BS: The Debates: Members Only

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 09:04 AM

Obama is also proposing a series of tax credits which would help small businesses.

He has proposed "a $3,000 tax credit for every new job that companies create in the United States over the next two years, a small business health tax credit on up to 50 percent of employee premiums paid by employers, and elimination of capital gains taxes on investments in small and start-up businesses."

Source: ABC News 16 Oct 2008.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 09:00 AM

Here's a link to an article about Sarah Palin and her disability funding and advocacy:

http://specialchildren.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ/Ya&sdn=specialchildren&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.autismvox.com%2Fpalin

AutismVox
Palin and the Disability Community
by Kristina Chew, PhD on September 15th, 2008

**

Here's an excerpt from that article:

..."Some parents of children with disabilities are enthusiastic over Gov. Palin's pledge of support, but advocacy on behalf of the disability community has not been "a centerpiece of Ms. Palin's 20-months in office or any of her campaigns for office."

"I never heard Governor Palin say as governor, 'You have an advocate in Juneau,' " said Sonja Kerr, a lawyer specializing in disability law in Anchorage.

A spokeswoman for Palin would not elaborate on her decision to give disability issues prominent placement in her acceptance speech.

John McCain has voted against increasing federal special education funding, and also opposes legislation that would help states move people with disabilities from institutions into community living arrangements.

From a guest post by the directors of the Beach Center on Disability in Kansas:

When a young governor line-item vetoes six appropriations for community disability services or for accessibility modifications to public accommodations, that governor gives us reason to be skeptical about promises and prospective performance. When the appropriations totaled $749,000 in a state that has a huge budget surplus, and when the governor apparently knew at the time that her nephew has autism, that governor gives us special reason to doubt her commitment to people with special needs.

Yes, state funding for "intensive special needs children" in Alaska increased for Fiscal Year 2010. But it is not yet clear exactly who those children are, how many of them are the intended beneficiaries of the appropriation, and precisely what role the governor had in proposing the appropriation or influencing the legislature to appropriate the funds.

In a word, Gov. Palin's record on disability leaves us with our doubts about her promise.

It also prompts us to concentrate on the governor's dismissive mockery of community organizing and its portent for the disability community.

The truth is that community organizing benefits people with disabilities"...

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 08:58 AM

Added to which, it turns out it's unclear whether Joe was talking about a business which just grosses $250,000/ yr. Such a business would not see a tax increase under Obama's plan. According to the Obama campaign, the tax increase would only be levied on businesses which make $250,000 net profit/ yr.

And Joe Wurzelbacher has said that nobody, not even Bill Gates, should pay higher taxes.

So I think we know how reflective his ideas are of middle-class reality.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 08:39 AM

It turns out that Joe the Plumber {Joe Wurzelbacher of Ohio} is not even registered to vote.

And it's being reported that Joe's father Richard Wurzelbacher of Ohio is a contributor to a right wing conservative PAC, his uncle Randy is a McCain supporter, and there is a Joe Wurzelbacher of Ohio who already owns a plumbing business.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1008/The_Joe_file.html?showall


So I guess Joe Wurzelbacher is not just a "regular Joe", after all.

I guess it's back to Joe Sixpack for McCain-Palin.

Frankly, I prefer Joe Biden. He's the real deal.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 08:32 AM

Palin's sister has a son with autism.
The military/teacher connection is the Troops to Teachers program, and it's not without requirements for the 'troop' to meet.

See factcheck.org on the debate.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 08:05 AM

Did he really call her a "Republican", Capt'n??? Man, that's crass...

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: kendall
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 07:58 AM

I thought Mcwar was winning until he made that awful gaff about abortion! The women will get him for that. What can you expect from a man who calls his wife the most disgusting word in the English language?

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 07:31 AM

Word here in Pine Grove Holler is that McCain is gonna dump Ms. Sarah and put Joe the Plumber on the ticket... lol...

