BS: Canada Debates

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Debates
From: Bee
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 03:47 PM

With ya there, gnu.

Like most so-called conservative governments, Harper has spent more money than people are even able to ferret out, depleting our surplus while crying poor and cutting or not adequately funding important programs. All the while barely deigning to tell Canadians what exactly the hell he and his crew of misfits are planning.

Yes, the Liberals have a past strewn with corruption and skimming of the national till, but they generally manage to do a damn good job of keeping track of the rest of the country's money and can be counted on to cough up if the public is grumpy enough about some lack.

The Liberals also don't have quite such a large and well-appointed closet full of currently gagged racists, religious whack-jobs and misogynists, just hangin' out waiting for their rewards when Harper gets a majority.

I don't even think Steven Harper is a bad person, heck, he loves to play the piano, and I imagine he'd be a pretty easy person to be friends with. I have friends with similar personalities and worldviews. But his ideology, his ideas of fairness, justice, how to offer citizens a good happy safe healthy life are ideas that have failed since the word 'conservative' was coined. He ain't no Diefenbaker, either, as my father-in-law would have said when he was still alive.

I'd be happy to see the NDP get a kick at the can, but failing that, I'll be almost as happy to see another minority government, either Liberal or Conservative. And I think that's what we are going to get.

I'd sure damn like to see Peter Mackay get his ass handed to him here, but no matter how many times I vote, Pictou County is not going to put the boots to Elmer's little boy, and by the polls, Louise Loredice and Elizabeth are just going to share out the rest of the votes. Elizabeth May should have run somewhere else, IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Debates
From: gnu
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 01:33 PM

So, Harper tells us Afghanistan costs 8B and today's report says $13B - $18B. Now, I realize $10B is small potaoes to some, but these are Canuck Bs. In any case, when your figures ae from 60% to 225% off, well... I think I would prefer a government that can count.

And, of course, they are still calling it a "war"... assholes... I don't know how they can sleep at night.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Debates
From: bobad
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 07:05 AM

Harper's arts funding cuts are going to bite him in the ass in Quebec and thanks to the BQ, Canada will be saved from a Conservative majority. Hopefully, by the next election, Canadians will still be pissed enough at the money Harper wasted trying for a majority that they'll boot him out.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Debates
From: gnu
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 04:41 AM

Saw some good TV ads by Jack. Quite a few. Between 3:30 and 4:30AM on either the Comedy Network or Discovery... or both maybe.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Debates
From: Bee
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 11:45 PM

Looking like another minority Conservative gov't. b'ys. Harper was looking good for a majority until this week, I thought, but these polls are telling a new story.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20081008/election2008_battleground_poll_081008/20081008?s_name=election2008

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Debates
From: Jim Lad
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 05:38 AM

I will not soon forget just how much money the union took from my pay cheque every two weeks for the NDP whether I liked it or not.
You screw around with my pay cheque, you never get my vote.
Ever!

Actually, I do forget how much it was but the grudge is just as strong as it ever was. (I think what they did is now illegal but I'm not sure)

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Debates
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 06:59 PM

They have no future as Canada's federal governing party, Jim Lad, but they do have an interesting bargaining position to play as spoiler and third party in between the big 2, and they always did have that role. It's a role that often gives them considerable clout in federal policy-making, and that wins them a provincial government now and then also.

It's convenient never to be the one officially IN power, actually. That way you don't get the blame when things go wrong.

That said, they have badly mishandled things for the last 15 or 20 years and have lost much of their former support among blue collar workers. Their decline has been matched by the hard times that have fallen on the union movement in general since the 80's. It all basically began with Reagan's union-busting efforts. The unions have been busted pretty much, as far as I can see.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Debates
From: Jim Lad
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 06:42 PM

Sorry about that.
A little too much delay uch delay!

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Debates
From: Jim Lad
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 06:40 PM

Paul Martin did a good job of leaning to far to the left into NDP territory. That and his unending campaign of going after his retired boss has driven a lot of people away from the Liberal fold.
The real dilemma for the Liberal party is that they have to reclaim parts of their identity while asking the electorate to forget the corruption and divisions within.
Tough job.
You either have to unite with a party of "New ideas" and change your brand a couple of times (which the Conservatives did) or completely fold and start again. (which seems to be their destiny.
The NDP simply has no future. Never did have.
As for Rodney... I don't think the folks in Cape Breton are likely to forget is shenanigans too soon. I was at the bash in Inverness when he won when he won his very first seat. (a little over 10 years ago). The hall was packed and I'll bet he knew more than half of us by name long before he took up politics.
The rest of Nova Scotia may be more forgiving but Capers are a little leery of what happens to folks when they head up to Hamiflax.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Debates
From: Bee
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 06:21 PM

The NDP will slog along, and might even pull it out of the hat one of these days. They are resting their hopes, I suspect, on eventually proving themselves through Provincial governments. Nova Scotia came close to having an NDP gov. last time 'round, and may actually manage it next election. Rodney's not so popular in a lot of sectors - he's no Danny.

