BS: Popular Views on Palin

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 01:22 PM

I suspect that his decision to advise Obama definitely informed his decision to endorse Obama. But his choice to advise an Obama administration rather than McCain administration tells us which of the two candidates he thinks would be the better president.

It's not like there wouldn't be as much personal gain for him in advising a McCain administration as there would be in advising an Obama administration, and I have no doubt that he could have had either position.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 01:29 PM

"...his choice to advise an Obama administration rather than McCain administration tells us which of the two candidates he thinks would be the better president."


                It actually might tell us which campaign made the better offer. In any event, Sarah Palin was the fall-gal, and now the public knows that.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 01:34 PM

Which campaign made the better offer. I expect it's obvious to everyone that this is as much an criticism of McCain as it is of Obama. General Powell, on the other hand, doesn't need a "better offer". He's already turned down the presidency, twice, as well as the vice presidency.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 01:45 PM

There are a number of things that can constitute a "better offer." It wouldn't seem out of character for him to have decided to vote for Obama, but by slamming Sarah Palin in the process, he opened the door for inquiry.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 01:58 PM

He didn't "slam" Sarah Palin. He said that she is a distinguished woman and she deserves to be admired, but that it is his opinion that she is not ready for the presidency. It's a lie to say that Powell "slammed" Palin.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 02:25 PM

Okay, he slammed the McCain/Palin ticket then. He didn't have to do that to simply say he was supporting Obama. He went to great lengths to smear the McCain campaign. What the pay-off will be, we'll find out after January 20th.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 02:41 PM

I don't see how he could possibly have given his reasons for supporting Obama and not his long time good friend, McCain, without pointing out the factors that lead to his making that decision. He made no gratuitous criticisms. He listed all of the factors that lead to his making the decision to support for Obama. He also had a lot of good things to say about McCain as well. He said several times that McCain would be a good president. But after listing the concerns he had about the McCain campaign and McCain's selection for vice president, he showed that the reasons he had for endorsing Obama were greater and more compelling than for McCain, and the reasons for not voting for McCain were greater and more compelling than those for not voting for Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: PoppaGator
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 03:06 PM

Pointing out disagreements with an opponent's stated policies and proposals is not "negative campainging."

Stating one's opinion that a one candidate is less qualified than another is a little closer to what might be deemed "negative," but is pretty nearly unavoidable when discussing a choice between two alternatives.

The abovementioned practices are quite clearly not in the same category as questioning the opponent's patriotism or status as a "real American," insinuating that he is in league with terrorists, and encouraging the kind of mob-mentality hysteria that prompts prople to call out for a lynching.

Yeah, sure, McCain, you say that they're "fringe people" and out of your control. But why is it that "fringe people" on the other end of the political spectrum ~ people you would be very quick to demonize as traitors and communists ~ are not making themselves heard at your opponent's rallies?

For that matter, why are they not in evidence at your public appearances, but only at events where Governor Palin is whipping up anger with her false accusations and inane generalizations?

It's because she is irresponsibly encouraging that kind of mindless and violent response, that's why.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 04:00 PM

Who could blame her after what Powell said about her?

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: Amos
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 04:09 PM

Rig:

That is a really disingenuous statement. One minute's search into things would show you--if you cared to find out--that Sarah Palin has been doing her "stir up the hate" thing for many weeks before Powell announced he was going to endorse Barack Obama.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 04:26 PM

Who could blame her after what Powell said about her? Anybody with a reasonable sense of what was honourable. Compare McCain's public response to Powell's decision to endorse Obama over him.

So it's an insult to say that someone is not equipped to be president? There are an awful lot of people to whom that "insult" applies, and very few to whom it doesn't. Just because she's been drafted to stand in this election doesn't in any way indicate that she isn't one of the countless millions who are not ready to take on the top job. Why should it?

After all, enough people have said it of Obama, and he has, quite correctly, taken it as a criticism to be disproved rather than as an insult that justifies anything and everything in the way of reprisal..

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: PoppaGator
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 04:43 PM

Gen Powell said nothing at all about Gov Palin that could possibly be construed as "hateful," a "smear," or even unfair.

He simply observed that he could not accept the idea that she was well-qualified to ascend to the highest office in the United States of America.

He prefaced his remarks by saying several nice things about her, which was not really necessary. Also, of course, he is hardly the first person to voice this very common (and very plausible) opinion.

Or is it that fact that he's African-American that leads you believe that he's not entitled to have an opinion about the qualifications of Sarah Palin?

