (mid-December).
The official halting sites that are provided have only a stand-pipe, one toilet for the whole site and (if they are lucky) one electricity supply. Those with no site have no legal (or otherwise) access to sanitation, clean water, education, and no easy access to health care..... or any of the facilities we take for granted. As a result the average life expectancy of a Traveller is considerably less than that of a settled person.
As has been shown by earlier postings, they have no access to a legal process through which they can attempt to improve the conditions they endure and they are regular victims of racist bigotry.
In short, the conditions that are imposed on them are third-world, justified by pointing out the behaviour of the few to condemn them all.
Pat and I were recipients of Traveller hospitality for over 30 years; we counted many of them as dear friends - please excuse me if I knee-jerk occasionally.
Jim Carroll
PS Cap'n,
Nobody (in these islands anyway) has the right to take a life - that's the law.
so here we have Jim Carroll,making statements about travellers enduring racial bigotry,and campaigns verging on ethnic cleansing,since this is happening in Ireland,is it racist to conclude that it is Irish people who are responsible.,or are English/japanese/chinese, people responsible
I certainly have heard Irish people make derogatory /racist statements about travellers.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Rog Peek
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:20 PM

When I left this thread, there was just Dick and me. When I came back there were 72 postings. I'm amazed. Also strikes me that some people are awfully easily offended.

Rog

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 02:47 PM

"In the view of many Irish people, the English are roughly what the kids of SS officers must be when they visit Israel."
"Perhaps the appropriate response would have been to congratulate her on her fluent English. "
"many people here in Ireland are going to have to change their insular attitudes,the country is changing very fast,a need to examine ingrained prejudices is important,if Ireland is to live with many nationalities in its island."
Some of the comments on this thread are some of the most blatantly racist I have come across on this forum.
We seem to have moved from what I have no doubt whatsoever was an innocent, if somewhat flippant compliment to the Nazi death camps.
1 The lesson for me has been - never criticise certain people's singing - they don't like it.
2 If you complement somebody, make sure you do it in words they understand.
3 Before you crack a joke, make sure you are talking to somebody with a sense of humour.
I'm off for some fresh air - I'll leave you to your Rally
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 12:25 PM

Hehehehe - How did you know me 'ome team, Jim? Oh aye - just remembered, I was wearing me pale blue scarf, Noel Gallager parka and monobrow in the cab:-D

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 10:41 AM

I `ad that Dave Polshaw in my cab the other day. `is face was black as thunder and `e looked well down in the dumps.
I said, "You look a bit iffy. What`s up?"
`e said, "I just experienced the most racist event you could imagine"
I said, "Oh, you just been to that anti-immigration march in town?"
`e said, "Nah, I just seen Chelsea play Manchester City!!"

Whaddam I like??

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 09:41 AM

I don't think its paranoid, Jim. Its just paying attention to whats going on in the audience. god help yer, wherever you are if you don't.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 09:13 AM

And the first prize of this competition goes to:

Perhaps the appropriate response would have been to congratulate her on her fluent English. Paul Burke
Well said! Martin Ryan

In this man's humble opinion this is the funniest contribution so far. [Opened the browser today for the first time after a fortnight of tedious defragmentation of my hard disc, and got a lot of laughter just in the first thread I opened.]

Sing and enjoy
Wilfried

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: MartinRyan
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 09:02 AM

I'm sure she didn't think she was being racist... ;>)

Regards

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: GUEST,beachcomber
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 08:30 AM

I'm quite surprised that this thread , being used in such a way as to give licence to many rascist remarks, has not been deleted ?

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 06:12 AM

The correct response should have been ' yes and your English is not bad for a foreigner '

eric

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Santa
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 06:05 AM

My local river, at one time, was a base for Roman warships protecting the locals from Irish slavers. We shouldn't stop at 800 years if we want to find reason for conflict between the English (or British, as it was at the time) and the Irish. However, one of those taken to be slaves in a later century became the patron saint of Ireland: we may not all be saints but he managed to forgive rather more than most of us have had to put up with.

Now, to more serious matters - what is the difference between a Mick and a Paddy? When is it right to use one rather than the other? (Or equally wrong, OK......)

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: MartinRyan
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 05:01 AM

Paul

Well said!