Interesting to notice that a lot of news commentary today (CTV and CBC) has been looking at whether Harper (or anyone) really has a grasp on how much of a blow the American economic situation will have on Canada, and Stevie's 'you can't make me talk' attitude is doing him no favours in this matter, because it's impossible to find out just what he thinks, other than his uttering reassuring soundbites.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Debates
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 05:47 PM

I'd be very surprised if the NDP and the Liberals ever join to form a single party. For one thing, it would require one of them giving up their own offical identity and being absorbed into the other. I see no chance of either of them being willing to do so.

The Liberals have always seen themselves as the natural governing party of Canada, and all others as mere upstarts.

The NDP have always seen themselves as a bold new alternative to the old entrenched big boys...the Liberals and Conservatives.

How do you get either one of them to swallow their pride and abandon their delusions of solitary grandeur?

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Debates
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 04:27 PM

The information on the above web site is from 2003, but the historic analysis still holds, and nI feel is informative to the discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Debates
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 04:24 PM

Some reflection on just how the previous Conservatives and Liberals managed Canada's fiscal policies on the attached site.

Remember, when Harper took power, he inherited a Canadian fiscal house that had been brought back by Finance Minister Martin...after a disasterous Mulrooney fiscal period (regardless of the issues related to advertising and gun registry, which is still in place).

It is easier to reduce taxes, if handed a fiscal house in good order. A question, has this surplus Harper was handed, been handled...to cushon Canada against the current global financial bump (especially by our major trading partner, the USA) we will experienc?

http://bowjamesbow.ca/2003/08/22/the-myth-of-the.shtml

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Debates
From: GUEST,bankley
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 04:02 PM

remember the last (Progressive)Conservative majority? 2 terms under Mulroney.... and the one before that under Diefenbaker ?... I rest my case...

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Debates
From: Jim Lad
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 07:08 PM

Oh, I'm pretty sure the NDP and Liberals will have to unite after this election.
Probably within the first year. I had actually predicted that it would happen before this one.

So... Is that a platform under your jumper or are you just happy to see me?

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Debates
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 06:56 PM

Proportional Representation is not all that it is cracked up to be. Canada has far too many parties for that to be an easy soloution, especially if there are parties that are not national in scope. So I would be very careful what I wished for on that score. It is a very complicated measure and does not always yield the desired result.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Debates
From: gnu
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 06:10 PM

Better than the chaff and debris that flailed off the crops latlely.

All I can hope is that we get another minority government until we can find "a" Frank McKenna who will take on the job of real leadership.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Debates
From: GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 06:10 PM

Holy flip! This guy Tavin Dillard is RIGHT ON, man. I betcha he could be maybee a distant realative of ours, eh? He has gotta have some McBride blood flowin' in his vanes. He gets my flippin' vote, eh? You betcha.

- Shane

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Debates
From: Bee
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 06:07 PM

Well, I can see why, gnu, yung feller like that, likes puppies and quiet, approves of being responsible.

"At least git a bigger trailer..."

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Debates
From: Beer
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 06:03 PM

Glad you did that Gnu. This guy is a definite winner.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Debates
From: gnu
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 05:47 PM

I vote for this here guy.
I like puppies.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Debates
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 04:49 PM

A conservative majority will = right wing dictatorship.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Debates
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 04:37 PM

You're screwed anyway, sucker. They all work for the same big controllin' financial interests. The election is just a sideshow to keep you thinkin' your vote means something. Wait and see.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Debates
From: GUEST,Canadian
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 04:34 PM

I hope Harper gets a majority, these other fools are all talk and no substance. If you watch CBC it is so biased against the Conservatives it is like pravda in the USSR. Harper has actually reduced taxes and helped people far more than the Liberals = 2 Billion on gun registration and useless laws, Payoffs to Quebec, Money squandered by Lib J. Stewart etc etc etc... Jack layton is just all mouth and show, he doesn't practise what he preaches at all. The Green Party is laughable....Hope for a Conservative majority, cause if Dion and Jack have their way we are screwed.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Debates
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 04:20 PM

Yeah...that tells you how 35% of the people in a country can get a government they want at the expense of the other 65%.