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 05:34 PM

"He simply observed that he could not accept the idea that she was well-qualified to ascend to the highest office in the United States of America."



                      But neither is Barack Obama, and Powell endorsed him!

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: Amos
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 06:15 PM

Obama has demonstrated repeatedly that he is personally far more qualified than Ms. Lipstick on a Pitbull.


Powell obviously disagrees with you, and I would suggest he is better qualified to make the call than you are.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 07:35 PM

However when Rig says that in his opinion Obama is not qualified to be president he is not in any way insulting or smearing him. He's just expressing an opinion, which is his right.

It is also Colin Powell's right.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: Amos
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 07:40 PM

Quite right, quite right. Sorry I got peeved.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 07:47 PM

If one only compares the handling of the respective campaigns there is only only logical conclusion that can be drawn and that is that Obama is infinately the better administrator... His campiagn has been consistent, thoughtful and on message...

(Isn't that what CEO's are paid to do, Bobert???)

Well, yeah... And other executives...

His campaign v. Mcain's campaign is "Exhibit A, B, C and D" on why Obama has the better executive experience...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 07:51 PM

Obama had more money than everyone else all the way through. That's the difference!

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: Alice
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 07:59 PM

If the grassroots donors all over the country who gave small contributions preferred what McCain was saying, then McCain would have had that money instead of Obama. Put the responsibility where it belongs. On McCain.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 08:30 PM

Obama got a $50 haircut, $250 suit, $100 shoes, $40 tie, $50 shirt, undies socks and handkerchief $40 and a $700 ring, cuff links and flag pin. Thats way over a thousand bucks.

Now lets think like Bill OReily, Thats 1000 bucks times 400 days of campaigning...thats way more than Palin's paltry clothing budget.


The most telling thing she said was "I'm going to find who said that!" *   Then her face went bitterly twisted in the most creepy troopergate kind of way.


*in response to a reporter quoting a writer for the National Review who rhetoricly used the words stupid and uniformed in a question about some people's reaction to Sarah Palin.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 09:41 PM

"If the grassroots donors all over the country who gave small contributions preferred what McCain was saying,..."


                   Not true! The bawling sheep who follow MoveOn.org have been told not to give money to anyone but Obama, and they always do what they're told. That's the money pit that ran over Hillary Clinton.
                   Some of us are more individualistic than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 10:37 PM

Rig-
(I address you because you are at least receptive of logic)
"He simply observed that he could not accept the idea that she was well-qualified to ascend to the highest office in the United States of America." THAT WAS POWELL'S OPINION

                      But neither is Barack Obama, and Powell endorsed him! THAT IS YOUR OPINION, NOT POWELL'S

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: TIA
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 10:39 PM

"Obama had more money than everyone else all the way through. That's the difference!"

And where did he get that money?

The answer to THAT question is the difference. Oh wait, I forgot....he married a rich heiress.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: Amos
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 11:02 PM

Ya know, Rig, it is quite possible that those who support Obama are not bawling sheep, at all -- just conscientious citizens looking for a better future. It is EVEN possible that the dittoheads who spout Bush's talking points are, likewise, real humans seeking a better future.

Your constant efforts to make less of Obama's accomplishments are tiresome and ungenerous of spirit.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 11:39 PM

Mr. Hypocrite (AKA CEO of Smears R US)--

You really have to learn that just because smearing is the only thing at which you have any expertise, that does not mean that everything anybody else says is a smear.

Some people, in contrast to you, have actual evidence and logic on which to base their attitudes--e.g. there are many reasons, several specified by Gen Powell, to prefer the policies, platform, and person of Obama over those of McCain.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 11:42 PM

By the way, Dick, what could possibly have given you the impression that Rig was "receptive of logic"? (Surely you jest). His record is rather lopsidedly the other way.

And he reinforces it with every post.

Which we will now see shortly.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: Alice
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 11:48 PM

It's hopeless responding to Rig. I need to remind myself that he is a troll and hit the ignore button.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 09:06 AM

The point is, Powell could have endorsed Obama without slamming McCain and Palin. The reason he didn't became apparent the following day when Obama said he was going to be working with Powell if he got elected.

                To an open minded individual, they would detract from the endorsement.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 09:20 AM

The point is, Powell didn't slam anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 10:13 AM

He said McCain was erratic, which is an Obama talking point, and he said Palin wasn't qualified in an attempt to sabotage her candidacy. Then he formally joined up with Obama, so it was obvious to anyone who was paying attention that the fix was in before he went on Meet the Press.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: Alice
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 10:16 AM

Powell said Palin isn't qualified because it is true. She doesn't even understand the role of the vice president as evidenced by her recent statements.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 10:22 AM

Powell didn't say she's unqualified. He said she's not ready. There's a difference there, and I think that distinction is important for understanding Powell's thinking.