Mind you... A few days ago I was walking out from the picturesque village of Clarinbridge, here in Galway. The traffic was badly backed up because there was a community market in the town on a lovely sunny day (one of the few we've had this year!). Anyway, a woman stuck in the traffic wound down her car window and, in an Irish accent, addressed me thus: "Excuse me. Do you speak English?"! Now, I was wearing a rather fetching Breton-style jumper at the time - but I'd no beret, never mind onions around my neck! I replied "Jeez, I hope so - me mother'd be fierce disappointed otherwise!".

Regards

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Paul Burke
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 04:50 AM

Perhaps the appropriate response would have been to congratulate her on her fluent English.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 04:49 AM

John from Kemsing

There is no such thing as an Irish or English or Scottish "race".

Just in the same way as there is no Black race in America or no Arab race in Palestine? I think you may know exactly what I mean and are just playing with words but just in case, I suggest you tell the next Scotsman, Irishman or Welshman you meet that they are all the same as the English!

Jim

What delicate, thin-skinned little flowers some of you appear to be.

Why do you say that and to whom are you referring? It is not a question of who takes offence it is a question of where do you draw the line. I'll rephrase my question, for the third time, which one of the following statements is likely to cause offence -

The Irish are bad singers
Black people are bad singers
Jews are bad singers
The English are bad singers

Surely it must be all of them or none. Which do you believe it is?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 04:46 AM

wld,
I said nothing to the woman concerned.
but I thought it worth discussing on this forum.
many people here in Ireland are going to have to change their insular attitudes,the country is changing very fast,a need to examine ingrained prejudices is important,if Ireland is to live with many nationalities in its island.
even though I believe some offence was intended I am not offended,I have had this sort of stuff before,like dont think you can come here and show us how to sing,and thats f##### tan money etc.,a minority[but a recent poll showed 60 percent want tighter controls on immigration]and Fine Gael recently outlined a scheme to repatriate immigrants.
as a matter of fact,I am very happy in Ireland,and find the majority of people friendly kind and couteous.
I dont even bother to read Jim Carrolls contributions.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Mr Red
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:44 AM

Oh come on, lets face it - as Theodore Sturgeon put it nine tenths of everything is crud so nine tenths of nine tenths is probably pretty bad and nine tenths of the dregs must be dire.

And I don't think the Sci Fi author was limiting it to the inanimate. The "troubles" came from somewhere.

Some people carry baggage that is so heavy they want you to carry some.

As the late Dave Hawes (FC & Festival organiser) put it - "You must realise that some people suffer from a very low self-esteem" and the person we both knew who we were talking about is now a manageable person in my company, instead of a right pain in the arse. He is no different - I am.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:21 AM

"In the view of many Irish people, the English are roughly what the kids of SS officers must be when they visit Israel."
Sorry WLD - utter shit. This sums up for me all the dangerous nonsense that this sort of crap gives rise to - How much time have you spent over here - is this really what you feel happens here - if so, why bother coming?
It really is a perfect example of the dangers of taking this crap seriously - it's the equivalent of the man in the John Bull outfit with his sandwich board 'protecting the pound'.
Sure, there are a few nationalist nutters everywhere - take a peep at the last night of the Proms next time they are on - but "many Irish people"...... come on!!!!
If the Cap'n feels the remark was said maliciously he has not made his point very well; he is entitled to take offence; he is not entitled to generalise on behalf of the rest of us, nor is WLD or anybody else. What an insecure world some people seem to live in.
How far do you take this paranoid nonsense?
Not so long ago the Cap'n used the term 'blow-in'; a phrase that is used in banter around regularly here - for those who don't know, it means an outsider who has come to live in the area. Taken seriously it can be highly insulting and hurtful for us 'blow-ins'. Should I take offence at the Cap'n's use of it?
It seems to me that there is a desperate need for a few sense of humour transplants around here.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 05:59 PM

Whilst I sympathise and an empathise with much of what you are saying. You are onto think ear for nowt. Its not the way to bury our differences. the best thing is to say nowt.

In the view of many Irish people, the English are roughly what the kids of SS officers must be when they visit Israel.

Whilst you are not personally responsible for any atrocities. you are not in a good place in history to be reprimanding the Irish for racism.