We need proportional representation.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Debates
From: Bee
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 04:01 PM

Read 'em and weep.

http://www.sfu.ca/~aheard/elections/polls.html

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Debates
From: Bee
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 03:48 PM

Gnu for Citizen of the Month!

I dunno, JimLad - myself, I was kinda insulted, not to mention astonished, to find out from his own lips that the Prime Minister thinks artists are rich fatcats with outlandish and unCanadian goals, which is pretty much what he said previously. I think asking him if Conservatives are barbarians was basically valid.

Some of the programs cut were particularly important to individual artists living outside major centres. What's the point in getting invited to show at a major gallery if neither you nor the gallery can afford to ship the artwork there and back?

......

"I think when ordinary working people come home, turn on the TV and see a gala of a bunch of people, you know, at a rich gala all subsidized by taxpayers claiming their subsidies aren't high enough when they know those subsidies have actually gone up - I'm not sure that's something that resonates with ordinary people," Harper said during a campaign stop in Saskatoon. - Harper

Harper dismissed the furor as "a niche issue for some."

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Debates
From: gnu
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 02:49 PM

I am NUMBER ONE! I was first in line at the advance poll (of course, some Newf beat me to it, being in The Far East... but, them there Newfs have an unfair advantage).

I was asked to witness the EMPTY ballot box being sealed. The lady then said, "We should have a prize for you for being the first one to vote." I asked, "Can you give me another minorty government?", and a cheer went up.... I had not realized that about 50 people had lined up behind me in the previous 15 minutes.

I almost didn't vote! Mum decided she wouldn't bother as she was not feeling well and our incumbent is gonna win by a landslide, hands down, no question, done deal. But, I had to... I hope everyone who can vote and is able to vote does vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Debates
From: Jim Lad
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 02:14 PM

"Are Conservatives Barbarians?"
Not exactly the kind of question a moderator should be asking.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Debates
From: Bee
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 01:49 PM

I was able to watch the CBC livestream on my computer, which I've never done before. Couldn't while on dialup and hadn't thought of it until last night. Having multiple active windows open is a marvel, to me.

I did find the debate interesting, and there were points brought up that will lead me to look for more information - surely that alone makes it useful for a voter.

Also interesting, the brief question period with reporters afterward. I'm still wondering why they were so noticeably more aggressive with Layton.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Debates
From: Beer
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 11:28 AM

I think the interest in this post shows the lack of interest that folks had in watching the debate. I watched the first 20 minutes than turned off the T.V. Even the moderator couldn't control the personal attacks being.
I haven't seen any numbers as yet but I think that most watched the U.S. one. I did for about 5 minutes but Palin's voice turned me off.
Beer (adrien)

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Debates
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 10:51 AM

I watched and nothing really changed my mind, although I was very impressed with Elizabeth May. I do hope she beats Peter MacKay, she would be a very interesting MP I think.
As for the others, I am not a fan of Mr. Layton and I did not think he did well at all. As for Harper and Dionne, well, they were Harper and Dionne.I think these debates are useful up to a point as we see the leaders in a venue in which they must not only the electorate, but each other.
My one disappointment was that Mr. Dionne did not do more to explain his Green Shift. I think peopke have largely misunderstood tjis plan.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Debates
From: Bee
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 08:00 AM

Yer both right.

If a little bitter. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Debates
From: gnu
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 06:18 AM

I assume, as the poll yesterday indicated Harper ahead by a dozen points, someone advised him to say as little as possible.

Don't make no nevermind to me. I vote at noon.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Debates
From: Peace
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 02:17 AM

IMO, they're all fulla sh#t in pre-election debates. They overflow after getting elected. I wish there were free votes in the House. Canada isn't quite as screwed as the US, but we do be getting close.

Subject: BS: Canada Debates
From: Bee
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 09:50 PM

Watching right now. To my surprise, Steven Harper is not doing really well - he's usually a smooth talker, and he's being rather short on answers. Duceppe looking good. Dion better than expected. Layton beatin' on Harper. May doing all right, but seems to have nothing not already put forward by Dion or Layton. Definitely has done her homework, though.