But really, these debates have shown one thing and that is when ya' take the a guy who was 5th from the bottom of his class and put him in the ring with the guy who was 1st that the guy 5th from the bottom is gonna get his clock cleaned 100 time outta 100...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 02:11 AM

What was McCain thinking?

-confusing Sarah Palin's child's medical condition. He has Down Syndrome and not autism.

-saying that troops could be teachers without certification. What?! Sure, being in the military automatically means that you can be a good teacher. [snark]

-saying a women's health wasn't important in cases of abortion. McCain lost a ton of women voters with that statement.

And then there was his refusal to repudiate those persons at his rallies who called Obama a terrorist and shouted that he should be killed..Disgraceful!

But imo, the reason why all the television network focus groups-including the Republican's own Fox News- overwhelmingly voted Obama the winner of all three of the presidential debates was more a matter of the difference between the two candidate's tone, body language, and overall image than what they said.

Obama not only had substance, he was cool & consistent under fire. In a word, he was Presidential.

And McCain? He was a nasty, sneering, angry old man, not someone who inspires confidence. And given that we are involved in two wars and a worsening economic crisis, Americans {and the rest of the world} need to feel confident in our President.

Three more weeks. Then Obama/Biden will be elected President and Vice President. And McCain can go back to one of his houses and Palin can go back to Alaska.

Hallelujah!

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Barry Finn
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 01:20 AM

Well Obama is very worthy of the office he's about to occupy. As far as what I saw tonight was a snead, condesending man who attacked plans that sounded workable while offing "I can do this" as his only offering. $5000 won't take me on a walk through the park & all I could think of was he'll tax that too when he gets round to it. Is that all you got? Please say it ain't so John, is that all there is? "I'm not Bush!" Was the best he could do, well he couldn't have fooled very many cause he's got the same preachy false insincere tone in his voice when he's offering up the same Bush policies.
The shame of MaCain is that the best he can do is to try to tear into Obama's personility & policy when he can't really give a clear policy of his own besides "I can do this", "do what" is the next question! After he pushed Obama for an amount on the health fine issue & Obama shot a zero back MaCain just couldn't swallow it & went back again like a brick thick headed ignormaus & tried a repeat that agin fell flat.
I'm happy that the republicans don't have anyone better to offer up than this pair of Miss Leaders, they come all dressed up for the party & end up crashing the play.
What were they thinking?
Barry

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Janie
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 12:59 AM

Good one, Don.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 12:52 AM

I'm confused. How many middle-class working plumbers are in a position to buy a business that nets a quarter of a million per year? And with that kind of net, who would worry much about a small incremental tax?

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 12:49 AM

Joe the Plumber gets it. Joe is often up to his elbows in shit and so is the country.
We now know two Joea. Joe Six Pack by his drunkeness and Joe the Plumber for his butt crack.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Janie
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 12:43 AM

Sawzaw

You may be right.

But I hope not. I am not enamored of Obama, but think both my own paradigm and the very different paradigm out of which McCain operates are dated and unworkable in this first decade of the 21st century. I think Obama is much more capable of leading this country in a workable direction for the present and future than is McCain. I can't quite step out of my own paradigm and embrace Obama with enthusiasm, but I do get that I am a dinosaur.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Sawzaw
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 12:20 AM

The more something looks like a sure thing, the more it is not.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Janie
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 12:11 AM

Obama is clearly smart and as savy as all get-out when it comes to image and presentation. A much better manipulator than is McCain. He seems quite calculating. Not attributes I personally admire but probably very necessary attributes of an effective leader of a diverse country. In some ways, he reminds me of LBJ. I hope he truly has some measure of vision and integrity.

More than that, I hope that he and the Congress that gets elected are on the same page.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: John O'L
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 11:59 PM

Obama was waving, McCain was drowning.

At this stage the presidency is Obama's to lose.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 11:36 PM

McCain had the best line of the night: "I am not George Bush". But Obama was far stronger on what I think--and hope--are far more significant to independents--and that's where the race will be decided. Obama took McCain's health care plan apart before his eyes--especially pointing out that McCain's plan will very likely result in many sick and needy losing coverage as their employers drop their own coverage when the young and healthy flee to cheaper plans, and the employers raise their rates to cover the new situation. I've seen this prediction also in the WSJ.

