Lyr Req: Tally-Ho the Hounds / Doctor Mack

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Tallyho the hounds (tune - vicar of b
From: Artful Codger
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 10:26 PM

Rhyme consistency isn't a good indicator of antecedence--later versions often clean up sloppy rhymes in original doggerel.

It turns out that the differences in wording between your text and the broadside are actually few, so I want to apologize for what may seem like quibbling. I suppose one reason the transcription struck me as so very different was the wholesale omission of nearly all the original punctuation, explained by having retrofitted the similarly deficient Ninepenny Marl text.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Tallyho the hounds (tune - vicar of bray
From: nutty
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 03:32 AM

I apologise for the error Artful Codger ... I was in a hurry when I made the post and should have checked it more thoroughly.

However, it is still the version that rhymes most consistently , which leads me to believe that it is the original.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Tallyho the hounds (tune - vicar of b
From: Artful Codger
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 06:30 PM

Thanks for the explanation, Malcolm. I'd searched for the words "tally" and "doctor", but somehow scrolled over the "Now Doctor Mack" entry in the results--at least twice! I've noticed my Page Down key not infrequently generates spurious duplicate events.

However, nutty's text is still not consistent with either the Ninepenny Marl version nor the older broadside. Witness just the first line:

nutty:
If Doctor Mack no more employs
The burden of me song, Sir

Ninepenny Marl:
If Doctor Mack no more enjoys the burden of me song, sir

Harding B 12(149):
Now Doctor Mack no more employs
The burthen of my song sir,

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Tallyho the hounds (tune - vicar of bray
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 05:07 PM

John Bell gives 2 versions.
In his Rhymes of Northern Bards (1812) p229 'The Jolly Parson' 'Mack' has morphed into 'Moff'
And in Harker JB's Song Collection p143 it has been localised as 'The Parson of Bywell' (Doctor Mews) 'founded upon facts'. Harker notes 'this version probably came to hand just after 'Rhymes' went to press'.
There were lots of these 'Jolly' parsons in the late 18th/early 19th centuries. Even as late as the 1860s they were still being celebrated in song, thus 'Fine Hunting Day'

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Tallyho the hounds (tune - vicar of bray
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 08:20 PM

There are two editions in the Harding collection; the one Nutty meant was Harding B 12(149), printed by Burbage and Stretton of Nottingham 'between 1797 and 1807', so a little older than those already mentioned.

Always best to provide proper references in order to avoid confusion. This link will take you to the reference page for all:

Doctor Mack / Tally O the hounds

Unfortunately, 'Ninepenny Marl' didn't acknowledge any source on their website; but I rather suspect that it was originally the Holme Valley version. Their transcription reads as if they got it from somebody who learned it off a record and misunderstood some of the words.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Tallyho the hounds (tune - vicar of bray
From: Gurney
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 08:05 PM

Thank you, Snuffy.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Tallyho the hounds (tune - vicar of b
From: Artful Codger
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 07:24 PM

nutty: I'm having trouble making sense of the above; it is unclear which versions you are comparing and whether your text is supposed to represent the "corrupted" or "corrected" (oldest surviving) version.

The dates estimated on the Harding and Firth copies are 1819-1844, and for the Johnson Ballads, 1813-1838; none is as early as you indicated. Did you reference a copy not available online, and different from the ones cited by Steve Gardham?

The broadsides he cited all agree except in very minor ways (the most significant variation being at the end of the second line: "enjoys his con[?]tion through sir" vs. "enjoys himself through life sir"). But the text you provide corresponds to none of these broadsides, and the embolding does not correspond with much consistency to the places where the above text differs from them. Your text contains words which occur in neither Snuffy's version nor any of the broadsides, while words which all versions agree on are emboldened. Can you elucidate?

Here, for comparison, is the text of Harding B 25(1881):


Tally O the Hounds

Here is Doctor Mack no more enjoy the burden of song
I will tell you the life the priest enjoys his con[/]tion through sir,
He laughs and winks at them that drinks to them not bound sir,
He takes his glass and lets it pass and Tally O the hounds sir

It is every day he can afford to dine on roast and boiled sir,
And then as great as any Lord he will drink his favourite toast, sir
It is [his] delight to drink all night his care in punch to drown sir
And in the morn to join the horns and Tally O [the] hounds sir

It happened on St. Herod's day as he was going to mass sir
He heard the music of the horn & saw the beagles pass sir
His book he shut his flock forsook and threw aside his gown sir
Mounted his horse to hunt the fox and tally O the hounds sir

It is every day we go to mass the priest puts on his boots, sir
And if the fox should pass this way he'll follow in pursuit sir
So swift he leaps o'er hedge & ditch to him there is bound sir
And if he can will lead the van and tally O the hounds sir