If you are of the same generation roughly as myself, you heard your relations in the years after the war say, the only good German is a dead one and stuff like that. the time frame is about the same.

You wouldn't have to throw a stick very far on the mudcat site to hit someone who thought Thatcher's handling of the Irish situation was sheer brilliance.

If you are English, this really is a no win, keep your trap shut situation. hard to see how anything we can say will make it better.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 05:14 PM

there is a difference here,between when you know someone reasonably well as Paul knows his wife,or when jim is amongst traveller friends.
whereas if I came up to a complete stranger and said you sing very well for a knacker,thats different.
yes I do believe some offence was intended,and it is not the first time I have encountered it in Ireland,it was said in a patronising offensive way.
but to put it in perspective,perhaps three times in 18 years,probably one per cent of the overall comments.
I have also had the tan comment and said unpleasantly,when I inadvertently pulled out sterling,whereas by contrast when I pulled out euros in England,I was politely told that they couldnt be accepted.
I have not taken offence although I believe offence was intended,because I know there are racists everywhere,there is one on this very forum.
I thought the incident was worthy of discussion,because it has become evident to me,that there are people in Ireland,who think it is only the Irish that have any music.,and who still have a mighty chip on their shoulders about the English.
This attitude is ignorant,considering a sizeable proportion of the reels are scottish,the hornpipes Scottish and even English.
the fact of the matter is no one should walk up to a complete stranger,and say your not bad for a woman,traveller,englishman,japanese.knacker or whatever ]
with respect, I was there.
I turned round and repeated,it to a fellow musician WHO IS irish,her reaction was the same as mine.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 04:11 PM

What delicate, thin-skinned little flowers some of you appear to be.
Racial stereotyping my arse - give us a break.
I have been listening to similar comments about Liverpudlians, Mancunians, Londoners (from both sides of the Thames), Brummies, Northerners, Southerners, - you name it... all of my life; should we wrap ourselves in cotton-wool to the extent that all of these are no go area as well?
I agree totally with Paul's comment, with the rider that I would maybe take offence if I believed that offence was intended - does the Cap'n believe this to be the case?
Yes Cap'n, it was possible for us to joke about 'tinkers' and 'knackers' with Travellers, just as it was for them to joke about 'gorgies' and 'buffers' with us - can never remember either giving or taking offence - but perhaps the Travellers we knew were made of sterner stuff than the hothouse flowers we seem to have here.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 03:59 PM

Dave Polshaw,
             I do believe you are way off the beam when you consider banter or even offensive remarks between people from different countries in the British Isles as "racism". There is no such thing as an Irish or English or Scottish "race". We are better described as nations that have developed due to political and geographical circumstances but we are all still mostly, at the moment, Caucasians of the British Isles.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Banjiman
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 03:54 PM

Dave, agreed, you need to be careful......but I repeat that I would not have been offended in Dick's shoes.

Living in a mixed household (Scottish/ English) we spend a lot of time playing with our national stereotypes and taking the mickey.... no one gets offended.

I can't take the type of banter that Dick is talking about too seriously......not when there is serious racism out there (limiting peoples life chances, propogating violence, wars etc). This is what we should be tackling, not worrying about pretty innocuous remarks probably meant as a joke.

Paul

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 03:48 PM

Often enough when the joke is about stereotypes concerning your own "race".

Most stereotypes have some truth in them, including the flattering ones. The trouble is when "some truth" gets treated as if was a lot more than "some".

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 03:48 PM

I went into my butchers this morning,he asked me how I was,so I replied not bad for an Englishman,he gave me an old fashioned look.
when I told him the story,he thought the remark was out of order.
   anyway from now on, anyone asks me how I am,I shall reply not bad for an Englishman.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 03:15 PM

Whitewash again, Jim. You are avoiding the question. When is it acceptable to use racial stereotyping to get a laugh?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 03:13 PM

You did indeed, Paul. My apologies.

Makes it even more important that people don't use such phrases though doesn't it. Can we be ceratin what the listeners reaction is all the time? Or even who is listening? Can I ask again then. When are such phrases acceptable?