For some people, the "I'm all right Jack" attitude embraced by McCain is just fine. For anybody concerned about fairness, however, it's abominable--and typical of the Bush/McCain policies--since in many respects they are identical--despite McCain's good line in the debate.

Obama was also very strong in describing how we can create new jobs in the US in the emerging "green economy"--starting with more efficient cars.

And McCain slit his own throat, right on cue--and as predicted-- by dragging Ayers into
the debate. Obama was ready for him. And McCain's negative campaigning was put on display for the whole country to see. Negative campaigning is a loser in attracting independents--and anybody else who thinks.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Alice
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 11:21 PM

MediaCurves independents: Obama 60, McCain 30.

CNN poll from the TV: Obama 58, McCain 31.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Alice
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 11:18 PM

CBS poll of undecideds:

Who won the debate?

Obama 53
McCain 22

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 11:03 PM

How did we get to the point where our most esteemed spokesperson, famous for his eloquence and poise, spouts "gonna hafta" ad infinitum?

Even my friend the gardener and Palin supporter thought it was ridiculous for each of them to be promising all sorts of candy if you vote them in. ("Everybody gets $5,000.00," etc.)

I sure want this to be over.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Amos
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 10:52 PM

Obama came out the winner on points. McCain held hi temper well, and did not freak out, but he was prone to nasty false statements--which Obama would just shake his head and smile at--and he did, indeed, like he had a rod up his ass and strings on his cheeks. He looked stiff and had a forced visage of artificial attention.

His closing remarks were good. Obama's were, as well.

On the specific issues, Obama was consistently presenting positive plans with clear descriptions. McCain, not so much, often resorting to general "good iseas" instead.

I think the consensus will be "A good debate, winner Obama."


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: TIA
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 10:50 PM

BTW - I know Joe the Plumber. NO SHIT!

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: TIA
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 10:49 PM

I just heard McCain talking about pregnant young women "facing such a difficult choice".....

Hmmmmm.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 10:41 PM

Karen showered and got ready to leave for work then walked into the den and sat down to watch. Within about a minute of split screen viewing she asked, "Does McCain have a rod up his ass or what?"

McCain's actions off screen were telling. It started out with Obama a bit quiet and subdued but he soon gained the passion he needed. McCain was certainly on the offense and often offensive. Obama did very well on the repudiation of the Ayers crap and is worth watching if for nothing else his calm response with reason and humor.

McCain had his best debate but it was not strong enough.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 10:30 PM

Why does McCain keep talking about children with autism and saying "Sarah Palin knows about that." Sarah Palin has a child with Down Syndrome who is only months old. Autism is detectable later on, as I understand it. Does she also have a child with autism?

Other than this observation, McCain keeps harping on the same nonsense, and I find it remarkable that in these debates he can sit there across from Obama and lie about Obama's policies and proposals. Does he believe that if he keeps saying these things often enough they will come true?

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 09:17 PM

Oh dear - I better not misunderestimate him I guess but 8 minutes in JM looks like a confused hamster running on three legs.



Brings to mind, with some foreboding, The Germans episode of Fawlty Towers: "How did they ever win?"

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 09:30 PM

"as has been noted, anybody truly strongly against organized religion would be strongly against McCain/ Palin"

Not necessarily. He would definitely be strongly against their specific beliefs and utterances regarding religion (and he is), while in a more general sense he might still support their campaign over Obama's for a host of other reasons that seemed relevant to him...given the fact that religion is simply NOT the ONLY issue in this campaign!

In other words, Ron, if he was an instrument capable of playing only 1 note, then he would have to abide by the fractured sense of logic you are attempting to bring to the discussion. But he's not... ;-) He is an instrument that can play many different notes. And this election is not just about religion. ;-)

To admit this would deprive you of the joy of calling him a hypocrite, and that is why you won't admit it. It would interfere with the fun you have captaining the "Sneers 'r Us" team.