I don't recall Powell saying McCain was erratic. Perhaps someone can provide the direct quote.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 10:22 AM

Her description of what the VP does exactly what the constitution says those activities should be.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: Amos
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 11:33 AM

It does not, Rig.

"ABC News' Imtiyaz Delawala and Z. Byron Wolf Report: Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin said in a local interview that the vice president is "in charge of" the U.S. Senate and "can really get in there with the senators and make a lot of good policy changes" – the second time she has claimed a more expansive role for the vice president than the U.S. Constitution outlines.

On Monday while in Colorado, Palin taped an interview with Denver NBC affiliate KUSA. At the end of the interview, she was asked to participate in the station's "Questions from the Third Grade" series, in which candidates have fielded questions from local elementary school students.

"Brandon Garcia wants to know, 'What does the Vice President do?'" Palin was asked.

"That's something that Piper would ask me, as a second grader, also," Palin responded, referencing her seven-year-old daughter.

"A vice president has a really great job because not only are they there to support the president's agenda, they're there like the team member, the teammate to the president," Palin continued. "But also, they're in charge of the United States Senate, so if they want to they can really get in there with the senators and make a lot of good policy changes that will make life better for Brandon and his family and his classroom. And it's a great job and I look forward to having that job."

While the Vice President does serve as president of the Senate, according to the U.S. Constitution, the vice president's role is fairly limited to casting tie-breaking votes.

Article I of the Constitution states that "The Vice President of the United States shall be President of the Senate, but shall have no vote, unless they be equally divided."

In recent years, the role has been largely ceremonial. Vice President Dick Cheney has cast just eight tie-breaking votes during the Bush administration. Most recently in March, Vice President Cheney broke a tie on a procedural motion whether to consider an amendment that would have rolled back tax rates for the alternative minimum tax.

The vice president can also preside over floor debate in the Senate -- a role usually filled by the Senate president pro tempore, and more often done by first-term senators.

Palin was also asked the role of the vice president in her debate earlier this month with Senator Joe Biden, where she cited the vice president's role presiding over the Senate as a way to "exert a bit more authority" to work with the Senate on the president's agenda.

"I'm thankful the Constitution would allow a bit more authority given to the vice president if that vice president so chose to exert it in working with the Senate and making sure that we are supportive of the president's policies and making sure too that our president understands what our strengths are," Palin said in the debate.

When asked to explain her remarks in an interview with Fox News the day after the debate, Plain reiterated her position that overseeing the Senate would give her "a tremendous amount of flexibility and authority" to work with the Senate."...(ABC)

---

The difference between presiding over the administrative procedures of the Senate, usually done by the Senate's presiding pro tem president, and using the Senate to have a lot of influence over the legislative branch, is palpable and obvious. It is a necessary distinction which Palin's ingenuous assertions undermine.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 12:12 PM

I guess it depends on how you read it. Given the fact that the VP would also be championing the administration's agenda with various senators (committee chairs, ranking members), it seems to me that what Palin said is perfectly in order with what a VP is expected to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 01:00 PM

Christ, can you read?

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 01:21 PM

He can read..he just has the answer already worked out, so everything MUST be interpreted to fit the pre-digested view.

Reminds me of the saying: "Give a small boy a hammer, and everything he sees looks like a nail."

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 01:37 PM

He said McCain was erratic, which is an Obama talking point, and he said Palin wasn't qualified in an attempt to sabotage her candidacy.

He might also have said that the world is more than a few thousand years old, and that also would have been seen as controversial by some people.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 01:39 PM

"Christ, can you read?"


            As far as I know, it's unclear whether Christ can read or not!

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 02:17 PM

Alice, Amos Ron and others

While Rig is mostly on the Libertarian side of the fence, he is doing a public service of simply making you think past your first response to a contrary opinion.

The semi secret is Rig is as much for Obama as I am.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: Alice
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 02:36 PM

you are assuming I don't think past my first response to a contrary opinion. You have not seen all the responses I deleted instead of posting.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: Amos
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 08:37 PM

The Russians Sing to Mrs. Palin--a crackup!!



A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: Amos
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 09:18 PM

is now rated unfavorably by just more than half of likely voters, capping her dramatic rise in unpopularity as the presidential campaign has progressed.