Dave

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 03:10 PM

I really think some of you have gone way over the top on this one.
We have lived here for ten years and have been visiting the area for nearly forty.
We came here right through the worst of the troubles, saw the black flags hanging out in the street when the hunger strikers were dying, and spent time at Mullabawn with that huge monstrosity of a watchtower looming over the town and the British helicopters monitoring the activities of the householders with their surveillance equipment. Never once throughout that time have we ever felt anything other than welcome.
What the Cap'n described was banter - pure and simple.
Personally, I regard such comments (and the freedom I have to make them myself) as an acknowledgment that we are part of the community and would be extremely unhappy if we were left out of it.
I can imagine that if I felt in any way insecure and less than welcome living here I might take offence at what was said - as it is, I feel completely at home.
Who knows, maybe things are different in his part of the world, but I'm afraid the phrase 'fart in a thunderstorm' keeps creeping into my mind!
Must go - have a session to attend in town
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Banjiman
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 02:52 PM

Dave, I was careful what I said.... I said when the person IS not offended....not when you hope they won't be offended. Big difference.

Paul

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 02:35 PM

Bernard Manning used to aim his jokes at people he hoped would not be offended. He often got it wrong. I would say, over and over, if it can offend, someone will take offence at it.

I am not saying that I find it offensive or that offensive material should be banned or any such. That is not the point. Just saying that people should realise that comments that may offend should not be treated lightly.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Banjiman
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 02:21 PM

If the person who it is aimed at is not offended maybe?

As an English person (note the political correctness!) I would not have been offended by the comment made to Dick if it were aimed at me.....I would laugh.

However I wouldn't use the other phrases you list (way) above..... unless I knew the other wouldn't be offended, i.e. I knew the person extremely well.

Choose your own position on this one really.....

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 02:12 PM

BTW - In case anyone had not figured it out the following conclusions can be drawn from the statements I made

1 - Irishmen cannot play concertina
2 - Black men cannot play rock guitar
3 - A Jew cannot play the violin and
4 - Englismen cannot sing.

Every single one of them is not only incorrect but is racial stereotyping with the purpose of getting a cheap laugh.

Can someone tell me please when that is EVER acceptable?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 02:00 PM

Jim

It's the kind of remark that can be heard at our local session virtually every week - from all sides

If I ever turn up at a session and they start to make racist comments I will leave. May make some people think I am either intollerant or oversensitive but I am neither. I just will not put up with racism in any form.

The list you gave surely depends on the circumstances in which the remark is made.

No it doesn't. Each of those comments contains potential to hurt someone.

Remember the Black and White minstrel show? It may have been 'just a bit of fun' for us white middle classes but it was extremely offensive to many blacks.

Where do we draw the line? Easy. NO racism is acceptable however it is meant.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Stu
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 12:38 PM

Spot on Dave.

"Do you tell thick Englishman jokes to get your own back?"

The bodhran player from Danu does on the DVD 'One Night Stand'. It reminded me of the lyric in 'Nothing but the Same Old Story'. Ho well, what goes around comes around and what we hate we become (cliché-tastic). I wondered about what it would have been like to be in the audience in Dublin that night, because if I'd been to see an English band and they made an Irish joke I'd be pretty disappointed.

"If you want to take the remark seriously you could put it down to us "t'ick Paddies" getting our own back for the 800-years worth of crap we've had thrown at us."

That's all right then. Haven't we moved on from all this shite? Not everyone in England thinks those 800 years were really our finest hour. What a truly fucked-up bunch of small-minded little Islanders we all are. I'm off to Ireland next year to pick up new bouzouki - here's hoping I don't bump into the racists. Nothing but happy memories of all my visits so far, so I'm looking forward to it, but I might avoid playing my bouzouki until I get back here, where English can play the Irish music they love so much without fear of comment . . .

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Brian Peters
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 12:38 PM

I think this is more to do with the fact that many other nationalities, particularly our nearest neighbours, perceive the English as being an uncultured people with no regard for our own musical traditions. If someone said this to me I'd take it as a compliment, subject to the tone in which it was said.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 12:35 PM

Cap`n,
       I trust all the responses put your mind at rest that you were being appreciated and congratulated on your performance; a bigger concern is "Who are the loony, politically confused, over-paid, redundant public servants, in need of counselling who decide that every other nationality may be used to describe the status of the respondent on forms, applications and census details except "ENGLISH". One despairs!

p.s. What does one have to do to get your text on here in italics?