It was once he had a pair to wed as the fox passed in view, sir
The surplice he drew o'er his head and bid the pair adieu sir,
They both did pray that he might stay for they were not half bound sir,
He swore that night to bed they might and tally O the hounds sir

The priest was never wrong for he had neither friend or harm sir
Both night and morn the sprightly horn it would his senses charm sir
He never robbed or poor distrest his praise I will renown sir
I thought it no crime at any time to tally O the hounds sir

Pitts, Printer wholesale Toy and Marble Warehouse
6 Great St, Andrew street 7 dials

[In the second line, "[/]" indicates a line continuation mid-word with an inadvertent omission of one or more syllables; probably "condition" or "constitution" was intended. Other bracketed bits indicate further obvious omissions, with words supplied from the other broadsides.]

Subject: Lyr Add: DOCTOR MACK (from Bodleian)
From: nutty
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 09:12 AM

The oral tradition has been at work again.

I've just checked the above version against the Harding broadside in the Bodleian which, dated at 1797-1807, is by far the oldest of the broadsides.

You can see the differences below (highlighted in bold print):

DOCTOR MACK

Now Doctor Mack no more employs
  The burden of my song, sir,
I'll [tell] you the life the priest enjoys
  And his constitution strong, sir.
He laughs and winks at those who drinks.
  To them he is not bound, sir.
He'll take a glass and let it pass
  And tally ho the hounds, sir.

CHORUS: Tally ho, tally ho, tally ho the hounds, sir,
He'll take a glass and let it pass
And tally ho the hounds, sir.

It is every day he can afford
  To dine on boil'd and roast, sir,
And then as great as any lord,
  He'll drink his favourite toast, sir.
It's his delight to drink all night
  His care in wine to drown, sir,
And in the morn he'll join the horn
  And tally ho the hounds, sir.—Tally ho, &c.

Now every day he goes to pray,
  The priest puts on his boots, sir,
And if the fox should pass that way,
  He'll follow in pursuit, sir.
So swift o'er hedge and ditch he leaps,
  To them he's not fast bound, sir,
And if he can he'll lead the van
  And tally ho the hounds, sir.—Tally ho, &c.

It happened on St. Stephen's day,
  The priest was gone to prayers [mass?], sir.
He heard the music of the horn.
  He saw bold rennard pass, sir.
He shut his book, the flock forsook,
  He threw aside his gown, sir,
Mounted his horse to hunt the fox,
  And tally ho the hounds, sir.—Tally ho, &c.

Once he had a pair to wed.
  The fox came in full view, sir.
The surplice he threw o'er his head.
  He bid the pair adieu, sir.
They both did pray that he would stay
  For they were not fast bound, sir.
He said that night to bed they might
  And tally ho the hounds, sir.—Tally ho, &c.

So never think this priest did wrong.
  He ne'er did fraud or harm, sir.
His life is worthy of my song.
  He has an honest heart, sir.
He ne'er opprest nor poor distrest,
  Which adds fame to his renown, sir,
But he thought no crime at any time
  To tally ho the hounds, sir.—Tally ho, &c.

Formatting tweaked a bit; punctuation added. –JoeClone 09-Oct-2008.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Tallyho the hounds (tune - vicar of bray
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 01:40 PM

Yes the Bodl has 3 copies
Pitts copy... Firth c.19(116)
             Harding B25(1881)
Catnach copy...Johnson Ballads 282

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Tallyho the hounds (tune - vicar of bray
From: GUEST,Beej
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 12:24 PM

Many thanks to all.
Beej

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Tallyho the hounds (tune - vicar of bray
From: Snuffy
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 09:23 AM

Here it is Gurney, from the Ninepenny Marl website

DOCTOR MACK

If Doctor Mack no more enjoys the burden of me song, sir
I'll tell you the like the priest enjoys is constitution strong, sir
It's his delight to drink all night his cares in punch to drown, sir
And in the morn to view the horn and Tallyho the hounds, sir
And tallyho, and tallyho, and tallyho the hounds sir
And in the morn to view the horn and Tallyho the hounds sir

If every day he can avoid to dine off boil and roast, sir
And then as great as any lord he will drink his favourite toast. Sir
He laughs and winks at them that drinks and them that are not bound, sir
And he lifts his glass and lets it pass to tallyho the hounds, sir
And tallyho, and tallyho, and tallyho the hounds sir
He lifts his glass and lets it pass to tallyho the hounds, sir

And every time he goes to mass the priest puts on his boots, sir
And if a fox that way should chance he will follow in pursuit, sir
He nimbly leaps o'er hedge and ditch to him there are no bounds, sir
And if he can he'll lead the van to tallyho the hounds sir
And tallyho, and tallyho, and tallyho the hounds sir
And if he can he'll lead the van to tallyho the hounds sir