Challenge Rig on a REAL basis, Ron. God knows, there is plenty of real basis on which to challenge him.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 09:29 PM

"...anybody truly strongly against organized religion..."

             A number of people are against organized religion. Personally, I'm against any kind of religion at all. People thinking with clear heads is a better alternative, I think.


               "...why is the poster so stupidly gullible as to regurgitate anything he hears on the radio--rather than thinking it through?"


                  Ron - You keep creating these litte scenarios to demonstrate points the way you wished they had happened. Read the thread--the microphones picked up what Sarah Palin said when she put the heckler down, but it wasn't clear what the heckler was saying.
                        If you want him to have been saying, "Kill him," and that works for you, I'll just have to take your word for it. Frankly, I don't know.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 09:08 PM

9 Oct 2008 1:13 PM: "it was on the radio...."

So then I suppose there are 2 questions arising from that:

1) Exactly why is the poster so stupidly gullible as to regurgitate anything he hears on the radio--rather than thinking it through? Since, as has been pointed out, "Kill him" was obviously not heckling of Gov. Palin. Too bad the poster has sworn off thinking--and not just for Lent.

And of course:

2) Why is the poster such a hypocrite?--since as has been noted, anybody truly strongly against organized religion would be strongly against McCain/ Palin.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 08:49 PM

This month's cartoons are meticulous and took at least 1 to 6 hours each.
The thing is, some yahoo can merely utter some absurdity and the responses to the tripe are off to the races for hours and days.

Visual metaphoric insights and historic symbolism don't seem to have the juice that a good ol boy moron has when engaged in abject yahooism.

I am also dissapointed that so many people find it acceptable to compare apples and oranges by entering debates over what trumps what.

does race trump money, does money trump sex, do racists trump intellectuals...

I am embarrased for the people who do not see the trump debate for the small minded fear and loathing show that it is.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Amos
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 07:50 PM

Actually, the Post publishes a lot of different views, Rig, so your snidity is groundless, as usual.

THe interesting thing is that you had to attack the medium.

Not surprising, I guess, but not exactly highly rational., either.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 07:23 PM

It happened the minute she discovered Michael was gay!

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: heric
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 06:58 PM

No, she changed drastically deliberately and overtly - after first cozying up to Newt Gingrich and the Contract On America when she arrived. She did a 180 after that.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 06:44 PM

The interesting thing about Arianna Huffington (Stassinopoulos in those days) is that when she lived in England, and became quite well known, her politics were what was counted here counted as pretty right-wing.

And I don't think there is any indication that those politics have significantly changed over the years. But in the context of the USA those rightwing politics evidently count as far left...

It's all relative.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 06:15 PM

They wouldn't publish you on the Huffington Post if you didn't say all of those things.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Amos
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 05:33 PM

I say this as a white, former life-long Republican. I say this as the proud father of a Marine. I say this as just another American watching his pension evaporate along with the stock market! I speak as someone who knows it's time to forget party loyalty, ideology and pride and put the country first. I say this as someone happy to be called a fool for going out on a limb and declaring that, 1) Obama will win, and 2) he is going to be amongst the greatest of American presidents.

Obama is our last best chance. He's worth laying it all on the line for.

This is a man who in the age of greed took the high road of community service. This is the good father and husband. This is the humble servant. This is the patient teacher. This is the scholar statesman. This is the man of deep Christian faith.

Good stories about Obama abound; from his personal relationship with his Secret Service agents (he invites them into his home to watch sports, and shoots hoops with them) to the story about how, more than twenty years ago, while standing in the check-in line at an airport, Obama paid a $100 baggage surcharge for a stranger who was broke and stuck. (Obama was virtually penniless himself in those days.) Years later after he became a senator, that stranger recognized Obama's picture and wrote to him to thank him. She received a kindly note back from the senator. (The story only surfaced because the person, who lives in Norway, told a local newspaper after Obama ran for the presidency. The paper published a photograph of this lady proudly displaying Senator Obama's letter.)