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 12:31 PM

Dave,
It's the kind of remark that can be heard at our local session virtually every week - from all sides - I'm sure Dick has lived in Ireland long enough to be aware of that.
The list you gave surely depends on the circumstances in which the remark is made.
If he had overheard it being made behind his back he might have a reason to react like 'Outraged from Ballydehob'; as it is, as far as I'm concerned 'political correctness gone mad or what???'
There was a time when the political situation was such that the remark might well have caused offence - Nowadays there are enough Brits who have settled here in Ireland to make it unnecessary to tip-toe around each other - if not - I'm back to London on the next Ryanair flight.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 12:03 PM

Jim

If you want to take the remark seriously you could put it down to us "t'ick Paddies" getting our own back for the 800-years worth of crap we've had thrown at us.

I'm half Polish. I have never tried to get my own back by telling American jokes. Do you tell thick Englishman jokes to get your own back? Stop it with the whitewash.

Seeing as lots of people seem to be missing the point let me ask a few questions.

Is it OK to say that Noel Hill plays concertina OK for an Irishman?
Is it OK to say Jimi Hendrix was a good guitarist for a black man?
Is it OK to say Yehudi Menuhin plays a mean fiddle for a Jew?
Is it OK to say Dick Miles is a good singer for an Englishman?

Think about it.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Zen
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 08:54 AM

There are ignorant people everywhere. If she wasn't having a joke then I would just brush it off. As an Irishman with an English accent (I was brought up in London) I've had this occasionally from both sides but it says more about the odd individual than the very great majority of English and Irish people generally.

Zen

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: MartinRyan
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 08:03 AM

Ireland has recently had its first case of a complaint of racist treatment of an English worker in the workplace, upheld.

Regards

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 07:58 AM

I am not offended,I am merely pointing out the illogicality,of it being ok to say this to an Englishman,but not to an Irishman.
Jim Carroll,would be the first to condemn[and rightly so],if I turned round to a traveller,and said not bad singing for a traveller,or used the term many Irish people use for travellers ,not bad for a knacker.
now, do you get my point.
Some Irish people need to examine,their attitude to travellers,Englishmen,and groups different to themselves[be it nationality or lifestyle e g travellers].

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: GUEST,plastic cod'ead in the library
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 07:54 AM

I was busking in Galway once and some fella called me a black and tan and said I shouldn't be singing Irish songs if I was an Englishman. I informed him I was actually singing Weel may the keelrow at the time!
"Oh" said he.
"Yes" said I, "I'm singing English songs"

"OK" said he pausing..."Well you shouldnt be singing them here should ya!"

he was a bit mad like

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Mr Red
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 07:33 AM

Now long before the "Irish" (aka Polac etc) joke became fashionable we Blackcountry folk used to tell them about Enoch and Eli who were Blackcountrymen through and through but had no specific geographical affiliations.

And Enoch dain't get the thick end of it allers.
So we wus perlitical korrecked fust. OK?

Mind you in common with the many nearby villages in the UK, Darlaston used to refer to Willenhall in terms of "putting the pig on the wall to see the band go by" - so we wus being ironikul, yea?

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 07:31 AM

could have been worse

could have said, bad even for an Englishman.

I sort of agree with Dick on this one though. theres a statute of limitations on the crimes of the British Empire - and anyway he wasn't personally responsible for Rourkes Drift, Drogheda, the suppression of the Indian Mutiny and Frank Carson's act.

Having said that. i always used to teach my guitar students. Its not a six out of ten instrument. Piano players get six out of ten and they pass an exam and get a cetificate. Make a mistake as a guitarist and everyone will say you're shit. Goes with the territory.

When you are an entertainer - part of the job is that you put your head above the parapet and open youself to criticism. Still its a braver and better thing to try and be than some snotty little excuse for humanity who tries to discomfort you with an untoward remark after you've put in the best performance you can.

hang in there, and bollocks to 'em!