Sens. John McCain and Barack Obama are locked in a tight battle for the White House. ABC News and the Washington Post partner in a daily tracking poll, examining the 2008 presidential campaign from now through Election Day.

Other measures continue to help the Democrats as well: As the economic crisis has deepened, Barack Obama has maintained his lead in trust to handle the economy, now 17 points, as well as an 18-point advantage in better understanding voters' problems.

And strong enthusiasm among his supporters is at a new high: 70 percent, nearly double John McCain's, and well above that of any of the presidential candidates in 2000 or 2004.

(ABC News)

6 - 10/23        --        --        50.4        42.5        Obama +7.9 (RCP)

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: Emma B
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 09:30 PM

The view from the UK liberal press

'Fair game?

She's the subject of a porn film and a sex doll has been made in her image. So why hasn't there been a bigger backlash against the misogyny aimed at Sarah Palin'

But as the attacks on her have grown, they have come to seem more and more disturbing.
This is partly because - like many of the sexist attacks on Hillary Clinton during the primaries - they have come from people who would usually consider themselves progressive.
On the liberal Huffington Post website, for instance, one blogger wrote: "Basically, I want to have sex with [Palin] on my Barack Obama sheets while my wife reads from the Constitution." Great.

One person who has been speaking out against the trend is the feminist writer Melissa McEwan, who blogs at Shakesville (other websites that have addressed it are feministing.com and feministe.us).
She's been conducting a "Sarah Palin sexism watch", and says that "the most depressing thing has been to see not just conservatives being misogynist, but progressives too.
People who are ostensibly supposed to be feminist see no problem with saying: 'Well, because I don't agree with her politics, it's OK to use misogyny against her.'"

McEwan defends Palin because she recognises that these attacks have a huge knock-on effect on women in general - as Morgan says: "Even in this case, where I disagree with the politics of the individual, the contempt shown for her, even when it's expressed in the form of a compliment ('I'd like to fuck her'), spills over on to all women."

Taken with the sexist attacks on Clinton, this underlines the fact that any woman entering public life runs the risk of being reduced to the most basic female stereotype that springs to mind - in Clinton's case it was the ball breaker (nutcrackers were produced in her image); in Palin's case, the porn star.

McEwan says she has had emails from women saying: "'You know, I used to think about going into politics, but now I see stuff like this, and I think there's no way.' ... It's basically saying, we're going to require you to have skin so thick that you're going to have to put up with this - and that's a misogyny tax. You're literally being taxed for being a woman."
She has also looked at the treatment of Margaret Thatcher and Geraldine Ferraro during their campaigns and found similar incidents, although "it wasn't so pornified".

from The Guardian, Friday October 24 2008

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 10:44 PM

Emma - I agree, Sarah Palin has demonstrated that she has pretty thick skin. But I've never seen an attack of this nature against a male candidate.
                      I suspect there are male journalists out there who feel very much threatened by a woman who has accomplished as much as Sarah Palin has. They need to either grow up or get out of the business.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 11:08 PM

Within hours of an alleged attack, not days, both John McCain and Sarah Palin telephoned a "coed who claimed yesterday she was sexually attacked by a black Obama supporter" with their sympathy and support.

Sarah called to lend her support and sympathy...

You have to admit that Sarah Palin is sympathetic to crimes against women. She doesn't have to be a feminist to decry sexual violence, even if it is a premeditated case of fraudulent race baiting.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 11:13 PM

"You have to admit that Sarah Palin is sympathetic to crimes against women."


                Well, you're right about that!

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 11:27 PM

Donuel, I'm sorry, but your political "insights" have not been markedly better than Rig's--your paranoia seems to lie in another direction--but as for clear thinking--you're solidly in Rig's category.

You're welcome to take that as a compliment, if you'd like. It wouldn't surprise me.

However if you think Rig is for Obama, you take the cake for naivete. Congratulations.

And Rig has proven the perfect model for "Nowhere Man"--especially "Just sees what he wants to see".

I think he was put on earth just as a gift to Mudcatters who desperately need a way to waste time.

It's only too bad it's so much fun to dismantle what passes for his "arguments", it's addictive.

And we all really have better uses for our time.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 11:27 PM

Well, I liked what McCain was before he started pandering to the right wing of the Republican party in his efforts to get elected. Had he remained as he used to pretend to be, he might still have my support. But he never really was what he once pretended to be, so he really never did flip flop on anything. He's always been a political opportunist and he always will be.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views on Palin
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 11:28 PM

Oops. Posted that to the wrong thread.