Now it's oft been done since Herod's day as the priest was going to mass, sir
He heard the music of the hounds and he saw bold Reynard pass, sir
He dropped his book his flock forsook he threw away his gown, sir
He mounted his horse to hunt the fox and tallyho the hounds sir
And tallyho, and tallyho, and tallyho the hounds sir
He mounted his horse to hunt the fox and tallyho the hounds sir

Now it's oft indeed a pair to wed bold Reynard chanced to view, sir
So he flung his surplice o'er his head and bad' the pair adieu, sir
They both did pray for him to stay for they were but half-bound, sir
So he said that night to bed they might and tallyho the hounds, sir
And tallyho, and tallyho, and tallyho the hounds sir
So he said that night to bed they might and tallyho the hounds, sir

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Tallyho the hounds (tune - vicar of bray
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 06:16 AM

Okay,
Here's where you can find Doctor Mack.
Fairburn's Everlasting Sonster c1820 p69'Tally Ho the Hounds Sir'
Baring Gould's Songs of the West p10 with music 'Parson Hogg'
Huntington's (Sam Henry's) Songs of the People p29 with music
John Bell's Rhymes of Northern Bards 1812 (1971) p229 'The Jolly Parson'
Very likely on the Bodleian site. Pitts printed it,title Tally Ho the Hounds'
Songs of the Fellpacks...Melbreak Hunt p79
Holme Valley Beagles Hunt Book p12

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Tallyho the hounds (tune - vicar of bray
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 03:49 AM

A different song I know, but there's a hunting parson in The Fox Jumps Over the Parson's Gate, beautifully illustrated in the Randolph Caldecott picture book (1883) which inspired Peter Bellamy's version (1970). Last year I took the liberty of uniting Mr Caldecott's illustrations with Mr Bellamy's singing in a wee video clip on you tube. The Fox Jumps Over the Pason's Gate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Tallyho the hounds (tune - vicar of bray
From: Gurney
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 02:48 AM

Yes, Joe, they used to call them Sqarsons. Somewhere between squire and parson.
Doctor Mack is the one that I remember, but I can't seem to print it from the link!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Tallyho the hounds (tune - vicar of bray
From: Joe_F
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 09:21 PM

Dr. Nimrod, whose orthodox toes
Are seldom withdrawn from the stirrup; -- Macaulay

There does seem to be a tradition about that, perhaps even older than the one about choir boys.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Tallyho the hounds (tune - vicar of bray
From: Snuffy
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 08:44 PM

The Warwickshire harmony group, Ninepenny Marl, sing this and have actually recorded it under the title of Dr Mack.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Tallyho the hounds (tune - vicar of bray
From: Gurney
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 07:51 PM

Hunting Priest's link version is the one I have. It is not, however, the one I remember, because several parts are too flowery.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Tallyho the hounds (tune - vicar of bray
From: BB
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 06:42 PM

It is undoubtedly the one at the link given above for The Hunting Priest, which I think started life as Parson Hogg.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Tallyho the hounds (tune - vicar of bray
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 06:14 PM

You want Doctor Mack. Might have been the Yetties??

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Tallyho the hounds (tune - vicar of bray
From: GUEST,Hunting Priest
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 05:33 PM

Is this what you're after? The Hunting Priest

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Tallyho the hounds (tune - vicar of bray
From: Gurney
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 05:08 PM

I enquired about just this song on this site about three years ago, and someone did post the lyrics. Obviously they didn't make it onto the DT. I'm too busy until tonight to post them, but I will tonight if no one beats me to it.
"And he said that night, to bed they might, and Tally-Ho the Hounds, Sir!"

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Tallyho the hounds (tune - vicar of bray
From: GUEST,beej
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 03:53 PM

Thanks, nutty, but these are not what I had in mind. I would have heard it in a club in Reading about 1970.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Tallyho the hounds (tune - vicar of bray
From: nutty
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 12:39 PM

Welll all go a-hunting today
probably not the one you are wanting

or

Tally ho the hounds

Which might be

No lyrics yet though

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Tallyho the hounds (tune - vicar of bray
From: nutty
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 12:31 PM

WE'LL ALL GO A-HUNTING TODAY .... recorded by Martin Carthy among others

Subject: Lyr Req: Tallyho the hounds (tune - vicar of bray
From: GUEST,beej
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 11:33 AM

Anyone know this song about a vicar obsessed with fox hunting, who would break off mid-service if the hounds came past? All I can remember is his aborting a wedding service with the words "so he said that night to bed they might - and tallyho the hounds sir"