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: MartinRyan
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 07:21 AM

Many years ago, I was at a conference in the North of England during the height of the IRA terrorist campaign. One (mild) symptom of English reaction was the proliferation of "Irish jokes" (and Yes - I do know they've been around a long time!). Anyway, one of the ever polite conference attendees asked me what Irish people did about "these dreadful "Irish" jokes". "They tell them about Kerrymen!" sez I. "And what do the Kerrymen do?" said one. "They put them in books and sell them to Englishmen!", said I.

Now that's slaggin'!

Regards

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 07:06 AM

"It would have been very firmly a case of English racism,"
If you want to take the remark seriously you could put it down to us "t'ick Paddies" getting our own back for the 800-years worth of crap we've had thrown at us.
On the other hand - you could, as Martin suggests, take it as it was almost certainly meant - a bit of 'slaggin'"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Banjiman
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 07:05 AM

Dick,

You can choose to be offended if you like.....or you can choose to just to laugh it off. It really is up to you.

I think the latter is probably more constructive though.

Paul

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: gnu
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 06:15 AM

Whenever someone said I was not a bad "whatever", I took it as a compliment.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: GUEST,Betsy at Work
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 06:09 AM

(Was the gig in Ireland, or does that make any difference?)
"...a woman approached me and said I was not a bad singer for an Englishman ".
Your riposte should have been "I'm not bad between the sheets either - fancy getting your kit off?".

If it was in Ireland, let it drop, there's no mileage in this for an English singer, who
(I understand ) does a fair amount of bookings over there.
I can't believe there was any harm meant, it's just backhanded compliment as someone I think has already said.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 04:52 AM

Exactly, Dick. As I said earlier, if anyone had said that I don't think there would have been one apologist. It would have been very firmly a case of English racism, imperialism or hatred. The sayer of said line would have been rounded upon firmly by many people here and I suspect the thread would have either degenrated into one about 'Bastard Brits' or it would have been closed. I am not going to venture to say why this is.

BTW - For anyone that doesn't know - I was born and bred in England but I am of mixed parentage. Which I guess makes me a true Englishman:-)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 04:38 AM

some of these comments are illogical.
the fact is no one goes up to Christy Moore,or any other irish singer,and says not bad for an Irishman.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: julian morbihan
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 04:27 AM

We now live in southern Brittany and perform with Breton group. We regularly get surprised comments because we are English!

We take them all as compliments. The nicest I received, from a memeber of another dance group, is that I am "un grand breton de Grande Bretagne" :-)

Salut

Julian

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: MartinRyan
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 03:34 AM

For "making a joke", read "slaggin'"! Ranging in level from gentle mockery to barbed, satirical put-down , it's endemic in Ireland. Probably best read as a backhanded compliment, as suggested earlier.

Regards

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 03:15 AM

I would say she was making a joke - it often happens in Ireland.
Sensitivity about remarks on your singing don't bode well for your entering competitions Cap'n!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Mr Red
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 03:15 AM

Cap'n Birdsong

People who want to thank you don't always prepare. It is genuine emotion.

I can remember a lady telling me (after) she hadn't heard my "Kinittershanty" for 6 years. Which from a professional (Folk Animatuer) was amusing and rewarding. We (Lucy was with me at the time) had only written it 3 years before! It told me that the song had a patina way beyond it's youth, which gave us a nice feeling. And I couldn't dis-abuse her.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: melodeonboy
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 02:56 AM

'I had an Irish friend who told me that "You don't need an accent to sing a song"'

Mmmm.... How do you sing a song without an accent?

****************************************************************

"Or perhaps she was thinking that English people often seem to have a considerable resistance to letting the music they have in them get out. Which, I would say, seems to be unfortunately true."

Spot-on, that man!

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Anne Lister
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 02:37 AM

I've frequently been told that I must be Irish, or that there must be Irish in my ancestry, because of my singing and songwriting.   I take these comments as huge compliments. Most bizarrely, having had the conversation to explain that there is in fact no trace of Irish in my family tree, I was told that in that case "in a past life you must have been Irish".
Probably a fair cop, guv ....
But Dick, the only reasonable response to your experience is to assume she just hadn't met many English people and still fewer who were in any way performers of music. It happens!

Anne

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Bert
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 10:27 PM

...I have friends who are not fond of my singing 'their' songs in a faux accent...


I had an Irish friend who told me that "You don't need an accent to sing a song"

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 09:50 PM

Have quoted this before, but it bears repeating.