Where many leaders are two-faced; publicly kindly but privately feared and/or hated by people closest to them, Obama is consistent in the way he treats people, consistently kind and personally humble. He lives by the code that those who lead must serve. He believes that. He lives it. He lived it long before he was in the public eye.

Obama puts service ahead of ideology. He also knows that to win politically you need to be tough. He can be. He has been. This is a man who does what works, rather than scoring ideological points. In other words he is the quintessential non-ideological pragmatic American. He will (thank God!) disappoint ideologues and purists of the left and the right.

Frank Schaeffer on Huffpo

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 05:19 PM

Actually, Obama did meet with Rupert Murdock a while back... It was at Mudock's request and Murdock asked Obama to appear on Fox and promised that Fox would be fair to him... Obama agreed and did appear on Fox (once)... When it became apparent that Fox had no intere3st in reporting real news and was just blasting away at him and other Dems, Obama decided once was enough...

Hey, would John McCain ever agree to appear on Keith Olberman??? I doubt it very seriously...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 02:50 PM

It wasn't official anything, no citations, no "facts," it was a racist attempt to scare voters. Same with the cartoon response. There are a lot of free agents in the political mix, trying to do their own little Swift Boat operations.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 01:22 PM

They get the snow, but they do seem to be resisting the McCain snow-job.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Amos
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 10:11 AM

Alice:

My condolences on the Snow. Rapaire says it is all the Mormons' fault.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 10:08 AM

SRS - Do you know where the mail out originated. I mean was it official Republican business, or some other group?

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 09:52 AM

A neighbor of mine forwarded a typical Republican slur email against Obama, with the subject line "forward this to everyone you know." I wrote back and asked her why on earth would I want to forward that nonsense, then a few hours later, I pasted the fact check information (it was an email with "quotes" from Obama books and some fabricated pro-Muslim stuff), I was very cordial, and I hit "reply to all." I knew I could dodge most of the s**t in return because my email is blocked, but some guy on that list had a post in my suspect mail this morning.

He said "this is why there's one best candidate" and had attached cartoons. I opened one randomly before I deleted the message, but it couldn't be clearer why Critical Thinking is a skill lost in America today. It portrayed various swarthy dictators alongside a tidy Fox News anchor at his desk, and said something like "name the one party Obama won't meet with." It's amazing how one statement that adds up to the idea that 'if you don't speak to your enemies you'll never be able to negotiate or understand them' can spin into this cartoon, and that more people will think the cartoon is correct than will ever hear the clear statement from Obama. And that Fox is a rational player in the national debate. Geez.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: freda underhill
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 08:05 AM

Obama impressed me from the beginning with his call for politics of unjity, away from left/right dogmas.

I worry that, as he gets more and more popular in the polls, there may be some extremist act in America that targets him, either by physically attacking him or by creating a shocking event that intensifies the politics of fear.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Alice
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 03:52 PM

Now you're making me hungry for a hot bowl of pasta... it is snowing here in Montana, ya know.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 03:48 PM

Well, LH, at least we agree on that!

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 03:46 PM

The Flying Spaghetti Monster does not buy souls. He's above that sort of thing.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 02:36 PM

That WakeUpAmerica blurt is pretty transparent:

"The rumble is"--   Rumble? To me, "rumble" clearly means "Rumor", or even "The rumor I'm trying to start."

The writer is putting into Rezko's mouth what (s)he would greatly like to hear, or what (s)he would greatly like the populace to believe.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 01:58 PM

It's also possible that it was in return for having his soul sold to the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 01:52 PM

Yes, you would expect him to want at least free home-grown vegetables for such an investment.

Obama's political climb and his absence of having done anything else (politically) impresssive to date worries me. Some might call me a racist for that, but whatever.

The Republicans have given us no other choice, however. None. Democrats' turn.