After one gig, an audient(?) said
"That was almost worth getting out of bed for"

(It was the "Almost" that got me!)

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 06:18 PM

The woman meant ,that she didnt think English people had any music in them.

Or perhaps she was thinking that English people often seem to have a considerable resistance to letting the music they have in them get out. Which, I would say, seems to be unfortunately true.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Gurney
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 06:12 PM

This sounds to me like a failure to apply the old adage;

'Please Engage Brain Before Operating Mouth!'

A system I regularly forget to employ. I only open my mouth to change feet, too.

Your best tactic would have been to thank her whilst laughing helplessly.
Were you perchance singing Irish songs? I have friends who are not fond of my singing 'their' songs in a faux accent. I thought I was entertaining them, but I found I was irritating them!

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: maeve
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 06:09 PM

Consider this then: Perhaps your musical skill and courtesy have helped to revise her former opinion.

We humans can be mighty ignorant, but most of us do like to learn.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 05:41 PM

no,with respect to all contributors.
The woman meant ,that she didnt think English people had any music in them.
I was there, I picked up her body language,the way she looked at me ,etc, etc.
I would never dream of going up to a welsh man,and saying that was not bad singing for a welsh man.
music is international,I have heard fine Japanese musicians playing Irish music,I would never say hey thats great music,considering your Japanese.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 01:54 PM

Not a bad thread for a concertina player.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 01:49 PM

The nature of the song and the style of singing might be relevant here.

After all, it'd be quite reasonable to make a similar comment to an Irish Morris Dancer who had demonstrated that he had mastered a foreign tradition.

But in any case ribbing people in this way is part of the way human beings relate to each other, and it is generally pretty inoffensive, except of course when it is meant to offend, or when it is particularly insensitive.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 01:39 PM

Of course we can allow a little piss taking back. It goes to prove that, while everyone else is over sensitive and insecure about their ethnicity, we are better than them.

Dave
(Running for the door...)

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Folkiedave
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 11:55 AM

On a morris trip to Ireland we had occasion to go to a reception where prospective TD's were also campaigning.

One of the team had just written an article about the Irish political system at the time for a learned journal and the subject came up for discussion by accident.

"You're awfully well-educated for an an Englishman" he was told.

Steve is correct - we can accept a litte pisstaking occasionally. (As a morris dancer you get used to it anyway.

And we (Sheffield City Morris)are back in Kilkenny next weekend.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 11:47 AM

As a nation we English took the piss out of everyone else for centuries. I think we can allow a little leeway on pisstaking back nowadays.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 11:39 AM

Dick's question still stands though and it is perfectly valid -

just wondered how Irish singers might feel,if someone came up to them in England,and said your not a bad singer for someone who is Irish

It seems perfectly acceptable for anyone to take the piss out of the Englishman but when the tables are turned and the same Englishman makes similar remarks about [Insert name of your favourite minority here] then he is acused of racism, sexism, imperialism and too many other-isms to mention.

Would anyone care to set odds on how long the thread would last ad stay civil if I started one saying that Christy Moore wasn't too bad for an Irishman?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Ythanside
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 10:38 AM

A compliment, backhanded and perhaps grudgingly given, but definitely well meant.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Betsy
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 09:32 AM

Probably a nice opening line to engage you in a bit of conversation.
Don't read any deeper than that.

Cheers Betsy

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: kendall
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 09:28 AM

That's a common sign of approval here.

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: GUEST,beachcomber
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 08:54 AM

Captain, is it within the bounds of possibility that the woman in question was merely having " a leg pull" ?

Subject: RE: not bad for an englishman
From: Rog Peek
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 08:52 AM

We regularly go set dancing when we are in Ireland. I have on a number of occasions been told I dance very well for an Englishman. I always take it as a compliment.

Rog

Subject: not bad for an englishman
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 08:48 AM

when I finished a gig last night,sat sep27,a woman approached me and said I was not a bad singer for an Englishman.
just wondered how Irish singers might feel,if someone came up to them in England,and said your not a bad singer for someone who is Irish.it seems aparticular problem for asmall minority of Irish people that they cant accept that English people can be musical,or have a musical tradition.
http://www.dickmiles.com
Dick Miles